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- [00:00]
Randall Williams
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Steve Rinella
You ever drive past a piece of land and wonder who owns that? Or maybe you need to know where exactly a property line runs. Well, that is where Onx Hunt comes in. And it's not just for hunters. There are folks using Onx for their jobs every day throughout the country. If you need the best land ownership maps, aerial imagery and property boundaries in your pocket, Onx Hunt is the tool for the job. Try it free for 7 days. Download onx hunt in the app or Google Play store or visit on xmaps.com hunt to get started.
- [00:40]
Unknown
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- [01:40]
Steve Rinella
Steve Rinella Here the American west with Dan Flores is a new podcast production on the Meat Eater Podcast Network. It's hosted by author and historian Dan Flores, who happens to be mine and our own Dr. Randall's former professor. By focusing on deep time wild animals, native peoples in the West's unique environments, Flores will challenge your understanding of the American west and he will help to explain why it is the way it is today. I count Dan Flores as a friend. We do not agree on everything, but he has had a massive impact on my understanding of American history and I invite you to get challenged by him in the same way that I have. Catch the premiere of the American west with Dan flores on Tuesday, May 6th on the meat Eater Podcast Network. Subscribe to the American west with Dan Flores On Apple, Spotify, iHeart or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Dan and it will stretch your brain all out and I mean that in a very good way.
- [02:59]
Randall Williams
Smell us now lady.
- [03:01]
Unknown
Welcome to Meat Eater Trivia Meat Eater.
- [03:05]
Tony Peterson
Podcast welcome to Meat Eater radio live. It's 11:00am Mountain Time. That's 8:00pm for our friends in Luko Finland on Thursday, May 15th. And we are live from Meat Eater HQ in Bozeman, Montana. I'm your host, Randall Williams, and I'm joined today by Tony Peterson and Lake Pickle. On today's show, we're talking dogs, the beloved species, AKA man's best friend, as well as the food variety. Of course, I'm referring to hot dogs. Geez, geez. This is a good script. First we'll interview dog trainer extraordinaire, Jordan Horak. And then we'll play a little game. We recoined the Price is Right. We recoined that.
- [04:06]
Randall Williams
I know, I don't think we recoined anything we should have recovered. I think we just stole that outright.
- [04:10]
Tony Peterson
Followed by a highly requested return of the Meat Eater Movie Club where we'll be discussing the children's classic where the Red Fern Grows. And after that, we'll talk with Professor Monty Legerne about ticks and tick prevention in our dogs. And finally, we will do a throwback Thursday with some memories with some of our four legged best friends. But first, Tony Lake. Great to have you fellas in the studio. What brings you to town this week?
- [04:40]
Lake Pickle
Let me go first.
- [04:41]
Unknown
Go first. Go ahead.
- [04:41]
Lake Pickle
All right, well, dog week, I mean, I've been. I have the Houndation's podcast on Cal's feed, which is all about dogs. We've been writing dog articles and dropping them on the site. I have a new rooster film if you like. Watching public land roosters get crunched by an adorable black lab beautiful. And me. You can check that out at the Meat Eater site. But yeah, we are just celebrating dogs. We finally did an end around. I actually did the end around on Steve Rinella who was a cat guy, big cat guy and went right to the.
- [05:13]
Tony Peterson
Everybody's saying that, right?
- [05:14]
Lake Pickle
Well, because it's true.
- [05:15]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [05:15]
Lake Pickle
Yes. This is not a rumor I started. This is just known around the office. But I did an end around, end around on Steve went to our CEO and I said, hey man, everybody here loves dogs but Steve. Can we finally do something for the company instead of just catering to him? And he said fine. And so now we have dog week and we are going to be cranking out dog content from here on out. It's a new category at Meat Eater.
- [05:37]
Tony Peterson
Well done. Well done. And you know who else loves dogs? The people. The people love dogs.
- [05:43]
Lake Pickle
Almost everyone.
- [05:44]
Tony Peterson
Yes, that's right.
- [05:45]
Lake Pickle
Hot dogs and the furry kind.
- [05:47]
Unknown
Indeed, both of them. Yeah. So my reason for being up here is twofold. The first one is I'm working on a new Podcast that'll go on the bear grease feed that I'm super excited about going to be called Backwoods University. And also when we scheduled the time to come up here, I knew that May it was still turkey season in Montana. I don't know how you feel about turkey out in Randall, but I, I love it a whole lot. So I hit up Max Barda, who's I've been buddies with for a while. I was like, hey man, since I'm going to be up there. And so we snuck out Monday and managed to get a turkey. So it's been a great week.
- [06:21]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, I, I asked Max Barter to take me turkey hunting and now he's taken two out of town visitors turkey hunting successfully in the past seven days. And I'm left wondering what, what Max really thinks of me. If there's anything there.
- [06:38]
Randall Williams
Max, if you're watching the show, go ahead and call in. We'll go ahead and we can talk to you live here.
- [06:42]
Lake Pickle
Randall, I would just like to say that Max invited me to turkey hunt this week as well.
- [06:46]
Tony Peterson
Are you serious?
- [06:46]
Unknown
He did.
- [06:47]
Lake Pickle
100% serious.
- [06:48]
Tony Peterson
I will say he did. He did invite me to turkey hunt Monday afternoon, I believe after you killed your bird. He said, do you still want to go turkey hunting? How about tomorrow? And I said sure. And he said, the weather looks bad, we'll have to make a call on it. And then two hours later he texted me and said the weather is too bad, we shouldn't go. So Max did make an effort, right? Although at that point the forecast, it was, I don't know how wholehearted it was.
- [07:15]
Unknown
I gotta go. In his defense, seeing as like he was huge part in me getting said turkey. When we were driving back and the weather was still pretty, he was like, wonder if Randall will wanna go tomorrow. I was like, ask him because, well, breaking news.
- [07:27]
Randall Williams
If you wanna direct your attention to the screen.
- [07:29]
Tony Peterson
I know, yeah, I would like to. Max kind of gets a bad rap.
- [07:34]
Randall Williams
For the audio listeners. Max chimed in in the live chat. He says, hey Randall, I was going to take you Tuesday, but it rained.
- [07:40]
Tony Peterson
All cats and I'm just having fun with you. Max, he did, I have that. He will take me turkey hunting and we will get a bird. 15 days left of the season, not that anyone's counting. So. Yeah, well, it's wonderful to have you guys here both your first times on Radio Live.
- [07:59]
Lake Pickle
I actually was a guest on Radio Live once.
- [08:02]
Tony Peterson
Call in, that doesn't count. So until you sit in this chair, you don't know what it feels like, well, gentlemen, I think it's time we move on to our first interview of the day. Joining us is professional dog trainer and the owner of Cato Outdoors, Mr. Jordan Horak. Jordan, thanks for joining us. Hey, guys.
- [08:25]
Unknown
I thought this was turning into a turkey episode here for a second.
- [08:29]
Tony Peterson
Not on my watch. Not on my watch.
- [08:31]
Unknown
It sounded like it for, like, three minutes.
- [08:33]
Tony Peterson
Yep. Yeah. Everybody's talking about turkeys, but we're here for dogs.
- [08:38]
Unknown
Yeah. Good, good.
- [08:41]
Tony Peterson
First off, what is the most important thing you can do with a puppy during the first week after you bring it home?
- [08:48]
Unknown
Yeah. All right, so. So here's. Here's the deal. Like, dogs are weird because everybody wants to turn them into, like, a computer or something that's really absolute and say, like, okay, there's one right way to. To train a dog or to treat that dog in the first week. And in my experience, like, just like kids, like, every dog is very different, so everyone's going to need a little bit of a different approach maybe, and. And there's going to be people that have different ideas. And that's all great because this is really a subjective thing, training dogs. But in my opinion, when I bring a dog home, my natural urge is to start training it right away. Like, I want it to be a great dog, so I want to teach it to sit and throw a bunch of retrieves and, like, start training and all these things. And in my experience, that's like, the worst thing you can do because that dog is going through, like, a really big fear stage when you bring it to your house. Like, it's. You're a new person and you know they can't speak English. So nobody explained to that dog, like, hey, you're going to this new person's house and they really love you. And, like, they don't know any of those things. So you have to show them, I think in that first week that, like, hey, I'm somebody you want to hang out with. Like, we're going to have good times, but requirements are really, really low right now, so I'm going to do a lot of giving that puppy treats out of my hand. I'm going to get down on the floor with it, play with it, maybe get to get it to play a little bit of tug with me. But I'm really just looking at building that relationship for the first week. And really, like, the first few months, that's going to be the main focus. There's going to be a few things. Of course, we're going to have to teach it right away. Like one of those would be, don't pee on the floor. Go in the crate. Be quiet in the crate. Don't bite me. Like, you can't, you know, you can't chew on my hands like puppies like to do. So of course we're going to work on those things, but my primary thing for the first even few weeks is, hey, let's, let's just get to be buddies and, like, get ready for the long road, because this is, this is a marathon. We got plenty of time to teach skills later on.
- [10:46]
Lake Pickle
So, Jordan, I know. Let's, let's move past the first week here right now and just building that trust and making that, that puppy comfortable. I know you're a big confidence guy. I think you like to challenge dogs and help them build confidence. So when you talk about, you know, dogs being individuals, which they are, you kind of got to cater to a lot of your training style, to that individual dog, the personality drive, all that stuff. But there is sort of a ubiquitous, across the board need for confidence in dogs. And I know that you take puppies, you know, from eight weeks on, and that's, that's like top of mind for you. Can you kind of give us like a 30,000 foot view on how you look at puppies and go, I want to, I want to start creating a confident dog?
- [11:28]
Unknown
Yeah. So a lot of people think that building a confident dog means, like, throwing it into all these weird situations. So they bring this new puppy home and they take it to the pet store and they take it to their friends, and they take it to the dog park and all these places. And I don't think that that makes a confident puppy because that's just a lot of confusion and a lot of uncontrolled environment. Bad things can happen. So I look at building confidence at actually, like, creating a predictable environment with a predictable outcome. So I'm not traveling them or taking them all over the place. I'm just trying to throw things at them at home. So one thing I did with a recent litter, and if your listeners want to go check it out, I think it's pretty cool. And it's like the only thing I've ever done that's gone viral on social media. So go watch it. But I created an obstacle course for a recent litter of springer puppies that I did. And we started out just like with one obstacle within this course. They just had to go around one wall and we put the puppy or we put the food down at the end and then we put the puppies down behind this wall, and all they had to do is go around it. And they were like, they were panicking. They were crying. They're trying to climb out the edge. Like, they had no idea what to do. And, like, their confidence was kind of shattered. A lot of people, the tendency would be like, oh, look at the poor things. Like, they need help. And, you know, they would go and intervene. And really, like, that intervention is not going to help them build confidence. So we. I say we. It was my. My kids and I were, like, doing the science experiment, basically behavior science. We. We just sit there and watch them, and pretty soon one of them, like, stuck its head around the wall, like, oh, look, I can kind of go this way. And all of a sudden, they all. They all ran around the corner, and they're eating food. The next time we did that, we dropped them in there, didn't say anything, put the food down, and all nine of the puppies just ran around the corner. And then we progressively started to add more and more complex obstacles to that obstacle course. And it was really cool to see the puppies, like, their mindset changed from when they first went in there, where it was like, I don't know what to do. I just give up. By the end, they were like, I know what to do. Doesn't matter what you put in front of me. I'm going to go through it. And I think, like, the obstacle course was a really, like, vivid example of learning and overcoming a challenge. I think for a hunting dog, there's a lot of other things that come up in life, like, for instance, a long retrieve or going into really heavy cover or getting into a boat or even, like, hopping in a dog trailer. Like, there's lots of challenges or obstacles that they're going to encounter. I think starting really, really small with something that they can have an easy outcome with. Like, for us, it was just go around one wall. I think that's really important rather than just throwing them into hard things right at the start. Because really, like, for people and for animals, we gain confidence through success. We don't gain confidence through failure. So if we put them into something where they're going to fail and be overwhelmed like that, that only, like, suppresses confidence. So. So I like to think of it as, like, give them the challenge that's. That's easily surmountable. Make sure that there's a reward at the end. Like, you can't just, like, throw them in the obstacle course and, like, hey, like, figure this out. And when you get to the end, like, we'll do it again or there's nothing there. Like they have to have a motivation or a reason. With a puppy, that motivation often is going to be a treat. As they get older, that motivation might be the retrieve. So I can give a dog a really, really hard retrieve and they've got to go out there and problem solve and they've got to show courage and like go through this creek and over this berm and through these, you know, chest high cattails and whatever. But they know that at the end there's that reward of like finding the bird or finding the bumper, but that all. It doesn't start there. Like that's the end product. So starting really, really small, controlled environment, something that I know they're going to be successful in with a very clear reward at the end.
- [15:30]
Lake Pickle
Yeah. And you view this as, you know, the confidence thing is huge. But you also look at this as like you're conditioning those dogs to be problem solvers, which we think about training and we look at it and go, I want my dog to do this kind of retrieve perfectly every time. Because that's a behavior. I. But then you take that hunting dog out into the field and you're like, you have to solve a series of problems in every environment. You know, we knock this rooster down here, that greenhead there. So you're actually teaching those puppies to problem solve at 8, 9, 10 weeks old.
- [16:01]
Unknown
Yeah. And I think I maybe like problem solving and confidence are two different things, but I think they're inseparable here as well. Like if you have a really confident dog, it's going to go out and like figure out a way to do it right. It's going to solve the problem. If you have a dog that's insecure and like, doesn't want to do anything, like, yeah, it's going to fail. But yes, Tony, I, I think even like training could be like training a new thing could be a problem that they have to solve.
- [16:31]
Randall Williams
Right.
- [16:31]
Unknown
Like, like sitting. We think of sitting as being really simple, but really like, if I'm holding a treat and wanting that dog to do a behavior like technically they have a problem they have to solve, they want the treat, they don't know what that behavior is. So yeah, with an eight or nine week old puppy, like they can start learning to solve the problem of like, hey, why are you just standing there looking at me with that treat? What do I have to do? The buck goes down, they get the treat. Oh, I think I might have a solution to this problem. So as they learn to Start offering behaviors and trying new things to solve problems like correct. Those things get more and more complex as they get older. Or the requirements or the ask.
- [17:13]
Lake Pickle
For sure. Can we switch gears here, quick? So you are those puppies you were talking about, that litter that you built a little obstacle course for? Those are springers. You are known for being an English cocker guy. Why?
- [17:25]
Unknown
Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I don't. I. So I've actually owned like eight or nine springers. I. I posted these. These videos of these springers, and everybody said, why did you get a springer? And, like, I've had quite a few of them, but cockers, I've. I won the Open Nationals in 2018. I won the amateur nationals, and then I won the Open nationals, so. And then I won the open with a dog named Cato. And then I started Cato Outdoors off right after that. So everybody think for sure I've owned more cockers, and I've had success in trials with cockers. So that's why I guess I get associated with them. And I do love that breed. And I have way more cockers than I have springers at this point.
- [18:05]
Lake Pickle
Yeah, but there had to be a reason why you went to them first, and then you just kind of. You kind of glossed over this. But you went and won huge championships with them. What was it? What's it. What is it about them?
- [18:16]
Unknown
So I. I got done with school, and I was living in a little apartment with my wife, and I wanted another hunting dog because the one, my childhood dog, had died. And I'm a really impulsive person, if nothing else. I read a magazine article and somebody mentioned a cocker spaniel and. And that they were little and that you could pheasant hunt with them. And I thought, oh, I'm gonna. So I, like, I think Google had, like, just come out. So I did a quick search and found a guy two hours away, and I drove up and got a puppy from him. And I always say, like, I. I got a cocker, like, for the small hunting dog. And I stayed with Cockers because of the small hunting dog that also has a big personality. Like, they're spaniels are, like, really, really typically people oriented, like, almost to a fault. Like, you can't go in the bathroom without the dog, like, sitting outside the door. Like, hey, when are you gonna come back out to play with me? So they're. They're really, really sociable. Like, they want to, like, make this connection with you. Like, you'll see their face like the ears kind of drop and they're just like trying to like, hey, how do I crawl inside your brain and understand you? And I, I really like that about them. They're smart, really smart dog. And the, the small size is like, it's conducive to living in town or to traveling. And they can still do the things that a big dog can do.
- [19:29]
Tony Peterson
Well, I'm a lab guy myself, but I'm sorry, the size thing occasionally does seem appealing. Jordan, thanks so much for joining us today. Great to meet you. And when I get a new puppy here maybe in the next year, maybe I'll give you a call, get some tips.
- [19:46]
Unknown
Yeah, give me a call or stop by.
- [19:47]
Tony Peterson
Wonderful.
- [19:48]
Unknown
Meet you in person.
- [19:48]
Tony Peterson
Thanks, Jordan.
- [19:49]
Unknown
All right. Thanks, guys. Yep.
- [19:53]
Tony Peterson
He knows a lot about dogs.
- [19:55]
Phil
He.
- [19:56]
Lake Pickle
So I'll give you a quick antidote, anecdote here. Have you ever read all the Pretty Horses?
- [20:02]
Tony Peterson
Oh, yeah.
- [20:03]
Lake Pickle
Cormac McCarthy. So the, the lead guy there, John Grady Cole, he leans down and talks to horses. So they, he comments on this or, you know, this is, this is sort of a central theme throughout that book where it's like you don't know what he's saying to the horse, but he can break a horse better than anyone. And he's got away with him. And he leans down and he says something, the conversation between him and the horse. I met Jordan six years ago at an event and he was, he would do that with his dogs. So they're performing in front of a whole bunch of people and he leans down, he says something to him. And so I'm like, I, I've read about that behavior before. He's got away with them, man.
- [20:41]
Tony Peterson
Our vet, when we first met, our new vet when we moved to Livingston, he opened the door and got in and just got down on the floor and started crawling around with the dogs. And then he sort of realized what he was doing and said, oh, hey, and introduced himself to us. But I thought, actually that's how I know you're real.
- [20:58]
Lake Pickle
Yep.
- [20:59]
Tony Peterson
Yep. Well, Phil, our next segment is the Price is Right, presented by our friends at Shields.
- [21:08]
Randall Williams
Here it comes from Bozeman, Montana, Meat eater radio's most exciting 10 minutes. It's the Price is Right.
- [21:14]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [21:16]
Randall Williams
Tony Peterson, come on down. Lake Pickle, come on down. You're the next two contestants on meat eater radios. The Price is Right Dog Week edition, presented by Shihlz.
- [21:32]
Tony Peterson
This game is really simple. Now Phil's going to tell you about a product from the meat eater universe, and you're going to need to guess its price. The player with the closest answer without going over will be declared declared the winner. And if both players go over, you'll both be told to try again. And the chat should play along as well, because whoever has the closest answer will get a shout out from Phil the engineer. All right, there are three products for today's show. Phil, tell us about the first item up for bid here.
- [22:02]
Randall Williams
I gotta play the product music, Randall. It's very important. Oh, yep, there it is. Let's start today's bidding with the Garmin Sport Pro Dog Training Bundle. Is your dog's selective hearing worse than Ryan Callahan's? Has your pup come to confuse the command hear with quick run in the opposite direction? Well, those days will soon be a distant memory with the help of the Garmin Sport Pro Dog Training Bundle. Rated the 1 dog training collar of 2025 by our friends at Shields. This puppy features 10 levels of static stimulation to match your dog's temperament, plus vibrate tone and a beacon light so you can keep track of your pup on those midnight potties that last a suspiciously long time. Plus, there's a built in bark limiter so the neighbors don't call animal control when you've got to work late editing podcast recordings that should have been sent to you 48 hours before. If nothing works and your dog still sucks after your best efforts, hang this remote around your neck with the included lanyard at the dog park and at least you'll look like a guy who takes his canine training seriously. E collar should only be used after properly educating yourself on safe and effective training methods. Side effects may include the unsettling realization that your dog could fully understand every command all along. It's ultimately professional dog training before use effectiveness may decrease your dog. Exactly. Smarter than you are.
- [23:08]
Tony Peterson
Wow, Phil. Wow. You are that. That's a hell of a side effects read.
- [23:15]
Randall Williams
Thank you.
- [23:16]
Tony Peterson
I didn't realize you the the human voice was capable of that. I thought it was always done in after after effects, but I always thought they fast forwarded.
- [23:25]
Randall Williams
Oh, no.
- [23:26]
Lake Pickle
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:27]
Tony Peterson
But no, Phil, you just sound. Fast forward it. So we've got the Garmin Sport Pro Dog Training Bundle. What are your guesses, gentlemen? Here it seems like a a fine product. Again, rated the number one dog training collar of 2025 by our friends at Shields. And I will note these prices that we're reading here are from Shields. You have your answers when we flip those boards over. Tony goes with 17900 and Lake goes with 500. We've got a winner. The correct answer is $249.99. Tony, well done. Well done. You got one of those?
- [24:11]
Lake Pickle
I do not.
- [24:12]
Tony Peterson
It's a competitive price.
- [24:13]
Lake Pickle
It is. It's a great price.
- [24:15]
Tony Peterson
Phil, what do we got for our second item up for bid here today? And I apologize, these descriptions are much too long. I now realize having listened to your first one.
- [24:27]
Randall Williams
I like them. It's fun to read them. How about a petsafe automatic ball launcher? Is your throwing arm begging for mercy while your dog's still begging for one more toss? Does your furry friend have the aerobic endurance of Giannis Putellis? But the only thing you want to throw is throw back a few rum punches after, say, a long day of podcast recording with an eccentric, opinion, opinionated, opinionated individual who is hyper fixated on a few specific activities that don't really align with your interests. Wow, this is hitting home, Randall. Problem solved. This ball flinging miracle launches standard tennis balls up to 30ft. Perfect for the dog who has more energy than snort on pheasant opener with multiple distance settings, you can adjust from living room friendly to huck that sucker into the next zip code. And built in motion sensors prevent balls from launching when your unsuspecting family members are in the line of fire. Your dog can even learn to reload it themselves, though success rates vary depending on whether your pet is a great graduate of dog Edu or, well, not. Get ready to reclaim your sofa time while your dog runs itself into a tennis ball induced stupor.
- [25:26]
Tony Peterson
Nicely done, Phil. Ooh, boy, that looks fancy. I wonder how much you could possibly cost. You guys have your answers ready? Let me flip them over here. Tony goes with 49.99 and Lake goes with 89.99. The correct answer is $209.99. Got a tie game here, fellas. Boy, you guys didn't have much confidence in the quality of that tennis ball launcher.
- [26:01]
Lake Pickle
You don't see a lot of those in my world.
- [26:04]
Unknown
I was just trying to rein it in after I so, like, widely overshot the first one.
- [26:08]
Tony Peterson
Yes, good strategy.
- [26:08]
Randall Williams
And I bet people in the live chat are saying, but Randall, you're not asking about the commenters. And if they're guessing correctly. But here's the thing. I have not had time to even. Look.
- [26:17]
Tony Peterson
I know. I'm sorry, Phil. I really.
- [26:18]
Randall Williams
No, it's okay. It's. Honestly, it's making my job easier.
- [26:21]
Tony Peterson
The read is too taxing. I just. The word counts too hard.
- [26:24]
Randall Williams
You guys can feel good about yourselves.
- [26:25]
Tony Peterson
In the next One's a little shorter though. I will say, when I was preparing this yesterday, Sydney walked in and I showed her the tennis ball thrower and she said, oh, we should get that. And I said, guess how much it is? She said, 209.99. And I said, or no, I said it was 209.99. She said we shouldn't get that.
- [26:43]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [26:44]
Tony Peterson
So had we been priced at like $89.99? I might be the owner of one. Anyway, onto our next item.
- [26:55]
Randall Williams
How about a three month supply of Nexguard chewables for dogs weighing 60 to 121 pounds? It's Nexguard chewable tablets for dogs. Is your furry friend a hair covered hideaway for blood sucking freeloaders? You need nexguard Redbox. These beef flavored death traps. Don't mess around. Don't negotiate. Annihilate. Send those nasty bugs straight to hell. Nexcard Redbox will get the job done.
- [27:18]
Unknown
No survivors.
- [27:20]
Randall Williams
One tasty treat each month gives your sweet pooch 30 days of protection from ticks and fleas. And the Redbox 3 months supply means fewer trips to the vet. Next guard. Because the only things you should be sucking the life out of are your soul crushing job, your suffocating mortgage, the bone chilling cold of winter, and the existential dread that your entire existence is just a cosmic joke played by an indifferent universe, not your dog's disgusting parasites.
- [27:47]
Tony Peterson
Knocked it out of the park, Phil. Thank you for that. Thank you for that.
- [27:50]
Randall Williams
Yeah, anytime.
- [27:51]
Tony Peterson
So we've got a three month supply of nexguard chewables for dogs. And again, this is. This is for dogs weighing 60 to 121 pounds. Tony, are you Nexguard man?
- [28:04]
Lake Pickle
Nope. And you probably figured that out pretty quickly here, buddy.
- [28:08]
Tony Peterson
Mmm. Mmm. Lake, do you have dogs?
- [28:14]
Unknown
Oh, yeah, I got two of them.
- [28:15]
Tony Peterson
What kinds?
- [28:16]
Unknown
Labs.
- [28:16]
Tony Peterson
Oh, good, good, good, good. Well, why don't we flip those boards over, gang? Tony goes with 39.95 and Lake says $100. Lake, you're closest, but you went over. The correct answer is $90.89. So Tony's going to get away with a cheap victory here.
- [28:36]
Lake Pickle
I don't feel good about it.
- [28:37]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, the low ball in Price is Right is really a coward's move.
- [28:40]
Lake Pickle
I mean, I feel better than losing.
- [28:42]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
- [28:44]
Unknown
None of us feel as good as Phil does.
- [28:46]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, I think Phil won that. Won that little segment. Thanks for playing.
- [28:49]
Randall Williams
It's just a really good. Yeah, thank you for those.
- [28:51]
Tony Peterson
Thanks for playing along, everybody. And remember to help control the pet population. Have your pet split, fade and neutered. It's oddly prescient for Bob Barker to do this knowing that we would do this now on radio live during Dog Week.
- [29:05]
Randall Williams
He must have known.
- [29:06]
Tony Peterson
Yep.
- [29:08]
Unknown
Hey, friend. I know how this feels. Waking up exhausted after multiple trips to the bathroom and feeling embarrassed by sudden leaks. I used to be constantly on edge, searching for a restroom whenever I was out. Then I discovered Better Woman. I was skeptical at first, but two months in, everything changed. I experienced improved bladder control, no more heart stopping moments when I laugh or sneeze, less urge to go deeper, and more restful sleep. I finally felt like myself again, confident and in control. Better Woman is natural, effective, clinically tested and trusted by Women for over 25 years. Ready to take back your control? Head over to bebetternow.com to order your supply today. That's be betternow.com these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Use as directed. Individual results may vary.
- [30:08]
Steve Rinella
Steve Rinella here. The American west with Dan Flores is a new podcast production on the Meat Eater Podcast Network. It's hosted by author and historian Dan Flores, who happens to be mine and our own Dr. Randall's former professor. By focusing on deep time wild animals, native peoples in the West's unique environments, Flores will challenge your understanding of the American west and he will help to explain why it is the way it is today. I count Dan Flores as a friend. We do not agree on everything, but he has had a massive impact on my understanding of American history and I invite you to get challenged by him in the same way that I have. Catch the premiere of the American west with Dan flores on Tuesday, May 6th on the meat Eater Podcast Network. Subscribe to the American west with Dan Flores on Apple, Spotify, Iheart or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Dan and it will stretch your brain all out. And I mean that in a very good way.
- [31:25]
Tony Peterson
Let's take a break for some listener feedback. Phil, what does the chat have to say?
- [31:29]
Randall Williams
Yeah, I apologize because I haven't been looking at the chat for a while. So please get your dog related questions or not dog related into the live chat now if you would like them answered by our crew. First comment comes from Brent Reeves. He says, little known fact, Lake Pickle can sing just like George Strait.
- [31:48]
Unknown
That's not true.
- [31:50]
Randall Williams
Oh. I mean, I think there's only one way to find out.
- [31:53]
Tony Peterson
You look so good in love. Hit me.
- [31:54]
Unknown
You look so good in love Wow. I preferred it was on key.
- [32:01]
Tony Peterson
That was great. I prefer Jamie Foxx's version though.
- [32:04]
Unknown
It's probably better.
- [32:05]
Tony Peterson
It is good.
- [32:06]
Randall Williams
Wokum says, I have a question about dog steadiness. My two year old chocolate lab loves the sound of guns and is off to off the place so fast, even when I just raised the gun. How best to teach steadiness?
- [32:19]
Tony Peterson
That's a Tony question, I think.
- [32:21]
Lake Pickle
Well, there's kind of a lot to unpack there, but I would say you kind of have to back up and go the gun should. This. This is sort of going to be a parallel to gunfire introduction. Right. We started with clapping. We started like distant clapping. Then you work in some 22s and that kind of stuff. If your dog recognizes that gun as an excuse to break, then you got to back up and work steadiness in a way where it's like make him sit to wait to feed, make him sit on the retrieves and get the, the basic foundational steadiness first. Because what this sounds like is maybe there were some false positives with the steadiness earlier. So we moved on. And now this dog associates that gun with the best thing possible. And you have to go back and go, do you have steadiness down pat first before that gun comes anywhere near it. So I would, I would back way up on that before I brought a gun out again.
- [33:14]
Tony Peterson
Lake, anything to add there?
- [33:16]
Unknown
Yeah, I mean one thing I would say, I'd say that's not the worst problem to have. I would rather him be eager rather than the opposite of. But yeah, I mean, just echoing off of what Tony said. I mean all that's based off the foundation of discipline of a dog. Like just the foundations of obedience to everything. So I mean, I don't have anything on top of what Tony said, but tailor it back and just make sure that he's steady to everything else and then advance back forward.
- [33:40]
Lake Pickle
Yeah. And it, this sounds, I don't know, I mean, filling in the blanks here. But this sounds like waterfowl training to some extent. And if you think about if you have a dog that's that keyed up when a gun comes up to jump or to break. Now you have a real safety issue because you imagine those birds coming in everybody's eyes to the sky and that dog feels the same way. You bring that gun up, might flare your birds, but now you have, you knock down a cripple in the water, you're like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shoot it before we send the Dog. That dog jumps out and you're. You know what I mean? It's just like, that's one of those things that's really tough because it's unnatural. Steadiness is unnatural for dogs, but it's a safety issue, aside from just a manners and behavior issue.
- [34:20]
Unknown
The other thing is like, you never want to be the guy on a waterfowl hunt that has the dog that breaks you. Don't you want to get a handle?
- [34:28]
Tony Peterson
I don't bring my dogs anywhere.
- [34:30]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [34:30]
Tony Peterson
For that reason. Yeah, they're not trained at all. Phil, what else we got?
- [34:36]
Randall Williams
1. Spencer Newharth asks Tony Lake, Randall and Phil, you get to pick three hot dog toppings for the rest of your life. What are they?
- [34:45]
Tony Peterson
Ketchup, mustard, relish.
- [34:47]
Lake Pickle
Ketchup, mustard, onions.
- [34:49]
Unknown
Ketchup, mustard, cheese.
- [34:51]
Lake Pickle
Cheese.
- [34:52]
Randall Williams
Cheese, mustard, sauerkraut.
- [34:54]
Lake Pickle
Is that a Mississippi thing?
- [34:56]
Tony Peterson
Are we talking like real. Are we talking like frankfurters, like, or are we talking just brs?
- [35:02]
Randall Williams
How about, how about you get specific, Randall? This is what the people are here for. It's dog week.
- [35:07]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, I don't know. We'll just stick to hot dogs. Ketchup, mustard, relish.
- [35:13]
Randall Williams
Great. On that note, heritage tradition asks, have you guys ever had a Seattle dog which is cream cheese and grilled. Yeah, grilled onions, which I love a lot.
- [35:24]
Unknown
I thought he was talking about a breed of dog.
- [35:26]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [35:27]
Unknown
Like, what's a Seattle dog?
- [35:28]
Tony Peterson
No, it's a great, it's a great hot dog. It's a great regional variation on a. On a tried and true classic hardway.
- [35:34]
Randall Williams
Alaska asks, my four year old blue tick has separation and just high anxiety and high anxiety in general. Is there hope on breaking her from this or is she just a house pet?
- [35:45]
Lake Pickle
So separation anxiety is one of the biggest stressors in most modern dogs Life, like this is a real issue. I would say. I don't, I don't know a lot about blue ticks, but I would say fundamentally the dogs that get the worst separation anxiety are not necessarily as confident dogs and also haven't been not only exercised physically, but mentally. So when you want to take the edge off a dog, we kind of gloss over the mental part, like the little problem solving games. But you think about kindergarteners, right? Like they learn, they have recess, they learn, they play. Dogs are kind of the same way. They need to run and get that physical exercise, but they need that mental stimulation. And that's not going to like totally cure separation anxiety because there could be other stuff to unpack there. But you can definitely sort of mitigate some of the worst effects of it.
- [36:42]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, I have house bets. So again, nothing really to add to that.
- [36:45]
Randall Williams
Right.
- [36:46]
Tony Peterson
What else we got, Phil?
- [36:47]
Randall Williams
Oh, Pete has a very pressing question and I'm sure you guys have an answer for him. It's morel season. Any tips on training my 13 month old Vizsla how to find them for me?
- [36:56]
Unknown
Is that a thing?
- [36:57]
Lake Pickle
You could absolutely do that. I bet you think so. Just positive association, man. I, I promise you you could probably train.
- [37:05]
Randall Williams
Okay. Because I assumed it was a joke and I read it like a joke. But if you think that it, it could be possible.
- [37:09]
Tony Peterson
No, there's, there's a lot of like dogs that sniff mushrooms, right?
- [37:14]
Lake Pickle
There are some, yeah.
- [37:15]
Tony Peterson
But I mean I shouldn't say a.
- [37:16]
Lake Pickle
Lot, but that's a thing, I think. I don't, I don't know this for sure, but I bet you could probably order up dried Morel powder which would have a lot of surface area for scent and you could train year round. You know, it's kind of like shed antler training. You know, a shed antler itself doesn't have a lot of scent, but ground bone powder has a lot of scent. And so I bet you could do this better than you would probably think. But you have that really short window of Morel season to actually have that dog go out and get that practical experience. So you'd have to figure out a way to train it off season. And that's how I would do it.
- [37:49]
Tony Peterson
I like it. I've morel hunted with my dogs, but.
- [37:52]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [37:53]
Tony Peterson
None of us found them.
- [37:55]
Randall Williams
And then another one from Pete. How to encourage a water shy dog to get more interested in swimming. Any general tips for that?
- [38:03]
Lake Pickle
Water shyness is way more common than people think. And so I, in fact the four year old lab that I have, I had a hell of a time getting her into the water and I didn't see that coming. Go out on hot days, get them really worked up and then change your training location to someplace with water. Clear water's the best if you can get it. Nice gentle slope, hard bottom so there's no surprises. So that dog, you know, if it's 95 degrees out there and you've been training, that dog gets into that water, it's going to go into the water to some level, but you don't want it to hit a ledge and fall off. Get surprised. You don't want cold water, you don't want too much current. And so for my dog I tried all that and it, she wouldn't go in past she wouldn't go in past her chest, so her tail end would be floating. And I ended up having to bring out a pheasant wing, take her to a new environment and use a pond that right in the middle of it was just deep enough where she'd have to swim. So I had the highest reward she had ever encountered to that point in her life to retrieve because she wanted that wing more than anything. It was a new environment, so a mental reset. And then as soon as she did it and retrieved that wing, I never dealt with it again. And it was like a three month process for me.
- [39:16]
Unknown
I had a similar experience. The dog I have now, no issues. The dog I had before him, he was scared of death, of water. Like wouldn't touch it and I had to. But he loved feathers. And so same thing. I had to build it up there. And he did. First time I put it in the water, he would stand on just on the edge of the water and bark and whine until finally he just broke and went in there himself. And then problem solved.
- [39:39]
Tony Peterson
Did my dogs just swim? I don't have anything to.
- [39:43]
Randall Williams
Great. We'll call that for the segment now, but we'll do this one more time at the end of the show.
- [39:47]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, get those questions in.
- [39:48]
Randall Williams
Get those questions in. I should have more time to read them this time.
- [39:51]
Tony Peterson
Thanks, Phil. Yeah, thanks, Phil. It's a great listener feedback break.
- [39:54]
Randall Williams
It was.
- [39:55]
Tony Peterson
We're on to Meat Eater Movie Club. I'm already self conscious about how long this is Wilson Rawls. Where the Red Fern Grows, adapted for screen in 1974, is a beloved coming of age story about a young boy named Billy Coleman and his two coon hounds in the Ozark Mountains of Oklahoma. It lives on as a beloved family classic that continues to resonate with viewers for its authentic portrayal of rural life, the earnest performances from its actors, and the emotional impact on younger audiences. The plot of where the Redfern Grows is relatively simple. Boy wants dogs, boy gets dogs, dogs die prematurely. But this minimalist narrative structure functions as a devastatingly elegant meta commentary, like Sisyphus eternally pushing his boulder uphill, only to watch it roll back down. Billy Coleman's tireless efforts to acquire his hounds, his meticulous training regimen and his eventual hunting triumphs constitute an elaborate exercise in cosmic futility. The mathematical certainty with which the narrative arc concludes in the death of his short lived companions mirrors the inescapable terminus of all biological existence, suggesting that the universe operates not as a moral economy where hard work yields proportional reward, but rather as a cruel charade that temporarily entertains our aspirations before mechanistically dismantling them. Now, please indulge me. I'm going to depart from a subject at hand. But this will all make sense. On September 15, 1833, the English poet Arthur Henry Hallam suddenly dropped dead of a cerebral hemorrhage in the city of Vienna, Austria, at the tragically young age of 22. Over the following 17 years, Hallam's former classmate at Cambridge, Alfred Lord Tennyson, paid tribute to his dear friend at a sprawling narrative poem titled In Memoriam Aah. That wrestles with the inevitability of tragedy and loss. Perhaps most notably, the poem introduced Victorian audiences to the metaphor of nature, red in tooth and claw. Later adopted by the acolytes of Charles Darwin for its clear eyed characterization of a world shaped by the cold calculus of death and survivorship. Where the Red Fern Grows serves as a cinematic literalization of Dennison's meditative elegy. The correspondence between these works transcends mere thematic similarities. Both emerge from profound personal grief. Tennyson's for Hollam and Rawls from childhood memory of his own dogs. Both employ animal violence as a stand in for universal suffering, and both ultimately questioned divine benevolence in a world of struggle and violence. Tennyson's vision of creation as an indifferent slaughterhouse, so careful of the type she seems, so careless of, the single life, finds its perfect juvenile counterpart in Billy Coleman's Ozark Woods. The profound difference, of course, is that Tennyson was writing for a sophisticated mid century readership capable of appreciating 3,000 lines of dense poetry. Where the Red Fern Grows is curiously tailor made for ambushing elementary school students with philosophical provocations. Were Billy Coleman's dogs merely a cruel diversion from the fundamental emptiness of human experience? Perhaps most insidious is the film's calculated subversion of Billy's crowning achievement, the hunting tournament victory. Through his grandfather's bumbling ineptitude, this transforms Billy's moment of triumph into a hollow victory contaminated by chance and human error. The message crystallizes with brutal clarity even when one executes everything perfectly. Random circumstance or the incompetence of others can instantly nullify one's achievements. The trophy Billy receives thus becomes not a symbol of genuine accomplishment, but rather a monument to the arbitrary nature of success and failure, a child's introduction to absurdity wrapped in golden metal. Most remarkable is the film's half hearted gesture towards meaningful consolation. The red fern itself, supposedly planted by angels where Extraordinary devotion exists, offers no genuine comfort. It is merely a botanical curiosity marking the patch of earth where Billy's beloved companions decompose. This supernatural element serves only to emphasize that even the divine cannot reverse the finality of death. Now, this reviewer is not prone to whining about the emotional underdevelopment of today's coddled youth. Discussions of generational decline and our society's refusal to teach children hard lessons are ripe fodder for old men with talk shows. But there is something refreshing where the word. Sorry, I rewrote this by hand. There is something refreshing about the film's bitter. Oh, excuse me. Sorry. This is just awful. There is something refreshing about the bitter existential truth serving as the film's core message. Attachments are temporary, bodies fail. And nothing, not love, not courage, not even narrative filmmaking convention, can prevent our individual and collective descent into oblivion. It seems as though children are meant to absorb this nihilistic parable as a heartwarming coming of age romp. The film endures as an unforgettable initiation ritual into the awareness of life's temporary nature, ensuring that generations of young viewers understand that emotional investment invariably leads to loss. And that cycle continues with a frigid indifference to human sentiment until all of us join our beloved pets in the warm, filled soil.
- [45:24]
Lake Pickle
Okay.
- [45:27]
Tony Peterson
Now, Dog week. I didn't know what to make of this film. I'll be honest. I remember reading the book as child, and I watched the film yesterday, and I was. I was horrified and shocked by it. Tony Lake, what are your thoughts here?
- [45:45]
Unknown
So we were given that. We were told we had to read that book when we were in second grade. And we read it as a class. And when it came to the point where the dogs died, the entire class, including the teachers, were bawling in the classroom. Then we watched the movie. And as a second grader, you don't pick up on some of the things, right? And then she actually had a guy who was a coon hunter come into our second grade classroom with his Bluetooth.
- [46:10]
Tony Peterson
So you could fully appreciate what had just died on the silver screen.
- [46:13]
Unknown
That's what they were getting at. Yeah. They want. But so rewatching the movie, having not seen it in second grade, you just pick up on some things and I'll just. I'll just go straight into it. I couldn't. The first. The first scene of the movie, they touch on. They're like Billy's family. His parents have this goal. They want to move to Tulsa and take over their uncle's feed store. So you're like, okay, that's a thing. You go through the whole thing. He gets his dogs. He trains them. They're great coon dogs. The dog, old Dan gets killed. That's terrible. And then little Ann dies, and Billy is on the ground holding his dead dog, crying, that has just passed away seconds ago. And his mom and dad walk up and they're like, you know, Billy, this kind of works out.
- [46:59]
Tony Peterson
Now we can move to Tulsa. Right?
- [47:01]
Unknown
And I watched that.
- [47:02]
Tony Peterson
I was like, sheesh, I forgot about that. In the opening when they talked to the Mr. Mr. Kyle, and he does mention that they want to move to Tulsa. Yeah. Maybe. This film is actually about the tragedy of, you know, capital and labor having to follow, you know, the market. And it's just. It's a tragedy about how unrooted we are from our homes because of the system in which we live. Tony, what are your thoughts?
- [47:28]
Lake Pickle
Well, I'm going to piggyback here on what Lake just said. I mean, I caught that, too. I watched this yesterday and finished it this morning. But also, I wondered when Billy tripped one of the brothers that fell on the hatchet.
- [47:43]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [47:43]
Lake Pickle
I was like, is that involuntary manslaughter?
- [47:45]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [47:46]
Lake Pickle
And, you know, because it was pretty. They were pretty. They kind of glossed over the fact that.
- [47:49]
Tony Peterson
They really glossed over. Yeah.
- [47:51]
Lake Pickle
In a. In a fight over this white whale goon that he was chasing here. So when he's inconsolably sad and his beloved dogs have died, and his mom's like, well, I guess we're going to do the Tulsa thing.
- [48:06]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [48:06]
Lake Pickle
Sorry, Billy. I'm kind of like, well, Billy killed a kid, like, two weeks earlier, and you guys didn't even seem to care.
- [48:15]
Tony Peterson
No. The next scene was they were eating dinner, and grandpa really wanted him to enter into the coon hunting tournament.
- [48:20]
Lake Pickle
Right, right. They moved on real quick from that.
- [48:22]
Tony Peterson
It's a movie about two dogs dying, but a kid dies in the middle of it. And that just sort of glosses right over.
- [48:28]
Lake Pickle
That's kind of a pr. So everybody's like, whatever.
- [48:33]
Unknown
The grandpa's like, look, Billy, I know you killed that kid.
- [48:35]
Tony Peterson
And his dad was a bad guy, too. His dad really drives a hard bargain.
- [48:40]
Lake Pickle
Well, I mean, but I think that was the lesson there, right?
- [48:42]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [48:42]
Lake Pickle
So the bad dad has bad kids. The good dad figures out a way to facilitate this coon dog situation with Billy, and it changes his life, and he becomes a man and moves to Tulsa.
- [48:52]
Unknown
And I keep hinging on, like, the parent thing. Before little Ann dies, there's a scene where it shows like, little Ann's distraught and she's not doing very well. And she's on the floor and Billy's trying to get her to eat. And the dad turns around at the dinner table. He's, like, looking at something. He pulls his glasses off. He goes. Just looks like the life's gone out of her anyway. And then he just goes back to doing what he's doing.
- [49:12]
Lake Pickle
You're like, God, like that young boy you wear.
- [49:15]
Tony Peterson
Or when he brings back old Dan and he's, like, working on him in the kitchen table, he just says something like, I've never seen wounds this bad before.
- [49:27]
Unknown
Needless to say, it did not hold up for what I remembered in second grade.
- [49:32]
Tony Peterson
Yeah. I was also struck by how often I had to go back and rewatch a scene because the lighting was so bad that I couldn't tell what had happened.
- [49:39]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [49:39]
Tony Peterson
When they got to the funeral, I had to go back. I was like, did one of those kids die? Did Billy die? And then I went back and saw the hatchet thing again. Same with the lion scene. Happened very quickly.
- [49:52]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [49:52]
Unknown
What I want to know how'd they film that?
- [49:56]
Tony Peterson
Like, the lion scene? Yeah.
- [49:58]
Unknown
And then, like, they didn't have CGI back then.
- [50:01]
No.
- [50:01]
Lake Pickle
I think they threw a mountain lion with those two dogs.
- [50:04]
Tony Peterson
Yeah. Trained lions.
- [50:06]
Unknown
Let's see what happens.
- [50:07]
Lake Pickle
It's the Homeward Bound thing.
- [50:09]
Tony Peterson
I. Yeah. I didn't think this movie really warranted a traditional discussion of what was realistic in it from an outdoorsman's perspective. And what. What fell flat from an outdoorsman's perspective? Because I walked away from it and just thought, oh, my God, there's a lot to say. And there's also not a lot to say.
- [50:28]
Lake Pickle
Right?
- [50:31]
Tony Peterson
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.
- [50:33]
Randall Williams
Yeah. Sean says, why the hell do all the classic animal books end with death where the Redfern Girls, Old Yeller, the Yearling. I'm forgetting a few. But can't we have a few creatures that live happily ever after? And, like, it is true if pets, dogs especially, I feel, are used a lot as kind of, like, narrative. I don't want to say crutches, because a lot of times the dogs are the point of the story. They drive the plot, but it's their death or our fear of losing them that just. It's like a shortcut to the heartstrings, you know? I'm trying to think of, like, animals that just. Like pets that are a part of a story, that are a main part of a story, that end up living throughout the Whole movie or the whole book?
- [51:10]
Lake Pickle
It's literally called dead dog writing.
- [51:12]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [51:12]
Lake Pickle
I mean, it's a trope, but it's.
- [51:16]
Tony Peterson
Just shocking to me. The guy was like, I got an idea for a book. Dogs Die. Here's the twist. He didn't have the dogs when the book began and he had to get the dogs, but then the dogs die. That's it. That's it.
- [51:33]
Lake Pickle
Yeah, but that's a story. I mean, that's been replayed. That's been repackaged a lot.
- [51:38]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, yeah. It's like a modern day Romeo and Juliet, you know, Is it died young. Yeah. I mean, that's another story that just ends with people dying. Right. I think there is something to be said for creative works that just end with untimely deaths and then that's just the end. You know, I think a good use.
- [51:56]
Randall Williams
Of a dog in media that kind of subverted the trope, but also fulfilled it is that episode of Futurama. Have you seen that Futurama before? Have any of you? Oh, okay. It's gonna be a dull conversation. But the dog doesn't die. But his owner, Fry, gets trapped cryogenically frozen and travels through time. That's the whole idea of the show. But there's an episode that focuses on the dog he had before he was frozen. And then the episode ends with the dog just waiting outside the pizza place that he works at without knowing he was frozen. And it shows the seasons, like, time lapse. The dog gets older and older and older. It's incredibly moving.
- [52:34]
Tony Peterson
I will say, just as my final thought, the most realistic aspect about this movie for me was that the hounds just turned barking into background noise.
- [52:44]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [52:44]
Tony Peterson
Like I was sitting there at my desk and just every now and then I would register that dogs are barking. And I was like, oh, this is exactly what it's like to spend time around hound dogs.
- [52:51]
Lake Pickle
Right?
- [52:52]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, it.
- [52:53]
Lake Pickle
Absolutely.
- [52:55]
Tony Peterson
And then the one runs out of the house and just jumps on the logs for no reason. I was like, yep, that's the hound dog.
- [52:59]
Lake Pickle
Yep.
- [53:01]
Tony Peterson
So, any final thoughts? I think we're running a little overtime for our next guest here.
- [53:07]
Unknown
I wish I would have kept it in second grade.
- [53:09]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, right? Yeah. Some things are best left right in the ground. On to our next guest.
- [53:18]
Phil
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- [54:05]
Tony Peterson
Our next guest is a wildlife parasitologist and the director of clinical parasitology at Cornell University, Dr. Mani Legerne. Mani, welcome to the show.
- [54:14]
I
Thank you for having me.
- [54:15]
Tony Peterson
Thanks for joining us. So you are on to talk about ticks and I think when it comes to dogs, we're thinking prevention. So what is the best flea or tick preventative on the market today? And is there anything that's a sure thing, 100% tick preventative measure we could take?
- [54:37]
I
I think my first advice is like the local veterinary practitioners, they should be the best bet to formulate a plan for treatment or control of ticks. But I can just broadly comment on the drugs that are available on the market. They can be broadly classified into two, like one that repels the tick and the other one that actually kills the ticket, the repellens. One good example is permethrin, as the name suggests. Like, you know, you apply onto the skin and then they kind of not allow the tick to attach to and take a blood meal and that's what they do. But if the ticks are exposed, prolonged to this drug, they can in fact kill the ticks. For the second category, which actually kills the tick. Like there are a lot of threats available. The early version of those drugs, like they're a bit messy, you need to apply onto the skin and again there are a lot of safety concerns. Say after applying it until it dry, like you can allow other pets to access the dog that got this application as well as kids, like, you know, they are not allowed to touch because of those safety issues and limitation. The owners are not like actually complying with this drug administration because in some areas where like the tick issues, the animal issue, like, you know, like it is year long issue, like you need to periodically apply this. But because of this limitation it's really hard for somebody to apply that. But the newer version, like they are really good, like, so they are designed for a rapid kill of ticks and these drugs are available both as a topical Application onto the skin as well as like the drugs can also be given orally. So that's the good part of this drug. And this drug class is called Isosceles Ice Ox Soling. Sorry about the tough pronunciation of this, but again these are very good, a very good drug. Like you know, once like taken orally or applied topically and they can kill the tick within two to eight hours depending on which drugs you use. They, they are that effective rapid kill and they some of the drugs in, in this class are also long acting like they are effective for 12 weeks and many other drugs are effective for 28 days. So then you could establish a periodicity of this application and the owners can comply with. So I think like the new class of drug which can be given oral is the best bet that are in the market to control prevent tick infestation.
- [57:03]
Tony Peterson
Gotcha. Thank you.
- [57:04]
I
Second question you asked about like if it is 100%, I would say like the main issue here is owner's compliance, the lack of efficacy, that the perceived lack of efficacy is mainly due to lack of compliance with the way the drug need to be administered following the label instruction or following the guidance from the vet. Like if everything is followed perfect, like the drugs are highly effective. Any drugs that are available in the market, they're highly effective. But on the other hand, like I also want to say that no drug is 100% effective. Despite you follow all the protocol, label instruction, you still see some ticks hanging onto the body. So no drug is 100%.
- [57:47]
Tony Peterson
So the big thing is following the manufacturer's directions rather than picking out a specific product on the market.
- [57:55]
I
That's correct.
- [57:55]
Tony Peterson
Gotcha. So the second thing that I think about when I think about ticks is Lyme's disease. And here in Montana, there's just in the news that we have our first known case of a deer tick with Lyme's disease in the state. Is this surprising to you or would you have expected this discovery sooner? I mean, what does the spread of Lyme disease look like from the chair.
- [58:17]
I
Of an expert, I read this news as well. So Lyme disease is very common here in New England. I'm from New York. So New England states like it's very common in Mid Atlantic states. Yes, it is there. And also upper Midwest is where you would expect Lyme disease on the ticks that transmits this. This disease is more prevalent in data. But the fact is like geographic range expansion for this tick is happening not just for this tick, for other ticks also across us. Like geographic range Expansion is happening. And in that sense, like it is not surprising. But I read the news and it seems like they collected this ticket from a hunting dog and then identify what this tick and also found Lyme in there. But it seems to me an introduction. It's an introduction. Even I don't know if the tick is actually established enough. So when I say introduction, see. So there are a lot of factors that plays for a tick to get established in a particular geographic locality, like host species abundance. So in this case the deer ticket, if you have a white tailed deer population, which is exploding, yes, that's a place where like this tick can survive. And not just white tailed deer, there are other hosts like rodents and even birds, migratory birds, all those. So and again, the other things such as the microhabitat that would help with establishment of the stick. So everything needs to be lined up for the tick to establish. So if it is just a introductory event, like it happens with a lot of ticks in different places, the ticks get introduced, say for example migratory birds, when they carry the nymphal stage of the stick and they can drop the stick far off places, but on that place where it is dropped off, like it need to be established. And a lot of factors play stool for getting this established up. So I can give one example here in New York, like in Long island, which is the east of New York City, so 30 years ago, Lone Star tick, which is not the deer tick, the Lone Star tick was not known to occur in that space. But at the eastern end of that Long island, it was introduced three decades ago and then that slowly spread and now the entire Long island is like full of Lone Star tick. That's because of the white tailed deer population, which is like exploding exported in that region, as well as the wild turkey, which can host the stage of the stick, you know, they are also reestablishing in that region. So all this played a major factor in allowing the Lone Star to establish in that area. So same could be true for geotech to establish in a place like it has to have all these factors in place.
- [61:06]
Tony Peterson
So say you find a tick on yourself or your dog, what do you want to look for in terms of determining whether or not you should be worried? And then like what, what are some of the symptoms that would make you concerned if they develop after finding a tick on you or your dog? As far as Lyme's disease go on.
- [61:27]
I
For Lyme disease, you know, dogs like, they are not like humans. In humans, like if you're bitten by a tick Deer tick, like it's easy to see that you react to it and then you get the disease. And the bullseye lesion, which we all know can be caused by the introduction of the Lyme disease into a host, especially in humans. But the dogs, they are different. Like the disease are not like typical, like the signs are not typical. And sometimes like the dog don't even suffer from the disease. They are asymptomatic. So it is really hard to say if the dog has like based on looking at like you know, the dog has picked up the disease or not. But other non what to say. So other signs such as like a fever and arthritis, all those things can occur. So I think like consulting a vet is the best bet to confirm if the Lyme disease is present or not by doing all additional ancillary tests.
- [62:26]
Tony Peterson
Gotcha. And one final question for you. Other than Lyme disease, what are some other, are there other tick borne illnesses that dog owners should be worried about or aware of?
- [62:41]
I
Not just the deer tick, like there are three other ticks that dogs can be infected with. In fact like I would say four others. So the American dog tick, the Lone Star tick and the brown dog tick. And the reason one is the Asian long arm tick. So these all can affect dogs and they come with their own pathogens to transmit. And I just want to comment about the Asian longhorn tick. So this tick was not here in the US and it was detected in 2017 in New Jersey on a sheep. And this tick has a wide host preference and they are seen in plenty in environment where this occurs. And as of now as per the USDA study like 21 states where the sticks have already been identified. But not on to Montana. I think Kansas and the Missouri is where it has been documented so far. But they can affect dogs and they can transmit what is called the Rocky Mountain spotted fever. So in Montana like the Rocky Mountain wood tick, which is responsible for transmitting Rocky Mountain spotted fever to humans as well as in dogs. But we know it occurs there. But if this new Asian long on tick, if they spread to this new geographical area, they can be of major concern. The reason is Asian long on tick are not like other ticks like other ticks. They may they need for producing progenies. A female needs a male. But with Asian longhorn take like the females don't need a doesn't need a male. Like they can just produce progenies on their own. So if they hop onto your host like they, they can produce, they can have a blood meal, produce a lot of progenies and then they can swarm onto the host. And in some places in, in Virginia, West Virginia, we have seen cases where like cattle are infected with this host, with this tick, and then they just drink blood and beat the host to death. So that's one concern. But they can also transmit Rocky Mountain spotted fever. So in new location where this ticks emerge and they can be of concern for transmuting Rocky Mountain spotter fever.
- [64:51]
Tony Peterson
Gotcha. Well, Dr. Lejerne, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing some of your expertise with our audience.
- [64:59]
I
Yeah, thank you for helping me. Thank you so much.
- [65:05]
Tony Peterson
Now, our final segment this week is Throwback Thursday Dog Edition.
- [65:10]
Randall Williams
Throw back on a Thursday morning. Stephen Brody, take me back to 1974.
- [65:19]
Tony Peterson
Throw back again.
- [65:21]
Lake Pickle
Believe it.
- [65:22]
Randall Williams
Did I mention Steve and Brody are old as shit?
- [65:28]
Tony Peterson
That's the kind of stuff we like to do around here to have fun, right? Listen to Phil's jingles.
- [65:33]
Randall Williams
Pretty silly, huh?
- [65:34]
Unknown
It's fantastic.
- [65:35]
Tony Peterson
Well, Throwback Thursday is where we each share a photo and share the tale that goes with our photos. Phil, who do you have up first for us?
- [65:44]
Randall Williams
I believe I have you first, but I can switch it up.
- [65:46]
Tony Peterson
Oh, no, no. Let's go with what you have. I don't want to cause any more trouble than I have already. Oh, so this is. I had a hard time picking some of my dog photos and trying to assemble a story out of them, so I thought I'd. Dolly had an interesting hunting season this year. People ask if I have a hunting dog, and I say no. But she does end up going hunting quite a bit. This is her as a puppy being used, using an FHF bino harness as a puppy carrier, looking for some spring bears. And then over time, that was her first hunting trip. Over time, we tried to teach her about safety in the field. Next photo, please. We practiced our marksmanship together. Next photo, please. And we did some habitat work, you know, giving back to the wildlife that we all love. Next photo, please. So Dolly joined us on a few hunts this fall. This is a deer that my wife Sydney shot. And you can see Dolly there on the right and then Rosie the good dog on the left. Next photo. The day after that, we helped my buddy pack out an elk. And Dolly discovered her love for elk and elk hunting. Next photo, please. She carried the forelimb of that elk for about one and a half miles and then mysteriously dropped it once we got very near to the vehicle. And then last, I believe this is my last photo. Then she accompanied us on a bison hunt and she went apeshit on that bison. And just every little piece of trim that came off, Dolly ate it. And then she was very interested in the hide as well. So, you know, that's just sort of a nonsensical, non linear explanation of my hunting experience with my non hunting dogs.
- [67:33]
Randall Williams
That was lovely.
- [67:33]
Tony Peterson
Thank you.
- [67:34]
Lake Pickle
Beautiful, beautiful.
- [67:35]
Randall Williams
Thank you, Lake. I've got your pictures up next. I didn't, I wasn't sure the order you wanted them in, so I don't.
- [67:41]
Unknown
Think they're in any particular order. I just picked five. So that's, that's my dog, Knox.
- [67:45]
Tony Peterson
That's a real hunting dog.
- [67:46]
Unknown
Yeah, he's one of those. Yep. That picture in particular is important because that is the first pheasant, wild pheasant. We were in north Kansas. It's the first wild pheasant that he found him, flushed him, retrieved him all by himself. And I was, I think I was prouder than he was. I was, I was pretty pumped that. Okay, that's a special one. That's his first duck hunt ever. He would have been like six months old at the time. And again, I think I was probably prouder than he was. Next photo please, sir. I like this one in particular because I forgot the dog stand that morning. So if you notice, he's sitting on the bottom, the bottom half of a climber stand. And that is a cut out square patch of carpet that I'm using so it doesn't fall through it.
- [68:29]
Tony Peterson
That's great. Yeah, Brilliant.
- [68:30]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [68:31]
Fantastic ingenuity. Oh, this one's my favorite. So that's my wife Lacy, and that was her first duck she ever killed. Big, pretty greenhead. And it was just icing on the cake. I mean, there's anyone knows me like, I love hunting with my dog. It's just. What. And so being able to hunt with my wife, she shot that duck and then Knox went and retrieved it. I was so happy. Is that. I think that's it. Is there any more?
- [68:54]
Randall Williams
That was a duplicate.
- [68:55]
Unknown
There you go. So that's the, that's the archives of Knox, my dog.
- [68:59]
Tony Peterson
Good looking dog.
- [69:00]
Unknown
Yeah, he's fun. He's a lot of fun.
- [69:01]
Tony Peterson
How old is he?
- [69:02]
Unknown
Seven. Just turned seven last month.
- [69:05]
Randall Williams
All right, Tony, we've got a photo for you here.
- [69:07]
Lake Pickle
So this is the only photo I put in because this story is going to take me a little while. So this is my, this dog's 12 now, but in this photo she was about a year. And for people who don't know, I. This dog's 12. I have two 13 year old daughters. So I got a puppy, this puppy, when my daughters were one, which was a lot. So my wife and I still fight about this, even though I'm right. My wife came home and left a bag of groceries on the counter. I come home later and the groceries are on the floor and there's some wrappers strewn around because she's a lab, right? We left her home in the lab, or lab was home alone. I start looking at it and I go, man, this looks like a big box of raisins. And they're all gone. And so call my wife. I'm like, hey, did you. And she's like, yeah, I bought a pound of raisins. Probably the only pound of raisins we've ever bought in our lives. Dog ate the whole thing. They're supposed to be toxic to dogs. So I'm freaking out. So I take her to the vet and she spends all day at our regular vet. And the vet calls me and says, hey, you got to get this dog to an overnight vet to monitor it, keep the fluids going so its kidneys don't get messed up. So I'm wrangling two, you know, year and a half old kids and this dog take her to the overnight vet, which is not cheap. And then the next morning they call me up and I gotta go get her. And they're like, I don't think any amount of raisins could kill this dog. But. So I load up the girls, they're in their PJs, walk in there. And Luna had never been away from us, so Luna was losing her. And I hear this dog going nuts in the background while I've got my two little girls who can stand and walk, but not real well. The vet tech comes around the corner like she's water skiing behind my dog who heard my voice and has the cone of shame on Luna runs out and the first thing she does is run up to one of my daughters and send her flying. And my daughter hits the floor where the scale, the dog scale is on the floor with her face. And so my daughter's screaming and has blood coming out of her nose. My dog's losing her mind and I have another child to wrangle who's just watching the whole spectacle. So we get, we get my daughter's nose stopped up, go outside. I load up the girls in their car seats because I was kind of discombobulated, I didn't have the crate width. So I put Luna in the front seat and I pull out into rush hour. Traffic. And I look over, and Luna makes eye contact with me and just starts pissing because she was so hydrated. And the whole. And I have nowhere to go because I'm in rush hour traffic now. So this dog's, like, looking me in the eyes while I'm, like, looking down, and there's just this puddle spreading through. So anyway, raisins are probably toxic to some dogs for sure. Not that one, man.
- [71:57]
Tony Peterson
That's good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. We accidentally. We came home from the bar one night with our. And our first dog was there, and we're eating grapes, and we're throwing them up in the air and catching them. They started throwing them up in the air to the Arlo. We looked at each other. We go, wait a second. Aren't grapes toxic for dogs? And we looked it up, and that's when we did the first, you know, hydrogen.
- [72:20]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [72:20]
Tony Peterson
Peroxide. Shake them up and let them blast it all out on the back lawn trick. We'd had to do that. Did it work with Arlo? Yeah. Oh, it worked.
- [72:28]
Lake Pickle
So I tried that with Luna, and she just sat there drinking that up. She's like, give me more hydrogen peroxide. Oh, like, she didn't. It didn't work.
- [72:36]
Tony Peterson
No, we've used it a couple times. We've used it a couple times. That dog Arlo had a very similar deal. We made a bunch of soup. Like, we made soup and stew and stuff all day and froze it all. And so the trash had, like, 10 different pound, like, plastic wrappers from burger and all the meat and stuff, and then two Costco chicken carcasses in there. So I took Dolly to the vet because she was, like, six months old. And I got back, and the trash is everywhere. I'm like, where are all the meat wrappers? Where are the chicken carcasses? And we go to the vet, and the vet's like, I don't know what to tell you, man. It's either gonna come out or it's not, Right?
- [73:18]
Lake Pickle
Cross your fingers and pay attention.
- [73:19]
Randall Williams
Do you guys know if that's a breed thing or a size thing? Stuff like. Cause I hear the same thing about garlic and obviously chocolate and stuff like that. Where some dogs can have no problem it, but others don't.
- [73:31]
Lake Pickle
It definitely is a toxicity thing that way.
- [73:33]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [73:33]
Unknown
Because I will say we always hear, like, grapes, like, don't touch grapes with a dog, and it's bad. But most of the stories I've heard are like yours, where it just turns out to be okay.
- [73:42]
Tony Peterson
Yeah, well, I'm Glad that you and your daughters and your dog were none the worse for wear after all that. Although your. Your the seat of your truck sounds like it got the worst of did.
- [73:55]
Lake Pickle
It was very. It was easier pee to clean up than it could have been because she was so hydrated. Which was part of the problem.
- [74:01]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [74:01]
Lake Pickle
Yeah. It was more the fact that it was like a 30 hour ordeal that cost me like a grand.
- [74:05]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [74:06]
Lake Pickle
For nothing other than my wife making that huge mistake and putting my dog in danger.
- [74:12]
Tony Peterson
Yeah.
- [74:12]
Lake Pickle
I would like to say gotcha.
- [74:14]
Tony Peterson
Well, I'm glad. Glad that it all turned out all right.
- [74:17]
Lake Pickle
It did.
- [74:19]
Tony Peterson
That brings us to the end of the show, folks. Phil, do we have any final listener feedback?
- [74:24]
Randall Williams
Yeah, I thought I'd go back to some interesting comments we got during the movie club. We have Peter. He says, wow, Randall needs a hug. And Jesus, Bradley says he might cry in pity for Randall right now. Brian Lammer says, what just happened? Maryland Outdoors says JFC Randall. Josh says, tune into Meat Eater today for your existential crisis. And Ryan says, hand on face emoji. And then I, Killigan says my dog stopped wanting treats, even the highest, stinkiest reward treats and does not care about praise while training. Do you have suggestions? Thank you, gents.
- [75:04]
Lake Pickle
Never take that one.
- [75:04]
Tony Peterson
Never run into that issue before. He doesn't like any anything I would.
- [75:11]
Lake Pickle
Ask, well, what kind of dog, Right. Does it like to retrieve? Does it have a special object where it's like that toy is my toy. Like there you have to find something it cares about.
- [75:21]
Tony Peterson
Yeah. And if your dog doesn't care about anything, truly anything.
- [75:26]
Lake Pickle
Yeah.
- [75:26]
Tony Peterson
They should seek professional help because I.
- [75:29]
Unknown
Can think of some instances where the dog not wanting treats might not be a bad thing, you know.
- [75:34]
Tony Peterson
Yeah. It's double edged sword.
- [75:37]
Lake Pickle
Right.
- [75:38]
Randall Williams
Nick asks, why are there still hot dogs left?
- [75:41]
Unknown
It's a fair point.
- [75:43]
Lake Pickle
There won't be in about five minutes when we're done with this.
- [75:45]
Tony Peterson
Nick, the hot dogs came in here about 15 minutes before the show. I ate three of them before the show and started on my fourth at the beginning. And then I felt sick. I'm just going to be very forthright with the audience. I felt sick from eating too many hot dogs. Next question.
- [76:02]
Randall Williams
Phil, you know, Brody had this problem a few weeks. Spencer was in the chat and fielding questions and just throwing off the whole cadence of the listener feedback portion. He's been doing that again this whole hour. He's been answering questions for people in the chat. And so we don't have a lot of questions to pull from. So if you guys have some. This is your last chance. You got about 30 seconds here. Randall will have another hot dog while. While you get those questions.
- [76:30]
Tony Peterson
I've still got this nubbins left. It's cold. Any more questions? One, two, three. We're running out of dog week here, gang. That's a weird way to end the show. Thanks for joining us, everybody. This has been a lot of fun. I hope you enjoyed. Tony Lake. Thanks for. Thanks for stopping by. We'll see you next week on Meteor Radio live, Same place, same time. Signing off.
- [77:13]
Phil
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- [77:58]
Randall Williams
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.