Ep. 658: Are Governor's Tags Un-American?: REDUX"

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast Episode 658: Are Governor's Tags Un-American?: REDUX Release Date: February 3, 2025

---

Overview

In Episode 658 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Brody Henderson delves deeper into the contentious topic of Governor's tags—special hunting permits that have sparked debate within the hunting and conservation communities. Joining him is Gray Thornton, CEO of the Wild Sheep Foundation, who provides expert insights into the origins, financial implications, and social ramifications of these tags. The discussion navigates through the balance between conservation funding and ethical hunting practices, highlighting real-world examples from states like Montana and Arizona.

---

Understanding Governor's Tags

Governor's tags, also referred to as conservation permits, are special hunting permits that are auctioned or raffled off to raise funds for wildlife conservation. Gray Thornton explains their genesis and operational mechanics:

Gray Thornton [05:04]: "The first governor's tag was actually given to what was then the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep in 1980 by Governor Ed Herschler from Wyoming... The idea was to sell these highly coveted tags at auction and mandate that the proceeds support wild sheep conservation."

These tags are pivotal in funding conservation efforts, especially for species like bighorn sheep that do not generate sufficient revenue through traditional hunting licenses.

---

Origins and Financial Aspects

The inception of Governor's tags was a strategic move to bolster funding for wild sheep conservation, a priority often overlooked compared to more popular game species like elk or deer. Thornton provides a breakdown of the financial flow:

Gray Thornton [05:50]: "BOth in Montana and Arizona, 100% of the proceeds from the sale of any special tag conservation permit go back to the state... On average, we retain about 10%."

For instance, in Montana 2023, the sale of 656 bighorn sheep tags generated approximately $198,000, with additional funds from auction and raffle tags contributing further stakes. Thornton emphasizes the efficiency of auction tags in maximizing funds for conservation:

Gray Thornton [11:20]: "73% of all wild sheep agency funding came from either an auction tag, conservation permit, or a raffle tag... Fast forward 10 years later, we're still quantifying the data. Right now it's about 83% in the United States of sheep."

---

Social and Ethical Implications

The crux of the debate revolves around the perception of Governor's tags as being "un-American" due to their association with wealth and exclusivity. Critics argue that auctioning high-priced tags creates an uneven playing field, where only the affluent can afford to participate, leading to social discontent and envy within the hunting community.

Brody Henderson [19:54]: "There's a perception that some lucky guy got screwed out of his big horn tag... But they auctioned it off to the highest bidder."

Thornton counters by highlighting the essential role these funds play in conservation:

Gray Thornton [24:32]: "We're already managing super conservatively on bighorn sheep... these are additive. And when you look at, you know, what the Big Horns are..., it's not a money maker for us, but it is a hell of a moneymaker for the agencies."

The discussion also touches upon the societal factors influencing perceptions, including class issues and polarized views on wealth and privilege.

---

Case Studies: Montana and Arizona

Montana: Montana serves as a prime example of how Governor's tags function within a state. With a conservative harvest rate of 2-3% of male bighorn sheep, Montana ensures sustainable populations without overexploitation.

Gray Thornton [05:58]: "Montana sold the tag for $480,000 in 2013... By statute, Wild Sheep Foundation has to direct those monies to the agency."

Arizona: Arizona recently made headlines by abolishing auction tags in favor of raffles, a move influenced by social pressures and perceptions of equity.

Brody Henderson [40:33]: "Arizona is only conducting their... not the super tags, but in state. So now you have a... What? How are we going to handle equity?"

Thornton explains the shift and its implications:

Gray Thornton [33:09]: "Arizona got rid of Governor's tags, and they're going to raffles... $95,000 for a pronghorn tag versus $215,000 for a bighorn tag."

This transition raises concerns about maintaining adequate funding for conservation while addressing social equity.

---

Challenges and Potential Solutions

One significant challenge is balancing the need for substantial conservation funds with the ethical considerations of exclusivity and perceived unfairness. Thornton suggests that while auction tags are highly effective financially, there is room for improvement in how funds are allocated and ensuring transparency.

Gray Thornton [74:46]: "We need to do a better job of holding our agencies accountable... ensuring that we're doing as much as we can efficiently with that money."

The conversation also explores alternative funding mechanisms, such as raffles, but acknowledges their limitations in raising comparable funds:

Brody Henderson [92:49]: "Had that been a raffle, that tag would have brought in maybe $200,000."

Thornton emphasizes the urgency of supporting auction tags due to declining wild sheep populations and the critical need for funding conservation efforts.

---

Conclusion and Call to Action

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the importance of Governor's tags in sustaining wild sheep populations across North America. Despite the social controversies, these tags remain a vital financial tool for conservation.

Gray Thornton [97:19]: "Most of our... directed $89 million back into agencies for wild sheep conservation just on the sale of conservation permits. It's very, very effective."

Thornton urges listeners to support these conservation efforts through participation in auctions and raffles, emphasizing the collective responsibility to preserve wildlife.

For those interested in contributing or learning more, the Wild Sheep Foundation encourages visits to their website:

Gray Thornton [98:24]: "Go to wildsheepfoundation.org and see what we do."

---

Notable Quotes

• Gray Thornton [05:04]: "The idea from Ed's perspective was... to sell these highly coveted tags at auction and mandate that the proceeds support wild sheep conservation."

• Brody Henderson [19:54]: "There's a perception that it would have been 657 tags, so some lucky guy got screwed out of his big horn tag... but they auctioned it off to the highest bidder."

• Gray Thornton [24:32]: "We're already managing super conservatively on bighorn sheep... these are additive. And when you look at what the Big Horns are..., it's not a money maker for us, but it is a hell of a moneymaker for the agencies."

• Brody Henderson [40:33]: "Arizona is only conducting their... not the super tags, but in state. So now you have a... What? How are we going to handle equity?"

• Gray Thornton [97:19]: "Most of our... directed $89 million back into agencies for wild sheep conservation just on the sale of conservation permits. It's very, very effective."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 658 of The MeatEater Podcast offers a comprehensive examination of Governor's tags, shedding light on their critical role in wildlife conservation amidst social and ethical debates. Through expert insights and candid discussions, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the complexities surrounding these conservation tools and the ongoing efforts to balance financial efficacy with community perceptions.

For further information or to support wild sheep conservation, visit the Wild Sheep Foundation at wildsheepfoundation.org.

Transcript

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, American history buffs. Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of. Of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, this new Mountain man edition about the beaver skin trade is available for pre order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History the Mountain Men 1806-1840 by me, Stephen Rinella.

[Brody Henderson]

This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless.

[Gray Thornton]

The Meat Eater Podcast.

[Brody Henderson]

You can't predict anything.

[Stephen Rinella]

The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.

[Brody Henderson]

Whether you're check trail cams, hanging deer.

[Stephen Rinella]

Stands, or scouting for elk.

[Brody Henderson]

First Light has performance apparel to support.

[Stephen Rinella]

Every hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light.com F I R S T L I T.com.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay, everybody, welcome to our Governor Tags. Our Governor's tags. Un American Redux. Is that the right use of redux? Remember they did Apocalypse now and they recut it and called it Redux.

[Corinne]

I do.

[Brody Henderson]

I don't know. It's a redo do over where we ourselves are, are in the hot seat. We, we did an episode, our governor's tags on American. And, and you know, the, the, the, the, the episode was phrased as though it was a question, but I think there was an over, there was an overriding sentiment in the room about, you know, it's hyperbolic language. Overriding sentiment in the room of, I would say a tipping a. The governor's tags. The sentiment in the room is that governor's tags tipped un American. We were called out on this by Gray Thornton from the Wild Sheep foundation, which is the preeminent wild sheep conservation organization in the, In America, and in all fairness, does more than any entity in putting wild sheep back on the mountain, keeping wild sheep on the mountain. So we had to hear him out, and he's here today to tell us where we went wrong in his opinion. Gray, I want to keep the, I want to keep it. I want to keep all this fair.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

So I want. Who gets to, who gets to say. Just to bring people up to speed. Who gets to say. Who gets to describe what a governor's tag is.

[Gray Thornton]

I'm happy to give it a shot.

[Stephen Rinella]

Give it a shot.

[Brody Henderson]

And then if you do it and I don't like it, I'll. I'll give you, I'll give you a thumbs down.

[Gray Thornton]

You know, here's a good thing is, Stephen, this is your show.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

So I'm just honored to be here. No, I don't, I don't know if I called it out. We just wanted to point out some things that we would have liked at least, Least had stated.

[Brody Henderson]

So I, I get criticized about something or another every day. Okay. You and I both now, most of them, I kind of, like, laugh them off. But your criticism of some of the comments that were made on that episode struck me so much that I emailed you within seconds of reading them. So, like, you know, when you get, you know, if you get called out in a way where you're like, okay, all right. You know, normally I get a mean email every day from my friend Doug. And, you know, I usually ask him, I'll usually reply by asking if he's seen any turkeys around. How's the turkeys looking in other news. But no, no, I, I, Yeah, tell everybody what a governor's.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

So, well, let's talk about what it is before we talk about what it is.

[Gray Thornton]

Well, first of all, where do they come from? And so the first governor's tag was actually given to what was then the foundation for North American Wild Sheep, now Wild sheep foundation, in 1980 by Governor Ed Herschler from Wyoming. A lot different than they are today. But the idea from Ed's perspective was, hey, we have these highly coveted tags opportunities. We've got this fairly new organization. Foundation for North American Wild Sheep was founded in 1977. So three years later, what if we gave one of these tags, they sold it at auction, and we just mandate that they dedicate all the funds to wild sheep conservation in Wyoming. So that's how the whole process started.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Gray Thornton]

And so back then, yeah, it was a governor's tag.

[Brody Henderson]

And so because the state wasn't able to, the state didn't have the mechanism to sell it themselves.

[Gray Thornton]

No. So they kind of look at a NGO as we're the ones that can put on the party, put on the show and there's a number of us out there that are doing it. But it was kind of a changing point for wild sheep conservation funding. Bottom line, Fanaz or now Wild Sheep foundation is in existence because sheep weren't a priority. They didn't pay their way too few and unlike elk, unlike mule deer, unlike whitetails, unlike even turkeys, not enough of them to fund their conservation. So for many agencies they really weren't a priority.

[Brody Henderson]

Do you mind explaining what that means by not enough to fund their conservation?

[Gray Thornton]

For example, let's look at Montana and we'll look 2023 data, 2024 data. 658, 656 tags made available. 558 to residents that brought in. And this is 2023 data. 69,750 bucks.

[Corinne]

You're talking sheep now, right?

[Gray Thornton]

Sheep, bighorn sheep tax. 98 non resident tags brought in a little over $122,000. So $198,000 total for bighorn sheep conservation. From the sale of tags, from the.

[Brody Henderson]

Sale of 600 tags.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, not a lot of money. I started really looking at this 10 years prior back in 2014 and looked and thought because I was fortunate to take bighorn in our limited area in 2014, I paid congratulations. Oh shit crazy. You know, I was a non resident hunter. I paid 750 bucks. Coincidentally that year at our show, the Montana tag sold for $480,000 2013. So I was looking at the funding model going, this is kind of interesting, you know, how relevant are these tags to wild sheep conservation? How relevant is Wild Sheep foundation to the wild sheep economy? Because we're, we're one of the organizations that sells the most. So I did kind of a deep dive and I had a couple of our biologists look at WAFWA data and you know, I think back in 2014 it hasn't changed too much. I think it was about $120,000 came to the state on the non auction or raffle tech. I thought, well hell, you can't buy a pickup truck and fund a biologist for that. So how the hell are we going to fund wild sheep conservation? And that's really what Ed Herschler was looking at back in 1980, is that they don't pay their way there's so few of them and the revenue stream is so small from the whether they're LEH tags or not.

[Brody Henderson]

What's leh?

[Gray Thornton]

Limited entry hunting.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Gray Thornton]

What most of us in North America see is, well, we gotta apply for a sheep tag. You know, we're blessed in Montana, the only, only lower 48 state that you can in effect buy an over the counter sheep tab. Pretty freaking cool. We got to protect that. Alaska, obviously, you can buy over counter doll's tag, although now that's every third year for a non resident. Canada is where you can, you know, you just buy over the counter. For Canadian residents, you know, we obviously have to have an outfitter. So it was a unique funding model and it's certainly grown and wild. Chief foundation, quite frankly, has been kind of the premier governor's tag. And now we like to call them conservation permits because that's really what they are. Because they're not only governors. British Columbia has a minister's license. Alberta has a minister's license. Tribal tags, we sell, we sell tags for the Taos Pueblo, for the Navajo Nation, we've sold them for the Hualapai, we've sold them for the Kawani First Nation up in, up in Northwest, or I'm sorry, in Yukon. So it's, you know, we can lump them into a little, I think more descriptive definition called a conservation permit, which I think really identifies what they are. And Stephen, back in 2014, when I asked our conservation guys to do this deep dive, they used Western association of Fish and Wildlife Agency data, WAFWA data, and found that 73% of all wild sheep agency funding came from either a auction tag, conservation permit, or a raffle tag, with the majority of the money coming in from an auction tag. Fast forward 10 years later, we're still, you know, still quantifying the data. Right now it's about 83% in the United States of sheep. Sheep conservation funding at the agency level come from either an off auction or raffle tag.

[Corinne]

So is it like when one of these tags, conservation permit, governor tag, whatever you want to call them, get sold? Is it mandated that that money goes to wild sheep conservation or is it diluted at all?

[Gray Thornton]

Brody, that's the million dollar question. The easy answer is yes. Now it's, you know, the proof's in the pudding and in the implementation. You know, one of the misnomers is, you know, I mean, we just, we just had our convention in reno. We sold 30 tags. We're going to direct about $6.8 million to state provincial Tribal, territorial and federal agencies through the sale of those 30 tags. By statute, Wild Sheep foundation has to direct those monies to the agency. What the agencies do for a little deeper dive, and I'd like to jump into that, but a misnomer is, oh, my God. Wild Sheep foundation got all this money? No, Arizona. 100% of the proceeds from the sale of any special tag conservation permit that we sell go back to the state. Arizona game and fish, Nevada. 100% goes back to Nevada Department of Wildlife. The average that we would retain is about 30, 10%. If you look at all the agencies. If you look at just this last two weeks ago at our sheep show, 7.3 some odd million. We're going to keep 600 and some odd thousand. It's 8.9% coming back to the Wild Sheep foundation from the sale of those tags. Again, some of them are 100% to the agencies. Most of them are on 10. British Columbia is 15% that we can retain. Alaska, interesting enough, has a different kind of a rule, but the monies have to go back to an Alaska NGO. So we sell the conservation permit, 100% goes back to our Alaska chapter. I think they keep 15% and then they direct the rest to state of Alaska. So I could certainly show you where Wild Sheep foundation directs our monies. I mean, this year we're budgeting about 2.7, 2.8 in grant and aid going out of a 3.7 million that will fund education, conservation education, youth education, engaging women, disease research. But so much of what we do is grant nade out. An agency or a chapter applies for a grant, we give that money away, we keep six hundred and some odd thousand dollars from these permits. We're giving away 3.7. It's not a money maker for us, but it is a hell of a moneymaker for the agencies. And that's what we're trying to focus on. And if there's a better way to do it, we're all ears because our focus is that ram you or lamb on the ridgeline. And how do we put money into the agency to affect their conservation, their enhancement, their repatriation, the restoration habitat and all that. So did I, did I pass? Do we call it a conservation permit?

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, I'm happy with the definition of conservation permit. One of the things. So this is something I said. If you look at our thing, Corinne, which there's a quote. They made an extra tag.

[Doug]

Yeah. You were, you were, I think you were trying to figure out like, I.

[Corinne]

Think what you were saying is it Wasn't coming out of the same pool that people draw from.

[Brody Henderson]

Whose side was I on when I said that there?

[Corinne]

I think it got you on the.

[Gray Thornton]

Right side because that's absolutely correct.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Doug]

You qualified that you were, like, undecided and split down the middle.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Oh, no. I said this is one of the few things. No, I remember. I said this is one of the few things in life I don't have an opinion about. I'm too torn.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah. We can. We can bring in some of Cal's arguments later. I think that's. That's interesting.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay, so let's. Let's dive into one of the. Let's dive into one of these. These aspects of governor's tags that gets people riled up.

[Gray Thornton]

Right. Conservation permits, you mean.

[Brody Henderson]

Sorry. Conservation permits. I'm going to call them governor's tags.

[Gray Thornton]

Okay.

[Brody Henderson]

Just because that's. Well, no, I'll try to be thoughtful about. I say governor's tags. Other guys know what I'm talking about. If I say conservation tag, they're not going to know what I'm talking about. The rebranding is kind of like the.

[Corinne]

Gulf of Mexico and the Gulf of America.

[Doug]

But then it's like, no, I know it doesn't mean that we should stick with.

[Gray Thornton]

Stick with governor's tags. But when we go to. When we go to B.C. or minister's permit, where we're talking tribal. I'll call it a tribal permit.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

You know, there's an outfitter, there's a guide that. So I'm talking about Gulf of America.

[Corinne]

I kind of felt like you wouldn't let that just go.

[Brody Henderson]

There's a. There's a. So sometimes when we spearfish down in Louisiana, we stay in this place and next to the place is the. The. The Gulf of America charter, you know.

[Corinne]

Oh, that's the name of their outfit or something.

[Brody Henderson]

That. That was my first. Because this is years ago. That was my first awareness. I just, like, chuckled about the Gul America.

[Corinne]

He was ahead of the game.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, he's way ahead of. So it must have been brewing a long time. I. I got like, I'm. I'm totally fine. Golf. I'm. I'm totally fine. Gulf of America. Denali. I feel like that's pretty solidified in Alaskan culture. Yeah. Like, even. Even the politicians in Alaska are like, what? Yeah, I didn't know it was a problem with the name. I do remember it being McKinley. Okay, here's one. Here's a governor's tag argument that folks make when they're arguing about this. Oh, you know what? You know what? They want to think about this. In all fairness, we have to get into the fact that there is a class. There's. There's a class issue here.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, without question.

[Brody Henderson]

So the other night, Saturday, two Saturdays ago, I didn't watch it, but I. I watched on YouTube, David Chappelle did the opening monologue on Saturday Night Live. And Chappelle was talking about the LA fires, and he was talking about reading commentary and news articles of people saying, you know, I'm glad those rich Californians, there's houses are getting burned down. And he said, chappelle says, that's why I hate poor people. They can't see beyond their own pain. So there, there is a. There is a class issue to this. Like, anything to do with wealth, access, any kind of financial privilege. Right. Is going to generate animosity. Right. You hear someone went to Yale, there's a judgment. Like, if that's not part of your family trajectory, there's a judgment. If someone has.

[Corinne]

It doesn't matter in America, it doesn't matter if you're talking about sheep or, like, real estate or what. Whatever.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Like, there's like, he paid blank million for that house. Boom.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

Like there's a judgment.

[Gray Thornton]

Right, Right.

[Brody Henderson]

You. And so we need to get there. Like, I'd like to get there on the issue of just like a per. A perceived sense in America, like, I guess, globally, historically, a perceived sense that there's like two playing fields and that people of wealth have access to things that people don't have. And implied an ad is some sort of sense that most people that have wealth don't deserve it. So that's just burning. That's simmering underground, and we'll remember to get to it. But let's start with another. Let's start with a less philosophical point, because this is just like a factual point. Get. Give me a. How many. How many tags did Montana issue for big horns?

[Gray Thornton]

One. One for auction, one for raffle.

[Brody Henderson]

No, no, I'm sorry.

[Gray Thornton]

600. In 2023, it was 656 total.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay. There is a perception that.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

That it would have been. Sorry, show me the number again.

[Gray Thornton]

656.

[Brody Henderson]

656.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

So through the public draw, they issue 656 bighorn tags. There's a perception that the number would have been 657.

[Gray Thornton]

Correct.

[Brody Henderson]

So that one other. We should use a state that doesn't have nearly as many because there's so many. There seems like there's A lot. What's the state that doesn't have shit for bighorn tags?

[Gray Thornton]

Nebras, Nebraska.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, I don't want to go that extreme. Texas has a, has a big horn tag.

[Corinne]

One or two maybe.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, six. Okay.

[Gray Thornton]

But yeah, no, I, I, I see your point.

[Brody Henderson]

There's a perception that it should have been 657.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

So some lucky guy, some, some would be lucky guy that would have gone down and did the draw, got screwed out of his big horn tag. Okay. But they auctioned it off to the highest bidder.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

So we've seen a diminishment of the public pool. Now, I want you to tackle whether that's true or not. But then that's going to bring up a broader question. If, if they create an extra tag to facilitate a conservation tag auction, that makes me feel like the number of tags they're issuing becomes kind of arbitrary. Like, how do you create an extra tag if the number of tags that are being distributed is like a biologically driven reality? Meaning if it, how did it go from 656 to 657?

[Gray Thornton]

So I got a, I think an answer that you're going to appreciate. You know, again, I'll go back to the unlimited area. You know, we've got three to four to five kind of depending on the year. Unlimited areas. You know, our guru in this state, the biologist, Sean Stewart, you listen to him talk about the allocation, the quota for those. It used to be three in some, now it's pretty much two. We all know there's some years that they take three, four, five, sometimes six. You know, so you might have a quota of two, but there's six taken legally.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Can you explain how that happens?

[Gray Thornton]

Just. That's it. Well, so there's a, there's a 48 hour window when the season closes. You know, in my particular case, I took a RAM. I was the second RAM taken in 2014 in the unit I was hunting, tried to close the season by sending an inreach in. They don't accept that. So, you know, went through my wife who then called Fish Wildlife, Parks. They go, no, Gray's got to call you.

[Brody Henderson]

You have no cell signal.

[Gray Thornton]

I don't have a cell signal. I don't have a sat phone. So I'm using inreach and long and short. Sean finally went, oh, wait a minute, I know who that guy is. And oh, by the way, he's with Jack Acheson. If there's anyone that knows sheep, it's Jack. And yeah, we're going to Close the season. But in that case, There was another 24 hour delay and another sheep was taken. So three sheep were taken legally in the unit on a quota of two. There's been times where, you know, five people shoot a sheep in one day. You've got 48 hours to report that to either a conservation officer or game warden or a biologist. So there's that lag period. You listen to Sean Stewart, he'll tell you it's biologically insignificant. So that, that third, fourth, fifth, even sixth sheep is biologically insignificant in the overall scheme of the unlimited units that he's responsible for. So we take that. Stephen, go back to, you know, the state of Montana and you were absolutely correct. It is by, typically by the legislature, an authorized additional tag to what Game and Fish is going to say, hey, this is, this is what our, our offtake is going to be. The typical offtake for bighorn sheep males that's considered sustainable is from a, from an allocation standpoint is 2 to 3% of males. Super conservative.

[Brody Henderson]

Wow, that's lower. Right.

[Gray Thornton]

Super conservative. So that's what the state's going to allocate or the.

[Brody Henderson]

Is it really the low?

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, 2 to 3%.

[Brody Henderson]

I know this is, this is really hard. People are going to argue about these numbers all the time.

[Gray Thornton]

Sure.

[Brody Henderson]

But I've heard with deer management, 13%, 20%, not just the males, but the herd.

[Gray Thornton]

Right. And, and you know, and now think of recruitment. You know, to, to increase a herd, you need recruitment of 20, 22, 23%, whether it's bighorn sheep, whether it's elk, whether it's mule deer, whether it's whitetail. Okay, well, now we're harvesting. And if, and if you look at the, again, WAFWA data, it's like 1 to 3% is the average male offtake. So, so we're already managing to a super conservative harvest.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

So Montana does. Then the legislature comes through and says, hey, we're going to raise money for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Park. We're going to authorize one auction tag, one Ravel tag and add two. So if we can go back to Sean Stewart's presentation where he's saying, hey, look, even in the three to four to five unlimited areas with a, with a quota of two per unit, if they go over one year by two or three or four, biologically insignificant, I'm not concerned about. So to your point, we're already managing super conservatively on bighorn sheep that those one to two, Wyoming's got five. Nevada, you know, five bighorn sheep permits they authorize on auction. They then have, you know, they have their commissioner tags, but those aren't for bighorn sheep. Those are elk, mule deer, pronghorn moose. I think there's a moose tag. Not, not a commissioner. So it, you were absolutely correct that these are additive. And what's amazing is when you look at, you know, and you. We sold, you know, we're $192,000 in Montana. In 2023, we sold the tag. We directed $288,000 on the auction tag to Fish, Wildlife and Parks. That adds to their 192. We did a raffle back then too. It was 1:25. So 125,000 for a raffle. We double it, more than double it for the auction tag and then add that to the resident license. Still not a lot of money.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, American history buffs. Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridgerton, Jed Smith and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interact with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, this new Mountain man edition about the beaver skin trademark is available for pre order now wherever audiobooks are sold. It's called Meat Eaters American History the Mountain Men 1806-1840 by me, Stephen Rinella.

[Brody Henderson]

So hit me with the, hit me with the amount. Hit me with the amount that went in the tag and license fees for the public draw versus like the amount.

[Gray Thornton]

192,250 in 2023 for 656 tags and.

[Brody Henderson]

Then the auction tag.

[Gray Thornton]

Then we add one more auction tag. We added another 288, added one raffle tag. 125. So I guess the, you know, but you're so right. I mean, so here's the thing that I guess frustrates us on this side. There's not a financial argument that you can make to say that it's the wrong thing to do. So it really is a social justice argument. And, and so, you know, I can get all the statistics that'll say that. Look. And, you know, it's additive. It's not. It's not. You know, I'm a regular guy. Am I going to be able to buy one of these tags? Nah, not unless I rob a whole hell of a lot of liquor stores or win the lottery. But I'll tell you what I'm thrilled with, and that is that somebody is willing to do that. And because of that money, it's offering more opportunity for regular guys and regular gals like me. So, you know, that's the crux of the argument. And then I, you know, when we dive into the social side of it, because there is. It's a. And it's sad. I mean, if, you know, if. I mean, I drive a 2017 Toyota pickup truck. You know what? It works. It's got 156,000 miles on it. I drive by somebody who's got one of those new GMC at 4s. Boy, that looks slick.

[Brody Henderson]

You must have been.

[Gray Thornton]

Do I have to have that? Am I, you know, am I envious? Well, I. I don't know. I, like, well, maybe one of these days. But my truck still pulls my trailer. I'm okay. So I look at these guys or gals that are buying these tags, and I'm. I'm grateful because it's wildlife, philanthropy.

[Brody Henderson]

Let me hit you with this, though, okay? One's good. Okay, where is 10 good? Like. Like, if it's, if it's financial, if it's strictly financial, how far would you extend that logic? Like, if there's 600 tags, would you start to feel uncomfortable if we auctioned 500 of them?

[Gray Thornton]

You know, what you're going to have is law of diminishing returns. And we saw that in Alberta where they thought, you know, Alberta was, you know, that's where the big sheep were.

[Brody Henderson]

And so like in a very specific place too, right?

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, well, yeah, it was. And it was Catamount. You know, it was around the Cataman Mine.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, that's right.

[Gray Thornton]

And. And so they're basically, you know, park sheep coming out, if they come out, or they can just hang and you could sit there and er, guy, there's, you know, there's a specific rock. I think it's called Hot Rock or something like that, that these people would literally beeline from the trailhead, get to Hot Rock, and then just wait and see if these big rams would come out of the park. I think it's Jasper national park. And sometimes they would, sometimes they wouldn't. But they're big sheep, and, you know, the prior hunted world record was taken there. And so that's where people were chasing that tag, and that's where those dollars went. Well, Alberta at one point thought, hmm, you know, maybe we can. Maybe we can make even more money. So they started adding more and more auction tags and even, even some more LEH tags to that same area. And then you had a hunting experience that wasn't exactly the. The most enjoyable. Everyone's making a beeline for Hot Rock, and then they're all sitting around the rock waiting, you know, for a big sheep to come out of the park. So I'm, I'm, I'm being a little facetious, but, you know, that's basically it. So you can have a law of diminishing returns. Really interesting. This year, Arizona last year chose their commission.

[Brody Henderson]

That's my next question. You're doing my next question?

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, Arizona.

[Brody Henderson]

Can I do the question?

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, please.

[Brody Henderson]

Did Arizona get rid of Governor's tax?

[Gray Thornton]

They did.

[Brody Henderson]

They did take it away.

[Gray Thornton]

They got rid of governor's tags, and they're going to a raffle.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Gray Thornton]

So while Chief foundation was given the last desert bighorn sheep tag to sell on auction, unless there's a commission change and, you know, I mean, it's politics at this point. We are also given a pronghorn antelope tag. Last year we sold the Arizona tag. I think it was for 420. 400. I think I have that data. What did we sell that tag for? Yeah, 430. $430,000. 100% of those dollars go right back to Arizona Game and Fish. This year we sold it for five. $500,000. Crazy.

[Brody Henderson]

Really.

[Gray Thornton]

You want to really go nuts? We sold the Arizona pronghorn tag in 2024 for $95,000. A pronghorn tag, the last one going to be on auction, sold for $215,000. 100% of those dollars go right back to Arizona Game of Fish. Now, now it's going to go to raffles. We all know that you're not going to make the same amount of money. Organizations NGOs in Arizona balked and didn't even apply for these tags, while Chief foundation looked at it and said, you know, I mean, we Could. We could thump our chests and go, aren't we great? You know, we're. We're selling these tags for unbelievable amount of money. You're not doing what we want, so we're not going to play your game. We didn't. We thought, no, let's. Let's have a seat at the table. We'd rather be at the table and talking and doing something good for wildlife. So we applied for their bighorn tag, and we're going to raffle that off. I think it's sold at Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, who, who we partner with in Arizona on. On the desert bighorn tag. On the Arizona pronghorn tag. Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society sold the bighorn tag last year at their. Their banquet in May. 350. $360,000. We'll probably, through a raffle, be able to direct 125, 150,000 to Arizona Game Fish versus the 350 or 360, and then you compare it to the 500. And then we get into the equity of raffles. And that's a question I'd love to ask is those that think that raffles are equitable need to look a little deeper. Dive there. A Washington resident can't purchase an online raffle outside of his or her state.

[Brody Henderson]

Because of gambling law.

[Gray Thornton]

Gambling law.

[Doug]

Is this a similar thing? What we went through and we both perched. We weren't physically in the state of Arizona.

[Brody Henderson]

I don't know if that was a gambling law or just a rule.

[Gray Thornton]

No, it's. So in Washington, it's. It's their. It's their state gaming commission.

[Brody Henderson]

They regard that as gambling.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah. Now, if you're in state, you can do an in state, but if we're out of state, we can't sell. Arizona got burned on this. Arizona has a super tag. And they've pretty much. They used to sell that. They did exceptionally well on those. They were selling them out of state. They got a call from the gaming commission of Washington state saying, hey, you're selling to Washington residents. Yeah, we sure are. You know, great opportunity for them. We're raising money for profit. And they said, you're violating our state gaming laws.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, my God.

[Gray Thornton]

You gotta refund that money. Corinne and I were talking about the pandemic. Wild Sheep foundation got kind of clever during the pandemic. We're all fighting to figure out how the hell are we going to raise money. We. We actually sourced out of doa. A. A virtual Qatar. Yes, a virtual expo thing. Rather interesting. We had to change all the avatars. There were no blonde people in. In this. In this expo thing, but that's a whole. And no cowboy hats and no ball caps. So, you know, Brody, they, you know, we could not find a ball cap in. In this. This cutter application. But I digress a little bit. But what was really interesting is, so we said, okay, we're basically selling a ticket to sit in front of your MacBook or your PC and watch our show. Our auctions online, those are easy to do. Expo a little more difficult. And you know what? To incentivize you to buy this ticket, we'll put you in a drawing for a desert bighorn sheep hunt. Fair enough. You know, all you have to do is buy the ticket and you're. You're in the drawing, and somebody is going to win a desert bighorn sheet punt. I get a call from Washington Gaming Commission, and they said, hey, you're. You're conducting a raffle. And I went, we're not conducting a raffle. What. You know, what are you. I finally figured out what. I said, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, no, you've got some registration thing. You're giving away a desert bighorn sheep hunt. Yeah, yeah. He said, well, you can't do that in Washington. You're based in Montana. I said, well, actually, we're kind of clever. We run our programs for our raffles out of Wyoming. But this isn't a raffle, so this is just a registration thing. He says, you're still breaking our gaming laws. There's been a complaint against you.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, my God. Really?

[Gray Thornton]

We had to refund $27,000 in registrations we had to make. To make it at least fair to our Washington folks that wanted to participate. We just said, hey, we're refunding your money, and if you want to attend our virtual convention, you can do so for free. Well, that happened in Arizona.

[Brody Henderson]

These are the people that banned fishing during the pandemic.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, go figure. So the laws are so crazy. You know, look at. You know, Montana's an interesting one. We accept on raffle checks, cash, debit cards, not credit cards. So if you're conducting a raffle in Montana, you gotta make sure that your system knows that that Visa that somebody just sent you was a debit card, not a credit card. And we've been stung on that one. Arizona got stung. Their super raffle got stung really, really bad by Washington. So now. And Brody, I think you touched on it. Now, Arizona is only conducting their. I forget what they're calling it now. It's not the, it's not the super tags, but in state. So now you have a. And, and Steve, you touched on that. You know, now you have got boned.

[Brody Henderson]

Out of 100 bucks a piece.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Corinne]

So conservation quit.

[Gray Thornton]

Your raffles aren't as. Raffles are not as equitable donated as they may sound.

[Brody Henderson]

Let's back up to Arizona because really this decision that came out of Arizona drove this whole conversation.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, right.

[Brody Henderson]

I mean, we've definitely over the years have touched on it. I have always been like, I've always been torn by the issue recognizing the money, but then also, you know, like, I recognize the tremendous amount of money that goes to conservation and I also recognize the kind of populist rage against like, who the hell has $400,000 to buy a sheep tag and why does he get one? But I don't, I recognize both sides of this. But what really fueled this renewed conversation was Arizona's decision, the commission decision. And it came to a vote and they said that going into the future, we're going to step away from doing auction tags.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

Like, what's your understanding of, of, of that process? Like, like what were the inputs they were looking at? Was it, was it primarily social pressure?

[Gray Thornton]

I, I would say it's social pressure is probably the biggest one. The revenue side was certainly expressed. I was actually asked to do a video for their commission by the chair. We did, we did a six minute version. We did cut it down to a three minute version. Talked about how much money is raised for Arizona, what will happen to a bighorn sheep. But, you know, now you look at that pronghorn, $215,000. What will happen to pronghorn conservation? What's going to happen? You know, is there anyone in this room that can tell me that there's an agency that has too much money? From a wildlife agency standpoint, you know, maybe, maybe a few government agencies we'd like to cut out. But you know, from a wildlife agency in the United States, everyone's clamoring for more dollars. You know, we need more biologists, we need more trucks, we need more uniforms, we need more habitat improvement, you know, all of that. So it wasn't a money thing. There was some pressure from some groups that really do think the raffle is the way to go. Because of Stephen. Exactly what you said. It's an envy thing. It is a polarization thing. And we see it in all walks of life, whether it's a guy that's lauding and applauding somebody's home in Pacific Palisades being burned because, you know, he or she is pursued to be rich. And I'm not, You know, I, I don't buy into that, but I, I recognize it. You know, I recognize there's also. And it's been said, well, this is, you know, this is a, this is against the North American Wildlife Conservation model. Shane Mahoney and I are really, really close friends and we share a stage around the world on giving speeches and the like. I used to, in my presentations call this auction tag, Governor's tag, special permit, conservation permit. I used to call it a bastardization of the North American egalitarian model. I said, ah, you know, this is. But it raises all this money.

[Brody Henderson]

You used to say that.

[Gray Thornton]

I used to say it. And I said, oh, it's a bastardization of the model, but it works.

[Doug]

How long ago was that?

[Gray Thornton]

Shane and I were in my drift boat on the Yellowstone eight years ago. He and his wife, he's, you know, said, hey, let me float you down to Yellowstone. You're such a busy guy. Why don't you fly fish a little bit? And you know, typical, typical Shane, he just kind of puts the rod down. He's looking around. And then in that voice of Moses, you know, gray, I want to tell you something. You're wrong. I went, all right, wrong a lot. Every single day. What am I wrong at this time? He goes, you know, I've heard you on stage call this governor's tag, conservation permit model a bastardization of the North American model. And you're wrong. I said, well, you being the foremost spokesperson for the model, tell me why. And he says, you know, one of the pillars of the model is state and agency determination of how is the most efficient way for them to raise money for wildlife. If a state determines that a auction tag or a raffle tag or come up with whatever program it is, is the most efficient mechanism, well, then that's consistent with the model. We just did a permit discussion at our, at our sheep show in our Full Curl cinema, had Shane, my EVP of conservation, Corey Mason, myself, doing a Q and A afterwards. And Shane said it again. He goes, you know, this is consistent with the model. The challenge is the social license. And Steve, it's what you said, and you cannot discount that. You know, I could certainly talk about a way to look at it that maybe will sway some views on it, but there is just a built in, you know, even though it's additive, even though it's driving 83% of the conservation dollars for wild sheep at the agency, level in our country, there's still this. Well, so what? I don't care about the money. It's just not fair somebody is able to buy something that I can't. Well, you know, I guess I look at that and I mentioned the term wildlife philanthropy. You know, you look at a high net worth individual and we applaud when there's a name on a hospital wing because they donated a potload of money to that hospital or they donated to feeding the hungry or to the welfare of pets or a football stadium or an art museum. And we applaud that philanthropy. Well, this, in my opinion, is wildlife philanthropy. Why don't we applaud that?

[Brody Henderson]

Because they're getting, because they would get universally applauded if they weren't taking the tag. If some guy got up at your convention in Reno and some guy said, hey, man, no strings attached, I don't want for it. Here's $500,000 for wild sheep in Arizona.

[Doug]

100,000 for raffle, as opposed.

[Brody Henderson]

That'd be the, that'd be the response. I mean, like, if you're actually asking the question, that would be why? And it again, it's like, so the.

[Gray Thornton]

Name on the building.

[Brody Henderson]

Doesn't.

[Gray Thornton]

Doesn't. Isn't. Isn't an accolade too. And I get it.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, it is, you know, when it's in a market. But I don't think, like, if, if Verizon underwrites a sports stadium as a marketing play, I don't think that Verizon is applauded.

[Gray Thornton]

No, they're recognized.

[Brody Henderson]

It's like, it's like sort of there's a, there's a quid pro quo to it. It's like, yes, they're underwriting the sports stadium, but it's like a marketing expense. So if you could somehow get into a guy's head who's buying a sheep tag for $400,000 and he was going to go write the check anyway because he believes that much in, in wild sheep. But then, like, as a little added perk. Got a tag, too. I think that that would, that would diminish some of the social condemnation. But I don't think people are looking at it. If talking about people who feel burned by governor's tags, I don't think they're looking at it that it was a donation. I think they're looking at it that it was a purchase.

[Doug]

I think you're looking at the psychology of it.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

Like. Right. And they are. They're certainly getting a benefit back.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

Even if they don't take the sheep. And that certainly happened. I mean, a good friend of mine from Texas, back in the day in Alberta, I think he bought the tag. He bought it two or three times and didn't take a sheep once. There was another guy that was always chasing him. He's since passed, and I think he bought it at least three times. Didn't take a sheep twice. So I see your point.

[Brody Henderson]

And it presumably had opportunities to get.

[Gray Thornton]

Well, but you're getting an opportunity. Well, you're getting an opportunity with no guarantee. And I look back, I look back on the guy that ended up buying that record Montana tag in 2013, because I felt that my $750 tag back when Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks had $120 in revenue coming in from me and others, us regular folks, and they got 90% of $480,000 that my ability to hunt sheep in Montana was because some crazy guy was willing to spend that money. He made an interesting comment to me. I thanked him, and he says, great, here's the deal. I give to my church. I give to. He had another, you know, kind of pet charity he gives to, and he goes and I give to wild sheep conservation. Yes. Now, does he get a spiritual benefit from giving to his church? You bet. Does he, you know, it's a little bit more than my 20 bucks in the. In the tray. Does he get a benefit satisfaction out of giving to, you know, in this case, they were homeless shelters or something like that? Sure. Does he get a benefit from buying that sheep tag? Yes, he does, but I know. I did, too. As the regular guy. I benefited because he chose to direct his philanthropy towards conservation, not a football stadium. So, yeah, that's a good point, though, Steve.

[Brody Henderson]

This show is sponsored in part by Better Help Now, a lot of times you hear people talk about something called red flags, Right. These are things you should avoid in conversation or whatever. Like. Like subjects you bring up that you know are not going to go well. Well, what if people started focusing more.

[Stephen Rinella]

On looking for green flags with their friends and partners?

[Brody Henderson]

If you're not sure what green flags.

[Stephen Rinella]

Look like, therapy can help you identify.

[Brody Henderson]

Them and then help you actively practice.

[Stephen Rinella]

Them in your relationships so you can embody green flag energy yourself. Whether you're dating, married, building a friendship.

[Brody Henderson]

Or just working on yourself, it's time.

[Stephen Rinella]

To form relationships that are constructive with.

[Brody Henderson]

People that love you back.

[Stephen Rinella]

Now, you might think that therapy is.

[Brody Henderson]

Just for people that have suffered massive trauma. It is, but it's also for anybody.

[Stephen Rinella]

Who'S setting out to try to improve.

[Brody Henderson]

Their life and improve their relationships with your partner, your kids, whoever. And BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient.

[Stephen Rinella]

Serving over 5 million people worldwide.

[Brody Henderson]

You can access a diverse network of.

[Stephen Rinella]

More than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties and easily switch.

[Brody Henderson]

Therapists anytime, no extra cost.

[Stephen Rinella]

Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.commee eater to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.

[Brody Henderson]

H E-L-P.commeater let's change. Let's change course a little bit. In conversations with people who. Who are suspicious of. Critical of. Of auction tags, a common thing people point out is, and I've pointed it out myself, is that in some cases you get a season that's way longer.

[Gray Thornton]

You bet.

[Brody Henderson]

Like potentially 365 days long.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

You sit outside of the unit thing. So Joe Blow draws a tag and he might have. He might have an area 10 by 20 miles, whatever the hell. Smaller. That's his hunt unit. The auction tag holder can hunt any unit that's open in the whole damn state. Right.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

And so people look and they'll be like, why is that? Why this amazing perk to wealth? Like, even once we have. The tags are like, I won mine on the open tag allotment. He bought his. But his is better than mine.

[Corinne]

And something to build on what Steve is saying. Like, I want listened to a con conversation at a Rocky Mountain Elk foundation thing in Colorado where someone had drawn a bighorn ram tag in a unit where there was only one tag. And he spent a bunch of time scouting. And there was a real big one.

[Brody Henderson]

I was gonna ask you tell the story.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

He on his. On his way in scouting one day, kind of a posse of dudes are coming down the trail and he's like, hey, you know, they strike up a conversation. He's like, I got. I drew the tag. I'm looking for this ram. And they were basically like, don't bother. Like, we're. We're guiding the governor's tag guy. And they know when the season opens and they're like, we're going to get that thing before you ever have a chance to get it. It wasn't like an impolite conversation, but.

[Brody Henderson]

It was a heads up.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Because he had his team of. He had his team of guides.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

So there's like a social conflict there.

[Gray Thornton]

You bet. You bet. And that, that in my opinion, is the dirty underbelly and. And is something that if, if we are to retain the social license to have these, we need to be able to answer those. And I would say right now we don't.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, why can't you answer it this way? Well, let me provide you with a hypothetical answer. Not hypothetical, but I mean, wouldn't it be if we as hunters are agreeing that auctioning off a tag for several hundred thousand dollars creates more sheep opportunities for everybody, potentially leads to bigger bighorn populations so that there's more tags available in the general draw? We got healthier sheep herds, we got healthier sheep hunting. If we can make that tag even more valuable and it's still only costing us one sheep, why not do everything we can do to make it more valuable? Well, like if you said if you auction a tag off and you go, you got seven days, right. All of a sudden the price is probably going to plummet without question. And so, I mean, but I feel like I'm not saying that that's ultimately the answer, but that's kind of how I look at it would be, well, if we're going to do it, we're going to give away a sheep tag. I don't know, get the most money you can out of the son of a bitch. And if you need to make the season longer and that jacks it up by a hundred thousand dollars.

[Gray Thornton]

Okay, well. And you nailed it. And if, you know, going back to the prior podcast and the title, our governor's tags on American. Well, no, that was a good title. No, these conservation permits and these governor's tags are absolutely American because it's based on supply and demand and an interest in capitalistic process. Now, you know that, that was my argument as well. It's against the egalitarian North American model. Shane, Shane corrected me. But Stephen, you're absolutely right. But the, the, the dirty underbelly is perception.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

And, and if, you know, Arizona is a 365day, you know, being intellectually honest, you know, we, we like to give breeding populations time off. You know, now Montana hunts during the rut for mule deer. We off, you know, we archery hunt in the rut for elk and others. Typically bighorn sheep are not in the rut. There's some that seasons that there, there could be certainly these, these conservation permits that either are extended season, earlier season or any unit opens it up to going right back to that social question. Social license question on. Well, how come it's that much different? Well, why is it that much different? Because that's what increases the price. Classic example is Alberta. You know, they, they made which, you know, some could say were some mistakes, you know, back in the 90s and they were just offering too many tags. Price started to go down and they're going, geez, you know, we used to be the big dog. Now Montana is now New Mexico is. Arizona was. I mean, you know, it's. Colorado was last year. I mean, it's kind of amazing when you, when you look at, you know, where the big dollars are coming in on these, on these conservation permits. But two years ago, can I stop you from.

[Corinne]

Does the dollar, does the amount change based on where the big ram is that year?

[Gray Thornton]

Without question?

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Yeah, that's on my mental list of things.

[Gray Thornton]

Which is, which is a dirty underbelly.

[Doug]

Can I also ask, with the fewer, a lower number of available tags per state, does the number also go up?

[Gray Thornton]

Probably. I couldn't, I couldn't. You know, what we're seeing now is.

[Doug]

Just kind of like, just, you know.

[Gray Thornton]

You look at, you look at what's been really interesting is, you know, kind of ground zero for disease has been in the tri state area, Idaho, Washington, Oregon. Our chapter's in the region, the agency's in the region. Wild Sheep foundation has pumped millions of dollars into disease, disease research, into kind of some novel separation policies and some draconian policies like test and remove. We kind of.

[Corinne]

You're talking pneumonia, correct?

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, yeah. Mycoplasma pneumonia is a setup agent. It's a pathogen. And what it does is it can lead to ammonia. Pneumonia primarily comes from domestic sheep, also domestic goats. It can be within a wild sheep population, so it can be endemic once they get it from a, you know, from a vector, a source. Domestic sheep or goat. Well, we've, we've done collectively a pretty damn good job of. At one point, we eliminated mycoplasma ova pneumonia from the Hells Canyon complex. Better lamb recruitment, big rams, big, you know, and that's just, that's just healthy sheep. Now, Oregon tag selling like crazy. Idaho tag selling like, you know, new state records taken in Oregon, Idaho, Washington. So, you know, there's just this dynamic.

[Brody Henderson]

The buyers are like, this is a point, I think that is important to get support and to cover because it's part of what, it's part of the social conversation being. Yeah, one, one. When an auction tag comes up, oftentimes the buyer is basically buying an opportunity to go get a specific sheep that he has been made aware of by his outfitter. Yeah, they're like, look here we got a 200 inch ram. You'll get to get it before the public. We. Here, here's a dossier. Here's all the photos of it. You buy it, you hire us our guy. Our guys will keep an eye on it. We'll put six, seven guys out and watch it. You show up, boom, it's yours, because we're already on it. And that burns people's ass.

[Gray Thornton]

It does. And that. And. And I would call, you know, in that scenario, that is a dirty under bella belly. Now, now you've got another scenario. And.

[Brody Henderson]

But is that the T. But that. But again, is that the tag's fault?

[Gray Thornton]

No, it's not. It's our fault. It's the. You know, let's push the envelope on fair chase, which we need to clean up now. You know, here's the flip side of that, and I'll tell you a little bit about the guy that bought the $1.3 million New Mexico tag two weeks ago. What? 1.3. 1.3.

[Brody Henderson]

So a New Mexico sheep tag went for 1.3.

[Corinne]

Desert bighorn, right?

[Gray Thornton]

Is it Rocky Mountain?

[Brody Henderson]

Is that a new record?

[Gray Thornton]

Absolute new record. Holy cow.

[Brody Henderson]

Is he gunning for a specific sheep?

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, he's gunning first, but I'm going to tell you a story about him and what he said. So.

[Brody Henderson]

Holy smokes.

[Gray Thornton]

1.3 million.

[Brody Henderson]

Now, that's at a point where that's getting suspiciously philanthropic.

[Gray Thornton]

So, yeah, almost Steve. So there. There was a period of time where, you know, everyone was chasing very, very large stone sheep. So the B.C. minister's license, which is kind of a unique license because. And there is a raffle tag, too, but there's one. There's a. There's a minister's license on auction. There's a minister's license on raffle. The minister's license. In B.C. you can hunt. They've got four, you know, subspecies, if you will, but, you know, three species. They've got Dall sheep, stone sheep, bighorn sheep, but a bighorn sheep, they got California bighorn and Rocky Mountain bighorn.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, I got confused. I'm sorry.

[Gray Thornton]

So there's. There's a. There's a subspecies of bighorn sheep called California bighorn.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, but who has. All of them?

[Gray Thornton]

British Columbia, they have those. The only thing they don't have is desert, but they have four. Four wild sheep species. Dalls, Stones, dolls. And it's a teeny little area up in the far northwest corner, adjacent to Alaska, lower part of Alaska. So they have Dalls. They are the location for stone sheep. Other than fanning up in the Yukon. They have California bighorn, that's primarily.

[Brody Henderson]

That's what I was unaware of, is that like on the west coast, it's.

[Gray Thornton]

In the Fraser River Valley. Got it. And then, and then bighorn sheep, okay. Around Fernie and the like.

[Brody Henderson]

So no idea.

[Gray Thornton]

So you can buy that tag and you can choose. You can choose which sheep you want to hunt. So, you know, years past, it used to be they'd chase a bighorn. Now it was, hey, we're going to. You're going to be able to hunt early and late for stone sheep. And stone sheep was the hot item. That permit went for 300, some odd thousand dollars. There was a sheep that, you know, a couple of big ones that people were known, you know, knew that were around, this guy knew that they were around. They're all killed in an avalanche.

[Brody Henderson]

Seriously.

[Gray Thornton]

C'est la vie. So now let's go back to the. Let's go back to the. Yeah. There's like a pile of four sheep killed in an avalanche, all four of the big ones. It's like, hey, that ram you were chasing, no longer. No way. But congratulations, that's philanthropic.

[Brody Henderson]

So now, did he petition for a refund?

[Stephen Rinella]

You gotta be kidding.

[Gray Thornton]

Don't. No refund.

[Brody Henderson]

Can I, can I. I gotta explain something to folks. I'm trying to keep this real one on one. Just to point out something obvious. The reason 365 days a year is enticing for sheep is because they don't shed their antlers. We should point that out. So, like, right, if you're, if you're hunting elk, let's say you're buying a governor's tag for elk. Like that elk's gonna get maximum size and get hard antlered in September, late August, early September, and he's gonna drop his antlers down the road in March. Right. So if you had 365 days, and maybe you do, it doesn't really matter, right. Because you're chasing a. How many months is that? September, October, November, December, January, February. You got half, half the year he's going to have that.

[Corinne]

And any antlered species could just bust them up.

[Brody Henderson]

That's. Yep. And he could also snap them.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

And in a lot of those big bulls, especially in the, in the desert southwest, do snap them off. So like. But a sheep, I mean, by the time he's the kind of sheep we're talking about, this sheep is 9 years old, 10 years old, 11 years old, but he's got him, he's carrying his rack year round. You shoot him in April, he's got the same. He's got.

[Gray Thornton]

That's right.

[Brody Henderson]

The same attributes as if you shoot them in November.

[Gray Thornton]

They're horns, not antlers. So, you know, they wear their life on their head.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

So let's now go to the gentleman that bought, you know, which is now the record for any permit. 1.3 million. I was visiting with him last week, thanking him, you know, wow, Incredible. You know, how the heck did that happen? I mean, 300,000 is a lot of money. 1.3 is. I like what you said.

[Brody Henderson]

That's starting to film throughout.

[Gray Thornton]

Kind of pretty close to. You want to wing. You want to wing on that hospital? And he says, you know, I knew it was going to go over a million dollars. I want it to go over a million dollars. I'm happy. You know, season opens August 1st for me. I sure hope a mountain lion doesn't get it. But it is what it is. That's famous last word philanthropic. That is a guy, and he's done very, very well, obviously, in life. And crazy enough, I think there were three bidders in at 1.2. So.

[Brody Henderson]

And at one point, those guys like, enough is enough.

[Gray Thornton]

Just amazing. I mean, you can imagine the energy in the room when you see that.

[Brody Henderson]

Tell me about the sheep. Yeah, I was like, what's the sheep.

[Corinne]

They know why so much of this year and not after that sheep last year.

[Gray Thornton]

There's A, you know, 200 points is kind of the.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

The holy grail. And so there's. There is a. Yeah. You know, there is the thought that the largest bighorn in North America is in New Mexico is alive right now. So there you go. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

He's got a price on his head.

[Gray Thornton]

And so let me ask you, is that unseemly? Well, I guess. But, you know, Steve, you pointed out that, hey, if the goal is to raise the most money for the resource, well, this is how we're going to do it. Now we just need to make sure that it's ethical. You know, the view. And Brody, I think you touched on everything. If there's like 10 guys, you know, out on a mountain and they're, you know, they're camping on the sheep, it doesn't smell right and it doesn't look right.

[Brody Henderson]

But it's not illegal.

[Gray Thornton]

No, it isn't.

[Brody Henderson]

You're never going to get there. You're never going to enforce. You're never going to create a. You're never going to create a secondary set of laws that someone's going to have to apply to. Now, let me give you for Instance, me and Brody go hunt with our little kids. Okay. Some of them, at a certain age, they can shoot before they're like, terribly helpful.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

They don't know, even when we leave home, a 10 year old, they're not even really aware of what direction you're heading. Okay, so we're out with our kids. So and so sees a buck, he tells another growing up, he sees the buck, you know, we tell the kid, you know, you drag the kid out of their sleeping bag. We gotta start walking. They don't really know, Right. Eventually you're like, there he is, get him.

[Gray Thornton]

Right?

[Brody Henderson]

Okay. So would someone go, that's unethical. That kid, that child didn't work glass. They didn't scout, they didn't glass that buck up. Right, Right. So you're never going to get there where you're going to come in and be that. Operating within the confines of the law, we would expect it to be different. Meaning if I apply for 25 years and I draw a bighorn tag and all my buddies at work and I could see this happening.

[Corinne]

Oh, yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

All my buddies at work are like, oh, man, what a riot. And three of us go up in jet boats, right? And we pour the coals to it, glass and for sheep. And one of my buddies comes into camp, he's like, we found a giant.

[Corinne]

You're not gonna be like, I want to find it myself.

[Stephen Rinella]

I'm not gonna wind up being like.

[Brody Henderson]

Raked over the coals about it. It would be like, no, they went up. But. But there's a thing that happens where there's like, there's already a financial bitterness. And then on top of that, there's a added bunch of what seems to be like shortcut taking. Right. And it tarnishes the thing. Yeah, but, but in people's eyes. But then in all fairness, like, are you really going to make a separate set of game laws for an auction tag holder that you wouldn't make for a guy that bought a. But that bought an elk hunt from an outfitter?

[Corinne]

Well, they do, in some cases, they do make a separate set.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, they extend the season, like, but, you know, and that does. It just, it gets back to this, you know, what is the public perception and what's, what's, you know, what is the real grind? And again, I, you know, there's organizations that are, well, we just have to go to, you know, raffle tags because that's more equitable. Well, so then the person wins the raffle tag. Is there also a team of guides that go in probably so, yeah. So what's the difference there? You know, I, you know, and there are crazy things that have happened. I've heard of the raffle tag winners outfitter calling the conservation permit Outfitter, saying, I'll tell you what, if your guy writes my guy a check for X amount of dollars, we'll let you go after that guy and we'll go after a second. No, now that to me stinks. And that's almost extortion.

[Brody Henderson]

Right?

[Gray Thornton]

And so, you know, and it's, and this gets back to the social thing too. You know, anytime that, you know, a super high price is put on a resource, there's going to be challenges to that, you know, and we know it. So, you know, where the Wild Sheep foundation looks at this as, okay, we're raising the most money for a resource that's got challenge. You know, whether it's disease in the lower 48, whether it's drought in the Southwest, whether it's super heavy wet snowfalls up in Alaska and the Yukon and Dall sheep are starving. And in some mountain ranges, we've lost 40 to 50 to 60% of the population. How do we bring them back? You know, we're always looking for, okay, how can we raise the most money to do it? How can we put that money on the mountain? How are we going to fund disease research? So we see it, we do it. Wild Sheep Foundation's directed since that first governor's tag, Ed Herschler's Wyoming governor's tag that sold for $23,000 in 1980. We have put about $89 million back into agencies for wild sheep conservation just on the sale of conservation permits. It's very, very effective. What I think we should be, instead of us arguing on the, well, you know, that guy or gal gets a privilege that I don't. I would like us to do a better job of making sure that the dollars that are directed to the agencies are going where they should. And Steve, I think you asked that question early on and we didn't touch on it because there's some agencies that do it an exceptionally good job and are very transparent of where that money goes. And there's some that aren't so. Wyoming, Wyoming has the Wyoming Governor's Big Game License Coalition. So all the, you know, the five sheep tags, you know, any of the, the elk tags, any of the moose tags go into this pool, but they're separated out by species. And then, and then stakeholders, you know, Wyoming Wild Sheep foundation has a seat on that. Rocky Mountain Elk foundation has a seat on that. A mule deer foundation has a seat on that coalition. The pronghorn guys, all the little critter groups have a seat. They then evaluate projects that are brought before the big Game License coalition to say, hey, we want to fund a sagebrush habitat project that's going to benefit mule deer, certainly sagehands, maybe less so on bighorn sheep. Well, sometimes those stakeholder groups will go, you know, we got plenty of money on the bighorn sheep pool. Let's pull a little bit out. And collectively we agree we're going to fund mule deer conservation. British Columbia does the same thing with their habitat conservation Trust. You know, the monies that we raise for the B.C. ministry go into this pool. There are a group of stakeholders. Wildstreet foundation has a seat, but we have a representative that's from B.C. and they make decisions on where those monies are spent.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, that's transparent.

[Gray Thornton]

Very transparent. Nevada, another one that does it really, really well. Some of them not so well. And, and with all the challenges and.

[Brody Henderson]

Can you say who. Can you give an example of a bad one?

[Gray Thornton]

Or is that.

[Brody Henderson]

Is that not.

[Gray Thornton]

Probably not a good thing for me to say because we partner with all of them. So let me just talk about the good ones. But there's some that could do better.

[Brody Henderson]

And they do omission.

[Gray Thornton]

We can. Yeah, we could bleep it maybe. But, you know, the, the fact of the matter is, you know, again, I can show your Wild Sheep foundation spends our dollars. I mean, we do these conservation impact summaries. You know, we're absolutely transparent agencies. Not so. So that's something that I think, you know, we, as NGOs, whether it's wild Sheep foundation, whether it's mule deer, whether it's elk, whether it's, you know, any of the organizations that are selling these conservation permits and driving the money back to the agencies, we need to do a better job of holding our agencies accountable, going, okay, where is the money? Where is it going? And is it going to the. The resource that it should?

[Corinne]

Yeah, I think that's important. Like something you said, that there's not enough sheep to pay for themselves. Like, I think a lot of people don't think about it that way.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Corinne]

But it makes total sense. Like, and you. Like a state like Montana or Colorado, you talk about elk. Like, those things pay for themselves and more. Right.

[Gray Thornton]

Brody? I wrote a paper back in the 80s, before I was in the nonprofit, and I was, you know, it was kind of the economics of hunting. And at the time, and I don't Know what it is now, but at the time I was looking at Colorado, I used to, I lived in California. I'd drive out to Colorado to hunt elk. And at the time, I think non resident Colorado elk tags funded like 80% of Colorado fish and game back then. Now it's Colorado Parks and Wildlife. But, you know, I mean, elk paid the way. And as we all know, you know, the non resident tags, you know, pay the wave primarily, you know, Montana, you know, what was it, $69,000, you know, $69,000 comes from residential bighorn sheep. 122 from non residents.

[Brody Henderson]

So for a much smaller amount of tags.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, almost double. I mean, you know, It's. We pay 100, what, 125 bucks for a sheep tag. You know, we can buy an unlimited, you know, so we can have that tag in our pocket. But if you draw one of the limited 125 bucks, it's 1750 for a non res. So that gets back to this social thing. And Steve, you know, I love it when you talk about it because, you know, look at what's happened to our country. You know, we've become so polarized. You know, we identify with pretty asinine things. You know, we allow the media to fester that polarization even within our own community. You know, we identify by what rifle we use and we criticize others that don't, you know, we, we identify what fricking camo we use and we create communities that if you're not a part of it and you don't wear my camo, you're a bad guy. Boots, you know, whatever.

[Doug]

So basic.

[Gray Thornton]

And it's like, I'm not hanging out.

[Brody Henderson]

With no 300 wind man.

[Doug]

But we have like a name for the guys who have 65 Creedmoors.

[Gray Thornton]

Oh yeah, the 65 need more, you know, and it's a great caliber, but I mean, it's, you know, we've taken the around the campfire arguing on whether the 3006 is better than the 270 to this level. It's just freaking asinine now. And, and so, you know, we fostered and now we're doing, you know, we do the same thing on the funding. And I guess, you know, I would just hope that we could change the narrative, you know, and start, you know, let's deal with facts. Okay, the facts are auction tags bring in more money than raffle tags at a far more efficient way of, I mean, for Wild Sheep foundation is going to raffle off an Arizona bighorn sheep tag. We get zero Dollars for doing. But we're going to do it. We're going to pay all that money to do it. We're going to raise 125, $150,000 directed to Arizona Game and Fish. Well, we held an auction. Now, you know, yeah, that's expensive for us, but we're, you know, we're four nights of auction and we raised 500,000. So we know that it's the most cost effective is an auction tag. But we still get caught up in this social narrative. So what I want to really dive into and that is that how do we get beyond it? How do we get beyond criticizing that guy because he wears camo or we don't like his brand or that gal because she's shooting a 65 Creedmoor, and we don't like that caliber to. Why don't we just focus again on that ram, lamb or ewe on a ridgeline and go what's best for wildlife?

[Corinne]

What would the bighorn sheep landscape in North America look like without this money?

[Gray Thornton]

Nailed it. Mic drop.

[Doug]

Can I, Can I mic drop?

[Gray Thornton]

Like we wouldn't have them.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Gray Thornton]

83% of agency funding right now in the US comes from these. What happens when 83 comes from an auction tag or raffle tag? Most of our. What happens when 83% of that funding goes away? Where is it going to come from?

[Doug]

Question. Do we have over time, let's say the past 10 years, from states that have sheep, the amount of money, let's say collectively across these states, from licenses both in state and out of state. And if that has gone up over the past 10 years or gone down as a sign of general hunter commitment to conservation of sheep.

[Gray Thornton]

Absolutely. On now, are you saying total? Because we all know that revenue is generally going down because generally hunting numbers are going down. Yes, we saw during the pandemic a bump up. Yes. We see the largest percentage of new hunters are women. Is, you know, is that a significant percentage of the current. You might be able to argue it, but it's. It's significant. But here's the sad fact, and this gets back to impact. I can show you a nice linear upward trend on dollars going into wild sheep conservation collectively. Crops.

[Doug]

Okay.

[Gray Thornton]

Collectively.

[Doug]

But the percentage of that. That is.

[Gray Thornton]

Oh, auction tax.

[Doug]

Right.

[Gray Thornton]

10% increase over the last 10 years. It was 73% in 2014. 83% in the U.S. so a 10% increase in auction tag revenues going to.

[Doug]

The agency and licenses.

[Gray Thornton]

Licenses not so. And that you could get us Fish and Wildlife Service data. And again, there's Been slight increases and then it kind of plateaus and then drops. My concern is there's a linear growth in revenue going to wild sheep conservation sadly over the last say five years or so because of huge die offs in Alaska and the Yukon. Some die offs during disease from in Texas. I mean Texas had 1800 desert bighorn sheep five, six years ago, little over 500 now, all because of disease from Audad. You know, there's 40,000 plus Audad in the state. Free ranging. I'm not even talking about behind wire. And we've gone from 1800 desert bighorns to less than 600. That scares the shit out of me. And so, you know, the point there is it gets back to impact and what are we doing with it and are we holding the agencies accountable? We can drive this money to them. Are we getting the bang for our buck? And that's for all of us to work on to ensure that we are. And money isn't everything. I mean it's certainly a driver, but we have to make sure that we're doing as much as we possibly can efficiently, effectively with that money. If we know what to do. How are we going to deal with snow load in March, April and Alaska? I don't know. You know that. I don't know. You know, I mean it gets back to even some crazy ideas. We grow desert bighorn sheep. We've done it in Texas, we've done.

[Brody Henderson]

It in Arizona, I mean just by putting water.

[Gray Thornton]

Water. But we've actually, we actually intensively managed them in Texas to bring them from 0 to 1800 to 2000. We did the same thing in Arizona.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, you mean like with, with release? With using release sites, Captive bread and release.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, I got you done in Mexico.

[Brody Henderson]

Literally growing them.

[Gray Thornton]

We're growing them. Sonora. Sonora is about 15,000 desert bighorn sheep in the state of Sonora alone. 50% of them are behind wire. We have an initiative to say, hey look, you know, let's use market forces to incentivize you to release them. And not a put and take scenario, but release them and create free ranging desert bighorn sheep and suitable habitat. And we've got great examples of people doing it. They're doing the same thing in Coahuila, they're doing it in Sierra Leone, they're doing it in Chihuahua. So we can do it with desert bighorn sheep with some caveats or some, there's some challenges to it. You know, this isn't, you know, raising whitetails in Michigan, but it can be done. Is that something that we could do in the northern climes? I don't know. But you know, you have a 40 to 50% drop in Dall sheep. You got probably a 10 to 15 to 20% drop in stone sheep populations for a whole variety of reasons. It's not over harvest. You know, it's more environmental factors or disease. What are we going to do? I'll tell you what. We need the money.

[Brody Henderson]

This is a whole other episode. But I think that if someone came in and proposed in Alaska doing, like, captive breeding, they'd be shot to juice. To juice Dall sheep numbers. I think that that would be like, you know, you'd have a bigger controversy on your hands than conservation tags. And your question, like, how do you find peace with it? There's a thing with. There's a thing in rhetoric that I've just. That there's an observation of mine when it comes to debate and rhetoric.

[Corinne]

That.

[Brody Henderson]

I've pointed out a handful of times around conversations having to do with. With the impacts of a. Of a border wall, okay, between US and Mexico. And when there's talk of building an impenetrable barrier between the US And Mexico to try to get a grip on illegal immigration, there's this thing you bring up that one would bring up. You'd say that would be detrimental. That would be detrimental to wildlife movements.

[Gray Thornton]

You bet.

[Brody Henderson]

So jaguars, desert bighorns, okay? That's a thing to consider. Now someone can bring up, hey, let's consider this. And people that are vehemently supportive of a wall would be angry that you brought it up, right? They'd be like, well, you haven't lost your job, okay, to an illegal immigrant. So they're angry that you're laying out all the facts for consideration. But in your own family, if you're proposing, like, hey, should we go on vacation this spring? In that conversation, someone can say, well, you realize if we go on vacation this spring, that's going to mean that we are going to forego painting our house because it costs money. Now, the person that brings that up isn't attacked. It's like you're all airing the pros and cons, right? And then you come to an agreement. All the pros and cons considered, we come to an agreement. Even though it's going to be detrimental to the wildlife movement, it is net positive to make an impenetrable barrier between the US And Mexico, let's say, or even though we'll forego painting our house, we're determining it's a net positive that we go on a Family vacation. I think ultimately the answer might be arrived at similarly around auction permits. It'd be like, it's imperfect. It's imperfect. One could argue that by auctioning off a tag, we're removing a. We're hypothetically removing a sheep from the pool. That's not perfect. The individual might use some hunting methods that aren't available to everybody else. That's imperfect. But net. Net. All things weighed in, the money is worth it. Like, that's probably the best you're going to do. Like, I don't think you're going to get it to where some guy reads online that someone bought a tag for 1.3 million. I don't think you're going to get it where one hunt or 100% of the hunters are. You're never going to get there.

[Gray Thornton]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

It's going to be that, like, the general sentiment is hate them rich guys, but. But that's a shitload of money for big horns.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah. And.

[Brody Henderson]

And in the long run, it's probably going to mean more tanks.

[Gray Thornton]

Right. There's one. There's one more net positive impact. And, and Steve, you're right. You're. You're absolutely spot on. There is another little thing that we have in this country that's not in others, which, which is the Pittman Robinson Act. And these tag purchases are non federal dollars. So they're subject and eligible for a 3 to 1 match with PNR Act. So, you know, we can draw, you know, we can send 1.3 million. You know, we're going to. We're going to get 10% of this, you know, 1.3 minus $130,000. We send that to New Mexico Game and Fish. They can apply for a three to one match from PNR act dollars for wildlife restoration and turn that into a $5 million bump. So, yeah, it is imperfect. It works. And I guess until we find something that works better, well, why don't we live with what does work? And it has worked really, really well from 1980. And the dollars are there and argue over what caliber is better or what camo you wear. That's a little bit more, you know, productive.

[Brody Henderson]

I think one of the final points we had arrived at when we had this conversation was a sense of, you know, sort of a sense of hope or a call to action, that people would open their checkbooks up, open their credit card balances up to support raffle tags, and that you would arrive at a point where these raffle tags were netting equal to or more than auction tags. And I think you kind of touched on this early, but if we. You don't think we're there?

[Gray Thornton]

Not yet, but, you know, we. During our, during this seminar, you know, there was a guy adamant on. Well, you know, are you. Are you working on it? Well, yeah, we are. We looked at, we looked at our raffles that we do at the convention, and we were selling $40 tickets. We could not physically sell enough tickets in three day of expo to cover the costs and really make a profit, if you will, which our profit goes right back into sheep conservation, on doing it that way. So we played the capitalists again. We go, okay, well, we're going to sell these not for $40. We're going to sell 1,000 tickets at $200. And then for the stone sheep, we're going to sell 500 tickets at $500. Is that too much? I think we figured out that it was, but we increased our raffle take. So what I pointed out in this seminar, that helped the raffle take big time. Big time.

[Brody Henderson]

So five bucks a pop isn't getting.

[Gray Thornton]

It doesn't work.

[Brody Henderson]

You can't process it.

[Gray Thornton]

You can't process enough. And $40 for us, we couldn't sell enough physically in three days to make it really profitable. You know what you want to do is you want a keystone or you want to double your money on each one of these things. Well, you know, very, very rare these days for anyone to donate. There's a few, but donate a sheep hunt, you know, you've got stone sheep hunts now selling for $100,000. Bighorn sheep hunt selling for 110 doll sheep. Used to be.

[Brody Henderson]

You're talking about outfitted hunts.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, $45,000. So, you know, on a dull sheep hunt, we need to sell, we need to make, you know, we need to sell at least $100,000 worth of tickets to double our money. A stone sheep, if we're buying it at face value, we got to sell $200,000. So, you know, we went to a different way. As I said in our seminar, if we can figure out a way to do it again, let's be intellectually honest. If our goal is to raise the most money, if we can find a way to raise the most money with a raffle, we'll do it. Because the objective is to raise the most money for the resource and for the habitat.

[Brody Henderson]

Can you. Can you humor this question for a minute? Yeah, the one that just went for 1.3 million, right? Walk me through what would. What would have happened? Walk me through. If you'd Done a raffle in your mind, the best way to do a raffle from your learnings. What would have. What would that sheep tag have generated?

[Gray Thornton]

Well, that was a big horn. So we. We sold a bighorn in Alberta. We bought the tag for 80. 80,000. It's a hunt, it's not a tag. I mean, we actually bought an outfitted hunt for $80,000, and our objective was to sell $200,000 worth of tickets and net 120. So, you know, if we pay the outfitter 80, we net 120. You know, theoretically, we could direct $120,000 into bighorn sheep conservation. We're, you know, we're going to direct $1.3 million. But what if you take.

[Brody Henderson]

But just take. I mean, I know you.

[Gray Thornton]

I can't figure out how to get a 1.3 million out of a raffle, but. Unless it's a nationwide lotto.

[Brody Henderson]

But take a stab that. Not the hunt. Not the guided hunt, but take a stab that. Had there been a raffle just in your. Just the best year, because you're probably more qualified to answer this imperfect question than anybody else on the planet. Had that been a raffle, that tag, that New Mexico tag, had that been a raffle, what would it have brought in?

[Gray Thornton]

200, $250,000?

[Brody Henderson]

I think so.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Yikes.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Darn.

[Gray Thornton]

Really? Yeah. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Because you've done a bunch of raffles.

[Gray Thornton]

We do a lot of raffles. But, you know, I mean, we could probably. 250, you know, maybe, you know, if. If you, if you could get people, hey, this is the biggest sheep in North America. This is what it's going to be. How long are you going to run the raffle? You know, I mean, my hip pocket is 250, 300,000. Could we get a half million?

[Brody Henderson]

Maybe that becomes a little obscure, though, that you're notifying raffle buyers about this.

[Corinne]

Win a chance at the biggest.

[Gray Thornton]

Biggest sheep in the world. Yeah. And so I can see you getting.

[Brody Henderson]

A real call from the Washington Gambling Commission at that point.

[Gray Thornton]

And, oh, by the way, Washington residents, Hawaii residents, you know, if we were going to draw. This is a funny one. In Nevada. If we were going to draw the hunt in Nevada, Nevada residents aren't eligible to do it online. They have to buy it there. So, I mean, the laws are. Pennsylvania's got crazy laws. I mean, everyone's got interesting laws. We run our raffles when we do a raffle. We run it out of Wyoming. We have an office in Wyoming. We run our raffles out of Wyoming because it's a little bit more generous on the. Our little liberal, I guess you could say, on the raffle laws. But we, you know, we have run afoul on Washington and got called out on it. We've run afoul even in Montana, where one of my employees was trying to do the right thing. She thought by, well, shoot, you know, I'll just. If you want me to run your card right now, I'll just run it right now. She didn't know it was a credit card, not a debit card. I then got a phone call saying, hey, one of your employees. I'm with the Montana department of Revenue. One of your employees just did an illegal raffle purchase for me. And I went, you know, yeah, do the right thing. Get burned. But, you know, those are the things we're up against. But there we go.

[Brody Henderson]

Now, it was good talk to you about this.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah. This was. I, you know, I appreciate it. I'm honored to be on the program. I really appreciate, you know, listening, looking at the facts. What we have to really look at is the why. Why is it deep down inside, we're envious of something that somebody else can buy that we can't? And that's really what the nut cutting comes down to. It's just this. That's human nature. So all we can do is provide the facts, do our best, focus on a resource and be open to ideas, come up with a better idea of how to fund it. We're all ears.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, no, I could see that if someone. If some mathematician came to you and said, gray, that that tag should have brought 3 million by my formula, you. Would you take this all. Yeah.

[Gray Thornton]

Take the call. I would.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, Well, I appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much.

[Gray Thornton]

Appreciate, Joe. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Thank you. People can buy a raffle ticket perhaps next year in Reno.

[Gray Thornton]

You can buy. Well, we have raffles that we're offering online all the time. So are our chapters. We try to obey, obviously, all the laws, but, you know, if you look at sheep hunting right now and how expensive it is, raffles are the best deal going from a number standpoint, from an odd standpoint. So, you know, get in all the raffles you possibly can, you know, and then also treat it like a portfolio. Put some money away every month to buy that sheep hunt someday, you know.

[Brody Henderson]

I forgot to mention, you're the CEO of Wild sheep Foundation. Okay.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

And then. And then tell people real quick if they want to get checked out on wild sheep, what's the best approach.

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah. Come we're we're based here in Bozeman World Headquarters, but go to wildsheepfoundation.org wildsheepfoundation.org and you can see what we do. Last year, we directed $11.1 million to programs benefiting wild sheep. Pretty impressive for a organization with only 11,000 members, so.

[Brody Henderson]

Is that right?

[Gray Thornton]

Yeah, you know, we're. I like to say that, you know, we. We may have a relatively small footprint, but we cast one hell of a long conservation shadow, and we're proud of it.

[Brody Henderson]

Great, man. Thanks again.

[Gray Thornton]

Thanks a lot, Steven. Appreciate it.