The MeatEater Podcast

Ep. 817: Conservation Wins and Losses with Senator Martin Heinrich
Date: January 5, 2026
Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Senator Martin Heinrich (D, New Mexico), Dr. Randall Williams, Callahan

Episode Overview

In this episode, Steven Rinella sits down with Senator Martin Heinrich of New Mexico for an in-depth, wide-ranging conversation on the current wins and challenges in American conservation policy. Topics covered include landmark public land access decisions, the ongoing battle over stream and waterway access, high-stakes development threats in Alaska, the pros and cons of energy development (from oil to renewables), and emerging threats to species like mule deer.
The discussion is candid and, at times, deeply personal, combining Senator Heinrich's policy experience with the practical, boots-on-the-ground perspective of hunters, anglers, and conservationists. The tone is passionate, knowledgeable, and accessible, blending technical explanations with stories from the field and political realities from D.C.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Senator Heinrich’s Outdoor Roots

• Grew up in Missouri hunting and fishing, moved to New Mexico, passionate about public lands and wildlife.
• Maintains a "loud and proud" hunting-themed Senate office in D.C. as a connection to home and as a conversation starter with colleagues.
• [03:04] “Conservation is kind of what gets me on the plane on Monday morning, leaving blue skies and mountains for all the bullshit in D.C.” — Heinrich

2. Major Public Land Access Cases

The Corner Crossing Controversy

• Background: Recent Supreme Court decline to hear a case challenging the legality of “corner crossing” (stepping from one public land parcel to another where private parcels meet at a corner), affirming federal (Unlawful Enclosures Act) over state law.
• [06:14] “We're getting back to what the actual law of the land is, which is that there is a federal law called the Unlawful Enclosures Act that says you can go from public to public... That is a late 1800s law.” — Heinrich
• Challenges around clarity: Some states (e.g., Montana) claim corner crossing is still unlawful, but Heinrich argues federal law should preempt.
• [12:16] “If someone was prosecuted and they fought it and appealed, the same Unlawful Enclosures Act would apply.”

Stream Access and Navigability

• New Mexico’s distinct (Spanish-influenced) stream access traditions allow wading up and down rivers—not just floating, unlike many other Western states.
• Recent NM Supreme Court ruling reasserts public access, regardless of historical “navigability” for commerce.
• [15:04] “Our constitution articulates something that other states don’t have. We always had a standard... you could wade up and down that river so long as you were in the stream…” — Heinrich
• Ongoing tension with landowners, but consensus building via legal certainty and law enforcement.

3. Long-Term Perspective on Access and Responsibility

• [23:21] “Be responsible. That should be the mantra for sportsmen all the time. Think about how your actions are going to reflect on all of us.” — Heinrich
• Call for sportsmen and women to embrace both their rights and the responsibility to protect shared access for future generations.

4. Conservation Battles in Alaska

Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR)

• Deeply partisan issue; oil leasing permitted by a 2017 budget bill but failed to attract major oil companies (public pressure and low resource economics).
• [29:42] “There is some social risk to developing America’s greatest wildlife refuge... the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.” — Heinrich
• Lasting protection requires 60-vote legislation, not shifting administrative orders.

Ambler Road Proposal

• 250-mile industrial road through the Brooks Range would fragment critical subsistence ecosystems and threaten the Western Arctic caribou herd.
• [36:38] “This is going to be a road that’s elevated gravel... sometimes [caribou] will walk across the road, but if there's an elevated structure... those caribou ball up for weeks and don't want to cross it. And eventually they do, and then they haul ass.” — Heinrich
• Recognizes economic/job needs are real, but stresses the irreplaceable value of wilderness.

Federal Ownership Stake in Mining

• [41:55] Shocking revelation: The U.S. government recently took a 10% ownership in Trilogy Metals, the Ambler developer—“bonkers... the government should never own the means of production.”

5. Roadless Rule and “Ping-Pong” Politics

• The “roadless rule” prevents new road construction/development on select US Forest Service lands.
• Subject to repeal and reinstatement with each administration, but started as a broadly bipartisan conservation tool.
• Current moves to again roll back protections are driven by “energy dominance” dogma and industry, not good forest management or legitimate fire mitigation.
• [48:58] “So much of this revolves around energy and minerals trumping every other use. And we don't want to get in the business of balancing uses.” — Heinrich

6. Energy Development and Wildlife

Renewables

• Heinrich supports renewables, but with significant caveats. Warns against public land industrialization for wind/solar, supports siting on private land with local input and benefits.
• [61:41] “It shouldn’t matter whether it’s traditional energy or new energy. We should be looking out, trying to make sure that the critters on the landscape are not overwhelmed by industrial development.”

Nuclear

• Sees promise in advanced, modular nuclear as a habitat-friendly, high-output energy source, but cost remains a barrier.
• [67:32] “Biggest challenge for nuclear is that historically it’s never been able to be produced cheap enough to compete with other sources… but [small modular reactors]... can get a natural reduction in costs.”
• Supports bipartisan movement for new nuclear technologies and even speculative fusion.

7. Waters of the United States (WOTUS)

• Ongoing Supreme Court-driven restriction of wetland protections; NM moving to regulate its own waters as federal scope shrinks.
• [87:57] “If the EPA is not going to do that...(protect wetlands), the state is now working on taking that back... to protect waters in the state on their own.”

8. Mule Deer and Wildlife Management

• Deep concerns about mule deer declines—a topic personal to both Heinrich and Rinella.
• [104:04] “Elk are great, but there’s more elk in more places. Something's gotta pay the price. Whitetails... But again and again mule deer get kicked in the nuts. They're less tolerant.” — Rinella
• Acknowledgment that underlying issue is habitat fragmentation/loss more than hunting, calling for proactive management, even if unpopular.

9. Public Land Creation Success Stories

Recent Major Land Additions

• El Bar Ranch: 54,000 acres added via partnerships—includes tribal support, innovative funding (loans, Pittman-Robertson dollars), and rapid action.
• [81:13] “In 13 months, [we] created 54,000 acres of new public land... It is adjacent to National Forest, BLM wilderness study areas... And we've already reintroduced pronghorn back into that landscape.” — Heinrich

10. The Human Side of Conservation Politics

• Heinrich discusses his drive to work across government lines—federal, state, local—on conservation, refusing to just “stay in his lane.”
• [86:56] “If we have a team of people who can make something better in the state, even if it's not clearly in my lane, I will help.”
• Expresses disappointment at the growing partisanship of conservation and the lost art of bipartisan land protections.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:04] “Conservation is what gets me on the plane... leaving blue skies and mountains for all the bullshit in D.C.” — Heinrich
• [06:14] “At its core... there is a federal law called the Unlawful Enclosures Act that says you can go from public to public, and that supersedes county trespass law, state trespass law.” — Heinrich
• [29:42] “There is some social risk to developing America’s greatest wildlife refuge... the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.” — Heinrich
• [36:38] “Those caribou ball up for weeks and don’t want to cross [the Ambler Road]... They lose weeks of putting on fat, they’re in poorer condition...” — Heinrich
• [61:41] “It shouldn’t matter whether it’s traditional energy or new energy. We should be looking out... [so] critters on the landscape are not overwhelmed by industrial development.” — Heinrich
• [104:04] “Elk are great... But again and again, mule deer get kicked in the nuts. They're less tolerant.” — Rinella
• [86:56] “I am not going to stay in my federal lane. ... If we have a team who can make something better in the state—even if it's not in my lane—I will help.” — Heinrich
• [99:04] “The biggest story of the year was the public land sell off... I was just blown away by the breadth of that coalition. Bunny huggers to bowhunters, everybody in between.” — Heinrich

Important Timestamps by Topic

• Senator’s hunting background & office style: 00:22–04:14
• Corner Crossing legalities and implications: 05:21–13:56
• Stream access law in the West & NM Supreme Court ruling: 14:08–18:48
• Sabinoso Wilderness & success via LWCF acquisition: 24:19–25:39
• Alaska conservation battles (ANWR & Ambler Road): 27:16–44:12
• Roadless Rule: history and repeal efforts: 44:42–56:35
• Public/private land challenges with renewables: 57:58–66:47
• Nuclear and energy policy outlook: 66:48–73:24
• WOTUS, wetland loss, and state primacy: 87:00–91:05
• Mule deer struggles & game management: 101:52–110:37
• El Bar Ranch public land acquisition: 79:07–83:49
• The politics of conservation, cross-level collaboration: 85:07, 86:56
• Broad coalition pushback on public land selloff: 99:04–101:09

Concluding Reflections

This episode is a must-listen for anyone invested in the future of public lands and wildlife in America. It highlights the enduring tension between access and conservation, short-term exploitation and long-term stewardship, and the growing need for responsible, bipartisan advocacy rooted in both science and tradition.

Senator Heinrich’s presence as a real outdoorsman in powerful places is both an encouraging and urgent reminder: the arc of conservation is long, but it bends only with relentless engagement from ground level all the way up.