Ep. 809: The 209 - A Backyard Hunt For An Iowa Giant

Summary

Podcast Summary: The MeatEater Podcast

Episode 809: The 209 – A Backyard Hunt For An Iowa Giant

Date: December 22, 2025
Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Rob Sand (Iowa State Auditor, gubernatorial candidate), Brooklyn Stevens (406 Boneworks)

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Overview

This episode brings together hunting, politics, and conservation with Steven Rinella hosting Rob Sand, an Iowa state official with deep bowhunting credentials and a current gubernatorial candidate. The core of the discussion centers around Rob’s pursuit of an enormous urban buck—the “209”—in Des Moines, Iowa, but branches widely into Iowa politics, ethics, outdoor culture, urban deer management, and the intersection between political life and authentic outdoorsmanship. Brooklyn Stevens returns for a check-in segment spotlighting her growing skull and taxidermy business.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Guest Introductions and Profiles

• Rob Sand’s Public Persona
  • Dubbed in national press as “the gun-toting Christian who could help Democrats win over Trump voters.”
  • His affinity for hunting and rural Iowa roots both shape and complicate his appeal across the political spectrum.
  • Running for Iowa governor while serving as state auditor. (06:42)
• Brooklyn Stevens – 406 Boneworks
  • Updates from her small business doing skull cleaning, tanning, and branching into taxidermy.
  • Insights into the business realities of a hunting-related entrepreneurship. (07:00–15:29)

2. Spotlight: 406 Boneworks (07:00–15:29)

• Harvest Trends & Small Business
  • Extremely warm Montana fall led to lower hunting harvests and less business:
    • “This year, I don’t even know if I’ll get close to 200 [skulls]” – Brooklyn (07:54)
  • Discussion of expanding services: beetle cleaning for small skulls, tanning, starting shoulder mounts.
• Business Realities and Customer Preferences
  • On the best way to bring in a skull: “Killed it that morning, dropped it off…not skinned. Just leave it to me.” (13:36)
  • Best customer communication: “Just bring it to me, I’ll do it. That’s smart business.” – Rob (14:20)
  • Contact details and shout-outs for 406 Boneworks in Bozeman.

3. Rob Sand – Roots, Early Work Life, Path to Politics (16:02–24:46)

• Humble Beginnings
  • First job: “Chicken catching”—more precisely, capon catching—at age 14 in Decorah, Iowa. (16:16)
  • Other jobs: McDonald’s, a local Internet provider.
• From Law to Public Service
  • Seven years as Iowa’s chief public corruption prosecutor.
  • “I prosecuted most of the public corruption in Iowa in that time frame.” (20:50)
  • Uncovered the largest lottery rigging scheme in US history—a wild tale featuring a Bigfoot-hunting judge in Texas. (21:14–26:36)

4. The Lottery Scandal & Bigfoot Hunters (21:14–30:31)

• Summary of the Scheme
  • Mastermind Eddie Tipton wrote code in the random number generator for multi-state lotteries, timing predictability on certain days.
  • Networked with his brother (a judge and Bigfoot hunter), who used the “Bigfoot hunting network” to help redeem winning tickets.
  • “You have to have a high degree of trust in each other … you are looked at by the outside world, as I’m sure, you’re laughed at.” – Rob (24:33)
• Resolution
  • Several states and agencies collaborated; Tipton received jail time, not nearly as much as expected for the scale of the crime.

5. State Auditor and the Politics of Oversight (35:30–40:51)

• Role & Achievements
  • Watchdog for state government spending; significant corruption uncovered.
  • After re-election, legislature passed a law “so state agencies can hide evidence of misspent tax dollars from our office.” (38:15)
  • “It’s all BS… they were like, ‘Perfect, let’s pass this sucker.’” – Rob (39:45)
  • Sincere personal connection to public service: “Rooted in my faith. … Jesus flipping over the tables of the money changers in the temple.” (39:09–40:51)
• The Shift to Gubernatorial Run
  • Motivation: restore transparency; give the auditor’s office real power again.

6. The Iowa Urban Deer Hunt: Chasing the 209 (41:02–68:13)

Overview of Program (41:07–43:44)

• Urban Whitetail Management
  • Annual requalification for bowhunters; mandatory proficiency test.
  • Urban buck tag is earned by first harvesting three antlerless deer (Earn-a-buck system on steroids).
• Securing Access
  • Permission required from individual landowners or parks—most parcels are under an acre.
  • The city requires signed documents and property inspections for private land hunts.
• Scouting & Strategy
  • Park-hopping, door knocking, scouting with OnX and trail cameras.
  • “It’s just more complicated when each postage stamp is another landowner.” – Rob (47:23)

The Hunt (49:36–68:13)

• Scouting & Encounters
  • Multiple weeks of evening door knocking and bike scouting; tracking buck through trail cams.
  • First two weekends: two sightings at low light, both with opportunities lost due to caution (potential lookalike “buddy” buck).
• The Kill
  • Cold front arrives; Sand juggles gubernatorial campaign and hunting, maximizing time in the stand.
  • “This buck—this is a 209 inch buck—he’s moving in 85 degree heat. … I’m out there just sweating, sitting in my stand.” (57:56)
  • Finally, in a downpour, Sand slips from his stand, swings on his saddle, regains position, and makes the shot.
  • Dragging the deer:
    • “I can back my pickup up, lower the tailgate, and without having to field dress the deer in the rain out in this guy’s yard, just drag him in.” – Rob (63:05)
• Family Connection
  • Shared victory with his father—the person who got him into hunting. “Pretty cool to take that…with my dad.” (63:14)

The Trophy Debate

• Taxidermy Dilemma
  • Rob wants a lacquered-look shine to replicate how the rack appeared wet in the rain.
  • “Steve thinks that’s a dumb idea. You can’t paint the antlers.” (65:51)
  • Brooklyn suggests a spray bottle for a “rainy day effect.” (67:38)

Politics and Public Reaction

• Does shooting the buck help or hurt in politics?
  • “Is getting the big buck net positive or net negative?” – Steve (69:00)
  • “Some people … will be like, ‘He don’t deserve that big buck. I’m not voting for him.” – Steve (69:17)
  • Rob responds: “To me, I love hunting. I’m going to be who I am. And if some people don’t like it, that’s okay.” (69:55)

7. Politics, Hunting, and Breaking the Two-Party Mold (70:26–81:46)

• Authenticity, Independence, and Political Boxes
  • “I love surprising people when it comes to partisanship… Those values, those traditions, those don’t belong to a political party.” – Rob (71:22)
  • Critique of closed primaries: “That’s hogwash. … In America, where we celebrate Independence Day, we’re going to tell independent voters that they are less equal?” (72:10)
  • Dislike for “boxifying” complex worldviews to fit parties.
• Civility and Public Service
  • Singing “America the Beautiful” at town halls to break down walls and foster togetherness.
  • “Any old mule can kick a barn down. It takes a carpenter to build one.” – Rob (112:25)

8. Conservation and Iowa Environmental Issues (88:48–93:35)

• Water Quality
  • Iowa’s nitrate/runoff pollution, beach closures—“Record beach closures this summer. … Farmers are signing up for conservation programs and getting turned away because politicians won’t put in the funding.” (89:23–89:51)
• Public Land and Access
  • Iowa ranks 49th in public land.
  • “You always get a little bit extra credit if you’re out there on public land to fill that tag, but we just don’t have that much by comparison.” (92:05)
  • On corner crossing: “That’s like such a no-brainer to me. …I can’t imagine the attitude of someone who says, ‘No, I don’t want you to do that.’” (93:38)

9. Bowhunting Technicalities (106:25–112:07)

• Urban Stand Strategies
• Arrow/Broadhead Preferences
  • “I used to shoot fixed blade… I switched to mechanicals after a study showed higher recovery rates… wasn’t satisfied, so now I shoot Grim Reapers, four-blade mechanicals.” – Rob (109:42)
• Gear Debates in Archery
  • Steve: “I like to argue about this with Tony Peterson.”
  • “You know, those guys that do that…‘Well, it works for me.’ … And it just shuts everything down.” – Steve (111:23–111:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rob on his hunting/faith/politics mix:

  “Those values, those traditions, those don’t belong to a political party.” (71:22)

• On the two-party system:

  “We have two private clubs that run the United States of America. … It is absolutely wrong.” – Rob (72:03)

• On trophy decisions:

  “That mount is, if you can have it, be that moment and bring that moment back, that’s unique…” – Rob (66:56)

• On public service:

  “Show me people who want to do it right … not just be a Democrat or Republican, but to try to do the right thing.” – Rob (80:03)

• Rob on hunting and authenticity:

  “I’m not going to not be who I am. … If some people don’t like it, that’s okay. But other people do.” (69:55)

• Steve on campaign risks:

  “They're gonna be like, his buck wasn’t that big. It measured 207. Not net!” (86:32)

• On Iowa environmental challenges:

  “Farmers are signing up for conservation programs and getting turned away because politicians won’t put in the funding.” (89:51)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:42 – Introducing Rob Sand’s media profile, candidacy, and background.
• 07:00–15:29 – Brooklyn Stevens and the 406 Boneworks small business update.
• 16:02–24:46 – Rob’s childhood, early jobs, and path to state service.
• 21:14–26:36 – The multi-state lottery fraud/Bigfoot scandal.
• 35:30–40:51 – State Auditor work, political reforms, and motivation for running.
• 41:02–68:13 – Iowa’s urban hunt, chasing the 209 buck, and the full hunt story.
• 70:26–81:46 – Political authenticity, party system critique, and town hall traditions.
• 88:48–93:35 – Conservation and Iowa public land/water issues.
• 106:25–112:07 – Bowhunting technical talk (broadheads, gear debates).

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Final Thoughts

This episode is an engaging look at how modern hunting overlaps with civic life, personal values, and grassroots conservation. Rob Sand emerges as a hunter-politician invested in integrity—whether running down a big Iowa buck or rooting out waste in government. Meanwhile, Brooklyn Stevens shines a light on the realities and innovation in small hunting businesses. For fans of bowhunting, state politics, and unvarnished discussion of conservation issues, “The 209” offers a rare, relatable intersection of passion, policy, and the pursuit of something big.

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Transcript

[Brooklyn Stevens]

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[Steve]

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[Rob Sand]

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[Steve]

Auto parts. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless.

[Rob Sand]

We hunt the Meat Eater Podcast.

[Steve]

You can't predict anything brought to you by first light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds no compromise gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at first light.com that's F I R S T L-I T E.com all right everybody. Joined today by someone that Crin and I have been texting back and forth about having on for for. It might be six years. Crazy Crin was like five because I can't do math.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

I think it's six. December 19th, that article.

[Steve]

No, no, I meant I was making a joke about. It's so long. You were five years old.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Oh, yes. Yes, I was.

[Steve]

Since she was a little gal, little girl, we've been texting back and forth about having on Rob sand from Iowa. And what, what brought this up? You people text you articles all the time. And I, I, I didn't know it was that many years ago. We get an article years ago, headline, new New York Times article. Someone sends us this article. The headline, the bow hunting influencer of Iowa Democrats. Rob did not write these headlines. You did not. He didn't write these articles. A line from. So then the. I studied journalism a little teeny bit. What do you call the by not by the headline. And then you got the like, lead lead, right?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Or is it like the sub.

[Steve]

There's the nut graph there somewhere.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Is it the lead?

[Steve]

The lead. Rob sand figured out how to win statewide office as a Democrat in Iowa. And now the presidential contenders are seeking his counsel. Yep, it goes on. Mr. Sans fondness for hunting. See, this is really a story about hunting. Mr. Sands fondness for hunting cultivated during his childhood years in rural Iowa, but also conveniently appealing to the state's more conservative constituents. Helps explain why he was the only non incumbent Democrat to win statewide here in 2018. All thanks to hunting. Then the Telegraph. Here's another headline Rob didn't write. He's going to blush. Oh, the gun toting Christian who could help Democrats win over Trump voters. Rising star of party is spooking Republicans in ruby red state of Iowa. A sentence from that article goes, Rob Sand. Oh yeah, is a gun toting Christian from rural Iowa who goes deer hunting. Of all things. I'm adding, I'm editor. I'm adding that of all things, who goes deer hunting deer drives a white Ford F150 pickup and open speeches by quoting the Bible. Another article, wall Street Journal, meet the Democrat who Republicans fear in red state America. Here's a, here's a sentence from the article. Rob sand could almost pass for a Republican. He frequently quotes the Bible, owns two Sig sour handguns, goes deer hunting each fall and asks audiences to sing a few verses of America the Beautiful at the start of each campaign event. So these articles, they, they build and build and build and then we're like, man, we gotta have this guy on and talk to him. But mostly we're gonna talk about a big old buck he killed.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. That'll be more fun. It's the main thing my auditing had. And all these sentences are like, not quite true. Not quite true. I now drive a silver F150.

[Steve]

Oh, so little minor differences.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. The white one hit like 170. And the cam phasers were going out, and with all the body damage that was on it, it made more sense to buy a new one. Got it.

[Steve]

But there's a quote. The only thing worse than being written about. It's not being written about.

[Rob Sand]

That's my. In my business. That's probably true. Yeah.

[Steve]

You could switch it. You know, you can switch it. Oh, also, I forgot to mention, he's. He's running for governor in Iowa. There's that. He's running for governor in Iowa. So we're gonna talk about that. But first we have to have our entrepreneur spotlight back to Brooklyn Stevens, Right?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

Brooklyn Stevens. This is your third time you've been on the show.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Believe so.

[Steve]

Okay. Because she's trying to build her business.

[Rob Sand]

I love it.

[Steve]

406 Boneworks. So we have her on now and then to check in with her.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

Harvest was down in Montana this year because it was an exceptionally warm fall. It was not much snow.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Nope.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hot.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Very hot. I.

[Steve]

And she saw it reflected in how many skulls came into 406boneworks.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

That's your leading theory. Tell us about that.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

I. Yeah, I mean, I. Last year, I probably did close to 250 schools from January to end of December. And that was not counting that it would have been this January, like the. The trickle in of that season schools, which was probably another 20 or so.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

Got it.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

This year, I don't even know if I'll get close to 200.

[Steve]

This cannot stand.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep. And last.

[Steve]

People need to flood you. They need to flood 406 bone works with skulls. Yeah, I. I don't care if you got to ship it from another country.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep. Yeah. I. We bought specifically four to hold all of my heads. A shipping container.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, wow.

[Steve]

Oh, you did? Yeah. You own your own shipping container now.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah, it's like a smaller one, but it's still a shipping container.

[Steve]

So you've got capital expenditures into your business.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

That's deductible. Definitely.

[Steve]

And you're thinking about. So traditionally the school. You've done a bunch of schools for me now. You must probably done a half dozen or more.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

All turned out beautifully. Zero complaints.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Thank you.

[Steve]

Beautiful work. But you're branching into your branch. You're going to branch into the beetle Stuff and some other hide. Hide stuff. So tell, tell folks about what you're. Tell folks about your sort of. I don't know what you call it in business lingo, your verticals. No, you know, I'm getting that.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah. So the Beatles I got specifically for like the smaller schools because it's hard to like boil them. I would just put them in a crock pot and slow cook them. But oh, oh, it get. I just was not a fan and so I just got the beetles and then the way I whiten things now I can still. It degreases at the same time so I can still do it with the smaller skulls and it just makes it easier.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

That and I'll sell the smaller skulls too. Like if I get. My buddies are big trappers and so if you. If they don't want their skulls, like they'll just give them to me to feed them and I'll just sell them and. And I'll pay them for the school or whatever they want.

[Rob Sand]

Y.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

And then yeah, I did just get in to tanning. I was dabbling in it before but I just opened for public so I can do really anything.

[Steve]

So someone got say let's say someone was out and they got a coyote and they wanted to have it done as a hanging decoration or they wanted to save it up to get something made out of it. They could bring you. You would skin it, flesh it, stretch it, get it to the tannery, all that kind of stuff.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

And return to them a finished product. Yep. Excellent. Excellent.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah. And then I just now starting to get into shoulder mounts. I did my first one last. Last summer. Still a lot of things I need to work on, but turned out great for.

[Steve]

Oh it did.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah, I. I think so. And I got a lot of good feedback on it.

[Steve]

Next time you come in, you should bring in a shoulder mount.

[Rob Sand]

That's pretty exciting.

[Steve]

So you're. You're on the path like John Hayes better watch out.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah, I. I've talked to him quite a bit and he's given.

[Steve]

You better watch his ass. He's gonna start having to steer you wrong. He's gonna start giving you.

[Rob Sand]

He.

[Steve]

Hayes is gonna start giving you bad advice.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Sand]

He's gonna.

[Steve]

He sees you coming in the rear view mirror and he's gonna start giving you bad advice.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Right? Yep.

[Steve]

He might not even be around anymore. I spoke to him this morning. He was driving 30 miles an hour. Well, he was driving 30 miles an hour in a white out.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Sure.

[Steve]

Behind a truck. Oh, we talked about what I would say if he doesn't make it. I was gonna say it with John. It was all about the animals. That's all I was gonna say at his memorial service now it'd be like, you know, the dead ones.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah.

[Steve]

It was all about the.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Sounds fair.

[Rob Sand]

Just remember the pu. The pupil should never outshine the master. That's what they say.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

He'll stay happy as long as you keep telling him. He. I'm learning so much from you. That's.

[Steve]

Yeah, do that. Like if he tells you a hot tip, don't be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Sand]

Don't tell. Don't tell him. Oh, I already knew that. Anything he says. Oh, thank you.

[Steve]

The pupil should never outshine the mask.

[Rob Sand]

Or if you're a terrible bullshitter, just at least interesting, you know, keep it in mind. Yeah.

[Steve]

Never call him and give him a tip. Cuz then. You know what I'm saying, Then he might sabotage, you know what I mean? Because he's. He's got to watch out.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Sure.

[Steve]

He's the old guard. You're the new guard, right?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

All right, well, so tell people how to get a hold of you. The bringing in the skulls.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

I have a flyer at the meater flagship store in downtown Bozeman. My phone number. Information's all on that. Or my Instagram is just 406boneworks. Message me on there. My Gmail is on there. Or if you have my number, you can always just shoot me a text, whatever. That's the best way. I don't look at my email very much, but you can get me. Get a hold of me there.

[Steve]

If someone was down on Main street because you work at the. You work at the mediator store on Main Street.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

Someone could just drop one off there, huh?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Or is that not legal?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah. I have a. With Alec.

[Steve]

He knows what he knows what's up.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep. Okay. Yeah.

[Steve]

Now tell me the honest answer like it does. It's not. The honest answer isn't going to bother me. This is the last question. Would you rather be home cleaning skulls or rather be working at the store? Just tell me this flat out honest answer.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Be home cleaning them.

[Steve]

Cleaning skulls.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

Okay. You're inspired. You're inspired.

[Rob Sand]

It's awesome.

[Steve]

All right, well, good luck.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Thank you.

[Steve]

406 Boneworks. Give the phone number.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

It's gonna be 406. 404-0848.

[Steve]

I got a second question. Or a second last question. Do you prefer people to bring you skulls that are rotten and full of maggots or fresh and frozen?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Neither oh, really?

[Steve]

Tell us. Okay. End with this. End with this. The perfect customer brings a skull in. What form?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Killed it that morning, dropped it off that day. Not skinned. Just leave it to me.

[Steve]

Not skinned.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep. I don't. It's something about the skin, I think, sucking in all that moisture. And so I think if you just leave it on there and then I can do it. I'll get it done either the same day or the day after.

[Rob Sand]

Okay.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

And I. I don't know what it is, but it's just like the freshness. It really does make skulls come out whiter and not really.

[Steve]

So they're not doing you a favor when they skin it?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

I mean, sort of. I'm gonna. I. Now I charge to skin them, but that's why. That's what I really like to just.

[Steve]

Tell you about that.

[Rob Sand]

But she's also inviting her customers to do less work.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Right.

[Rob Sand]

Just bring it to me. I'll do it. That's smart business.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Gosh.

[Steve]

406 Bone Works. Give the phone number again.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

406. 404-0848.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Brooke.

[Steve]

Brooklyn.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

Which one do you like the most? I know on your contact it says Brooke, but I know he has Brooklyn. Am I doing. Am I wrong when I say Brooklyn?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

No, it does not matter.

[Rob Sand]

Okay.

[Steve]

So you can pick. Customers pick Brooke, they can pick Brooklyn Stevens. 406 boneworks. Done a bunch of work for everybody around here. You're doing Spencer's biggest buck he ever got.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Rob Sand]

Nice.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Wow. Yeah. He's probably the biggest buck I've Euroed so far.

[Rob Sand]

Really?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Steve]

He's a picky man, too.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Is he?

[Steve]

If he's happy, you'll know. You did a good job.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

He's picky. Yeah.

[Steve]

I've done you, little guy. Fussy little fella. Likes everything kind of how he likes it. You've been in his house. Likes everything how he likes. If you.

[Rob Sand]

If you move something, he knows.

[Steve]

Oh, yeah. He likes it just how he likes.

[Rob Sand]

It's hard to live that way. Yeah.

[Steve]

All right, bro. You can take off. Go clean some skulls.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yep.

[Rob Sand]

All right.

[Steve]

Thanks, dude. Appreciate you coming by.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah, thank you, God. Gosh, I already broke those rules.

[Steve]

Which ones?

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Skin.

[Steve]

You skinned it and let it rot.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Still. Still In a box in the garage.

[Steve]

She skinned it and let it rot.

[Rob Sand]

I also like to call me anything, you know, it's like. You can call me anything. Just call me for your taxidermy needs.

[Steve]

That's. That's a good. Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

It's the only rule.

[Steve]

Okay, Rob sand, man. Let's let's start a little bit. Let's start a little bit about. We'll get. I want to talk about the buck. I want to talk about what exactly you do for a living, what you're fixing to do for a living.

[Rob Sand]

You bet.

[Steve]

But let's. Let's start out. Let's start out back home and when you were a wee lad.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Yeah. So one of. One of the articles I read about you made a lot. Gave a lot of ink to the fact that you were. That you worked in the poultry.

[Rob Sand]

I did.

[Steve]

As a. As a chicken catcher. I did.

[Rob Sand]

Well, technically, capons.

[Steve]

Capon catcher.

[Rob Sand]

So what's that? Castrated chickens.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

This is in northeast Iowa. I grew up in Decorah. And so there's factory on the east. East side of town. East side of town that we actually toured when I was in third grade.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

So you get to.

[Steve]

That's how you got a foot in the door.

[Rob Sand]

That's exactly right. They were like, you look sturdy. I remember. I remember the little old ladies splashing some of the giblet water on us as we were walking past. So that was very. That was thrilling. Definitely made me think I have a career ahead of me in capons. But, you know, I'm 14.

[Steve]

I'm not like.

[Rob Sand]

I.

[Steve]

If that was a trivia question, I don't know that I would have gotten it right.

[Rob Sand]

What a capon is. Yeah, it's unusual. But. But.

[Steve]

But how is.

[Rob Sand]

The.

[Steve]

The consumer's not buying a capon. This is. This is a production term.

[Rob Sand]

I can't tell you if they're marketed honestly as capons or not. My job was walk into the barn, pick up the capons, hand them to the guy on the truck, and that was. That was the end. And I was 14, so I was paying attention to. Yeah. Five bucks an hour cash. I don't know if I should say that.

[Steve]

No, they'll come for you.

[Rob Sand]

It was five bucks an hour, cash. It was good money. And you could do it when you were 14 and. Yeah, just huge barns. So they pull these huge trucks in. Turn off the lights. Like I said, cap cape ponds are castrated male chickens. So they're fattier. Okay. Bigger than usual. And you're just walking around. You grab them by the legs.

[Steve]

Both legs.

[Rob Sand]

Both is great because if you can get both, then they can't scratch you.

[Steve]

Can'T spur you or bite you.

[Rob Sand]

Exactly. Exactly. No matter what, their last line of defense is always to piss and all over you.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

So that's going to happen. Got it. That's what Phil does. Is that right? If you grab them by the ankles.

[Steve]

This is only line of defense.

[Rob Sand]

So we, you know, you grab my grab by the ankles, hopefully you get both. Uh, pick up another one. You know, maybe you get strong enough six months later that you can do three at a time or try to get four. If your technique's improving, give them to the guy in the truck. And you do that until all the trucks are full.

[Steve]

So is this one of those young kid jobs that a lot of young kids come in and a lot of them leave on day one. Oh, that was like, like throwing hay bales tends to be like.

[Rob Sand]

Funny that you mentioned that. My buddy Andy Rasmussen, one of my best friends, he, he came once, did not go back to collect his pay. And he's a hard, and he's a hard working dude. Yeah, he, he's. But this is just. This was not his. Not his bag.

[Steve]

Where I grew up, there's two jobs any kid could get and every kid got him.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

And it was. Any kid could walk in and start peeling logs.

[Rob Sand]

Yep. For log home, we don't have that. We don't have that in Iowa.

[Steve]

35 cents a foot. I don't know what it is. Now back to 35 cents a foot. Any kid could walk in and he'd be like, have at it.

[Rob Sand]

So you're peeling bark.

[Steve]

Yeah, peeling bark off.

[Rob Sand]

Okay.

[Steve]

You know, like a nice log home has that hand peeled, look.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Anybody could come in. There's no. There was just the application period. There was no, there was no interview.

[Rob Sand]

Are you swinging a hatchet?

[Steve]

No, it's a draw knife.

[Rob Sand]

Okay.

[Steve]

And it was just simply. Sure, go ahead.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, ready, go.

[Steve]

And most people peeled a couple feet of the log and left. Yeah, There you go.

[Rob Sand]

There you go.

[Steve]

And the arm was working at the greenhouse, filling flats with dirt that would.

[Rob Sand]

Probably be a little bit soil, but.

[Steve]

It was like anybody could get it, but not everybody wanted it.

[Rob Sand]

Detasseline. Corn was the other one for Iowa.

[Steve]

That's in that too.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Was your family agriculture?

[Rob Sand]

No. You could see corn and cows out my bedroom window. But my dad likes to say he was a farmer for six months and then when he was six months old, they moved off the farm. Got it. So.

[Steve]

Yeah, so you didn't. You, you were, you were egg ag adjacent, but not. I mean, family.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, that's right. Well, and everything, if you're in small town Iowa, you know, kind of everything's ag adjacent to a certain degr. No. But yeah, first job was catching chickens. Moved on from there to McDonald's for a couple years. And then the. The curveball would be, I think my next job after that was working for a local Internet service provider, strangely enough.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So you went to law school in Iowa.

[Rob Sand]

Went to law school at Iowa and then went to the attorney general's office after that. Seven years as the chief public corruption prosecutor in Iowa. Oh.

[Steve]

So I was gonna ask. Okay, so that's how you became aware of that there's all this.

[Rob Sand]

There is a state auditor. Yes. That's like.

[Steve]

There's like a lead that there's like, stuff to do in the government.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

So what was that work now?

[Rob Sand]

So I prosecuted most of the public corruption in Iowa in that time frame. So like many states, we had a film office tax credit, a filmmaking tax credit. Like some other states, we screwed it up and there was a lot of fraud. So I prosecuted those cases. Also uncovered the largest lottery rigging scheme in American history. That's a crazy story actually. Oh, that's a good one to talk about here.

[Steve]

Quick version of that.

[Rob Sand]

That's a great one to talk about here. There were Bigfoot hunters involved. Yes, yes. So you.

[Steve]

The fact that you think that excites me a little.

[Rob Sand]

Insulting. No, I'm excited by it.

[Steve]

I'm like, Spencer's not here anti Bigfoot.

[Rob Sand]

All right. I mean, I'm not anti his existence or anti looking for him.

[Steve]

We've had lookers on.

[Rob Sand]

Uhhuh.

[Steve]

We had to look around. Well, no, she wasn't. She covered the lookers.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yes.

[Steve]

Oh, okay. Covered.

[Rob Sand]

She was a reporter. She covered the lookers. Okay. All right.

[Steve]

And then she kind of was a little bit. She didn't want to condemn them.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Because that's her sources.

[Rob Sand]

They're. They're. They're. They're. They're people searching for truth in the.

[Steve]

World, you know, that would have been the kind of thing she would have said on.

[Rob Sand]

I'm not here to judge them. I'm just here to tell you some of these jackpots were claimed. The guy who was the mastermind of it, it was his job to write the computer program that's gonna pick winning numbers. He put a little bit extra in there. And so his brother, who was a justice of peace down in Texas. His brother was big.

[Steve]

He got it back way out.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

State lottery.

[Rob Sand]

So interesting. He actually worked for the multi state lottery association.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

So they ran the show for different games across 38 different states and Canadian provinces. Got it.

[Steve]

And this is not the kind where the ball blows up in the.

[Rob Sand]

It is not okay.

[Steve]

It's a computer generated winner.

[Rob Sand]

It's funny because they moved into the computer generated systems after the triple six fix in Pennsylvania. Not familiar. The triple six fix was a rigged lottery jackpot with the balls.

[Steve]

Right.

[Rob Sand]

But they injected dye into the sixes, and so the sixes drop down, which, technically speaking, this is one of those weird things about humans.

[Steve]

The ping pong ball.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And this is one of those weird things, technically speaking, it's the triple six equal.

[Steve]

Yeah, we should have a whole different podcast about this.

[Rob Sand]

They may have done Trails season two. Oh, that's. I was gonna say, like, you want to talk. We got blood trails. But financial crime, if you involve the Bigfoot.

[Steve]

That's your angle.

[Rob Sand]

The Bigfoot Hunter. Right.

[Steve]

The triple six fix.

[Rob Sand]

Triple six fix in Pennsylvania.

[Coca Cola Announcer]

Who?

[Rob Sand]

Okay.

[Steve]

I don't want to spend too much time on the triple six. Sure.

[Rob Sand]

Okay. Sure.

[Steve]

Okay. So go on.

[Rob Sand]

Well, so somebody. Somebody who forgot what human nature was, was like, well, if we do this with computers, then no one will ever rig it. And of course, then Eddie Tipton came along, who's the mastermind at the center of this one, and he rigged a computer program so he. He would know he would be able to go.

[Steve]

Rigged what was written.

[Rob Sand]

He. He wrote the program, but then put a little extra in there.

[Odoo/JBL Announcer]

What?

[Rob Sand]

So on one of three dates of the year, if that date fell on a Wednesday or a Saturday, and if the draw was happening after 8pm rather than going to the actual random number generator for the first seed, it would go to a seven variable algorithm that he knew. And so he could have people go out and buy 100, 200, 300 tickets, and he would know that he was hitting the jackpot in those 300. What? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Crazy. And his brother is a justice of the peace down in Texas and a Bigfoot hunter. And so he tapped into his Bigfoot hunting network to help claim some of the tickets, which I. I theorize, like.

[Steve]

Because he had, like, his associates.

[Rob Sand]

Yes.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Wow.

[Rob Sand]

And this has got to be. Don't. Don't. These folks have to have a high degree of trust in each other.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

Because you are looked at by the outside world, as I'm sure you're laughed at.

[Steve]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

And so this.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

You.

[Rob Sand]

You. You believe? I believe.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

We know. Yeah.

[Steve]

We deserve this money.

[Rob Sand]

That's right. That's right. And so he.

[Steve]

His brother, did the people that were the. The names. Did they even know their names are being used?

[Rob Sand]

You didn't. They did so what it was, was.

[Steve]

I don't know, because they're being told what number to play.

[Rob Sand]

They're being, they. I don't know that they were being told what number to play, but the brother of the mastermind would go to them and say, hey, I won the lottery, but my wife and I are on the outs. Or you know, something about like, I don't want my wife to know I'm gambling. Something like that. Will you claim the ticket? I'll let you keep 10%. Just do all of it cash today. Not the annuity thing. I'll give you 10% if you go claim it. And so they'd go claim it. And then 10 years went by. There was the $16 million jackpot in Iowa. Uh huh. Actually, folks, if you want to, if you got an hour and you want to watch a documentary, lottodoc.com you can watch the whole story there or. I wrote a book about it. I am. I didn't have anything to do with making it. I'd prefer you buy my book personally. Yeah, it's the winning ticket. But crazy story. So we got to interview this bigfoot hunter down in way east Texas, down in the bayous, ironically, last name con C o n N. Some of this stuff you just can't make up, right?

[Steve]

Really?

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, they were like, yeah, he's my bigfoot hunting buddy. The brother who's kind of at the, the, the, the, the thread that connected from the mastermind. Actually got interviewed about the very first jackpot one out in Colorado.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

By an FBI agent while he's in the hospital with two broken legs from falling out of a tree while bigfoot hunting. Wow. Yeah.

[Steve]

These guys are in deep.

[Rob Sand]

They're indeed. Crazy story.

[Steve]

Well, did this go to a jury?

[Rob Sand]

It did. When we only had. We only knew of the one Iowa ticket. So. Interesting wrinkle here. You know, you got your right to speedy trial, ladies and gentlemen, if you've been charged with the crime, you got your right to speedy trial. In Iowa, you can have a 90 day speedy trial rule. Normally federal rules is a year, but you can demand it in 90 days.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

And this was a case that had kind of been around for a long time. It got handed to me. We did a little, we pushed a little bit on the investigation, got some good stuff, and then suddenly realized, but we got to indict this guy. Once we found him out, we released the video of him purchasing the tickets and got some good tips, actually from a guy in Maine. But we, we not a bigfoot Hunter. Not a Bigfoot Hunter, no, but a guy that knew the mastermind was like, that's Eddie Tipton. Huh. So we had to indict him real quick. And then he demanded speedy trial under the Iowa rule for 90 days. So we had this sense at that point, we're like, okay, this guy works at the Multi State Lottery Association. It's his job to write the program that picks winning numbers. And here we have him buying a ticket. This thing's obviously rigged. We have no hard evidence. We don't have the computer. Right. It's all circumstantial case. And so of course we're thinking Multi State Lottery Association's running games in 38 states and provinces. There's got this can't be the only one. But he demands speedy trial. And so we go to trial. We have a jury trial. We pick the jury the day we start evidence. CBS this Morning covers this trial. Says they got some computer expert on. This guy's got a pretty, the defendant, he's got a pretty powerful argument for reasonable doubt because they don't have that hard evidence. We won anyway. And then we're waiting for sentencing. It's like a six week wait. You do this, there's a pre sentence investigation, so the Department of Corrections can make a recommendation to the judge. Got it. While we're waiting, I get a phone call from Texas and I recognize the area code. Is his area code. Just my phone rings in my cubicle. Answer the phone. Hey, is this Rob Sand? Yeah. Do you all know that Eddie Tipton's brother won the lottery? No. Yeah, maybe about 10 years ago, out west somewhere, maybe Colorado. I did not know that. Thank you. And so the investigation then, now we've got the tip that we kind of needed to go to other state lotteries, that we technically don't have any. You know, we can't tell them, give me this. But now we've got some information and we can really go to them and say, you probably need to give us this. And they've got a reason to do it. So investigation went on from there.

[Steve]

Did another state wind up nabbing him or did you guys get the. Who. Who got. Who gets to host him?

[Rob Sand]

It was, it was interesting. He served his time in Iowa. We had great cooperation and really important work from the Wisconsin Attorney General's office, David Moss up there and Joanne Joy. Credit to them, a prosecutor and a investigating agent. And then out in Colorado, Rob, I think his name was Rob shapiro, at the AG's office there, they agreed, they decided to do a prosecution. They didn't have much role in the investigation but Joanne and and David were really helpful. So this is probably, we think this is probably the biggest multi state plea agreement since the founding of federal law enforcement because we couldn't get the feds to take the case.

[Steve]

Is he in the who scow now?

[Rob Sand]

Who the what now?

[Steve]

Is he in jail, locked up?

[Rob Sand]

No, now he's out. He served like four and a half years.

[Steve]

That's it.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. In now he has to, he's, he's my understanding he's still got his sentence hanging over his head in Wisconsin.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

So if he doesn't make good on his restitution, which he better start doing, I think they can haul him in in Wisconsin and throw him back in. But he's down in Texas.

[Steve]

He's probably playing lottery. I mean to win the restitution money.

[Rob Sand]

He, he might know what numbers to pick.

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[Coca Cola Announcer]

Okay, only 10 more presents to Wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first.

[Rob Sand]

There.

[Coca Cola Announcer]

The last one. Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause. That refreshes.

[Steve]

Man, I don't want. I want to tell you about something. I don't want this take up too much time. But do you hear about these dudes in Texas that just did that? They won the lottery, but they won.

[Rob Sand]

It fair and square.

[Steve]

They. These mathematicians, they kind of. It's a global network.

[Rob Sand]

Was this the. The serial number thing? Like, they figured out a clue in the serial number?

[Steve]

No, no, no, no. They.

[Rob Sand]

They.

[Steve]

It's a global network of these mathematician guys. And they just watch sweepstakes, raffles, giveaways, lotteries. They watch them for vulnerabilities.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, interesting.

[Steve]

In Texas, they realized that you could. If you're a business, you can get your own lottery machine for tickets.

[Rob Sand]

I did see this.

[Steve]

So they just rent offices all over the state?

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

They don't open any businesses because it's not part of the thing. You just need an address. They rent offices over to state. They get their own lotto machines. They wait till the jackpot gets to a certain bit and where they know.

[Rob Sand]

Their expected value hits the. This is the time.

[Steve]

Friends, families, they're like. They're banking on. They. They have. It have to be that they can't be a split jackpot.

[Rob Sand]

Yep.

[Steve]

If it's a split jackpot, they break even. If they're the sole winner, they clear tens of millions of dollars.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. And so they would. They would wait till it hit that amount. There's actually.

[Steve]

And then they got 72 hours or something like that.

[Rob Sand]

There's another story that's similar out of Michigan. Matter of fact, Jerry and Marge go large. Oh, Jerry and Marge. Jerry was some Michigan guy who just had a real head for numbers. And he noticed some pattern and some game in Michigan and basically did the same thing. There's. There was. It started with a newspaper or. Sorry, a magazine article. And then it got turned into a movie. Oh, great. Movie.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

These in Michigan or not.

[Steve]

But in this, they had 72 hours. Kids, wives, everybody.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

They ran every number, possibly by.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And then had a storage system. They do the draw. They go into their little thing. They're like, here's a ticket.

[Rob Sand]

Right.

[Steve]

They're passing a lot, like. And I. And as of last I knew, everyone looked at it every which way, looking for why that's illegal.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

As far as I know, it's not.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So now that. Now the Texas legislature is like changing the rules to make it that you can't do that.

[Rob Sand]

And they're all mad, and they're trying to make it look like these people screwed up because they're a bunch of politics. Politicians who don't want to admit that they wrote stupid rules for a game. They'll let somebody do that. Yeah.

[Steve]

These guys, like, if we won fair and square. Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

They just outsmarted them. They're like, dude, you wrote these rules. We read the rules that you wrote. We played the game according to the rules. Don't be mad at me. Eddie did not Game, not the player. That's right. That's right. Eddie actually put a little extra code in there that made it. Made it predictable. So that's why he. That's the difference. That's why he went to prison. And these people got a bunch of money.

[Steve]

These people get to hang out.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

All right. One last thing, then we're gonna. I got an order in my head.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

What? So we. We talked about the. When you were doing that department of what's called. Again, like, you're not a prosecutor.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, I was. Yeah. So I was assistant attorney general, prosecutor, attorney general. Some. Some violent crime, but the focus was financial crime.

[Steve]

And then you're now the state auditor, currently.

[Rob Sand]

That's right. That's right.

[Steve]

That's an elected position.

[Rob Sand]

Elected in Iowa. Yeah. So it's a mix in different states. Easiest way to understand it is it's like, closest thing to taxpayers watchdog. So we audit tax spenders, not taxpayers.

[Steve]

Give me an example of a taxpayer. The.

[Rob Sand]

The state government. Highway department, dot, Department of education. If a county or a city or a school district hires us for their annual audit, we do their audit, and then we do special investigations under certain circumstances. Got it.

[Steve]

Is that a competitive field if you go to try to get elected?

[Rob Sand]

Well, sure. I mean, at the end of the day, anytime you got a race, Iowa, still the. At its heart, is a fairly competitive state. That doesn't mean that every race is competitive. But when you're looking statewide, you know, it can go either way.

[Steve]

So people will run against you. Reason I. For a period of time, my mother was the treasurer of her township.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, no way.

[Steve]

36 square miles.

[Rob Sand]

All right.

[Steve]

It's a big chunk of ground.

[Rob Sand]

I'm betting she didn't have a lot of competition for that.

[Steve]

She would. Sometimes it would be that no one would run against her.

[Rob Sand]

Yep.

[Steve]

Which makes it very easy to win.

[Rob Sand]

That's. That's much better. Yeah, I would prefer that. That would be great. I could actually spend a lot more time hunting.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

For sure. And hanging out with my kids.

[Steve]

So you won that.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And that's how of a job is that?

[Rob Sand]

Four years. Reelected in 22. And to your point, when I won in 18, that was the first time in Iowa in 36 years, which I think was my life. Basically. I was 36 at the time, but basically the first time in my life that a statewide incumbent Republican lost to a Democratic challenger. So as auditor as. No. For any state, any. Any statewide office. Yeah.

[Steve]

We.

[Rob Sand]

We tend to reelect our incumbents in Iowa. There's. There's exceptions, but. Yeah.

[Steve]

And we were talking about running for governor, and we're. We're not going to get into this yet because we're going to talk about deer.

[Rob Sand]

Good.

[Steve]

Running for governor.

[Rob Sand]

It's.

[Steve]

It's. This is the first time in some long period of time. It's an open race.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. First time. Let's see. Basically since. First time in 20 years.

[Steve]

God.

[Rob Sand]

Yep. Yep. So it was you going back to people on the inside. One of the things that kind of made me push to do it was. So we uncovered a record amount of misspent money in my first term, I get reelected. The response to Democrats and Republicans and independents in Iowa reelecting me was the legislature and the governor passed a law said state agencies can hide evidence of misspent tax dollars from our office.

[Steve]

Can hide. I understand.

[Rob Sand]

I know. Because why would you ever do that? Right. That's wrong. It's bad. Yes. That's what they did.

[Steve]

But help me understand, like, what's the argument for hiding evidence? Oh, well, that's.

[Rob Sand]

That's the argument you got to make. You got to have words come out of your mouth. It's all bs. The words that would come out of their mouth were, oh, well, we're trying to protect your privacy. Got it. Privacy for waste, fraud and abuse of my tax dollars. I don't want privacy for that.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

Every. Every government watchdog in the country that weighed in on this law, Democrats, independents, Republicans, they were all like, don't, don't, don't do this. This is terrible. You're going to see an increase in waste of tax dollars if you pass this law. They passed it anyway because they. Because they saw that we were like, you know, doing the job, and they were like, hey, he's making. He's letting people know what's happening. We can't have that.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

So.

[Steve]

But then you won after that?

[Rob Sand]

No, I got reelected. Then they did that.

[Steve]

So that made the job less fun.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, I mean, we're about to do something important. We're about to tell people a big deal. We're trying to hold people accountable. And they're like, we don't want you to look at that. Oh, well, what am I doing here then, huh?

[Steve]

There was a.

[Rob Sand]

There was. I remember one of the quotes from someone who was like, on the government oversight committee for the American Institute of CPAs was like, if you pass this law, you may as well make it so you don't have a state auditor. Oh, that's what they did.

[Steve]

And that's what they're like. That's what we mean.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. They were like, perfect. Let's pass this sucker. That's just the endorsement they wanted, huh? Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, yeah, job suddenly became less interesting, less fun. I. I really. I. I mean, this is a piece of. This is rooted in my faith. My faith, as those stories mentioned. Very important to me. One of the stories that always stuck out to me in as a kid was Jesus flipping over the tables of the money changers in the temple. People in a position of trust and power. Right. Who are abusing that trust and power. And I. I love the work I was doing as a prosecutor going after corrupt public officials, corrupt financial advisors who prey on people's trust. Right. Who use their position to get more for themselves. I love the work of holding people accountable who are in charge of tax dollars, making sure that they knew that someone is looking at them and didn't care about the power that they had, but cared about whether or not they were doing the right thing. And then you change that law and you take that away, and it's like, well, I don't want to do this anymore. And it makes it all the more important to say, sounds like we need a new governor, someone who's going to give the auditor their power back and do a bunch of other good stuff at the same time. That's kind of the idea.

[Steve]

Okay, let's jump into deer, please. That's what. Sealed deal. That's a sealed deal. Yeah, because we read the articles and cringe. He got a really big buck in the urban hunting program. Yes.

[Rob Sand]

Boom, done.

[Steve]

So explain. So you're in Des Moines.

[Rob Sand]

Yep. Okay.

[Steve]

What is the urban hunting program in Des Moines?

[Rob Sand]

What I can tell you of it, I've been doing it for, I think, 13 years. And many Iowa municipalities have got an urban hunting program because we got big whitetail over the state.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

And, you know, they're eating people's hostas and all that. And you always get a divide on the people who want you to take them and don't. But most cities have got a program, bow hunting only. You got to shoot from an elevated position so that your arrows going into the ground, you got to be in a stand. You have to take an annual. Every single year. You got to repass your marksmanship test so that you all. They always know.

[Steve]

Is it a serious test?

[Rob Sand]

It's not super. I would call it a proficiency. People call it a proficiency test. Yeah. So it's like 10 arrows from 15 yards and 10 arrows from 20 yards at a 9 inch target. It's not. It's not hard. Got it. And they don't want you to take shots beyond about 25 yards. So.

[Steve]

Yeah, like if someone said, hey, is he a good shot? And you said, he's proficient.

[Rob Sand]

Proficient, yeah.

[Steve]

Yeah, that feels right.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. You know what you're doing?

[Steve]

Yeah. And tell me again. So 10 shots.

[Rob Sand]

10. I think it's 10 from 20 yards and 10 from 15 yards at a 9 inch target. Got it. And you got to hit.

[Steve]

You got to do a background check and all that.

[Rob Sand]

I don't think if. If you had to do a background check, it would have been maybe at the beginning. You do have to take a bow hunters safety course at one point in your life.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

Which is awesome because I did that when I was like 14. Yeah. And so when I found out about the urban hunting program and it was like already November the first year, I was like, I gotta do what now? And I was like, oh, man, I did that. Hey, dad, didn't I do that? Isn't that that class you made me take? Yeah. Great. Now I just gotta go find my certificate. Okay, but once you do that. So then. So then it's an incentive program. But.

[Steve]

But the landowners are particip. They have to participate. Obviously. There are parks and stuff.

[Rob Sand]

There are parks and there's a system for doing the park hunting. I've always done private land hunting. Either our backyard or somebody I know. And then for this one, I locked. I knocked a lot of doors. But yeah, there's parks. What else do I need to add here? It's an incentive system. So every year to. To get a urban buck tag in the city of Des Moines, you got to take three antlerless deer the year before.

[Steve]

Man, that's earned a buck on steroids.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, there's. And it's different for.

[Steve]

Because they're trying to lower numbers and they don't want a lot of. They don't want a lot of funny business.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[Steve]

And they don't want big buck hunters flocking in.

[Rob Sand]

No, they. It's a. It's a very. Like, you gotta. You gotta earn that urban tag for a antlered buck.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

So.

[Steve]

So 20, 24, and it resets, I gather.

[Rob Sand]

Yes. And it doesn't get. That gets you into the lottery. Now, most years. Oh, if you're in the lottery. Lottery, yeah. Most years, if you're in. If you. If you get the three and you make it into the lottery, you will get an urban buck tag, but you're not guaranteed. You may not. And so most years I've gotten one, but there's other years where you don't.

[Steve]

And how are you showing that you got the three deer?

[Rob Sand]

You have to check them in. So it used to be in person, and then I. I don't remember if it was Covid or not, but they switched it to an online system. You got. You got to fill out your tag, you got to do your time, and you got to submit photographs, too.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

So that they have some certainty that this is a fresh, unique deer. Each got it. Yeah.

[Steve]

So the first year participating in the urban hunt, no chance for bucks. You got to do your three dose.

[Rob Sand]

That's right. That's right. Yep.

[Steve]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Sand]

And in this year, a guy sent me a picture. I'd put a post up. I was like, hey, I'm. I'd never done that before. Usually just hunted where I hunted. Hey, I'm looking for a big buck in Des Moines. I've got my urban buck tag. If you know anyone, let me know.

[Steve]

If you know anyone that has a.

[Rob Sand]

Big buck in your neighborhood, if you've seen a big buck in your neighborhood, let me know. And this guy had met at a party like 10 or 15 years ago.

[Steve]

That's one of those ones where you're like, it's so stupid. It might work.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, exactly.

[Steve]

Because, like, well, who would want to tell another guy about a big buck?

[Rob Sand]

And that's the thing.

[Steve]

But it might be just a guy that doesn't care.

[Rob Sand]

Yes, well. And a lot of these people are like that. That. That buck's eating my hostas.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

That buck, this, that, the other.

[Steve]

Because if I did an all company email.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

And I said, if anyone knows about a large buck.

[Rob Sand]

Exactly.

[Steve]

Let me know.

[Rob Sand]

Right.

[Steve]

I wouldn't. I'm not gonna get replies.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, but this is the city of Des Moines. People want you to take a deer. Right. And a lot of people are just like, yeah, here you go. Now, there's not that many. There's now Most of the hunters that are in the program who knew of this buck were like, hey, man, good for you. I did a lot of work. So he gave me one. I had one picture. Okay, man, I hoofed it.

[Steve]

But there's no way the buck is only using one property.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, no, he's. He's all over. There are other people that knew of him. Actually, the guy that measured him and he. This is green measure. He measured 209cow. Yeah.

[Steve]

So any bill that is very, very big.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Oh, yeah. Maybe we can wait. Should we.

[Rob Sand]

Thank you. Should we roll a photo? Definitely a photo.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Should we roll.

[Rob Sand]

Well, which photo. Which photo are we looking at here?

[Steve]

One of the bucks, the ones in.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

The dock live, maybe trail in the autumn.

[Steve]

The buck in the autumn of his life.

[Rob Sand]

That's actually the picture he sent me. That's literally the one.

[Steve]

He's like, hey, this one lives by me.

[Rob Sand]

And so. And so when I. When I. When I came to and picked myself up, up the floor and looked again at that buck, he's like, yeah, I don't. I don't know.

[Steve]

I don't want to waste your time, but, like, this buck's hanging around.

[Rob Sand]

This one seems kind of nice. Yeah.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Describe. I mean, that just looks like a Tang.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. If you're. If you're listening, main mainframe, ten pointer. In this picture, you can see a one big drop tine and a second smaller brow tine, which you can't see in this picture, is actually a second drop coming off of that same G1 go. Yeah. And he. And what's the funny thing in the picture is he looks young, but it's because his rack is so huge and he's in velvet. So, you know, there's always a little shrinkage, but not that much.

[Steve]

So when he. When the guy reaches out. When the guy reaches out.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Well, first off, how far? I'm not familiar with demo. Like, what. He says it's in this area. This is the area you like?

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, where do you live? He gives me his address, like, thank you. You know, have you seen him other places? He's like, no, I think he's only seen him once or twice. And from that point, I just go to work. You know, it's just. This is scouting. It's just more complicated when. When each postage stamp is another landowner. So I'm on onx, I'm looking at where he lives. I'm looking at, you know, topography. I'm figuring out if I was a buck over there, where would I Go. And I go. I. I knocked doors, just cold knocked on people's doors. I called people, if I could get their phone numbers, just called them up. Hey, my name's Rob. There's an urban bow hunting program in Des Moines to help population control.

[Steve]

This is all your prosecutor training?

[Rob Sand]

That's right. Well, I'm just opening with a story, you know, just letting them know why I'm calling. And I'm wondering if you're interested. I, I'm. I've been in the program for 13 years. It's never any issues for anybody. But I'm looking to hunt in your area, and I'm wondering if you'd be interested in letting me hunt on your property. Happy to answer all your questions.

[Steve]

Some of the people, average acreage.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, these houses, I mean, less than. Less than an acre for a lot of them. Now a handful of them or more.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Ton of doors.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going out in the evenings and knocking. I'm making phone calls. Some people are, yes. Some people are, no. Occasionally people know me. Like, one guy actually had my yard sign in his yard. So I was like, okay, that's like my odds here. Yeah. But then on the other hand, there were folks who.

[Steve]

Yeah, I'm actually not here about that.

[Rob Sand]

Thank you for putting my yard sign up. He's like, rob sand, you knock on my door. I was like, well, yes, I am knocking your door, but you'll be surprised as to why. And so. And I'm setting up cameras, you know, trying to figure out where. Where this guy is.

[Steve]

Zero.

[Rob Sand]

Zeroing in. And I had other people say, man, if I was going to let anybody hunt here, I'd let you. I'm with you, but I'm not going to let you hunt here, you know, so it's just, it totally depends. Totally depends. Some couples, you know, you'd have the. The wife would be the one who's like, no, don't hunt your other couples. The husband be the one who's like, no, we don't. I don't want you to hu. On here. And so I'm just, I'm, I'm. I'm hitting out. I'm striking out here. I'm hitting singles here, setting up cameras, zeroing in. Over the course of probably six weeks in the summertime.

[Steve]

Are you ever driving around and see it?

[Rob Sand]

One time. Okay. Not driving, but I. Well, tech. Okay. I'm, I'm. Am I on my bike? I'm either on my. Because I would take bike rides in the neighborhood to scout it Was. It was bikable from my house. And so I. I'd get on my bike, and instead of going east, like I might normally do, I'd go west and just bike around and be like, ooh. Because, you know, there's stuff you can't see on Onx, you don't know, and you can see the path and all that. So. But one. One time I drove into a property, I was going to go knock the door, and I look over there, and there's one of the guys in his bachelor group. One of the other bucks.

[Steve]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Sand]

And so I was. You know, hair on the back of my neck is like, all right, great. We're in the right spot here. We're making progress. So by the time we get to opening day, I got three properties where I've had him moving in the daylight on camera.

[Steve]

What's opening day?

[Rob Sand]

September 16th. Okay. Something like that. Like, middle of September. And I set up. It's been a southerly wind, so I set up on one where I like my chances. I got permission from two adjoining property owners. That's great, because that means I can be sitting in one, but it's a small property, so I can shoot into the other. This is very helpful because they both signed the document. You got to get a signed document if you're doing private land.

[Steve]

I got to interrupt the story just to ask this little clarifying question.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

What are the retrieval rules here?

[Rob Sand]

You know, it's. It's just. It's be. It's be so careful. That's the reason. Well, so. So technically speaking, in state of Iowa, if you have an animal that you have taken, you have. You have legal capacity to take the most direct line to that animal across someone else's property.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

Now, you ask law enforcement about that, and smart law enforcement will tell you, please ask. It's not that you have to ask permission. Just tell them, yeah, we don't want some. We don't want altercations. We don't want someone out there with a gun being like, what are you doing to my property? So, proper courtesy, best practice. Knock on somebody's door.

[Steve]

Okay?

[Rob Sand]

Now, I've been. I've been lucky. I've never had to. I've never had an issue with that. You do got to let folks know that you're hunting there if you're. If you're, like, next door. And so a lot of these folks, when I would call them, would be like, hey, I'm going to be hunting in your neighborhood. You know, I'm interested also. In hunting on your property. So there's a notification.

[Steve]

In all these years, though, I mean, when you shoot, you have to put the arrow. I noticed that. Yeah, there's an arrow. There's a mark on that buck where that mark is supposed to be. Yeah, but that's got to be a real thing.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

You know, you can't be chasing them 300 yards.

[Rob Sand]

No. You got to be careful. Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

Okay, so go on.

[Rob Sand]

Where were we?

[Steve]

You were. You had two properties where you could be on one and shoot onto the other one.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, because I got adjoining landowners. They both. So to do private, you got to have them sign a document. You know, it's the city's official document. The city's got to come out and inspect the property and say, like, okay, these distance separation requirements, everything's good, right? Yeah, yeah, they're. Well, I mean, I was hunting. Not far, you know, you. This is urban hunting, right? Like the guys at Sequan, you know, they talk about this. You got all these new variables. Dogs, right. I've had dogs chase away a buck before.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

You got people out there on a walk in a park. You could have a biker out there if you're in a park. And so they're real careful about where people go. Yeah. So opening day, I go out that first full weekend. I sit Saturday twice. I sit Sunday twice. Sunday morning, two minutes into hunting light. I've been in my stand for 45 minutes. There he is. Is that him? Is it him? And you know, like, you know how when you're right at hunting light, it's like, if you're in a field, great, plenty of light, but if you're in.

[Steve]

The woods, still not there.

[Rob Sand]

And because, remember, I mentioned I had seen his buddy in his bachelor group? The buddy in his bachelor group had one of the same drop tines, narrower frame, shorter tines, but close enough that at two minutes into hunting light, under a bunch of oak trees, I'm like, is it him? Is it him? Got it. And I wait and I wait, and I probably wait three minutes. That's probably all it takes for me to be like, it's him. And by the time I'm drawn, he's out of range. So that's that. Oh, it was him.

[Steve]

Oh, it was.

[Rob Sand]

No, it was him. But I'm waiting because if I said.

[Steve]

It was the buddy, it wasn't you. Oh, you were worried about the lookalike buddy.

[Rob Sand]

I was worried about the look, like, buddy got you. Because I noticed, okay, this looks like him. It's a it's a big mature.

[Steve]

You wanted to make sure it was not.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Because there is no you get your one, you know, and I didn't want.

[Steve]

To screw this up and you paused and there goes your opportunity.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Which I'm glad that I did it.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

You know, but there you went.

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[Rob Sand]

So what? A week later I'm setting up a stand on another property and I turn around and there he is. So I freeze, can't move. I'm there for 10 minutes. Finally he just wanders away. So I had two sightings on him and then the next. And then. So let's see. So the first two weekends I'm out. Literally, I'm sitting Saturday till noon lunch break. Hang out with My family a little bit, go out, sit for the afternoon into the evening, both Saturday and Sunday, skipping church. Lord forgive me. October then. And then I see him twice in that time frame. And then like this first weekend in, in October, there's this cold front coming in. I'm like, all right, this is it. And I'm running for governor, by the way. At the same time, I'm doing 100 public town halls, one in every single county across the state. And I'm. And as this cold front is coming in, by the way I'm sitting, I'm getting him on camera. Steve, it's 85 degrees.

[Steve]

But why are you already running for governor then? How long do you got to run?

[Rob Sand]

I know, isn't that stupid? 18 months.

[Steve]

You run for governor for 18 months?

[Rob Sand]

I wasn't even the first person in the race, but yeah, campaigns are that long these days. Yeah.

[Steve]

So you're running for governor and hunting.

[Rob Sand]

I'm running for governor and hunting and doing my day job and trying to be a dad and a husband.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

Some days are better than others. But, you know, I'm doing all these town halls all across the state, so I'm traveling a lot. And here comes this cold front finally, because again, this buck, this is a 209 inch buck, he's moving in 85 degree heat. I've got him on camera, you know, and so I'm out there just sweating, sitting in my stand, praying that I'll be in the shade because if the sun hits me, it's over. But finally we get this cold front coming in and I'm like, okay, this is it. Because I got basically a day to hunt this cold front. After that I'm on the road and what I'm thinking is, you know, I know there's other people who are looking for this buck. I, I bet I've been. This is part of the reason I'm hunting so hard. Because if I don't get him when this cold front hits, he's probably going to be moving more and someone else is going to put their tag on him, which. Good for them. If that's what happens, good for them. But I'm working hard. When, by the way, I've never done much early season hunting before. Big fan now, because you can go out after work and you still got two hours of daylight. Oh, which. One of the cool things about urban hunting.

[Steve]

No, it's not like dark at five o'. Clock.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. And your commute to your stand is five minutes. So you're just like, all right, well, drive over there. Climb up. There's one property that I hunt where I'm. I'm. I drive into a parking lot at, like, a printing shop, and there's this chunk of woods over there, and I just drive in, park in the back corner, and I walk about 30 yards and I'm in my tree. It's.

[Steve]

You can see your car?

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, I can see my car. I can see people come out for their smoke breaks. You know, like, all these different variables that just make the urban stuff a little bit more complicated.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

You got to do an episode. Urban hunting.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, it's. It's. It's a trip.

[Steve]

Yeah, I'd have. Yeah, it's a trip. I'd like. Dude, I'd be ner. I'd be. It'd be nerve wracking. I. I'd be. All I'd be sitting there is being like, man, I don't want to trail a deer all through the neighborhood.

[Rob Sand]

I do know a guy. I do know a guy I used to work with. He was at the attorney general's office who had a bad experience where somebody did not have fantastic arrow placement.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

And the deer, I think, with an arrow in it came into his backyard. But that is. I've been doing this urban program, I think, for 13 years. That's actually the only story I know. God. Of a bad thing. Yeah.

[Steve]

Because people take it. They're so aware of the problem. They probably self limit again.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yeah. And everyone who's in this program, it's a. It's a cool thing to be able to do. And so we're. We're careful, you know, so. Cold front, it's raining. I go out in the morning, it's raining. I soak through my boots. I come in for a midday break, go back out, put on my insulated boots instead, climb back up. It's. And then it just opens up. It's dumping rain. I'm like, okay, he's not gonna move in this kind of weather. So I'll climb out 30 yards to my truck in this. In this guy's driveway. Sit in my truck for 45 minutes. It. It lightens up. It's still raining, but it lightens up. I'm like, all right, we got 45 minutes here. Go back out there. Climb back up. You know, I'm sitting there for 10 minutes. Look up, there he is. And what's he doing? Rubbing. And I'm like, okay, here we go. It's still. It's still. It's still coming down, but it's not it's not terribly heavy. And the angle he's at, the spot he's at, I have to get. I'm in this really unique tree that like juts out. And so I have my climbing sticks up to here, and then I can stand here. Even though the tree keeps going. Yeah, I'm like, I need to get lower. So I get onto my top climbing stick and I take like, I take like two steps down. I'm at full draw and I slip. Now I do saddle hunting. And so I'm always trying to keep my weight in my saddle. And so instead of falling, I just twist out around the tree.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

At full draw, I'm just on. I'm just on a ride. Like a swing? Yes, yes. I'm just on this really exciting ride and I quit swinging. I bumped the tree, but it's raining and I didn't make much noise because again, there's no hook. My weight is already in the saddle. Yeah, it's kind of swing out. I stopped swinging. I let down. I just get myself back onto my climbing stick. I look over, he's still rubbing. No idea. Draw. That's it. 25, 40 yards. Yeah. Still raining. So. And the best part about this, because you go back to, you know, the importance of just. You're hunting in an urban area. You really don't want to upset people.

[Steve]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Sand]

I'm hunting at a property where the driveway has a retaining wall that backs up to it, so I can back my pickup up, lower the tailgate, and without having to field dress the deer in the rain out in this guy's yard, just drag him in.

[Steve]

It's like a loading bay.

[Rob Sand]

Yes, a literal loading bay for 209 inch bucks.

[Steve]

And then where'd you head?

[Rob Sand]

My dad's place. He got me into hunting. It was pretty cool to take that. Take him. And I, you know, I've been like, Well, I mean, grin too. But like, there were people that I was texting about this buck. Like I was going hard. I've never. And I'm not a. This is the first time really, that I had like a. People say, you know, target buck. I've never really had like a target buck. I'll kind of. I might, I might set up some cameras, kind of see who's around and be like, oh, I'd shoot that if I saw it. But I'm not naming things. You know, I usually go out in November. I'm busy.

[Steve]

Yeah. What'd you name him? Be honest with you.

[Rob Sand]

He didn't have a name. No. I.

[Steve]

Now he's just like the buck. That one buck.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, his Name now is 209, but like, you know, my. My dad is one of the people I'm texting with. Right. Like, he. He got me into bow hunting when I was a teenager and it was really cool to be able to pull up that picture that you've got up there is. We are in his driveway, you know, and it was. And. And so my dad and I are just flipping out. We get to.

[Steve]

That's like biggest buck in the family history.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my dad. So he. My dad's a first generation hunter. I'm almost certain, like he might. He might have done squirrel. And obviously you go back enough generations and everybody's doing it, but my, my grandpa Bob, his dad wasn't a bow hunter anyways and wasn't a. Wasn't a deer hunter. But my dad got me into bow hunting and we'd go out and do squirrel. We do a lot of fishing together too. But it was a pretty cool thing to share that with him.

[Steve]

So did you just grab that thing and just drag it over to the retaining wall?

[Rob Sand]

Yes.

[Steve]

And just out of there quick.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, it's raining. I'm wet. I don't want to be out here any longer than I have to. And I mean, you think about this stuff and it's like, look, you're gonna leave a gut pile out in a guy's property. No, you don't want to. Might you. Yeah, but when I can just do this, then I don't have to worry about it.

[Steve]

Oh yeah. I think discreet is the way to go.

[Rob Sand]

That's especially if you want to get permission again for next year, you know. Yeah.

[Steve]

I want to jump something for listeners before we start recording. Rob sand here shared with me that he. Well, he can share with you his. Your taxidermy plan, which I think is not good.

[Rob Sand]

What? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want the taxidermist and I'm. I'm open minded, but I shot this thing in the rain and that if you look at that picture, it's that, you know, the rack's got a nice shine on it, it's wet. And I talked to the taxidermist about making it look like that when it's done. Like a kind of like a lacquer on it to give it a shine. Steve thinks that's a dumb idea.

[Steve]

I really. You can't. You'd be corrupting it. You can't paint the antlers. Well, like maybe you could rub a little what's that stuff? That one of your mom. When you're like a little kid, your mom would spray it on the wood furniture. Old English.

[Rob Sand]

Oh.

[Steve]

Like, whatever.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Spray the wood furniture.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

With the aerosol can.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

I mean, maybe now and then a touch, but it's. You don't want Generate your children.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Your children's children are like, what in.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

The world is all over the antlers in that picture? There's a nice shine, and they'll think.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, there's a nice shine there.

[Steve]

Lacquer paint. They're not gonna be like, oh, because it was raining.

[Rob Sand]

No, they'll know the answer. They'll know the answer.

[Steve]

Just won't.

[Rob Sand]

So I.

[Steve]

It'll just be the Elacorate. And it was dumb.

[Rob Sand]

I had a. I had one buck with a big Roman nose, and I had him recreate the Roman nose.

[Steve]

Sure.

[Rob Sand]

Right.

[Steve]

100%.

[Rob Sand]

100%. I. I just. To me that it's not when. When you. When you do a shoulder mount, it's not just, this is that deer, but it's this is that moment.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

And I always like to tell people, by the way, you want to see the rest of them come on into the state auditor's office. I like to call it the public sector Cabela's. You walk in and you're like, oh, a lot of deer in here. And a buffalo, then a turkey. But to me, that mount is like, if you can have it, be that moment and bring that moment back. That's.

[Steve]

That's unique, you know, Argument you could be laying on me that I would buy is if you were saying to me, listen, man, it's my buck. That's how I want it.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve]

Because that's how I remember it.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

But I'm stuck thinking about posterity.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Yeah. Future generations being. Why did grandpa lacquer the deer. That's right.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Have, like, a spray bottle and every now and then just moisten it.

[Rob Sand]

Yes. Like a plant.

[Steve]

Yes. Now that you say to your friends, you say to your friends or future generations, you say, hey, you want to see what it looked like when I shot it? And get your spray.

[Rob Sand]

Hey, I'll tell my son. I'll tell my son, hey, buddy, you got to water the plants and the buck and the 209. I love that.

[Steve]

Because everybody wants to see what it looked like when I got it in the rain.

[Rob Sand]

I love that. I love that idea. Yeah. That's the idea. Yeah.

[Steve]

We'll see.

[Rob Sand]

They haven't tried it before, and I don't know. You know, one of the things I was thinking about when. With Brooklyn sitting here is like, how much do you practice? You know, I need to find somebody who's willing to just. Just run a dry. Dry run in that before I do it on that one.

[Steve]

Well, yeah, they can just take some other little.

[Rob Sand]

They should have some sheds.

[Steve]

They'll take some racks and try to figure out a good.

[Rob Sand]

Right, Right.

[Steve]

John Hayes be able to help you with that.

[Rob Sand]

I don't know who that is.

[Steve]

Hayes Taxidermy Studio.

[Rob Sand]

All right. All right.

[Steve]

If you want to drive.

[Rob Sand]

Is he here in town? I don't want to be very far from here.

[Steve]

It's the wrong direction.

[Rob Sand]

It's at school. Taxidermy Scoville Taxidermy in Warren County, Iowa.

[Steve]

He's in the same state, but he's real far away right here.

[Rob Sand]

All right.

[Steve]

If you factor in. So factor in. Factor in people that would be jealous. Factor in people that would be just uncomfortable or opposed to hunting.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And then factor in people that would just love it that you got that buck.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

Just getting the big buck. If you had to weigh out in your head, like, here I am running for governor.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Is getting the big buck net positive or net negative? Because a lot of guys are gonna be like, he don't deserve that big buck.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Steve]

I should have gotten that big buck. I'm not voting for him.

[Rob Sand]

There is a guy that definitely was. Was definitely saying that. One guy definitely saying that.

[Steve]

And some people are like, how could he hurt that beautiful thing?

[Rob Sand]

Correct. I just literally replied to somebody about that on Threads today.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

You know, I was like, how could you do this? I mean, it's one thing if you're eating it, but you're just hunting for. I'm like, no. The law in the state of Iowa literally is you have to. You can't waste the meat. It's just. There's an astounding level of lack of curiosity. Right. About hunting. You know this.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

Like, people who just don't know, like, you. You have to. You have to eat the animal. It's literally the law in the state of Iowa. People don't know that.

[Steve]

Salvage requirements.

[Rob Sand]

Yep, that too. That, too. I don't know how it breaks down to me. I love hunting. I like to talk about things that I love. My social media presence, whatever channel you're on, it's Probably Rob Sand IA Although I think on TikTok, it's Rob Sand, Iowa. But my social media presence is like, I am a human being. I write, I. I will put up a post about the burrito that I had for lunch. I'll put up a post about going hunting, and then I'm going to put up a post about how dumb it was to make it so that the auditor can't look at misspent tax money.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

You know, like, it's. It's just like, these are basically like me. They're my accounts. And I understand that some people, that might make them upset, but, like, I'm not going to. I'm not going to not be who I am. Yeah, I'm going to be who I am. And if some people don't like it, that's okay. But other people do. The other thing is, and I kind of like this, I love the idea of surprising people when it comes to partisanship, expectations. Yeah, right. Yeah, I like that. All those, all that stuff you talked about. Right. Was like, oh, look at this guy. He sounds like a Republican, but he's a Democrat. Do you know what I sound. Those descriptions to me, I'm like, that just sounds like somebody from small town Iowa. Like, a lot of people in small town Iowa do that. Those, those values, those traditions, those don't belong to a political party. And, and I love the idea of being, like, out there. It's like, yeah, I am a Democrat. Yeah, I do like to hunt. Now, I'm also out there as someone who thinks that we should end the special legal privileges of the Democratic and the Republican parties.

[Steve]

You.

[Rob Sand]

I've yet to hear a good reason for why we are stuck having the lesser of two evils on every fricking ballot and feeling like, well, you know, you've never done a thing for me, but, boy, this one I really don't like. So I guess I have to vote for you. Right. But, like, I was. I was an independent when I first registered to vote. I realized not long after that that in Iowa, to vote in the primary, you have to join a party.

[Steve]

It's a close. That's called closed pros.

[Rob Sand]

You got it? Closed primary. Can I swear on this program?

[Steve]

Yeah, like, don't say anything crazy. Look, don't say anything that would ruin your campaign.

[Rob Sand]

I just won't swear then.

[Steve]

No, no, you can swear a little bit.

[Rob Sand]

That's hogwash.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

That's a terrible idea.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

This is America.

[Steve]

Oh, you're gonna be like, it was bs.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, I was gonna say, you could.

[Steve]

Have gotten away with that.

[Rob Sand]

It is bs.

[Steve]

Hogwash is good.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. You're telling me. That's a less common one for Iowa, we got a lot of hogwash. We got less horse. Bucky. You're telling me in America, where we celebrate Independence Day, we're going to tell independent voters that they are less equal and they don't get to participate in our democracy. That's hogwash, right? Yeah, but that's what it is. We have these, we have these close primates guys. We have two private clubs that run the United States of America. That's what it is. It is absolutely wrong. And I think we should change it. But I, I did. I registered as a Democrat because I think Jesus is for the little guy. And my perception, particularly at the time of the Democratic Party, is that was the party for the little guy. I'm trying to make it stay that way. And I also remember Clinton when he was president, as a Democrat balancing the budget and using the surplus to in part to pay down the debt. And I was like a teenager and I just remember thinking like, oh, thanks, because I don't have to pay for all that someday.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

You know, and those are the reasons basically that I register as a Democrat for the most part. Also as a guy that like to hunt and fish, I was like, well, they want to keep the places I like to hunt and fish clean and pure. And that's good too.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

But that doesn't change the fact that, like, why, why should I have to join a private club to exercise my sacred right to vote? That's messed up.

[Steve]

Yeah. That's one of the thing I talk about very. When I talk about my own politics often, or I talk about sort of the politics of hunting and fishing. I often describe a. To put it negatively, I'll say, you always have to be paranoid.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

To put it positively, which I never do, it would be that each side helps you out in some ways.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Steve]

But yes, when it comes to environmental protections, clean air, clean water.

[Rob Sand]

Right.

[Steve]

Habitat preservation, we find a lot of friends in the Democratic Party.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

When it comes to acceptance, support of the culture of hunting.

[Rob Sand]

Yep.

[Steve]

Firearm rights. Yep. People that are kind of like out there and proud of outdoor heritage.

[Rob Sand]

Yes.

[Steve]

We find a lot of friends in the Republican Party.

[Rob Sand]

Yes.

[Steve]

But at the same time, I just, I don't want to use the word hate. I do not like, I don't like the two party system.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And it's not even the system that bugs me. What bugs me is the way the system enforces itself.

[Rob Sand]

Yes.

[Steve]

Do you know what I mean? The way you have to. It drives people insane. If you don't take all your Views and fit them into the box.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, get in the box.

[Steve]

And when you see someone in the political world, when you see them, it's just, it's painful to watch when you see someone and they get to the point where they go, man, I need to start pretending I think a thing. I don't think.

[Rob Sand]

Yep.

[Steve]

Because here I am in this complex world and I need to boxify.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

So it's not, it's not even the parties I have a problem with. It's not the two party system I have a party with. I have a problem with how organized. And so there's a journalist, there's a.

[Rob Sand]

Reinforcing culture around the two party system.

[Steve]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Sand]

And I, I say that at every one of my town halls. We go in hard on how broken that system is because it tells us there's only two ways to think to your point. Yeah, we know that's ridiculous. There's literally five people in that room. That's five ways to think right now. And so we start these things out. We do, you know, we say the system is broken. You've all been invited here to help change it. So raise your hand if you're a Republican. We clap for the Republicans who are in attendance. Raise your hand if you're an independent voter. We clap for the independent voters who are in attendance. And then say, I'm all big on fairness, so let's clap for the Democrats too. Right. And then, and then let's prove to ourselves, but also to everyone else who wants us to hate each other because then we're easier to control. Let's prove to everyone that we all, despite our differences, can work together. Let's sing the first verse of America the Beautiful. Oh, yeah. And so 100 times across the state of Iowa this year, we did that. I don't lead it. The point is we all sing. My microphone is like, you know, down by my knees. And it's a wonderful moment for people to just have this. Hold on a second. That's right. We can just do this differently.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

And usually by the time that's over, there's one person in the audience you can find who's having an experience, like feeling something. Right. That's what I want us to push towards. I mean, I look at what we did, what they did in the state of Iowa, and I'm like, they literally are so comfortable thinking that this is going to be one party control forever, that they passed a law that auditors around the United States of all political persuasions said will increase waste, fraud, Abuse because they think they own this thing. Now the two party system fundamentally is broken. And you pick, pick an issue, right. Could be water quality, could be second Amendment. Part of the issues around that issue are where they are and they are the magnitude that they are. Because the incentive in the political system is for people to throw bombs at each other and have a food fight instead of actually sitting down and saying, hey, let's figure out how we're going to solve this problem. And if you break down those special legal privileges that the Democratic and the Republican parties have and you give us a real market for political candidates, we'll start to see changes where we are in more control. We the people are in more control of the politicians rather than feeling like we're sort of stuck into supporting them. Yeah, that's my, that's my number one thing. Any other issue gets fixed more easily when you have a system that's actually responsive to the people.

[Steve]

What does it look like when you're doing this as you, as you campaign? I'm not even clear on how. You guys haven't got to the primary yet.

[Rob Sand]

No. Next June.

[Steve]

How many people are in that?

[Rob Sand]

There's. Well, we'll find out. Because the, the qualifying for the ballot thing, like filing your paperwork to get on the ballot for the primary happens in like February, February, March. Okay, so maximum three. One of them is maximum three. Well, who have announced? Oh, there could be any number, but three on the Democratic side have announced. One's a nice guy named Paul that's announced for many offices and I'm not sure that he's ever collected enough signatures. The other's a lovely lady named Julie that I've known for years and think the world of. And, and then there's me.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And so this all plays out in November.

[Rob Sand]

So. So primary in June and then. Yeah, same data as the midterms for the, for the, the election. And then on the Republican side, there's five candidates over there, I think. Yeah, close to five. It's not five.

[Steve]

Corinne sent me a thing where you, you draw, you were drawn a distinction between politics and public service.

[Rob Sand]

Yes.

[Steve]

What's your take on that?

[Rob Sand]

Well, it's kind of the piece of, what we're talking about here. Right. Is, you know, politics is passing a law that everybody who's an expert in auditing degrees is going to make it harder to find misspent money. Mm. Public service is the six Republicans in the Iowa House that voted against that despite the fact their party wanted them to support it.

[Steve]

Good.

[Rob Sand]

Good for the six of them, they stood up to do the right thing. I'm proud of every one of them. And I look at every one of them, and I see, you know, yeah, we can have disagreements, but you showed some courage on that day. Good for you. Public Service. Is John McCain taking the microphone away from that woman back in the debates when she was like, you know, saying what. I don't remember what it was specifically, but, like, some kind of conspiracy theory about Obama? He takes a microphone, he says, ma', am, and he just sort of says. He says something positive about his opponent. That's public service.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

What you're saying is I do class act, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that's. That to me is. That's. That's public service. So much of the push is around party. Show me people who want to do it right, you know, show me people who are there not to be a Democrat or a Republican, but to try to do the right thing, figure out what the truth is, and then do the right thing. Those are the people that I want to work with. Yeah. I don't care if they're Democrats or Republicans or Independents or whatever. I want to work with people who just are focused on, like, I'm. I'm trying to. I'm trying to do this. I'm trying to be right. Well, you want. Here's. Here's a good example. Well, I'll toot my own horn here. I got elected in 2018. First decision was, who am I going to put in the two highest positions in the auditor's office? I picked an independent and a Republican who had made campaign contributions to my opponent. Oh, yeah. So I put them in those highest positions because I want to be a state auditor that's serving the whole state. And I want everybody to know that whether or not you supported me is not the determinant of whether or not I'm going to listen to you. Got it? And I am here to serve everybody. Now, people who like politics, they're like, rob, that's the wrong way to do this. You're supposed to punish the people who oppose you. What are you doing? You're crazy. And my attitude to that is like, well, I'm not. I'm not trying to, you know, accumulate all the power. I'm trying to just do the right thing. Like the concept of statesmanship. Right. Like, okay, the election's over. I won. Neener, neener. Too bad for you, but come on board. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. You can be a part of this, too I want your input every once in a while. I'm almost slightly incorrect.

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[Steve]

What's your family think about this? Is your wife sweating it if you win?

[Rob Sand]

You know, it's a great question. She understands. She's a believer in it. She understands why it's important. She thinks we need a new direction in the state of Iowa. She doesn't love it. She's got her own actually. She's, she runs her family business, which actually is all about improving the efficiency of the food system. You appreciate it? I like to describe it as using the every part of the proverbial buffalo. Oh. So they, they take materials from slaughterhouses around the United States and figure out something they could do with it.

[Steve]

Oh really?

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's cool.

[Steve]

Rendering and whatnot.

[Rob Sand]

One of, one of the things they do is rendering. Got it. Yeah.

[Steve]

Oh, no kidding.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, and she works there running it. And so, and so, you know, she did.

[Steve]

You know, politicians always say they're going to ask their wife or whatever, they're going to talk to their wife, they're going to ask their wife, her. Do you actually go do that? Do they, do, do they go say like, hey, can I run for governor?

[Rob Sand]

The distinction I would make is the people who are like, we sat down with our children and had a family discussion. I'm always like, really? Your children?

[Steve]

We send our kids out for family discussion.

[Rob Sand]

That's. See where I was like, we're close.

[Steve]

You guys got to go in the other room. We're going to have a family discussion.

[Rob Sand]

How old are yours?

[Steve]

My daughter's. I got a, I got a 10. My daughter's 13 in a couple days and I got a 15.

[Rob Sand]

All right, okay. So we got two boys, they're nine and 11.

[Steve]

We have the family discussion and they come in and we tell them what it was. We tell them what was.

[Rob Sand]

That's a closer. That's a lot closer. And we'll explain why this decision was made. Right. And why like, no, we're not going to Disneyland. And there's a thousand reasons why, but the biggest one is we don't like Disneyland. Our boys actually, thankfully have never asked to go to Disneyland. But. But no, like, will she and I talk about this? Absolutely. You know, that's. It's a big decision. Same with running for state auditor too. You know, lower, lower office, but still a big decision.

[Steve]

I.

[Rob Sand]

When, when politicians are like, we sat down and we listened to our kids. I mean like really, you let a nine year old decide like what you're.

[Steve]

Do with your life, you're going to run for higher.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Or, or any office. Any office.

[Steve]

Nah.

[Rob Sand]

Right?

[Steve]

No.

[Rob Sand]

Right. City council. I just be like, well, my kid, my kid is a child. They don't understand what this means. This is a big decision and it's important. We will let them know what we've decided. Yeah, similar to you. Yeah. And no, they're not in the room. Cuz if they're in the room when Christina and I are talking about it, then they're gonna have input regardless.

[Steve]

Yeah, for sure, man. The part about it that really gets me is maybe it hasn't happened yet, but God, you gotta get some thick skin, man.

[Rob Sand]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

Because toward the end, dude, they get ugly.

[Rob Sand]

They do, they do.

[Steve]

They're gonna be like, his buck wasn't that big.

[Rob Sand]

It measured 207.

[Steve]

They're like, not net.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. He's telling you it was 209. But that's gross. And we don't mean rob sand.

[Steve]

Girl.

[Rob Sand]

Score a lot of that stuff. You know, I spent seven years in. In courtrooms, okay. Plenty of. Plenty of criminal defendants and defense attorneys, you know, telling people I'm wrong about this or did a terrible job on that. That's okay. I've run two campaigns already. I'm accustomed to it to a certain degree. But then there's also. I mean, the ultimate thing to me is just the serenity prayer. I can't control what other people say about me. This is a great rule. Serenity pair, you know, And I'll probably screw it up, but it's something to the effect of God, grant me the.

[Steve]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Sand]

The courage to change the things I can. The wisdom. No, the serenity to accept the things I cannot. Know the difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't control what other people say about me. I know they're going to lie about me. They're lying about me already. All I could do is live my life and make my own decisions and be honest with people about what I believe and what I think we need to be doing. And if they pick me, great. If they don't, that's their right. Yeah.

[Steve]

You could be like, screw y', all. I'm going hunting.

[Rob Sand]

That's right. Dude. There are many days where. Let's not even get into it.

[Steve]

So would you be able to be, like. Would you be able to be the hunting. Like a hunting governor?

[Rob Sand]

I mean, I just would be.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

I. So. So both of my jobs as both state auditor and as a prosecutor, I can find ways sitting quiet in a tree stand to be productive.

[Steve]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

Back in the day, when I was prosecuting, I'd have to, like, maybe listen to a witness's interview. Well, I'd go listen with one. One. One earpiece in. While I'm in a tree stand reading. I can read audit reports while I'm in a tree stand on a tablet, you know, on a. And that works fine. I can read them printed out. So there's a. There's a way to balance things. It's also just a really good place to do some thinking. Just. You're in the. You're in the woods, you're by yourself. No. Maybe you're 30ft from a parking lot, but it's not that different.

[Steve]

What Are some environmental issues that, that, I mean, I know you got, I think so often a policy on. At federal level.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[Steve]

Well, local, like. I think about things in my state. I think about things in Alaska a lot, and I think federal. So, so you, Whatever you bring up, I'm probably not going to know what it is. But give me an example of, of a habitat issue, an environmental issue that's going on. Where you're at, how you look at it, how you talk about it to people.

[Rob Sand]

We've got a. We've got a. A very much a percolating issue with water quality right now. We've got a water quality problem in Iowa. Record beach closures this summer. Very high nitrate levels.

[Steve]

Just ag runoff.

[Rob Sand]

A lot of it is ag runoff. It's not exclusively agron off. And the important thing I always try to get people to remember is farmers are signing up for conservation programs and getting turned away. Yeah. Because politicians won't put in the funding.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

And to me, that's been.

[Steve]

That's been a huge. That's federal in some degree.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Steve]

And that's been a huge headache, man. Yep.

[Rob Sand]

So. So some of its federal funds not opening it up. Farmers, and this is survey after survey of, of farmers and growers and producers in the state of Iowa. They. They care about their impact on. On water quality. They care about their impact on the environment. They, they want to do better survey after survey. But 90% of farm income goes to the biggest 10% of farms. A lot of farmers are just scraping by. Yeah. And so they're putting together a plan, saying, hey, I'll. I'll put my money into this plan. Here's what I'm going to do on, on this acreage, on this parcel. Here's what I'm going to do over there. But I'm applying for the cost share because I, I can't do this whole thing by myself. And politicians aren't funding the programs enough. And that of course, then the farmer's like, well, then I can't do that. And all the rest of us are saying, well, then again, we don't see the improvements in water quality because it's not moving fast enough. Yeah.

[Steve]

So they don't kill the program. They just don't move the money to it.

[Rob Sand]

Right. It's still there. And they can say, oh, we put this much into this program this year. But what they don't tell you is actually that much was applied for. People want to do it. And instead they run around and try to Divide us from each other because we got this again, broken two choice system where they just try to say, oh, if so. And so is talking about water quality. That means they're anti this or anti that. No, actually, a lot of the people who are farming, who are growing, who are producing, they too want to help improve water quality. It's politicians that aren't giving them the money to do it oftentimes.

[Steve]

So putting so acreage into conservation programs.

[Rob Sand]

It could be that. I mean, it could be putting in terraces, lots of different practices.

[Steve]

It could, like improvements.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, it could be improvements that just help water quality. I mean, maybe it's. We are, we are 49th in public land. Iowa is. So maybe it's having more public land, but maybe it's actually just having more ninth. 49th, I wouldn't guess that. I think 85% of Iowa is farmed or used in some way for agricultural production. So I'd like us to improve that.

[Steve]

You got a lot of folks access issues?

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there's a couple, there's a couple of Facebook bow hunter groups that I'm, I've been active in for a long time. And you always get a little bit extra credit, you know, if you're out there on public land to fill that tag. But we still just don't have that much by comparison to every other state.

[Steve]

Do you guys have good stream access laws? If you get into a river, can you, can you travel and anchor and wade or.

[Rob Sand]

That's actually a great question. You can travel. I don't know about anchoring. You can, you can wade. I don't know to what degree. Got it. I would imagine, because I'm just thinking mostly about like, literally the size of a lot of rivers in Iowa. We got some of the best trout fishing in the Midwest, actually up in my hometown. In decorum, a lot of these streams are teeny tiny. I mean, you're talking about, like, nobody was a fly fisher when I was growing up in northeast Iowa. Because Your stream is 2 1/2ft wide. Got it.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

So you're, you're, you're standing there just plinking a spinner in and reeling it up.

[Steve]

You're not float tripping.

[Rob Sand]

No. Yeah, no, I'm with you. And so waiting is like, you know, there's not even. Why would you. The only thing you're gonna do by waiting is let trout. Trout know that somebody's in that, in that stream with them.

[Steve]

That the stream access thing and the water access thing is. That's not something I discussed When I grew up in Michigan. But it's a huge issue out here.

[Rob Sand]

Sure, sure.

[Steve]

With the, with the larger rivers and whether you get on them. Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

And I've been, I've been vocal about the corner crossing stuff too.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

I mean that's just, that's like such a no brainer to me.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

Like look, no one is doing anything to your property. I'm going to go from this public parcel here to that one that they touch each other. I can't imagine the attitude of someone who says like, no, I, I don't want you to do that.

[Steve]

Well, I'll tell you, the court, the courts all agree with you.

[Rob Sand]

Good.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

But it's not, it hasn't been. Is it done? It's not done. It's done.

[Steve]

It's done in that. The ninth. So it was appealed and appealed and appealed.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

The ninth Circuit court. So the Federal. Ninth Federal Circuit court ruled that it's legal. They tried to appeal to the Supreme Court.

[Rob Sand]

They wouldn't hear it.

[Steve]

Supreme Court said feel settled to us.

[Rob Sand]

Great.

[Steve]

They didn't take the case.

[Rob Sand]

Love it.

[Steve]

What has yet to Happen is the 9th is Wyoming.

[Rob Sand]

It only covers. That's only good New Mexico. But if you can rely on it still.

[Steve]

Yeah. But the 10th, like I guess what would happen is right now it'll take a little time to see if people corner cross and what prosecutors attitude because theoretically a prosecutor could still try to prosecute it.

[Rob Sand]

You could.

[Steve]

I don't think there's a prosecutor in the state of Montana that is going to take that case.

[Rob Sand]

I would hope not.

[Steve]

There's no way.

[Rob Sand]

I would think you'd have more people upset with you about it than you would have. Happy with you.

[Steve]

And why would you want to invite what happened down in Wyoming?

[Rob Sand]

Well, and then especially what you're going to end up with is like, okay, look, technically speaking, the ninth circuit decision doesn't apply outside of the ninth Circuit. But we all know it exists. We all know the Supreme Court denied certification to your point. So are you as the prosecutor going to put all these resources into a case that you think at the end of the day you're probably going to lose? Yeah.

[Steve]

And in the case they relied on this Unlawful Enclosures act, which is an old grazing act. Unlawful Enclosures Act.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, interesting.

[Steve]

That was cited. And, and that applies here.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

That applies outside the 9th Circuit. Yeah. So it's like there's still some level of confusion. It would have been kind of cool if the supreme court had taken it.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. On the other hand, it could have.

[Steve]

Been kind of not like the W. Yeah. Yeah. It could have been kind of cool if they want to just making it like just absolute law of the land instead. Just the ramifications are gonna be slower.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. It's still though, I guess. I. And. And that's, you know, and that's the other trick too, because if you're. If a lot of the folks that are out there hunting public land is because they don't have access to private land. And so they're not the kind of person who's like, sue me, I've got the resources to fight this out. Yeah. Now I'm betting that there's, you know, hunting advocacy organizations that would cover their legal expenses. But do they know that when they're standing there at that corner and they want to do that crossing.

[Steve]

That's what happened in Wyoming. But no, they didn't know that.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

No, we spent, we spent money on it. A lot of people. People spend money on it.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. I listened to the. I like the nature is nonpartisan guy you guys had on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of stuff that he says is kind of like in. In. In the same thinking as the sort of anti two party system approach. Just like we need to break it, Break, break down the boxes. Just get people to the point where you are free to think the way you think, tell people what you believe. The other benefit of it too is I actually think you get. The politicians have more of incentive to be honest about their opponents and to be truthful. Because if you have. Alaska actually is a great example of this. They have a reformed system. They have a single open primary, public primary. Every candidate is on it. Every voter, including the independents, can walk in. You just vote for your 1 favorite and they send the top four or five to the general election. And then they do ranked choice voting. The other thing I think is pretty simple is approval voting. Here are four candidates. Vote for as many of them as you approve of. Oh. And so if you and me and Corinne are running for office against each other and we have approval voting, I'm going to inherently understand that each of you have a bunch of people that really want you to win. But some of those people will also support me if I behave in a way that attracts their support. So instead of being like, Corinne is the scum of the earth, you know, I'm gonna be like, I like Corinne.

[Steve]

Corinne all but deserves to die. That's right.

[Rob Sand]

Yes.

[Steve]

Right. But I don't want to take it too far.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. She's out to Destroy your way of life. You know, if. If instead I highlight areas of agreement. If I tell you, you know, like, I, I, oh, we've texted for years. It was so fun to actually, you know, if I say positive things about somebody instead of running them into the ground, then more of your supporters will also support me. And Maybe it's only 30%, but if I can get 30% of your supporters to also back me instead of 5%, that helps me win. So we could have a system that actually incentivizes civility, honesty. Right? Cause if I'm lying, all your supporters are gonna be like, that's a lie. He's terrible. I don't approve of him. Break down these walls, make politicians behave like normal people do that, and we can start really solving a lot of.

[Steve]

Problems, I think after I've been more careful about this. But after Charlie Kirk was killed, I started being like, now if I'm saying something, if I'm talking about a politician, I'll be like, man, he loves his country. He loves his family. I don't agree with him about buffalo. It is like, I think that's, like, I don't see eye to eye on it, but let's just clarify.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Steve]

I think that loves America.

[Rob Sand]

I think that's a step in the right direction. But you don't see people do it very often. And this is. You know what's funny too, is, like, I mentioned those. Those bow hunting Facebook groups I'm in, they're like the two most supportive Facebook groups I've ever seen. Just people being like, good for you. You know, someone will put a post up, right? And it'll be someone who's like, man, I've been hunting for three years. I finally got my first deer. It'll be a spike buck. Then, like, every single. Every single comment. And maybe this is an Iowa thing.

[Steve]

They don't feel the need to tear them down.

[Rob Sand]

No. Everyone's like, dude, way to go. Way to be persistent. Good for you. Like ordinary people, we live in a world. Part of human nature is working together, supporting each other. And you look at the comments on these posts and these Facebook groups for hunting, and everybody is in there. They're not being like, I wouldn't shot that out of giving them four years to a T. They're all just like, way to go shoot what makes you proud. If you're happy with that book, we love that book. Way to go. Good for you. Yeah, I was actually. I just, I just saw this article about. They just did. I can't remember if it's like, lidar, but somebody up in the Andes Foundation. Funnels.

[Steve]

Yeah. Did you see that? I was reading about that. Oh, they found them under Lake Erie.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Oh, no way. All right, so we're talking, like, tens of thousands of years ago. Human beings are building funnels to hunt.

[Steve]

I. I think I said eerie. I think I said eerie.

[Rob Sand]

You didn't say.

[Steve]

You're supposed to say Huron, but please continue.

[Rob Sand]

All right, all right.

[Steve]

One of them ladies.

[Rob Sand]

You're a Michigan guy. Yeah. Right. I'm like. I'm like, I know which one Michigan is, but that's human history. That's human nature. People, tens of thousands of years ago, building walls together to help funnel animals into the right and easiest place to kill them. Right before I did my buffalo hunt, I read American Buffalo. Loved reading that book.

[Steve]

Oh, thank you.

[Rob Sand]

But piece of that was so fun learning about, because a lot of this I didn't know. You know, pointing them to the now. And now, of course, I'm blanking on it. You know, getting them to the hill where there's the drop on the other.

[Steve]

Side, the jump site.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. But they're working together, right, to make the job easier for everybody later on. But yet here we are with this political system that incentivizes anger and division and hatred and lying. We're so much better than it. It's a mess.

[Steve]

How. This is gonna be hard for you to answer honestly. There's a merit. There's a piece of marital advice. Yanni, my buddy Yanni, introduced me to it. Let's say you're fighting with your wife.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Yeah. And then you realize you're fighting about something you don't really care about. So what they'll do is the same Ian Kren are having a big fight about where this microphone would be. And I realized at some point I'm arguing like hell. But I just, like, I honestly don't. Doesn't really. But I'm just here.

[Rob Sand]

Why am I arguing?

[Steve]

I'm just here arguing.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And I love my argument.

[Rob Sand]

Yes.

[Steve]

And I would wind up saying It's a three out of 10 for me.

[Rob Sand]

I love that.

[Steve]

It's a three out of 10. Right. And Krin's like, well, it's a 10. Yeah. And you're like, I'm at a 10. And I'm at a 10 microphone.

[Rob Sand]

And I'm like, okay, that is a great idea. Right. I'm gonna try to put that into practice.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

But you gotta be honest. But that's not the thing. You Gotta be honest about.

[Rob Sand]

But I thought I was getting off easy.

[Steve]

No, no. If you set yourself like you put all this time, 18 months and all that.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

How much do you get in your head? How much do you get in your head about, like, what if you fail?

[Rob Sand]

Not very much. I just work the hardest I can every day against serenity, prayer.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

You know, what if I fail? I don't know. I'll think about that. If I fail. I've never been.

[Steve]

You don't sit around being all depressed about that idea.

[Rob Sand]

I've never been a big anticipator.

[Steve]

Got it.

[Rob Sand]

You know, like, there's people who. Like, what's it going to be like when I this, when I that? For. For big things and for little things? I don't know. I'll find out when I get there. So this. This buck for 12 minutes into honey Light when I saw him, I typically do not get buck fever. I've taken, I want to say, eight Pope and Young bucks. It's funny, because I capped out. I've got three between in the one fit. 4. Four in the 150s, like 153 to 159. 4. I've been stuck for years, right. But every one of those bucks, I've never gotten really the shakes. Yeah. This buck I did, I wasn't thinking like, oh, I wonder if I'll get buck fever finally when this buck shows up, it just happened. And then again the second time when I'm putting up the tree stand, it just happened. Third time rolled around, cool as a cucumber. Got it. But I've just never been someone who's like, well, what if I this or what if I that? Life. Life's gonna happen by the time I get there. I'll figure it out. What I can do right now today is put all of my effort into making sure the outcome that I want is the outcome that happens. Got it? Yeah.

[Steve]

Well, man, I hope that you come out of this, whatever happens.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

I hope you come out of this with the same spirit that you have now.

[Rob Sand]

I appreciate that. I hope I do, too.

[Steve]

I'd hate to see something bad happen to you.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

I'm gonna sit there watching now on election night. I'm gonna be watching.

[Rob Sand]

All right. All right. Well, we're feeling pretty good. The only. The only poll we've seen has us up by two. But those aren't worth a whole lot. A lot's gonna happen between now and a year from now, so we'll see where it goes up by two.

[Steve]

In the primary.

[Rob Sand]

No, no, in the. For.

[Steve]

They tested.

[Rob Sand]

This is a poll that tested me versus sort of the Republican front runner or perceived front runner. Who knows who it is at the end of the day. Yeah. So. But that's, you know, worth a little bit more than the paper it's printed on at this point. We're happy to see it. We're not surprised to see it. We're just going to keep working hard every day.

[Steve]

Are your campaign signs going to be your buck photo?

[Rob Sand]

Oh, actually, I should send you. I should send you, I think, a griffin grin. I used to do. I used to do parades and I'd have my shoulder mounts hanging off the side of my truck. And my. And my, My. My sign would say, rob sand for state auditor. Bow hunter or. No, it was like, rob sand, bow hunter and state auditor. He'll find our bucks.

[Steve]

That's good.

[Rob Sand]

It was fun. It's fun. I love. We. Every. Every. Every campaign cycle, we've always had funny ads like making fun of me. Big target. You know, you don't need to be proficient for that one Big target. But if I can make people laugh, whether it's on a parade or it's a TV commercial, like that public service you asked about. Public service like that is a public service. We are living in very strange, oftentimes dark times.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

If I can give you an opportunity to put a smile on your face like, I have done a good thing.

[Steve]

That's good. Take a run.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. So, yeah, we've.

[Steve]

We'll.

[Rob Sand]

We'll probably do. I don't know if we'll do something. We haven't really talked about it, but we've done it in the past. The TV ads haven't been hunting oriented, but the. The parade floats have been.

[Steve]

I should probably ask you a couple technical hunting questions.

[Rob Sand]

Sure.

[Steve]

When you're hunting in those tight confines and you just can't have one running off. You shoot mechanicals.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, boy, do we have this. I got a long answer.

[Steve]

I don't want to hit with contentious.

[Rob Sand]

No, no.

[Steve]

I don't want to hit you with, like, the gotcha stuff.

[Rob Sand]

No, I got a long answer to this one. So I. I used to shoot fixed blade.

[Steve]

You got to take your shirt off.

[Rob Sand]

It's a little warm in here. A little warm in here. I used to shoot fixed blade.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

Then I saw this study from. What is it? Quality Deer Management association. Qdma. Yeah.

[Steve]

Good.

[Rob Sand]

And again, like, I'm a numbers guy. My. In. In college, my honors thesis was a statistical analysis on a Data set that I built with over 40, 000 data points in it.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

And so there this cute. I think it was qdma, but it was out there on the Internet. And they did this study in a permit only hunting environment, I think on a. Maybe on a military base. I'm pretty sure it was in Maryland. And they found that mechanicals gave you. Mechanicals gave you a higher recovery rate. Got it. That was all I needed again, like, I'm. I'm. I like truth. You know, I like numbers. And even though I've been shooting fixed blades, I read that I'm like, all right, now I'm shooting mechanicals.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

I switched to mechanicals, I think at the same time I switched to the deep six. Like the micro diameter arrows. Yep. And so I got these ones. I'm not going to get into brands, but.

[Steve]

Yeah, because you lose all the voters. You know, I don't shoot the other brand. I was into that sand guy and.

[Rob Sand]

Then he said he shoots rages and now I think he sucks. I was gonna go, there you go. I just don't want to. It's less about that. I did. I was not satisfied with the performance. Okay. I switched back to the same fix that I was using. Just, I. I knew they were reliable. I liked them. But then when I travel around the state, there's a few hunting archery shops I'll go into. One of them's in El Cater, Iowa. The guy that owns this guy named Dave, got to know him. You know, I'll pop in. Might only be once a year, but pop in to say hi to Dave, see what he's got, what he's got. And he gave me, he's like, you got to shoot these. Because I was telling him, you know, like. Well, I switched to mechanicals because I saw this study that says you get a better recovery rate, but it's been really frustrating. I switched to a two blade. I think the two blade, if you hit it, if your blades are not vertical, and let's say you shoot quartering away. Right. Let's say your blades are like this. You're gonna hit that deer and one is gonna flip out and the other one's not. And so all of the trajectory and the energy of your arrow is gonna twist probably. It's just not gonna get you the pass through that you want. And maybe that was the issue. But regardless of what the issue is, Dave is like, you gotta shoot these. And he hands me a pack. You want, we, we can talk brands. Grim reapers.

[Steve]

Okay.

[Rob Sand]

It's a Four blade mechanical. And four blade mechanical. Four blade mechanical. So it's just, you know, there's one that comes out on each. No collar on it, so it's like, nothing to mess around with. The ones I had had collars on them, and I didn't buy them the first year that he recommended them. I'm typically just, like, taking information, Right. But eventually I decided to buy them, man. That's all I'm shooting now.

[Steve]

That's what you shot? The 209?

[Rob Sand]

That's what I shot, the 209.

[Steve]

Not the 209. That's what you shot. 209.

[Rob Sand]

I like the 209. So, like the 409, Beach Boys.

[Steve]

Oh, yeah, the 209.

[Rob Sand]

I should rewrite my 409.

[Odoo/JBL Announcer]

Giddy up.

[Rob Sand]

Thank you. There we go. We're gonna rewrite it. My 209.

[Steve]

The problem with name and bucks. Actual names.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Is there's a story where there's two stories. Mark Canyon had a buck named Frank, and he called someone and said, I shot Frank.

[Rob Sand]

Oh, no.

[Steve]

And people can take that wrong way. And Jeff Foxworthy has that story where he had a buck named a person's name, and he told his wife, I shot. I shot Dave. Who's Dave?

[Rob Sand]

Why did you do that? Do I need to pack you a bag? Where are you right now?

[Steve]

But, yeah, I shot the 209. I'm like, yeah, that sounds like a. That's a buck.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Little split time. That's a little drop point. That's 209.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

So, yeah, I switched to these grim reapers. Every single shot. Now just max, 40 yards and drop, big exit.

[Steve]

I'll check it out.

[Rob Sand]

They're pretty good.

[Steve]

I like to argue about this with Tony Peterson.

[Rob Sand]

All right.

[Steve]

Yeah. You don't.

[Rob Sand]

I mean, no, but Colleague of ours. All right. I think it's an interesting conversation. It's one of the more interesting ones, I think, that there is in archery right now.

[Steve]

Yeah. For a while, I quit. I tried to.

[Rob Sand]

For.

[Steve]

There's a couple years when I tried to not argue about gear.

[Rob Sand]

That's just, like, not possible.

[Steve]

I know.

[Rob Sand]

Especially for you. I might be able to get away with it.

[Steve]

You know, those guys that do that, they're like. They'll say, well, it works for me.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Like, no matter. Like, I could say to you, study after study after study.

[Rob Sand]

Right.

[Steve]

Has shown that.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Steve]

Well, that's what works for me.

[Rob Sand]

Right.

[Steve]

And it just shuts. It just shuts it.

[Rob Sand]

I'm shooting field points. It works for me.

[Steve]

Yeah. And it just shuts everything down. So instead of arguing about gear, because I'll. I'll say, you know, of course my boots are the best.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve]

You know, my headlamp is the best. My buddy recently observed, you always have the best headlamp, but you always have a different headlamp.

[Rob Sand]

That's a great point. That is such a good point. That's frustrating.

[Steve]

But that's not the one that you had a week ago. That was the best.

[Rob Sand]

I'm picturing that Onion headline right now. World's worst person just made an amazing point.

[Steve]

Right.

[Rob Sand]

He's like, ah, you're right.

[Steve]

So I tried to quit. I'm back in, though, now.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve]

I'll argue about it, but I. I seriously, I wish you good luck, man.

[Rob Sand]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Steve]

Yeah, I like. I like.

[Rob Sand]

Thanks for having me.

[Steve]

I. I wanna. I like talking to people in the political space.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Who don't want to burn everything down. Yeah, whatever.

[Rob Sand]

You know, there's a great. A great line. I'm trying to remember who said it, and I can't. But any old mule can kick a barn down. It takes a carpenter to build one. Yeah.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Rob Sand]

We got a lot of building to do.

[Steve]

Yeah, we do.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

Yeah. Gluing stuff back together.

[Rob Sand]

Amen.

[Steve]

Yeah. I hope you like whatever happens in your campaign.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah.

[Steve]

You, your opponents. I hope you do that.

[Rob Sand]

And.

[Steve]

And I wish you luck. And now on that night, I'm going to be watching.

[Rob Sand]

All right. I appreciate that.

[Steve]

If we hear about Iowa all the time, because you guys vote real early and.

[Rob Sand]

That's right. That's right.

[Steve]

It'll be easy to track.

[Rob Sand]

Good. All right.

[Steve]

Rob saying Iowa.

[Rob Sand]

Yep.

[Steve]

Iowa's state auditor.

[Rob Sand]

You got it.

[Steve]

Running for the position of governor and.

[Rob Sand]

Chief whitetail bow hunter. Yeah.

[Steve]

If you're in Des Moines and you don't like hunting and you see a very large buck and you're in town there, call Rob.

[Rob Sand]

That's right.

[Steve]

Don't call anybody else. Please send photo of Buck.

[Rob Sand]

Will provide venison.

[Steve]

All right. Thank you very much.

[Rob Sand]

Yeah, yeah. Thanks.

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[Rob Sand]

Oh, boy.

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[Rob Sand]

What a matchup we got, y'. All. This is that classic HBCU vibe. Non stop action. The band is rocking and the crowd lit. Chance echo drum beat everybody showing that school pride Game like this. Yeah, it calls for an ice cold Coca Cola. Ah, crisp and refreshing. That's a game changer right there. Yeah, that taste always hits the right note. Just like a band at halftime. And just like that, we're back at it. Passionate fans, school colors everywhere and an ice cold Coca Cola.

[Steve]

That's a winning combo no matter the.

[Rob Sand]

Sport, no matter the yard. Everybody knows fan work is thirsty work. So grab a Coca Cola and keep that 8 HBCU pride going.

[Odoo/JBL Announcer]

JBL Wireless Earbuds are for those who are the first to try something unique.

[Rob Sand]

The first wireless earbuds on the market.

[Odoo/JBL Announcer]

With a touchscreen case which allows you to control your audio without reaching for your phone. They also have a touchscreen smart charging case for one touch control. I love being able to touch my.

[Rob Sand]

Buds and control the volume With a.

[Odoo/JBL Announcer]

Built in wireless transmitter that lets you.

[Rob Sand]

Plug and play with any device you want. JBL Wireless Earbuds connects you to all your favorite music, movies and games.

[Odoo/JBL Announcer]

JBL Wireless Earbuds Grab a [e-mail] this.

[Brooklyn Stevens]

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[Steve]

Guaranteed human.