Transcript

Steve Rinella (0:00)

This is an iHeart podcast.

Steve (0:04)

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Solomon David (2:47)

I mean, I'm in that too as well.

Steve (2:48)

But then I realized this Gic park.

Solomon David (2:50)

Why not both Steve, going to get into that?

Steve (2:52)

We're going to get into this. That's going to be my first question, but I don't want to ask it yet. Solomon David is a aquatic ecologist and assistant professor. Works on fish biodiversity, conservation, science, communication, and runs the GAR Lab. It's like a colloquial term. GAR Lab focuses on the ecology of migratory and ancient fishes and how that research can help us better understand and conserve aquatic ecosystems. Additional projects involve conservation of Great Lakes migratory fishes. I'm assuming you mean the. The native ones.

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast — Ep. 793: The Mysteries of Gar Fish

Host: Steve Rinella
Guest: Dr. Solomon David, Aquatic Ecologist, “The Gar Guy”
Date: November 17, 2025

Overview

In this deeply engaging episode, Steve Rinella dives into the misunderstood world of gar fish and "rough fish" with Dr. Solomon David, an aquatic ecologist who specializes in fish biodiversity and conservation. The conversation tackles the cultural baggage around native fishes like gar, bowfin, and buffalo, exposes the roots and consequences of the "rough fish" label, and spotlights current efforts to rethink and regulate the management of overlooked native species. The episode blends science, conservation, angling, and history with a hearty dose of humor, lore, and hands-on fish tales.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Who is Dr. Solomon David and What is GAR Lab?

[02:47, 11:16]

Dr. Solomon David is an aquatic ecologist and assistant professor who runs the GAR Lab. The lab started out studying gars but now includes other ancient and migratory non-game fishes, like bowfins and buffalo.
GAR Lab’s mission: Use underappreciated fish to understand ecology, evolution, fisheries management, and to communicate freshwater biodiversity's value.
GAR Lab has expanded beyond just gars, akin to how the Big Ten conference has more than ten schools:

“GAR Lab started with GAR, but, you know, now we're expanding.” — Solomon David [11:17]
There are only seven gar species, so the lab broadened its focus.
Funding for non-game fish work is limited compared to game species; much more research focuses on trout, bass, and salmon.

2. “Rough Fish,” “Trash Fish,” and the Language of Fish Value

[03:34, 07:29, 15:13]

The term rough fish originated in the 19th century from commercial fishing — “less valuable” fish that were gutted but not filleted and often discarded.
In the Midwest, “rough fish” are those with little to no regulation and easy harvest; this includes many native species that were culturally important.

“We were using [‘rough fish’] as a catch-all for non-game, unregulated fish... but some fragile native fish get rolled into this category of trash fish and get laid waste.” — Steve Rinella [09:49]
The label contributes to underprotection, wanton waste, and ecological ignorance.

“We value some fish more than others... It gets kind of foggy—it is more of a colonial perspective.... People hadn't seen a gar before North America. And they're looking at this—'We can't fillet this like a walleye or a trout.'” — Solomon David [16:30]

3. Historical and Indigenous Use of Gar and Bowfin

[18:20, 19:23]

Native Americans ate gar and bowfin; gar scales were used for arrowheads, jewelry, and even plow linings by settlers due to their toughness.

“You find arrowheads that were made out of gar scales... those scales are basically made out of tooth enamel. That's the hardest substance our bodies produce.” — Solomon David [18:41]
Bowfin is still eaten in places like Louisiana, where it’s known as “shoe pick.” Its flesh quickly turns mushy, so it must be quickly processed after harvesting.

“They call them cotton fish, because the flesh turns to mush... you gotta process them as quickly as you can. And it was delicious.” — Solomon David [20:10]

4. Gar Biology 101: Species, Age, and "Living Fossils"

[14:00, 22:18, 23:27]

North America’s gar species: Alligator, spotted, shortnose, longnose, Florida, Cuban, and tropical gar.
Alligator gar is the largest (can exceed 8'), a true "destination fish" in Texas—catch and release has built its popularity.
Gars have ancient evolutionary lineage (fossils 150 million years old); they’ve hardly changed since the Jurassic—hence “living fossils”.

“If you look at a fossil gar and a living gar, they basically look the same.” — Solomon David [22:35]
“Living fossil” is an imprecise term; evolutionary biologists bristle, but gars truly have a slow molecular clock.

5. Conservation Headaches: Bowfishing, Regulation, and Identity

[45:49, 50:44, 51:30]

Poorly regulated bowfishing disproportionately impacts native predators like gar and buffalo.

“You want to shoot something, shoot carp, shoot invasive species, shoot as many as you want... but the gars, there's fewer of them... when you take out a large number of these predatory animals that also live for a long time...” — Solomon David [67:03]
Minnesota is pioneering regulation: differentiating between native “rough fish” and invasive fish, enacting harvest regulations and penalties for wanton waste.

“Minnesota, very recently in 2024, enacted the most comprehensive native fish conservation bill, putting it into law, where they did one of the first things of separating common carp from the other native non-game fish.” — Solomon David [51:30]
States resist stricter regs, claiming anglers/bowfishers “can’t tell the difference” between carp and buffalo.

“How can you expect someone to tell a carp from a buffalo? I don't know, how do you expect them to tell a widgeon from a gadwall?” — Steve Rinella [50:53]

6. Gar Life History and Ecology

[36:08, 38:07, 40:19]

Alligator gar can be over 100 years old; 100-pounders are typically several decades old.
Gar eggs are poisonous to mammals, birds, and crustaceans—not to fish.

“Gar eggs are poisonous... not toxic to fish, but will kill the crawfish, will kill the birds.” — Solomon David [41:55, 122:21]
Gars switch to eating fish early and can cannibalize.
Alligator gars can tolerate salt water but need fresh floodplains to spawn, relying on seasonal overflows to access terrestrial vegetation for egg-laying.

“They need that big flood pulse and you don’t get those big floods every year, so they have to take advantage.” — Solomon David [37:04]

7. Fisheries Management Parallels and Solutions

[47:26, 76:32]

Fish management lags behind birds/mammals in regulatory rigor, especially for non-game/frequently maligned native fish.
The “Rinella Solution”: States should clearly categorize and regulate fish as native or non-native/invasive—native fish should have limits and protections.

“Native fish have bag limits... You’re obligated to tell all kinds of shit [apart] in hunting. Why not with fish?” — Steve Rinella [50:44]
"Protection" should be framed as "regulatory structure" to avoid negative public reaction.

“Don’t use the word protection... people are going to hear ‘protection’ and their heads are gonna go in a certain direction. Regulatory structure." — Steve Rinella [75:02]

8. Science, Stakeholders, and Social Change

[119:42]

Unlike trout or ducks, there’s no national “GAR Unlimited.” Dr. David relies on state funds, partnerships, and grassroots organizations for research.

“As far as a definite NGO, nobody... we apply for state grants... there’s Native Fish for Tomorrow, which is a non-profit group promoting these fish, but we’re all kind of cobbled together.” — Solomon David [119:42]
Collaboration with anglers and bowfishers is growing; research and outreach are pushing more sustainable management.
Freshwater aquariums like Tennessee Aquarium and Shedd Aquarium (some of Dr. David’s old lab gars!) are praised for showcasing native “rough fish” and educating the public.

9. Global Gar: Invasions and Food Fish

[88:23, 93:52]

US game fish—not rough fish—are the ones “wreaking havoc” as invasives abroad.
Alligator gar have appeared in Southeast Asia and India via aquarium releases but aren’t yet self-sustaining populations.
In Mexico and Cuba, gar are prized food fish; in Tabasco, Mexico, they’re farmed for restoration and local consumption.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“A gar comes into a bar. Bartender says, why the long face?” — Steve Rinella [04:29]
“Some fish... change at a faster rate than others. Walleye changed faster... Gars have a very slow evolutionary rate.” — Solomon David [23:27]
“Management is about limiting wanton waste and setting bag limits, not ending bowfishing.” — Solomon David [52:32]
“The ecological difference? Carp are everywhere. Mechanical removal doesn’t matter. Gars, fewer population, top-level predators—it absolutely can matter.” — Steve Rinella & Solomon David [65:53, 66:38]
“Buffalo can live for 100+ years... Some introduced in 1917 are still alive today.” — Solomon David [107:58, 108:46]
“I got a long line of bow fishermen. My father was a bow fisherman. That’s about the extent.” — Steve Rinella [63:23]
[On gar conservation PR]

“If I was in your shoes, I would be talking about putting a regulatory structure in place... like all the other stuff.” — Steve Rinella [75:02]

Timestamps of Important Segments

[02:47] — Introducing Solomon David & GAR Lab
[07:29] — Origins and definition of “rough fish”
[16:20] — European and Indigenous perspectives on gar and bowfin
[22:18] — Gar as “living fossils” & evolutionary context
[36:32] — Alligator gar longevity, growth, and habitat
[45:49] — Catch-and-release bowfishing and conservation issues
[51:30] — Minnesota’s new fish conservation law
[66:38] — Gar vs. carp population impacts from fishing
[76:32] — Advocacy for regulation (not “protection”) of native rough fish
[93:52] — Gar’s role as a food fish in Mexico/Cuba, aquaculture
[108:46] — 100-year-old buffalo and aging research
[119:42] — What’s funding rough fish research? The “no Gar Unlimited” problem
[125:55] — Favorite aquariums for native fish outreach

Additional Insights and Science Nerd-outs

Gar hybridization: Alligator and longnose gar can hybridize despite diverging over 100 million years ago, suggesting incredibly slow evolutionary change and possibly unique DNA repair mechanisms with biomedical value. [105:09]
Gar eggs are highly toxic to many taxa, but not to fish. [122:21]
Gar in folk technology: Scales used as arrowheads, skin used on plows. [125:20]
Ice fishing for gar: Under-ice gar confirmed in Minnesota; metabolism slows, but they’re active. [96:40]
Collaboration with anglers: Data collected from bow or rod-caught gar; community science is welcome. [80:58, 134:07]

Conclusion & Further Engagement

This episode is a compelling, frequently hilarious, and thoroughly educational journey into the world of underappreciated fish. The passionate case is made for ditching outdated prejudices, managing native fishes with the same care as “game” species, and deepening ecological knowledge and respect. Dr. David encourages listeners to contribute gar sightings and stories to garlab.org—helping fill knowledge gaps and supporting conservation.

How to Connect or Learn More

GAR Lab: garlab.org | Social Media: @TheGARLab
Native Fish for Tomorrow: Grassroots advocacy for native fish conservation

For the Curious

Want to try gar cuisine? Heads up: clean promptly, ditch the eggs, and bring tin snips.
Have a gar story or specimen? Reach out to the GAR Lab!
Kids love gar: They’re a touch tank favorite and a great Angler Gateway species.