Ep. 733: Dispatches from Africa - Anti-Poaching With A Side Of Black Mamba

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast
Episode Summary: Ep. 733 - Dispatches from Africa: Anti-Poaching With A Side Of Black Mamba
Release Date: July 15, 2025

In Episode 733 of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella delves into the critical issue of poaching in Africa, specifically focusing on anti-poaching efforts in Tanzania. Joining him is Joash Vomo, affectionately known as JJ, who works with Robin Hurt Safaris on community development projects and anti-poaching initiatives. Their conversation provides an in-depth look into the complexities of wildlife conservation, community engagement, and the challenges posed by formidable predators like the black mamba.

1. Understanding Poaching in Tanzania

Types and Motivations of Poaching

Joash Vomo begins by clarifying common misconceptions about poaching in Tanzania. Unlike the prevalent image of large-scale poaching for elephant ivory and rhino horns, much of the poaching in the region is driven by subsistence needs. However, there remains a significant threat from poachers targeting elephants and, historically, rhinos.

"In Tanzania, poaching is largely for subsistence, but there are still big poachers after elephants, though rhinos have been poached out in this area since the 70s and 80s." [04:34]

Methods of Poaching: Snares and Muzzle Loaders

The discussion highlights the prevalent use of snares constructed from wire, typically placed near water sources to trap large game such as buffalo. These snares are designed with large loops capable of ensnaring sizeable animals.

"They use wire, placing it close to water holes and riverbeds with a large loop that can trap animals as big as a buffalo." [06:46]

Additionally, Joash explains the use of traditional muzzle loaders, often inherited from historical conflicts like World War I, which poachers use to illegally hunt wildlife.

"Some poachers use old muzzle loaders handed down from World War I, which they developed the skills to operate from their ancestors." [07:29]

2. Anti-Poaching Patrols and Enforcement

Patrolling Strategies and Procedures

Joash describes the rigorous patrol routines, typically lasting 30 days, conducted by teams comprising government game scouts. These scouts are the only ones authorized to apprehend and detain poachers for up to 24 hours before handing them over to authorities.

"During our patrols, we work with government game scouts who can apprehend poachers and present them to the authorities within 24 hours." [09:17]

Legal Consequences for Poachers

The conversation outlines the severe penalties for poaching, especially of protected species like giraffes—the national animal of Tanzania. Convictions can result in substantial prison sentences, emphasizing the government's strong stance against wildlife crimes.

"A punishment for poaching giraffes can be close to 20 years in jail." [10:25]

3. Rehabilitation and Community Engagement

Reforming Former Poachers

One of the cornerstone strategies discussed is the rehabilitation of former poachers, including youths as young as 14 or 15. By educating and providing them with alternative career opportunities within anti-poaching units, these individuals are reintegrated into the community as protectors rather than predators.

"We educate and rehabilitate them, offering roles in our anti-poaching units, which provides a legal and beneficial alternative to poaching." [12:55]

Community-Based Conservation Initiatives

Joash elaborates on the concept of community-based conservation, where tangible benefits such as building schools, health dispensaries, and water wells are provided to local communities. These projects foster a sense of ownership and encourage communities to actively participate in wildlife protection.

"We build schools, health dispensaries, and water wells to ensure communities see the direct benefits of conserving wildlife." [14:18]

Impact on Community Attitudes

The efforts have largely been successful, with communities developing a positive outlook towards wildlife and conservation. While a few individuals continue traditional poaching practices, the majority support and participate in safeguarding their natural environment.

"Most communities are very receptive and supportive of our conservation efforts, though a few still cling to traditional poaching practices." [15:49]

4. Conservation Challenges: The Black Mamba

Encounters with Black Mambas

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing the black mamba, one of Africa’s most feared snakes. Joash recounts rare but intense encounters with these highly aggressive and territorial serpents.

"Black mambas are very aggressive and can even chase cars. On a typical week, I’ve encountered two, and one chased our vehicle." [19:00]

Safety and Respect for Black Mambas

Despite their fearsome reputation, Joash emphasizes the importance of respecting these creatures to avoid fatal encounters. He shares personal anecdotes of near misses and explains how locals react to the presence of black mambas.

"If startled or threatened, a black mamba will relentlessly pursue you, making respect and caution essential when in their territory." [19:24]

Comparative Analysis with Other Wildlife

Drawing parallels to North American wildlife, Joash compares the black mamba to the grizzly bear, highlighting the differing local perceptions and responses to these powerful animals.

"While people in the Rockies are familiar with grizzly bears and handle them with a certain calm, in Tanzania, the black mamba commands a more fearsome respect." [22:07]

5. Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reinforced message on the importance of community involvement in effective conservation efforts and the ongoing challenges posed by both poaching and dangerous wildlife like the black mamba. Joash Vomo’s insights provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the intricate balance between human needs and wildlife preservation in Tanzania.

"By partnering with communities and providing tangible benefits, we ensure that protecting wildlife also protects and benefits the people who live alongside them." [14:18]

Overall, Episode 733 offers a comprehensive exploration of anti-poaching strategies, community development, and the interaction between humans and some of Africa's most formidable wildlife, all conveyed through engaging dialogue and firsthand experiences.

Transcript

[Joash Vomo]

This is an I heart podcast. Foreign.

[Unknown Host]

Welcome to FOP4 of our dispatches from Africa. I'm joined here to talk about poaching in Africa and anti poaching efforts in Africa with Joash Vomo.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Known as JJ around these parts, who works with Robin Hurt Safaris on community development projects and anti poaching efforts. And we're going to talk a little bit about how those two things actually have something to do with. With each other. Before we get into that subject, I want to remind everyone right now we have the. The raffle is open. The window to buy raffle tickets is open for our annual TRCP fundraiser turkey hunt. For many years now, we run a raffle and we pick a winner. And that winner brings along a friend to go turkey hunting with me and the Honest Patelis. When you win, you and your friend, we cover your airfare. We hook you up with any gear you might need for the trip. We cover the price of your turkey tag. We cover food, lodging, everything. We pay. You don't. You don't pay anything. We pay everything for you guys to come turkey hunt. You'll spend three nights with us. We'll have two full days of turkey hunting. We do it every year. We bounce around different spots we want to hunt. We always have a ton of luck. The raffle is open from now to the end of July. All the expenses for the turkey hunt are covered by a donor. A buddy of mine covers all the expenses. All of the raffle ticket money goes directly to TRCP. And TRCP's you know, their slogan again is guaranteeing Americans quality places to hunt and fish. All the money stays on mission when you buy a raffle ticket. The recent public lands fight that we lived through, TRCP was front and center in getting that squared away and leading us to a big victory in that battle. So get your raffle tickets now back to subject. You Joash, You're Tanzania born?

[Joash Vomo]

Yes, I'm a Tanzanian. Okay. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

How did you ever get into the career that you're in? What led you down that path?

[Joash Vomo]

I started out in community development. I joined Robin Hart Redlife foundation as an intern. Yeah, like 12 years ago. So we were doing community projects in the communities that surround the areas that Robin Hood Safaris has for hunting. So that's how I got in. And also I did. I was doing also anti poaching patrols, mostly in this area. I've done quite a bit of patrols.

[Unknown Host]

So you've been doing patrols here for 12 years?

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah, I've been doing it, yeah. For A while, yes.

[Unknown Host]

In, in the U.S. when we hear poaching in Africa, right. Nine out of 10 people, their mind goes to elephant ivory and rhino horns.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

How is that accurate? I mean, in what ways is it a more complicated picture than that? But that is what people think when they hear those words.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah. Of course, largely the poaching in Tanzania is just for subsistence, but then you have the big poachers who go for the elephants and the rhinos. Of course, there's not any more rhinos left in this area. They've been poached out. Yeah, but that was in the 70s and 80s. There has been elephant poaching, but we haven't had any incident for the last 10 years. We haven't had any incident with elephant poaching. And also the government really came down hard on elephant poaching and rhino poaching.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So what is poaching today that you deal with?

[Joash Vomo]

Well, poaching today what we deal with is mostly for, I can say there's a market for game meat, which is usually buffalo or any animal that they can get on a snare. And there's a belief, like in giraffe meat, that it has some healing capabilities. So then there's a market also for that, but it's usually for the meat. That's what most of the poachers go for. It's like a black market, you know, so they hunt and they poach and they sell the meat to various places. In a black market. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Is it common that you'd be able to go into a city or a town in Tanzania and if you looked around, you would find game animals for sale in the open, or is it more discreet?

[Joash Vomo]

No, it is very, very discreet. Yeah, they don't do it in the open. A few years ago, the opened up game meat butcheries so that to give the local people a chance to get an animal legally, there are places where the locals can go and hunt. They get a permit, they go with a government game scout and they can hunt an animal. And if you have the license, then you can sell it. But it's not that much. It's very rare. So most of the game meat is sold very discreetly and to a select number of people who I think the poachers have some sort of relationship with.

[Unknown Host]

We've, in the time I've been hanging around here, I've heard a number of people mention snaring.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

In the US and in most states you can set, you can set snares for fur bearing animals. It's Very regulated.

[Joash Vomo]

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You guys are talking about a type of snaring that is more meant to just. Well, one, to catch, like large game, big game animals. To catch meat animals.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

How are the snares employed? What are they made of? What does it look like? When you encounter a snare setup.

[Joash Vomo]

They use wire, so they put it close to water holes and on riverbeds. So it's a wire that's round. And then the animal goes in, it starts to tighten up.

[Unknown Host]

Show me how big they make the loop.

[Joash Vomo]

The loop can be quite big. You know, it can be like. It's. It's big. It's. It's like this big. So even a buffalo head can go.

[Unknown Host]

So you can snare. Yeah, they'll snare something that big.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah, they can. Yeah, they can do that.

[Unknown Host]

And then you also. I hear guys talk about a muzzle loader.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Now we can buy a muzzle loader. Yeah, right at the store.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

These are not store about muzzle loaders.

[Joash Vomo]

No, no, they're not. Usually you find that a lot of the people with muzzle loaders, they got the skill down from their grandparents. So they can make one and they use like a piece of metal this big and put it in there like a bullet, and they have gunpowder and they shoot it out. Others have some very old, very old muzzle loaders, which I believe that they got from, you know, a lot of people from this area during the First World War. They were used as fighting during the First World War. During the First World War in Africa on this side. So they were part of the German local army. And later on they became the King's African Rifles. So some of them came back home with the muzzle orders.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, my God.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah. And so it got handed down. And those are still being used. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you find them from time to time.

[Unknown Host]

So when you're. You're out on patrol and you guys will do 30 day patrols.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

And in this area you're patrolling. I keep telling this, like to our audience, I keep trying to explain, like this, this reserve that we're on.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

It borders a large national park on one of its borders. It's a. It's a game reserve that's the size of. We have a very large famous park called Yellowstone National Park. Yeah, I've heard of the U.S. it's that size.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

You do 30 day patrols.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Let's say you. You catch somebody. Okay. You. You encounter a poacher. You encounter a guy in camp. He's got illegal, he's got snare equipment. He's got meat. Is it? Are you at liberty to make an arrest? Like, like, how do you approach the situation? What do you do when you find someone?

[Joash Vomo]

Okay. During our patrols, we have two to four government game scouts. They're the ones legally who are allowed to apprehend a person who is caught poaching or doing any. Anything illegal. So as soon as we get the guy or culprits, we have 24 hours to present him to the relevant authorities.

[Unknown Host]

You can detain him for 24 hours.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah. So what we do during the 24 hours, we'll do our best to make our way out of the area and go. And he goes to the police station and he stays there until then the evidence comes in and then it becomes a court case from there. Yeah. Yes.

[Unknown Host]

And what kind of fine? Like let's take, let's take something in the extreme. There's giraffes here.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

We see them most days.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

It's the national animal.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. So it'd be like our equivalent would be the bald eagle, our national bird. If you kill a bald eagle, you're in a ton of trouble.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

You catch a guy with, with something like that.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

What sort of like what is the punishment that. If you've got a good case and you can prove it, what would be the punishment for something like that?

[Joash Vomo]

A punishment for that is close to 20 years in jail. Okay. Yeah. Yes.

[Unknown Host]

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[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

People they hire.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Would be people that reformed poachers, maybe people, kids that start out poaching at a very young age.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You know, 14, 15 years old.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

That kind of get brought on and cultivated and given like career positions within the organization.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

What are they getting caught doing that you would. Not that they wouldn't have to go off to jail for a number of years, but that they have an opportunity to come, you know, be out in the bush and work with wildlife, but work in a productive way.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah, of course. Well, you find them, some were caught setting up snares, others you find maybe they were hauling the game meat, you know, because if, for example, they poach a buffalo, they'll stay out in the field, you know, to dry it out and everything, then put it in sacks. And so they need guys to move the sacks out. So you find kids like that.

[Unknown Host]

So you might catch a kid who's just out carrying meat.

[Joash Vomo]

And some of them don't even know if they're doing something that's illegal.

[Unknown Host]

I see.

[Joash Vomo]

So after we educate them and rehabilitate them, then we give them an opportunity so they join our anti poaching units. That's where most of the guys that you have hunting with you started from. So they start in the anti poaching unit and as they progress, they become trackers because also they are very good with the area because they've been there since they were young. And also they are very good trackers in following up, looking at the animal tracks. So it's a benefit. So you just show them that, you know, if you do it this way it's legal and it's going to benefit you and your family instead of doing this, which you might end up in jail. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's, it's the better option for them.

[Unknown Host]

Next, talk about what community development means. And, and how does community like, what is the relationship between community development and anti poaching?

[Joash Vomo]

The word that we use is community based conservation. So what we do is we help the communities in projects for them to see the actual benefits that come from protecting the wildlife. You know, the poachers come from the communities around. So if they can see a direct benefit that comes from preserving and conserving the wildlife that they have or even helping us in Finding out about the poachers, like two months ago, we got information about people with two muzzleloaders and they were caught before they could do anything. And it was because of the community informing our anti poaching units about such people. So it's projects, it's schools. We've built schools in this area. We've built health dispensaries. We are currently working on renovating one in the village that we went to in Lumbe. And we've set up water wells. We've supported children who have finished primary school, going into secondary school. So these benefits which the community can see and touch, their tangible benefits that come from them partnering with us in protecting the wildlife and the area. So that whatever that's got from hunters who come, that there's a percentage that goes back to the community. So it's a direct benefit to them. So in that way they help us in being also custodians and fellow protectors of the wildlife. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Do you find in the surrounding communities that your work in that area is benefactive? Like, do people wind up having a positive attitude toward the wild landscapes that are here?

[Joash Vomo]

Oh, yes, yes, people are very positive. But as in everything, there's always a few characters who always find a way because you find it something that they've been doing for generations and generations. To them, it's just a way of life. Poaching, illegal fishing and, you know, illegal timber harvesting. So there's still a few, you know, characters who haven't. It hasn't really gotten into their heads. But for the most part, the communities are very receptive and very supportive of what we do over here.

[Unknown Host]

I want to back up a minute. There's a thing I failed to ask you about. You just brought up. Yeah, there's a big fishing component here.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Because you're on a very large lake.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

There's a river system and there is legal fishing.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes, there is.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. But you, but you still patrol and you guys patrol and regulate the fishing. And where I live. Yeah, it would be that. We have game wardens.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Hired by the different states. And the game wardens patrol the waterways.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And it's checking licenses, checking what equipment you use, checking that you have fish you're allowed to have. You don't have too many, right?

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

They're just doing that work all the time and they interact with fishermen.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

And that sounds like very similar to what you said.

[Joash Vomo]

Basically the same thing. We also, what we do is we facilitate the government game officers so that we go with them. And also you find that we have more of a feel of the area. You know, the game. Scouts come and go, they get changed. So we have our teams with them even on the water, and they check. You have to have valid license, and we have to check the type of fish you caught. There's also the size of the net that you have so that you don't catch the small fish. So it's almost the same thing as you described. We have to do that on the lake and also on the river. And also even by doing that, it's also because poaching, if it can't come in. If they can't come in on land, then they'll come in through the water. So by having patrols, then we have a way of controlling the guys who would come and poach and then put it on a boat and go out. So it helps. Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Is there anything I missed that you feel like you should tell me about?

[Joash Vomo]

Well, not really. Morgan. Black mambas. Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Let'S talk like, Morgan Potter's not here.

[Joash Vomo]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Morgan Potter tells us all about. We got a little worked up about black mambas just from hearing about them, reading about them. He's like, you'll never see one.

[Joash Vomo]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Right away, there's a damn black mamba right in the middle of the road. How many black. Like, how many black mambas per day are you running into?

[Joash Vomo]

On a normal day, you wouldn't run into one.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. How many per week?

[Joash Vomo]

Per week. Okay. Like, for the week I've had, I've run into two. Ah. And. And one of them really chased us, you know? Yeah, it's a.

[Unknown Host]

It's a. So I didn't know, but I. I had heard of black mamas. I knew they were bad or, like, I knew there was, like, a snake to be reckoned with.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

They ride their neck up like Loch Ness monster.

[Joash Vomo]

Oh, yeah. They stand with the.

[Unknown Host]

They cruise around with their head, like, up here.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah. They can stand on their tail, like, literally stand.

[Unknown Host]

They're like an attack snake.

[Joash Vomo]

Oh, yeah, it is. It's quite aggressive. Very territorial.

[Unknown Host]

Chases people around, chases people.

[Joash Vomo]

Can even chase a car. It can even. Yeah. It can go after you.

[Unknown Host]

You'll never see one.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Here's the funniest part about it. The funniest part about. We see a black mamba.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

He, like. The black mamba, like, honestly considers attacking our car.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Like, he, like, runs through his mind. He false charges the car.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

And then goes off. And then we, like, drive off and we don't go a mile and Someone looks out the side of the road like, there's another one. And Morgan's like, no, that's a. That's a cobra.

[Joash Vomo]

Cobra, yeah. Yeah. I think if you. If you. If you had to choose, you're better off meeting a cobra than a black mamba. It's. It's. It's really. It's. We call it over here sudden death, you know?

[Unknown Host]

Sudden death.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah, sudden death. But you have traditional healers who say they can fix you up, but you are never sure about it.

[Unknown Host]

The other snake we saw that was. That seemed very benign. I mean, I know they're not, but he seemed very, like just a chill snake. We saw a puff adder.

[Joash Vomo]

Oh, yeah, he's very chill. You know, he can. You can.

[Unknown Host]

He didn't want trouble.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah. You can even step on him and he won't do anything to you. But a black mamba, you startle it or you're just, like, in its surroundings and, like, it's coming back to its hole, like, back here, it would really chase us away here.

[Unknown Host]

This one was going down the road, and we pulled up on it, and he turns and comes back toward the truck to attack the truck.

[Joash Vomo]

It's not scared of anything. Yeah. That's the truth about it.

[Unknown Host]

I got a lot of respect for him.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. But then you've been in this business 12 years. You do mega patrols out here. You do long patrols out here. You've never been struck by one.

[Joash Vomo]

Well, I wouldn't be here if I was. So proof.

[Unknown Host]

That's proof. He's never been struck by one.

[Joash Vomo]

He's alive. I've never been struck by one. We've had close calls. Earlier this year, some of our guys were chasing a poacher, and as soon as they got close to him, he turned around and was going towards the vehicle on his own because he had seen a black mamba. So when the guys got there, it stood up, and so they also started running back. And it's very rare for it to happen, but as soon as they get to the pickup, they find that there was another one close by. So it also stood up. So it was a bit of a crazy day. Luckily, no one was beaten.

[Unknown Host]

We have a similar animal in the northern. We have a mountain range called the Rocky Mountains. And in the northern end of the Rocky Mountains, we have a bear called a grizzly bear. You probably heard of grizzly bear.

[Joash Vomo]

Oh, yes.

[Unknown Host]

I found it. People that live around there.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Are generally very relaxed.

[Joash Vomo]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

They're like, sure. You see them. It doesn't mean it's gonna kill you.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You just get used to it. And then people come from far away and they go there and all they talk about is grizzly bears. And then people that live there get annoyed with them for talking about grizzly bears all the time. We're those guys. We're those guys about black mamas.

[Joash Vomo]

Oh, yeah. But. But even the people around here who live around here, that's really one snake that they're really scared of. Yeah, that's the truth. Yeah. So you can find a few brave people who are ready to confront it, but most would rather just go the other way. Yeah, it's really scary. That's the truth. There's a guy, a honey guy, that was beaten two weeks ago, because sometimes they go and stay inside a beehive. Yeah. So while he was opening it up, it struck him and he.

[Unknown Host]

How the hell does it get into the beehive?

[Joash Vomo]

It goes up. It climbs up the tree because the beehive is on top of a hole and goes inside there. It seems the bees. No, don't mind him. Don't mind it being there. So he opened it up and it struck him, and three hours later, he was. Yeah, he was dead. Yeah. And for me, three hours. I'm like, oh, okay. It took a while because it's usually 30 to 40, 45 minutes. I don't mean to lie. I know. But. Yeah, I was also surprised. Three hours. Okay. Yeah. But, yeah, so it's a very dangerous snake. They are not so many. They are very rare. And they only come out early in the morning during the day, and later in the evening, they go back. Yes. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Great. Well, thanks for the. Thanks for the conversation.

[Joash Vomo]

Okay. Thank you.

[Unknown Host]

Thank you for your efforts on behalf of wildlife. Yeah, thanks for your efforts at making us seem more chill about the black mamas. I'm actually pretty chill about the black.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah, I know.

[Unknown Host]

I like them. I don't have no problem.

[Joash Vomo]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

It'S this guy named.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

This guy named Seth running around here. It's a real baby about black mamas.

[Joash Vomo]

Yeah, I'm sure it's. It's. It's a real adrenaline. Adrenaline rush.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, they're good for that.

[Joash Vomo]

They're good for that. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

It's like bungee jumping.

[C]

This podcast is supported by BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect with via video phone or chat. Here's BetterHelp, head of clinical operations, Hes Yu Jo, discussing who can benefit from therapy. I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're, like, having panic attacks every day. But before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships, that could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody. There's always a benefit in talking to someone, because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people. So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody. Find out if therapy is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com today. That's betterhelp.com this is an I Heart podcast.