Ep. 841: Theodore Roosevelt on Love, Ladies, and Conservation

Summary

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The MeatEater Podcast

Episode 841: Theodore Roosevelt on Love, Ladies, and Conservation
Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Edward O’Keefe, CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library Foundation
Date: March 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the personal and political life of Theodore Roosevelt, focusing on how the women in his life shaped his character, values, and presidency. With author and library CEO Edward O’Keefe, the discussion delves beyond Roosevelt’s rugged public image to consider his origins as a sickly child, his relationships with his mother, wives, and sisters, and his visionary impact on conservation. The conversation is studded with humor, historical anecdotes, Roosevelt family lore, and commentary on political and cultural change—making it both insightful and entertaining for history buffs, conservationists, and casual listeners alike.

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Main Topics and Discussion Points

1. Introducing Ed O’Keefe & The Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library

• [05:35] O’Keefe discusses the monumental effort to establish the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library, opening July 4, 2026, in North Dakota, near Theodore Roosevelt National Park.
  • The project is a $400 million endeavor, built on 93 acres, restoring native prairie, and serving as both historical museum and conservation center.
  • Quote:
    “He looked 100 years into the future, and conservation wasn’t even a concept. … When TR proposed his first conservation bill, the speaker of the House literally said, ‘There will not be one dime for scenery.’” — O’Keefe [06:21]

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2. The Multi-faceted Image of Theodore Roosevelt

• Roosevelt is universally admired across the political spectrum for different reasons, from rugged masculinity to progressive politics.
  • “He’s like a Rorschach test. What you see in him says more about you than it does about him.” — O’Keefe [08:34]
• The library aims to offer immersive experiences to make visitors—especially kids—feel the emotional heights and depths of Roosevelt’s life.

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3. Roosevelt’s Upbringing: Shaped by Women

• Contrary to the “self-made man” myth, Roosevelt’s formative relationships were with his mother, sisters, and wives.
  • His mother, known as Mitty, was a charismatic Southern socialite and an unwavering Confederate:
    “She was a deep…She believed in the Confederacy. She would fly the Confederate flag…She forbad her husband from fighting for the Union because she feared he’d meet her brothers on the field of the Union.” — O’Keefe [31:54]
• Roosevelt grew up in a home full of strong, influential women. His father, though philanthropic, died when TR was 20, intensifying the family’s influence.

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4. Sickly Childhood and the Drive for Self-Improvement

• Roosevelt’s severe childhood asthma shaped his character.
  • “From the beginning, Theodore Roosevelt’s survival was very much in doubt. … Doctors did not think he would live beyond four or five years old.” — O’Keefe [28:13]
• His mother was exceedingly protective, but encouraged his curiosity about nature, fostering his hobbyist taxidermy and scientific cataloguing.

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5. Roosevelt’s Early Relationships and Loss

• The episode details Roosevelt’s friendships and first love, Edith Carow, with whom he had a dramatic falling out—only to reconnect later in life.
• His eventual marriage to Alice Hathaway Lee is highlighted as extraordinarily influential:
  • “If you’ve ever quit law school, you have something in common with TR…He, too, did not finish.” — O’Keefe [48:26]
• Both his mother and Alice died on the same day, an experience that devastated him and profoundly shaped his intense, life-defining ventures into the Badlands and politics.

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6. Political Rise and the Women Behind the Scenes

• Sisters Bami and Connie played critical strategic and advisory roles throughout TR’s career.
  • Bami was the “political Svengali,” arranging introductions and positions, “convincing the McKinley campaign that he’s not a hothead.” [56:00]
  • Connie, as governor's sister, would host strategic political breakfasts and quietly collect invaluable intelligence.

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7. Macho Image vs. Family Man and Empath

• TR was no lone wolf—even as President, he consulted Edith on all major decisions.
  • “He doesn’t make a single appointment without talking to Edith. She redesigns the White House, puts her office next to his…I say in the Loves of Theodore Roosevelt that she’s in the room where it happened, because she designed it that way.” — O’Keefe [62:27]
• Roosevelt's children (especially his daughters and sons who served in WWI and WWII) and the family’s public image were carefully managed with help from sister Connie.

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8. Presidential Politics: The Decision to Step Aside and Return

• Against the advice of his wife and sisters, Roosevelt chose not to run for another term in 1908—a choice he would regret.
  • “He was a reformer…pushing change…Once an agitator is out, they ain’t never letting him back in.” — O’Keefe [69:31]
• Edith, a sharp political observer, foresaw the futility of trying to re-enter the game:
  • “Put it out of your mind, Theodore. You will never be President of the United States again.” — Edith, relayed by O’Keefe [71:16]
• Roosevelt’s Bull Moose (Progressive) Party run in 1912 split the vote and changed US political history.

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9. Conservation Legacy

• Roosevelt’s radical conservation record remains unmatched: hundreds of millions of acres in public trust, creation of the US Forest Service, National Parks, and wildlife refuges.
  • “He’s not just ahead of his time, he’s light years ahead of his time.” — O’Keefe [06:33]
• The podcast places TR’s work in the context of a larger American tradition—tracing lines to later figures like FDR, Nixon, and modern bipartisan conservation policy.

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10. Roosevelt’s Later Years, Death, and Enduring Influence

• Edith’s life after TR’s death (she outlived him by 30 years) is recounted, highlighting her ambivalence about public life and continued influence.
• TR’s progressing views on race and suffrage are discussed—his senior thesis and final speeches revealed positions decades ahead of his time.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Conservation’s Political Obstacles:
  “When TR proposed his first conservation bill, the speaker of the House literally said, ‘There will not be one dime for scenery.’” — O’Keefe [06:21]
• On Personal Loss:
  “He writes an X in his diary and says, ‘The light has gone out of my life.’” — O’Keefe, on the day his wife and mother died [54:54]
• On Self-Made Man Myth:
  “Every single decision that he ever makes, he’s asking his sisters or his mom or his wives for advice, and I’m like, what?!” — O’Keefe [15:20]
• On the ‘Man in the Arena’ Philosophy:
  “In a moment of decision, the best thing you can do is make the right decision. The next best thing is the wrong decision. And the worst thing is nothing.” — O’Keefe [102:27]
• On Modern Relevance:
  “I think we could all use a little more TR right now.” — O’Keefe [102:18]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:35 — Introduction to Edward O’Keefe and the TR Library
• 28:05 — Roosevelt’s Sickly Childhood & Relationship with His Mother
• 31:53 — Mother’s Civil War Ties and Family Political Tensions
• 43:22 — Early Romantic Life: Edith and Alice
• 54:54 — The Double Loss: Wife and Mother Die on Valentine’s Day
• 56:00 — Sisters’ Behind-the-Scenes Political Work
• 66:22 — The Presidential “Non-Run” Decision and Its Legacy
• 71:16 — Edith’s Realpolitik Influence and Bull Moose Run
• 74:35 — TR’s Senior Thesis on Women’s Rights (and Alice’s Influence)
• 85:42 — Edith’s Later Years & Continuing Family Influence
• 89:39 — FDR’s Family Political Rivalry and Legacy Comparisons
• 96:55 — Statues, Memory, and TR’s Caution Against Monumentalization
• 102:27 — Lessons from TR: Action in the Face of Challenge

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Takeaways and Themes

• The Hidden Influence of Women: Roosevelt’s mother, wives, and sisters were instrumental in shaping his politics, personality, and legacy—challenging the notion of TR as an isolated macho figure.
• Personal Pain as Catalyst: Sickness, family tragedy, and heartbreak forged Roosevelt’s drive, adventure, and empathy—qualities key to his reformist and conservation work.
• Conservation as Civic Duty: The episode elevates environmental stewardship as a non-partisan, generational American value, directly rooted in Roosevelt’s leadership and vision.
• Relevance to Today: Roosevelt’s inclusive, action-oriented philosophy speaks to a divided modern America; his life suggests progress and unity come from participation, resilience, and compassion.

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Final Words

With humor and depth, this episode reframes Theodore Roosevelt’s life through the lens of love and family, connecting his emotional world to his public achievements—and linking his message of action, unity, and stewardship to the needs of the present. The upcoming opening of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library is positioned as an opportunity to inspire new generations to engage with both nature and history.

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Summary by [Your Podcast Summarizer]

Transcript

[Steven Rinella]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Randall]

Guaranteed human. Okay, so you know, t mobile 5G home Internet is easy on the wallet, but here's some big news. It's now the fastest 5G home Internet according to the experts at Ookla Speed Test. And yeah, it's a great value because you get a 5 year price guarantee. T Mobile 5G home Internet. It's the fastest 5G home Internet at a great price with savings that stick. Check availability@t mobile.com homeinternet price guarantee. Exclusions like taxes and fees apply. It's the fastest. Based on OOKLA Speed Test intelligence Data from the second half of 2025. All rights reserved. Hey, if you're in or around Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and you live for hunting season, you need to swing by the Meat Eater Store in Milwaukee. We're stocked wall to wall with the gear we actually use in the field. First Light, FHF gear, Phelps, game calls and more. You'll find us at the corners of Brookfield. Whether you're gearing up for the season, dialing in a setup, or just want to talk shop with people who love to hunt, this is your place. That's the Meat Eater Store Milwaukee at the corners of Brookfield. Stop in, get dialed, and get after it. This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless.

[Steven Rinella]

We hunt with the Meat Eater Podcast.

[Randall]

You can't predict anything. Brought to you by First Light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds no compromise gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out@first light.com. that's F I R S T L I T E dot com. All right, man. We're joined by Ed O', Keefe, who's got a new book, the Loves of Teddy Roosevelt. We're gonna get into Teddy as a ladies man and a mama's boy.

[Steven Rinella]

That would have been a much better subtitle.

[Randall]

Ladies man, Mama's boy.

[Steven Rinella]

Instant no.

[Randall]

The loves of the loves of Theodore Roosevelt. The women who created President. And so everybody knows Theodore Roosevelt as the swashbuckling, you know, adventurer, which is a little weird. Like, like, you know, he went all over hunting, hunted in Africa, hunted across the west, became a rancher, wrote a book about ranching. Like, people know him as this sort of like the most macho of presidents, the manly manest of presidents. Right? You know, you think of, of like, you think of like President Trump growing up. You know, he's got like Gold stuff everywhere. And this guy was kind of comfortable in a cabin at times. But what you lose sight of. There's a couple things you lose sight of with Roosevelt. One, extraordinarily wealthy. Like, in today's world, him as an outdoorsman would be like a rich kid that, like, goes to boarding school and gets into Knowles. Gets real into, like, Knowles and, like, spends his summers in Alaska.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Do you know, I mean, that would be. That's like the contempt. And then, you know, eventually he's like a fishing guide or something. But he doesn't really actually have to, like, redneck stuff.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Stephen]

He doesn't depend on the guiding income.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Stephen]

It's just a lifestyle.

[Randall]

Yes. And, like, that would have been Roosevelt, but he did it so well. And because of his conservation record, he's sort of held as this, like, rugged individualist, but he has this very confusing background. And. And, like, one of the things that we're going to talk about is this is a guy not shaped by grizzled old hunting and fishing uncles that live out in a shack somewhere. He's, like, shaped by women in his life and. And, like, huge impactful relationships with his mother. So we're going to dive into that. Ed o', Keefe, Edward o', Keefe, if you want to be official. The first thing we're going to talk about, as I do his intros, we're going to talk about this. So Edward o' Keefe is the CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library Foundation. So we're going to kick off by talking about that, because this is a big deal over in North Dakota, the presidential library. O' Keefe recently previously spent two decades in broadcast and digital media at ABC News, cnn, and now this, during which time he received a Primetime Emmy Award for his work with Anthony Bourdain, two Webby Awards, the Edward R. Murrow Award. What was that documentary about him? No, the movie. Good Night and Good Luck.

[Steven Rinella]

Good Night, Good Luck.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

George Clooney and a Play.

[Randall]

And a George Foster Peabody Award for ABC's coverage of 911. So all that said, if he bombs today on the show, it's been good until now. It's not that he didn't have the training in digital media to pull off a podcast appearance. He should kill a former fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School. He graduated with honors from Georgetown University. All from a. All out of North Dakota.

[Steven Rinella]

North Dakota. That's right. Born and raised.

[Randall]

Born and raised in North Dakota. Went on to do all that. So currently lives in New York with his wife Daughter and, And son. All right, tell, tell us about the library. Well, before we get into the book, let's talk about the library.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah, great. I mean, the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library opens on July 4, 2026, 250th anniversary of America.

[Randall]

Was that just like a coincidence?

[Steven Rinella]

I, you know, I mean, I started in this job October 2019, and. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. And so it's been a six year effort. We've raised almost $400 million to get this baby constructed.

[Randall]

Oh, man.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, it's a, it's, it's going to, it's 93 acres. It celebrates Theodore Roosevelt's conservation legacy. So looking, you know, he looked 100 years into the future, and conservation wasn't even a concept. Right. I mean, it was an academic concept, but no politician had paid attention. When TR proposed his first conservation bill, the speaker of the House literally said, there will not be one dime for scenery. And that was, that was the attitude.

[Randall]

Are you serious?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I'm serious.

[Randall]

I never heard that quote.

[Steven Rinella]

That was the response. Right. Because scenery was like, what are you talking about?

[Randall]

That's 100% true. I feel like I ought to have heard that.

[Steven Rinella]

That's 100% true. The speaker of the House, when he proposed his conservation bill, said, no way. I mean, I didn't. Well, there wasn't a counter argument. It was just. That doesn't make any sense. What are you talking about? Yeah, so, I mean, this. When he's talking about the creation of the U.S. forest Service, when he's talking about national park doubling the park's size, when he's putting 234 million acres of land into the public trust, he is not just ahead of his time, he's light years ahead of his time. He's. And so what we want to do at the TR library is, you know, work with the local ranchers to graze the land. On the 93 acres, we have a walkable roof where you can go 38ft tall and look out at the 65 million years of geologic history in the Badlands. And it's filled 400,000 native plants, all from 40 miles around. We've been working on it for years, you know, working with North Dakota State University to bring those plants back, bring, bring the pollinators, bring the bees, bring the birds back to this area. You know, and so, you know, we want families to come and to hike and to bike and to horseback ride to the presidential library. You know, it's really a place where we want kids to drag their parents. I mean, to get out in nature and do what TR did you know, to find nature as your classroom, to be together as a family, to celebrate the wondrous beauty of this national park. Theodore Roosevelt national park, the only one named for a person, let alone a president. Everyone else is named for a person.

[Randall]

How close is the library to the park?

[Steven Rinella]

Stone's throw. I mean, you can. So there's two. There's a west wing, and now the only east wing. We thought that was going to be a clever ode, but the only one now. And it's a perfectly framed view of Theodore Roosevelt National Park. So you can literally. You can see the park from us and us from the park. 74,000 acres of backyard to go explore.

[Randall]

Does that. So it borders the park.

[Steven Rinella]

It does. Oh, yeah. It'll. It's the largest private philanthropic project adjacent to a national park in history. The previous was St. Louis Arch. So we're. It's. It's a big effort. You know, it's. North Dakota's not a huge state. We've got people from all over the nation, all over the world who've contributed. Because tr, I like to say he's like a Rorschach test. What you see in him says more about you than it does about him. Yeah, right. And so Republicans, Democrats, Independents, people from all 50 states, 12 different countries, you know, we've been really blessed to have incredible support because of this person who's so universally beloved for different reasons.

[Randall]

That's the thing I've mentioned a bunch of times is in giving talks is there's not a politician today that wouldn't like to be favorably compared to Roosevelt.

[Steven Rinella]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, he's Josh Hawley and Elizabeth Warren's favorite president. Find me one other thing they agree on. I mean, he's Barack Obama and Mitt Romney's favorite president. It is impossible to find another thing that they agree on. And so what we're doing at the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library is we don't want to tell you which version of TR you should love. We want you to get out in nature with your family.

[Randall]

Well, I'll tell people what version.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, okay. You can. But, you know, I'm the head of a nonprofit, so I can. Inside, we have an immersive, almost theatrical experience. I mean, every chapter of TR's life is crazier than the last. I mean, if you wrote this story and submitted it to an editor, they'd reject it, say, like, okay, all right, okay. I mean, we can charge up San Juan Hill and we can have the adventure in the Elkhorn. But really, we're going to go to Africa and the Amazon. I mean, these are both going to happen in the same life. It's just ridiculous, right? So we want people, especially kids, to immerse themselves in these stories. You know, when you're in Roosevelt's childhood, you want to reach inside a tree, if you dare. You want to open a book and an extinct species of bird will fly out and join a wall of wonderful. We want you to feel curious when you're. When you're doing these things. We want to feel courage. We want you to feel the things that TR felt so you can get in the arena of your own life and be the change you want to see in the world. Because that's ultimately TR's message is that if you want to be a part of a successful democracy, you have to participate, you have to be in there, you have to fight for it. It's not just going to happen. And whether that's being on the school board or running for a local election, you don't have to be President of the United States to make a difference, but you do have to get involved. And that's the ultimate message of the TR library.

[Randall]

How did they. Did they find you to do this because you were a North Dakota guy?

[Steven Rinella]

It was crazy.

[Randall]

How did you go from media to doing that?

[Steven Rinella]

I'm still trying to figure that one out. So I was 20 years in media, as you mentioned. I worked at ABC News. I worked with Tony Bourdain at cnn. Sadly, after Tony died, the show ended and I went to Harvard to basically try to figure things out. And I thought, you know, I want to do the types of programs that we did with Tony in streaming. You know, what was so powerful about working with Tony Bourdain is that, you know, he could go to West Virginia and have a conversation with people who are totally and completely different than him, or he could go to Mumbai and gather them around the table, have a meal and a conversation, and bring people together. I had more people talk about what they learned about the world from watching that Parts Unknown than practically anything else I did in media. And so I was really curious, like, how can we take that? You know, at the time, in 2019, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Apple, etc. You know, they said, we're not going to do any news, we're not going to do any live, we're not going to do any sports. They also said they're not going to do any podcasts, they're not going to do any Right not going to do short form video. Right. They're doing all of it now in 2026. But in 2019, it was like, nope, they're not going to do that. So that's what I was at Harvard to kind of explore is when we

[Randall]

built studio, we were never going to record. We were never going to do podcast.

[Steven Rinella]

Never. Right. No video, he said.

[Randall]

We talked in between two cameras.

[Steven Rinella]

As strict. Yes. Well, you. You stuck to it, Stephen. That's what I admire about you is when you make a proclamation as a. You. You stick to it. So, yeah, so I. I meet this group who's trying to raise money for the TR library. It's been an idea for 100 years since his death, and fits and starts in New York and North Dakota and other various places never succeeded. And, you know, I'm from North Dakota. I'm thinking about what to do with the rest of my life and my professional career. And I was researching a book which became the Loves of Theodore Roosevelt.

[Randall]

I was wondering. Okay, so I was wondering, like, chicken or the egg kind of deal.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

That's not the perfect.

[Steven Rinella]

Now. Y. Yeah.

[Randall]

I didn't know if. If your book came out of. So you were already getting into TR Land intellectually.

[Steven Rinella]

When you grow up in North Dakota,

[Randall]

you're just in TR Land.

[Steven Rinella]

TR Is your hero. Right. I mean, we. We got Roger Maris. We got, you know, we got Lawrence Welk. I mean, come on, we gotta give it up.

[Randall]

You got some heavy Phil Jackson.

[Steven Rinella]

We got Phil Jackson. Yeah. All right. There we go.

[Randall]

We try to get him on the show. Remember that?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[Randall]

He looks fish.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Stephen]

Hey, he lives up in. I was gonna say White's around here.

[Steven Rinella]

Right.

[Stephen]

Part of the time, I think.

[Randall]

If you're listening, Phil.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, he probably is. He's been following me pretty closely for 25 years. So this is probably your mom.

[Randall]

Listen. Right now.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, probably.

[Randall]

I mean, he's like, well, that dude's doing it.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm doing it now that Ed has done it.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I feel Jackson will do it, too.

[Stephen]

Oh, that would be great.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, that would be. I hope that happens for you. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So the book came before the library. I mean, I was. I was in two very different mindsets. I'm in the 21st century, you know, looking at. Could we do shows like Tony Bourdain and Parts Unknown in the Streaming Universe? And I'm sneaking away to the Houghton Library, where a big part of Theodore Roosevelt's collection is held, and I'm exploring this story, and I, you know, I Know the TR that you all know, right. From Mount Rushmore and this kind of chiseled, masculine, crazy adventurer. And two things can be true at the same time. That exists, right. That is him. But what I found remarkable is I'm looking at all these letters and every single decision that he ever makes, he's asking his sisters or his mom or his wives for advice, and I'm like, what? Where's.

[Randall]

I didn't.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, I didn't. He's kind of the quintessential self made man. I mean, the person who has no doubts, who asks nobody else for their opinion on anything.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Not true.

[Randall]

It's funny to think like. Like Trump being like, I don't know. Melania, what do you think about Greenland?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. I mean, who knows? History will show us.

[Randall]

History will tell us.

[Stephen]

Some research.

[Randall]

I don't know. I don't know. Maybe someday there'll be a.

[Steven Rinella]

Maybe Greenland really pissed her off, you know, so.

[Randall]

Yeah. Maybe she planted that.

[Steven Rinella]

Get him. Yep. Yeah. So I. That's. That's what that was. The origin is. I was thinking about what to do next. I'm researching the book on Theodore Roosevelt, and I've got this. These roots in North Dakota. And North Dakota stepped up by offering a $50 million endowment, contingent on the foundation's ability to raise $100 million by the end of 2020, which seemed like a daunting task, but got a lot harder when the pandemic hit, you know, so. But I was like, oh, look, is.

[Randall]

They have.

[Steven Rinella]

They have no money, no architect, no land. What a great prospect. I think I'll dive in. My New York wife was really happy with me. She really thought this was a good career move, so. Yeah, she was.

[Randall]

So. But you guys haven't. You guys haven't moved. Do you still have family in North Dakota?

[Steven Rinella]

I do, yeah. My. My. My cousins, my brother, my uncles. Yeah, My. My parents are there most of the year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Randall]

So do you. Do you rent a place there now so you can be out for your work?

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, since it's a national pride, we like to say it's a global project with proud North Dakota roots. I mean, I'm everywhere all the time talking to people about the project and doing a lot of fundraising. I mean, 400 million in five years. You got to talk to a lot of people about what you're doing and

[Randall]

how you're doing it, and all this is gonna.

[Steven Rinella]

July 4th, July 4th, 2026. So. Yes. So your question about. Was that intentional? I don't think in 2019. We thought, oh, you know, what would be a great day to open this.

[Randall]

But at some point, that'll buy us

[Stephen]

some time,

[Steven Rinella]

Randall, you know. You know, fundraising and construction, apparently. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, at some point we said, hey, wait a second. You know, if we can be a part of America' 250th celebration, that will bring national attention that we wouldn't otherwise get. But also think about this. So Theodore Roosevelt was president at the nation's 125th birthday. He is exactly between the Declaration of independence at zero and where we are now at 250.

[Randall]

Oh, wow.

[Steven Rinella]

So once again, TR makes you think about, where are we gonna be at America 500? Because right now, midway points. We are the midway point of that point in our distant future.

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[Randall]

And I'll tell my kids something similar, man. I was telling them, like, if the Earth's cross solidified 4 billion years ago and the sun's going to burn out in 4 billion years, like, it's just the earth's in a midlife crisis.

[Steven Rinella]

This is halftime.

[Randall]

This is just the crazy. This is like the crazy midlife crisis.

[Steven Rinella]

Exactly, exactly.

[Randall]

Kind of messed them up. They couldn't really conceptualize 4 billion years. So then they're talking about one. They're, like, expecting any second. Expect a second offer to son to

[Steven Rinella]

go, well, they can go on Facebook and find a lot of people who believe the same. They're going to have some real good friends.

[Randall]

Yeah, that's a good point, man. Like, yeah, he hit the halfway point.

[Steven Rinella]

He's the halfway point on the nuts. And think about this, right?

[Randall]

Like, I never thought about that.

[Steven Rinella]

So much is eerily similar to where we are now, right? The economy is changing. You're going from an agrarian to an industrial society. Like, think about men's worth. I mean, the value of a man to a family was how much they could hunt, how much they could gather, how much they could farm. How much, right? And that suddenly becomes, well, how much are you worth? How much are you making? You have an industrial job, right? You're moving from a rural area to an urban area. Cities are developing. So immigration. Immigration was a huge issue in TR's time, right? Then it was Irish and. And Germans and Italians and Chinese and, you know, that's it. What leads to one of the largest crackdowns in immigration in U. S. History. Right. Right after TR's time, where he's a very welcoming presence.

[Randall]

And, yeah, those are those Italians. They'll never integrate. They're always going to put family in front of nation Yeah, I mean, you

[Steven Rinella]

know, Irish need not apply, right? I mean, this was a very. This has happened.

[Randall]

You'll never overcome the clan mentality of the Irish.

[Steven Rinella]

And technology. Think about technology. I mean, Theodore Roosevelt's born in 1858. There's no electricity, there's no cars, there's no airplanes, there's no submarines. He's the first President to travel abroad while in office. He's the first President to send a telegraph by wire. He's the first President to use a telephone in the White House. First President in a motorcade. First President in an airplane, in a submarine. And on and on and on and on the list goes. So technology is uprooting the way people feel about life. They're scared because it's moving so fast and changing so quickly. What is this gonna mean? And here's this person who says, I'm embracing this, it's gonna be okay. And he's also one of the great naturalists of our time. So he knows to get out of the car and get on horse and get out into nature and have a tonic to all this technology that is changing everything in every way of American life. So he. I mean it's all happening again. History doesn't repeat. It rhymes.

[Randall]

Totally off. I want to get back into this, but just. It's just popping in my head. Where was he at in his career when he got shot?

[Steven Rinella]

He was the ex president.

[Randall]

Okay. It was October, it was like the bull moose era.

[Steven Rinella]

Bull moose, definitely. Yeah. He's. He's running against his, his successor, Taft and Wilson. He's an independent bull moose, progressive.

[Randall]

And that's when he got winged. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Or not winged. I mean he. Have you ever seen like we're gonna have that. Those pieces, they've never been. We got them. So I've got. So the only thing that saved TR's life and he took a point blank shot right in the chest. And it was. He had a double breasted suit. He had a speech about 50 pages long, doubled over in his breast coat pocket. And then the thing that really saved him, he had his eyeglass case that was steel reinforced. And that's the one.

[Randall]

Seriously?

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

I didn't know about the eyeglass case. I just thought he had like a book or something.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no, it was all three items really combined to save his life.

[Randall]

See, that'd have been Lincoln because the Gettysburg Address was so short, he'd be dead. It a punched right through it.

[Steven Rinella]

Right through it, right, yeah.

[Randall]

That's why you should write long ass speech.

[Steven Rinella]

That's right. That's right. And so it's crazy. So we're reuniting these items for the first time. They've never been on display together.

[Randall]

Yeah, you guys got the eyeglass case?

[Steven Rinella]

The eyeglass case. So the bullet. The diameter of the bullet hole going in the front part of the case is very wide. I mean, you're like, oh, he's, he's dead. And then it narrows. You could see how much it narrows out the other side. It slowed it down. I mean, had it gone through at the velocity that it was intended at point blank range. He's dead.

[Randall]

Did you. Hold on, Randall, don't bullshit me. Did you know about the eyeglass case?

[Stephen]

I did. I couldn't have described the hole to you, but.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, you gotta come to Maduro, North Dakota and see it.

[Randall]

Who had that?

[Steven Rinella]

So the National Park Service had the eyeglass case. Another park had the shirt. So it all got separated through the years. And the revolver, the gun is gone. And by the way, the assassin was stalking Theodore Roosevelt through several different speeches and looking for the opportunity to shoot him at point blank range. He had a dream, a vision that William McKinley, the president who was assassinated that allowed TR to ascend to the presidency, had spoken to him and told him that he needed to prevent Theodore Roosevelt from. From seeking a third term, that he was an illegitimate president, and then he had to be killed.

[Randall]

Makes sense.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, they recently, they came to

[Randall]

him in a vision, a dream.

[Steven Rinella]

I came to him in a dream. I mean, but think about this too. Political violence, Right? Another thing that was a hallmark of TR's time that we're experiencing again. I mean, this is. Three presidents were assassinated in TR's while he's coming up through the system. I mean, including the McKinley, who leads to him becoming the youngest president in history. I mean, this was unfortunately routine.

[Randall]

You know, the dude that killed Lincoln shot Lincoln in a theater.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

And then went and hid out in

[Steven Rinella]

a John Wilkes Booth.

[Randall]

Went hid in a book depository.

[Stephen]

There were no.

[Steven Rinella]

We're combining different. Assassination. Hear me out, okay?

[Randall]

All right.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Randall]

The dude that shot Lincoln.

[Steven Rinella]

Uhhuh.

[Randall]

Shot him in a theater. And I think they caught him in a book deposit. I'm not joking. Look at that. Oh, and you're saying the guy that shot Kennedy. The guy that shot Kennedy shot him from a book depository. They caught him in a theater.

[Steven Rinella]

You know that Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy and Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln?

[Randall]

Didn't know that. Back me up. Where's your computer, man? I'm flying blind. Someone looked. I already knew about the glasses case. Did you look up. Where did Booth get caught? I thought it was in a barn. No, listen, I could be wrong, but check this out. When we were on. We were just on live tour.

[Stephen]

Oh, yeah.

[Randall]

And we're doing a show in Dallas, and none of us knew this. Like, we had, like, booked the venue. One of one of our guys, he's hanging around. Somehow he going to get a cup of coffee or something, winds up out in front of the venue and he's reading some sign and he comes back, he's like, this is where.

[Steven Rinella]

This is where Oswald.

[Randall]

Like we're in the building where Oswald got.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen]

And it's right next to a dispensary called Doobies,

[Randall]

which everything changes. Lincoln was a big Doobie

[Steven Rinella]

Brothers fan, right? Yeah. He was in the Texas. He shot him from the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

He got caught at a theater. So that's probably what you're right.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Stephen]

He was caught at the theater.

[Steven Rinella]

He was caught at a movie theater.

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

That's who we were. By Tippett.

[Randall]

Oswald was caught in a theater.

[Steven Rinella]

Oswald was caught in a theater. Lincoln was shot in the theater.

[Randall]

And it shot. And I. And if I'm not mistaken, the park

[Steven Rinella]

needs to catch the movie theater to a far. A rural. A farm in rural North Virginia. Yeah.

[Randall]

In a bar storing books.

[Steven Rinella]

No, I get where you're going.

[Randall]

Well, I'm going. I think I'm just wrong.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no, no. Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy from the book deposit match. It was. It's pretty close.

[Randall]

Barn.

[Stephen]

Well, things are stored there.

[Randall]

I think they were. They must have been having a lot of. Just trust me, listeners, that bar was packed full of books.

[Steven Rinella]

Maybe they started the fire with books they were getting. Yeah, that's what I could have. I'm gonna give you that one. It's a cow depository.

[Randall]

It was full. Yeah, they thought about. Yeah, it was a hay depository.

[Stephen]

All right.

[Randall]

Okay, the book.

[Steven Rinella]

Now we're on track.

[Randall]

No, we're on track.

[Steven Rinella]

There's a great book about that, by the way. Manhunt. James Swanson.

[Randall]

Yep.

[Steven Rinella]

12 day manhunt.

[Randall]

Never read it, but I've seen it.

[Steven Rinella]

Is. Is. I think it was turned into a series, too, on. I don't know. I don't remember.

[Stephen]

But I can visualize the burning of the barn.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Stephen]

And the series on Garfield's.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, that's amazing. That's Candace Millard, who also wrote the river of Doubt, which page for page that is. I mean, that reads like A novel.

[Randall]

And who. Who is Hellhound on his trail? Was the guy that was the. The. The King Assassin. Is that what that book's about?

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[Randall]

A hellhound on his trail or something.

[Stephen]

Yeah, you're right.

[Randall]

Either way, I want to get into our body here. TR. Hey, if you're in or around Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and you live for hunting season, you need to swing by the meat eater store in Milwaukee. We're stocked wall to wall with the gear we actually use in the field. First light FHF gear, Phelps, game calls, and more. You'll find us at the corners of Brookfield. Whether you're gearing up for the season, dialing in a setup, or just want to talk shop with people who love to hunt. This is your place. That's the meat eater store, Milwaukee, at the corners of Brookfield. Stop in, get dialed, and get after it. Sickly kid.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah, Beyonce.

[Randall]

Real sickly. Okay, get into it.

[Steven Rinella]

This.

[Randall]

This forms like his. Like he has an intense relationship with his.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes. The very first words of the loves of Theodore Roosevelt are, from the beginning, Theodore Roosevelt's survival was very much in doubt. And I think this is the part that a lot of biographers miss is you. Okay. He's an asthmatic, sickly kid, but it led his mother to be extraordinarily protective of him to keep him from going outdoors. It wasn't just the asthma and the smog and the environmental devastation of New York in the 1860s. It was her really thinking that legitimately, he could die if he were exposed to too much. And so, you know, here's a woman

[Randall]

because of, like, a bygone thinking, like the miasma. Or is that like. Or was that a legitimate thing?

[Steven Rinella]

It was a legitimate thing. I mean, the doctors did not think he would live beyond four or five years old. I mean, he, from the beginning of his life, learned that you need to will yourself through physical and emotional pain. And his mom, who's often derided as having no influence over him, she is a charismatic Southerner. Right. She's from the Bullock family. She's the inspiration for Scarlett o' Hara in Gone with the Wind. I mean, she's a character. Yeah.

[Randall]

Randall says she dressed him up in little dresses.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, they did that in the eight. That was Victorian. She. That was. That. Yes, you would. You would. Yes. But that was not uncommon. That's fair.

[Randall]

It was not uncommon. He put it out like it was uncommon, but, no, it's.

[Stephen]

I mean, I always thought it's. It's this interesting. He's not like Growing up wearing buckskins and.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, no.

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no, no. He is. You said it, Steven. I mean, he's from the elite of the elite society. He's rich. There's no reason for him to go into politics or to go out into nature other than at the time, the doctors would give two different cures. For women, they would say, you need the rest cure. Right. If you're afflicted by something, go lie down in bed. For men, they would say, you need the west cure. Go west. Go hunting. Get out into nature. Do something that will revive your spirits. But as a child, I mean, Mitty, his mother would literally massage his chest when he was having asthmatic attacks, and blood would come out. I mean, that.

[Randall]

That's.

[Steven Rinella]

That's how often.

[Randall]

That bad?

[Steven Rinella]

That bad. I mean, she. He would have these recurring. He remembers. TR Remembers as a child having recurring nightmares where the devil would come in the middle of the night and steal him away. And, I mean, and the devil, like,

[Randall]

he's like, contemplating his own mortality and dream.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes. And even when he gets. When he's 20 years old, he goes to a doctor at Harvard and the doctor says, you. You have. You will not live past 60. And he doesn't. I mean, so he decides at that moment in his life, he is going to live to the hilt.

[Randall]

How old was he when he died?

[Steven Rinella]

60. He had just turned 60.

[Randall]

I know. I was that young.

[Steven Rinella]

Right. I mean, it. You know, you hit me with all

[Randall]

kinds of trness that I didn't know about.

[Steven Rinella]

That's what I'm here for. 60 years old.

[Randall]

I never really, like. Yeah. That young.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. It's kind of crazy to think of all the accomplishments now.

[Randall]

It's my super young, you know?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Randall]

When I was a kid, I'd be like, what are you expecting, dude?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. I mean, right? You had a good, long life. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, Midi, let's start with mom, because you always have to start with mom, right? She is a. She's a Southerner. She grew up in Georgia. She's willful. She's got this incredible personality, everybody. She's a great storyteller, right? So everybody knows that, like, Midi's the one who will entertain you. And she's got an incredibly refined taste. She marries a New Yorker and she is in New York during the Civil War and brings her mother and her sister up from Georgia to live with the Roosevelts.

[Randall]

So, Theodore Roosevelt, was she an abolitionist?

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, no, no, no. She was a deep. She was a. She believed in the Confederacy. She would fly the Confederate flag. She refused to have her husband fight for the Confederacy because she feared he'd meet her brothers on the field of the Union. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She. And she.

[Randall]

I mean, she. Okay. She didn't want her brothers to do what?

[Steven Rinella]

So Mitty Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt's mom and Eleanor Roosevelt's grandmother, was a Confederate through and through, unreconstructed, but she. So she forbade her husband, Theodore Roosevelt's father, from fighting for the Union. Okay.

[Randall]

All right.

[Steven Rinella]

So instead, what he did is for

[Randall]

fear that he would be fighting against her family.

[Steven Rinella]

Exactly. Exactly. And so dastardly were his or her brother's deeds that they were not granted general amnesty after the Civil War.

[Randall]

Oh, really?

[Steven Rinella]

Yes, yes. They lived the rest of their life in Europe, in London and in Liverpool.

[Randall]

They were like forest Bedford types.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, exactly. No, they. They. They were the ones that figured out how to run the blockade so they would get supplies because the south didn't have steel and didn't have some of the things you'd need for munitions and creating rifles and bullets. And so they were sneaking all of that in very effectively from London to the South.

[Randall]

No kidding.

[Steven Rinella]

And then one of them was thought to have been part of the financing of Lincoln's assassination.

[Randall]

Really?

[Steven Rinella]

Yes. So, I mean, they weren't just Confederates, they were devout Confederates. I mean, one of her brothers, tombstones in Liverpool says, an American by birth, an Englishman by choice.

[Randall]

Really?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Randall]

Did T.R. ever address that kind of stuff later in life?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I mean, you know, this. He. He was a Northerner who had his identity in the east with a Southern mother who had this political identity in the west because of his cowboy and ranching days. He was. He was the all American, quintessential perfect candidate to kick open the door of what would become the American century, because he had something for everybody. Right.

[Randall]

However did his mom die then?

[Steven Rinella]

His mom died on the same day as his wife, February 14, 1884.

[Randall]

So did she, 19 years after the Civil War. What was her attitude at that point?

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, she was, according to her son, an unreconstructed Remained. Yeah. That she whole life. And think about it. So, I mean, again, I bring up her mother and her sister both lived with the Roosevelts. So he's growing. Theodore Roosevelt's growing up in a house with one brother, two sisters, his mother, his grandmother, and his aunt. He's got a lot of feminine influences in the house. Right. And his dad is off with Lincoln often because he can't fight for the Union. He's decided to lead an effort to take part of soldiers earnings and convince them to send them back to their families because they would get paid and they were the primary earners. They were away from the house and a lot of them would blow it on party with booze and. Exactly. Because they could die at any moment. But he was trying to convince him send this back. So this is amazing.

[Randall]

I. I found what a complex scenario though. I was trying to like, like put a finer point on what a complex situation for TR's mother.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

Where she's got relatives trying to violate the blockade.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

And then she's got other close family members like running around involved at an administrative level with running the Union war effort.

[Steven Rinella]

Theodore Roosevelt grew up in a house divided, in a nation divided. And he learned from his parents that you can disagree without being disagreeable. You can be vitriolically opposed to one another, but you at heart need to love one another. And it's, it's a message he'll carry his whole life. Right. He. He really does learn that you need to find a way to bring people together to get the best political result that you want.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

He's not a divisive figure, in part because of his mother. I mean, when his father dies. So Theodore Roosevelt's father dies when T.R. is a sophomore in college. He's only 20 years old.

[Randall]

What killed him?

[Steven Rinella]

He had cancer. And he didn't. They didn't know necessarily if it was going to be deadly. And so Theodore Roosevelt didn't make it home in time to say goodbye.

[Randall]

What kind of cancer?

[Steven Rinella]

He had stomach cancer and it was excruciating. His brother Elliot, which is a whole nother fascinating dynamic. Right. Like Elliot in the competition that they had. Elliot is handsome and dashing and at first shows a lot more promise than TR academically. He's a fabulous hunter. I mean, Elliot is. He's like a sharpshooter. There's stories of him shooting elk from 200 yards away without. I mean. And T.R. couldn't do this. I mean, T.R. had terrible eyesight. He had to practice. He had to work at it. He had to like, fight his way through everything he ever did. And so all these family dynamics add up to who he really is. And you know, Mitty, his mom, teaches him two really important things. One, how to tell stories and how to connect with people with empathy. Big, big, big part of why he's successful as a politician. And after his father dies, she sits him down, sits all the kids down and says, you need to live for the living and not for the dead. If you do not live a life of purpose. You will dishonor the memory of your father. There it is. I mean, willing himself through physical and emotional pain and this great big personality. Both of those things come from his mother. His father is a great man. It can't be denied, but the fact that he died at age 20, when T.R. was 20, really gave this outsized importance to his father and Theodore Roosevelt's memory, because his whole life he was trying to honor him and be better than him in many ways fulfill the life that he didn't get to live.

[Randall]

Now, when he was a kid, if you read about. If you read about TR from. As a conservationist, a big part of that narrative is that he developed this fascination with wildlife as a kid where he's. He kind of becomes a hobbyist taxidermist. He's a naturalist. He's engaged in study of wildlife. What, like, to what extent is that going on? Under, you know, to what extent is that going on with the awareness of his mother? And what is his mother's take on that? Is she supportive of that, or does that stuff. Bugger.

[Steven Rinella]

She's extraordinarily supportive.

[Randall]

She likes it.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, even though she's a bit of a germaphobe. He stores mice in the refrigerator, and he's got Roosevelt Museum of Natural History in his room. This is what we're doing at the TR Library. We're actually recreating his boyhood room. Like his imagination. So taxidermy, you know, going to. He does. He does these. I've seen the collections at the Smithsonian. It's extraordinary to see, you know, because he's really a dedicated scientist. I mean, conservationists then. And now he's hunting in order to study them. And he's always creating a series. Right. So it's not just. You get this thing like he hunted so much. Like it's ridiculous amount or the volume of his hunting. He's doing it for scientific purposes. Right. He needs one of each type of. In order to see the variations in them.

[Randall]

Yeah. He was like in an era of cataloging.

[Steven Rinella]

Exactly. And you could see that throughout his whole life. I mean, he's a very serious naturalist. Even as a young child. You know, he's not just, you know, he's not just hunting. He's then doing the taxidermy, putting the scientific explanations. Another source of tension with he and his brother. His brother would say, good Lord, like, we're on the hunt. Can you just live? Could you just have some fun? Instead he, you know, do catalog and the scientific names and the variations of the species. And, you know, he's a really. I think. But for meeting Alice Hathaway Lee, he probably would have become a naturalist or a scientist. I mean, there were two reasons he didn't in college. One, natural sciences were shifting from the outdoors into the laboratory. And he didn't want to be in a laboratory. He wanted to be out in nature. And two, he met Alice Hathaway Lee.

[Randall]

Did he have a lot of girlfriends, like, when he was a kid? Do you have. The. People have girlfriends back then?

[Steven Rinella]

He did not. He did not because he was a geeky naturalist in whose wake formaldehyde lingered. I mean, he. I mean, he. He had specimens.

[Randall]

He had a formaldehyde.

[Steven Rinella]

He had. He had a stench. He had. He was an oddball. I mean, the recollections of his college friends are pretty harsh. I mean, his first biographers literally just ignored all that and kept it out of the record because they would call him eccentric, half crazy. I mean, he lived alone in an apartment because who the hell would want to live with him while he's got taxidermy and formaldehyde and all these dangerous chemicals that you'd use at the time? I mean, no, he did not have

[Stephen]

a lot of girlfriends up until he went to Harvard. That was his first time in a classroom. Right. I mean, he had private tutors up until then. Did he have. As a kid, did he have much exposure to people outside of his family that were his. Of his cohort? Or is. Or is his experience in Harvard sort of his first.

[Steven Rinella]

It's a good question. I mean, because his uncles, his mom's brothers were overseas. They take these great trips to Europe and to Egypt.

[Stephen]

Yeah. And he did some collecting there.

[Steven Rinella]

And he did a lot of collecting there. And his father would give him rifles for his birthday and for Christmas, and then they'd go on these. I mean, these long. They were gone for a year, 18 months. And that was his first exposure to the larger world and certainly the natural world he meets. He's got this extraordinary relationship with Henry Davis Minot, who would be considered sort of his best friend in college and actually the namesake of Minot, N.D. and they're constantly talking about, like, how to be a man, like, how to show your manliness. And in this Victorian era, you know, and they go out, and his first book. It's not really a book, is the Birds of the Adirondacks. So they spend the entire summer cataloging all the birds of the Adirondacks and then publish a book of. Of their Summer studies. I mean, not. You know, it's not. Not exactly your normal activity for a wealthy, effete person of the time.

[Randall]

Did.

[Steven Rinella]

Did.

[Randall]

Where did the primary. What was the primary wealth on his father's side or on his mother's side?

[Steven Rinella]

They were both wealthy, but the big bulk of it came from his father's side. So his father.

[Randall]

So he was more loaded than his wife.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, he was. He was a partner in Roosevelt and Sons, but his real focus was philanthropy. He was the founder of the American Museum of Natural History. He was the founder of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. He founded the first orthopedic hospital.

[Randall]

His old man did his.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. This is what he did. His. His grandfather, Cornelius Van Scheck Roosevelt was.

[Randall]

You know, that dude's loaded, man.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, but this is the only one that my kids remember, because his initials, cvs, they're like, cvs? The money came from cvs. I'm like, yes, it did, but not the CVS you're thinking of. That's not where he got his money. He was one of the founding directors of Chemical bank, which then became Chase Manhattan. That became Chase. That's JP Morgan Chase today. So the Roosevelt family fortune still lives on in the form of JP Morgan Chase, you know, with whom he had all kinds of battles. Yeah. And is another great story, you know.

[Randall]

Okay, so get into the woman that he met.

[Steven Rinella]

So then he.

[Randall]

So, yeah, he's how old?

[Steven Rinella]

So he's 18. And there's a really consequential year in Theodore Roosevelt's life. 1878. February 9, 1878. He's in his first year in college, and his father dies somewhat unexpectedly. He doesn't make it home to say goodbye. He never forgives himself, and he never forgives his brother Elliot for not telling him that dad was going downhill. Yeah. Then he goes home. And to your earlier question about. Did he have any girlfriends? He had one that he had. Was very close with. Who was Edith Carot? His childhood neighbor and his homeschooled playmate. So his mother brought Edith into the fold of the family, and she was three years younger, same age as his younger sister. And everyone thought they were going to get married. Everyone thought, inevitably, when Edith comes of age at 17, which in the Victorian times, you were eligible to wed, they were going to get engaged. Her birthday comes around.

[Randall]

That wouldn't have been unusual in those days that you would marry someone you were brought up around.

[Steven Rinella]

No. Be very common. Very common. Expected. Right.

[Randall]

Because there's, like, family connections and.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. But Edith came from a Fam. A family whose fortunes were falling and the Roosevelts were incredibly rising. So there was some tension. And Edith, Edith's father was an alcoholic who lost control of the family business. She was a real independent, tough minded, you know, not gonna suffer fools gladly. Woman. And so August 22, 1878 comes and they go out picking water lilies. They go for a rowboat ride in Oyster Bay and something happens. They have an explosive fight and breakup, and they never tell anybody what happened. They only talk about it twice the rest of their lives.

[Randall]

I think you tried to put the moves on her.

[Steven Rinella]

Could be. We need the Netflix adaptation of the Loves of Theodore Roosevelt to really speculate

[Randall]

here, to really find out what happened.

[Steven Rinella]

Find out what happened on August 22, 1878.

[Randall]

Really.

[Steven Rinella]

He loses his father, he breaks up with his girlfriend, and then he goes back to college. It's his sophomore year, and he meets Alice Hathaway.

[Randall]

Lee and Alice, and him and Edith are just done.

[Steven Rinella]

He's like, who's Edith? Where's Edith? Like, gone. Like, he meets Alys. He goes on a mad two year pursuit. I mean, imagine being the object of Theodore Roosevelt's affections. And he determines, I'm gonna marry you. Like that's what it was for two years. He gets a horse and he puts a horse in the stable. He rides the horse so often, he lames the horse because it's 12 miles to her home at Chestnut Hill from Cambridge. He gets a horse and buggy once. He lames the other original horse so he can go there once he breaks the buggy. He walks. He walks over 50 times, 12 miles round trip to her house to. To see Alice. He is. He's so. He. He thinks that fellow classmate Charlie Ware is trying to make the moves on her. So he challenges him to a duel and calls for French dueling pistols.

[Randall]

Really?

[Steven Rinella]

He wants me a red flag today.

[Randall]

I want to see the red flag.

[Steven Rinella]

That would be a red flag.

[Randall]

He keeps showing up. Yeah, for sure, dude. I got. I went to see the comedian Joey Diaz in years ago. He was talking about how kids got it so easy now. Like dating so easy now with phones. He's like, when I was a kid, if you wanted to get. You get your, you know, get a hold of your girlfriend, you had to sneak under window and throw gravel at it.

[Steven Rinella]

That's right. Yeah. Theodore Roosevelt had to walk 12 miles round trip to see his girlfriend. So he. They. She finally relents. She agrees.

[Randall]

She was being resistant at first.

[Steven Rinella]

She's the most eligible bachelorette in all of Boston. I mean, to set the stage, right? She comes from the Lee and Saltonstall family. There's this old Boston toast. And this is good old Boston. The home of the bean and the cod, where the Lowells talk only to the Cabots and the Cabots talk only to God. She's a Cabot, right? So like the geeky naturalist in whose wake formaldehyde lingers, going for the most eligible bachelorette in Boston. No way. Like, not gonna happen. And she really. I mean, she puts him off for two years.

[Randall]

And her family probably has a big say in this too, huh?

[Steven Rinella]

That's where the sisters come in. That's where her mom, TR's mom, comes in. He decides, I'm not gonna win her unless she falls in love with my family. They have to see that. The Roosevelts are pretty awesome. So he brings his sisters and his mom out to Cambridge, throws a party. They all love each other. Then they invite the Lees back to New York. And again, that's where it turns. I think that Alice Hathaway Lee fell in love with his sisters and his mom as much as he did tr. The idea of being a part of this incredible family. And she's a spitfire. I mean, Alice is almost the same height as him, very athletic, loves to hike, loves to play tennis. You know, like, imagining what his life would have been like. And in the four years that they're together, six years total, he writes his first major book, the Naval History of the War of 1812. He's elected to his first public office. He goes to, but quits Columbia Law School. If you've ever quit law school, you have something in common with tr. He, too, did not finish. In his own words, he rose like a rocket. So there's a lot of historical speculation about would he ever been president had his first wife lived. And I think unquestionably. So here's a stunning one, Right?

[Randall]

I don't get that. I don't get what you're saying.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, because she was written off in history as inconsequential, that the best thing she ever did for TR was die. I mean, that's really literally been written like that. Like, she was sort of from the elite society. She wouldn't have. You know, Would he have ever gone west? I mean, there's all kinds of counterfactuals

[Randall]

I got about what he would have settled into. This, like, patrician.

[Steven Rinella]

Right.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Right. Which doesn't.

[Randall]

It's sitting around on rowboats all the time.

[Steven Rinella]

So, I mean, two. Two factors, like they do. Yeah. So they are. She's expecting their first child when he first comes out to the Dakota badlands. I mean, that's. That's basically his. His trip before the baby's born. Okay. And that's when he invests $14,000 half of his inheritance in cattle. He never owns land because it's open range, but he invests a huge amount of money in cattle. And then he.

[Randall]

How's that lining up with the idea that if she hadn't died, he wouldn't have gotten into all this stuff?

[Steven Rinella]

It doesn't. But that is a new take that. The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt is the first book that really says Alice Hathaway. Lee made TR Part of who he is.

[Randall]

Got it.

[Steven Rinella]

And you have to. In order to appreciate what he. Later.

[Randall]

People are off.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes.

[Randall]

Or she's been generally written off. Historically.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes. Very written off. Yes. Like, didn't matter. Speed bump on the. On the road to his inevitable success. I think losing her played an incredible role in him understanding the fragility of life. That, you know, I'm rich and I've been elected to the New York State assembly. And yet, you know, my father, my mother, and my wife have all died in six years. That is the moment it turns. He's 25 years old, and all of a sudden, he has a life wish. He starts doing things that you might think are crazy or boring.

[Randall]

I gotta have you back up, man.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

At this point in his life, he's already done all that main stuff, right?

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

Like hunting in Maine all the time.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

So he's down when he get. He gets married to Lee. And during that marriage, he does his big trip out to North Dakota.

[Steven Rinella]

Correct.

[Randall]

Shoots the first buffalo. He shoots.

[Steven Rinella]

Correct.

[Randall]

Invests in cattle.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes.

[Randall]

As like an absentee cattleman.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes.

[Randall]

Right.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

Okay. And then. But line all that up with her death and explain how she comes to die.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. So this is. This is an important part of the story. I'm glad you asked us to back up. So he got engaged on February 14, 1880. Valentine's Day. They announced it to the world. Four years later, they're expecting their first child. And Theodore was a. He. He was into numerology and things. He's a bit of a super. He was superstitious and he. So he believed that the baby was going to be born on the anniversary of their engagement. February 14th, Valentine's Day. So he goes back to Albany, where he's a New York state assemblyman on February 11th. And he gets a telegram on February 12th, the next day, saying the baby has been born and Alice is only fairly well. But it's too late for him to go, so he makes arrangements to leave Albany and return to New York on February 13th. He gets a second telegram on February 13th. We don't know what the telegram said, but his face goes ashen white and he drops the telegram and literally runs from the New York State assembly to the train station in Albany. Normally, this trip would take two to two and a half hours. There's a thick, dense fog that has descended over New York City, so thick that you cannot get a handsome cab from Grand Central Station. It takes five and a half hours for him to take the trip from Albany to New York, all the while not knowing what awaits him on the other side. He walks the 15 blocks through this fog to 6 West 57th street, where he's told there is a curse on this house. Mother is dying and Alice is dying, too. He runs up to the third floor. He holds Alice, his wife, in his arms, until 1:30 in the morning. When he's called to the second floor, his whole family is there and his mother, Mitty, dies of typhoid fever. He goes back up to the third floor, holds Alice in his arms for 11 straight hours until 2:30 in the afternoon on Valentine's Day, when she too dies of Bright's disease, a kidney disorder that was exacerbated by the childbirth. He is devastated. He writes an X in his diary and says, the light has gone out of my life. And the next day he makes plans to not run for reelection and to head out to the badlands of North Dakota, where he says to his family, I'm going to the Badlands. What I shall do after that, I do not know.

[Randall]

And what kid was that?

[Steven Rinella]

That was Alice. They named her after the mom. So she's the firstborn and the last to die. She was born in 1884, dies in 1980, and she was left in the care of his older sister, Bami. So this is where Bami comes in. Bami, his older sister, is like the political Svengali. She's the one who. She takes care of the baby for almost three years while he's in North Dakota. She's the one that reunites him with Edith and ensures he'll get married again. She's the one who sells the home at 6 West 57th Street. She oversees the construction of Sagamore Hill. It's Bammy that. That arranges for him to have a role in the Harrison administration as civil service commissioner. Bami says, you know, maybe it would Be a good idea to come back to New York and be New York Police commissioner. Bami sets up the meeting that leads to him becoming Assistant Secretary of the Navy. I mean, it's like.

[Randall]

It's like in those days, a woman wasn't gonna do those roles.

[Steven Rinella]

Correct.

[Randall]

And you had to, like, be like, she's, like, fronting a guy.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes, because she's.

[Randall]

I can't do it.

[Steven Rinella]

She put it.

[Randall]

I would never be able to do it.

[Steven Rinella]

All her efforts, all her energy. So think of this. Eleanor Roosevelt said of Theodore Roosevelt's two sisters, Bami and Connie, if you wanted advice, you went to Bami. If you wanted sympathy, you went to Connie. Because they were personalities very, very different. Bami was the one who, like, she saw the political chessboard. I mean, TR Was impetuous, emotional, very intelligent, but he could make missteps. You know, he could piss people off. Bami was the one who's like, hey, you know, who you need to talk to is this person or that person or. This is the job you need to go into next. She's the strategist. You know, she's the one convincing him. She's convincing the McKinley campaign that he's not a hothead. I mean, they don't want to put him in to the role of assistant secretary because he. Of what? Exactly. What happened? That as soon as, you know, that war came, he left and became the hero of the war, you know, I mean, when he's governor of New York, his sister Connie holds these breakfasts, and they invite the political bosses in, and they've arranged this in advance, and at some point, the boss is gonna say, all right, now, everyone get out. I want my time with the governor. And they say, well, certainly my sister can stay. I mean, she is but a woman, and she takes such an interest in my affairs. And so Connie would knit in the corner, listen to everything that they were talking about. And when they left, TR had somebody who'd heard everything and he could talk it all through.

[Randall]

She would help plot the move.

[Steven Rinella]

Exactly. I mean, so involved was Connie in his governorship that Theodore Roosevelt said to his sister, haven't we had fun being governor of New York? Hmm? I mean, it's crazy.

[Randall]

Hey, if you're in or around Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and you live for hunting season, you need to swing by the meat eater store in Milwaukee. We're stocked wall to wall with the gear we actually use in the field. First light FHF gear, Phelps, game calls and more. You'll find us at the corners of Brookfield, whether you're gearing up for the season, dialing in a setup, or just want to talk shop with people who love to hunt. This is your place. That's the meat eater store Milwaukee at the corners of Brookfield. Stop in, get dialed and get after it.

[Stephen]

This is something that's always. I mean, it's really. This is fascinating because I've always had this curiosity about. He's such a headstrong individual. And I don't really. There's so many aspects of his life where you think this guy's not really thinking beyond what's in front of his face. And he's just like, yeah, punching at that. Whatever's in front of his face. But then this chapter of his life where he rises to the presidency. It's like he. He checks all these boxes and rises, you know, like it's.

[Steven Rinella]

It's a.

[Stephen]

It seems like a very different mindset is guiding him at that moment. As opposed to the guy who just goes out west to. To forget about.

[Steven Rinella]

And Randall. That the secret sauce is his sisters behind the scenes saying, hold on now. Now you gotta be here. Now you gotta be there. Now you gotta do this, now you gotta do that. And they support him. And Edith comes back into the picture. So the girlfriend that he broke up with on August 22nd of 1878, after

[Randall]

putting the moves on her, probably.

[Steven Rinella]

We don't know.

[Stephen]

He no longer smells like formaldehyde.

[Steven Rinella]

He's so. Yeah. By the way, just so. Because I think you and your audience will appreciate this. When he marries Alice, the one thing he's not going to be is a naturalist. I mean, she didn't mind that he went hunting and was outdoors. She would go hiking and such with him. But that's when he donates all of his childhood specimens. That's to the. Oh, no.

[Randall]

Really?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. You say she's so. I can only. I can only imagine the conversation be like, hey, you know what's not coming with us to the new house Donated. All the taxidermies got to go.

[Randall]

No kidding.

[Steven Rinella]

But the bison. Interestingly, there's only three photographs of 6 West 57th street, which was technically his mother, mother and father's home, but he lived there for a while and that's where the bison ended up. It was. You can see it clear as day that that's the bison that he shot in North Dakota. And then it some at some point moves to Sagamore Hill. Had to be Bami. I mean, where is it now? It's in Sagamore Hill to this day.

[Randall]

You guys can't get Your hands on it.

[Steven Rinella]

That one. I. You know, I feel like maybe we could for a bit. It would be nice to bring it back home for a. For a bit, but it's such a.

[Randall]

Who's the owner of it?

[Steven Rinella]

The National Park Service. Yeah. So, short version of a long story. Edith outlives TR by 30 years. Several of her kids have died in World War I and World War II, and Kermit is dead by that point. So there's only two. Three, if you include Alice, her stepdaughter. And so they convince her to.

[Randall]

One dies in the war, and then later, one kills himself.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep. Theodore is the only president.

[Randall]

I'm talking about TR's kids.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Yeah. He's the only president to have a son or daughter die in combat. Only president to have a son or daughter die in World War I and World War II. Only one of two fathers and sons to be awarded the Medal of Honor. I mean, his, like, the record of service and sacrifice in this family is off the charts. And they all did it. Ethel was part of the American Red Cross. I mean, the boys all fought, but the. I mean, the girls were involved, too. Anyway, so they convince Mom, Edith.

[Randall]

Dude, we're a long way from that kind of stuff nowadays.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, well, the noblesse oblige. They had an obligation to fight. They actually felt. You know, what's interesting about TR's rise backing up as a Rough Rider is it's the first time that the country fights as red, white and blue again. It's the first major battle after the Civil War. And so you think about, like, how did he. I mean, yes, it was heroic, and he became the hero of that story, but he became the hero of the biggest war since the Civil War. He became the symbol of American unity and again has this Northern father, Southern mother, Eastern political identity and Western ranch cowboy image. He's, like, perfect. He's central casting. By the way, the journalist who documents all of TR's exploits in Cuba, Richard Harding Davis, introduced to TR by BAMI.

[Randall]

Oh, really?

[Steven Rinella]

Yep. Says, you know what would be a good idea is if you're kidding me,

[Randall]

she's like his PR agent.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah. And Connie will do the same. Connie, when he's in the White House. So Edith is very private. You know, she's more circumspect. She's universally known as a better judge of character. He doesn't make a single appointment without talking to Edith. She redesigns the White House, puts her office next to his. I say in the loves of Theodore Roosevelt that she's in the room where it happened, because she designed it that way. So she's involved, but she doesn't love the personal side of politics. Actually, she doesn't love politics at all. I mean, when it's over, she says, I'm so glad it is all over the presidency. But Connie knows that if the American public falls in love with Theodore Roosevelt's family, he'll be more successful politically. So she's the one that leaks the stories of, you know, Algonquin the Pony coming up to the second floor, the wrestling matches at 4 o', clock, the jujitsu in boxing in the White House. You know, she's the one.

[Randall]

She knows people are gonna eat that stuff up.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, they're gonna love it. I mean, it makes him personable. It's like a crazy menagerie of a zoo and this big family. And they're fun and they're active and they're adventuresome. And she knows. I mean, she's the one that leaks the story about Emily the snake. You know, Alice, the daughter, famously wears a green snake around her neck. And when they ask, like, what's with the snake? She says, well, this is Emily Spinach. And they said, well, who's Emily Spinach? She says, well, I don't like my Aunt Emily, and I don't like spinach. So it's Emily Spinach.

[Randall]

So you were saying that Edith winds up being a good judge of character. Better judge of character than TR.

[Steven Rinella]

100%. 100%. He's exactly as Randall said. Like, if he has a fault, it's that he's what serves him so well. His instincts can turn on him and not serve him well in a political arena because he's very trusting of people. He likes everyone. He generally feels that people have good motives and he's impetuous. He makes quick decisions and doesn't think about necessarily the consequence. Edith is the opposite, right? She's slow, she's plotting, she's calculating. She's described as parched. He has a valet. I know. Well, that quotes that people really love is she. She describes. She describes her grandchildren. She says, I love to see their little faces, but I prefer to see their backs.

[Randall]

You know, I don't know why I think of this, but talking about, like, you're someone's wife as a judge of character. Years ago, I used to hang out a lot of. Like, I used to hang out with more writers than I do now. Yeah, Like, I used to hang out with all writers almost. And one time, I'm not gonna say his name But I had a certain writer over my house, and we had dinner together, and he leaves. My wife's like, that guy's never come back in this house again. And I kind of sat on that forever. And the other day, I told a mutual friend that story, and I told my wife, you know, I was telling him about what you said about his buddy, and she was just not happy that I shared that detail.

[Steven Rinella]

But maybe she was right. I thought the outcome of that story was going to be in vindication.

[Randall]

That's the only time, dude, we've had some crazy people over our house, you know, that's the only time she's ever said, no.

[Steven Rinella]

No. Well, that's kind of.

[Randall]

I don't care what he wrote.

[Steven Rinella]

That's kind of the dynamic with Edith and T.R. like, she gave him a long leash, but when she pulled it in, she was serious. Right. Like, it was like, hey, this. I'm not kidding about this one. For example, 1912, he's contemplating running for president again. He's constitutionally able to. And he's pissed that he gave the reins to. To William Howard Taft. Everybody's like, oh, T.R. you got to do it. You got to do it. You got to do it. You're going to win.

[Randall]

Oh, you got do that again. For people that don't know this whole history.

[Steven Rinella]

So Theodore Roosevelt in 1904, when he wins election in his own right, makes one of the biggest political.

[Randall]

McKinley dies.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Okay, well, let's. You want to back up there?

[Randall]

No. Just so you don't get bored.

[Steven Rinella]

McKinley dies.

[Randall]

McKinley dies. And. And Roosevelt comes into office off the. Like that he's the vice president.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

And so unexpectedly, boom, there he is and says. But then turns around and earns it on his own.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep. He wins elected office in his own right, which was his goal. I mean, he really felt like he was walking in a dead man's shoes.

[Randall]

Sure.

[Steven Rinella]

And he made a lot of change, and that was very risky. He was convinced he was going to lose. It turns out to be a route. One of the biggest political victories in US history in 1904.

[Randall]

Same for Johnson. Right. Like, Johnson comes in.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, so he comes in with the. He's got the wind at his back, and he's not restricted to two terms. And technically, he's picked up part of the term of another president, so.

[Randall]

Because that wasn't.

[Steven Rinella]

It wasn't in the contract.

[Randall]

The term limits wasn't codified yet. No, it was a tradition, but it wasn't.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay, exactly.

[Randall]

So, like, fdr. Did three.

[Steven Rinella]

So without consulting his wife Edith, who's

[Randall]

in the room home, did FDR do three?

[Steven Rinella]

FDR did four, but he died very early into his fourth term. So he won four. Yeah. FDR overlearned the lesson that TR didn't learn. He made up for, for his, his distant cousin's deficiency.

[Randall]

He's not bound by term limit. He's got like a term limit under McKinley. He's got. McKee picks up three and a half years, does his own term.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. So he's been president. He's going to be president for seven and a half years, but close to two full.

[Stephen]

It wouldn't have violated the norms to, to.

[Steven Rinella]

He would have been the first president to run for a third term. And. But he almost sort of say, I

[Stephen]

didn't have a full first term.

[Steven Rinella]

Absolutely.

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. And everybody thought he would. He gets up on election night and announces, I will not stand for election in 1908. He makes himself a lame duck. I mean, every. And Edith was seen to wince. And Bami was like, you gotta take it back. I mean, you gotta, you gotta say you, that's not true. That you. Maybe you will, maybe you won't.

[Randall]

What year did he make that announcement?

[Steven Rinella]

The election night. 1904.

[Randall]

So 1904, he says in eight, this

[Steven Rinella]

will be my last turn.

[Randall]

The same thing? Kind of.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, and how'd that work out?

[Randall]

Well, he tried again.

[Steven Rinella]

And did that work out? I mean, you know, you generally don't make pronouncements that you're not. I mean, I think the thing about TR is he says what he means and he means what he says. Right. He's a straight shooter. And so he's, he's, he's observing the tradition. His heroes are Washington and Lincoln. Right. I mean, he recalls as a child watching Lincoln's funeral in New York like he wants to emulate because he knows

[Randall]

he's going on that big ass Africa hunting trip probably.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, he did. He did want that too. That's true.

[Randall]

And let me tell you why.

[Steven Rinella]

He's pretty excited about that. Yeah. Yes. So he says he's not going to run for reelection. All of the women in his life say this is a disastrous decision. And it was, it was the worst political decision he made in his life because he regretted it 100%.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Because he was a reformer. He was a progressive. And I don't mean progressive in the sense of politics. I mean, he was outside the system. Right. He was pushing change and he was pushing the boundaries of what was and what could be. I Mean he. So once an agitator is out, they ain't never letting him back in. I mean, Edith knew this. Bami knew this. Like once you give up power voluntarily, you are never going to get it back. So he sits by, he goes on the African safari for over a year. He's getting reports about what's happening back home. They're not following your agenda. One of the big things was conservation.

[Randall]

Did he. Did he pick. Was he successful in picking his successor?

[Steven Rinella]

Yes.

[Randall]

Okay, so he hand picked, endorsed, and that carried the weight.

[Steven Rinella]

100%.

[Randall]

I got it.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes. And it was a odd pick.

[Randall]

So he could have won.

[Steven Rinella]

Absolutely.

[Randall]

I got it.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, it's not even a entertaining counterfactual. Like if Theodore Roosevelt had run in 1908. He wins. He wins.

[Randall]

Taft beat Taft.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, boy.

[Randall]

So not a note, not. Not a name brand.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, no, I mean he. Was he. Against William Jennings. Brian. I'm trying to remember if Brian. Anyway, he.

[Randall]

But not someone that became president.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. No, no, it wasn't close and TR regrets it. So fast forward. One of the issues being conservation, right? He. Taft doesn't do anything on conservation. He decides, like, what are we doing this for when we're. I mean, he undoes a bunch of some of the things that TR's record includes in the 234 million acres. Part of them were coal reserves. He says, we're not going to keep the coal reserves, we're going to use them right now. And I mean, so these things start being undone immediately.

[Randall]

Got it.

[Steven Rinella]

And they irritate tr. He comes back and there's a whole group of people saying, you know, progressive governor saying, you should run. Edith is the only one who comes to him and says, put it out of your mind, Theodore. You will never be President of the United States again. Ouch. I mean, but she saw it. She saw the chessboard. She saw the political.

[Randall]

Because the way the machine works.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, they weren't gonna let them back. I mean, they weren't gonna.

[Randall]

The two party system.

[Steven Rinella]

The sitting president was gonna just step aside and you were gonna get the Republican nomination again. So he runs a primary campaign. He is the first. If you don't like primaries, you got another thing to blame TR for. Because he invents them. He says, let the people rule. I know the political system won't give it to me, so I'm gonna go out to the people. And he starts campaigning and he wins enough delegates to have the nomination, the Republican nomination. They get to the convention and just as Edith predicted, they deny him the Nomination. They give it to Taft.

[Randall]

He challenges his own hand picked guy.

[Steven Rinella]

Correct. Yes.

[Randall]

In a primary thing.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes.

[Randall]

Beats him in a primary.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes.

[Randall]

So here he is campaigning against the guy. Like he hasn't followed through my record,

[Steven Rinella]

which has never been done in history. Right. So this is very unusual. This is strange.

[Randall]

But then the conventioneers revolt and hand it to the sitting dude.

[Steven Rinella]

And part of the problem, not to get too arcane, is that there are other candidates running in the primary. There's fighting Bob La Follette from Wisconsin, who's more progressive than TR and so the decision is like, Theodore Roosevelt doesn't win the state of North Dakota in the 1912 primary. You know, he like, he. So his, his strength is in the west and in the battlegrounds of the East. And, you know, the battlegrounds are New York. Right. Hard to imagine today, but that's the battleground. He never won another southern state in his political career after having Booker T. Washington to the White House. He was the first. Yeah.

[Randall]

Serious.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep. He's the first president to have a black man dine at the White House. There were threats on his life. There was a senator who said nothing bad would have happened if a bomb would have gone off under the table, killed the president and killed Booker T. Washington. There was a fight that broke out on the Senate floor when that senator made those remarks. TR Banned that senator, Senator Tillman of racist from the south from ever coming back in the White House again while he was president. I mean, you know, so when I talk about political violence like it was real at the time. And so T.R. knew he couldn't win the South. He had to win a combination of the east and the West. And so then he is the first president to embrace suffrage. He makes suffrage a part of his 1912 platform. I was gonna mention it earlier, just quickly rewinding. One of the biggest influences Alice had is his senior thesis in college. So Theodore Roosevelt writes a senior thesis when he's graduating. He endorses suffrage. He endorses a woman's right to own property. He endorses the idea that women could be doctors, lawyers and judges. He says women shouldn't necessarily take their husband's name upon marriage. That should be their choice. Very progressive for 1880. That's all Alice. And then when she dies, that kind of. That light.

[Randall]

He's like, what should my next paragraph be?

[Steven Rinella]

Right? Like, I could keep some of the taxidermy. It's like maybe my favorites. I keep the bison. Right.

[Randall]

Huh.

[Steven Rinella]

Anyway, so he's a very progressive platform.

[Randall]

When they pass when they pass him by and give it back to Taft.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

He then says, screw y'.

[Steven Rinella]

All. Yes.

[Randall]

And does his independent bid the Bull Moose party and all that.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes. So here's the key moment, right? So Edith has said, no way. This is not gonna happen. They go out for a horseback ride in Oyster Bay. A car starts and startles her horse. And she was a very accomplished horsewoman. I mean, she was a good rider. She gets bucked from the horse. She lands on her head unconscious. I mean, she has undoubtedly what today would be a traumatic brain injury. She is out cold for several days. Yes. Yes. That is when Connie and Bami work with seven progressive governors to publish a letter that encourages TR to run as an independent, as a bull moose. And T.R. says, I'll throw my hat in the ring. My hat is in the ring. When his wife misses. Is out cold, conscious, Edith wakes up and says, what did I miss?

[Randall]

He's like, oh, what else happened? No, you.

[Steven Rinella]

You signed off on this right before the horse, Right. You were saying something as the horse was bucking you off. I think it was run. I think it was run. That's what I heard. I heard run. Run as an independent. That's what I heard. It's too good to be true. So if that tells you anything about their dynamic, that he had to wait till she was out cold to make the decision to run as a Bull Moose progressive. She's so pissed that she gets on a trip to the Caribbean with her daughter Ethel. And there's reporters gathered where they're bringing on their luggage, and they say, you know, the reporter says, you know, is the president with you? No, he's not coming on this journey. You know, is that a hat box? And they say, yes, that's a hat box. He said, is that hat going in the ring? And she says, no, we left that one at home, too.

[Randall]

I don't understand.

[Steven Rinella]

He said, I'd throw my hat in the ring. That was his famous quote. I got you. So they're basically saying, like, you know that one. You want to go. Go talk to Teddy. Yeah. About hats in the rings. We're gonna go to the Caribbean and cool off.

[Randall]

She's pissed.

[Steven Rinella]

She was not happy. And she was. And she eventually came around. I mean, they all came around and helped him. And, you know, then you have the assassination attempt. And for a brief moment, it kind of looks like, holy cow. Because he. I mean, the man knew how to create a moment. He knew how to create a spectacle. And so he is shot. He delivers the speech for over an hour. He begins by saying, I don't know if you know, but I have just been shot, and opens his coat and it is caked in blood. Oh, I mean, to this day, when you see the shirt at the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library, like the outline of the blood. He was bleeding, but he coughed into a. You know, he coughed and he didn't have any blood coming out of his lungs. So he said, you know, I'm going on stage. And they were like, this is. You gotta get off stage. I mean, several times they tried to interrupt him and get him to the hospital.

[Randall]

People thought that the fist pump after Trump got shot through the ear was badass.

[Steven Rinella]

This is that in 1912.

[Randall]

Badass, right.

[Steven Rinella]

And then he's in the hospital speech still. And he says, and he says, you know, the thing that killed all these prior presidents who got shot was not the bullet, it was the surgery. It was the exploration, looking for the. You know, then they'd get gangrene or they'd get. So he's like, leave it in there, it's fine. If it didn't kill me, it ain't gonna kill me. And so he doesn't have surgery and two weeks later he gives a big speech at Madison Square Garden. And it's like, oh my God, he's gonna win. You know, he could, he could do it. And there's like a brief flicker of hope, but they split the vote. You know, Taft and Roosevelt split the vote. Woodrow Wilson, the Democrat is elected. I mean, you think if he, if, if TR is elected in 1912, there's a decent chance the United States does not get into World War I. I mean, he knew all of the leaders of all the countries that eventually got into World War I.

[Randall]

God, imagine too that we wouldn't be stuck in this bullshit two party system that we had live under.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep, he would. I mean, he's the most successful third party candidate in U.S. history.

[Randall]

Yeah. Imagine if that had happened and you wouldn't have to do this dumb thing that we have to do.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, that's another reason I think he's popular across the political spectrum is, you know, when his own party betrayed him or he felt they weren't doing what he thought should be done, he left it and he ran as an independent.

[Randall]

I mean, you know what I just found out, dude, it was kind of surprising is this gives me an opportunity to bring up my honorary PhD. I don't know if you noticed over my shoulder there.

[Stephen]

Oh, wow, he's got the big one in the frame.

[Randall]

Just reading that the press.

[Stephen]

Mine is below that.

[Steven Rinella]

Is it.

[Randall]

It's the small one, the president of the university. Yeah, Randall's, that little dinky thing. Anyhow, I just took a wait. I could flex. Yeah, please. When I was there doing that, I had dinner a couple times with the president of University of Montana, Guy named Seth Bodner, who's a Green Beret. I was just reading. I had no idea. I was reading last night. Bodnar is resigning from. Is resigning from being the president of the University of Montana to launch a third party bid for Montana's Senate seat.

[Steven Rinella]

Wow. Wow. Well, you know, it feels like again.

[Randall]

Which is a death sentence. Well, because you can't.

[Stephen]

But you don't have to win. You don't have to win a majority.

[Steven Rinella]

No, that's right.

[Stephen]

I mean, that's the difference with the presidential election is like there's a structural obstacle to a third party winning. But I think like a third party

[Steven Rinella]

senator could, oh, 100%. I mean, there's several independents.

[Randall]

It's more plausible, but it's just. We just don't. Americans don't play that game.

[Steven Rinella]

I feel like we're going through a political realignment. I mean, what, what we knew as a Republican when we were kids is now a Democrat. What a Democrat was, is now more of a Republican.

[Randall]

And yeah, it feels like that Republicans, like when I was a boy, you were free trade.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, right.

[Randall]

You were hawkish. Now it's like you're sort of like a protect. You, like, protectionist. So there's a fat, There's a pacifist wing, you know, and this, this is

[Steven Rinella]

what happens throughout U. S. History is. And it happened during TR's time. Right. There was a. A change in what a Republican was and whether the Republican Party wanted to be that and what the Democratic Party, who was, you know, aligned with slavery. Right. I mean, they didn't hold office on the federal level for what, I mean, until it was 25 years, you know, I mean, so they were in the wilderness for quite a long time trying to restore their identity. And it's really. Until FDR comes along and sort of steals the playbook from Theodore Roosevelt and says, hey, you know, all those ideas that he was trying to convince Republicans to do, why don't the Democrats do them? I mean, you think about the history of conservation, right? I mean, it's fascinating. It's almost like there's four phases. You've got this first phase where Theodore Roosevelt, the first politician to really appreciate what academics were talking about in conservation and then put it into legislative Action. The federal government, state governments are going to do something related to nature and lands. And then you have fdr, who picks up that baton and puts it on steroids. I mean. Right. I mean the CCC and the Works Progress Administration. And that just explodes into. I mean, he, he's probably one of our most underrated conservation presidents because so

[Randall]

much else taking, taking unemployed people, putting them in big camps to do conservation work.

[Steven Rinella]

Exactly. Right. And so that's TR's idea. Manifold 40 times. Right. And then you. That now you've got these lands, now you've got these agencies, now you've got these rules and laws and regulations. And then there's kind of an era of, of regulation. Right. There's awareness of environmental protection and degradation and pollution. And that's kind of your, you know, Endangered Species Act. And Nixon, Nixon, another great conservationist. Right.

[Randall]

Like it's almost over observed. We talk about it time. But like epa,

[Stephen]

Nepa.

[Randall]

Yeah, Environment, Endangered Species act, nepa. What else came in under Republicans?

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, all those in the, in, in Nixon's time. I mean, it was, that was a flurry of, I mean, pretty much all the federal regulations that you're still dealing with. And so it kind of begs this question. It's why I love the timing of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library. It's like what's old is new again. We're at this crux point, we're at this inflection, we're at this midpoint where. What is that fourth stage of conservation? What is the future of that conversation? It's one of those issues that shouldn't necessarily be partisan or political. Sure gets that way often. But you've had throughout history, Republicans, Democrats, independents, embrace this idea. And that's one of the, I mean, I think like what the Reagan library has done on defense, I feel like TR Library can do in conservation. Right. Create a place of convening and civic conversation to bring people together to talk about these things, to have a. I mean, every. I've talked to so many different people of different political backgrounds from different states and countries, rural, urban, you name it. And they all say kind of the same thing using different words. It's the words that put them in different camps or sides or parties. And I don't know, maybe it's naive, but that thought of like an independent just. He's somebody that brings people together.

[Randall]

Hey, if you're in or around Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and you live for hunting season, you need to swing by the meat eater store in Milwaukee. We're stocked wall to wall with the Gear we actually use in the field. First light, FHF gear, Phelps game calls and more. You'll find us at the corners of Brookfield. Whether you're gearing up for the season, dialing in a setup, or just want to talk shop with people who love to hunt. This is your place. That's the meat eater store. Milwaukee, at the corners of Brookfield. Stop in, get dialed and get after it. She say that Edith lived 30 years longer?

[Steven Rinella]

Yes, he died in 1990.

[Randall]

What does that 30 years look like for her?

[Steven Rinella]

Fascinating. Because she never wanted to be at Sagamore Hill on the anniversary of his death, January 6th. She did more.

[Randall]

He's a J Sixer.

[Steven Rinella]

She was. Yes.

[Randall]

He's the original J6 man.

[Stephen]

There's a lot of eerie parallels here.

[Randall]

I'm going to get that wrong in the future and make it seem more

[Steven Rinella]

like you're going to get. You're going to Kennedy, Oswald, Nick Lincoln,

[Randall]

that thing, you know. He died in a book depository.

[Steven Rinella]

I think it was driving in Dallas. There was a book depository. There's a riot. It was crazy. She lived her best life.

[Randall]

Was she public?

[Steven Rinella]

She tried not to be.

[Randall]

She tried not to be a public figure.

[Steven Rinella]

She would gather with. You know, a lot of people would come up to Sagamore Hill, want to talk with her, want to remember tr. She would go. She went on her own adventures. She wrote this fabulous book with Kirbet, and her chapter is Odyssey of a Grandmother. And she. I'm not gonna remember the. I know, right? Well, she. But she. It kind of goes to that quote, like, I love to see their little faces, but I prefer to see their backs. She traveled the world. She went to 30, 40 different countries. She kind of became this global ambassador. It's interesting because she lived as long. She knew him for 57 of his 60 years. They met when he was 3 years old, and they were married for about 30 years. So she lived without him as long as they were married and kind of had this amazing life and adventure. I mean, a lot of sadness, too. I mean, Quentin, youngest son, died in World War I. He's the only World War I soldier now buried at Normandy alongside his brother, Ted Jr. Who died in World War II. Kermit, as you mentioned, died by suicide. But they didn't tell her. They lied. They said, you know, he died of a heart attack because they didn't want. I mean, so three of her sons died before she did. You know, she did endorse. So then you have fdr, who comes along in. He runs for governor in New York. Then he runs for president in 1932, and Edith comes out of her self imposed isolation and endorses Hoover. She. And there's a big split in the family. Connie.

[Randall]

Really?

[Steven Rinella]

Yep, yep. So Bami had died by this point. She died in 1931.

[Randall]

Okay. I was going to ask if they remained like operatives, like political operatives, or if that. If that passion was just under.

[Steven Rinella]

There was a really fascinating dynamic between Connie, the younger sister, and Ted Jr. So, I mean, imagine being Theodore Roosevelt Jr. Almost impossible, but he has a remarkable life. I mean, he runs for governor and he is unsuccessful. He's taken down by the Teapot Dome scandal, which involved the Department of Interior. Speaking of conservation, it was. I mean. I mean, boiled down in its greatest simplicity, it was the Secretary of the Interior selling oil leases illegally. And Teapot Dome was a place in Wyoming that had oil leases. And he was doing it off the books. And somehow Ted Jr, even though he really didn't have anything to do with this, gets embroiled in the scandal. Eleanor Roosevelt campaigns against him. So the Hyde park and Oyster Bay branches of the family really begin to divide after the death of True. FDR emulated TR loved him. I mean, really modeled his whole career on his distant cousin. I mean, he was Assistant Secretary of the Navy. He was Governor of New York. He was in the New York State Assembly. He, of course, ran for president. I mean, there's a direct line. He even. FDR cast his first vote for president for TR in 1904.

[Randall]

Is that right?

[Steven Rinella]

Yep. And when he. When he was asked, well, why, you know, because he's a Democrat, why'd you vote for the Republican? He said, well, I thought he made a better Democrat than the Republican. Pretty good, right?

[Randall]

You're kidding me.

[Steven Rinella]

Wow. Yeah. So there's a split in the family. Connie really becomes a public figure. She's publishing books, she's giving speeches. She becomes the first woman to speak at the Republican national convention in 1920. A lot of people thought that Theodore Roosevelt was going to be the presidential nominee. He'd sort of made amends with the party. He said if I. He declined to run for governor of New York again because he said, if I've got one last fight in me, it's gonna be for the presidency in 1920. I mean, he knew he was sick, and of course the family knew he was sick. But it was a stunner when he died. I mean, he was the leading candidate for the presidential nomination in the Republican Party when he died. And I mean, so much so that they were Trying to soften his support out west and running hits, running, you know, negative campaigns already on him, trying to make sure that he wouldn't succeed. You know, it's, it's. Imagine what happens were he to live and win in 1920. You know, again, a whole different world. He gives us. The last speech Theodore Roosevelt ever gave in his Life is on November 2, 1918. It's at Carnegie hall in front of a mixed race audience. W.E.B. du Bois is on stage, the educator and Theodore Roosevelt says that he endorses equality amongst black and white and says justice with me is not a mere form of words. I mean, had he won in 1920, he was gonna take aim at Jim Crow 45 years before the Civil Rights Act. I mean, this progressive tr. And again, I don't mean it politically. I mean that he saw black soldiers fight alongside white soldiers in World War I. And it changed. He evolved. It changed his outlook. He was constantly like, what's next? What's the next battle? What are we as a country going to face? And he thought racism. I mean, he was always anti peonage, he was anti lynching. He was very, you know, he made some mistakes, some big mistakes. But the NAACP on his death ran an incredible memorial talking about how we have lost a friend. He was on the board of the Tuskegee Institute. He was on the board of Howard University. I mean, you know, these are like things people don't even like. How do you. But it's because he was so. I don't know, he's like a man from the future sent back in time. You know, how he saw what our next battle was going to be.

[Randall]

It's interesting. It's like during the height of the Woksters, I remember, like I said, on the board of the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership. And like at the height of the Wokster's power, they were like pushing trcp. Like disavow him.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

What's interesting when you get into.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

What some of his stances were in the 20s.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I mean, we took possession of the equestrian statue that stood outside of the. Yeah. Yes. Yes. It is an. A safe and secure location in North Dakota on display.

[Randall]

It will.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, it. The trick. It's. It's 168, 000 pounds. It's 16ft. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not an easy object to move. So by the time we took possession, our plans were well in motion. We will do something with it. We will have it on public display at some point.

[Randall]

But bad boy out front here, if you Want.

[Steven Rinella]

I think it's. You're not the first person to offer that. Just get a dolly from U Haul. Shouldn't be a big deal. It was. That's kind of the quintessential example, though, Steve. It's. Excuse me. It is bronze. It's hollow bronze. And the pedestal is enormously heavy. I mean, that's a granite from Connecticut. That's considered.

[Randall]

You can park it outside, can't you?

[Steven Rinella]

I wish it were that simple, but it's a quintessential example.

[Randall]

Without understanding the complexity, the weight.

[Steven Rinella]

And it's bisected. It's actually. So in order to move it out of the. Move it into the city in 1940, it had to be bisected along the saddle, let's say. Yeah. So there's some pieces that need to be.

[Randall]

You don't even tell me the number, but has it been appraised?

[Steven Rinella]

There was an appraisal, yes.

[Randall]

Before we come in.

[Steven Rinella]

It significant? Significant, yes. Yes.

[Randall]

Not insignificant, but it was.

[Steven Rinella]

It's a perfect example of what you're talking about. Right. So Theodore Roosevelt dies in 1919. That there's a fierce competition between Albany and New York City to be the site of the official New York State memorial to TR and by this time, there is a undoubtedly racist head of the American Museum of Natural History. I mean, he is working with Addison Grant, who's talking about, you know, the theories that will eventually inform Hitler.

[Randall]

And it's not our buddy Horn today, are you?

[Steven Rinella]

No, no, no, no. I'm not talking about Hornaday. No, no, no, no. Not Horn a Day. No, Hornaday. There's a great book by Darren Lund.

[Randall]

I shouldn't say our Body, but.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no.

[Randall]

But I think Horny did have a couple little. Well, he had some odd thoughts.

[Steven Rinella]

Not like this.

[Randall]

This was next.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. This was like convening people to talk about racial hierarchy in amnh. Right. And so he pitches the idea that the front entrance, this new entrance. Let's build a new entrance. If you've been to the American Museum of Natural History in New York, you know, the entrance is on 70. 77th. Right. So if you go, there's an old entrance. It's been there forever. And the pitch was, let's make a new entrance on Central Park West. And this. And it is. It's. It's Boone and Crockett, and there's four figures up top. There's quotes from T.R. there's quotes on nature and conservation. The family's very involved in this. They win the competition to basically make the American Museum of Natural history. The New York State Memorial to Theodore Roosevelt. And what's fascinating about it is when they're working with their family, Bami, Connie and Edith in particular. What do you want to be remembered? We wanna remember him as a naturalist, we wanna remember him as a conservationist, and we want this entire memorial to reflect who his heroes were. So, you know, it's Boone, Crockett, Lewis and Clark.

[Randall]

Boone's not still up there, is he?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, he's up. I mean, way up on the top you really got. But this is.

[Randall]

Boone was a slave owner.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I mean, so then later, the president of AMNH says, let's. We're gonna commission this statue. Theodore Roosevelt explicitly said, statues do not last the test of time. If there's one thing I don't want, it's a statue of myself. It's like one of the few things he didn't want of all the honors that he got. And so it's not.

[Randall]

What does it mean that it doesn't live the test of time?

[Steven Rinella]

Exactly what happened. I mean, that sometime at some point in the future, there's going to be an interpretation that doesn't meet the intent of its original creation.

[Randall]

And that's what he was getting at.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, that his legacy would be intertwined with something that he never had any part of. Yeah, and that's true. I mean, that's what happened. That's what I find. Like, again, he's like a man from the future sent back in time to say, don't do this, or this is what the next fight will be. I mean, it's eerie when you think of, I mean, you know, 1907, the economy collapses. He works with J.P. morgan to create what will become the Fed. Football is in danger. He calls the presidents of elite universities to the White House. They create what becomes the NCAA and save the game of football. You know, meat packing and meat inspecting are killing people. He's the one who's reading Upton Sinclair and others. And he creates the fda, right?

[Randall]

I mean, dudes are killing every last shorebird.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep. Yeah.

[Randall]

He creates Pelican Island.

[Steven Rinella]

Creates Pelican Island. You'll love in the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library, there's a. A special section in the presidency on his conservation legacy. And it talks about, you know, of course, the land and the waters and the irrigation projects and everything. But there is a statue, a bronze statue that we are creating of tr. And it's a recreation of the famous image of him with his hand on the globe. And then we have a pelican.

[Stephen]

But he said he didn't want statues.

[Steven Rinella]

I know, but we cheated. But we did one that is a recreation of his. Of a photo. And then I think the grace note here is the pelican. Because, you know, if you know, you know, and if you don't, I.

[Randall]

That's pretty good.

[Steven Rinella]

And then it'll be kind of a cool to see who. Who discovers that you're.

[Randall]

You're a literary man, you might know the answer to this. What was Philip Roth's novel? Was it the plot against America? Does he do a novel where he imagines that Charles Lindbergh wins?

[Steven Rinella]

His president Charles Lindbergh is so popular, he runs in 1940 and wins as a sympathizer. Basically says, let's make peace with. With Germany. Let them take what they like.

[Randall]

And that's the plot against America.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes.

[Randall]

There should be. There should be a novel. There should be a novel that. That Theodore Roosevelt wins in 1920 at.

[Steven Rinella]

Fabulous. Right? It's a. It's. You know, he. He was tired.

[Randall]

He'd be like a real happy. Let's cut this out.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, just. It was a. It was a strenuous life. Yeah. It was just, you know, I don't think he had the fight and the energy left in him, obviously, since he was very close to death. But it is pretty extraordinary to wonder what would have happened. I mean, that's the TR That I know. I mean, that's in the Loves of Theodore Roosevelt. I'm discovering this person that had great instincts and could make mistakes. But the real takeaway for me was if we are all fortunate in life, we have mother, a brother, a sister, a friend, a colleague, somebody who picks us up and pushes us forward when we're really down.

[Randall]

Well, I have someone that kicks me forward.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, that's what you need sometimes, right? And T.R. was no different. I mean, he's up there on Mount Rushmore. He seems kind of, I don't know, inaccessible. He's larger than life. You can't meet these feats of strength and adventure and. And accomplishments. And I think what I appreciated in doing this research and building this library is that he's a little more like all of us than we realized. And maybe that's a good thing. It makes you think you can do that, too. He had struggles, he had pain, he had setbacks. And there was an infrastructure. There were people there to keep him moving and make the right decisions and keep him fighting for what he saw as right in the world. And, you know, that's what I think, the ultimate lesson. He never deferred a problem to tomorrow. Right. He talks about this especially with regard to conservation. This is for our children and our children's children, for all those who will come after us. Well, there are a lot of problems that we're kicking the can down the road on in America today. And I think, what if you can take one lesson from this person who attracts Republicans, Democrats and independents alike, it's that you got to sit down and deal with the problems that are in front of you, or they are just going to reverberate through the generations. It's one of the big lessons of his life.

[Randall]

Man, you're the right man for the job to run that library. Hopefully, they'll give you a chance to have, like, a. You know, when you walk around, there's like an old man like, like, doing interpretive stuff.

[Steven Rinella]

That's my future.

[Randall]

Yeah. Like, dress up like TR to act like, you're like, I'll just wander around

[Steven Rinella]

and you're gonna see the story about 1912. It's unbelievable. Told Dr. Rinella about it way back in 2026. If you just wanted 1920, President Rinella, I said, whoa. I saw it coming before you did,

[Randall]

man. Yeah. What. But, like, in all seriousness, man, what a situation you landed into, like, you know, I mean. I don't know. I mean, to. To have the book and to have the position and just be like, bring

[Stephen]

all that and the moment.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, the moment. I think I didn't necessarily anticipate. No.

[Randall]

But I mean, it's.

[Steven Rinella]

It's. Yeah, I. I mean, I think we could all use a little more TR right now.

[Randall]

Well, you're giving. You're bringing it right now.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm gonna bring it. And I think the nation needs it. I think the world needs. It needs reminding of, you know, do what you can with what you have, where you are. You know, it's a person who's the best thing, you know, in a moment of decision. The best thing you can do is make the right decision. The next best thing is the wrong decision. And the worst thing is nothing.

[Randall]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Like, again and again, his philosophy just reverberates in a way in the arena. I mean, one of the special experiences of the TR library is gonna be surrounded by that incredible paragraph in the arena speech. You know, it is not the critic who counts, and it's 15ft tall. It's nine feet. You know, it's nine feet high. We're gonna have different voices, different. You know, one time you walk in, it'll be President Clinton or Bush and the Next time you walk in, it'll be, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio or LeBron James. And the whole idea is that, you know, you then are asked, what do you want to dare greatly to do in this life, this one chance that you have to make a difference in the world? What do you care enough about to commit to action? So I've always thought that the past really teaches you about the present in order to make a better future. And so if we can look back to TR and understand a little something about our world and maybe, just maybe, bond together and make something better, then this will all have been worth it.

[Randall]

You know, this is really inspiring too, because, like, me and Randall have been really struggling with whether we want to take on the task of trying to learn how to make gas station hot dogs of deer meat. And sometimes it seems too daunting and

[Steven Rinella]

you're gonna do it.

[Randall]

But after hearing this, you know what

[Stephen]

be the difference you want to see in the world.

[Randall]

The man in the arena.

[Steven Rinella]

You know, this past six years just came to full fruition for me. That you can get deer meat, hot dogs in gas stations is. It's not what I envisioned in 2019, but here we are.

[Randall]

Someday when we figure that recipe out, you'll be able to be like, that was me.

[Steven Rinella]

I made that happen. We have a Wyoming based company who is going to send us a sample.

[Randall]

I guess we can just kick it.

[Steven Rinella]

Never mind.

[Randall]

She'll come that out.

[Steven Rinella]

They were in another arena.

[Randall]

What does that have those guys doing?

[Steven Rinella]

They were inspired by your show.

[Randall]

Turns out, Phil, there's already someone in the arena.

[Steven Rinella]

No, no, it's not on the market. It's just for us. Okay. They're fans of the show.

[Randall]

So are you going to be there? I mean, you'll obviously be present for the grand opening. I'm thinking about heading to the grand opening.

[Stephen]

What's the grand opening look like? Is there like a week of activity?

[Randall]

I mean, where's everybody stay?

[Steven Rinella]

Should people put it on their calendar? Well, we have invited all living presidents to join us at the grand opening. If they all join us, we won't need fireworks. So that'll be fun. How many are there? Well, let's see. We've got Clinton, Bush, Obama, Biden. This is 4. And then the current president, 5.

[Randall]

What's the normal amount of living presidents?

[Steven Rinella]

That's about. I think, I feel like that's about what it is. It's five, six.

[Randall]

That's a great a year every year going back to the beginning and how many we're alive at that time.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay. So we can blow.

[Randall]

So they'd be Washington0.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep.

[Randall]

And then it'd be like, you know, on down the line.

[Steven Rinella]

Yep. Nobody came to his party. He was the only invited. All four. I've invited all the ex presidents and they're all here. Yeah. Since you. Since you clearly assassination conspiracy line. Every president from 1840 until Reagan in 1980 either died or was killed in office every 20 years.

[Randall]

Say that again.

[Steven Rinella]

So every 20 years from 1840 to 1980, the president died or was killed in office. So 1840-1860-1880-1900. 1920. 1940. 1960. And Reagan was shot but did not die. So he broke the curse.

[Randall]

I'm going to hit you with a weird one.

[Steven Rinella]

Okay.

[Randall]

I was talking to the writer, Selena Zito.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

She just wrote that book, Butler.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall]

About the assassination attempt on Trump. She was like, we're talking. And she said, he's not the first president to be shot in Butler.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, that is. What? Seriously?

[Randall]

Well, during the French, like in the sort of like out, like in the complications of the French Indian War, George Washington, as a British. Right. Military guy.

[Steven Rinella]

Right.

[Randall]

Was shot there.

[Steven Rinella]

He was shot like, right in that county. So I would not have put that together to get that one. And I believe, like, you could. The clothes that he was wearing, you could see where the bullets went through. I think that they were preserved. And there's a crazy story about, like, just how close he came to being killed.

[Randall]

That was in that county. They had had a meeting. He come in and try to tell the French what's up.

[Steven Rinella]

Up. Yep.

[Randall]

And they had a little meeting and then they take off and they sent an assassin in his wake. I think I could be screwing it up. They sent an assassin his way to go take a potshot at him.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Randall]

Like I think is how it went. And that was in the county.

[Steven Rinella]

Coming up with that. That's crazy.

[Randall]

So anyways, where's everybody? Where the hell's everybody gonna stay? Well, because you guys are out in the middle of nowhere.

[Steven Rinella]

We're in the middle of everywhere, Steve. I don't need to tell you that.

[Randall]

I don't mean that. I didn't mean that as a negative.

[Steven Rinella]

Center of North America. America.

[Randall]

It looks absolutely stunned. No, it's gorgeous. And I wasn't meaning as a hit, but there's just not like a huge. There's not a huge urban area with 30 hotels.

[Steven Rinella]

So there are 700 hotel rooms in Maduro itself. Good. And then in Dickinson, 30 miles away, there are over 3,000. Oh, and there's camping, RVs and glamping and all the things that have now become very commonplace around people up. Well, I, I, we are going to hit a max for sure. I mean, so, so if the President visits, likely to be early in that week of festivities, then we hope to have a couple of days where we're really focused on a lot of the people that have made this possible. I mean, $400 million raised. We've got a lot of benefactors we want to honor and we hope that July 4th will really be an incredible celebration, a community day. We want as many people as we can to get up and see the site and see the museum. It's going to be pragmatically challenging, logistically challenging. But we're gonna do, we can. We also.

[Randall]

I think I want to take my kids out there, I think. Oh yeah, man.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. I mean, it's fabulous. It's. If not for the opening, then shortly thereafter because it's a great place to get out into the national park.

[Randall]

You guys touch off a couple fireworks, huh?

[Steven Rinella]

So we are going to do a drone show. We've got. So the, the folks that did, I don't know if you saw this Grace for the World on Hulu, they did an amazing concert. And then above the Vatican, they recreated Leonardo da Vinci's works as well as several images in drones. It's stunning. Yeah, Stunning. Stunning. So we're gonna do like a 14 to 18 minute life of Theodore Roosevelt in the sky as a drone story, really? Well, yeah, because in part, we don't wanna burn down the building that we just built, but July on the northern plains. I don't need to.

[Randall]

104 degrees. We haven't had rain in a month.

[Steven Rinella]

Let's see what happens. Hey, we get to do it all again. Maybe we'll inspire another deer meat rediscovery.

[Randall]

Yeah, I do want to go to that. I mean, I've been kicking around going to, but I hadn't thought about the possibility of bringing my kids. But I should probably go preserve me a hotel room, man.

[Steven Rinella]

I, you know, a guy. We can help you out, Dr. Rinella. We'll make it happen.

[Randall]

I'll sleep in a broom closet or something. Man, it was great having you on.

[Steven Rinella]

It's wonderful to be with you. Thanks for all you do.

[Randall]

Yeah, you're good. You're the good kind of guest where you just kind of know the story in and out, dude.

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I've been living it for six years, so, you know, it just. I gotta, I gotta warn your listeners out there. They go down the tr. Rabbit hole. It's very hard to get back out.

[Randall]

Oh, it's deep pit.

[Steven Rinella]

It's deep. It's a deep one.

[Randall]

Well, again, everybody, the lives of Theodore Roosevelt, the women, the loves. What am I saying?

[Steven Rinella]

The love.

[Randall]

I mean, I had like an inarguably, you know, different facets of life. The loves of Theodore Roosevelt, the women who created a president. EDWARD o', Keefe, writer and is it what is president, CEO. CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library opening soon. Thanks for coming on, man.

[Steven Rinella]

Great to be with you. Great.

[Randall]

Appreciate it.

[Steven Rinella]

Thanks so much.

[Randall]

Hey, if you're in or around Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and you live for hunting season, you need to swing by the Meat Eater Store in Milwaukee. We're stocked wall to wall with the gear we actually use in the field. First light FHF gear, Phelps, game calls and more, you'll find us at the corners of Brookfield. Whether you're gearing up for the season, dialing in a setup, or just want to talk shop with people who love to hunt, this is your place. That's the Meat Eater Store Milwaukee, at the corners of Brookfield. Stop in, get dialed and get after it.

[Steven Rinella]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Randall]

Guaranteed Human.