Ep. 749:

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast – Episode 749

Release Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Steven Rinella
Main Guests: Giannis “Yanni” Patelis, Brian, Ronnie Bame, Mark, Seth, Jimmy (Steven’s son), others

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Overview

This wide-ranging episode of The MeatEater Podcast centers around themes of endurance — both physical and mental — while throwing in signature doses of humor and hearty outdoor camaraderie. The primary focus is Giannis Patelis’s recent completion of the Crazy Mountain 100, a grueling 100-mile ultramarathon, with deep dives into preparation, suffering, and lessons learned. The crew also explores risk and responsibility in outdoor pursuits, the psychology of danger, and closes with a playful debate about Stormy Kromer hats. As always, the tone is irreverent, honest, and punctuated by personal stories and friendly ribbing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jimmy on the Show & Family Dynamics

Timestamps: 01:24–03:36

• Steven introduces his 15-year-old son Jimmy as a more visible show participant now that he’s old enough to have an Instagram account and learner’s permit.
• Brief, playful conversation about family rules, social media, and growing up in the Rinella household.

Quote
"Well, I mean, the kid can't hide under a rock his whole life." – Steven Rinella (02:54)

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2. Giannis’ 100-Mile Ultramarathon: The Crazy Mountain 100

Timestamps: 05:13–46:13

Race Description & Preparation

• 100 miles in Montana’s Crazy Mountains with 23,000' feet of elevation gain.
• Took 33 hours to finish, including hiking and running.
• Training involved running with a full stomach and practicing eating on the move, aiming for 80–100 grams of carbs/hr.

Quote
"My first one at that distance. I’ve done a couple 50s working up to that distance." – Giannis (07:19)

Suffering & Bodily Challenges: Chap Ass, Blisters, Nausea

• Graphic, humorous discussion about “crippling chap ass” and runners’ chafing, with practical advice on anti-chafe products like Squirrel’s Nut Butter and Body Glide.
• “GI distress” (nausea, diarrhea) as a leading cause of runners dropping out, despite training.

Quotes

• “You just can’t picture the chap ass.” – Steven (05:49)
• "Some people just suffer. Some people have debilitating chap ass." – Steven (08:14)
• "The second 50, you find out what you’re made out of." – Giannis quoting another runner (41:56)

Mental Hurdles & Support

• Hardest part: miles 75–90, with physical and emotional low points.
• Importance of pacers and positive friends to keep moving and eating.
• Taking a strategic 8-minute nap and the restorative effects.

Quotes

• "I think had I not had my buddy Steven Bruckner with me... I don’t know if I would have made it." – Giannis (15:00)
• "Anyone could do it with dedication, but you gotta want it enough to prioritize the training." – Steven Rinella (22:21)

The Finish & Recovery

• Final stretch aided by Tylenol, rap music (“Wu Tang”), and a positive mindset, overtaking other runners.
• Post-race “lounge lizard” recovery day focused on eating and resting.
• Deep satisfaction and pride, with reflection on toughness and possible improvements.

Quotes

• "At mile 75 or 80, it really rang true – the first 50 is just the ticket to see what happens in the second 50." – Giannis (41:56)
• "My goal was to finish and finish with a smile on my face, which I did." – Giannis (45:26)

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3. Dangerous Game Hunting in Africa: Cape Buffalo

Timestamps: 49:27–67:16

Risk, Allure & Ethics

• Steven recalls his recent Cape buffalo hunt, discussing the allure and real risk (“Black Death” nickname).
• Conversation about two Americans killed hunting Cape buffalo that year; group weighs the risks of dangerous game versus “normal” outdoor risks.

Quotes

• "Part of the allure is you’re hunting a thing that gets you." – Steven Rinella (50:16)
• "Otherwise, it’s kind of like you’re hunting a cow…" – Steven (50:17)

The Hunt’s Details

• Tracking and approaching buffalo in thick grass, experiencing tension but no acute fear.
• Importance of trackers' skill and knowledge.
• Stories of gunshots, animal behavior, and reflection on how stories color perceived risk.

Quotes

• "All the tension I felt was because of all the stories." – Steven (60:12)
• "Your role as a professional hunter…when it comes, that's your thing. You don’t get to flinch." – Steven Rinella (61:34)

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4. Risk, Responsibility & Family: Where’s the Line?

Timestamps: 62:44–72:11

• Brian raises a tough ethical question: Is it responsible for parents to accept risks (e.g., hunting Cape buffalo) that could leave families without them?
• Roundtable on how risk is assessed in hunting, fishing, ultrarunning, and other “adventure” pursuits.
• Comparison to extreme pursuits like climbing K2, base jumping, military service.
• Consensus: Outdoor risks are present but low compared to everyday hazards (driving, boating); most lines would be drawn at human/gang-related danger rather than animal.
• Awareness that “exciting” risks (sharks, buffalo) take up mental energy more than mundane but likely ones (boat props, car crashes).

Quotes

• "There’s no thing in hunting that is at that risk level [of K2 or combat]." – Steven Rinella (68:29)
• "Odds are you're going to get smashed by another driver before you get killed by a grizz or Cape buffalo." – Giannis (71:57)

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5. Closing Reflections: Judgement, Legacy & Unexpected Endings

Timestamps: 74:00–82:44

• Honest talk about how, if something tragic happened, the judgment of others is inevitable – “What an idiot, bringing his kid out there.”
• Stories about tragedy within their own circles (including a cameraman’s unexpected passing).
• Reflection that the things people worry about aren’t always the ones that get you.

Quote

• "There’s the things you’re obsessing over, and there’s the things that are going to get you – and they’re not the same sometimes." – Steven Rinella (83:01)

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6. Stormy Kromer Hats: Herd Mentality, Regional Styles, and Personal Change

Timestamps: 84:14–91:05

• Light-hearted, lengthy exchange about the traditional Stormy Kromer wool cap.
• Steven admits to previously teasing co-hosts about the “goofy hat” – but after buying gifts for ranching friends and wearing one himself, he’s converted.
• Explores cultural associations with hats, appropriateness by background (“rancher hat,” “egg adjacent”).
• Wrapping up with fashion opinions and inside jokes.

Quotes

• "Never wear a hat that says hello before you do." – Jimmy (91:59)
• "If you ever catch me in a cowboy hat, I would expect you to punch me." – Steven Rinella (89:25)

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Notable Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Crippling chap ass” and application strategies for anti-chafe products (06:01–10:05).
• Mark’s ribbing: “Five miles is not a short run.” (41:29)
• Tylenol and Wu Tang Clan as Giannis’ secret weapons to the finish line (35:19–35:43).
• “Odds are you’re going to get smashed by another driver…before you get killed by a grizz or Cape buffalo or a great white shark.” – Giannis (71:57)
• “Never wear a hat that has more personality than you do.” – Steven & Jimmy (91:57–91:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jimmy Joins the Show, Social Media Rules: 01:24–03:36
• Fishing Stories & Good Neighbors: 03:36–05:13
• Giannis Runs the Crazy Mountain 100: 05:13–46:13
• Risk & Hunting Cape Buffalo: 49:27–67:16
• Parenting, Risk, & Responsibility: 62:44–72:11
• Unexpected Tragedy & Legacy: 74:00–82:44
• Stormy Kromer Hats Debate: 84:14–91:05

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Tone & Language

• Unfiltered, good-natured, and inclusive, with lots of ribbing, banter, and honest admissions about pain, suffering, and pride.
• Language is conversational and occasionally graphic—especially about the “realities” of endurance running.
• The camaraderie and warmth of the group sets a supportive, if irreverent, tone throughout.

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Summary

This episode offers a fascinating, entertaining, and at times touching tour through the physical and mental demands of outdoor adventure. Whether it’s running 100 miles, hunting dangerous game, or debating the merits of a wool cap, Steven and his crew reflect on what it means to test limits and accept risk—both for oneself and loved ones. The show’s strength is in its blend of raw honesty, humor, and the quiet inspiration of doing difficult things just to see what you’re made of.

Best Audience:
Anyone interested in hunting, running, the outdoors, or real conversations about risk and resilience—with plenty of laughs and a dash of hat fashion talk for good measure.

Transcript

[Brian]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Jake Hofer]

You've got the land, you've got the deer. But the season's closing in and your mind's racing with more questions than answers. I'm Jake Hofer and this is back 40, a limited series show on Wire to Hunt, part of Meat Eaters Podcast Network. Each episode I'll be asking eight whitetail hunting pros a focused, thought provoking question about hunting and land management. How do I hunt the best part of the farm with less than ideal access?

[Steven Rinella]

Should you? That's what the real question is. Stand without good access is not a good stand.

[Jake Hofer]

Search Wire to Hunt and hit that follow button to listen to back 40 now.

[Steven Rinella]

This is the Meat Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless.

[Ronnie Bame]

We hunt with the Meat Eater podcast.

[Steven Rinella]

You can't predict anything.

[Ronnie Bame]

Brought to you by first light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out@first light.com. that's F I R S T L-I-T.com. welcome, everybody.

[Steven Rinella]

Thanks for joining. You'll notice something new. My son Jimmy has been on the show before, but he's never.

[Ronnie Bame]

He's always had that camera.

[Steven Rinella]

You were on the show here and.

[Ronnie Bame]

The camera was behind your head.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Because we had a prohibition on you.

[Ronnie Bame]

Seeing your cute little face on screen.

[Steven Rinella]

But then you hit 15 years of age, arbitrary number. You have a learner's permit. What else happened? You ever learned his privilege?

[Giannis]

Well, something changed in the mind of his parents.

[Mark]

Yep. Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, he got to that age.

[Brian]

Well, that's not totally what happened.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, you tell me what happened.

[Brian]

Well, Jimmy was. He went on a hunt with you and you were going to share a picture of his hunt. And then all of a sudden. And I was cool with that, but then all of a sudden he had like a public Instagram account.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Because I decided at his age, remember? Does that. Remember that joke, the punchline to the joke? I said, I'll tell you the punchline when you get a learner's permit.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Just because that felt like once you have a learner's permit. So he got his. He's just got his learner's permit. He's 15. And now he can. Now when he's on the show, he could.

[Ronnie Bame]

People could see what the kid looks like.

[Brian]

Yeah. I mean, I don't.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, the other thing that happens, he got taller.

[Brian]

It wasn't like A decision we didn't like. Discussion. Like now is the time and this is. Okay. It sort of. It caught me unawares a bit too when that happened just before being.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I mean, the kid can't hide under a rock his whole life.

[Brian]

No, he can't. But the other two kids. So you're. Do you think the other two kids, when they turn 15, will. Like, that's the age. That's when they can have Instagram accounts.

[Jimmy]

Not Rosie.

[Steven Rinella]

Not the girl. No.

[Jimmy]

No.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay, that's not happening. The other boy.

[Brian]

That'll go over her.

[Giannis]

Not the.

[Steven Rinella]

The other boy. Sure. So Jimmy's here. This, this. He's been on the show. How many times have been on the show, buddy?

[Jimmy]

Kids trivia. Once. And then I did one podcast in Wisconsin and then I did one Alaska and then this isn't so.

[Steven Rinella]

No, he's been on the show all the time.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Jimmy just caught. Jimmy just caught a nice fish. The. This spring, Jimmy and I were out fishing and. And I hit a spot and remember I said the water talked to me. The. What's that? The butthole. Steve's big butthole. Yeah, the water talked to me and we pulled in and I said, this is where the water talked to me. You dropped your jig down and what happened?

[Jimmy]

Caught a 65 pound halibut.

[Steven Rinella]

What did the water said?

[Seth]

What did the water say when it talked to you?

[Steven Rinella]

It said, come fish here. Fish me down here. Fish me Steve. Fish me Steve.

[Giannis]

That doesn't sound like the voice of Steve's big butthole.

[Mark]

Well, it's got to travel through a.

[Steven Rinella]

Lot of water after it comes up. It's distorted. Another news. Seth is here. And as bad as annoying as it is to have Seth as a neighbor.

[Seth]

Oh, it's annoying, huh?

[Steven Rinella]

I just paid off.

[Seth]

I'll take my bolt.

[Steven Rinella]

Just paid off because just people I had bought that.

[Ronnie Bame]

You'd think that would pass through two.

[Steven Rinella]

Little pieces of aluminum in a bolt hole, but don't.

[Ronnie Bame]

It's too short.

[Steven Rinella]

So I went to my neighbor and said, I need stainless steel. I produced that whole pile of them.

[Mark]

You know, I gotta say, have good neighbors. I'd buy those bolts for going through the chain. I was unsure about length, so I got two different lengths because I knew you'd.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, you could just got one with more thread on it.

[Mark]

Well, I got two different legs.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, we'll always put them to use. Yeah, Giannis is here. Giannis ran. We haven't talked to Yanni since this happened. Giannis ran recently ran one of those hundred mile Races this morning. He got circumspect about it.

[Ronnie Bame]

Is that what it's called when you.

[Steven Rinella]

Kind of get like you start thinking back?

[Mark]

Yeah, when you're able to look at it from a distance.

[Steven Rinella]

He was sitting right over in that chair and he got circumspect and he.

[Ronnie Bame]

Said, you know, a thing about it.

[Steven Rinella]

And I thought it was going to be something like the mental gaming.

[Ronnie Bame]

He was like, the chap ass.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, you just can't picture the chap ass.

[Mark]

I don't know. I think that would stick with you.

[Ronnie Bame]

Like he said, crippling chap ass.

[Steven Rinella]

And there's no way you're gonna run.

[Ronnie Bame]

100 miles without chat.

[Seth]

Was there something you put on it?

[Giannis]

Oh, yeah, lots of it. I use a product called Squirrels nut butter.

[Seth]

Oh, yeah, I've heard of that.

[Giannis]

I think people use a product called Body Glide. Whatever. Any. Some Vaseline would probably work.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brian]

How often are you applying that?

[Giannis]

It seems like all the time.

[Steven Rinella]

But.

[Giannis]

But if I had to guess, every one to two hours. Are you.

[Mark]

Are you carrying it with you or are you getting.

[Giannis]

Yeah, I have like a. I had like a little baby one, and I had started with it full, and I used it up to the point where at a later aid station, I had to refill from the bigger tub.

[Mark]

So I got.

[Steven Rinella]

Where was the bigger tub?

[Giannis]

Traveling with my crew.

[Ronnie Bame]

First off, you should probably tell people.

[Steven Rinella]

A little bit what. What we're saying you ran 100 miles. Okay.

[Giannis]

At a race called the Crazy Mountain 100, which happened in the Crazy Mountains of Montana, which is, I don't know, northeast of Bozeman, maybe 90 minutes or so, depending on what trailhead you go to. Yeah. 100 miler had 23,000ft of elevation gain through the. Into the entire course.

[Mark]

It's like Mount Everest.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

What's Everest?

[Giannis]

29. Yeah, somewhere in there.

[Steven Rinella]

I think it's 29. This is 28. Something.

[Giannis]

Yeah. Close to 29. Anyways, it's up there and. Yeah, my first one at that distance. I've done a couple 50s working up to that distance. And. Yeah, started on July 25th, finished on July 26th, 33 hours after I started.

[Steven Rinella]

33 hours running.

[Giannis]

So impressive running and. And hiking.

[Steven Rinella]

At what hour Chap Ass kick in?

[Giannis]

Not that far into it. Mile 30. So I don't know, late in the afternoon, midday of the first day.

[Ronnie Bame]

You know what chap ass is, young Jimmy?

[Jimmy]

I can take a wild guess.

[Steven Rinella]

Picture your butt chest.

[Giannis]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

Going like that.

[Brian]

Does that happen all the time while hunting?

[Steven Rinella]

No. What? Chap ass comes From.

[Giannis]

Some guys get it sweaty.

[Steven Rinella]

Some people just suffer. Some people have debilitating chap ass.

[Brian]

Okay. Do you?

[Steven Rinella]

No, I have had chap ass. I wouldn't say I have debilitating chap ass. And I only get chap ass in hot climates.

[Mark]

Yanis, is it a common enough thing that you would, like, see someone on the side of the trail applying?

[Giannis]

Oh, you don't stop to apply. You keep.

[Steven Rinella]

You do it.

[Brian]

What do you mean?

[Giannis]

Well, you just, you know, you slide.

[Mark]

Your hand down there and.

[Giannis]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[Steven Rinella]

You get out your chap ass med.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You go down through.

[Giannis]

You're going both. Both. Depending on what's, like, you'll do it, you know, so. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. You might do a double disclosure.

[Giannis]

Yeah. Like, one of my testes, like, hangs a little bit lower, like I think, like it does with a lot of men, you know, and that one tends to just get a little bit more friction.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, dad, I got you.

[Giannis]

So, yeah, I would hit that from the front, but mine, it's definitely start. I got a couple theories because this is something I had not suffered from at all for most of my life, even though I had been a runner and it had done some longer distances.

[Brian]

And you. It never happened to you?

[Giannis]

Never. Not even kind of? No. Okay. And hold on.

[Steven Rinella]

I got hung up on. So one of them hangs down a little bit.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And that causes chafing.

[Giannis]

Well, I think it's chafing on the fabric, but one isn't.

[Steven Rinella]

His body's not.

[Giannis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Jimmy, when a man gets.

[Giannis]

All right.

[Steven Rinella]

So.

[Giannis]

But wait.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no. I just want to make sure I'm clear. Okay. Here's your nuts. One is like this.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Rubbing your undies in his body.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Is not.

[Giannis]

It's sitting high enough that something. Something's different.

[Brian]

I. I, you know, wouldn't like, like, sport underwear change that.

[Giannis]

Yeah. And honestly, sometimes I try to, like, jack everything up a little bit more to have more support.

[Steven Rinella]

No.

[Giannis]

You know, things are just.

[Steven Rinella]

You have to go to a tailor.

[Giannis]

Micro turn into a big, like, I.

[Steven Rinella]

Need to have a special set one side of my underwear talk.

[Brian]

So. So when did you first figure out that that was happening?

[Giannis]

You know, it's some other race, and I think it was the 50 mile that I did earlier this summer. And luckily I had this little tub with me at that time, because had I not had it, I don't know if I would have made it to the next aid station. Definitely not running. I would have, like, limped in.

[Steven Rinella]

And at an aid station, they have it because it's so common.

[Giannis]

Oh yeah. For sure. What. For sure.

[Mark]

What takes people like people that are in good enough shape to complete it. What takes them out? Blisters. Jap ass.

[Giannis]

Definitely those two things could chap ass.

[Ronnie Bame]

Can take you out.

[Giannis]

Oh, 100.

[Ronnie Bame]

You know who, you know who gets terrible.

[Steven Rinella]

You know what is you're gonna talk.

[Brian]

About who gets terrible chap ass?

[Steven Rinella]

No, no. A thing that where guys going through the BUDS program.

[Mark]

I know.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh yeah. The sand.

[Seth]

Sand? Yeah.

[Ronnie Bame]

The sand in your shorts or the.

[Steven Rinella]

Sand in your pants will.

[Giannis]

People will tap out because of it.

[Steven Rinella]

Because of just cuz picture all those hours and days wet sand packed up in there.

[Giannis]

Yeah. And they're like. They go running for hours on end without changing those clothes.

[Ronnie Bame]

So.

[Giannis]

Yeah. It's bad thinking of that.

[Steven Rinella]

It always seems miserable. I never pictured what you're.

[Brian]

I have a lot of friends that just like summertime and their thighs.

[Giannis]

Women.

[Brian]

Yeah, women deal with this. It's not chap ass. It's like chap thigh.

[Steven Rinella]

Chap thigh.

[Brian]

Yeah. And there's lots of different products for.

[Ronnie Bame]

It and for when your thighs are.

[Steven Rinella]

Rubbing on the inside.

[Brian]

Yeah. Like just walking.

[Steven Rinella]

See, mine are like inches apart.

[Mark]

Yeah. I don't.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't have any inches apart because.

[Brian]

Well, you don't have like twig legs, but you don't have a lot of.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I just can't picture my thighs.

[Seth]

You don't have like linebacker thighs. You're just like.

[Giannis]

No, you don't have that high ass like Pete Alonzo.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I. I gotta. I just. I'm so hung up because this is just a miserable feeling.

[Giannis]

No, it's terrible.

[Steven Rinella]

So blisters take you out. Chap ass takes you out.

[Giannis]

And I would say probably the next most common thing, just because I've heard about it a lot and it definitely almost took me out, is nausea. And I would say that that is connected to what people call GI distress. And I think GI distress comes in many different forms. You could be have diarrhea, you could be puking, you could just feel nauseated. But people start to not eat because of these symptoms and then you basically don't have the energy to continue and you just go to sleep slowly downhill until you tap.

[Ronnie Bame]

So people are getting the shits from the running.

[Giannis]

Yeah. From exertion and from, you know, if you haven't trained on what you're eating. And again, because I don't know the other 200 people that started it with me. Right. Like I don't know what they did going into it to Train themselves. But I spent time literally eating dinner at home, dressed up in my running clothes, have dinner with my family, and as soon as I was done eating, be like, okay, great, I'm out of here. I would run out the door and go out for two or three hours just to train. Like running on a full belly h. And like, you know, like, I, I knew I was. My goal was to try to eat somewhere around 80 to 100 grams of carbohydrates every hour, which most of it I, I took through gels or liquid carbs, like a mixed drink kind of thing. And so I would also train on that. But the problem is with this distance is that it's very hard to train on what you. It's hard to train how you feel at mile 60, 70, 80, 90, because you just don't have the time. And just getting to that point takes a lot out of a human body. Right. And so you just don't know what it's going to be like until you're there.

[Steven Rinella]

Was there a mile that you thought, I don't think I'm going to finish. And then was there a mile at which you thought, I will do, I'll. I'll do this, I'll get this.

[Giannis]

Yes. 100 I. The miles like 75 to 90 were by far the hardest. It was a bummer too because those came like kind of like the second morning. And a lot of people say that that second morning, like your brain kind of has like the. Oh, it's a new day. Even though we didn't sleep last night, it's still a new day and we're gonna reset and we're gonna get going. And I did not experience that. Even though I was like in my head, I'm like, ah, at any minute.

[Steven Rinella]

Like some kind of circadian rhythm.

[Giannis]

Like, yeah, 100.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Because you know, like, I don't do it anymore. But in the old days when you used to drive, you know, you like go drive like a 22 hour drive or whatever and just do it.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You would feel like more when the sun comes. Yeah. Coming. All of a sudden you're like, you feel like something clicks in your head and you're sort of back in it, you know.

[Giannis]

Yeah. You can make it another eight hours.

[Steven Rinella]

So you were just, you never got no, no.

[Giannis]

Little. I mean I might have, but it was, it was short, but yeah. I think had I not had my buddy Steven Bruckner with me, who was pacing me during those miles, pushing me along, continue to be very positive. A lot of just like, hey, we're doing good. Like, we're moving, you're running, it's great. Like, you're looking good. Just like constant, just all of that and just like, hey, have you drank, have you eaten lately? You should drink some more. You should eat some more. And just like making me eat, you know, and just, and just keeping me moving along. Like I never stopped. I did stop to actually take a nap purposely, but I never stopped out of pure, just like exhaustion being like, I can't move any far, I can't go any farther.

[Brian]

How long was your nap?

[Giannis]

Eight minutes.

[Brian]

And you fell asleep immediately?

[Giannis]

Oh, hard. I remember like laying down and being like, he's not gonna let you sleep longer than 8, so you better fall asleep quickly. And I was almost starting to stress about not being able to fall asleep. And then all of a. And he's like, hey, get up. You know, and so I.

[Steven Rinella]

Who said that?

[Giannis]

My buddy Stephen, that was with me.

[Steven Rinella]

So he just watched you sleep?

[Giannis]

Oh, yeah. With a big smile on his face. What was funny is at the, At a. Like a trail at a.

[Steven Rinella]

So you're meeting up with buddies and they're going to do blank mile to blank mile.

[Giannis]

So mostly in the United States, you can't pick up a pacer until roughly halfway. So you got to do 50 miles on your own and then you can start picking up pacers. In Europe, it's. There's like no pacers. It's like not a part of. It's the only thing they do harder.

[Steven Rinella]

In Europe than America. Tell me, because they basically like have given up.

[Ronnie Bame]

Just, just Western Europe as a continent.

[Steven Rinella]

Is kind of in its retirement.

[Brian]

Okay. I.

[Ronnie Bame]

No, they're kind of kicking it. You don't think so?

[Brian]

No.

[Steven Rinella]

Four day work.

[Ronnie Bame]

I mean, they're kind of wrapped it up.

[Steven Rinella]

They kind of wrapped it up.

[Ronnie Bame]

My friend just got back from Spain, he told me all about it.

[Steven Rinella]

Say mostly people kick it. He goes as far as. My experience in Spain was like, people chill, they chill, they eat stuff. Not a lot goes on.

[Brian]

Harrison told me that is a. I mean, no offense to Harrison, but the observations of a 18 year old. Gospel kid.

[Steven Rinella]

Gospel.

[Brian]

And you're going to talk about Western Europe as a whole. What was the farthest you ran prior to this?

[Giannis]

55 miles.

[Brian]

So this was like you were gonna be like double pretty much. That's crazy.

[Giannis]

Yeah. The interesting thing was is that the body felt fine. It really did. I felt durable, I felt good. But at some point at those miles, I was just talking about like the, the fuel tank.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

Would just seem to go empty. And even though I was like trying to eat, trying to drink, and felt like I was getting stuff in, I just couldn't refill it. The nausea was just like kind of constant. Did you throw up? Never threw up. Throw up through. There was a one time where I stepped off to the side of the trail thinking, like, oh, it might be coming. And then I was fine. And it didn't come.

[Ronnie Bame]

Did it stay fun or did you.

[Steven Rinella]

Get lost in this idea that it would never end?

[Giannis]

No, I got you start to get worried of, like, oh, am I gonna finish? Because this race has a pretty strict cutoff of 36 hours, which is pretty short for 100 milers. Like a lot of races have more like a 38 or even a 40 hour cut off. And at one point, Steven says to me, he's like, hey, we're like not in a hurry yet, but like, we don't want to make it interesting. Meaning, like, let's not f around because let's like, let's get it be such a.

[Mark]

Just a bummer if you were at 90 miles and they're like, oh, just.

[Giannis]

Waste your whole day. Like a couple wasted two days. Yeah, well, you can't look at it that way. It's not, it's not a waste. I mean, you've still accomplished something by moving that far. You just don't get the belt buckle. But some guy a couple years ago literally finished like 36 hours and like 15 seconds and they. They didn't give him the finisher's buckle.

[Brian]

Oh, my gosh.

[Giannis]

I know. It's a thing. It's been discussed.

[Steven Rinella]

We don't need to discuss, man, I like it. But I'm saying no. When I. All I was saying is if I was that guy would. And people go like, hey, I heard you ran that 100 mile race.

[Giannis]

Yeah, sure I did.

[Steven Rinella]

Did you finish? I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark]

It's kind of like shooting 199 inch mule deer. What are you gonna say?

[Seth]

Yeah.

[Brian]

I just can't believe that you. I can't believe that you did that. I can't believe that people do that. That is a crazy distance to run.

[Giannis]

It is. It is. No, you, we trailed. Every time I say this, I have a hard time spitting those two words out of my mouth. But we cleared trail a couple weeks earlier with a fella that had done it twice already and did it a third time, the same when I did it two, three weeks ago. And he's a middle to back of the pack Finisher, but he's finished it every year, but comes in, like, he was showing me pictures of, like, his ankles and his feet the first two years. I'm like, oh, my God, I hope I don't have to experience that. I mean, just like, swollen and like, sausage toes. Yeah. Like, pretty beat up.

[Brian]

How do you know you're not, like, totally damaging your body?

[Giannis]

You don't. I don't. I think the most people, their brain won't let them get to that point. There's few people, like, we were talking about this with learning how to hold your breath. Right. Weren't we? With. With. And Jake was telling us about how the only people that will actually take themselves to passing out in the pool are the Navy seals. Those kind of people that have that mindset that they're like, oh, you're gonna tell me I can't pass out. Watch me. And they'll go down there and hold their breath until literally, they. They pass out. Right. And I think that there's a small subset of people that will be like, oh, I'm just gonna keep running until someone else tells me to stop. But most people's brain is. You're gonna tap out.

[Brian]

But I think that's the. That's the most confusing thing for me about a race. Like that is if all running. I mean, running for me is like, misery. So it's all mental effort to say, like, I can do this mind over matter, whatever. Like, where's the line between mind over matter and, like, you need to listen to your body because it's telling you, like, you're on the edge.

[Giannis]

It's tricky because, you know, as tough as it was, for me, the recovery was extremely easy. And so I feel like, oh, I maybe could have hit it a little harder because some people do talk about recovering for months and not thinking about doing something like that again for six months, where right now I feel like I could. I'd want to talk to maybe some professionals, but I feel like I could go tomorrow and knock out another one.

[Brian]

Do you think you could ever do that?

[Steven Rinella]

No.

[Giannis]

Everybody could.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, okay. I'm sure, yes. I think that if I dedicated myself to it and did all the training, I think that based on that, I can walk long distances. Good. I'm sure that I could get there, like, and I would have the, you know, like, when I set my mind to something, I'm gonna do it.

[Giannis]

Yeah, you would 100 have the mental.

[Steven Rinella]

Fortitude, but I would never commit myself. Like, I would never deprioritize the stuff I'm already trying to do in order to make room to properly dedicate myself to doing something like that. And I would never do it half assed, you know, I mean, it'd be like if, like if I was gonna do it, I'd have to just do it. And if I was gonna and that. But I'm not gonna quit doing all the stuff I think about in order.

[Ronnie Bame]

To accommodate that, because for a while that's all he. That's all he had room to think about. Is that true, like free time?

[Giannis]

I mean, you definitely spent a lot of time running in preparation.

[Ronnie Bame]

You'd eat dinner and then go run.

[Steven Rinella]

For two, three hours.

[Brian]

Yeah, but did that.

[Steven Rinella]

Was that I eat dinner and I go fiddle around my garage for a minute?

[Brian]

Yeah, but was that like a good thing? Were you like stoked to be doing that?

[Giannis]

Oh, yeah, I enjoy the process. Yeah, sure.

[Seth]

Did you keep track of your training miles? Like how many miles?

[Giannis]

You know, I have an app that the, the coach and I, you know, work through together and it, you know, mostly I run with a watch on and so. Yeah, but I can't tell you off the top of my head how many miles I ran in preparation.

[Steven Rinella]

Gotcha. Tell me about the minute you knew you're going to make it.

[Giannis]

Well, so I went through miles 75 to 90 in. And I haven't, unfortunately, prior to this recording, I haven't had a chance to have a good sit down with Stephen to be like, okay, tell me what you saw from the outside. Like, he, in short, he's been like, I think you did really good. I think you pushed it. You didn't. You weren't like being a little baby out there and whatever. But it was tough. And like I said, I went through a place of just being like, man, like I'm like losing time and people start passing you and. And you're just like, why can't I run? Why can't I run? But we finally roll into roughly mile 90, 92, I think, where Mark Canyon was going to start pacing me.

[Steven Rinella]

And why did he get the closer?

[Giannis]

Huh?

[Steven Rinella]

He got the closer.

[Giannis]

Well, there was two short coming at 99.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm like, come on, Y.

[Giannis]

Together you could have. They. Basically, there's kind of a bunch of rules, like you can't have more than one pacer prior to do that. But that last section, what do they feel?

[Ronnie Bame]

What do they feel?

[Steven Rinella]

The.

[Ronnie Bame]

What's the difference?

[Steven Rinella]

Is it just trying to police the area and like.

[Giannis]

Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Like, it's all Under Forest Service permits. Right. So they have to watch how many people are kind of using the Forest Service during the race and all that. But yeah, I don't know exactly why, but yeah, it's probably a lot of it is just to keep the numbers of people down. But anyways, we roll in there and it's whatever, I've got eight miles to go and it's probably 1130 in the afternoon.

[Steven Rinella]

You're saying you roll in where?

[Giannis]

Into the, into the last aid station.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Giannis]

It's called hunting camp, but. And it is a legit hunting camp that an outfitter uses, but it's set up as an aid station. So you basically come out of the mountains finally and the last eight miles is on a dirt road that's ever so slightly going downhill. You hit pavement and there's this little micro climb that I'm sure for some people seem like a lot, but it's like 100 yards and it just barely climbs. And then you pull off the pavement onto another ranch and you've got, I don't know, 300 yards to the finish line.

[Ronnie Bame]

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[Steven Rinella]

I was like, oh. I did not plan my day accordingly.

[Ronnie Bame]

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[Steven Rinella]

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[Steven Rinella]

Oh, sorry, we had a little mishap. The generator ran out of gas. So my. If there's a rough edit, that's what happened. Trying to remember where we were.

[Seth]

Johnny was the last station.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ronnie Bame]

Don't be asking me no questions.

[Mark]

Well, you gotta explain that.

[Giannis]

Like why he got to finish like.

[Mark]

Whitetail hunting questions or like how you feel in questions.

[Giannis]

Any because I didn't want to talk. You're out of like at that point the human runner is out of energy to. To waste any energy.

[Mark]

So you wanted him to talk at.

[Giannis]

You but yeah, entertain my brain. And he was actually really surprised how much I retained this. Later he was like quizzing me about what, what I What we had talked about. I'm like, oh, yeah?

[Steven Rinella]

What was he telling you about?

[Giannis]

Well, you know Mark, he says you're a bookworm. So he gave me like three book reports. And then he told me about the book that he's, you know, pretty much finished writing. Is at the. The editor now. The first. First version. But I. I can't remember what else we. We definitely talked about some deer.

[Steven Rinella]

So he was just filling space with good, useful information at that point in time.

[Seth]

Are you able to, like, if he said something funny, are you able to laugh or.

[Giannis]

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, it was funny. Is that work to put a piece.

[Steven Rinella]

Of Saran Wrap between your butt cheeks?

[Mark]

I think.

[Jimmy]

How are we still on?

[Giannis]

But a slick thing, because this is something that people don't think about is that if you're not ready when you're applying it, you know it's just your fingers.

[Steven Rinella]

Sure.

[Giannis]

And then you're not out there. Exactly. With like a hand washing station.

[Mark]

Well, that's what I wanted to get back to. Like the whole, like, sanitization.

[Giannis]

Oh, yeah. No. So I would come into the aid station and high five everybody. And then like, now that we've done that, you guys all want to sanitize your hands?

[Steven Rinella]

Because I've had my finger in my buttocks.

[Giannis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, one of the funniest things that just. I. We'll get back to the race. But we're. You know that. That dental floss called glide? I remember we were talking about that and my brother Danny was giving it a bad review. Yeah.

[Giannis]

Because it doesn't glide.

[Steven Rinella]

He said it was. He said it's like wiping your ass with Saran Wrap, which I always thought was a great visual. That glide stuff. Like, it doesn't get the gunk out.

[Brian]

No, I think it depends on how close your teeth are together.

[Giannis]

That's true.

[Steven Rinella]

Because I find tight tooth people, it's.

[Giannis]

A little too thick.

[Steven Rinella]

So Mark's talking all about these books.

[Giannis]

Yeah, he's telling me about books. What's funny is that right there leaving, you got to climb up this little hill. I forgot it's a little bit of a bigger hill. And I was just gonna walk up it, but Jennifer's like, they're there at the aid station. But they're like, but we made another. A station at the trucks at the top of the hill. And I. When I. When she says that to me, I'm like, why did you make a. An aid station, like, on top of another hill? You're going to ask me to at this point, walk up like a bonus hill. Cuz to me it sounded like, oh, we're going to take you off of the trail up some hill to where the cars are, where we have this nice aid station and then you can come back. I'm like, I'm not going up some hill. And she's like looking at me like, what are you talking about? Like, right there where you. Everybody else has to go. We're like right off the side of the road. And then I understood. Anyways, we get up there and two things happened. One, you're out of the mountains, so you're off of the, the crazy mountains. The trails are extremely rough. Like, there's a lot of trails that they. There are signs that say, like, do not take equestrian animals on these trails. Because they're just so loose and so many just little rocks. And when you're 20 miles in or even, you know, 30, 40, you're just like just kind of hopping and skipping through them and it's no big deal. But when it gets to mile 80 and your brain is like looking at just this like, trail full of rocks and it's just like your brain's like, we don't want to contend with that anymore.

[Mark]

One like one bad step ends the race, right?

[Giannis]

Well, that could be too, but you're just having to work for every step, you know? And like, it got to the point where you could see like people were actually running in the grass because just like running even through those like, bunchy grass, which no man ever wants to hike in bunch grass when you could be on a trail. But people were like, purposely, you could see where they had been running in the grass over the rocks. And this is something I had heard is that people say, yeah, once you get down to that road, your body, your legs, your brain is like, oh, you can run because you don't have to think about it. You can just go. And so there's that. And then Stephen also gave me a couple Tylenol and I'm like, tylenol? I'm like, I'm not really hurting. He's like, it'll be good, trust me. And I almost didn't take it because I'm thinking like, oh, I'm gonna take these two Tylenol. And then the nausea and then these two things in my stomach that I'm not really prepared for and it's not going to be good. And he's like, no, I think you should take it. So we start walking and I tell give my mark my speech. I'm like, we're gonna just, like, we'll run a little bit. Like, we might run to that next tree, and then we'll walk, and then we'll run, and we'll just kind of feel it out and see how it goes. Well, we start running, I'm like, oh, this feels pretty good. And then my buddy Cooper comes by, and he's jamming some Wu Tang in the truck, like, super loud. And I kind of get that and a little head bob going. And I'm like, oh, okay. And we start clipping. And we've been passed by two groups, and. But they're like, maybe three, 400 yards out ahead of me. And all of a sudden I'm like, mark, we're gonna take them down. And when we go buy them, we're not stopping, and we're just gonna keep going. And the next thing I know, we knocked out those eight miles in. Like, I don't know, it felt like 90 minutes or less. Like, we zoomed and, like, I felt great. Like, by the time everybody caught up to me, that was racing, basically. Passing us to get to the finish line, to be there. Like, they're, like, looking at us like, whoa, yeah, let's go. Because we were, like, actually running, we almost caught another group. We bumped them. It's a funny thing that Steven says, just like how you bump animals sometimes, and then they start, they see you coming. Oh, yeah. Well, we bumped these. This pack, a three pack of girls. And I was closing in good. Like, I made it to, like, 150 yards, probably. And then also, because they were doing the same thing that I had, they were like, we're gonna run and then walk, run and then walk. And we're to take that all the way to the finish. But once I bumped them, they went running all the way.

[Brian]

And so that was like a combo of the Wu Tang, the Tylen, and.

[Giannis]

The road book reports.

[Mark]

Did you feel the Tylenol hit your system or you just felt.

[Steven Rinella]

You just felt?

[Giannis]

You know, I sure wish I would have taken the tylenol, like, mile 80. I guarantee you I will have some with me next time I get to 80 miles.

[Brian]

That is the anti inflammatory one, right? Acetaminophen is anti inflammatory, yeah. So I'm sure it just, like, maybe calmed your body down a little bit, huh?

[Giannis]

Could be a lot of different. A lot of different things. Again, when your body's at that point, you don't know how that stuff's affecting.

[Brian]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

So this. You're gonna. This is something you're gonna start doing.

[Giannis]

Maybe you know that if there was no kids at home, it was just Jennifer and I. Yeah, I'd probably do a whole bunch, but it takes a whole bunch. It takes time. Yeah. Because the thing that even, like within the. Maybe the first day after, probably on Sunday, I didn't do too much time rethinking about the race because you're just kind of in this euphoric state where you're like, yeah, I'm a little beat up, and I'm definitely fatigued and tired. And I had what I described as a very lounge lizard day where I was sort of like, go from bed into the kitchen, like, eat as much as I could possibly could until I kind of lost energy. And then I would sort of like, slump down and I would either make it to just the carpet or maybe I would make it to the couch or back to the bed. And I just did that rotation all day long. You know, obviously there's like a bathroom break in there too, but, like, you're not going anywhere. I forced myself to walk to the barn and back one time, just like, move my legs. But by the next day, you're like, oh, how could I have done it better? Where did I mess up? What were my mistakes? Was it. Could I have taken tylenol at mile 70? Could I have done more Coke? Could I have just pushed a little bit harder? Was I being a little baby there?

[Brian]

I have done. Did you just say, could I have done more Coke?

[Giannis]

I drank more Coca Cola. I'm glad you cleared that up, Kitty.

[Ronnie Bame]

You know, Seth, it's a lot like.

[Steven Rinella]

Coming off a five, six hour halibut jig.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, you're out there. It's like, I've been there, you're out there. I mean, you're just trying to get through. Yeah. Six hours of jigging.

[Seth]

It's tough sometimes.

[Giannis]

Well, it's amazing how come in at.

[Steven Rinella]

Night you're like, how could we have done better?

[Giannis]

Yeah. 85. I'm like, if Stephen wasn't here, I would just DNF right now, you know, Like, I had thoughts like that come through.

[Steven Rinella]

What's that mean?

[Giannis]

I did not finish. When you just pull yourself out.

[Steven Rinella]

But, like, I don't think you would have quit.

[Giannis]

Well, that again, that's because that's something.

[Ronnie Bame]

That I wanted too much into it.

[Giannis]

That's something that I would like to explore. I don't know if it'll be the next one. I do. But I will. No, I will definitely. I will definitely do one solo.

[Jimmy]

Oh.

[Giannis]

Because I think it's a whole different mindset.

[Brian]

What was the, like, what was the inspiration to do it in the first place? Like, when did you first say, because it's been like a long held, like, desire and goal. No, I'm gonna run 100 miles one day.

[Giannis]

No, honestly, when I moved to Bozeman, I had done a couple Vail Trail half marathons at that point, maybe three. There was like, we had like a race series and where Brody and I lived in Vail, and I would do a couple of trail runs. And it. All that stuff started really just to be in shape for September, so I could feel like I could go uphill and, you know, get to the ridge before the elk did. And then when I got to bows, when I heard about this Bridger Ridge run, it's like 19, 20 miles. I'm like, oh, that looks like a sweet place to do a run. So I did that. And then Rick Smith used to always talk about the rut, and he And I would like, look at it online, be like, that's insane. And then someone's like, oh, no, you could do it. I'm like, oh, maybe I could. So I got a coach and they're like, oh, yeah, we can. We can get you ready for that 31 miles in the mountains, no problem. So I did that. And this is like, sort of every distance I've done. I'm like, oh, I wonder if I could go a little bit farther. The going from 20 to 30, no big deal. 30 to 50 was really. I wouldn't say that big of a deal. Very doable. But 50 to 100 was a was. It was a leap.

[Steven Rinella]

Wow.

[Seth]

So now when you look at the rut, are you like, ah, that's.

[Steven Rinella]

That's cupcakes. Yeah.

[Giannis]

No, because you're gonna. No matter what the distance it. What the distance is, or the amount of elevation gain the race has, your brain, your body is going to go at a certain effort level to do that race. Like, I did a. I think it was a 25k in Helena in the spring, and it took me, I don't know, three hours, something.

[Seth]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

And like, I ran way faster and I. But I still exerted a bunch of energy. And by the time you get done with it, you're like, you know, and. And you're. You're done.

[Steven Rinella]

Right.

[Giannis]

You need a day off. And so I think you just, you know, you sort of just pace yourself to whatever distance it is.

[Steven Rinella]

Gotcha.

[Giannis]

So, yeah. Can I finish it easily? Sure. Yeah. I could go do the. The rut 50k without any kind of problems.

[Steven Rinella]

Y.

[Giannis]

But again, do I want to, like, beat my last time that I did it? Probably, you know.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Rosie and I are doing the 11K.

[Giannis]

Right, right.

[Brian]

And that is more K's than I have ever won a lot of K's in my life. I'm really nervous.

[Steven Rinella]

It's gonna be a K hole.

[Giannis]

Yeah. So you're. That's, like, probably six and a half, seven miles, something like that. Yeah, yeah.

[Brian]

Yeah. I've never run that much in one fell swoop, ever.

[Giannis]

It's gonna be great.

[Brian]

Is it?

[Giannis]

I think so.

[Brian]

I mean, certainly having people in my life that can run 100 miles and I. And can talk about it and how cool it is is. Is very inspiring for something like that, but.

[Mark]

Oh, yeah, it kind. Like, it's inspiring, but also, like, when I'm out running, it kind of makes me angry that Giannis is out there running 100 miles.

[Steven Rinella]

It does the opposite. Yeah. It does the opposite of pump you up, Giannis.

[Mark]

Like, I'm out running five miles, and.

[Brian]

I'm like, five miles is not a short run.

[Giannis]

No, I know.

[Mark]

Like, I know.

[Brian]

And you're doing that multiple times a week. Like, that's awesome.

[Mark]

But it's like, because I'm old, and I want to keep hunting when I'm old.

[Giannis]

That's right.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Mark]

It's not because I want to.

[Brian]

Well, you're not old, but I understand what you're saying. You're trying to keep in shape and.

[Giannis]

Yeah, but this. This guy that we clear trail with.

[Steven Rinella]

Jimmy's got a question.

[Giannis]

Jake.

[Jimmy]

No, I was just saying, you guys are run.

[Giannis]

He. He. He. He said it right? And, like, it stuck with me in a time, but at mile 75 or 80, it really rang true where he's like, yeah, the first 50, he's like, it's kind of fun. He's like, the second 50, you find out what you're made out of, and it's like, you can't really say it any better than that, because that second 50, it's like, the first 50 is just kind of like the price of admission to get to see what's gonna happen in the second 50, you know, because you can't. You're not gonna know one without the other.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. You know, like, I'm just here to see what happens later.

[Giannis]

Yeah, you are. You're like, scenery's great. Like, we're in the mountains.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, I know. I got this one. I got the first 50.

[Giannis]

It's a beautiful, long day in the mountains. I had this crazy Guy run up to me like I hadn't been done. I had crossed the finish line, hugged everybody that was there helping me and the other friends that had. Had ran it. And this other guy, Stephen Graham, who I kind of know. I've run into him a few times on the trails around Bozeman. He runs up to me, and he's like, what you think about that crazy ridge around Honey Trail? When I'm up there, I just feel like I'm following a wounded bull elk. And I'm just like, what, dude? What are you talking about? And then he's like, yeah, you know, you're just on that, like, kind of slopey rolling hill, and there's really no trail. It kind of just keeps going and going and going. And I'm like, oh, yeah. I kind of see what you're saying, you know, like. Like, he just. Like, that's what is in his mind, because it's not a great trail. There's just these flags, like, on this, like, bunch grass hillside. And it's just like this kind of like, you're like, why is the trail here? So it's like a. Like a wound, like a trail wounded bull elk would take, where you're just like, there's no rhyme or reason. He's just sort of like, traveling here and. But that guy had way too much energy. Well, I'll leave it with this. It's amazing how at, like, 90, you're like, I'm gonna die up here.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

You know, I might lay down, and the crows will just pick my eyes out. And then you get done and you give a few hugs around, and everybody's like, sit down. What can we get for you? And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, no. I feel pretty good now that that's behind me. Like, I'm cool to hang out and, like, let's watch everybody else finish and clap and. And, like, all sudden, your brain is just like, oh, that's behind us. So you can, like, enjoy yourself again.

[Brian]

Yeah, man. That's so cool that you did that. I just. I can't even. It's, like, very hard to imagine running.

[Ronnie Bame]

That this giant candy sack come when.

[Steven Rinella]

The generator went down.

[Giannis]

Yes.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

This just appeared.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

That's nice.

[Brian]

Would you like it to go away?

[Steven Rinella]

No, it's just, like, a little bit of continuity be appreciated. I mean, Phil, no amount of magical editing. No, Phil, if Phil cleaned up.

[Brian]

Sorry.

[Steven Rinella]

Phil, if Phil clean. It feels like no problem. I got the whole thing cleaned up. It'd be, like, all sudden, and it'd also be like.

[Giannis]

I was trying to address it when we. When we started recording again. And I was saying that we're kind of like some long distance runners that basically, at some point you just turn to eating a lot of sugar.

[Steven Rinella]

So hopefully Phil knows. Well, he'll know.

[Seth]

He knows now.

[Steven Rinella]

There's no point in trying to clean up the edit.

[Giannis]

No, don't do it, Phil.

[Jimmy]

Can we combine these bags or do you want to just.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Little candy management here. Yeah, it's like Halloween should bring us home and give it congratulations, man.

[Giannis]

Thanks.

[Mark]

Yeah, thanks.

[Seth]

Congrats, Johnny.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, that was cool.

[Giannis]

Speaking of doing.

[Steven Rinella]

It's a. Cool. It's a good feat. It's like a. You know, it was a real accomplishment, man.

[Giannis]

It is. No, no, I. I 100 feel that way. I'm very. My goal was number. First goal was to finish, and I always say finish with a smile on my face, which I did. Second goal was to go 30 hours. I did in 33. It was a lofty goal. I think I could go back now with experience, probably pull that off. Um. But, yeah, I'm very happy. It's like there was at times, I'm like, did I do it? I do it well enough. And multiple people have reached out and been like, look, dude, that's like one of the hardest ones in the country. It's a lot of elevation. Like those trails I was talking about earlier where the footing just stinks for mile after mile after mile after mile. And so they're like, look, as your first attempt.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

Your debut 100. Great job, you know, so I'm pumped. I got my belt buckle.

[Steven Rinella]

You got it on right now.

[Brian]

Do you get a belt buckle for, like, everyone or.

[Giannis]

Yeah. Is that every 100? It's like a. Whatever. I don't know where it came from. I should look that up. But it's like a thing. Like.

[Steven Rinella]

But they stole, like, rodeos groove. Yeah. That's not very nice. Why don't they come up with their own thing, like a headband?

[Giannis]

So you gotta.

[Seth]

You gotta start dressing like a little western just so you can show off.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, why not? Just gonna be like a headband.

[Mark]

You. You should be giving out, like, halibut belt buckles up here.

[Steven Rinella]

That'd be a sweet belt buckle. That be pretty cool, actually. I don't wear any kind of butt. I. I wear a belt. My belt has no metal on it.

[Mark]

I've never owned a belt.

[Steven Rinella]

I wear all. It's all fabric. Velcro belt.

[Seth]

I used to rock a belt buckle back in the day you don't anymore.

[Giannis]

You had that fancy bell doesn't keep your fly closed.

[Steven Rinella]

No, I never zip that up. You know what? Well when I'm wearing my bibs. When I'm wearing my bibs and I've been wearing my bibs all day, I leave that down. Cuz coverage elsewhere.

[Giannis]

Totally. Yeah. I was actually running that program today too.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Ronnie Bame]

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[Steven Rinella]

And hey, let me tell you, over.

[Ronnie Bame]

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[Steven Rinella]

A man.

[Ronnie Bame]

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[Giannis]

Of doing kind of hard crazy stuff, we really haven't gotten to sit down and chat about Africa at all.

[Steven Rinella]

No, you and I have not. And I feel I've been chatting about it a lot.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

But I wouldn't call it like. It's not. It's not. It's. Yeah. I wouldn't say hard and crazy. I mean, but like you.

[Giannis]

We were just talking when we weren't recording about how another American has been killed.

[Steven Rinella]

Two guys this year.

[Giannis]

Two guys have been killed this year hunting Black Death.

[Steven Rinella]

I didn't know that till that's the name. That's the nickname for the Cape Buffalo Black.

[Seth]

Oh, yeah, I knew that.

[Ronnie Bame]

Two.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Two Americans killed. Guy just got killed now.

[Giannis]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

So we're just debating like, how bad do you feel? Like it's too bad. But part of the allure is that you're hunting a thing that gets you. Yeah, that's what's so. That's what, like, it's so enticing about it. So. You know, because otherwise it's kind of.

[Giannis]

Like you're hunting a cow.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. And I had friends that pushed it too long and mountaineering and they knew where that was going.

[Giannis]

Right.

[Mark]

You know, but it's part of that animal is part of the big five and all. Like the reason they're called Big five is because they're all dangerous.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, I didn't, you know, I didn't know.

[Ronnie Bame]

You know when people say Planes game.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I was like, well, what's not Planes game? The only thing not Planes game is Dangerous game. Oh, God, I thought there was like, I don't know, like another category. Yeah, Dangerous game. Planes game.

[Jimmy]

What about like waterfowl? Is that just called.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, no, no. In Africa Hunting?

[Jimmy]

Well, don't they have.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, that would be just a whole different category. But people say like Planes Game and you're like, okay, what is not that? And what's not that is Dangerous game. Yeah. It's like, it's like being around, like in the end we had like nothing happened, you know, I mean, we killed the bull and watched it. Killed a bull and watched.

[Giannis]

Yeah. But so that's what I want to know about is that particular hunt, like when it finally went down, were you scared?

[Steven Rinella]

No, not at all.

[Giannis]

Never.

[Steven Rinella]

I was. I wasn't. There was points where you're like, oh, I see how this goes. You know, like you're in 8 foot high grass and they're right in front of you. You can see the grass moving. You can hear and see the birds, the oxpeckers that are on them all the time. You can hear the ox peckers and you see them flitting around and they're just 20 yards, you know, like there's a 2,000 pound thing, 20 yards that has a reputation.

[Giannis]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

But all they do is they just want to. They don't like, you know, they smell you gone but you. So you're aware. And then we're at a spot where they're like, oh yeah, this is where Roger got. You know, we went to a spot and they're like, oh yeah, right here. This is where Roger. This is where Roger got plastered. And he got plastered like a grizzly.

[Giannis]

Bear that 99 out of 100 times it smells you and runs. And then but 1% of the time it just is like, oh, I'm pissed and I'm coming after you.

[Seth]

Isn't a lot of time. It's when they're wounded.

[Steven Rinella]

It's. It really is like that's what was unusual. There's a guy from Texas just got killed. And it. In the article and the reporting for the article was pointed out was unwounded. So these guys, Morgan, those got like the trackers. It's. It's just they're worried about the wounded ones. But what was pointed out to me, it's interesting.

[Ronnie Bame]

It doesn't mean it was wounded by you.

[Steven Rinella]

This guy, Roger got plastered by one that had been wounded by a lion. Right. So it's. Or they get wounded by someone else or wounded from some other reason.

[Ronnie Bame]

And so they're just.

[Steven Rinella]

There's a chance that out there are wounded ones. It's. So there's also that you hit one and then you got to trail your wounded one. Yeah. And when you hit them, they go into the thickest they can find. Right. And then you got to go. He's either on a rot or you're going to go in there and find them. And that's nerve wracking. Or there's always a chance that you're on one and he's something else wounded him.

[Ronnie Bame]

But the trackers are paying a lot.

[Steven Rinella]

Of attention to how it behaves. This just through conversation. They're. When they're tracking, they're watching. Like is something wrong with it if they, if they're on one that's dragging its foot. Funny not doing the right things in the right places. Suggesting that he's got a problem. Then they'll be like, heads up, we're following one that something's wrong with.

[Giannis]

So how did yours go down? Have you already explained this in a different podcast?

[Steven Rinella]

No. How did you know. We talked about a little bit.

[Ronnie Bame]

We tr.

[Steven Rinella]

We got on a Group and tracked a group for a few hours, lost them, got back, got in a truck, went down the road a little ways and saw a bull. Just caught a glimpse of a bull moving along, got out and went down the road paralleling them and kept well. First we went off, tried to find them, parallel a while. Look for him, look for him, look for him. Couldn't find them. Then we stopped. We're doing that little thing like. Like, ah, we lost him, you know, standing there. It was very late in the day. They. They cut where we. We ducked in at one point and cut a track and saw that he'd already come through. Like, we're like, we're like. We know he's going along in a line, so we're kind of paralleled along 75 yards off and at one point cut over to intersect his line to see, like, had he been through or not yet and realized, oh, he'd already passed through. So now we kind of went and cut, thinking we were gonna maybe be in front of him. But they hit the track and like, no, he's already been through here. So we backed out, paralleled more and then just nothing was like, see nothing, hear nothing. And then we're doing that little stand around thing you do, like when you kind of regroup and. And also heard like a twig. And everybody all of a sudden like, well, the twig went snap. And everybody did that. Like. Like I just heard something. And. And all of a sudden like, everybody stared in the same spot. And all of a sudden there is just like. There's like he's out. And all of a sudden there's his head peering how far down? Through 75 yards. His head peering down and. And that you could see him playing his day. And at that point kind of turned a little bit. Morgan was like, see the. See his chin go 8 inches down and 4 or 5 inches over from his chin and hit him right there.

[Mark]

Because you could. Like, you can't.

[Giannis]

Okay, so you shot him quartering two.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I didn't do what he said. I was a little off, but it was like, all's well that ends well because it was high, but just went right into his chest cavity. So it kind of almost went in. Like he's looking at you with his head down. Imagine that he's down like this. Imagine it entered kind of in your. Where your cheek meets your neck, but just, you know. Yeah, then I shot. Then I. Then I tried to hit him two more times when he ran, but missed them for the trackers or the skinners they never found anything. I shot at him two more times as he ran, but I don't think I connected on him. But the one was fatal.

[Mark]

The. And the whole time you're following and tracking them, the most important thing is window or.

[Ronnie Bame]

Yeah, but you.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, we.

[Ronnie Bame]

We did too long.

[Steven Rinella]

We did two, like, long, like, real active tracks. Following. Yep. One, like, you get on them and you're hoping to.

[Ronnie Bame]

You're tracking.

[Steven Rinella]

And the trackers know the behavior so well, but it'd be kind of very similar. Like, picture you found elk in the snow. You get up at daybreak, and there's out, like, you know where he's not gonna be. Meaning if you're up on some big high plateau. Right. Blown off where he's feeding in the snow, it's like, now it's nine in the morning. Yeah, I know where he's not gonna be.

[Mark]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

He's not gonna be here. He's gonna be up in that timber hole. Right. So you kind of got that right. And they know that it's different because it's more subtle, but they know where he wants to be. So when you're going along, sometimes you're like, he doesn't want to be here. And then you get to places where they become intensely interested. So you'll come into some little thing like. Like a thick timber patch and like a little depression. And what they'll know, like, what's the sun gonna do and how much. Because they want to be in the dark. Yeah, Dank. They want to lay down in the dark. They want to lay down where they can see out of their hole. And they're going to be in, like, tucked in. So all of a sudden they'll get where they just stopped, and they stare and stare and stare. And then they move five feet and stare and stare and stare and move over and stare and stare and stare. Because they're like, I think he's in there somewhere. He's in that hole. Yeah. And then you look at it from every angle, and you look at it from every angle, and you just can't find them. And eventually someone slips around like, he left. He's not in that patch, but he's still not running. He never ran.

[Mark]

Is it over if you bump him?

[Steven Rinella]

Not necessarily. We bumped him and went. We bumped one twice. So when you go, he's not there and he didn't run. Then you keep on him. So one, we get to the end. One, the way it ended is all of a sudden I'm from. I don't know Man, Not. Not me to that sink. But we're like in one of those patches and they're just. They're like, he's here. They just know. They're like, he's here.

[Mark]

And was that at all creepy?

[Steven Rinella]

Like there's two of them and they're. He's just here. Yeah. And we're in there. And all of a sudden that's. And all of a sudden one gets a gather gets up out of its bed and I can just see half its face and one of its horns. And that thing is. That thing is not me to that sync. But it's. It's just like, right. All of a sudden. That was the first one I got a good look at. I got half his face in a horn and he's just there and it's like it didn't.

[Ronnie Bame]

He had zero interest.

[Steven Rinella]

All he wanted to do was slip out. But you're like, yeah, I see now. Do you know, I mean, like, they let you just get on them and. Sure. At some point now and then, boom. You know, but he was nothing like that. There was no. All the. All the tension. Any tension that I felt was all.

[Ronnie Bame]

Because this.

[Steven Rinella]

All the stories. Do you follow me? Yep. All the stories. So it's like you're carrying all those tales, right? Because otherwise you'd be like, what do.

[Ronnie Bame]

You like, what is the deal?

[Steven Rinella]

It's some like giant bovid looking thing.

[Mark]

And the trackers aren't throwing off any cues. Like, you should be pretty scared right now. Like, you're looking at the trackers and they're just cool as ice.

[Giannis]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

You know what they do when. When one comes, they're down flat on the ground, out of the way, but they're down and they want to be down where they can't get hooked back up. And. And Morgan, the. The professional hunter kept saying to the trackers, he's like, don't worry about them. Like, they're. That's my job. Yeah. And they're gonna be very quickly. They're gonna very quickly go from being in front of me to being. To be in mind. Because like, he's the dude with the gun. Like, at the end of the day, he's the guy that's putting everybody in the situation. And so it's his job to draw the attention. Yep. So, like, your role as a professional hunter, your role is to all of a sudden be the menacing one. And he wants all eyes on him. Like, he don't. He don't get to dive down. Do you know what I mean? He's gotta stay on the ground.

[Mark]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

Like that. That's what you signed up for. You're the. Like, there's. It's just not part of the ethos, John. Mean, like, if it comes, you're there and, and that's your thing. You don't get to flinch.

[Mark]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

You gotta go forward into it. And everybody else is expected to, like, save themselves. He's like, don't do anything. He would even tell you, don't do anything. That takes the attention from me. Like, I'm the problem. I'm the one up in his face, not you, you know, so. No, like, nothing like that. Like, other stuff. You know, we had a black. We had a run in. We talked about this bunch on the podcast, but previously we had a. We had a. Not even a run. It. We had an experience with a black mamba and you're like, holy cow. Like, I can so easily see how that goes. Yeah. You're like, I see how that happens with that. With my experience with Kate Buffalo. I wouldn't have come away. Hadn't I had the background of reading and the stories, I wouldn't have come away and been like, I can see how that goes bad.

[Brian]

I have, I have a question, and it's. This is not a. This is not a passive aggressive, nor aggressive aggressive question. And it's for all of you guys. That hunt, which is everyone here, given how we started talking about this because of the two unfortunate guys who died hunting Cape buffalo. And you were saying, well, you know, it's kind of. It's a part of hunting Cape buffalo. That's a risk. So you can't really say, oh, it's. You know, you can say that it's a bad thing that it happened and it's sad that it happened, but you can't really say it was totally unexpected.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, it's. It's like, it's kind of complicated. I don't want to sound.

[Brian]

That's not my question, though.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. Oh, sorry.

[Brian]

That's okay. My question is knowing that, like, if you on this hunt were to have expired because you got killed by a Cape buffalo, like, do you ever think some of the things that you're hunting, like, is it ever irresponsible to go on a hunt given your family, given other responsibilities you have in the world, like, do you ever think about that before you pursue a certain animal or.

[Steven Rinella]

No, because none of it's like, none of it's. None of it's like that also.

[Mark]

I don't know that and I don't Want to speak for those guys, but I don't know that what in the long run that what Steve did hunt, hunting buffalo is any more dangerous than going fishing or like, you name it, hunting grizzlies or like anything can get you right.

[Steven Rinella]

Hunting big fishing, big water and small boats.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

But none of it rises up when I, when I dudes that have families and die on K2, that, that I'm like, man, that's kind of a weird call. It's an odd call as a dad.

[Mark]

But they'd probably say, but they'd probably.

[Brian]

Say the same thing for you.

[Steven Rinella]

No, because there's a death for every four summits.

[Mark]

True.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Or whatever. Right. I think it's a death for every four. Something like I'm saying there is a point there, there is a point at which, where there's a point where the risk is so high and I don't condemn them, but there's a point where the risk is so high when a guy dies on K2 and you don't need to go on K2. Like when a guy dies on K2 and I see that he has a family, you know, I will think to myself, huh, that's a, like a strange call or like weird call you made.

[Mark]

Going BASE jumping or something like, like.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't know enough about the statistics on it.

[Mark]

Yeah. But I mean I would look at that as like. Yeah, that'd be your response.

[Steven Rinella]

Like an odd call.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

When you have kids. Yeah. You know, one of, the, first, one of the first times I ever really stop think about that thing like, like this kind they were talking about is Yanni. And I had the good fortune to spend some time with Roark Denver, who was a Navy seal, was deployed overseas, served in combat zones, combat veteran. And he would always use this, he had this like, like a euphemism for death. You know what he would say if I fall, if I fall. And I remember him saying that he went to his mom to say if I fall. And that was the term, that's the term use if I fall. I don't like, don't, I don't want you to be sad. Like don't be sad if I fall. And, and I don't think that way, but I, I, it was funny to hear someone, where someone in a certain occupation who had been been to such high risk environments that got to the point where that's how you think about it like that it's so high risk.

[Ronnie Bame]

That you're telling your mom how you.

[Steven Rinella]

Would like her to, how you Would.

[Ronnie Bame]

Like her to feel. But I like that tyre.

[Brian]

Military service, I feel like, is a totally different.

[Steven Rinella]

No, that's what I'm saying. Like that, like, that is like legitimately high risk. Climbing K2. Like, I think, like to be. Like, to be also.

[Brian]

Not just. Not just high risk, but like in the service of your country. Oh, it's like.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I'm not. What I was getting at. I wasn't. There's. There's. There's zero parallel. What I was getting at was I was. What I was trying to capture. There was. I was trying to capture. Like, what is the mindset of someone who does things that are actually high risk? Right? Like, not. There's. You can't even. There's.

[Ronnie Bame]

There's no. You can't equate it at all without.

[Steven Rinella]

Like me dicking around hunting with doing something like that. You can't equate it. But the point. I was like, the way Rourke had such a. And maybe it's over now because he's out and has kids and all that, but he had such a comfortable. He just arrived at a very comfortable place about it. Because it's actually high risk. Right? Like, remember there was a single helicopter crash that killed 18 guys, including, like in the, like, third. I don't know what it is.

[Ronnie Bame]

Thirteen or 14 seals, all like, bam.

[Mark]

I mean, they couldn't do their job if they. No, you know what I mean, if they worried about it.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes. Super comfortable. A friend of mine, like a kind of a friend, a guy acquaintance I had, a guy Knew died on K2. He'd lost most of his friend group already. Very comfortable, like, very comfortable with it because it's like, there's such a likelihood, like, he went once and got injured, wound up in a hospital, got better, went back and died. And it's like, I don't.

[Ronnie Bame]

There's no thing.

[Brian]

Is there any.

[Ronnie Bame]

There's no thing in hunting. There's no thing in hunting.

[Steven Rinella]

There's no thing in hunting that. That is at that risk level.

[Jimmy]

Do you know what the. Like, is there a statistic for injuries like cape buffalo? Is that even like a. I don't.

[Steven Rinella]

Know what that numbers would be.

[Jimmy]

I feel like it's got to be relatively low couple year.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, but I mean, there's not that many people doing it, but a couple year.

[Brian]

Is Brody and Giannis and Seth. Is there any hunt you wouldn't do because of the risk?

[Seth]

I mean, if. If there was like all of a sudden, you know, like say, you know, the Coups deer hunt in Mexico. Say all of a sudden it's like extremely dangerous and like to go there and a lot of people are getting like killed by the cartel, whatever, something.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, like mafia stuff. Yeah.

[Seth]

I'd be like, okay, I'm good. I don't, I don't need to go.

[Brian]

But not the actual. So like the circumstances?

[Steven Rinella]

No. Well, I can't answer Seth, but yeah.

[Seth]

Not, not, not an animal. It would, it would be the environment. Like the, you know, it'd be more human element, I would say.

[Brian]

Right.

[Ronnie Bame]

Hunting demands preparation, persistence and gear that will not quit on you. That is why I wear First Light. This isn't about hype. It's about no compromise gear built to perform, built to last. Whether it's their industry leading merino wool keeping me comfortable through the cold and the hot, or their durable outerwear shrugging off the elements, First Light is built to help you go farther and stay longer. Designed by hunters for hunters with a deep commitment to conservation and land access. No shortcuts, no excuses, just gear you can count on. Head to first light dot com. That's F I R S T L I T E dot com.

[Jimmy]

There's some places that I wouldn't like. I'm not experienced by any means, but there's certain places where I wouldn't like free dive at.

[Brian]

That's, that's an interesting.

[Jimmy]

Like there's, there's areas diving into.

[Brian]

It is interesting.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. I thought I had that but then I went there and it was not fun.

[Giannis]

You took me there, didn't you?

[Steven Rinella]

Well, then I went with Greg. Another time. Like NorCal stuff. Yeah, you know, and not. Shouldn't say it was not fun. It was like so much going on. Like it's so much going on. And then there's that. You got that stupid shark proof thing hanging off your ankle. Shark deterrent. That, that. Yeah. But you just get used to it. He just does it now and he's like, you don't think about. It's nothing you can do. You're not gonna know if. What if you get hit by a white, white shark. He's like, that's relaxing. You're. There's nothing you're gonna do. Other sharks, there's stuff you can do. He's like, with that shark, you're not gonna know and there's nothing you can do. And so I just don't think about it. That's, that's Greg's take on it. Greg dives that. Greg, that's cut. That's his whole. That's his own.

[Brian]

I wish Greg was over here. So we're talking about, like, how does he assess the risk? I mean, I understand that all of these things that we were talking, like extreme running or hunting in really wild environments, these are the things that make you feel alive. So you can't be so afraid of death and all the things that you're doing. But where is the line?

[Giannis]

But again, the odds. If you're gonna start worrying about stuff, the odds are that you're gonna get smashed by another driver driving around your town and get killed. That way before you get killed by a grizz or a Cape buffalo or a great white shark.

[Steven Rinella]

That's like. That's what the psychology is. Is. Is there's these fantastical things that suck up tons of headspace. So when I took Jimmy diving the oil rigs in Louisiana, like, it's just. They're just our sharks. It's not like what will happen if.

[Ronnie Bame]

We see a shark.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, there's just r. Every rig, there's just. They're there, like, bigger than you. Every rig, they're just around. And so I. Then I'm not worried about me, but I'm, like, worried about something. Like, there's a sort of mental irritation that that'll happen to him, but I'm like, why am I not having a bunch of mental irritation that he'll make a really dumb judgment and get himself in the prop? It's probably, like, far more likely that you're going to screw up and someone's going to throw it in reverse when they're not supposed to, when you're going to mishear that it's clear or whatever. Why am I not all day thinking about the prop, but instead, all day I'm thinking about sharks. But then you talk to the guys you're with. You're like, oh, this? That's from the boat prop. This, that's from the boat prop.

[Jimmy]

I feel like there's a level of.

[Steven Rinella]

What you're like, but you don't think.

[Ronnie Bame]

About boat props because they're not exciting to think about.

[Jimmy]

I think it's also what you're, like, necessarily used to, because, like, I'm just gonna say we're around a lot more boat props than we are sharks. Like, that's a. Yeah.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Mark]

I mean, the things you can't control are scarier, right?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Mark]

Especially when they got teeth or horns or whatever, you know?

[Brian]

Or you're just like me, and you worry about everything all the time, no matter what. Boat props.

[Jimmy]

And you're a mom.

[Steven Rinella]

You often aren't Worried about the right thing.

[Brian]

Tell me more about that, really.

[Ronnie Bame]

Well, no, you probably are, like, hanging around here.

[Steven Rinella]

You know what you ought to be worried about?

[Brian]

No. I mean, just. Let's add it to the list being.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, you're worried about the right thing.

[Brian]

Being in little skiffs in the big water.

[Steven Rinella]

Then all of a sudden, you're in the water and the boat ain't. Yeah, that's bad.

[Brian]

Yeah, that's real bad. I think about that every single time I get in the boat.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brian]

And I think about that every single time.

[Steven Rinella]

And the current is just, like, insurmountable. Like, you can't swim it.

[Brian]

I watch one of my kids get in the boat. I think about what would happen. Like, do you think about that?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Today, Mabel, someone said something about the boat sinking. And I said. She said, well, we're dead. And I said, no, we're gonna swim that way. She goes, I can't swim that far. I'll get hypothermia. I'm like, yeah, that's true. I didn't tell her. I was like, we're gonna stick with the boat. And I don't know. Like, that's the thing to pay attention to.

[Brian]

No, it's. It's on the radar.

[Steven Rinella]

But, like, when I'm diving around here and I'm thinking about. I'm like, boat props. I know they don't, but why don't killer whales bite people? Why don't they bite people? That's what I'm thinking about. I'm like, I know they don't, but what if they did? And I'm not thinking about, what if I come up and the boat's gone?

[Brian]

Right.

[Jimmy]

That happened once.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, that happened to me, Jimmy.

[Brian]

I didn't. I was not.

[Steven Rinella]

Well. No, we were by the shore. It would just been a sucky situation.

[Jimmy]

Well, if we were out in the middle of the ocean, we'd better.

[Steven Rinella]

Far bigger problem.

[Brian]

I mean, you've almost killed me in these waters before.

[Steven Rinella]

They did.

[Brian]

You hear about that story? Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Over at Greg's place.

[Steven Rinella]

He has GoPro footage yet, though, so. That's true. It would just be, I killed my girl. People would be like, I killed his girlfriend, not the mother of his children.

[Jimmy]

There's GoPro footage of him, like, diving around, like, on the bottom, around that chum bag in Sea lions, like, coming in at Frank's, coming in behind him, and heads going, like, here, and just going straight past him.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. I don't like those sons of bitches.

[Seth]

Those things seem mean.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, yeah. I'm thinking About.

[Jimmy]

Well, I mean, like, those do attack people.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Seth]

Just the way they swim through the water.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, their heads. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Well, in underwater, they spiral like this and, like, get all close to you and act all aggressive.

[Giannis]

You've seen that in the water?

[Jimmy]

No, but I've seen.

[Steven Rinella]

I've.

[Jimmy]

I mean, he just had. Him and Greg had a habit. I'm trying to stay away from those. They scare me. I've seen seals. I've gotten pretty close to seal. Seals don't do anything, though.

[Giannis]

No, I'm not gonna get in the water.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, we had one last talk point. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Brian]

No, I was just gonna say, I think that's when you can picture what people would say when you. If you were to die.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, yeah? What do you mean? And people be like, I wrote about that. I wrote about that. Yeah, for the.

[Brian]

The free press thing.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I wrote about that. When you're doing things, you can't live that way, but you're doing things. You just picture, like, you know, oh, that he would bring his children. He would put his children at risk.

[Brian]

But there's truth to it. I mean, there is truth to that. I'm not saying that that truth should supersede the other positive benefits that are, you know, gleaned by giving your kids the opportunities to do these really wild, adventurous things. And I think as parents, we are in agreement that that outweighs the risk. But it's sad to think, like, if you were to. If you two went diving tomorrow and you were to be killed by what? Be like, what an asshole. Took his kid out by what? By anything.

[Steven Rinella]

Lost our boat.

[Mark]

Lightning.

[Giannis]

Yeah. But I guess if he's struck by lightning, this is a little.

[Steven Rinella]

No, it's going to be dog. I need for getting struck by lightning.

[Giannis]

But, like, if you're. If he took his kid driving.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

That's a whole.

[Steven Rinella]

Another story in a.

[Giannis]

You know, in sketchy winter conditions.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

And then there's an accident.

[Brian]

Yeah. I mean, there's. I know there's always.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, the, like, the judgment part, that, that I don't. I'm aware of it, but the judgment part. I got enough problems if something bad happens. Like, the judgment part, I wouldn't worry about. And. And.

[Giannis]

When.

[Steven Rinella]

What's kind of funny is we'll close this up in a second. But when the submersible, the Titan, the Ocean Gate submersible, when it imploded, I was asked about, like an immediately. All these people without even knowing any of the story, all this condemnation. Oh, so stupid. What idiots. The hubris they deserved it. Right. And it was like before anyone knew the details, there was a ton of condemnation. I'm going to be careful with my words here because before the details emerged, there was an immediate condemnation. And it was kind of like, how.

[Ronnie Bame]

Dare you be risky?

[Mark]

How do you go where you're not supposed to be?

[Ronnie Bame]

How dare you be risky? We're gonna ridicule you for being risky.

[Steven Rinella]

And I almost wrote about that. I was asked to write about it. I was asked to write about risk and like, in this sort of thing where there's people feeling like they have.

[Ronnie Bame]

To just be so safe all the.

[Steven Rinella]

Time, in hindsight, I'm glad I didn't. Because when the story emerged about Stockton Rush, the CEO. Right. Of the company, and his attitude toward his own team, his attitude toward safety records, his attitude toward just basically the science of what he was trying to do was negligent to the point of that he kind of killed those people.

[Ronnie Bame]

Like he, he not quite did. He put a gun against him, but like he was toying with the hammer.

[Steven Rinella]

Right. He was playing with a pistol with those guys downrange, like to, to put it in gun terms. So then I was like, man, I'm glad I didn't do what I did.

[Ronnie Bame]

Because it, it was something bad.

[Steven Rinella]

And so there's that. There's like people that, that get into a thing where there's like an inevitability of what's going to come to bring it back to Kate Buffalo. And I respect him. You know, we talk about Morgan Potter, who's wonderful. Yep. Great guy, family man. But there you're like, oh, so you're gonna track a bunch of those and you're going to track three or four wounded ones every year and you're going.

[Ronnie Bame]

To do this for 30 or 40 years.

[Giannis]

Oh, I see.

[Steven Rinella]

That's an interesting choice. You know, it's like, that's an interesting choice doing that.

[Brian]

He was doing that prior to having a family.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brian]

That's like, you know, in many ways a lot of the stuff that you do, even if I don't like it or if I think it's too risky. You did it before.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brian]

We were married and had a family. So how could I ask you not to do it now? Yeah, like, it wouldn't be fair. It's not who you are.

[Giannis]

I don't feel like I do risky anymore. I just don't.

[Steven Rinella]

No, I don't feel like I do risky stuff. Well, you just win.

[Brian]

It just depends on who's the 100 mile run.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

What is It.

[Brian]

Some people could say have a heart.

[Giannis]

Give me a heart attack, maybe.

[Brian]

I don't know.

[Steven Rinella]

We just had a. We just had a colleague that was out for a run, had a tragic accident. Not an accident, but a health, you know, issue.

[Giannis]

Did I know about this?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, you know about it. You're the one that told me about it. Oh, One of our camera guys passed away. Oh.

[Giannis]

I didn't know the details, though, so I didn't tell you about it. Oh, sorry.

[Steven Rinella]

You sent it to me.

[Giannis]

Well, yeah, but I. But at that point, we didn't know.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, there's a GoFundMe for him. We had a cameraman.

[Giannis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm aware.

[Steven Rinella]

His is. We had a cameraman. He has children. His name is Mike Lindemuth.

[Jimmy]

He's.

[Steven Rinella]

He. He filmed. If you watched the Meat Eater TV show and you saw an episode where Yanni and I went hunted mule deer, for instance, in Wyoming with crooked sky outfitters. Like the cameraman that shot that show, he filmed.

[Seth]

He filmed here.

[Steven Rinella]

He.

[Seth]

He sat around this table.

[Steven Rinella]

Sat at this table. Missouri was up here.

[Giannis]

Parker Hall.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep, Yep. Okay. Yeah, he sat in this. Sat here. He was, like, out on a run and collapsed. So I don't know tons of details about it, but when he was imagining. I hate to do this. I mean, I hate to even talk about this. Someone that recently passed when he was imagining the risk in his life. I don't think he was imagining. No, that. Right. He was looking in. That. He wasn't looking in that direction. And this is not. I mean, I don't even want to kind of be, like, being. I don't even want to kind of get, like, philosophical about what his family's going through, like. Or, like, draw lessons from what happened to him. I mean, it's totally unexpected, totally tragic. However, there's just. There's like, the things you are obsessing over and then there's the things that are going to get you, and they're not the same sometimes for the. For the lucky few, they're the same. Stockton Rush, the Titan submersible guy. The thing he obsessed over, the thing he worried about got him. You know, and most people.

[Mark]

The thing some people would say, you know, well, that's okay.

[Steven Rinella]

He probably would have. I think he would. Last thought before we close. You guys are wondering why, how it came to be that I used to tease you guys.

[Ronnie Bame]

I don't think I teased you.

[Mark]

Oh, no, you did.

[Steven Rinella]

No.

[Giannis]

Yes. Yeah, Yeah. I think it qualifies.

[Steven Rinella]

Here's what happens. Why do why does that. Why do I now have one?

[Mark]

What is it with these guys in those Stormy Chromers?

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

Like maybe the term goofy hat.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

Would have. Would have.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I didn't know I was teasing.

[Ronnie Bame]

Something I didn't understand.

[Steven Rinella]

You want to know what happened? Here's what happened. There's a rancher that lets me hunt his place. And as I do when I get up, when someone lets me hunt their place, I always like to follow up with a gift. And there's nothing a rancher likes more than a Stormy Cromer. Yep. So him and his cowboy hat.

[Mark]

Maybe, but I see where you're going.

[Steven Rinella]

So him and his kid. So first light had a Stormy Cromer, a couple Stormy Chromer collabs. So I wanted to get one for the dad, one for the son. I got one of them, a warm one, and I got one on the wax cotton. But I want them to come to my house so that I could then package them with a couple other little gifts and send it as an annual thank you. And I got it. And I don't want them to listen to this and think I put it on, but I got it. And I was like, oh, I see. Because you order it to your size, and in a boat, there's no way your hat's gonna blow off. Door hunting, whatever. It's just suckers on there. And the bill is the right length and sits just where you want.

[Mark]

It's not too long, it's not too short, just right.

[Steven Rinella]

It's a little bit warm. It's not a hot weather hat, but.

[Mark]

Yeah, ones have their place, man.

[Steven Rinella]

But boating around your hat is staying where it belongs.

[Brian]

I think it's pretty interesting that as a thank you gift, you ordered something for two people that you thought was goofy looking.

[Jimmy]

That's a good point.

[Steven Rinella]

I thought it was a little bit stolen valor for, like. I thought it was like, it'd be like if these guys had big old belt buckles.

[Brian]

Yeah, he does now.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, he does now.

[Ronnie Bame]

Not.

[Steven Rinella]

It was just like. It was like. It's like. I view it like. It's like a. It's like a rancher hat, right?

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

He was trying to be people in the ag industry. So a guy that's not in the egg and a guy that wasn't in the ag industry. I was a little bit like, you're doing that.

[Mark]

I just want to know how long that thing sat there and Steve's like, looking at it.

[Brian]

Oh, no.

[Steven Rinella]

I knew minutes. I knew immediately. I knew immediately. I understood why it just happened.

[Giannis]

To be your size that you had ordered.

[Jimmy]

Well, you know, it's funny. Brody's son, last year at the Mule.

[Steven Rinella]

Deer, he was running one. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And you said it was the greatest hat ever made. And you told me about the history in Michigan, and we looked on the back and everything.

[Ronnie Bame]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

See, when I was growing up, still trash talk.

[Seth]

When I was growing up, it was like, conflicted.

[Steven Rinella]

I was conflicted.

[Ronnie Bame]

Here I am, I got the damn hat on.

[Seth]

When I was growing up, it was the. I never even thought of a rancher or someone in the ag industry, where it was always like, the Northwoods hunters. Like, sure. Folks in Maine, folks in northern Minnesota. What's got like.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no, no, no. Maybe Maine, northern Minnesota. I'd have been like, really?

[Mark]

Well, it's Michigan, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it's a. Michigan products.

[Steven Rinella]

Again, like egg adjacent.

[Brian]

I think that adjacent.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, if you were down. I mean, does it. I don't. We don't spend all day, you know, I'm happy. Some guy getting a cranberry scone in Minneapolis, you know? Yeah. I gotta be like, really?

[Giannis]

I find it interesting.

[Brian]

Cranberries.

[Giannis]

How many people country. The Stormy Cromer, to me, is a very, like, technical, functional piece of equipment. Especially when you compare it to a classic half plastic, half cotton baseball hat that most hunters are walking around in the woods in. That really. I mean, it gives you some shade, but other than that, it's like the. The fabric that it's made out of is not very technical. It's. If they get wet, they. It stinks.

[Mark]

They don't keep you warm, they don't keep you dry.

[Ronnie Bame]

I mean, what greater. What greater.

[Steven Rinella]

Capitulation could there be? Then here I am.

[Brian]

I just think, like I said, people don't hear you. And I was saying that you were wrong.

[Steven Rinella]

I wasn't wrong.

[Brian]

So I feel like everyone wants to hear you.

[Giannis]

I wasn't wrong.

[Steven Rinella]

I just. I. I wasn't wrong. I felt that there was like a.

[Ronnie Bame]

Just the same with cowboy hats.

[Steven Rinella]

There's. There's guys and I don't know. I know it when I see it. There's guys that should have them and there's guys that shouldn't have them.

[Mark]

So unlike the Stormy Cromer, you're not gonna wake up one day and be like, cowboy hat.

[Steven Rinella]

Listen, listen, listen. Me no business in a couple. If you ever catch me in a cowboy hat. If you ever catch me in a cowboy hat, I would expect you to punch me. Okay, I will never.

[Brian]

February.

[Steven Rinella]

I have no business in a cowboy hat.

[Ronnie Bame]

No business in a cowboy.

[Mark]

I'm just glad you came around on the Stormy Cromer.

[Steven Rinella]

I have. No. Yeah, I. I have business in the Stormy Cromer. Oh, yeah. You fit the part. I have business in my fur hat. I do not have business.

[Brian]

Cranberry scones for you while you're wearing it, is what you're saying.

[Mark]

He's not gonna. He doesn't.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm. What I'm on my way to.

[Mark]

He's talking about some, like, hipster with a curated look.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Like.

[Giannis]

And then I.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, listen, these guys I bought a couple for. It was a gift.

[Ronnie Bame]

I was trying to think of what. What could I get for them that.

[Steven Rinella]

They would like the most.

[Mark]

I think it's a great gift.

[Giannis]

Very nice.

[Brian]

All of us really like the hat. We've always liked that. You're the one who had that hat.

[Steven Rinella]

Problem, sitting there wearing some right now. Now, what I'm not gonna do. Yanni puts an elk ivory up front.

[Giannis]

That's not.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't even have enough personality.

[Ronnie Bame]

True.

[Giannis]

I don't have any with an elk ivory up there.

[Jimmy]

You do.

[Giannis]

No, I don't.

[Steven Rinella]

What do you have up front on yours?

[Giannis]

Nothing. I just. But I will say I just have mine tied in the little bow and I like.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't have enough bow.

[Giannis]

I. Well, no, but I like what you did, because that bow has a hard time staying tied.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Giannis]

Squaring out. You've committed to never turning cut it and burned it.

[Steven Rinella]

No, I think I did.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, put your flaps down. You just pull them down.

[Seth]

You pull them down on the screen.

[Mark]

Do they go down without untying that?

[Giannis]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Just pull it down.

[Giannis]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

You don't need to untie it thing.

[Mark]

Do they do that on the wool once, yeah. Why did I never know that?

[Steven Rinella]

I don't have, like. I could pull off a Stormy chrome or. No problem. Case in point. Now with a bow up front. No, no.

[Brian]

I think.

[Giannis]

Now you got me.

[Brian]

You're selling yourself short. I think you could pull off a bow.

[Steven Rinella]

A bow.

[Jimmy]

You got it.

[Steven Rinella]

A bow on my hat. Little bow peep.

[Giannis]

We did see a guy at the State Theater in Collinsview, Michigan, that I think had a pair of wild pig tusks tied into his.

[Steven Rinella]

That's a lot of personality.

[Giannis]

It is.

[Steven Rinella]

I don't have that kind of personality.

[Giannis]

But I liked it. When I saw. I was like, that's cool.

[Brian]

Why did Steve think you had.

[Giannis]

What do you think you have.

[Ronnie Bame]

You don't have elk ivories tied up on top of yours.

[Brian]

I love it. That in your mind, he does.

[Giannis]

I don't want to lose my elk ivories. My wool orange. Illegal.

[Jimmy]

Never wear a hat that is more personality than you do.

[Steven Rinella]

Never wear a hat that says hello before you do. That's right. Like father, like son.

[Mark]

I need an orange one. Mine's faded.

[Giannis]

Okay. We've gone long enough.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. People were bored by this.

[Giannis]

What do we have to do now? We just have to eat dinner and get ready to go fish again, huh?

[Mark]

Hopefully clean some salmon.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. The. The water's laid down, things look good. We got some bad weather coming in. We got some good weather coming up.

[Giannis]

Yeah. And our crazy little kids have gone out to the float and are swimming.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, they're always doing that 5 degree water.

[Giannis]

It's not even sunny.

[Brian]

Yeah, we should. That's something I worry about.

[Mark]

High risk.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Like 80 of mountain, one canoe.

[Mark]

I can't believe you let your kids do that.

[Steven Rinella]

All right, thank you, everybody.

[Giannis]

Thanks for listening.

[Ronnie Bame]

For gear that can handle the meat eater lifestyle, I trust Poncho Outdoors. This Austin, Texas company makes the ultimate outdoor performance shirts for men. I love that I can wear my poncho shirts in the field, out on the water, or even out to dinner. They're also poncho shirts. My main traveling clothes, man. The snap up shirts, dude.

[Steven Rinella]

Love them.

[Ronnie Bame]

So comfortable. They look great right now. You can check out all my favorite poncho [e-mail] Meater Plus Poncho offers free shipping and returns, so you can try them all out risk free. That's ponchooutdoors.com me eatery.

[Jake Hofer]

You've got the land, you've got the deer. But the season's closing in and your mind's racing with more questions than answers. I'm Jake Hofer and this is back 40, a limited series show on Wire to Hunt, part of Meat eaters podcast network. Each episode I'll be asking eight whitetail hunting pros a focused, thought provoking question about hunting and land management. How do I hunt the best part of the farm with less than ideal access?

[Steven Rinella]

Should you? That's what the real question is. Stand without good access is not a good stand.

[Jake Hofer]

Search wire to hunt and hit that follow button to listen to back 40.

[Brian]

Now this is an iheart podcast.