The MeatEater Podcast Ep. 760 Summary

Teddy Roosevelt's Kids and Their Insane Quest To Kill a Giant Panda
Release Date: September 8, 2025
Host: Steven Rinella | Featured Guest: Nathalia Holt, PhD

Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful episode, Steven Rinella is joined by acclaimed author and molecular biologist Nathalia Holt, PhD, to discuss her latest book Beast in the Clouds. The episode zeroes in on the extraordinary, little-known true story of Theodore Roosevelt’s sons—Kermit and Ted Jr.—and their 1928 expedition to China in search of one of the world’s most mysterious animals: the giant panda. The conversation unfolds as a blend of outdoor exploration, history, family psychology, cultural intersections, and the early days of wildlife conservation—colored with the irreverent humor and curiosity typical of MeatEater.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mystery of the Panda in the Early 20th Century

[02:19 – 07:59]

• Until the 1930s, Western science debated whether giant pandas actually existed. It “was almost as if I’m describing to you a unicorn...” – Nathalia Holt [03:49]
• Early panda evidence trickled in through missionaries and hunters in China, but most samples were poor quality or incomplete, keeping their existence shrouded in myth.
• By the late 1920s, pandas became regarded as the “most challenging trophy animal in the world” and were believed to be dangerous, possibly aggressive—“like a polar bear that could climb trees.” — Rinella [07:10]

2. The Roosevelt Boys & Their Upbringing

[09:47 – 23:48]

• Discussion on Teddy Roosevelt as a father. Contrary to assumptions, he was affectionate and playful, but also put immense pressure on his children:
  “Ted, the eldest son, had a nervous breakdown when he was 10 years old... the doctor told Teddy Roosevelt, this is because of the pressure you’re putting on him.” — Holt [19:12]
• Both Kermit and Ted Jr. struggled under their father’s legacy and quested to prove themselves, especially after personal and professional hardships (e.g., Ted Jr. was implicated in the Teapot Dome scandal).

3. Linking Science & Hunting in the Age of Exploration

[31:46 – 37:06]

• Scientific collecting and hunting were inseparable in this era—museum scientists often were hunters, and acquiring a specimen meant killing it for study.
• The Roosevelts’ expedition was seen as unlikely to succeed: “Certainly nobody would have put money on the Roosevelts.” — Holt [36:37]
• Their party included Ty Jack Young (translator, NYU student), Sudham Cutting, and beleaguered British naturalist Herbert Stevens.

4. The Grueling Expedition to Panda Country

[39:29 – 47:50]

• The trek covered nearly 2,000 miles, traversing Myanmar, Yunnan, and into Sichuan, China—through dangerous terrain, civil war zones, and areas governed by independent Tibetan Buddhist lamas.
• The group encountered danger from bandits, lost mules, exposure, and suspicion from local peoples; they relied on gifts and diplomacy to gain safe passage.

5. Interactions with Local Cultures & the Yi People

[47:50 – 53:00]

• In Yi (Lolo) territory, the Roosevelts finally encountered people who had seen pandas, though even they rarely hunted the animal—regarding it as gentle and not a target for food or trophy.
• Reluctantly, Yi hunters agreed to help, assuming they’d never actually find a panda.

6. The Hunt for the Panda

[59:52 – 70:22]

• They finally spotted panda tracks in the snow—a huge moment after months of hardship:
  “At the moment when they finally see a bear print in the snow... it’s a really big moment in the book.” — Holt [60:17]
• The Roosevelts had a pact: if they encountered a panda, they would both shoot it simultaneously so they could share the credit.
  “It’s so infantile... Good Lord.” — Rinella [66:44]
• The panda was found resting in a tree, lethargic and peaceful—not the fearsome beast they expected.
  “This is not a polar bear. This is not a grizzly bear. This is something very different.” — Holt [69:17]

7. Aftermath and Consequences of Discovery

[72:30 – 85:19]

• The Yi villagers were horrified by the killing; the act violated a local taboo and the Roosevelts felt shame for the first time about their trophy.
• The hunting and collecting craze that followed their success greatly imperiled panda populations.
• Both brothers—especially Kermit—went on to champion panda protection and wildlife conservation. Kermit became vice president of the NY Zoological Society and later worked at the Audubon Society, lobbying for panda protections.

8. Fates of the Roosevelt Brothers & Legacy

[85:39 – 90:17]

• Both brothers died during WWII:
  • Ted Jr. landed with the first wave on D-Day, died days later of a heart condition [86:16].
  • Kermit, plagued by alcoholism and depression, died by suicide at Fort Richardson, Alaska [88:18].
• Their story illuminates the complicated and often tragic legacy of “living up to the Roosevelt name,” while also highlighting their underappreciated role in conservation history.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Up until the 1930s, it was debated whether there was actually... a panda bear.” — Steven Rinella [02:19]
• “It’s almost as if I’m describing to you a unicorn.” — Nathalia Holt [03:49]
• “Ted, the eldest son, had a nervous breakdown when he was 10... the doctor told Teddy Roosevelt, this is because of the pressure you’re putting on him.” — Holt [19:12]
• “This is not a polar bear. This is not a grizzly bear. This is something very different.” — Holt [69:17]
• “You can imagine that it was very prized for both men and women [to be guides]... half the guides on the trip were women.” — Holt [48:16]
• “They see Ted and Kermit as the savages in this situation, having to go through skinning this animal... to an animal they felt was sacred and gentle and that they didn’t hunt.” — Holt [71:04]
• “In 1930, they didn’t know about them. In 1970 it’s like, look, China: it’s a panda bear!” — Rinella [82:05]
• “Ted and Kermit became so passionate about protecting pandas afterwards, because they knew how rare these bears really were.” — Holt [83:12]

Important Timestamps

• 02:19 — Introduction to “Beast in the Clouds” and panda mystery
• 09:47 — The Roosevelts’ upbringing and family dynamics
• 19:10 — The pressure of being a Roosevelt child; Ted’s childhood breakdown
• 23:48 — The Roosevelt brothers’ pathway to the panda expedition
• 31:46 — How science and hunting overlapped for early explorers
• 39:29 — Logistics and dangers of the expedition
• 47:50 — Arriving at the Yi people and their cultural attitudes toward pandas
• 60:17 — The pivotal moment: finding panda tracks in the snow
• 66:12 — The “simultaneous shooting” plan and eventual kill
• 72:30 — Aftermath: shame, taboo, and effects on panda populations
• 85:39 — World War II and the fates of Ted Jr. and Kermit

Other Notable Points

• Panda Natural History: Pandas are highly specialized bamboo eaters, do not hibernate, are solitary, and ecologically and behaviorally quite distinct from other bears. Even now, wild sightings are rare and difficult.
• Cultural Commentary: The episode draws parallels to American attitudes toward iconic or sacred animals, exploring how perception and policy can be shaped by a single high-profile expedition.
• Conservation Legacy: The brothers’ transformation from trophy hunters to passionate conservationists echoes shifts in American attitudes toward wildlife in the 20th century.

Further Reading

• Beast in the Clouds by Nathalia Holt — A detailed account of the Roosevelt brothers’ panda expedition.

This episode offers a riveting window into the golden age of expeditions, the unexpected intersections between exploration and psychology, and a cautionary tale about the costs—and responsibilities—of discovery.