Ep. 702: How To Argue About Hunting and Fishing Like A Lawyer with Jefferson Fisher

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast - Episode 702: How To Argue About Hunting and Fishing Like A Lawyer with Jefferson Fisher

Introduction and Guest Background

In Episode 702 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella welcomes Jefferson Fisher, a seasoned trial attorney from Texas and the author of his debut book, "The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More." Jefferson brings a unique perspective by blending his legal expertise with his passion for hunting and fishing, offering listeners invaluable insights into effective communication within the outdoor community.

Jefferson Fisher's Path to The MeatEater Podcast

Jefferson shares his journey from practicing law to becoming a social media influencer and author. Originally a trial attorney, Jefferson left a prominent defense firm to start his own practice. Recognizing the power of social media, he began creating video content to help people improve their argumentative skills, which quickly went viral, amassing over 12 million followers across various platforms.

Notable Quote:

[07:07] Jefferson Fisher: "I started making videos and I thought, I need to have the perfect lights, the perfect camera. So I just made it where I'm at."

The Next Conversation: Overview of the Book

Jefferson's book, "The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More," distills the principles he's shared in his viral videos into a comprehensive framework. The book emphasizes three core rules:

1. Say It with Control: Regulate your own emotions to maintain composure during discussions.
2. Say It with Confidence: Adopt an assertive communication style, avoiding over-apologizing or hesitancy.
3. Say It to Connect: Approach difficult conversations with the intent to build understanding and connection.

Notable Quote:

[20:23] Jefferson Fisher: "I teach you how to communicate in the trickiest hunting and fishing scenarios that people encounter."

Insights on Communication and Argumentation

Jefferson elaborates on how traditional legal training often overlooks interpersonal communication skills. Unlike law school, which focuses on legal statutes and courtroom procedures, Jefferson's approach centers on reading people and managing conflicts effectively. He highlights the importance of self-awareness and emotional regulation in fostering productive conversations.

Notable Quote:

[21:25] Corinne: "Are those rules things that all trial lawyers learn or is this stuff you learned along the way?"

[21:32] Jefferson Fisher: "Law school doesn't teach you squat about reading people... Everything you do, you're being watched."

Scenario Discussions: Practical Applications

Throughout the episode, Jefferson addresses various scenarios submitted by listeners, offering practical advice on navigating challenging conversations in both personal and professional contexts.

1. Asking for Hunting Permissions:

   • Jefferson advises using a structured approach by clearly stating the purpose of the conversation, the desired outcome, and ensuring mutual understanding.
   • Notable Quote:

     [50:36] Jefferson Fisher: "I'm going to talk with you about your beautiful ranch and ideally, I love to walk away with a relationship where I work on this property for you in exchange for permission to hunt here."

2. Handling Criticism from Friends or Partners:

   • Instead of the traditional "compliment sandwich," Jefferson recommends leading with the issue at hand to avoid diluting the message.
   • Notable Quote:

     [99:19] Jefferson Fisher: "Instead of 'I love you but...', you start with the no, I can't make it. Thank you so much for thinking of me and inviting me."

3. Navigating Competitive Situations at Trailheads:

   • Jefferson emphasizes the importance of open communication and collaboration to prevent territorial disputes.
   • Notable Quote:

     [62:05] Jefferson Fisher: "If you approach the person and say we're both here for a good hunt, let's make a plan where we're going."

Notable Quotes with Speaker Attribution and Timestamps

• Jefferson Fisher:

  [07:07] "I started making videos and I thought, I need to have the perfect lights, the perfect camera. So I just made it where I'm at."

  [20:23] "I teach you how to communicate in the trickiest hunting and fishing scenarios that people encounter."

  [50:36] "I'm going to talk with you about your beautiful ranch and ideally, I love to walk away with a relationship where I work on this property for you in exchange for permission to hunt here."

  [99:19] "Instead of 'I love you but...', you start with the no, I can't make it. Thank you so much for thinking of me and inviting me."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Episode 702 of The MeatEater Podcast offers a compelling blend of legal acumen and outdoor expertise through Jefferson Fisher's insights. By applying structured communication strategies akin to legal argumentation, listeners can enhance their interactions within the hunting and fishing communities. Jefferson's practical advice, grounded in his book "The Next Conversation," serves as a valuable resource for anyone looking to navigate difficult conversations with confidence and empathy.

Listeners who wish to delve deeper into Jefferson’s methodologies are encouraged to explore his book, which has garnered impressive ratings on platforms like Goodreads, reflecting its impact and usefulness.

Final Quote:

[123:26] Jefferson Fisher: "I'm going to buy a rifle and that sounds a lot more definite... doesn't have to be."

Stay Connected

For more insights and detailed discussions on outdoor topics, subscribe to The MeatEater Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your preferred podcast platform.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions and insights shared during the episode.

Transcript

[Steve Rinella]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast. I've been running FHF Binyo harnesses for over a decade, and for the last couple years, it has been the FOB because it's quiet, it's tough, and it just plain works. And it's easy to work. I've worn it in damn near every environment you can think of. Desert, mountains, snow, heat. And it has never let me down. Now they made it even better. They got new colors, more modularity, and like everything FHF makes, it's built right here in the usa. This is gear you can count on season after season. Pick up yours [e-mail] hey guys, it's the dog days of [e-mail]. come back here, cat. We're having a lot of extra podcast drops, articles all about dogs, hunting with dogs, nothing about cats. Tune in now. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything.

[Steve Rinella]

The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light.com f I r s t l I t e.com joined today by Jefferson Fisher. I'm excited you're here, man. You know who's mostly excited to hear is Corinne. Listen to this. Did you know. Do you know this story? I kind of just told him, but she knew. I was like, hey, I want to get this dude Jefferson Fisher on. And so it's in her mind and in her notes. Meanwhile, she's listening to a podcast, what's it called?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Diary of a CEO.

[Steve Rinella]

Diary of a CEO. And you're on it. But she doesn't make the connection. She likes it so much she listens to it twice and shares it with people. And then one day she's like, oh, wow, that's the dude we're having on.

[Corinne]

I thought there were two Jefferson Fishers.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, there's a lot of us. Tons of us.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, yeah, we're always like, kicking around so many names, it's hard to. Yeah, we got like, oh, what about, you know, maybe this guy would be cool, Whatever. So she's like, sort of in her head. Is this thing I asked about when your book comes out?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

And then at the same time, she's listening to you. And then one day has a like, oh, that's the guy. That's the dude.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, thank You, Corinne? Yeah, you bet. Yeah. I'm honored to be here. This is the one. Like, I was super nerding out about that. I got to be on this podcast.

[Steve Rinella]

Jefferson Fisher is a, by training, a trial attorney from Texas, but he just published his first book called the Next Conversation. Argue less, talk more. He's a hunter. I got turned on to him. We have. We're with the same literary agency, right? Europa.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

You know where I've been with Mark at Europa, as I was just telling you earlier, for over 20 years.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Mark is fantastic.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And he's the one that kind of, like, found me and moved me from magazine writing into books.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So he was the one.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay. So Tess, who is kind of his protege who works under him, is the one who found me. And she emailed me, Just a cold email. And I'd had several others, but this, for whatever reason, I read hers, and the subject line was literally, hello from a literary agent. Like, that was her subject line.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a pickup line.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And so I had seen a few, and I looked it up, and I saw, of course, you go to see who they represent. And I saw your name, and I was like, no way. And because your name was on it, I said, yes, I'll go with y' all, because, I mean, I read your book.

[Steve Rinella]

Like a commission. Little chunk change.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah. You need to talk to Mark about it. Honestly. Yeah. Because I. Pretty much anything was Meat Eater. I was buying. I think I bought every book. I've watched every episode. Yeah. I got the Benchmade Meat Eater knife. I was like, yeah, man. And so it was a huge influence of, like, when I talked to Tess, and I was, did y' all really represent Ronella? And she's like, oh, yeah, he's. He's great. And then talked about Danielle, who I fought. I followed her before all of her cooking stuff. And. Yeah. And so to be here is just super full circle for me, man.

[Steve Rinella]

That's awesome.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I got turned on to Jefferson by watching his. That this fellow we talked about shared his video series with me. Where you sit in your car. Well, tell them what you do. Tell them about your video.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I.

[Steve Rinella]

This is good, because this let me. Everyone listening.

[Jefferson Fisher]

This.

[Steve Rinella]

This is highly. We're going to demonstrate. This is highly relevant to your life, how to communicate. Okay. But also, we're going to learn today how to communicate in the trickiest hunting and fishing scenarios that people encounter. So how to navigate the awkward parts. But also, you can use this. You don't call them tricks, do you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, never.

[Steve Rinella]

Because you're not like playing mind games.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No. I mean, I guess you could say they are. I mean, you'll be able to use.

[Steve Rinella]

These tricks on your wife too.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. If you. And just don't share this episode with her. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah, don't. Yeah, that's a good point, man.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

If you're listening with your wife in a car right now, change it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

Because later when you start influencing her heavy duty, she's gonna know that she's going to be like, you're doing that from the podcast.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

It's interesting because if you're, if you're writing on this subject, you don't want your reach to expand so far that your readers are using it on themselves, and then all of a sudden it becomes obsolete.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I get a lot of comments of people saying, I'm using this on my husband or my wife and I don't tell them. And so I'll have people that will say, or a couple. I'll have like a mom or a dad say, I'm using this on my wife. And they asked me the other day, like, are you. Is that from that attorney guy? Like they almost pointed out because they saw the same thing. Exactly. They're like, I saw that video too. Like, I know what you're, I know what you're trying to do.

[Randall]

All I can think about is the. These aren't the droids you're looking for.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Is there a hand moat gesture involved? Subtle one.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'd be honored if it was still very much the Jedi one that you're using. Just right in motion. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So, yeah, the videos you made.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I make videos. I started making videos in my car. So full time practicing trial attorney. And I left a big defense firm that was at and then started my own. And I thought, well, I need to be on social media. And so I started making videos and I thought, I need to have the perfect lights, the perfect camera. And so I thought, well, I'll just, I got my truck, I got my car, kids car seat in the back. I'll just make it where I'm at. And I thought, well, what do I need to do? I just tell them what I feel like I know. That's how to help people argue and communicate. And so I got my phone, said how to Argue Like a Lawyer part one. And then by like the fourth video, it had gone viral and then it.

[Steve Rinella]

Blew up that quick.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, real quick.

[Steve Rinella]

You hit 5 million followers.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I think we're today I think we'll hit 6 million today on Instagram, and we have about 12 million total across the platform.

[Randall]

And you obviously start each video.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Say what?

[Steve Rinella]

The whole world's gonna be good at arguing now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Everybody's gonna be great. So. Yeah. So I've been doing it for a little over two.

[Randall]

You start each video with something catchy like, have you recently been exposed to. Have you recently been hit by.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's exactly right. Okay, good.

[Randall]

Yeah, I'm tracking.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Mesothelioma, asbestos, all that. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Call this.

[Randall]

You may be entitled to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Steve Rinella]

But your video series wasn't meant to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, the objective wasn't to drum up lawyer business.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, it never was. And so I found that when I was talking about the law, like, the first few videos I made just to kind of see how Instagram word. Because it used to not. They didn't always have video. I mean, video was only to compete with TikTok. And I didn't really like it. I just. I felt like it was trying to sell. Sell stuff to everybody. So when I started my how to argue like a lawyer, it would be like how to have a difficult conversation. Number one, do this. Two, do this. Three, to do this. And then that was it. And then those just started to really. People became where they would say I. I binge them. Where they would just go video after video after video. And I never saw any of this. I just considered this kind of a hobby. And I would do it for about 30 minutes after work, between work and home, and that's how it happened.

[Steve Rinella]

This has nothing to do with anything. But you know what I'm binging right now because my wife turned me on to it last night is this dude that. This dude that sings, he does like, a male and female role of singing the most, like, graphic, awkward, Tinder exchanges.

[Corinne]

I know exactly who you're talking about.

[Steve Rinella]

You're going to have to share that with me. It's so. It's so graphic that I'm not gonna name who he is because I don't want to be complicit.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, you're have to share that with me. It's so funny. I love how some of these, like.

[Steve Rinella]

Very, very unusual, distinct requests.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, there's no doubt. There's no doubt. And what I love so much about this, it's just not the videos that are great now. It's. The comments are hilarious. Like, you'll go to content just to read the comments. You know, people are hilarious. That's my favorite part about it. But that's how I got started in all of this was just the videos in the car.

[Steve Rinella]

What was your first exposure to hunting?

[Jefferson Fisher]

As a kid, my dad would take me probably six or seven, go duck hunting. Put me on his shoulders while he was wading. So we.

[Steve Rinella]

Down in Texas.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Down in Texas. So we have a few different properties. And this one is. Touches both the Angelina and the Neches river right there below Lake Sam Rayburn.

[Steve Rinella]

Is that how you say it from. If you're from there. Natures.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Natures, yeah. Natures.

[Randall]

Yeah. In Montana, we say Natchez.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Well, it's N E C H E S Naches.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I only care about what people. For me, the final word is what is the dude that lives there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's natures. Yeah. You got the Sabine, Angelina. Natures. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And so there's. It's just a marsh out there. And so we would. He would take me and we'd shoot, or he would shoot wood ducks and then.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, really?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And then I would get taken to go goose hunting. We go goose hunt every year. I mean, almost every year of my life, we've gone goose hunting down in Eagle Lake, which is not too far from Katy. Houston, west of Houston. Big rice fields. And I was kind of the. The substitute dog. You know, I was the.

[Steve Rinella]

Go find that one.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And there was nothing more exciting. I mean, I would just take off to go find it and so come back with. With the geese. And then I think starting about eight was the first time I actually started deer hunting with a rifle.

[Steve Rinella]

And so early.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, way, way early. And then I. I can. I switched to bow hunting probably when I was about 14, 15. Switch.

[Steve Rinella]

Switched.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Hung up the gun.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, I mean. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's the difference.

[Steve Rinella]

That's my first question. Avid bow hunters. No, not the hack on them. Like, people that only hunt with a bow.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

My first question is. Yeah, like a felony.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got something, you got something. You got something.

[Corinne]

You just run down all the questions on the 4473.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Corinne]

Have you ever renounced United States citizenship?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. No, no, not. I did not hang it up for good. No, I just. That was the first time I really took up the bow and had a whole lot of fun with it when I was probably about 14, 15, right before I started driving.

[Steve Rinella]

So that's where you're at now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, you bow. Your avid bow hunter now?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, bow hunter for sure. But also, a gun gets the job done. So I'm not one of those. That's. My grandfather is very much only Beau. He got to where. Because he couldn't pull it back because he had shoulder surgery. He did it with his teeth.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, you're kidding me. Why don't you guys buy him a crossbow?

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's what we did.

[Steve Rinella]

We did.

[Jefferson Fisher]

We got him a crossbow eventually because he was losing too many teeth. So he started to lose too many teeth. And so we're. Like. I said, papa John, we gotta do something. So now he's. Now he's got a crossbow that he steps on and pulls it back. And so he's one of these. He'll hunt until he can't hunt anymore. We actually just had a goose hunt up in Lubbock, and that was the first time that he didn't get a. He just couldn't get his gun up. Yeah. And that was like, really. That was a really hard. Yeah, that was like, really, really hard on him to realize he couldn't get it up fast enough. So. But, yeah, hunting's been part of my home.

[Randall]

Sounds like he's a good hunter, though, because we recently hunted with a bunch of guys all in a big field set up this winter. And there are two older guys out there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

And they were having a hard time being on time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Randall]

But eventually they were like, well, screw the rest of you. And you'd look down the line. Everybody's all covered up. And you'd look down the line and they just be up like this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They'd already be set.

[Randall]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's awesome. Yeah. So he. He was definitely the one that, in our family that kept. Set the tone for the hunting. And, yeah, he's done. I mean, every hunt in Africa, he's done moose up in Alaska, he's done bear, he's done. I mean, he's caribou, you name it. That's like his. That's his thing.

[Steve Rinella]

I like that you began your book. It's bold. You begin your book with a hunting story.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. I was curious how that was going to be taken.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, yeah, because you could do it and a lot of guys would be like. They'd be like, well, I don't want to do that because it might turn people off.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, whatever. But, yeah, so I always like to applaud people who are just like, hang it out there. I had a guy. I still don't want to say. Well, I guess I could say his name now. I had a guy one time call me. He was married to a very famous singer.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay. What genre did he make videos on about Tinder Exchange.

[Steve Rinella]

He called. He's trying to get hold me one time. Like passes a message. He wants talk. It's just like to tell me. And he tells me flat out he's a closeted hunter. And he says he has a game room that you wouldn't know was in his house unless he took you to it. Because he can't let anybody know because the business he's in and the business his wife's in.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Isn't that wild?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean I can understand it, but yeah, that's. I mean I can relate to that too a little bit.

[Steve Rinella]

But I don't want to betray his trust.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I understand that.

[Steve Rinella]

We had one phone call. He's like, he had to tell somebody.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I need to tell somebody.

[Steve Rinella]

I was like, I kept thinking there was going to be like a thing in the end, like invitation.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There's no.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you want to be a pop singer? I don't know.

[Jefferson Fisher]

We got to put out a hotline confessions to Steve so people feel better.

[Steve Rinella]

I like to pull a trigger now and then. I understand, buddy.

[Spencer]

Is that satisfying for him, you think?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I was puzzled though. I thought there. I was just waiting for. I thought there's more to the story, but it won't be in it. I gotta tell. I gotta tell two quick stories I think are pretty funny. You'll have to bear with me because they're about a guy you don't know, but everybody else knows him.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's fine.

[Steve Rinella]

I love, you know, Doug Durn. I just came. We. Every year I take my kids since my little boy was 4. My 14 year old was 4 the first time he went there. How awesome to hunt turkeys at Doug's place. Now we go during the kitty season, the two day long kid season.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, cool.

[Steve Rinella]

So we go every year. We're just at Doug's place and Doug, anybody's hung out with him like is like is adamant that people like he. He backs in his car.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, he's on no matter what.

[Steve Rinella]

He doesn't call it backing in pointing out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. When I didn't on his property, he like called me out for it. Dude. That was the first time I just discovered his.

[Steve Rinella]

What it comes from. So his. His grandpa or. No, his dad got attacked by his own chainsaw one time and had to drive himself to like hit himself in the brisket with a chainsaw. Good. Oh. And drove himself to a hospital. So Doug's telling. He's telling my kids this story. And even. And even though Doug's dad is manages to get in his car and drive all the way to the hospital. Doug explains to my kids, if he hadn't backed in, he'd be dead.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Back then. It wouldn't have worked.

[Steve Rinella]

I was like, doug.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And he's dead serious that he, like.

[Steve Rinella]

Got in the car and made it to the hospital. But backing out would have been the end of it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That would have been sealed.

[Corinne]

I'm sure that was the observation of the physician that treated him.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I was like, thank God it's fine to tell my kids to back in, but you don't need to, like, do, like, revision.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Scare tax. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

He hadn't backed in, he'd be dead.

[Spencer]

I associate that with volunteer firemen.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

All the volunteer firemen I know, they back in because if they get a fire call, they want to be out of there as quick as possible.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So somebody who. One of my best friends. He's now the CEO of the my law firm. And he always backs in. That comes from law enforcement. He's been a law enforcement his whole life. So that's just ingrained to him to.

[Steve Rinella]

I try to do it. I try to do it, but I get lazy now. But you know the thing about it, either way, you got to back out at some point.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I, I, I, it's like just. You either do it at the beginning or you do it at the end. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. I try to, like, do that. The other point, this is the end of my, my things about Doug. But Doug, my buddy Doug's got a buddy, Kefir, and they're talking about another guy getting caught up by his own chainsaw.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, God.

[Steve Rinella]

And this guy calls Doug. A lot of ch. A lot of incidents.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'm seeing a theme. Yeah.

[Randall]

Woodlot management country.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like everything. Yeah. Everything is like cutting his cotton at. Another guy gets hurt by his chainsaw. And he calls like, Doug finds out, but Doug's not around. And Doug's like, well, keeper's all around, always around. So he calls Kiefer to notify about the chainsaw injury. And Kiefer had a great quote. He says, I'm always around, but I'm never quite there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's good. That's good. That needs to be on, like a magnet or a bumper sticker.

[Corinne]

Yeah, it's a great.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's a great line. I'm always around, but not always there.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, so your book. Yeah, first book. The next conversation. Argue less, talk more. I got, I got a. This is a. I haven't read it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's fine.

[Steve Rinella]

I read the beginning, I would like to tell people because I feel like a lot of times people don't come out, come clean.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah. I've been on lots of podcasts and, you know, good and well, they've never. They haven't even cracked it open. That's fine. Not a problem. Yeah. Nah.

[Steve Rinella]

How'd you like. So you. You tried to take all you learned.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And put it in there?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Some of it, yeah. It was.

[Steve Rinella]

Walk me through the book.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. The.

[Randall]

Well, it kind of has to be all you learned because I keep looking at that title and trying to make a sequel out of it, and it's hard.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Right?

[Randall]

Yeah, it's definitive.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The conversation after that one. The next conversation.

[Steve Rinella]

Still arguing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

Question mark.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The convers after the next one. Yeah. So I have a social media that. Where when I was posting these videos, people would leave a comment, say, you need to write a book, please write a book, please write a book. And I thought, well, I guess I'll write a book. I mean, I was googling, how do you write a book? And then Tess came along. I mean, that's as simple as that.

[Steve Rinella]

What does it say when you write that in?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It talks about self publishing, really. And I thought I was gonna self publish it. And then Tess came along and saved me and Mark came and saved me. And so the idea was I wanted to provide the people that follow me my framework with how to communicate, how I do it, my thoughts on it, so that if they want to go and not need me, there you go. You don't have to watch my content anymore. You got the book. But it's not just a summary of every one of my hit viral videos or every one of that. It's not just a regurgitation. So it lays out three different rules, talks about how to say things with control, say things with confidence, and say to connect. And the idea is that people weren't watching my stuff. They handled the last conversation. They were watching that the change, how they were going to handle the next conversation. And that's how this whole thing kind of came about. How to help people argue less and talk more.

[Steve Rinella]

Tell me about the three things. Yeah, the three. Like give me a summation of what you mean by the. Whatever the hell you just laid out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, whatever that is.

[Steve Rinella]

I can't remember.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it's easy to Forget. The Rule 1, say it with control is all about, rather than trying to control the other person, things that you can do within your own body to help control yourself. Just kind of control. Regulate your own emotions before you get into it. Not excite the moment, make it worse. Saying things with confidence is learning about how to find your assertive. You have people that might over apologize or find ways to be really hesitant with their words. This is more about how to lean into it and be more assertive when you communicate. Three is how to say things, to connect, which is all about how to handle difficult conversations. How do you deliver bad news, how do you tell someone no and you're not really sure how to deal with it. How do you deal with these conversations that you're dreading while you're brushing your teeth and driving there? And you know you got to have it, but you don't know how. And so this gives a good framework for all of that. I like to say that some people might teach you how to play an instrument. I teach you the, I give you the sheet music, I tell you what chords to play. That's kind of how I relate.

[Cat]

Are those rules things that all trial lawyers learn or is this stuff you learned along the way?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, great question. No, this is law school. Doesn't teach you squat about reading people, only teaches you how to read the law, how to apply case law to certain facts and spot issues. Now trials, courtroom certainly can give you a lot of training and communication. How do you handle conflict? Because everything you do, you're being watched. You'll probably like this. So a lot of your really good attorneys, the ones that, let's just say, make a lot of money, they do really well. They won't wear their Rolex and drive their Mercedes to the courtroom. They have another. No, the good ones wear it. They have a different truck. They have like an old beat up 87. Shit, I've had my ma drop me off. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they wear like their secondhand suit. They.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh really?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Because as soon as you pull into the parking lot, jurors, prospective jurors, they're all watching you the whole way. So if you come in and you have like a whole team of five paralegals, it just means the Johnny Cochran approach. Yeah, exactly. So you have people that.

[Steve Rinella]

No kidding?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh yeah. Because as soon as you walk in, they're looking at everything. Because if you. Exactly. So if you come in with a whole bunch of people, they're going to assume you have a whole bunch of money. That means your client has put a whole lot of money, which means they're trying to hide something because they're afraid of this case. So it's very, very tactical. As soon as you. And it starts in the parking lot, it really does. But so anytime you go into the courtroom, you're being watched. You have your 12 jurors, or maybe six if you're in a county court. You got the judge, the bailiff, the court reporter, opposing counsel, paralegals, people that are back in the audience. Everything you do is watched.

[Steve Rinella]

It's coming up on summer camping season with me and my family. We start spending a lot of pretty chill weekends up in the mountains. And one thing I love about it is, you know, we're at home, everybody's kind of spread out. But when we're camping in our camper, me and my wife, our three kids are all, you know, in that same little space. I love it, man. I sleep better there than anywhere else. But my wife has long had major complaints about our camper mattress. So I went and got a Helix mattress for our camper. Queen size Helix mattress in our camper. And she's gonna be singing a whole new tune when she wakes up in the mountains now. It's gonna be perfect. I'm telling you, she's gonna want to fish more, she's gonna want to hike more because she's gonna be well rested. Go to helixsleep.com meater if you want to get 27% off site wide at helix. Plus you get a betting bundle which is a sheet set and mattress protector with any luxe or elite mattress order. And this is exclusive for listeners of Meat eater. So I don't care if you're rigging out your camper, if you're rigging out your cabin, if you're rigging out your main master bedroom at home, check it out. That's helixsleep.com me eater 27% off site wide plus a free bedding bundle with any lux or elite mattress. Again, offer exclusive for listeners of Me Eater. Helixsleep.com Me Eater hey, here's something that's scientifically proven. You can't have a good time in bad boots. That's why you need to covas. Ever wondered if you can pull off boots with your own personal style? You owe it to your feet to pull on a pair of Taco's. Being confident isn't about being different, it's about being yourself. You can find comfort in the traditions of the west and confidence for making it your own. Honor the west by leaving your own boot print to Cova's crafts quality western boots for everyone from generational ranchers and lifelong cowboys to first time boot buyers. Everyone at Taco's boots are handcrafted with over 200 meticulous steps for broken in comfort right out of the box. Whether it's a long day or a big night, your TO Covas are built to last and impress. There's no compromise between quality and style right now. Get 10 off at taco.commee eater when you sign up for email and text. That's 10 off at tacovas t-e c o v a s.commeater while you're there, check out their moccasin toe or mocto boots which I recently got a set of. They are beautiful. To covas.commeater c site for details to Covas Point your toes West Steve Rinella Here the American west with Dan Flores is a new podcast production on the Meat Eater Podcast Network. It's hosted by author and historian Dan Flores, who happens to be mine and our own Dr. Randall's former professor. By focusing on deep time wild animals, native peoples in the West's unique environment, Flores will challenge your understanding of the American west and he will help to explain why it is the way it is today. I count Dan Flores as a friend. We do not agree on everything, but he has had a massive impact on my understanding of American history and I invite you to get challenged by him in the same way that I have. Catch the premiere of the American west with Dan flores on Tuesday, May 6th on the meat Eater Podcast Network. Subscribe to the American west with Dan Flores On Apple, Spotify, iHeart or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Dan and it will stretch your brain all out. And I mean that in a very good way. Can I. Nothing to do with that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Don't matter communicating. But I'm just glad to be here.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, I want to get your quick feedback from something that happened when I was 18 years old.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

If this is normal or not. I tell the story all the time. I never asked someone who would know.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

I had jury duty and it's a crack cocaine trial.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Criminal trial. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. And they're pushing for a felony or like a, sorry, a life sentence for a crack dealer. We go through this whole trial and it's like wiretaps and translators, you know.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you make it on the jury.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm on the jury.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

It sat through the whole thing, man. It was fascinating. I loved it. So what they had to prove is that he'd sold a certain threshold of crack and they had bought. The undercover guys had bought like 90 of what they needed.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Just so all they needed to do was through money and all that other, like there has to have been another whatever pound. I don't know what the hell it was.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Remember?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

So the whole logic was like, here's all the. What we bought. And if he sold 10% more through his career, he would have trafficked X quantity of crack.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

And we come back very quickly with a guilty verdict. The judge was this dude named Mike Kobza. I'll always remember that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

He says, we do the whole thing. They take the guy away and he says, I'd like you to hang tight a minute to the jury, all right? And he says, if any of you has any feeling of remorse about what you just did, I want to tell you a couple things about that guy. And tells us all the non admissible evidence.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right?

[Steve Rinella]

All the double jeopardy shit.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Is that normal?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Very normal.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it's normal, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

It's fascinating.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's normal. And so he's like, oh, no, I'm.

[Steve Rinella]

Going to tell you. They did buy more than they needed. But it got.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And he had this and had that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And he like, whatever. Shot his girlfriend.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Any of it. Yeah, they. It's very, very common. And so. And that's criminal trial and civil trial. We get to ask questions of the jurors. So after the trial is over, if we want, we can ask the panel so we can go and ask them, how'd you like to trial? What evidence did you find? We know how you ruled.

[Steve Rinella]

They got an exit interview.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And they're free to answer or not. But often you have. The jurors will come to you after the trial, after you're done, whatever. They've ruled judgment on it. And then you get to ask them what. What piece of evidence did you like? What'd you not like? What'd you find most compelling? And so you'll have some that come up and hug, you know, your client. Just. I just want. I'm so sorry for all you've been through. There's people who hate the other side. I mean, or they might hate you. I mean, you just never. You never know. But yeah, you can definitely talk to them.

[Steve Rinella]

So it helps you hone your craft too.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Big time. Because you think that the one piece of evidence that you thought was so crucial, like, no, I got to get this in. They didn't care a lick about it. Didn't even enter their system. They were focused on this. And you had no idea they're watching your watch. Oh, yeah, yeah. Every little Thing, because, like, for example, if. Let's say I need to. Other side objects to some evidence, and it's what they would call a quick maybe objection battle in front of the jury, which you typically don't want to do. But when they say, can we approach the bench.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, she say that again. I don't understand.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, so let's say I need to object to a piece of evidence that's coming in. So, you, Honor. Objection. Your Honor, whatever it is, relevance, hearsay, you name it, and you typically will say, can we approach? Meaning we want to go to the bench and have this discussion because we don't want the jury to hear it. Jurors don't like that because it feels like, how come you get. Y' all get to talk and we don't get to hear it? Like, they don't. They're like, oh, what are y' all talking about? And they don't. They don't like that. So when you have an attorney who's objecting a lot, it's going, what are you hiding? What are you not wanting me to hear? They'll take. They'll count that against them.

[Steve Rinella]

Or, oh, like, even though the judge says, hey, never mind this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Even though the judge says specifically, they're going to object to that. Don't pay attention to it. They absolutely pay attention to it. And then you watch how the people leave.

[Steve Rinella]

It's like when you say to your kids, don't listen to what me and mom are going to say right now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. That's exactly right. And so when you leave, when the judge makes his ruling, now, it could be. We could have out in front. I don't have to approach the bench. We could just talk. But as soon as we're coming back, if you look defeated or you look mad or you look upset, let's say I objected to something and I lost, the other side's gonna go, okay. Whatever is about to be said is gonna hurt their case. Like, they pick up on it even more. So you have to be really strategic about if it's a fact that hurts you. Often, it's better to just let it in. Don't try and fight it, because they most likely won't even pay attention. After lunch, somebody just had Mexican food. They have Tex Mex, and they're, you know, somebody's nodding, somebody's writing notes, the other person's looking off. Like, you never. No, like a teacher. You typically don't want teachers on your jury. Like, when we're picking jurors because they hold class they'll say, well, no, if you watch X, Y, and Z. And then they want. They corral everybody in the room, and so they start to teach. And if a teacher is for you, that's the best thing. If a teacher's against you, you're cooked. You're absolutely cooked. Yeah. It's funny how that works.

[Steve Rinella]

I feel like asking you for hot tips on how to get out of jury duty for people, but that's kind of anti American.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it is anti American. I mean, pretty much, it's. The percentage of even getting to jury duty is very small. I mean, actually getting picked. Actually getting picked. I mean, I think anybody should be part of that experience. I mean, that's just. It's a system unlike any other.

[Corinne]

I want nothing more than to serve on a jury.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

I've never got. I got a summons, and then I realized that I live. Because we live outside of city limits. I wasn't eligible to be in that. In that trial, and I was just defeated.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Oh, that's rough.

[Randall]

Loving to be on a jury. Disqualify him from being on a jury?

[Jefferson Fisher]

No.

[Corinne]

I wonder if he said, oh, no.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm just excited to be here. I just want to be on a jury.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, they like that. They like that.

[Corinne]

I have a friend who's been on two incredible juries.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's cool.

[Corinne]

Really good stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah. I'll tell you how to get out of it, if you really want to know. And there's nothing wrong with this. It's whenever the. So they'll call it. In some parts of Texas, they say voir dire. Or parts of the US they say voir dire.

[Steve Rinella]

They use French in Texas.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, in Texas, we say voir dire. We call it voir dire. And so what you do is you take all the jurors. Everybody's got their pink slips or whatever. They come in, and it's just like a big cattle call. They're all sitting down. And so the attorneys, lawyers, we come up and start asking questions, trying to narrow down, and we pick up who we want on the jury, but it's not. You can't just say, like, dodgeball. Well, I want to pick, Steve. I want to pick whoever. It's not that. It's by process of elimination. So you have to say who you don't want, and whoever is left is who's going to be on the jury. I have a number of strikes. The other person has a. Other attorney has a number of strikes, and I can just strike somebody because I don't like anything about them, I can just say, oh, I got a funny feeling about this person. And I strike. It can't be a discriminatory reason, but whoever's left is how they get on. So if you want to get off the jury, be very opinionated at their questions. So if they're going to ask a question of, you know, how do you feel about lawsuits? And if you just answer, you know, I hate lawsuits, I hate attorneys, I hate everything. This whole thing, you will not get picked.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, that's what I figured. You could just play that game or you just. I don't even care if someone's guilty or not, if they've been accused of a crime, hang them.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I'm telling you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or on the civil side, meaning the non criminal side, if it's, you know, there's way too many lawsuits in the world or, you know, I think everybody should just, I don't. I hate big companies. You're going to get off the jury because somebody's going to say, you're too opinionated already. You're not showing that you're fair and impartial. Like. And this kind of relates to my world. I had, this is probably about a year and a half back. I'm taking Vordire and I'm asking my questions. Is a motor vehicle case and I go sit down. The defense attorney stands up and he has his, you know, his readers and he's, he's asking his questions and he, this is the first time I've ever heard anybody ask this. He says, anybody here follow Mr. Fisher's is social media. Anybody follow his social media? And probably about 60% of the hands.

[Steve Rinella]

Really?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I mean, and I never expected any of this.

[Randall]

Were you like, how many of you know I have my book.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And so I got signed copies in the trunk.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so this is. Anyway, and so he was kind of taken back. I was taken back and I remember looking at my client like I didn't expect that either. And, and so because he asked that question, you then have to show that each person could be fair and impartial. So even if you're related to somebody in the trial, you still have to show can you be fair and impartial? And so he goes, starts going down with every person who raised their hand. Can you be fair and impartial? Some people go, oh yeah, yeah, I can still, you know, take the evidence as it comes, no problem. Well then he got to this one lady, this sweet little lady, and he said, Ma' am, can you think you can be fair and impartial? And she said, no, sir, I don't believe I could. And he goes, why would that be? Which he should not have asked that. He should have just said, well, thank you, ma' am, and gone on to the next one. And she goes, well, you know what? I just watch every one of his videos. He is so kind and genuine, and I think if he has his case with his client, it's a real case. It's a real case. And then there were several in the audience in the panel who shook their head like, I agree. And he just goes, thank you. Thank you very much. And so we went on, continue on, and I was, like, trying not to bust out laughing. And we settled the case about 30 minutes later. But, yeah, that just goes to show. I never expected that, but, yeah. Or I'll have a judge at the end of a hearing that I've never been in front of before. As we're both leaving with the other attorney, he'll say, Mr. Fisher, I like what you're doing.

[Corinne]

He's that on my wife.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

We had a trial attorney write in one time. Amazing. Some of the details. But he was sharing with us that he was doing jury selection, and he didn't tell us if he wanted the. He wanted to be able to identify any hunters in the jury.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, okay.

[Steve Rinella]

He never said if he wanted to get him in or out. But he also said he didn't want his logic to be understood by the other side.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Interesting.

[Steve Rinella]

And he wrote in because he said, I asked, do any of you listen to the meat eater podcast?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, that's a good way to ask.

[Steve Rinella]

But he never gave me any of the details, like, did he want them in or out?

[Jefferson Fisher]

He probably. It depends. Depends. So historically, plaintiffs benefit. That means somebody who has the complaint, somebody who's been hurt, somebody who's suing somebody else. This is on the civil side. It could be on the criminal side, too. Those that are more right leaning are more likely to say, yes, they're guilty. They're more likely to turn down somebody who's on a civil lawsuit. So they're going to lean in favor of the business, not the person who's hurt.

[Steve Rinella]

Got it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So the plaintiffs are people who typically lean or benefit from somebody who's more, let's say, liberal leaning. And then you have your blue counties, your red counties. I mean, it's very much controlled and like the state of Texas, very red now. And so that leans on what kind of jurors you're going to get. So most likely, let's say if most hunters. Let's just put a generalized statement, most hunters lean a certain way, then that's what he's hoping for of that kind of mindset. Now, there's always exceptions, but that's. That's kind of how they roll.

[Steve Rinella]

What? My guess wound up being I should have written him back. My guess was that it was a. Maybe a poaching case.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And if he wanted to trivialize the offense like, it's just an elk, who cares?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, right.

[Steve Rinella]

You'd want to get all the hunters out of there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, for sure.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, then today and paint a picture like this. He shot an elk on his own place. Who gives a shit?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Steve Rinella]

Or whatever.

[Jefferson Fisher]

If it's a poaching case. Did he say where he lived?

[Steve Rinella]

Man, we'd have to go find it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, that's fine.

[Steve Rinella]

But, yeah, I only remember as much as I'm telling you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, but I mean, but that just goes to show you it's case by case. Like, there's some people that I would. Depending on the facts, I definitely want them on jury. There's some that I would not want a million miles from the deliberation room. And so you have people that, yeah, if they're a hunter, they're going to take conservation a lot more seriously.

[Randall]

And, yeah, I had a bench warrant for my arrest. I'd like to say one time, his.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Openings are the best.

[Randall]

I love, like, how I've had a couple. Just out of pure negligence, not out of, you know, real solid criminal activity.

[Steve Rinella]

Like from not checking your mail.

[Randall]

From not checking my mail. Yeah, yeah. And I was notified that I had a bench warrant. I was guiding at the time. So I spent a lot of time in the woods, not in cell reception, and definitely not getting mail.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Randall]

And it was for not paying a parking ticket for, like, a very long time, I think, or a speeding ticket or something. And. And so I go into the courtroom, submit my. I have my letter finally. Yeah, Very overdue letter. Submit it. They're like, yeah, great.

[Steve Rinella]

That.

[Randall]

You know, stand in line over here. The judge. You'll see Aloudon in Missoula. And I really dressed basically like I am right now. I'm like, oh, my God, this is not gonna go well. And so they finally get through. Get. Get up to me, and it's my turn. And. And I'm like, yep, you know, guilty for the. The ticket. You know, can I explain what happened? And judge is like, sure. I said, yeah, I, you know, I spend a lot of time in the woods and I don't have access to mail or, you know, and I'm. But I'm in town now.

[Steve Rinella]

Wrapping up loose ends. Yeah.

[Randall]

And the judge just like, basically said some version of. Yeah, I believe you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But.

[Randall]

And it was purely based off of appearance.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

[Randall]

And so now having this conversation, I am, I'm like, I'm wondering if I would have, if anything would have changed.

[Corinne]

If you'd worn your Rolex.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

If I would have gone and found a suit or, you know, borrowed my buddy's ties and stuff like that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, probably not. Like, I find that most of your courthouses, especially the smaller ones, they're just good small town people and they. If you just treat them with kindness, like, if you're just nice, you're not rude. You know, I can't believe I just got this. I mean, the person who has all the power is really your county clerk. Those ladies behind the desk who's. Same for like your court coordinator. Those are the people who have the real power in those courthouses. Oh, yeah. Those are the ones that sway the judges. Because when you're, when you're in trial, the judge, the court reporter, the bailiff, they all go back to the chamber. You know what they do? They talk trash on your entire trial. I mean, they're, they're, they're kind of laying bets on who's gonna win, what evidence is.

[Steve Rinella]

Really?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, they talk, they gossip about everything. Yeah. And so they already kind of know in their mind, oh no, that evidence is gonna work or that's not gonna go well or who's. Who's winning and who's not winning. So that, I mean, it's like they're, it's like they're, they're junk tv, man. Yeah, yeah. The whole thing. But no, I think how you, you set it up, I wouldn't have changed that. Because if you're trying. Well, there is a difference between people who. Let's say if you wore a real nice suit and you dressed all up and then you acted like a jerk. That is never gonna. Yeah, yeah. They're not gonna go well. But I mean, you definitely fit the look. So. You know, I was at the fish.

[Steve Rinella]

I was at the fishing game in the best way.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

I have no reason to not believe this. Really.

[Steve Rinella]

I went to the fishing game office with a co worker right down the road.

[Randall]

Huh.

[Steve Rinella]

Who gets arrested while we're in there because of a bench warrant.

[Randall]

Amazing.

[Spencer]

I've heard this Version.

[Corinne]

I was wondering if this is going to come up.

[Cat]

Did you stick around to see how it turned out, or you just.

[Steve Rinella]

No.

[Randall]

Steve started reading stuff on the wall, coughed and stuffed. You're kidding me.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm like, yee.

[Cat]

You took care of what you had to take care of.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's awesome. It'd have been hilarious if he was, like, reading stuff on the wall. John. John, where'd you go?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, because, like, you go down and you present your name and they. Whatever.

[Randall]

Unreal.

[Steve Rinella]

Cuffed and stuffed.

[Spencer]

Have you worked any outdoor crimes before?

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, no Outdoor Crimes. All of my stuff is civil. I have a lot of friends that do criminal law. You're either on the state side prosecuting, or you're defending them. I mean, we have. Our game wardens are pretty cool. Everybody's really chill down where I'm at. So I live in southeast Texas, a little bit north of a town called Beaumont. Oh, yeah. So it's called Silsby is the. Is the name of where I live. And just deep East Texas.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. That's like. You guys have boudin down there?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah, we got boudin. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Huh?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So it's. It's what I love so much about the area is you have your lakes, you have your rivers. You. You have the Gulf right there. I'm about 45 minutes, which goes.

[Steve Rinella]

Which Gulf is that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I call the Gulf of Mexico. That's what everybody wants to correct you nowadays. Like, it's Gulf of Mexico for me, man.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude, we were doing VO the other day. We had, like. We're doing VO for a meteor episode.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Which occurred there, you know, and it was so hard to, like, navigate it. I'm like, I don't know, man. Like, what do you call it?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So I said, I settled on the Gulf of. You know.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. That's the best way you can probably do it. This is probably the best way you could do it. Yeah. So. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So it's, like, so silly.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It is.

[Steve Rinella]

I think that, like, change names of things, but at the same time, it's like. It's also. It's so silly, but it's also like, I don't want to get into it. It's like a little war. It's a little language. It's like a little. Hey, I'll show you what it's like exactly, to have to choose your words real careful all the time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Ye. Yeah. So how do we handle that conflict? Yeah, let's get into it. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Now we gotta get into the meat. Okay. Who's got this first one about. We're gonna put. We're gonna put this to the test now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, what do y' all have? Everybody's got.

[Randall]

We got.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no, it's just scenarios.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

That you can help us walk through.

[Cat]

Well, the first one is how to properly execute the insult compliment sandwich.

[Steve Rinella]

But I want to get into this. I want to do. I want to go to specifics first just to get the flavor. Who's got this one about? This starts co workers and girlfriends.

[Randall]

I don't know who wrote that one, but it's sure good.

[Steve Rinella]

Where'd it come from? Who wrote that one?

[Randall]

Man, I wish we could find out. Always casually backups.

[Steve Rinella]

You're just gonna read it for us? Yeah. Okay.

[Spencer]

Wherever it came from, he's admitting it was him.

[Randall]

I don't know. It's an open document. Everybody's got access to it.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. So he's gonna hit you. He's gonna.

[Corinne]

I guess he's gonna hit you.

[Steve Rinella]

And you're gonna help us think through. You're gonna help walk through how to handle difficult situations.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I love it.

[Randall]

And at the end of the day, whoever wrote it is not. Not really the point.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right, Right.

[Spencer]

They still love their girlfriend.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

These are universal problems. Yeah.

[Randall]

You know, people write in and message and stuff all the time. So we get a lot of.

[Spencer]

Sometimes they have a mustache.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Co workers and girlfriends always casually ask about hunting spot locations. Unfortunately, they cannot be trusted. Not because they are stealing spots, but because they don't understand that this information can never be brought up in a casual conversation. Ever. The reasoning behind my non answers to these questions have already been explained, but they continue to ask anyway. So now I just lie, which I hate. How do you navigate that scenario?

[Jefferson Fisher]

So for whoever wrote this in, I would ask them this kind of clarifying question, and maybe you have an idea of what they might say. Is this a conversation that's happening in front of other people or is this just one on one with whoever this girlfriend or spouse might be and co workers.

[Randall]

Let's not forget the co workers part. It can be both. It can be both.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So you have something. Okay, this is super specific. So let's say there's a piece of information that you're telling someone. I can't tell you that. And they're having to continually repeat that kind of thing. Do you feel that they're just breaking that trust or they. Is it intentional from this other person or is it just. They're just not thinking about it.

[Randall]

They're just not thinking about it. It's not internalized on the same level as it's typically like a younger hunter versus a more seasoned hunter. Because. Right. The value of that information only increases over time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay, so give me a little insight here. When you. Where are you? Certain spots are. Yeah, certain spots are. They. This is news to me. Like, you just don't. If you're like, hey, this is a great area. We're not going to go. We're not going to tell people that we're hunting.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Like, yeah, like this is a pop. This is a public land problem.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Ah, okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Or fish. Or a fishing problem.

[Cat]

You got a circle of trust who you might share it with. But then like there's people that you're not gonna.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So guy like Cat. Let's say a guy like Cal.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Just as an example.

[Steve Rinella]

A guy like Cal has girlfriend says, well, where are you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, okay.

[Steve Rinella]

And he goes, I'm up on Nunya business creek.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. What his problem now is someone's gonna go like, hey, what's Cal doing? I don't know. He caught. He sent me a picture. He called all these fish.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Where is he?

[Steve Rinella]

Where is he? Like he said, he's on Nunny business creek there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

No, she didn't know that. She just was blowing it up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There we go.

[Steve Rinella]

But he just knows it's gonna slip.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'm with you.

[Steve Rinella]

And so if he goes, I can't tell you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'd say, I guess, what's the problem with that? So this would be my thought. This would be my thought on that is one, of course it's good to know that it's not attention from this other person. Two, they're only calling because they care. They're probably calling to create conversation. Is my guess that they're just generally wanting to know where you are. I think if you come at it from I'm safe over in the most general area that you can be without telling them where exactly you are is probably your best bet because that sounds like the reason they're asking is not really to know the information that could slip of getting out. This is where we're having this wonderful honey hole. It's that she's just asking because she probably just is making conversation, wants to know you're safe. But it doesn't solve this problem.

[Steve Rinella]

But the co workers.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The co workers are not the co workers of. Okay. Are co workers here.

[Steve Rinella]

They're mining for information.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Who are co workers here in this scenario? Are these people you're working with or.

[Steve Rinella]

It'S people she's working with let's say it's me. I'm like, hey, where'd you get that big old buck?

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you couldn't. He can't tell you.

[Randall]

Right. Steve would be like, boy, it looks like Cal had a pretty good weekend.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Where was I? Yeah, where was he?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, okay. So then, because there's this totally other.

[Randall]

Scenario, like fishing scenario that we have in common. Steve is gracious enough to lend out his boat from time to time. We're fishing a lot of the same spots. And in that scenario, I'm like, hey, this is what happened. This is where I was and this.

[Steve Rinella]

Is what I was using because it's my damn boat.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

If I said, if I said, where did you take my boat? Yeah, that'd be weird if you said, I can't tell you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay. Yeah, okay. I can't tell. He's gonna throw like a tracker in.

[Steve Rinella]

It, you know, let's hit you with a different one.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, no, but what I would end it with is one. It's lighthearted. Right. So I would come up with some kind of phrase that's really more of a humorous joke for you. Whether it's like, oh, I just went down to mystery city or whatever it was. If you're making it a joke that way, it's not her taking it like it's serious. So that's kind of like a code. When I tell you it's here, it's because I'm telling you because I can't let anybody know. It's not that I don't want you to know. I just can't.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, we've built that joke with our kids where I'll joke with my kids, like tell them it's where none. Your creek flows into business.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There we go. Exactly. Yeah. So a lot of times humor just adding in a little bit of a joke. Like if I need to, you know, like a grandparent. So this is the first time I go into my grandparents house and I remember asking my grandmother, you know, my meemaw. I said, where's papaw? And she said, oh, he's in his office. That meant he was in the bathroom. And so it was just a way of like when company was around, not letting them know where he was. And so. Or somebody says, where'd you get that? You go, it just fell off the back of a truck. Is what we would typically safe. I don't want to express in some way. So find some kind of metaphor.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That is also code.

[Randall]

This also implies that you. I see you have a wedding ring Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

That your brand of humor must not wear off over time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, because it does in my house. That's funny. That's funny.

[Steve Rinella]

This show is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Now I know that there is a stigma, especially among guys. I find a stigma against using therapy because people might think it was weak. I was actually raised differently where my dad was quite open about the fact of having relied on therapy after coming home from the war to make some adjustments. Well, mental health awareness is growing, but there's still some progress to be made. 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey say they have avoided seeking mental health support due to a fear of judgment. When people hesitate to get help, though, it doesn't just affect them, it impacts families, workplaces, entire communities. This is mental health awareness month. So let's encourage everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy. A BetterHelp has over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapist from their diverse network of more than 30,000 licensed therapists with a wide range of specialties. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com meater to get 10 off your first month. That's betterhelp. H-E-L-P.com me eater. Nothing to be ashamed of. Okay, here's one.

[Jefferson Fisher]

All right.

[Steve Rinella]

You have a buddy.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

You're a duck hunter. I'll put. So, yeah. You have a body who is learning to call. Learning to duck call. They're terrible. You feel that this calling they're doing and they, they insist on calling a lot.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And it's just, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to you. They're trying to learn.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But it's not working right now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

How do you, how do you, how.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Do you, how do you approach that? Yeah. So I would, I would. It's funny because I've probably been that other kid. Sure. Learning how to start doing duck calls. I would begin with this phrase. I'm telling you this because, like, a lot of time we're not sure.

[Steve Rinella]

Did you use that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because a lot of times you don't know.

[Steve Rinella]

My hackles are up already.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I'm telling you it's because. I'm telling you it's because I love you. I'm telling you it's because you're my best friend. I'm telling you because I know you're really excited about this game. Call like whatever it is, whatever it is. A lot of Times, people just don't know why you're telling them things. You start talking, but you say, like.

[Cat]

I'm telling you this. Cause we're here to kill ducks. And if you keep calling, we're not gonna kill. That's okay. You know what I mean?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Even if it's a we thing. I'm telling you this because we're here to kill the most amount of ducks we can. What you're doing probably not the best strategy right now.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, just come flat out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah. When you're super indirect, I feel it's also like, if it's a hunting buddy, this is the person who we speak. Very direct. I mean, if it's me and another guy, direct conversation is usually not that much of a struggle for two dudes who have just become really close. Because when you have a hunting buddy, I mean, you can do just about. You talk about everything when you're in the blind or in the stand. And so conversation happens. So I wouldn't skirt around it at all. But when you say, I'm telling you this because a lot of the times it's.

[Steve Rinella]

It's.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The work is for you. I guess it works both ways. It's. On one, I'm talking about the goal of what I'm wanting to say. Because most people wait until they're talking to figure out what they actually want to say. And then at the other side, I'm telling the person why I'm telling them that. I mean, you can say X, Y, and Z, but they're not sure what the point is behind it. Yeah. I'd put it out as flat as you can.

[Steve Rinella]

Let me complexify it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Wonderful.

[Steve Rinella]

There's other individuals present.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, It's.

[Steve Rinella]

Everybody doesn't really know each other that well.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

So here you are in a situation like, I want to show everybody a good time, which means having some success because they're going to enjoy that at the same time. Do I, Do I. Am I going to humiliate this guy in front of all these other people?

[Jefferson Fisher]

So they. Yeah, I would. I definitely wouldn't. That wouldn't be your default there. I would toss it up as a question to them. Or even saying maybe, like, give them a choice. So even if you say something like, hey, so maybe we. I want to. I like how you're calling them. Let's maybe wait until we're doing X, Y, and Z. Or let's say you want it to stop altogether and just say, hey, I have some ideas for you on the gang call. I need you to hold off for a few X, Y, and Z, a few passes, and we'll try later on in the afternoon, maybe when they're not coming in as hard. So, I mean, like, could you be.

[Cat]

Could you be, like, sneaky about it and be like, listen, you need to listen to this guy call for a while?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely.

[Cat]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Ain't nothing wrong with that. I mean, I think anytime. You're also using that as, like, a teaching opportunity because they're trying to get better at it. I mean, because I know I have two cousins of mine that guide over in Lake Caddo, which is North Texas. And, yeah, they'll go. And sometimes while they were learning, we'd be with a real guide out and duck hunting or something. And because they think that they've done a few guides, they're just as good as they are. And the real guide that we're paying is, God, can y' all. We need y' all Knock it off. And so, you know what I've heard them go is just go, hey, guys, I need you to hold off for a little bit. And he just never tells them when to come back on. But that's how they. That's also how they learn. So everybody's been around that. So it's. I do like it. It can be really forgiving. It just. You can't do it at a time where, let's say, everybody's got their schedule together. You've spent money on all of this stuff. You're here to achieve a goal. So if you. If they're hurting that goal, you need to tell them.

[Steve Rinella]

So you. You never. You wouldn't recommend just letting it be like, you got to go.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You.

[Steve Rinella]

You recognize the need to address it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Definitely. Yeah. Well, there's some things I would let be, but if it's just they're blowing the call and they're. If they're. If they're blowing the ducks, I mean, then, yeah, I would definitely be saying.

[Steve Rinella]

Something, okay, who's got this one?

[Cat]

This one's mine. This has happened to me more than once. And it'll often come down to who can get their stuff together fastest and start running up the trail. But you arrive at the trailhead of parking spot the same time as a complete stranger, and there's already tension in the air. How to address who's going to hunt where, especially when you've got, like, a specific spot already in mind that you're going to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And they. And they're going to the same spot. Well.

[Cat]

Well, it's either you race Them. You get ahead of them without saying a word to get to your spot. Or you decide to have a conversation with them and say, who's going where? I've got. Like, how do you. How do you get to where you're like, I'm going to this spot.

[Corinne]

You shouldn't.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You shouldn't.

[Corinne]

Well, no, no. You tell the other guy they shouldn't.

[Steve Rinella]

Go picture at a boat launch.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Steve Rinella]

It's like pre. It's like duck season. You had a boat launch. Most people that launch boats in this place are going to X place.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Correct.

[Steve Rinella]

There's another guy launching right next to you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. You're not sure.

[Steve Rinella]

You could either be like, well, I'm not. I'm just gonna act like he's not.

[Cat]

Here and just tear ass out of there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Or you'd be like, let's go.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So like, hey, you know, where are you headed? Because I'm thinking about.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. Yeah, I. I've. I've seen it best work where you act. You approach that person, say, hey. Hey. You heading out? Heading out. Yeah. Getting ready. We'll just have, you know, a little bit of BS and then. Well, you want to. I think we should make a plan on where each other are going. So in other. It's one of these things where it's always good to just say we instead of, hey, where are you going? And they're going to go. I don't know if I should tell you.

[Cat]

Yeah. Because I've done it. Where I've approached a person and I've said, where are you thinking about going? And then they'll say, the spot where I was. And then I'm in a pickle.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Cat]

If they're planning on going where I was, then I'm like, then I got to be like, okay, go ahead.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, I like that. Like, hey, what should we do here?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Whenever you can say, kind of you're acknowledging that they're there. I wouldn't just ignore them, but I think it shows a lot of maturity, too. Just as a mature hunter to go up to the person, introduce yourself because you're getting to meet another person, be another hunter. Great. That's another good contact for you. Because they're always another set of eyes and ears on what's happening. And if you could say, hey, I think we should. I think you okay with us making a plan on where each other are going? They're most likely going to say, yeah. Or even if you recommend it, hey, I think we should have a plan on. Let's make A game plan, if that's all right with you, and where we're going. And then they'll typically. Well, I think about going X, Y and Z. Or they might just say, yeah, that. That sounds good. And that gives you the chance to say, I think I'm going to head off, you know, this direction. Going to cut east around the bend there, and then just land somewhere around there. If they're going the same place, then that's a different. That's a different scenario. Depends if you're really wanting to. It's kind of like whoever says it first. Yeah. You know, whoever kind of claims.

[Cat]

And I've never want. I've always been like, where are you going? Rather than I'm going here.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Cat]

You know what I mean?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I've definitely heard those kind of people say, well, I'm going this way. I don't know where you're going. This is where I'm going. Meaning, don't ever. Don't even think about going that direction. Because I think hunters in particular, as part of the. The nature of it all, we're very territorial.

[Steve Rinella]

Sure.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Very dominant. It's whatever we can to mark our territory, our fishing spot or whatever it is.

[Steve Rinella]

So you know how I got out of this? Most recently, what's happened? Me and my kid were elk hunting. We had this whole plan put together. And then we get there and there's a truck parked there. The truck's still running. There's guys in it. So I said to my kid, I said, hey, go ask those guys what they're doing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Give the kid.

[Steve Rinella]

Because I hate those conversations.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

He came back with a report.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Was it helpful?

[Steve Rinella]

Well, they were doing exactly. They had exactly. They saw exactly what we had seen.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And they were doing the same thing. Well, not everybody can have their own scout, you know.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But. So here's the deal with that approach. Where are you going? They said where they're going, and he comes back and tells me where they're going. And we just went to plan B. Had I gone up and said, hey, we should. Since we're both here at the same time, we should make a little plan.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[Steve Rinella]

It's just because I. With the way I approached it, it was like I made it. I made it sort of binary and lost out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Cat]

But there's also like this, like, unwritten rule kind of sorta where, like, if you get to a trailhead and there's someone, even if they got there 30 seconds before you, it's like, well, they were here first.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Cat]

You know what I mean?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, but that depends a lot on like what kind of sit, like.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

What kind of trailhead, what kind of boat launch.

[Cat]

But it's there.

[Steve Rinella]

It can be there. But if it's like a boat launch, there's like tons of people.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

It's just different rules than if it's like some weird ass bridge.

[Cat]

If it's 4:30 in the morning and the guy like, you know where the gobblers are, It's.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I just think if you, if you approach the conversation, you can put it however terms you want. But if you say, you know, hey, we're both here for a good hunt this morning. Let's, let's make a plan where we're going. And it just opens you up for really the whole goal. It's another relationship that you could have with this person because you're gonna know them and next time you see them again, you're gonna know who they are. You're meeting them really for the next time. Yeah, that's why you're meeting them.

[Corinne]

Yeah. I've got a guy that I've run into bear hunting and we ran into each other like two springs in a row. And then just over time where I see him and I'm like, hey, how's it going? And then one time we ended up shooting an elk out there and we didn't have enough game bags with us. And I, I texted the guy, he's like, oh, they got him in the basement of the hardware store. Just go down to the basement and they've got bags.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh really?

[Corinne]

Yeah. But it's funny, it's like I've never met him outside of the context of two trucks on a forest service road. And most people that I encounter in that way, I think that they're an asshole.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That funny.

[Steve Rinella]

That was John. Yeah. John Gerox. The late John Girox line was similar. He said there's two kinds of fishermen. Yeah, there's the guys you're with and the.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, that's very true. Yeah, it's very easy to us, us versus them. I mean you just apply that, you can apply that in the business context. You think of that as anything else. It's the same way. And I think there's also the kind of natural element of we're competing for the same animal. You know, a sense of who's going to be the best warrior out there. And so it's very easy to get confrontational with people.

[Randall]

Steve brings up a good scenario I've told you guys this one before, but this is just like an after work hunt. Right. And I was always, like, very prepared, so. Because I did not want to have any sort of human interaction when I got to my spot. So I'd have, like, my backpack fully rigged up and all I had to do.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

Is just my back and go. Yeah, right. It was just to minimize these scenarios.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

And this is really, really steep country. And this car pulls up, guy and a kid, and guys, hey, where are you going? I said, oh, I'm going up on. On this ridge. And he goes, oh, well, that's where my kid's going. Just dropping them off. And it was just one of those things where I was like, well, if he had a plan, he probably should have said that instead of asking. And B, that kid might get part of the way up that thing. But there's no. No. Like there's just not. Wasn't in the realm of a realistic possibility that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, let me see the kid.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's he at?

[Randall]

Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Where's he at?

[Randall]

And so I just left it. I said, okay, well, I'll see him up there and if he gets something, I'll help him out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And that's the perfect response.

[Randall]

I was kind of.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, well, it's so funny because, like, where I'm at, we don't. There's no public link. I mean, you just don't. You just don't have that available.

[Steve Rinella]

So I love the conversation.

[Randall]

You can tell the dad in this scenario did not find that to be the perfect response.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, well, I can imagine. Yeah, I can imagine. But that's one of the reasons why I love listening to this podcast, because you talk about the public land stuff.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, there are power. There are powers that be.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

They would prefer it that no one had public land. Aquan.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's unreal. No, that's unreal to me.

[Steve Rinella]

Spencer, hit him with the mushroom question.

[Spencer]

This is like a legal one. What if I serve someone mushrooms that get them really sick? Can they sue me? Like, am I. Can I get in trouble? Phil comes over for a dinner party. I serve him a delicious meal of mushrooms. But they weren't the mushroom I thought they were.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, so you don't own a restaurant.

[Randall]

And you didn't Spencer, use his words proactively to avoid.

[Spencer]

I think they're a chantrelle, but it turns out they're a jack o' lantern. And then those type of mushrooms get you real poisonedness. They get you real sick. Could I get in Trouble for that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. You could. If they wanted to see. Yeah. I mean, if at a private home. Yeah. Even if, like, let's say you somehow they were on your back porch balcony and they were leaning against a rail, and that was a rail that you knew you needed to fix but you didn't tell them, and they leaned on it and just fell off and broke their neck. Oh, yeah. They can see you.

[Spencer]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's why you have homeowners insurance. Hopefully so. Because it's. Even though you're technically. They have different types of people who come onto a premise and you have licensees, you have guests and invitees, and it all depends on the purpose of why you're there. So, like, as a here, like I come here, if I trip on something, I'm not coming up with any ideas. Yeah. Just so you know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna watch out for these wires. Phil, Are these wires okay?

[Steve Rinella]

They're mostly covered.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. If you came there for the purpose of somebody else. Yeah. You can't. You can be held liable now. There's going to be a big difference for you. Well, let's say you can sue them. Yes. Would you probably have likelihood of recovery? Probably not. Also, would you ever have a friend again with this person? No.

[Spencer]

What if I, like, gave Phil the mushrooms and he took them home and cooked them? Like, I think, Phil, that these are chanterelles, but they were jack O lanterns.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It depends on your knowledge. So it goes to element of knowledge. Did you have actual notice? What they would say is what they would call sufficient notice. Like you knew or should have known. So that should have known will get you. So if you knew they caused problems, then yeah, that could definitely get you in trouble. If you had no idea whatsoever. Or let's say they were illegal to have for whatever reason. So it doesn't matter if you had notice of whether they were good or bad for you. It's kind of like giving contraband for the notice of. That's. That's. It's only intended purpose. So one of my favorite. Just because this. I know this is a little off, but one of my favorite topics to talk about. So I wrote my. In law school, you have different journals you can be on, and everybody wants to be on the law journal, which is the most. The top of the writing where you write articles that get put into books. And I wrote mine on negligent entrustment of a handgun. Of a firearm. That was my negligent entrustment. Yeah. Yeah. Negligent entrustment of a firearm. Because you have, there's just different states. It was really to talk about just the status of the law.

[Steve Rinella]

But tell people what, like translate that for people.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So because I could see like entrustment of a firearm. But tell me what you're talking about.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Cool. So meaning that you entrusted a firearm to let's say a 16 year old son who you knew had proclivities for violence, who had run ins with the law, who played war video games all the time and they entrusted the gun to the 16 year old and the 6 year old committed a shot somebody. But that happens too. Of cases where there was one where a guy would have a, had a firearm he kept in the office and all the women in the office knew if they work late at night he had a gun in his desk should they need it for self defense. Well, one of the women was actually having an affair with that guy. And when she had an argument with her husband.

[Steve Rinella]

She needs to get your book.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. When she had an argument with her husband, she went back to the office, grabbed that gun, went to her husband and shot him. And so it was a big legal question of. So she didn't own the gun. He did. He left it accessible for her should he need it. But did he have the requisite knowledge given that he knew that they were having marital problems, he knew that she had talked about shooting her husband. So like all this stuff how it's not his fault. So that's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. So whether or not whose fault do you think? You know, I know more facts on the case that he was very much involved with. Hey, you can have this coffee if you want. I mean you can pour this coffee on him. That's fine. No it's fine. You don't have to like continually pushing the gun and using the gun.

[Spencer]

What was the verdict?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It actually went to the appellate court. The jury said yes, that he was found liable for negligent trust of a firearm. But the appellate court in Texas said no, there's no. It did not even recognize the cause of action. So my whole article was whether or not to recognize the cause of action. Now we recognize in Texas the cause of action for a car, right. So if you allow your 14 year old, I give my keys or I make my keys accessible for my 14 year old and so you can use the truck if you need it. And he goes and drives. Now he's not a competent driver. He does not have a license for it. He goes out and causes an accident. I as the Parent as the owner of that vehicle, I can be held negligent. Same thing for companies. They have an employee who they know who's caused tons of accidents and they're going to let him drive knowing that he's caused all kinds of problems. You can. It's just a theory of liability. That's all it is. But here I was making the legal comparison because I just found it so intriguing of with a firearm you have a license, you need to show competency to use it relatively. What's the utility of a car? It's a drive utility of a weapon is to shoot. So should it be a higher threshold? So anyway, that came to mind of what's the theory of liability There several states recognize negligent trust move of a firearm, but Texas just does not.

[Randall]

Can I ask one, one question on this, this line of thinking? So I was given a shotgun and the person who gave me the shotgun had the barrels checked to just make sure it was still a good shot. Old, old side by side. And the. Probably the second day that I used it, it was hunting with, with a friend of mine and we finally got into some birds, shot the gun. Gunshot. Great. And I went to reload the shotgun. I, you know, you always maintain good control of your barrels. And I, I'm looking at, I mean I just remember this so clearly because every time crazy stuff happens, it's scary, right? So I'm looking at him and I close the gun and bam.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, right, right.

[Randall]

And so I'm like, okay, I must have had my finger on the trigger. And my friend's like, jesus, that was stupid. What are you doing? I'm like, well wait a minute, am I stupid?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right, Right.

[Randall]

Well, I pulled it shells out, put new shells in. I'm like, fingers clear the trigger close.

[Steve Rinella]

Bam.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh yeah, right.

[Steve Rinella]

That gets to hurting your knuckles after a while too, if it's not shoulder.

[Randall]

Yeah. So yeah, took the gun into a gunsmith and yeah, there you go inside the action. You know, it was just an old gun that had been sitting in a Massachusetts basement for a long time.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep. And then to be. Did that dude have reason to believe?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. No, no, that wouldn't have passed.

[Randall]

That's not negligent entrustment of a firearm.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, no. I mean that's not at all like. I am very much a proponent of. Just because you hand a child a BB gun, a pelagon or whatever it is and all of a sudden you should be liable for everything they do with it. Absolutely not. I'm saying there's a Level of knowledge. It's really just more for the legal theory, discussion of it, of how much sufficient knowledge do you have to have. So you see this come into play with, of course, with mass shootings. There's a student who came to school with something and so the parents just had a AK47 at the. In the bedroom right there or whatever it is.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. That's the thing you're seeing lately though, is prosecuting parents.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Correct. Yeah. Saying you should know better to properly store your gun or keep it away from people who cannot. Who should not be allowed to use it. And you see this a lot with the children that truly have problems. But you know, in the case I was talking about, the guy who owned the gun was much more pushing it onto her than then what evidence could come out for that appellate court. But anyway, yeah, I just find it so intriguing that if you knew giving a gun to somebody that they're likely to cause harm to a person not just because they're new their kid. Like competency is just one element. It's also the knowledge. So the state of Texas in. Well, the appellate court said, no, you have to have knowledge that they will use the gun to harm somebody. So in the case of the husband and wife, then the husband should have had the knowledge that she would use the gun to kill her husband. And that was the. That was the gray area. But that just goes to like, had.

[Steve Rinella]

She said, do you happen to have anything I can use to kill my husband?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

And he said, yeah, this pistol.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

He would have been in trouble for that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So it just goes to the level of knowledge. The appellate court said, no, he didn't have sufficient knowledge. The facts showed he probably knew that could something I knew she didn't. I knew they had marital problems, but I didn't know she's going to actually kill the guy. That was kind of how that works. But that's what made me. When you're talking about the mushrooms of, you know what if you give it to somebody else, does that create a chain of liability? And there's sometimes that. Yeah. When you entrust something, that's what they call entrusting a chattel is the legal term for it. Then you can in certain situations be liable for it. Pretty wild.

[Steve Rinella]

Spencer's put another one down that I want him to jump to, which is asking. Go ahead. The permission. Permissions. Permissions. Remember we used to do that as.

[Jefferson Fisher]

FID around the roof. Yeah.

[Spencer]

I, I have a question specifically about like preparing for a hard conversation. I ask a lot of Folks for hunting permission. This year, I'm trying to hunt a new state. And so I identified six landowners. Sixteen landowners I wanted to ask permission for. And I called 16 of them a couple Saturdays ago and asked for permission. The current way I treat that because I, like, sort of dread it. It's a hard conversation. I'm a stranger. I'm asking them for, like, one of the greatest favors they could possibly do for me.

[Randall]

Hello, my name's Spencer Newharth.

[Spencer]

Yeah, that's how it goes. How could you.

[Steve Rinella]

You send your kids up? Question one, go talk to that guy.

[Spencer]

How can you best prepare for a conversation like that? Because the way I currently treat it is I sort of spring it on myself. I like, surprise myself almost. I'm like, I can't think about this too much. Like, okay, I'm gonna do this. It's 11am Saturday morning. This is just what. I'm gonna do it now. And so I call all 16 of these landowners.

[Steve Rinella]

You hate it.

[Spencer]

And I rip off the band aid. Usually I get, like, partway into it. It's not so bad then. And I've, like. One thing I've done is I tell myself the worst thing they can do is they say no.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Sure.

[Spencer]

And then one time I went up to a rancher's door, and I knocked on his door to ask for shed hunting permission. His dog bit me, and I had to go. I was way out of date on my rabies shot, so I had to, like, go get her. So actually, the worst thing that could happen to me is I get bit by a dog.

[Steve Rinella]

But you could have sued him and got the whole ranch.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's very true.

[Spencer]

You're right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Maybe that was the same.

[Steve Rinella]

So in the end, it worked out.

[Spencer]

So. So talk about preparing for a hard conversation, like asking for haunting permission.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So what I. I teach for the more difficult conversations is using what I call frame for them. And so there's three parts to it. One is you tell someone what you want to talk about. Two, you tell them how you want to walk away from in the conversation. And three, you get their buy in into that frame. I see this a lot in the business context, of course, where somebody needs to correct a decision. So let's put it in context of maybe y' all had a business meeting here, and you need to correct something that somebody's done. So let's say you're going to have a difficult conversation with Corinne. It could be as simple as, hey, Corinne, I need to talk to you about some comments you made at last. Thursday's meeting and I want to walk away with it with the understanding that we can't talk about that again. Sound good? And then right there, you know exactly what we're talking about, exactly what the walk away is. And then you're getting to their buy in. Now you don't have to worry about, hey, you remember that meeting that we had?

[Steve Rinella]

You've had the whole conversation already.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. So now there's not the anxiety because you're only thinking of what. But when you're in those situations, you're only thinking about what you need to say. You need to be thinking. What's going to help is you think of what they're going to be thinking about because they're going to be thinking, what's going on here? There's new element. What's going on is their fight or flight's going to kick in of how should I handle this new threat? What do you want? Get to the point. That kind of stuff.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, it's like when you're there at the door, Beautiful ranch you got here.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, you're so gorgeous. Is that a new truck?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go.

[Steve Rinella]

And the guy's like, who are you? What's going on?

[Randall]

Am I up to date on my taxes?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the. What's that? Oh, brother. We're out, though. He's shooting the tax man. The kids shooting the tax man. He's like, good boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love frames and they can be used also in the productive sense. So let's, let's say you need, you want to talk to somebody for later today. And you might say, hey, I need to talk to you about the budget for tomorrow's meeting. I'm going to walk away with us being on the same page that work. And then right there you just like, you know, instead of like, hey, you got five minutes and then you're going to lead. And then what typically happens is you go, hey, so I'm thinking, and you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, but. And then you just start kind of wandering and then the other person is going, where is this going? What's the point? And then we have the problem. You see this a lot in relationships. You have the tendency to want to cut in. Oh, you want me to do this? Like, no, no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait, wait. No, that's not it. I need. Because they don't know how to land the plane, so they just kind of talk in circles. So you could put this in the context of needing permission. So if it's, hey, I'd like to talk to you about your ranch and I want to walk away with getting your permission on being able to hunt here. That all right. Like just having that conversation, putting it in a 1, 2, 3 framework. Now you're gonna have to tailor it for whatever is most comfortable for you. But it's a great way of letting them know out at the outset of what's the ask. Because I find that a lot of your property owners, really, anybody, they just want to say, get to the point. They want as little time as possible with you. And so you have a very small window to like, just say, I'd like to talk with you about X. And I would want, like, I can say maybe. And I want to walk away with the feeling, or I want to. That's more in the business sense for you. I want to walk. Ideally, I want to talk with you to walk away with this permission of doing X, Y and Z. Like I'm telling you right now, the goal for the conversation. What's the finish line for that conversation? Because a lot of people will. They start talking and they just. They don't know where they want to land. So saying that up front might help.

[Spencer]

Yeah, a few more notes on that. I. I find that occasionally I've gotten permission because that person was just in a really good mood when I happen to talk to them. Or on the contrary, like, they just got done yelling at their naughty 14 year old and they're in a bad mood when I come ask them for this giant favor. How can I, like, butter them up or get them in a good mood at the offset? So it's, you know, increases my chances by 2% without them thinking you're schmucked.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's right.

[Randall]

Or assuming too much.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

O.

[Randall]

A bad mood.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Let me.

[Steve Rinella]

He's tried, you know, being like, you know, three lawyers walk into a bar, just starting right out, you know, I'd.

[Randall]

Like to talk to you about your warranty. Your extended warranty.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Let me tell you. So I was. This is probably about seven months ago or so, and my wife and I were at Target. Really? She was at Target. I was just there and I know the feeling.

[Steve Rinella]

You were watching her be at Target.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, I was watching her at Target. And while she's at checkout, I really wanted. I wanted some ice cream. I was at Target. I was like, look, if I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna get myself some ice cream. So I went down and got like one of those little bitty small ice creams. They don't have any spoons. I don't know what to do about it. So I'm thinking, and there's a Starbucks inside this Target. And so I go up, I don't want anything at Starbucks. And they don't have just spoons available. And so the lady did not look like she was in a good mood. And so I'm like, all right, here we go. Let's see what we can do. I walk in and I say, I need a miracle. You think you can perform a miracle? And she goes. She immediately brightened. She goes, I just might. I said, I got this ice cream. I don't got a spoon. And without me even asking, she goes, well, I got a spoon you can have. And went, got it and brought it out right there. And I said, well, you just, you can tell everybody you performed a miracle today. And she. I mean, we just got to have that. So it's that element of humor, that levity in it that even if you were to say knock on the door and say, I need a miracle from you, or I mean, even if it's something that's very light hearted, people tend to open up just to have a little bit of fun and. And humor as long as the compliments genuine. Because a lot of the times compliments from someone you're asking something for, they're like, what do you need? What do you want? Oh, yeah, they don't.

[Steve Rinella]

That's what I was joking about. The beautiful. That's the exact joke. It's like, beautiful ranch you got here.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And they're like, what the hell is this guy?

[Corinne]

There's gonna be some rancher somewhere in eastern Montana. It's like, where'd you get that miracle, I need a miracle line? I've heard that 20 times this season.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Randall]

Oh, yeah, that's exactly.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah. With.

[Cat]

With Spencer scenario, when would be the time to bring up, like offering to do work in exchange? Like, because if you're going to throw it right out there that you're looking for permission, when would you say I'd be willing to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, so I would put that right in the frame.

[Cat]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So I would say something along the lines of once you say hello, whatever. I like to talk with you about your. Your beautiful ranch here. And ideally, I love to walk away with a relationship where I work on this property for you in exchange for permission for me to be able to do some hunting that work. And I mean like, that is out of the gate. Right out of the gate. Rather than. And it's not wasting their time. They're not going to get anxious over, like, who's this stranger at my door? And you're saying it right up front. Rather than them going, you know, what do you need? And you're going, I mean, I'll work. I mean, in exchange, I'll do X.

[Cat]

Y, Z. I'm sure they might have said, no. You'd be like, but I'll.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And the thing is, they're already thinking, no. I mean, right out of the gate, before they even answer, open the door, they're thinking, no. I mean, that's just. They're probably not even gonna want to come to the door.

[Cat]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean, how many people. Even when somebody knocks on somebody's door now, it's like, what is this maniac doing here? Like, nobody wants to be at somebody's house anymore.

[Steve Rinella]

Someone knocked on our door last night. I said to my kid, I said.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Said, who in the world? Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I said, peek around the corner. Is it a man or a woman?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. People will just say, no.

[Steve Rinella]

So my wife gets up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I know the dude.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, one of those dudes tried to do solar.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah, we got that the other night, too. All of our dogs started barking. We were like, we're gonna look at the video cameras.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't like to send them out.

[Randall]

Not me. I just don't open. I'm like, come on in.

[Steve Rinella]

I do love it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I do love it. I. When.

[Corinne]

When all the dogs start barking, because then they feel like they have to apologize right out of the gate.

[Steve Rinella]

Sure.

[Corinne]

And you have the upper hand.

[Steve Rinella]

I want to hit you with one that. I know you're, like, the expert, but I want to hit you on one. I just stumbled into contractors.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You got. Something's wrong with your. You got to call a plumber.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You know what I started doing that's just extremely effective. A guy, he calls a plumber. A lot of guys are going to want to, like. Like, puff up a little bit.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

What I've started doing, and it works so good, is to be like, man, when it comes to electrical. I'm a. Yeah, yeah. Like, I look in that mechanical room, dude, All I see is, like, wires and pipes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

They're like, oh, let's get in there and take a look. You know, Because I imagine a lot of guys like, well, you know, I tried X, Y, and Z. And, you know, you know, I could probably figure it out, right? Like, you know, I'm a little busy.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm like, man, I look under that thing, dude, I have no idea what I'm looking at.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's incredibly effective.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, my God.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Because it's good. Because it works. Good. Let me tell you the reason why. It's because if you instantly become the student and they become the teacher, and people love to teach, people love to share their knowledge.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm also not lying. Yeah, well, when I look at my. We have in floor heating, When I look at my mechanical room, I don't know what I'm looking at.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Nate Bargazzi, who I'm a huge fan of, has this bit about when. And people is like, his. His wife is the one who knows all the man knowledge. Let's put, like, he knows. Knows everything. And so she called somebody to fix a water heater, and he opens up and he's like, ha. And the guy's like, I'm here to do your water heater. And he's like, yeah, they're in there, you know, somewhere. Like, he has no idea where it is. So he's always like, I know nothing about it. And so he's always like, oh, yeah, that's. I agree. That's probably. We probably do need a new one. Just replace the whole thing, you know? Like. Yeah, do you have something to sell? Like, it's fantastic. But, yeah, that's an excellent strategy because there's no battle of the ego. Because we have such a feeling of. To have any kind of credibility. I have to feel like, you know, I did this and I tried that, and I did this and I tried that.

[Steve Rinella]

Because dudes feel emasculated.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely.

[Steve Rinella]

But I just emasculate myself.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And that's genius. It's genius to be able to do that. And I mean, the thing is, I think wives pick up on this of like. Like, it takes a really smart guy to be that dumb kind of thing where it's like, no, you're just trying to get out of it. Yeah. Like, I don't know how to fold these clothes. Yeah, you do. Like, you're just not gonna. Hey, I'm not very good at loading the dishwasher. Yeah, you are. It's cool.

[Spencer]

My wife has described it as weaponized incompetent.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There we go. I think she came up with that.

[Spencer]

Term, but she's learned about it, so I love that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I want to also pick up on something, too, of the. How do you kind of break the mold with somebody when you're first trying to ask something from them or really anytime. And this could be for anybody.

[Steve Rinella]

It could be the mold being.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is you say exactly what they're thinking in the reverse way. I want to explain it. So let's say if I was going to tell you something and I said, now, I don't mean this disrespectfully and I say something, how are you going to take it?

[Steve Rinella]

It. You're probably the same way when someone says, I don't want to get political.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm like, please don't.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's so it's that. It's anytime you say, look, it's like.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, yeah, then stop talking.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Because you're getting.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Then don't. Then don't. Yeah. When. Say when somebody says, I don't mean to be rude, and then they say the rudest thing you've ever heard or whatever it is. You know, I don't. I don't mean this to be now.

[Randall]

I don't want to be racist.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Exactly. And then they say the most basic thing. Yeah, exactly. So instead what you do is you flip it. So in other words, when you're coming up to that person, maybe instead of going, look, I don't want to waste your time, what are they thinking? You're wasting my time.

[Spencer]

Yeah, yeah. You're selling them something.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Now instead you say it for them instead of saying it's not that case, when they both know it is, because they're going to. People naturally want to say the reverse of what you're thinking. So instead say, you probably think I'm wasting your time. And then say it.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, I don't like this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, well, that's not the permission aspect.

[Spencer]

And I am. Well, I am wasting your time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, you could say that. Of. Let's say, what if you said like.

[Cat]

Thanks for giving me some of your time or, sorry to bother you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, don't. Because then you're just telling. You're confirming that you're bothering me. I would rather you say it. You probably think I'm here to bother you. You. Okay. And then, then they'll actually listen. Because if you say, I'm sorry to bother you, it's just the opposite. Or if it's. Let's say you and I are in a conversation and you don't really trust me, or you're. I already. I can just tell what I'm doing as I'm labeling what you're not going to like about me. So it may not be leading with that, but it could be something like, look, I know you probably don't trust me, and then you're going to think the opposite. Rather than me saying, I need you to trust me here, you're automatically going to go, nah, I don't trust anything that you say. So when you have the people love to think the opposite. So if I say, you can't do that, what's the first thing you think of? Yeah, I can. So we have this really quick switch of thinking the opposite of whatever you say. So if you say it as if on their behalf now, you probably think I'm. You most likely think X, Y, and Z. Their head goes, no, I don't. You think the opposite of it. It's a really great technique that I. That I like.

[Steve Rinella]

What's the movie where there's a. Is it Mandalorian or something? There's like a dangerous seeming person and. And there's like a point in the movie where they say to a person, you can stay here and die or come with me and live.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I. I hope it's a Mandalorian. I love that show.

[Steve Rinella]

And it's like, you know, and it's sort of presented in a way where the person's like, I'll go with you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Against all. Sort of like, against all visual.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you know what I mean? There's like a, like a surprising way of. Yeah, I don't even know what that is.

[Jefferson Fisher]

As a rhetorical strategy, you're just, you're narrowing the choices. So whenever you can, like, give them a set of threat. Oh, you're just, you're.

[Randall]

I mean, I think the actual line is, I can take you in warm or I can take you in cold.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's it. That's it.

[Steve Rinella]

That's it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. No, you're right. That's what it is.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's so good. What a great line.

[Steve Rinella]

You'd be like, yeah, I'll go warm.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I'll go warm. So anytime you, You. You can give people choices in conversation, they love it. Rather, it's like I say this in the book. When you talk about everything, you talk about nothing. So when you put a frame around the conversation, you actually get very detailed. Instead of coming in and saying, all right, we got a lot to talk about today. Nobody ever feels like you leave the conversation productive, but if you can eliminate to just one thing, you're going to be a whole lot better. But, yeah, that's what comes to mind for me.

[Spencer]

Can you talk about having a hard conversation in person versus over the phone. I find that if I'm looking for permission conditions, it. It takes more, like, more courage for me to go up to somebody's front door and talk to them than call them over the phone. But the outcome is usually better in person. It's harder for them to tell me no when I'm standing in front of.

[Steve Rinella]

Them with a little child.

[Spencer]

Yeah, well, I don't have one of those.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, you can borrow one of mine anytime. Yeah, I got one on crutches right now. You bring that kid, you're not getting up there in them crutches.

[Spencer]

Do you have a wheelchair for him, too?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't want to be manipulative.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Spencer]

Can you talk?

[Corinne]

I'm probably thinking that I'm manipulating you with this small child crutches.

[Steve Rinella]

But he legit had knee surgery.

[Randall]

It's my buddy's kid, and he's dying to talk to you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, going to them always in person's always much better. There's that element of people have a harder time saying no when you're in person than over the phone because you're talking to them. Same reason why people in YouTube comments will say anything, but they never say it in front of you. Yeah, it's a whole. I mean, it's just a whole different level of credibility and humanity to it. And whenever they can see how you look, right. You can go, okay, this person's a genuine person. Or this person doesn't look trustworthy. Maybe it's just how you're dressed. Maybe it's how you're carrying yourself. Maybe it's how you're smiling. Maybe it's. I mean, they just go, I just. I don't know something about you. I just like. And so that element always gets you far because they're already. While you're talking, they are calculating everything about. From your eyes to how you're standing. Is this a person I can trust? And so we. I mean, I'd see that with jurors. I mean, jurors have a. We're humans. We have a sixth sense about us knowing if someone's genuine or not. Like, the worst thing a witness can do on the stand is try and fake sympathy. If they're trying to, like, drum up tears, I mean, the jury will just crucify them. A jury will. Oh, yeah, you'll tank your case quickly. If somebody. If they feel like somebody's faking it, it. You're done. You're done. Because they go, this person's a, A liar. I don't like anything about this person.

[Randall]

I feel like that's got to be good to see. It's got to make you feel good about humanity.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I mean, so when you're getting permissions, don't go up and start crying. Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Right. Yeah, yeah. You know what? Yeah. This remind me of a time I.

[Steve Rinella]

Broke my eyes, got nowhere to look.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're. I, I, I also would think as the landowner, when somebody has the guts to come all that way, drive all that way and come to you face to face. So they would say, you know, I don't care if it's a man or woman, but if that's the term man to man or whatever it is, you know, you come up and talk to me. And that's absolutely. So I did this once. It wasn't hunting, but I needed this location for something with a trout. And this guy owned the property. I talked to him on the phone. He said, no immediate no, no, no. But I waited a week, went to his house, knocked on his door. I wasn't wearing a suit, just wore regular clothes and told him what I was there for. And he goes, yes, that's fine. You can do that. I mean, and nothing really changed. You didn't say that you were the person who called? Yeah, no, no, I didn't say that I was a person who called. But he, I didn't lead with that. But he did ask, are you the one that called? And I said, yeah, I am, but I want to meet you in person. And so that just changed the dynamic. When there's something about a handshake, there's something about, you know, looking somebody in the eye where that sends a different frequency, a different signal of trustworthiness in the conversation. It's easy to say no to a telemarketer or whoever or just not answer the phone. Randall, can you hit him with two of yours? I feel like are on the same wavelength. I like them. This is fun, by the way. This is.

[Corinne]

You have a hunting trip planned.

[Steve Rinella]

I like this one.

[Corinne]

And a friend asks to join you. You don't want them to come either because you want to go alone. You think they'll ruin the experience, or you don't think they'll enjoy the experience. How do you tell them that they can't join you without jeopardizing the relationship?

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's a great question. And this kind of speaks a little bit to the compliment, insult, sandwich a little bit, which I'm looking Forward to discussing. It's this. So where I've seen it gone bad is people lead with the, oh, man, you know, I'd love to. You know, you're my best friend. Oh, you know, I love. And they just. They shower the compliment, they shower the fluff, and then they end it with the word but. That's. That's what happens. I mean, in relationships. I love you. Hey, I love you, but you're driving me crazy. Or, you know, you have a difficult conversation and you say, yeah, you're fantastic. How's everything going? Is good. Listen. And then everything tanks. Like, that's. That's how it happens, is you have that conversation, hey, how's it going? You good? Every family's good. So listen. And then all of a sudden, you know, the whole tenor of the conversation changes. And so, same with the but you're going to break up with somebody. It's. You're so great. You know, I've loved everything we've done together, but. And then they just know. It's tank. What the word but does is delete everything in front of it because it just shows that you didn't really care. It just has a way of just backspace, Backspace, backspace, space. So what I would recommend for this friend, instead of going, oh, man, you know, I'd love for you to come, but instead of that, I would. I tell people to flip it. Start with the no. Now, I wouldn't just leave with no period for your friend. It's your buddy, it's your pal. I like to say things when I'm really uncomfortable about it. Say, I made a promise to myself, because then they can't ever disagree with it. They can't, like, argue with it. If you say, look, I promised myself I was gonna do a solo hunting trip this year. I'd love for you to come on the next one. I'd love for you to come in. It's just not gonna work out this time around.

[Steve Rinella]

That's great.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Simple as that. It's gonna work. Instead of, oh, man, you know, I'd love to. For you to come, but I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna go by myself on this one. Thanks. That's gonna feel a little bit less. Instead of, I say this. It's the same kind of technique when I say, you need to. If it's you who needs to turn down an invitation. So let's flip it. If you need to turn down an invitation. We typically try that.

[Steve Rinella]

Just please, Randall, come with me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right?

[Steve Rinella]

I would love it if you came with me. But he don't want to go.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But he doesn't want to go. Instead of the man, I'd love to, you know, I would, but I, but I can't make it, you know, I got. And what happens is we have the tendency to over explain. You know, I, I love to, but, you know, I got the, I got the dog, you know, and I got a, I got a tree that's growing in the yard. Like we have this make up the dumbest things that we got, you know, it's anything, anything. And everything ends up being like, you know, I got, I'm busy and, you know, life. And I got. You have three tariffs plus my ankles bugging me. It's this economy, you know, as soon as. And there's that tendency, you say so much that the other person just goes, look, if you just didn't want to come, just tell me. It becomes disingenuous in a sense. So what I teach is you start with the no, and then instead of the gratitude, the no, you begin with the no, then end with the gratitude. So instead of a thank you, but I can't, or thank you so much, I'm not going to do it. It lead with the no, I can't make it. I hope it's a wonderful time. I've heard a whole lot of good things about it. Let me know how it goes. Or I can't make it. This go around. I'd love to. Thank you so much for inviting me. That's how it usually goes. We'll say thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me, but I can't make it. Instead, say I can't make it. Thank you so much for thinking of me and inviting me. Means a lot. I hope it's a great time. Like if you can. The same thing. Like if there's a new coffee shop, if you invited me to go with coffee and I couldn't make it and say no, I'd love to, but I can't. It would be as simple as beginning. So let's put it in a framework. Begin with the no. Next is gratitude. Three is if you can sprinkle in some kindness. So that is, I can't make it today. Thank you so much for inviting me. I hope it's a great time, or I heard it's a great place, or, you know, I hope you hope you shoot them straight, whatever it is, that's. That's a much better way to handle it.

[Corinne]

Gotcha.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, my buddy, he used to have, he used to give breaking Up Advice how to break up with people.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Ah.

[Steve Rinella]

I've been out of that game for a long, long time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But was he just, like, pain handling this on the street or like, I.

[Steve Rinella]

Used to work for my buddy Ronnie. So he would tell the guy. So. So Ronnie, like, a lot of guys would work for Ronnie. And at the age when we worked for Ronnie was when you were, you know, 18, 19, 20, whatever. And so he would be irritated with these guys that would be in these relationships, and they're together. Broke up together. Broke up. So he had, like, this school of thought on breakups. I love that he didn't. Like. He would advise. When you break up with someone, you can never give the idea that there's something they could do to improve things.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

It's just not working out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's so true.

[Steve Rinella]

We just don't.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's so true.

[Steve Rinella]

Ronnie would say it's this. He would. He would advise you to go say, this has nothing to do with you. This is just entirely me. We're done.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Do you like that?

[Steve Rinella]

That was what he advised. Because he's like, anytime you go, go. Well, it's just. I feel. Well, it's. It's, you know, you're creating a thing like, well, maybe if I change.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

To relate. Yeah. And it's just like, it. It really has nothing to do with you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. This is my.

[Steve Rinella]

It's just me. I like, we're done.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So this is the category I put this in on, having a sensitive conversation. It's a little bit different, because most of the time in sensitive conversations, let's say you need to fire somebody, let them go. Let's say you need to break up. I mean, that's essentially what that is. We have the tendency to begin with the small talk of, let's say you need to let somebody go. They sit down in your office, and he goes, so, how are you doing? Everything good? How's your mom? I saw y' all went fishing the other day. Y' all did any good?

[Steve Rinella]

Where exactly were you? Fishing?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then. And then you turn it. Then you go, so listen. And they know. Okay. It's the worst. Something's coming. This is terrible. The worst thing ever. Or the same thing with the. If you're having a conversation with your girlfriend and go, I've really enjoyed being together. All of a sudden you're talking to past tense, right? All of a sudden you're in past tense, and they're like, oh, what's happening? Hey, I think you're so great. You know, I've really loved what. And they're just waiting for it the whole entire time. And it's.

[Steve Rinella]

I really enjoy being together.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then it's like, it's not you, it's me.

[Randall]

You remember that time?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

That we were together.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

That would give me a sinking feeling if my wife was like, you know, I've enjoyed our time together, but no reason to think we're not going to continue, though, Craig.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. You know, whenever you say, like, you know, I think the world of you, like, that kind of stuff. That kind of stuff is like, they know something is coming. Instead. When it's. Instead of using that fluff language, you tell them, this is going to be difficult, and you can apply this for anything. And you. This is. So instead of the fluffy, you begin with something that sounds like, this is gonna be a hard conversation, or it can be as simple as, this is gonna be a difficult conversation, or you're gonna say, you're not gonna like what I have to say.

[Cat]

What about the one like your old man used to give you? Like, this is gonna hurt you more than it's gonna hurt me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. It's always a lie. It's always a lie. But even if you said something like, you're not gonna like what I have to say, or this is gonna come as a surprise to you, or this isn't going to be fun to discuss, whatever that is, that is what you're doing is preparing them, like, readying them for that conversation. Because if I sat you down and we're going to have a talk, and I said, corinne, you're not going to like what I have to say, and you're going to kind of like, ready yourself to be like, okay. Like, that's how your brain first is going to say, okay, and then you're going to deliver the pitch.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't like their shoes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah. Whatever it is. But that's how it would say, so let's say we needed to break up or something. You'd say, look, Krin, this is gonna. Or I could put it on me. I'm having a hard time. I would put it as, I don't like this conversation, or I've been really dreading this conversation. Something as simple as that, like, showing a little bit of vulnerability of I've really been dreading this conversation we're about to have, or I'm not gonna like this conversation, whatever that is. And then the next thing out of your mouth is, we need to. It's time we need to break up. Blah, blah, blah. Or let's say you need to let them go some time.

[Steve Rinella]

We just need to take some time, slow things down.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. That kind of stuff is. That can be painful. So instead of the let's say if I need to fire you, you come in, say, this might come as a shock to you. I need to let you go. You've been a fantastic. Now I'm giving the compliment.

[Steve Rinella]

Just hit him right in the nuts.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah. But see, now I'm giving the compliment. Now I'm giving the compliment of you've been a great part of the team. Loved having you. I'm looking forward to after that. Yes. Now you're kind of like trying to show. Because now it's genuine. Now it's genuine. Instead of the. Instead of you being nervous, Instead of you being nervous. Instead of you saying, and you're such a great part of the team. You know, we really. And now they're thinking, where's this going. Where's this going when you lead with the car. Exactly. Exactly. But everybody's always waiting for the. But they're waiting for the down. They're always thinking the worst. So if you lead with the. This is going to be a difficult conversation. I need to let you go. You've been an awesome part of the team, and I look forward to where you go in your career. It's just not going to be here. I mean, that kind of thing is way more credibility.

[Steve Rinella]

I like that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Or even if you lead with like. Yeah. And I look forward to helping you, you know, move forward and wherever you're going to be in your career, if you feel like this is somebody you really enjoyed and you really do wish the best for them, because it's. Because then they'll start switching the conversation to where they go next. What happens next. Rather than complaining about the present and saying, what's wrong with me? Me? What could I have done better? You're saying the decision's been done. And even if I say no, this is a me decision. So that. That's. That's kind of like the.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

What Ronnie was saying. It's Ronnie, right. Of saying the. This is. This is. This is a me thing. It's all me. I wish I had something to fire.

[Steve Rinella]

Clean it up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right now.

[Randall]

That doesn't subscribe to your Instagram channel.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah. So he could have finessed that a little.

[Steve Rinella]

What. What I'm picking up about what you're talking about, and I don't know if you frame it this way in your Book. But a lot of it is people think of conversations a lot of times where they're living and they're trying to jump in the other person's head.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But a lot of what you're saying would kind of. It almost makes it easier for the deliverer.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, I could picture if you're dreading firing somebody.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right, right.

[Steve Rinella]

It's terrible. Like, I've had this. It's terrible.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Terrible. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

If you just came and then you're doing the. Well, how's this? How's that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's all for you.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. If you just said, like, I have some bad. I have some. Some bad news to deliver to you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

All of a sudden you're probably going, dude, I did it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And then everything else becomes downhill, easier because what you're doing when you're trying to lead with before you. Because the whole conversation is bad news and you're just putting a label on the whole thing. So if I were to sit down and you sit down and go, I got bad news. Like, my team, I have a very small team, but if anything's going on, what they do with me that I've asked for, they say, you're not going to like what I'm about to say. That's what they say. So I'll pick up the phone and the first thing they'll say is, Jefferson, you're not going to like what I have to say. Or they'll say, you're not going to like this. That's what they'll do. They'll say, you're not going to like this. And I'll always go, okay, I'm ready. And whatever I'm thinking of is not as bad as what they say. I always think to the worst possible scenario. So that's a. When they pick up the phone and say, you're not gonna like this, I'll go, ready? I mean, that's typically how I handle it. But yeah, it's much kinder on the other person. So in terms of let's talk benefits, it's much kinder on the other person because they're not getting this. Where are we going with this? I'm getting anxious. They feel the hammer being dropped. You're getting straight to the point. So a lot of the ways that clarity is kindness, being direct can be a lot of a relief. And it's much better on you because instead of looking at this big hill I gotta get over. I'm. I'm. Use the front door. That's what it's there for.

[Cat]

That's kind of a lot different than the. The duck blind, bad collar thing, because you could use it on the bad collar, too.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. You're not gonna like what I have to say. Yeah, you could. Yeah, you could. You certainly could. You may not want to do that in the blind with them while you're trying to call, but. Yeah.

[Randall]

The line in that scenario I've always used is, now's not the time to practice.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's a great one. That's a great one. Yeah.

[Randall]

Today we're here to kill stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Practice.

[Steve Rinella]

I want to hear with a very quick one. It's a life or death one. Muzzle control. Someone's practicing. Bad muzzle control. You just. Right. How do you hit them? You just got to hit them, right?

[Randall]

Oh, you use the front door on that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have a. I had a trial coach in law school. He would. The whole point would be, instead of just trying to say things, hope the jury figures it out, and say, use the front door. That's what it's there for. And so it's that kind of mentality when you're talking about life or death, when you're talking about, we could really injure somebody, you be direct as you can. There's no sugar coating. There's no. I really care so much about your feelings. This is. We're saving lives.

[Steve Rinella]

You know? I love you, man.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You know I love hanging out with you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

It's great to have you here, you know, but.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, sometimes I notice your Muslim at my forehead.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

[Randall]

It's currently aimed at my ankle, and I don't like that either, but.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely some times for true conversation, but when you're out in the field like that. Yeah. Sometimes you just gotta. You gotta lay it out because it's. It's either that or your ankle. It's kind of the mandalorian who's got.

[Steve Rinella]

This one that's in purple right now.

[Randall]

Do you ever run across trial attorneys where you're like, now's not. Not the time to practice here. Go get. Go get yourself a coach.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Are you talking about, like, in trial, in courtroom with her? I mean, typically not, because you have, like, a first chair, a second chair. There's kind of a hierarchy. I. I like going to trials by myself at the table because I don't want the jury thinking that I have, like, a huge team, so I will only bring one paralegal, and they'll sit in the back. I don't have, like, a whole. And I Carry my own boxes. I don't have, though others have, like, a paralegal brings in, like, all their boxes, and they're the ones that they think that they're like the talent. They have to sit at the table and everybody else bring them snacks and stuff anyway. Yeah, I probably. Probably not. Not in the trial sense, but there are times in it, let's say in a deposition, and they'll try and slide you questions that you think you should ask. And sometimes they're valuable. But I've had it where I've had, like, a very new associate where I read the first one and it was like an absolute horrible question. Like, it was. I was like, absolutely not. I'm not gonna. Because I know in my head if I ask that that's what's gonna happen. He doesn't have that knowledge yet. So instead he might just pass it. And without looking, I just pass it back. You know, it's like. We'll talk about it in a break. Let me use that as a teaching moment. But I like that your head's thinking. I like that you're. You're. You're trying to. It's like that. I like that you're trying to practice. I like that you're trying to be part of what we're doing. Now's not the time.

[Steve Rinella]

Let's do one more. Because it is a good one. Randall, you're. You're one about money.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yes.

[Corinne]

You would like to spend, or may have already spent an excessive amount of money on a trip or piece of gear. How do you rationalize it to your partner or to a friend?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Corinne]

Like, sometimes you have, like, a stupid purchase and people are like, wow, you spent money on that? Or whatever. I mean, I feel like this is one of the awkward conversations that, that you run into now. It's like, how do you build a case for something that is valuable to you, but maybe not to other people?

[Randall]

Oh, yeah. Sometimes you have, like a friend and you know all about them.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Them.

[Randall]

And all of a sudden they show up with a brand new truck and you're like, God, I hope somebody died.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Randall]

You can't have. You shouldn't be getting a new truck. Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. It's like the last thing they should be doing. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

If you're talking about in a relationship, when you pull your money and you gotta go buy something, you can't. You don't want to. You just don't want to be bothered trying to explain why you had to buy it.

[Cat]

I don't know if it's A big expense, and you're. You're, like, springing it on them afterwards.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, that's where we're here to ask the expert.

[Spencer]

And to add context, we've. We pulled our audience. Audience before 500 listeners asked a question. Have you ever lied to a significant other about the price of gear? And it was over 70% of them have lied to a significant other.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They probably lied on that, too. They probably. Yeah, it's probably like 90 bucks.

[Steve Rinella]

I've obfuscated the price of beer.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Spencer]

Rather than general, you were, like, massaging the truth.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Corinne]

I'll never say it was like. I'll be like, oh, it was about 200. $289.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you find, like. I feel like the conversation's a little different when it's a spouse or a significant other versus just a partner.

[Steve Rinella]

You don't mean business partner?

[Corinne]

No, I mean partner.

[Steve Rinella]

Partner.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Randall]

I was present at the. The return of an item that I had no interest in. Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Randall's.

[Randall]

No, no, no. Of course. My girlfriend.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Randall]

And. And we. We don't pool money. But I. I started laughing, and I was like, that's how much that cost.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

And, you know, it was a guy executing the exchange, and he's like, you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Didn'T tell him about this? Yeah. That's hilarious. My girlfriend was like, it's not his money. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's a fair point.

[Randall]

Funny.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, I mean, like, so what comes to mind for me is. Yeah, if you're pooling money, there's a very big difference. If they just all of a sudden show up with, you know, $1,000 worth of hunting. I feel like clothes are so expensive now that you don't at least have that conversation about it. Now, to me, a lot of it is it's none of their business if it's a partner. I. I'm. I'm going to want to have that conversation, if you can, beforehand. Unless you're. Unless you're just. Unless you're okay with having the fight about it later.

[Corinne]

I'm wondering how to set myself up for success in those types of conversations.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Randall]

You come across a hot deal.

[Steve Rinella]

He's trying to keep the relationship together. Yeah. He's trying to keep relationships together. You're trying to get what you want.

[Corinne]

Yeah. I don't want to say, like, hey, I know this is really stupid, okay, but there's this guy.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Do you see how he did that? You see how he did that? I know this is really stupid, but.

[Corinne]

Yeah, see that's what I'm wondering. I mean now my instincts, you've turned my head on all my instincts in these types of conversations where I'll over explain the benefits of going on said trip or purchasing said item. How do we set ourselves up for success? I like the idea of argue less, talk more, but I'd also like to win.

[Randall]

Yeah. You know, buy more.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

I'm going to tell you about a gun that I'd like and we're going to walk away from this conversation with you understanding that I should get this.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, we're going to walk away from this conversation with me owning that gun.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's probably not exactly what he teaches. Yeah, it's a little different. It's slightly different. Yeah. Like I think there's also. So what I have seen work is as one is whether or not you give the permission to even buy the purchase. Because if you feel like you have to get permission, then you feel like you have to hold court on whether it is or not worth your time is or not worth your. And then you have to feel like you're over explaining. And then we get frustrated having to justify a world that they don't understand. And so instead of the hey, so I'm hoping to buy, I would switch it to I'm going to buy. And that sounds a lot more definite of hey, I'm gonna go buy a rifle. And also this is this element too of. And this applies to a lot of different contexts. But I say when it comes to giving your case on something, don't be a waterfall, be a well meaning. Instead of feeling like I have to anticipate all of your questions and I have to go ahead and fend off every arrow you're gonna send, shoot my way. And I have to just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is only going to guarantee you're going to get a lot more questions about it. Be well meaning they're going to have to ask a question. You'd be very short. They're going to have to ask a question. I do this with depositions, so I train my witnesses to make the attorney ask the question. So don't just try and guess where they're going with their questioning, don't try and give them more. The longer of an answer you give, you're guaranteed to get more questions, period. It's the same thing with asking anybody for anything. So if you're just gonna say, hey, I'm going out to purchase this gun, need us for this, whatever Trip, don't try and anticipate the question. Just allow them to ask.

[Steve Rinella]

What if you come in and you act like you're mad about it? Damn it, I gotta buy a brand new rifle.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's probably really good technique. Yeah, yeah. It's like, ah, I gotta do this. Like, then you act like it's a big inconvenience and they're like, oh, it'll be okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Sweet. Just pick a good one.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's true. You can. You could. You could try and do that and get them on your side. No, go get you a good one.

[Steve Rinella]

Don't get the opportunity of a lifetime.

[Randall]

Here and it's pre cited in. Does that exist?

[Spencer]

Yeah, you could try crying, Randall, if that doesn't work.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You have a kid with a cast.

[Cat]

What about getting to the friends part? Like, do you even gotta justify that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Like, Like. No, no. I mean, no, no.

[Cat]

Like I. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No.

[Corinne]

I don't know. I just. I was just trying not to make it about my marriage.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. Yeah. You know, so what would happen? My grandfather would say this a little bit. Yeah. My grandfather would use this line. He'd say, it found its way to me. That's what he'd say. Hey, go. I just. It's found its way to me. Like, that's like. He just. He went out and bought way too many fishing rods or whatever it is, lures he didn't need. I remember he came in with like a huge. He learned about like, ah, he could buy in bulk. And so we had these lures called Slugos. And when they first came out and he goes. First thing he said was, ah, they just. They found their way to me, you know, like that's the way he would say.

[Steve Rinella]

Fuck you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. And we're like, oh, okay. All right.

[Steve Rinella]

And we're gonna wrap it up. But everybody check out the next conversation. I'm. You know how I said didn't read it? Yeah, I'm gonna read it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, awesome. Thanks, man.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, I'm not lying. It sits on my bed. It sits on my stack.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Everybody at the office should read that book. Yeah. Thank you, man. Y. Or half the office.

[Steve Rinella]

You're waiting behind. You're in line behind a book about Jaguars.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh.

[Steve Rinella]

And a book about Kate. Buffalo.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh. All right.

[Steve Rinella]

This comes up this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'm honored.

[Steve Rinella]

The next conversation. Argue less, talk more. Jefferson Fisher.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks, man.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep. Learn how to get all kind of permissions, all kind of guns.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There you go. Looking for how to get on public land.

[Spencer]

I really respect. Goodreads ratings, your book has a 4.62. That's outstanding ending, awesome. It's hard to find a book above.

[Steve Rinella]

4.5, so really fantastic. Congratulations.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[Steve Rinella]

Ladies and gentlemen, Jefferson Fisher. Thanks for coming on.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks, man. Thank you.

[Steve Rinella]

I've been running FHF Binyo harnesses for over a decade, and for the last couple years, it has been the FOB because it's quiet, it's tough, and it just plain works. And it's easy to work. I've worn it in damn near every environment you can think of. Desert, mountains, snow, heat. And it has never let me down. Now they made it even better. They got new colors, more modularity. And like everything FHF makes, it's built right here in the usa. This is gear you can count on season after season. Pick up yours now@fhf gear.com you're listening to an iHeart podcast.