Ep. 851: The Promise and Controversy of American Prairie

Summary

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The MeatEater Podcast

Episode 851: The Promise and Controversy of American Prairie
Date: March 23, 2026
Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Allison “Ally” Fox, CEO of American Prairie

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode delves into the ambitious and divisive vision of American Prairie, a Montana-based conservation nonprofit spearheading a massive habitat restoration effort in the Great Plains. Host Steven Rinella sits down with CEO Allison Fox to unpack the vision, operational realities, land acquisition strategies, the central role of bison, public access policies, and the controversies—especially regarding local ranching traditions and recent regulatory hurdles around bison grazing on public lands.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is American Prairie? ([05:37])

• Mission & Vision:

  • Nearly 25-year-old conservation org, based in Montana.
  • Goal: Assemble ~3 million acres of connected grassland habitat, combining purchased private land with public lands around the Charles M. Russell (CMR) National Wildlife Refuge (currently 1.1 million acres).
  • Managed lands: 605,000 acres so far (170,000 deeded, rest leased public land).
  • Open to public, focus on full ecosystem restoration, native wildlife (especially bison), and public access.

• Scale for Context:

  • Yellowstone: ~2 million acres
  • Glacier: ~1 million acres
  • Ultimate American Prairie goal: 3 million acres contiguous habitat
  • Current status: 605,000 acres toward that goal

"It is a one of a kind habitat restoration effort going on, and it presents certain challenges..."
— Steven Rinella (05:36)

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2. Restoring Bison and Ecosystem Integrity ([08:30])

• Bison History / Numbers:

  • Once tens of millions of bison; hit a low of under 1,000.
  • Modern: ~500,000 total in U.S., but <20,000 in conservation herds.
  • American Prairie: Introduced bison in 2005 (from Wind Cave NP), now ~940 animals; have distributed 650+ animals to other conservation herds, including tribal and state herds.
  • Bison are seen as vital to the landscape, but not the sole purpose; AP promotes whole ecosystem management.

• Conservation Approach:

  • Bison are legally livestock in Montana and are managed as such (health testing, fencing, taxes).
  • Grazing is split: Only 2/12 land units currently hold bison; rest is often leased to ranchers running cattle.
  • Aim: Restore landscape function, not just one species.

"American Prairie is not a bison project entirely. We are a full ecosystem, full conservation and public access... But we recognized that bringing bison back was an important part."
— Allison Fox (09:50)

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3. Origins and Comparisons: 'Buffalo Commons' and Ecosystem Restoration ([13:35])

• Founder was Sean Garrity; original concept from World Wildlife Fund and coalitions in the late 1990s.
• Inspired partly by the “Buffalo Commons” idea (Poppers, 1980s) but not a direct implementation.
• George Catlin in 1830s first suggested the idea of a prairie “nation's park.”
• Why No Grassland Parks?
  • Historic focus on mountain scenery, “scenic bias”
  • Grasslands were being settled and native wildlife already lost at the time parks were being established.

"We like really tall mountains... The subtlety, you know this landscape, it's vast and complex and beautiful, but it’s dramatic in a different way."
— Allison Fox (18:14)

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4. Land Acquisition Model and Controversy ([23:52])

• Land is acquired only on willing buyer, willing seller basis; 49 separate deals to date.
• Resistance arises despite this principle, often out of concern for tradition, change, and loss of ranching way of life.
• Many AP neighbors are current or former cattle ranchers; AP leases land back for continued cattle grazing (8–10k cows/year).
• Critics fear a loss of culture/tradition and increased “outsider” control.

"Foundationally, it surprises me how many people are antagonistic to a principle they broadly support: if you want to sell a thing and someone wants to buy a thing, whose business is it besides the seller and buyer?"
— Steven Rinella (26:34)

"It’s change... It is perceived as the loss of a way of life."
— Allison Fox (34:03)

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5. Navigating Grazing Rights, Bison vs Cattle, and the BLM Dispute ([42:19])

• Historic Use:

  • For 40 years, BLM and other agencies have permitted bison grazing as livestock on public lands (often alongside cattle, goats, sheep).
  • AP has grazed bison on federal permits for 20 years.

• Recent Policy Conflict:

  • A new BLM proposal (driven by political pushback) would disallow non-production bison on AP's federal grazing allotments (despite environmental assessments showing positive or neutral impact).
  • Dispute centers on “production” standard—argues AP's bison are not for commercial meat, so shouldn't be allowed; AP and others (including tribal herds) contend the definition is arbitrary and unprecedented.

• Implications:

  • Decision could have major repercussions for conservation bison herds (including tribal programs), property rights, and livestock management on public lands across the West.
  • AP is prepared to challenge the decision legally if finalized.

"They are reinterpreting their own laws with a very thin fact pattern and no legal precedents..."
— Allison Fox (49:11)

“It’s a slippery slope—what’s to keep a future administration from just arbitrarily changing the rules?”
— Steven Rinella (50:34)

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6. Public Access and Hunting: Block Management & AP’s Philosophy ([61:42])

• AP is a major partner in Montana’s Block Management hunting access program (~80,000 acres enrolled).
• Policy: Lands are open to the public, including deeded (private) land, except near staff houses; often allows dispersal camping, walk-in access, and enhanced connectivity to unreachable public parcels.
• Noted recent example: 3.9-mile private road opened at Anchor Ranch instantly unlocked 50,000 acres of public land.
• Managed hunting access in line with state wildlife goals; sometimes restricts mule deer but generally open for whitetail, elk (special draws), and pheasant.
• Access rules are data-driven, and restrictions are often more conservation-oriented than state minimums, e.g., closing areas to mule deer hunts due to population concern.

“We are seeing more support from hunters and anglers, more appreciation... There isn’t anyone who is creating the access that we’re creating in every single year.”
— Allison Fox (91:24)

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7. Funding, Operations, and the Road Ahead ([75:17], [70:52])

• Funding comes from private donors (predominantly U.S.-based, ~15% Montanan last year).
• Fundraising supports ongoing operations, land acquisitions, stewardship, and an endowment for future management.
• Timeline for full goal is “additional decades” as expansion depends on land coming to market.
• Long-term vision: Continued private-public partnership; not aiming to transfer lands to National Park system.
• Management metrics go beyond acres: visitor nights, restored stream miles, fence removal, wildlife stats, etc.

"A public-private partnership is the right solution for this landscape."
— Allison Fox (77:24)

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8. Hunting, Wildlife, and Charter Commitments ([88:08], [90:54])

• Steve suggests formalizing AP’s support/guarantee of hunting and public access in its charter to reduce tension; Ally responds that such a move can limit future flexibility and valuation but emphasizes AP's proven track record.
• Organization is open about ongoing hunting opportunities, regulations, and programs—including public bison hunts (20–30 opportunities/year, highly sought after, some reserved for locals and veterans).
• Emphasis on transparency and community partnership.

"Look at our track record... increased access and hunting opportunity, and that will continue."
— Allison Fox (89:38)

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9. Wildlife Restoration, Grizzlies, and the Big Picture ([96:10])

• AP celebrates reappearance of grizzlies on the plains, collaborates with landowners through programs like Wild Sky (incentives for wildlife presence).
• No active predator control; focus is on ecosystem restoration.
• Discusses challenges for species restoration, e.g., need for huge prairie dog complexes to support black-footed ferrets (not yet possible on AP lands).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Landscape Change:

  "You see the one room schoolhouses and you hear about the traditions that used to happen up there... Honoring that human heritage in those lifeways... is important to American Prairie."
  — Allison Fox (35:28)

• On Policy Friction:

  "It’s still a kick to the nuts, though..."
  — Steven Rinella (56:43)

• On Commercialization, Tradition, and Conservation:

  "If you imagine there’s a spectrum: running cattle sits very close to the habitat thing... Data center, over here. So you guys buying land to have it be habitat, seems like kind of a non-issue."
  — Steven Rinella (28:37)

• On Bison as Symbol versus Reality:

  "It’s our national mammal, Steve."
  — Allison Fox (80:34)
  "That was toothless. It came with nothing."
  — Steven Rinella (80:36)

• Anchor Ranch Public Access Example:

  "We immediately opened a 3.9 mile private road that accessed 50,000 acres of public land... That gate was immediately thrown open."
  — Allison Fox (92:16)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• AP’s Mission & Structure – 05:36
• Geographic/Scale Context – 08:01
• Bison History, Conservation Role – 08:30
• AP’s Organizational Origins – 13:35
• Comparisons to Buffalo Commons – 13:58
• Land Acquisition & Private Land Rights – 23:52
• Ranching Community Concerns & Cultural Tension – 34:03
• Bison Grazing and BLM Policy Change – 42:19
• Production Standard Dispute – 53:20
• Legal Challenge & Administrative Process – 55:05
• Block Management, Public Access, Restrictions Philosophy – 61:42
• Anchor Ranch Access Opening Story – 92:13
• Funding Approaches – 75:17
• Long-Term Vision & Endowment – 76:59
• Wildlife Restoration (Grizzlies, Ferrets), Neighbor Programs – 96:10–99:14
• Bison Hunting Opportunities – 102:43
• Black-Footed Ferret Restoration – 106:27

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Summary Tone & Takeaways

True to The MeatEater style, the tone is candid, respectful, and curious—acknowledging controversy without inflaming it, foregrounding both the ecological goals and local cultural stakes. Both host and guest are knowledgeable, nuanced, and transparent about complexity, historical context, and regulatory ambiguity.

Listeners will leave with a strong grasp of:

• How American Prairie operates, its vision, and expanding scale
• The practicalities and obstacles of modern grassland conservation and public access
• The roots and reality of resistance from local ranching communities
• Specifics on the high-profile BLM/production controversy and why its outcome matters for the future of conservation grazing
• The organization’s approach to hunting, wildlife management, access, and ongoing relationship-building with both neighbors and the wider public

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For more information: americanprairie.org
Visit the Discovery Center in Lewistown, MT. For bison hunt applications and guided visits, see the website.

Guest Social: Allison Fox—no direct social links mentioned, reach via AP website.

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This summary was compiled for those seeking a comprehensive understanding of The MeatEater Podcast Episode 851: The Promise and Controversy of American Prairie, without the ads or non-content asides.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

Correct. The CEO of American Prairie. You may have known and I didn't even catch when this happened. American Prairie, at a time was American Prairie Reserve.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But became American Prairie. How long ago?

[A]

2021.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And before that we were American Prairie Foundation.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

It's been a journey.

[B]

All right. So now landed officially on American Prairie. She's been the. She's led the organization since February 2018 and has been with the organization in various roles since 2007 here in the state of Montana. They're, they're based here in the state of Montana, primarily in north central Montana. I'm gonna let you explain what the mission is. Okay. But it, but American Prairie is. And we'll get into what it is and what it's been interpreted as and, and controversy surrounding the organization. But it is a one of a kind effort.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

It is a one of a kind habitat restoration effort going on, and it presents certain challenges and. But I would like you first to lay out, like, lay out for the audience. Lay out for me what is the American Prairie vision.

[A]

Okay, Let me Start with what American Prairie is today. Okay, so American Prairie is a nearly 25 year old conservation organization. We are based here in Montana. We are a team of Montanans leading this organization. And Today we manage 605,000 acres of habitat of deeded and leased public lands. Lands that are open to the public and are all located around the Charlie Russell National Wildlife Refuge up in north central Montana. The ultimate vision is to, using private philanthropy, purchase private lands to link together existing public lands around the Charlie Russell National Wildlife Refuge for eventually a landscape of about 3 million acres. So we've assembled 605,000 acres toward 2 million acres next to the 1.1 million acre Charlie Russell National Wildlife Refuge.

[B]

These lands are back those numbers up. Mick, I want to follow this.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

The current Charlie Russell land. So this is. This is like BLM public land.

[A]

It's U.S. fish and Wildlife Service.

[B]

That's U.S. fish. Okay, I'm sorry, so you. So. So the actual CMR property is how many acres?

[A]

It's 1.1 million acres.

[B]

1.1 million acres. Okay.

[A]

And it's along the Missouri. For those who are not familiar, it's a long and skinny wildlife refuge along the Missouri River. Got it. So it's river, river bottom, steep breaks on either side down to the river.

[B]

I guess when you were saying that in my head, I'm mixing up the National Wild and Scenic river designation. But you're talking about the cmr, the reserve.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, the refuge. Second largest refuge in the lower 48. Okay, and then what you're referring to is the Missouri river portion, the White Cliffs portion, that has wild and scenic river designation, and that goes through the monument, the Upper Missouri Breaks National Monument.

[B]

And that's a huge complex of public lands extending off.

[A]

Exactly. It's somewhere around 400,000 acres, 50,000 acres.

[B]

Okay, so the refuge is how many acres?

[A]

1.1 million.

[B]

Okay, just for con. For. For context, for people, Yellowstone national park is about 2 million acres.

[A]

Exactly. Glacier is about a million.

[B]

Okay, got it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, so there's. So the ultimate goal, you're saying is make like the shooting for 3 million contiguous acres.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And. And how many so far?

[A]

So 605,000 next to 1.1 million acres.

[B]

Okay. Okay. There's a huge buffalo component to this thing.

[A]

There is.

[B]

Yeah. Let's explain that to folks. Yeah, this is where I get interested. I'm interested in the whole thing, but this is where I have like a more detailed fine point interest.

[A]

Real tattoo or not.

[B]

Yeah, fake tattoo.

[A]

Fake tattoo. Yeah. So let's just start with what this landscape looked like, what our Great Plains looked like for thousands and thousands of years. And that, as you know, as you've written about, was tens of millions of bison out on this landscape or buffalo out on this landscape in a very, very short time. And Dan Flores talks about this in his book American Serengeti as the greatest loss of wildlife that had human hands in sort of modern human history, documented human history that we went from 30 plus million animals to less than 1,000 in Yellowstone National Park. So, so good conservation has been happening to return bison. I think there are about a half million in both conservation and production herds in the country now. And I think it's less than 20,000 that are in conservation herds. You may know that exact number.

[B]

Yeah, it looks like about 90. I mean, well, just kind of a good way to understand it is about 95% of them are privately owned.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, so that number's about. That number's about Right. And so from the American prairie is not a buffalo or bison project entirely. We are a full ecosystem, full conservation and public access. And I hope we talk a lot about public access too. Public access project. But from the beginning, from basically American prairie start, we recognize that bringing bison back to the landscape was a. Was an important part of demonstrating the ultimate vision and bringing that native grazer back to the land. So American prairie has grazed bison on our lands since 2005. We bought the first property in 2004. This was a few years before my time, but that early team was brave and intrepid and they brought 16 animals in from Wind Cave National park in 2005. And we have been growing this conservation herd ever since. It's about 940animals now on two of our 12 units. So the 605,000 acres is split up into. Into a number of units based on what. Which properties were available for. For purchase.

[B]

You know, I didn't know till the other day. I'm writing a. I'm writing a, like an updated afterward for my buffalo book because it's been 18 years. And so I'm doing, I'm doing kind of a snapshot of. I don't talk about American prairie animals, but I'm doing a snapshot of what I define as like really truly free range herds that can move across jurisdictions.

[A]

Yeah, which there are a few.

[B]

Very few. Right. Very few that can move across jurisdictions.

[A]

Henry's Mountains Book Cliffs

[B]

one, that. But that discussion, in that discussion, I'm talking about the ones that live on the North Rim and there's a population on the north rim that can move, that can move across jurisdictions of the Grand Canyon. Yeah, well, they move from, from the park onto the Kaibab. They can move on to state lands up there. So I was talking about those and I didn't realize that, that at one point in time American prairie animals. I think some excess American prairie animals went to Arizona.

[A]

Yes, probably.

[B]

Yeah. Reading about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, so that, that was used as a foundation herd for, for other conservation herds.

[A]

Yeah, we have, you know, we have 940 animals today. We have raised more than 2,000 animals in this 20 year history of bison on the landscape. And north of.650 have been distributed to other conservation herds and we've helped start a number of herds. Many of those are tribal herds, but some of them are federally or state managed herds.

[B]

You know, years ago we did an interview with Sean Garrity. Yes, Sean Garrity. How do you describe what his role is in American prairie today or just historically?

[A]

So Sean was the founder of American Prayer. This idea was not his. It came and we can talk about where the idea originated. But he was a first CEO.

[B]

Oh, so he did. Held the CEO position.

[A]

He held the CEO position. And he started with the organization. I mean he built the entire organization. He came from business, he came from a consulting background. He knew a lot about organizational management and design. And it was, you know, he was, he was the entrepreneur who built the organization. So Sean was the CEO, president, CEO for 17 years. And then I took over. I worked for Sean for 10 years and then took over in 2018 from Sean. And then he continued to serve on the board for a bit and is now an emeritus director.

[B]

Got it. What a thing that we had talked about when I spoke with him and it surprised me is I sort of, maybe other people do. I used to have an association between American Prairie, like conceptually between American Prairie and the, the Remember the sociologist that had this idea of Buffalo Commons.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He didn't like the, he didn't look, he, he was uncomfortable with the relationship. But it felt like to me, like, like if it, if, if not intentional, it was such an interesting, it was like an interesting point of comparison or an interesting coincidence. Yeah, you know, because. And I want to like explain to listeners quick, like a thing that what I'm talking about is I think it was like Frank Popper, Mary Poppers were the last name. There's these sociologists and they look this, this idea. Well, let me, let me back up even further to a different part of this. Just for listeners understanding, if you Think of, when you think of like, big national forests in the West, a lot of times national forests in the west, they were, they were, had always been set aside as forest reserves. They were undeveloped landscapes. In the east, you had this thing east of the Mississippi, a lot of these big national forests, like the one I grew up near, I grew up near the Manistee National Forest. The Manistee National Forest was assembled after the fact, like much of the Manistee National Forest had been homesteaded, and people bought it for agriculture after the big logging era. But a lot of that land couldn't be made to pay, and people bailed on it. They bailed on back taxes. They just walked away from the land. And over time, they had this. There's this whole story where they had the Weeks Act. They made money like the government had money, and they started to reassemble abandoned landscapes into the national forest forests that are in the. The eastern US years ago, it was in the 70s, maybe, someone brought up this idea that these sociologists were looking at areas on the Great Plains that they, that, that they would see, that would, over time, had less and less population. And they put forth this side. You know, it was just like this kind of observation that if, if landscapes, if landscapes depopulated, would you see like, you know, would some sort of new, like after the fact, wilderness emerge and depopulated landscapes? And, and that I, I think that when, when they were looking, they were sort of like, happened to be looking in this particular era area of the state, as Great Plains became, as portions of the Great Plains became less populated. I think I, I remember reading about this in Ian Frazier's book Great Plains.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And ultimately that's kind of where this idea emerged. But it's not, but it's not like a reflection of that. But I think that people hold that in their heads, maybe.

[A]

Yeah. And it, the idea was called Buffalo Common. So it was particularly looking at what the decimation of buffalo on the landscape. And where could buffalo come back? I think Sean's point, and it's a good one, is that they were just one of many who were looking at our Great Plains. Atif you even look at a global level, at temperate grasslands and saying, where could you restore that full ecosystem? And so I like to point out that it was the American painter George catlin in the 1830s, excuse me, who called for the establishment of a nation's park on our grasslands. He was just, as he was coming up the Missouri river, he was just, you know, astonished by the numbers of animals that he saw and he has this great quote about being lifted upon a pair of imaginary wings and seeing just endless herds of buffalo below him and calling for the establishment of a nation's park for man and beast, which, of course, never happened. And we never set aside a large portion of our grasslands.

[B]

Yeah. Why. Why was that? Like, they went out, they. They got to yellow. You know, like, you hear all the stories, the conservation history stories. Like, someone's like, Yosemite, now there's a place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That should be that. We should save a chunk of that and they go to Yellowstone. Like, man, we should save a chunk of this. But on the, on the. The grasslands, it just didn't occur to anybody.

[A]

Yeah, I think in part it was. It was timing. You know, we were. We were settling the grasslands, and of course, you know, with the. With the extermination of the. Of the buffalo, we were pushing indigenous nations off and into. Onto reservations as well. And so that period from 1872 when we established Yellowstone, through kind of the mid 20th century, we weren't viewing that the wildlife was gone from the grasslands, and we weren't viewing that as something to be protected. And I think there's also the sort of scenic bias. Right. Like, we like really tall mountains and we like. And we like deep canyons and, you know, geysers and the subtlety, you know, you know, this landscape, it's vast and complex and beautiful, but you don't. That's not. It's not. It's dramatic in a different way.

[B]

Yeah. You get something. You got to learn to love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I think about the timeline, you know, like. Like early conservationists. A way to understand how quickly early conservationists recognize certain things like Yellowstone and Yosemite. These, like, very, almost like. Like to, like, so obviously scenic. Right. That Yellowstone was a protected park. Yellowstone had tourists when. When they were. We were still fighting the Indian wars when the Nez Perce fled reservation confinement in. In eastern Washington, western Idaho, when the Nez Perce were fleeing reservation confinement and the Nez Perce War started. Part of their. A part of their retreat led them through Yellowstone and they're having, like, shootouts in the park while there are tourists there. It was like that early. That early in the history of the west, but it was just like, not.

[A]

The wagons were already going from. Yeah.

[B]

And if at that point in time someone had come in and said, man, you know, let's do a couple million acres too, out on the Great Plains, they would be like, they would be as celebrated today for that decision as we Celebrate, you know, the people that were involved in Yellowstone.

[A]

And those were the decades where we were really decimating those herds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

1870s, 1880s. Those were, you know, those were the years where, you know, that we were just slaughtering these. These animals.

[B]

Yeah. When did the. When did the idea of American Prairie first take shape? Like, how did it take shape and when did it take shape?

[A]

Yeah, there were a number of conservation organizations and coalitions in, like, the late 90s. Yeah, the late 90s, basically, who said, we're looking again at temperate grasslands across the globe, and particularly the northern Great Plains, and recognizing that we didn't have those. Those large protected areas. And it was. It was. World Wildlife Fund was the. The organization that founded American Prairie from the BE as a independent 501C3 with the model that we now have today, which is private philanthropy, to purchase private lands, to link together existing public lands. And so that this region in Montana, they recognized for its wildlife history, they recognized it for the abundance of public lands, and they recognized that well over 90% is intact native prairie has not been plowed and has been well stewarded. So the habitat is. Is in good shape. And those were really the factors that led them to choose this area. There are other bigger protected grassland areas in South Dakota and Colorado and Wyoming, but they chose this area for American Prairie to do its work.

[B]

When did you first find out about it? How did you first get turned onto it? Personally?

[A]

Yeah, personally. So I moved. I'm from a small town in Vermont, and I spent a summer up in Glacier national park and college, and that was the beginning of my time in mud Montana. I met a Montanan who's now my husband and just completely fell in love with the big landscapes of the west, big tracks of public land. I grew up hiking in the White Mountains in New Hampshire and the Green Mountains in Vermont. But these really, really big expanses of public lands were relatively new to me, so I would have probably come into Montana anyway. So I moved to Bozeman right after college and worked for a software company for a few years. And while I was here, met a college classmate of mine whose parents were involved with American Prairie. And that's how I learned about it. So after I went to graduate school, we moved back to Bozeman, and that's when I got involved.

[B]

When American Prairie was taking shape, like, it was called American Prairie foundation at the time, what was the first step like? The first step had to have been like a piece of land acquisition.

[A]

I mean, the first step was building a board of directors.

[B]

I Guess the first tangible step.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. First. Yeah. So first step was building, building a board, starting to raise money, and then. And then, yeah, and then acquiring property. The first property was the end of 2004, so that we were founded in 2001. That was a pretty quick turn to get the. To get the organization up off the. Off the ground.

[B]

You know, think that, like, on that property. I want to talk about that property purchase for a minute because this is the thing that always puzzles me about the conversations that. That people have around American prairie. Is it like you. You guys have always been like, willing seller, willing buyer.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. It's like if someone owns land, like most Americans, most Westerners would agree that if someone owns a ranch and they decide their family decides that it's time to sell the ranch, that that would be their business. Most people would agree with this, that it would be that when you want to sell a ranch, that's your call, that there wouldn't be like a government entity would come in and say, you cannot sell that ranch. You must hold onto that ranch. People would agree that you should be able to do what you want. So you list it and you have a price, and no one's holding a gun to your head. And you, as a free American, like a free Westerner, takes their offers, and you consider the offers that you have, you consider the bids that you have, and you sell to the 1. Generally speaking, I think most people are going to sell to the highest bidder and they're going to sell to the. To. To who they choose.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I would feel that most Americans, most Westerners would be like, that makes sense to me.

[A]

I think they do.

[B]

Yeah, they do.

[A]

No, I think they do not if.

[B]

But oftentimes not if you guys buy it, which to me is so weird because people, like, get. It's an ath. Like. Like, I mean, just like, frankly, anyone doing any kind of major thing, like, it becomes controversial. Like, frankly, like, you guys. I mean, you can't deny it. Like, you guys are a, like, somewhat controversial organization.

[A]

I appreciate that qualifier. Yes, yes. No, we are, absolutely.

[B]

But it's like. And I have, like, all kinds of things I wonder about, and I'll ask you those questions. I have things I wonder about. But it's like, foundationally, it surprises me how many people are antagonistic to a principle that they have to broadly support, which is like, that if you want to sell a thing and someone wants to buy a thing, whose business is it besides the seller and the buyer? But people get so worked up about who's buying. It's like, that's not your problem. Like, that's a, that's kind of a view I have on it is. I'm surprised that upsets people.

[A]

Yeah. No, I agree with everything you've said. We've done this 49 times now.

[B]

If I sold my house and someone bought my house that later someone would be mad. I'm like, dude, mind your own business.

[A]

Well, I think, I think two things can be true though, Steve. I think they can say. They can say, well, good for my neighbor. My neighbor found a buyer who will pay fair market value. My neighbor might have found a buyer who has agreed to lease back to them for a number of years so they can have some transition their family or transition their operations somewhere else. They can say, can think, yes, good for my buyer. Private market transaction. Willing buyer, willing seller. They can also be disappointed and wish that their new neighbor was, you know, was going to be. Was it was a cattle rancher or was going. Or was a different buyer. Right. And was not American prairie. So it's, it's change and there's change.

[B]

But if you were, if you were buying for a data center, then I would understand people being pissed more. I would better understand people being pissed. But if you imagine that there's like, there's a spectrum. Okay. There's a spectrum being like on one end of the spectrum is data center. Right. Or like, I don't know, a data center, a nuclear power plant, like, whatever. There's a spectrum of refinery. Okay.

[A]

Even a large residential development.

[B]

Maybe a big residential. Big residential development. Yeah, whatever that's. On one end would be like, oh man, that's a bummer. Right. On the other end would be. On the other end would be like habitat preservation and restoration, which is kind of like more of a, like it's more of a like doing. Of not doing on one end. And then over here is like data center. And I would say that like running cattle sits very close to the habitat thing. I'm a cows, not condos guy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So I would put like running cattle over in this area, data center over in this area, develop like housing development. This.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So like the fact that you're. The fact that you guys buy land in order to have it be just kind of like habitat seems to me like sort of like even like that reinforces in my mind what would be like a non issue.

[A]

Well, I'm really glad you're raising this because I think most of our neighbors. I know most of our neighbors don't mind Having us as a neighbor, we have a lot in common. And of course, what gets blown up, it's the loudest voices is the controversy. But whether there are cows on American prairies lands or bison, and there are a lot more cows than bison and we can talk about that. The. There's a lot of common ground in the way that we're running our operations. There's a lot of common love and appreciation and responsibility for the stewardship of these grasslands, the stewardship of these grasslands for a lot of different wildlife species. We're buying the same trucks, we're using the same fencing contractors. It is a. There is a lot, a lot of common ground. And you don't, you don't see that common ground necessarily in a slogan. Right?

[B]

Yeah. You've heard About T mobile 5G home Internet, mostly for how easy it is to set up and then the value that you get. Well, there's some more big news you should know about. They now have the fastest 5G home Internet speeds. That's right. T Mobile now has the fastest 5G home Internet, according to the experts at OOKLA Speed Test. That makes backing up photos from your latest hunt, streaming a new documentary or pulling up a wild game recipe super quick. And yeah, it's a great value backed by a solid five year price guarantee. And setting it up is still as easy as it gets. You just plug it in and go. So if you want the fastest 5G home Internet with a simple setup at a great price, with savings that stick around, Get T Mobile 5G Home Internet. Head over to t-mobile.com home Internet to check availability, price guarantee exclusions like taxes and fees apply fastest based on Ookla Speed Test intelligence Data over the second half of 2025. All rights reserved. Hey, as outdoorsmen, we always spend a lot of time thinking about how we interact with the land, how we care for the land. But then yard care, like your lawn care, defaults to chemical heavy routines. The tree. Every yard the same well, Sunday offers a different model. They begin by understanding your soil and local climate, then build a customized yard plan designed specifically for your environment. Their products rely on nutrient dense ingredients like seaweed, molasses and iron rather than harsh synthetic chemicals. Everything arrives at your door and connects to a hose, simplifying what has traditionally been a complicated trial and error process. It's a more targeted, more thoughtful approach to caring for the space just outside your home. Less guesswork, less excess. Fewer unnecessary treatments. If you're curious what your yard actually needs and prefer a smarter way to Support it Sunday makes that process remarkably straightforward. Go to getsunday.com to get your free custom yard analysis. That's getsunday.com this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. And at Better Help, they're taking a moment to celebrate women and all that they carry and work and relationships and families. When I think of that, I think of my lovely and beautiful wife who acts as our chief operating officer, chief financial officer. I mean, she's kind of like just the general CEO of the family and carries all of that responsibility on her shoulders. And for that I might be grateful because it lets me focus on the stuff that I'm best at. If you have a hard time, if you ever have any trouble partnering with the women in your life, perhaps therapy could help you out. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10 [e-mail] Me Eater that's BetterHelp. H E L P.com Meater what in your mind, like if you had to express it to somebody, what, what in your mind is the. Like, what in your mind do people feel is being lost on this? From your perspective, what do they feel is being lost on this? Like, you know, sizable piece of ground, but. But not something on the scale of like, you know, not even on this. It's not even on the scale of what we have agreed to be a wildlife refuge.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's change and it's change that has been occur on this landscape for decades and it is perceived as a loss of a way of life. And there's been consolidation in, you know, consolidation of land ownership over those decades. There has been, you know, public lands ranching is a very, very difficult business. It's a very difficult business. And there are a lot of global factors that are not that America prairie has nothing to do with that are putting pressure on the industry. And then an organization comes in and is the new kid on the block has different aims for their private lands and is bringing in a new species like buffalo. And it represents change.

[B]

And I think that's a new old.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, well, yes, exactly, a new old because. Because bison are not of course, new to this landscape. But yeah, I think, I think that's, I think that's really at the root of it.

[B]

What, what do you, how, what would you say in conversation like, you did a great, I appreciate your ability to articulate that. A lot of people I find don't, Aren't comfortable articulating someone else's perspective.

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm not entirely, no, I'm not entirely comfortable too, because I'm, I don't. I not, you know, native to Phillips county. And I certainly have spent a lot, a lot of time on that landscape. And I've, you know, I know a lot of our neighbors, our team knows a lot of our neighbors. I've heard the perspective articulated, so I want to be, you know, somewhat careful putting words in people's mouths. But I also see, I grew up in a small town and I know how much small towns value community, value tradition. And you see the one room schoolhouses and you see, you know, you hear about the traditions that some of which still exist that used to happen up there. Like one time we were at one of the community halls and we were having a big community feed. It was really fun. A bunch of American prairie folks were there and our neighbors were there and kids were all running around and the kids came out with a pole vault. Like, we're in the middle of ranch country. I didn't know a pole vault of all things. And I learned that there used to be an event at these community schools that was a track meet or a spelling bee in the morning and a track meet in the afternoon. And that's a really cool, that's a really cool community tradition amongst all these country schools, of which there are not many anymore. And so, you know, that human, honoring that human heritage in those kind of life ways on the prairie, whether they're, you know, indigenous and are for thousands of years or if. Or they're more recent. Settling ranching families for number of generations like that is important to American prairie and recognizing that everyone's still out there and we together can look at what, what is the, what is the future of the landscape? What are our shared values? What do we want this, this place to look like? Those are the conversations that we, that we want to be having.

[B]

How many bison do you guys have on the ground right now?

[A]

940.

[B]

You know, how many cattle are in this state?

[A]

In this. I know it's a lot more than, a lot more cattle than people. And I know in the couple million. It's a couple million. Yeah, I Was going to say two.

[B]

How many bison?

[A]

940. And there are about a half million cattle in the seven counties where we own land. And on American Prairies properties, there are 8 to 10,000 cattle because we're leasing that. We're leasing either to the former owner or leasing to a neighbor on 10 of our 12 units.

[B]

Yeah. Can you remind me again the. How many deeded acres you have?

[A]

You have about 170,000 deeded acres.

[B]

170,000 deeded acres. And people. You allow people. People can walk across, like people can walk on all that land?

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's all open. Yeah. People can walk. They can cross. Always cross. With a couple of exceptions, like right by our staff houses. But they can cross deeded land to get to public land. We have dispersed camping, and we could talk about how we open access, but you know, we have 80,000 acres enrolled in block management in. In Montana in. In on those properties. So.

[B]

Yeah, I want to talk about that.

[A]

Yeah, we can talk about that.

[B]

I want to talk about the walking part, though, just for a minute.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Meaning if someone's going along on Onx, they're cruising along and Onx, they see all the land ownership would say American Prairie. Right. So if you see American Prairie on Onx, you'd be able to park. You can park your car and go walk around.

[A]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

No one's gonna yell at you.

[A]

No one's gonna yell at you? No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They're gonna welcome you.

[B]

Yeah. On the. On the land that you have grazing leases, the only thing you really have access to is you just have the leasing, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you have.

[A]

It's a leasing privilege.

[B]

Yeah. Leasing privilege. Meaning if. If you have a lease on BLM land, that doesn't have any factor on someone going and hunting birds on the BLM land.

[A]

No.

[B]

Doing whatever they do. Yeah. It's just like regular public land. So when someone says. When you say you have federal lands that are leased, BLM lands that are leased, what that means is you have like, you have like an exclusivity around grazing livestock.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And that's it. It's not like you don't have like. Like it doesn't come with mineral rights, it doesn't come with. With exclusive hunting rights. It just is grazing.

[A]

That's. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. In this part of. Of. Well across the west, but particularly in this part of Montana, most ranching operations are made. Their ranching operations are made up of about a third deeded private acres and 2/3 leased acres. Primarily BLM, but there are state sections in there as well. And the ranching operation depends on both that private land and that public land. But as the owner of what's called the base property, you have that preferential grazing privilege on those associated public lands and the 10 year renewable grazing.

[B]

10 year renewable, yes. So when you buy a ranch, if that ranch has a lease, the lease transfers to the new buyer.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Got it. And that's good until you're. If you renew it or not.

[A]

Yeah, you have to be. You have to pay your grazing fees. Fees and be a good steward of those lands and take care of that rangeland. But yes, it continues to renew as long as that you meet those conditions.

[B]

Can you explain for me what. I kind of. I mostly understand it, but I'd like to hear you explain it in the news. Lately there's been this. I don't know what I call it. There's been this policy shift of saying that if you lease land and run. If you le. If you have a grazing lease, historically, you would be able to graze buffalo on that ground. But there's a move now to make it that you cannot. Yes, that's got to be just. That's gotta be just. Cause that's gotta be just directed at you, right?

[A]

Oh, yes, it is. Yes, it's directed just at us.

[B]

So like that would have not come up.

[A]

So going back if it wasn't for you guys. Yeah, going back to. And then we're right in the middle of this. So final decision has not come out. There's a proposed decision from the. From the blm.

[B]

Yeah. Lay this all out. This has been very interesting.

[A]

So this, this grazing regime that I just talked about ties back to the 1934 Grazing act, the Taylor Grazing act of 1934. And that grazing act was to sort of make sure we're taking good care of our rangelands in the West. And that's what established. Started this precedent of these grazing privileges tied to base properties. The Taylor Grazing act. And it's to support the livestock industry. And that the Taylor Grazing act, though does not say what species and bison have been. Bison are livestock in Montana. So important thing to say is that American Prairie's bison are livestock and they are our private property. We pay the livestock taxes on those. We pay obviously the grazing fees. And we are not alone in grazing bison on public lands. And so American Prairie has been permitted to graze bison as livestock after environmental assessment is done on the. On the affected lands. We have been permitted to do that since 2000. Five. So 20 years. And Bison have been grazing on public lands for 40 years, and they have been grazing in six states, and there are about 40 permittees across those six states who are grazing bison on these public lands.

[B]

And that's been happening for 40 years.

[A]

That's been happening for 40 years. For American Prairie, it's been happening for 20 years.

[B]

Yeah. So I want, I need to pause on thing just, just to help listeners. This is a thing I talk about frequently, but just to help listeners understand. The thing is, we recently covered on the podcast this interesting move that Colorado made. Colorado passed legislation that says if a, if a buffalo walks into the state of Colorado, like, naturally walks in on his own four hooves, he's wildlife. Okay, but that, but that designation of them coming in from a, like walking in as wildlife, that designation doesn't impact privately owned ones, which are regulated as livestock. Montana doesn't have an equivalent law. Wyoming doesn't have an equivalent law to that. Meaning when they're on, when they're in the state, they're regarded as a livestock animal. This is me talking, not you talking. Like, I wholeheartedly disagree with that. Like, I think that, I think that other states, and again, this is Steve, not Allison, saying this. I would love to see, like, Montana could be doing a lot more. Wyoming could be doing a lot more to create room for buffalo to be wildlife. They could be doing a lot more to create buffalo space for them as a wildlife species, which they are, but they're not legally regarded as wildlife. But your point being, I think, is important to understand is that you guys have animals. You have bison, but your bison are like a, they're legally livestock, and so they're registered as livestock. Like, you have to be like, each one is a registered creature.

[A]

Well, we have to meet all the disease requirements. And they are fenced, obviously, and we're meeting all the, the, the requirements of the Montana Department of Livestock. Yeah, I think what, I think a

[B]

difference is you got, you know what it might be, and I want you to continue. But it's like, part of the thing is, you guys, in my, I, I, in my view, there's a sort of, that you perceive of them as, like, you perceive of them as wildlife. You're still able to imagine them as wildlife.

[A]

We manage them, and we absolutely manage them. We manage them for their wild characteristics and their display of wild characteristics. But we are disease testing them, we are vaccinating them, we are keeping them home, are paying attention to stocking rates. We are rounding them up and running them through Our handling facility following low stress techniques for sure. So that both. We're paying a lot of attention to human safety and animal safety, but we are absolutely managing them. But this is. You're getting at the root of what the BLM has now said, which is that our bison are not production animals and they have not defined production. They've never used a production standard in the past. But they are saying, they're arguing that because our animals are not production animals, that that's why they're proposing changing these bison grazing permits back to cattle only grazing permits.

[B]

So just, just I want to make sure because I kind of like made us go off on that little livestock, wildlife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thing. Just just to get to re. Clarify a point you made that 40 years ago someone allowed, it was decided that if you had a grazing, a federal grazing lease, meaning you have the, you have the right to run your livestock on federally managed public land.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Say blm, BLM ground. The BLM ground stays open to everybody. You can still hunt it, hang out, do whatever you want to do on there, but someone has the right to breed, to graze it with their animals. Forty years ago you could, your animals could be cattle, your animals could be

[A]

bison, they could be goats, they could be sheep.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

On that thing, time goes on and, and someone right, very recently is like, hey, wait a minute, I don't like what's going on. I don't like this whole bison thing going on up here. We should have it be that that doesn't count.

[A]

Yes. And More specifically, in 2019, we put in for a change of use request to change to bison on six federal allotments. And the BLM did a three year environmental analysis to determine that, yes, American prairie could have these bison grazing permits on these six allotments. Allotments are what are what the chunks of BLM land are called. And they made that decision in July of 2022.

[B]

Okay. What did the environmental impact statement turn up?

[A]

It turned up that bison are good for the land. Yeah.

[B]

They eat grass, they drop manure. Kind of like a cow.

[A]

Yeah. No, like a cow, of course. No. The environmental impacts are good for the land and that the social and economic impacts are good too, basically. So they did a very thorough analysis. There was a public comment period. Obviously it was a three year process, so it was thorough. And then that was immediately challenged by the governor's office and a number of state agencies and the Montana stock growers. We were winning those challenges in administrative court. And then the Bureau of Land Management pulled back their decision And January said, we're gonna reevaluate this. And then the following January, just this year, came out with this new decision, with this new production requirement, with this new way of looking at livestock. And just very clear, nothing changed about our management, nothing changed about the conditions on the ground. They are reinterpreting their own laws with a very thin fact pattern and no legal precedents because some of this has been challenged in the courts over those 40 years. And bison were an acceptable grazer on these federal lands, and now they're proposing that they're not. And I think one of the. What we've seen is that others are stepping forward to say, wait a minute, what kind of precedent does this set if you are building your business? And American Prairie's bison program is not inexpensive. We've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on fencing. We're spending. We spent millions and millions of dollars on this program. And it's important part of our business. But we've made a number of business decisions. We've made commitments to other conservation herds to distribute animals. And so we've built a lot of our. We made a lot of business decisions, right, based on the way things had been. And so you hear people making that slippery slope argument, like what's to say keep a future administration from just arbitrarily changing the rules. And what does this mean for other bison herds? And the coalition of large tribes wrote a compelling protest saying, what impact could this have on tribal herds?

[B]

Do the tribes have herds that graze on federal lands?

[A]

They do, they do. And they recognize that. They also recognize that American Prairie has, you know, we're not an indigenous led organization, but we are part of this bison conservation family, right team, continent wide. And we have distributed, As I mentioned, 660 bison to, to other conservation herds. There's a lot of exchange of genetics, exchange of animals. We've helped start conservation herds. And so if you take you hamstring American Prairie's ability to do that, the tribes pointed that out. They also pointed out that American Prairie's management, back to your point about the way that we manage our bison for minimal handling, low stocking rates, as natural in the landscape as possible, that is in the indigenous tradition. And the protest even says that. But that American Prairie's way of managing is similar to the way that tribal herds are managed

[B]

on the thing that the productions question, and forgive me for not understanding the proposal, the chain, like the wording change, is the gripe that it's. Is the gripe that it's bison or is the Gripe that it's not that, it's not that they're not being raised with meat production in mind.

[A]

The latter. More. The latter. Okay, yeah, yeah, they're saying, yeah, they're saying that they need to be production animals. And so they're disregard. So our response to this protest was this production standard is brand new. It's nowhere in the regulations or the case law. But if there was a production standard, what is that production standard? Because not only is American prairie distributing these animals to other herds, other herds, many of whom are sort of food sovereignty herds, so are absolutely, you know, those animals are consumed. American prairie also has a robust public harvest program and we have. 370 of our animals have been harvested by the public and that's tens of thousands of pounds of meat. And so this idea that the BLM is going to come in and dictate exactly how you manage your animals for production and they're only going to do it for this one species, for cows. They're not going to do it for bison, or excuse me, for. For bison. They're not going to do it for cows is really hard to get your head around. Right. Because cattle producers are like, are going, some cattle producers are reducing their stocking rates for conservation purposes. Right. Does that, would that make their, would they not be meeting some sort of standard? So that's our argument is this isn't anywhere in the case law, this isn't anywhere in the regulations, and what does production even mean?

[B]

So what will happen next on this whole thing?

[A]

So there was a 15 day protest period. We protested, as I mentioned, did a number of other organizations and then the BLM has 45 days to issue a final decision. That final decision could come down any day now. And then we will, you know, assuming that their final decision is the same as their proposed decision, we will challenge this in both the administrative and the federal courts.

[B]

What do you think the final decision is going to be? Same.

[A]

Yeah, we think it's going to be the same.

[B]

Just sticking it to you,

[A]

Steve. What I do want to focus on is that right now those animals are out on the same lands. We have not had to change our operations. We have contingency plans. We have contingency plans A through F. Right. And they're expensive and they're time consuming. But we have a plan to take care of those animals and to do so safely. And our mission's moving forward. Right. We're going to continue to buy habitat. We're going to continue to welcome the public to that habitat. We're going to continue to restore habitat. We're going to continue to raise bison. So while it may look in the public sphere like this is all American prairie is focused on right now, it is far from what all we are focused on right now. We're focused on moving our mission forward. And I think that's been one of the most comforting things about being part of this organization, leading this organization. We get to look decades down the road.

[B]

Sure. I understand that. It's still a kick to the nuts, though. But I understand. You gotta still keep looking forward, though. Yeah. I mean, it's been fascinating to watch, man.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, probably not.

[B]

That's probably the word you would use for it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a hiccup, it's a hurdle, it's, it's expensive, it's, you know, it's time consuming. But we're, we're committed to bison conservation.

[B]

You've heard About T mobile 5G home Internet, mostly for how easy it is to set up and then the value that you get. Well, there's some more big news you should know about. They now have the fastest 5G home Internet speeds. That's right. T Mobile now has the fastest 5G home Internet according to the experts at Ookla Speed Test. That makes backing up photos from your latest hunt, streaming a new documentary, or pulling up a wild game recipe super quick. And yeah, it's a great value backed by a solid five year price guarantee. And setting it up is still as easy as it gets. You just plug it in and go. So if you want the fastest 5G home Internet with a simple setup at a great price, with savings that stick around, get T Mobile 5G Home Internet. Head over to t-mobile.com home Internet to check availability. Price guarantee exclusions like taxes and fees apply. Fastest based on OOKLA speed test intelligence Data over the second half of 2025. All rights reserved. Hey, as outdoorsmen, we always spend a lot of time thinking about how we interact with the land, how we care for the land. But then yard care, like your lawn care, defaults to chemical heavy routines. The tree. Every yard the same well, Sunday offers a different model. They begin by understanding your soil and local climate, then build a customized yard plan designed specifically for your environment. Their products rely on nutrient dense ingredients like seaweed, molasses and iron rather than harsh synthetic chemicals. Everything arrives at your door and connects to a hose, simplifying what has traditionally been a complicated trial and error process. It's A more targeted, more thoughtful approach to caring for the space just outside your home. Less guesswork, less excess. Fewer unnecessary treatments. If you're curious what your yard actually needs and prefer a smarter way to support it, Sunday makes that process remarkably straightforward. Go to getsunday.com to get your free custom yard analysis. That's getsunday.com I'll tell I get a ton of satisfaction out of processing game meat that me and my family can eat. You know, last night we vac sealed some mallards, we vac sealed some Canada goose breasts, all in my LEM Vac sealer, which I love. LEM Products has been a trusted leader in making game processing possible. What started in an Ohio garage is now a family owned company with a legacy of innovation and quality across their full line of commercial grade grinders, sealers, dehydrators, stuffers and slicers. From their big bite grinders to their cordless vacuum sealers, the stuff is built for reliability and performance. It's not just a purchase when you get lem, it's an investment in feeding your friends and family for years to come. And with rising meat prices, processing your own wild game is more practical than ever. Don't wait to get the gear you need. Go to LemProducts.com and use code Steve20 for 20 off your order. It's time to take control of your harvest, build new traditions and experience the pride of a well stocked freezer. Let's talk about the access program in the state. Yeah, okay. I'm gonna tell you a bunch of stuff you already know because I'm just telling the listeners this. In the state of Montana, like, like, like, like many states, the state has the access, they have a handful of access programs. Hunting access programs. One of their hunting access. They're kind of the main marquee hunting access programs called the block management program where you have again, this is like a willing, willing seller, willing buyer situation. The state fish and game agency, they raise funds, they fund their agency through hunting license sales tags and stamps. Right. They're able to take some of that money that they get from selling hunting licenses. I think a big chunk of the funding comes from selling non resident hunting licenses and they're able to, they make a pool of money. If a landowner is willing to allow hunting access on their land, they can, they can get compensated by the state.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay. So then a, a public hunter can wind up, they're administered in different ways. Like you need to get a, some of you just go out and hunt. You sign up at a Sign up box. Some of you need to get a reservation, but however it works, they're administered in different ways, but however it works, the hunter, no cost to them, is able to go hunt. These block management lands, usually, usually some, usually a lot of agricultural lands, ranch land, farm country, no cost to them. The state compensates the landowner. You guys, do you guys have some enrollment in Block Management? What's like, like, sort of like organizationally, what is your, what is your attitude about the block Management program and enrollment? Like, like, how do you decide what's, how do you decide what's in, what's out, how much is in, how much is out?

[A]

Yeah. So, you know, philosophically, what we would like to see over time is larger wildlife populations on, on these lands. We, we, they are not at their ecological carrying capacity. We fully support hunting, we provide a lot of hunting access. And what we're going for is a, is a quality, quality hunt, right? So fewer people. Quality hunt, right? So we have a group within the organization called parc, the Public Access and Recreation Committee and anytime, and they set or make our public access policies, whether that's about what roads are open, what hunting access is allowed, what species are allowed on a particular property. And they're using a lot of data and input from FWP and from others to make those recommendations for those properties, and then those go to the leadership team to approve. So anytime we buy a new property, and we bought six last year, they spent about a year getting to know that property, right? Getting to know the roads, getting to know the infrastructure, working with the lessee, whether that's the existing lessee or a new lessee, and understanding how we're going to open it up to the public. But within a year, our goal is to open that property up to the public. And so each of our units has a different management. A lot of it is what's called type 2 block management. Type 1 is the sign in box. Type 2 is call in and make a reservation. So right now we have about 80,000 acres enrolled in Block Management, which makes us, I believe it's the 10th largest participant in the entire state in the block management program. So you can go to our website, it really clearly spells out which properties, you know, what hunting is allowed on the properties, how to make a reservation. And FWP is a great partner in managing all of that we've done. We have one property where we manage the hunting access ourselves, and we've experimented with this in the past. And having a partner like FWP to do that to, to manage it, to take those calls, to make those reservations, let alone to do the enforcement, have the wardens on the ground. That's, that's tremendously beneficial to us.

[B]

One of the things that makes, one of the things that makes block management work is it gives the. A landowner can sign up in degrees.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, so let's say you're a landowner and for whatever reason you have, you have a thing where you could never imagine any scenario in which someone hurting a turkey was acceptable. You had like a great affinity for turkeys. You could say, like, hey, I want to do black management, but here's the deal, no turkeys.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the state's going to go along. I believe there's a point at which the restrictions get so great that they don't. That it's the, that it's not worth the participation for them. Yes, yes, but, but, but you guys are. But, but American prairie though, you have a lot of things. Like your restrictions are much different than the state's hunting restrictions. Like you have big areas that are open to black management, but they're not open to mule deer.

[A]

Yes. I was going to use mule deer as an example. That's you. I think you was with Senator Heinrich that you were talking about mule deer populations.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's. No, I believe it's north of the River Region 6, where we don't allow any mule deer hunting. And that's because of what the data says about the mule deer populations. So yeah, we're making those species determinations on a property by property basis, but we're allowing a lot of access and thousands and thousands and thousands of hunter days each year. Okay, go ahead.

[B]

Oh no, no. I imagine that as you see like across the west as we see whitetail numbers, like just generally broads like wide scale increase in whitetail numbers, decrease in mule deer numbers. Most your lands are open for whitetails, most your lands are closed for mule deer. Even if the state is allowing mule deer hunts in those areas. Yeah, yeah. Now what like is most of stuff open for pheasant?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Because that would be easy because it's a non native bird.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Most of the stuff there's. We have some incredible elk hunting opportunities in the larb hills in region six. We actually, that's the one we manage on our own. We do a special draw. That's a special draw district within for FWP and then we allow, I think it's about 18 opportunities and that is a coveted opportunity. There's some youth opportunities in there, but so yeah, it's property by property. It is a year by year. But it all reflects our commitment to hunting and to public access.

[B]

How does it normally work? If you guys did six land acquisitions last year, what's your sort of batting average on land acquisitions? I mean, like, how many, like in the area where you're operating, how many listings are there in a year, would you say?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And of those listings, how many are you interested in? And of the ones you're interested in, how many do you close?

[A]

So six was a lot of transactions for us.

[B]

That was a big year.

[A]

That was a very big year. We added about 78,000 acres through those six transactions last year. And I definitely want to talk a bit about the anchor ranch because that was the biggest of those, of those transactions, that 67,000 of those 78,000 acres was the, the anchor ranch. And you know, I don't know how to. We're not talking about a lot of properties. Right. Like on average, we've probably been adding two, three properties per year. There is often competition for those properties. We don't get every single one of them. And you know, in some cases these are family decisions that are, that are made over whether it's a resident landowner or an out of state landowner. They're decisions that are made over a number of years. Right. So a number of these properties, we've been talking to landowner for a number of years. So it's hard to, so it's hard to say. Sort of like, you know, the sample size is so small it's hard to say a true batting average, but hopefully that's a little bit helpful.

[B]

But some, presumably, some don't work out.

[A]

Yeah, they don't work out. Yeah. The landowner wants a price that we, that is not fair market value and we're not, we're not willing to pay it.

[B]

How often do you run into a landowner that would be like, hey, your bid's higher, but I, I'm choosing to accept less money from a traditional cattle rancher.

[A]

I mean, we don't. Because none of this is public information. We don't know what other people are. Right, right. We know a lot about the market from appraisal data. We know a lot about the market from brokers. We're spending a lot of time figuring out sort of what is the fair market value. We're getting appraisals. We have no interest in paying above fair market value because we, we have more property to buy and we have to raise every single dollar that goes into, to each of those of those acquisitions.

[B]

What's Your like, what's the organization's like, timeline? Like how long you. This is going to lead to another question, like, what is the plan? But like, like, how long are you guys, you know, I mean, like how long can you imagine being solvent in like continuing the mission for? Do you know what I'm saying?

[A]

I mean, we intend to fulfill the mission of the organization.

[B]

If you had a guess, like, in all seriousness, if you had to say, like, it'll take, it would take like roughly how long?

[A]

Oh, the acquisition phase will be additional decades.

[B]

More decades.

[A]

More decades? Yeah, absolutely, more decades. As the land comes available, we will purchase it and, and in the meantime, we will continue to steward and restore and open to the public what we have. But there is not. You know, I think what I've always appreciated about America Prairie is that there are a lot of ways to measure progress. There are a lot of numbers that I could throw at you. Whether that's, you know, what the most obvious of course is acres added. But we track visitor nights. Like we have two campgrounds and a series of public huts that are open to the public. And those numbers are increasing every year. We have, I think it was last year, about 6,600 overnight visitors at our properties. So we are tracking miles of stream restored, we're tracking fence removal and fence conversion. We have, we have a staff member who tracks the tonnage of metal that he's removing from the prairie. Right. Because part of the de, sort of junkifying the landscape, that's when you're removing an old dump or you're auctioning off an old building that's not needed anymore. We're measuring that. So there are a lot of ways to measure progress. And we're not holding ourselves, we don't need to hold ourselves to a firm timeline to complete the acquisition. Obviously, the longer it takes, the more expensive it is and the more money we need to raise. But it's not like on an annual basis or even a five year basis. We certainly set goals, but some of those milestones are, or target milestones are not in our control. And that's okay.

[B]

You realize visitation can backfire, right? I mean that was like, like with Yellowstone, dude, it's like Yellowstone's like a nightmare.

[A]

Oh. I mean, I live in the state, I know that.

[B]

But like that needs to be turned into a wilderness area.

[A]

There, there's my whole plan.

[B]

It's big, a big trailhead. I'm gonna keep anything that, any highway that goes through it, I'm gonna keep. This is if I'm ever Emperor. Okay, the bisecting highways I'll keep open. I would dismantle all the infrastructure. I would keep the highways that go through open. I would put in large trailheads here and there. And the whole thing would be a wilderness area. Just unpark it. It's a very controversial idea.

[A]

No, I mean, very controversial.

[B]

I was gonna say my kid's been yelled at because I have this viewpoint. Your dad wants to, but he doesn't understand what wilderness area is. It would protect the park more. You follow me? I'm just saying visitation can backfire. I mean, that place is a chaos.

[A]

Oh yeah, but they have four. Was it 5 million visitors last year? No, we're talking maybe 10,000. So. Okay, but, but when you get up

[B]

into the millions, let me know and I might warn.

[A]

That's a point you're making, which is you can be really thoughtful about where you put infrastructure. And you know, I did a tour of Yellowstone, sort of a behind the scenes tour. And, and I was reminded that that Figure 8 road and the lot, the placement of lodges is because that's how long a carriage ride was. There was 17 miles, 19 miles. And so that park was, was built for visitors in that way with the gas stations and the, and the, and the lodges and the, and there are a lot of roads. Right. It's not just lot of roads, lot of roads.

[B]

And I want people to understand when my plan comes in, I'm not gonna mess with any kind of flow through traffic. I'm not going to mess with interstate traffic.

[A]

I'm going to say take, take 20 through Idaho.

[B]

Yeah, all that's going to be fine. That's not going to be interrupted. Just so people are clear on this, do you guys have like a, you guys have like yet funding? Like you don't fund. You have a network of donors, obviously, probably globally. Right.

[A]

We mostly in the United states. I think 3% of our dollars raised have come from outside of the state.

[B]

Oh really?

[A]

Excuse me, Outside of the country. And we had donors from all 50 states. It's not all 50 states every year, but. And about 15% of our money last year came from Montana.

[B]

Okay. And when you do an acquisition, you don't fundraise specifically around an acquisition. You fundraise on the mission.

[A]

Well, sometimes we fundraise for an acquisition.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

Yeah, sometimes we fundraise for an acquisition. Yep. We've, you know, we're fundraising to support the organization's ongoing operations and stewarding those 600,000 acres and supporting our team of 50 people and all the roles that they play. Right. In keeping a nonprofit going. And then we're. And then we're fundraising for acquisition, and then we are also fundraising for an endowment because we. And once we are through with this acquisition phase, we envision an endowment large enough to take care of the basic operations of the place. There'll be some revenue generating activities for sure, but we want that endowment to be able to pay the taxes and support the bison herd and take care of the operations.

[B]

One thing I think people wonder about, and maybe you can't even answer it. It's like, I think people wonder, like, what. What is the ultimate. Like, let's go forward a century. Okay. What is American prairie in 100 years? Is it a park?

[A]

No. Capital P. Park capital? No.

[B]

Is there ever a point, like, is there ever a point where you'd go like, ha, we're done. And then when there's a favorable administration, you'd be like, ha, we're done. And you'd be like, we now are handing this over. This is the national park that we did. That they didn't think to create, but we made it.

[A]

No. We believe that a public private partnership, collaboration is the right solution for this landscape.

[B]

We will have to think that would work in perpetuity.

[A]

I think it can work in perpetuity. And I think if you look at the condition of our parks and the backlog, I think that there's a real opportunity to have multiple landowners at the table, meaning a private landowner and these agencies managing toward common goals, toward those common wildlife and public access goals.

[B]

The. What I wonder about, though, is like, because it's so hard to anticipate, right. Political changes.

[A]

You don't need to tell me that. Okay.

[B]

That, like. And even if it was the plan, I don't. I think it'd be, like, hard for you guys to talk about it publicly. You follow me?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Because you'd. You'd want. You'd keep it secret.

[A]

Right? But I, like, that is not the plan. But do I have a crystal ball for a hundred years from, like, let's talk about bison.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are bison gonna be?

[B]

There's gonna be. Here's my prediction. There's gonna be more in a hundred years. This is my prediction. Corinne and I have been arguing a lot. Not arguing, texting back and forth about. She hates poly markets. Doesn't hate them. She just.

[A]

Prediction market.

[B]

Okay. Not poly. Yeah, she. She. I don't want to put words in her mouth. She views prediction markets as a. As a very volatile industry, as people are like, there's this new thing, like what are the regulations going to be like? She, it's taking shape. I just feel like I'm kind of curious about them. She's sort of curious about what their future holds. What they need to figure out is how to do long term wagers. Like I would make a 100 year wager that would benefit my children's children when I won. Right. That's like the bet I would make. So this is one of those for when we build like the way ass future prediction market thing which is like estate planning.

[A]

Will the world end or not?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is 100 years. Okay.

[B]

It's like estate planning. If I could do that, I would put a lot of money on this. If there was a reliable way to make hundred year bets that would benefit my children's children. When I proved to be right.

[A]

Okay, 21, 26. Yep.

[B]

I would bet there are. I don't want to say a lot. There are quite a bit more. There are quite a bit more wild, free roaming buffalo on the landscape that can cross political jurisdictions that can freely cross political jurisdictions that are wildlife. That are treated as wildlife.

[A]

Treated as wildlife.

[B]

Yeah, there's more of that. There's more of that.

[A]

It's our national mammal, Steve.

[B]

Yeah, but that was toothless. It came with nothing. It came with nothing. It was the biggest. I was glad. I was glad. But let's be honest. It meant nothing. It meant nothing. It was purely symbolic.

[A]

Yes. But I hope it reminds. It reminds our citizens of this natural heritage and of what we had on the landscape.

[B]

You need to be suspicious. You know, you've been alive long enough to be suspicious. You need to be suspicious of anything that's frictionless. There wasn't like when they were going like, hey, it's gonna be the national mammal. There wasn't like an opposition.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. And if there's no opposition, then you must realize that it means nothing.

[A]

Yeah, I take your point.

[B]

It was just a symbolic.

[A]

I take your point.

[B]

It was cool. I was glad.

[A]

But you also, I don't know when this study, I don't think this was repeated recently, but there was a study looking at Montanans and Montanans wanting to see bison in the way that you are describing in this state. And it was well over 60% wanted that. So I do believe that people want to see bison back on the landscape. Even though leading a private effort, we're facing this resistance. It could feel like if a private organization raising private dollars to raise a private herd is facing this resistance. Certainly your dream isn't going to happen immediately, but I hope it would be before 2020, 21, 26 quite a bit more.

[B]

What did I say? Not a lot, but a bit more. Quite a bit more.

[A]

It was really real squishy. Real squishy.

[B]

You've heard About T mobile 5G home Internet, mostly for how easy it is to set up and then the value that you get. Well, there's some more big news you should know about. They now have the fastest 5G home Internet speeds. That's right. T Mobile now has the fastest 5G home Internet, according to the experts at Ookla Speed Test. That makes backing up photos from your latest hunt, streaming a new documentary or pulling up a wild game recipe super quick. And yeah, it's a great value backed by a solid five year price guarantee. And setting it up is still as easy as it gets. You just plug it in and go. So if you want the fastest 5G home Internet with a simple setup at a great price with savings that stick around, Get T Mobile 5G Home Internet. Head over to T mobile.com home Internet to check availability. Price guarantee exclusions like taxes and fees apply. Fastest based on Ookla Speed Test intelligence Data over the second half of 2025. All rights reserved. Hey, as outdoorsmen, we always spend a lot of time thinking about how we interact with the land, how we care for the land. But then yard care, like your lawn care, defaults to chemical, heavy routines. The tree Every yard the same. Well, Sunday offers a different model. They begin by understanding your soil and local climate, then build a customized yard plan designed specifically for your environment. Their products rely on nutrient dense ingredients like seaweed, molasses and iron, rather than harsh synthetic chemicals. Everything arrives at your door and connects to a hose, simplifying what has traditionally been a complicated trial and error process. It's a more targeted, more thoughtful approach to caring for the space just outside your home. Less guesswork, less excess. Fewer unnecessary treatments. If you're curious what your yard actually needs and prefer a smarter way to support it, Sunday makes that process remarkably straightforward. Go to getsunday.com to get your free custom yard analysis. That's getsunday.com spring turkey season is one of the best times to hand the hunt over to your kid. Part of the problem hunting turkeys with kids is a lot of the pre game stuff is all happening in the dark. They can't really visualize what you're talking about, but with Onx Hunt you can show them what you're talking about on your phone and make the whole thing real. Let them learn why their moves work, work, and why they don't. You can show them exactly where you're allowed to hunt. You can decipher direction and judge distance on a gobbler with waypoints and compass mode and build a setup together instead of just telling them what to do. It turns a morning in the woods into a lesson they'll carry the rest of their hunting life. Download the Onx Hunt app and use spring turkey season to make better hunters one spring morning at a time. My view on stuff. My view on things is like, I have this sort of deal where, like, from a professional standpoint. Okay, like, from a professional standpoint, as someone who advocates about the outdoor lifestyle, hunting and fishing, wildlife conservation, my. My sort of professional promise is that, like, I. I look at situations taking place, the political landscape, the conservation world, whatever, and I try to be like, what is in the best interest? What is in the best interest of hunters and anglers and outdoorsmen, okay? And no one's perfect. By trying to strip out and explaining things to people, example, I try to strip out the other considerations that might come in to being. I'll give you a case in point. Talking about an impenetrable border wall between us and Mexico, I would view my professional obligation would be to speak to what it means for wildlife.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

My professional obligation is not to talk about what it would mean for employment, what it would mean for the fruit industry, farming industry, hospitality industry. Employment. Like, right. So I gotta go like, okay, never mind. I gotta forget all my opinions about that. And I got. I need to talk about what it means for wildlife. And impenetrable walls ain't great for wildlife. So I have to then say, to be honest with myself and to be true to my mission, I have to say, like, an impenetrable wall between us and Mexico is going to impair and impede wildlife movements and be kind of. That's bad for hunters, right? But here's another thing. It's also bad for hunters that if we have tons of illegal immigration and you have to have an exaggerated federal state presence on the landscape, dealing with all that, that's an impact on wildlife, Right. So that has to be considered. So you follow? I'm saying it gets complicated. When I look at American Prairie,

[A]

you

[B]

look like you're uncomfortable.

[A]

No, no, no. I'm settling in for this.

[B]

When I look to American prairie, I just want what I want what I wish there would be. And I know you can't do it. I wish there would be that. Like, Written in the charter is like a promise to hunters and anglers that it would be memorialized, that there would be a deal codified. Right. And that then people would look and be like, yeah, I know it's kind of weird what they're doing or whatever, but like they stand by hunters and anglers. Yeah, but you can't, because it's too complicated.

[A]

Well, you're not. So where I thought you were going to go is some sort of, you know, public access easement. And the reason that those are tricky for us is because we don't know what land will ultimately own. And when you put an easement on it, you reduce its value. And we're trying to borrow against our, our existing properties and we don't. We. We could sell something that's on the, you know, if we, if we. Concentration of land ends up over here, we could sell something. So I'm not going. We don't want to hamstring a future management team by, by doing a, an easement at this point. We do have conservation easements on our property. We've inherited conservation easements. We're not anti. Easement. We can work with them. But that, that's sort of the. But if. And what we say is look at our track record, right. Like look at what we've done for the last 20 years of owning land. And it's increased access, it's increased hunting opportunity that will continue. But you're not the first to suggest some sort of contract with Montana or charter and that. I think that goes beyond a communications tool. Right. It reflects a conversation and a commitment. And so it's not a terrible idea.

[B]

No, it's not a terrible idea. I think it's a great idea. Because that's like when I was saying down the road, if you viewed it like. If we started out our conversations, we were talking about parks. Right. They didn't do one of those. Right. But I think that if there was imagined a. If there was imagined a large area, that would be. The aim was to make it a. Increased wildlife, better habitat.

[A]

Right.

[B]

With. With like. With a. Open to regulated hunting activities in accordance with state objectives in perpetuity. I think that, that, that a lot. That some of the tension would trickle away.

[A]

Yeah, I, I hear you. I also though, that's kind of what's happening right now on 600,000 acres. Right.

[B]

No, I understand.

[A]

And it's negative. And I don't know if the tension, Steve, comes as much from that. From. We are seeing more support from hunters and anglers and less doubt and less skepticism and more appreciation. And I think there are a lot of conservation efforts in this state. Some of them are species focused, some of them are regional, but regionally focused. Some of them are private lands focused, working private landowners. I don't think there's anyone. There isn't anyone who is creating the access that we're creating in every single year. Right. The access to our deeded land, the access through our deeded land to public lands. I mean, the response to the. Our purchase of the anchor ranch was astonishing.

[B]

Well, that was. That was. That was an important thing.

[A]

It was. And for those who don't know, we immediately opened a 3.9 mile private road, the gate to a 3.9 mile private road that accessed 50,000 acres. The Bullwhacker Road that opened 50,000 acres of public land that wasn't accessible. I mean, it was accessible for the very hardy, but now it is accessible through this road. And that gate was. Those no trespassing signs were immediately taken down, and that gate was immediately thrown open.

[B]

Remember, we were talking about the Nez Perce War?

[A]

It's right there.

[B]

They crossed in there.

[A]

It's right there. I was standing there this fall with my family.

[B]

Yeah, there's a Ford there. They crossed. There was a bit of Cow Creek. Yeah, there was a bit of a shootout down there, but it wasn't that big of a deal. But they crossed there.

[A]

Yeah. It is tremendous, tremendous country. It is. That whole Cow Creek drainage and the footholds of the bears paw there.

[B]

So,

[A]

again, not a bad idea. But our track record is absolutely.

[B]

That was. In my community, that was celebrated.

[A]

Yes, yes. And, you know, it just happened that we made that announcement right before the Choccherry Festival in Lewistown. We always have a booth at the Chokecherry Festival. Our building on Main street is open. Our Discovery center is open during it, and hundreds of people came by to say thank you. We noticed that. Thank you. So that's what we're doing, and that's what we will continue to do.

[B]

How long will you stick with this, you think?

[A]

I don't know. I'm still having so much fun.

[B]

It is fun. You enjoy it.

[A]

Oh, it's so. Yeah. First of all, it's an amazing team. Right. We've got. But we've got incredibly talented team. I was up with our bison team the week before last, and we have two new team members in that group, both females, which is cool. And I hadn't seen our new handling facility and the new design of the handling facility, and they're World class. They are world class in the way that they're managing those animals, in the way that they're adapting our management to. To take good care of the animals and make sure people are safe, too. So it's an incredible team. We've got an incredible board. We have supporters around the country who believe in this mission, believe in this idea, care about this landscape, care about the wildlife and the human communities. And I get to interact with all of them. So it's challenging, and it's a lot of nights away from home and whether they're up and whether I'm spending them up in north central Montana or around the country. But as long as. As long as the board wants me, I will. I will be here.

[B]

How big is you guys board?

[A]

It's 22.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yep, 22 from all over the country. Handful of Montanans.

[B]

You're gonna bring my suggestions to the board?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

They'll. They'll hear you. They'll hear them.

[B]

Oh, yeah, because they'll be vetting how well you do.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

What do you. What did I not ask you about that? When you get vetted. What did I not ask about that you wish I would have asked you about? You can just answer it.

[A]

We've covered a lot. We have covered a lot. I guess I would just say come visit us and, you know, certainly we have a lot of people hunting out there. That is our number one recreational activity. But wildlife watching is a close second. Our vice president of recreation and access follows all the trends in Montana and scenic drives and camping and wildlife watching and birding and floating the rivers are all. Are all incredible activities to do out there.

[B]

So, you know, I thought was interesting about you guys. You mentioned wildlife viewing. What I thought was interesting about you guys is like, now and then, just for people listening, now and then, grizzlies will kind of come out of the Grizzlies will kind of come out of the Rockies up in the north part of the state, and they'll. And they'll strike out east, you know, out onto the Great Plains. And like, what people lose track of is that historically that was a Great Plains animal, Custer and his chief scout, Bloody Knife. I mean, they killed a grizzly out in South Dakota, right? I mean, grizzlies were. You know, you think of all these big grizzly maulings, like Hugh Glass when he got mauled, and the story that was told in the Revenant, he got mauled out on the plains, like they were a plains animal. When Lewis and Clark ran into Grizzly bears. It was out on the plains.

[A]

Every day in May of 1805, it

[B]

would be like you'd be going down these big valleys. You mentioned choke cherries and stuff like, yeah, you're traveling these big valleys. And you'd read mountain man accounts. They'll run into like nine grizzlies in a day. Out on the big valleys, out on the plains, people would be like, oh well, they got pushed into the mountains. They didn't get pushed into the mountains. Just the ones that were on the plains are gone and there's someone they didn't like migrate to the mountains. That's like a misconception to be that they were there. They remain there. Where they're not is on the plains. But now and then one will strike out and he'll head east. And when that happens, oftentimes people are like, good lord, it's the end of the world. But you guys had a grizzly a number of years ago turn up. But I remember you were like a rare voice to be like, cool. A grizzly. Well, yeah, and amidst a lot of like hand wringing about what it's like the end of civilization as we know it.

[A]

Well, you know, I think, I think other aren't. Some of our neighbors were happy to see that too. But. Yeah, yeah. And it hasn't just been that one. We've, we've spotted a number in, in that area for sure now. Like even a mom and cubs. So.

[B]

No, they're coming.

[A]

Yeah, I know they're coming. They're absolutely coming. And they're coming exactly where we, how we thought they would come. And that's why, you know, one of the things we didn't touch on is the way that American Prairie works with neighboring landowners. And one of those ways I Talked about the 25 families that run 8 to 10,000 head of cattle on our properties. But we also work with private landowners through a program called Wild sky, where we are make payments basically rent for wildlife through a cameras for conservation program. And so if someone sees get a mountain lion on a camera trap, they get a check for that mountain lion, a camera trap. And what we're recognizing is that this wildlife is there in the middle of these working lands and that these landowners are providing that habitat. And we cost share on habitat restoration projects too, including. The reason I brought this up is because we have a range riding program that is right there in the breaks where, where those grizzly bears were. And there haven't been any issues with those, those grizzly bears in the, in the Missouri river breaks.

[B]

That was definitely moved on by now.

[A]

Yeah, there, I mean we, we where our, our visitors were seeing, you know, we're seeing evidence of grizzly bears and that there have been bears in some of the island mountain ranges around there too. But, but yeah, we, it was a day we celebrated in terms of advocating for bear proof dumpsters and educating our visitors about carrying bear spray and immediately putting bear boxes at all of our public facilities out there. Because you know, we don't, we don't want that any conflict of course. And nor do any of our neighbors. So. But yeah, they're moving east.

[B]

And here's why I didn't ask about. You guys are like, you guys are not in on like you don't participate in any kind of predator management program. Like, like you don't, you don't do any predator management on your lands. You sort of like just not comfortable with it. Like what's the sort of, what's the viewpoint on it? You don't view it. You don't. I mean, because I guess because you're not, you're not in the livestock business necessarily. It's not a huge issue for you.

[A]

Yeah. And we, and we want to see everything restored to the landscape.

[B]

Do you view that, that if you look at stuff like, like declining mule deer. Right. Or like protecting bighorn sheep. Do you ever, do you ever weigh that out to be like, what is that? If mule deer, if you're taking steps like you don't want human harvest of mule deer. Right.

[A]

So for both those species, isn't it disease with mule deer?

[B]

No, it's habitat, predation and habitat. So if you were looking like, let's say you were looking at a species of concern. Okay. Would be mule deer, harsh winters, that's an issue. Predation is an issue. Habitat loss is an issue. What if you looked at a thing like mule deer and you thought like as a species of particular concern, we want to like help build and recover mule deer during low points. You would never make the calculation that even if you knew empirically that predation from coyotes on mule deer fawns was having a population level negative impact, you would not participate in predator man. You would not participate in coyote management to bring up mule deer numbers.

[A]

Those are just not conversations that we're having. Yeah, those are just not. Yeah, those are just not the reality out there on that.

[B]

You're not looking at it at that kind of like detailed level.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What else do you want to talk about? Or things that you wish I had asked you about?

[A]

You know I think we've covered a. We've covered a good, good range of topics.

[B]

How best do people go? Find out more about your organization.

[A]

There's great information on our website and where. This year we'll be improving the visit pages so it's clearer. How to rent a facility, how to get a hunting reservation, how to go out and experience the landscape.

[B]

One of our colleagues, he's currently feeding on one right now, and I've been eating some of it, too. Is he. His wife had a permit to hunt a buffalo on. You guys place. Another one of my colleagues, every year he goes with a veteran. He participates in a veteran hunt.

[A]

Yeah. I mentioned that 370bison had been harvested, but I didn't go into the details of how popular that program is. And so every year it was a public application. Yeah, it's a public application. 20 to 30 opportunities every year, and thousands and thousands of people apply. Those opportunities are weighted to Montanans, and they're weighted to the seven counties that we work in. So harder to get one of those if you're. You're. If you're not in the state. But those are immensely popular. The other thing we do.

[B]

But they don't live here in town. But his wife got one.

[A]

Yeah, well, she was really lucky then. Well, Gallatin county wouldn't be weighted, so she was just one of the most.

[B]

Is park county weighted?

[A]

No, no.

[B]

She just got lucky, though.

[A]

Yeah, she just got lucky. And then the other thing we do is we donate harvest to other nonprofits to auction them off. So as an example, the Glasgow Reds baseball team up in Glasgow, along with a rifle that was donated by a local rancher. That opportunity to harvest a bison on American parent went for over 30,000 dol.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. Raising money for that, for that organization.

[B]

Our body that works here that goes with the wounded veterans. I'm not sure what organization he goes with.

[A]

Wounded Warriors, I think. I believe, but could be. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, definitely, definitely put in for that.

[B]

It's an annual late winter thing. They go.

[A]

Yep, yep. There are a couple. There are some organizations that we've partnered with year, year after year like that. But yeah, I mean, if anyone has an organization that they want America for to support, give us a call. And also put in for that drawing every year.

[B]

So people should go check out your website.

[A]

Yeah, website's the best place.

[B]

What is the website?

[A]

Americanprairie.org oh, two eyes and prairie.

[B]

It's easy to find two eyes and prairie. Allison Fox. Thanks for coming on the show, man.

[A]

Yeah, thank you really appreciate you having us back.

[B]

Yeah, no, you. Well, I should. I don't want to say you can come on anytime, but you can come on almost every time.

[A]

Well, thank you. That's very generous of you.

[B]

Yeah. Especially there's new stuff to talk about.

[A]

We didn't talk about your bison tattoo, though.

[B]

No, it's fading out. My fake one.

[A]

I really thought that was why that you got that in my honor.

[B]

Well, the deal. I've talked about this all the time, but the deal is my wife and I, we were gonna provide, like, a service by being the last untattooed American couple.

[A]

Couple. Oh, my husband and I are part of that.

[B]

You're part of the select. The select few American couples.

[A]

And now you're telling me my kids are also not gonna get tattoos?

[B]

I'll get into that in greater detail later. Well, no, I appreciate you being. I mean, you know, coming on and being such a good sport about asking a bunch of questions.

[A]

Yeah, no, happy to. I appreciate. We appreciate the opportunity to tell this story. I guess the other thing I would say is, you know, we. In 2021, we opened our discovery center in Lewistown, and that's really the headquarters of the organization. We've got about 15 staff based there. That facility is open for public events. There's an exhibit hall. There's a children's area. We have a new black footed ferret. We have a. I was going to ask about that. Yeah. So go in and visit it. Go to an event there and meet our team and ask any question you have about American Prairie. That is. We are committed to being open and transparent and available. And it's been amazing to see that, having that physical place where people can go. We called it a Discovery center because it's not quite a visitor center. It's not quite a community center. It's both, and that's why we chose the word discovery. But it's open and go talk to members of our team.

[B]

Do you guys have any black footed ferrets on the ground?

[A]

We don't. We don't. So we don't have the extent of the prairie dog towns are not large enough yet to support black footed ferrets. There are black footed ferrets on Fort Belknap. That's the closest population now, and they have been there for decades.

[B]

God, I would have thought that I would just feel that you have enough prairie dog colonies for black footed ferrets. So they need huge area.

[A]

They need huge areas, thousands of acres, and we're working toward that. We're absolutely working toward that. But. But not we, we don't have them any now.

[B]

So some little football field size town isn't going to do it.

[A]

Nope, nope. You need a towns that are big enough so that some plague out they can, they can go to, to other towns.

[B]

I see what you're saying. Yeah.

[A]

A connected network.

[B]

Yeah. If he's like down in the valley floor hanging out and like I said, like maybe something a couple football fields, but then all of a sudden you realize there's not one left because they got. Because they all died.

[A]

Yeah, they need to kill him. That guy's screwed to other populations. But we do. We have an ambassador ferret at the Discovery center.

[B]

You can point at him and be like someday.

[A]

Yeah, right. No, I mean it's the National Black Footed Ferret center in Fort Collins which has a captive breeding program and some ferrets prove themselves able to survive and be reintroduced to some of the reintroduction sites around the, around the Great Plains. And some do not. And so our little guy Bandit eats two rats a day instead.

[B]

Is that like, is there a permitting problem? Like let's say you just wanted to try it out and cut one loose. Cut a. Not cut one, cut ten of them loose. Right.

[A]

Oh, they're an endangered species.

[B]

No, no, I'm saying like if you're like, no, we're gonna do three males, seven females, we're just gonna like. Is that, can you not do it? Because is it, is that a huge permitting permission issue?

[A]

Yeah, there's.

[B]

Because they're an ESA species.

[A]

Yeah, well. And yes, they're in ESA species. And of course every, you know, America prairie doesn't have the authority to reintroduce any animals. Right, understood. Except for bison. But yes, you would you. Yeah, it would be.

[B]

Is it impossible or is it just hard?

[A]

No, I don't think it's impossible. There, there are reintroduction sites, there are sites in my. There have been sites in Montana, there are sites in South Dakota and Colorado.

[B]

I guess there wouldn't be a reason why they couldn't.

[A]

Yeah, no, I said there are. Yeah, there are private land sites. There's. I believe that there are sites that are, you know, a mix of public and private land.

[B]

So I would wonder about on ferrets if, if you have, if the captive breeding program. This is a whole other conversation with a different guest, but this is what I would ask them. If there's a black. If you were a black footed ferret expert. Yeah, I would say is the captive breeding program so successful that you can roll the dice now and then. Or is a black footed, is an individual black footed ferret of such rarity and value that you can't be risky? Do you follow me?

[A]

I do follow you. I do follow you. And I don't know, it's hundreds of animals in the captive breeding program at least. And so I suspect that they, they,

[B]

they can, they can take a chance.

[A]

They can take a chance.

[B]

But because you know, you don't take a chance with a rhino like a white rhino.

[A]

No, you do not take a chance.

[B]

You don't go, I don't know, turn loose, see what happens. But I wonder if you can like if there's ever enough ferrets where you could just start trying some stuff, you know?

[A]

Yeah, well, there's a concept of kind of like a nursery site where it might be smaller but you're training those ferrets, ferrets to be ferret like in a, in a while, in a wild landscape again.

[B]

So you know, we learned the other day we had a ruffed grouse expert on. And rough grouse are not doing well in a lot of the areas in the southern end of the range. And he was pointing out that unlike the wild turkey, ruffed grouse don't do well with, with spot reintroductions. They have to bleed out.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

They, you, you can't jump ahead. Like, they just don't.

[A]

What kind of distances are we talking?

[B]

I don't know, but he said that like they have very poor success rates leapfrogging. Like they need to, they need to

[A]

bleed from, expand their habits.

[B]

Yeah. They need to be like stable populations in good habitat and they need to spread like that. Putting them in a box and moving them forward and dropping them doesn't work for them. I don't know if it's just that they can't learn the area quickly enough. They make too many mistakes, they're not familiar, they gotta ease into it, they're too vulnerable, whatever. But it doesn't work like that.

[A]

So the conservation efforts are focused on expanding habitat off core habitat, as we

[B]

say, it has to be off core habitat. Habitat and move it that way. Like it doesn't work to jump to leapfrog them. Yeah, but if that was the plan on black footed ferrets, it's gonna be a long road to recovery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you weren't able to establish new

[A]

fledgling populations, there aren't any, there's no

[B]

place, very few places to start from.

[A]

Right, right, Yep. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Well, call me when you get a black footed Ferret on the ground. I'll be curious about that.

[A]

I'm rooting for that fierce little animals.

[B]

No, no, they're cool, man. They're cool. I've never.

[A]

I mean, obviously I. I did opportunity once to spotlight when there was a. There was a site in the Charlie Russell and I got to drive around all night and it was.

[B]

I've seen about. I'd like to see, like one doing his deal, you know?

[A]

Oh, yeah, that green eyeshine in the middle of the night.

[B]

Was that how they eye shine?

[A]

And then you. There's a reader that you put over the hole and you stuff some hay down in there and so you can tell when it's come out. And then you get the reader and they know. They're all chipped, so they know. Yeah, they're doing basically a ferret. They were doing like a ferret census every fall to see and then capturing the new kits and tagging them so

[B]

their eyes show green.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So you're driving around with a spotlight on the top of the car and looking for them out on the prairie dog town all night long.

[B]

Are they spooky?

[A]

Very cool experience. No, I mean, they're.

[B]

They're chill.

[A]

Yeah, no, they're. Yeah, they're. And they're small. Right. They're a couple.

[B]

Couple.

[A]

They're a couple pounds and their prey is a couple pounds.

[B]

So that's cool.

[A]

Amazing to think about. They eat the prairie dog. Only lasts them a couple days. Eat one every three days.

[B]

Well, seems like there's plenty of them out there. But I see what you're saying about needing those huge towns.

[A]

Yeah. Well, let alone all the other species that. The rattlesnakes and the badgers and the burrowing owls and all the other species that depend on those prey, dog towns and all the ungulates that are eating that fresh growth. And they're important part of the ecosystem, even though not everyone loves them.

[B]

Yeah. All right, man. Thanks again.

[A]

Yeah, thank you.

[B]

Appreciate you coming on.

[A]

Absolutely. Thanks for having us.

[B]

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