Ep. 776: Sea Otters, Skunks, and Brain Matter | MeatEater Radio Live!

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast – Ep. 776: Sea Otters, Skunks, and Brain Matter | MeatEater Radio Live!

Release Date: October 10, 2025
Host: Brody Henderson (with Steven Rinella, Corey Calkins, Phil, and guests Heather Duville & Guy Groenwald)

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Overview

This high-energy, humor-filled episode circles the wild world of hunting, conservation, and outdoor culture, live from MeatEater HQ in Bozeman, MT. Co-hosted by Brody Henderson, Steven Rinella, and Corey Calkins, with guests Heather Duville (Our Way of Life, Sheds) and professional fur buyer Guy Groenwald, the crew dives into Alaskan indigenous traditions, surprisingly lucrative skunk hides, the ethics of hunting regulations, and practical field tips—all delivered with camaraderie, thoughtful debate, and the classic irreverence of the MeatEater crew.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Show Open and Banter (00:56–04:51)

• Live, but not really live: Brody explains this “live” show is pre-recorded because Phil is off to Buck Fest 2025, documenting the World Championships of Big Buck Hunter (02:36).
• Big Buck Hunter Debate: Steve shares a story about banning his kids from playing Big Buck Hunter for teaching “bad ethics.” His friend’s pizza shop would provoke him by giving the kids quarters to play anyway (03:34).
  • "I thought it taught bad ethics." – Steve Rinella [03:34]

2. “MeatEater's American History” Series: Hide Hunters (04:15–09:45)

• Upcoming audio book release: Steve previews "MeatEater’s American History: The Hide Hunters, 1865-1883." Focus: post-Civil War buffalo market hunting boom on the Great Plains.
• Skills & Controversy: While the hide hunters are maligned today, Steve notes their “incredible skill set” and sheer work ethic (06:00).
  • “You have to, begrudgingly if, even if doing so begrudgingly, you have to acknowledge just an incredible skill set.” – Steve Rinella [06:00]
• Era-jumping: Possible future volumes on Alaska’s fur boom or Roaring Twenties bird hunting.
• Would you go back?: Steve says he’d pick the hide hunter era—or Boone’s Cumberland Gap—if he could “hit the go button” on a time machine, marveling at the overlap between early market hunters and the modern world (07:55).
  • “There were hide hunters that killed 10,000 Buffalo and lived to see Playboy magazine published.” – Steve Rinella [08:29]

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3. Heather Duville Interview: Tlingit Traditions and Subsistence (11:14–24:37)

Who is Heather Duville? (12:17)

• Tlingit name: Kink (Shankwedi clan, Eagle Wolf).
• Lives on ancestral lands in SE Alaska, practicing and passing on 10,000 years of heritage.

Key Topics

• Language and Command: Heather’s dogs only respond to Tlingit commands, to the amusement—and confusion—of the MeatEater team (13:52).
  • “Our dogs only know Tlingit commands, so they don’t know English.” – Heather Duville [13:52]
• Seasonal Life: After a summer of fish and hunting, fall is for quieting down and skills practice—like bark tanning hides. Heather proudly shows off her first deer hide, tanned and close-skinned for maximum utility (14:43–16:02).
• Hunting Ethics & Family: Story about learning by head-shooting deer, missing her first “body shot,” and the emotional weight of wounding an animal (16:17–18:23).
• Meat and Hide Use: Striving for full utilization—headshots save meat and hides, bones become soup, and a tradition of bark tanning with all-natural, earth-friendly materials.
• Media Representation: Her new MeatEater shows highlight indigenous perspectives and practical lessons, offering crucial exposure to Native youth—and plenty of humor courtesy of her dad ("...talks about having the runs in our first episode" [21:00]).
• New Fur Studio: Heather reflects on her new work shed built by friends—contrasting humble beginnings sewing everything by hand since age 12.

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4. “Indefensible Laws” – Debatable Hunting Regulations (25:29–35:20)

Native-Resident-only Tags? (25:49)

• Corey proposes giving a small percentage of once-in-a-lifetime tags (moose, bighorn, etc.) to long-term state residents (suggested cutoff: 20 years).
  • “Some of these...tags maybe should be given to those native residents instead of just, you know, the folks who just moved in six months ago.” – Corey Calkins [26:12]

Blaze Orange Laws (29:04)

• Steve wants federal law to restrict hunter orange to a simple hat during general firearms season—no 400 square inches, no vests, no pink alternatives.
  • “Hunter’s orange laws, going forward: it’s a hat.” – Steve Rinella [30:16]
  • "You’re breaking the law...if you’re more than a hat, they’re going to deprive you of federal funding—schools, highways, nothing.” – Steve Rinella [31:21]

Does and Antelope Regulations (31:55)

• Brody’s controversial rule: ban shooting mule deer does (and maybe antelope does) everywhere except for limited crop-damage control, to stabilize fragile herds.
  • “Drought, winter kill—those species are always, like, one year away from disaster.” – Brody Henderson [32:13]
  • Steve and Corey recount days of easy antelope tags, but agree the population swings prove Brody’s point.

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5. Guy Groenwald Interview: Skunk Hides, Fur Markets & Trapping Economy (35:47–52:09)

Skunk Fur Goes Premium (36:43)

• Guy reveals an unprecedented surge in skunk hide/tail value—once so unwanted that his company destroyed 20,000 skunk hides kept for 25 years (36:53).
  • “There was a time where...we destroyed like 20,000 skunk skins out of our freezer.” – Guy Groenwald [36:53]
• Why the demand? Orthodox Jewish “strimel” hats now use skunk tails for their long, stiff white fibers (41:11–42:30).
  • “It’s going for Hasidic strimels—the hats, the Jewish hats for Orthodox Jews.” – Guy Groenwald [41:19]

How Much? (45:40)

• Skunk tails pay $20–$50/each for prime, white-tipped specimens; novelty whole hides can fetch $15–$20.
• Cleaned tails are tacked/dried like furbearer pelts, with tips on using borax to prevent putrefaction.

Fur Market Outlook (48:33)

• Skunk prices likely to sit high “until trappers get too aggressive”; overall fur market improved versus last year (muskrat, mink, coon up, coyote still tough).
• $1,000 bobcats possible in the right regions.
  • “Bobcat market...pretty good on those as well.” – Guy Groenwald [51:57]

Conservation Angle

• Rising skunk harvest may benefit ground-nesting birds (by controlling mesopredators like raccoons, possums, and skunks themselves).

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6. Hot Tip Off – Hunting Hacks and Solutions (54:09–60:14)

• Prize: Benchmade Meatcrafter 2.0, buffalo jerky, signed MeatEater calendar.
• Wisconsin edition finalists:
  • Ryan’s Hot Tip: Use a cordless drill and a bent tent stake to remove brain matter from deer skulls for legal state-line transport under CWD regs (55:35).
    • “Stick it in the back of the skull and your reamer out. It’ll come out in goops.” – Ryan [56:15]
  • Kevin’s Hot Tip: Dedicated “kill kit” in a vacuum-sealed bag (game bags, zip ties, gloves, hunting license) to keep pack organized and items dry (56:50).

Judging

• The crew unanimously picks Ryan’s brain-removal hack for its originality, practicality, and “pain in the ass, messy” problem-solving (59:51).
  • “Using the tent stake on a drill for the brain matter—that one was new to me.” – Corey Calkins [59:56]

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7. Bonus Hot Tip – Husband/Dad Survival During Hunting Season (60:53–64:35)

• Ashley’s “Wife’s Perspective” Tip: Five steps for guilt-free hunting trips—
  1. Get her coffee.
  2. Clean the kitchen.
  3. Make lunch.
  4. Plan for dinner (thaw the meat).
  5. New activity for the kids.
• “She’ll never be mad at you for going out again because you still haven’t gotten [your deer].” – Ashley [62:25]
• Crew emphasizes clear communication and partnership: Do your chores, set up your spouse for success, and if you can, take all the kids with you (63:20).
  • “If you take all the kids with you, no one will ever get mad.” – Steve Rinella [63:25]

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Memorable Quotes

• “There were hide hunters that killed 10,000 Buffalo and lived to see Playboy magazine published.” – Steve Rinella [08:29]
• “Our dogs only know Tlingit commands, so they don’t know English.” – Heather Duville [13:52]
• “It’s going for Hasidic strimels—the hats, the Jewish hats for Orthodox Jews.” – Guy Groenwald [41:19]
• “Hunter’s orange laws, going forward: it’s a hat.” – Steve Rinella [30:16]
• “You come home a hero every time [if you take the kids with you].” – Steve Rinella [63:26]
• “Stick it in the back of the skull and your reamer out. It’ll come out in goops.” – Ryan [56:15]
• “Get her coffee, clean the kitchen, make lunch, plan for dinner, new activity for the kids. You’ll never get in trouble.” – Ashley [62:25]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:34 – Steve’s beef with Big Buck Hunter video game ethics
• 04:51–09:45 – Buffalo hide hunting & American history discussion
• 13:52–24:37 – Heather Duville interview: Tlingit hunting, bark tanning, and representation
• 25:49–35:20 – “Indefensible Laws” debate (residency tags, hunter orange, antelope/mule deer does)
• 35:47–52:09 – Guy Groenwald’s fur market insights, skunk boom explained
• 54:09–60:14 – Hot Tip Off (skull cleaning vs. vacuum-sealed kill kit)
• 60:53–64:35 – Ashley’s “Wife’s Tip” for harmonious hunting season at home

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Episode Tone & Language

• Friendly, direct, and informal
• Signature MeatEater banter, including teasing, storytelling, and offbeat humor
• Conversation flows organically: discussions are frank, practical, and include self-deprecating quips

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode gives you:

• Indigenous Alaskan hunting wisdom and hide tanning tips,
• Inside stories behind iconic MeatEater audio projects,
• A rundown of controversial hunting law ideas (with a side of state pride),
• Hard numbers and cultural revelations about the bizarrely lucrative skunk pelt market,
• Thoughtful (and hilarious) solutions for field logistics and family balance,
• All while keeping conservation and outdoor heritage at the core.

If you want learning, laughter, and a peek at the future of wild food culture, Ep. 776 has it all.

Transcript

[Heather Duville]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Steve Rinella]

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[Phil]

Smell us now, lady.

[Steve Rinella]

Welcome to Meat Eater Trivia. Meat Eater Podcast.

[Brody Henderson]

Hey everybody. Welcome to Meat Eater radio live. It's 11am here at Meat Eater HQ in Bozeman, Montana. That's 9am on the sea otter infested water surrounding Prince of Wales Island. I'm your host, Brody Henderson. I'm joined today by the man every elk in Montana fears the most, Corey Calkins.

[Steve Rinella]

I thought that was my cue.

[Brody Henderson]

No, that's not you. We also have a very special co host today that some of you might even recognize. That's right. Steve Rinellis back in the house. Welcome back.

[Steve Rinella]

Thank you. Man, it's always fun to be here.

[Brody Henderson]

Been a while.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

We got a big show today. We have Heather deville. She's going to talk to us about her life up in Southeast Alaska. And a couple of her new mediator shows me Stephen, Corey are gonna gonna lay out some indefensible laws that we're gonna defend. Anyway, we've got some primo hot tip offs out of Wisconsin and some advice for husbands and fathers during hunting season. And in the spirit of full disclosure, this is not actually live. We won't have any live chat feedback. And the reason for that is because the day we were supposed to record live, Phil's going to be out of town nerding out on video games. Phil, you want to tell everyone what's so important that you've got to miss a live recording?

[Phil]

Yeah, it sounds like you're making that up, but you, you're not. When you're watching this. Randall and I will be on a plane on our way to Nashville, Tennessee going to Buck Fest 2025. And BuckFest is also the grounds for the world championships of Big Buck Hunter. So Randall and I will be there documenting it, making some some video content that you guys can look forward to soon.

[Steve Rinella]

A bunch of good with that black backdrop.

[Brody Henderson]

I know.

[Steve Rinella]

Go back to that for a minute.

[Phil]

Oh, yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Good job overemphasizing that he was married.

[Steve Rinella]

He'd be. He'd be cleaning up right now.

[Phil]

Steve, don't.

[Brody Henderson]

Are you. Have you played Big Buck Hunter, Phil?

[Phil]

I was never a big like light gun. Like, I didn't play. I didn't have a Nintendo, so I never played Duck Hunt. And I didn't spend enough time in bars before I had a kid to be get really good at Big Buck Hunter. So it was never a. So this is a whole learning experience for me. I'm excited to check it out.

[Steve Rinella]

Is Randall good at Big Buck Hunter?

[Phil]

I don't believe so. I know Cal. Cal holds some pride for his. His bug hunter skills.

[Steve Rinella]

I used to forbid like his playing in it.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And my buddy Jimmy Dorn had a pizza shop and he had that in there. And he knew I hated Big Buck Hunter because I thought it taught bad ethics. And I'd come in there, the first thing do is hand my kids rolls of quarters just to antagonize me.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, I'm ambivalent towards it. I imagine you're going to see a bunch of non hunters pretending they're hunters there.

[Phil]

Oh, for sure. I mean, yeah, most likely Randall, I think is planning on dressing the part. I think he wants to go in full for slight camo and just hang out. So we'll see how that goes. But we've talked to the guys putting it on and they say it's a mix of. Of hardcore real hunters and people who have never touched a gun in their life. So we're excited to meet all the people that are going to be there.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, have fun.

[Steve Rinella]

Thanks, bro. Looks good with that black backdrop.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, before we get into the meat and potatoes of today's show, I need to let everyone know that the newest edition of our audio original book series, Meat Eaters American History The Hide Hunters, 1865-1883, releases next Tuesday on October 14th. You can pre order it now wherever you get audio books, audible, Apple books, wherever you can get them. Steve, you want to give folks ideas, an idea of what to expect from hide hunters, like some. Some titillating tidbits about the life of a hide hunter.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep. For, for those of you that have listened to or follow our Meat Eaters American History series, we've been focusing on different eras of commercial market hunters. So we did the long hunters, which were the professional deer skin hunters, most notably Daniel Boone and His colleagues. Then from there, we jumped up to the mountain man era, which was the Rocky Mountain beaver trappers. Big names from that era would be Jim Bridger, John Coulter, Jed Smith, and that volume tracked up to 1840. So for the hide hunters, we're jumping ahead to 1865. 1865 is the year that the Civil War ended. And we're covering the years 1865 to 1883, when the last 15 million buffalo on the American Great Plains were shot out by professional buffalo hunters, which we call the hide hunters. A very bloody time, very dangerous occupation. Even though those people are much maligned now and they're regarded as these great enemies of American wildlife. You have to begrudgingly if. If even if doing so begrudgingly, you have to acknowledge just an incredible skill set. It sounds funny to say it, but an incredible skill set. And I hesitate to say it to an unbelievable work ethic that. That propelled these guys out on the Great Plains to do. To do the great buffalo slaughter. So we. We cast some shade on them. We talk about their motivations. They were products of the Civil War. These are generally people that had no prospects in life. Poverty was rampant, and the. The American history pushed them onto the plains where they were. They killed 15 million buffalo. And in a decade.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

It's incred. It's an incredible story. And then from there we'll jump into whatever. We're still debating what we're going to jump into next.

[Brody Henderson]

You haven't decided yet?

[Steve Rinella]

No. We might do something about the birds, the bird hunters.

[Brody Henderson]

I know for a time you're thinking about whales, but you knew.

[Steve Rinella]

No, not doing the whalers. I think that we might jump to. We might jump to Alaska during the Great Depression for. Or sorry a lot. No, it would be Alaska and we would cover possibly Klondike to statehood, or we would cover the Roaring Twenties and end it at the stock market crash. Yeah. And do about surrounding fur, the Alaskan fur trade during the. During the real glory days when. When huge amounts of cash were entering that state and coming into the hands of people who had never had a cash economy.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, so you've done three of these, Steve.

[Heather Duville]

The.

[Brody Henderson]

The long hunters, mountain men, and hide hunters. And you can include the next one, too, if you want. In this. In this question, I'm going to ask you. If you could go back in time and pick one of these eras and professions to like, go do, which would it be and why?

[Steve Rinella]

Hide owners.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. That's surprising. Yeah. If I could do the. The, you know, if I could do the time machine thing. I've always said that I would like to go back to the first Americans to hit the Great Plains 20,000 years ago. 17, 000 years ago. Whatever, man. But if I was really sitting there and I had to hit the button, the go button, I might go back and go with Boone, Daniel Boone, the first time he went to the Cumberland Gap and spent two years in Kentucky.

[Brody Henderson]

Because that was still new territory. Like, the hidehunters weren't in, like, new territory necessarily.

[Steve Rinella]

Right?

[Brody Henderson]

Like.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no. When you get into the hide, we'll put it this way. This is something we point out a bunch in our hidehunter piece. There were hide hunters that killed 10,000 Buffalo Ind. There was an individual who killed 10,000 who lived to see Playboy magazine published. He lived to see the end of.

[Brody Henderson]

The Korean War automobile.

[Steve Rinella]

He lived to see the introduction of the Corvette.

[Guy Groenwald]

Wow.

[Steve Rinella]

Nuclear subs. And he was fighting commanches while killing 10,000 buffalo on the Texas wild.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, you.

[Steve Rinella]

It is this market hunting period that straddles it perfectly. Straddles what we think of as yesterday and what we think of as today. Yeah, you know, it's a crazy era.

[Brody Henderson]

Kind of makes living through the creation of the Internet not seem like such a big deal.

[Steve Rinella]

There were hide hunters who would. Who live to see the publication of a Sand County Almanac and who live and who experienced a person, Theodore Roosevelt, campaigning against market hunters become president.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. And crazy to think about that way.

[Steve Rinella]

No, they, like, they sat on the. They sat on the edge of something, man.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, so order that book and listen to it, and Steve will figure out what the next one's going to be before we get into Heather's interview. You guys planning any big hunts that are coming up?

[Steve Rinella]

I'm solid kid from here on out for a while.

[Brody Henderson]

Me too.

[Steve Rinella]

I got. I got a month of hot kid action.

[Brody Henderson]

Kid antelope, kid deer. Yeah, that's. That's fun, though. This my favorite.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no, I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have it any other way, man. Yeah, all kids all the time. Speaking of kids, I put some little kitty waiters on your desk.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, I saw that. Thank you. Yeah, we'll use those. Go looking for crowd.

[Brody Henderson]

Corey, are you done archery hunting or are you. No, no, keep at it till the bitter end, man.

[Corey Calkins]

It's only been a couple weeks. We still got a few more here in Montana.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, he's like. Kids. What kids?

[Corey Calkins]

Well, my kid's just on the cusp of being able to come with me. Yeah, he'll go out and toot on the bugle a little bit, but it's more of a nuisance than anything, so, no, I'm going to get back out for.

[Brody Henderson]

But you got to bring him, man. Oh, you got to bring.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, he loves it. But, yeah, no, selfishly going out myself.

[Brody Henderson]

Any close calls with bulls yet?

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I tried to get a couple buddies into some elk that second week of the season. I guess it would have been the third week of September, and we almost killed elk every single day, but they weren't, like, fired up like they typically.

[Steve Rinella]

Pulled your ball back yet?

[Corey Calkins]

Nope.

[Steve Rinella]

Haven't drawn no drawbacks.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

All right.

[Corey Calkins]

Knocked a few.

[Brody Henderson]

Let's. Let's get to the interview. I. I think Phil has a special drop here for Heather Duville. So you're gonna lay that down?

[Phil]

Yeah, I put it in the script, and then I took it out because I didn't know if you guys wanted to listen to it, but.

[Brody Henderson]

No, of course.

[Steve Rinella]

Here, man. I mean, we'll rate it. We'll rate it and see.

[Phil]

Oh, I think this is one that I haven't played since you were last here, Steve.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, so you already. We've already heard.

[Phil]

You've already heard it. It's the Fleetwood Mac one.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yes.

[Guy Groenwald]

Not.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm not familiar.

[Brody Henderson]

All right.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, listen to that Bas.

[Brody Henderson]

There we go.

[Phil]

Okay. Yeah, there it is. Nice.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, for. For those of you who aren't familiar, we're going to be talking to Heather deville, Her traditional name. Heather. I apologize if I butcher this stuff. Her traditional name is Kutink, and she belongs to the Shank. What I clan, which is Eagle Wolf. Did I get it right? Okay, don't worry about it. Then.

[Heather Duville]

Pronunciation. But I appreciate you trying. Thank you.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, you can tell us. Let me get through this. I'm trying to get through this, Heather. Let me get through it.

[Heather Duville]

You.

[Brody Henderson]

You live on the ancestral lands of the Tlingit people in southeast Alaska, and Heather actively practices and shares the heritage and cultural traditions that have been passed down for 10,000 years. All right, so. So tell us how you pronounce that stuff.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah, my traditional name is Kink, and I belong to the Shankwedi clan.

[Brody Henderson]

It is a. I didn't do that bad.

[Heather Duville]

Okay, you're. You're on the right track.

[Steve Rinella]

It'd be like if I called him Brady. If I call him Brady, and he's like, well, it's actually Brody. And then I go like, well, it wasn't that bad.

[Brody Henderson]

Right, Exactly.

[Heather Duville]

Ling it with a K. But it's Like a thl. Sling it and.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, well, Heather, do it like, do it. Do it where you. Because I know you. Yeah. There's a way you say it then there's a way you let people that wouldn't. That aren't familiar with the language say it like.

[Guy Groenwald]

But.

[Steve Rinella]

But do it like how you do it. If you were talking to. If you were talking to an elder, you know, from your. From your people.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah, I would. I would say sling it.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. But then people, people that are just kind of hacking their way through. It's like a.

[Heather Duville]

They say clink it.

[Steve Rinella]

Clink it. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Got it. I'll try to get it right next time.

[Heather Duville]

Thank you.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Heather Duville]

You know what's pretty funny is. Well, we're going to talk about the show, but when the team was up here, you know, our dogs only know clingit commands, so they don't know English.

[Steve Rinella]

That's great. So no one else can tell your dog what's up.

[Brody Henderson]

So if your dog's attacking someone and that person tries to say stop. Sit.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah. You gotta yell at them and cling it. So the meat eater crew that was up here were learning all kinds of words.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, Clingit, dog commands.

[Heather Duville]

That's herd the dogs out of the scenes and in the house.

[Brody Henderson]

Heather, I know you've been busy like all summer putting up fish and sea otter fur. And I think you've been out deer hunting already. Like, what, what else do you do you got going on through the fall? What's the rest of the year look like for you?

[Heather Duville]

Yeah, this is really. I think I was last joined in the spring, which is like the emergence of new life. And now we're entering fall, which is a quieter time and a more restful time. So I'm kind of grounding myself into a more balanced schedule. The salmon return. The leaves are turning. You know, it's getting colder. I did get a deer last month and I'm. One of my goals this fall and winter season is to practice my bark tanning skills. So I actually got the deer and I tanned. I successfully tanned the hide. Oh, really? Have it here?

[Steve Rinella]

Well, you. You got it done already?

[Heather Duville]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, wow.

[Heather Duville]

I have to soften it a little, but, you know, it's got a really.

[Steve Rinella]

You're kidding me.

[Heather Duville]

Suede side. This is done with tannin. So like a tree skin and a deer skin will make leather.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Heather Duville]

And it smells really good. And all of the ingredients that you use can just go right back into the earth. They're non toxic organic. So I was pretty proud this is my first.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, man. Congratulations. That's awesome. That looks great.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah, it's.

[Brody Henderson]

And you guys shoot those deer in the head, so there's no bullet holes in that. In that hide.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah, we try to shoot everything in the head to, like, for deer. We try to reduce waste.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Heather Duville]

Because we eat the neck and we take the neck bones and make deer neck soup. And I have a funny. I have a funny story about the first time I learned how to hunt deer.

[Brody Henderson]

Lay it on us.

[Heather Duville]

I had never shot anything in the body before because I just learned how to shoot everything in the head or, like, made right behind the ear. So we were hiking up and, you know, I didn't learn how to hunt until I was almost 30. So my dad gave me a rifle and I was. I hadn't missed yet. And I was like, dad, what if I was gonna shoot a deer in the body? Because I know a lot of people from other areas, you know, shoot deer, like in the side. I said, what do I do? And so he. We kind of stopped and on our hike and he told me so I was like, okay. And I was, you know, pondering that. And we get up to this muskeg and there's a huge buck right across looking at me. And it's like a four by five, the biggest deer I've ever seen. And he's like, oh, shoot, shoot. You know? Okay. So I get ready and I'm aiming for its head. And I was like, well, I'm just gonna shoot it in the body because then I'll for sure get it. And I drop down and I shoot it in the body and it runs away. And he screams like, what happened? And I burst into tears and I go, I don't know. And he's like, what happened? And I was like, I tried to shoot it in the body. Well, he gave me a 222, so. So anyways, I had until last year. And there's all this brush, right. And I just thought a bullet would blast right through brush. And he's like, you can never shoot through brush. You didn't tell me that part. And I lost sleep for like a week. I could not stop thinking about missing that deer. And it was big and shooting through brush. And so the learning experience.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Well, it seems like you've got the deer hunting thing figured out now, though.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah, we try to skin them real close, but you don't want to skin them so close where you score the hide. So definitely take your time and, you know, skin them nice if you're Gonna save the hides and then you can bark tam and you know, it takes like a few days to like let the hair slip and then about a week to bark tan and it produces beautiful results. And so now I'm, I just mixed up this morning a, a big tote of bark tannins because I'm going to try to do a hair on bark tan on a bear hide that was gifted to me this spring.

[Steve Rinella]

Cool.

[Brody Henderson]

You need to make Steve some buckskin britches out of those things.

[Steve Rinella]

I would like some buckskin britches.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

White ones.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Heather Duville]

Jam.

[Brody Henderson]

There you go. All right, Heather, you got a couple, couple new shows out on, on the Meat Eater Network, Our way of life, which really digs into how you and your dad live up there in southeast Alaska and everything you do out on the land and out on the water. And that airs every Monday night at 6 on our YouTube channel, the Mediator YouTube channel. You got anything to say about the experience of making that show?

[Heather Duville]

Oh, yeah. This is an incredible experience. I'm so grateful for Meat Eater, you know, sharing my story. And I really think of it as not my story, but this was a way for me to share a story that's much bigger than mine for our culture and, you know, the people that came before me and also for youth. So there's going to be a place now where you can look up, you know, about sea otter hunting or processing a seal and find information, whereas previously there hasn't been a lot of documentation on these processes.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, yeah. I think it's one of the coolest things we've done a long time. It's great. It's awesome.

[Heather Duville]

This, the first episode launched last night and I've just received an incredible amount of messages and phone calls and just all the love that I'm feeling from friends, family and people that I don't know, you know, from all over is really overwhelming. I didn't really know what to expect. I was kind of having a heart attack like this week, nervous about it, but I felt nothing but love and support and I really, you know, I have a 10 year old niece and she, you know, goes on social media and she talks about Taylor Swift and all these influencers. Right. And I, I really wanted youth to be able to go on social media, go on YouTube and see, you know, youth from here and see people like them and people they know practicing their culture and not thinking that you have to be like somebody else to be, you know, on YouTube or on social media and you can just be yourself and we are ourselves, you Know, my dad literally talks about having the runs on our first episode. He's like, I forgot the cameras were even there. So it's really funny. If you don't want to watch sea otter hunting, you could fast forward to five minutes in and catch a really funny scene. And the relationship between me and my dad is pretty funny to watch.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep, it's great. And the other show that you're in, Meat eater sheds. Are you in the shed right now?

[Heather Duville]

I am. I'm in my first shop. I spend a lot of time in here, the fall and winter months, and that was such a fun episode.

[Brody Henderson]

That's where you do all your. All your working on first. Like, all the stuff you make.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah, yeah. So previously, I didn't get the opportunity to share this on Sheds, which I wish I would have. Let me grab this. So my friends showed up with my dad last year and started building me this shed. So previously, I was working out of my two spare bedrooms and my kitchen. So my whole house was full of supplies and machines and all kinds of stuff for working on furs. And my friends and family have been so incredibly generous and. And showing up and building me this space, and I love this space. But until last year, I sewed everything by hand, so this was my thing that I carried everywhere.

[Steve Rinella]

That was your equipment?

[Heather Duville]

Yeah. So I had a little nail clipper for thread so you could take it on an airplane. Skin, sewing needles, my thimble that I've been using since I was 12. You can see I've reinforced the pad, like, three times. And so I want to also encourage people like, you don't start like this with the shed. Barbie shed. You know, I started sewing by hand. Every item I made by hand. It took hours. And I was working out of my house, so this. This feels surreal. I can't believe I have this shed.

[Brody Henderson]

Great.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, well, thanks for checking in with us, Heather. It was great talking to you and hope you have a good fall and good winter.

[Steve Rinella]

Thank you. Heather. Congratulations on that skin. Man, that looks incredible. I'm jealous of that. I got to check that out.

[Heather Duville]

Thank you. Yeah. All right.

[Steve Rinella]

Talk to you soon.

[Brody Henderson]

Take it easy.

[Corey Calkins]

Thanks, Heather.

[Steve Rinella]

When the temperatures drop and the rut heats up, your system needs to hold up. This is where first lights, core, and thermic kits come in. The core kit adds warmth without bulk. Perfect for all day, sits during shifting weather. And the thermic kit, it's built for the brutal, cold, silent, durable, and designed for hunters who don't head back to the truck when the Forecast turns because late October isn't forgiving. Cheap gear folds, bulky layers get noisy. First light helps you stay focused when everything else is working against you. There's, there's no shortcuts, no compromise. The long sit starts here. Head over to first light.com and get cold front ready. That's first light L I T E dot com.

[Brody Henderson]

Up next, we've got a segment we've done a time or two in the past called indefensible laws where we're going to make the case for passing fishing game laws and regulations that some folks might consider indefensible. But those folks are wrong because we're, we're going to defend them and make a case for them. So Corey, you're, you're up first. Oh gosh.

[Corey Calkins]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Just cut this one out, Phil.

[Brody Henderson]

Why?

[Corey Calkins]

Well, because this is coming from.

[Steve Rinella]

Don't even float the idea. Don't even float the idea.

[Brody Henderson]

I've heard Corey say this a number of times, so he's got to make.

[Corey Calkins]

A case for it.

[Steve Rinella]

Don't give it air.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, this is coming from a very disgruntled born and raised Montana here in a room surrounded by hope.

[Steve Rinella]

The FCC cracks down on you other states.

[Corey Calkins]

But I'd love it if game agencies, whatever state you might be in, and I think a lot of natives to their states would agree that some of these once or more than once in a lifetime tags maybe should be given to those native residents instead of just, you know, the folks who just moved in six months ago to be able to apply for some.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, I think if you've been like, if you did like, like let's say like 20 years in the state, you're cool.

[Brody Henderson]

Or there's like cumulative.

[Corey Calkins]

Or let's say there's like kids are in this boat.

[Brody Henderson]

Let's say there's like five elk, bull elk tags available and it's like special hunt special. Like. Yeah, maybe like spot one of those for a native or something.

[Guy Groenwald]

No.

[Corey Calkins]

Well, sure. Yeah, I'm, I'm really thinking like some of these critters that, you know, somehow they're not growing as fast as other animals like moose, bighorn sheep. Yeah, the numbers are just going down.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm into it. I just think you're cutting it a little. Like I think that like 20 years is co.

[Corey Calkins]

But as Brody alluded to maybe just having like a hard percentage of Those going to 20, a certain group of people in a bucket and I don't know, you know, obviously the 20 year bucket, you know, what hospital you were born in or Whatever.

[Steve Rinella]

I think you get kind of entering in. Like, it just gets a little hard to control. You know, if it's 20 years, it's cool. Right? It's easy.

[Corey Calkins]

It's just getting hard to draw those tags. I mean, I. I mean, it's always myself, never been.

[Guy Groenwald]

Oh.

[Corey Calkins]

But it's just getting harder and harder and harder.

[Brody Henderson]

By degrees, though. Like, how much harder is 0.04% versus.025%? Oh, right.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, twice. No one thinks about it like that.

[Brody Henderson]

No, no.

[Steve Rinella]

You're looking at the. Oh, you're like, ah, they're all the same. Like, they're not all the same.

[Brody Henderson]

No, no.

[Corey Calkins]

And my problem was I just didn't buy bonus points when I was guiding. I didn't think I'd ever leave the guiding industry. So there was.

[Steve Rinella]

Sounds like something. Maybe there should be a law that you. If you screw up and don't play the game, you should be just out.

[Corey Calkins]

Yep.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, you know, or maybe NATO should start accruing bonus points at birth.

[Corey Calkins]

That'd be nice for a while.

[Steve Rinella]

You could buy your kids bonus points in Montana. So my kids, my two year old had two bonus points.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Then they got rid of that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep. They kept the points.

[Corey Calkins]

That's nice.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

All right.

[Steve Rinella]

Anyway, now what I've been telling my kids. Here's the deal on this one. I've been telling them because I'm doing all this. If you draw. When you start drawing moose, sheep and go. And I don't get to come with, you're paying me back for all that going back to when you were a baby. You know what I'm saying?

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get to go along. No, I got to go with my dad on his most likely, once in a lifetime moose hunt a few years ago. It was amazing.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Steve doesn't seem convinced, but I. I drew.

[Steve Rinella]

I drew. Go. You know, I'm glad I drew well.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, Steve, what do you got for us?

[Steve Rinella]

Well, you know, I've been pondering this, man. And I was gonna do one, but I can't articulate it. The other day, I saw one of those Tesla trucks with. They had. He kind of had it. Yosemite Sammed out where he had, like, some, like, adventure stuff.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, no.

[Steve Rinella]

And he had a. He had one of them rod tubes.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh.

[Steve Rinella]

Mounted to the. And I was thinking, like, I could let it slide. I tried to just. I tried to be like, I didn't see that. I didn't see that. But I can't get it out of my head. I felt like Something died. Or something was born in that moment.

[Corey Calkins]

Died for sure.

[Steve Rinella]

But yeah, something died. It was born. But that's not my rule.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

Because I haven't thought of what the law would be. My law, and it's totally defensible.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm not a big, like, you know, I'm a states rights guy generally. Right. And I'm not for, like, the man coming down and, you know, busting everybody's heads about stuff. I think a good role for the federal government, a good use of. Of Trump's time would be that he comes in and he says. He comes in and he says, hunter's orange laws going forward is a hat. I don't care.

[Brody Henderson]

Executive order where you're from. Yeah, I like orange hat. I like it.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, I agree with you on that one.

[Steve Rinella]

So that no matter where, it's like, during general firearm.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

During general firearm. Not special seasons. During general firearm. Whatever your version of that is. Orange hat. Not all the vests, the 400 inches. Then you're like, you got your orange vest on, but then you got your bino harness on. Then you put your backpack on. You're like, well, technically, I don't have 400 inches because it's all. And you're all worried. A hat. Wyoming.

[Brody Henderson]

Hat or vest.

[Steve Rinella]

Wyoming. It's a hat. Yeah, Yeah, a hat. Have it be a hat.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. No, I agree.

[Steve Rinella]

A hat or less. Idaho and Alaska have no orange law.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

You shouldn't make them have an orange law. It's like, you can't be more than a hat.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, I got you.

[Steve Rinella]

That's what I meant. You're breaking the law. Kind of thinking about my law as I'm kind of like, I hadn't smoothed this all out the way I would like.

[Brody Henderson]

Right, right.

[Steve Rinella]

No more than a hat. If you're more than a hat, they're going to deprive you of federal funding. Schools, highways, nothing. Your state's cut off.

[Brody Henderson]

Where's hot pink fall into this whole lot?

[Steve Rinella]

No hot pink. My daughter made me order a hot pink vest. I send it back. I hope she gets a ticket. I hope she gets a ticket.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Who's paying that one?

[Steve Rinella]

I'm gonna take it off her lawn mowing money.

[Brody Henderson]

All right. By executive order, no more with an.

[Steve Rinella]

Orange hat or else. No federal funding for anything.

[Brody Henderson]

Gotcha.

[Steve Rinella]

Poor kids.

[Brody Henderson]

We should get that on the ballot. All right. My, mine. I don't know if it's defensible or not. I don't think.

[Steve Rinella]

No, do it. You're gonna get some. You're Gonna get some people. You're gonna get some. Yeah. What abouts. Yeah, they're gonna be like, well, yeah, what about, Right. But just, just go with it.

[Brody Henderson]

I, I, I don't think you should be allowed to shoot any mule deer does. Or antelope does any anywhere ever. Because like, drought, winter kill, like those species are always like one year away from disaster.

[Steve Rinella]

Always, Always.

[Brody Henderson]

Constantly. And we've just seen places where killing mule deer does, has, like, over time has had disaster effects on, on like regional deer herds.

[Steve Rinella]

Run with it. You're going to have some naysayers, you're going to have some what abouts, but run with it, like if you need.

[Brody Henderson]

Meat and like, I'm all for it. They're like, here in Montana, you can shoot, I don't know, 10 whitetail does if you really want to, if you.

[Steve Rinella]

Got a good gas budget, Right?

[Brody Henderson]

Well, yeah, but there's like, ways to get meat, and I just don't think anyone needs to be shooting mule deer does is the main thing. But I think antelope too, because they're, they're just like on the edge all the time. And in a lot of places, there's a general decline in antelope numbers. Like, tell us how you about your antelope hunt and experience back in the day, like what you guys used, they're.

[Steve Rinella]

Back to it now. We used to go, we'd go out, two of us to go out east to the eastern part of the state where, because you get all the doe tags.

[Brody Henderson]

Right. So how many doe tags would you guys.

[Steve Rinella]

We would go out there, we would leave the truck. Our rule was, you leave the truck, you come back with two, you leave the truck, come back with two, you leave the truck, come back with two. Every year.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Two hunters, six antelope. Then all of a sudden it's like, whoa, there's not that many antelope around.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Then it becomes hard to draw a permit. And all of a sudden now they're like, hey, kill all the doles you want.

[Brody Henderson]

Right? Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

$2 per.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And then let me, let me, me crystal ball this. In a couple years, it'll be, there's no antelope around.

[Brody Henderson]

Exactly. Because there'll be a bad winter and.

[Steve Rinella]

It won't, because they're over grazing. It won't be an overgrazing thing. It'll be, it'll be a weather issue.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. And a combination of shooting too many does for a few years in a row.

[Steve Rinella]

No, I could see it. You're going to have a lot of push Back on that one. It's not like mine.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, Like, I could kind of see an exception in on, like, private land for, like, crop damage tags where you get a bunch of animals concentrated in a small area. But that would, like, be the only thing that I might be willing to. To stretch it on. So there you go. I wish we had a chat going on so people could be weighing in on.

[Corey Calkins]

Don't get me started on how many years in a row I haven't drawn an antelope tag.

[Brody Henderson]

I'll tell you a secret that people aren't gonna like when they hear it either.

[Steve Rinella]

Don't do that.

[Brody Henderson]

No, no, I get. I get antelope tags and don't antelope dough tags. And I don't use.

[Steve Rinella]

He's like the PETA people. Yeah, he's like the people in Flor buying all the bear draw stuff so they can sit out the hunt.

[Brody Henderson]

Taking away opportunities from little kitties.

[Guy Groenwald]

Yeah, man.

[Steve Rinella]

He's like, subverting the will of the state agency like that.

[Brody Henderson]

Do's get a lot of should come.

[Steve Rinella]

Down on him, man.

[Brody Henderson]

Terrible.

[Steve Rinella]

Pull the plug.

[Brody Henderson]

I'll get some hate for that one, but that's okay. All right, so we got another interview coming up.

[Steve Rinella]

I would just. Y. Glad the chat off.

[Brody Henderson]

Only done it once or twice. We got our next guest coming up. Guy Groanwald from Groanwald Fur and Wool out of Minnesota.

[Steve Rinella]

Illinois.

[Brody Henderson]

Illinois. Sorry. Steve told me Minnesota.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, then I corrected myself.

[Brody Henderson]

I didn't hear you. And this is like, fur and trapping related stuff. So Steve. Steve's gonna roll with the interview. So here we go.

[Steve Rinella]

As Brody said, we're joined today by Guy Groenwald from Groenwald Fur and Wool. Guy happens to be joining us from overseas. He's. He's over in Europe right now, but he. We worked out the time zones, and he's going to join us. And the theme. What we're going to talk about is how there came to be, why there is. And an explosion in skunk. You heard it right. Skunk hide values some historic highs right now being paid for skunk heights. And if you follow the fur markets, and I always do, just because I think it's fun. And I used to, like, trap a lot and sell stuff. There's always these little bright spots in the fur markets and. And I can't think of any time in my life when there's ever been a bright spot around skunk hides. But Guy's gonna. Guy's gonna explain it all to us. Guy, in your whole career, skunks have always been a marketable furbearer, right? Like, there's always been some market for, for skunk fur.

[Guy Groenwald]

No, no. I mean, there was a time where I think we destroyed like 20,000 skunks skins out of our freezer. We just, we had stored them for 25 years and we thought it would never come back.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, it was that bad. Because the reason I said that, as I thought, and, and thanks for correcting me. I always thought there had always been some level of a novelty trade in skunk that, that kept the market alive.

[Guy Groenwald]

But it was, it was, you know, it was so small, you know, at one time that, you know, it just, you know, and we had, you know, some of the off grades, you know, you just, there was just no way to, to market them in the novelty market that maybe took a couple thousand skins a year.

[Steve Rinella]

Got it. Okay. Okay, so where, where skunk price has been hitting lately. And, and also, you know, before you answer that, maybe do this when, when you guys buy, you got, you guys buy from trappers, you buy from hunters, primarily trappers. When someone brings you a skunk, what are they bringing you? Like, just, just explain that product. Because people hear skunk fur and they think like, oh, it must smell bad, you know.

[Guy Groenwald]

Okay, so I'd like to differentiate. So the first thing is, is there is going to be for most skunks this year, very little difference between just bringing us the tail and bringing us the entire skin with the tail. There will be very little difference in price if, if any. And the only reason as far as selling to my company that you would want to leave the, you know, the animal intact and not remove the tail is basically if it's a black hide or almost all black. Okay. Because then it'll be sold into the novelty business. And even the last couple years before the tail business started, you know, the novelty business was kind of good. So, you know, skunks were starting to creep up as far as value. So right now, you know, there's still a market for novelty skunks. And you know, with tails, you know, most of them have to have tails. And you know, we have thousands of skunks that are placed now without tails because we can sell the tails, but we can't sell enough of the hides.

[Steve Rinella]

And give me real quick, give me. When the novelty trade is good and you have a, well, and you have a properly put up skunk for what would that skunk. What would that skunk for be selling for?

[Guy Groenwald]

You know, this, maybe 20 bucks.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Guy Groenwald]

Something like that for a really nice one, you know, perfect tail, you know, big size, something like that.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Guy Groenwald]

But, you know, the, the poor ones, you know, the, the novelty business, you know, you just couldn't move them. So, you know, it could be a zero. But, you know, before this, before the tail thing came, you know, you know, even a. A good one without the tail, you know, without or with the tail, obviously for novelty was maybe $20.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. Okay. And so when, when guys are. When you're buying just for the tails and we'll get to what they're. What's happening with them. But when you're buying just for the tails, you're buying. You want the tailbone removed, Right?

[Guy Groenwald]

The tailbone removed. And we want it like it's stretched and dried just like any other skin that you would stretch and dry. Or like if you stretched and dried the, the skunk skin, you want to do the tail, you want to remove the fat. I mean, if you're going to catch 100 skunks this year, I would buy a little borax. Borax works a little better than salt. And, you know, you don't typically put salt dry hide as far as the furbearer goes, but a little borax or a little salt on a, on a tail is probably not a bad idea. After you take the. After you take the flesh off.

[Steve Rinella]

So you're taking. They're. Let's. Let's just focus on the tails, I guess. So, okay, you're taking the tail, you're cutting the t. You're cutting the tail off at the base of the tail.

[Guy Groenwald]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

You're pulling, you're removing the bone. Then you're scraping all the excess fat and muscle off. So you scrape it down to clean leather, clean skin, which should.

[Guy Groenwald]

Shouldn't take you more than a minute.

[Steve Rinella]

Take. Shouldn't take you more than a minute. And then you're tacking it out. So you're opening that thing out on a board and tacking it out.

[Guy Groenwald]

Yep. Or putting a little screen across it or anything, just to kind of keep it flat and make sure that you go all the way to the tip, because those longest white fibers are on the tip.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Guy Groenwald]

So you want to make sure you go all the way to the end.

[Steve Rinella]

And then you dry it down. And if you want to add a little borax on there to help it dry, that's fine.

[Guy Groenwald]

That's. That's. That's probably a pretty good idea, especially, you know, if you're going to do any kind of quantity. Um, you know, that would Be a really good idea. You're not going to have any hair loss. You're not going to have any putrification, you know, so it's just. It does a little nicer job because that leather on the. On the. On the tail is a little thicker and just. It'll. It'll dry down faster.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, we'll get in a minute to what. Some of the what, what I deem to be like, pretty crazy prices being paid for skunks right now. But. But explain to folks where are these skunks going and why weren't they going there before?

[Guy Groenwald]

Well, they just, they. They're. They're going for, you know, Hasidic strimels. The. The hats. The Jewish hats for Orthodox Jews.

[Steve Rinella]

Can you pull one of those up real quick? Phil, are you. Do we have that technological.

[Phil]

It'll take me a sec, but I can do it.

[Steve Rinella]

Go ahead. Go ahead, guys. Sorry.

[Guy Groenwald]

And they're just. They're just. They just didn't use them. I mean, they. They find a, you know, a fiber that they really like and they use it. And it worked. It works. Well, they want something that's real long, they want something that's kind of stiff, and they want something that kind of waves and when they dance or, you know, when they move around. And so, yeah, that's. That's what they're looking for.

[Steve Rinella]

We're looking at it on. We're trying to pull a strimer up right now.

[Guy Groenwald]

Okay. I think we pulled one up last time.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep, there it is. Yeah. And so where. How are. How is the skunk. Is the skunk like, how is the tail being employed in that hat?

[Heather Duville]

It's.

[Guy Groenwald]

It's. They're just using the fibers.

[Steve Rinella]

But how are they getting them in there? Like, like, like, what are they hooking it to there?

[Guy Groenwald]

It's a. It's an intricate process. There's glues and there's interwoven and. Yeah, it's. It's a real. I mean, those aren't, you know, 300 hats.

[Brody Henderson]

You know, how many. How many tails to make one hat?

[Guy Groenwald]

I think for the really good ones, maybe 20 or something.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. And you say that's a $300 hat?

[Guy Groenwald]

No, I said it's not. I mean, it's thousands of dollars.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, so. But why did. Why are some strimels. 300 bucks and then some are thousands based on.

[Guy Groenwald]

I don't think anything's 300, but, you know, some of them are definitely a couple thousand bucks.

[Steve Rinella]

I see.

[Guy Groenwald]

Cheaper.

[Steve Rinella]

So that is, like, is it fair to say I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is it fair to say that this is sort of like a trend? This is a trend with that style of hat?

[Guy Groenwald]

It is, but, you know, this is not like, necessarily like. Like a typical fashion trend. You know, this could be used for, you know, for years. I mean, they've used that same hat that you had up there, you know, has sable tails in it. And they've used sable tails for years and years, and there's. And underneath it, they use fisher tails. And, you know, there's. They. They. And they've used them for years and years and years. And they do, though, sometimes change. They. They do sometimes change the look a little bit. They go a different route. Sable tails get more expensive. They more use more of this or more of that. But they, you know, they have used tails for, you know, years and years. They just haven't used skunk tails ever before.

[Steve Rinella]

Is. Are most these hats being sold in Hasidic communities in the eastern U.S. or are these being exported to Hasidic communities in Europe and Israel? Like, where are they winding up?

[Guy Groenwald]

They are there. Some of the. Some of the strimer is. Is all over, but probably the skunk is mostly just in eastern U.S. you know, Brooklyn and Jersey.

[Steve Rinella]

Got it, got it, got it. And then when people. If a consumer is buying a strimel, is. Is a consumer shopping just by look, or are they shopping where, Like. Like, if you're. If you selling. If you sell strambles, are you advertising it as to its contents, or is it people just buy it because they like the look, or are they going in and saying, like, I want one with skunk, I want one with sable?

[Guy Groenwald]

No, I mean, there's. I mean, I think even a pretty casual observer could see the difference and, and the difference in quality, the longer hair, just how much nicer it looks? I mean, I. I've seen him in person, and. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of the bigger the better, really.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. My question was very clear. I. What. What?

[Heather Duville]

I.

[Steve Rinella]

And you might not know the answer to this. Does the buyer. Is the buyer aware of what fur it was, what fur was being used? Or do you think it's just. You're just aware of the look and you like the look?

[Guy Groenwald]

I think they're. They're more aware of the look.

[Steve Rinella]

I see.

[Guy Groenwald]

Yeah, they're just. They're just like, wow, that looks, you know, that looks a lot more, you know, whatever you want to call that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. All right, so let's talk about. Let's talk about prices because this is where it gets kind of interesting. You know, I remember in the years I trapped, you know, I mean, like skunks, man, you know, three, four bucks. Right? So what could people expect? This coming as we're coming into the, as we're coming into the fall, coming into the trapping seasons, what could people expect for a good skunk tail? And what makes a skunk tail good?

[Guy Groenwald]

We're going to be 50, 35 and 20, depending on how good the tail is.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, 50, 35 and 20 and 20.

[Guy Groenwald]

And then if it's, if somebody brings in a tail and it's completely black, it's worthless. Okay. Now if he'd left that on this, on a skunk, you know, and had the whole skunk and it was a nice skunk, you know, just maybe with just a little bit of white, you know, the skunk might be worth 15 bucks. Okay. Because that can be used as a novelty skunk. But if they, if it's, if it's got a lot of white on it, you might as well just chop it off.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, so what makes, when you say a lot of white, like, try to help someone understand. So if they're looking at the totality of the tail and they're seeing that like 50% of that tail is white, where does that sit?

[Guy Groenwald]

That's probably a $50 skunk. Oh. I mean, if it's, if it's. But the only thing is like, sometimes we have to look at a few other things, like the ends. They could be like. It sort of looks like the, the fibers are like cut off at like three inches.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep.

[Guy Groenwald]

That, that could, that could also mean it's, it's not worth anything.

[Steve Rinella]

Can you see me pretty good?

[Guy Groenwald]

I can see a little bit. That's, that's a. Probably that, that would be, you know, 30, 35 bucks probably.

[Steve Rinella]

Huh?

[Guy Groenwald]

Okay, that's a pretty nice, that's a pretty nice.

[Steve Rinella]

That's a 35.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, this one kind of feels like a seven dollar tail.

[Steve Rinella]

Now we're looking. What are we looking at now? 35.

[Guy Groenwald]

Yeah, I'd say maybe, maybe even a little better than that.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm getting somewhere. Yeah, they're all.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude, I gotta tell you, man, if I was, if I was still, if I was still just like a Michigan kid with a bunch of traps, dude, I would be going nuts. I would be going nuts this fall.

[Guy Groenwald]

Yeah, well, you know, we, I'm, I'm certain that, you know, there's going to be more, more skunks trapped this year.

[Steve Rinella]

So, you know, who's getting real excited right now is turkey hunters because. Yeah, because like all those with fur prices being down for a long time. Sure. And you see these explosions of possums, skunks, raccoons, and you see like declines in ground nesting, bird populations that line up with those explosion and mid sized predators, small mid sized predators. It could be pretty good news for birds too if there's some interest. What other. Oh, sorry.

[Guy Groenwald]

If you trap skunked, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna catch all those other items as well.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. You know, and you're gonna have an easy time getting permissions. When you go and say, can I trap skunks? They're probably going to be like, huh. Well, give us another, give us a quick little snapshot. Last, last thing. We'll hold you here for. Give us a snapshot of, of fur market in general. Like, like going into the, going into the, the 25, 26 season. What's, what's the forecast?

[Guy Groenwald]

I think, I think I would start with skunk actually. And I mean the biggest question we get asked by everybody is this thing gonna last? Okay. And I, I think it's very similar to the beaver market. You know, three years ago when the beaver price went way up. You know, I, I think that we all thought there is no way we knew what the usage was. It's a very good market. The beaver, you know, hat market is still very good. It's just that trappers went out and caught way more than we possibly thought they were going to catch. And so the market got a little depressed. I, you know, there's, there's two types of markets that go down. One is because nobody's using the product and one is because they're producing too much. I mean, I like, I'm much more, I like a market that's, you know, being produced too much rather than a, a market that's not being used because it means I can still sell it. So it'll, it'll, I think the skunk thing, you know, will start, certainly start out hot. We need a lot of skunks and we'll just see how aggressive trappers are. And if they're super aggressive, you know, if you have extra skunks, you know, stock tails, what do you do with them? You know, nothing. So, you know, we'll figure it out as we go. But for, for right now, we'll start off hot. I think last spring, you know, when we ended up, you know, buying the, you know, we run all the routes for beaver, which is, you Know, into, you know, April and May, the market was very difficult. You know, we couldn't hardly sell a muskrat in April, May. We had a very difficult time selling raccoon in April, May. China's market, because of tariffs, you know, the economy there was, was horrible. You know, all those items, wild mink, I mean, you just didn't hardly want to buy it. You know, the guys brought their beavers, they had trapped those and that market had gone down. So you were buying all this stuff and you couldn't sell any of it. So compared to what the market ended up last year, you know, if you take those prices, which were, you know, which were, I'll acknowledge they were pretty bad. I mean, I would say almost every item is up. You know, wild mink will, you know, certainly they'll be double what they were last year. I mean, they're still not going to be great, but you know, you could probably see some $12 males which is, you know, you know, much higher than it was last year. I would say muskrats, you know, they were, they were unsalable, you know, at one time last year. They're, they're definitely stronger. We've sold a few rats recently. Heavy raccoon, you know, the semis are not so great, but you know, some of the heavies, you know, there's, it's just an item that's not produced that much anymore. You know, Wisconsin, northern Iowa, southern Minnesota, Nebraska, Dakotas, you know, that coon is still, is still a bit in demand.

[Steve Rinella]

So.

[Guy Groenwald]

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm a little bit more positive than I was maybe even at this time last year. As far as the market on most items, coyote market is still, you know, very, very difficult. But most items, they're certainly going to be a market for and you know, go out and trap them. And you know, if you're trapping skunks, you know, you might as well, you know, trap some of the other stuff. You know, some of the, you know, raccoons, you know, you obviously, you know, look for the better stuff. You know, you know, it's the, the stuff with holes, the stuff that's discolored. You know, things like that are going to have very little value. But you know, most stuff will, most things will be, you know, a little better than last year.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, last, last question. Are there are going to, are there going to be thousand dollar bobcats again this year in the right places?

[Guy Groenwald]

Oh, yeah, sure, I would say so, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Guy Groenwald]

Bobcat market. We're, you know, we're Pretty well sold out of. Out of better bobcats. So, yeah, market is. Is pretty good on those as well.

[Steve Rinella]

Excellent, man. All right, Guy Grownwald, thanks for joining, man. Good luck on skunk. Thank you very much.

[Guy Groenwald]

Yeah, we'll talk to you. All right.

[Brody Henderson]

That gets you excited for trapping season?

[Steve Rinella]

Well, I don't. You know, I just keep my stuff and use it for stuff, hats and whatnot. But I'm telling you, dude, if I was like, if you could go back, if I was like me as a senior in high school and I knew that I could be those prices on skunks, I would be.

[Brody Henderson]

Because they were a nuisance catch for.

[Steve Rinella]

You back then or be going gangbusters. You know, you tried, like, you did your best to avoid. Yeah, I would be going just to be able to be like, to try getting them right. I would be going absolutely gangbusters.

[Brody Henderson]

They're probably some trappers that are going, oh, yeah, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

Because you like talking like you can. Yeah, A bunch a day.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And it's just the tails.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

I would be going nuts.

[Brody Henderson]

Cool. Something new.

[Steve Rinella]

That's my whistle for that. Do that. Phil, you're probably good at it.

[Phil]

Nope.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, can we plug the live tour at the end?

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, let's do it at the end.

[Steve Rinella]

Arkansas, Sold out. Fayetteville, Sold out.

[Brody Henderson]

We still got stuff to go through here.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, I don't think we're done. I was gonna butt it in there. How was my interview? Did it go too long?

[Brody Henderson]

No, no, we're fine.

[Corey Calkins]

Perfect, man. Need you on more of these.

[Steve Rinella]

When the temperatures drop and the rut heats up, your system needs to hold up. This is where first lights, core and thermic kits come in. The core kit adds warmth without bulk. Perfect for all day. Sits during shifting weather. And the thermic kit, it's built for the brutal cold. Silent, durable, and designed for hunters who don't head back to the truck when the forecast turns. Because late October isn't forgiving. Cheap gear folds, bulky layers get noisy. First light helps you stay focused when everything else is working against you. There's no shortcuts, no compromise. The long sit starts here. Head over to first light.com and get cold front ready. That's first light l I t e.

[Brody Henderson]

Dot com time for a hot tip off segment. Since it's that time of year when. When a lot of you out there are about to get accused of abandoning your husbandly and fatherly duties. Not me. Doesn't happen to me. But I know a lot of you, it's. It's a problem. We got a. Oh wait. Did I jump ahead?

[Phil]

Yep.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, jumped ahead. Sorry.

[Steve Rinella]

Number six, Steve's skunk questions.

[Brody Henderson]

No, I know, I just. We've got a bonus hot tip off. We'll get to that. My bad. It's hot tip off time. Where we decide which two hunters has the best kernel of hard won knowledge and expertise. This week the winner is going to get a benchmade meat crafter. You want to pull it out, Corey? Meat Crafter 2.0 and both flavors of our our new jerky right there. Steve, you want to hold one up?

[Steve Rinella]

Classic pepper. What am I holding here? Oh yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

So the winner's gonna get that stuff.

[Steve Rinella]

Classic pepper. And Hawaiian teriyaki winners getting that stuff genuine buffalo meat.

[Brody Henderson]

And both contestants are going to get a copy of the new effed up old trucks calendar. It's signed, which makes it very valuable and rare.

[Steve Rinella]

Collector's edition.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Guy Groenwald]

And.

[Brody Henderson]

And today's hot tip off is a special Wisconsin edition. The cheese curd edition. We've got Ryan Beagle versus Kevin Hall. Phil, you want to roll the tape?

[Guy Groenwald]

Ryan Buntrock.

[Brody Henderson]

Hey folks, Ryan coming at you here from Wisconsin. I've got a hot tip off this week. A big forky for your out of state hunts when you have to cross lines and get the brains out of the skulls for CWD reasons. Pack your cordless drill and you can either bring your own little 14 gauge wire with a J hook at the end or if you're in a pinch, any old school tent stake and take your cordless drill, stick it in the back of the skull and your reamer out. It'll come out in goops. Dump it out. Take your standard issue water bottle or high roller. Get the squeezy one with the nozzle on the top from quick drip. Dunk her in the back here, give her a squeeze. Shake it out, reamer again, back and forth until you get all that stuff out of the brain cavity. Comes out like a goop. But you got yourself a legal skull for crossing state lines. Thanks.

[Corey Calkins]

That's brilliant.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, what's the next one? You like that one?

[Steve Rinella]

Hey meteor crew, this is Kevin. Coming at you from Wisconsin. For my hot tip. I'd like to discuss a dedicated kill kit. So when I'm preparing to go on any western hunt, what I like to do is take one of these garments, gallon sized vacuum sealed bags and I'll place my game bags in there along with a couple of zip ties.

[Guy Groenwald]

My.

[Steve Rinella]

Hunting license and hunter safety card. Maybe throw in a couple of rubber Gloves.

[Phil]

Then I always keep a dedicated skinning.

[Steve Rinella]

Knife with extra razor blades all inside this bag. I'll throw it on the vacuum seal here, pull all the air out of it. And once that's done, I now have a dedicated bag that I'll leave in the bottom of my pack. And it's only going to come out once I successfully harvest an animal.

[Brody Henderson]

Hot tip for you, man. It's a tough one.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a tie, dude.

[Brody Henderson]

It's a tough one.

[Steve Rinella]

You know what he should do with that vacc? You ever do this with your kids? Like when we're going somewhere, I'll take their coming home clothes and.

[Brody Henderson]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Vac seal their coming home clothes. Then they never get into them. There's a bonus in their head. It doesn't exist anymore. When you back seal their clothes, man.

[Corey Calkins]

I've lost usage for my vac sealer. I don't like putting meat in there anymore. So that might be a good way.

[Steve Rinella]

Microplastics shrinking your tank?

[Corey Calkins]

No, I just have a hard time getting every single one to seal correctly. Then the meat doesn't last as long compared to butcher paper.

[Brody Henderson]

And I feel like I. I don't need to keep conversation. Yeah. My license and. And my hunter safety card in there with that stuff.

[Steve Rinella]

I can see putting your tag in there.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, tag some states, but that they can't.

[Steve Rinella]

You can't ding them on that.

[Brody Henderson]

I'm just saying. I'm just making observations here.

[Corey Calkins]

It's a brilliant idea.

[Brody Henderson]

It probably compresses those game bags down nice. So they're taking up less space in your pack.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, No, I know.

[Brody Henderson]

But, man, I'm weighing in. I'm going with the skull cleaning thing because I've used like a piece of coat hanger.

[Phil]

Oh, yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

You know, I'm gonna try that.

[Steve Rinella]

Here's why I'm going. Here's why I'm going. Brain.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Slurry.

[Brody Henderson]

I.

[Heather Duville]

The.

[Steve Rinella]

The kill kit thing. I like it. But it's a packaging scheme.

[Brody Henderson]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Not a scheme. It's a packaging. It's a packing strategy.

[Brody Henderson]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Which is cool.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

But it's a package. It's like. It's like, hey, it's all stuff you'd already think to bring. But here's how to like. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

You might have it in a little stuff sack or so or in a pocket in your backpack. It's just a different way to do it.

[Steve Rinella]

So he's pitching us on how to pack it.

[Heather Duville]

Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

The other guy with the brain slurry. That's a legit pain in the ass messy. Oh, so he's introducing a. And you know, all due respect, I've heard that before.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, I, I, I, it's makes it more efficient.

[Steve Rinella]

But he's introducing a whole concept.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

So I'm gonna go with that.

[Brody Henderson]

And everyone's got a drill laying around, so.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, yeah, I mean I've heard the, the idea to vaccle your food and everything if you're really trying to compact your backpack if you're going on a multi day hunt or whatever. So that one wasn't new to me, but using the tent stake on a drill for the brain matter, that one was new to me. So I'm going for the brain matter splatter.

[Brody Henderson]

All right man, we got a winner.

[Phil]

Ryan, you're the winner.

[Brody Henderson]

Hey, congratulations.

[Steve Rinella]

Congratulations. Hard one.

[Brody Henderson]

But Kevin, you still get a calendar because your tip was pretty good too.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep, hard one.

[Brody Henderson]

So now, now we can jump ahead to the and Corey, those will get their contact and all that stuff to get that stuff out.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, for sure.

[Brody Henderson]

Cool. All right, we got a bonus hot tip for you today. Since I'll read it again, a lot of you out there are going to get accused of abandoning your husbandly and fatherly duties. So we got a very special bonus hot tip that we felt was worth its own segment. Let her rip, Phil.

[Ashley]

Hi, my name is Ashley. We live in Wisconsin. We're new to the area. I'm a wife of a new ish to hunting dad and we listen to the podcast every now and again and we thought we would give a hot tip for a tip off from the wife's perspective. If you need. Here's my tip. If you need more time because you haven't filled your tags yet, but you're worried that your wife will get mad because she's stuck alone with the kids again.

[Steve Rinella]

Uh huh.

[Ashley]

Here's my tip. It's five, five tips to get your wife to be totally fine with you going back out in the sand. Number one, get her a coffee. Set her up for success. Get her a coffee, clean the kitchen, make lunch, plan for dinner. Like take out, take out the meat to thaw. Plan for dinner, make lunch, get our coffee, clean the kitchen and get a new activity for the kids. Coloring books, new markers. Yes, you already have markers. But we like new ones. Fresh ones. Activity for the kids. Plan an activity for the kids. Plan for dinner, make lunch, get her coffee, clean the kitchen. She'll never be mad at you for going out again because you still haven't gotten.

[Steve Rinella]

That's a good woman right there, man. Because she's, like, laying out her expectations. Yeah. No, that dude doesn't have to guess.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay, good point. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, don't be a goober and just leave without, like, doing what you're supposed to do.

[Steve Rinella]

Or. Or. Yeah. Or you say, like, I get it. This is annoying. What could I do?

[Brody Henderson]

Exactly.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, I get it. Like, I could get the whole. I could see from your perspective, this is, like, a big ask. What can I do one. Short term.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

To. To help out and what. In long term, what can I do to, like, a little payback?

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. But I feel like you got to be careful because you, like, can't, like, get this thing where you, like, work yourself into a corner and you can't go.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, well, right. Year after year after year.

[Steve Rinella]

When his kids get older, though, here's his solution. If this is a thing, this thing for young dads, you.

[Heather Duville]

If.

[Steve Rinella]

If you take all the kids with you, no one will ever get mad.

[Brody Henderson]

Exactly.

[Guy Groenwald]

You.

[Steve Rinella]

You're. You come home a hero every time.

[Brody Henderson]

And they don't have to be of hunting age.

[Steve Rinella]

No.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

If you take them all with you, you could be like, I'm taking the kids out and I'm gonna throw them out of a tree. Have fun.

[Heather Duville]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

It's like, if you take them all with you, no one is ever, ever gonna get mad at you.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. And you can be preemptive about it. You could take them camping over the summer, like, before hunting season, and. And give the spouse a break for a weekend.

[Steve Rinella]

Sure.

[Brody Henderson]

Then. Then you're ahead of the game.

[Steve Rinella]

People love their kids, but there's a lot. Most people are like, dude, if you're gonna take them and go away for a couple days, please.

[Brody Henderson]

Yes.

[Steve Rinella]

Then you don't have to worry about anybody being mad.

[Brody Henderson]

But Ashley made some great points, so thanks for sharing, Ashley. We're also going to give you one of the signed calendars and. And your husband could put that up in the garage and, like, mark times when you should be taking care of the kids instead of you.

[Steve Rinella]

Coffee, Check. Kitchen, Check.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

Markers, check.

[Corey Calkins]

Lunch.

[Brody Henderson]

Use that calendar the way it's supposed to be used.

[Steve Rinella]

Meat thawed. I like that little detail.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, that's a big one.

[Corey Calkins]

Rake out that burger.

[Steve Rinella]

Get that burger thawed out.

[Corey Calkins]

Thanks, Ashley.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. Thanks. Thanks, everyone, for joining. That's the end of this week's show. We'll see you guys next week. Next Thursday on October 16th. And everything's going to be live. So the. The chat room will be back, and we can. We can talk with you guys as we go. So thanks everyone, for tuning.

[Guy Groenwald]

Foreign.

[Steve Rinella]

The rut heats up. Your system needs to hold up. This is where First Light's core and thermic kits come in. The core kit adds warmth without bulk, perfect for all day, sits during shifting weather. And the Thermic kit? It's built for the brutal, cold, silent, durable, and designed for hunters who don't head back to the truck when the forecast turns. Because late October isn't forgiving, Cheap gear folds bulky layers get noisy. First Light helps you stay focused when everything else is working against you. There's no shortcuts, no compromise. The long sit starts here. Head over to first light.com and get cold front ready. That's first light. L I t e dot com this.

[Heather Duville]

Is an I Heart podcast.