Ep. 754: How to Skin an Otter

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast

Episode 754: How to Skin an Otter
Date: August 26, 2025
Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Heather Duville (“Moosey”), Sea Otter Hunter & Skinner

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Episode Overview

In this episode of The MeatEater Podcast, host Steven Rinella and guest Heather Duville deliver a fascinating, highly detailed walk-through of the process of skinning sea otters, along with the legal, ecological, and cultural complexities of hunting these unique marine mammals in Alaska. Heather, legally authorized to hunt and process sea otters under the Marine Mammal Protection Act, shares insights into the practicalities, traditions, and challenges of her craft. The discussion illuminates otter biology, fur processing, wildlife management, and Alaska Native practices, peppered with anecdotes, expertise, and classic MeatEater humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Legal Context & Ethical Considerations

• Who can hunt sea otters?

  • Only Alaska Natives or individuals specifically permitted under the Marine Mammal Protection Act are legally allowed to harvest, skin, and produce items from sea otters.
  • “[W]hy it comes that she is allowed to hunt and skin sea otters. And why, say, me or my son James here, are not.” (02:41, Steven)

• Restrictions on sales:

  • “You can hunt it, you can skin it, you can make stuff out of it. You can't sell the hide whole, but you can make and sell products from sea otter.” (03:47, Steven)
  • Products must be turned into “authentic native handicraft” before sale—pelts cannot be sold whole.

2. Sea Otter Biology & Ecology

• Fur density as adaptation:

  • “Sea otter, you know, I hosed it off. But when you part their fur, that undercoat stays dry...they depend on their incredibly dense coat and these unique properties and their extremely high metabolism, which is why they eat so much.” (03:58, Heather)
  • Otter fur is noted as the “densest fur out of any mammal.” (03:58, Heather)

• Feeding & ecosystem impact:

  • An 82 lb sea otter can consume “20 pounds of shellfish per day.” (04:54, Heather)
  • Overabundance issues: “...they can decimate an area pretty quickly when a group of them...move in...” (05:00, Heather)
  • Sea otter management: “...trying to hunt to achieve some sort of balance in our ecosystem because there's just an overabundant population of sea otters and we're not able to harvest, you know, the shellfish that we used to anymore.” (08:16, Heather)

3. Skinning Process: Tools, Steps, & Tips

• Step-by-step skinning:

  • Remove paws first. “I start by removing the paws...some scars from digging.” (05:13, Heather)
  • “Cut around all four legs, cut around the base of the tail. Open it up from chin down to chin to groin.” (09:41, Steven)
  • Heather prefers working on a flat surface, often her truck’s tailgate. “You don't hang them. It works better for us to just skin them flat and roll them.” (09:57, 10:00, Heather)

• Tools of the trade:

  • Two knife types: a straight skinning knife (not drop point) and a smaller knife for paws/bony areas (10:06, Heather)
  • Special appreciation for a well-sharpened knife:
    • “The only other person that sharpened my knife and got it razor sharp, like my dad does, as you.” (09:08, Heather)

• Practical differences from land furbearers:

  • “I used to skin the whole thing...But since it's illegal to sell whole pelts...if they're not whole to begin with, they're less likely to go missing. And I haven't had one go missing since we...stopped sending whole pelts.” (06:54–07:33, Heather)
  • No tail/face retained, unlike with foxes or martens (06:39, Steven/Heather)

• Efficient processing:

  • Quantity: Heather has skinned “almost 200” otters in a year (05:55, Heather)
  • Time: First otter took her 1.5 hours; now she can do one in “about 10 minutes.” (16:43–17:11, Heather)
  • Skinning rough vs. clean: Leaves more muscle/fat, then removes later during pressure washing (18:57, Heather)

4. Flesh, Salt, & Cure

• Pressure washing for fleshing:

  • “I flush all these with the pressure washer. So as you can see, I'm skinning it and I'm just roughing it out...you can spend an hour skinning it real close, or I could spend 10 minutes skinning it like this and 10 minutes flushing it with the pressure washer.” (11:35, Heather)

• Salt curing:

  • “Let it drip after I flush it. Salt it, fold it the hot dog way...let it cure for like three days...and you have to hang it with a dehumidifier in my greenhouse, which is now my fur drying shed.” (12:01, Heather)

  • Salt use: “I usually go through over a thousand pounds of salt a year.” (20:36, Heather)

5. Historical and Conservation Context

• “Soft gold”—The sea otter fur trade:
  • “In southeast Alaska, it was sea otters brought in outsiders.” (22:14, Steven)
  • “Their fur was referred to as soft gold...It took a hundred years to wipe out the population.” (22:40–22:47, Heather)
• Recovery & modern management:
  • The population was nearly extinct in Alaska until protections in the 20th century.

6. What’s Inside: Otter Stomach Content Reveal

• A classic MeatEater moment—opening the otter up:
  • Speculation about the diet: “My guess is clams.” (24:35, Heather)
  • Smelly business: “Sea otter guts is one of the worst smells I've ever smelled. Are you ready?” (25:02, Heather)
  • Find: “Urchin. Crab. Is that clam? The shells right here...That’s an urchin, which I’m shocked it even found one.” (27:01–27:10, Steven/Heather)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On sea otter metabolism:

  • “They don’t have a fat layer like seals do…Sea otter depend on their incredibly dense coat and these unique properties and their extremely high metabolism, which is why they eat so much.” (03:58, Heather)

• On the challenges of the craft:

  • “I would go out and hunt every day if I could…But I prefer to hunt. I like to be outside on this, you know.” (08:16, Heather)

• On veteran skill:

  • “My dad teaches you, he shows you once...then he gives you the knife. So I’m out there by myself in the dark with the headlamp…it took me like an hour and a half and I thought, oh man, I'll never be able to do this…now I could skin one in about 10 minutes.” (16:43–17:11, Heather)

• On otter population management:

  • “They can decimate an area pretty quickly when a group of them move in.” (05:00, Heather)
  • “We're trying to hunt to achieve some sort of balance in our ecosystem…” (08:16, Heather)

• Historical reality check:

  • “It took a hundred years to wipe out the population. Yeah. And so in 1911, with the fur seal treaty...there was zero sea otters in most of the state.” (22:47–23:13, Heather)

• Podcast signature humor:

  • “Sea otter guts is one of the worst smells I’ve ever smelled. Are you ready?...Sometimes I do. Sometimes I wretch. Seriously?” (25:02–25:14, Heather/Steven)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Legal discussion and MMPA background: 02:41–04:00
• Sea otter biology and fur properties: 03:56–05:10
• Skinning walkthrough begins: 05:13–10:00
• Tools and efficiency tips: 10:00–11:00
• Fur care, curing, and handling: 11:35–13:05, 19:24–21:32
• Historical context and otter trade: 22:14–23:13
• Stomach content reveal: 24:22–27:01

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers an illuminating, hands-on look at a rarely discussed practice central to Alaskan subsistence and tradition. Highlighting both the intricacies of working with sea otter pelts and the complex social, legal, and ecological factors at play, Steven and Heather deliver a memorable, detailed lesson in modern wild harvesting, with plenty of wit and reverence for the subject.

“MeatEater Flop Episode: Sea Otter Hunter Skinner Heather Duville. Skinned an 82 pounder. The work has just begun. If you're curious, he did not eat today. Yesterday he had a quite a little variety. Hit a captain's platter yesterday of seafood items.” (27:43, Steven)

Transcript

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[B]

Okay everybody, welcome to a meat eater flop episode. This is the second flop we've done out of Alaska. The first flop we talked to a bush pilot who claims he's not a bush pilot. And those guys are all gone now, so. But a pilot that one would call a bush pilot who says he's not a bush pilot was fought one. Now we're going to talk to a genuine sea otter skinner, Heather Duville, AKA Moosey. Kind of the last of the dying breed or the not the last of a dying breed. The new specimen of an emerging breed of sea otter hunters. And before you have a heart attack, Heather will Explain why it comes that she is allowed to hunt and skin sea otters. And why, say, me or my son James here, are not.

[A]

Okay, so this sea otter was legally harvested because by the Marine Mammal Protection act and the agency, I'm able to participate and hunt marine mammals and work with their furs. So.

[B]

So you can hunt it, you can skin it, you can make stuff out of it. You can't sell the hide hole, but you can. You make and sell products from sea otter.

[A]

H. Right.

[B]

The sea otter fur is the densest fur.

[A]

Yeah, it's the densest fur out of any mammal. So if you look closely, you guys, this sea otter, you know, I hosed it off. But when you part their fur, that undercoat stays dry. So I brought a little piece of tanned fur, and if you dunk it under the water, you know, it'll look wet. But when you part the fur, that undercoat's always dry. And that's what keeps sea otter warm. They don't have a fat layer like seals do. Not really. Like seals have a thick blubber. Sea otter depend on their incredibly dense coat and these unique properties and their extremely high metabolism, which is why they eat so much. So this one weighs 82 pounds. We weighed it. So this one would consume, like, 20 pounds of shellfish per day.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So they have extremely high metabolism.

[B]

He's good for 20 pounds of shellfish a day.

[A]

Per day. So they can decimate an area pretty quickly when a group of them, you know, move in and.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

I start by removing the paws. And you can see it on its paws here. That has some scars from digging.

[B]

That's the cutest little paw in the world right there.

[A]

Got some little retractable claws like a cat. Then I just go around.

[B]

Okay, so you moved the front feet. Move the front at the wrist joint. You taking the back feet all the way off?

[A]

Nope, I just cut around.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And up like this.

[B]

Cut up to the vent.

[A]

And then same thing on this side.

[B]

How many otters are you skinning a year?

[A]

Last year, almost 200, and this year, I got about 120 so far.

[B]

Okay, and what number are you shooting for?

[A]

I've maxed my.

[B]

Don't keep the tail.

[A]

I've maxed my personal budget for tanning.

[B]

That's the limiting factor.

[A]

This is my last one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Until I could sell so some items and. And sell them and try to reconnect.

[B]

Because it's so expensive to get them tanned.

[A]

Yeah, it's about $108 a piece.

[B]

All right.

[A]

If you send a large Volume, you get a price break. And the price break is about 108.

[B]

I noticed you don't retain the tail.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm not saving the tail. And I also don't save the face.

[B]

So in that way, it's a lot different than normal, skinny, normal furbearers. Because in a normal furbearer, you want. You gotta have the tail and the face or else they'll call it damaged.

[A]

Right. And we can't sell whole pelts.

[B]

Yep. So you just want. Usable to you.

[A]

I used to skin the whole thing and keep the face and tail on the pelt. But since it's illegal to sell whole pelts and it's illegal for anyone who is ineligible through the Marine Mammal Protection act to obtain one, they've gone missing. When I've sent them off to tanneries, they've gone missing off air cargo from. From a tannery I had used. So if they're not whole to begin with, they're less likely to go missing. And I haven't had one go missing since we've had boxes of them go missing.

[B]

No kidding. Whole high. So if you. Even if you didn't sell it, but gave it to me, I legally wouldn't be able to retain this.

[A]

Right. Not a whole pelt. It has to be converted to what is called a authentic native handicraft. This is a male. Yeah. It has to be sewn into something where you can't make it whole.

[B]

Got it again. And then getting started here is your limiting factor in how many products you make. Because you make scarves, hats, mittens, pillows. Is your. Are you limited mostly by how many you can sew? Like how much you can sew? Or are you limited by how much you can hunt?

[A]

I would go out and hunt every day if I could. As many as I can, whenever I can. Because they're trying to hunt to achieve some sort of balance in our ecosystem because there's just an overabundant population of sea otters and we're not able to harvest, you know, the shellfish that we used to anymore. But I prefer to hunt. I like to be outside on this, you know.

[B]

You prefer that to sewing?

[A]

Yeah. And I. I reserve sewing for those late fall and winter months where it's pouring rain, blowing 60 dark. Yeah. My dad sharpened this knife. It's so sharp.

[B]

He told me he did. It's sharp. It's ridiculously sharp. So he said sharp. Yeah.

[A]

The only other person that sharpened my knife and got it razor sharp, like my dad does, as you. He sharpened My knife one time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like. So I took this first cut. I was like, ah. Because I got close, because I cannot get my knives this sharp. But you and my dad are pros now.

[B]

Just for people that aren't. This is on video if you want to go check it out on video. But there's a good chance you're just listening, so.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Heather has gotten the otter.

[B]

Cut around the bait. Cut around all four legs, cut around.

[C]

The base of the tail.

[B]

Open it up from chin down to chin to groin.

[A]

And we skin this on a table flat. Well, typically at home, I'd use my tailgate truck. So you don't hang them.

[B]

Why a tailgate?

[A]

It works better for us to just skin them flat and roll them.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Same as a seal. So we'd skin a seal the same way. I have two different knives. Not a drop point girl. This is my skinning knife. So I prefer a skinning knife that isn't a drop point. And then I have this flat, like a four and a half inch knife for roughing around the paws, you know, to remove them. And going around those bony areas is.

[B]

The bruising on the hide from getting in a fight with another otter.

[A]

Yeah. Sometimes they have bruises like there was one we saw here.

[B]

They do get out with each other.

[A]

They scrap. Especially these. These big males are pretty aggressive. And they.

[B]

Yeah, this sucker is like.

[C]

I. I just would never guess that these.

[B]

That they're as big as they are.

[C]

Like, you've.

[B]

You've gotten them close to 100 pounds.

[A]

Yeah, this one weighs, you know, like 82 pounds. But the. The largest one I ever got was 99 pounds. And.

[B]

You know, I got a question for you. Like, in just while we're on it here, just interrupt you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In, like cleaning normal furbearers, you never would want to skin them soaking wet like this. You'd always want to dry them first. How do you venture. How do you dry it?

[A]

So I would flesh it. I flush all these with the pressure washer. So as you can see, I'm skinning it and I'm just roughing it out.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because you can spend an hour skipping skinning it real close, or I could spend 10 minutes skinning it like this and 10 minutes flushing it with the pressure washer. So when working with large volumes, you want to be as efficient as possible.

[B]

And you're going to get it wet when you flush it anyways.

[A]

Yeah. And so then I would salt it, you know, let it drip after I flush it. Salt it, fold it the hot dog way, you know, in and roll it and let it cure for like three days. And that'll dry it out, shake it out. And you have to hang it with a dehumidifier in my greenhouse, which is now my fur drying shed. And they dry. They're cured and dried. So here's another bruise. See that on its back?

[B]

That's him duking it out with his bodies. Yeah, or enemies. So would a male like this be territorial over a certain area or do they move around?

[A]

I think so. The big males like this, they tend to be more like lo, this guy was alone, not with the pod. And usually when you see a single one like that. Can I. He's by here just a minute. Usually when you see one just single, it's typically a bigger male.

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[B]

How long did it take you to skin your first one compared to where you're at now?

[A]

I just talking about this. Oh man, I remember my dad, my dad teaches you, he shows you once. That's how he learned. Then he gives you the knife. So. So I'm out there by myself in the dark with the headlamp. You know, it's winter and it took me like an hour and a half and I thought, oh man, I'll never be able to do this. And he's so good at it and.

[B]

Oh, so your dad is good at. Was good at skinning otters already?

[A]

Yeah, like 10 minutes. So after a lot of practice, you know, now I could skin one in about 10 minutes too. But initially it took me like an hour and a half. I was pretty discouraged, but I didn't want to give up. So I'm going to turn this guy around and same thing on this side. So. And sometimes this is called the usyk.

[B]

Yeah man.

[A]

Sometimes those are broke.

[B]

Oh really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Huh. So I always check my dad had a term that would basically in Italian. What was it that you were a dead dick. That would. Well, that would. He would qualify.

[A]

You know, sometimes they're broke because they're pretty aggressive.

[B]

But. Huh.

[C]

You've seen broken Usyk's sea otter?

[A]

Oh actually don't know if I've ever seen the other kind of Usyk. But yeah, sometimes they're broken. Sometimes you find sea otter at bullets in them. And I, I have a jar. Every year I keep a jar and whatever I pull out of them. Bird shot. 22 bullets. 223 I pulled out of there. I keep them.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So now the otter's on his back.

[B]

She's skinning from the center line back the yard direction. He's half done, right?

[A]

Yeah, half done.

[B]

And then just. We won't see this part but just as you're doing this so you're gonna get this skin off and like you said you're going fast. So you leave on, you're leaving on a lot of. Leaving on a lot of muscle, some fat. We did a flop with some guys skin in Africa and they clean skinned so they didn't go back and flesh anything. They would just take two guys take all the time in the world just to totally clean skin something. But you're doing a rougher skin kind.

[A]

Of roughing it out because typically you'd hunt in larger volumes. So if you have 15 to skin and they're, they are incredibly dense fur is going to hold that body heat. You get the pelt off. Got it.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

You can't wait till tomorrow. They'll get a green belly and it will start to spoil.

[B]

So and when you. And you'll flash with, you'll lay it out down by the beach so you don't make a mess and you flush with a pressure washer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that comes off just clean.

[A]

Yeah, it's pretty incredible tool.

[B]

And then from there so then you got a soaking wet but clean flesh hide. And then you're laying it and really just packing it in salt, gonna lay.

[A]

It flat, let it drip, you know, and then rub salt on it just like you would salt any hide.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then both sides. Nope, just the, just the skin side.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sometimes I put just the salt from the table. It's you know, there from previous hides.

[B]

And I mean but a hide like this is going to use a few pounds of salt, right.

[A]

I think I can salt about 10 pelts with a 50 pound bag of salt.

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

I usually go through over a thousand pounds of salt a year.

[B]

Okay. So you pack 5 pounds of salt on a hide like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it has to be sit there how many days to cure?

[A]

About three days you want at least three days. We live in, you know, a really wet climate, so you want to make sure it's fully cured. Then you shake it out and hang it up to dry. I use a dehumidifier to aid in the drying process, or else I don't think it ever would dry. Where we live, it's just too rainy, too humid. And each tannery has a different preference and how you mail your pelt. So some. Some tanneries for sea otters, they'll flesh them for you.

[B]

Really?

[A]

So you just skin them like this, rough them out, salt them, and chip them. But the tannery I use wants them skin fleshed, salted, and dried.

[B]

Got it. What do you think of this matty, man? Yeah, I think you like Seth's camera angle.

[A]

Should we see what it's been eating when we're all done? My guess is clams hang tight for.

[B]

What it's been eating, buddy.

[A]

And, hey, we know the clams aren't hot if it's got clams.

[B]

That's true. That. We just eat them straight out of there. Okay, now you're on the finishing touches. You've skinned both sides back to the backbone, and now you're just skinning down the backbone.

[A]

So sea otter's on its belly, skinning, and it does have a little. Normally they're. This would be all purple, so no fat at all. Sea otters where I live on the other side of the island are pretty skinny, actually.

[B]

And it's. What interesting thing about these sea otters, too, is, like, you think of people that. People that first came when, like, Euro Americans first showed up. Well, not just Euro Americans. People come from Mexico and all over the world. Yeah. Showed up in, like, California was like the gold rush brought in outsiders. In southeast Alaska, it was sea otters brought in outsiders.

[A]

Yeah, they were. They were referred to. Their fur was referred to as soft gold.

[B]

Soft gold.

[A]

And it took a hundred years for, you know, Russians and the fur trade. It took a hundred years to wipe out the population. Yeah. And so in 1911, with the fur seal treaty was signed that ended the fur trade, there was zero sea otters in most of the state. I think there's just a few left in the Aleutian chain.

[B]

Took a century to do it.

[A]

Yeah, a hundred.

[B]

So I never thought about, like, I never thought about the timeline on that.

[A]

Yeah. And anyway, I'm going around the face here. So I'm just sort of cutting around the nose because I don't, you know, I don't save the face or the Tail. And then we can take a look and see what it's been eating. And I collect data on all the sea otters that I get.

[B]

That's it. Hides off.

[A]

Hides off.

[B]

Hold it up for the camera. Okay, Jimmy, help hold that up.

[C]

That's a slick table.

[B]

That's not actually a table. There's a lid to some kind of box.

[A]

Oh, no, it's hooked. There you go.

[B]

So holds off. No, holds off. You're fine.

[A]

Here we go. I could rinse it. It would look better.

[B]

About 5ft tall.

[A]

It weighed more than the halibut that was caught today.

[B]

Yep. Weighed more than a big halibut.

[A]

And we could see what it's been eating.

[B]

Okay, that'll be the end of the. That'll be the end of our flop is the reveal.

[A]

Can I set this right here, Maddie?

[B]

Man.

[A]

All right, Any guesses?

[B]

Maddie? Clams.

[A]

I'm gonna guess clamps.

[B]

How much weight will that hide retain compared to. Would this be a 70 pound?

[A]

Oh, that's a good question. I mean, because the hide has, you know, some of them.

[B]

Yeah, Mad. You can perch up on that table or whatever and stand and watch, but don't get in front of that camera. Okay. Don't block the view, but you can perch up and watch what's going on.

[A]

Any guesses on what it's been eating? Guess. Shrimp.

[B]

Shrimp.

[A]

I'm going to guess clams now. Sea otter guts is one of the worst smells I've ever smelled. Are you ready?

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Sometimes I do. Sometimes I wretch.

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

Yes. It's. It's. I never know.

[B]

You want to change your guess from shrimp? I like the sounds of shrimp.

[A]

He's guessing, Mabel.

[B]

What's your guess, buddy? What he's been eating.

[A]

Fish.

[B]

Fish. We got shrimp. We got fish. Kindly urchins. Urchins, Conley.

[A]

I guess clams.

[B]

You going clams? Shrimps. To clams. Connie, what are you guessing?

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Yeah. Damn.

[A]

It's the worst.

[B]

Like that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, that's strong. Who thought a sea otter's guts would smell so bad?

[A]

So I noticed in the warmer. On the warmer days, a lot of times their belly's empty.

[B]

Yeah, like his. Look at that.

[A]

Because they don't need as much food to keep warm. Oh, God. Nothing. Nothing.

[B]

Who guessed nothing? No, Connolly, you never made a guess.

[A]

You could see what it's been eating.

[B]

Yesterday, what he meant to say was nothing. When he held his. When he held his tongue, he meant nothing.

[A]

What about yesterday?

[B]

He hasn't eaten yet today.

[A]

Yesterday. Lord knows crab Is it crab legs? Is that what I see in there?

[B]

Well, that one's a crab leg. You see a crab leg in there? Look, right here.

[A]

This is. I just. This is such a strong smell. Oh, is this an. Oh, little crab.

[B]

Shrimp? No.

[A]

See the little.

[B]

What are you seeing there, Jimmy? Get your nose in there and tell me what you see.

[A]

Oh, urchin. Who said urchin?

[B]

A little bit of everything. Urchin. Crab. Is that clam? The shells right here.

[A]

See the needles? That's an urchin, which I'm shocked it even found one.

[B]

Taste that, Jimmy. Are we allowed to possess you? Do it all. Do it, Heather.

[A]

As gringos or No, I think that. I tried to check and I think there's no provision. I don't know. I shouldn't say this because I don't. I'm not.

[B]

We gotta look.

[A]

From what I. Yeah, I heard, I heard, but look, it's not. They're usually never intact because you shoot them in the head.

[B]

All right, there you have it. Ladies and gentlemen. Me Eater Flop Episode Sea Otter Hunter Skinner Heather Duville. Skin to how much? 82 pounder. 82 pounds into 82 pound otter. The work has just begun. If you're curious, he did not eat today. Yesterday he had a quite a little variety. Hit a captain's platter yesterday of seafood items.

[A]

Found an urchin.

[B]

Yeah. And we had a kid named Conley who kind of made the right guess by not saying anything when I asked what it ate.

[A]

Perfect. Nothing.

[B]

Thank you for joining.

[A]

Foreign.

[D]

This podcast is supported by BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect with via video phone or chat. Here's BetterHelp, head of clinical operations, Hesu Jo discussing who can benefit from therapy. I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're like having panic attacks every day. But. But before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships. That could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody. There's always a benefit in talking to someone because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people. So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody. Find out if therapy is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com today. That's betterhelp.com.

[C]

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[A]

This is an iHeart podcast.