Ep. 832: Osceola, Native American Slavery, and The Seminole Wars

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast – Ep. 832

"Osceola, Native American Slavery, and The Seminole Wars"
Date: February 9, 2026
Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Jamie Holmes, author of The Free and the Dead: The Untold Story of the Black Seminole Chief, the Indigenous Rebel, and America's Forgotten War

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the tangled and often misunderstood history of the Seminole Wars, Native American and Black Seminole resistance in Florida, and the legendary figures of Osceola and Abraham. Steven Rinella welcomes journalist and author Jamie Holmes for an in-depth, wide-ranging conversation on the intersecting histories of Native American displacement, Black freedom struggles, and the muddy realities of war on the American frontier.

Holmes's new book, The Free and the Dead, is the centerpiece, with discussions ranging from the complex formation of the Seminole identity, the role of slavery and slave escapes in the South, and the legacies (and mythologies) of key players in this "forgotten war." The discussion is rich in historical detail, cultural context, and colorful storytelling, balancing deep archival research with accessible, irreverent humor.

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Guest Introduction & Background

• Jamie Holmes, author of The Free and the Dead, as well as 12 Seconds of Silence and Nonsense.
  • Work published in NYT, The New Yorker, Slate, Wired, among others.
  • Academic background in international affairs and behavioral economics ([03:07]).

Behavioral Economics Tangent

• Holmes briefly explains behavioral economics, including “anchoring” and policy-level psychology such as ‘nudges’ to influence public behavior ([03:54–07:25]).
  • "They brought in people who would, for lack of a better word, be good at like manipulating the public to have behaviors that they wish they had." — Rinella ([06:39])
• Quick, humorous detour about tipping and menu pricing (“That's too weird.” — Holmes [08:45]; “In the bottom is...all of this is elevated by 14%. But you can request to have that not happen. That's wild.” — Rinella [07:37]).

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Setting the Stage: The Complexity of the Seminole Story

Why Write This Book?

• Holmes wanted to tackle the often mythologized and contradictory record of the Seminole Wars by delving into archives and assembling a narrative that acknowledges both contemporary accounts, contradictions, and new evidence ([11:08–14:45]).
  • "The past is a foreign country." — Holmes quoting David Lowenthal ([12:41])
  • Jamie's work finds, e.g., Abraham’s true origins, contradicting Wikipedia and prior scholarship ([14:24]).

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Who Were the Seminoles? Origins and Identity

• ‘Seminole’ comes from the Spanish ‘cimarron’ – “runaway” or “untamed”; exonym, not indigenous self-identifier ([18:02–18:58]).
  • "Originally, there's an estimate of 25,000 Indigenous people in Florida… those people were wiped out… By the time the Seminoles come down... they come from the Creek Confederacy.” — Holmes ([19:19])
• Seminoles formed in three 'waves' (1700-1814) by bands pushed out of Georgia/Alabama, often resisting acculturation—i.e., resisting full adoption of "American" agricultural and social structures ([21:39]).
• 19th-century U.S. demanded conformity; newspapers over-simplified a fragmented reality by labeling all Native groups in Florida as “Seminole” ([22:21–23:49]).
  • “If you call them all Seminoles, you can't understand what's going on.” — Holmes ([23:33])

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Native American Enslavement & African/Black Seminole Dynamics

Shifting Definitions of Slavery

• Pre-Anglo creek practice: POWs could be killed, adopted, or made servants; their children would be free. This changed to race-based, perpetual (chattel) slavery at the turn of the 19th century ([24:41–26:19]).
  • “I own you. I own your children... Your child is my servant." — Rinella ([26:11])

Black Seminoles and Layers of Freedom

• About 500 Black Seminoles in Florida, nuanced status: some nominal “slaves” but in practice lived with greater autonomy, held wealth, and traveled freely ([27:03–31:02]).
• “In a way, they are using it [the label of ‘slave’] as protection… If you're already someone else's property in the eyes of the outsiders, they can't take you." — Holmes ([30:15])
• Paperwork/distinctions for protection of children and family—proactive, highly strategic behavior ([30:26]).

The Southern “Underground Railroad”

• From late 1600s, Florida offered a "Southern railroad" for escaping enslaved people—with Spanish policy granting freedom for military service, some going further to Cuba ([31:13–33:32]).
  • “This is a very old deal: soldiery for civil rights.” — Holmes ([31:33])

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The Seminole Wars – Key Conflicts and Characters

The Red Sticks and Creek Civil War

• Red Sticks (Upper Creeks, traditionalists who became core of the Seminoles) vs. White Sticks (more acculturated, some siding with the U.S.) ([36:38]):
  • “Osceola comes from the Red Sticks… fought against Andrew Jackson.” — Holmes ([36:38])
  • Battle of Horseshoe Bend (1814): “Jackson fights with the White Sticks against the Red Sticks.” — Holmes ([37:01])
• Osceola and survivors migrate to Florida as children, carrying both trauma and a warrior outlook ([37:12]).

Osceola: The Man, the Myth

Early Life and Reputation

• Part Creek, aligned with Sam Jones (Abiaka, Mikazuki chief).
• “His character is… he's an angry young man.” — Holmes ([40:24])

Infamous Outburst and Imprisonment

• Osceola’s legendary tirade against Indian agent Wiley Thompson at Fort King: "I'm gonna kill you and I'm gonna leave your body out in the rain..." ([42:14])
• Weeks later, Osceola is arrested and, after “repenting,” is released, only to go on to kill (pro-emigration) Creek chief Charlie Amathla—controversially, in front of his daughter ([45:15–48:27]).

“And not to jump ahead, but Osceola kills Amothla in front of at least one of his daughters as a warning to other leaders not to break off, not to leave, because he doesn't want… what happened in Alabama and Georgia…” — Holmes ([45:15])

Assassination of Thompson/Kickoff of War

• Osceola and 40 Mikazuki warriors ambush Thompson, fulfilling his earlier threat; gruesome details recounted ([49:06–53:09]).

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Abraham and the Black Seminoles

• Diplomat and interpreter for principal chief Micanopy; likely born among Seminoles, not a runaway slave ([60:02–61:04]).
• "He's also Micanopy's sense bearer, along with his chief name jumper, the concilier... He's the interpreter and the advisor. He's the keeper of the king's conscience." — Holmes ([61:04])
• Seen as "chief of the dark people" (iste luste) and vital in strategic planning for the Black Seminoles ([63:42]).

The Uncle Monday Folktale

• Holmes recounts a folktale recorded by Zora Neale Hurston, in which an African medicine man transforms into an alligator, symbolizing the blending of African and Native traditions and the creative ethnogenesis of the Black Seminoles ([65:32–68:23]).

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Guerrilla Warfare & The Seminole War in Florida

• The Seminoles used terrain as a weapon, employing guerrilla tactics that flummoxed and frustrated U.S. troops ([54:24–58:47]).
  • “The ability to just vanish…stake up and hide…is astounding.” — Rinella ([54:14])
• US commanders acknowledged that the terrain could be held by hundreds against thousands ([55:46]).
• Holmes draws parallels to Vietnam: “The parallels between this conflict and Vietnam are just almost too much to get into…” — Podcast Co-host ([81:46])

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The Dade Massacre

• December 1835: Major Dade (with ~100 troops) ambushed traveling through the reservation. Half are killed in the first volley; 105 U.S. killed, only three Seminole casualties ([76:53–78:03]).
  • “It's the largest loss of life on the US side in any fight with Native forces until Custer.” — Holmes ([78:03])
• Details of the aftermath, including delay in recovering bodies, and the psychological impact on the U.S. ([78:55–80:41])

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The Arc and Aftermath of the Wars

The “Long War” Perspective

• The wars are artificially divided by historians into three periods, but the Seminole Tribe of Florida frames it as the continuous “Long War” against colonial aggression ([85:51]).
• Official “end” in 1842 with a U.S. withdrawal, but no formal peace/capitulation: “That's why they call them the unconquered people, because there never is a capitulation.” — Holmes ([83:05])

Legacies & Modern Perspectives

• Seminole pride and prosperity today—museum, casinos, reservation success stories ([88:29–89:45]).

Indian Removal and its Costs

• Jessup (army logistics master) calculated the “per-head” cost of removing Native Americans; actual war costs exploded ($40 million, more than twice annual federal outlays) ([91:35–92:16])
  • “This war ends up costing $30 to $40 million. It's the longest.” — Holmes ([92:17])

Fate of Key Figures

Osceola

• Captured under a white flag (controversially) by Gen. Jessup ([93:51–94:33]).
• Dies of illness at Fort Moultrie while a kind of celebrity, confused about his fame ([103:16]); afterwards, his head is taken as a souvenir by his doctor, who used it to punish his children ([104:34]).
  • “There’s a story… when his kids misbehaved, he would hang Osceola's embalmed head… Imagine that.” — Holmes ([104:20])
  • “The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.” — Holmes ([104:39])

Abraham

• Survives, leads Black Seminoles west, dies an old man in Oklahoma. Sees emancipation, his son fights for the Union, celebrated as a success ([106:09–107:56]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The book validates all of your preconceived notions about the brutality and crime of the Indian wars, but simultaneously it turns every preconceived notion you have about the Indian wars on its head.” — Rinella ([09:41])
• “The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.” — Holmes quoting Lowenthal ([104:39])
• “I don't want to overstate it, but to some degree, Osceola is amplified.” — Holmes on myth-making ([102:58])
• “They wanted to clean up all the confusion…. They didn't want free black people there as a bad example to the enslaved population.” — Holmes ([29:39])

Humor & Irreverence

• Multiple asides about journalism, behavioral economics, and academia.
• Running joke about "the past is a foreign country".
• Banter about finding a Neanderthal guest: “I didn’t want a writer, I wanted a researcher. But I’ll take a writer. Yeah, you made me like writers.” — Rinella ([109:53])

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Timeline & Key Segments

• [03:54–07:25]: Behavioral economics & public policy nudges
• [12:41]: "The past is a foreign country" – writing history
• [18:02–24:07]: Origin & meaning of 'Seminole', identity issues
• [24:41–31:02]: Native American, Black, and chattel slavery
• [31:13–33:32]: Black escape route to Florida/"Southern underground railroad"
• [36:38–37:12]: Creek Civil War, Red Sticks, Osceola’s roots
• [42:14–48:27]: Osceola's outburst/threats and the murder of Amathla
• [49:06–53:09]: Killing of Thompson, war breaks out
• [60:02–63:42]: Abraham's biography and role
• [65:32–68:23]: Black Seminole folklore (Uncle Monday)
• [76:53–78:39]: The Dade Massacre
• [83:05–85:51]: The war’s vague end; “The Long War”
• [91:35–92:16]: Indian Removal Act and the staggering federal cost
• [93:51–104:20]: Osceola’s capture, celebrity, and grim postscript
• [106:09–107:56]: Abraham’s peaceful ending
• [109:36–110:13]: Neanderthal guests and the difficulty in academia

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a deep and captivating dive into one of America’s lesser-known but profoundly significant conflicts, deftly handled by Rinella and Holmes. Complex identities, multi-layered resistance, and uncomfortable truths about race, policy, and myth are all unpacked with scholarly rigor and storyteller’s flair.

Highly recommended for listeners interested in history, cultural complexity, and the underappreciated stories that have shaped modern America.

Transcript

[Jamie Holmes]

This is an Iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay, so you know, t mobile 5G home Internet is easy on the wallet, but here's some big news. It's now the fastest 5G home Internet according to the experts at Ookla Speed Test. And yeah, it's a great value because you get a 5 year price guarantee. T Mobile 5G home Internet. It's the fastest 5G home Internet at a great price with savings that stick. Check availability@t mobile.com homeinternet price guarantee. Exclusions like taxes and fees apply. It's the fastest, based on Ookla Speed Test intelligence Data from the second half of 2025. All rights reserved. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, unexpected underwear. Listen, you can't predict anything. Brought to you by first light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First light builds no compromise gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out@first light.com. that's F I R S T L I T E dot com. Good Lord. Writer Jamie Holmes is here. His third book's out, just out. I'm holding my hand here. It's called the Free and the Dead. The Untold Story of the Black Seminal Chief, the Indigenous Rebel and America's Forgotten war releases on February 3rd. So we're going to talk about the seminal wars and we're going to talk about a fellow. You have certainly heard about Osceola. Jamie, I was gonna tell you all about how I got interested in this. I got interested in this one. Clay on Bear Grease, did a series on Osceola and thinking to myself, well, how would Clay get the definitive story? There's got to be more. There's no way Clay didn't miss big. There's no way Clay didn't miss something that I would need to know about from friendly competition. Jamie Holmes is a writer and the author of the books the Free and the Dead. Of course, what I'm holding right here, plus 12 seconds of silence and the book Nonsense. His work has appeared in print or online in the New York Times, the New Yorker, Slate, Wired, the Atlantic, and he has slummed it over at USA Today, among other publications. He holds a master.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Steve's words, not Jamie's.

[Jamie Holmes]

Well.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It'S just like I was, you know, really, it was like he was kicking ass there. He's like, you know, he's kicking ass. And then it just. I've never read. I mean, hell, I'D be thrilled to be in the USA Today. Is that still going Concern? Remember they used to put it outside the hotel room?

[Jamie Holmes]

That was the paper they put outside all the hotel rooms. It's gotta be still going.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

He holds a Master's of International affairs from Columbia University School of International Affairs. You know, Randall over There holds a PhD.

[Jamie Holmes]

You have a master's?

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, yeah, and an honorary.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

But it's honorary.

[Jamie Holmes]

Okay, but it's much.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Pretty much bigger than mine.

[Jamie Holmes]

Good, good. Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Previously worked at New America as a policy analyst in international development and served as a Future Tense Fellow. Prior to that, he was a research coordinator at Harvard University's Department of Economics, where he focused on behavioral economics. Can you very quickly tell me what that means?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, sure, yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Behavioral economics.

[Jamie Holmes]

Behavioral economics tries to take insights from psychology and put them into policy. So, for example, there's a psychological phenomenon called. What's it called? Like, priming or like, let's say if you're giving a tip in a taxi cab, right? And they say your three options are $5, $7, and $9.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That's not what this is.

[Jamie Holmes]

This is not called priming. This is called. There's another word for it. And then you say $7, $9, and $11. So it's called anchoring. So you're anchoring your expectation of what the average is based on, you know, these three things. And they show how you can move people to give more donations based on these. These three numbers. And you move them up and down. So then they take that and, you know, you use that for fundraising. So what they really did is there's a book by this guy Cialdini, which was like sort of insights from the business world and how salespeople and people making products use and discovered these psychological insights and maps them on. And, you know, psychologists are discovering similar things, and then they want to basically turn that around instead of manipulating people to buy things or get them to do what you want, you know, whatever it is, raise money. You want to make positive policy changes. So that was the idea behind it. And there was a big push in the Obama government where he hired a lot of those people, Cass Sunstein, Richard Thaler, and my boss at Harvard, Sundal Malnathan. And they tried a bunch of stuff. Some worked, some didn't.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I got lost there.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Tried a bunch of stuff on. I don't understand what you mean.

[Jamie Holmes]

They tried a bunch of interventions based on psychological insights. So I'll give you another example of what they actually did. So what happens to save energy if you Send people a letter. And in a letter you tell them your neighbors are saving a lot of energy. They're not using a lot of water. They are keeping their electricity bill down.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I've gotten slow.

[Jamie Holmes]

So this is like social pressure.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

When you see how much their water they're using.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And you're like, you don't have three kids. Some bitch doesn't have three kids.

[Jamie Holmes]

So why are you using. Talk to the neighbor.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I'm saying this is a big shot.

[Jamie Holmes]

So this is social pressure. And they're trying to get. They're trying to use it to get people to use less energy.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

They also do.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

They did stuff with the size of soda cups. Like if you want people to ingest less sugar instead of putting a 44 ounce cup out because they're going to drink, they're going to drink. It's not like they're going to drink 44 ounces of soda no matter how big the cup is.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Understood. Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Or like the size of a tray in a cafeteria.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. Or you go to a store and they put the, you know, the. All the high sugar things right near the cash register because they want you to make an impulse buy.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

They say, well, what can we do with that? You know, what if we put something that's good for you there? Which doesn't necessarily.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I don't want to spend too much time. They brought in at like, on a policy basis, the administration brought in people who would, for lack of a better word, be good at like manipulating the public to have behaviors that they wish they had.

[Jamie Holmes]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And to counteract what.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I'm gonna have to put the Seminole. To counteract what?

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Corporations are doing this to get you to make certain choices.

[Jamie Holmes]

Sure.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

The idea was sort of leveling the playing field in terms of coffee shop.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

People are doing it.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Because when you get the tip functions, they're like, you could be like, the tip would be like 70%, 80%, 90% or other. And you gotta be like, oh, now I'm in a situation where I gotta hit other. You know. Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

Or there are stores in New York, now New York City, where you go and you're buying something at the counter and they say, do what? How much do you want to tip at the counter? You have not. It's like, I'm not. Interaction with a human. I am not dipping. Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I want to get. You're at some counters. But I do want to. The other day we were. When we were on. We were going to take our kids to visit their grandmas. We were in the Restaurant. And in the restaurant there's like the price of the menu. I wish I'd take a picture of it in very fine print. In the bottom is that we don't want to because of inflation. We don't want to change our menu's prices. So unless you ask otherwise, all of this is elevated by 14%. But you can request to have that not happen. That's wild. I am not kidding you. On the bottom of the menu. And I ate there. We were staying in a hotel. I ate there probably three times before my father in law noticed.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's weird.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

That's weird.

[Jamie Holmes]

So it says $8, but it's really whatever 9.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like you think your omelet is.12, your omelet is. They're saying we're putting a for unless you ask otherwise. That's actually 14% more because of inflation. But we don't want to change the menu prices.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's too weird.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It's a true word. It's. Guys like you. Guys like you, man. Into the Seminole war story. Yeah, dude. Here's what I. Here's why I got. I love your book. It does. The story does two things. The book does two things. The book captures all. The book validates all of your sort of pre. What? Not your. The book. The book validates one's. All of one's preconceived notions about the brutality and crime of the Indian Wars. But simultaneously it turns every preconceived notion you have about the Indian wars on its head. And then. And I'll explain. It's like in getting into the story, you have to come to grips with. Here's a group of Native Americans that kind of. Kind of had slaves. This story involves a Native American that was a West Point graduate that went to fight against Native Americans. It involves a person that is able to ally himself with Native American forces who is a freed slave fighting alongside Native Americans who at the same time. The same individuals that at the same time kind of have some slaves. It involves a Native American war leader who is 1/8, maybe 1/8, 1/8 Native American that is mostly genetically, not culturally.

[Jamie Holmes]

Right.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Not spiritually, but like through weird circumstances is like genetically a Western European.

[Jamie Holmes]

It's.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

There is a lot, a lot to. To like unpack in this story.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, it's such a. It's such a complex story. How to set the table for it.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, I know, I know. If you don't have an idea, I'll tell you what I think you should do.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

How did. I mean, I'm curious.

[Jamie Holmes]

Tell Me what you think? I'm curious how you got. Go ahead. Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

How we go from behavioral economics to.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I wondered that the whole time. Why did you even write the book? I was wondering about that.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. Well, the Bridge is my second book, which is 12 seconds of silence, which is completely within this genre, which is historical narrative nonfiction with a ton of archive work. I did a lot of original archive work. Oh, yeah, you did some of the archive work. I. I found contradicts some of the assumptions that we've had about the story. And there's. There's a lot of things that are back.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

That are central to the. Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Zoom in on this, Bill.

[Jamie Holmes]

There's a lot of things that are.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

This is the son of a bitch in notes.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

So if you're one of those guys that looks at a book and he's like, I can't read that. It's too long. Don't read the notes.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

I sat down.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It makes it like, look at how then how. Look attractive. It is.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

I sat down with it 24 hours ago, and I thought, there's no way I'm going to get through this. And then I flipped to the end of the actual last chapter, and I thought, eh, it's a pretty good chance.

[Jamie Holmes]

I'll tell you why I did that, and then I'll answer your question about how I got to it. Because I think one of the things that Clay said on his first podcast is like, imagine if somebody from a foreign country came and observed you, and maybe they had a political agenda. And almost all of the documentation about you is from these outside observers. What kind of an evidence base would you be dealing with?

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That's an interesting point.

[Jamie Holmes]

So that's the kind of evidence base that's. And the evidence base is messy, and it's full of contradictions, and it's full of biases, and it's full of errors. The newspapers at the time are making stuff up, so there's a lot of mythology. So as I began to get my way closer to what I thought the story was, I realized I had to kind of do a separate book in the back for the academics and say, okay, here's where I think this academic says this. I don't think that's right. Here's my evidence, and I'm gonna lay it all out. Cause I wanted to keep the front of the book just a story. I came to it just as a storyteller and just wanting to enjoy the story. Explore the archives myself very quickly. And then I'll return to your point. There's a great quote that says, the past is a foreign country, and it comes from a 1950s Edwardian novel. But there's a scholar named David Lowenthal who did a famous book with that title, the Past is a Foreign Country. And it's really about history and then heritage as mythologized history. But the idea of a history book and writing and reading about history as an exploration. I know you've traveled a lot. I've traveled some. Going to a foreign place at first, kind of being overwhelmed by the weirdness and the difference of it, and slowly starting to pick up clues as to what these different things mean that are new to you, and then also having that experience reflect back on you. So you're exploring the world, and then it's also reflecting on how you. What is normal? They do it like this. I thought this was normal. So it's changing your view of yourself as you're exploring. I think in that way, it's a lot like travel writing. So I came to it with that, with that goal to just selfishly explore the story that I was interested in and do as much archive work as I could. After I did this book on science, my first book, I kind of got disenamored with it a little bit for various reasons that are not very interesting. But I love writing.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Just enamored with what?

[Jamie Holmes]

With psychological science.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. Um, and I. But I. But I love writing, and I love narrative writing. I kind of started off wanting to do fiction before I got into nonfiction. And so I thought, well, this is a genre. I really like Eric Larson's books and David grand stuff. Like, I love this genre. Maybe this is a place I can reinvent myself a little. So 12 seconds of silence is. It's. I'm very proud of that book. It's about World War II and these group of scientists. So science was kind of the bridge from the first book to the second book. And it's about a group of scientists who. World War II, who invent this new weapon to shoot down airplanes, and they take down a Nazi superweapon with it. So I fell in love with archive work during that process. Like, you're digging in the crates. You're going to these. You're going to the Library of Congress, you're going to the nara, the National Archives and Records Administration. It's kind of like a treasure hunt. And, you know, so just a couple things in here that nobody has. They didn't have Abraham's Indian name. Right. If you look it up online, it's gonna be wrong. I mean, I haven't changed the Wikipedia. I actually think that he was born among the Seminoles and not a former slave from Pensacola. And I have good evidence for that in the back of the book. So there's a lot of things that I added and a lot of things that I discovered. New archival evidence that, you know, historians get to debate and disagree with and move forward in that way. But so I fell in love with it with my second book, and then I just found this story and jumped in. And it was a different archival challenge because of where the archives are for this story. The last one, it was almost all in D.C. so I moved to D.C. for it. This one, all of the archives, the best archives, are really written by soldiers either in the army or their militia or their volunteers. And all of those archives are all across America. I mean, there's some military files in D.C. there's some important people that have stuff at the Library of Congress, like Andrew Jackson, like the main general, Thomas Jessup, but all of the soldiers diaries, and those are really the best records. It's like state historical societies and universities. So, you know, I went poking around main historical. Oh, here's a journal that's not been cited before. So that was fun. And I love that part of it. And then you kind of sit with all of these contradictions and you try to distill the story that makes sense as far as you can make sense of it. That's awesome.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Can you start by when I was kicking around how to get into this, I thought, let's start with the thing that was most confusing to me. And then I'm just going to trust that it's going to be a thing that's very confusing to other people. I always thought that there was a tribe, and I just assumed the tribe had been in existence for a thousand years, that there was a tribe of people that were the Seminole. Can you explain how that group of people came to coalesce, where that name came from, who they were, what you're. When you say Seminole, what are you saying?

[Jamie Holmes]

Sure, it's a good question. So Seminole comes from the Spanish cimarron, which is sometimes translated as runaway or untamed. I think it was originally in reference to undomesticated cattle, horses. I think to some degree, the. The Seminole tribe of Florida doesn't like the runaway designation untamed.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

But just quickly, that is a thing that is very common in European nomenclature for tribal peoples is we use a lot of words that were not their words, but we'd be allied with or make contact with a tribe.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

The tribe would be like, well, I'll tell you what I call them. And that would become the name.

[Jamie Holmes]

There's a word for that. It's called an exonym name given by an outside group. And then to some degree, those names can be reclaimed and they take them back. But to answer your question, originally, there's an estimate of 25,000 Indigenous people in Florida. This is at Spanish contact.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

Those including the Timucuins, like some others, those people were wiped out. You know, those people were gone. By the time the Seminoles come down from disease, from military conflicts, the people that became the Seminole and even the Mikazuki tribe, which is down there, come from the Creek confederacy. Creek, another exonym, the Muscogee people. And these are kind of loose confederations. And what happens with the Seminoles is you have Americans, settlers coming down, pressuring people in what is now Georgia and Alabama. And you have the elements of the Creek confederacy starting to acculturate. Starting. You have some intermarrying.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. Tell people what that means. Acculturate.

[Jamie Holmes]

Acculturate, meaning they're starting to adopt the customs of the Anglos and then the Americans. And eventually you have Creek enslavers running plantations at scale. So they're growing crops and they're having slaves at that scale. I mean, that's the degree of acculturation.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

People of Creek descent, like Creek descent have. But they own deeded land.

[Jamie Holmes]

A portion of them. No, it's not deeded, no.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay, so they're running plantain operations on open, unclaimed lands.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I see.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes. So you have this split within the Creek confederacy, this schism, and it's sort of continuing in the 1790s. It sort of becomes even more dramatic as to, are we going to adopt these new ways, which is like, okay, we've got hunting rifles, Our clothes are changing. We're buying things at markets. The things that women used to make or we're now purchasing. Are we gonna shift fully into agriculture? They were growing things, but also hunting. So there are all these pressures that are changing the culture. And of course, the settlers are pushing them out, and there's military conflicts and all that. The Seminoles, the main seminal force, the main body of the people who came to be called Seminoles, came in three phases.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Would you mind tying this real quick to known American history just to remind, like, where are we in terms of the post revolution?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, yeah. So the first wave of people that became Seminoles is 1700 1750. So this is pre revolution, and they broke apart from the Creek Confederacy and decided, we're gonna go with the old ways. We're not going to change.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

So they're having this debate about do we adopt what would become American ways? But they're having this conversation before America exists.

[Jamie Holmes]

As America is coming to exist, and then after the revolution as well.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

So one of the dramatic things that happens. So anyway, I'll quickly answer the immigration thing, because you brought up an important point, and then I'll get back to this creek split. 1750, another wave around 1790, another wave around 1814. You have a bunch of groups down in Florida at this time that Americans all call Seminoles, even though the Americans knew they were not all Seminoles. So you have Seminoles. The main two to remember are Seminoles and Mikazuki. You also have some people who still identify as Creeks down there. You have some Talassies, some Yuchis, some Tallahassees. And in American newspapers, they're all called Seminoles. I think in part because it makes it easier to sell the treaty if it's all one people. All one people agreed to this treaty to leave, but really it's fragmented. And at the time, they don't identify as one group, really. You know, I have something that Abraham wrote at the Chief. Abraham wrote at the time where he's listing the different groups. Now, later, after the Seminole wars, those groups began to reclaim that term and identify all as Seminoles.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

But at the time, they were not thinking of themselves that way, even though it appears that way in American newspapers. And of course, this causes a lot of confusion because if you have a split between the Seminoles and Mikazukis and you call them all Seminoles, you can't understand what's going on. You can't read the situation.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

So there's a lot of confusion that comes from, of course, the generals, the people closest to the story. They know very well. They're highly aware. But in a lot of things, they.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Know they're dealing with different groups, different leaders with different motivations, with different objectives. But the story is we're fighting Seminoles.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's exactly right, yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

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[Jamie Holmes]

The greatest schism in one of the great schism. You know, there's a war, of course, in 1813, 1814, called the Creek War. In a way, it's a civil war, but going back to the 1790s, there's a very interesting part of this story where the Creeks are allied with the British, the Upper Creeks, I think, and they're attacking against. They're fighting the Americans during the Revolution, and they're attacking what's there. What's there. It's plantations. And they're taking POWs, which is the old way. You would always take POWs. You didn't care what skin color they were, and you would either kill them, adopt them into the tribe, or make them servants. Not agricultural workers on a farm, but they would be servants, and their children would be free. Their children could be part of the tribe, which is important. And the Seminoles still practice that as late as 1774. Now the Creeks start to change, and in about 1790. Okay, well, if we're. If we're going to practice the other way, then enslavement is going to be by skin color, and it's going to be transgenerational. So I'm going to own your children, and we're going to do it by skin color. And that is a radical change in Creek culture.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That was a term that I had to look up. I'd seen it a thousand times. I don't even know how to pronounce it. Yeah, Chattel shad.

[Jamie Holmes]

Like chattel slavery.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. And it was like I'd seen that where I never looked it up. Reading your book. I look it up, and it's like this concept that I own you.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You're my servant, and your child is my servant.

[Jamie Holmes]

It's dramatic. That's dramatic.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. It's an interesting distinction.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And so I think a number of the people who became black Seminoles were children of POWs who escaped down to the Seminoles, who had a more open view of this. As Creek culture is changing, that's for sure part of the story. So, yeah, it's really the pressure from the north and then these various groups coming down and identifying generally as Seminoles, even though they're not exactly that yet.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Where does as these groups get pushed down? Oh, you know, there's another thing I want to talk about before we get there, because it's part of the pushing down can you explain the. Was it the Red shirts or Red arrows? What was it?

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

The red sticks.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Red sticks.

[Jamie Holmes]

I will. But you brought up something and I didn't respond to it. Chattel slavery, so. And then I'll get to the red sticks, so. Chattel slavery. Right. I own you. I own your children. But it's basically, you're a piece of property. And what they wanted to do after, especially after 1831, when you have Nat Turner's Rebellion, it was illegal to teach a slave to read. So the rules are basically, I can sell you. I can split apart your family. You're not going to have any knowledge. I don't want you knowing anything. I'm not. You're not going to be allowed to read. Right. You're not going to be allowed to travel freely. And these rules vary on different plantations. You can't travel without a pass, and you can't accumulate wealth. And then if you look at the rights of the black Seminoles, almost all of them worldly, they speak two or three languages, they have vast wealth, they're traveling freely. And there's a rule, according to Wiley Thompson, who's Andrew Jackson's Indian agent, that it is illegal to sell them. And their constant promise is not to split up the families. Now, laws get broken, but that's apparently a law. Now, when Americans take over Florida, you have this population. I would say there's 500 black Seminoles estimated. I would say about 100, are servants by the old Muskogee way, which is not hard labor. And it's sort of a system of tribute where you get a portion of your. Of the corn that you grow, which sounds to me like a tax more than slavery. And then you have about 400 who are claiming to be slaves. The quote is, they all pretended to be free. I mean, all pretended to be purchased. And if they're children of. Of POWs from the revolution, they're not gonna have any papers proving that. Of course, the Creeks can't prove that they own them. So in a way, they're more free to go down to Florida. But in a way, they're vulnerable because there's no paperwork. So you have. When America takes over Florida, it becomes the territory of Florida in 1821. It's different than the Spanish policy where you really had three groups of people and it was pretty easy to free yourself if you're an enslaved person. Florida doesn't want to do that. They want to have. And in fact, when they write their constitution, it becomes a State in 1845. They try to ban all African Americans who are free from entering Florida. They're not allowed to do that, but they tried to do that because they.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Wanted to clean it up. They wanted to clean up all the confusion. But who was who?

[Jamie Holmes]

You don't. Yeah, yeah. You don't want. They didn't want free black people there as a bad example to the enslaved population. That was their idea. So the Black Seminoles are claiming to be slaves in an environment where you cannot have a large free black population. In a way, they are using it as protection. And I'm sure there was variation.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

So I'd rather be these guys, quote slave, then your slave. Slave.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And you don't want to be vulnerable to being enslaved.

[Jamie Holmes]

Exactly.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

If you're already someone else's property in the eyes of the outsiders, they can't take you.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's the game. So Abraham owns his son Renti as a slave.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah. I thought that was the paperwork, that when they have a kid, they establish all this paperwork that their kids are owned by them.

[Jamie Holmes]

Chief Micanopy sells the child, and you go and you write it down in the record books of the local, you know, administrators. There's a family that goes and tries to write down the free status of their children in three different record books. So they're trying to protect their children. They know a day is going to come that claims are going to be made on them, and they want to be able to say, look at the record books at Palatka, at Fort Brooke, or, you know, Tampa Bay. So that's what's happening mostly. And you have historians in the past who have said, oh, they say they're all slaves. They're all slaves. It's more complicated.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, yeah. I still want to get to the Red Sticks, but I want to talk about the slavery thing for a minute.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Just because this becomes a big part.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You had mentioned that there's almost like a reverse. There's like a Southern railroad.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Where if you. In the Deep South.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

If you're an escaping slave. Yeah. It's understood among slave communities that an option. If you can't get north, an option is to get South.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. That's such. It's. Yeah. So as early as I want to say something like 1685, it's in. It's the late 17th century. The Spanish adopt a policy in which an escaped slave can come down, say that they're Catholic, join the army, and they will back up their rights. So there's this deal that's going down. If you can get down there if you're willing to fight, the authorities down there will recognize your status. I mean, we do this in the United States military today. Right. You can get a fast track to citizenship if you serve in the armed forces, in the American armed forces. This is a very old deal going back to antiquity. Soldiery for civil rights. And then some people are coming down to Florida and leaving. You know, you can get down to the Caribbean, you can get down to Spanish Cuba. So that's happening as well. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, the interior of Florida. And then we'll get back to the Red Sticks. The interior of Florida is not settled. There's no minerals to extract, and the Spanish don't try to settle it, and neither do the British. I mean, there are some Spanish missions, but it's really the coasts. It's kind of a strategic buffer. Spain comes, they settle St. Augustine. I think it's 1565 or 63, something like that. And they lose it to Britain very quickly because they side with the French in the French and Indian War. French lose, Britain takes over. Then the Spanish side with us in the American Revolution. They attack British Florida both from Spanish Louisiana and from Cuba. They take it back over, but it's still a strategic buffer. It's like, you don't really want to live there. It is like Greenland. You want it. It's the Greenland of its day. So to the Red Sticks.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I got a comment about.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, go ahead.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

How in your description of Florida. Yeah, that is funny because you hear. You have these, like, the E. Like, if you look at a map now, you'd be like, oh, it's the eastern U.S. yeah. And you have in. In your head that there's like, Boston and Philadelphia and Charleston. You're like, that's the whole settled part.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

By these dates.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And it made me think of MacArthur had this approach in World War II, where he would just shoot through areas and just pass everybody up and grab cities. And he'd be like, we'll sort that out later.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like, instead of. Instead of rolling along on a unified front, he would now and then just bust through.

[Jamie Holmes]

It sounds like a blitzkrieg.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And then. Yeah. And then be like, well, no, I know we drove past tons of people, but we'll just get them later.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like, I just want to keep moving. Yeah. And you think of in a little bit, like, when you imagine your mind's eye, the settlement and United States effication of the continent, you imagine it being this line.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

But it has all these like, Mrs.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like, it misses Florida for a while. It misses the Mississippi Delta. And they just kind of go, like, we'll get to that later. Then the Great Plains, you know, San Francisco's a big city. So, like, oh, they're done. They're done conquering the thing. Like, oh, no, we left off a huge. We left off the Great Plains. We'll come back and get to that later, you know.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. By 1835, you have everything up to the Mississippi, except maybe parts of, like. I don't know what the Mississippi does when it gets super far north. It may go into Minnesota or something, but basically it's. Michigan and Florida are the only places that are not states. And Florida is the least settled, and it's the most sparsely populated. You have 15 million people in the US at that time. You have. Almost all of it is rural, really small cities. New York's like 200,000. 70. 70% of people are working on farms. It's like most of the country is. Is farming and hunting and fishing and. And Florida is really these cities. And you have, you know, in 20. We take it over. We take over Florida. It becomes the territory of Florida. In 1821, we. One of the first things they do is they move the tribes into an Indian reservation in the center of Florida. But we don't. It's unmapped. The middle of Florida is unmapped. We have maps for less than half of it. There's, you know, there's a quote. We know less about the interior of Florida than the interior of China. At some point in the war, there's a general who has to go to a bookstore to buy a map of Florida. That's the best map he can get of the territory. So Florida is lagging. And, you know, the bottom half. A lot of it's because it's not good for farming. You know, the bottom half of it. You've been to Lake Okeechobee, I think below that, the Natural Everglades. Like, you're not farming there.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

So the Red Sticks is. You know, there's. This is about the split in the Creek Confederacy. And Osceola comes from the Red Sticks, and they fought against Andrew Jackson. They're the Upper Creeks. The Lower Creeks were called the White Sticks, by the way. Red Sticks. Baton Rouge. The Red Sticks. Oh, yeah. And they fight. And Jackson fights with the White Sticks against the Red Sticks.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Are these colors related to skin color or totally coincidental?

[Jamie Holmes]

Coincidental.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

It's the Red War Club that they had. I guess it was painted red.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Got it.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. Baton. The Stick. Red stick.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And so there's the Battle of Horseshoe Bend. I want to say it's 1814, where Jackson and the white sticks have a resounding defeat, and they kill 800 red sticks. There's reportedly 20 or so survivors. And, you know, widows and orphans come down in Florida, and Osceola is part of that group. So, you know, he's in Florida. Then Jackson, you know, the guy who killed his people, becomes president, and he's got to sit in these meetings where Jackson's representative says, you know, please leave. I'm your friend. I'm trying to help you. And so, you know, he comes out of this deep scar of seeing real violence when he's young. He comes down to Florida when he's 10. So he's carrying this profound trauma of seeing his people split in two.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

And he starts to see it again happen in Florida, and, you know, he won't. He won't stand for it.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

One thing that Clay got right in his series on the seminal wars in Osceola is Clay starts it out with John Lee Anderson's Seminal Wind. Tell me the famous song. Blow, Blow, Blow. Seminal Wind. Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And Clay's favorite part of Seminal Wind is when the guy sits on a cypress stump and he can hear the voice of Osceola cry. And this was a huge, like, huge country song. And it would be. Probably. My guess would be that that would be the same way. We recently interviewed individual about the Edmund Fitzgerald. And like the. This Gordon Lightfoot's. The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald is many people's passageway into knowing that there is a thing, a shipwreck called the Edmund Fitzgerald. I would say Seminole Wind for many people was probably their introduction to these terms for people far away from Florida.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And Osceola, too, you know, he's still the icon of the Florida Seminole football team.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. So explain his background, Osceola, because he's gonna. As we're gonna get into the wars, he emerges as a primary figure. And you focus on. You might as well do this. You focus on Osceola.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You focus on Abraham. So can you give us some biographical sketch of these two, like, really different folks?

[Jamie Holmes]

Sure. Yeah. So I broke down a little what he came out of as a boy. He's Creek. He allies himself with a powerful Mikazuki chief named Sam Jones, or Abiaka. We called him Sam Jones. And he's a military enforcer figure for him. He's one of the most famous Native Americans in American history. I mean, he's everywhere in the Press, he's in European papers. He becomes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

In his day.

[Jamie Holmes]

In his day, yeah. In his day, he becomes this mythologized figure. His character is. How would I describe his character? He's an angry young man.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

When we meet him in the book is when he's imprisoned for five or six. I mean, that's a vivid anecdote.

[Jamie Holmes]

I could start there.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

It's a memorable introduction to him.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

So Andrew Jackson sends down this Indian agent, Wiley Thompson, down to Florida, down to this place called Fort King, which is present day Ocala. And Thompson's job is really to convince them to leave without a war. It's okay, because they don't want to spend the money on a war. So it's cheaper to send someone down and kind of try to convince them I'm your friend and if not, we'll fight a war. But we're really friends and I'm a nice federal guy. And these locals, geez, these local, they're kind of corrupt, actually. At one point he says, you've been cheated in the past by these locals, but, you know, all Bad Men are not yet dead. Which I wanted for the title. All Bad Men, they wouldn't let me have it. All Bad Men are Not Yet Dead. So anyway, he sends him down here and Osceola, who knows who Jackson is, who knows American intentions, has to sit in these council meetings and listen to letters written by Jackson saying, killed his family. Yeah. So he's like, I gotta sit here and listen to this. So he storms into Wiley Thompson's office in, I wanna say, April 1835. It's before the war begins by about eight months. And he cusses him out and he says, you say that we have to leave, like you have to leave. You say that it's gonna be bad for us, it's gonna be bad for you. There's a quote. I'm not sure if it's true because there's so much mythologized, but I put it in, but it appears in 19, a little later, after the war, 1853. And he says, I'm gonna kill you and I'm gonna leave your body out in the rain. And the sun is gonna turn your skin black and the vultures are gonna pick the flesh off of you. And. Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Which was, as we'll get into, is oddly prophetic.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's what happens.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Not oddly prophetic.

[Jamie Holmes]

It's what happens. So this is the second time, or at least in Thompson's records. He says I had warned him before, you can't talk to me that way. And so Osceola, he doesn't do anything.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

When Osceola Thompson says, I've told you before, don't come and say this to me.

[Jamie Holmes]

In his records when he's explaining this incident, he said I had warned him before, you can't insult me this way. You can't threaten me in this way. And then he said he did it again. So this had happened before.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I see.

[Jamie Holmes]

He doesn't do anything when.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. So on this big, well known tirade.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And Thompson says, this isn't the first time.

[Jamie Holmes]

It's not the first time this has happened. And so he locks him up. Now, he doesn't personally do it. He waits till osceola leaves. And 200 yards outside of the agency house, he has four guards wrestle him to the ground. And they struggle and they lock him up for six days. And Osceola is stewing in what passes for a prison. They call it the guardhouse. And the next day he says, okay, I've changed my mind.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, yeah, well, let's jump in. But he can't convince him that he's calmed down. So he's like, send this other guy. I'll convince him that I've calmed down and then he'll convince you that I've calmed down. Because this is all just so.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, that's a good correction.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

I don't know.

[Jamie Holmes]

Because that actually becomes important.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

This was a very memorable story for me.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, that becomes important. So there's a creek cattleman who's a chief, whose name is Charlie Amothla. And he's faced with the same decision everyone else is, which is, you know, leave or it's war more or less. Do you want to put your family through that? He's got two daughters, he's got a seven year old kid, he's Creek. He knows what happened in present day Alabama and Georgia. You know, what do you want to risk? Do you want to risk it? Are you going to put your. So he decides to leave. Now, some literatures call him a friendly chief. It's not the correct word, but he's decided to leave. And so Osceola says, bring Charlie a mothla. You trust him, he's leaving and I'll talk to him. And he does. He convinced that there's no record of what they said. But. But Charlie Amothla goes to Thompson and he says, you know, I'm sure he gets it. He just had a. He just lost his temper, but he understands that he's gonna go and you should release him. And he'll come back with 80 of his people, and they'll, you know, true to their professions, they will pledge that they're gonna go west, they're gonna immigrate with the rest of us. And that's what happens. And not to jump ahead, but Osceola kills Amothla in front of at least one of his daughters as a warning to other leaders not to break off, not to leave, because he doesn't want to happen. What happened in Alabama and Georgia, what happened to the Creek Confederate?

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

How does he kill him?

[Jamie Holmes]

There are a few different stories. Some of them seem to me to be clearly made up. The famous version. So he goes with Abraham, Chief Abraham, who's the chief of the Black Seminoles. All the stories put them together. They go to a mothla. One story is they meet him at a mothla's house, and Abraham says, you really shouldn't go. You wanna stay, fight with us, keep your army with us. You can't have the army size cut in half, which is what would have happened. And eight of the 13 chiefs at first agreed to go. So you're gonna have your fighting force cut in half. So Abraham says, don't go. He's trying to convince him. Osceola tries to convince him. He. He's not going to change his mind. By one version, Osioda raises a rifle to him, and Abraham hits the rifle in the air, preventing his murder. I don't know if that's true. Another version is he killed Imathla on the road. So one of the things that they were going to do before the immigration is they agreed to buy all the Seminole cattle. So they arranged an auction. And I think it was going to be December 1st. And we're going to have an auction of all your cattle. So you. Because you can't bring that with you. So the story goes. Who would be.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, just go ahead.

[Jamie Holmes]

Sorry. Not at all.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Who's going to buy the cattle?

[Jamie Holmes]

Locals.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

White folks.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. You got. You have 16,000 white settlers there.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Since we're making you all leave and you can't bring your cattle, we'll give.

[Jamie Holmes]

You a fair price.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Your new neighbors, these white folk, will buy your cattle at a reasonable price at an auction.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And these people have been sitting there for, you know, a decade or more, kind of rubbing their hands, waiting for the government to do something about the tribes.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes, they have. That's right. They're certainly ready for this. And they're ready to become a state, and they want to settle the state. So in their minds, that means the native population has to go. So one of the stories is a Mathla was paid for his cattle. He's taking gold back away from the auction, and Abraham is with Osceola. And Osceola shoots him and takes the gold and scatters the gold over his body. And he goes to Abraham, who's in danger of being enslaved, and he says, see this as the price of your blood, in a way. See this as the price of your freedom. The problem with that story is it happens five days before the auction.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

So I love details like that.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It's probably a good story.

[Jamie Holmes]

So the story that I believe in, it's a very mundane story. And it circulates. I want to. In Jacksonville right afterwards. Primary source. And it says that he shot him while he was gathering his cattle for the auction in front of one of his daughters.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That lines up with the calendar.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. It's more plausible. It's not as dramatic.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Guns him down.

[Jamie Holmes]

Guns him down. And this becomes controversial. And I think it's to some extent controversial to this day in the Seminole tribe of Florida, you know, and Motla has ancestors too, as descendants, too. How are we supposed to look at this? On one hand, you understand where Osceola is coming from. He's trying, you know, he wants to fight. On the other hand, you're gonna kill a guy in front of his daughter who's trying to avoid war. It's tough, but that's what happened.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Should we take this up to. Let's finish up with Thompson.

[Jamie Holmes]

Sure.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Before we tell the story of Abraham.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. Do you want me to kill Thompson?

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Sure.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

So we already kind of broke it by saying that he says, here's what's gonna happen.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. So Osceola gets out of jail. As soon as Thompson hears about Imothla's murder, he knows it's game over. And he writes Washington and he says military force is going to be needed, more or less. I failed.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like, these guys aren't gonna leave.

[Jamie Holmes]

Willfully not happening. And now that he did that, it has the result that they. No, Asiola didn't do this alone. I'm sure that superiors to him told him kill him offla. In any case, this wasn't a rogue action. I don't think he had complete consensus, but it's not him out on his own. So. Yeah. And so you have a number of the people who are going to leave, who are going to immigrate. They stay. So it does have the effect that he wants. So Thompson says, okay, I failed. And he's kind of waiting around to go back home to Georgia. And that's when you have a few of the most dramatic events of the war and in the book happen at the same time, one of which is the assassination of Wiley Thompson by Osceola and 40 Mikazuki warriors, or the killing at Fort King. They have a war council, and you have troops coming up from Tampa Bay, from Fort Brooke. You have 100 troops that are marching up what's called the Fort King Road. It's right through the heart of the Indian reservation. And they're planning to attack the Seminoles and the Black Seminoles. And they have a date for the attack, December 31st. And so they meet in council. They say, okay, we've got two priorities. We've got to get Thompson out of the way, and we've got to handle DADE and these 108 men who are marching up towards our reservation. And Osceola says, I'll take Thompson. He's my friend, and I will see to him. And so he goes up to, you know, he's ordered to attack the fort. The Fort only has 50 soldiers at the time. But he waits in ambush. He waits for over a day. He later says he lured Thompson's spirit to him. He waits in the woods near. So there's the agency house where Thompson lives and works, and then there's a little sutler store, which is a civilian, like, storekeeper guy, and he's got some clerks, and that's some yards, maybe 800 yards or away from down. Away from the fort. So Thompson and a companion, I think an officer, they're having dinner. They decide to have a smoke after dinner. Let's have a little stroll with our cigar. And he walks down near the sutler store near these woods where Osceola and 40 warriors are waiting. And Osceola's war cry is heard. It's apparently a distinctive, shrill war cry. There's two other chiefs there who are denoted by chiefs by their attire and. But nobody knows who they are. Osceola has already gotten famous for killing Imatla in the American press. He's also gotten notoriety for being loud in council. So his fame starts off because he's the most vocal. So we sort of, you know, the records track him because he's put a target on his back, in a way, in his own back. And Thompson is shot 14 times, I believe there's a deep knife wound to his breast. He is scalped. There may be a clubbed musket to his head. It's pretty gruesome. The storekeeper also killed in the same manner.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

What about the dude he was having a smoke with?

[Jamie Holmes]

That guy dies, too. Whoops.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

No surprises in this story.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, that guy dies, too. And the troops think it's a feint. They think it's a distraction. And they fortify in the fort. They get one of the bodies the next day, and they bury Thompson at the fort temporarily. And then his wife gets him back, and his bones go back to Everton, Georgia, and she keeps his bones under her bed for a year. Yeah. How about. That's a different time period.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, man.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And that's the start of the war. And simultaneously, Abraham and Chief Micanopi, who's the head of the. He's the head of. He's the Seminole chief, but he's also ostensibly the head of all of the tribes and bands attack. Dade.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Tell us about before we get into that attack, which is fascinating. And what do you pick up?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

With Osceola staking out to kill this guy.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And then the. The.

[Jamie Holmes]

The. The.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I know some people call it the Dade massacre. The Dade fight. Whatever you gather, man, these dudes are like one with the swamp.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I mean, the. The ability to just vanish.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And to, like, stake up and hide.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And surprise people is astounding.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And there's like a big parallel here, I think, to a lot of stuff that I've read about slave rebellions in the Caribbean, where it's just the landscape and the ecology of that place is just sort of used almost as a weapon against the whites, whether they're colonists or the army.

[Jamie Holmes]

In this case, 100%. In fact, Colonel Taylor, who later becomes president, but he later leads the forces in Florida, and he says the climate and the terrain are much more lethal than the enemy. One of the things that they say that he also says. He says, we try to catch them. This is later in the war when they have fled from us. Not once have we been able to overtake them. There's one of your videos where you say, I think maybe you're in South America where you're like, there's no way that I could move through the bush as quickly as some of these indigenous.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Some of the dudes that are from there.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

No, you can't.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And the soldiers are laden down. You know, they're carrying things. They're carrying. They don't know how, you know, they've got rations, they've got heavy ammunition. They've got their heavy uniforms. And the Seminole forces are living off the land. They know where the food is. They Know where the dry places are. They know where the crossings of the.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Rivers are, which the architects vanish into the water. Man. They, like, eat alligators. They catch fish. They dig roots, they find oranges.

[Jamie Holmes]

They do all of that very successfully. And it's General Jessup who's a main figure of the book. He says at one point, the nature of the country is such that an army of 500 could hold it against an army of 10,000 or something like that. You know, if we call it a war, but if you're gonna use the landscape against the enemy, that's not normally how we think of a war. We think of a war where I meet you on the battlefield. We are agreeing to fight. Well, what if I don't agree to fight? Or what if I agree to fight on my terms? That is. Okay. I'm here in a perfect position for me to ambush you. Come over here. Come walk into my ambush. And so they selected the battlefields, and the army was forced to go into their chosen battlefields.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. There's a comment someone makes in. I don't know if you covered it in your book or if I heard someone mention it in Clay's piece, but it would be that they would fight as long as it was going the way they wanted it to go. But they were not beholden to sort of a battle plan.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

If things look good for an ambush, we'll do the ambush. If they don't, we're out of here.

[Jamie Holmes]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And what have you achieved if everyone gets away? It's the use of the land and the slow. They hire topographers. How do we figure out where we're going? Where is everyone? And they disperse intentionally. There's a general named Scott who is briefly the head of the war in Florida, and he has, like, a Napoleonic handbook for, like, for, you know, fighting in lines in fields. And this is bush fighting. They're not used to this. They're not used to guerrilla warfare. That's what this is. There's an early event in the war in which a mailman is killed, a messenger is killed, and he's going up the Fort King Road, and it's a hit and run. It's boom. They take care of business, and they're gone. And there's a moment where the general realizes. He says, okay, I have 700 troops at max. That should be enough. Oh, unless they use hit and run tactics. And then he sort of writes a panicked letter like, we might be in trouble here, because if they're not going to meet us in a Mass. That's a whole different kind of warfare. One soldier calls it a hunt. This has devolved into a hunt. And a lot of people quit because of that. There's no glory to be had in that kind of fight.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. You quote different guys, soldiers that get sent down there, and after a couple days, they're like, this ain't what I signed up for.

[Jamie Holmes]

You know, there's.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I signed up for a big gunfight that we win.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's right. Now. That's right. Where's my gunfight? There's a sequence in which, you know, the war has started and you have in New Orleans reports in the newspaper of things that are not happening. It's like, oh, the Indians are killing all of the settlers and they're slaughtering everyone. And it's a war of extermination. This is not happening. But they're using as recruitment. And so there's an American flag outside of the customs house. And all the soldiers sign up and they take a. It's like social psychology. You were talking. There you go. There it is. Yeah. Well, that's what it is. So, I mean, if somebody said that to me, I would sign up. Like, okay, you know, let's go. Those are my people.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

When the truth is more like they're trying to get a Stay away from you. Out in the swamps, living a subsistence lifestyle.

[Jamie Holmes]

They just want.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Hoping you just go away mostly.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Abraham retreats into the COVID with lacuchie alone.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You gotta give Abraham's background in the Dade fight.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Cause this is early. We gotta back up to early in the war.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. There's a lot of exposition in this story. There's a lot of context. So Abraham is a. I love it. I love Abraham. He's a diplomat. He's very poised. He is nominally Micanopy's interpreter. So Micanopy is the Seminole chief. The whites think he's just the interpreter. He's more than that. He is also Micanopi's sense bearer, along with his cheap name jumper, the conciliers. The concierge. Yes. Like the privy councilor or the prime minister. He's the advisor. He's the keeper of the king's conscience. So he's the interpreter and the advisor. And he is. The traditional story is that he escaped from an owner in Pensacola. I found evidence that from him directly, he can't say where he was born, but he was born among the Seminoles in Florida. And there's several other pieces of evidence that, to me, without a doubt, say that he was born amid the Seminole.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Does his age line up like his age lines up with that potential?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, absolutely.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That he was maybe, maybe his parents were escaped slaves.

[Jamie Holmes]

It would not surprise me. If his parents were POWs taken in creek raids during the Revolutionary War. That would not surprise me.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

So his parents were maybe brought into Florida by the Creek. And then he. Because it wasn't chattel slavery, he rose to. He was born among the Seminole, rose to a position of prominence to where he's like a right hand man to achieve.

[Jamie Holmes]

He's formally adopted and he's formally freed in 1830. There's maybe 15 of this 500 or maybe 20 who are formally free.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

What else can I say about Abraham? He's described by the army as having a continence which none can read. He's described as a real Martin Van Buren, as a political animal. He speaks softly with a genteel emphasis. He is said to have a great deal of fun about him. He is said to be artful. He is said to have more wit in his left eye. Cause his right eye angles inward than most men do. In both.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

He's a regular Ben Franklin.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, well, he's a strange character to observers. You know, there's a role going back to at least 1802 where you have black interpreter advisors. So there's the. In the core seminal line, you basically have Cowkeeper and then you have King Payne and Bolek and then Micanope. And there's evidence tying Abraham to Paine. Now Paine was. And Paine had a black seminal advisor. I think his name was Harry. And he was involved in colonial diplomacy. So I think Abraham had black Seminole mentors who acted as translators and advisors for the tribe as early as 1802. And he comes into this position, I find him again in 1822 working as an interpreter, it appears as an apprentice for another black Seminole interpreter. And then he becomes the chief interpreter of the tribe. And he is also described in 1838 in a new Orleans newspaper as the chief principal interpreter of the tribe and the chief of the Iste Luste, which in the Muscogee language of the Cregan Seminole means chief of the dark people or chief of the black people.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And he's. And he dresses according to Seminole custom.

[Jamie Holmes]

He dresses in the seminal way.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

When he, when there's a trip he later takes as a. As an older man to New York. And they say he looks like Othello reborn.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You gotta be kidding me.

[Jamie Holmes]

No, that's what they say. He has, he. He has Less servility than is usually a parent in Africans south of the Potomac.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I want to get into brief tactical thing before we get into the date fighting, Abraham, because you're talking about Seminole dress as much as they're slipping up on people and tomahawking them unawares and everything. What's. What the red turbans are running around in.

[Jamie Holmes]

Are they wearing red turbans? There are a few of them, not all of them.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, but what, like, why that. Like, Osceola's always portrayed like that with a red turban. Something like a. What do you call it?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. I mean, you can look on the COVID there. That's a little later. That's 1852.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

And you can see Abraham has kind of a different style of turban, and they have this kind of a hard. Sorry for the mic side of a hard, circular thing that they've got there. I don't know what it is, so.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

But I might have picked this up. I don't know where I picked it up. So they didn't wear a red head cloth?

[Jamie Holmes]

No, not uniformly.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

No.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Why do people use the word turban in describing them? What are they talking about?

[Jamie Holmes]

Headdress. I think it's probably the closest reference that we would have to it. Headdress is probably more appropriate.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Got it. So if someone had some kind of cloth wrapped around, they might have described it as a turban.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. Abraham's got it on right there in the picture at the top there.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

For whatever reason, it strikes me as something that comes from African culture. Like, it's a blending of traditions.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. So there's one good way to introduce Abraham and kind of give you a picture of the black Seminoles is this wonderful folktale. It's a black Seminole folktale. And so there's a writer named Zora Neale Hurston. She was part of the Harlem Renaissance, and she goes down to Florida, and as part of the Federal works Project, you know, where they paid writers, part of the New Deal, to go and write things. And she goes down to Florida, and she hears this story about Uncle Monday, which I found. I have her original document. And the story of Uncle Monday is, in short, this is a story that locals are telling her 100 years after it happened. Uncle Munday was a great African medicine man of the crocodile clan that practiced kinship with the fierce reptiles. Not long after he was stolen from his home and taken to America, he escaped from Georgia or South Carolina and made his way down into the Indian country, which is now Florida. He and others settled among the Seminoles. This is the 1830s, the days of that haughty Osceola. That's a quote. And when the white men attacked, he led some of the Indian African forces in battle. They fought as fiercely as they could, but were defeated in the end or succumbed by the end by greater forces and weaponry. Abraham and the survivors met near the Blue Sink Lake to debate and decide what to do. He told the people what the deities had told him in a vision or a dream. That it would no longer. It's no longer of any use to keep fighting. Still, the medicine man would not yield to death or enslavement at the hands of the invaders. And he promised that he would change himself into an alligator and reunite with his reptilian kin in the Blue Sink Lake until the trouble was over. And so there is a ceremony on the banks of the Blue Sink where the people drum, African and Indian beats on their instruments. As Uncle Monday danced, he began to shift in form. His skin grew rough. His face grew long and very terrible. And he cried. His voice became like thunder. And in response, a thousand alligators bellow and come out of the Blue Sink. And he is now the largest of the reptiles. And he strodes regally into the Blue Sink. And they disappear altogether, bellowing into the lake. It was said that for many years. It was said that he remained in the Blue Sink for many years and that every so often he would transform back into a man and roam the land and. And cast his spells on the people. So what does this story tell you? What is it preserved, Going back to your point about bringing African traditions in and melding them with indigenous traditions?

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

You know, in Zambia, they still have a crocodile clan in northern Zambia. That may be too far east for the transatlantic slave trade, but Democratic Republic of Congo. Republic of Congo, Angola, Central West Africa. The Congo river, full of crocodiles. You have crocodile veneration. You have societies there that are matrilineal, like the Seminoles. So the royal line descends from uncle to nephew, not from father to son. You have clans. You have a spiritual relationship with the land. And what is this story now? You liberate yourself, and you come down and you find tribes that are matrilineal, that have a spiritual relationship with the land. And there are alligators there. And so how do you survive? You transform yourself. You're from the crocodile clan. You transform yourself into an alligator. I think that's the. And it's a magical act. There's something called African Seminole ethnogenesis there's a paper by this guy, Anthony Dixon, Ethno ethnic genesis, birth. And it's about how do you rebuild culture? You're stitching together your culture from various African traditions that are inherited by your parents, grandparents, and you want to meld them with native traditions. And that's what you're doing. And it's a profoundly creative. I mean, it's a magical thing to do that that's how you're going to survive. I think that's a beautiful summary of what they did. And it was all about this cultural melding.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

What a dude to have on the podcast, man.

[Jamie Holmes]

Thanks.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I mean, no, I'm sorry, not me. Yes. You don't mean me.

[Jamie Holmes]

You're great.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Just telling the story. I mean, the guy.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, he's the guy.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

But you too, you're here. We invited you on. We came and found you.

[Jamie Holmes]

Abraham would have been better.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

No, no, no. I'm not talking about even him. I'm talking about the dude. Uncle.

[Jamie Holmes]

Uncle Monday. Uncle Monday.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like, be like picture. Okay, you're in Africa. You probably get captured by African slave traders. You get sold to whites, they send you to North America. They send you to what would become the United States.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You get bought by another white guy, you get turned to plantation work, you escape.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You go south, you meet up with Indian tribes, then you turn around and start fighting the army of the people.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That's a hell of a journey.

[Jamie Holmes]

What a story. Yeah, what a story.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And then meanwhile, people are being born in the United States and not straying more than 40 miles. A lot of people, you're born, you don't stray More than 40 miles from where you're born. And you die with a hoe in your hand. Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, that's right. There is an oral history that puts one of Abraham's fighters as coming from Africa. The transatlantic straight Tate is officially banned in 1808, but there is a record of this guy and he remembers what it was like to be in Africa.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Oh, man. With Cargurus Discover, you can skip the filters and describe what you're looking for in your own words. Simply type what you want and Cargurus Discover instantly surfaces real listings that match your exact needs. It's no wonder Cargurus is the number one most visited visited car shopping site according to similar web's estimated traffic data. Buy or sell your next car today with [e-mail] Go to CarGurus.com to make sure your big deal is the best deal. That's C-A-R-G-U-R U S.com cargurus.com so we set up the dispersal of people out of Alabama and Georgia. The Creeks, people being displaced, pushed into Florida. The United States starts eyeballing that landscape. Settlers are moving in. President Jackson's like, these guys got to go. I'll send them out to Oklahoma.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yep.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

They. They're not cooperating. They send in the army under the command of this dude, Dade. And Dade's going to go up there and straighten them all out. Him and a hundred guys are gonna straighten them all out.

[Jamie Holmes]

Nicely set up. Nicely set up. Yeah. So after Charlie Amatla is killed, they send reinforcements. We need more troops. The problem is the troops are split. So you have Duncan Clinch with the main force, and it's to the north side of the Indian reservation. And then you have troops gathering on the Gulf coast in what is Tampa Bay. That's Fort Brooke. And four companies, the full companies, 50 men. So they send 200 men down, not all at once. Four companies down to back up the troops they have there. And the idea is they're going to march through the Indian reservation and they're going to meet up with Clinch and they're going to attack. That's the plan. And Dade is one of those groups coming over.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Got it. Got it. So the intention was never that. The intention was never that his hundred guys are going to pull this off. It's all part of bringing a bunch of guys together.

[Jamie Holmes]

It's. It's more interesting. It's. So you're. What happens is they're planning for a fight on the. On December 31st. They're waiting for the rest of the 200 troops. They only have, I think, two of the four boats, two of the. Two of the four companies are there. And you don't have many people in that garrison in Tampa Bay. So you're faced with a choice. You can march up the Fort King Road. Now, that's right in the middle of the reservation. It's 100 Mile Road. And you're going to go right through, you know, enemy territory. Do you want to do that with 100 men? Do you want to wait for the other hundred men to come? But we could miss the deadline for the fight, December 31st. So Dade, bravely or foolishly, depending on how you look at it, he said, I got this. I'll march up. No problem. I'll go right through the reservation. All I need is 100 people. And there are records of. There are a few native families. I think there's 300 people with 100 warriors who have chosen to immigrate and haven't changed their mind who are at Tampa Bay, across the Hillsborough river waiting for ships to take them up to New Orleans and then to Indian Territory, what becomes Oklahoma. And they're sure he's gonna die. And they say. And they say goodbye to him. I think it's December 23rd. And he's sure that they would never see him again. There's another guy there, Belton, and he says, I think you're crazy. I would rather resign if I were ordered to march up that road. There are people later who said, listen, why did you send troops down the Gulf Coast? You should have sent them down the Atlantic and you can go right down into Jacksonville. And then they already would have met up. So this is a bone of contention. Why were troops sent to Tampa? Because the only way to get to Clinch is to go right through the reservation. So they start this march through the reservation, and it's eerie. And their camps are harassed at night by Seminoles, by scouts who are following them, by gunfire. And I think it's the fifth night or the fourth night. Dade has a bad dream. He fought in the War of 1812. And he says, my fallen comrades came to me in my dream. This is apparently from a newspaper several years later. And they said their names. It's the most bizarre dream I've ever had in my life. Strange. And they walk. They've gone 60 miles of the 100. They're nearing a place called the Wahoo Swamp, which is a perfect place to retreat to. And they're in between Abraham's town, where he lived with about 100, maybe as many as 160 black Seminoles and this swamp and his forces and Micanopis and a chief named Alligator, and Jumper is there, set up an ambush. And there's a lake on the right side of the road. And their idea is, we're gonna pin them against the lake. They form a semicircle. And Dade walks into this ambush. And Micanopi calls out his name or yells and shoots him in the neck.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like the first guy.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, shoots him in the neck. And apparently he was eating a hardtack biscuit. And he yells, my God. And he falls off the horse and he dies. And then the first volley. Half of the command falls to the ground. Half the command dies in the first volley. One hundred and five ultimately are killed that day. It's the largest loss of life on the US Side in any fight with Native forces until Custer. The fight goes on all day the survivors of the initial volley kind of build a triangular log breastwork, a couple logs that they cut down and they stack them three logs high, or it's two logs high. And they try to hide behind it for some cover. The Seminole forces are very patient. There is a little hand to hand fighting, but generally they're very patient. They're firing from concealed positions and they're not risking their lives. They lose three people. 105 US forces are killed. They lose three.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

God, man.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And, you know, they finish them off in a sort of a brutal way with knife work. And there's some screaming and it's, you know, this fills the newspaper as a massacre. And that night, those forces and Abraham and Osceola meet in the Wahoo swamp. And they drink all night and celebrate and party. Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Because he's coming back from killing Thomas.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. Both missions were successful. Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

The thing that confused me in your book is what was up with the guys that they. When the. When they finally come to bury the bodies, they wait. They're not able to get there for a while.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. 54 days.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

What was up with the guys in the little. In the little fort they built?

[Jamie Holmes]

That's the breastwork.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. What was up with the guys in the breastwork? The bodies in the breastwork.

[Jamie Holmes]

Oh, goodness. So there's a description. There's a US Soldier. He says it looked like the bodies looked like they were toy soldiers arranged by a child in his play.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. I didn't understand what that meant. And he said, like, something about right angles.

[Jamie Holmes]

So you think, imagine this triangular breastwork of logs and you've got these bodies that are in various stages of decomposition. I think he's referring to the odd ways that the bodies were positioned.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. The right angle. He said something like they're at right angles. I couldn't tell what the hell he meant by that. I mean, it didn't sound. It didn't look great.

[Jamie Holmes]

I think he's saying it was weird. Like it was not natural. Got it. Got it.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

You know, and the jaws have dropped because the muscles are deteriorated and the fingers are kind of clawed up like this. And some say they were scalped. Some say they weren't the most reliable. What I thought. One person says there's too much deterioration to know if they were scalped, which seems probable. And they didn't rob them. I think they were sending a message. Before that ambush, they set out a cow in the road. A slaughtered cow in the road. And it's split wide open in the middle of the road. It's a warning sign. Don't come in here. We don't want to do this. And even Micanopy, before he shoots him there. There's evidence that he was hesitant. And he knows Dade. Dade has been there before. Dade has attacked native villages before. Okay. We warned you.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Now he gets a damn county name down.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Dade County.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Now we got Dade down in Miami, right?

[Jamie Holmes]

That's right. Dade County.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. That's him.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's Dade.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And you got Custer county is there.

[Jamie Holmes]

Oh, yeah, I heard that. That there's new research that says it wasn't exactly a last stand. Do you know anything about that? That the fighting was more spread out. It wasn't in one location.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Well, I wouldn't say new, but there's a. Custer wasn't the last. That his little hill.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Area.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Wasn't the last holdouts.

[Jamie Holmes]

Okay.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, yeah. It was a. You know, it was earlier in the fight.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It wasn't. You know, he wasn't the last guy standing there. Yes. For a better story.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Just in the.

[Jamie Holmes]

Cool.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

There was nothing that remarkable about his positioning, and it wasn't. It didn't build up to that moment.

[Jamie Holmes]

Right.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It was just part of a broader fight.

[Jamie Holmes]

Not the grand finale.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Part of a broader fight.

[Jamie Holmes]

Okay.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And was probably to the participants was like an unnoteworthy little spectacle in the fight.

[Jamie Holmes]

Okay. That makes sense.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Now that we're in the fighting, the parallels between this conflict and Vietnam are just almost too much to get into. But on a very superficial level, between the tactics and the strategy and then the duration of the conflict and the cost of the conflict.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And a feeling from the soldiers that they were maybe betrayed by Washington or not quite treat. You know, this is. What are we doing here? So if you look at. There's some military organizations, veteran organizations in Florida, and organizations that study the Seminole War, and a lot of the guys that were interested in it before were Vietnam vets, and then they were Iraq and Afghanistan vets.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Wow. Huh.

[Jamie Holmes]

And I think they. They see them. You know, they see the story as very similar.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

So after this Dade fight, there aren't big. There aren't big definitive battles to the point where I know that Clay had mentioned this, that if you start walking us through the conflict, the conflict never formally ended.

[Jamie Holmes]

No. No. So the survivors. As many as 600 in. Excuse me. In 1842, when the US sort of unilaterally withdraws. They never sign anything. The US says, oh, it's kind of over, and we won mostly. And the few survivors. It's only 300. It's probably double that. You know, we should be nice to them. It's because it's just so few. And it's really a noble gesture of us to be. To restrain ourselves and unilaterally withdraw. But that's why they call. That's why they call them the unconquered people, because there never is a capitulation. Sam Jones, who is the Mikazoki chief who really led it and their. He's really the big hero of the war for the survivors, for those who stayed in Florida, and Osceola is kind of one of his warriors. He outwitted them, he outlasted them. And he did it by setting up these villages on these little islands, these hammocks in the Everglades, connected by canoes. And when the army came, he would just go to the next one. And so he had this network of refuges and just let the land kill them. You know, there's a third conflict. There's a third seminal war where they try again. And I think 55 soldiers die, and it's a three year war. So, like, what is that? How do you describe that? You're wandering around and not fighting people dying of malaria. Yeah, yeah, There are some bigger battles, but. But the day. The date massacre, the day defeat, that's the largest death count.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Why do they break the wars into the. Why do they break it into the first seminal war? The second seminal war, which we've been mostly discussing, like, this Dade fight kicks off the second seminal war.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And then the third seminal war. Why? Because they're not as clean as like, World War I, World War II.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. The Seminole War III. You know, the Seminole tribe of Florida would agree with you. So.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Well, they would agree that this whole breaking it up, it's like these aren't different things. It's all the continuation of the same thing.

[Jamie Holmes]

They object to it.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay. I didn't know that.

[Jamie Holmes]

If you go on their website, they'll say, we object to this. We call it. We call it the Long war. Oh, they call it the Long war and they frame it as a, you know, continuing colonial aggression, trying to get them off the land. Which it was.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, but just for. Just for people's understanding.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

When they hear this first, second, third. Can you tell. Can you explain a little bit what that means? I want to get into, like, Osceola's capture and how that fits into this chronology of these wars. But first, what does it mean when someone says first, second, third?

[Jamie Holmes]

Absolutely. So the formal dates are 1817. 1818. That's the First Seminole War. And that's when you have Andrew Jackson coming down into Spanish Florida. There's a few fights. He burns some villages. It's nothing crazy. And then he retreats. And it's really what he's doing there. He's pressuring Spain to relinquish the territory to the United States. It's like, look, I had to go and do this police action. You've got trouble in your borders. You can't control it. And then he retreats. Claiming. Claiming victory. The second seminal war is most, as you say, focus of this. It's 1835, 1842.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

What happens in 1842?

[Jamie Holmes]

That's when the U.S. i think it's Tyler, President Tyler, he declares, we're done. He says, the war is over. We're not going to fight anymore.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Got it?

[Jamie Holmes]

He claims victory and withdraws the troops.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

This is the Tippecanoe and Tyler, too, right? Isn't that the guy?

[Jamie Holmes]

Is that him? I don't know anything about Tyler. I just remember his name. You're probably right.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Tippecanoe and Tyler, too.

[Jamie Holmes]

I'm sure you're right. I'm not kind of dictated.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

William Henry Harrison.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Anyhow, that'd be your next book.

[Jamie Holmes]

Okay, good. I'll look into it. And then the third effort is 1855 to 1858.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

So 13 years goes by, and then.

[Jamie Holmes]

Someone'S like, we're gonna try again.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Let's get into that.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

To root them out.

[Jamie Holmes]

Let's try again. And that's when they're down in the Everglades.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And that's the long.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Cat and mouse.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, it's cat and mouse. It's navy riverine warfare. And in the Everglades. In the Everglades. And it's not much action. They find empty villages, they burn the villages.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Cause they know they're coming, and they just move out of the way.

[Jamie Holmes]

Well, they find them. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And they have canoes. And they'll just go to another sanctuary. Okay, so.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

So that's the third seminal war.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's the third seminal war.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And to the Seminole, it's just the long war.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes. Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Do the Seminole view. I don't want you to put you in a position where you're like, well, you don't understand how they view it or their official stance.

[Jamie Holmes]

Tell you what, I know the Seminole.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Do they view that they. Is their story that they withstood and won?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Cause they're there.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, yeah. And there. And if you go to the. I went down to Florida to See a lot of the sites that are in there. And if you go to the Ahitiki Museum, which is a Seminole museum in what was the natural Everglades, but it's been drained, as you know. You'll see. It's a great museum. You should go. And there's actually. There's a wonderful kind of cypress swamp cypress dome attached to the back of it, which is sort of fun. You can go on a walkway through and. But, you know, they're very rich. I think they may be the richest or they're one of the richest. They own Hard Rock Cafe. They made a lot of money from casinos.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I've been on the reservation.

[Jamie Holmes]

Have you? Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all the cars in that parking lot are like, you know, it's like Corvette, like Porsche. And the jet. The chief of the nation has a jet. It's named after Sam Jones, after Abiaca. It's called Arpieca. That's his own personal jet. So. Yeah, I mean, they're proud. They should be proud. Yeah, they stayed. And, you know, the 600 Micazukis and the 1800 members of the Seminole tribe of Florida, that's their heritage.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Do you remember. You say it in your book. I don't know if you remember it off top of your head. When Jackson was doing. What was the name of his. What was the name of his policy? His.

[Jamie Holmes]

The Indian removal Act of 1830.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Can you remind me what they budgeted? They had a budget, and it was like, it'll cost us like a buck 70, right? Or whatever. It was like a buck 70 or 27 bucks or something to move every Indian to Oklahoma. It'll be like they had it narrowed down to, like a per head cost. Oh, it's in your book.

[Jamie Holmes]

It is. It's Jessup. So Thomas Jessup was. He's known as the father of the modern Quartermaster Corps.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, he's a logistics guy.

[Jamie Holmes]

He's a logistics guy.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like a budget and logistics.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, it makes sense. And he comes in at the end of 1836, and in his records at the Library of Congress, I found this document in which he's laying out the mathematics of per head, cost of removal. And I don't remember what it was. It was something like 9,000 a person that you had. You need this many wagons and this many rations over this many days, and you need these boats and that sort of thing. The Indian Removal.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

No, no, it wasn't 9,000 bucks per person.

[Jamie Holmes]

How much was it? It's in the.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

No, it was like. Like 20 bucks. Or something.

[Jamie Holmes]

It may have been less than that. It could have been. It was far less than they paid. You know, the, the war effort was. Ended up being $40 million.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, I'm sorry, I hate to hit you with like a.

[Jamie Holmes]

No, it's all good.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It was like they had calculated per. Just when you move for the people, you move for the people. You were going to move to Oklahoma, it was going to cost you some surprisingly low amount of money. Like just the trip, you know, I.

[Jamie Holmes]

Know exactly what page this is on. Okay. It's not in the Indian Removal Act. It's. It's. I found this in Jessup's files. Let's see what he says here. Transporting one. Even Indian removal to him was a numbers game. By his estimate, transporting 1,000 Indians to west of the Mississippi necessitated 13. You're right. I mean, it's not 9,013 wagons for 120 days, 80,000 rations, 200 ponies and three hired hands. He calculated the cost to American taxpayers at $26 per head. A little less than $9,000.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It's amazing, man.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And it ends up being however many multitudes, you know, it's the budget of the American government. The outlays of the American government in 1835 are 17.5 million. And this war ends up costing 30 to 40 million dollars. It's the longest.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That's part of the debate too. Like, it's so similar to the ill defined wars that we've engaged in since then of. At some point, people are like, this is very costly. It's not working. There are morale issues, there are moral issues. This was supposed to be quick. You'd all promised us that this is going to be over in a month.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's right. That's right. I mean, at one point, Jessup says the country, the country that we are quote, unquote, conquering is not worth a tenth of the cost in lives and treasure. It's like, can I quit? This was a bad idea. And also after he starts losing, sort of. Or he can't succeed. Can't we just allow them to stay in the south of Florida? We're not gonna plant there. And they do stay. You know, Abiaka's people and the Seminole people who stayed, they do stay in the South. Cause anybody any problem?

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Jessup. Well, I mean, kind of, right?

[Jamie Holmes]

He's like, do I have to do this? Can't we just let them stay in the south? And I can come. I can go home to my farm.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

At what point does Osceola get there's a really gory detail about this whole thing, but, like, how does Osceola get caught?

[Jamie Holmes]

Osceola is captured under a white flag in, I want to say, November 1837 by Jessup. There's some Andrew Jackson letters in there that I haven't seen cited, in which he's writing. He's out of office, but he's writing the Secretary of War, Poinsett, and he says Jessup should have captured Osceola. Just take him. Why didn't he take him? There's six letters in which he mentions this. And I found in Jessup's files in the Library of Congress excerpt From Andrew Jackson 20 days before he takes Osceola. Jessup should have captured Osceola. Twenty days later, he captures him under a white flag. This is a controversial action. This is a violation of the sacred rules of war.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

And when you say he captured him under a white flag, you mean Jesup Jessup's forces? They're flying the.

[Jamie Holmes]

I mean the meeting. So there's a meeting outside of. I think it's near St. Augustine. It is near St. Augustine. And there's Osceola, and I think there's Co Hadjo and there's maybe 70 Mikazukis there. I think it's a group of around 70 people. And Jessop had given them white fabric to be used as a white flag. And he says, anytime you want to talk to us and have a meeting, this flag will protect you. We won't capture you. And it's your pass.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, because in this story, there are a lot of parlays for sure.

[Jamie Holmes]

And sometimes they're talking while they're fighting at the same time.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. Which you realize, which now, in our own current conflict, which now goes on. I mean, you'll always be reading news accounts of, you know, like, one minute, you know, you're on the. Well, Maduro, one minute they're on the phone, the next minute he's in jail. Like people are. There's conversations happening.

[Jamie Holmes]

That's right. So this was one of the many conversations, and it was protected under a white flag. And Jessup gave the order just to seize them, as Jackson had suggested. And now I don't know if he read that letter before.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

He did it now, later, to lure him in. Lure him in, talk and then just grab him.

[Jamie Holmes]

Just grab. He gives various justifications afterwards, but those are pretenses. And they put him in the Castelo de San Marcos, which is the big Spanish fort in St. Augustine on the north side. They called it Fort Marion at the time. And Osceola becomes a prisoner in this old Spanish castle on the Atlantic. And at one point, there's a very dramatic he's sick. At this point, it's unclear what he had. Wickman talks about this in the Bear Grease podcast. He probably had malaria. When he's in captivity, he gets head lice. The measles, I think, is what it is. Breaks out, people start to die. It's not a great place to be. I visited it, and I saw the room that they were in, and it's like, you know, it looks like the set of a Robin Hood movie or something, you know, stone, and it's damp, and there's a little tiny window called a loophole.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You can go to the room he was in.

[Jamie Holmes]

You can go to the room they escaped from. Now, he didn't escape, so he may have been. And it's called a casement. These are like little rooms that are in kind of inside the walls.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

And there's a very dramatic escape of 20, including the black Seminole, John Horsch, the Afro, indigenous heritage. He had a Seminole father and a black Seminole mother. He's there. Chief King Philip, his son Wildcat is there. Two women escape, and they escape out of the window. And Wildcat talks about it. You have a first person account from Wildcat. You have the report of the head of the fort the next day. He says they went out the window. You have a formal board of inquiry the next day. And they said they went out the window. So all of the sources suggest that they took the forage bags that they were sleeping on. They were using them for beds. They stuffed hay in them, and they made ropes out of them, attached them probably to one of the bars that were outside of that window. The loophole is 5ft high, and at its narrowest, it's 8 inches. The story is, as Wildcat tells it, because they were sick at the fort, they convinced the guards to let them go out and get these special roots as medicine. What the roots were actually for was for them to lose weight. And so they fasted and they took these roots and they waited for the dark of the moon, I guess the moment in which the moon has the least light. And they got it wrong by, like, one day, but they basically got it right. And they, 20 of them escaped out of that window into the ditch. It would be a moat, but there was no water in it. And it's 40ft below the window. Dropped into that ditch, dropped into that ditch and escaped.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

But not Osceola.

[Jamie Holmes]

Osceola was sick. He Tells he writes Jessop, or there's a letter which explains. The next day he says, hey, by the way, last night they escaped. I could have, but I don't feel like it. I think he's ill at this point. And they take him to Fort Moultrie in South Carolina with others, and he's sort of a national celebrity and everyone wants to come visit him and everyone wants to paint pictures of him. And there's a description, you know, the crowds outside of the window, young and old and more especially female, come to wave at him. And we had to bring him to the window. So he's in some kind of a weird way, a star.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And there aren't equivalents to this today. If you go to the fact that the participants at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, so here's a group of people that, I mean, they kill right in hand to hand combat. They kill U.S. soldiers. But there's such a moral element to it that participants at that fight become celebrities who go on tour with Wild west shows. And you can go see and meet the people that killed the U.S. soldiers. Like, we don't have. There's that. That's not around anymore. Like, at the end of World War II, there weren't famous Krauts that shot a bunch of Americans that you'd go and like pay money to shake their hand.

[Jamie Holmes]

Baby van of Von Braun.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You know what I'm saying? That what? That went away.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, that's right.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

We don't have like Al Qaeda dudes that do, like, tours.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. So how to explain this? In a way, Osceola is a puzzle. You know, he. But so part of this is just capitalism, right? Newspapers want to sell copies of their newspaper. You know, if you're a painter, you want. This is an important person. You want to go paint him. But there's also, to a degree, you know, where. What kind of story about the war do you want to tell? Do you want to tell this story, like, where there's nothing, there are many great engagements, or do you want to tell a story where they're being diplomatic? Do you want to tell a story where they're saying they don't want to fight? Do you want to tell a story where they're at Fort Izard? There's a meeting at Fort Izard where they have a siege of 1,000 U.S. troops. And the Mikazukis and the Seminoles debate, should we kill them? And the Mikazukis say that we should, and the Seminoles say that we shouldn't. And the Seminoles win. And they spare them. They say, do you want some tobacco? Do you want some? But that story doesn't get through. What we get is the warrior. What we get is the fighter. So that fighter is necessary for us to recruit people and to project an idea of the war, which is not exactly what I mean. Osceola is a real person. I don't want to overstate it, but to some degree, his amplifying him, I know that's not exactly what you said. You said they're selling people and you can. But there's a way in which Osceola is amplified. You know, I'm in touch with the Seminole tribe of Florida, and to some degree, they don't like Osceola's elevation over Sam Jones. They want Sam Jones to get more of the credit. Osceola worked for him. He's the one who outwitted him. He's the one who outfoxed him. But we get this warrior. Not to take anything away from Osceola, but part of the puzzle of his story was me trying to grapple this question. Why is he this famous? And even when he's dying, he's confused as to why the President doesn't wants to paint his picture. And on his deathbed he says, all I did was kill General Thompson. He has a sense of his fame being disproportioned to his actions.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Got it.

[Jamie Holmes]

Which is interesting in itself.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, he just. The press grabbed that name and he became a symbol of that conflict. People involved in the conflict wouldn't have named him as the primary to take.

[Jamie Holmes]

Nothing away from him. Yeah, he's one of 15 people who that could have happened to.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Does he die of the sick of his sickness? He dies violently.

[Jamie Holmes]

He dies of sickness at Fort Moultrie, I think, in January 1838. And he asks the doctor, this doctor named Weedon, I'd like my bones to be buried in Florida. And there's some account that they were friends and he dies.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

He double crosses him back and he.

[Jamie Holmes]

Cuts his head off and takes his head home to, I think St. Augustine.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

What a piece of shit, man.

[Jamie Holmes]

You know, I agree with that. Yeah, yeah. There's a. There's a story you can find if you Google it. I think it's called the Mystery of Osceola's head or something like that. There's a PDF you can find in which there's a description of how Whedon. This is even worse. When his kids misbehaved, he would hang Osceola's embalmed head or preserved head on the bedstead of his children to punish them. Imagine that. Yeah, but it was normal for people to take prizes. I think Osceola is missing a few fingers. Both sides took kind of body, you know, that happened.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

The past is a foreign country.

[Jamie Holmes]

The past is a foreign country.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I know, but the point is that they had this rapport. Yeah, he had a request.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's kind of, you know. Come on, man.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

The past is a foreign country.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Is that the quote? Country.

[Jamie Holmes]

The past is a foreign. The original is. The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Really?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That's my new favorite quote.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That's even better than. Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect.

[Jamie Holmes]

Oh, I like that.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Well, I'll trade you.

[Jamie Holmes]

Okay, you're welcome to it. You can have it. It's a famous line.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Go, man. And it's never been found.

[Jamie Holmes]

It's never been found. At some point, it's. And this document lays out. It's. He sends it maybe to a phrenologist at some point. You know, where you're measuring, like, the divots in the skull. You know, this person has a very big bravery bump. Okay. There's actually a great story about Mark Twain visiting a phrenologist. And he goes once, like, in disguise. And they say he's like the least funny person that they've ever met. Like a great humor deficit. And then he goes later as Mark Twain. Oh, you got a great sense of humor. So great you could tell. Look at this.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

What is. What is Abraham's. What is Abraham's death?

[Jamie Holmes]

Abraham dies as an old man. I found. Or there are locals in Oklahoma who knew of his grave. It's never been published in a history before. I found one of them and I found his grave. I haven't seen it first.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Well, he dies in Oklahoma.

[Jamie Holmes]

Dies in Oklahoma.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Why did he go to Oklahoma when.

[Jamie Holmes]

Indian territory, where they shipped them west of Arkansas became Oklahoma?

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, but I mean, when did he go?

[Jamie Holmes]

Most black seminoles go in 1838. He still has to finish some service with the army. They let him go in 1839.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. So he's there and then there's a trip, the last chapter in the book. He kind of comes back to Florida and with the chief of the. Or the soon to be chief of the nation in Oklahoma, who's Jumper's son, who's like his friend and William Bowleg's Jolato Mico, who's one of the most powerful people in Florida with Sam Jones, with the Bianca. And they go up to New York and kind of have a junket together and see New York. You know, it's sort of, how do they see us? But he dies on April 10, 1874, as an old man. He sees the Emancipation Proclamation. His son fights with the Union.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Really?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And they celebrate a day, August 4th, which they call Emancipation Day, which is the day in which their Creek rivals admitted all people of color as full citizenships. And their Creek rivals ended slavery in 1865. And they would celebrate that day and have a barbecue and invite all the white people and invite the Indians. And they would ride on horseback down to a flag, and a cannon would go off, and they would circle the flag and then, you know, have a party. So his life is a success. He shepherds his people to the west successfully. They build a new life. He's got a big family. You know, I think dying as an old man, surrounded by loved ones, like, that's as good as you can get.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

You know.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

How old was Osceola when he died?

[Jamie Holmes]

Young. 30s, mid-30s? You know, I think he's depending on when you. When you have. If you have his birthday at, like, 1804, then. Yeah, he's early 30s, 33, 34. Hmm. Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Dude, it's a great story, man.

[Jamie Holmes]

Thank you.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah, appreciate it. I'm pretty far. No, I'm. I don't know, halfway in.

[Jamie Holmes]

I had so much fun writing it. It was such a journey. It was like traveling. It was like going somewhere else.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

What are you gonna work on next?

[Jamie Holmes]

I'm toying around with a few ideas I'm thinking of doing. You know, there's this cool Bill Bryson book. Maybe I'll stay in this genre, maybe I won't. There's this cool Bill Bryson book called A Short History of Nearly Everything. I thought that could be fun to do if I could find a cool.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Twist, a short history of everything else.

[Jamie Holmes]

Like a big history, but do it differently. If there was a new way to do it differently, that could be fun. You know, I'm interested in everything, you know, like, what were the Neanderthals like? What was it like before the. Before agriculture? You know, Homo sapiens go back to 300,000 years, up until the Neolithic Agricultural Revolution 12,000 years ago. They're hunting, they're fishing. And so there's just so many great stories. I don't know. I'm toying around with a few ideas.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You know, the thing that has evaded us for years is a guest to come on and talk about the Neanderthals. You can't find them, dude.

[Jamie Holmes]

Can you not?

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

No. I've even gone on other podcasts trying to find them.

[Jamie Holmes]

I'll give you a suggestion. I know of one that. Right. There's a book that's called Kindred. Kindred. Does that ring a bell? I didn't read it, but it came across my radar.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

All due respect.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I'll do a writer. I didn't want a writer. I wanted a researcher. But I'll take a writer. Yeah, yeah, you. You made me like writers. Okay, cool, cool.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

I did a little research.

[Jamie Holmes]

I did a little research.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You know, I was on Theo Von's podcast, and on Theo, I was like, he's got a huge audience. And I'll say, like, hey, just. By the way. Yeah. If you're a great Neanderthal guest, let me know. Nothing?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah, nothing.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

No, we've. We've found other ones and gone to try to get them. Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

I mean, people don't want an actual Neanderthal guest.

[Jamie Holmes]

Would be good.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

That would be ideal.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

What do you all think about. Yeah, we need to phrase this ask very precisely.

[Jamie Holmes]

No, we need to, like, get with the genetic testing companies and if anyone has, like, by outsized proportion, come in.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

With a higher percentage of. Right, we know that.

[Jamie Holmes]

But, like, is there any worse?

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

I think the red hair is a marker.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Do you.

[Jamie Holmes]

Do you have.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Do you have heavy duty?

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

No, I've never stuck my. I've never. I've never dipped my toe into the water of genetic.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It's. You know what? There's. There's a book about this and it's a very, very sore subject in academia to talk about what parts of the globe have people that have much greater representation of Neanderthal genomics or whatever. Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

Is it sore? Why is it so.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

It's just. It's like this guy and this book, I think it was in the Seven Daughters of. You know, I don't want. I don't want to say what book it was. Maybe the Seven Daughters of Eve. I can't remember what book. Not forget that. I don't know that that's the book. There's a book about human history. Yeah, that. And he talks there. He's like, this is. This is a thing you do not.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah. Discuss, I think, just the implications of certain, you know, being underdeveloped.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Like the.

[Jamie Holmes]

The Geico commercial.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, exactly.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. You don't talk about what parts. Like, when you look at how have it worked with the human diaspora. As the diaspora was occurring, certain branches and arms carried heavy Neanderthal representation And it's just become a taboo subject.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. It's not normal because there's the old.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Idea that it was bad, but then the reason I'm interested in the subject is everything we find out about them makes them seem smarter.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. They were advanced.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Oh. They liked art.

[Jamie Holmes]

They liked the fire things. And then there's the Denisovans. It's like, I think I read maybe there's 2%. What is it, Neanderthal? 2% of people have Neanderthal DNA.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

No, it's more. I think it's more than that.

[Jamie Holmes]

Is it more? Then there's trace. A trace of it. Yeah. And then there's, like, a ghost species that I was reading about where, like, there's this. You know, it's not normal to be the only species left in your genus. Yeah. Like, for most animals, it wouldn't pronghorns and us. Right. So it's weird that we're the only ones that made it. It's kind of a mystery, but a mystery to itself. But there's a ghost. Go ahead.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Oh, there's a point I make, and I think it's in our outdoor cookbook. Weird place to make at this point. And then forward. The introduction to our outdoor cookbook, I talk about. There was a time when you could be in Spain, you could be in northern Israel, all kinds of places, and you would see a fire. Yeah, okay.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

50,000 years ago, 60,000 years ago, you would see a fire burning, and you would have to ask yourself what kind of people, not what tribe, what human species might that be up there at that fire? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The same way, like, a mule deer can roll up on a whitetail, and you're like. For. To, like, an outside eye, they're like, oh, yeah. They are a little different. You. There would be dudes running around. Yeah. That some, like, an outsider might be like, oh, yeah, they are kind of different.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. And there's, like, you know, and then there's interspecies, like, love affairs. Right. And they know when that was happening. Ad mixing, they call it, because mule.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Deer would get it on with whitetails. And so I want to get a great Neanderthal person on man. But, yeah, I guess a writer. I don't know.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Come back in three, four years.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. Well, how long's it gonna take you to do the book?

[Jamie Holmes]

I'm game. I don't know. Three years.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

We didn't get into your personal life. What's going on? Are you married or anything like that?

[Jamie Holmes]

I'm single.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

You single?

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

How old are you?

[Jamie Holmes]

I'm 45.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

All right, ladies.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. Tell me if you got any ideas.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

I don't, but I mean, you just made the trap.

[Jamie Holmes]

Cool. Let's go.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Well, if you're watching on YouTube. Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

Right. You can write to find me on my Insta, which I don't have.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Cool. Well, here if someone wanted to meet him.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Yeah. They need to wait like us for his Neanderthal book to come out.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yes.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And you go to the book event.

[Jamie Holmes]

Perfect.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Oh, no. Go to the book for this.

[Jamie Holmes]

Yeah. February 3rd, the free and the Dead.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

And then ask them out to dinner. The Free and the Dead, the Untold Story of the Black Seminal Chief, the Indigenous Rebel in America's Forgotten War by Jamie Holmes. Thanks for coming on. Can't wait to have you back on with your next book.

[Jamie Holmes]

That was so much fun. Thanks.

[MeatEater Host (likely Steven Rinella)]

Appreciate it.

[Jamie Holmes]

Foreign. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.