Ep. 657: MeatEater Radio Live! The Brothers of Oak Island, A Mexico Check-In, and Invasive Pike

Summary

Podcast Summary: The MeatEater Podcast Episode: Ep. 657: MeatEater Radio Live! The Brothers of Oak Island, A Mexico Check-In, and Invasive Pike
Release Date: January 31, 2025

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Introduction and Overview

In Episode 657 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Stephen Rinella leads a lively live broadcast that delves into three primary topics: an engaging conversation with Rick and Marty Lagina of The Curse of Oak Island, a check-in from a Mexico hunting expedition, and an in-depth discussion on the challenges posed by invasive northern pike in Alaska. The episode is punctuated with humor, insightful discussions, and interactive segments with listeners.

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Interview with Rick and Marty Lagina from Oak Island

Timestamp: [11:06] – [18:16]

Stephen Rinella welcomes Rick and Marty Lagina, the mastermind siblings behind the popular History Channel series The Curse of Oak Island. The conversation begins with the brothers sharing their upbringing in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, highlighting their deep-rooted connection to the outdoors and the historical significance of their family’s pursuits.

• Background and Early Adventures: Marty reminisces, “We spent most of our time outside playing ball... it was just a magical time. Much simpler than today” ([12:13]). The brothers recount childhood endeavors, such as searching for treasure under what they called the “Indian Rock,” igniting their lifelong passion for discovery and exploration.

• Oak Island Operations: Marty emphasizes the multifaceted nature of their work on Oak Island, stating, “It's a pretty active work site” ([13:43]). They discuss their systematic approach to uncovering historical artifacts, combining excavation, archaeological research, metal detecting, and scientific analysis.

• Future Endeavors: When asked about future projects beyond Oak Island, Rick humorously responds, “In 20 years, I'd like to make sure I'm still alive” ([14:06]). He acknowledges that Oak Island remains the primary focus, but both brothers express interest in other historical quests and projects.

• Hunting and Fishing on Oak Island: Stephen inquires about the hunting and fishing potential on Oak Island. Marty mentions, “You'd have a fantastic time” ([16:51]), indicating the island's robust outdoor activities opportunities, though he highlights limitations such as the absence of certain wildlife populations.

• Closing Remarks: The interview concludes with Rinella promoting the brothers' upcoming History Channel show Hunting History. Rick adds, “If you have it passed along to somebody” ([17:56]), showcasing their camaraderie and mutual support within the outdoor and historical exploration communities.

Notable Quotes:

• Marty Lagina: “There are significant historical figures that we believe have played some sort of role in association with the Oak Island mystery” ([15:51]).
• Rick Lagina: “Oak Island's pretty all consuming” ([14:43]).

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Mexico Hunting Expedition Check-In

Timestamp: [18:29] – [31:43]

Stephen Rinella transitions to a live check-in with Randall and Seth, who are deep into a Kuzdeer hunting expedition in Mexico. Their update provides listeners with a firsthand look at the challenges and successes of the hunt.

• Hunting Conditions: Randall describes their experience, mentioning, “We were on a pretty frigid ridge all morning and stomped down to the house to hop on” ([19:10]). The team battles sporadic deer activity, facing fluctuating conditions that make tracking Kuzdeer both exhilarating and unpredictable.

• Successes and Challenges: Seth shares their haul, including four bucks, with Randall noting, “Our're both very happy. They're like, you know, mid-80s, low-90s deer” ([23:37]). However, they also encounter difficulties, such as inconsistent deer sightings and harsh weather, with Randall highlighting the impact of strong winds on their equipment.

• Listener Interactions and Humor: The segment features playful banter and audience interaction, including humorous responses to listener comments about Randall’s appearance and the team's camaraderie. Randall recounts a humorous anecdote about dealing with an overenthusiastic octopus on his fishing gear, showcasing the lighter side of their expedition.

Notable Quotes:

• Randall: “You got to make your eyeballs not water” ([25:44]).
• Seth: “We got a couple of pike that had these signatures as well” ([45:26]).

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Discussion on Invasive Pike with Parker Bradley

Timestamp: [42:03] – [58:20]

The episode features an insightful interview with Parker Bradley, a fisheries biologist from the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, specializing in invasive northern pike management. The discussion centers around the spread, impact, and control measures of northern pike populations in Alaska.

• Pike Introduction and Spread: Parker explains, “Pike are actually native to a majority of Alaska... but they were introduced here to the south central region” ([42:36]). He details the methods of pike introduction and their rapid expansion across over 100 water bodies in the region.

• Research Findings: The conversation delves into Parker’s recent study on pike movement through brackish waters. He describes the use of otolith analysis to trace pike origins, revealing that pike can traverse brackish environments to establish populations in new lakes. Parker states, “We took the otolith from that really large pike and measured the strontium from birth to death” ([43:54]).

• Impact on Salmon: Parker underscores the severe threat pike pose to salmon populations, noting, “There is some tremendously good, well, salmon habitat currently, but it would make for very good pike habitat” ([53:12]). The introduction of pike into salmon-rich environments could devastate native fish species and disrupt ecological balances.

• Control Measures: The discussion covers various pike eradication strategies, including aggressive netting and the use of rotenone, a chemical fish management tool. Parker emphasizes the urgency of implementing these measures to prevent further spread and ecological damage, stating, “This is probably the most devastating aquatic invasive species we have in this region” ([56:37]).

• Policy and Regulation: Parker discusses mandatory catch-and-kill regulations for pike to curb their population growth. He explains, “If you catch a pike, you're required to kill it. You can kill it and toss it back or keep it if you want, but you can't release it alive legally” ([57:38]).

Notable Quotes:

• Parker Bradley: “It's a fish management tool that, you know, is used across the US” ([44:52]).
• Brody Henderson: “Nobody knows, but I don't know if you ever messed with the parachute” ([85:35]).

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Listener Questions and Q&A

Timestamp: [34:24] – [86:07]

Throughout the episode, Stephen Rinella engages with live listener questions, addressing a variety of topics related to hunting, fishing, and outdoor ethics. This segment fosters a sense of community and interaction among the podcast’s audience.

• Family and Filming with Kids: Rinella discusses his approach to featuring his children in hunting videos, emphasizing privacy and consent. He shares, “We just had to make a rule for ourselves so that it wasn't a question all the time about how much exposure to give to our kids” ([35:07]).

• Animal Handling and Ethical Hunting: Questions about cleaning animal remains in the field and ethical considerations of hunting practices are addressed thoughtfully. Rinella offers practical advice, such as using a screwdriver and high-pressure hose for cleaning skulls, reflecting the podcast’s commitment to responsible hunting ([37:05]).

• Trophy Hunting Controversy: Listeners inquire about controversial statements made by other hunters regarding bear hunting. Rinella shares his perspective, highlighting the importance of ethical hunting and the historical context of hunting practices ([61:34]).

• Fishing Techniques and Experiences: The audience engages in discussions about specific fishing methods, with Rinella sharing his experiences and techniques for handling large catches, such as triple tail hunting with traditional hooks ([80:07]).

Notable Quotes:

• Rinella: “We had to make a rule... It's like, we don't show our kids faces on stuff” ([35:07]).
• Mia Hudlow: “It was so good... I just have to boil it” ([84:27]).

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Meat Eater Top Threes: Memorable Fishing Trips

Timestamp: [63:35] – [87:48]

In a spirited segment, Rinella and his co-hosts rank their top three most memorable fishing trips, sharing personal anecdotes and highlighting the diversity of fishing experiences.

• Maggie Hudlow’s Top Trip: Maggie recounts a vibrant fishing expedition in the Gulf of Mexico, detailing the thrill of catching various species like dorado, snapper, and rooster fish. She shares a memorable cooking experience using locally purchased cookware, emphasizing the joy of adventuring with friends and partners ([74:02]).

• Brody Henderson’s Top Trip: Brody highlights a particularly fruitful fishing trip to Fort Peck during Memorial Day weekend, where exceptional catches of halibut, salmon, Pacific cod, and lingcod made it one of his best experiences. He reflects on the camaraderie and success of the trip ([76:04]).

• Stephen Rinella’s Top Trip: Rinella narrates a unique fishing experience with Tlingit fishermen in Craig, Alaska, using traditional "knock" hooks. He describes the effectiveness of these hooks in capturing large halibut and the cultural significance of the fishing techniques used ([77:03]).

Notable Quotes:

• Maggie Hudlow: “Redfish on the half shell... when you cook them up like that, it hardens up” ([65:42]).
• Brody Henderson: “It was just like one of the best fishing trips I've ever been on” ([76:04]).

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Conclusion and Announcements

Timestamp: [86:07] – [87:48]

As the episode wraps up, Stephen Rinella announces an upcoming mini tour alongside Randall, where they will deliver free lectures on the mountain man era at various college campuses. The tour includes stops at Montana State University, University of Montana, and University of Wyoming, encouraging listeners to register and attend.

Rinella also reiterates the availability of his new book, Meat Eaters American History: The Mountain Men 1806-1840, and promotes listener engagement through future live events and interactions.

Notable Quotes:

• Martin Lagina: “Watch new episodes of The Curse of Oak Island on History Channel Tuesday nights” ([17:56]).
• Stephen Rinella: “Me and Randall are going on a mini tour... telling the story of the mountain men” ([86:27]).

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Conclusion

Episode 657 of The MeatEater Podcast offers a rich tapestry of discussions that blend historical exploration, contemporary hunting and fishing experiences, and critical environmental issues. Through engaging interviews, listener interactions, and personal anecdotes, Stephen Rinella provides a comprehensive and entertaining look into the world of outdoor enthusiasts and conservationists. Whether delving into the mysteries of Oak Island, sharing the highs and lows of a Mexico hunting trip, or addressing the ecological threats of invasive pike, this episode stands out as a testament to the podcast's commitment to educating and entertaining its audience.

Transcript

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, American history buffs. Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times, violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, this new Mountain man edition about the beaver skin trade is available for pre order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History the Mountain Men 1806-1840 by me, Stephen Rella.

[Phil]

Smell us now, lady.

[Stephen Rinella]

Welcome to Meat Eater Trivia. Meat Eater Podcast. Good Lord. It's Media Radio Live. Welcome here to the show, 11am Mountain Time. Do I need to say all this, Phil? Do people tell people what time it is? They like, they don't know.

[Phil]

I mean, that's in the script every week. I mean, they could look at the clock, but it's just kind of a way to mark place and time here.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Here's where it gets tricky, Phil, is that they're looking at a clock because they're watching on a computer or the phone.

[Phil]

Okay. So you just think it's. It's redundant.

[Stephen Rinella]

It's 11:00am this is a discussion.

[Phil]

Thank you.

[Stephen Rinella]

January 30th, meteor headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. I'm your host today, Stephen Rinello. Today I'm joined by Brody Henderson and Maggie Hudlow. And are you. How are you not here exactly? I'm not here. Corey is not. If someone thinks Corey Calkins is here, he's not.

[Brody Henderson]

He's kind of not here. Like Corinne is often not.

[Stephen Rinella]

He's not here. He's not here. He's not in the room on today's show. We got a couple things coming up. So on today's show, we're going to chat with Rick and Marty Lagina from History Channels the Curse of Oak island for a couple reasons. One, they're fellow Michiganders. That's my home state. Two, they're from the cool part of Michigan which is the Upper Peninsula. And three, I'm riding on their shirt tails. You know you hear coattails and shirt tails. I don't know which is the better supposed to do.

[Phil]

Do shirts have tails?

[Brody Henderson]

Coattail? Well sure they do.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. The kind. Yeah. They used to man Dress shirts though. Yeah. I always try to find those shirts that don't have that exaggerated.

[Brody Henderson]

I like the straight ones then when.

[Stephen Rinella]

You'Re wearing them if it's too straight. It looks goofy though. Yeah. Be careful. We're gonna talk to those fellers because I'm riding on their shirt tails on the History Channel. And so you know they get the. You know what it is? It's like the opposite. Like you think like the other night I was at. I went to a stand up show. Right. So. And I went to see. Me and my boy went to see Kevin Hart and Kevin Hart, like Kevin Hart don't come out first. Do you follow me?

[Brody Henderson]

They have all the opening act.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Other dudes come out and they get everybody kind of fluffed up and then Kevin Hart comes out. Yeah. So this is the opposite where like these guys get the audience. They're like the Kevin Hart and then I'm like the follow up dude. I'm like the dude. The support, it's terrible. So we're gonna talk to them about that. We're also gonna get into this. Most January's I missed out one time because of COVID Every January we go down to hunt Kuzdeer in old Mexico. This year at the last second I, I had, I had to bail because my little boy had to get a knee surgery and he was going to be laid up and is laid up so I couldn't go. So we're going to check in with the fellas that did make it down to Mexico chasing Kuzdier so I could find out what all happened. They were not feeding me any information, I think out of respect because I couldn't be there. So they wanted, they didn't want to make me jealous. So I'm kind of in the dark about how that all went. And we're going to talk to Parker Bradley from Alaska Fish and Game about some interesting pike behavior. We've touched on this a couple times in the past but like northern pike being in, I mean all over the damn country. Northern pike live in Lakes and rivers that they're not native to. And they're.

[Brody Henderson]

They're circumpolar, aren't they?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Scoffier. In a scoffier's cookbook, they have pike recipes.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

For the European pike, for the pike they catch over in France. Anyhow, they've always been a little bit magical and like, well, how in the hell they get here? And we're going to talk about a freakish behavioral attribute that these northern pike are exhibiting in Alaska that helps explain some of the mystery about how those sons of are jumping from one drainage to the next. So we're going to do that. Then we're going to talk about three most memorable fishing trips with photo backup that I'm supposed to say, but before we get to all that, what have you guys been up to lately? But not you, Corey, you ain't here.

[Brody Henderson]

Maggie, you go first.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Well, first off, I didn't know it was your birthday. Steve.

[Stephen Rinella]

It's not.

[Phil]

It's not. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. So our mutual friend Spencer Newhart told everyone who's watching the show to say happy birthday to you. But I'm pretty sure your birthday is in two weeks. Two weeks away.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, I'll be halfway to 102 in two weeks.

[Phil]

But you've got dozens of people wishing you happy birthday in the chat right now.

[Stephen Rinella]

That's nice, dude. Yeah, nice.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Well, happy early birthday.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, thank you. I don't know how old you are, but, dude, at this point, birthdays, they.

[Brody Henderson]

Just don't mean anything.

[Stephen Rinella]

No, my favorite restaurant in Bozeman is Wasabi. You know, the dudes that come in and they juggle their spatulas and stuff.

[Phil]

Oh, my kids love it there.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, I was there the other night for my little boy's birthday, and I was like, man, I'm going to come here on my birthday. I'm going to call all my friends. And then about 20 minutes later, I'm like, no, I'm not.

[Maggie Hudlow]

That's my birthday. I'm like, ooh, I'm gonna get some oysters. I'm gonna get some crabs. I'm gonna have a party. And then I'm like, then I have to share all this delicious food. I think it's gonna be a feast for about four.

[Stephen Rinella]

There you go. So anyways, what's everybody up to?

[Maggie Hudlow]

I just moved into a new house that my boyfriend and I have been building over the last nine months. It's awesome.

[Stephen Rinella]

This is your shattered kneecap, hockey playing sheet, guiding boyfriend it is. How long you guys been together?

[Maggie Hudlow]

About three years. But we've known each other pretty much our whole lives.

[Stephen Rinella]

You think you'll wind up getting married? Are you, like, against marriage?

[Maggie Hudlow]

I'm not against it. People just keep asking me about it. I'm like, hey, we. We just built a house. Like, we don't got money for a big party. Right.

[Parker Bradley]

You guys got your cart.

[Stephen Rinella]

Head of your horse, though, too.

[Brody Henderson]

That's a big move to, like, now buy and build a house together when you're not hitching.

[Stephen Rinella]

What's his last name?

[Maggie Hudlow]

Olson.

[Stephen Rinella]

You can switch out.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Hell, no. I already told him that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Switch out, man. My wife never switched out. It kills me. Do you really want to not switch out?

[Maggie Hudlow]

No, there's.

[Stephen Rinella]

I told my daughter, never switch out.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Look on the Internet and see how many other Maggie Hudlows there are.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, they can. People can track you down.

[Maggie Hudlow]

There's not other Maggie Hudlows.

[Stephen Rinella]

And if you become a Maggie.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Maggie Hudlow, there's a pile of Maggie Olsens out there. Yeah, I'm. No, I'll never switch.

[Stephen Rinella]

I sit both sides. Like I said, I wish my wife would, but I told my daughter, never do that.

[Maggie Hudlow]

See?

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, you gotta hang on to your name. So it's like, just. It's very, you know, depends.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Yeah. So, you know, one day we'll probably have a big, awesome party and get hitched. But, no, I'll never change my name. Something I gotta. I gotta hang on to.

[Stephen Rinella]

Let's transition to Brody. Brody. You're married?

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Long time. Yeah. Actually, that plays into what I've been up to lately. This is like. This time of year is kind of hard for me. I get Mild Seasonal Affective Disorder. Whatever.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, my dog has that.

[Brody Henderson]

And my wife says I get real cranky.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. There's no dragons to slay right now.

[Brody Henderson]

No. But we're, like, emerging from that. It's starting. Days are getting a little longer, you know, so there'll be cool stuff to do soon. So I haven't been up to too much other than, like. Like, plan. I don't know if you do this, but I feel like it's important when you got kids. Like, you really got to kind of plan your year out, like, hunt and fishing wise.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Because, you know, with those kids, there's always, like, conflicting things going on.

[Stephen Rinella]

Sure.

[Brody Henderson]

So I've been mapping stuff out on the calendar, which is always fun.

[Stephen Rinella]

That's good. Yeah.

[Maggie Hudlow]

So I don't have kids to worry about, planning about.

[Stephen Rinella]

But you don't have a husband either.

[Brody Henderson]

No.

[Maggie Hudlow]

My sister explained it as happily financially entangled with three dogs.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, that's good.

[Maggie Hudlow]

That's my situation.

[Stephen Rinella]

The house you guys fixed up, was it a mess or was it.

[Maggie Hudlow]

No, we built it.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, I thought you meant you redid one.

[Maggie Hudlow]

No, you guys built one from scratch.

[Stephen Rinella]

That's cool.

[Maggie Hudlow]

It's basically a big ass shop with a living quarters attached to it.

[Stephen Rinella]

So show Brody your palm. Is it callous hammer?

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, no.

[Maggie Hudlow]

A little bit. I've spent a lot of time. We did concrete floors and some concrete countertops and it was like a cheaper option and man, I spent a lot of time sand and concrete and staining it.

[Stephen Rinella]

That's good.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Lot of, a lot of time on the concrete. But it looks really nice. We got a nice big walnut butcher block in the center of the kitchen. And the garage has five huge doors, two pull throughs.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh really?

[Maggie Hudlow]

Yeah, it's a giant garage.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, that's great.

[Maggie Hudlow]

We gotta have places to put the boats and all the fun stuff. And now we're just trying to organize our piles of garbage that we got.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, congratulations.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Thanks.

[Stephen Rinella]

You know the James gang, when they used to rob. This is legend. I don't know if it's true. When they used to rob trains, they'd check your hands. If you had calluses, they let you.

[Brody Henderson]

Slide cuz they were dandies.

[Stephen Rinella]

If you didn't have calluses, you were getting robbed.

[Maggie Hudlow]

I get the most calluses in the summer from rowing the drift boat.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, if I saw those boys coming, I'd be scratching. How's that, Phil?

[Phil]

That was some lovely banter you guys. You knocked it out of the park.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay, are we ready to switch over?

[Phil]

Let's do it.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay, do we got Rick and Marty or Rick and Marty here? We're here. First off, man, tell me a little bit. Give me a quick snapshot of growing up in the up. Did you guys, had you guys family been up there a long time? Was, were they newcomers or how'd that come about?

[Rick Lagina]

Well, first. Wait, wait. I gotta wish you a happy birthday.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, thank you.

[Rick Lagina]

Me and everybody else who's confused.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, go ahead, Rick.

[Marty Lagina]

Well, it was, you know, kind of like, you know what you do in your life, you're outside a lot, you know, you've got your friends, you, you engage in whatever activity you want to do. It was sports and in the woods and fishing and. And a little bit of hunting and going out with our uncles and yeah, it was just a magical time. Much simpler than today. And like I said, you spent most of your time outside playing ball. And just having a good old time. It was the up.

[Stephen Rinella]

What's the first example you guys can think of when you go back to when you were little boys? What's the first example of you guys setting out to go try to find a lost something or another, or like to, like, make a discovery?

[Rick Lagina]

That's an easy one. We were looking for a treasure under what we called the. Maybe not politically acceptable anymore, but under the Indian Rock, which was this rock out in the woods that had a band around it. And all the young boys in the neighborhood spent, Rick, I don't know, two or three summers trying to move this rock because we were sure there was treasure underneath. We still want to go back and move that thing.

[Stephen Rinella]

Do you guys have a. Do you have a checklist of, like, when you work, if you work at Oak island concludes. Do you have a. Do you have a. What's next?

[Marty Lagina]

We. We always have a plan moving forward, but, you know, it's pretty fluid up there. You know, you find something, you. You move off. There's, it's, it's multifaceted search. So you have the Money Pit work the excavations with Billy. You've got archaeological work going on. You've got Gary Drayton, metal detecting. So, you know, when, when something's found, you kind of skew that direction and follow that lead. And then, of course, you've got the lab and the application of science. So it's, It's a. You're never. It's not a. It's a pretty active work site.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, I, that, that, that's great, and I appreciate. But what I, What I meant was, if you picture yourself, if you imagine 10 years down the road, 20 years down the road, whatever, do you have, like, the next place or the next quest that you guys to get involved in? You know, I mean, do you have a list of, like, okay, when. When we're done, when our work here is done, we need to move on to whatever.

[Rick Lagina]

Well, first of all, in 20 years, I'd like to make sure I'm still alive. That would be number one as far as the goals go. But we. I don't think we've really addressed that very well, have we, Rick? The Oak island has been all consuming, and it keeps throwing stuff at us right about the time we're, you know, ready to maybe say, boy, this is. This is it. It'll throw something, a curveball in terms of an artifact or something. So I don't think we've planned very well past that. We're interested in other things, and we've got involved in other quests that other people are taking the lead on. But beyond that, Oak Island's pretty all, all consuming.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Have. What are some of the latest, tell people about some of the latest things you guys have found out there that keeps you, that keeps you wanting to keep going. Big Brother.

[Marty Lagina]

Well, for me it's, you know, it's kind of close association, Steve, to what, what you're doing with your new show. You know, following history. I think the research component and the historical associations we have made to date through the finds of the artifacts and the, the digging in the Money Pit and the application of science, but it's really the research that is coming to fore. There's a treasure hunting component and there's a, the historical research component, which you're all about. And like, just the other day I got coming to believe that there's, we're on a real national treasure, you know, the national treasure movie. We're on a real national treasure hunt there. There are significant historical figures that we believe have played some sort of role in association with the Oak island mystery. So it's all, to me, it's big component is the history, but certainly there's a fascinating treasure hunt too.

[Stephen Rinella]

Now, I gotta ask as well, what. I know you guys. So you guys got some land there. What's the, what's the, what's your vibe on the hunting and fishing potential out there on Oak Island? Should, should I be out there hitting it or what?

[Rick Lagina]

Offshore? I think you could be hitting it. Yeah. There's all kinds of fishing offshore on the island. Not so much.

[Stephen Rinella]

Not so, so you don't, there's not like a resident whatever, just not like a resident deer population or a lot of.

[Rick Lagina]

Yeah, no, no, no, there's a resident deer population. Yeah. I was thinking fishing. There aren't any streams or anything, unless you're a big eel fisherman, because there's lots of those in the swamp.

[Stephen Rinella]

No, I like the eels, for sure. So you guys see some game when you're out there? When you're all done, like you're saying that I should be out there, I can go out there and hunt?

[Rick Lagina]

I think so.

[Marty Lagina]

Rick, I, I, I can tell you what you can do is, you know, come, come on up, you know, be a part of the treasure hunt and do a podcast from up there. But I can, I can easily affirm to you that. And you've probably been there in New Brunswick and in Newfoundland.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Marty Lagina]

You'd have a fantastic time.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, no, I've hunted up, I've hunted up there before. One time, the last time I hunted up in New Brunswick, I left. I kind of did a questionable move or my wife was like, pretty pregnant and I drove up there and we were hunting and I got a call basically saying, turn around and come back or, or don't come back. And so I had to cut my, I had to cut my trip short. But now that all that's behind me, I'd like to come out there and check it out and I would definitely like to come up and see the island and meet you guys for real and, and talk about the home state. So I appreciate you guys coming on, man. Everybody is checking out. Watch new episodes of the Curse of Oak island on History Channel Tuesday nights at 9 Eastern, 8 Central. And then, and then if you, if you got it in, you stay on because we're premiering a new show there as well that follows the curse of Oak island called Hunting History. So come for the Curse of Oak island and stay for Hunting History on History Channel. Boys, thanks for taking the time to come on the show, man. I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Rick Lagina]

That's great.

[Stephen Rinella]

All right, Just want to tell you.

[Marty Lagina]

That our nephews, Peter David and Daniel Fernetti, are big fans.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, and your show, tell them I said thanks and shoot over an address and we'll send them up some books and stuff if you, if you got, if you can pass them along to somebody. Yeah, I'd love to. All right, guys, thanks so much, man. Good luck with your. Good luck with your hunt. Good luck with your show.

[Marty Lagina]

Good luck with yours.

[Stephen Rinella]

All right, take it easy. See you. Take care. Bye. Bye. All right, Mexico Coups hunt. Check in with Randall and Seth. That's what we got. Randall and Seth. Where the hell they coming from?

[Phil]

Why don't we ask them?

[Stephen Rinella]

Are you guys live or is this like a trick?

[Brody Henderson]

Mexico.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, oh, so you are there.

[Randall]

Aloha, mi amigos. Rojo grande.

[Stephen Rinella]

All right, was the. Okay, was, were they rotten hard? I don't even know where to begin. Were you seeing like hard, rotten grab ass action?

[Seth]

Yes and no.

[Stephen Rinella]

I recognize that fireplace. How do you guys got such a good connection by that fireplace?

[Seth]

Oh, there's a starlight Starlink now.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, I see. It's just as warm in there as normal.

[Randall]

We had snow on the ground this.

[Seth]

Morning, so it snowed last night and was like 22 degrees or something.

[Randall]

Yeah, Seth and I were on a pretty, pretty frigid ridge all morning and stomped down to the house to hop on. So we're enjoying this fire and some fresh cafe.

[Stephen Rinella]

Got it so. So hard ass, grab ass, rud action or.

[Randall]

No, there's a lot of chasing. Giannis saw a buck he thinks unsuccessfully, uh, breed a doe. But yeah, the bucks that we've seen have all been pretty active. It's been sporadic, though. We're seeing like a ton of action on one hillside and then we go back the next day and zero deer. So it's kind of been hide and seek a little bit, but yeah.

[Seth]

And we've been seeing does pretty frequently that don't have any bucks with them.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, got it, got it. And how many bucks you guys gotten down there?

[Seth]

We got four so far. Yanni's. Today's our last day and Yanni is the only one that still needs to get one. So he's out there right now. He's looking for mucho grande, though.

[Randall]

Yeah, Yanni's. Yanni's prepared to eat the tag if he doesn't see the right deer. So he and the rest of the crew are all hunting hard right now. We sit by the fire.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, it's good to see you guys. I miss you guys. I've been dominating the question here, so I'm gonna let Brody and Maggie ask you a bunch of questions.

[Brody Henderson]

Did you get some good ones?

[Seth]

Yeah. So Peter Howe from Sig is down here, which is cool because we're getting to play with a bunch of new Sig products, like test that out. But he. He shot a giant.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, nice. Nice.

[Seth]

It's definitely the biggest one I've seen come off of this ranch. Randall. Randall's about to show you right here.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, now Steve's real jealous.

[Stephen Rinella]

I know you folks watching from home, you need to understand that you're looking at like, what's. It's like a desert whitetail. Like a mini whitetail, 90 pound deer.

[Randall]

And he's got a. He's got a split G2 on the one side, so he looks like a muley on that side.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep. But that. That runs that way because we've gotten a couple of them there like that with that same split.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Finger probably roll over dead if I just said that. That runs that way down there.

[Randall]

Yeah. He's a pretty impressive buck. And he's. He's got a little bit of palmation and he's got. Some of the tines are bladed. So that was Cal. Shot a real nice one. He saw it the first night and killed it two days later.

[Stephen Rinella]

There you go.

[Randall]

That's cow's buck.

[Seth]

Now go bladed out.

[Stephen Rinella]

That is. Yeah. Go back to that big one. I'm Gonna come back to Cal's, but go back to that big one for a minute. Was that like, did you guys find him and then refind him? And then refind him? Was it like a holy, there he is kind of moment?

[Randall]

Well, we, Seth and Giannis and I were on the same ridge, but maybe a mile down, and we would just listen to the whole thing on the radio. But I think they glassed him up. He had a doe that he was trying to lock down and seemed to be right out in the open. So they, Pete and Cal made a big stock on him and wrapped around the face and ended up getting a shot. But that. That's kind of the only big buck that's really made himself visible for a significant period of time. I think Cal's buck is just sort of like, you know, appeared. He was bedded the first night when you guys saw him.

[Seth]

Yeah, we saw. We spotted cow's buck on the first evening. It wasn't even like our first hunt day. We just happened to get down here and have enough time to run up on the hill and do some glass. And we and Cal almost killed him on the first evening, but he caught up with them, what, two days later.

[Randall]

And yeah, a lot of the bucks, most of the bucks that were like, I saw 10 or 12 bucks yesterday. All of them. All them were chasing, but just no big bucks. And the big bucks that we've seen, a lot of them are really broken. And that seems to be, we've heard, like this year, for whatever reason, a lot of the big bucks are broken.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hmm.

[Randall]

Which doesn't bother me, but some people.

[Seth]

Me neither.

[Randall]

Yeah. So then Seth and I both got deer on back to back days, I think Tuesday and Wednesday maybe.

[Seth]

Yep.

[Randall]

Or something like that. And that was fantastic.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Ours are not nearly as impressive, but we're both very happy. They're like, you know, mid-80s, low-90s deer. And yeah, I my shot at like 2, 250 yards. He was chasing a doe with another smaller buck, and they were just kind of pinballing around, and he popped up and got a shot at him. And then Seth had a real search for his buck.

[Seth]

Yeah, I spotted my buck and made a move on him, lost him like you typically do down here, and popped up on this little bump to try to get a good bandage of this hillside where he was. And he ended up betting with a Doe about 120 yards from where I was. And I actually had to. In order to shoot him. I had to leave my bump that I was on and make a Big loop around and shoot them at like 300 yards where I could actually see them.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, got it. I'm so jealous right now. You tell how jealous.

[Randall]

Well, the, I mean, the, the big story this week, I think has been the wind. Everybody's been telling me that it's usually rather calm here, but we've been getting gusts up to like 30 and pretty steady 15, 10 to 15 mile an hour winds all week. So there have been some long cold days. And the, the SIG stabilized binoculars have really been a lifesaver because. And I hadn't. I'd messed around with them like out of the truck or out of the house, but I really hadn't had them out in these kind of conditions. And you throw those things on the tripod, and even if it's blowing your tripod around, your image is like crystal clear. So I've. I've oftentimes like, just had to take my regular binos down and throw up the stabilized ones. Just for the wind factor.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. When it's blowing. Yeah. Then the next thing you got to figure out is how to make your eyeballs not water.

[Randall]

Oh, the corners of my eyes are chafed badly. A lot of tears, a lot of sunscreen, a lot of wind. It's not a good recipe for my optical health.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Well, the stabilized binos are cool. What other fun SIG stuff have you guys been messing around with down there?

[Randall]

Well, there's one. There's one item that we're told not.

[Seth]

Not to speak of.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

What happens down in Mexico stays in Mexico for the late, great Toby Keith, but pretty neat stuff. We, we also have used the. The range finding binos.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

Are those the. The kilo tens, maybe something.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

I forget all the names and. But yeah, those, those are pretty amazing for this because they have the. They have the wind calculation dialed in. Oh, really?

[Stephen Rinella]

Huh.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Wow.

[Randall]

Yeah. When we're sitting out there, glass and stuff and range and stuff, you can plug in like a 10 mile an hour value and it'll give you your correction in. In minutes of angle, so. Or mills. But we're shooting both the guns we have are, are shooting in massive angles. So that's been pretty fun to see. And, and like check that against the dope on your phone.

[Seth]

And yeah, there's been a lot of chatter about wind calls.

[Randall]

Yeah. This week, a lot of chatter about wind calls. I was very grateful to shoot my deer at 225 yards or whatever it was because I don't think I would have really wanted to stretch it out very Far in those conditions.

[Stephen Rinella]

I got. I got two more questions. When I go down there, you always find that the vaqueros. The vaqueros. Vaqueros, bucqueros. No matter what deer you bring back, they tell you that. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not him.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Has that been happening?

[Randall]

Well, I haven't talked with them much. Cal has been our primary liaison to the L. His Spanish is actually remarkable.

[Stephen Rinella]

No, he does good.

[Randall]

Although he's.

[Stephen Rinella]

He.

[Randall]

He doesn't do, like, the performative accent that a lot of people do when they speak a foreign language. It just sounds like cow. He speaks in the same cadence with just different words. But we did have a couple reports of bucks that the cowboys had seen and, you know, had the hills that they'd seen them on. And there was even a set of sheds from this year near the house that we're looking for that buck. But we have not been able to turn up any of the. The famous cowboy bucks.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, got it. Here's my other question. Oh, go ahead.

[Randall]

No, no, I was gonna say the cat. I think the vaquero's cat is having a real field day whenever we bring back a deer. It's like fighting us for little strips of hide and meat. And that's kind of also been our primary mode of entertainment, is the cat's increasingly aggressive behavior around any sort of meat.

[Stephen Rinella]

Randall, I need to Share with you 2 comments that have come in. I'm going to build you up, and I'm going to bring you down.

[Randall]

Sure.

[Stephen Rinella]

There's a guy that says you look like Jim Harrison, followed up by a guy that says you look homeless. So I don't know.

[Randall]

I take your picture.

[Brody Henderson]

Did Jim Harrison ever spend time as a homeless person?

[Stephen Rinella]

If you're gonna look like Harrison, you need to take a beer bottle and gouge one eyes so it doesn't work Right. Which is what happened to him.

[Randall]

Yeah, she. She said it looked like a Civil War reenactor in the photo, and so that I took that to mean I need to cut my hair.

[Stephen Rinella]

I got another question for you. You know how I couldn't go because my boy had to have knee surgery. Well, thanks for asking how he's doing.

[Randall]

Oh, I. I was communicating with Giannis that we were getting updates.

[Seth]

We were. We were all sitting around the table the other night, and we. Yanni, you were texting me Steve, and.

[Randall]

Then Yanni was like, we're asking for updates through our.

[Seth]

Yeah, we're. We're all asking how. How Maddie was doing.

[Stephen Rinella]

Funny, because none of Those. They were all unfulfilled.

[Randall]

I did. I did text Katie. I did text Katie to see how the surgery went.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, you went straight to my. You went straight to my. You went straight to my woman.

[Randall]

You're a busy man.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. All right, that's cool. That's cool. Anybody else?

[Brody Henderson]

Nah, I've heard enough.

[Stephen Rinella]

How long do you guys want to talk for? I don't know. We're getting bored.

[Randall]

Oh, we did. We did want to mention that Yesterday, Giannis ate 11 or 12 burritos.

[Brody Henderson]

Sounds about right.

[Randall]

It's a record. So we got bologna sandwiches the day before, and he ate his at 11 and then spent the rest of the day talking about how he could have had more than one bologna sandwich. So the next day, he took six burritos for lunch, and he gave me one, but he had two at breakfast and I think three at dinner. Yeah, so that would. Yeah, that would probably make maybe. Yeah, that's like 10 or 11. So anyway, the tortillas have been thin, so Giannis consumed 20 some tortillas yesterday.

[Stephen Rinella]

Randall, we got another guy saying you just look like you're from Ohio.

[Randall]

No, that's true. That I. I'll take that as a high compliment. Thank you, Chase. That's lovely.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, you know what about being from Ohio. I don't know if you ever read the right stuff, but there's something steely about Ohio dudes. It's like what you want when you're trying to man a spaceship.

[Randall]

Yep.

[Stephen Rinella]

They wind up leaning. They wind up leaning into Ohio.

[Randall]

Tell people that there's something. There's. There's a rich soil.

[Stephen Rinella]

All right, well, good luck. Tell Yanni I said good luck. Wish I could be there. In all seriousness, miss you guys. Terrible. Yeah, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[Randall]

We'll see you very soon.

[Stephen Rinella]

All right, thanks, buddy. See you guys.

[Randall]

Via Condios.

[Corey Calkins]

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[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, American history buffs, Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellas like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, this new Mountain man edition about the beaver skin trade is available for pre order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History the Mountain Men 1806-1840 by me, Stephen Ranella. Was that long enough? How are we doing on we, Steve?

[Phil]

You are. You're doing incredible.

[Stephen Rinella]

We're on schedule, right?

[Phil]

On schedule, yes.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, so now we take time for listener feedback. That's right, dude. I'm mostly. No, no, not to hack on the boys there, but I'm. I'm mostly excited about the Northern pike deal.

[Phil]

Oh, he's coming up.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, Yeah, I don't want. I'm saying I want to jump to it, but let's do some. How you been handling this part, the lister feedback?

[Phil]

Well, the idea is throughout the show, people can ask questions. In the live chat. I bookmark the ones I think are good or could open up some interesting conversations. So far, we haven't gotten a lot of questions, guys. This might be Steve's last time here and who knows, you should feel lucky. So if you have questions For Steve, get him in here right now because I don't know when he's going to.

[Stephen Rinella]

Start coming down here all the time.

[Brody Henderson]

Might be your last time. It's like you're dying or something.

[Phil]

Well, you're just a.

[Brody Henderson]

You're, you're a busy guy.

[Stephen Rinella]

I'm going to start coming here all the time.

[Phil]

We would love that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah.

[Phil]

People. People want to see it. Let's see. Let's start with a lighter one. Mogor is asking question for Steve.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hi.

[Phil]

When you're not participating in trivia or Radio Live, how closely do you follow the events during your travels? Do you keep up with the shows by watching or listening to them? I have a feeling I know the answer to this question, but I just thought, you know, people, the people would like to know.

[Stephen Rinella]

I listen to a lot of stuff. I watch bits of a lot of stuff, but I mostly talk to everybody. That's what I like to do, is talk to everybody.

[Phil]

Probably a better use of your time. Question for Steve from John. Did the stolen cooler of frozen fish ever get resolved?

[Stephen Rinella]

No, it's just gone, dude.

[Phil]

Okay.

[Stephen Rinella]

Someone's licking their lips on that fish. Or they were. But no, no.

[Brody Henderson]

It's going on a couple years now, isn't it?

[Stephen Rinella]

Do you know what's hilarious? Remember we were talking about. So I shouldn't, I shouldn't say this about my kid, but my older kid, my older boy, when we were talking about. Remember we were talking about getting that lie detector test down here? So he kind of got in a bunch. He got a bunch of trouble. Okay. He was telling I shouldn't air in his laundry like this, but he was telling his mom and dad a fib.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay?

[Stephen Rinella]

So his mom fibs to get the truth. She says, I'm taking you down to the office because your dad got that lie detector. So you tell me right now what happened. And he's just like, he just lets it all out. And just the other night, we, like, finally. It came up. We finally said, you know, there is no lie detector. He's like, you sons of.

[Brody Henderson]

That's good parenting there. I like it.

[Stephen Rinella]

So my wife's like, lies to get him to tell the truth, which is smart, you know?

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, yeah.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Good on you, Katie.

[Phil]

Let's see here.

[Stephen Rinella]

You said you're giving softballs. What's an example of a hard ball?

[Phil]

This isn't a hard ball, but this one actually could. Could open up to some discussion from Kyle. What do y'all do about cleaning brain matter from a skull in the field to transport to or from CWD areas across county.

[Stephen Rinella]

Stir it up with a screwdriver. Stir it up super good with a screwdriver. Then put a high pressure hose in.

[Brody Henderson]

There, give it a few good shakes.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, yeah, you give it a couple shakes.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Phil]

There you go.

[Stephen Rinella]

It's. It's like, you know, if you stick with it, you can get that brain pan pretty clean.

[Phil]

Right on. This could.

[Stephen Rinella]

What's a real hard question?

[Phil]

We haven't gotten a really. A really hard one yet, but if you guys want to speak to this, because I don't think you ever really have, and I think you guys could. Could talk thoughtfully about it. Question for Steven Brody. Y'all post a lot of pictures of hunting, fishing with your kids, which is great. Have you ever thought about making videos featuring your kids? My kids love watching other kids hunting videos, man.

[Stephen Rinella]

I think about it all the time. I'd love to do it, but me and my wife made a decision. Like, if you notice, if you ever see pictures of my kids, we just had to find a. We had to find, like, we had to make a rule for ourselves so that it wasn't a question all the time about how much exposure to give to our kids. And we eventually made a rule. It seems arbitrary, but it works for us. Like, we don't show our kids faces on stuff. It seems goofy, but, like, wound up making it simple. Do you know what I mean? And the other day, I even asked my. I had a picture of my kids when they were babies, and I said to my wife, like, hey, do you mind if I post this thing when the kids are babies? I mean, you know, they don't look like that anymore. And she said, well, no, because we have an agreement.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. You've done a good job of sticking to it.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, I have, but it hurts because I'd love to be able to make videos with them, but I don't want to. Like, I. I don't. I don't want to drag them into something, you know? Like, it's just hard for me. I need them to get old enough to make the decision.

[Brody Henderson]

There's also that, like, there's one thing. Like making a TV show or whatever is one thing, but then, like, just making, like, videos.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

For yourself. Like, we do that all the time, but, like, making a show is hard, and it gets in the way. Like, it would. Not that you couldn't do it, but.

[Maggie Hudlow]

There'S a great episode of Tony hunting bear with his daughter Austin, if you want to check that out.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Hey, listen, I don't have any Like I have, I'm all for it. And a big thing that informed us on it is years ago we had to have like the FBI got involved. Like years ago we had something happen that alarmed us and they had to go after a dude and like really went after a guy. Hard about saying a comment, you know, about our kids. And then from then on that changed our whole attitude, man. It was like someone like an animal rights dude. And so it just, it just spooked us, you know.

[Maggie Hudlow]

I bet.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, yeah, I mean I'd love to see us make a show with some kids hunting in it. Be great if we could do that at some point.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. I just didn't like the thought of some like some animal rights freak or whoever targeting my kids because of something that they know about me is just like upsetting. And at times I'm just like a little, I feel a little like maybe overexposed in that way.

[Maggie Hudlow]

No, that's totally reasonable.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Cool.

[Phil]

We'll do one more here and save some more for the end of the show. Sam's asking, is there any animal you were excited to hunt and eat but were let down when you finally tried it or any animal that you thought that wasn't really worth it after you tried it to.

[Stephen Rinella]

Made it name?

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, you know, remember you guys shot those, you guys shot a bunch of those big old caribou several years ago. Kenyon and Duran were there.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

I was a little disappointed in the shanks with the. Because you think about how many miles are in those shanks and holy. They take a long time to break down.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Multi day braids.

[Brody Henderson]

And just the meat in general, it's not that it's bad, it's just you stack it up against like elk or it's just not.

[Stephen Rinella]

No, I'd rather, I'd way rather eat mule deer than Caribbean.

[Marty Lagina]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

I'll tell you one of the ones that was most disappointing to me is a while back we flayed. I really wish we had. We flayed a bunch of shovel nose sturgeon.

[Brody Henderson]

I remember you talking about that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah. Because one, the yield is so low. So you kind of get this cool looking fish. You clean them and you don't have. And then what you do have doesn't taste that good. I've never laid a finger on it. Now it just pop them off.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

You know, just a real disappointment because the, the, the, the low yield was already enough to turn me off. But then the taste was.

[Brody Henderson]

Another one for me was jackrabbits. They're Tough. They're.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. I don't agree.

[Brody Henderson]

No, no.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, but go ahead. Each his own. You can have dumb opinions. Free country. Cool.

[Phil]

If you want to get to the. The pike, we've got Parker waiting in the. In the green room.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah, bro, do you want to handle this interview?

[Brody Henderson]

Sure.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Brody's an invasive pike expert. He used to live at an invasive pike pond.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, yeah. Love those things.

[Stephen Rinella]

Sweet.

[Brody Henderson]

There's Parker.

[Seth]

Yep.

[Phil]

There's Parker.

[Brody Henderson]

Hey, Parker. How's it going?

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey.

[Parker Bradley]

Good. How are y'all doing?

[Brody Henderson]

Great. Is it cold up there?

[Parker Bradley]

You know, it's the coldest day we've had this winter so far. About minus 15.

[Brody Henderson]

Where are you at right now?

[Parker Bradley]

I'm in Palmer, so about an hour north of Anchorage.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep, yep, yep. Cool. So we'll get to the pike in a second, but you want to give us a rundown of what you do for Fish and Game? Like what, your job?

[Parker Bradley]

Yeah, sure. So I'm a fisheries biologist with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, and my job is primarily focused on invasive species in this region that's primarily invasive northern pike, but that could be, you know, we've dealt with the host of other. Several species that have turned up here that shouldn't be here, and we handle that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Cool.

[Brody Henderson]

So.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, Brody, while you're interviewing him, can you ask if he knows my brother Danny?

[Brody Henderson]

So there's this guy Danny Bolton in Anchorage.

[Stephen Rinella]

No.

[Brody Henderson]

Danny Bolton. There's this guy Danny Renella. You know him down in Anchorage?

[Parker Bradley]

I do.

[Brody Henderson]

Did you know these guys? Knew each other?

[Stephen Rinella]

Maybe I knew they knew each other, but I'm not positive they knew each other.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, he's.

[Stephen Rinella]

My brother's a fisheries biologist. I thought maybe you guys ran to each other. Continue your interview.

[Parker Bradley]

Yeah, yeah. There's a small world in the fisheries biology realm up here.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yep.

[Brody Henderson]

So this study came out. Some people may have seen it in the news. That's where I found it. And we had talked about it, like, in the past, recently here at Media. But can you kind of give, like, the basic rundown of what this study found and how they. They. They were able to come to the. The conclusion that they came to?

[Parker Bradley]

Yeah, yeah, you bet. So quick background for your listeners. Pike are actually native to a majority of Alaska, more than northern and western regions, but they were introduced here to the south central region. Waters that flow into Cook Inlet, Gulf of Alaska. They were introduced by a person in the 1950s, and they've spread to, you know, over 100 water bodies in this region since then. But, you know, so we're trying to keep tabs on where these pike are spreading in the region. And we've been doing eradication projects on the Kena Peninsula.

[Brody Henderson]

What does that entail? Like, how are you trying to get rid of them? Because, like, I used to live in an area in Colorado where they were doing that. They're trying to get rid of them on the Yampa River. And they'd knock them back, then they'd come back. They'd knock them back, then they'd come back. It's like just an ongoing. They can never seem to, like, eradicate them.

[Parker Bradley]

Right. So it's. It's kind of tough to get over that hump. A lot of what we do is aggressive netting, and that's called suppression projects, where we just try to kill as many as we can. But if we actually want to eradicate them, then we often go and use a chemical called rotenone. Yeah, It's a fish management tool that, you know, is used across the US and that's what we've done heavily on the Kena to eradicate them from there. But netting is often very common. And like you're saying, it's tough to get ahead of them.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. So. So back. Back to the study.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. I saw a question just pop up. How are the pikes spreading?

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Stephen Rinella]

Someone asked that. He's in luck.

[Brody Henderson]

We're about to find out.

[Parker Bradley]

So there's. They're spreading. Well, really two mechanisms. Now that they're in this region, people still move them around. We have documentation of that. And then, you know, once they're in an open system, they're free to swim where they want. Right. And so one thing that we thought was some of these rivers flowing into Cook Inlet, which is brackish water, we thought that was most likely.

[Brody Henderson]

That's a nice one.

[Parker Bradley]

Well, we had some pike that showed up in a remote place on the Kenai Peninsula that it.

[Stephen Rinella]

We.

[Parker Bradley]

We don't know how they got there. Didn't make sense for someone to go through an extensive effort to get them to this remote place. But it has a very short connection to Cook Inlet. And so one thing that we did, we wanted to explore if we're going to invest money into getting rid of these pike from this drainage, we want to know how they got there and provide. Prevent that from happening again. So we did some sampling in this. This lake, Vogel Lake, and we caught one really large female along with a handful of other smaller pike. And one thing that's a really neat technology in the world of fisheries is the otolith of the fish. So that's the inner ear bone, calcified structure. Biologists use that often for aging fish. There's a good picture of it. There's. But what it also can be used for, it's basically a chemical fingerprint of the water that that fish has lived in throughout its life. So you can cut that Olith in half, and it. And it grows, you know, on the outside, calcium building up on the outside as it grows. If you cut that in half, you expose the core when that fish was born, and then the edge represents when you killed that fish. So we can send this otolith to a lab, we have one in Fairbanks that does this. They look at the chemical composition of that otolith from birth to death. And what's interesting is water bodies often have unique chemical signatures, specifically with strontium isotopes. And that's what we're looking at. So the marine environment has a pretty particular strontium isotope signature. And so we took the Olaf from that really large pike and measured the strontium from birth to death of that fish. And what we found is that the center of that otolith where that fish was born did not match the water that we caught it in. Then about two years of age, it had a signature signature consistent with being in a marine environment. And then the signature matched the water that we caught that fish in. So basically what that told us is that fish came from somewhere else, swam through the brackish water, and then ended up in this Vogel Lake here where we caught it. And once we kind of had proof of that occurring, we got suspicious of this happening in other places. For example, in Anchorage, we have a couple of lakes where we thought this might have occurred. And indeed, we did catch a couple of pike that had these signatures as well. And so that's what this study was kind of based on. These three different populations that we think got established by pike swimming through the marine environment. Mostly just brackish water, not full salt water.

[Stephen Rinella]

So. So they're able to make those trips. That's what you just kind of answered my question as you finished your last response. But they're able to make those trips just staying in brackish water. Like, like, like how long do you think one could last an open salt? Or do you think that would kill it?

[Parker Bradley]

So I think that would kill it. We. A couple of years ago, we did a salinity trial where we actually put pike and known salinity totes and measured to see how long. And so we tested various gradients and our highest concentration we tested was about 28 parts per thousand. For reference, about 35 is considered fully Marine. And at 28, they lived maybe like seven or eight hours on average. They can't tolerate fully marine waters for very long. But that lower brackish concentration, around 7 or 10. There's actually a pike population in the Baltic Sea that they just live there, and that's at about seven parts per thousand. So the fact that they can kind of traverse through some of this low brackish water is not that surprising. But you know, Cook Inlet, it's a pretty hostile environment. We have some of the largest tides in the world, like 30 foot tide swings, very glacially turbid. We got big glacial rivers that are pumping into it. So visibility is poor, really strong current. So it's, you know, not what you would think of when you think of where pike would typically live. So it's, you know, they can live just probably for a little bit in this environment.

[Brody Henderson]

Are they traveling? Are you able to determine like how far they're traveling? Like, does this only happen where like two river estuaries are pretty close together or are they distance?

[Parker Bradley]

We can't tell exactly where they came from. The most likely source is the sit in a river. And if that's the case, you know, Vogel Lake, where one of these studies was based on, that's about 18 miles. If the fish was to swim perfectly straight, you know, from Anchorage, if it made the trip from this is sitting up, that's like 15 miles, so not really that far. And we think a lot of this movement's likely limited to the upper part of Cook Inlet to where we have these, you know, brackish waters. As you move south, it gets pretty fully marine pretty quick. So I think this is just happening kind of in upper Cook Inlet region.

[Stephen Rinella]

Years ago I was talking to a researcher who was looking at, trying to explore the question of how bad could the Burmese python situation get. So they would take Burmese pythons and move north of the Florida Everglades and make these enclosures just to see like what. At what point would they not be able to survive anymore? And they were kind of able to draw sort of a sort of line saying what they projected to be the extent of the spread for, for cl, for, for temp average temperature purposes. Right. When you guys look at this, now that you're understanding that these pike are moving not just from people moving them in buckets, but they're moving on their own into unexpected areas. Do you have a sense of like, of how bad it could get. Or do you think you already looking at the extent of what they could possibly do for. As they spread into these waters? And I think within that, I think we didn't cover on just. I don't mean to lay too much on you at once, but you should probably speak to what this could mean for salmon, right? Because that's what we're really talking about here, right?

[Parker Bradley]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we. We know how bad it can get, but it all depends really on the specific habitat of a location. You know, if you're a pike angler, you know what pike habitat looks like, you know, where you target them. And in the Susitna Valley, we've, you know, almost complete expansion through all available habitat. But what's at risk here is the Kenai Peninsula for sure, the northern portion at least. And there is some tremendously good, well, salmon habitat currently, but it would make for very good pike habitat. And that's what we're nervous about. So there's some locations that if pike got into it would be completely devastating. You know, completely wipe out salmon because of the type of habitat in that system would. Would favor pike in an apex predator like that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Does it seem like there's. Does it seem inevitable or does it seem like there's something that there's a move you guys will have at your disposal?

[Parker Bradley]

You know, it's. With enough time, it's likely inevitable. Now we're taking some preventative measures in that Vogel Lake that I mentioned. We eradicated pike from there in 2021. And what we have now is a weir in place near the mouth of that drainage, preventing pike from moving up through Cook Inlet through that pathway. So, you know, so we're taking prevention measures there, but some of these other locations, you know, we're kind of exploring options. We really want to dial in. How frequently is this occurring? We. We don't know. It seems to occur frequently enough that pike can establish a population. So a male and a female get into a system and spawn and kind of game over. So.

[Stephen Rinella]

But.

[Parker Bradley]

But we don't know exactly. We don't know really what the exact salinity concentrations or trends are in Cook Inlet. We need to figure that out to actually find what we think would be the boundary of how far south they can go. So once we kind of do that, we can prioritize, you know, monitoring and prevention measures.

[Stephen Rinella]

Man.

[Brody Henderson]

Just. Just to play devil's advocate, I think there would be some people that might say if these things are traveling on their own into these. They're not getting no one's dumping a bucket of pike into a lake. Right. If they're doing it on their own, like, are they still considered an invasive species?

[Parker Bradley]

Yeah. So that's a really good question. Short answer is yes, because they wouldn't be spreading if it wasn't for an initial human introduction.

[Brody Henderson]

Gotcha.

[Parker Bradley]

They're still not native to the area. So to be invasive they have to be non native and you know, causing harm. You know, a good example of that would be like the Asian carp throughout the Midwest, if they got established in the Great Lakes, you wouldn't consider them native because they swam there on own. Right.

[Brody Henderson]

So the other kind of, the other part of that, that question is at least down here you'll have these situations where like pike or smallmouth bass or some other non native game fish will get introduced into a system. And often there'll be like a contingent of anglers that are like, we don't want these things gone. They're great. Right?

[Maggie Hudlow]

Brown trout.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. What I mean, you know, there's, there's so many examples down here, I would imagine in Alaska, maybe because of, of how important salmon are, that there's not really that kind of pushback like for, for recreational and subsistence anglers saying, oh, you know, they're not so bad.

[Parker Bradley]

Well, we do get that there's definitely a following of pike anglers here that want the pike to be here. You know, move them around. That's, that's why they were introduced here in the first place. Right. Somebody wanting to fish for pike. So we have that. But it is still, you know, your average, you know, Alaskan, overwhelming majority understands what's going on and would much prefer the salmon, you know, over a pike fishery.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Parker Bradley]

Only takes a couple bad apples to really, you know, create a situation like what we have.

[Brody Henderson]

Is this like a super high priority problem now for, for Alaska fishing game?

[Parker Bradley]

It is, this is, this is probably the most devastating aquatic invasive species we have in this region. You know, there's several others that we're dealing with, but I mean, for the pike, we've documented about 25% of our anadromous lakes on a surface area basis completely Destroyed from Pike. 25%. And this is where salmon are rearing and growing before they out migrate. And Then another good 15% are in pretty dire straight. So significant a portion of habitat in this region is, is being impacted by pike. But there's, there's other species on the horizon that we don't want here and we're working to prevent those as well.

[Brody Henderson]

Have you guys implemented like mandatory Catch and kill regulations and places we have.

[Parker Bradley]

In this entire region. If you catch a pike, you're required to kill it. You can kill it and toss it back or keep it if you want, but you can't release it alive legally.

[Stephen Rinella]

You can kill it and pickle it though.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep, yep.

[Parker Bradley]

And I would recommend that they're pretty good pickled.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, thanks for chatting with us today, Parker. That was. That was real informative.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, thanks for coming on, man. And hope you guys have some success with that because you know the world's gonna start no matter where you go. The world's gonna become at risk of looking the same no matter where you go. You know, crows and northern pike. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. All right.

[Parker Bradley]

Thanks. Appreciate it. See y'all.

[Brody Henderson]

Thank you.

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[Stephen Rinella]

Are you allowed to go out of order?

[Phil]

You know, there are no rules. It's just a suggestion.

[Stephen Rinella]

Can we do two questions then do the photo thing. And I thought you find two questions.

[Phil]

Yeah, go for it.

[Stephen Rinella]

Someone asked about making venison demi glace.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Oh, I saw that one.

[Stephen Rinella]

Absolutely.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Just make sure you leave some meat on the bones.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Because it's a little lean if you don't and you got.

[Stephen Rinella]

It's real blonde.

[Brody Henderson]

If you got to commit to the time involved, man.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Oh, but it's so worth it.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, you got to commit to the time being involved. Then you got to commit to later trying to get that ring off your pot because you're going to have a ring of like Something that looks like it would have an industrial application.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like a ring of sort of like epoxy that forms.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

But you got to cook it down to. I mean, picture that you're cooking it down and cooking it down to the point where it's like. It's the consistency of cold maple syrup.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like when you lay a back of a spoon in it and lift it up, it's. It's. It'll stick to that spoon, you know. Wow. And then I'll put it into ice cube trays.

[Brody Henderson]

That's what I do. Because it's powerful. Like, you can throw one ice cube worth and it's like a pint of stock.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. But then later, when you're having your supper, I'll take maybe like two parts butter, one part demi gloss, a little booze or a little wine or something.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Sherry.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah. No, it works good, man. It works good.

[Brody Henderson]

I like that you said supper. Not enough people still call it supper.

[Stephen Rinella]

Dude. I remember. What's so funny is I remember when I went to graduate school, okay. Graduate school. I remember making a conscious decision to stop saying something because you didn't know what.

[Brody Henderson]

It seemed like some.

[Stephen Rinella]

Nobody said supper. Nobody said supper.

[Phil]

Yeah. That's not. That's not a West coast thing.

[Stephen Rinella]

I remember being like, man, how come these guys. No one says, that's why we switched to dinner.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. I hate it. I hate it about myself now. But I, like, consciously switched to dinner, so I thought it made me sad. I was like, these guys don't even know what supper is. Oh, there's another question.

[Phil]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Someone asked. I saw a comment come up where there's a. There's a host Forest Galant. Who?

[Phil]

Oh, yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Is that true that he said that?

[Phil]

I couldn't tell you. I can look it up, though.

[Stephen Rinella]

Says that he said you shouldn't be able to hunt bears because it's trophy hunting. You know what? Here's a good thing to go look at. It was about a guy. Yeah. Talked about that bear that fell out of the man while hunting in Virginia. So a guy was hunting in Virginia, and they treat a bear. There's a tragedy. They treat a bear, and. We discussed this. Sorry. They treat a bear. Someone shot the bear. A guy's dog got under, and he thought the bear was going to land on the dog. He went there to try to save his dog, got hit by the bear, and it. And it killed him. So naturally, it brings out all this commentary like, oh, he deserved it, you know, and all this terrible stuff.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Everybody says pretty Nasty.

[Brody Henderson]

I don't understand what trophy hunting has to do. Like, it's just like, it's.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. I mean, like, bears are great to eat.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

I don't get it. Like. Like, I kill deer and I have their. I have deer skulls all over my damn house.

[Phil]

I don't know how true that is, because I'm finding he's put. He has videos of himself hunting bears online. So I don't. I don't know where that.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. Maybe.

[Phil]

Maybe he had a change of heart. I don't know.

[Stephen Rinella]

I was wondering. I don't know. But. But either way, you know what's a great line? One of my. There's a boon biography by Farriger Mac Faragher. And in. In the boon biography by Mac Faragar, he's talking about venison and venison and bear meat. And he says that on the American frontier, bear meat was for eating.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

You shot deer. You shot deer for leather. And when you got hungry, you shot bears.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Anyone who's ever eaten a good fall black bear should try it.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Oh, man. It's fatty and delicious. It's. It's awesome.

[Stephen Rinella]

And, you know, everything's got a trophy, man.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, that's some. Some weasels back there.

[Stephen Rinella]

Weasel's got a little trophy.

[Seth]

Okay.

[Phil]

People are saying that he said it on his most recent podcast, but I haven't heard that. I can't speak to that, so I don't think any. Any of us can right now.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, it's a. It's a odd. Like, you'd have to. Really. You'd have to stay up for a few days to find a way to.

[Brody Henderson]

Justify that, and you still wouldn't.

[Stephen Rinella]

How do we do the fishing trip thing?

[Phil]

You say? Our next segment is called Meat Eater Top Threes.

[Stephen Rinella]

Our next segment's called Meat Eater Top Threes.

[Brody Henderson]

If they felt. Oh, okay.

[Phil]

Don't forget about this roadie.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, I. This. Yeah, I was waiting on these musical transitions. I hadn't heard one yet.

[Stephen Rinella]

It's great film, but really good film.

[Phil]

Thanks. Appreciate it. And then. Yeah, Steve, if you look at the script, then it's you. You continue a little bit more and say, this week, we are ranking our three favorite fishing trips.

[Stephen Rinella]

So naturally, this week, we're ranking our three favorite fishing trips.

[Phil]

Great.

[Stephen Rinella]

Maggie, you go first. What's your third most favorite memorable fishing trip?

[Maggie Hudlow]

So this was a fun trip down in Florida in the Gulf. My folks had just retired, and they spent three months Airbnb hopping in Florida. They Drove down with their lake boat, and they had their. Their old town canoe on top of the truck. My mom was like, we look like Beverly Hillbillies going down here. So I. I flew down there and hung out with them. My dad and I went out with a guide for a day. And then.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, then here you are in the canoe.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Yeah, we just took the canoe out in the mangroves. We had a little trolling motor. We would. We would paddle around. Some fly casting was kind of difficult, but, you know, spinning gear. I'd never caught redfish before. They're super fun fish to catch.

[Stephen Rinella]

And that's your old man in the canoe there?

[Maggie Hudlow]

That's my dad. That's aw. He's big on sun protection. And, man, redfish on the half shell. Holy cow. That's a great fish to eat. I didn't really know what the half shell thing meant, but when you cook them up like that, it hardens up and it's.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, those big scales.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Oh, it's almost like. Almost chunks of crab out of there. It's amazing. I actually. I just cooked up that redfish you gave me this summer.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, that's good.

[Maggie Hudlow]

It was delicious.

[Brody Henderson]

You can do that?

[Stephen Rinella]

You didn't steal my fish.

[Maggie Hudlow]

I didn't? No. You gave that fish to me.

[Brody Henderson]

You can do that same thing with pike.

[Maggie Hudlow]

No kidding.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Nice.

[Brody Henderson]

You can, man.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Gonna have to catch some.

[Stephen Rinella]

You cook northerns, you leave the scales on.

[Maggie Hudlow]

You can do that and it forms that. Delicious.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, you got some slime scraping to get down too, man.

[Brody Henderson]

You're not gonna eat the skin anyway.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, you know a trick on D, sliming those suckers. You ever put them in salt for a minute? Yeah, that comes off.

[Brody Henderson]

It's amazing how they keep producing it for ever after.

[Stephen Rinella]

Like, where's it coming from? Yeah. All right. Number two. Or is that all?

[Maggie Hudlow]

I think we all do now.

[Phil]

We're going to do Brody's number three.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, wow. This can take forever.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Yeah, I tried to go fast, fly through it.

[Phil]

It's nine things to talk about.

[Brody Henderson]

This is tough for me, man. I've had a lot of good fish.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, that's gorgeous.

[Brody Henderson]

I kind of concentrated on family trips because they're the most fun these days.

[Stephen Rinella]

Look at the colors.

[Brody Henderson]

Every couple years, I gotta go on this vacation where my wife's family gets together for a family reunion down south. And it's kind of vacation where people spend half the day on the beach and half the day at the pool. And that. That is tough for me. So I always try and squeeze some fishing in and we got into some. That first picture, we got into some dorado and cobia a few miles out. And then the next picture, we. We really got into the speckled trout and white trout back in the sound, and it was just a great trip.

[Stephen Rinella]

Love it.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Did you gaffe that thing while you had it on the fly?

[Brody Henderson]

The guy, the. We were fishing with a guide we know down there.

[Stephen Rinella]

He do that gaff.

[Brody Henderson]

He did the gaffing. Yeah. But. Yeah.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, it was my number three. Oh, I was just. See, here, Here, I'm holding the triple tail I shot with a spear gun. But this is just a placeholder for the last bunch of years, handful years, I've been going down and diving, spearfishing the oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico. And that's become not my most favorite, but a favorite thing of mine to go do is do the oil rigs. And with that triple tail, it's funny because you have all this murky, brackish water that floats up top. And then you have this little band of clear water. So let's say it's 30ft deep. You'll have like 12ft of muck that's on top. Then you'll have a four or five foot band of water you can see. Then you got all the bottom muck. And they call it, like the center of the Oreo. And you hunt the center of the Oreo. And it's funny because, like, fish go into the center of the Oreo and this. This oreo center was about big enough for a person to lay horizontal in it. I'm not kidding you. It's like a very narrow window of clear water. And I go down and I find that narrow window of clear water. And I look and there's that some bitch in triple tail sitting there. And he. The last thing he thought was, someone's gonna shoot him.

[Brody Henderson]

You know how they lay sideways under, like, pallets and like that. He wasn't.

[Stephen Rinella]

He was upright in the rig. Upright in the rig. And I walked up to him like I was walking up to you. You know, in no country for old man, when he gets the cop with that captive bolt gun. Yep, that was me and that fish.

[Brody Henderson]

That's a big triple tail.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay, I'm done.

[Phil]

Maggie's number two.

[Maggie Hudlow]

My number two. This is cool mountain fishing trip right in my backyard, in the winds. Went up there with my boyfriend. This is actually a very memorable fishing trip from a dumb mistake I made, which I'll get to, but.

[Phil]

So where is this, Maggie? Sorry.

[Maggie Hudlow]

This is in the winds.

[Phil]

I don't know where that is.

[Maggie Hudlow]

It is the Wind river range in Wyoming.

[Phil]

Ah, gotcha. This is the lingo I'm not privy to. Thank you.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Move on. So we went in, I think about 16 or 17 miles one day, and we sort of just made a big loop and fished our way around for a week and came out another trailhead. It was awesome. My old dog, he was, I think 11 there, and he was a trooper. Came the whole time. We, yeah, Caught cuddies. Brookies. It was just a really great trip. We. I brought this little packet of, like, curry paste up with me. It was like a single use packet and cooking fish over the fire with some curry paste in the middle. Like, maybe you're just country hungry, but holy moly, it was delicious.

[Stephen Rinella]

That's good.

[Brody Henderson]

That's the best way to eat trout.

[Maggie Hudlow]

It was. You, like, didn't need butter or anything. It was really good. So the last day our. It rained so hard our. Our tent, it was like slapping a bag of wine, if you ever did that in your youthful days. So it rained harder than I'd ever seen it rain in the winds. And we're walking out, and I'm just bopping along thinking about a cheeseburger and a cold beer at the burger bar. And, you know, we're off trail because there's a bunch of trees down and stuff. And I just took one bad step, and there's a lot of swearing involved.

[Stephen Rinella]

Looks like you took a bad step and got hit by a truck.

[Maggie Hudlow]

He was like, you know, he was like, I'll just set up the tent. I'll leave you here. You know, I'll go get some horses and come back and get you. And I was so mad. I was pissed. I'm walking out of here, God damn it. So I walked out nine miles on a broken ankle, and I've got a plate and seven screws to boot from it. Wow.

[Stephen Rinella]

So that looks painful.

[Maggie Hudlow]

So watch your step out there, kids.

[Phil]

All right, Brody, you're number two.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, yeah. A couple years ago, we. We go to Fort Peck usually every year for Memorial Day weekend. And a couple years ago, we just had, like, the trip of trips. Like, for three days, we could do, like, no wrong on walleye and pike. Like giant walleye, big pike. And it was. It was just like, one of the best fishing trips I've ever been on. Like, the boys were just crushing big fish. It was. It was just a lot of fun.

[Stephen Rinella]

You can also get your heart broken there too.

[Randall]

Oh, yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

I mean, the year before, it wasn't that great last year it was.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, we just like the wind.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, yeah. But that. We just, like, hit it perfectly.

[Stephen Rinella]

And it was just Lakers northeast walleyes.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Stephen Rinella]

Cool.

[Phil]

Steve, you want to do your. Your number two? Bring that up here. I think we all know this picture.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah. One, the one that got away.

[Brody Henderson]

That octopus still down there.

[Stephen Rinella]

Still down there. Still haunts me. Someday I'm gonna find out where he lives.

[Phil]

Puss in the pot.

[Stephen Rinella]

Knocking on his puss in the pot. I know where he lives. They don't move that much. We're gonna tangle again. Probably this August.

[Brody Henderson]

That thing might be big enough to just drag your boat down with.

[Stephen Rinella]

No, because I told you that. What I learned about it, what the guy told me a trick, a fishing trick.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, we snag him.

[Stephen Rinella]

When you're fighting, having a fight with one, put a hook into him.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Before he can open the bay.

[Stephen Rinella]

Then you fight with them. And when. If he wins the fight, he just takes off to the bottom. Then you crank them back up and fight with him again. You can fight him as many times as you want because you got that hook stuck in him. So next time I get him up to the boat, I'm putting a hook into him or I'm gonna drag his ass to the beach. I'm just gonna drive to the beach.

[Brody Henderson]

Just wrestle him on the beach.

[Stephen Rinella]

He can stick to the bottom of the boat all he wants, and then he's. Pretty soon he's gonna be pinned between my boat bottom and the bank. I got it all planned.

[Phil]

I'm just imagining this being the last act of your life, like. Like decades from now. And it's just you and the octopus. You both end up on a beach somewhere.

[Brody Henderson]

Steve battles the kraken.

[Stephen Rinella]

I would love to die fighting that octopus.

[Phil]

Great. Okay, let's go to Maggie's number number one. See what.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Oh, my. Nate, my boyfriend, and my good friend Emily and I took this awesome trip to Costa Rica.

[Brody Henderson]

Pez Gaios.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Pescagallos. Y that rooster fish. It fought so hard. It was like tailing like a tarpon.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, really?

[Maggie Hudlow]

Getting up. And I was so spent. And the guys picked it up and handed it to me. I was like, oh, man, I gotta do push ups before my next saltwater fishing trip. I am spent. But so we went out a couple days with the guy. We went out at the beginning of our trip. This is like a two week trip. We just kind of bopped around the OSA peninsula. And so we went out the first day and we crushed it on dorado. So we had a pile of fish that we just freeze and carried around with us and we went out. I think it was like right before Christmas, that first day. So I think the next picture should be our Christmas feast. Oh, that's a jack I caught offshore. We just tossed poppers off the shore for Jack and there were rooster fish surfing in the waves.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, really?

[Maggie Hudlow]

It was incredible. Just the diversity of fish we found. So this was all dorado. We've got like three different. We've got like two ceviches, a poke, kind of like a crudo sashimi thing, some pan fried fish, some kind of burnt fried plantains, and a embarrassing amount of pilsens in the trash can over there. But. But that was our Christmas feast. Oh, and the snapper was incredibly good eating.

[Stephen Rinella]

That's a mutton.

[Brody Henderson]

Is that a kubera?

[Maggie Hudlow]

I think it's a small kubera. The kubera was really tasty. Eat.

[Brody Henderson]

Those things get gigantic.

[Maggie Hudlow]

They get huge. We caught a bigger one, but that size was really good eating. We actually, the one souvenir we brought back from Costa Rica was this like, metal dish that we bought at one of the local stores so we could cook those snapper fish in it. That is. That's the one thing we brought home, and I still use it for cooking fish.

[Phil]

Great. All right, Brody, you're number one.

[Brody Henderson]

Every trip to the fish shack is good, but last year was like exceptionally good fishing. And the funny thing is like a day. Day or two before we got there, Steve called me and he's like, man, I got some bad news. He's like, fishing's really good, so it's bound to end soon.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. And it comes in seven day waves.

[Brody Henderson]

But we got there and it just kept going and going and going all week.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Nice.

[Brody Henderson]

Halibut salmon, Pacific cod, lingcod. It was just like a really good king salmon. It was just a really, really good week of fishing. And it's just always a great time up there.

[Phil]

Great. All right, let's move on to Steve's number one here. Yep.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah. So that's a. Yeah, that's a wooden hook. A traditional native Alaskan coastal. Native Alaskan fishing hook called a knock knock. I was out with Heather Duville and her father Mike, who live in Craig, Alaska, their Tlingit, and they took me out to fish. We were filming my new History channel show, Hunting History. And one of the scenes, we go out with them to fish with traditional hooks. I had always seen these hooks everywhere you go in southeast Alaska. One of these hooks is hanging on the wall. And I always thought two things. I thought how do you set that thing? And two, there's no way that thing works. And we put a dozen of those hooks down, let them fish for maybe two hours.

[Brody Henderson]

You're baiting that with octopus, right?

[Stephen Rinella]

Wrapped. Baited with octopus. Her and her dad set out. They always set them in pairs. They send them in pairs so the hooks compete with each other. We set out six pairs. Okay. They let them fish, I don't know, two hours maybe. We let them sit for two hours. So 12 hooks all set in the same area on the same bank, come back and had. And had three, three halibut, all 70 plus.

[Maggie Hudlow]

So you're not like trolling or jigging.

[Stephen Rinella]

That hook floats. So huh. That hook is tied to a rock. So there's a rock and you got about 18 inches of line. And that hook floats above the rock. It's buoyant and it's got two different woods so it floats the right way. And the. It's one of those. What he ate is wrapped in octopus. So he goes on and they got a metal spike on there that winds up catching them pointing back, Pointing back the other way. So they were telling me that traditionally those hooks were made with bare. Not metal, not stainless, but bare shin bone. Okay. So they carved their own nocks and they put that stainless barb on there or you know. But I, when I got home I put out an email at looking for bare shin bones and Corey is not here, gave me a bare shin bone. So I, I cut that bare shin bone up and I made a couple bare shin bone barbs and they had given me one of those knocks and I took the steel spike off and put a bare shin bone. I made the, I did the whole thing. I dried it out real good and made it with a belt sander. So I made the prong and, and mounted that bare shin bone prong and sent it back up to Heather and they're going to take it out and fish it.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Cool.

[Stephen Rinella]

And see. And I think it's going to hold up nice. Yeah, I think it's going to hold up. That was like. But that day, that was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. 12 hooks, three big Hal. But one of those sets had two. So seeing the hal that come up on a wooden hook tied to a rock, that's wild. I mean a rock, I had seen.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Those but I always assumed they were like trolled or something.

[Stephen Rinella]

It was cool as man. I couldn't Believe. You know, the other thing is, when that fish is hooked on that thing, he's just like. They take him up real gentle. He's not fighting. It's like, you got him by the. You got him by the balls when he's on that thing, man, they just come up. They're like, I give up.

[Brody Henderson]

And when they're pulling them in, are they harpooner? Are they just lifting them up?

[Stephen Rinella]

So he takes. I learned so much about hell. But this day, when that fish comes up, he's got a way. He hits it on its nose flop.

[Brody Henderson]

Just stuns them.

[Stephen Rinella]

Just stuns him. And you only pull a big helm. The boat starts beating all around. It's gonna, like, break fishing rods, and everybody's freaking out. They pet it on the white side of the belly. You just tickle its belly.

[Brody Henderson]

I got to remember that.

[Stephen Rinella]

And they go rigid. And then I also learned I've been bleeding Hal all the way wrong. When they bleed a halibut, it's like. It's like. It's like a Quentin Tarantino movie.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Where did you. You told me.

[Stephen Rinella]

Where do you got to stick them? I can't. I'll have to explain it.

[Brody Henderson]

You don't want to give away that dude.

[Stephen Rinella]

And they're not sawing away. I mean, they take that knife and one little. And it's like. Like I said, it's like a. I didn't know. There's so much blood in it. We bleed Hal, but you get, like, a thimble. They bleed Hal, but like I said, it looks like. It's like. It's like watching Pulp Fiction. That was a hell of a day.

[Maggie Hudlow]

I bet.

[Stephen Rinella]

Thank you, Heather.

[Phil]

Awesome. Thanks, guys. Okay, last. Last Q and A section here, then we'll. We'll wrap up the shows here. Last. Last call for questions. Get them in if you want. The first one's more of a comment, but he thought you'd appreciate this. Steve Collins says that he finally picked up a copy of the Scavenger's Guide to Hocusine from a used bookstore, and the lower half of the pages are covered in dried deer blood, so I wanted to let you know.

[Seth]

That's great.

[Stephen Rinella]

How's he know it's deer blood?

[Phil]

He says apparently someone whoever sold it to the store wrote a note saying it was deer blood. Maybe he's just trying to cover his pain.

[Stephen Rinella]

Well, that's classic murder. That's a classic murder move right there. Murder behavior. Cops get to your house. That's all deer blood, boys.

[Phil]

Question for the crew. What do you Think of shed hunting area closures. Is it ethical or a pointless gesture?

[Stephen Rinella]

No, I think it makes sense, like, in some place. It depends. In some places, I think where you have, like. I think if you got an area where you got this incredible amounts of snow and you got a bunch of animals that are already stressed and half dead, and it's March and they. And instead of people hounding them and chasing them around to get antlers, I see now and then that it makes sense to tell everybody to hold off till. Till you reduce the snow load and the animals can move on.

[Maggie Hudlow]

I totally agree because I live right in the middle of a huge mule deer migration corridor. We've got elk feed grounds, and if people could just go in there whenever, like, those animals would be freaked out.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Nobody.

[Maggie Hudlow]

The most stressful time of the year.

[Brody Henderson]

You just don't need to be bumping them around at the time of year when they're at their, like the. The bottom of their health for the year. It's just like too easy to run them down.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah. And there's a saying. Winter, winter weekend, spring kills. You're hitting them at a bad time and then. And then two. You always gotta, like, the problem is too. Sometimes you gotta make laws for the worst actors.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Stephen Rinella]

And you get people. It sucks to say it, but you get people that run after and chase after animals to get them to drop.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Oh, man. And like the shed opener where I live, it's. Well, they actually have a week for locals now, which is nice because it slowed it down a little bit. But like, I walk my dog out on BLM every day and I know the places where the deer hold and I avoid those places. You know, shed opener people are just running around on four by side by sides. Like, not on dirt roads. There's more people out there. I never see a soul out there. And they're just all over the place. Deer running around, freaking out. Like, it's always a big ordeal. So, you know, there might be something to having like one opening day being this big event, but I think it's better than animals getting chased around in the winter when they're already struggling pretty good.

[Phil]

Mitch is asking how long is too long to freeze a skull before cleaning it to mount.

[Brody Henderson]

There's no such thing. It's not.

[Maggie Hudlow]

I had a deer skull in a Dave sushi bag that I forgot about in my garage when I lived in a trailer here in Bozeman with my friend. Friend goes. I was wondering what was in that Dave's sushi bag in the garage. And I opened it up and, good Lord, Maggie, that thing's rancid. I was like, oh, don't worry. I'll boil it. It'll be fine.

[Stephen Rinella]

Yeah, that bone will never weaken in a freezer. Cool.

[Phil]

I think you covered a lot of this stuff on the podcast with Mo, Steve, but this is the first radio live since your new show, Hunting History premiered. And Anthony's feeding into the conspiracy. He says, do you think DB Cooper burned his parachute?

[Stephen Rinella]

No. I mean, no one knows, but I don't know if you ever messed with the parachute. That's a it. They're a mess. They're a mess. I have to think he's. I think he stashed it. I think he stuck it somewhere. I don't think he carried it around. I think he buried it somewhere, you know, after messing with one. Like, you stick that thing under a log and jam it under there and throw some moss and stuff. You'd have to just. You'd have to, like, dig in the.

[Brody Henderson]

Right spot, especially in that environment.

[Stephen Rinella]

I don't think he carried it around. I think burn. It would have been a. In the rain.

[Phil]

Greg's asking thoughts on Colorado non resident elk bow tags in 2025. Do you think the old over the counter units will be zero points? He's trying to build confidence. He wasn't over the counter guy that wasn't smart enough to save up his points.

[Brody Henderson]

I. I think. I think it was a necessary move as much as people don't want to hear it. And the point thing is going to be very unit dependent. Some units you'll need points and some you won't. Just depends how many tags they issue.

[Stephen Rinella]

Cool. I could do this all day, Phil. I like these questions.

[Phil]

Okay, well, this is officially the longest episode of Radio Live.

[Stephen Rinella]

We can keep going.

[Phil]

Yeah. Okay, cool. Thanks for the questions, guys. Appreciate it. This is the part where you wrap up the show, Steve, you know, say anything else you want to say.

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, Brody, wrap it up.

[Brody Henderson]

How about I wrap it up by telling you to talk about your little history tour you're doing?

[Stephen Rinella]

Oh, yeah. So me and Randall. Tour is a little. Someone pointed out the tour seems a little. It's a little heavy.

[Phil]

Guess what? Randall and Seth are still in the waiting room. Hey, guys. What's going on?

[Stephen Rinella]

Me and Randall. Here's the deal. Me and Randall. Does anybody know the dates off the top of their head?

[Maggie Hudlow]

I can find them.

[Randall]

The 11th in Bozeman.

[Stephen Rinella]

Me and Randall are going on a mini tour. College. We're going on a college tour. We're going to college campuses and doing a free lecture about the mountain man era. We're doing a. We're doing one at Montana State University. We're doing one at University of Montana.

[Maggie Hudlow]

And we're doing 20th. Sorry, I was trying to stick the dates in there.

[Stephen Rinella]

Okay. Montana State University, February 11th. University of Montana, February 20th. University of Wyoming, February 26th. Yeah, it's free, open to the public. Watch our website to get. You got to register. You can't just show up. You got to like, tell your con so we can. So people don't show up. And there's no seats. And I'm not sure how many of them still have seats, but like I said, come on down. Me and Randall on stage telling the story of the mountain men and. And what that era meant and means. There you go.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Go on.

[Stephen Rinella]

See you next week.

[Maggie Hudlow]

Themeat.com live events.

[Stephen Rinella]

I'm gonna come down here next week.

[Phil]

Maybe tune in to find out. Thanks, everyone.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, American history buffs. Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellas like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times, violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters, 1761-1775. So again, this new mountain man edition about the beaver skin trade is available for pre order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History. The Mountain Men, 1806-1840 by me, Stephen Rinella.