Episode Summary: The MeatEater Podcast - Ep. 689: A National Forest Supervisor Speaks Out

In Episode 689 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella welcomes Scott Fitzwilliams, the former Supervisor of the White River National Forest in Colorado. Released on April 14, 2025, this episode delves deep into the intricate challenges facing the U.S. National Forest system, particularly focusing on public land management, legislative impacts, and budgetary constraints. Through an engaging dialogue filled with expert insights, the episode sheds light on the complexities of managing one of the most trafficked forests in the country.

1. Introduction and Guest Background

Cal, one of the co-hosts, introduces Scott Fitzwilliams, highlighting his significant role in managing the White River National Forest—a sprawling 2.3 million-acre area that is the most visited forest in the United States, boasting over 17 million annual visitors and supporting over 22,000 jobs in surrounding communities. Scott, at 60 years old, resigned amidst workforce cuts and increasing political pressures on federal land management agencies.

Cal [01:25]: "The gentleman we have here joining us today was prompted to leave that post at the age of 60 based on some of the things that are going on right now with attacks on federal land management agencies."

2. Public Lands and Management Challenges

The conversation begins with a discussion on the crucial role of public lands in supporting local economies and recreation. Scott emphasizes the decentralized nature of the Forest Service, a system established by Gifford Pinchot and Theodore Roosevelt in 1905, which prioritizes local decision-making aligned with community needs.

Scott Fitzwilliams [25:59]: "They purposely set it up where it was very decentralized. We want the decision-making where the communities are. We want the decision-making where it affects people."

3. Legislative Impact: North Carolina Senate Bill 220

Cal raises concerns about North Carolina Senate Bill 220, which proposes making it illegal to launch small vessels like kayaks and canoes from public roadways, potentially criminalizing a common activity for hunters, anglers, and casual recreationists.

Cal [06:26]: "Now, North Carolina Senate Bill 220, Section 4. Specifically, if it were to pass, it would become illegal to launch a vessel. And this is primarily kayaks, canoes, small vessels off of the public road right of ways."

Scott explains that such legislation could severely restrict access to water bodies, impacting both recreational users and those who rely on waterways for livelihood.

4. California's Mountain Lion Hunting Ban

The hosts discuss California’s ban on mountain lion hunting, which has led to increased human-wildlife conflicts. Scott shares insights from biologist Bart George, who has observed that without regulated hunting, mountain lions do not develop a fear of humans, leading to more frequent encounters with livestock and pets.

Cal [10:31]: "It's a war on high schoolers and college kids. How else are they supposed to get in the water?"

5. Forest Service Budget Cuts and Restructuring

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the budgetary challenges faced by the Forest Service. Scott recounts the abrupt budget cuts that forced the resignation of staff members who were essential for trail maintenance, fire patrols, and general forest upkeep. These cuts were primarily funded through fee money from activities like camping and outfitting, not directly from taxpayer funds.

Scott Fitzwilliams [53:04]: "And most of those were paid with fee money. So it wasn't taxpayer money. It was the fees we collected. Maroon Bells and campgrounds and outfitting guides and stuff."

He highlights the inefficiency and lack of strategic planning in the budget cuts, which have left the agency understaffed and ill-equipped to handle essential functions.

Scott Fitzwilliams [57:07]: "I just told him this is not true and you know it's not true. So that was just hard. And that's when it really started to hit me."

6. Land Swaps and Affordable Housing Initiatives

Cal and Scott explore the controversial topic of land swaps aimed at addressing affordable housing by leasing or selling public land. Scott explains that while some projects have been initiated, such as in Dillon, Colorado, where leasing land to local governments in exchange for building affordable housing and new agency facilities, progress is slow and often met with local resistance.

Cal [87:45]: "And Ketchum, Idaho, there's a great project for housing for, for Forest Service."

Scott is cautiously optimistic but acknowledges the challenges in aligning legislation with on-the-ground realities.

Scott Fitzwilliams [85:59]: "I think we could get a gain in actual acreage and I think that's kind of been the trend because the place closer to the resort ... is going to be worth more."

7. Enforcement and Maintenance Concerns

The episode addresses the dire consequences of reduced staffing on forest maintenance and law enforcement. With fewer personnel, trail maintenance suffers, campgrounds fall into disrepair, and illegal activities like unauthorized trail building and ATV use become rampant. Scott warns of potential safety issues and environmental degradation if these issues are not addressed.

Scott Fitzwilliams [97:03]: "We have one. When we're fully staffed. We have three."

8. Concluding Insights and Call to Action

As the discussion winds down, Scott Fitzwilliams urges listeners to stay informed and engaged with public land management issues. He emphasizes the importance of public support and involvement in ensuring the sustainability and proper stewardship of national forests.

Scott Fitzwilliams [126:51]: "Public lands are not in the constitution. Nowhere in the constitution are they. And yet I believe it is one of the great experiments in democracy. No other country in the world says here's what we're going to do. We're going to take whatever 7% or whatever the percentage of our Country's land-based we're going to put it in public trust, managed for everyone, owned by everyone."

Key Takeaways

• Decentralized Management: The Forest Service's decentralized approach allows for localized decision-making but is currently under threat due to political pressures and budget cuts.

• Legislative Challenges: Bills like North Carolina Senate Bill 220 and California’s hunting bans highlight the ongoing legislative battles affecting public land access and wildlife management.

• Budget Cuts Impact: Abrupt and unplanned budget reductions are leading to significant staff layoffs, undermining essential forest maintenance and law enforcement.

• Land Swaps and Housing: Initiatives to use public land for affordable housing are complex, often facing local opposition and logistical hurdles.

• Enforcement Shortages: Reduced staffing compromises the Forest Service's ability to maintain trails, manage campgrounds, and enforce regulations, potentially leading to environmental and safety issues.

• Public Engagement: Scott Fitzwilliams calls for increased public involvement and awareness to protect and sustain public lands amidst political and budgetary challenges.

Notable Quotes

• Cal on Mountain Lion Hunting Ban:

  "It's a war on high schoolers and college kids. How else are they supposed to get in the water?"
  [06:26]

• Scott on Decentralized Management:

  "They purposely set it up where it was very decentralized. We want the decision-making where the communities are. We want the decision-making where it affects people."
  [25:59]

• Scott on Budget Cuts:

  "I just told him this is not true and you know it's not true. So that was just hard. And that's when it really started to hit me."
  [57:07]

• Scott on Public Lands Experiment:

  "Public lands are not in the constitution. Nowhere in the constitution are they. And yet I believe it is one of the great experiments in democracy."
  [126:51]

This episode provides a comprehensive look into the systemic issues plaguing national forest management, highlighting the need for strategic reforms and increased public advocacy to preserve these vital natural resources.