Ep. 855: Clay's Utah Mountain Lion Hunt | 12 in '26

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast – Ep. 855: Clay's Utah Mountain Lion Hunt | 12 in '26

Date: March 31, 2026
Host: Clay Newcomb (Guest Host; Steven Rinella not present), with Josh “Landbridge” Spillmaker
Theme: An in-depth, behind-the-scenes look at Clay Newcomb’s Utah mountain lion hunt, as part of MeatEater’s new “12 in ‘26” long-form film series. The episode covers the realities of mountain lion hunting with hounds, conservation complexities in Utah’s newly liberalized mountain lion regulations, interplay with mule deer and elk management, and the natural and ethical questions surrounding predator hunting in the West.

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Episode Overview

This episode features Clay Newcomb unpacking his recent Utah mountain lion hunt, covered in MeatEater’s “12 in ‘26” film series. Co-hosted with Josh Spillmaker, the show dives deeply into dry ground lion hunting, the legacies of legendary houndsmen like the Mechams and Ty Evans, the rugged landscapes of Utah, the intricate breeding and maintenance of superior lion dogs, and the ongoing debate around predator management and wildlife conservation in the West. Interspersed throughout are listener questions, behind-the-scenes details, and candid reflections on the ethics and realities of both lion hunting and contemporary wildlife management.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The “12 in ‘26” Film Series – Purpose & Approach

• Long-Form Commitment:
  Clay highlights how "12 in ‘26" commits the MeatEater team to releasing 12 feature-length films in 2026, each offering a deeper, richer narrative than weekly video episodes.
  “This year we’re putting out 12 long-form films. Not episodes, not videos, not clips. Films.” (03:05 – Clay)

• Companion Podcast Strategy:
  The podcast serves as a space to share the stories, and fill in the gaps that film alone can’t capture, helping listeners experience the hunt beyond the screen.
  “You can go on some big expedition and make a 20 minute film and it honestly doesn’t capture the full story as, as if you were just sitting there listening to me talk.” (03:41 – Clay)

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2. Dry Ground Lion Hunting Explained

• Defining “Dry Ground” Hunting:

  • Most lion hunts in the US involve hounds, and most success has historically relied on snow to help hold a scent. Dry ground lion hunting (i.e., without snow) greatly increases the challenge, requiring elite dogs and handlers.
    “In the hound world, the dry ground lion dogs are the Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James...” (08:35 – Clay)

• Rarity and Esteem:

  • Dry ground houndsmen, like the Mecham family, occupy a revered place among sportsmen.
    “And the Mechams are nationally known and respected as incredible dry ground lion hunters. And I’m telling you, they made it look easy.” (10:41 – Clay)

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3. The Hunt: Terrain, Mules, and the Legendary Mecham Dogs

• The Utah Backcountry & Riding:

  • Clay describes the rigors of riding 80+ miles through challenging terrain on sturdy mules, relying on their sure-footedness.
    “Carried Lauren Molton 80 miles. And you know, not like 80 trail miles—80 miles of up and down and elevation gain and skidding down mountains. I mean rough.” (13:20 – Clay)

  • Noteworthy: McLean Mecham’s 25-year-old mule still carrying loads across those miles.

• Hound Breeding and Performance:

  • The Mecham dogs are a product of generations of careful selective breeding, purposely producing medium-weight, athletic hounds with “cold noses” and the drive to stay the course on faint, old lion trails.
    “Three quarters of a century of selective breeding by the Mechams…You’d have to sell your truck to buy one if they were ever for sale.” (14:07 – Clay)

• Dog Management on the Hunt:

  • Dogs are “free cast,” working off-leash and guided by vocal commands and GPS collars—navigating a fine line between autonomy and control.
    “They want them to stay fairly close…so they can go over to where the dog is barking and see if they can physically see a track.” (27:03 – Clay)

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4. Ethics and Reality of Hound Hunting

• Skill and Tradition:

  • Clay pushes back on critics of hound hunting, arguing it’s among the most primitive and demanding hunting techniques, rich with history and skill.
    “I would say that hunting with hounds is actually the most primitive method of hunting … it’s super hard, man.” (16:29 – Clay)

• Reward for Dogs:

  • Even when game is passed on, the reward for the dogs is the chase itself and the “sight” of the lion tree’d, not necessarily the kill.
    “I think the reward for those dogs is just to look at it and see it up in the tree.” (36:16 – Clay)

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5. Conservation Debate: Utah’s Predator Management

• Dramatic Rule Changes:

  • Utah’s newly open rules permit lions to be hunted and trapped year-round with no quotas—no tags even required for non-residents (just a license).
    “In the last year, Utah has opened up mountain lion hunting to the widest gate possible. It’s a year-round season, there’s no quotas, you don’t have to have a tag… Even as a non resident, all I had to do was buy a hunting license.” (41:15 – Clay)

• Controversy & Conservation Voices:

  • Utah’s changes are driven in part by mule deer declines, suggesting lion predation is a limiting factor, but houndsmen and biologists are deeply skeptical.

  • Featured quote from Mike Bodenchuk, carnivore specialist:
    “He doesn't think that this [open season] is sustainable ... he was like, well, I don't think it's sustainable.” (46:04 – Clay)

  • Additional perspectives note that lions are just one piece in a complex puzzle including drought, highways, habitat loss, and other predators like coyotes, which heavily impact mule deer fawns.

• Listener Comments Reflect Broader Concerns:
  “As a Utah hunter, I appreciate you guys bringing awareness to our backwards approach to predator management. Killing lions to help mule deer is like putting water on a grease fire.” (53:43 – Austin Sikich, listener comment)

  • The need for habitat conservation and better regulation of hunting tags is also discussed as more effective interventions than removing predators.

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6. The Hunts: Story Highlights & Reflection

• Success and Rarity:

  • The crew treed three lions in five days—an exceptionally rare accomplishment, especially on dry ground.
    “For us to treat three in five days was—you couldn't have asked for anything better.” (12:18 – Clay)

• Ethical Decision-Making:

  • Clay passed on shooting two sub-adult males and a female, electing to only take a mature tom—emphasizing conservation and “code of the West” ethics.
    “So the only lion that is illegal to take on the current structure is you cannot shoot a female with kittens...But in general, guys are after the males.” (67:54 – Clay)

  • The group’s hunting ethos aligned with not shooting females or young cats, prioritizing future population health.

• Behind the Scenes & Memorable Moments:

  • A lost Osmo camera remains out in the Utah backcountry, a bit of “easter egg” for anyone who may find it (23:40 – Clay).
  • Technical challenges filming in treacherous terrain brings new appreciation for the camera crew's skills and endurance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “In the hound world, the dry ground lion dogs are the Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James of …the hound world.” (08:35 – Clay)
• “When you’re following hounds, you go places that you would have never gone otherwise. You just have to go where they go, right? And so you find yourself in all kind of just places that just are off, literally off the beaten path.” (27:17 – Clay)
• “You load up a pack of hounds and try to go out to Utah by yourself and tree a line. Good luck.” (17:20 – Clay)
• “When you drop off in this little canyon, we’re going to pull up and there’ll be a big bluff, and behind that bluff is a set of pine trees, and that’s where those cats like to mark…he knew exactly—topographic memory of just every detail of the land.” (29:00 – Clay on McLean Mecham)
• “Utah is a trophy elk and mule deer state, big time. They also have about 3,000 mountain lions…So that’s one mountain lion for every hundred deer.” (41:15 – Clay)
• “If there were no lions in Utah, there would be more mule deer. Right? I mean period. Yeah, but so it’s like, it raises the question do we want a Utah with no mountain lions? And I think the answer in 2026 to, to the modern sportsman is no.” (49:22 – Clay)
• “Not everybody in the world gets to do what we do…whatever version of your excursion into the wild, whatever version that is, is awesome, whether you're squirrel hunting or small game hunting or whitetail hunting.” (74:07 – Clay, closing thoughts)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:11] – Opening audio from the hunt and context for the “12 in ‘26” series
• [06:08] – Clay’s detailed preamble on dry ground lion hunting
• [14:07] – Selective breeding and hound characteristics, Mecham dogs legacy
• [16:29] – Refuting critics of hound hunting
• [27:02] – Methods for running hounds and managing the chase
• [30:34] – First lion treed, discussion on rarity and decision to pass on the shot
• [39:35] – Conservation and Utah’s liberalized lion hunting regulations
• [45:03] – The impact of coyotes, climate, and habitat on mule deer populations
• [53:43] – Listener question spotlighting predator management debate (“like putting water on a grease fire”)
• [67:32] – The last lion of the hunt, Waylon the hound’s solo performance
• [69:10] – Reflection on the decision not to shoot the earlier cat
• [73:40] – Clay’s closing thoughts on stewardship of hunting, ethics, and outdoor legacy

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Final Reflection

Clay closes with gratitude for the opportunities to tell these stories and to hunt—emphasizing the ethical, knowledgeable, and responsible stewardship crucial in this cultural moment for American sportsmen. He celebrates all forms of responsible outdoor pursuit, urging listeners to cherish wild places and the traditions of hunting, whether in backyards or remote mountains.

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For those looking to watch the accompanying film or learn more:

• The “12 in ‘26” lion hunt film is available on the MeatEater YouTube channel.
• The companion podcast digs into details and insights not found in the visual narrative.
• Upcoming episodes and films will further explore the ethic, adventure, and natural realities that define the modern sporting life.

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Credits and Acknowledgments

• Hosts: Clay Newcomb, Josh Landbridge Spillmaker
• Guests Referenced: McLean & Hunter Mecham, Ty Evans, Mike Bodenchuk (biologist), Lauren Molton (camera)
• Production: The MeatEater Podcast Network
• Listener Comments from YouTube and Instagram throughout

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Resource Links

• MeatEater YouTube
• MeatEater Store

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Clay]

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[Commentator]

Wow.

[Clay]

What a beautiful animal. Golly. Just to get a few moments to just watch that animal. Few people in the world will ever get to do that. You can be out, you can be out in this country your whole biking, riding the mule, whatever. You might see a mountain lion in a lifetime. You know, they're just. You just don't see them. Only way you're gonna see them and look at them like this right here is with hunting with these dogs, we are a long ways from the truck. Miles and miles in backcountry from the truck. Man, when I see an animal like that, I think about the country it came from. I mean, this is some true backcountry. And that sucker has made a living out here his whole life. What you just heard was a clip from my new film out on The Meat Eater YouTube channel of my lion hunt on mules with some very legendary guys, McLean and Hunter Mecham and Ty Evans. We're going to talk a ton about them. But this was episode two of Meat Eaters 12 and 26 series. So Meat Eater is always putting out videos. Every week we put out videos, but this year we're putting out 12 long form films. Everyone, films. Not episodes, not videos, not clips. Films.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah, Giannis.

[Clay]

Yeah, Giannis. Me and Giannis have this argument going on of are we making episodes? Giannis makes episodes. I make films.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

That's right.

[Clay]

I think Giannis makes films. Giannis is incredible. This is meters 12 and 26 in the 12. 12 meaning 12 months of the year. 26 being the year of 2026. We're producing 12 full length feature Films. This film that we just released to mine is 45 minutes long. Giannis's first film about his baited bear hunt. The first 12 in 26 was a full hour long. And these are presented by our sponsors, our big Time Friends products we use in the woods all the time. Onyx and Moultrie. And this is the companion podcast, the companion show called the 12 and 26 podcast. That's where all this has been going, folks, ever since you started. This is the 12 and 26 podcast, right?

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

That's right.

[Clay]

The companion show to the 12 and 26 film series where we go behind the scenes. You know, I've always been a big fan of long form audio like podcasts because when I started making films, you can go on some big expedition and make a 20 minute film and it really doesn't, it honestly doesn't capture the full story as, as if you were just sitting there listening to me talk.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Sure.

[Clay]

Now if you're just listening to me talking, you're not seeing the lion, you're not seeing the mountains, you're not, you're not in. You're kind of in the moment in a different way.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Doesn't hit all your senses.

[Clay]

Right. But I feel like a film sometimes doesn't capture the full thing. So what we're trying to do is just like fill in all the gaps. So you got the film, you can watch it, you can see the mules, you can see the lions. We treed three lions. But spoiler alert, this is behind the scenes. Yeah, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to, I'm going to spill it all, folks. It's all going to be on the table. On this episode of the 12 and 26 podcast. I'm joined by my dear friend and producer, Josh Landbridge Spillmaker. And if some of you might be, if you're not tuned into bear grease all the time, you might not know that I gave Josh this nickname. I mean like in 2008, long time ago, like probably 20 years ago, I started calling him Landbridge cuz he's got such a good mustache that this is a true story. One day we go to church together. At church I saw Josh and I was inspired to go learn about the bearing land bridge and went and ordered my first book on the Bering Land Bridge. I still got it. Inspired by, inspired by Josh's mustache because it, it like links continents. So Josh Landbridge Spillmaker, who's deep in the weeds on the Beargries podcast with me. So awesome.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Well, Clay, this was this was a fantastic film, man. I'm really excited to kind of get into it, hear your thoughts on this specific hunt, lion hunting in general. And we've got some great questions from me and some great questions from some of our social media outlets, YouTube and Instagram. So we're going to throw it all at you and give you an opportunity to respond. So kind of just getting into it.

[Clay]

Can I, can I do a preamble?

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

You can.

[Clay]

Was whatever you want. Preamble. I just did.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yep.

[Clay]

I just want to. I want to, like, set the wider picture for dry ground lion hunting. So you're going to hear that term used in that. What that means is, is when you're, when you're hunting lions, 99% of lions harvested in this country, 95 to 99, I would say, would be lions that were harvested over dogs. And it's primarily in the West. There are no lion seasons east of the Mississippi or even really east of the Rocky Mountains. And so it's all happening out west. And in the northern part of the mountain lion range, there's snow. And when you are line hunting in the snow with dogs, a human goes out and looks for a track in the snow. So you can drive roads, you could ride your equine animal, you could do whatever. However, you're going to get across the country and cover vast amounts of ground. Half of, half of the hunt is finding a track. But when it's in the snow, you can see the track. You can tell what kind of lion it is. You know, if it's a male, female, typically. And, but most importantly, scent holds better in the snow and is much easier to trail a lion in snow than it is on dry ground. It was described to me one time like this. Imagine a scent particle being essentially like a biologically active particle. And if you put that particle in the refrigerator, it would last longer and

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

not degradate, which, this brings up a point. I was curious about that word, which I don't think is a word.

[Clay]

Degradate.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

Oh, dang.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah. So, folks, English majors, forgive him.

[Clay]

Well, made up word degradate's a word.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Degrade.

[Clay]

It's just pronunciation. Tomato, tomato. So the scent particle, if you were to take it and put it into the refrigerator, that makes sense.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

I never thought about that, but it totally makes sense.

[Clay]

And, and so lion hunting in the snow is easier. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's easier. And it takes a dog that doesn't have to have as good a nose. You get into the arid Southwest like In Utah, New Mexico, Arizona. You used to could run hounds in California. Can't anymore. They're having to start these lions on dry ground.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

And in the hound world and people. Turn it up if you're. If you're what? Turn up the volume on your device right now so you can hear this. In the hound world, the dry ground lion dogs are the Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James of, of. Of the hound world. There, I said it. I said it. Okay. It takes a lot higher skill set to tree line on dry ground than it does to Tracun.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

I can just see the comments that are going.

[Clay]

It's going to hurt, but it's just, it's just. No, there's every. Every animal and dog used in hunting has to have a specific set of skill sets that make it wonderful and unique. But from my estimation, for whatever that's worth and the estimation of many really great people in the hound world, for a dry ground lion dog, he's got to have an almost otherworldly nose.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay?

[Clay]

And for instance, in coon hunting, you don't necessarily want one with a super cold nose because there's coons everywhere. You don't want him to start a track that's 12 hours old. You want him to go find a hot one.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

And that's all in his ability to smell and his desire. You got to have a lion dog that has an extremely cold nose. These dogs have got to be superb athletes. I mean, I'm telling you, McLain Mecham's dogs were running. I mean, we were putting 12 to 20 miles a day on the mules.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

We were following the dogs, not step for step, but I mean, those dogs had well over 100, probably 150 miles.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

You're going to. You're going to have to pump the brakes on this preamble a little bit.

[Clay]

Come on.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Getting into the content that we're going to talk about, people got lots of questions.

[Clay]

Well, I hadn't even started the preamble yet. All that to say dry ground line hunting. And the men and women that are dry ground line hunters often are held in high esteem in, in, in the very small circles.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

And the Mechums are nationally known and respected as incredible dry ground lion hunters. And I'm telling you, they made it look easy.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Really?

[Clay]

Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

To go out in five, it's amazing. Don't try to stop me, Josh. To go out in five days and tree three.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Well, that actually kind of, kind of leads me into one of our first questions. Here is you Know you say it's rare to. At first you say it's rare to tree two lions in three days.

[Clay]

Right, right, right.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

What when you're getting into it, before you went, what was your expectation? Did you have an expectation like could I go five days and us not tree lion or what did you think

[Clay]

was going to happen? I mean I had a lot of confidence in the mechams and we were coming at a good time. Was it was a good time to come. We had optimal conditions, we had some snow, it was really cold. But is it possible to go out there for five days and not tree a line even with some of the best? Absolutely. I mean I know, I know multiple people. Last night a guy texted me and said, I've been on two guided lion hunts, like paid money to go on guided lion hunts, like week long hunts and never saw a line. Wow. And like presumably two five day hunts. I know another guy, I won't say his name. A dear friend of mine has been on two guided line hunts with very reputable outfitters and has never killed a lot. I think they probably treat a female or something.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Wow.

[Clay]

And so yeah, for us to treat three in five days was. You couldn't have asked for anything better.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay. Okay. We've got some kind of, we've got some footage of, of kind of just of the terrain of where you were hunting in Utah. Have you hunted in this region before?

[Clay]

Never have. This is my first time to Utah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So did you have an expectation of what the riding and the and would be like before you got there?

[Clay]

You know, yeah, it was, it was probably longer than I thought it was going to be. Like we rode over 80 miles per our onx that we were tracking.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

That's a lot of miles on. And you rode the same mule, didn't you?

[Clay]

I rode the same mule.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

That's unbelievable. That's unbelievable to me.

[Clay]

One of the mules. So our cameraman, one of our cameramen was on a mule. Lauren, Lauren Molton. And on the fifth day and he, I mean this mule's riding right behind me. I mean it's gone 80 miles. I asked Mlan, how old is that mule? And he said 25 years old.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Wow.

[Clay]

Carried Lauren Molton 80, 80 miles. And you know, not like 80 trail miles.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

Telling you 80 miles of up and down and elevation gain and skidding down mountains. I mean rough.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Unbelievable.

[Clay]

But it actually to me in some ways is, I don't want to say easier, but when you ride long distance in the eastern deciduous forest, you're constantly fighting Brush and getting scratched up.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

I wondered was. Was what happened to your nose?

[Clay]

I got banged by a cedar tree.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

But most of the time, we're just, like, out in the wide open.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

Most of the time.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Well, the scenery was, I mean, spectacular, so. Well, that's.

[Clay]

That's great.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

We're gonna. We're gonna watch another clip here of

[Clay]

three quarters of a century of selective breeding by the Mechams. And you'd have to sell your truck to buy one if they were ever for sale. Line dogs require a unique skill set of hunt, drive, physical stamina, one which borders on something supernatural. And an incredible nose topped with desire to tree game. I already covered that. Not just to run it.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So you kind of got into it. Was there anything you wanted to add to the. You know, people would look at these dogs and just think, you know, they're. Some of them are mixed breed, but they've just. They've bred these genetics into them to do what they're supposed to do. So you talked about cold nose, you talked about them being able just to trail and to have the drive and the athleticism. Anything else that would set apart a lion dog, a dry ground lion dog, versus, like a coon dog or a deer dog?

[Clay]

Well, when you look at, like, some of the bigger hounds in the east and there's some big dry ground dogs, but typically, like, McLean's dogs were probably 50. Probably 45 to 65 pounds.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

And I mean, some of these bigger coon dog breeds are bigger than that. And a bigger dog typically breaks down a little faster. Just like, doesn't have, like, the stamina. Their feet break down. And so when you're going that many miles day after day, you got to have a dog with really good feet. And that won't go lame on you, you know, way back out there.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Sure.

[Clay]

And that comes after just selective breeding, you know, litter after litter and breeding the good ones to the good ones, you know, and eventually you get this. This dog that is kind of dialed itself in a way, you know, I mean, when these. These guys hunt so much, they really do. I mean, they. They hunt so much, and they just really. Their dogs express the potential that they have and.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

But. Okay.

[Clay]

I think the dogs are endlessly fascinating.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Another question. How would you respond to critics of hunting with hounds that would say it's easy or there's no hunting taking place?

[Clay]

Right. Man, I would say, honestly, anybody that would say that has never. Maybe they've gone on a hound hunt, but they've never owned hounds or done it themselves. And I would, I would say that hunting with hounds is actually the most primitive method of hunting. Like if you take out a scope with a rifle on it and go sit in a deer stand and then you say that someone is not hunting when they're hunting with hounds. I mean you kind of live. You know, there's a dichotomy, there's some. This isn't going to work for you. Oh. Um, but I, I'm a big proponent of hound hunting and it's a traditional use practice that goes back to the very beginning of the human story. And so this is a, this is a modified version of that. I mean it's like, obviously we're not subsistence hunting, but it's, it's super hard, man.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

I mean you load up a pack of hounds and try to go out to Utah by yourself and tree a line. Good luck. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's very difficult. And then the beauty of it from a conservation perspective is you get to, you get to be selective on the animals that you harvest, which was pretty much the theme of our, of our,

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

of our show for sure. Okay, let's, we got another clip here

[Clay]

to the African tracker's ability to follow planes game. Hyper focus on obscure details for decades produces unique Twitter while following the dogs step for step. And there's a reason these western lion hunters typically use mules. They're more sure footed, safer and last longer in rough country than horses typically.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

There's a, it's a few clips altogether.

[Clay]

Temperatures are hovering in the single digits and we're going into a completely new canyon.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Oh, not supposed to hear the audio on this anyway. We'll just watch it. The dogs make so that, that, that spot there, Ty. When Ty's mule slips on the rock, that was, that could have been pretty hairy right there.

[Clay]

You know, Ty Evans heartbeat would not have skipped a beat.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Really?

[Clay]

Yeah, he didn't, he wouldn't have even. And he knew that everything was okay because of that mule.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

I mean that, that's, that's when you want to have an animal that's very sure footed and that's when where the mules thrive. And I mean obviously that mule slipped and fell, but it recovered. Didn't tumble down the mountain.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Sure. Would you say this is probably some of the roughest riding you've done?

[Clay]

You know, I have done. There was one section on day one that was super steep and the camera just didn't pick it up.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

There were a couple of spots though where you, you could get a Little bit of an idea of how steep it. I mean, it scared me, you know, having been on a mule a little bit. It scared me looking at it.

[Clay]

Well, the first. The first two hours we rode, the dogs just went over this mountain and bailed off and. And it was. I mean, I. It's hard. I don't even know how to describe how steep it was. I would say 95% of people riding an equine animal would have walked the mule down. Right. And. And we knew we could have.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

But I was there with ty Evans and McLean Mecham and I was like,

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

hey, let's just ride that scene where I don't know if it was McLean or if it was Tyler, where they're coming down. And you mentioned the britching that was steep. I mean, that was really steep. And you mentioned the britching that you use the britching on mules and that's the strap that goes around the hindquarters of the mule. Would you ever use a britching on a horse?

[Clay]

I typically don't. I wasn't able. This is a prime example, people, of where a film just doesn't give you the time to tell the whole story. So the reason that you only see britching on mules is because a mule's front shoulders are narrow and so the saddle has a tendency to slide forward because the mule doesn't have very strong withers, which withers is an anatomical term for basically the front shoulders and like the hump on the neck of a horse or mule. So a horse has big, strong, broad front shoulders. They do. A horse is more typically has more muscle. Right. Than a mule and they have a lot of it up front. They have big, big hind quarters, sinks in then big front shoulders. A mule has big, nice hind quarters and narrower front shoulders. The saddle slides forward. You need a Brit in to keep your saddle from sliding forward, right? Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Are these mules shoed? Do they.

[Clay]

Yes. These mules were shot and had had ice. I was unfamiliar with it because we don't have that here, but they had like ice cleats.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Oh, really?

[Clay]

Yes. They told me when I was originally going to bring Izzy. So Izzy is. Is my nine, nine year old mule that, that you would see on the logo of the Beargrace podcast. So that's the mule that I trained and still have. When I told originally we were gonna go out there and take our meals, me and Justin House, my friend Justin House from Arkansas, we're gonna drive out there and there was actually an equine disease that was Going around the rodeo world at that time and interstate travel of equine animals was in jeopardy. Like, it's possible we could have got out there and if it had escalated.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

We might have, like, had to left our mules there or something. So we decided to fly and to ride his meals. But when we were going to take mine, he was.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Which ended up being a good decision.

[Clay]

I think it was.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

When we got there, or he said, when. When you and Izzy get here, we'll put these basically snowshoes on her.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

Like, they were that serious. They were like, you need these. And, man, when. In some of that stuff. I was very glad to have a grippy.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

A grippy shoe on those.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

Mules.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right. We had a comment on. On YouTube by Brooke Anderson. 1423 said. This is the most unique camera work I've ever seen on a hunting show. Really makes you feel like you're riding along with them. I'd love to see more hunts on horseback filmed like this. And I just want to give a quick shout out to the camera guys.

[Clay]

Yeah. Drew Stecklein and Lauren Moulton.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah, they. They not only filmed, but they were, you know, they weren't just riding, but they were also filming.

[Clay]

So they were there the whole time.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Know what?

[Clay]

A lot of those. A lot of that riding stuff was done with those OSMO cameras.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

These little gimbal. Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

You're letting people see behind the curtain.

[Clay]

Little. Little. Little gimbal cameras.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah. Pretty slick. Pretty slick. Well, shout out to those guys.

[Clay]

Hey, not to. I won't say which one, but behind this is behind the scenes, right?

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Behind the scenes.

[Clay]

This is, like, unplugged Y, right?

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yep. This like a backstage.

[Clay]

So one of our cameras got lost. OSMO cameras got lost underneath that lion tree. The first lion tree.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Oh, really?

[Clay]

Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So if you recognize that tree, if

[Clay]

you find it out there in the Utah back country, let us know.

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[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

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[Clay]

We went down some steep stuff that might have deterred us if we didn't have to follow the dogs that bailed off the edge. Dogs often force your hand to go places you wouldn't choose the strap around the back of the meals.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Oh, I guess that's it. So kind of help us understand. You kind of, you kind of described the, the qualities of a good dry ground lion dog. But when you're running dogs, what are you trying to do? Are you trying to maintain a certain distance from them? What, what's, what's that process? And, and you use the term a dog race. What does that mean?

[Clay]

So these guys are free cast and hounds, which means they don't always know where the track is. If, if you. Well, let me back up. Free casting hounds just means you just turn the dogs out and have that.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

They're just looking for a scent.

[Clay]

They're not on a leash. They're just out hunting. Right. And so we free cast dogs and they have a ton of control over these dogs. And I mentioned in the film, you can, you know, they kind of hunt them like bird dogs.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

They want them to stay fairly close. But then, because when they, the dogs start running a track, they want to be able to go over to where the dog is barking and see if they can physically see a track.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

So they don't want A dog to go three miles in there without them and start a track that they can't immediately go and check out, because these dogs will run bobcats and mountain lions, and they don't. A dog is not gonna distinguish between, let's say, a female with kittens and a big tom. I mean, they'll run either one just the same. And so if it was a female with kittens, they would immediately pull the dogs off. And they. And they do that through just training, I mean, vocal commands, but they can also tone the dog, which is not shocking it, but just beeping it and getting the attention of the dog. And they can. They can call him back from long distance. I want to say something about that little clip. Talked about how when you're following hounds, you go places that you would have never gone otherwise. And that is. Is a cool part of hound hunting, because if you were just going on a pleasure ride through all those canyons that we went through, I mean, you would pretty much take the easiest route or maybe a route that went by some aesthetic point or something. Man, when you're following the dogs, you just have to go where they go, right? And so you find yourself in all kind of just places that just are off, literally off the beaten path. And that's what I've always liked about hound hunting is, you know, you just get a tour of the world. And that kind of goes as well to what I was so impressed with. We would be so far from the truck, Josh.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

And McLean would be like, man, when we drop off in this little canyon, we're going to pull up and there'll be a big bluff, and behind that bluff is a set of pine trees, and that's where those cats like to mark, the male cats like to scratch. And we're gonna go there. And I mean, we've been. We're like seven miles from the truck, right? And. And he would just have this. And he knew exactly topographic memory of just every detail of the land that. I mean, you just wouldn't. You just wouldn't be able to have that detailed of a map in your head without a lifetime. And McLean's in his 50s and. But also being on the back of a mule or horse, like, you just. You can just cover so much ground. But they also. Elk hunting, mule deer hunt in these regions, and that's. I think that's an interesting place we ought to go probably sooner rather than later is what the film dealt with so much, which was lion conservation.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

We've got that coming, and we've got A lot of comments about that, but we're almost there.

[Clay]

Well, they, they, they mule deer hunt, elk hunt this. I mean they just know it. Every possible way in and out.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right? Yeah. At be spoke to said this was much harder before GPS dog collars.

[Clay]

He's correct. Yep.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay, we're kind of, we're getting to the lion here.

[Clay]

Well, we got a lion, man. They started it way the heck over in that other canyon. And we can see it right up in the tree just glowing up there. At his head.

[Commentator]

And then about 4 inches under the

[Clay]

base of his tail will be a black dot if it's a tom. So we'll get up here and get a look at him.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So you got that first lion. How many days in was that?

[Clay]

That was the second day.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay. What's it like to be standing that close to a full grown mountain lion?

[Clay]

Well, I noted it of just, just how rare it really is. Like, I mean if you're, if you're a lion hunter, it's not because you, you see them, right? You have the dogs. But really in a natural situation without dogs just in a, you would, it'd be very rare to be that close to a line without it disappearing. I mean, lions are notorious for being unseen. And then in a lot of the GPS college studies they've done, they, they see how close these lions let humans get to them. And the lions never, you know, reveal their presence.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

Like, so a lot of people out west that live in lion country that are doing a lot of backcountry stuff have probably been within 20 to 50 yards of many lions that they never knew about. Right. Which is interesting. Right. But no, this line, when I first, I knew we weren't gonna, gonna shoot a small line. Okay. Right. When we really hadn't talked about exactly what was acceptable, you know, I mean, I didn't know what kind of lion. We just knew we needed a male for sure.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

And in an adult, you know, a full grown one. And man, when I walked up to the tree, I was like, dang, that's a pretty good mountain line. I mean it had a pretty big head and. But I could, I could just immediately tell. Well, I mean they told me they're like, yeah, that's like a two year old lion, you know, And I.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Did you think it was older than that?

[Clay]

I would have thought it was older than that, but I, I have no right basis.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Because you've, you've lion hunted before. You took a lion.

[Clay]

Yeah, this is, this lion weighed 112 pounds.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

It was A man that was where? In, in the panhandle of Idaho.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

Leon Brown. Guy named Leon Brown. Plot man. And I mean that's technically an adult. I mean like it wasn't like still with its mother, but.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

This was probably a two year old line, okay. 100, 112 pounds.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

Which is, you know, you're, you're, you're hoping to take out the big ones and the biggest lions in North America. And these would be like phantoms but would, you know, push 200 pounds. I mean there have been 200 pound lines taken. But a big tom in Utah I would say would be in the 150 pound range, plus or minus. I mean like that would have been.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

And that's what they're, that's what they're looking for.

[Clay]

That's what they're looking for. But then again, these guys, like I said, Hunter has never killed one. I mean they're just.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Did he say why? Did he say why? I mean they're just, he's seen a mature cat.

[Clay]

I mean, well, number one there they are outfitters, right? Like, so they do take people that they're trying to get a line. So presumably a lot of the big ones, they've, they've, they've treed, they had a client with them, you know, so they would have shot the line. But I, I get it. Like, it's just not, that's just not what they're in it for, right? Like just to, to shoot a line just doesn't mean that much to them. They'd rather let it go and treat again or, or someone, someone else.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right?

[Clay]

Take it.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

And so I, I thought, I thought that was interesting and that, that made me feel good when I passed that line because it was hard. I would have been so happy with that line. I, I think it was probably bigger. You know, Mlan said it was between 110 and £120 and I feel like it looked quite a bit bigger than.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Oh really?

[Clay]

Than this one.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

I do this, this hunt is on the Bee YouTube channel.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

My lion hunt from like 2016 or something. Probably 10 years ago, I went up to the panhandle of Idaho. I killed that one with a traditional bow with Leon Brown.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So we have another, Another comment from YouTube, I believe. S3V3ND3 Lots of threes and that username. How does passing on a kill affect the dogs? How do you reward them and also disengage them from a successful hunt? When you don't understand the harvest of an animal, when you don't harvest animal.

[Clay]

Right. You know what? I think it's. That's a good question. Because it would seem like those dogs.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

I like how he says successful hunt, too. I mean, the dogs did their job.

[Clay]

Right. Right. Well, I think the reward for those dogs is just to look at it.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

And see it up in the tree.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Were you able to get them pulled off and. And get them disengaged from that line to move on?

[Clay]

Oh, yeah. They. They just call them. I mean, they lead. They would lead some of the younger dogs away. Some of the older dogs, they'd just be like, let's go on to the next one.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

And now I hope that we're soon getting to line manager.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

We've got one more clip. We've got one more clip with a short question, and then we're getting into line, man.

[Clay]

Because I have some insider information.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

I love insider information.

[Clay]

Okay, next clip.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

We have.

[Clay]

We've ridden six or seven miles from the truck, and, man, they've got that cat treed. You can see him through binos down there. Thought he might be baiting one of these rocks. We got one of the guys going to him.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

Going to try to figure out how to get down there. Looks like a tom just from the track, but just unbelievable country. When you come to Utah. This is where you'd hope to tree one. Already don't like it. Pretty sketchy getting down here, but we're gonna try to look this line over. We don't. We think it's probably the same caliber of line as yesterday, but we really don't know one we're gonna try to take or not.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So you. You mentioned how steep it is and that you don't like it. Where'd that come from?

[Clay]

Well, you know, Justin House was there. Hunter. Hunter Mecham was there. Dustin from Arizona was there. There were. There were multiple people there that went down with us. And it was not that big of a deal. Like, there was parts where we had slide right. And there were. There was always handholds. But I was. I just. I was trying to just be vulnerable and honest. It just kind of fluttered my heart. Like one of those flutters that you can't control.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

And. And I was just like, what is going on? Like, this is not even that bad. It was bad like, like Ty. Ty Evans had cowboy boots on that day, and he chose not to go down because he had, like, slick cowboy boots. And. And the consequences of falling were. Were high. I mean, like.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

It was. It was just almost straight down in Several spots and snow. And no, it, I had, I had, I had my buddy Justin carry my gun tell. I was kind of wigged out. I was like, sorry.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Well, you had a pretty harrowing situation with your mountain. Yeah. Mountain gun.

[Clay]

Yeah. Well, that's what I, that's what I, Well, I, I know is, is part of it is. Yeah. We were, Me and Dirt Myth were hanging on the side of the cliff for two hours.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

Retrieving that goat.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay. The moment you've been waiting for.

[Clay]

Okay.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

We're gonna talk about conservation.

[Clay]

These cats are, I mean they're carnivores, 100% living off meat. And they, they follow these elk herds and what's kind of interesting being here in Utah is that they really liberalize the lion hunting. And I mean they, you can trap them, you can snare them year round season. Don't need a tag, just need a license. And you'd think that the line hunters would be happy about that, but they're, they're not. You know, they feel like they should be managed a little more conservatively. But the game of fish has done it because the mule deer populations are down. They're trying to save some mule deer. So, you know, there's probably like two sides of it. But when you're with line hunters, they're the ones who are, you know, wanting to be more conservative but taking a

[Commentator]

beating, you know, and we, Everything needs to be regulated, you know, every species. But just open it wide open for one specie is not going to change our mule deer. There's so many other factors. There's highways, there's drought, there's habitat loss, there's so many other things. And I think as humans we play torn apart and hurting the mule deer population than these lions are. You take an area like this where there's quite a lot of elk. So they take, they eat elk also.

[Clay]

Yeah.

[Commentator]

They eat coyotes, they eat bobcats, they eat skunks, porcupines. Yeah, all kinds of things. But it's amazing how many people I take out in the hills and the first thing they see some bones, it's automatically a lion kill. So, you know, so they're getting them.

[Clay]

The theme of the film really was lion conservation. And in the last year, Utah has opened up mountain lion hunting to the widest gate possible. It's a year round season, there's no quotas, you don't have to have a tag, you don't have to buy a tag to hunt one. Even as a non resident, all I had to do was buy a non Resident hunting license. And it was legal for me to harvest a mountain lion. Now after you killed it, you did have, you do have to check it and they pull a tooth and they, they, they, they gather biological data. Right. But basically this is, this is my understanding of it, which is, is, is not the full picture, but there was a time when there were probably 500,000 mule deer in Utah. Okay. Like in the glory days, which that would have been, you know, I don't know, 50s, 60, 70s. At some point in time, there were 500,000 mule deer in Utah. With whatever is happening ecologically, management wise today, as I understand it, they have roughly around 300,000 mule deer. Okay, wow. And it's been that way for a long time. Well, Utah is a trophy elk and mule deer state big time. They also have about 3,000 mountain lions in 2007, 20 years ago. And it's. The guy I talked to believed it was probably similar to that today. 3,000 mountain lions. So that's one mountain lion for every hundred deer. Okay. And lions undoubtedly are eating deer. And when I talked to Chuck. Oh boy, let me, I'm not even going to say his name. He's a great guy. He's helped, he's worked estate agencies, knows a lot about lines. Basically, the lions typically are after the mule deer more than the elk. And they don't just prey upon the mule deer in uniformity. They trend heavier towards males.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Oh, really?

[Clay]

Yeah, because males are solitary, more solitary, they're traveling more, they're just more vulnerable. So they're definitely eating does and fawns, but they, there would be a higher percentage of the males that they eat. And so that actually there's a biological term for it, but that it sounds bad for a sportsman to think of a, of a lion killing a big trophy mule deer, but from a population level, it's actually less consequential than if that lion killed a doe. Because if the lion kills a doe, you're not only killing that doe, but you're killing her reproduction potential for the rest of her life. And so basically when they introduced elk, the first lion studies in Utah were back in the 1960s. And, and all the, the lions like exclusively ate mule deer. And it was because there were hardly any elk there. They introduced elk and they, they started taking primarily juvenile, juvenile elk. Okay, but this is the most interesting thing that he said is that what you really, if you're thinking about mule deer populations, what you really have to be focused on is the amount of, of mule deer fawns getting killed okay. And he said what kills a bunch of mule deer fawns is coyotes.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Huh.

[Clay]

And so he said, he said it was. It's a. It's very complicated, but basically it's the. He believed Chuck. I gotta find Chuck's name.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Hold on here. It's Chuck Bodenkirk. Bowden. Chuck. Mike Bowden. Chuck.

[Clay]

Mike. I was calling him Chuck.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah. Mike Bodenchuk.

[Clay]

Mike Bodenchuk. He's. Sorry, Mike. He's a consultant. Has worked with state game agencies, with carnivore management for his entire career. Like, super knowledgeable guy. And I'm not quoting directly, I just had a conversation with, with, with Mike today. But basically it feels like there's a lot of pressure coming from the sportsmen of Utah to hammer down on the lions. And, and basically Mike Bodenchug, and I'm not going to quote him, you can ask him yourself, but he doesn't think that this, he thinks that this is unsustainable what Utah's doing.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Really.

[Clay]

He, he. I actually thought he was calling me to tell me I got it wrong because he somehow we got hooked up with him and he watched the film, right? It's this expert. And I actually thought he was going to say, clay, you painted this in the wrong light. This is actually good. And he was like, he was like, well, he said, I don't think it's sustainable. And what he. The only positive thing that he did say about this new rule, the new regulations, is that it does just open up a lot of sportsman opportunity. And the state agencies aren't going to be killing problem lions. A sportsman could actually go kill a problem lion. So they do have livestock depredation in Utah. Sheep, cattle stuff gets killed less than it has been in a long time. But in the past, if you had a sheep get killed by a lion, you would call the state agency and they would send out a government hunter to come kill that line today with 365 day a year season, you could call your buddy that's got line dogs any day of the year and go trail a lion and kill it. And you know, he said, you know, that's positive for sportsmen, right?

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So the total reported harvest of mountain lions in Utah from November 2023 to 24 is 530.

[Clay]

530 lines. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's. It doesn't. I mean, in some really simplistic way, you would just go, well, a lion on the, that line that I passed on the second day, he's killing probably a deer A week. So that's 52 deer a year. And you're like, remove that lion, you have plus 52 deer. Well, I think what McLean and what others are saying is that mule deer populations, even thriving mule deer populations, they have natural systems built for some level of mortality. And there's a whole lot more mortality coming from human induced stuff and, and stuff beyond our control. Droughts that are producing degraded habitat and, and just increased people in the state hitting deer on roads, hunters taking deer. There's just a lot of little points and basically the lions are one data point that are taken, taken right. Deer off the landscape. And to just smash in that button is to, to, to the people that I've talked to that are in the know think that that's not really helping.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

We've got a, a comment here from Joe Pruitt. 6063. I'm sure that the Game Commission knows that lions aren't the only factor, but they're most likely the easiest factor to control.

[Clay]

That's probably a fair statement.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

And it, and it's, and the other thing is that, you know, how many very serious lion hunters are there in the state of Utah? I don't know. A couple hundred maybe.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

Thousand. How many serious mule deer and elk hunters are there in the state of Utah? A lot. Hundreds of thousands. And so it's one of these things where it may not be best practice, but it's, it's, it just seems like the easy thing. And honestly, it's a philosophical question too. If there were no lions in Utah, there would be more mule deer. Right? I mean period. Yeah, but so it's like, it raises the question do we want a Utah with no mountain lions? And I think the answer in 2026 to, to the modern sportsman is no. We want wild landscapes with intact trophic structure inside of. I mean we want some predators on the landscape. Our ability to manage those predators is essential. Take that away from us and we're in bad trouble and we're going to fight to the, to, to, to the bare dirt to, to, to get it back. But in, in, in. And there's places where they've done that in California they've completely just like taken the legs out of predator management. And it's, it's wild over there. What's going on?

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

And just to, just to be clear, the only way to actively hunt mountain lion would be with dogs.

[Clay]

Well, In, in, in open landscapes like in Utah. And now there will be a lot of just happenstance hunting. Like if you're Elk hunting with a rifle and you see a line over there, 300 yards stalking across the ridge, you can shoot it legally.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

And so there is going to be quite a bit of harvest that's going to come from just kind of by accident. There's a term I'm looking for. What's the term? Secondly, there's a lot of trapping going on in Utah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

A lot, a lot of guys are trapping mountain lions.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

And so in the past, pretty much the, the, the only way you would have done it would have been with dogs. But now everybody that's got a tag and a weapon in their hand could shoot a line. And I mean, I would if I was out there elk hunting and saw a big mountain lion walking across the ridge.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yep.

[Clay]

Oh, I, I mean that's, that's pretty cool.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

But so what it, what it. Mike Bowden, Chuck, he watched the film and he said, Clay, your experience there in Utah was exactly what I would have predicted. He said the top end of the, of male mountain lions is, is gone out of Utah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Like because of the open season.

[Clay]

Yeah. Or will be gone.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

Because year round, no quota. So in the past they would have had the, the state separated into quota, quota zones for lions. So like maybe where the, and I don't know this, but perhaps like where the Mechams were hunting, there would have been a 30 lion quota with a, with a female quota too. So like maybe you could kill 30 lines, but if you killed 15 females, it shut off. Right. But you could kill 30 males. Right. So they, they regulated it pretty tightly. And so this is essentially going to take that top end because guys are going to go there, run dogs and the big ones they're going to get because you can hunt them 365 days a year.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Oh really?

[Clay]

Oh yeah, you can hunt them every day. Wow.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Wow, that's a big deal.

[Clay]

Yeah. And, and so he said us seeing juveniles like this or, or sub adults, he said was pretty typical. And, and honestly the McLean and them and hunter, you know, just kind of said, Clay, probably a lot of line hunters in Utah would have shot those two cat, those two males. Like they're just looking for, you know, a grown male. So

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

a couple other comments. Austin Sikich says, as a Utah hunter, I appreciate you guys bringing awareness to our backwards approach to predator management. Killing lions to help mule dealers, like putting water on a grease fire. We need to prioritize water and habitat, not killing lions. I thought that was a good comment.

[Clay]

Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

We had another comment that talks about wild Horses even.

[Clay]

Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

He says the mule deer in Utah have a lot of competition for feed and water as well. Elk, pronghorn, and tons of wild horses. I've watched a group of wild horses run a herd of deer off of a water hole, and a couple years ago, those horses just hung out, guarding that water like they owned it. DNR will remove every lion from the state, but leave the horses alone.

[Clay]

Seems really off to me, guys bringing the heat.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So anyway, it's definitely. It's definitely a controversial topic.

[Clay]

Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

But I think the. The film kind of shed some light on some good practices.

[Clay]

So I've got a quote. Mike. Mike told me this quote, and this wasn't from him. He was quoting somebody else, a biologist that he once knew. He said, in the absence of wolves, he said, the way to save elk is to reduce the amount of lead in the air. Basically, this biologist was saying, hey, well, in the absence of wolves, he said, the way that you manage basically, deer and elk populations is by how many get killed by human hunters.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Well, we had another comment. Andrew Ferris, 2205, said, Limit the mule deer tags. Easiest way to control.

[Clay]

And they have done that to the point that you can hardly hunt mule deer in the summer.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

I mean, yeah, like, anybody that. That knows the draw system or has played in the draw system knows that Utah is one of the hardest states to draw. It's also some of the best mule deer hunting in the country. So everybody wants to go there. But even residents don't get tags every year. In. In good zones, typically the residents get priority. Like in some of the premium western states. Let's take, for instance, Montana. If you're a Montana resident, every year you get a general Montana elk license, which means that every year you can hunt elk. You may not be able to go to the premium zone. Right. But there's a lot of general elk zones. Okay. And I mean, in Arkansas, can you imagine if we couldn't hunt deer and turkey every year?

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

Like, if, like once every five years we got to deer hunt. I mean, that sounds like there'd be a civil war. Yeah. And so in Utah. And it's other places, too. New Mexico and Arizona and other. Other states. But there are plenty of places out west where even the residents have to draw a tag to be able to hunt and may not even get a tag to hunt.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

South Dakota's like that.

[Clay]

Yeah. South. It's like, well, not hunting this year. Didn't get a tag. I mean, to. To those of. Those of us in the east hunting deer and Turkeys and bear. That just sounds.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

That is a. A God given right.

[Clay]

It just sounds unbelievable, but it's the reality out there. And so they are regulating the tags.

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[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay, let's watch another cl. So that was a tom also.

[Clay]

Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

It was not quite as big as the other one. Or was it similar size?

[Clay]

It was similar sized. It didn't look as big. It didn't look quite as big. But it was a. It was a male inside of that same range. So when you're dealing with cervids like elk or deer, you. You have these rut windows that produce very specific fawning times. And so all the juveniles of a given year, a cohort, are basically the same age. Okay. Right. With lions, it's not like that. Like, you know, it's not like they breed in this window and they have kittens in the spring. It's not like a bear.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So there's a lot of speculation when you see.

[Clay]

Yeah, so you might be looking at, you might treat two lions that were born four months apart or five months apart, when typically in other species that have these really regulated breeding windows, you would be looking at animals that would be a cohort of a year. Right. Like bears. Like, you'd be like that's a two year old bear, a three year old bear, four year old bear. Does that make sense?

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Absolutely.

[Clay]

Yeah. Yeah. Because the breeding with the cats, as I understand it, they can basically breed any time of the year.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

Just when that female comes in. I actually learned that an adult female lion is basically constantly pregnant or with kittens her entire life once she reaches sexual maturity.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Wow.

[Clay]

She's either pregnant or nursing or rearing

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

kittens now, do you know? Well, they typically have a litter of kittens. I mean, will they have multiples?

[Clay]

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I'm not a line expert. You know who was Teddy Roosevelt? Be nice to put him up. He was, he was the premier lion, mountain lion guy in America in the early 1900s.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

We'll see if Steve or Nala has his phone number.

[Clay]

Yeah, no, but I'm, they have like two kittens.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

And then obviously could have three or four. Sure could have one, but typically two kind of, kind of like bears.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay, let's look at this last clip here.

[Clay]

Oh yeah, this dog right here, his name's Waylon. All these dogs went the wrong way. This dog stayed with him, was over here for several hours, had this little female on her ledge and he was the reason we got this cat, this guy right here.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So that was obviously a female, Is there a term for a female cat?

[Clay]

Yeah, and I don't think we can use it on this podcast.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay, got it, got it.

[Clay]

Wait, never mind.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

So you said that dog stayed treed for hours?

[Clay]

Yes, that I, this is again where video just doesn't really allow you to tell the whole story. We started that day on the track of a Magnum Tom, like one that we didn't think we were going to find.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

And they were running it and I mean McLean was like, hey, this, this might happen. And we were going into good country. Every time that you're there with them, they're, the dogs are going a direction. They're like, well boy, if they get over into there, it's going to be tough. Or, or man, if they go that way, we're in the chips. And so last day, find a big track, dogs are running it. And I go, well, well tell me about the direction. And I think they're gonna say, oh Clay, it's gonna be really tough for them to catch that line going that way. And they go, this is great, this is fantastic. They're going the right way. And it's like mid morning, so we got plenty of time. A lot of times you just run out of daylight, right? You just you just trail it, trail it, trail it, trail it. And it gets dark and your dogs are still running. You got to call them off. And so it's, it's mid morning. We're running a big lion track. Bigger than the ones like they were like, you'll, you'll shoot this one clay. You know, I mean that was the idea. And as we're going, we're, we're like seeing the lions tracks and the dogs

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

and you can tell it's big because of a big track just. And the distance between the steps, right?

[Clay]

Yes, yes. They, they can just glance at a track and like tell you the, you know, what that dude had for breakfast. You know, I mean, it's unbelievable. And so as we're going, it was like fate and we couldn't show it in the film. It just, it just was too hard to capture. A female crossed that lions, the big lions track.

[Commentator]

Oh.

[Clay]

And, and the dogs turned and I think actually might have gone backwards on the female.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

Even the best dogs in the world. But Waylon broke off and just drifted into no man's land. And so we actually follow the dogs. And McClain immediately smelled a rat. He was like, something's wrong. He's like, they're not doing it right. And then he sees the female track and sees they went the wrong way. And we spent a bunch of time going down to him and Dustin from Arizona was with us. Dustin Clark. And he looks at his Garmin and he says, mclean, Waylon is like two miles away showing treed. And we were, we thought maybe it was an error on the gps who just the likelihood of this dog tree in a line by himself. And I was like, was it a good dog? And Dustin's like, man, it's one of my best. I was like, really? Like, do you think it's treat? And he said, he was like, who knows? I think he wanted to, right? Yeah, it's true. He was being, he was being reasonable and like, hard to say, well, the dog is so far away that it, we almost didn't go to it. I mean that's what it felt like. But we finally get the dogs gathered back up from kind of going the wrong way on this track. And I remember it was late in the afternoon and we could have, it would have been way easier to just go back to the truck. And McLean said, what do you want to do? And I was like, well, I want to go see what that dog's got. Right. I want to keep going. And he said, okay. And so we head off and Go on a multi mile, very treacherous, you know, like up this canyon and across and down and back up. And the dog's still treed. And we think it's possible that it's got that big male treat. It's possible, yeah, that's what I thought. Anyway, these guys were looking at their Garmins and I think they kind of had it figured out what had happened. They just, it's like they're playing chess and I'm just kind of like watching the game board. Don't really know exactly what's going on. And when we got to about a hundred and two hundred yards from the tree, we could hear the dogs. By this time all the other dogs went to join whelen that English Red. And so that, you know, all the dogs are going and we know they've got a lion treed. And McLean is like, I think it's that female. And so we get down there and sure enough and when you look at her in the tree, you can see how slender she is. I mean she actually has a, a feminine kind of face, you know, I mean just like the, the lines on more petite, less smaller head, smaller feet. She was very nervous. Those males would just sit up in the tree and just kind of.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah, they seem on the Tom seemed unfazed.

[Clay]

They were just, they were just sitting up there, just. They didn't care. That female was just constantly on edge, just kind of acting like she. And she ended up jumping.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

You know.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Did the dogs chase her when she.

[Clay]

Yeah, we, we tried to catch most of the dogs back, you know, but they, they actually. Yeah, they, they actually chased her and treat her just like 100 yards away. And then we gathered up all the dogs and took out of there.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

And you said, you know, this animal's legal to take, but we're not gonna.

[Clay]

Yep.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

And I think you, I think you've covered it well enough. But just, just to be clear, you wouldn't take a female because.

[Clay]

So the only lion that is illegal to take on the current structure is you cannot shoot a female with kittens.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

And typically a female is going to tree with her kittens.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Okay.

[Clay]

If she's got kittens. That's the way I understand it. And in lion hunters in general are not going to shoot a female. I mean they're just. It's kind of the code of the

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

west because like you said, the reproductive potential of that cat.

[Clay]

Right. And in most places there's the quotas, the female quotas. And there has been so, I mean these, these regulations create Culture inside of states. And so there's been female quotas all over the place. So for generations, it's been not okay to shoot a female. Or, you know, you kind of get. I mean, people do because the female quotas get met.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

But it's like, don't shoot a female. I mean, the guys that are serious pretty much are saying that there will be exceptions. I mean, maybe you're with a kid or maybe you have some reason to want to take an old female. And I. I don't. That could happen and be legit. But in general, guys are after the males.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Sure. Okay, last question. So looking back, you decided to pass that first cat.

[Clay]

Yes.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

If you had to do it again, would you change your mind?

[Clay]

Well, no, I would do it just the same. But would I have liked to have taken that cat? Yeah. If. If I had. If I wasn't with these guys that were so knowledgeable and I respected so much and had such strong opinions on the deal, I mean, I could see a scenario where I was with different people that would have just been like, shoot that one, man. That's the best one we're gonna get. This is awesome. I mean, I think to a lot of people, to a lot of lion hunters, that would have been like, what you ex. The best of what you expected. Right. You understand? I mean, so. So. But again, you're. You're a product of the context that you're in. And I was these people's guest, and they told me, hunter. Yeah. What's not on film is that Hunter and McLean both were like, clay, take that. Shoot that cat.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Oh, really?

[Clay]

They were like, do. Do what you want.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

I mean. And yeah. I mean, they were. They were like, yeah, if you want to shoot that cat, you can. Right. I mean, this legal. Like, they know what's happening, and I think they knew that the chances of us treeing a bigger one were slim. Slim.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

And so. But I could tell they. They. They didn't. I mean, I don't. I don't want to put the blame on them. I made the decision.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Sure.

[Clay]

Because, I mean, they told McLean, told me. He was like, you do whatever you want. But I was like, kind of taking

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

your cues from him.

[Clay]

100.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah.

[Clay]

Which I would. I think, you know, somebody new to hunting or. I mean, that's what you do, you know, I mean, when you're with people, you know, I guess other parts of life are like this, but in the hunting world, I feel like there's this hierarchy of knowledge kind of on any hunt and there's usually somebody that's the de facto leader just based upon their experience, the respect they have with the group. And, I mean, I kind of typically would kind of hat tip to the. To the leader.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Right.

[Clay]

You know, well, they've got a long

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

history and legacy in that region for what they do.

[Clay]

Yeah.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Well, great. That's all the questions I've got, man,

[Clay]

I thank you guys so much for watching Meat Eaters 12 and 26. We've got 10 more films coming out this year. Two of them will be with me and Bear John and the rest of the team. I mean, Brent's got some. Giannis has more. There's a bunch of really great films that are coming out. And there was a little bit of a snafu on the release of this one. For the first five hours that this. That this line film was out, we actually had the wrong version of the film up on YouTube, so we. We replaced it late on the first night. It's kind of a bummer that happened. But the current film that's up is the. Is the one to watch. If you watched it in the first five hours, you would have seen a film with no narration. And, I mean, I watched part of it, so did you. I mean, it kind of made sense. Yeah, it was just kind of odd, long musical pauses.

[Josh Landbridge Spillmaker]

Yeah, you kind of filled in the blanks with your emotions.

[Clay]

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I had a couple people be like. They're like, man, that was awesome. And I was like, maybe I shouldn't talk. But, no, it means. It means the world to us that everybody watches what we do. I mean, we never take that for granted. And. And. And just what. I mean, every time I relive some of these moments, I mean, I'm just grateful to be an American sportsman, and I want to be responsible. I want to be knowledgeable, I want to be ethical. I want to steward this opportunity that we have in modern times to be the caretakers of wildlife and wild places and the culture of American hunting, which is deeply, deeply part of our national identity, which we just have to foster in the coming days. Because, you know, I think. I think hunting and being actively engaged in wild. In. In wild places is. It's good for society. It's good. You know, Teddy Roosevelt believed, you know, his strenuous life doctrine. He believed that to go and test yourself in the wilds was essential to the national character. You know, and I think there's part of that that's probably true. Not everybody in the world gets to do what we do, and whether it's going turkey hunting in your backyard or going on a lion hunt in Utah or an elk hunt, whatever version of your excursion into the wild, whatever version that is, is awesome, whether you're squirrel hunting or small game hunting or whitetail hunting. And I'll never. We get to do some cool stuff and I realize we're kind of anomalies in a way, kind of propped up by. I mean, this is my job, right, working for Meat Eater. So I realize I get to see a lot of cool things, but my favorite things in the world to do are right here within 30 minute drive of my house. And that's the truth. So thank you so much for watching this 12 and 26 podcast, the companion series to Meat Eaters 12 and 26 Films.

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[Clay]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.