The MeatEater Podcast

Ep. 829: Who Will Save the Columbia River's Salmon?

Host: Steven Rinella
Guests: Doug Hatch (Deputy Manager, Fishery Science, CRITFC), Donella Miller (Fishery Science Manager, CRITFC)
Release Date: February 2, 2026

Overview

This episode explores the crisis facing the Columbia River’s once-legendary salmon runs, tracing their near-collapse and examining who—if anyone—can save them. Host Steven Rinella welcomes Doug Hatch and Donella Miller of the Columbia River Inter-Tribal Fish Commission (CRITFC). They discuss the historic abundance of salmon, the impact of dams, tribal treaty rights, modern restoration efforts, predator problems (especially sea lions), the politics of dam removal, hatchery vs. wild fish management, cultural connections, and signs of hope.

With a focus on science, history, and indigenous perspectives, the conversation also candidly addresses misconceptions, shifting environmental baselines, regulatory complexities, and the daunting path forward.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historic Context & Collapse of the Salmon Runs

• Historic Abundance and Cultural Significance
  • Columbia once saw up to 10–16 million salmon return annually (03:00–06:00).
  • Salmon were “inconceivable” in their numbers; Celilo Falls was a major trade hub for millennia.
• Collapse Causes
  • Overfishing (canneries, fish wheels), hydroelectric dams, habitat loss, and development led to a decline—now just a fraction of historic runs (12:30–18:00).
  • “There was a never ending series of mistakes, intentional actions, accidental actions…” —Steven Rinella (03:20)
• Treaty Rights and Broken Promises
  • Four treaty tribes (Yakama, Umatilla, Warm Springs, Nez Perce) have rights to fish, yet the resource was devastated after treaties were signed (06:00–08:00).
  • "Those rights mean nothing if there’s no fish to catch. The right isn’t just to dip our nets in empty waters.” —Doug Hatch (07:38)

2. Dams: The Central Problem

• Scale and Lethality
  • There are 8 major mainstem dams before reaching headwaters, with some tributary runs passing over 8–9 dams (13:00–14:00).
  • At every dam, 7–15% of juvenile salmon die, not including extra loss from reservoirs, predation, disorientation (12:31–14:18).
  • Mortality “should mean there shouldn’t be any more fish left. And it’s just amazing that we still have fish coming back.” —Doug Hatch (18:46)
• Historical Knowledge vs. Modern Reality
  • Dams were built knowing their destruction; memos described anticipated fish losses and described salmon as an "Indian problem" (115:38–116:20).
  • Modern upgrades for fish passage are slow, costly, and often insufficient.

3. Tribal Leadership in Restoration

• CRITFC’s Formation & Purpose
  • Tribes frustrated by the states’ and federal government’s “minimal approach” (mostly just to avoid extinction, not true recovery) formed their own organization to pursue active, holistic management and recovery (29:04–33:00).
  • “We don’t want museum relics... we want healthy and sustainable [populations] and we would love more than to work ourselves out of a job.” —Donella Miller (31:20)
• Innovative Methods
  • State-of-the-art genetic labs, “gravel to gravel” management (ocean to headwater to home again), diverse staff with a cultural stake (33:00–37:20).
  • Reject “ten-year studies before action”—applied science is key.

4. Social Dynamics & Misconceptions

• Blame Placed on Tribes
  • Widespread (and erroneous) idea among non-Native anglers: tribal fisheries or commercial gillnetting are to blame for the salmon’s decline (44:00–47:58).
  • “People look past the dam and see you... and that’s the problem. They can’t picture what happened.” —Steven Rinella (46:44)
• Disproportionate Burden
  • Tribal fishers face harassment, even violence (“We’ve been shot at... The cops didn’t even show up.” —Doug Hatch, 45:43).
  • The majority of harvestable fish are caught by non-tribal fisheries in the ocean or lower river.

5. Complexity of Predators: Sea Lions, Birds, and Non-Native Fish

• Sea Lion Explosion & Federal Laws
  • Marine Mammal Protection Act (1972) worked “too well”—now 300,000+ California sea lions, many feasting at Bonneville Dam instead of their depleted coastal range (61:38–71:44).
  • Annual predation can remove 5–50% (!) of some salmon runs before fish even pass the dam (81:03–83:09).
  • Removal efforts require identifying—and then trapping and euthanizing—specific individuals under strict protocols (branding, observation, trap-and-euthanasia, cumbersome red tape).
  • “It's really inefficient, the laws that are put upon us to be able to do this work... we could be doing a lot more.” —Doug Hatch (92:11)
• Other Predators
  • Cormorants, gulls, pelicans, and non-native fish (walleye, smallmouth) are also major issues, but nearly all are protected by other federal acts (94:41–98:45).
  • Bounties on native pike minnow are mostly ineffective; walleye and smallmouth cause far more juvenile salmon losses but are now valued 'gamefish,' leading to further conflict within the fishing public.

6. Dam Removal: Dream or Reality?

• Political and Economic Barriers
  • Though models show fish rebound dramatically after dam removal (White Salmon, Klamath), such removals are rare (130:05–131:37).
  • The major Columbia dams are unlikely to fall within the century, but severe environmental impacts (toxic algae, water shortages) may finally push action (136:06–136:52).
  • Even with dams, running the river more like a river (better flow scheduling, spill, habitat restoration) could help.
• Tribal & Legislative Battles
  • Funding is perennially lacking; the “billion-dollar backlog” is never closed, and the cost of electricity never includes ecological losses (115:13–120:10).
  • Tribes often must sue, lobby, and then "hold the agencies' hands" to get even basic restoration or compensation.

7. Success Stories and Hope

• Innovations
  • Steelhead “spa” reconditioning: capturing post-spawn wild steelhead, reconditioning them in tanks, and releasing them for additional spawning runs (161:08–164:53).
• Salmon Population Rebounds
  • Snake River fall Chinook rebounded from under 100 to up to 90,000 thanks to innovative integrated hatchery programs.
  • Coho and sockeye reintroductions, despite initial state opposition, have succeeded in bringing these fish back to former habitats.
• Lamprey Restoration
  • Native lamprey, a critical “First Food,” are being restored with new passage and translocation techniques, benefiting river health and tribal culture (149:16–156:45).
• Collaboration
  • The Six Sovereigns model (four tribes + Oregon and Washington) shows that Native/State partnerships can lead to joint progress.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dam Impact:
  “You add it up, there shouldn’t be any more fish left. And it’s just amazing that we still have fish coming back.”
  —Doug Hatch ([18:46])

• On Treaty Rights:
  “Those rights mean nothing if there’s no fish to catch. The right isn’t just to dip our nets in empty waters.”
  —Doug Hatch ([07:38])

• On Blame and Misconception:
  “They look through the dam or past the dam and they see you. And that’s the problem, you know? They can’t picture what happened.”
  —Steven Rinella ([46:44])

• On Sea Lion Predation:
  “The highest observed consumption [of salmon] was 10,000 fish... That represented almost 5% of the spring Chinook run.”
  —Donella Miller ([81:03])

• On Regulatory Gridlock:
  “There’s no act amongst the acts. There’s no hierarchy... we have these fish on the brink of extinction and these sea lions exceeding carrying capacity.”
  —Doug Hatch ([96:55])

• On Cultural Loss:
  “We refer to ourselves as salmon people...we were displaced by the construction of the dams. They painted the homes that would be underwater, took an inventory, and that was it. We've never received our Columbia river housing for the villages that were flooded. It’s just like—your house is gone.”
  —Doug Hatch ([53:48])

• On Hope:
  “If you open the door, [salmon] are going to find the resources and return to those areas.”
  —Doug Hatch ([131:54])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Historic Salmon Abundance & First Impacts: [02:56–15:19]
• Dam Impact and Fish Mortality: [12:11–14:18]
• Tribal Treaty Rights & Management: [06:26–08:24], [29:04–33:00]
• Formation and Role of CRITFC: [29:04–37:20]
• Dam Removal & Political Challenges: [115:13–131:37]
• Sea Lion Predation Problems & Management: [61:38–83:09]
• Non-Native Fish, Birds, and Other Predators: [94:41–98:45]
• Cultural and Social Dynamics: [44:00–50:46], [53:48–56:04]
• Lamprey & Other “First Foods”: [149:16–156:45]
• Success Stories & Signs of Hope: [161:08–173:15]

Takeaways

• The Columbia’s salmon crisis is vast and multi-layered: historical exploitation, habitat loss, dam impacts, and shifting public/cultural attitudes have all played a role.
• Tribes lead much of the most innovative, science-driven, and culturally rooted restoration in the basin—often against political, financial, and social headwinds.
• All recovery efforts face a web of federal regulations originally designed to protect one species but now impeding management of ecological balance.
• Restoring salmon isn’t just about the fish—it’s about cultural survival, food sovereignty, and ecological health for an entire region.
• There are real successes—population rebounds, lamprey restoration, cross-jurisdictional cooperation—and reasons for measured hope if adequate funding and willpower can be found.

For Listeners & Further Support

• Get Involved / Donate: www.critfc.org
  “The only time we make actionable change is when we set aside our differences... and also connecting as people. If you want to donate, you can—just go to our website.”

This podcast offers a thorough, moving, and technically rich look at a legendary river’s past, its struggles, and the ways—practical and philosophical—that the salmon might still be saved.

Note: Segments, quotes, and topics have been attributed by timestamp where possible. Some time references are approximated due to organic conversation flow.