Ep. 816: New Year's Resolutions, Mutant Turkeys, and Goodbye (Sort Of) Cal | MeatEater Radio Live!

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast — Ep. 816: New Year's Resolutions, Mutant Turkeys, and Goodbye (Sort Of) Cal | MeatEater Radio Live!

Date: January 2, 2026
Host: Brody Henderson
Co-Hosts: Corey Calkins, Ryan “Cal” Callahan, Phil (Podcast Engineer)
Special Guest: Dr. Phil Lavretsky

---

Overview

This episode is part New Year’s hangout, part sendoff for long-time contributor Cal (Ryan Callahan) as he takes a new role running Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and part deep-dive into the wild genetics of North America’s turkeys. Host Brody Henderson and the crew blend typical banter with insightful discussion on hunting, conservation, family, and citizen science. Special guest Dr. Phil Lavretsky shares fascinating findings (and mysteries) from his turkey DNA research, addressing the rise of “mutant” color-phased turkeys and what their genetics mean for hunters and wildlife managers alike. The team rounds out the show with heartfelt year-in-review reflections, listener questions, and a look toward new resolutions in 2026.

---

Key Segments & Insights

1. New Year’s Check-in & Current Hunting Goals

[00:59-08:00]

• Hosts share holiday plans and what’s happening at MeatEater HQ.
• Discussion of late-season hunting: deer, pheasants, ducks, elk.
• Freezer management: balancing last season’s meat with hopes for new hunts.
• Corey on managing game bag storage and running low on elk meat. Cal plans to grind sausage and get after turkeys with his son.

Notable Quote:

“I do like in my chest freezer, I do a game bag storage... That’s what I have left of my elk from last year — just a little bit of front shoulder and some neck meat for slow cooking.” — Corey Calkins [04:16]

---

2. Interview: Dr. Phil Lavretsky & The Truth About Mutant Turkeys

[08:25–42:45]

Turkey Domestication and Subspecies

[09:28–15:50]

• Dr. Lavretsky explains turkey origin: Turkeys are uniquely North American; domestication happened thousands of years ago, not in Europe.
• Domestication likely started with the Gould’s and Miriam’s turkeys, not Easterns.
• Review of the five North American subspecies (Eastern, Osceola, Rio Grande, Miriam’s, Gould’s).

Quote:

“Turkeys are a North American species...They were one of the successful domestication events by our ancestors that made it over the land bridge thousands of years ago.” — Dr. Phil Lavretsky [10:15]

Genetic Mutations & Hybridization

[15:45–26:00]

• Dr. Lavretsky discusses three main drivers for “mutant” turkey appearances:
  1. Genetic mutations (albinism, melanism, etc.).
  2. Hybridization between wild subspecies due to natural or agency-driven range overlap.
  3. Domestic ancestry— wild birds interbreeding with feral/domestic turkeys, or “heritage” breeds (hybrid wild/domestic types).
• Human manipulation: Heritage breeds are being created and sometimes released for the sake of hunting.

Quote:

“Heritage is essentially people taking a domestic bird, breeding it with a wild, creating something, and then calling it some heritage...like dog breeds.” — Dr. Phil Lavretsky [18:23]

• Survival of domestic turkeys in the wild is rare but can occur, especially with more “heritage” blood.

Critical Point:

• It’s NOT always possible to tell if a strange-colored turkey is wild, domestic-influenced, or a mere hybrid—DNA is often required.

How Common Are "Mutant" Color Turkeys?

[26:01–31:16]

• There are both wild turkeys with color mutations and heritage/domestic-origin birds with wild plumage.
• Plumage mutations can come from both wild and domestic sources; preliminary data suggests multiple genetic pathways to white/barred coloration.
• Hybrid ranges have muddied the line between subspecies in the West (the so-called “American Turkey” could become the norm).

Quote:

“Turkeys are incredibly much more complicated than ducks… the genetics is incredibly complex.” — Dr. Phil Lavretsky [22:19]

Impact of Inbreeding and Conservation Implications

[31:17–34:44]

• Both heritage/domestic birds and many wild populations are increasingly inbred.
• Introducing domestic/heritage birds to wild flocks may worsen inbreeding, threatening population health and resilience—parallels with ducks and even mammals.
• Fragmented habitat and lack of genetic exchange exacerbate these risks.

Key Insight:

“If you breed highly inbred heritage birds with wild turkeys, instead of decreasing inbreeding, you actually artificially jump the inbreeding … in the population.” — Dr. Phil Lavretsky [33:00]

Citizen Science: How to Get Involved

[39:51-42:15]

• Hunters can sign up to submit turkey and duck samples at wildturkeyDNA.com and duckdna.com.
• Field kits (vial for tissue sample collection) help the lab build a better map of wild genetics and mutation rates.

---

3. Memorable Quotes & Fun Banter

• “You could really bum out some turkey hunters … their goal is to get each [subspecies] and then they find out… ‘oh man…’” — Brody Henderson [26:04]
• “Turkey slam — the only way to get it is genetically vetted!” — Dr. Phil Lavretsky [26:20]
• On field ID: “Most of us, including myself, would be like, ‘Sweet, I got a turkey,’ and not even notice.” — Dr. Phil Lavretsky [30:12]
• “That’s what hunters bring to the table for the greater good.” — Corey Calkins [43:05]

---

4. Year-in-Review: Favorite Hunts

[44:07-56:39]

• Each host recounts favorite trips/hunts from the past year, emphasizing the experience, persistence, and the fun of being outdoors, often with family.
  • Ryan Callahan: Finally tags a huge Montana black bear after years of trying; special whitetail hunt with son.
  • Corey: Advocates for simply trying new public land spots (“my secret to success is just trying” [48:14]); celebrates a random, memorable double on wild pheasants in overlooked habitat.
  • Brody: Colorado late-season mule deer—the exhilaration of the rut and succeeding after a full day’s effort.

Quote:

“My secret to success is just trying... Once you pull the band-aid off of ‘I gotta go to the place I know,’ a whole new world opens up to you.” — Corey Calkins [48:14]

---

5. Listener Q&A: Hunters’ Ethics & Dilemmas

[56:54–60:07]

• Question from a listener struggling with a “friend” whose hunting ethics are fundamentally at odds (road hunting, head shots, cheating spouse, etc.).
• Panel gives tough love: Don’t compromise your ethics or enable illegal behavior, even if it risks social tension.

Quote:

“You’re talking about a guy who’s hunting illegally and unethically, not to mention being a cheating scumbag… just gotta cut ties.” — Brody Henderson [59:05]

---

6. Farewell (Sort Of): Cal’s New Chapter with BHA

[60:34–73:37]

• “Cal,” a beloved MeatEater team member, is now CEO of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (BHA); will still appear occasionally, but with new priorities.
• Reflects on what BHA needs and his vision: Advocating for “rank and file” outdoors people, not just wealthy donors.
• Calls out political threats to public land (specifically naming Senator Mike Lee) and the importance of vigilance and coalition-building to defend access.
• Emphasizes America’s unique public land system wasn’t an accident—citizens demanded it, and conservation is an ongoing fight.

Key Quotes:

“My dream is to have the end user of public land represented. A lot of conservation speaks only to big donors, but we’re here for the rank and file.” — Cal [63:24]
“There is nothing that we have and enjoy right now that is not here because we didn’t demand it.” — Cal [71:43]

---

7. New Year's Resolutions & Closing Reflections

[73:43-79:00]

• Ryan: Wants more time hunting with his son, especially now that he’s eight.
• Corey: “Day by day. Baby steps.” Respect for the old T-shirt fit as a weight loss barometer.
• Brody: Training for a marathon (target 3:30 in September) and keeping the hunting experience fun and about community, not antler scores.
• Overarching theme: hunting for love of the experience, protecting the future, not just trophies.

Quote:

“Focusing on fun, the experience, the people, the places… I want hunting to be like it was when I was a kid and everything was special and fun.” — Brody Henderson [77:07]

---

Other Memorable Moments

• Brody’s mild panic after thinking he lost a buck, only to find it lying dead ten feet away ([56:04]).
• Playful banter about someone possibly singing the Dude Wipes jingle—Phil (engineer) denies it, but promises to keep up with his reading (of fantasy genre, of course) as his New Year’s resolution ([80:28]).
• Cal muses, “I want to put myself out of a job as soon as possible… get everybody on board, then I can go back to swinging a hammer.” [78:08]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [08:25] – Turkey biology and domestication: Dr. Phil Lavretsky
• [15:45] – Causes of weird turkey colorations
• [22:01] – Is your “mutant” turkey wild or not?
• [31:16] – Conservation risks: inbreeding and domestic introgression
• [39:51] – How hunters can help: wildturkeyDNA.com, duckDNA.com
• [44:07] – Hosts’ favorite hunt stories of 2025
• [56:54] – Listener letter: Hunting ethics dilemma
• [60:34] – Cal’s BHA promotion and public lands talk
• [73:43] – New Year’s resolutions roundtable

---

Conclusion

This episode offers both classic MeatEater banter and some deep conservation science, blending turkey genetics, hunting ethics, and heartfelt New Year’s reflections with the bittersweet sendoff of a pivotal team member. Listeners will walk away with:

• Practical field knowledge about wild turkeys and how to spot/understand color mutations
• Moral clarity about resisting peer pressure to hunt unethically
• Renewed appreciation for the challenges and joys of hunting, family, and public land advocacy
• A call to participate in citizen science and to protect the future of America’s outdoor heritage.

To participate in wild turkey or duck genetic studies:
Wild Turkey DNA Project
Duck DNA Project

Happy New Year and happy hunting from The MeatEater Podcast Team!

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an I heart podcast.

[Brody Henderson]

Guaranteed human.

[Podcast Announcer]

Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be tied.

[Corey Calkins]

Smell us now, lady. Welcome to meat eater trivia. Meat eater podcast.

[Brody Henderson]

Happy New Year's everyone, and welcome to Radio Live. I'm your host, Brody Henderson and I'm joined by Corey Calkins and Ryan Callahan. Today we're not actually live, we're actually pre recording before Meat Eater HQ shuts down for the holidays. But we still got a great New Year's Day show for you guys. Even the poor suckers who stayed up late last night and they're nursing a hangover. Hopefully you're not one of those people, but I imagine there's a few of you out there.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Is that gonna be one of you, Cal?

[Ryan Callahan]

Corey not with kids anymore. Yeah, I'm going to bed at 8pm There you go.

[Brody Henderson]

There you go. Avoid amateur night.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's right.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, I get all my fun in early.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

And it seems to really wrap up within like a beer and a half anyway.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, that's smart. Yeah, smart. Today we're going to talk to our friend Jake Lavretsky about Phil La Gretzky. Lavretsky.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Phil.

[Brody Henderson]

Jake. Why do I. Jake's our producer who's.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Right next to Phil.

[Brody Henderson]

Jesus, Pete. I'm just reading. That's the problem with just reading a script.

[Ryan Callahan]

Sorry, Phil.

[Corey Calkins]

Dr. Phil.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Three times. Phil.

[Brody Henderson]

Guy. Not our Phil. About all those funny looking color face turkeys getting shot out there these days. We've also got a very special in house interview with Cal about why in the hell he decided to leave Meteor to go get a real job. No one really knows.

[Corey Calkins]

I didn't know that was in the script.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

All right, welcome.

[Brody Henderson]

And for our crew segments, we're gonna look back on our favorite hunts of the year. And then we're gonna look forward with some New Year's resolutions. You guys. New Year's resolution, guys.

[Ryan Callahan]

Semi. I like to think about it, but then it rarely follows all.

[Brody Henderson]

I'm going to force you into at least saying something today.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

It's a good idea.

[Brody Henderson]

Lastly, since we can't chat with you guys in real time, we're just going to go over some questions and comments that have Come up in emails in previous episodes. So we're still looking out for the fans out there before we get on to all that. Happy holidays, fellas. Yeah, I'm looking forward to the break, as I'm sure you guys are. Um, I got about a hundred pounds of meat that I need to grind in the burger and sausage. So that's a big project. And Cal and I were just talking. I'm gonna. I'm gonna try and get out with a dog for pheasants and maybe get the wife out for a late season cow elk.

[Corey Calkins]

So, yeah, that's like over the whole break kind of goal.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. You know, the. The boys want to get after. Well, one of them does. The one already shot a late season doe, so the other one has to do with his older brother. Did. So we might try that too. What do you guys got going on?

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, the meat management is high on my mind because I really want to go hunt with this muzzleloader. The timing is not.

[Brody Henderson]

You've only got two, three days left of the season. Right.

[Corey Calkins]

Right.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, Just.

[Corey Calkins]

Just this weekend. But like, I would really like to get some ducks in the freezer.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. Now that they're finally around.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Geez. Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

And just that dog work is so freaking amazing. I. I love that. But I am, I have. I do like in my chest freezer, I do a game bag storage. So like this game bag is a whole parted out.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

And back sealed. Nice elk shoulder.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Corey Calkins]

This one's like the nice cuts. And that's what I have left of my elk from last year. Is it just a little bit of front shoulder and some neck meat for slow cooking stuff. And then the kind of. Really just the loins, which is kind of crazy.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

And trying to like. I. I'm gonna be cutting it close, but it'd be like a good full freezer turnover situation if I don't kill a deer.

[Brody Henderson]

You'll be fresh after you get through this.

[Corey Calkins]

Pretty darn fresh.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. Because we got, you know, mostly two and a half antelope in there.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

And that. That were this year.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

And.

[Corey Calkins]

And then, yeah, the turkeys and pheasants.

[Brody Henderson]

But that puts some pressure on you too, not having that backup meat from the prior year, you know?

[Corey Calkins]

I know, I know. And then I think I'll need to commit to grinding some. Some stuff too. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

How about, how about you, Corey?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. Grinding between my bull and a really old whitetail buck that I shot this year. I'm going to grind all of him up.

[Brody Henderson]

Stinky old ruddy Tough ass buck.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, very funny color on him. Like real pink instead of dark red like I'm used to.

[Brody Henderson]

Really?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. Just found out I shot him here, close to Bozeman, in town, hundreds of other deer around. I was worried about CWD had him tested and just found out that it was negative. So I'm excited. I was probably gonna eat them anyway, honestly, but.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sure we've all eaten it at this point.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, that's the thing. And we're all still sitting here, but yeah, I got a lot of grinding to do.

[Brody Henderson]

And although your face looks funny is that. That's not like a cwd. This is tough for Corey because.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

What are you talking about?

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Because we've recorded. Because we recorded the live show that aired on the 18th and then in order to prep for the holiday, we filmed the show airing on Christmas and the show, this show airing on New Year's, all in the span of two days. And so every single one of those shows has a conversation about Corey's face.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

I want to say it looks better than yesterday, which would have been Christmas episode.

[Corey Calkins]

So.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, you'll have to go back if you haven't listened to the Christmas episode and find out what happened to my face. Besides the obvious.

[Brody Henderson]

You wouldn't tell me. I'll have to watch the show.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, you're gonna have to, but. And then it's turkey season still to the end of the year, so my boy and I, eight year old boy and I'd like to go out and get a bird.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Weather dependent and how the roads hold up.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, I was pheasant hunting like, I don't know, week or so ago and cut a lone gobbler track. Man, I tried to find that thing, but I couldn't.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, Roaming around somewhere.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Loving the fall, so.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. And speaking of gobblers, how's that?

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Phil, that was incredible. You're a pro. People love you when you host, bro.

[Brody Henderson]

We're gonna do our first interview today and Our guest is Dr. Phil, not Jake Lavretsky. He's a hunter, conservationist and geneticist. We've had him on the show before, so some of you guys may have seen him, if you're not familiar. He. He's got a really cool duck DMA DNA project going on where he's like figuring out the lineage of different ducks out there, whether they're hybrids, purebreds, whether there's like farm raised duck DNA and those things. And he moved on to doing a similar project called Turkey DNA, which we're going to talk about with him today. We got. Got him on the line. There he is. Thanks for joining us, Phil.

[Ryan Callahan]

Hey, Phil.

[Brody Henderson]

The whole world knows you as Jake now.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. You were just thinking about turkeys that whole time.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

What's up, Corey?

[Ryan Callahan]

How you doing, man? Look, thanks.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Happy holidays.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, happy holidays. Happy New year. Now it's January 1st.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. Yep, exactly. Phil, for folks who aren't familiar with you, just give us a quick breakdown of like your bonafides and then we'll get into the turkey DNA project you've got going on.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, yeah. So I'm a professor here at the University of Texas at El Paso. I run a wildlife genetics lab. We are geneticists, but we basically do everything else under the sun. We're out there collecting, catching, banding, bleeding, telemetry unit attaching. Working with hunters, landowners, farmers and others to figure out what's happening with our wildlife and answering the questions that our state and federal agencies partners want to know. Great. That's just.

[Brody Henderson]

So leading into this turkey DNA project. I'm not sure if everyone's aware of this. Hopefully they are, but I'm going to tell them anyway. Like, at one time, like, all turkeys were wild. There was no such thing as a domestic turkey. And then North America got colonized. They domesticated those turkeys here, brought them back to Europe, then brought them back over here. And so now things are all screwed up.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Sorta. Sort of the timeline.

[Brody Henderson]

Listen, if I got it wrong, please correct me.

[Corey Calkins]

Are you just embarrassed because he did it so well?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

I mean, man, how much did you drink last night anyway?

[Corey Calkins]

I don't drink at all.

[Brody Henderson]

That's the problem, I think.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. So sort of the timeline. So turkeys. Turkeys are a North American species. They're not. They're not European. There's no. There's no real Turk. There's no turkey lineages in Europe, New Zealand, anywhere else. They are a North American Mesoamerican group of birds that evolved here. They were one of the successful domestication events by our ancestors that made it over the land bridge thousands of years.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, I gotcha.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. So. So current ancient DNA work puts the domestication with Goulds potentially with Miriam's. Potentially two different time points between different tribes that were around at that time.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Looking at 4,000 so years ago. So turkeys were domesticated, much like cow and dogs and stuff in Europe. But they are specific to North America.

[Brody Henderson]

So like European colonists didn't come over here. Or maybe they did. Did, did. They were they grabbing those, those turkeys that had already been domesticated or were they also getting wild turkeys and domesticating them?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Are we talking about Thanksgiving? Those would have wild turkeys. The colonists would have been on the east eating easterns at that time. Right.

[Brody Henderson]

So did they also. Did they also domesticate, capture and eventually domesticate those birds?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yes, but like hundreds of years later.

[Brody Henderson]

I got you. Okay.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. Yeah. So. So really, Native Americans were the ones that had what you would consider domestic turkeys at that time.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Eventually, many, many moons later, they would be brought back to Europe. And there are. But they're not. So there's farms of turkeys. But while turkeys, as far as we know, have been brought back by the Brits primarily back to Europe and then everywhere they go. So there's. Right. So there's turkeys in New Zealand. There were no real. There were no turkeys in Hawaii, so people brought them there. So turkeys have been expanded that way, but naturally occurring only in North America. Origination of domestic only in North America and Mesoamerica.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay, before we get into the next stuff. Yeah, Real quick, North, like as is now, North American wild turkeys laid on me the five subspecies and roughly where they live without getting into how they've been spread around, like their regional kind of range.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

So if, if we'll go east to west. Right. So east of the Mississippi river where you had naturally occurring boreal forests, that would have been your eastern turkey. Once you get into the Florida Panhand, or Pan. Yeah, Florida side, that would be Osceola. What we're trying to figure out is how different Osceolas are from eastern right now. So there's the, there's those two as you go, as you go west. So west of the Mississippi, you start getting into what would originally be rios. Right. So that would be Oklahoma, Texas, Nebraska, that area. Then once you get into more mountainous.

[Brody Henderson]

Regions before you, before you move on to the next one. RIOS typically or originally were like river bottom turkeys that lived in more open country. Correct?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Right, yeah. So then you're essentially changing habitats from low elevation to higher elevation. And that's when you get to Miriams. Right. So where I go in New Mexico, that would be all the sky islands there. Right. The Gila, the Sacramento Mountains. Those would be all natural Miriam habitat. Right.

[Brody Henderson]

Into a little. Into Colorado too. Correct?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

That's right. Yeah. And then south of that. Right. Would be Goulds. So almost not. Almost all of the range in Mexico would be where Goulds turkey would have. Would have been. And that's why all the studies have suggested that they're the source for the original domestication than the Miriams. So that's what you got. Oh, and then oscillated turkeys, we're not.

[Brody Henderson]

Worried about those right now.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Talk about that.

[Brody Henderson]

That's a whole different.

[Corey Calkins]

But I feel like that is considering the advancement of civilization, like that's where the domestication had to have started. Right? Like sweet potatoes and. Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, it's still being so for sure. Like some, potentially we just don't have the fossil records and the ancient DNA to go along with it. But I'm sure some civilizations did go after the oscillated turkey. But for one reason or another, what we do have good data for is that Goulds were Goulds and Miriams and a mix of them were part, were used for the earliest domestications as far as we know here in the Southwest.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. And it just became like the cool kid trend. Yeah. It's like, well, let's follow those guys around.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

And they're bigger than oscillated. They're, you know, more, maybe more delicious. I don't know.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. All right, so we're, we're, we're getting into these like different color phases and weird pattern color patterns that show up, which is I'm sure a large part of what you're working on here. Like what's causing that.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but like we've got a few different things going on here. We got completely wild turkeys that have some type of genetic mutation like albinism or melanism. Is that, that's, that's one.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

That's one.

[Brody Henderson]

Cause then we've got breeding between wild turkey subspecies because these birds have been moved around a lot. We've got overlapping, naturally overlapping range and we've got like man made overlapping range, for example. And here in northwestern Montana you've got mariams and easterns and hybrids, like kind of all living in the same zone. And then the third thing is you've got these like quote, wild turkeys that are actually the product of some domestic ancestry. Like it could be like a, like a wild hen that rolls in behind the barn and hooks up with a domestic tom or a domestic turkey of either sex that maybe goes rogue and joins a flock of wild birds.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

That's right.

[Brody Henderson]

Are those the three like main things we're looking at here?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Those. Yeah. So we're trying to. Now originally this study was all about just asking the question of wild Turkey DNA was born out of the question. Is this a wild turkey?

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Is every white smoke face, red black turkey a wild turkey? That some weird mutation? Is it because of the hybridization between wild and wild? Is it because of wild heritage or wild domestic interbreeding? Or is it just a bunch of like domestic feral birds that are on the landscape and people are shooting them?

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

I can usually tell because it's a lazy turkey hunter or somebody who can't call very good. Where I'm like, well that's obviously got some domestic DNA in it because you, you shouldn't be able to get a.

[Ryan Callahan]

Legit like that one Randall shot this year.

[Corey Calkins]

Exactly.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, yeah, I, I, I did what I wanted to interrupt. So there is a caveat to domestic inheritage. So domestic is your white turkey that you go to Costco and buy. Right. So this is a nuance within the turkey world that I only recently learned. Heritage is essentially people taking a domestic bird, breeding it with a wild, creating some thing and then creating, calling it some heritage. Think of it like, I guess back to ducks. There's a bunch of different duck breeds that people have done. Right, dog breeds. Right. So it's, it's mixing dog pools. Especially when people do dog wolf and then create some weird looking thing and then breed that a bunch of.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, they get a tattoo. Yeah, yeah, same old story.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

That's that. So that's the caveat. So we are looking at like, is it a bunch of heritage breeds, is a bunch of domestic breeds? What's occurring, what happens?

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, it's cool. And as far as like the domestic birds go, like I spent some time around those things. We raised a few every year when I was a kid and they're stupid and they're like not very athletic. So it's like looking at, back at those birds, it's like really hard for me to imagine one of those things just being like, you know what, I'm going with those guys and I'm going to live in the woods with them and like that they survived long enough to like pass on their genes. Like I know like domestic pigs can go feral like pretty rapidly, but it's like, it's like how adaptable are domestic turkeys to surviving in the wild?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Well, that's a great, we don't know and I wouldn't have guessed it, but I will give you two caveats to that.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

One, remember what I said? Heritage breeds are technically wild domestic parents. So maybe that gives them a bit, a bit up and coming that they're like, oh, there's something in some of them being like, I want to be wild a little bit.

[Corey Calkins]

Right.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

The other thing that's happening on the landscape, unfortunately is that there are tales of people now creating breeds. Like there's an eastern heritage that looks like an eastern, but it's not a wild bird.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

And people are. And I've, I've heard through the grapevine people are breeding things that look like osceolas and other things and putting those on the landscape during, Right before hunting season for everybody can envision that picture. So now you got birds in the spring, so now you, they only have to really survive for, for not very long to have that breeding experience.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep, yep. In the waters out there.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. So unfortunately people are doing what people do and, and you know, once there's a dollar to be made, people do all sorts of things.

[Brody Henderson]

This might be too big of a question. You might not, not be able to really get at it. But based on the evidence that you're seeing, the DNA evidence, what seems to be more common when one of these weird color face birds show up, is it like truly wild birds or is it more birds showing up with some barnyard heritage?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

It's a mix of both. So there's. So in fact, I had an email exchange with Mike Chamberlain today where I sent him the most recent results and he's like, there's still a bunch of white birds that you're calling people pure wild. And then there's a bunch of. And then there's plenty of white birds and smoke faced birds that are completely heritage. And then there's, you know, stuff in the in between. The answer to that is I don't know. Yeah, we went, went into this thing thinking like, ah, this shouldn't be that hard. But turkeys are incredibly much more complicated than ducks and waterfowl more generally and probably most wildlife for a variety of reasons, their genetics is incredibly complex and that is muddying the water even further. So we are trying to build up the data sets big enough where we could be more certain about like, what are we looking at? Are we really looking at a wild bird that's not white? And if so, why is that? Yeah, one of the things that we're trying to do is I've got a new student that has identified most of the genes responsible for plumage. And so what we're going to layer on is the genotypes of those specific genes and what we're fight super preliminary, but there are at least two ways for a bird to be white. There are these two Genes that if you knock them out, you have a white bird. If you partially knock them out, you'll have white barring. Right. So now we're trying to figure out how often or how frequent is that are those found in wild populations, how frequent are those introduced from heritage or domestic birds and how quickly does that disappear from the population.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

You shoot a weird looking bird, what is the probability that that's A, a wild bird and B, how much of a unicorn is that?

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, I imagine too. I mean there's a lot of states now, Nebraska, Montana, you know, you, I'm sure you could name Washington where like California, Utah, Idaho. Yeah, like we're like, you could go out in Nebraska and potentially in the same area run into Mariam's, Rios and Easterns, like, like all within spitting distance of one another or, or at least.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Things that look like that.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

One of the things that we're sort of gauging now, places like California, Washington, Idaho, Montana, like you talked about Oregon, where, where agencies at the time were like, you know what, we're not gonna, we're not, we don't know what's gonna take. So we're just gonna put all the subspecies into there. Right. So what do we have left? Are, are there any actual populations representing true rios, Miriams or Easterns or do we just have what potentially what we're going to coin as the American turkey?

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

So we're, we're. Wild turkey DNA is expanding substantially this year. So we're not. Initially it was all about weird looking birds. Now we're trying to get geography. Yeah, right. So if you are getting your gobble on this spring or thinking about it, we're going to have. Wild turkey DNA is going to start doing a draw much like duck DNA has been doing for the last few years where if you get drawn, you get a kit, you have some vials in there, instructions, and if you shoot a bird you can cut off that tip of the tongue, put it into there, ship it back to us. We're going to do our thing. You'll get a certificate for that bird and then we're going to start compiling data sets hopefully to answer many of these questions.

[Brody Henderson]

You could eat that whole project. You could really bum out some turkey hunters that are like, their goal is to get each subspecies and then they find out, they're like oh man, I.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Was actually, I was actually thinking the same thing, you know, turkey slam. The only way to get true turkey slam is that you actually got genetically vetted.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Eastern ghouls Otherwise, not the mudslam.

[Brody Henderson]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. I can't wait to go to national Wild Turkey Federation convention and be like, are they peer reviewed? Really? Really?

[Brody Henderson]

Phil, you want to pull some pictures up? I was talking to Phil the engineer. Now I'm talking to Dr. Phil. What are the most like common and easily identified color phases that a turkey hunter is like likely to shoot or might shoot?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

You know, when I was thinking of this question, I phoned, I phoned a friend, Mike Chickie, with our wild turkey DNA and tried to figure that out because I'm only now looking at turkeys. Right. You've got a duck guy expanding into the edible domain here. So I'm only. I didn't know that this was even happening in turkeys until a year ago. So some of the most common would be what you're looking here, that reddish, that red phase, there's a bunch of. Oh, this is something I wanted to, I wanted to say. So just like a black lab can actually make all phases of lab. Right. So you can have yellows and you can, you can have chocolate and black come out of a black lab. All heritage breeds, some proportion of them also can make white turkeys, right? Yep, they all have it. And so people are just maintaining these different color forms by, by that selective breeding. Anyways, I just wanted to put that out there.

[Brody Henderson]

No, that's good info itself.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Could be why we're seeing more and more white turkeys out there.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Again, we'll be able to source because the mutations that occurred in the heritage and domestics to result in white type, it is what it looks like quite different than what we see in wild population just naturally occurring. So we'll hopefully be able to actually track that. But right there, what you see right there. So that white and black, barring that interchange. Right. I think that breed is supposed to be known as like a narrative. We see that quite often. And that's what I told you there. If there's two genes, one gene says barring, the other one is a melanin production G that sets turn on or off. So that's how you get. Barring where you get on, off, on off plus barring. So that's what you're seeing in that turkey right there.

[Brody Henderson]

Phil, can you go back to that last one you had up?

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Yeah, sure.

[Brody Henderson]

Maybe that. So that there's a red one, I'm guessing.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. So that would be what is known as like a color phase. Red. There's, there's, there's turkeys, if you look them up, they're called barnyard reds. People have made all sorts of stuff. Yeah, but yeah, that would be one of the things. The other more readily observed are called smoke phase. I don't know if you've got a picture.

[Brody Henderson]

We got a gray one up there, Phil.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

I can add it really quick. It'll just be a second.

[Brody Henderson]

Well, yeah, just throw it up there when you get to it. So those are kind of the big, big ones. Phil. What? But you got like. I've seen some of the stuff you guys have posted on Instagram. Some of this stuff is like very subtle. Like, I don't like if you're just out hunting and not paying attention, like, you might not even notice it.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Absolutely. Yeah. No, I mean, it takes Mike Chamberlain, who, you know, looks at these things every single day. Be like, oh, that one feather is not right. You're right. Most of us, including myself, would be like, sweet, I got a turkey.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

But yeah, no, as we're learning more, what we're hoping to do also is to create some field guides where we start showcasing so people can actually start learning about it as we learn it. And we figure this stuff out and get this in the hands of both agency and private individuals out there so we can better potentially monitor some of these populations. One of the things that. One of the things that we're worried about in through these introductions of heritage or domestic birds on the landscape is that what we're finding in heritage and domestic when we have reference set is that they're incredibly inbred. Every single one looks like a brother, sister. Right. Full siblings. And then what's happening on the landscape is our natural populations through fragment habitat fragmentation, translocations, all of these other things also are not, are, are highly. Are more inbred than other wild populations I study, including mammals and other birds.

[Advertisement Voice]

Wow.

[Brody Henderson]

Is there some concern that that could be. I mean, it's probably more habitat driven and I'm sure Mike Chamberlain could weigh in here. But is there some concern that also be at least a minor driver and where you're seeing turkey population decline?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

So as you up that inbreeding coefficient, what we know from every other animal, Pumas or Florida panthers are a great example of it. You lose that, that connectivity to other populations. More and more of them breed amongst brothers and sisters. You increase that inbreeding. What's happening is that even if you had all the habitat in the world, the individuals that you have now are making eggs that are either inviolable or individuals that have lower survival because they're inbreeding so high. So turkeys also don't like to cross the road, apparently. Like. Right. So ducks will fly across the road, but turkeys don't. So as you get more and more of that fragmentation. Bigger issue in the east than in the west, you. You basically force the population to become more and more inbred. And as you put. So let's say you're.

[Corey Calkins]

You're creating artificial islands, the island population.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

And then if you throw a bunch of highly inbred heritage birds into there, what we show genetically is that if you breed those two birds together, instead of decreasing inbreeding, you actually artificially jump the inbreeding. Whoa. Between the birds. So a nest that should have been outbred, meaning, you know, good to go, you artificially already spike it up. And turkeys aren't the only ones. We're seeing the same pattern. We're seeing it in our ducks when, when game farm mallards and wild mallards interbred. Interbreed, you should have an inbreeding coefficient of 0, but it jumps to 0.2 within the clutch. So you're artificially inbreeding your own population through those actions.

[Brody Henderson]

That's no good.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, a cyclical effects, especially for turkeys that have a hard time with habitat connect and population connectivity.

[Corey Calkins]

Would you mind, because you guys just got some. Some good ink on the genetic depth in the eastern mallards. Would you mind just hitting that real quick like an update for everybody on. On the percentage of domestic DNA within your. And I'll. I'll buzz kill this.

[Brody Henderson]

Was there a map that got post. Did you see the map?

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Within your quote, wild population.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. So. So basically, yeah, basically I need an hour to talk right now, but so what we're doing right, so duck DNA was what we started with in the wildlife world being like, all right, does citizen science at this level with hunters work? And the answer is overwhelmingly yes. We're in our third year. We've doubled the participation, doubled the number of samples every year. Thankful. Thankful to all the donors that provided the funding necessary for that. And essentially we're over almost 3,000 samples collected in three years. And one of those, one of the aims of that study is to monitor the populate mallard populations across north across the U.S. for now, we're about to get Canada into the mix. But across north across the US for now. And what we've seen, what we've tracked is that the eastern population is not doing great and it continues to get worse and worse. And so during the fall flight, when You've got an influx of birds out of Canada which are mostly wild. You have 75% of harvested birds from duck DNA. And we have got other data that support this even more in the Atlantic Flyway are feral or feral hybrids. And when we look at summer birds and my other work working with the state agencies, that proportion actually jumps to like 100% or even less than 2% for most of the states. And so 75% there, we jumped down to about 40, 40% on average. In the Mississippi, huge amount of game farm mallard ancestry. In the Great Lakes region, less so. If you go south of Tennessee, there's this interesting population dynamic going on there. You jump to the Central Flyway and essentially disappears less than 10%. You jump over to the Pacific Flyway and it jumps back up, unfortunately to 20%, mostly driven by whatever's happening in California.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep, yep. Wow.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. So we're tracking this thing and unfortunately for the, for the wild Maller, it continues to be quite the problem. And we're hoping, we're starting to try to figure out some solutions, but obviously everybody always asks like, so they're interbreeding. Is there any sort of actual biological problem with that? And in the next year we'll be putting out papers showcasing that not only does it change their migratory capacity, their feeding behavior, their ability to nest, but in fact we showcase that their brains have actually been changed to be more domestic like than they are wild type when you interbreed. And all of these traits have a correlation with genetics. So the more game farm you have, the more game farming you look. Like the problem with the Atlantic Flyway that we're starting to see, or at least now we can analyze, is that we randomly now get a game farm mallard phenotype and behavior just by chance. There's so many hybrids that some proportion of nests just by chance recapitulate game farm all of a sudden, which is just not great.

[Corey Calkins]

No, I mean, that's why all those fellows who, you know, can't blow a duck call are posting all those pictures of limits.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, that's right.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. And there's like, we're not getting what, you know, me, as a big duck eater would call like the benefits of having some domestic strain in there. Like, yeah, like, yeah.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

And I will tell you so people will be like, oh, no, yeah, whatever. Ducks. A duck, I'll eat that. Fun fact. They don't put on fat Super Mary fat content the way a wild type. That's why they can't. They can't. We've published this now and we were like, why can't they move? Maybe they don't know how, maybe there's some weird thing happening. But one of the physiological differences is that even if we put them on high fat per unit child, they will not put fat.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, I feel like if we were in like the doctor who, you know, like bomb shelter, the DEFCON level for me would have just, just raised. I'm like, yeah, my God, there's a real issue here. Like fatty ducks are like the, the most prized possession in my freezer.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. And, and if you don't have a fat duck, when that polar vortex happens, that duck doesn't make it. And the more of your population proportionally grows with those types of traits, the lower the survival and the fecundity or baby making we expect. And that is what we're seeing in the Great Lakes. We're seeing in the Atlantic Flyways. So what I have to caveat all of this, it's all suggestive. It's at least explaining some of the population declines.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

We don't. A habitat is definitely everything. But even like, just like the turkey, you need a, you need an animal that knows how to use that habitat.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. All right, we gotta keep moving here.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. The human responsibility thing here is really like once again a factor.

[Brody Henderson]

Phil, how can folks take part in the turkey and. Or duck DNA projects?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, yeah, please. If you're interested. Oh, if you're still duck hunting, like how. And you shoot something super awesomely cool or you're like, I don't know what this is. Both duck and goose. Go to www.duckdna.com and sign up for the hybrid kit. If you get chosen, we'll send you a single vial kit. You send it back to us, we do the analysis, you get some answers.

[Brody Henderson]

Do we get a little favoritism there? Like, can you send us a bunch of those?

[Corey Calkins]

Come on. I think Corinne got a bunch of them.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, well, I talked to Corinne.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. But we could definitely send you some. That being said, on the turkey, go to wildturkey DNA.com start signing up. We're going to have those polls right before turkey season. That being said, if you do shoot a turkey during, if you have a fall hunting season like you guys do for a few more days and, and Idaho and others, and you shoot something, give us a, a ring or an email through the website or get in touch at wildturkey DNA on Instagram or @duckduckdna, the DuckDNA on Instagram or at Lavretsky Lab on Instagram and we'll take care of you.

[Brody Henderson]

I, I got one more question about that. Especially for the people who might end up with one of these kits, it doesn't have to be some weird looking bird. Correct. Like anything. Like it could look like a, like just pure white tail fan marams. And you still want to start?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah. So for turkeys this year we're looking for geography. We're also part of the selection criteria is where do you hunt, how many birds do you usually harvest? Those are going to be some of the information that we're going to want to know. If you are a person that has access to, you know, three tags, we'll send you three vials. If you're someone that shoots one bird, we'll send you one vial. So we're going to gauge that so that way we can get as many hunters involved and as much of the geography captured as we can. This year for sure.

[Brody Henderson]

Great.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

And this year for sure, if you're like my kid shot a bird, send that thing in.

[Brody Henderson]

Cool.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, yeah, It'd be super awesome.

[Brody Henderson]

Thanks for joining us, Phil. It's always a fascinating conversation. And on a side note, I'm looking forward to heading down to Texas. Corey, you're going to.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep.

[Brody Henderson]

For a collaboration Meat Eater has going on with you involving Audad, which the audience I'm sure will be hearing more about later. So we're looking forward to that.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

I thought we were just doing birds.

[Brody Henderson]

No, no, no, we're doing, doing now, dad too. But thanks a lot. Happy holidays and thanks for coming on.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah, thanks everybody.

[Corey Calkins]

Very cool.

[Ryan Callahan]

Happy New Year, Phil.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Happy New Year.

[Brody Henderson]

Okay, folks, that's it for today's show.

[Corey Calkins]

That was awesome. I mean, come on. That's great. Citizen science.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

That was good. You might have to trim some of these listener questions, but that was a good.

[Brody Henderson]

That's cool. We can do that, Phil. We can skip them. Maybe just do one each or something.

[Corey Calkins]

Well, it's like, it's, it's part of like what hunters bring to the table for the greater good.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. And when you get a chance to talk to someone like that, it's just like, I got another question, I got another question. Like you don't get a chance to talk to people like that very often. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Some of the other critters that he loved to dive into with other DNA, you know, he's got duck and turkey going. There's other.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Things he's got in his head that he wants to pull off here for sure. So hopefully there's more, more to come.

[Brody Henderson]

Do we got a Throwback Thursday song filler. Did you just abandon all the. All that?

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

No, I still. I still do the drops.

[Ryan Callahan]

Isn't that your favorite one?

[Brody Henderson]

Let's do the drop. This is my favorite one.

[Corey Calkins]

Throw back.

[Brody Henderson]

I can't believe it. Did I mention Steven Brody are old as. I need you to fill out the whole song. I want all the lyrics.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Oh, yeah, that'll be my. My winter break project. Sure.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, guys, it's time to look back at the last year and. And share your favorite. I. I think it's. I'm doing hunting. Could be fishing, but I don't know what you guys are doing. Share your favorite trips of the year. So, Corey, you're up first, man.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, well, gosh, it was hard to top my spring black bear hunt. I think I got a video up there, Phil, and a couple photos. But hunting a spot. The best part about it was I've been hunting the spot for about five years without being able to take aim and shoot at a black bear. And finally it all came together this last spring, early May, solo hunting overnight. Backpacked into a spot bruiser spotted him the night before, put a stock on him. He eluded me. He zigged and I zagged and then was able to dig him up the next morning. Stocked him. I spotted him at probably a mile and a half away and then stocked into 90 yards and shot him on the run with a.300 wind mag, which rarely happens. I feel like spot and stock bears, you see him far off and you're like, oh, yeah, it looks like he's headed that way. You know, they usually go a different direction or something. The odds of, like, lining up the planets to get them within range are so slim. It's so tough, but so addicting, too. And I got lucky with this one. I couldn't tell he was that big from that far away, but holy cow, It'll be probably the biggest bear I ever kill in the state of Montana, at least. And fun note. I just got the hide back from Mr. John Hayes, and he told me that was the biggest Montana black bear that's ever come through his shot really ever.

[Brody Henderson]

Just pat.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

What did.

[Corey Calkins]

Wow, that's great.

[Brody Henderson]

With this, the skull measure, when it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Was green, it was just under 20 inches. I haven't measured it since. Since I boiled it.

[Brody Henderson]

So were you by yourself?

[Ryan Callahan]

And then a buddy helped me pack it out.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, that's what I can say. If you had to pack.

[Ryan Callahan]

Even the two of us. It was brutal. And it was hot, too. It was like 70 plus degrees. That hide and head was insanely awkward and heavy to pack out. Had to cross creek multiple times.

[Brody Henderson]

So you got him rugged.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's just the hide right now. Thinking about getting.

[Brody Henderson]

Eventually you get rugged.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. That's not. Those are good things to hang on. Do you have a place to like hang it or throw it in the house?

[Ryan Callahan]

In my office at the moment.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh ok. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right upstairs. It looks pretty good up there next to my mountain line.

[Brody Henderson]

Sweet.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Got a couple more here Cory.

[Ryan Callahan]

I got one more just. It was hard to pick out of the two. Got to kill a whitetail buck and a doe with my son this year. It was alongside with me. It was really fun. Got some private land access not too far from home here. I don't think I would have got the access if I said I'm hunting by myself. But I said I was bringing my 7 year old boy along and was like heck yeah, bring him in. And we shot a doe out of a blind within the first couple minutes and the landowner said if you see this super old unicorn buck dragging his feet around you should shoot him because he's probably not going to make it through the winter. And as we were dragging out the doe that buck came out of the out of the cottonwoods and we got him too. So doubled up within a about an hour of hunting.

[Brody Henderson]

So he literally just had the one horn on the one side.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's a tiny little nub on the other side.

[Brody Henderson]

That thing have any teeth left in its head?

[Ryan Callahan]

Barely. No. I'm dying to see how old he is. Send him in to get CW tested.

[Corey Calkins]

Well did you send in a tooth to the lab here?

[Ryan Callahan]

It takes about eight months though. So we'll find out. Yeah, more to come on that one. But that was pretty special to have.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

My son there with me.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Cool. Cal, what do you got for us?

[Corey Calkins]

That eight month waiting period for old Marshall is going to be tough.

[Brody Henderson]

I know he's already forgot but that book probably Olarnias. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Very possible.

[Brody Henderson]

Easily.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

I'm hoping.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. I'm guessing eight or nine.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, could be ten. I. I had a great hunting adventures this year. Obviously there's a big brown bear in Alaska which was great but we talked about that a bunch and I just wanted to hit since we're coming to the end of the season. I get is depressing but I get a lot of people who write in and tell me how bad hunting is. I was not.

[Brody Henderson]

There's no animals anywhere. Too many people and why bother.

[Corey Calkins]

I spend the vast, vast, vast majority of my time on public land.

[Brody Henderson]

You mean you and me both.

[Corey Calkins]

And my secret to success is just trying. Like that's all the all like, it's that simple. I see spots that I've never hunted before and I just go, yep, probably nothing here, but we're going to give it a shot. Y And that's just once you pull the band aid off of like, well, I got to go to the place that I know. A whole new world opens up to you. And you know, if a bunch of people dump into your spot and your choices of finding something new or pissing and moaning and yeah, go find something new. Go ruin somebody else's spot.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, that's the thing, man. Like, if you're griping about too many trucks at the trailhead and you're parked there, guess what those other people are doing Griping about your truck being there, no doubt.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. So this, this picture that Phil's going to pop up is from one of these times where I was driving. It was getting close to end of shooting light is a cold, snowy day. And here I'm looking at this river bottom or creek bottom and I'm like, dang, that's good looking pheasant. Wish some lucky son of a gun go out there and, you know, knock on a door maybe, I don't know. And there's this little chunk of public land that attaches to the highway. Just this place where you'd be like, there's no way there's any birds here at this point in the season. Maybe opening day type of thing. But swung off, grabbed the dog and Snort and I at a very fast pace went to go check this place out and cut a pheasant track. We followed it and all of a sudden, like, I was so surprised, I did everything I could not to shoot this bird because like I had the gun over my shoulder, was just like not in the game at all. And just barely caught this. This rooster that snort had flushed flying over the hillside and was lucky enough to to get him. And I celebrated the moment in a very unserious pheasant hunting way by taking a picture of the dog and being like, God, how cool is this? And then we flushed another rooster right after this, after talking and taking pictures and laughing and obviously that shotgun going off and 50 yards later flushed another rooster. Got that bird because I was prepared. And then we walked in serpentine fashion five more miles. Never found another pheasant track at all. So we were just the right place at the right time. And it never would have happened had we not just tried something new.

[Brody Henderson]

Amen, Cal. Amen.

[Ryan Callahan]

Spot that maybe was overlooked days before, you know?

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, exactly. So. And it's just. Yeah, like, those two birds are way better than shooting a limit of birds on, like, it would have been a win to go out there and flush a bird.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Corey Calkins]

Right. So cool. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Guess that leaves me. My favorite hunt of the year is always going to be, like, the youth deer hunt with all. All the kids and all the family. But, like, I also like to get in, you know, a solo hunt now and then, and this year we got. We got it going. Phil. This year I. I drew a Colorado mule deer buck tag, and it was in November, and for anyone who's. Who's never experienced a really good mule deer rut hunt, it's. It's pretty special. During a typical whitetail rut hunt, especially if you're archery hunting in the woods, you usually only get to experience it in, like, flashes, right? Like, here comes a buck chasing a doe, and then he's gone. But in, like, more open mule deer country, like, when the rut's going, like, you just, like, kick back and watch the show. And it's amazing, like, just watching bucks push does. Watching bucks push other bucks around. And. And that's what this day. Well, that's what happened on this day. We. We just, like, hit it, right? That's my buddy Dan. And, like, pretty much from first light on, we were looking at ready bucks cruising around solo or looking for does or bucks that were chasing does. And Dan killed this buck like, maybe an hour after shooting light started. We'd already glassed up two other bucks, and we're like, which one should we go after? How should we go after them? And then that buck, like, is just, like, there in front of us, 200 yards away. And. And Dan was like, yeah, man, I'll shoot that one. So he killed that buck. We got him cut up and. And stuff that meet up in a juniper and kept hunting all day and pretty much all day long. We were, like, looking at bucks was, like, amazing. Like, it was a warm day. Like, it was cold here in the morning, but warm day, but didn't matter. There's still, like, deer out bucks looking at does all day long. And I guess about it would have been about, like an hour and a half before dark. I found this buck, glassed him up. And that. That deer was. That buck was, like, obvious. You got the picture, Phil. There he is. Like, that buck was like. Like, he's not a big scoring buck, but, like, he was the freaking man. Like, he had all the does. He was chasing other bu around, keeping them away from those does. And, like, after watching him for an hour, I'm like, yeah, he's the one. And part of the thing that. That gets me going, like, on whether I'm gonna shoot a buck or not, is not necessarily the antlers. It's like, when you're looking at a buck that's twice the size of the does that he's hanging out with, like, literally twice the size. Like, you're looking at a good one, no matter what his antlers look like. And that was this buck. So ended up doing a pretty steep downhill. Stock Got to 400 yards, ran out of COVID and shot him and killed him. It was cool because the deer never knew I was there, and I killed him instantly. But we walked. Like, I had a good landmark on what. Like, that deer just disappeared out of the scope. And when I asked Dan what happened, he's like, I don't know. I blinked when he shot, and the deer's just not there.

[Corey Calkins]

And you're like, that's not your job.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

So we get down there, and it's like, getting on towards dark. And I'm like, he was right in front of. There was, like, a lone pinion pine. It was like he was standing right in front of that. Get down there. I'm like, man, not a track, no blood, no hair. And, like, you start panicking, you know, because I'm like, if he ran, he ran this way, went down that way. No tracks, no hair. And I'm like, I'll fully admit, like, I started swearing. I'm like, dan, what? What? The job one. And then I go back to where I'm like, this is where he was standing. And, like, I don't know why I didn't do it earlier, but I turned my head to the right. He's like, 10ft away. The dead or the door now, like.

[Corey Calkins]

And then you're like, I am too old to let panic drive my decision making.

[Brody Henderson]

Exactly. But it was a long day, man. Like, well before dark to well after dark. A lot of miles, big packouts, and it was just a great hunt.

[Corey Calkins]

Heck, yeah, man. Beautiful buck. Super cool.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, you can see the fat rolls on them.

[Brody Henderson]

Just, oh, yeah. Shank looks those like those colorado bucks that can spend the summer up above tree line and then migrate down to good winter range. Like, they're huge. They're huge deer. Like, you know, two inches of fat on the back. Like, pushing 300 pounds, I'm guessing.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

So yeah, that was. That was a real good hunt this year, I guess. Phil, do you just want to, like, how much. How much time?

[Corey Calkins]

Up to you, Brody.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

I mean, we're. We're almost at an hour right now.

[Brody Henderson]

So let's just do this first one. Just.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

You can cherry pick some questions.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, we'll do. We'll just do one. We're gonna do a little fan Q A section in lieu of the live chat with our listeners. And this one, the guy's name is AJ I forget his last name. He sent in an email. It's a little long, but it's pretty juicy, so. So bear with me. I'm going to read it. My wife's college roommate is married to a guy who asked to go deer hunting with me every season. On paper, it should be perfect. He lives near great public land, our kids get along, and it's become an annual trip north to visit them. The problem is, his idea of hunting couldn't be further from mine. He road hunts almost exclusively, shoots deer from the chuck target, spawns on purpose, and only takes head shots. I've made it clear I won't shoot from the road or hunt that way.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

You.

[Brody Henderson]

Even so, he insists on helping me get one. He pressures me to stay in the truck and keeps telling me I don't need to unload my gun when we get in the truck. If I say I want to hunt alone, he takes it personally. I end up spending most of the weekend riding around instead of actually hunting. This is where it gets real good.

[Corey Calkins]

There's more.

[Brody Henderson]

To complicate things further, my wife already dislikes him due to him cheating on his wife shortly after they were married. I don't want to interfere with my wife's friendship with her former roommate, but we're both on the same page that we don't like him. Yada, yada.

[Corey Calkins]

They're curious to know what the question is.

[Ryan Callahan]

Heavy yada.

[Brody Henderson]

So my question is, how do you handle someone whose ethics fundamentally clash with yours, especially when family and friends are involved? What's the line between being polite and enabling behavior that gives hunting a bad name? Man, like, I understand the dilemma of, like, the wife friendship here, but other than that, this is, like, very simple. You're talking about a guy who's hunting illegally and unethically, not to mention being a cheating scumbag. So, like, you just gotta cut ties and not worry about being polite. I don't know if you guys have anything more to add, but, like, that.

[Corey Calkins]

One seems pretty cut and dry.

[Brody Henderson]

The email. He's basically Trying to convince himself that this what's. What is what he needs to do. I think, like, he's talking himself through it and just needs, like, gentle push to be like, no more.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, there's your push.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. So aj, like, get rid of him.

[Corey Calkins]

Don't get drugged down, buddy.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like you. You, like, you already have some good morals and ethics around hunting and it's just like, not worth being around that guy.

[Corey Calkins]

I will say the only defensible thing here is there's nothing wrong with shooting fonts.

[Brody Henderson]

No, there's nothing wrong with shooting fawns. But, you know, if you're doing it leaning out of a truck, running truck, then. Then it's a problem.

[Corey Calkins]

Yes.

[Brody Henderson]

So, yeah, I didn't figure you guys would. Would have a whole lot to say, but I felt like AJ really needed a friendly push in the right direction.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. Nowhere to go but up, buddy.

[Brody Henderson]

We're going to do another one, Phil.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. Okay.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

And also I do think just partially because Nick already made the thumbnail and the title stone, I think it'd be good if we hit on just some brief New Year's resolutions.

[Brody Henderson]

Oh, yeah, we're going to do that.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Okay, great.

[Brody Henderson]

That, that. Yeah, we'll get there. We can. Let's move on. All right. We, we. Because we're. We're using up a lot of time, we're going to do our Cal interview. Is that good, Phil? Can we move on?

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Brody Henderson]

All right. Okay. For our next interview, we've got our very own Cal the conservation man Callahan. As. As most of you hopefully know, Cal is officially the new CEO of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. He's going to continue doing some Cal stuff for Meat Eater on a part time basis, but he's going to have his hands full at bha and this may be his last appearance on Radio Live. So this whole thing is kind of like a bittersweet farewell. Cal, first off, congratulations. Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, thank you.

[Brody Henderson]

I don't think BHA could have chosen a better person for the job than you. But I gotta know, does that like that CEO title making you a little nervous?

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, my God. The things I don't know, you know, like, that's not the. There's no motivation there to be a CEO. There's a lot of motivation to just like fully embrace the things that I. That. That motivate me.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. Right. And a whole bunch of other people.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. And this. Yeah. I was asked would be like the simplest way, like.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

Why'd you do It. Well, they asked. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Right. Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

And so I'm, I'm very, very excited. Yeah. And I'm just like, gung ho to like, be able to just like, fully embrace, you know, this big thing that's been a big part of my life that I've kind of been like, moonlighting in for a long time as, As a volunteer.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

So super stoked there. And then. Yeah. The meat eater side of things is going, you know, to continue hosting the podcast, doing some, some video work and, you know, that's going to be like a supportive role.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Which is pretty darn amazing to be able to do that.

[Brody Henderson]

So cool. Can we expect anything different from BHA with, with you leading them?

[Corey Calkins]

I, you know, that's an interesting question. So it's a, it's a membership, chapter model, nonpartisan organization. I think the need in the conservation space is like, true representation of, you know, like, folks like us in this room. Right. Like, a lot of conservation is the speak is aimed at folks with, with big money and deep pockets that want to give. And like, we definitely need some of that.

[Brody Henderson]

Sure.

[Corey Calkins]

But the goal, my dream is to have like, you know, the rank and file folks that go out and do this stuff. The end user of public lands.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

You know, represented. Well, we're in a lot of conservation pickles right now because it's like, I swear to God, people at the very top are working off of like, public land theory. Well, we've been told.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Corey Calkins]

You people like these things, right?

[Brody Henderson]

Well, let's, let's get into those people at the top. I want to read you a quote from an article that popped up in my feed this morning. Earlier this year, Utah Senator Mike Lee's efforts to slip permission for federal land sell off into a Senate Republican's budget reconcile reconciliation bill failed after outraged citizens forced him to withdraw the proposal. On Monday, December 15, Lee launched another gambit to sell or transfer your public lands to private interests by adding amendments to the Department of Defense Appropriations act, which the US Senate is now considering. Lee's ploy is disguised by complex legal le. But if it is adopted, the effect would be to eliminate the legal language that requires the Department of the Interior to protect public lands, national parks, historic trails, wild and scenic rivers, et cetera, et cetera. I imagine you're going to be spending a little more time in Washington, D.C. so if you were to run into Senator Mike Lee in a bar, what would you say to him?

[Corey Calkins]

I would say thank you for putting together such a perfectly public list of working against the wishes and best interests of the American people. It's like he's writing his own resignation letter. It's like if you're dealing with a bad employee because of all the laws of protecting employees with employers and things like that, it can be kind of hard to fire people for cause.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

But it shouldn't be.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

And this guy's like, I'd say like, thank you.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Senator, like, you are an obstinate employee that has gone rogue and you are publicly working against the best interest of the American people.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Thank you for filling out the paperwork for us. Really.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

And so like what's. And I don't know if you guys could like hear my phone blowing up, but it's over. What is going on right now. And it is this, you know, it's complicated, like back door dealing where he submitted amendments at like the very much 11th hour to this appropriations process that was largely getting wrapped up.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

So again, he's not making friends with a bunch of people.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. Probably even people in his own party are like, really?

[Corey Calkins]

Again, the people within his own party, the people within the committees that he works on. Like, he is just working against people. Like, nothing's ever easy.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Because like if, if there's a compliment I can give, this guy is like, he's a zealot. Like, he's, he truly believes beyond the wishes of anybody that we shouldn't own public land. We shouldn't have public land. We shouldn't have the freedoms that we get to enjoy on public land. Why that is, we, we will likely never know.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

But. And it is just, it's just like this death of a thousand cuts, like type of thing. Well, if I can get a little win here with this amendment change and then that'll stack up to this other little win and this other little win and it's just going to be easier because the other thing that he's doing right now. Right. Is there's like 20 or 25 acres in Brian Head, Utah, that the little municipality there, Brian Head, would love to use this public land for the municipality. There's all these systems in place where we, the American people can facilitate that. Right. We can lease that land to the municipality and retain ownership and then we, the American people get to use those lease fees for the maintenance.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Or, or creating new public land.

[Brody Henderson]

Do a land swap or something.

[Corey Calkins]

There's a land swap. There's the sale through the Federal and Policy Management act where the revenue from that sale gets used to get public land of higher value. All these things that are within the Congress of the United States.

[Brody Henderson]

We the people, there are existing levers that can be pulled.

[Corey Calkins]

Yep. And the people of Brian Head, Utah can get what they want and it doesn't shortchange the rest of us. However, Lee doesn't want to do that. He's like, nope, free nothing. Right. And are you really going to come out and work against these fine citizens of Brian Head, Utah? And I was like, yep, I am. Because we have all these systems in place that are public and they're for the benefit of we the people of the United States. Right. Let's work within that framework and everybody can get what they want. Yeah, but he's just like not willing to do that.

[Brody Henderson]

Moving, moving past good old Mike Lee real quick. What are some of the other big issues or fights you think BHA is going to be tackling this year and moving forward?

[Corey Calkins]

I think awareness is, is a huge part of this. You know, we, it's, you know, from the top down, like we're being told there's a campaign running to tell people of how our public lands are not good, they're not working for us, not in the best interest of the American people and you know, hunters and anglers, like, if you just look at blm, like we are uniquely poised to be like, actually this stuff's incredible.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Corey Calkins]

It's insanely valuable. You can't put a price tag on it. And then the ecosystem services that those lands provide, in addition to being like the home of like our extractive industry, a lot of times it's like the case to sell this stuff off is so thin. Like it is just like it should be a non starter. So that's going to remain like a goal of the organization.

[Brody Henderson]

Just getting the message out.

[Corey Calkins]

You got to get the message out. There's a lot of people out there who are in full alignment on this, but they don't pay attention to what hunting and angling groups.

[Brody Henderson]

Right.

[Corey Calkins]

Do or think. So that coalition part of the package is something that, that we can definitely help bring to the table. Right. So I've got done a lot of work in the past with big green conservation groups as well as big businesses that more align with the, the quote unquote green side of things. And the, the fun thing here is like, you don't have to give anything up in order to bring some education into all sides here. So like, you know, very succinctly, it's America. We can have our guns and our public lands.

[Brody Henderson]

Sure.

[Corey Calkins]

And if somebody tells you that we can't, they're working against you.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Like, there is nothing that we have. Nothing that we have and enjoy right now that is not here because we didn't demand it. It's not here because we got lucky. It's because we hit the brakes and said, oh, my God, there's no more freaking ducks left.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

We got to do something about this.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, my God. Remember how cool elk were? Let's come up with a giant program to reseed elk across their native ranch. Like, we're in this memory lapse situation right now where it's like people have forgotten all the hard work and dedication that happened to give us what we have right now.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

And we just need to remind people that this stuff is not here by chance. We didn't get lucky. It's here by choice. And people demanded that we have this system of public lands, that we want wildlife and we want access to them.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Stakes are high.

[Corey Calkins]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, Cal, I'd like to end this interview by saying that you've been a big inspiration to me over the years, and I'm sure the same goes for everyone here at Meat Eater and the fans who are listening. So thanks for the work that you're done and the work you're about to do, fighting the good fight for all of us hunters and anglers.

[Corey Calkins]

Well, thank you for taking your. Your hosting job and putting in this opportunity. So, membership.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Gotta grow the membership. We need more names on the list so we can advocate more effectively.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

For our public lands, waters, and wildlife. So if you can do something for all of us, get. Just get a solo membership and tune in and see what we got to say.

[Brody Henderson]

Cool. Cool. All right, Phil. We're gonna end it with some New Year's resolutions.

[Ryan Callahan]

Cool.

[Brody Henderson]

Imagine we've got enough material by now that we can end this thing. Corey. Hey, that's 2026.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, yeah. I mean, obviously, I could try and eat more exercise or.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Sorry.

[Brody Henderson]

Eat.

[Ryan Callahan]

Eat healthier.

[Brody Henderson]

Sure.

[Ryan Callahan]

More exercise, more this and that. That'll probably come as a roller coaster ride, as it typically does for me throughout the year. Start out gold, and then end up not so healthy. But then it comes back and forth. But my new year's resolution is my son's gonna be eight next year, and I want to do more hunting with them. Certainly watching you and Giannis and Steve take your kids out and hearing all the tips and tricks. The best man have a great woods with them. It's been tricky up until this point. I would say we've done a little bit more this year. Than. Than in years past. But now that he's eight, he's a couple years off being able to do it himself with me in the woods. So we're gonna try and get out a little bit more. A couple squirrel outings and spring turkey.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Cool.

[Ryan Callahan]

Every day in the summer. Then up next fall too.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

So.

[Brody Henderson]

Nice.

[Corey Calkins]

Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

More time in the woods with my boy.

[Corey Calkins]

That's a good one. I support you in that.

[Ryan Callahan]

Thank you.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Got anything specific or.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, boy. I. Not really just improve on all fronts.

[Brody Henderson]

That's fine. That's all. That's. That's good enough.

[Corey Calkins]

Day by day.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

Baby steps. My resolution for weight loss comes with like a. Have always kept like the same stable of T shirts. Like, the new ones come and go real fast.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

But I'm like, if I throw on an old T shirt that I really like and go, oh my God. Yeah, that's. That's my.

[Brody Henderson]

I don't view as someone who's got a weight loss problem.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, man. It's just like, you know, older we get.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

The old beer gut becomes like a real thing.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah.

[Corey Calkins]

And you go, oh, who is this? Ho, ho, ho.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

Cool. Big one for me is I'm doing a marathon with a goal time at 3:30, which is. It's going to be tough, but it's doable. If I stick with the training and get lucky and stay injury free, it's going to be a tough one, but I'm. I'm giving it. Giving it a go.

[Corey Calkins]

What's, what's your timeline?

[Brody Henderson]

September. So I'll start like the, the actual like regimented training program in early April. So between now and then it's just putting miles on, you know.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. Plus around here you'd need, you know, there's a good chance you need like, indoor training.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah, exactly. Like, I, like I was looking at spring marathons because you can't, like, can't. It's too hot in the summer. Right. A lot of places. But like, Missoula has one in June. But then when you think about Montana's winner, it's like, do I have time to get ready for that one? Not really. So it's better that I'm doing one. Doing what? I'm doing one out in Billings in, in September.

[Corey Calkins]

Nice.

[Brody Henderson]

Yeah. And then like, for like our world, our hunting world, whatever we want to call it, like Corey. It's pretty much. I've kind of had the same one going for a few years and it probably shows my age and it's corny and cliche. But was, like, focusing on the fun, the experience, the people, the places. Like, that's what I'm worried about these days. Rather than, like, what an animal scores or something like that. I just want hunting to be like, it was when I was a kid and everything was special and fun. And then there's like, the old man element to it where you, like, grow wise enough to just, like, appreciate whatever you're given. You know what I mean? Like that. So that's my, like, hunting resolution for the year.

[Corey Calkins]

That's a good one.

[Brody Henderson]

Love it.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. I need. I was gonna say, I have not done, like, my big wilderness backpack hunt for two years now.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Yeah.

[Brody Henderson]

And time to get back to it.

[Corey Calkins]

I. I have, like, for mental health purposes. I gotta make that thing happen.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep. For sure.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah. And that's like, a big buck dreams type of deal. But yeah. I mean, consequently, like, I haven't shot a deer in two years because I. The. The whole scene is so important to me.

[Brody Henderson]

Yep.

[Corey Calkins]

Where it's, like, is way more.

[Brody Henderson]

You're spending all your time protecting that stuff rather than going out and.

[Corey Calkins]

Well, that's the attitude that I want to keep, though, is like, I. I don't want this to be a career. I want to, like, put myself out of a job as soon as freaking possible. Right. So, like, as. As fast as people can onboard yourself.

[Brody Henderson]

Obsolete.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh, absolutely, man.

[Brody Henderson]

That's great.

[Corey Calkins]

And I think that is, like, a real difference in goal. Like, career people and all sorts of things. Like. Like, there's people in this space that I think a third of the time they are working in a way that will never put this to bed.

[Brody Henderson]

Right. Right.

[Corey Calkins]

I'm like, oh, great. You just created more enemies that are galvanized against you. I'm like, how about we just do the good thing and. And get it done, and then everybody understands and respects this stuff and. And we can go. I'll go back to swinging a hammer, being happy.

[Brody Henderson]

Nice. I think that's a great place to end it.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

What about Phil?

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Swing a hammer, Phil.

[Corey Calkins]

Where's Bill?

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Bill.

[Brody Henderson]

We'Re gonna jump back in time.

[Corey Calkins]

What?

[Brody Henderson]

I need you to address something.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Okay. I'm following.

[Corey Calkins]

Oh.

[Brody Henderson]

Phil, this, this. We're going back to a podcast question. I swear to God, we're gonna end it after this.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Okay.

[Brody Henderson]

From Tate Green, at the beginning of a Some Meat eater podcast on YouTube, there's a dude wipes commercial.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

I've never heard this commercial, but continue.

[Brody Henderson]

There's a singing voice that sounds like it could be Phil. Oh, is this you, Phil?

[Corey Calkins]

No.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

I wish I could say it. It was me. It is not me. I'm flattered you think I can sing as well as that guy. He's. He's belting it. He's. He's really reaching for the stars there. Nope, that's not me. But I don't know, if I get tired of Meat Eater. I might like Nancy Kerrigan. Him. And then I'll maybe take his job or something.

[Corey Calkins]

Yeah, because that's the only way.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Yes, it's the. It truly is.

[Brody Henderson]

I mean, you're already the best podcast engineer in the business and, like, shucks, in demand. Stage actor, semi professional gamer, world renowned dungeon master.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

World renowned.

[Brody Henderson]

But you, you know, you might have time to get a side hustle singing jingles.

[Ryan Callahan]

How's that song go again?

[Brody Henderson]

He won't sing it. He told me he wouldn't.

[Corey Calkins]

Well, yeah.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Dude Wipes needs to pay us more money if they want us to sing the song on this show.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, nothing's free.

[Corey Calkins]

All right, fork it out.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Dude Wipes.

[Corey Calkins]

Thanks. Resolution. Don't we get a fill Resolution?

[Ryan Callahan]

That's what I was wondering.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Mine is to read more.

[Brody Henderson]

Hey, there you go.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's a good one.

[Brody Henderson]

Solid. Always a good one with you on that.

[Corey Calkins]

Any genre?

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

Oh, nothing, nothing. I mean, it's fantasy, Cal.

[Corey Calkins]

I don't.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

I'm not reading any nonfiction around here.

[Brody Henderson]

The Dungeon Master's Manual, 23rd edition.

[Phil (Podcast Engineer)]

It's in my backpack up in my office right now.

[Corey Calkins]

Amazing.

[Brody Henderson]

All right, everyone. Happy New Year, Happy holidays. Do good in 2026 and tune in next week later.

[Ryan Callahan]

Hear.

[Advertisement Voice]

Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. That's software overload. Odoo is the all in one platform that replaces them all. CRM, accounting, inventory, E Commerce, hr. Fully integrated, easy to use, and built to grow. With your business, thousands have already made the switch. Why not you try Odoo for [e-mail]? that's odoo.com.

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Dr. Phil Lavretsky]

Guaranteed Human.