Ep. 725: Dispatches from Africa - Steve's in Tanzania!

Summary

Episode Summary: Ep. 725 – Dispatches from Africa – Steve's in Tanzania!

Release Date: July 3, 2025
Host: Steven Rinella (MeatEater)
Guests: Hunters and conservation experts from Robin Hurt Safaris

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1. Introduction to Tanzania and Luganzo Tong Game Reserve (01:11 - 12:29)

The episode kicks off with the hosts broadcasting live from Tanzania, specifically within the Luganzo Tong Game Reserve. The discussion begins with an overview of Tanzania's geographical location on the East African coast, bordered by countries like Kenya, Mozambique, Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, and Zambia.

Notable Quote:

"We are in Tanzania, which shares borders with countries such as Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, and Zambia." [02:08]

They emphasize that unlike the iconic Serengeti landscapes often depicted in wildlife documentaries, their current location offers a stark contrast with denser woodlands and varied habitats.

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2. Diverse Wildlife and Habitat Types (12:29 - 13:39)

The guests delve into the rich biodiversity of the Luganzo Tong Game Reserve. They highlight the presence of a vast array of species, including elephants, giraffes, zebras, kudus, leopards, lions, elands, sables, roans, hartebeests, and topis. This diversity underscores the ecological significance of the miombo woodlands they are navigating.

Notable Quote:

"Here you have elephants, giraffes, zebras, kudu, leopards, lions—there's a huge variety of species in here." [13:13]

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3. Land Management and Conservation Strategies (12:29 - 16:20)

The discussion transitions to land management practices within Tanzania. The hosts explain that the Tanzanian government aims to balance wildlife preservation with the monetization of land through concessions granted to safari companies and hunting operations. These concessions are managed in collaboration with the Tanzania Wildlife Research Institute (TAWIRI) and other NGOs to ensure sustainable practices.

Notable Quote:

"The concession, wildlife refuge—there’s nothing in the US that would be similar. It’s something that goes way back." [11:32]

They compare the Luganzo Tong Game Reserve to Yellowstone National Park in the US, highlighting its expansive size and the government's role in enforcing conservation through regulated hunting quotas. The quota system is based on scientific research, ensuring that hunting remains sustainable and beneficial for both wildlife preservation and local communities.

Notable Quote:

"We have a quota that's based on research... We're only obligated to utilize 40% of the quota that we're assigned, and we seldom go over that." [14:31]

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4. Supporting Local Communities and Anti-Poaching Efforts (16:20 - 24:51)

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the relationship between conservation efforts and local communities. The hosts discuss how the revenue from hunting helps support local livelihoods, reducing the reliance on destructive practices like subsistence farming and poaching.

They emphasize the collaboration with local game wardens and the Tanzania Wildlife Management Authority. These partnerships are crucial for effective anti-poaching measures and ensuring that hunting operations do not negatively impact the environment or wildlife populations.

Notable Quote:

"Our relationship with TAWA is about cooperation. We want to do things together. Our goals are very much aligned." [24:32]

The hosts describe scenarios where they interact with local honey hunters, ensuring that all activities are permitted and do not interfere with their hunting operations. This cooperative approach fosters a sense of mutual benefit and shared responsibility for conservation.

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5. Hunting Practices and Regulations (24:51 - 25:30)

The episode delves into the specifics of hunting regulations within the game reserve. The guests highlight strict adherence to quotas and the importance of ethical hunting practices. They share insights into selecting suitable buffalo bulls—typically aged between 8 to 12 years—and the meticulous process of tracking and approaching game.

Notable Quote:

"We're looking for bulls that are in a non-breeding phase, anywhere from 8 to 12 years old. A nice old bull is what we're looking for." [28:30]

They also discuss the consequences of unethical hunting, such as the loss of tags and the impact on individual hunters' licenses, drawing parallels to similar regulations in the United States.

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6. Tracking and Hunting Strategies (25:30 - 29:22)

The hosts provide a detailed account of their hunting strategies, emphasizing the importance of tracking and understanding buffalo behavior. They explain how thick vegetation and tall grass make hunting both challenging and rewarding, requiring patience and expertise in reading animal tracks.

Notable Quote:

"Once we find a good, viable track, we're going to follow them till we find those buffalo." [26:00]

The conversation also touches on the physical demands of the hunt, including extensive mileage covered both by vehicle and on foot, to locate and approach their target without disturbing the wildlife.

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7. Future Operations and Expectations (29:22 - 29:53)

Looking ahead, the hosts outline their objectives for the upcoming days. They plan to engage with experienced trackers, who play a crucial role in successful hunts. The guests express excitement about the unique challenges and experiences that lie ahead, anticipating the thrill of encountering and hunting mature buffalo bulls.

Notable Quote:

"We're looking forward to finding that vibe and feeling that excitement when we finally track down the buffalo." [27:27]

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Conclusion

Episode 725 of The MeatEater Podcast offers an immersive glimpse into the complexities of hunting operations within Tanzania's Luganzo Tong Game Reserve. Through detailed discussions on land management, conservation, community collaboration, and ethical hunting practices, the hosts and guests provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how sustainable hunting can coexist with wildlife preservation. Not only does the episode highlight the technical aspects of tracking and hunting buffalo, but it also underscores the importance of responsible stewardship of natural resources and the vital role of local communities in conservation efforts.

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Note: Portions of the transcript containing advertisements and promotional content, such as the repeated segments by Lake Pickle promoting "Backwoods University," have been excluded from this summary to maintain focus on the core content of the episode.

Transcript

[Unknown Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Lake Pickle]

Ever wonder what happened to the hundreds of thousands of buffalo that used to call the eastern United States home? Or what caused the rise and fall of bobwhite quail? Backwoods University, hosted by me, Lake Pickle, is the latest addition to the beargrease feed on Meat Eaters Podcast Network. Together we'll seek out a deeper understanding of wildlife, wild places, and the people who dedicate their lives to conserving both. After all, you can't love what you don't understand. Search Bear grease on Apple, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. And hit that follow button to enroll in Backwoods University now.

[Unknown Guest 1]

All right, guys, we're coming at you virtually live, like damn near live from Tanzania in Africa. And if you listen to the show you heard me complain about when we have to sit on episodes for various stupid reasons that I can't explain and then release them later, these we're just releasing as they happen, as we're in In Africa Hunting with Morgan Potter from Robin Hurt Safaris. And so we're going to do little updates. Nothing major to update yet, but what we are going to do is kind of lay the set, the scene of where we're at and where we're not at. And there's a thing in when. If you study the writing process, one of the things they'll teach you is they'll teach you to go gross to close. Meaning start with a wide view and narrow in. So start us with a wide view. We're in Tanzania.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

What does that mean? What does that mean when you're looking at the African continent?

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, so Tanzania, it's on. On the east coast below Kenya, above Mozambique.

[Unknown Guest 1]

The Middle east is off to the northwest.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, north, northeast.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Oh, sorry, north.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, northeast. And then. Yeah, so you've got Kenya to the north, Mozambique to the south, and then. Yeah, I mean, Tanzania shares borders with a bunch of countries. Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda and where else? Zambia.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And one of the things that. One of the most important things I think people should understand is it. It has part of the thing that every American's heard of, including me. It has part of the Serengeti.

[Unknown Host]

Yes. Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

It's got all of the Serengeti, which is contiguous with the Masai Mara, which is Kenya's component. The border being the Mara River.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, so.

[Unknown Guest 2]

So, yeah, the Serengeti's like we were talking about. It's your, like, quintessential. You get a postcard from Africa, there's a picture of a flat top acacia on there. Lions sleeping underneath of it, big grassland in the background. Not where we are right now.

[Unknown Guest 1]

No, not where we're at. And I've remarked to you ten times over the last few days that having been like raised on those wildlife documentaries, those images that are taken in that ecosystem, I'm going to get to how different this is. But like having been raised on that, like, that's sort of an expectation you wound up having. Or I sort of felt like other than the Congo. Right. Other than the jungle. I picture like that. That's what Africa looks like.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

The flat top acacias and the open grasslands.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And it was cool because prior to us starting hunting, we got to go look at some of that stuff.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And it is like. Like you can see forever. There's like giraffes hanging out, zebras wandering by. And even I knew we were going to come hunt.

[Unknown Host]

Eat.

[Unknown Guest 1]

No, Western Tanzania. I had no idea that was going to be like this.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, right.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like I. If you showed me a picture where we're at right now, I would never in a million years guess that must be Africa.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, right.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, no, for sure. And I bet even. Even if you looked at like regular photo tourism, the number of people that would get to experience this particular type of habitat and environment like this part of Africa would be just a vanishingly small number, like 5% or less.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

You know, the bulk of tourism is centered around that northern circuit. Circuit. So north of Arusha there into the Serengeti and Goragora crater, where we were, Lake Natron, Tarangiri, These sort of areas that. Yeah, they do. They have that very quintessential like, Africa look, particularly East Africa.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And what is great. What's great about it and that stuff is this really good wildlife viewing. Because you can see so far.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 2]

You can see a long way. And then being where it is, with all that kind of volcanic activity in that part of the rift, the soil's very rich and the rainfall is quite consistent. So the game density there on those short grass plains is very high in comparison to here, where we've got comparatively poorer soils. Lot sandier soil, a lot rockier soil. And. And yeah, it's sort of a different rainfall pattern too. Consistent rain here too. But it's. It's a different kind of pattern to there.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

And as a consequence, the game densities are just very different and the species are very different. You know, a lot of that stuff, those desert adapted species we talked about, the Gerenuk, obviously, Grant's gazelle, Thompson's gazelle. You know, those kind of species that are very water independent and some of them can go pretty much indefinitely on metabolic water. Everything out here is a little thirstier, including the species of plants.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And this is, this is like. I don't want people to get the idea that this is monotonous. It's anything but monotonous.

[Unknown Guest 2]

No, no, but.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And I'll have you walk through the different little habitat types that are here. But what do you call this that we're in right now?

[Unknown Guest 2]

So what we're in now is called miombo. Miombo woodland.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like, like it's like a woods. And what I keep remarking to Morgan is like growing up in western Michigan, when you get up in the upper sandy soils and you're just out in the woods and you got like, like scrubby little oaks and sassafras, it's very reminiscent of that in terms of the density of the trees, the height of the trees.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

But then you go over that way. I think it's that way.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And you enter this, this valley of palms, eight foot high grass. And I was joking earlier, like from someone that just. Just to go to off movie references and documentary references, you feel like you're in a Viet. Vietnam movie.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

100.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Yeah, it's very out and that stuff. And then all of a sudden you roll over the hill and you're like, dude, I'm in Michigan.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

No, it's very different stuff going on.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Absolutely.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

The diversity here is. Is one of the special things about this concession it's got with the river there. It's got those kind of.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

That riverine habitat, those flood plains crocodiles, crocodile hippos. And then you. The real special thing that you've got there is that papyrus swamp, which is. This is a massive tract of intact papyrus swamp. And then you've got the East African Sitatunga L. Which is a very specially adapted antelope to be able to survive basically its whole life in papyrus swamps.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Yeah, I think, I think too. That is kind of cool. A little bit unexpected is in certain areas around here it's like a little bit of a working landscape. Like there's, there's commercial fishermen, they'll use dugout canoes, fishing, some of that stuff.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

For a couple more weeks there's guys out collecting wild honey. Yep, that'll be out here for a couple more weeks. I mean like very widely dispersed. But you see, it's not like just fantasy land. Like, you see like ways in which people use the landscape To. To get their living. And I know that brings up a lot of complications around poaching and other things, but it's like it's. It's inhabited in a way. Very sparsely, but it's inhabited.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

There's no permanent settlement in here, but there are people that have permits. You know, as you saw today when we ran into the honey guys. Right. We stopped and checked their permits, make sure their paperwork's all square.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

And we don't have a problem with that. You know, we're about to. These game reserves being a livelihood generator for local communities, obviously there's the benefits that they get from some revenue retention from hunting and our operations, but we don't want to keep people out of here entirely. We just. It has to be controlled and it has to be managed so that fisheries very carefully controlled. Us, in conjunction with Tanzania Wildlife Management Authority, we're constantly making sure that. That fishing is being done the right way. You know, not illegal nets being used, other illegal methods, you know, such as netting off the whole river or coming into the game reserve waters themselves. And that's really important to make sure those fish have a sort of safe spawning ground and a bit of a reservoir. So they can. Then those waters that are getting fished commercially can be kind of restocked by those game reserve waters. So it's beneficial to the fishermen to adhere to those rules too. And then, yeah, the honey hunters, it's the same thing as long as they're not interfering with our operations, and as long as they're not, you know, delving into other unlawful activities while they're here. We're very tolerant of that and we want to support those livelihoods and see people do.

[Unknown Host]

Well.

[Unknown Guest 1]

There's. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like there's like sort of like three types of types of land management here, which isn't totally dissimilar to something you'd find in the US where you have national parkland.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Unknown Guest 1]

That doesn't have any of those activities on it.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Zero.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And it's just like. It's just like photo tourism.

[Unknown Host]

Mh.

[Unknown Guest 1]

We're near a national park, and roughly how many acres or how many square miles is the national park that's near here?

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, it's a pretty big one. I'd say it's somewhere in that thousand square mile kind of range.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And Morgan mentioned to me when we got here that last year, the thousand square mile national park, which. What's it called? It's called Ugala National park, had 14 visitors.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

So if you're looking for very quiet national park.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

I mean, I, yeah, again, like, I'll, I'll chill for Ogala national park all day. People should make a visit. It'd be great. But it, but it shows you.

[Unknown Guest 1]

It's so remote.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, it's so remote. And again, for your average tourist who's not. Who wants to see the Big five, Right. And a million wildebeest in a day, this isn't the place to come. You're not going to see that. You know, even, even us driving around today and it's been a bit of a, you know, we've been pretty focused on going places where buffalo hang out today. You know, we haven't been going to a lot of areas where you'll find a big diversity of species. So that's why it's kind of been a quiet day in that sense. But I mean, you can have days like this where, you know, the miombo is just a bit sterile sometimes.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Well, one, I think I should clarify, and I've told you this, like a thing that drew me to wanting. That drew me to wanting to hunt Cape buffalo is. It's, it's the kind of thing you like, get in there and shake hands with. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, like, you get in that thick stuff with it and they're like, they're dangerous and it just like, that was exciting to me. It's like being in there. So I don't mind the thickness. It's just, it's just different than what I saw in the other part. But to get back to this land management thing, so you have a national park which is kind of like, like for Americans to picture. Like picture a national park in the US Very similar model.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Very similar model.

[Unknown Guest 1]

What. What is very different would be the game, like a concession or wildlife refuge? Like, I can't think maybe you can. I can't think of a way to explain that with an American analogy.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, it.

[Unknown Guest 2]

There's nothing in the US that would be like similar. That would be. Yeah, that would be a good kind of analog for this. It's, it's something that, it goes way back. So we're in a. There's. And within that category there's sort of subcategories. Right. So where we were in Masailand is, is called a game controlled area. M. So that's got looser rules around land use. There can be some permanent settlement there. There can be some seasonal sort of settlement. There can be livestock grazing. There can be a few other Activities that would not be acceptable here, given that this is a game reserve. And then you've got a couple of below game controlled area, you've got a couple of other tiers too that are even more kind of loose as far as what's allowed in there land use wise from local people. But we're very lucky that this area has been designated a game reserve by the Tanzanian government.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Luganzo.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Luganzo Tong Game Reserve is, is the full name of it. And it's. Yeah, it's, it's a magnificent piece of ground.

[Unknown Guest 1]

This is the size of Yellowstone National Park.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Y. Yeah, roughly the same size. Yeah, it's a, it's a huge chunk of ground. And yeah, just having that legal protection from the government gives us the ability to really make sure that those more destructive forms of land use, like livestock grazing, which isn't in of itself inherently destructive necessarily, it's just that here where there's such a big predator population that inevitably leads to conflict and that can, and that, you know, the predators can come off badly from that. You know, cutting trees is something we don't want to see here. This is a very important piece of intact woodland that's really supporting a lot of different species in the miombo and the kind of miombo edges. So we want to see that intact.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Yeah, just to, just to touch on that for a minute for people is like here you have elephant, giraffe, zebra. I mean like here.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like if you sat here, you could watch go by elephant, giraffe, zebra, kudu, leopards.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Lions.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Lions, yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Eland, sable, roan, harder beast, topi. I mean there's, there's a huge variety of species in here.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And for how big it is, you guys take. So like, for how big it is, you guys kill such a small amount of animals that I feel like it's like, it's like from a management perspective, it's effectively equivalent to a park.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, it is.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like, it's not like, it's, it's, you know, it's like very selective. Like you, you're explaining me here, you guys are only allowed to kill male specimens of anything, right?

[Unknown Guest 2]

Exactly.

[Unknown Guest 1]

You know, and it's like really small numbers, like a few of these, A few of those.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, it's a handful of species and we've, we've managed it that way deliberately. One of the great things about the Tanzanian system is we get a quota that's based on research. So right now we're actually working with tawiri, which is The Tanzania Wildlife Research Institute and some other sort of outside NGOs to do a study on predators in this area. Predators want. Including ones we can't hunt.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Like wild dogs, for example, which are entirely protected. So we're trying to get a handle on how many predators we've got here, which can better inform our offtake. And the great thing is, we're only obligated to utilize 40% of the quota that we're assigned, and we seldom go over that on any given site.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Oh, they want you to use 40%?

[Unknown Guest 2]

That we're mandated to use 40%. We're mandated to pay for 40%. So we get it. Assigned a quota, but we have to utilize 40%. And we rarely go over 40%.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Lake Pickle]

Ever wonder what happened to the hundreds of thousands of buffalo that used to call the eastern United States home? Or what caused the rise and fall of Bobwhite quail? Backwoods University, hosted by me, Lake Pickle, is the latest addition to the Bear Grease Feed on Meat Eaters podcast network. Together we'll seek out a deeper understanding of wildlife, wild places, and the people who dedicate their lives to conserving both. After all, you can't love what you don't understand. Search Bear grease on Apple, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast, and hit that follow button to enroll in Backwoods University. Now.

[Unknown Guest 1]

The land we're on just. I keep trying to make analogies to the U.S. yeah, you could wind up thinking of it like. Like, in a way, you could think of it like national forest land. Meaning we're on land that's owned by the federal government in Tanzania.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Correct.

[Unknown Guest 1]

The federal government in Tanzania has two objectives. Like preserve wildlife.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Correct.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like create wildlife habitat. Preserve wildlife, but also monetize the landscape.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Absolutely.

[Unknown Guest 1]

So they're able to monetize this huge chunk of ground simultaneously preserving wildlife by auctioning off these blocks.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Correct.

[Unknown Guest 1]

To a safari company or however you put like a. Like a hunting guide in operation. Then they come in and say, okay, you. You operate within this piece of land. Our biologists will do some sort of assessment of what's there.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

You're allowed this level of take. And then besides that, you. Besides that you're paying a fee to utilize the land, they're then saying, every animal that comes off the money is in our pocket.

[Unknown Guest 2]

That's correct.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And it applies like a big value to the wildlife. And there's something that you had said that kind of, like, helps me, because this is all very new to me, but there's a comment you made that helps me think about it is I was, I was talking to you about like you guys eat a lot of game. You know, like every night we eat game from stuff you guys clients have gotten. And I was saying, well, when you guys want something to eat, can you just go get what you want to eat? And you're saying like at this point it's too valuable. Yeah, like that stuff, those animals are all assigned value by the government.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yep, absolutely.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

It makes no sense for us to utilize them that way. They're, they're far too valuable. So yeah, that quota we do have and that we do intend to utilize, we're saving it exclusively for, for you know, for our clients and that.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And like the value of the animals is. That's something that's set by the government, correct? Right.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

In a place can upcharge or not, but that's what they expect to see.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

They have their, their fixed amount that they want for each one of those species, which is great because the trophy fee, you know, to really like simplify it, big broad brush terms, the trophy fee pays for the conservation.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

And that's. And the beauty of these areas is out here, you know, as you've seen driving in here, really there's a couple of little things like there's a bit of mining, there's a bit of forestry going on in these areas and there's some kind of more larger scale agriculture. But in general the, the big competing land use here is subsistence farming, which is so, it's so marginal and so destructive. So for the government to have the foresight to say this area, if we protect it, is going to be something that generates revenue not just for central government, but for local communities as well, which can offset some of that need for constant subsistence farming. But aside from that, it also is something that's like infinitely renewable. You know, this doesn't, aside from our efforts to preserve the area, which is all kind of baked into to our costs, you know, it's a, it's a cost to doing business putting in these roads, you know, maintaining the area so that it's accessible and we can conduct anti poaching, we can conduct our safaris efficiently. Aside from all that, the government doesn't need to invest in these areas really. I mean they, they have a budget and they do do a lot to, to help support us in protecting the area. And that's kind of something we do together. But in general it's not a high investment thing, but it's got a Very good return.

[Unknown Guest 1]

You, you returned me to something I was trying to do. I want to, I want to talk about anti poaching in our, in our game warden that we're hanging out with.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

But I wanted, I was talking about those three use types.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

I was saying like national park, which would be very similar to what American would imagine. A national park would be a concession, which is different than what you'd picture. And then the third category being like sort of like un. An undesignated landscape that. And this is going to be very weird to Americans is like an undesignated landscape that has like very unregulated subsistence farming activities.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Meaning it's like, like if you, if you go back and imagine the, the. If you go back and imagine the American frontier of the Appalachian region in 1770. 1780.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

It's like, like, like in Boone and guys like that. It's basically what they did.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

They just kind of go into a place.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Chop a bunch of stuff down, burn stuff, grow a crop, deplete the soil, bump along, grow a corn crop and. And it's kind of. It's still like that. Like you just have like communities.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And I can see that if you didn't have. And flying over it. You see they're gigantic. You see geometrical shapes.

[Unknown Host]

Yes.

[Unknown Guest 1]

That are gigantic though. It'd be like you're looking like for as far as you can see. You see a straight line and it winds up being where stuff is. Slash and burn.

[Unknown Host]

Ag. Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And livestock grazing. And it comes up to like a game reserve. And then it's like. Then it's like wilderness.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And then, you know, 10 minutes later or whatever, five minutes later, you fly over the other edge and it goes back to like slash and burn aggression and livestock grazing.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

That's one of the issues that we have is that there isn't really a buffer anymore. You know, it's that that human kind of activity is right up against our boundaries, which is a, Is an opportunity and you know, and a sort of risk. The risk is if, if those communities aren't being properly served, if they're really struggling, there's always that temptation for encroachment as far as pushing livestock in here, pushing agriculture in here, poaching activities like that. But if those communities are properly served, they can be great partners for conservation too. They can really help us out in protecting these areas long term. Policing outsiders that might be coming in looking to do criminal activity and a great source of, you know, of employees and People that we can just generally cooperate with. So we see that not in such a negative light. It presents both an opportunity and risk. And we're just always trying to tweak our operations and adjust our kind of posture to where those communities are on side. They're seeing the benefits and they're working with us rather than. We're kind of, like, at odds.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Let's touch on another. Another aspect, then.

[Unknown Host]

We'll kind of.

[Unknown Guest 1]

We'll close up with what our objective is going to be over the next few days. But here's another aspect that would, like, blow Americans minds. We're in a. What anybody would define as a wilderness area.

[Unknown Host]

Yep. Okay.

[Unknown Guest 1]

You guys have. You call them roads. You guys have trails.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like, if you didn't tend to this in two years, it's gone.

[Unknown Guest 2]

It's gone.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

So you guys have a trail network, you have a camp, you have vehicles.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

So what the Tanzanian government's able to do is they're able to put a law enforcement officer, like a game warden.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

With you in your truck.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

So his responsibility is, like, what are you up to? But also you provide, like, the infrastructure and transportation for him to then patrol the wilderness. And, like, today we went out and ran into some dudes doing wild honey. And like, the guy with us who's carrying an AK47.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like, asked them for their honey license, which he produces out of his pocket.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And checks his paperwork, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And it's just like, it'd be like if someone said, like, hey, while you're hunting in the U.S. if someone said, hey, while you boys are elk hunting, do you mind giving our game warden a ride around so he can see what's going on? You know, just be like. It's like completely like.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

It's impossible to picture, but it's like such a different but interesting system.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like, you make it possible for. For wildlife law enforcement to occur in this area.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And otherwise it probably wouldn't.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we.

[Unknown Host]

And.

[Unknown Guest 2]

And that's always been a big thing for us. Our relationship with tawa, which is the agency that he comes from, is about cooperation. We want to do things together. Our goals are very much aligned. When our business works, their revenue looks good, and their outcomes, as far as wanting to see habitat restoration and stable or growing numbers of wildlife and intact wilderness, they're meeting their goals, too. So very much everything we do here is in collaboration with them. Right down to. I mean, and, you know, right down to the fact that. Yeah. The relationship with him's not adversarial. I'm not like jumps out, looks for trash. Yeah, he's jumping. He's really keen, he's really invested in our success because that's where, that's where their bread's butted.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Unknown Guest 2]

And then even our anti poaching patrols behind the scenes, that's done totally in cooperation with Tawa as well. That's a joint venture between us and them to everyone's mutual benefit. So. Yeah, that's one of the really nice things here. These law enforcement guys to us, they're not like the fun stoppers, you know, they're there to help us.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Another fun one that I think would be just surprising. I, I can think of one example in the U.S. i'm sure there's more but like there's some unit, there's some black bear units in Alaska where if you hit the bear, that's your tag.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Okay. You touch the bear, that's your tag.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Here. If you wing it.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

That's, yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Comes off your license. Wounded, Lost.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And that's like, that's, that's the hunter's chance. There's no being like, well, let's go get another one.

[Unknown Guest 2]

No, no, no. I mean there are things where you have multiples on license but, but, but you're still paying for that first one.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

And so that's another great reason to do your, do your practice.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Take it before you come. Take your time and if you don't feel good, you know, don't pull the trigger. That's a big one. I can, I can bring my, my clients right up to that point, but once, once it comes to pressing that trigger, that's all on you. So. Yeah, but we won't have any issues there.

[Unknown Guest 1]

I don't plan on it. Okay, so explain where, how this is going to play out over the next few days like as we try to get a buffalo.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Unknown Guest 2]

So yeah, we're early season here. The cover's still really thick. A lot of thick vegetation, a lot of tall grass. So that's kind of got a double edged quality to it where we, we're gonna, it's gonna make it easier for us to sneak up on them, but it's gonna make it harder for us to find them. So we're really focusing on finding tracks and that means getting up early well before dawn, transiting through those less productive areas and getting to kind of buffalo hot spots which at the moment is these little valleys that kind of feed down to the Ugala river and those Those valleys hold buffalo, and in there we have roads that kind of transect them. A lot of those roads, unfortunately, right now are still pretty wet. So that's why a lot of walking today, just trying to kind of find those tracks on foot. But in an ideal world, we'd cut those tracks where they've crossed one of our roads or where they've come from water, or we'll find them on foot if need be. And once we find a good, viable track, you know, this morning we had a bit of an issue with. There was tracks mixed in with other tracks, and the buffalo had been feeding and a herd had crossed over the bulls, and then the bulls had crossed back over the herd. And it was just extremely difficult to sort out to where it didn't seem like a good use of time. But eventually, if we keep at it, we're going to find a set of tracks where there'll be some feeding, but then we'll see where they've lined out to go look for shade and look for a place to lay down and ruminate during the day, and we're going to get on those tracks and follow them till we find those buffalo.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Yeah, that's part that excites me, man.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, it's gonna be.

[Unknown Guest 1]

It's so hard to picture.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Oh, and it's. It's a different feeling. I mean, it's been cool today to look for tracks, old tracks and different tracks, but when you're on a track that's really got some substance to it, like you've got something to really chew on, and you see eyes are on it and they're following it and they're engaged, that's a different feeling. And I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to feeling that vibe.

[Unknown Guest 1]

It's kind of take a stab out here. How many miles might you cover today?

[Unknown Guest 2]

It really depends on what you're doing, but I bet. And some of these days we'll do 100, 120 miles in the car, and then, you know, probably. Oh, all on trails, and then anywhere from 4 to 20 on foot, just depending on how. Where we end up and how close we can get the car to come pick us up. Yeah, we were kind of lucky today. We did a few miles and we were able to get the cars in front of us to where we didn't have to walk back to the rigs. So that was really helpful, but it's not a guarantee.

[Unknown Guest 1]

That was a good trial run.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, it was a good dry run.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

I wish we'd picked up some fresher tracks in there. But if we keep at this, it's going to work.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And final, last thing we're looking for, like, we're looking for bulls.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

That are like at the end of their life.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, exactly. And. And they're in a non breeding phase. So we're looking for bachelor solitary bulls or bulls that are in the company of a couple of other bulls outside of the herd. So they're in a non breeding phase.

[Unknown Guest 1]

And they might be how old?

[Unknown Guest 2]

I'm anywhere from 8 to 12. You know, 12 would be the extreme upper end. And then sort of an 8, 9 year old would be right in that sweet spot that we want.

[Unknown Guest 1]

You know, that's very similar to is. Is like doll sheep. Oh, really?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Oh, interesting. So that's kind of when they're coming to the end of a lot of doll sheep.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Like 12 is like really old.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 1]

10 is kind of the sweet spot. The nice for a big ram.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Yeah, for sure.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest 2]

A nice old bull is what we're looking for. And we're going to find him. He's out here.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Yeah. All right, we'll keep coming, we'll keep dropping more things and we'll cover all kinds of different aspects. We're going to talk to trackers, who are the stars of the show.

[Unknown Guest 2]

Oh, absolutely. 100 trackers, 100%.

[Unknown Guest 1]

Probably won't talk to any camera guys. It's been proposed, but I don't think we're gonna do that. We'll think of all kinds of interesting things to talk about. Stay tun.

[Lake Pickle]

Ever wonder what happened to the hundreds of thousands of buffalo that used to call the eastern United States home? Or what caused the rise and fall of bobwhite quail? Backwoods University, hosted by me, Lake Pickle, is the latest addition to the Bear Grease feed on Meat Eaters podcast network. Together we'll seek out a deeper understanding of wildlife, wild places, and the people who dedicate their lives to conserving both. After all, you can't love what you don't understand. Search beargrease on Apple, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast and hit that follow button to enroll in Backwoods University.

[Unknown Host]

Now, this is an iHeart podcast.