Ep. 680: Blood Trails - A Turkey Woods Cold Case

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast: Ep. 680 – Blood Trails: A Turkey Woods Cold Case

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Host: Steven Rinella
Release Date: March 25, 2025
Network: The MeatEater Podcast Network

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Overview

In Episode 680 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella delves into the haunting cold case of David Stack, a passionate turkey hunter whose life was tragically cut short in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley. Titled "Blood Trails: A Turkey Woods Cold Case," the episode meticulously unpacks the events surrounding David’s disappearance and murder, the ensuing investigation, and the lingering questions that have left his family searching for answers for over two decades. Through engaging storytelling, insightful discussions with experts, and poignant interviews with those closest to the case, Rinella paints a comprehensive picture of this unresolved tragedy.

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Incident Background

Date and Location:

• Date: April 12, 2003
• Location: David Stack's 190-acre wilderness property in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley

The Victim:
David Stack, 44, was a successful construction business owner with a loving family. His expansive property served as his sanctuary, where he indulged in hunting turkeys and deer or simply enjoyed the serene sounds of nature.

The Day of the Incident:
On the opening day of turkey season, David, along with his son Brian and brother Jeff, embarked on separate hunting spots they had meticulously scouted the night before. At approximately 5:30 AM, Jeff heard a gunshot that felt out of place:

Jeff Stack [01:54]: "It was still dark. I don't think it was legal shooting. And I heard a gunshot and as best as I could tell it came from over near where Dave was. And I said to myself, damn Dave, I don't think that was a legal shot."

Brian also heard shots but, due to windy conditions distorting the sound, dismissed his concerns initially. However, as hours passed without any sign of David returning, unease grew into fear. By noon, his absence was alarming, escalating to panic by 4 PM.

By nightfall, extensive searches involving neighbors, state troopers, and aerial surveillance yielded no results. The following morning, David's body was discovered under perplexing circumstances:

Jeff Stack [03:54]: "That's about the time I then saw Dave laying on his back... I checked. I think I checked the pulse, but it was obvious he was dead."

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Discovery and Initial Observations

Crime Scene Details: David was found lying on his back with a bullet hole in his back, his gun untouched, and his sandwich still in his vest—signs that contradicted an accidental death. Notably, his full face mask was pulled up to his head, and a single cigarette butt was found nearby:

Kenny Graff [05:23]: "If you're familiar with turkey hunt... Dave's was pulled all the way back over top of his head as if someone had pulled it up to see his face."

Inconsistent Details: Several discrepancies raised suspicions:

• Bullet Characteristics: The bullet entered David from behind, cutting his aorta and lodging in his heart, indicating a close-range shot.
• Cigarette Butt: The butt found was of a different brand than what David typically smoked, suggesting the presence of another individual.
• Face Mask and Glasses: Tammy Stack, David’s wife, emphasized that David never adjusted his glasses upward casually, leading to speculation that someone might have moved his mask and glasses to access his face.

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Investigation and Challenges

Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources (DWR) Involvement:
The DWR took over the investigation, but despite initial efforts, the case remains unsolved:

Kenny Graff [04:18]: "We get him out, and I mean, I'm just struggling... It's just no fun at all."

Suspects and Leads:
Neighbors and friends became primary suspects:

• Johnson: A neighbor who initially denied hunting but later pointed investigators toward the exact location where David was found.
• Smith: Alleged to have been hunting on the morning David was killed, though his whereabouts remain unverified.

Both individuals have not been conclusively identified or linked to the crime, leaving the case open with no arrests made.

Lack of Communication:
The Stack family and friends have expressed frustration over the DWR’s limited communication and lack of progress:

Kenny Graff [21:50]: "We had a very hard time for years just getting them to communicate with us and talk to us."

Evidence Handling Concerns:
Questions arose regarding the collection and preservation of evidence:

• The cigarette butt, possibly critical in identifying the shooter, was reportedly not collected by the police.
• A pill bottle found near the property line did not lead to any breakthroughs.

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Neighbor Interactions and Leads

Initial Neighbor Interviews: Kenny Graff recounted his interactions with neighbors, revealing suspicious behaviors:

Kenny Graff [13:27]: "He says, 'shows the property line where his property joins Dave's property... you should look right in this area here.'"

Tips from America’s Most Wanted: A segment aired on the show generated two tips pointing toward Johnson:

Kenny Graff [18:27]: "The second tip says you should talk to he has a hunting camp and he has... hunters there that morning and they left that morning."

Despite these leads, no substantial evidence tying Johnson or Smith to the crime has surfaced, leaving their involvement speculative at best.

Discovery of the Pill Bottle: Years later, Jeff Stack found an empty pill bottle near the crime scene, further complicating the investigation:

Jeff Stack [16:20]: "I found the pill bundle with name on it... It was empty."

This discovery did not yield significant progress, highlighting the difficulties in solving outdoor hunting-related homicides.

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Case Status and Agency Response

DWR’s Current Position:
As of the episode’s release, the case remains active, with special agents assigned and efforts to digitize case files underway. The DWR has escalated the case to the state cold case database in collaboration with the Virginia State Police:

Jordan Sillers [21:04]: "Special agents are currently assigned and they said in an email that, quote, recent investigative measures and evidence examinations have been explored."

Public Information Requests:
Attempts to obtain more detailed information through public records and direct inquiries have been met with resistance, as the DWR maintains the case's confidentiality to protect the investigation’s integrity.

Unanswered Questions:
Key questions remain unanswered, particularly regarding the identity and motive of the shooter:

• Who pulled the trigger?
• Did the shooter know what they had done?
• Was it a hunting accident or something more sinister?

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Expert Opinion: Insights from Brent Reeves

To shed light on the complexities of the case, host Steven Rinella consults with Brent Reeves, a seasoned law enforcement veteran with 32 years of experience, including work in homicide investigations.

Investigation Strategies: Reeves outlines the critical steps in homicide investigations, emphasizing the importance of a secured perimeter, meticulous evidence collection, and thorough canvassing of potential witnesses:

Brent Reeves [28:05]: "You have to build as big a perimeter as you can and slowly work your way from the outside in."

Crime Scene Analysis: Reeves comments on the challenges posed by outdoor crime scenes, where environmental factors can obscure evidence and hinder swift investigation.

Eyewitness Testimony: Tammy Stack highlights the variability in eyewitness observations, noting that different individuals may recall events differently, which can complicate the investigation:

Tammy Stack [34:59]: "Sometimes that would lead one to believe that the statements were manufactured before you got there."

Close-Range Indicators: Reeves and Tammy discuss forensic indicators that the shooter was likely aware of their actions, such as bullet trajectory, penetration, and environmental conditions:

Tammy Stack [38:03]: "If there's what's called stippling around the entrance... it tells you that the person, the barrel of the weapon that was used was not close to the body or to the point of contact."

Advancements in Forensic Science: Reeves underscores the potential for modern forensic techniques to revisit the case, suggesting that existing evidence could be reanalyzed with updated technology:

Tammy Stack [42:19]: "If science has come a long way... resubmission of evidence to a forensics lab would be something that I would look at specifically."

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Challenges in Cold Case Resolution

Lack of Physical Evidence:
With the primary physical evidence either lost or inconclusive, investigators face significant hurdles in linking suspects to the crime.

Aging Witness Statements:
Decades have passed since the incident, leading to faded memories and potential discrepancies in witness testimonies.

Possible Suspect Elusiveness:
If the shooter was not a local resident, their identification and apprehension become even more challenging, reducing the likelihood of closure.

Agency Limitations:
The DWR's tight-lipped approach, while intended to protect the integrity of the investigation, has inadvertently left the case's details shrouded in mystery, frustrating the Stack family and those seeking answers.

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Family’s Plea and Hope for Justice

Tammy Stack’s Appeal:
David’s widow, Tammy, implores the perpetrator to come forward, seeking resolution and an end to the family's prolonged suffering:

Tammy Stack [52:14]: "I just wish that they would come forward, say something. I mean, they've put us through hell. Have a soul man come out and say something."

Family’s Resilience:
Despite the enduring pain, the Stack family remains steadfast in their pursuit of justice, holding onto the hope that new evidence or a willing informant might finally bring closure to this cold case.

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Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode concludes, Steven Rinella emphasizes the importance of community awareness and the potential for new leads to emerge:

Unknown Hunter [52:40]: "I'm telling you, man, there's nothing quite like it gives me chubby just thinking about it..."

The episode serves as both a tribute to David Stack and a call to action for listeners who might hold crucial information to come forward, ensuring that justice is not lost to time.

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Final Thoughts

"Blood Trails: A Turkey Woods Cold Case" stands out as a poignant exploration of a family's loss and the systemic challenges inherent in solving outdoor-related crimes. Through emotional narratives, expert insights, and a thorough examination of investigative procedures, Steven Rinella not only honors David Stack's memory but also sheds light on the broader issues that complicate cold case resolutions. This episode serves as a reminder of the importance of perseverance, community involvement, and advancements in forensic science in the pursuit of justice.

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If you or anyone you know has information about this case, please contact the Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources’ anonymous tip line at 1-800-237-56, text 847-411, or email wildcrimewr.virginia.gov.

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Note: Portions of the transcript containing advertisements and non-content sections have been intentionally omitted to maintain the focus on the case details and discussions.

Transcript

[Unknown Hunter]

Turkey season is here and it's time to break out those calls. Every serious turkey hunter knows every bird is a little different. You never know what will get them going. You may need a trusty old box call, light purrs from a pot call, or maybe some sweet yelps from diaphragms to seal the deal on that old gobbler. But sometimes the hardest part isn't calling them in, it's finding them in the first place. That's where our locator calls come in. From crow calls to owl hooters. We we've got everything you need to get those shot gobbles out of those old toms unwilling to give up their position. Get fully geared up this season with the best tricky calls in the game. Check out the full [e-mail] and make every call count.

[Jordan Sillers]

In 2003, 44 year old David Stack had everything a guy could want. A loving family, a successful construction business and his own piece of wilderness. A sprawling 190 acres in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley. A place where he could disappear into the woods, hunt turkeys and deer or just relax and enjoy the sounds of cicadas and cardinals. It was a place he should have been safe. David, his son Brian and his brother Jeff were excited to hunt turkeys on opening day, April 12th. They'd scouted the night before. They knew where the birds would be. And at 5:30am they split up, each heading to their own pre planned spots. Then the gunshot. Jeff heard it first. Too early, too close. Something about it didn't feel right.

[Jeff Stack]

It was still dark. I don't think it was legal shooting. And I heard a gunshot and as best as I could tell it came from over near where Dave was. And I said to myself, damn Dave, I don't think that was a legal shot.

[Jordan Sillers]

Brian heard shots too, but the wind was up. The sound bounced around the hills and trees. He couldn't be sure where it had come from so he shook it off.

[Brian Stack]

I dozed off and woke up to birds in my decoys. I could hear him out there spitting and drumming and that was actually my first gobbler. You know I shot the bird that morning, I think it was 8:59 o'clock somewhere in there and you know I was excited, fired up and you know I got my stuff together and, and was heading back to the cabin. I wanted to show it off.

[Jordan Sillers]

But David never came back. No texts, no radio calls, nothing. By noon, concern turned to unease. By 4pm Unease became fear.

[Brian Stack]

Eventually we started you Know, just whistling and calling, trying to, you know, get some kind of response. And this went on till, shoot, probably, you know, 4:00. And then we really started getting worried. It turned from, you know, worry to panic.

[Jordan Sillers]

They searched the woods, called his name. Nothing. By nightfall, the search intensified. Neighbors, state troopers, a helicopter circling overhead, but still no sign of David. Then early the next morning, they found him.

[Jeff Stack]

I saw the turkey decoys. At first I thought it was turkey, but they were decoys. And then there was turkeys in the trees right above them that we. That we spooked or jumped or whatever you want to call them.

[Tammy Stack]

And they flew out of the trees.

[Jeff Stack]

That's about the time I then saw Dave laying on his back. I did. I did not, you know, of course, I was very emotional. And anyway, I checked. I think I checked the pulse, but it was obvious he was dead.

[Jordan Sillers]

And the way his body was found, something was off. Kenny Graff, a close friend of David's, was there when they pulled his body from the woods after the crime scene had been processed. He'd been in law enforcement nearly two decades. He knew what an accident looked like, and this was not that.

[Kenny Graff]

And we go to pick him up, and I get blood on my hands. We roll him over to one side, and he's got a bullet hole in his back. So that's when they say something's not right. This isn't an accidental death.

[Jordan Sillers]

A bullet hole in his back. No sign of a struggle. His gun untouched, his sandwich still in his vest.

[Kenny Graff]

We get him out, and I mean, I'm just. As a human being, I'm just struggling. I mean, I am struggling. It's. It's a bitch carrying your best friend out of the dead body out of the woods. You know what I mean? It's just no fun at all.

[Jordan Sillers]

But what stood out the most? The face mask pulled up and a single cigarette butt lying next to him.

[Kenny Graff]

If you're familiar with turkey hunt, which I'm sure you are, you know, you wear the full face mask and this and that for the sprang gobbler, to keep the reflection off your face and stuff. Dave's was pulled all the way back over top of his head as if.

[Jordan Sillers]

Someone had pulled it up to see his face. For 20 years, no one has answered the one question that matters most. Who pulled that trigger. The Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources says the case is still open. But in all these years, no suspects have been named, no grand jury has been convened, no arrests have been made. Kenny, Jeff, and Brian believe the shooter knew exactly what they had done. They stood over David, looked at him and walked away. But why?

[Brent Reeves]

Was it a mistake? A moment of panic?

[Jordan Sillers]

Or was it something worse? I'm Jordan Sillers and this is Blood Trails A Turkey Woods Cold Case Part one. The Crime scene. Jeff, Brian and Kenny all saw the crime scene, but their descriptions don't always match up. Here's Kenny.

[Kenny Graff]

You can see where Dave cleared out a little spot to sit by a tree, had a decoy set up. His gun was leaning against the tree. He's just laying on his back. And I noticed there was a cigarette butt put out right there. Now, Dave did smoke once in a while and he had part of a pack in his backpack. But this brand that was on the ground was a different brand than what Dave smoked.

[Jordan Sillers]

Kenny was a detective for 19 years with the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority. He told me he's worked drug and homicide cases with other federal agencies. So he's the kind of guy who might notice the brand name of a cigarette butt lying on the ground. Brian and Jeff don't remember anything about a cigarette butt. Brian remembers the shotgun leaning against the tree and they both agree that someone.

[Brent Reeves]

Had walked up to the body.

[Jordan Sillers]

Here's Brian.

[Brian Stack]

He was laying away from the tree somewhat. His face mask was pulled down, his glasses were pushed up. His sandwich was still in his vest. The decoys were only like, like 15 yards, 16 yards from him, which is unusual. So I don't think that was his location. I don't know if that's where he was setting up or what. But it definitely seemed unusual with the. How close he was to the decoys with a gun sitting against the tree there. And you know how the fate. His face mask was pulled down. The glasses are up.

[Jordan Sillers]

Those glasses are more important than they might sound. David's wife, Tammy didn't see the crime scene herself, but her knowledge of her husband gave her an important insight into what those glasses might indicate.

[Tammy Stack]

They said his glasses were up. Like he pushed his glasses up on top of his head and he, he would never, ever, ever do that. He, he would take them off and hang them from a shirt or take them off and send them to some place he couldn't stand having them up. Just. I just, I just have this gut feeling that whoever did it knows that they did it.

[Jordan Sillers]

I reached out to the Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources to confirm some of these details, but they refused, citing the ongoing investigation. Fortunately for us, the agency hasn't always.

[Brent Reeves]

Been so tight lipped.

[Jordan Sillers]

The incident gained tons of local media attention after it happened. And one of the best reports came in a May 3 edition of the Roanoke Times. Here's what the Virginia DWR then called the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries told reporters in the weeks following the murder. The shooting occurred on a property near the Salville Hill section of Rockbridge county between South Buffalo Road and Bluegrass Trail. David was likely leaning against a tree when he got shot. The bullet entered his body from behind, cut his aorta and lodged in his heart. The terrain and angle at which the bullet struck David indicated indicate that the shooter fired at close range and would have been able to tell what he'd hit. The hill and brush in the area would have kept the bullet from traveling very far. Kenny told me that the bullet itself came from a.22 caliber Centerfire cartridge, such as a.223 Remington.222 Remington or.22.250. I wasn't able to find any contemporaneous media reports with this information, and the DWR refused to name the kind of.

[Brent Reeves]

Bullet that David But I did speak.

[Jordan Sillers]

With one of the neighbors, a man named James Leyva, who still owns one of the adjacent properties. He declined to be recorded for this podcast, but he told me he was also turkey hunting. The morning David was killed, game wardens knocked on his door in the weeks after the incident and asked if he owned any rifles chambered in a Centerfire.22 caliber cartridge. He did. In fact, he said he hunts turkeys during the fall season with a rifle chambered in.22 Hornet, but he was hunting with a shotgun on the morning of the incident. Game wardens apparently believed his story because, according to Leyva, they sent his rifle to Richmond for ballistics testing and returned it about a month later. Whatever they found, it either didn't point to Leyva or was inconclusive. But this suggests, at least at the time, investigators believe, David was killed with a centerfire. 22. Many states do not allow turkey hunters to use rifles, but Virginia is not one of them. To this day, the only restriction they put on a turkey hunter's gun is that during the spring season they cannot use shot larger than number two. Kenny, Jeff and Brian all agree that the shooting was most likely an accident. They don't recall David having any ongoing conflicts with anyone or any of the neighbors being upset about the recent purchase of the land.

[Brian Stack]

Here's Brian My hunch is it's either was a young hunter inexperienced or older hunter that had poor vision. I don't think it's anything in malice, you know, done on purpose, but I don't know.

[Jordan Sillers]

Part Two, the neighbors. Cases like this are difficult to investigate. There are no witnesses, and what physical evidence exists is hard to find in the leaves and dirt. But if you're like me, your first thought goes to the neighbors. It's easy to imagine a neighboring property owner wanders onto the Stack's land, sees what he thinks is a turkey in the dimness of the morning and pulls the trigger. That's where Kenny's mind went to even before his friend's body had been found. While the rest of the Stack family was still searching the woods, he paid a visit to the neighbors that daylight.

[Kenny Graff]

The next morning, which was the 13th, April 13th. I'm thinking, well, maybe the neighbors know something.

[Jordan Sillers]

Kenny told me the names of the people who lived there, but we're going to bleep them out. None of them still live on those properties as far as I've been able to tell. And the Virginia DWR has never named an official suspect. You'll see why that's relevant here in a minute. The first house Kenny visited belonged to someone we'll call Johnson.

[Kenny Graff]

We had met him the previous fall because he came over, he was looking for his dog and we talked to him a little bit. He says, I don't hunt. I don't allow him to hunt. I go to his house, play to him again who I was. And I was looking for David. Wonder if he heard or seen anything. He said, no. And I remember thinking when I was standing in his house, he's got all these turkey mounts and deer mounts. And I'm thinking I just got told me he did not so, huh? I didn't say anything about it, Dan. But he pulls out a map and this could be coincidence. Don't get me wrong, this could be coincidence. But he pulls out a map and he points at the map and he says shows the property line where his property joins Dave's property. He says, you should look right in this area here. You should look right in this area here.

[Jordan Sillers]

Remember, Kenny spoke to Johnson before they'd found David's body. So I asked Kenny what you're thinking was the spot he pointed to the same spot they eventually found David.

[Kenny Graff]

It was within feet. Within feet.

[Jordan Sillers]

Kenny admits that this could be explained.

[Brent Reeves]

In a non nefarious way.

[Jordan Sillers]

Johnson wouldn't be the first hunter to hide the fact that he's a hunter. And it doesn't make much sense to lead investigators to the person you just murdered the day before. Still, it's weird. But Kenny's interactions with the neighbors got even stranger. Kenny stopped by another house where an elderly man told him that while he doesn't hunt, one of his friends had been hunting on the morning David was killed. We'll call this friend Smith. Smith lived down the road, so Kenny knocked on the door, but nobody answered. Kenny left a message on Smith's answering machine using the phone number the elderly neighbor had given him. Kenny went back to the stack's cabin and the phone rang. The woman on the line claimed to be Smith's wife.

[Kenny Graff]

She says, doesn't know anything, didn't see anything, didn't hunt. And I said, told me he was hunted. Told me his truck was parked at his house. Oh, yeah, but he hunted the opposite side of the road. And I'm thinking to myself, how do you know what side of the road David was on? You know what I mean? How do you know what side of the road I'm talking about?

[Jordan Sillers]

Kenny didn't think too much about it at the time, and David's body was found not long after. But that's not the last he heard of Smith. A year or two after David's death, Jeff was walking the property and he found something, something very out of place in the woods.

[Jeff Stack]

I found the pill bundle with name on it. It was right on the property line. It was a prescription for one of, you know, one of these common kind of antidepressant types.

[Kenny Graff]

It was empty.

[Jordan Sillers]

Jeff said the place he found the bottle near the property line would have been less than a 10 minute walk from where they found David's body. He sent the bottle to the lead investigator on the case at the time, but never heard anything more. The investigator has since passed away and Kenny says they haven't heard anything from the DWR for years. The shooter could have been a neighbor, but it also could have been someone who didn't live in the area. That would make the culprit even more difficult to find and it would help explain how this case has gone unsolved. Neither Jeff, Kenny or Brian ever mentioned having a problem with trespassers. But Kenny did mention one alternative theory. One of the original DWR investigators on this case, a guy named Steven pike, knew a producer on the television show America's Most Wanted. He wanted to give this case as much exposure as possible, so he asked the producer for a favor. It wasn't the kind of story the program usually covered, but they decided to do it anyway. The segment aired on November 1, 2003 in episode 737 of the show. Younger listeners might not remember, but America's Most Wanted was a hit show back in the day at the time of its cancellation by the Fox television network in June 2011. Its 24 season run made it the longest running program in the network's history and each episode was watched by thousands. The point is, including David's story on amw, as its fans call it, would have exposed the case to a huge audience. The segment on David ended with an appeal to that audience for tips. We don't know exactly what kind of information came in, but Kenny claims that two tips came in from people in Rockbridge county, one of which pointed back to Johnson.

[Kenny Graff]

The second tip says you should talk to he has a hunting camp and he has. He had hunters there that morning and they left that morning.

[Jordan Sillers]

Kenny claims that Johnson was running an illegal hunting camp and investigators spoke with several of the people who had hunted that morning.

[Kenny Graff]

They talked to a couple people that were there that morning but had left around 10 o'clock. And I'm thinking to myself, it's opening day is spring gobbler season. Why do you leave at 10am and go home?

[Jordan Sillers]

It's a good question. David may have been killed not by a neighbor, but by someone who didn't live in the area. That person could have been hunting legally or they could have been a poacher. In either case, the randomness of that scenario could make it even more likely that David's killer is never found.

[Unknown Hunter]

I'm telling you, man, there's nothing quite like it gives me chubby just thinking about it. You hit the call and way off in the distance, a tom fires back. You work him in, watching his body language shift from cautious to committed. Then that moment, the one every turkey hunter dreams about all winter. Zach Gobbler locks eyes on your decoy and comes running in. And if you're using the right decoy, you don't need to then settle for a 40 yard nervous shot. Because with the right decoy, you can get that bird in your lap. Putting on a wild, aggressive turkey show. I mean, I'm talking where he's fighting the decoy. I've had him sitting there trying to mate with the decoy. It's the best thing in the world. But to pull it off, you need realism like you need decoys that don't just fool turkeys at a distance. You want a decoy that fools him when he's up there at point blank range beating the snot out of it. That is why Die Hard turkey hunters insist on Dave Smith decoys. Their unmatched realism fools even the wariest of toms into thinking they're staring and fighting a real bird. And unlike inflatable decoys that crumble when shot, DSDs are built tough. They last season after season, even if you screw up and put a little TSS into one of them. To top it all off, every DSD turkey decoy is made right here in the good old US of A. Made in America. Check out the full [e-mail] and take your turkey hunts to the next level.

[Jordan Sillers]

Part 3 the DWR, the Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources says this case is still considered active. Special agents are currently assigned and they said in an email that, quote, recent investigative measures and evidence examinations have been explored. They've digitized the case files and they're collaborating with Virginia State Police to have the case added to the state cold case database. So someone is working on it. How much they're working on it is a different question. Kenny says he hasn't heard from the agency in the last four or five years. In the meantime, his frustration has only increased.

[Kenny Graff]

We had a very hard time for years just getting them to communicate with us and talk to us. I don't want to say, hey, these guys screwed up, but somebody screwed up. And it's a shame. It really is. Having been a law enforcement officer myself for 25 years, I don't understand to this day why this case wasn't solved within a few days. I really don't.

[Jordan Sillers]

Kenny believes the agency failed to collect all the evidence at the scene and they failed to investigate the neighbors closely enough. Specifically, Johnson and Smith. Remember that cigarette butt I mentioned at the beginning of the episode? The one that, according to Kenny, was a different brand than the one David smoked?

[Kenny Graff]

Believe it or not, they didn't collect it. They, police did not collect it. I was assuming they collected it. And then a few months later, I talked to. I was talking to DNR and I said, well, what about cigarette butt? Kind of like, what cigarette butt?

[Jordan Sillers]

It's possible Kenny was mistaken and that the cigarette butt was actually David's. It's also possible whoever Kenny asked didn't know or was lying. Or it's possible Kenny just made the whole thing up. But whatever the truth is, the DWR isn't saying. I filed a public records request asking for documents related to this case. The agency responded and said that while they have 110 pages of files, they can't release any because they're part of an ongoing criminal investigation. Fair enough. Then on June 7, 2024, I sent an email to the agency's public information department and asked to interview the agent in charge of the case. The agency initially agreed to an interview, but wanted to see and approve any questions prior to the interview being recorded. So I sent a list of questions on July 3, 2024, asking about everything you've heard in this episode. Cigarette butt, the pill bottle, Johnson and Smith. I even asked for the agency to confirm a few of the details that they had shared with the Media in 2003. Things like how far away the shooter was and whether he likely knew what he'd done on November 15, 2024. Which was, for those counting. Over four months after I'd sent the list of questions, the DWR backed out of the phone interview they'd previously agreed to. Why? Well, here's what they out of an abundance of caution to protect the integrity of the investigation, the department will not be available for any in person interviews or discussions. Instead, they responded to my list of questions with typed answers. But they refused to share any details of the case beyond when and where it happened, they said, quoting again, DWR Conservation Police officers spent a considerable amount of time and effort to identify the person responsible for Mr. Stack's death and followed all leads that were provided and developed through the course of the investigation. Specifics about their investigation are not available due to this being an open investigation. The only new piece of information they offered was about whether they ever identified a suspect. They said, quote, several persons of interest have been identified. These persons have been interviewed and declined a polygraph. Whoever those people were, the agency didn't gather enough information to make an arrest. Part 4 An expert's opinion I don't know about you, but I have more questions than answers about this case. I frankly don't understand why the Virginia DWR hasn't been more helpful. I wonder how investigators knew what kind of bullet killed David. And I wonder whether they used every investigative technique at their disposal. To help answer some of these questions, I called up my buddy and meat eater's own, Brent Reeves. You know Brent as the host of this Country Life, where he dispenses down home wisdom in a deep and melodious baritone. But Brent wasn't always a world famous podcast host. In a previous life, he served for 32 years as a law enforcement agent in Arkansas. He's investigated homicide cases himself, so I knew he'd be the perfect person to help us break down this case.

[Brent Reeves]

Brett, thanks for being here.

[Tammy Stack]

Yeah man, thank you for inviting me on here.

[Brent Reeves]

So I know that you were in law enforcement for a long time, but could you fill in some of those details? What agencies did you work for and what kinds of things did you do?

[Tammy Stack]

Well, I was a police officer, a law enforcement officer for 32 years and seven months. The first two thirds of my. My career, I was actually doing police work. What people think of as police work, answering calls, working accidents, investigating, you know, robberies and thefts, crimes, including homicides. And with a large portion of that, my career was dedicated to undercover narcotics and narcotics investigations. But when homicides would occur, especially in a department limited by manpower, and I'm talking about in the biggest department I worked in, in South Arkansas, I think we had probably 40, maybe 40 deputies, sworn officers that were working every day, and they would bring the whole CID investigation division into work. A homicide, which over the course of my career, you know, probably 45, 50 homicides during that. During that length of time.

[Brent Reeves]

So if. If you were assigned this case back in 2003, I'm curious what the first.

[Jordan Sillers]

Steps are on the first.

[Brent Reeves]

In the first few days, first few weeks, what kinds of strategies would you use to try to figure out who. Who did this?

[Tammy Stack]

Well, you know, the crime scene, that's. That's important. And limiting a crime scene, the parameters of where you're operating, is important. Anytime that you're working with something outdoor, especially like this, and even add the fact that someone died as a result of a rifle shot, there's no telling how big your crime scene is. The cards are stacked against you to begin with in something like this. So as large a perimeter as you can gather or that you can secure, and then it's just the meticulous going through everything that is conceivably close to where the incident occurred. Because there's two places here that are important. Where the shot was fired from, and obviously where the shot was fired to which caused the death of the man. And in doing so, anytime that you approach or leave a crime scene, you take something in and you take something out unwittingly, you're stepping on leaves, you're making tracks, you're sweating, you're dropping DNA. There's so many things to consider that could either help or hinder the investigation. Maybe you stepped on something you didn't see. A hole or a track, or in this case, cigarette butt. I think that was a kind of a controversial part of what people saw there. So there's. To answer your question, how would I approach it? You have to build as big a perimeter as you can and slowly work your way from the outside in.

[Jordan Sillers]

And then.

[Brent Reeves]

So once you've done that with the crime scene, would you then be Canvassing the neighbors and seeing if they saw anything or heard anything.

[Tammy Stack]

Absolutely. I mean, you got to talk to, you've got to run out every conceivable pathway, even if it's talking to the garbage man or the mail carrier, anybody that makes a regularly route through there along with neighbors, anybody within earshot, anybody within reason that could have possibly saw something that morning that stood out of place, or saw something that wasn't out of place, but just saw something, you got to exhaust every available opportunity to gather information as quick as possible. There was an old TV show, the First 48, it was called, I think it was on A and E. And we had a homicide that I worked that actually was a focus of that. And it's True, the first 48 hours are usually the most critical, especially in something that's outside, outdoors. You're affected by all kinds of environment, environmental conditions, rain, wind, temperatures, whatever. Like I said at the beginning, the deck is stacked against you from the get go when you're dealing with anything outside. And time is absolutely a crucial factor in finding the correct path that you need to go from there to lead to where the suspect is.

[Brent Reeves]

So I know you haven't seen the.

[Jordan Sillers]

Files on this case.

[Brent Reeves]

I haven't seen the files on this case either. But just based on what you know, from what I've been told, you've listened to the podcast, what jumps out at you about this case, about the crime scene, about the investigation, anything kind of seem out of the ordinary.

[Tammy Stack]

The magnitude of it is what jumps out at me. Just the magnitude of the, of the size of the crime scene. There's a lot to take in there. There's a lot, a lot to look at. And that to me, through this whole thing has been, I guess, one of the key features, another one being, unfortunately, the gentleman was found by his friends. And you put emotion into testimony, you put emotion into the things that were seen and observed and sometimes it affects what was saw. Now, I should have said this at the very beginning and my heart goes out to the gentleman's family and his friends, but unfortunately, and I've said this before, and it is a proven fact that if you want two different eyewitnesses or two different statements to the same thing, get two eyewitnesses to it. Because other, because people observe and look at different things, different things stand out to them. It's not saying that they're wrong, but if you've got two people that saw the exact same thing and when they write their statement, they are word for word, verbatim what's going on of what supposedly happened. Sometimes that would lead one to believe that the statements were manufactured before you got there. This obviously was not there. That was not in this case at all. But different people see different things, and some people, you know, there's confirmation bias in everything. And you just have to be very careful about taking statements from people who are emotionally and physically and mentally involved with something and running out the line of questions to those folks to make sure that they saw what they saw. Give them every opportunity to prove what they saw. The face mask was something that stood out in the interior of this crime is how the gentleman's turkey mask was pulled up and his face was exposed. Now, I want to think, if I remember you, correct me if I'm wrong, Jordan. That was what led folks to believe that the shooter had approached the person and to identify him. Is that. Am I correct in that assumption?

[Brent Reeves]

Yeah, there was a face mask. And then also David's wife, Tammy said that the glasses. Glasses, yeah. And she said he never did that. He hated having his glasses kind of pushed up on his face. So, yeah, those are the two things that made people think someone had done that to see his face.

[Tammy Stack]

Okay. I'm not going to say that that didn't happen. I'm also going to say that there's reasonable doubt that that was done. I can't tell you how many times I have left my truck going to a spot to turkey hunt, knowing where I was going to sit down and put my decoys out before daylight and getting completely ready and camoed up before I shut the door of my truck with my turkey mask flipped over the, on the top of my head and walking to where I'm going. You know, a turkey mask, it's got holes in it. You can see out of it. But when it's DM outside or dark, it's absolutely in the way and hinders your peripheral vision. So there's reasonable doubt. There's. There's a reason to think that just because that was done, there's got to be other factors in there that to prove that that was correct. It's not a bad theory by any means, but it's also not, you know, 100% the glasses on top of his head. His wife would know him better than anyone. You know, that's obviously something that should have been looked at or should be looked at and considered as well in the totality of the, of the crime scene, of what they saw there. But, you know, to say, and I don't want to sound you know, unfeeling about this, but if he didn't die instantly, he could have pushed his glasses up on top of his head after he was hit accidentally, you know, just in the course of being hit, struck from the bullet.

[Brent Reeves]

So, yeah, and I think this is one of the big questions about this.

[Jordan Sillers]

Case, and it matters a lot to.

[Brent Reeves]

The family, is whether the shooter knew what he'd done. Right. So it's one thing if it's a stray bullet, they have no idea. It's another thing, you know, even if the shooter didn't walk up to the body, if they were close enough to know something had happened and then walked away and has never come forward, that matters a lot to. To the family and friends. And this is a point that the dwr, initially, in the months after the murder, they said they think the shooter was aware that he was close enough to know. And then when I asked them, they said, well, we can't speculate on that. So just from your experience investigating cases, what kinds of evidence would they be looking at to indicate that the shooter was close enough to know that they had a knowledge of what they'd done and just decided to walk away?

[Tammy Stack]

Well, the caliber of bullet that was used, the amount of penetration into the victim's body, the angle that it was, there's a lot of things that can go into that. You know, there's a. If something is at close range and close. If there's what's called stippling around the entrance, the wound is always an indicator of something being fired at close range, which is gunpowder and debris that gets absorbed into the skin from close contact wound that wasn't there. It obviously tells you that the person, the barrel of the weapon that was used was not close to the body or to the point of contact. So then you're going to go by the amount of penetration and the force that the bullet retained from whatever distance it was shot from. So that could be clues as to how far it was away. The time of day. And being able to see in that environment was something. I think some of the guys that were hunting with him testified that, you know, the shot was so early, one guy thought, wow, is that legal? Well, that leads me to believe that, you know, it was just, you know, breaking day out there, that there was just enough light to be able to see if he questioned one way or the other, if that was legal to be shooting that early. Which also makes me think that, or would lead me, has led me to believe that if he was shot from, you know, a distance away. It was after his decoys were set up and he was moving around and someone thought it was a turkey already on the ground and took a shot, which was, you know, that's a violation of the first rule of hunting, of safe hunting, is shooting, not making sure you knew what you were shooting at when you pulled the trigger. But that's what you know. It's so hard to come up with conjecture. It's purely conjecture on my part from reading and listening to this podcast and having to come up with some type of credible scenario in which it happened. But from everything that I've taken at face value that's been heard here on this podcast, it would lead me to believe, with no motive, no known motive of someone being angry or having a problem with the victim, that this was a hunting accident which resulted in the homicide of a turkey hunter, a man. And whoever it was left the scene and didn't report it. That's everything that I can take at face value and come up with in my mind.

[Brent Reeves]

So next month it'll be 22 years, if I'm doing my math right, since this incident happened. What can be done at this point? If this was your case now, what kinds of things would you be doing to help solve this?

[Tammy Stack]

I would, you know, all the evidence that was gathered, whatever evidence was gathered from there, if there. Science has come a long way, if, if there was physical evidence gathered there other than, you know, I think there was been some miscommunication or different stories about the cigarette butt, the different cigarettes, brand of cigarette butt that was found there. Somebody remembered it, another person didn't. And did you? I don't know. I don't remember. If you got a straight answer from the DWR about if there was any of that gathered there or did they say anything about any physical evidence?

[Jordan Sillers]

No, they, they didn't.

[Brent Reeves]

They said to protect the integrity of the case, they can't release that kind of information.

[Tammy Stack]

I got you. Okay. And that's, that's true, obviously. So. But to answer your question, what would I do different? Anything, physical evidence wise, that could have been submitted at that time to a forensics lab could be resubmitted. You know, testing has improved dramatically. Different tests have been developed and invented since then for as far as DNA and different types of physical evidence that could be garnered from a crime scene. So, you know, a resubmission of evidence to a forensics lab would be something that I would look at specifically. Yeah.

[Brent Reeves]

One of the things that surprised me a bit in my interactions with the DWR is like I said in the podcast, initially they agreed to an interview and then they, they backed out there. They didn't share a lot of information about the evidence, like the cigarette butt. And they said that all of this was to protect the integrity of the case. As a, as a former law enforcement officer, can you break that down a little bit for us? Because for, for a layman like myself, I don't, I don't quite understand why sharing a little bit more information to help get the word out about this case would damage it, especially having not been solved for so long. Could you help me understand kind of the practical negative consequences of them sharing.

[Tammy Stack]

Too much information in something like this? Knowledge is power. I can't tell you how many times. And there's been some famous cases of people confessing to different things, different crimes that were totally, you know, made up lies from the beginning because that when asked certain details about a case, they couldn't give them or they gave the wrong details. And it's just, it's the, it takes the investigators priorities away from investigating something that, that could be legitimate to go down the rabbit hole of chasing ghosts and something that's incorrect. So keeping as much critical, critical, crucial evidence in a closed area or in a box where it's not subject to public information, it keeps the, the power, I guess, on the side of the investigators to be able to go after a certain. If they laid everything out there, you know, we've got fingerprints or we've got DNA or we've got this or got that, anything that could be construed by the suspect, even, you know, we've got a hull, we've got the rifle hole that, that fired the shot. So as soon as we find the right suspect, we're going to match this hole with that rifle. Well, if that rifle is gone forever, you know, he gets rid of that rifle, there's no way to connect it. So. And these are very arbitrary and things that I'm giving you. But to keep portions of the evidence and the things that they have in the investigation private is crucial a lot of times in solving the case. That's why that they would play those cards very close to their, to their chest.

[Brent Reeves]

Because maybe whoever did it or the family of whoever did it could take actions that would, like you say, with the rifle, get rid of the rifle, that would undermine the evidence that they have.

[Tammy Stack]

Absolutely. Mm.

[Brent Reeves]

Can you tell me a little bit about. Because I, I would have asked this to, to the dwr, but I know you've had this experience of you're investigating A case and you're, you're being criticized by the family of the victim, by the friends of the victim for not doing enough. Can you tell me a little bit about what that's like?

[Tammy Stack]

I've got one. You know, you and I talked earlier about this. I've got one unsolved homicide in my career. It's the only copy of a case file that I brought home from my career one. And it haunts me to this day. And I know who did it. We know who did it. We just never got the physical evidence to put them, to get them arrested for it. And here's the thing that you got to think about. Once you arrest somebody, if you have enough to arrest them but not enough to convict them, and you go take them to trial on the chance that you might get them convicted and they get found guilty, that's it. That was your swing. You don't get another chance. That's the end of it. There are no other tries. So there is. In my 30 plus years of being a police officer, I've never worked with any investigations, any investigation or any department where solving a case was not their number one goal. Being closed mouth about how the investigation is going and the tactics that you have to use and the pride that you have to swallow when you're accused of not doing enough. It's tough, man, it's tough. But you know, we understand, and I understand that that's coming from a place of emotion because these, these people have had a great loss and they want justice. In my experience, there has never been anyone that wanted justice for a family any more than the folks investigating the case. And it's, it's just, it's part of it, it's part of the things that police officers deal with. And I'm glad to talk about it now because it's a struggle. It's a hard thing to do. It's a hard thing to live with. It's not something that I could go to work for eight or nine or ten hours a day and leave at the office and go home. Because when I went home, I was with my wife and my family. Somebody wasn't going home to their wife, the victim, or their husband or their father or mother. And that, that weighed on me heavily. And it weighs on, I'm sure it weighs on these folks. And I can assure you that there's no greater joy than to be able to call someone or go and see them and tell them, look, it ain't going to bring the victim back. But we found who did it. And they're going to, you know, they're going to pay. So it's. It's a job that I volunteered for. I wasn't made to do it. I'm not asking for sympathy and I'm not giving sympathy to these guys, but I can understand where they're coming from. And it's just a. It's just another. It's a pretty tough road to hoe until you get somebody arrested and get them gone. But that's. That's their job and that's what they're there for.

[Jordan Sillers]

Thanks, Brent.

[Brent Reeves]

I really appreciate you coming on and answering some of these questions for us.

[Tammy Stack]

You bet, man. Good luck to these guys and appreciate what you're doing. Bringing. Bringing light to something. Maybe another obviously deserves another look. And I hope we get this thing to fruition. I'll be. I'll be right here with you when you do it.

[Jordan Sillers]

Part 5 what's next? As with many cold cases, David's death may not be solved unless someone who knows something comes forward. At least that's what a DWR agent told Kenny.

[Kenny Graff]

He says just gonna have to wait for somebody's wife to get mad.

[Jordan Sillers]

In the interest of keeping this show semi family friendly, we can't air Kenny's response to that comment. But you can imagine it's a frustrating place for the family to be, especially when you think the DWR hasn't done enough. But it may be true that the only way this case will ever be solved is if someone's wife gets mad or someone's grandchild learns the truth, or someone's neighbor finally does the right thing. There isn't any more physical evidence that can be collected from the crime scene. It's been nearly 22 years since David was murdered. And while time might heal all wounds, it also clouds memory and dulls whatever moral compass the killer may have once had. There was, at one point a $36,000 reward for information leading to the conviction of the killer. But that's no longer on the table. David's kids say their father always encouraged them to follow their consciences, to tell the truth. Those three kids are now grown with kids of their own, but they've had to live for the last 20 years wondering what happened to their dad. Now their only request is that whoever did this, or whoever knows who did this, follow their dad's advice. Listen to your conscience.

[Brent Reeves]

Do what's right.

[Jordan Sillers]

That's what Tammy said, too, when I asked her what she'd say to the person responsible for killing her husband.

[Tammy Stack]

I just wish that they would come forward, say something. I mean, they've put us through hell. Have a soul man come out and say something. I don't, I don't think they did it on purpose, but come forward and say something. Don't put the family through all this and all these years, just not knowing. You know, I, I hope nobody ever has to go through what we had to go through.

[Jordan Sillers]

If you or anyone you know has any information about this incident, the DWR asks that you call their anonymous tip line at 1-800-23756. You can also text your tip to 847-411 or send an email to wildcrimewr.virginia.gov the murder took place in Virginia's Rockbridge county on April 12, 2003, the opening.

[Brent Reeves]

Day of spring gobbler season.

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