Episode Summary: Ep. 711: So Are Dire Wolves Back From The Dead Or Not?

Release Date: June 2, 2025
Podcast: The MeatEater Podcast
Host: Steven Rinella
Guests: Phil (Co-host), Dr. Randall, Angela Perry, Matt James (Colossal Biosciences)

Introduction to the Dire Wolf Project

The episode delves into Colossal Biosciences' ambitious project to resurrect dire wolves, exploring the scientific, ethical, and ecological implications of bringing an extinct species back to life. Matt James from Colossal Biosciences leads the discussion, providing insights into the genetic engineering and conservation efforts involved.

Personal Anecdotes and Initial Discussions [00:00 - 05:08]

The conversation begins with light-hearted banter among the hosts, sharing personal stories and introducing themselves. Phil recounts a memorable moment during his graduation, setting a casual tone for the episode.

Dire Wolves and Pop Culture Influence [06:11 - 07:10]

Phil introduces the topic of dire wolves, referencing their portrayal in Game of Thrones and the widespread media coverage surrounding Colossal Biosciences' dire wolf project. He humorously notes the sensational headlines like "Scientists Revive Dire Wolves," highlighting the public's fascination.

Phil [07:11]: "If you did learn about that there was such a thing once upon a time called a dire wolf from Game of Thrones, which was a misleading portrayal, then you might have caught headlines... Scientists say they have resurrected the direwolf."

Scientific Breakdown of the Dire Wolf Resurrection [29:48 - 45:24]

Matt James explains the genetic similarities between gray wolves and dire wolves, emphasizing the 99.5% genetic similarity. He discusses the challenges of accurately reconstructing dire wolf genetics and the careful selection of gene edits to avoid health issues like deafness or blindness.

Matt James [37:00]: "Humans have 60% genetic similarity with a carrot. So in this world, little differences get different."

The team utilized advanced sequencing techniques to achieve 13X coverage, ensuring a robust genetic dataset. Colossal chose specific gene edits from related species to safely confer desired traits without unintended side effects.

Birth and Rearing of the First Dire Wolf Pups [50:07 - 57:09]

Steven Rinella shares the meticulous process of birthing and raising the first dire wolf pups. Due to uncertainties in gestation and development rates, they opted for cesarean sections to ensure healthy births. The pups were hand-reared to prevent human imprinting, maintaining their wild instincts.

Steve Rinella [51:29]: "We tried to avoid this 100% thing because that's really cloning. We're not creating the identical individual we sequenced."

The pups, Romulus and Remus, are now approaching adulthood, exhibiting natural behaviors such as howling and displaying flight distances that indicate strong wild instincts.

Ethical and Ecological Considerations [62:18 - 84:27]

The discussion pivots to the ethical implications of de-extinction. Phil raises concerns about potential ecological impacts and genetic contamination with existing species. Matt James counters by emphasizing the controlled environments and biosecurity measures in place to prevent negative interactions.

Steve Rinella [63:42]: "Our why is really built more around... a proof of principle need that we could show how this would work."

The team highlights their collaboration with indigenous groups, particularly the Mandan and Arikara tribes, who express interest in reintroducing dire wolves to their lands, honoring ancestral stories and enhancing conservation efforts.

Regulatory Challenges and Public Perception [87:00 - 110:25]

Steven Rinella addresses the regulatory hurdles faced by de-extinction projects. He criticizes media misrepresentation and underscores the importance of habitat restoration alongside genetic efforts. The conversation touches on historical conservation successes and failures, advocating for a balanced approach that integrates new technologies while respecting ecological dynamics.

Steve Rinella [90:13]: "The pendulum swung all the way where now it's, you know, any change is bad."

Phil draws parallels with other conservation projects like black-footed ferret recovery, emphasizing the potential benefits and risks of introducing genetically edited species into the wild.

Future Prospects and Conclusion [111:10 - End]

The episode concludes with a forward-looking perspective. Colossal Biosciences is expanding its conservation projects beyond dire wolves, including efforts to protect the American red wolf and developing technologies for habitat restoration and disease resistance in endangered species.

Steve Rinella [116:30]: "We have 45 of these projects ongoing. ... These are not a distraction of resources from places where you would normally give money to WWF."

Phil reflects on the broader impact of de-extinction on public awareness and conservation funding, acknowledging both the controversies and the educational value of such projects.

Phil [130:27]: "It's a pot stirrer, dude. But it made everybody smarter."

Key Takeaways

• Genetic Similarity: Dire wolves are 99.5% genetically similar to gray wolves, with careful gene editing to ensure health and viability.
• Controlled Rearing: The pups are raised in secure environments to maintain wild instincts and prevent human imprinting.
• Ethical Considerations: De-extinction projects must balance scientific advancement with ecological responsibility and ethical stewardship.
• Regulatory Hurdles: Navigating governmental regulations and public perception is crucial for the success of reintroduction efforts.
• Conservation Integration: De-extinction serves as a tool to enhance broader conservation initiatives, providing additional resources and awareness.

Notable Quotes

• Phil [07:11]: "If you did learn about that there was such a thing once upon a time called a dire wolf from Game of Thrones, which was a misleading portrayal, then you might have caught headlines... Scientists say they have resurrected the direwolf."

• Matt James [37:00]: "Humans have 60% genetic similarity with a carrot. So in this world, little differences get different."

• Steve Rinella [51:29]: "We tried to avoid this 100% thing because that's really cloning. We're not creating the identical individual we sequenced."

• Steve Rinella [63:42]: "Our why is really built more around... a proof of principle need that we could show how this would work."

• Steve Rinella [87:00]: "The pendulum swung all the way where now it's, you know, any change is bad."

• Phil [130:27]: "It's a pot stirrer, dude. But it made everybody smarter."

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the dire wolf resurrection project, blending scientific insights with ethical discussions and highlighting the potential role of de-extinction in modern conservation efforts.