Ep. 666: MeatEater Radio Live! All Hands for Public Lands!

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast Episode: Ep. 666: MeatEater Radio Live! All Hands for Public Lands! Release Date: February 21, 2025

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Introduction to MeatEater Radio Live

In Episode 666 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Cal Jensen, alongside co-hosts Seth Morris, Corey Calkins, and Phil, brings listeners a dynamic and insightful live discussion centered on the pressing issues surrounding public lands in the United States. The episode delves deep into the challenges faced by federal and state land management agencies, the impact of recent layoffs, and the broader implications for conservation and outdoor recreation enthusiasts.

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Public Lands Under Pressure

Impact of Federal Layoffs

Cal Jensen sets the stage by highlighting the critical state of public lands, emphasizing how recent layoffs within agencies like the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and U.S. Forest Service are jeopardizing the maintenance and stewardship of these areas.

Cal (02:08): "Public lands, access to public lands, access to public wildlife. Those are absolutely core to MeatEater to everybody who works here, and they just shouldn't be screwed with, man."

David Wilms reinforces the breadth of the issue, noting that the consequences of reduced staffing extend beyond mere maintenance woes.

David Wilms (07:49): "There's also habitat work going on, research going on. It trickles down to every facet of hunting and fishing... everything and other forms of outdoor recreation that are important too."

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Interview with Ryan Schroeder: A Frontline Perspective

The episode features a heartfelt interview with Ryan Schroeder, a recently terminated rangeland management specialist from the BLM's Trace Rios Field Office in Dolores, Colorado. Ryan shares his journey from Purdue University to his role in public land management, underscoring the vital work range specialists perform in balancing agriculture, conservation, and wildlife management.

Ryan Schroeder (13:41): "We're here to help us steward our national natural heritage for current generations and for the future from this multiple use mission that the different agencies have..."

Ryan details the immediate impact of his termination, highlighting the daunting task remaining for an already strained team.

Ryan Schroeder (25:07): "There's a backlog of land health assessments and grazing permit renewals that we were getting geared up to do. This year it was going to be thirty more days or more days in the field..."

He expresses concern over the future of public land stewardship and the potential for further layoffs.

Ryan Schroeder (32:08): "This is important and this is not the end of it. And things need to happen... people need to know what is happening out on the ground."

Cal responds with empathy, encouraging Ryan and reinforcing the community's support.

Cal (34:12): "It's hard to hear, man. I think I appreciate you coming on... We'll keep sending you good thoughts and hope you do get reinstated."

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Legal Insights and State-Level Land Transfers

Understanding the Utah Lawsuit with David Wilms and Bruce Kania

David Wilms provides a comprehensive legal analysis of the ongoing lawsuit in Utah aimed at transferring federal lands to state control. Joined by legal expert Bruce Kania from Floating Island International, they dissect the implications of the lawsuit's dismissal by the U.S. Supreme Court and the potential next steps in federal district courts.

Bruce Kania (37:10): "The U.S. Supreme Court in a 12-word order declined to accept jurisdiction of the case... they'll have to file it and go through the normal course of litigation."

Kania discusses the broader movement of states like Montana, Wyoming, and Arizona pursuing policies to transfer or sell federal lands, emphasizing the significant opposition from the public.

Bruce Kania (43:29): "67% of respondents opposed that across the west... The public doesn't want to see federal lands transferred."

Cal highlights the economic ramifications of such transfers, especially in small towns heavily reliant on federal employment.

Cal (55:38): "If you're a private landowner... you could not sell your private land to the federal government without the state legislature's approval."

Kania further elaborates on the environmental and economic consequences of federal land sales, drawing comparisons to state-managed lands that prioritize revenue generation over conservation.

Bruce Kania (57:52): "It's so short-sighted. The impacts on that would be pretty, pretty catastrophic."

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Community Engagement and Listener Segments

Listener Trivia and Hot Tips

The live show incorporates interactive segments where listeners participate in trivia and share practical outdoor tips. Two standout submissions are highlighted:

1. Brandon Meyer (66:23): Advocates using toilet paper for blood trailing during deer hunts—a biodegradable and visible marker method.
2. Richard Tchaikowski (67:03): Recommends sprinkling cayenne pepper in socks to act as a natural vasodilator, keeping feet warm in cold conditions.

The audience votes in favor of Richard's tip, rewarding him with a Mole Tree Cell Camera for his innovative suggestion.

Seth Morris (69:09): "I'm going with Richard, because my feet freeze all the time. I struggle with it."

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Special Feature: Methane and the Ice House Explosion

Interview with Bruce Kania on Floating Island International

Bruce Kania returns to discuss a recent methane-related incident—the "ice house explosion"—and its broader environmental implications. He explains how excessive organic material in eutrophic lakes can lead to methane buildup under ice, posing safety hazards.

Bruce Kania (71:21): "Organic material... becomes sludge. No oxygen in the sludge. That's where methane occurs."

Kania details Floating Island International's work in mitigating such issues through innovative environmental technologies like floating islands that trap excess nutrients and support aquatic life.

Bruce Kania (75:57): "Methane is colorless and odorless, but it's usually accompanied by hydrogen sulfide... If you smell that, be alert."

He offers practical advice for ice fishermen to detect and avoid dangerous methane concentrations, emphasizing the importance of monitoring ice conditions and utilizing sonar technology.

Bruce Kania (78:00): "Look at the ice, let it tell you what's going on. Clear ice and maybe some bubbles, but not many—you're probably in good shape."

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Support and Community Initiatives

Cal Jensen highlights ongoing community support efforts, including a GoFundMe campaign for Rosalie, a recently laid-off Forest Service employee, underscoring the podcast's commitment to advocating for and supporting public land stewards.

Cal (80:43): "There's a GoFundMe to support Rosalie... If you got a couple of bucks to push their way, that'd be great."

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Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode wraps up, Cal underscores the importance of active engagement in protecting public lands. He urges listeners to contact their local and federal representatives to voice their support for conservation efforts and oppose detrimental land transfer proposals.

Cal (86:25): "It's just not okay to sit on your butt and do nothing. If this stuff matters to you... don't, don't write in anymore."

David Wilms echoes this sentiment, encouraging listeners to focus on actionable steps rather than dwelling on past electoral outcomes.

David Wilms (86:24): "Stop dwelling on the results of the election and dwell on what needs to be dealt with now."

The episode closes with a reaffirmation of the podcast's dedication to staying informed and proactive in the face of evolving public land challenges.

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Key Takeaways

• Public Lands Are Under Threat: Federal and state agencies face significant challenges due to layoffs, impacting conservation and recreational access.

• Legal Battles Intensify: Ongoing lawsuits aim to transfer or sell federal lands to states, with overwhelming public opposition evident in recent polls.

• Community Matters: Active engagement and support for affected individuals and land stewards are crucial in combating detrimental policies.

• Innovative Solutions Needed: Addressing environmental issues like methane buildup requires both technological innovation and vigilant monitoring.

Listeners are encouraged to stay informed, participate in community initiatives, and actively advocate for the preservation and responsible management of public lands.

Transcript

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, American history buffs. Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times, violent conditions. We explain what started the Mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, you can buy this wherever audiobooks are sold. Meat Eaters American History The Mountain Men 1806-1840 by Stephen Rinella.

[Cal]

Smell us now, lady. Welcome to Meat Eater Trivia Meat Eater Podcast. Whoa. Welcome to Meat Eater radio live. It's 11am Montana time and you're back in the Meat Eater studio joining me. I'm your host, by the way. Joining me today, Brody Henderson. Hola, Seth Morris.

[Seth Morris]

Howdy.

[Cal]

Lots of energy. Keep it up guys. Corey Calkins and Phil is running this whole gig. As you already know, today we we have a very special Meat Eater Radio live where we're focusing on a topic near and dear to all of our hearts, which is public lands. We're going to talk about state lands and federal lands and get a general idea of what the heck is going on out there in this crazy world. We are going to check in with an ex blm, a recently ex blm. The body's still warm, folks. Blm Rangeland ecologist to talk about layoffs. Then we're going to talk with our buddy David Wilms, who is our go to legal source for all things public lands. Then we're gonna have some fun with a hot tip off. And finally we're gonna wrap up with another guest is the CEO of Floating Island International International, Bruce Kania, who is going to talk us about talk to us about methane, specifically in regards to the ice house explosion that we covered on Theme Eater.com first, before we get into all of this. I guess we're going to call this, like, Cal Unleashed. I just want to, like, set the stage on. On what we're tackling.

[Phil]

I actually made a drop for this, if that's okay. Y. Yeah. I don't know if you're gonna like it or not, but.

[Cal]

Oh, yeah, the music's perfect.

[Brody Henderson]

What are you trying to say at the end?

[Stephen Rinella]

Whoa.

[Cal]

What was that at the end?

[Phil]

That was System of a Down.

[Cal]

I don't know.

[Corey Calkins]

That's.

[Phil]

That's kind of a deep cut. So my ones hit me up.

[Seth Morris]

I was sitting in my office and heard Phil making this, and I was just like, you know what?

[David Wilms]

Just.

[Seth Morris]

Just Phil doing his thing in there. I'm not gonna be worried.

[Phil]

I gave Chili a warning, but not Seth. I probably should have given the whole office a warning.

[Cal]

So Mountain Tough Fitness guys used to be like my next door neighbor where I live before they moved into their. Their new facility. And I'm an early riser, right. And I had to tell those guys, I'm like, you know, if you guys didn't play that type of music, I'd probably come over and work out.

[Corey Calkins]

Right.

[Cal]

I'm like, can't do like BBC News or something like that. Yeah. So we've been listening to a lot of. A lot of feedback and tip of the hat here. There are people who read the comments on the YouTube channel and Reddit and all the other places, including email that you send in. So we recently did a. It's a State of the Union type of podcast that we always do with trcp. We have a new president, CEO at trcp, Joel Peterson, who is a fine human. And the timing, the news cycle right now is very, very fast paced. So ever anytime you put something out, you risk it being dated by the time it actually releases, right? The. The gap between the recording time and the release time, a lot of things can happen. And we were in a spot where we were. I say we were like, kind of speculating on if there would be any more federal layoffs at the time of recording. And by the time that recording came out, there had been a lot of federal layoffs. So we want to tackle that head on today. And I'll just tell you right now, public lands, access to public lands, access to public wildlife. Those are absolutely core to meat eater to everybody who works here, and they just shouldn't be screwed with, man. And we're going to get into this deeper with. With our first guest, but there's no slippage in those values here. And we care deeply about the stewards of the land who often sacrifice at low pay and very little thanks to go out there and clear trails and, and clean up, you know, government houses, those nice square government houses with a little pebble walls.

[David Wilms]

They do a lot more than that.

[Cal]

And the drop toilets. Yes, a lot more than that. So hopefully we'll get into more of that. I would say, and fellows, please chime in here that I don't think it's unfair to say that there's like a general attack on public lands right now. And it is widespread. Well, it's coming from both the state side of things and the federal side of things. And I, the only kind of disclaimer I would put in there is like public lands as we know them. So right now with the layoffs that just recently went through, like the group of people that those layoffs affected on, on in Bureau of Land Management, U.S. forest Service Land that we use heavily here in Montana and throughout the West. Those are the folks that are doing the trail maintenance and the general cleanup that you see like covered in the news. Like the, it ticks me off that like the scariest thing that some of these news outlets can come up with is like, so don't be surprised if there's trash at your campground when you show up.

[David Wilms]

Yeah. I mean, there's also habitat work going on, research going on. Like it trickles down to every facet of hunting and fishing. Right. Like everything and, and other forms of outdoor recreation that are important too. I mean, look like camping, rafting, what, whatever, like.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[David Wilms]

Affects everyone.

[Cal]

Yeah. Like your off road vehicle stamp that you get like that goes directly to trails and campground maintenance.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Cal]

Right. It's, it's probably gonna be a little beefed if you're a ATV or single track rider and those trails aren't maintained and your campgrounds are, are. Don't have to worry about trash blowing around because you're not gonna be able to get into them, period. So without further ado, I think, and it like we want to get into how you can wade into this, this situation here. Certainly at the state level, you have every right and ability to contact all of your lawmakers, from the governor to your state representatives to your congressional representatives. And if you're concerned about this stuff, you absolutely should be writing in. Right. Like in the West, I'll tell you that small town economies are greatly impacted by, by USDA Forest Service, Bureau of Rec, BLM employees.

[David Wilms]

It shouldn't just be about the west though.

[Cal]

No.

[David Wilms]

You know, because back east there are millions of people that live within spitting distance of national forests, national parks, you know, all kinds of federally managed land. So it's. It's not just a western issue.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And you can absolutely agree, like, we're based on having your cake and eat it, too, here in America. Okay. You can agree on some things our elected officials are doing and be diametrically opposed to other things that they are doing, and that is absolutely okay. In fact, it's completely normal. So when you call your elected representatives, when you hold their feet to the fire, you can say, hey, I love what you're doing over here. Keep it up. However, what you're doing over here has giant negative impacts that you don't even understand, and you need to stop or you need to change the pace at which you're. You're pushing this stuff. So. Yeah.

[David Wilms]

How'd your day go yesterday, Cal?

[Cal]

Oh, that's a good question. Yeah. So we did a rally for public lands at the Montana state capital, Helena, Montana. I always like to point out when I go up there that behind Capitol Hill in Helena is a chunk of blm. And my grandpa, he grew. Grew up there at the base of that BLM chunk, and that was his last trap line was on that chunk of BLM up above the Capitol.

[David Wilms]

Big crowd there.

[Cal]

Yeah, it was a loud crowd. You know, unfortunately, we didn't see a whole lot of lawmakers in the room, but I guarantee you they could hear us. So we had some really killer speakers and just a really good show of support for our public lands here in Montana, both state and federally managed. So that was really cool. And, gang, I got to tell you, like, showing up physically and being in these places when there's a call is really, really important. I mean, it makes a big impact. It's a very hard thing to ignore. I told the crowd yesterday that if I was a anti public lands representative, I'd be scared shitless of being in that room. Like, I mean, you're talking about some dedicated people, and you look in their eyes and you just know this stuff's important and you shouldn't mess with it.

[David Wilms]

Yep.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hard to replace that. So are you guys ready to get to our first interview here?

[David Wilms]

Sure.

[Cal]

All right, so Ryan Schroeder is a fella that I've met a handful of times over the years, and real interesting story, but he caught old Dr. Randall Williams attention the other day because he posted on. On Instagram about being laid off. And I think it's a story worth hearing. So we'd like to get Ryan. Oh, There he is.

[Corey Calkins]

There I am. Can you see me guys?

[Cal]

Yeah, we got you.

[Corey Calkins]

Awesome. Good to see you guys. Thanks for, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate the time and, and your willingness to talk about this. So thank you.

[Cal]

Where you at?

[Corey Calkins]

I am in Mancus, Colorado. So just between Cortez and Durango right now. Yeah, far southwest Colorado around I think Hunt units 72, 71 and 71 1. So for those of Colorado folks, I know you Brody, so I'll going to.

[David Wilms]

Do my best not to burn any time or two.

[Corey Calkins]

Just a time or two. Yeah. So yeah, thank you guys for having me on.

[Cal]

What's the. The population of Mankus, Colorado?

[Corey Calkins]

Oh gosh. Are we including cattle in that population too? Or in mule deer? Oh, gosh, I think Manc 1800 folks. I checked. Yeah, I. I just moved. Well plus two now. I just moved here back in December from, from Missoula actually. So saw you guys meet your live when you came last year.

[Cal]

Oh, thank you. So let's just get down to it. What, what made you go down the path of being a parasite on the government payroll?

[Corey Calkins]

Geez. Yeah. Well, for to correct you, that's what.

[Cal]

I see in the news.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, supposedly. Yeah. So I was, I don't know the right tensing to use because I was fired. I've never been fired before, but was fired on Tuesday. But I was a rangeland management specialist, not a rangeland ecologist. Those are two different job series titles for the Bureau of Land Management here, based out of the Trace Rios Field office here in Dolores, Colorado.

[Cal]

That's Three Rivers, Seth.

[Seth Morris]

I got.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, I got you see. But yeah, so yeah, rangeland management specialist out of the Trace Rios field office, but also had duties with the Canyon of the Ancients National Monument. So that's just north of Cortez, Colorado. And so yeah, gosh, where to start? Why I got interested in wanting to work for the federal government and the Bureau of Land Management in particular. You know, I always wanted to serve my country. When I was in high school, I wanted to end up wanting to be in the Marine Corps or the army, but I ended up being medically denied when I was getting out of high school and wanted to go down that path, but still was interested in agriculture, habitat, hunting, fishing, et cetera. And so went to school at Purdue University, did kind of a generic natural resource environmental sciences degree, but got specialized in soils and vegetation, things like that. And I got introduced to hunting out. So I grew up in Indiana. So you know, corn, soybeans, agriculture, thickets with trees with Good whitetail populations and frog ponds for fishing. But I had a friend of my dad's, friend had a group on a ranch out by Reed Point, Montana, and took me out there hunting when I was like 8, 10 years, I think 10 years old, and killed my first deer out there. And it's like, oh, I can see further than like around the next corn field and stuff. So that always was trickling in the back of my mind. And in high school, went out hunting around Laramie and Wheatland, Wyoming, a lot for pronghorn. That's 2013 pronghorn up there behind me out of Wheatland area. And yeah, I was just like, wait, people manage this stuff? Like, I don't know, like, do people do anything with this or can. Like, it's not like row crop ag. I don't know. What do you do other than ranch it and how does that work? So doing work at Purdue University, got introduced with a couple land trusts with habitat work on restoring prairies and oak savannas. Then got a chance to work for the U.S. forest Service in the Bighorn National Forest out of Buffalo, Wyoming, as a range tech, as a seasonal position. 2016, 2017, 2017. I thought it was chaos in 2016 or 2017 getting back to work with them, but that got me just so induced. Like, this is range. Range isn't the top of the stove. Range is habitat work, is livestock, is wildlife. Is this nexus of agriculture, conservation and wildlife issues. Figuring out how do plants and soils and water and animals interact on the landscape? How can we manage it to, you know, achieve the objectives that we want out on the ground and do good habitat work, to be able to have all these different things out on the ground and do all these different, you know, recreation, hunting, fishing, hiking, and also other extractive uses like livestock grazing is an extractive use. We've got mining, oil and gas exploration, et cetera. And so I ended up doing my master's at Colorado State University doing work funded by the Bureau of Land management and the U.S. forest Service in western Colorado, out by Grand Junction and a couple of the national conservation areas over there, as well as up north of Hayden, Colorado, northwest of Steamboat Springs, in a beautiful area that. I'm not going to say the name.

[David Wilms]

Of it, don't say it.

[Corey Calkins]

You know what I'm talking about. Teddy Roosevelt was there. But yeah, so working in beautiful landscapes with amazing people who care about stewardship of our public resources. Because like I said, I grew up in Indiana. I was surrounded by private land and got exposed to all the lands and Resources that we all own as Americans. And it's like, oh man, these people do cool work and are doing good, important work to steward our lands. And so did my master's at Colorado State. Then got funding from the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service to do a PhD, started it down in New Mexico State University in 2020, working on the Hornada experimental range down there as well as working with the NRCS to develop a tool on the web soil survey, a soil interpretation to help us better restore rangelands through active seeding and rangeland seeding activities. And so been in academia, been in School for 11 years and working with agencies who get out and do work on the ground. Like I don't want to be in academia, I don't want to be on my computer as much as I have in the past so many years. And my interactions with our public land stewards and the private people that we work with or that public land stewards work with just made me want to get in to do that hands on, on the ground work. Not being here as like, oh, I'm here with the government to tell you what to do. I am here to help you solve problems. Help us steward our national natural heritage for current generations and for the future from this multiple use mission that the different agencies have from Federal Lands Policy Management Act, Flipmaster and yes, that's having those skills that knowledge in rangeland ecology, soils, vegetation, etc.

[Cal]

And when you talk about rangeland right like that, that term is. Is particular to grazing allotments. It's not like rangeland for deer and elk. You're out there.

[Corey Calkins]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Cal]

Like that NRCS funded reseeding project that's to put more grass on the ground for, for cattle, for private enterprise for.

[Corey Calkins]

That, but also just for keeping our lands and soils healthy, for keeping our soils where they're supposed to be and managing for the watershed resource managing for all these different resource. Range is such an interdisciplinary program and that yeah our mission or our project area program, area and range has been for first and foremost because of the Taylor Grazing act that was passed in 1934 to help solve some of the issues that had happened from the 1800s and westward expansion and the overgrazing of just open range. We now have grazing back in 34, 1934, soon enough by 2034. Geez. But to at least permit and authorize and have terms and conditions set out for private citizens to through a regulated way graze domestic livestock, whether that be cattle or sheep, primarily in my field, in the field office, I've been working with was primarily cattle, was to produce food and fiber for the American people on our public rangelands. But do it in a responsible way, a balanced way to do, to look at other resources and make sure that we minimize conflict, mitigate and minimize negative environmental impact of this primary use. That's you guys have talked about before within multiple use missions of grazing as one of those primary tenants of a authorized use or a use on public lands. But it's so much more than just grazing and keeping grass on for cattle. It's for soil health, it's for wildlife habitat. I mean we. We are here to advocate or we were. I don't know what the tense to use because I was fired so recently terminated and it was not laid off. I was. It was a termination is how it is written in my termination letter.

[Cal]

And can you. I'm sorry, Ryan, to interrupt you there, but you know, we're hearing the terms terminated, layoff, furloughed. What's the difference between terminated and furloughed?

[Corey Calkins]

So furloughed is so say March 14th, PI Day. We've got coming up the continuing resolution that we're currently acting under ends and so say if I was still. If I were to be furloughed, I would still be on paper, an employee of the Bureau of Land Management and anybody who working for the federal government who is not a essential employee as designated as such, would be not able to work, not permitted to work, can't touch a dang thing, your government phone, your email account, etc. But then once funding would be restored, they would be paid for, you know, what they did for the. They would be paid and still stay on with the agency that they're working for. I, as of Tuesday, February 18, was terminated after less than 60 days of being with the Bureau of Land Management here in Colorado. By the end of the day on Tuesday, two hours after I got the notice from my supervisor, I lost access to my work email, I lost access to my work phone. I had to turn all of my badges and everything back in. The letter was actually dated for February 14th out like everybody, like a lot of the other people who were terminated in this way. So. And I was terminated because I was a probationary employee. I had less than a year in service. I had started with. Had started on December 30, 2024, after finishing.

[Cal]

Sorry. I mean, you're. You're a highly educated dude, motivated guide, going, you know, learning a lot. You got a lot of credentials behind you. I mean, far more than I ever will If I'm being frank.

[Corey Calkins]

But they're just, they're just, they're just letters and it's just experience. So it's, I don't know, school of hard knocks and whatever.

[Cal]

So, I mean, you're going to find another gig, another job.

[Corey Calkins]

I hope so. Yeah. I hope to be reinstated. I want to get like, I'm trying to appeal this to get reinstated because the reason that they used in my termination letters, like apparently the. My skills and qualifications do not meet the needs of the department is what it is how it is stated in my termination letter.

[David Wilms]

What Ryan, can I. Like, I don't know if you can speculate or not, but what would. What do you see? Like high level. Like easy to explain the impact of not having range managers on the landscape.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, gosh, that's a big question. High level. So our primary focus in the range group is to use science and the law to administer grazing permits on public land. So working with private citizens, like I said, and private ranches to graze livestock on public rangelands. And there's a whole set of terms and conditions in a whole process, administrative process that that goes through to make sure that we go through the NEPA process, the National Environmental Policy act for it is a proposed action on public lands and could have environmental impact. So we bring in wildlife managers, recreation folks, hydrology, etc. Whenever we go through and we renew fully process a grazing permit. And that's so. And to be able to adapt to whatever the conditions are out on the ground. These permits renew are supposed to be renewed every 10 years or whenever a permittees base lease expires. And so where there's also an opportunity, an option based upon, I think a law passed in the 90s that we are legally. Or we were. The BLM is. Sorry, BLM is legally obligated to authorize or to issue grazing permits. And so there's a way to just renew the prop. Renew the. Renew the permit without changing anything. Which is all well and good, but what if that land's not meeting land health standards?

[David Wilms]

That's kind of what I was getting at. Like, is there a situation in which this would result in not only degraded, yes. Grazing conditions for cattle, but also degraded wildlife habitat for mule deer and elk and sage grouse and like on and on and on.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. So like for example, we were. But I'm sorry, I'm getting fired up here. I'll calm down. I wonder why I'm fired up. So we in my office. So it was myself and another new range management specialist who he had just started in October but had come over after two years with in being a range management specialist in Nevada. And we were working up addition to our permanent range technician prioritization plans to go do land health assessments and figure out and develop a prioritization strategy for the grazing permits that are expiring this year to renew them and fully process as many of them as we could. But also do that, you know, no change determines and conditions where it made sense. We have a 2 because the person who I was hired for retired a year or two ago. It took the office at least a year and a half to fill my position. And there's a year, there's two years worth of backlogs of land health assessments and grazing permit renewals that we were getting geared up to do. This year it was going to be 40, 30 more days or more days in the field bringing out also our wildlife folks, our hydrology people, etc. In our this interdisciplinary team that we have to have out in the field to look at land health. Is grazing a cause of if land health standards are not being met? If not great. If so, how can that change be mitigated and go through that nepa, the National Environmental Policy act process? It is down to one range and management specialist and one range technician to try to fill that two years worth of backlog. I mean with three of us it was going to be a daunting task with two of them and I like they are the next ones on the chopping block because we hear that this is not the end of what is to come.

[Cal]

Well and like to point out like the other side of this is is the, the quote unquote consumer, right. Like folks want those grazing leases badly because they're the cheapest grazing lease you can possibly get. Right. It's like A$35 per aum.

[Corey Calkins]

It's the one thing that has not changed with inflation and has not changed since 1996. About as old as I am. I'll be. I was born 95.

[David Wilms]

So there's a lot of people in this country getting their steaks from that land, so to speak. You know what I mean? Steaks and burger.

[Corey Calkins]

Yes sir. And not just, not just beef burgers but, but venison, elk. Yeah, everything like. And so we were working up, we had new direction as of October to start prioritizing grazing permit renewals. Fully processed renewals in Gunnison sage grouse habitat. Because here over in Canyon of the Ancients National Monument and up north at Disappointment Valley Natarita area there's a lot of. There's Gunnison sage grouse habitat and grazing permits in those areas that we were given direction from from the last minute or we were given direction from to begin prioritizing, catching up with land health assessments, grazing permit renewals, to be able to adaptively manage grazing permits or help work with the private permittees to adaptively manage to make sure that those species are not further imperiled by what's happening out on the ground.

[Cal]

And so it's interesting, right? I mean, every program that you've mentioned has been at minimum put on funding freeze nrcs. You know, that really, if you looked at nrcs, wouldn't be disingenuous to call it the largest conservation program in the world. Not, not just the United States or North America, but like the world. And that's something that, that helps out people on the private side of the fence tremendously. Just like we talked about grazers right here. So, yeah, we got to get going. Just out of curiosity, and if you're not willing to share this, it's a little bit like looking at you with your pants down, but what, what were you getting paid as a new rangeland specialist?

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, so I was brought in as a GS11, step one, brand new federal employee. I was making about 73,000. If I would have $73,000 annually would have been my salary. Yeah.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

So.

[Cal]

And. And what. What's next? Next for. You told me earlier it's rabbit season.

[Corey Calkins]

It's rabbit season. Here's wrapping up. You know, I've been trying to figure out when to get use some of the little leave that I had accrued over my short less than 60 days to figure out when to go down to hunt my javelina tag down in southern New Mexico. I think I might be able to do a little bit more planning to go down and hunt that tag. After that, I just. I want to get reinstated. I want to appeal this. I don't think this is right. I'm worried about the mission of. I mean, if I get. If I get. If I don't get rehired, so be it.

[David Wilms]

Keep fighting, man.

[Corey Calkins]

I worry I. You guys keep fighting to hold the line. This is. We need. This is important and this is not the end of it. And things need to. People need to know what is happening out on the ground. It's not just trash. It's not just whatever it is our habitat, our public resource, our natural heritage at risk for a mission that is supposedly changing, that is not due to the public's will or at Least not being played out in a public process right now. And I worry about what is to come next for my. For my co workers, if they're gonna. If more people are gonna get laid off, like they're already on a skeleton crew. What's gonna happen if more people get. Get terminated or people lose faith in the agency and go, what does that mean for the next. That's what worries me. I'll be okay. I. I think. I. I don't know what this sets up for. For the future of our public resources and our natural and national heritage. Well, in our stewardship of these lands, I.

[Cal]

It's hard to hear, man. I think I appreciate you coming on. Appreciate you guys asking tremendously. And we'll keep sending you good thoughts and hope you do get reinstated. You know, it's a good example of what's going on right now. Things are moving really fast and. And I think at the end of the day, people just need to understand that no matter how you voted, the vote's over. Right. What matters is what you do from now forward, every single day. And it's absolutely, absolutely okay and within your power to say, hey, this particular thing I do not agree with. Right. So thanks a bunch, Ryan, and keep me posted. Hopefully we'll have you back on with some good news at. At some point.

[Corey Calkins]

We'll see. I. Like I said, I'm speaking in a personal capacity right now. Once. If I were to get brought back on, I have to run it by my soup. I. Yeah. Appreciate you guys having me on. Brody, Seth, good meeting you guys. Phil, thanks for talking to us.

[Cal]

Thank you. You know, I. I hate asking a fella how much he makes, but when you're in a town of 1800 people, that's a. That's a significant salary to remove out of that economy.

[David Wilms]

Sure.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah.

[David Wilms]

And, I mean, there's more to it than that, even, you know.

[Cal]

Oh, absolutely.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, American history buffs. Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men, 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Colter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times, violent conditions. We explain what started the mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interacted with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of, of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, you can buy this wherever audiobooks are sold. Meat Eaters American History the Mountain Men, 1806-1840 by Stephen Renella.

[Cal]

So running a little bit behind schedule, but we're going to get to to the the Hard Facts of the Law with David Wilms, who's our very next guest. He forgot his hair gel today.

[Bruce Kania]

I did. No, it's, I've got lots of it in. I'm just glad I, I'm just glad I have hair.

[Cal]

So David, if, if it's all right with you, I'd love to just get an update on what the heck's going on with the Utah lawsuit and then go from there and just kind of talk about where this land transfer sell off movement is. I can give you some feedback on the Montana side of things, but I know Wyoming, where you are a resident, has some stuff in motion. And, and I think starting with, with Utah would be a great, great place.

[Bruce Kania]

Sure, I'm happy to do that and thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. So last time I was with you guys, the Utah lawsuit was still active, right? Meaning they had this case before the United States Supreme Court. They were asking for the Supreme Court to accept jurisdiction of the case. And we were talking, we were speculating what might happen. Well, the, in January, the United States supreme court in a 12 word order declined to accept jurisdiction of the case. Which all that really means is they said it doesn't warrant us taking on what's called original jurisdiction. It doesn't warrant us taking the case. Yet they didn't say that there was no case there. They didn't say that they might not hear it again in the future. They, they just said in 12 words, not now, case would decline to exercise jurisdiction. So because of that, that case goes away. But the way I've described this to people, to use a bit of a football analogy, which might be a little late now that we've passed the super bowl, but I think it works, was that Utah threw their Hail Mary on the first play of the game, Right. Instead of the last play of the game, meaning they took a run at the Supreme Court knowing very well that the likelihood of the court accepting the case was exceptionally low. And all that means now is if they want this lawsuit to proceed to go forward, they're going to have to file it and go through the normal course and procedure, which means filing it in federal district court, which is what we really expect will probably happen in the coming months, weeks, months. Don't know how long it'll take, but would fully expect that at some point we'll see a new lawsuit filed in federal district court, and then we're just operating under the playbook. Now the game's happening, to use that football analogy, right? We had the Hail Mary, it dropped incomplete in the end zone, and now they're going to the playbook and they're playing the game. And that's what I would expect would happen going forward, is we'll probably see a new lawsuit filed in federal district court, and then we'll have to go through the normal process of motions to dismiss, motions for summary judgment, you know, all the things that come with, with litigation.

[Cal]

And is there, there any expected timeline on them supplying that to the lower court?

[Bruce Kania]

And they can really do it whenever they want. When I say it could be weeks or months, I mean, it's. It really can be any time. I don't think I've seen anything publicly indicating when that might come. It's just when they're ready, they'll have to. You know, I suspect they learned some things, they floated some legal theories, and I think some of those legal theories folks were able to poke some holes in and, you know, in that Supreme Court filing. And so I could see them going back and making some changes to that complaint and maybe completing this case a little bit differently. I don't know what it. I mean, the end result would be asking for roughly the same thing, I suspect. But the legal arguments to get there might. They might tweak those a little bit. So it just depends on how long it takes for them to do that and when they decide the timing is right for them to refile.

[David Wilms]

Dave, is there any former examples of these kind of cases where we can, like, kind of base what we think should happen in the next round? Not necessarily what will, but what should based on what's happened in the past?

[Bruce Kania]

You mean, like, sorry to ask it another way, but you mean like an attempt to get to the Supreme Court that being denied or.

[David Wilms]

Or in a federal district court just, just another. An example of another lawsuit like this that turned out a certain way, or is this just like, who knows what's going to happen.

[Bruce Kania]

I view this as a, I mean, you don't know what's going to happen. Although I would say there's a lot of federal case law out there talking about the ability of the federal government to own and manage federal lands. There's 200 years of precedent out there that Utah is going to somehow have to explain away. And I think we, we talked about it before what the narrow angle they were taking was, which is, you know, that despite this 200 years of precedent, it was all those cases were doing was confirming that the federal government could manage and manage those lands exclusively, but that maybe it didn't actually address the question of could they hold on to those lands in perpetuity? And so that, that's the narrow question they're trying to force into the discussion. But, man, there's a lot of case law out there talking about the federal government having the absolute authority to manage public lands and to own public lands. Well, one, so it's tough. It's a, it's going to be a tough case.

[Cal]

One, one good thing that I see here is when these things come up, they kind of boil over and they become so, in the past, so socially unacceptable to mess with these big chunks of federally managed public lands that are managed on behalf of all of us and they're America's playground. Plus, it's where a lot of Americans make their living, both in the private sector and in, in the public sector. We're seeing efforts in several states, states that have joined the, the lawsuit on, on behalf of Utah and bills being introduced in different legislative sessions. And, and to me, like, the positive there is being able to say, like, oh, that's, that's the person that we need to have a good conversation with because they are going to be on the wrong side of history. So I kind of like when this stuff pops up in a way because it flushes out folks with, with bad ideas.

[Bruce Kania]

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I also think there's, the timing of this discussion is perfect. So I don't know if you've talked about this or seen this, but yesterday Colorado College released a Conservation in the west poll. They do this poll every year. And it's, they're, they're polling voters in, in the west, particularly the Intermountain west, on a host of conservation issues. And one of the questions that they were asked was about transfer of lands to, from states or from the federal government to states. And 67% of respondents opposed that across the west in the aggregate and In Utah, it's 57%. So even in Utah, that's leading the charge on this, 57% of the voters, doesn't matter. Political party oppose transfer. And so to your point of these bills coming up in state and seeing who's sponsoring them, who's behind the bills, I think that matters because the public doesn't want to see this happen. This data is, you know, just like I said, just released yesterday, which confirms, you know, the poll from last year and the poll from the year before. And you can go back and look at polls over time. It's pretty consistent. The public doesn't want to see federal lands transferred. There's a, there's an accountability piece here, an opportunity and educational opportunity and accountability opportunity states.

[Cal]

Yeah. And who's, who holds people accountable.

[Brody Henderson]

Voters.

[Bruce Kania]

You got it.

[Cal]

That's right. That's right. So what, what's happening in Wyoming, David?

[Bruce Kania]

What isn't happening in Wyoming? Geez. So I can talk about a couple of the things. So there, there was a bill and this one, or, sorry, excuse, excuse me, a joint resolution. And this one actually died recently, but it, it made it pretty far on the Senate side, which proposed transferring all federal lands in the state to, to the state, including Grand Teton National Park. So everything except Yellowstone and that, that did ultimately die in the Senate on second or third reading. I think it was, I mean, it was a narrow, narrow margin. Then you have a couple of others. There's been a bill there too, and this one, I believe is still alive. And it would require, if you're a private landowner, you own your own property and you want to sell that property, and the buyer that's interested in that property is the federal government. Under this bill, the state legislature would have to approve that sale. You could not sell your private land to the federal government without the state legislature's approval. And that bill, to my understanding, is still alive. And it's rooted in this concept of the state wanting to have a no net gain, gain of federal lands in the state. And then there's one other thing I'd mention in state, and this one's not a bill, and this one's pretty quiet. And this is, like I mentioned this because it's something I think people should be aware of because it could happen in any number of states. But I'm sure you've talked about this before on your podcasts and I'm sure listeners know there was a parcel of land in Grand Teton national park that was owned by the state of Wyoming that late last year was sold to the park service for $100 million, 640 acres section that was bordered on. I think it was on two sides by the Park Service, one side by the National Elk Refuge, and one side by the National Forest. So it was just transferred to the federal government, which was a great deal for wyoming to get $100 million out of it. And it was a great deal for the Park Service to ensure that that land wouldn't be sold or subdivided or developed. Now the state wants to package that $100 million and an additional. I can't remember the exact number, 48 or 50 million from a sale that occurred about 10 years ago of another parcel in the park. And they want to put a proposal. In fact, I think they may have already submitted the proposal to the Bureau of Land management to purchase 10,000 acres of BLM land in Northeast Wyoming with that money. And I think that's pretty quiet. I don't think there have been. There's been a lot of press about that, and it's something I note because there is a process under the Federal Land Policy Management act for transferring federal lands or selling federal lands if it's in the national interest. And I suspect there's going to be a pitch that this, this sale would be considered in the national interest. It's an acreage that's large enough that it would require notification to Congress, but I don't think it requires approval of Congress. It's one of those where you provide a notification to Congress, and if Congress, if one chamber of Congress doesn't oppose within 30 days to the transaction, then they can move forward with it. Now, there are other things that have to happen. They've got to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act. Probably have to. To do an eis. It could be Environmental Impact Statement. It could be years before that happens. But it's an example of using existing processes and something kind of behind the scenes to effectuate pretty significant land transfers.

[Cal]

Yeah, I think that's something that everybody needs to be aware of, like land transfer sales of publicly managed ground. They do occur and they have for a long time, and, and sometimes there's some gains as well. But everybody needs to be aware that, that they can weigh in on those. They have a vested interest in saying, whoa, that doesn't work for me, or this does.

[David Wilms]

And, and they can frame it in a way that's not. It's not like a seizure. Right. Like, it's kind of like willing seller, willing buyer type thing. Like they can frame it that way. And, you know, it's harder to fight that, I think.

[Cal]

No, absolutely, absolutely. You want me to hit you with some Montana stuff, David? Yeah.

[Bruce Kania]

And then I might punt it right back to you to answer it.

[Cal]

I mean, things that I think people should know about. Right. So as we talk there, the debate on land transfer is. Sorry, Brody's got a party in his pants over here. The debate on land transfer always edges towards, well, the state, state will manage it better. And I kind of kick that back and say, well, it's not actually about management. The fear is that the state will have to sell these lands if they were to actually get ownership of them for a bunch of reasons. Most, most of them are would be just tackling any sort of budget deficits that would come up in the future. So right now in the state of Montana, we had a and I feel strongly that most of our politicians really know that land transfer, land sell off, reducing public land, public access is not something that's going to get you elected. But we did see a, you know, a Montana state funded, I. E. The taxpayer funded program get put into place this year that would assess all state lands and identify lands to sell. And then right now we have, what is it? HB 379, House Bill 379, which would essentially just streamline the process of selling state lands. And then most recently, and this kind of goes into the social side of things. Like our governor was just quoted in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece that is very land transfer privatization adjacent. But just the fact that he's quoted in there makes me nervous. Right. And it's this idea, this conglomeration of state lands and, and federally pub. Federally managed public lands are the same. And, and in a lot of ways it's like apples to kumquats, right? Like we're, we're not in the same ballpark.

[Corey Calkins]

We're.

[Cal]

They're very different. And then on top of that, we have a bill that hasn't seen the light of day yet. But I think it is one of those things that hasn't quite gotten out into the light because they, they're afraid of the social repercussions. Rep. Tommy Millett of Marion, Montana has LC 2912, which is a draft, but it would be supporting Utah's lawsuit. So straight up support of land transfer going through the Montana state legislature, which hasn't been there, we haven't seen it yet. But all of this to say on the federal side of things, we're dealing with some very challenging times regarding our public lands and that those challenges are going to have repercussions in the way that we experience public lands right now. The same stuff that we've been talking about, bathrooms, campgrounds, road maintenance, trail maintenance. Down to Ryan that we just talked to is like, it's possible that our range land that create, you know, tall grass makes fat cattle, but it also makes, you know, awesome horn growth on big, gnarly mule deer bucks. Right. It's possible that just that soil and rangeland could be affected, like down, down to that level. At the state level, we're seeing movement to acquire, slash dispose of public land. What's your sense of the landscape right now?

[Bruce Kania]

Yeah, I mean, you summed it up pretty well. There's, I would say, some antagonistic behavior in various states. Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona are right at the top of the list from the state level, pursuing policies that would encourage federal land transfer. I think you also have to look to what's going on in D.C. as well, the things that have happened or the things that haven't happened yet, but could and sort of a. This would be a call to say, hey, keep your eyes out for some of this stuff you might have heard. You know, everybody's probably seen news reports about, you know, reconciliation and what it looks like for pursuing the President's policy agenda and getting through this reconciliation process and getting tax cuts made permanent. I'll use that example because that's the one that's directly correlated here. You know, he had the 2017 tax cuts during his first presidency and he wants to, wants to make those permanent and maybe add some additional cuts. And when you have tax cuts, you have to be able to pay for that lost revenue. You have to offset that revenue. And one of the ideas that I've seen floated around is using this, I think somebody estimated $200 trillion asset that is our federal lands, using some of those to help offset the, the like, selling those to offset the tax cuts. I don't know if that'll make it in there, but, but those conversations are certainly happening behind closed doors.

[David Wilms]

Well, there's, there's precedent for that at the state level.

[Cal]

Right.

[David Wilms]

Like there are plenty of states that don't have any state owned public land because they sold them all to, to.

[Cal]

Every single state has less state land than they started with.

[David Wilms]

Right. And they use that to do whatever fund the government. So it's almost like taking that to the national level. Right?

[Bruce Kania]

Yeah. I mean, at the state level. The difference here is at the state level, all of these states received these parcels of land and were constitutionally obligated to maximize the revenue off of those acres and the maximizing of the revenue off of those acres sometimes meant selling those. I mean, the state of Utah still has, I think every six months they hold sales of state trust lands. And the idea is you maximize the revenue for your public schools and hospitals and universities, depending on the state and the Constitution. So there's this constitutional obligation that has led to the selling off of a lot of that land estate. You don't have that obligation at the federal level. So it's a little bit disconcerting that those that we're now talking, I'm not going to call it mainstream. I don't think it's mainstream. I think most people, even at the federal level in Congress, oppose this idea of selling off the federal estate or transferring it.

[Cal]

Well, you know what's interesting though, David, is if you look at like Utah is a great example. Like, if you look at the revenue generated, you know, Utah, like taxes.

[Corey Calkins]

As.

[Cal]

Most states do, right? They tax oil and gas extraction, mining in a much different way than the, the feds do. And like the income received through extractive industry on state land in Utah is significant. So like, you know, I don't know much about anything. My life's as much of a mess as the next person. But I don't see how it makes sense to sell off that land. Like it's like mailbox money to the tunes of billions of dollars.

[Bruce Kania]

Well, you, you pointed out one, one big thing, right? Like the federal government isn't required to manage public lands to generate revenue. They do generate revenue. They sell oil and gas. They have grazing leases. And your last guest highlighted the $1.35 in AUM for grazing leases. The states are required to make money off of it, as much money as possible, which is why it costs in a lot of places 1000% more to graze on state land than it does on private land. Why oil and gas royalty payments to the states are higher on state land than they are on federal lands because they're required to generate that revenue. They're not required to manage lands with multiple use in mind, including recreation and hunting and angling and conservation and all of the things that go into multiple use management. It's different. The state systems are just different. And so if you had these transfers, they're going to be managed differently than they are currently managed under the federal system. And you know, when, I mean, here's one thing that I was faced with. So I used to work as, you know, I used to work for the governor here in Wyoming the prior Governor. And when we were faced with questions about whether we should support public land transfers, one of the big reasons we opposed it was the cost of fighting fire would have bankrupt the state. We couldn't afford to do it. You know, it was so unbelievably expensive and so important to our states to have fire crews and equipment and everything out there combating these big wildfires. But it's like they're just different systems. And so this idea that would use federal lands to help pay for tax cuts by selling them either to private landowners or to states, you know, it's so short sighted. Like, the impacts on that would. Would be pretty, pretty catastrophic. Hard to even. Hard to describe.

[Cal]

Well, yeah, and I think anybody who's trying to get a mortgage in a western state right now understands that, holy cow, this land just keeps going up and up and up. So, David, I'd love to talk to you more, but I am running this horribly over time.

[Bruce Kania]

You are way behind, I can tell you. Cal Unleashed.

[Brody Henderson]

Yes.

[Cal]

Yes. All right. Thank you so much for coming out. Where, where can folks weigh in on which thing? On all of it. Like, if you want to be a public lands advocate right now, what's, what's your top two?

[Bruce Kania]

I will tell you if, if you're in one of the states we talked about, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, Utah, you reach out to your local legislator, reach out to your state representative, send notes to the governor's office. Governors have the power of the pen on the veto, right. When some of these things come through, if they pass. So reaching out to your local elected officials is really important on some of this stuff. On the federal level, reaching out to your delegation, your congressional delegation is going to be really important as well, especially as it gets closer and closer to this budget reconciliation process. There are going to be other bills like using federal lands to build homes, like to use it for housing in places that don't have housing. That's a big debate that has to happen. But keep your eyes out for that too, and contact your local representatives and tell them how you feel about that. I can tell you that Conservation of the West Pole has data about that and most people overwhelmingly don't want to see their public lands sold for housing projects either. So elected officials are elected for a reason. Right. To represent you. And the only way they are representing you is if you tell them what you think.

[Cal]

That's right. That's right. And I'll tell you, there's nothing about the layout of Bos Angeles, Montana that makes me think that the people who built this place are going to do it better on public land.

[Bruce Kania]

Like, I'm not going to argue with you on that.

[Cal]

All right, thanks a bunch, David.

[Bruce Kania]

Appreciate it.

[Cal]

All right, gang, I apologize for running so high. Phil, do you want to do listener feedback?

[Phil]

Here's the convenient thing, Cal, is that. Are you surprised that the live chat has pretty much devolved into an all out brawl that's kind of toned down a little bit. But you know, I would say there are some people who are level headed and just having a conversation and other people who need to get their shit together and grow up. I had, I had to ban someone for name calling, so.

[Cal]

Oh. So you know, man, you can't be a good advocate if you lead off by telling somebody they're a jerk and then you're like, but you should listen to me. Just. World doesn't work that way.

[Phil]

Anyway, I hope it's the last time I have to do it, but. Yeah, we got a couple, let's do a couple fun ones, right?

[David Wilms]

Yes.

[Phil]

We're having fun today. Let's see, favorite February outdoor activities. You guys have anything specific before turkey season gets, gets going and the transition period.

[David Wilms]

It's been a tough.

[Phil]

From Caleb Tucker.

[Seth Morris]

Ice fishing.

[David Wilms]

Yep. It's been a tough snow, but even that just.

[Cal]

I haven't drilled a single hole through.

[David Wilms]

The ice, so I think I might go.

[Seth Morris]

It's been hard to get motivated this year. Some reason.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the skiing's freaking fantastic. Snap coming up.

[Corey Calkins]

Just.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Seth Morris]

I like shooting guns a lot this time of year to make sure everything's dialed in and.

[Cal]

Yeah. Hard to find a spot to lay down.

[Seth Morris]

That's true. That's true.

[Phil]

One more.

[Cal]

Cal.

[Phil]

I know you're, you're a frequenter. Seth, you are too. Jordan's going to Hawaii tomorrow. He's wondering which islands were you guys on. I'm sure you visited multiple, but do you have any sort of favorite islands, favorite spots on certain islands for certain activities?

[Cal]

You know, the Big island is, is big.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah.

[Cal]

So there's a lot of diversity. Every, every island has, has diversity. But you can get into all sorts of different stuff on the Big island and, and I'll tell you, nobody's gonna stop you for shooting a goat. They've got, they've got plenty.

[Seth Morris]

Big island is cool because you can go from like desert to rainforest to sweat in your ass to freezing your ass.

[Cal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

It's a wild place.

[Cal]

It is, it is, it's. It's really cool. You know, did get into like the Axis Deer you're gonna have to get over to Lanai or Maui, which super, super awesome and certainly love the people over there. So best. Best way to do it is get over there, explore and. And. And make new friends.

[Phil]

Right on.

[Cal]

Cool. That's.

[Phil]

That's all I've got right now. Let's keep it moving.

[Cal]

Sounds good. Okay. Keeping the fun going. Listener hot tip.

[David Wilms]

Oh, wait, we're doing hot tip.

[Cal]

Yeah, Hot tip. What's that face? Don't you stop. There are many words that rhyme with H O T I P A. Let's all do a H O T.

[Phil]

T I. Brody, I'm enjoying your face right now.

[Seth Morris]

That's a great one, Phil.

[Cal]

Thank you.

[David Wilms]

Yeah, I don't know, Phil.

[Phil]

I gotta, you know, I gotta do some more modern stuff, Brody.

[David Wilms]

I can't.

[Phil]

I can't. In the 70s.

[Cal]

I. I learned so much. I learned so much. Like, part of me knows that that's a popular song somewhere.

[David Wilms]

There's no part of me that knows.

[Phil]

That it's got the stink on it.

[Cal]

All right, so ahead of time, we asked you amazing folks, listeners watching, folks watching at home to send in a hot tip off to radio. At the meateater.com we have some molten hot tips sent into the inbox. But we painstakingly had narrowed down to just two submissions for this week's listener hot tip off.

[Phil]

Here we go.

[Cal]

Brandon Meyer.

[I]

Welcome to another hot tip off. Coming to you from 20 below Minnesota. No deer hunter should enter the woods without a roll of toilet paper. Not only is it great for those early morning gas station burritos, but you'll find no better tool for blood trailing than a simple roll. As you go, mark your blood with a piece, hang it on a tree branch, throw it on the ground, wherever you can see it. If you lose track of that deer, you can always look back at your breadcrumbs to see their direction of travel. Not only is it highly visible, but it's biodegradable. It'll be gone to the next rainstorm, and you never have to go back and pick it up. Use toilet paper to help you find your next deer.

[Phil]

Richard Tchaikowski.

[J]

Welcome to another hot Tip off. My name is Richard, coming at you with this week's hot tip. If you ever spent any amount of time outdoors in the cold, you know keeping the feet warm is always a struggle. I was the dog sled guide for four years, and keeping the toes warm was always a battle. So a friend taught me this. Take a little bit of cayenne pepper and you're Just going to sprinkle some on your toes and in your socks. This is going to act as a vasodilator, and it's going to keep your feet warm all day. This stuff works pretty much until you wash it off. I'm not a fan of how toe warmers feel in my boots. Never got into the heated socks and all that jazz. So this stuff is an awesome, cheap alternative to keep the feet warm. This whole jar cost me $4 your first time using it. Don't go dumping a whole jar of cayenne on your feet. Just sprinkle a little bit, see how it works for you, and go from there. But try this out. Get out there, enjoy toasty toys all year long.

[Cal]

All right, all right. So here's the fun part. We are going to vote on who won the hot tip off. The winner is going to get this mole tree cell. Cam. Seth, you got a lot of experience with stuff like this. What. What are your thoughts here with the.

[Seth Morris]

The mo?

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

Oh, they're sweet. I don't use them a whole lot, but I like. I like. I have one up in Alaska just looking over things at the shack.

[Cal]

Oh, yeah. So you're like human surveillance plus. Anything interesting?

[Seth Morris]

I get a lot of deer on there, and it's just cool to see what's going on up there, like, when I'm not.

[Cal]

Yeah. Darn right. Love it. Yeah. Hot commodity. So, boys, we're going cayenne pepper or tp? They kind of. They're kind of related, which is interesting.

[Seth Morris]

Also, I couldn't tell if Richard was, like, messing with us or if that's, like, a legit.

[David Wilms]

He's not.

[Cal]

He threw in vasodilator.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah. It seemed legit.

[David Wilms]

I've heard about it before, but I had forgotten about it.

[Seth Morris]

I'm gonna go. Well, if that's the case, I'm gonna go with Richard, because my feet freeze all the time. I struggle with it.

[David Wilms]

I'm going with Richard, too, because even if it doesn't keep your feet wet, you got some seasoning for your meat. When you kill something in your pack.

[Cal]

Y same could be said for the T.P. like, it's not. Even if your primary focus is blood trailing, it's good to have it in there no matter what. But I think brandish is great.

[David Wilms]

I was just. The whole time, I was thinking, what if it's real snowy out? You can't see that thing.

[Cal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Wilms]

But then you'd be able to see the blood in the snow anyway, I guess.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah.

[Cal]

There you go.

[David Wilms]

Yeah, I'm sticking with Richard.

[Cal]

All right, Richard, congratulations. You got an edge 2 real tree mobile cell camera. Congrats. Seth Morris approved.

[Seth Morris]

Yeah, you'll fall with it.

[Cal]

All right, gang, so our last interview of the day. Bruce, it's been a long time since you logged on. I'm sure. I appreciate your patience. Hopefully you don't think that this is some kind of cockamamie show that has. Has no professionalism to it.

[Brody Henderson]

I think you guys are doing fine. In fact, enjoying the process here. First time you know, with you at least. But yeah, looking forward to a visit.

[Cal]

Awesome. What is Floating Island International?

[Brody Henderson]

We, first of all, we're based here in Montana, outside of Billings on a place called shepherd on the Yellowstone and go Phillies. We're an invention company. We focus around environmental service product technology, including a floating island called the Biohaven. So that's been our primary business since 2005. Today, there's maybe 12,000 islands all over the world.

[Cal]

Well, that sounds like an entire podcast on its own. So I'm going to rein myself back in here. You, how did this work? Did you get in contact with us over the. The methane ice house explosion?

[Brody Henderson]

I did. I read that article and it touched me real directly because for the last six years we'd been researching aquatic methane and today we have developed a data compendium. If anybody out there wants it, would like to do background on this topic. Just send me an email infoloatingislandinternational.com and I'll provide it. The bottom line here is that if you remember back what, 30, 40 years ago, harmful algae blooms were a rare thing. Water was in reasonable shape. Although think Cuyahoga river catching on fire. Stuff like that still happened. But since then, we've had this incredible, incredible increase in harmful algae blooms and other forms of aquatic vegetation that can grow explosively. Mostly connected with fertilizer agriculture even. But today, even healthy lakes are experiencing some of these harmful algae blooms. And that organic material, when it does ultimately die, settled into the bottom, becomes sludge. No oxygen in the sludge. That's where methane occurs.

[David Wilms]

So just real quick, Bruce, what you're talking about is like agricultural runoff into bodies of water that bring like a load of nutrients that then create a massive explosion in plant growth. In plant growth, yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Anything organic that ultimately results in sludge buildup on the bottom of a waterway. And typically if this occurs over in a deep water setting, it's even more likely to result in methane. You're looking at here a scene of a floating island right here at shepherd actually on our research reservoir called Fish Fry Lake. But in that instance, the island is about 3ft thick. We walk on it, we work on it. We rigidified the top of that island so plants aren't happening there. But if you look, you'll see native form of freshwater sponge that did colonize the island. It's. I didn't even know we had fresh a form of sponge here in Montana, but we do. And it's a filter feeder. It's helping clarify the water. Of course. The fish love it. They love the shade, all that.

[Cal]

Boy, that's just getting my mind into a totally different frame right now. This is awesome stuff. So in, in your interpretation, like what happened that, that day on the, on the lake?

[Brody Henderson]

Well, you know, Kel, I can't be a hundred percent. There's other potential explanations, but from what I understand is that there was a surge in organic material in the form of leaves that blew into the lake. And they may have been the ultimate organic material that cycled into methane. But with a lid of ice over the lake, that methane, as it ebulates up in bubble form, it can collect under the ice. So if you open a hole in that in the wrong spot, you can have a flume of methane ebulating up through the ice. And if you're in a contained setting like an ice hut and there's any kind of ignition source, all you have to be is a half of 1% methane in the atmosphere. 5000 ppm technically as 5000 parts per million to flash. And that may have been what happened there. I do know this, that this phenomenon of methane associated with aquatic sources is the single largest source of methane occurring on the planet. Half again, more methane comes off of water than comes from oil and gas.

[David Wilms]

Hey, Bruce. And what like as far as Ice Fisherman goes, like what kind of lake body of water is something like this more likely to happen? Like I'm assuming like a large body of water with, with clear water, rocky bottom, like probably not as big of a risk.

[Brody Henderson]

I think you're right on if you high mountain lake or someplace as far removed from nutrient loading would be relatively safe. You can still have under unusual circumstances, a buildup of methane. But the point is that in a eutrophic or hyper eutrophic water body, that's where you're going to have a lot more of that organic buildup that results in thick layers of sludge. Heck, we have a reservoir here not far from us where sludge deposition is over 80ft deep. That will be a methane factory that's.

[David Wilms]

That like that when you get that real black, smelly mud on the bottom of a pond or whatever, that's a problem.

[Brody Henderson]

Great point. Methane is colorless and odorless, but it's usually accompanied by hydrogen sulfide, which is the deep swamp biogas that most of us have experienced at some point walking in the muck or whatever. So if you smell that, be alert. You might very well be in a situation where lots of methane is occurring.

[Seth Morris]

So, Bruce, if, if I was to punch a hole in a, in a lake somewhere where this could happen, other than like this, the smell, is there anything else that could, you know, show signs that there could be methane under the ice?

[Cal]

Do you have a cigarette in your mouth?

[Seth Morris]

No cigarette.

[Cal]

Okay.

[Seth Morris]

But I'm getting ready to light my little buddy heater.

[Brody Henderson]

We'll start by looking at the ice. If you see bubbles in it, big bubbles especially, then be alert to the fact that could be methane. And if the ice is murky and cloudy and you can't see through it, that's an indication that light isn't making its way through the ice. This methane only occurs under, in the absence of oxygen. So if you've got a, if you're, you know, just drilled a hole over a deep point in the lake and you've got a fish finder, if you can identify fish on the bottom, right against the bottom, that's a good sign that you're not anaerobic, you're not without oxygen, you're not in a methane hotspot. In fact, today there's a sonar technology that can actually work through the ice. And that would be ideal, I mean, looking and verifying whether you got fish on the bottom or not before you punch a hole, that would be the way to go. But ultimately, be smart about it. Look at the ice, let it tell you what's going on. You've got clear ice and maybe some bubbles, but not many. You're probably in good shape. The fact that light is getting through that ice means that there's still oxygen being generated by the green algae that occurs within the water, the green phytoplankton. There are good forms of algae as well as negative ones is the message there.

[Cal]

Kind of like our political discussion. Bruce, thank you so much for, for being on. I, I'll let you know and, and everybody else that There is a GoFundMe. What is it? Or it's a give send, go set up for the family of the recent ice fishing accident in Vermont. Joel shepherd and his daughters Kaylee and [e-mail] forward/shepherd family. If you got a couple of bucks to push their way that, that'd be great. And then Bruce also my mom's just down the road from you out there in shepherd, so.

[Brody Henderson]

Really?

[Cal]

Yeah. This spring I'm gonna come pestery and.

[David Wilms]

Go take jump on one of those islands.

[Cal]

Oh, big time.

[Brody Henderson]

I'll tell you what. I had my brother in law who never caught a fish. He was here last September. He's from England and took him fishing with this monster big surface lure. And I thought well, yeah, it should be fun. Anyway, he gets to fling his big plug around. Really caught 2 bass between 4 and 5 pounds in the space of an hour and a half.

[Seth Morris]

I like the sounds of that.

[Cal]

But hey, thank you so much for being on Floating Island International. If you have any questions for Bruce and want to learn more, go to floatingisland international.com Correct.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. Thank you guys. Have a good day.

[Seth Morris]

Thanks Bruce.

[Cal]

Thank you. Love that. That's awesome. Phil, you want to do another round of.

[Phil]

You know we, we have gotten a lot of questions like we did get one regarding the video game stream. It is happening. I just don't have. I don't have a date yet because I want to make sure that's fun for people to watch, not just fun for me.

[Cal]

So.

[Phil]

But keep your eyes posted. It will happen this year at some point. But thanks. Thanks for catching up. A lot of people say they're going to try the cayenne pepper trick today.

[David Wilms]

Let us know how it works.

[Phil]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You should write right in before Seth dumps it on his feet. Oh yeah. There was a running joke about whose mustache is better, Seth's or Cal's. Do we have an in room Consensus.

[Seth Morris]

Cows is more seasoned.

[Cal]

I think you're talking to two guys who probably don't care that much.

[J]

Yeah.

[Phil]

Michael, Seth is asking how trapping is going.

[Seth Morris]

Haven't been trapping. I like to do a lot of my trapping in the. Either the earlier parts of the winter or in the spring for beaver.

[David Wilms]

Yeah, beaver.

[Seth Morris]

Get going right now everything's just so frozen and covered in snow.

[Cal]

It's just my hands hurt.

[Seth Morris]

Pine Martin Trapping would be great right now if you had a snowmobile and you know, could get out there. But not doing much right now. He.

[Phil]

Travis is also asking if you'll be back on the Montana walleye circuit anytime soon.

[Seth Morris]

I wish. I wish if I get time this summer I'll do some tournaments but. But I just don't have. I'm always gone.

[Cal]

Yep. Just gone too hard to get A rhythm. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I got an update here. If folks are interested in helping out some of our former federally employed stewards of the land. Old Doc Randall Williams sent me a GoFundMe for Rosalie. And Rosalie is. Was just recently laid off. She had just switched jobs in the Forest Service. So she was in that probationary period even though she's been a Forest Service employee for a long time. But she's two months before her due date and just lost income as well as insurance. And I believe Corey and Brody, you guys can probably talk about the importance of insurance when. When mom's about to cab out.

[David Wilms]

Yeah, I wouldn't. You need to not say that.

[Cal]

What, like insurance?

[David Wilms]

Well, no, no, that last part. Find another way to put that. Cal, you've got a serious girlfriend. You need to take that thing more seriously.

[Cal]

So anyway, if you check out GoFundMe, there's a support Rosalie GoFundMe and folks could. Could definitely benefit from a couple extra bucks on that one. Outside of that gang, remember to come see us at Pheasant Fest that's coming up here in March in Kansas City. That's the annual PFQF annual gathering. Always a really fantastic opportunity to get a bunch of people in the room and get just hit over the head with really good conservation work. I'm guarantee you there's going to be a lot of NRCS farm bill talk during the Pheasant Fest this year. That Friday, March 5th, I'm going to be joining Kansas BHA out in DeSoto, Kansas for just kind of a big open to the public round table. Let you know about what BHA and Kansas BHA are working on. And then Sunday at Pheasant Fest joining Pheasants Forever plus the North American Grouse Partnership to talk about this incredibly awesome program regarding endangered species called the Lesser Prairie Chicken Landowner alliance and Lesser Prairie Chicken Man. Fantastic game bird that. You know, the mountain men folks, they used to eat so many of them they get sick of. They'd get sick of them and now they're on the endangered species list. And that happened on our watch. Lots we can be doing about that. And that goes into saving America's grasslands. Outro fellas who I think we just need to hit it again. Like if you're invested in your public lands, that in absolutely no way puts you crossways with any administration. That's your right as an American citizen.

[David Wilms]

Yeah. Stop dwelling on Whoops. The results of the election and dwell on what needs to be dealt with now.

[Cal]

That's right. Yeah.

[Seth Morris]

And there's a lot of folks out there like myself who like a lot of what the current administration is doing, but when it comes to their stance on federal lands, it's just like a, a no go.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah.

[Cal]

You get to say, hey, pump the brakes. Yeah, like what you're doing over here.

[Seth Morris]

So, like, it's, keep it up. It's o okay to like what they're doing and it's okay to not like what they're doing.

[Cal]

Y. It's just not okay to sit on your butt and do nothing. If this stuff matters to you, if you do that, don't, don't write in anymore. I, I hope you enjoyed the show this week. I know we covered a lot of heavy stuff, but we, you know, we're right here with you. This stuff means a heck of a lot to us. I know it means a heck of a lot to you, which is why you watch these fishing and hunting oriented things. So we're going to stay on top of it as much as we can. Please stay in touch. And, and we will too. So thanks again. We'll talk to you next week.

[Stephen Rinella]

Hey, American history buffs, Hunting history buffs, listen up. We're back at it with another volume of our Meat Eaters American History series. In this edition, titled the Mountain Men 1806-1840, we tackle the Rocky Mountain beaver trade and dive into the lives and legends of fellows like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, and John Coulter. This small but legendary fraternity of backwoodsmen helped define an era when the west represented not just unmapped territory, but untapped opportunity for those willing to endure some heinous and at times, violent conditions. We explain what started the Mountain man era and what ended it. We tell you everything you'd ever want to know about what the mountain men ate, how they hunted and trapped, what gear they carried, what clothes they wore, how they interact with Native Americans, how 10% of them died violent deaths, and even detailed descriptions of how they performed amputations on the fly. It's as dark and bloody and good as our previous volume about the white tailed deer skin trade, which is titled the Long Hunters 1761-1775. So again, you can buy this wherever audiobooks are sold. Meat Eaters American History The Mountain Men 1806-1840 by Stephen Rinella.