Summary of The MeatEater Podcast – Ep. 699: The American West with Dan Flores

Introduction

In Episode 699 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella welcomes esteemed historian and New York Times bestselling author Dan Flores to delve deep into the intricate history of the American West. Building upon Rinella's passion for the outdoors, the discussion intertwines themes of hunting, environmental history, conservation, and the profound relationship between humans and nature.

Pigeon Catching Controversy in New York

The episode kicks off with a surprising discussion about the pigeon catching controversy in Brooklyn. Corey Jacobsen highlights the economic aspect of pigeon catching, explaining how pigeons are sold to dog trainers for a price increase from $7 to $8 per pigeon, equating to a 12.5% rise ([06:16]).

Dan Flores adds context, mentioning the historical presence of pigeons introduced by the French in the late 1500s and their establishment in urban environments: “Pigeons being a non-native bird. But pigeons have been there... since around the late 1500s” ([08:02]).

The conversation underscores the ethical and ecological implications of such practices, emphasizing the disturbance caused to local pigeon enthusiasts and the broader environmental impact.

Hunting Desert Bighorn Sheep vs. Audad

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the controversial hunt of Desert Bighorn Sheep and the impact of Audad (Barbary sheep) in Texas. Randall discusses how the increasing popularity of Audad hunting poses a threat to native bighorn sheep populations: “As this gains popularity, land managers, landowners will become incentivized to host Audad on their properties. And he feels that this could lead to a net loss in suitable bighorn habitat” ([16:35]).

Dan Flores elaborates on the difficulty of managing Audad populations without the presence of their natural predators, highlighting the ecological imbalance: “The primary problem... is we don't have big hunting hyenas and American cheetahs and all these cats, particularly, that preyed on horse foals” ([41:12]).

Conservation Efforts and Research at UTEP's Indio Research Station

Randall and Jordan Siller recount their hunting expedition hosted by Dr. Phil Lavretsky at UTEP's Indio Research Station in West Texas. They emphasize the conservation efforts aimed at controlling Audad populations to benefit Desert Bighorn Sheep: “They hunt two days and we did our best to help the conservation aspect and tried just shooting to use was our main objective” ([19:11]).

The team discusses the genetic research being conducted to understand the different strains of Audad introduced to Texas and the potential for hybridization: “They were surveying strains to see... they were trying to figure out if they could be hybrid strains” ([37:02]).

Rewriting Western History: The Role of Animals

Dan Flores shifts the conversation to his approach in redefining Western history by incorporating environmental elements and the roles of animals. He argues that understanding the long-term relationships between humans and wildlife provides a more comprehensive view of history: “Taking the animals seriously has probably been a step towards just revising the whole story of the West” ([80:35]).

Flores highlights the transformative impact of species like beavers on North American ecology, asserting that their removal led to significant environmental changes: “Beaver ecology totally transformed the continent. They made it a much more humid and wetter place” ([81:20]).

Personal Insights and the Evolution of Human-Nature Relationships

Throughout the episode, Dan Flores shares personal anecdotes that shaped his interest in environmental history. From his family's deep roots in Louisiana to his childhood fascination with the Western landscapes, Flores illustrates how personal history intertwines with broader historical narratives: “I grew up hunting... but I was also fascinated with the West because of my family's stories” ([63:02]).

He discusses the importance of understanding ancient human cultures and their interactions with the environment, emphasizing that history is not merely a sequence of events but a tapestry woven from diverse human experiences: “When you start using archaeology and paleontology, the past starts getting deeper and deeper” ([77:00]).

Lewis and Clark's Lesser-Known Expedition

A particularly intriguing segment explores the often-overlooked Freeman and Custis Expedition of 1806, Jefferson's second attempt to explore the West via the Red River. Dan Flores provides a detailed account of how mischarted rivers led to the expedition's premature end due to encounters with Spanish forces: “Jefferson set about preparing an expedition to go into the southern parts of the Louisiana Purchase... and they had to turn back” ([45:08]).

Flores explains the geopolitical tensions of the era and how this expedition was intentionally sidelined in historical memory to celebrate only the successful Lewis and Clark journey: “That's why you've never heard of it... Jefferson was willing to just sort of sweep it under the rug” ([55:43]).

Human History and the American West

In the latter part of the episode, Dan Flores delves into the deep history of human habitation in North America, challenging the simplistic narratives often portrayed in mainstream history. He emphasizes that the American West has been shaped by human activity for over 23,000 years, contrasting this with the recent European exploration: “The story of America is that right now we think at least 23,000 years old” ([62:05]).

Flores argues for a more nuanced understanding of Native American contributions and their sophisticated relationships with the environment, advocating for a history that recognizes the complexity and longevity of indigenous cultures: “The orthodoxy has been trying to run their own stories about their own cultures away” ([105:30]).

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Steven Rinella highlighting upcoming episodes of Dan Flores' podcast, "The American West with Dan Flores," which promises to delve further into the untold stories and deep history of the Western United States. Rinella encapsulates the essence of the discussion by emphasizing the importance of reshaping historical narratives to include environmental and indigenous perspectives.

Dan Flores leaves listeners with a compelling invitation to rethink their understanding of the American West, encouraging a deeper appreciation of its rich and multifaceted history.

Notable Quotes

• Steve Rinella: “Audad DNA doc also turkey DNA doc” ([06:07])
• Randall: “No, they're not east of here” ([03:19])
• Dan Flores: “Taking the animals seriously has probably been a step towards just revising the whole story of the West” ([81:20])
• Dan Flores: “The story of America is that right now we think at least 23,000 years old” ([62:05])

Looking Ahead

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to Dan Flores' new podcast, "The American West with Dan Flores," available on all major podcast platforms. The series promises to offer a fresh perspective on Western history, exploring themes from ancient human cultures to modern conservation efforts.

This summary provides an in-depth overview of Episode 699, capturing the essence of the discussions between Steven Rinella and Dan Flores. By weaving together historical insights with contemporary conservation issues, the episode invites listeners to engage with the American West's rich and often overlooked legacy.