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- [00:00]
Steve Rinella
This is Steve Rella from the Meat Eater podcast. You get less calling and more killing when you use the number one name in broadheads. Now turkeys are built to survive. Ask anyone who bow hunts turkeys. They'll tell you they got dense feathers, they got a small vital area, they got a will to run. That is why bow hunters trust Swacker to deliver deep cut and hard hitting results on turkeys because every shot counts. From the Hank Parker 282 to the Levi Morgan signature series Swacker, Broadheads are designed for maximum devastation on gobblers, ensuring quick ethical kills. If you want pass through penetration and massive wound channels, trust the Broadheads. Built for the job, now part of the FL Outdoors family. Grab your turkey setup@floutdoors.com hey folks, Steve Rinella here. Spring it is coming on hard and first lights kicking off a sale you don't want to miss. Right now you can save big on the same field gear we trust, from base layers to outerwear and everything in between. Whether you like to spend time covering serious miles in the mountains or whether you like to perch up on a ridgeline and glass and glass and glass, or you like to post up in a tree, stand down in the thickets, well, now is the time to reload your kit without breaking the bank. But don't drag your feet. This sail will not stick around for long. Head to first light.com and gear up before it's gone. That's F I R S T l I t e.com what you're about to.
- [01:37]
Clay Newcomb
Hear is an episode of the Bear Grease podcast called Confessions of a Former Outlaw. I'm including it here on the Meat Eater podcast feed for a couple different reasons. Reason number one is because it is so damn good and interesting and also because the man you're going to be hearing from is like no one else on this planet. The second reason I'm including it here is because this episode was giving Clay a lot of consternation. It was giving him fits. He was scared of doing this show. He was scared of doing the show because he was afraid of people thinking that he was glorifying a poacher or an outlaw, when in fact you're going to hear a story about redemption. And two, Clay was nervous about putting a spotlight on this individual you're going to be hearing from. He sent me the episode, I listened to it and I told him, man, there is no way you can can this episode. Dude, you have to run with this show. And I believed in it so much I wanted them to put it right here so that as many people as possible could hear it. So check it out if you like what you're hearing. Make sure to subscribe to the Bear Grease podcast feed and enjoy.
- [03:03]
Johnny Johnston
I had it explained to me one time by a judge in court. Not hunting. Seemed like I'd killed a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, why'd you do this? I said, well, where I'm from, when your tomatoes get right, you pick them. When your potatoes get right, you dig them. When your turkeys are right, you go get you one. Yeah, but he said, that's not the way we do it. You have laws that govern when you can kill them and when you can't. But he explained that to me I.
- [03:40]
Narrator
Traveled a couple of hours south and slightly west from my home on Wednesday, March 26, 2025 to meet with a man who I was told might be the most interesting man in LaFleur County, Oklahoma. I hardly knew anything about him and oddly though, I talked to people for a living while I was in my truck and when I got within about two miles of his cabin, I started to get nervous. He was described to me as a kind man, loved by those who know him, but with a checkered past and an uncanny expertise in wild turkeys. Why he'd agreed to talk with me, I wasn't sure, and I began to doubt why I had agreed to come. This is real rural America, not the curated version that I sometimes like to talk about. This one has addiction, illegal hunting, and broken relationships, but I had no idea I'd be impacted so much. This is an unusual beargrease, dark at times, funny at others, but I was surprised at the arc of redemption. You'll have to forgive me because I'm still sorting out the details, but I'd like to share with you the confessions of this former outlaw. I really doubt that you're going to want to miss this one. My name is Clay Newcomb and this is the Bear Grease Podcast where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant. Search for insight in unlikely places and where we'll tell Tell the story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. Presented by FHF Gear American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore.
- [05:46]
Johnny Johnston
I had a friend and people that hunt know him. Ben Rogers Lee. Ben Lee, World champion caller hunter. Good friend Ben got killed in a vehicle accident. He was at my turkey camp. We hunted the first part of season and he tried to get me to quit and go with him to Alabama. He said, you like this game. You're good at it. I see it in you. I see potential in you. You need to quit what you're doing and go with me and I'll make you famous and me rich. I said, no, I can't quit what I got. I got a good job, good family, got cattle. I can't do that.
- [06:31]
Narrator
This is the voice of Johnny Johnston. You've probably never heard of him, but I doubt that you'll forget him. On the walk from the truck to the door of his cabin, I estimated there to be no less than 12 well taken care of. Hunting dogs scattered within sight. Beagles, running walkers and bird dogs. To Johnny, being called a hillbilly is a term of endearment and he identifies as one. And by his definition, the highest ranking qualification has nothing to do with hounds or overalls. But it's not being superficial. This story is about Johnny's life and we'll learn some foundational stuff that started on this hunt with Ben Lee.
- [07:13]
Johnny Johnston
So he left. I stayed, continued to hunt. The hunt was over, end of season. I was going to go out west and turkey hunt and I had a gun and some stuff at Octavia, friend of mine's house and I was supposed to been there to get my stuff and I never showed up. So he came looking for me and found me. I'd flew, flipped my jeep over, broke my neck, broke my back, cut my left ear off, crushed a foot, bunch of ribs. Critical condition. Well, they loaded me in the back of a Bronco and took me to the hospital and my wife was there, pretty upset. I don't remember any of these. There was some drinking involved. There is something to that, drinking and driving because since I've quit drinking 15 years, 319 days ago, I hadn't had a wreck.
- [08:13]
Narrator
When people know to the day how long they've been sober, the days prior to that were probably tough. Johnny is from the small town of Heavener, Oklahoma. He was born in 1949. He's 75 years old. He's been married to the same woman for 55 years. He's of average height. He has a wiry build with dark eyes that squint tight when he smiles. We're inside of a small white cabin with interior walls of rough sawn oak. Turkey beards hang in wads from deer antlers like clusters of grapes. Every single beard has a tag attached to it. There's no cell service here, but he doesn't own a cell phone or a computer. He never has let's get back to the hospital. This wreck sounds really bad.
- [09:04]
Johnny Johnston
But I was telling her they would fix me the best they could right then and they could later come back and fix my ear. And I said, oh, I forgot to tell you, my ears in the right front pocket of my camouflage.
- [09:19]
Narrator
You told them that?
- [09:20]
Johnny Johnston
I told the doctor that, yeah, on a gurney going into surgery. And he said, go look in his clothes and see if you can find an ear. And a nurse came running down the hall and said, I've got an ear. And so they took my ear and he said, we'll do the best we can. And I reared up again and said, hey, so I don't backwards where I can hear them turkeys walking behind me.
- [09:50]
Narrator
That story tips us off to two how central wild turkeys have been in his life and that he is a character. This whole story is about Johnny's life, some of it very personal. But I'm interested in his relationship with the law as it relates to wild turkeys. People's relationship to the law is helpful in understanding our society. Not the one we think we have, but the one we actually do have. Johnny is a rare find, willing to be vulnerable. When a stranger showed up me and asked about some of the darkest times of his life, I think we should start off with that credit to his ledger. In the last three years, no less than half a dozen people have emphatically told me that I needed to come here to Johnny's, including a game warden. But nobody could really articulate why. There's a lot I don't know about Johnny. So I'm gonna begin with a question about his friendship to a particularly famous turkey hunter. You may have heard of him.
- [10:54]
Interviewer
Tell me about your relationship with Ben Lee.
- [10:57]
Johnny Johnston
He was a super nice guy, big man walkingest hootingest, yappingest human I ever saw. He went from daylight til dark, charged them turkeys. He knew turkeys. He knew how to hunt. He had a call, company made calls. He was just a good, good fella. I liked him. He just had a way with people.
- [11:21]
Interviewer
Now, how did you meet him?
- [11:23]
Johnny Johnston
Through a friend of mine hunting down there. And I told him where they could find some turkeys and they went there and hunted. And he said, I want to meet this guy. Told us about this spot where the turkeys are. And that's how I met him. He invited me up there to talk and we just went hunting and killed a turkey and hit it all. He'd come down and camp with me every spring after that.
- [11:46]
Narrator
This story isn't about Ben Rogers Lee. But his connection to Johnny is beyond interesting. Ben was from Jackson, Alabama and has been referred to as the father of modern turkey hunting. He started his call company Ben Ben lee calls in 1970 and made a flurry of instructional tapes, videos, seminars and won five turkey calling world championships. He was a southern style storyteller and was one of the great communicators of American turkey hunting. Here's a clip of Ben Lee sitting.
- [12:20]
Johnny Johnston
Out there in them woods. She's laid a few eggs, you know. He gets up there in the morning at 4:00, you know, and old owl, well, he'll owl all wakes him up and he'll boy, he just half his lot. I mean he's just ready for everything to happen. Instructional tapes were a big then. Turkey hunting was just getting going. Mouth calls were just coming out. My old turkey hunting friends, one that I hunted with used a goat horn and a piece of slate. Now how excited could you get on a gold horn? They clucked a couple of times and three soft yelps and put it down. And that was completely reversed the way being legal on it. He never shut up. He walked calling. Turkey gobbled. He didn't dive in a brush pile. He'd start to that turkey calling and walking to him and he would get right on them and put some turkey stuff to them. He told me one time, he said, you like this game, but you gotta keep in mind if you hunt these turkeys like they need to be hunted, you won't have no friends, your family will be mad at you, you'll probably lose your job. He went on and on about all bad things that can happen to you. I said, well, it can't be that bad. He said, I'm talking about if you really hunt turkey. Now there's people that turkey hunt and there's people that really hunt them.
- [13:50]
Narrator
I get the feeling Johnny is one of those turkey hunters that really hunts them and that these hanging tagged beards aren't the only turkeys this man has killed. His friendship with Ben Lee is gonna lead us right into something critical.
- [14:07]
Interviewer
Did you know him personally very well? Like was he married? Did he have a family?
- [14:12]
Johnny Johnston
He had been married 13 times.
- [14:15]
Interviewer
Are you serious?
- [14:17]
Johnny Johnston
I'm serious or that's what he told me. I didn't know all his wives. I knew several of them. But he said if you really hunt them turkeys, right? That's when he said about the family and your job and all that.
- [14:30]
Interviewer
He was speaking from experience.
- [14:31]
Johnny Johnston
From experience, yeah.
- [14:33]
Interviewer
Was he, was he kind of an outlaw?
- [14:36]
Johnny Johnston
Sorta.
- [14:37]
Interviewer
Would you say he was?
- [14:38]
Johnny Johnston
I hate the category people, but, yeah, he's kind of like myself.
- [14:45]
Narrator
Interesting. He was kind of like myself, he said, an outlaw. I'd heard this about Johnny and Ben, but I didn't know for sure about Johnny. I kind of put him on the spot. And he was hesitant to categorize his old friend in this way. But Johnny kind of tells stuff the way it is. But again, the story isn't about Ben Lee, who passed away in a car accident in 1991 at the age of 46. This story is about Johnny Johnston. And as you may know, I have a lot of respect for people willing to be honest about their past. I've often found people like Johnny to be more honest than people with less visible issues lurking in their past. And I know that people like Johnny are usually cut from a different cloth. In this next question, I cut right to the chase, and you'll hear the nervousness in my voice.
- [15:44]
Interviewer
With you. Did you. Did you ever have any. Did the law ever mean anything to you?
- [15:54]
Johnny Johnston
No.
- [15:55]
Interviewer
Why wouldn't it? Because most people. It does.
- [15:58]
Johnny Johnston
The law itself or you mean the turkey law?
- [16:01]
Interviewer
Yeah. Yeah.
- [16:02]
Johnny Johnston
No. When turkeys gobbled, I hunted them.
- [16:05]
Interviewer
You just weren't afraid of getting in trouble?
- [16:08]
Johnny Johnston
No, never crossed my mind. I had it explained to me one time by a judge in court. Not hunting. Seemed like I'd killed a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, why'd you do this? I said, well, where I'm from, when your tomatoes get right, you pick them. When your potatoes get right, you dig them. When your turkeys are right, you go get you one. Yeah, but he said, that's not the way we do it. You have laws that govern when you can kill them and when you can. He explained that to me.
- [16:50]
Narrator
Americans are intrigued by people willing to break the law, Period. If you need convincing, just look at the top movies, podcasts and books we read. Heck, look at the top bear grease podcast. But I'm still trying to understand why. I think examinations of extremes help calibrate society in some tribal, primitive way. Almost like we get the signal for normal by bouncing off the outliers. But there's no debate about it. What's ironic is that we are a society of rule followers. If our civilization gets smashed by a comet and archeologists dig it up and start making conclusions about us, they'll find that this country was built on law and order. The vast majority of people who come to a stop sign in the middle of the night, even though they know that no one is watching, they're gonna stop. I mean, at least a rolling stop. And in many places of the world, they wouldn't at all, even when they know people are watching. Americans are rule followers despite the independent liberty aholic brash exterior. But the outliers are worth examination. And Johnny was an outlier when it came to wildlife law. We need to know more about his past.
- [18:12]
Steve Rinella
Hey, folks, Steve Rinella here. Spring it is coming on hard and first lights kicking off a sale you don't want to miss. Right now, you can save big on the same field gear we trust, from base layers to outerwear and everything in between. Whether you like to spend time covering serious miles in the mountains, or whether you like to perch up on a ridge line and glass and glass and glass, or you like to post up in a tree stand down in the thickets, well, now is the time to reload your kit without breaking the bank. But don't drag your feet. This sale will not stick around for long. Head to first light.com and gear up before it's gone. That's F I R S T L I T E dot com.
- [19:01]
Interviewer
Now, let me. This is kind of a personal question, but would your parents have raised you to just obey the law or. Oh, yeah, just like in general, like you would have known you can't steal or you can't.
- [19:14]
Johnny Johnston
No, my folks were by the book all the way.
- [19:16]
Interviewer
Well, how did you get from that to being willing to break the law?
- [19:21]
Johnny Johnston
I don't know. Just getting in the world and not really caring. Just doing pretty much what I wanted to do. Yeah.
- [19:30]
Interviewer
Now, did you ever really get in trouble? Did you ever get caught, like killing a legal turkey?
- [19:35]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah, I just didn't ever give it a whole lot of thought. When turkey's a goblin, I just went hunting.
- [19:43]
Narrator
Stories like this can make people feel uncomfortable, especially people that love wildlife and conservation and talk about it a lot. But this is part of the rural America that I grew up around. Turkey laws were often seen as mere suggestions. This next story is about the man who taught Johnny to turkey hunt. And the first time they got caught.
- [20:07]
Johnny Johnston
I can't talk about turkeys with talking about my old friend, the man that taught me how to turkey hunt, Superman. Yeah, we've been caught. He lived at Talahany, Oklahoma, and I can call his name. He's dead and gone now, and he's respected by every turkey hunter in that part of the world. Wayne Cox, turkey killingest man I've ever met, I've ever known, and I knew that he hunted a lot back when I started, I didn't even know him. I went, he was horseman, had a good racehorse, stood a racehorse stallion. And I was kind of a horseman back in the day and that's how I knew him. But I looked him up and got acquainted with him and I said, here's what I want. I want you to teach me how to turkey hunt. No hold bark. I want to know it all. Well, he said, next spring you'll just have to come over here, we'll go. I said, well, when? When? He said, oh, 1st of March is a good time.
- [21:10]
Narrator
If you're a turkey hunter, you'll know that 98% of American turkey seasons don't open in the first of March. This was an invite to get an illegal early start.
- [21:22]
Johnny Johnston
Okay, so first of March I went, stayed with him and we hunted. And he. What little I know about a turkey, that old gentleman taught me. He was slick as a snot on a doorknob. He used a wing bone or a piece of cane or a briarleaf or a peach leaf later on in the year, or a sleigh. Called very little, very light. You could be sitting next to him and barely hear him call. But he didn't call to a turkey unless he was 70 yard close. He used the terrain, the land to cover a darkness to get to him. He said, there's no such thing as worse working a turkey. People talk about working a turkey for two hours. He said, that should never happen. If they're right on that turkey, they'll have him killed in 10 minutes. One cluck, two clucks. That's enough. Put your call up. And he showed me some moves. Pretty slick. He had a good guy, but he didn't pay a lot of attention to season. When the turkeys gobbled, he went. We were one day in there behind his place and two turkeys. He gave me the easy one, he took the hard one. Butler and we met back. We had two turkeys. He said we was walking back to the jeep and one gobbled off in a big old rough canyon that endures. Give me that turkey. I'm going jeep. So I went off down there, nothing, couldn't do nothing with him. Wallowed him around a couple hours, come back, went to the jeep. Well, he said, we've been called. What do you mean we've been called? Well, he said, I've been called. Game warden was here when I got here. Got a ticket. You got two tickets. So that's the first time we had ever been in any problem. And we hunted all the time for Z.
- [23:34]
Interviewer
Well, did he tell the game warden that you were down there?
- [23:37]
Johnny Johnston
No, no, he was never told that. He said I hurried up and took the ticket. Cause I knew you was going to shoot any minute.
- [23:46]
Narrator
This is where the story starts to get complicated. It was back in the mid-70s and would be the start of about 30 years of illegal turkey hunting for Johnny.
- [23:58]
Johnny Johnston
My dad used to get on to me a lot for hunting. Too much really.
- [24:03]
Interviewer
So your dad.
- [24:04]
Johnny Johnston
Oh yeah.
- [24:04]
Interviewer
Knew that you were illegally hunting?
- [24:06]
Johnny Johnston
Oh yeah. He wouldn't do it.
- [24:08]
Interviewer
What would he say to you?
- [24:09]
Johnny Johnston
I'd call him and ask for a ride somewhere. Let me out and pick me up. At a certain time he knew what I was doing.
- [24:16]
Interviewer
What would he say? Do you remember anything specific? Like he was like, Johnny, this is bad. You're gonna get in trouble.
- [24:22]
Johnny Johnston
You know better now.
- [24:24]
Interviewer
But he still helped you?
- [24:25]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah, he would. He didn't like it, but he would.
- [24:28]
Interviewer
Yeah. Did you ever hide guns in the woods?
- [24:30]
Johnny Johnston
Oh man. Yeah. I had a couple of logs up here I'd put them in and I had a new shotgun I was really proud of. And I put in there in the wood. Rats. He'd stop rat chewed it all up.
- [24:46]
Interviewer
Just like in a couple days.
- [24:48]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah, I'd leave it. Yeah, they'd just eat on it and eat on it. So I'd get me a big PVC and pipe, put it in cap. And another time or two I got a chuckle control burns that caused you some fugalty. I had a gun back over here and I staying here in a camper. And I came in that day and took a nap. And when I got up, you couldn't see for the smoke. I thought, crap. I got a Browning shotgun and a log up there right in that far. So I get it on my four wheeler and I take off up there while I come around and there's just people everywhere. Bulldozers and fire lighters. And I was trying to get around and they was trying to stop me.
- [25:34]
Interviewer
Did it burn your gun up?
- [25:35]
Johnny Johnston
No, I got through them and got to it. Boy, it's pretty smoky. It was getting pretty close. And then another time a funny little deal I got a chuckle out of. Hit a turkey and a gun up here on the dead end road and went back up there to get it later. Everything good? Everything okay. And there was a bulldozer and a lowboy sitting there. No, not ten foot from that turkey in that gun. Well, I bet he run over that gun when he unloaded that. Dozer but he didn't. He missed it about that far. Yeah. And they were doing something and we snuck around, got the gun, turkey and got out of there.
- [26:21]
Narrator
This is some pretty serious outlawing. Illegal turkey hunters often hid guns in the woods where they knew turkeys were close, so they could drive to and from the spot without a gun in the truck, making it almost impossible for game wardens to pin them down. It might seem unusual for us to be talking about this so openly, but the reason he's so comfortable is that today Johnny doesn't have anything to hide. Because when he hit the bottom 15 years, 319 days ago, everything was laid bare. That story is coming. I'd rather someone tell it to me like it happened than try to sugarcoat it. I think we need to fill in the gaps in Johnny's history, though. I'm interested in his upbringing.
- [27:09]
Johnny Johnston
I was born in Heavener, Oklahoma. Just ordinary people. My dad worked for the railroad. All my family worked for the railroad. I grew up just a normal boy playing sports. And my dad quail hunted some. I just went crazy about it. I love it. That's what I do. That's my life. And I played sports and rodeoed. Was raised on a horse. Rode a horse to a ball practice and rode a horse everywhere I went, swimming and everything. And the hunting part of it, I just kind of figured it out on my own. I just. My dad deer hunted a little bit and he would take me and he gave me a 30 30. And I just started deer hunting and just talking to people and learning how to hunt and doing it and learning from my mistakes. That's a big thing. We can learn in our lives by our mistakes. I just like life. I was raised in church and I don't know where I went wrong, but I like the world better. I did things the hard way and I made a lot of bad choices. But I'm not that way anymore.
- [28:27]
Narrator
I'm not that way anymore. He said. That's actually what all the people that told me about Johnny said. That's really why I'm here. I want to learn more about Johnny's life.
- [28:41]
Johnny Johnston
One day my mom made me go to college. When I got out of school, I said, no, I don't want to go. But she said, yeah, you're going. I had a hard time getting along. I'd be late for class. Drinking was a big part of my life. And they suggested that I take a semester off and kind of find myself well in the process. I was going to college at Alfar. I fell in with a band of hill hippies. And I stayed on the Illinois River Bridge in a Frito van for a semester. And I got quite an education. And when I left there, I went to work on a railroad for the summer. And then I was going to go back to school and straighten up. And that never happened. I stayed with the railroad and retired there.
- [29:32]
Narrator
Johnny started working for the rail in 1970 and was a train engineer for decades. But the spring of 1975 was the first time that he ever turkey hunted. This is when it all started.
- [29:46]
Johnny Johnston
It was around 75. Started having a turkey hunting. And I didn't know anyone had ever turkey hunted. I didn't even know what a turkey call was. I knew two older men and my dad told me that they had killed turkeys, they had hunted them. So I went and talked to them and they showed me a few moves on a turkey call. And that April, we had a season. And I got a call off Mr. Phipps and went up on the hill. We had a cabin and I'd seen some turkeys there, deer hunting. And I went up on the hill and laid my gun up against a tree and whacked a box. And a turkey Gobble had shot me. And I looked and he was running right at me. And I dropped my call and shot the turkey and he run off. That was the first encounter I'd had with a wild turkey, and I was hooked right to him.
- [30:37]
Narrator
Did you get the turkey or did.
- [30:38]
Interviewer
He get away from him?
- [30:39]
Johnny Johnston
No, he got away. But I was walking around the way he went looking for him, and I heard another one Gobble. And I called to him and he came and I shot him and got him. So I'm a turkey killer now. And I've hunted them ever since. Just like they done something to my mama. I've had the opportunity. I hunt with doctors, lawyers, Indian chiefs. One of my favorite people, the chief of the Cherokee Nation, he's a good guy. My mom was part Indian. I'm a quarter. But I like Indians. I got a good spirit, a good feel for the woods, water and the wind. They like all that stuff. That may be part of why I'm drawn to it. I don't know. I like them. I respect turkeys. I got more respect for a turkey gobbler than a lot of people. I promise you, a statement like this.
- [31:40]
Narrator
Coming from a confessed lawbreaker could certainly ruffle your feathers. But I think what he's really saying is that turkey hunting meant so much to him that he was willing to risk it all to Hunt them. But the functionalization of that passion was awry. There are some things in life that seem to be built for temptation. Uniquely appealing but forbidden. And a goblin turkey before season has been the downfall of many a man. I've never known a woman to be a turkey outlaw. And if you've listened to me enough, you know that I pray that this story in no way glorifies breaking the law. And I don't think Johnny wants it to either. But like in most things that deal with human nature, they are nuanced, interesting if examined in detail, and insightful if you're willing to listen to people talk who have a different life experience than you. There are so many tidbits of interest in Johnny's story. It's like being confused on a covey rise by how many targets are in front of you. The thing that stands out most to me is Johnny's honesty about a dishonest past. He's not blaming anyone for his decisions, and he's not seeking attention or any kind of glory at all. I pried his arm to get him to talk to me, and I'm the one that came to him. And if something goes awry in the fact that this story was released, it's Clay Newcomb that's to blame, not Johnny. Johnny remembered a story from the 1980s that he thinks I need to hear.
- [33:20]
Johnny Johnston
I probably need to tell you that story, don't I? I had a cabin on Poto Mountain and it leaked metal roof. And I got up there with a hammer and every time I was beating that ridge cap down trying to get a nail in it to pull that ridge cap down. Every time I'd hit that metal, a turkey would gobble. This was a couple of weeks before season. I was gonna hunt there that season. But every time I'd hit that shed iron, blah, blah, blah, man. Well, it rained that night. Big rain, bad rain, man, there won't be nobody over here. So I just drove around there. I knew close to where he was from my cabin, but I could get up there without getting wet and walk down that road and I'd be right on him. And I yelled to him and he gobble right back. And when he come, there was three of them. Oh, boy, I don't need three. I believe I'm gonna get one. And it was a good deal. I did a lot of calling just seeing what I could get by with. Have them close enough to kill. I cut squawk and cackle and yell. Boy, they was putting a show on. So I shot one Got it. Went back to my truck. Just started to set it over in the back of the truck. And my game warden friend, Randy Fennell stood up behind my truck. He was in a brush pile right there behind my truck. Gotcha. I said, boy, you sure do. I could have lied. Could have run. So I said, you ain't had a bad day yourself. Did you hear all that? Randy said, oh, yeah, I heard it all. As good as it gets. It's just too early. I'm gonna have to ticket you, boy. Well, I don't blame you. You ain't had a bad day. Here's your gun, here's your truck. Here's your turkey. What else you need? Well, he said, I hate to see you taking that so hard. I'm job security for you. Did you hear all that gobbling this morning? I ain't going nowhere.
- [35:16]
Interviewer
I told him that.
- [35:17]
Johnny Johnston
Yes. I said, you can make a name for yourself right here. I ain't going nowhere. Well, I'm gonna take your gun. I said, well, you can catch me a couple more times before I get nervous. And I said, get in. It started raining again. He had. Soaking wet. He had sat in the rain, probably biggest part of the morning in the dark. Cause he didn't come in there. I'd have seen his truck. I said, get in. I'll take you to your truck. He said, after all this, you'll give me a ride? I said, well, yeah, I'm a good guy. If you knew me, you'd like me. I ain't a bad guy. You can make a name for yourself right here. I hope they promote you and move you to Oklahoma City, get you out of these woods. I hauled him right to his truck. We still talk now.
- [36:00]
Interviewer
Okay. When you describe how calm you were today, 40 years later, as you tell that story, you're, like, super calm.
- [36:10]
Narrator
And I think a lot of times.
- [36:12]
Interviewer
We kind of rewrite stuff in our head.
- [36:15]
Narrator
Were you that calm for real when that guy.
- [36:18]
Interviewer
You didn't care?
- [36:19]
Johnny Johnston
He'd tell you the same thing if we were here today. It's like, okay, so there's these rock climbers, these.
- [36:26]
Interviewer
These free climbers that climb these big granite faces out and out west.
- [36:32]
Narrator
And they talk about how those guys are superhuman when it comes to dealing with anxiety. And they. They're just able to climb on these.
- [36:41]
Interviewer
Rocks where me or you, a normal guy would be scared to death. Their brain doesn't equate the consequence of falling like a normal person. I still don't understand why you wouldn't be afraid. Cuz it's not like you're rich and could just pay tickets, no big deal. They're going to take your truck, they're going to take your gun just for.
- [37:01]
Narrator
What you had going on in your life.
- [37:02]
Interviewer
And at that time too, I guess you were, were you an alcoholic at that time?
- [37:06]
Narrator
So, I mean, there was a lot.
- [37:07]
Interviewer
Of, I guess, rough stuff going on.
- [37:09]
Johnny Johnston
Pretty much, yeah.
- [37:11]
Interviewer
So it's just like turkey hunting was not something you were worried about.
- [37:15]
Johnny Johnston
When I loaded him in the truck, I had a thought that nervous me just a little bit. Right between me and him, laying on the seat was a bag of dope and a deer horn pipe, and I very casually scooted a glove over it. Now, that unnerved me a little bit. But as far as killing a turkey a few days early, no, it didn't bother me at all. Yeah, getting caught didn't bother me. I don't know, maybe I just look at it different.
- [37:48]
Narrator
We're starting to see that his problems with the law were bigger than just turkeys. He could have left out that little detail, but he didn't. And I appreciate that. What's ironic is that today marijuana is legal in most places. But at the time, Johnny might have gone to jail for it. But I'd like to examine his statement about looking at wildlife laws different. That could sound like the typical excuse. But Johnny brings up an interesting point that, if not addressed, could assault the intellectual integrity of our discussion, which I am greatly enjoying. My point is nuanced and it has to do with how different generations view life, laws and ethics. By my observation, some people, emphasis on some raised in rural America that were adults by the 1960s, viewed game laws as mere suggestions. And it was even validated by the legal system of the time, as they simply ticketed people with relatively minimal consequences, making the crime feel not that much different than a speeding ticket. I'm not suggesting that it was ever right to break the law. The Bible says that men should obey the laws of men, and by doing so, they're ultimately obeying God. And that book was written long before 1960. But people raised later in the progression of American conservation were more likely to respect and obey wildlife laws. By the 1990s, average hunters were becoming indoctrinated with functional ideas about conservation. And it became much more mainstream to obey the law to the point that outlawing has fallen more and more out of style. At least this is what I have witnessed with my own eyes. But you'll have to listen to this and tell me what you think.
- [39:50]
Interviewer
Now, what about Today though, Joni, because what I've heard from people, and I feel like what I've heard from you is that you don't break the law anymore on purpose.
- [40:00]
Johnny Johnston
No.
- [40:00]
Interviewer
Why not?
- [40:04]
Johnny Johnston
I'm just a better person than I used to be. I used to just didn't care. I care now. I don't go before season now.
- [40:13]
Interviewer
What about now? Probably with more knowledge of conservation, if everybody killed 20 turkeys a year, that would for sure be bad.
- [40:22]
Johnny Johnston
It'd be wrong.
- [40:23]
Interviewer
What about from that angle? From just a conservation angle now, the.
- [40:28]
Johnny Johnston
Way our turkeys are down, they don't need to be over hunted like that.
- [40:33]
Interviewer
But. So part of your deal was back in the day with, we had so many, there were so few turkey hunters that you just couldn't figure out why it was wrong, right?
- [40:42]
Johnny Johnston
I just, I didn't see that much wrong in it. When I first started hunting over here, mid-70s, I'd come over here for two weeks and never see a turkey hunter hunt. This whole country, all of it, never even see a hunter, nobody hunting over here.
- [41:00]
Narrator
It was probably full of turkeys.
- [41:01]
Johnny Johnston
Anywhere you stop, it'll make no difference. Anywhere you stop, you, you're a turkey dog.
- [41:06]
Interviewer
And so you're sitting here saying the game and fish tells me I can kill two turkeys. I mean, you're gonna kill more than that, probably.
- [41:14]
Johnny Johnston
It's a different time.
- [41:17]
Narrator
It was a different time, he said. And I want to point out that he's literally describing a former time. Penalties were different, turkey populations were higher, turkey hunter numbers were way lower. And it was more common for his generation and their mentors to take wildlife laws less seriously. All this stuff makes me grateful for the generations of American game wardens that have been the interface of the law in our society as it gradually has shifted from the market hunting mentalities of the 1800s to the hyper informed conservation mind frame frames of the average modern hunter. We've still got problems today, but things are getting better. I'm still though, trying to figure out Johnny's motivation. I've got a question for him and I'm gonna bring up two familiar names from Bear Grease's past that we did on a series called Genuine Outlaws, which started on episode 52.
- [42:18]
Interviewer
We did this series on Louis Dell and Charlie Edwards. It was real clear that they enjoyed getting away from game wardens and that was a part of the fun that they had and it felt like, and kind of what the people around them. And I never interviewed Louis Dell and Charlie because they were, they had passed away by the time I did this. It was clear that they. That was part of the reason that they wanted to kill stuff illegally was just kind of the thrill of getting away with it.
- [42:47]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah.
- [42:47]
Interviewer
Was that, do you think that was a part of what you did?
- [42:50]
Johnny Johnston
Not really. I just liked it. I just liked hunting turkeys and the time to hunt them when they're goblin.
- [42:57]
Interviewer
It was just that simple?
- [42:58]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah, that simple. But no, not. Not just trying to get away with it. It just. I don't know, I just did it. I didn't bite them or hunt them in the summer and shoot them over water, sit around the water hole and try to kill them. I didn't do that. You hunt a turkey with a turkey call and a shotgun, you're not gonna hurt the population, just shoot gobblers. That's the way I looked at it. I'm not saying that's right. And if everybody did that, it would be bad. But as far as being scared, no.
- [43:35]
Interviewer
Back in those days, though, a ticket might have been just like $150. Just go pay your ticket. Is that right?
- [43:41]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah. I got caught one time. I got caught, I think about $270. And after Turkey season, I made a deal with the DA that I could pick up trash with the inmates from our prison here at Hodges to pay for the rest of it. And that's what I did.
- [44:00]
Interviewer
So you picked up trash?
- [44:01]
Johnny Johnston
I paid him a little cash and picked up trash with them inmates. Boy, they made me a lot of deals, but I couldn't take any of them either. I said, I'll be in here full time with y'all right now. I'll just got a couple of months here picking up trash. But that's worth killing a turkey. You can't put a price on killing a turkey, really.
- [44:20]
Interviewer
That's the way you would the way.
- [44:22]
Johnny Johnston
I looked at it. But as much as I've done it, I've been chased around by.
- [44:28]
Interviewer
You think they were after you?
- [44:29]
Johnny Johnston
Oh, yeah, yeah, I know.
- [44:31]
Interviewer
Do you think they ever worked you under cover?
- [44:34]
Johnny Johnston
I think what.
- [44:35]
Interviewer
What are you pointing at there?
- [44:37]
Johnny Johnston
Those bricks.
- [44:38]
Interviewer
Huh?
- [44:39]
Johnny Johnston
I had a couple of gentlemen show up here, wanted to do that.
- [44:42]
Narrator
Do this brick work.
- [44:43]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah. I said, well, yeah, it'd be a good idea needing one, but I don't have it. I said, well, we'll. We're going to build you one. I didn't think nothing about it. And they started calling my house. I didn't have a phone here. They started calling my house looking for me. And they showed back up and find me in town and I found that strange. They got nearly through and said, you don't know what to think about us, do you? I said, well, no, not really, but I think you probably work for the wildlife department, maybe undercover, trying to catch me. They'd ask me all kinds of turkey stuff and deer stuff. How many were they?
- [45:24]
Interviewer
Hunters?
- [45:25]
Johnny Johnston
Claimed to be. I don't know. I wasn't going to go hunting with. But they just keep coming back, coming back, coming back. And I finally he said, you don't know what to think about us, do you? I said, well, I think you're undercover, probably trying to catch me in some kind of violation or something. And they loaded their stuff up and left, and I hadn't seen them since.
- [45:45]
Interviewer
You're pretty certain they were undercover guys?
- [45:47]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah. Sometimes if you listen, you can hear stuff. If you got your ears open and your eyes open, you might get a tip from somebody. That and I was kind of on the look.
- [46:00]
Interviewer
You were just suspicious of these guys?
- [46:02]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah.
- [46:02]
Interviewer
Yeah. So did you get a tip from somebody else?
- [46:05]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah.
- [46:07]
Interviewer
How does that make you feel? I mean, at the time, did that. That didn't scare you?
- [46:12]
Johnny Johnston
No, it made me feel good that that man thought enough of me to save me a problem. Oh, well, no, I wasn't a bit afraid of them. No. Game wardens are just people. I'm not afraid of them. People see them coming. A lot of times I've been hunting with people. A game warden drive up and they just go all to pieces. I think we ain't done nothing wrong, man. Ain't gonna bother us.
- [46:36]
Narrator
Johnny's transparency today is notable. We're going to learn the nitty gritty of why he changed. But first, here's a lighter story about an interaction with a game warden that happened during a legal hunting season. And then after this, we're gonna get real serious.
- [46:58]
Johnny Johnston
There was an old gentleman we know was calling to a turkey. So we just laid in a ditch. We didn't want to mess him up. We just lay in there. Listen, he'd whack a turkey. Gobble. It wasn't coming. We'd played with him quite a bit. He was not a player. He'd gobble, though. He was fun. And I said, look, coming up a road there. And here come the game warden sneaking up a road. And we're laying there, full camouflage, right in the ditch. And he got right even with me, and I said, get somewhere and sit down. These are wild turkeys we're hunting here. We can't kill them. When you walking up and down the road here what's the matter to you? And it addled him. Kind of blowed him up or something. He went for his gun. But his lights. Boy, you don't need no gun. Now, we're just. There's another man called this turkey sit down here with. If you're gonna hunt with us, you need to get here early and wear some camouflage. You ain't got a shotgun, I'll lose you one.
- [47:56]
Interviewer
Now, is this before season?
- [47:57]
Johnny Johnston
No, this was during season.
- [47:59]
Interviewer
This is during legal season.
- [48:01]
Johnny Johnston
Yeah, but. Yeah, we've had some wardens here.
- [48:08]
Narrator
Johnny has painted a clear picture of his days of outlawing. But the one thing that those half a dozen people did tell me, one by one, before I met Johnny, is that he is different today. He's changed, they said. Even the game warden suggested this. Throughout this story, you've heard that Johnny used to be an alcoholic. And from one story, we learned that he used some drugs. I wanted to know how that started and why he changed. So I asked him.
- [48:43]
Johnny Johnston
Well, I just made some bad choices, hanging out with the wrong people. And I'd been around wildcat whiskey and homebrew, and I just didn't handle it very well. And then I got over here. After I got my cabin. There was a preacher that coon hunted a lot. He would stop by to see me, and I was usually too drunk to talk to him, but I know he was here. I was raised in church, trained up in church like the book says, but I just let the world get the best of me. But when that preacher started coming here, it kind of got me to thinking and I. I woke up one morning up the creek here with. I'd been on a pretty bad drone. And when I woke up that particular morning, I didn't know where I was, how I got there, didn't know any of them people, didn't know where my truck was. I finally found someone I knew and got them to take me to my truck. In fact, I'd been gone about six months. I come over here, deer hunting. It was after turkey season, and I still hadn't been on. So I'd lost about everything. My wife, my family, my friends, my place, cattle, tractors. But I didn't care. I woke up one morning up here and I thought, you're in a bad way and the only hope for you is Jesus. And by that preacher coming here, I think that kind of rekindled the spirit that had been instilled in me as a kid. And I decided I needed to get right with the Lord and get my life right and try to get my family back. And so I stopped on top of Horseshoe Mountain one morning, just getting daylight. And I asked the Lord to help me. I'm in a bind. Save me, Take this addiction from me. Give me my life back. And I drove on to the cabin and I went out here by this fire pit. And the sun was coming up then. And I saw a transformation in the east, which that sun shining through the clouds like I had never seen before had to be a sign from God. A glimpse of heaven, maybe. Orange, purple, blue clouds, rays of light shining through them. Pretty amazing. And my life was changed right there at that fire pit. Believe it or not, it was easier than you think when you get Jesus involved in it. He took. When I gave my life to him, he took that addiction from me. Been 15 years, 319 days. And I'll serve him, I believe. And he took that from me. I'd been locked up, dried out in jail for public, drunk, all kinds of stuff. But when I got Jesus in my life, through the Holy Spirit, he took that addiction from me. I quit smoking, I quit drinking, I quit everything right there at that fire pit. It took a few months, but I had some time. I waited. I got my life back. I got my wife back, my family back. Lord's blessed me with a good cabin, a new house. And I went from being an alcoholic with a drug addiction to a deacon and an ordained minister. And some people get saved at an early age. I got a preacher friend told me he was saved when he was nine years old. Never broke any loans as it was. What you get saved from. Yeah, I've done it all. What I hadn't done, I just had never thought of or didn't want to try. I've done it all, and it ain't no secret. But I'm not that way anymore. Jesus has given me a whole new life, a whole new heart, and a whole new mindset. I've got my wife, but my father, family back about everybody. Equipment. Yeah, Jesus fixed all that better than it's ever been.
- [53:34]
Interviewer
That's incredible.
- [53:35]
Johnny Johnston
I still like to hunt. He goes with me. He likes mountains.
- [53:43]
Narrator
It's clear that Johnny has been through the wringer. But it sounds like he's got things figured out now. There's more to people than the work days of their past. And there's more for you than the worst days of your past. The confessions of this former outlaw is really a story of redemption. Thank you, Joni, for sharing the nitty gritty of your story. I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease and Brent's this Country Life podcast. Please share this podcast with someone that you know that might be struggling or somebody that just enjoys a genuine story. Thank you all so much. Keep the wild places wild because that's where the bears live.
- [54:40]
Johnny Johnston
A lot of train whistled sitting right under that wheel whistle. I've lost quite a bit of my hearing. Yeah I used to get ear good and course good but now I have to have someone go with me because my son in law said if you hear a turkey Johnny, don't go to it. Sit down and start calling. You're already too close.
- [55:00]
Interviewer
If you can hear it, you're already.
- [55:02]
Johnny Johnston
If you can hear it gobble, you're already too close.
- [55:04]
Interviewer
That's funny.
- [55:05]
Johnny Johnston
It is.
- [55:18]
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