Transcript

James Campbell (0:00)

This is an iHeart podcast.

Steven Rinella (0:04)

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James Campbell (1:49)

Auto parts.

Steven Rinella (2:04)

This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless.

James Campbell (2:11)

We hunt the Meat Eater Podcast.

Steven Rinella (2:13)

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Summary

The MeatEater Podcast

Ep. 796: Heart of the Jaguar

Release Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: James Campbell, author and conservation advocate

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the complex world of jaguar conservation, the fascinating natural and cultural history of these legendary cats, and how their fate intertwines with broader themes of wildlife management, politics, and history. Steven Rinella is joined by acclaimed author James Campbell to discuss Campbell's latest book, Heart of the Jaguar, and to share first-hand stories from jungles—both literal and metaphorical—across the Americas and the Pacific. The conversation weaves personal adventure, ecological science, indigenous worldviews, and the thorny realities of wildlife policy, all with the candid, sometimes irreverent tone that defines The MeatEater Podcast.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ghost Mountain Boys & Papua New Guinea

[04:36–22:09]

James Campbell’s Previous Work
Rinella praises Campbell’s book The Ghost Mountain Boys for its portrayal of the harrowing WWII campaign in Papua New Guinea, highlighting the underestimated toll of tropical diseases and personal stories of suffering and love.
- “Most your casualties are tropical diseases.” — Steven Rinella [06:42]
- Campbell tells how newly found wartime love letters led to a rewrite of his book:
  - “These are too beautiful. I have to completely rewrite the book and write in this character and write in his love letters. Cause they're just so heart wrenching.” — James Campbell [08:04]
Personal Connections & Historical Legacy
- Both men reflect on how WWII veterans only later began sharing the darker, grittier realities of combat.
- The impact of Campbell’s interviews on surviving veterans, some of whom found catharsis in sharing stories after decades of silence.
Recent Return to New Guinea
- Campbell discusses his ongoing relationship with Papua New Guinea's communities and efforts to bring medicine and recognition to the historic Ghost Mountain Trail.
- Idea of making the “Kappa Kappa Trail” a national historic route, akin to Australia’s Kokoda Trail.

2. Jaguar Natural History and Conservation Status

[24:22–48:21]

Population Numbers & Range
- Estimates of jaguar population range from 63,000 to 173,000—with most in the Amazon and Pantanal.
  - “About 80% of those Jaguars, let's say 100,000, are in the Amazon or the Pantanal of Brazil. Outside that... they’re considered endangered or critically.” — James Campbell [24:31]
- Historic range extended as far north as Colorado, California, and even potentially Alabama and Louisiana up to ~1900.
Jaguars as Ecological Generalists
- Jaguars adapt to multiple environments, from parched Chaco to snow in Arizona, thriving in surprisingly diverse habitats.
- “They didn’t evolve as like a warm weather tropical species. No—they’re complete generalists. Just like a mountain lion.” — James Campbell [32:02]
First Encounters and Awe
- Campbell’s first wild jaguar sighting in Brazil’s Pantanal is described with reverence:
  - “He just said jaguar, and all he had to do was whisper it. And, man, my whole body was tingling.” — James Campbell [35:58]
- Rinella’s own near-miss with a jaguar in Guyana underscores these cats’ elusiveness.

3. Jaguar Conservation: Corridors & Challenges

[48:21–68:08]

Cultural Significance
- In Mesoamerican civilizations, jaguars were worshipped as cosmic figures and spiritual totems.
  - “They believed the jaguar escorted the sun from day to night and back to day.” — James Campbell [47:24]
- Reverence didn’t preclude hunting for pelts and teeth.
Corridor Concept
- The visionary “Jaguar Corridor” seeks to preserve genetic flow and habitat connectivity along a 5,000-mile swath from Argentina to Arizona.
  - “Because jaguars are the only wide-ranging predators without a subspecies—that’s to preserve the DNA...as a single ecological unit, as one species.” — James Campbell [65:58]
- The Darien Gap (Panama/Colombia) emerges as a key pinch point, now complicated by human migration and violence.
Jaguar’s Return to U.S.
- A few male jaguars, such as Cochise, have been documented in southern Arizona, their source population only ~125 miles south in Mexico.
- Politics and management in Arizona are contentious—restoration efforts meet resistance over land use, “core habitat” designations, and anxieties about predation and land rights.

4. Wildlife Politics & Controversies

[68:08–103:55]

Reintroduction vs. Natural Return
- Discussion of possible reintroduction in Arizona/New Mexico, modeled after wolf restoration in Colorado; met with strong opposition from ranchers, hunters, and state officials.
- Key Insight: Jaguars are likely to shift—not double—predation from mountain lions rather than increase overall pressure on deer and elk.
  - “I think the mountain lions would pay the price.” — Steven Rinella [75:58]
Historic and Recent Hunting Pressure
- The “Tigriadas” fashion craze (1960s–70s) led to mass slaughters—over 180,000 jaguars in Brazil alone between 1962–1975—until CITES cracked down on trade.
The Macho B Incident
- Detailed retelling of the Macho B saga, a controversial death of an old male jaguar collared (and subsequently euthanized) in Arizona under ethically and procedurally murky circumstances.
  - “Jack Childs said it put jaguar biology in Arizona back into the Stone Age.” — James Campbell [101:21]
- The fallout continues to affect agency openness to jaguar research and conservation in the region.

5. The Life and Work of Alan Rabinowitz

[49:36–64:46, 85:26+]

A Pioneering Biologist
- Alan Rabinowitz, Campbell’s friend and the primary subject of Heart of the Jaguar, was a fearless cat biologist and foundational figure in corridor conservation (and an adventurer nicknamed the “Indiana Jones of wildlife ecology”).
- Rabinowitz insisted on the importance of field notes and direct action in troubled regions, regardless of politics.
  - “The pen is the weapon against oblivion.” — (as quoted from George Schaller via Rabinowitz) [87:20]
- His legacy endures through organizations like Panthera and the ongoing corridor project.

6. Ecology and Behavior of Jaguars

[68:08–79:51]

Solitary & Widespread
- Males can range up to hundreds of miles; females exhibit “range fidelity.” Jaguars live at low densities and are highly generalist predators—eating everything from deer and peccaries to frogs and turtles.
Physical Power and Presence
- Largest individuals can reach 300 pounds (especially in Pantanal).
- They’re renowned for their strength, swimming ability, and ability to break turtle shells with their jaws.
- The awe of physically encountering a living, breathing jaguar—"Laid a hand on one. ...just solid muscle." — James Campbell [106:22]
Melanism and Myths
- Black (“melanistic”) jaguars are real but extremely localized (cihado in Brazil); persistent myths about black panthers in North America are debunked.
Camera Trap Revolution
- Modern conservation uses distinctive spot “rosettes” to individually identify and track jaguars—trail cam data informing both science and policy debates.

7. Hope – and Worry – for Jaguars’ Future

[81:58–85:26]

Conservation Status
- Biologists are cautiously optimistic, citing increased habitat protection, international collaboration, and public support.
  - “Hope can be hard to come by. But...they have hope that jaguars will continue to persist, if not thrive.” — James Campbell [82:14]
- However, Amazonian agriculture (e.g., Chinese demand for soybeans), deforestation, and fragmentation remain immense threats.
- “Jaguars cannot live, you know, in a bean field.” — James Campbell [84:29]
Intersection of Conservation and Politics
- Wildlife management and conservation are inherently political:
  - “What's not political?...There’s no world in which you can talk about wildlife and have it not intersect with politics.” — Steven Rinella [84:29]

Notable Quotes & Moments

“If I owned New Guinea and I owned hell, I would live in hell and rent out New Guinea.” — Bob Hartman, WWII veteran, as shared by James Campbell [13:48]
“They absolutely worshiped [the jaguar]...part of their religion, part of their art, part of their iconography.” — James Campbell on Mesoamerican cultures [47:24]
“You look at the character’s transition. His last letter home is like, I try not to let it happen. But I have the blues. That’s why I haven’t been writing.” — Steven Rinella, on Simon Warmanhoven [09:20]
“They are so magnificent...their heads are like that. And they live in trees, they swim rivers with cayman in their mouths for a mile. They’re like the most athletic beast there is.” — James Campbell [77:42]
“I feel this is just my ballpark...I don’t think you’d see, because this is all mountain lion country...I think you’d probably see it shift.” — Steven Rinella on potential jaguar reintroduction [75:35]

Timestamps for Important Segments

04:36 – Campbell’s WWII book, disease in Pacific campaigns
14:13 – The distinction: Papua New Guinea vs New Guinea
24:22 – How many jaguars exist? Population data
29:22 – The jaguar corridor: concept and implementation
32:02 – Jaguar ecological flexibility/generalist behavior
35:58 – Campbell’s first wild jaguar sighting (“Onsa”)
39:59 – The “Tigriadas” pelt craze and impact
46:58 – Black jaguars, myths, and Mesoamerican iconography
65:58 – “One species” genetics and corridor rationale
69:33 – Source populations for Arizona jaguars
72:42 – Rewilding controversy, politics in Arizona/New Mexico
91:52 – The Macho B incident: capture, scandal, and consequences
85:26 – Alan Rabinowitz’s philosophy and legacy
82:14 – Predictions and hope for jaguar populations

Tone & Language

Conversational, candid, and steeped in personal anecdote.
Frequent irreverence and humor, especially as Rinella ribs both his guest and his crew.
Passionate advocacy for nature blended with honest appraisal of the messy intersections with history, economics, and management.
Quotes and stories are presented with emotional depth—veterans’ trauma, authorial struggle, and conservationists’ battles all feel immediate and real.

Closing Reflections

Campbell, now completing Heart of the Jaguar, reflects on his journey—balancing reporting with passion, historical curiosity, and the complications of writing about another’s legacy, namely Alan Rabinowitz.
Rinella and Campbell both grapple with the ongoing tension between storytelling and advocacy, recognizing that tough stories (like Macho B) can’t be ignored if the truth and lessons are to be honored.
The episode wraps with mutual appreciation and a hint at the next great conservation story—perhaps Alaska’s collapsing salmon runs—which may one day fill another of Campbell’s books.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This summary brings you on a global and historical journey—from WWII jungles to the rivers of the Pantanal, from Mayan temples to the wildlife corridors of Arizona. It blends adventure, science, controversy, and reverence for wildness in both animals and people. You’ll gain a vivid view of the jaguar’s world—past, present, and possible future—while understanding how conservation is as much about people, politics, and persistence as it is about saving a great spotted cat.

wavePod

Ep. 796: Heart of the Jaguar

Transcript

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast

Ep. 796: Heart of the Jaguar

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ghost Mountain Boys & Papua New Guinea

2. Jaguar Natural History and Conservation Status

3. Jaguar Conservation: Corridors & Challenges

4. Wildlife Politics & Controversies

5. The Life and Work of Alan Rabinowitz

6. Ecology and Behavior of Jaguars

7. Hope – and Worry – for Jaguars’ Future

Notable Quotes & Moments

Timestamps for Important Segments

Tone & Language

Closing Reflections

Further Reading & Next Steps

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode