Transcript

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Summary

The MeatEater Podcast – Ep. 859: Man-Eating Lions, The Border Wall, and Judas Deer

Release Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Steven Rinella
Notable Guests/Co-hosts: Randall Williams, Corinne, Brody, Doug, Phil, Brian Harmon

Episode Overview

This episode of The MeatEater Podcast is packed with lively discussion on critical issues in conservation, wildlife management, and outdoor culture, including:

The artistry and history of the man-eating lions of Tsavo
Controversies and practical implications of the U.S.–Mexico border wall for wildlife
Wildlife management quirks like "Judas deer" on Catalina Island
The science—and politics—behind proposed changes to deer baiting regulations in Michigan
Updates on mountain lions in Alaska
A featured interview with pro golfer and avid hunter, Brian Harmon
Listener corrections and quirky news stories from the outdoors world

With its trademark blend of humor, irreverence, and depth, the episode challenges the listener to think critically about how humans interact with the land and wildlife, while showcasing the surprising, sometimes bizarre, ways conservation issues intersect with daily life and politics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching and Collaring Bobcats in Arizona

[03:12–11:34]

Steven tells a story about helping his friend Mercer—a renowned bobcat trapper—assist with a state project tracking bobcats in Arizona.
- Mercer designed a double-door cage trap, useful for catching savvy cats who've already been trapped and educated.
- Key to success: natural-looking sets, homemade stinky lures (including “rotten rattlesnake juice”), and patience.
- Quick response is mandated for animal welfare: “When that signal goes, you go. They don’t want any risk of harm.” – Steven, [10:54]
The conversation veers into the ethics and quirks of bobcat trapping, with anecdotes about being accidentally sprayed with “signature blend” lure.

2. The Man-Eaters of Tsavo, Art & Restraint

[11:35–16:24]

Steven shares his fascination with John Banovich's painting of the Tsavo man-eating lions, notorious for killing over 100 people during the construction of a railway in Africa.
- Discussion of historical accuracy, the Ghost and the Darkness film, and what makes great wildlife art.
- On restraint in art:
  
  “Here’s why that painting is good. If I knew how to paint and I was painting that, I’d have a whole pile of dead guys...the artistry is in the restraint.” – Steven Rinella, [14:33]
- A David Foster Wallace quote on the difference between showing and implying violence/artistry.

3. Wildlife Research, Fundraisers, and Big Game Genetics

[17:09–20:31]

Randall plugs the Monteith Shop (University of Wyoming), an applied wildlife science research group focusing on big game migration, prenatal nutrition, and their influence on antler growth.
Discussion about how nutrition and in-utero conditions—rather than genetics alone—drive “big buck” potential.

4. “Sharing the Land” – New Non-profit for Access Seekers

[21:22–23:07]

Doug Dern’s new organization "Sharing the Land" pairs landowners with access seekers (e.g., hunters, fishermen) in exchange for conservation work rather than cash.
- The first board meeting just took place; more details to come.

5. News Corrections & Listener Engagement

[26:20–43:14]

A humorous and spirited segment where the team responds to listener corrections.
Noteworthy correction topics:
- “Hardest fisherman in college sports”: Debate about whether a college basketball player who fishes can trump actual competitive bass anglers.
  
  “I don’t think time on the water is the only measure of how hard someone fishes. I think about how they commit to it within the broader responsibilities of their lives.” – Randall Williams, [34:29]
- Atacama Desert vs. McMurdo Dry Valleys: Clarification on the driest place on earth ([36:41])
- Death Valley ancient lake depth: Correction by a Pleistocene geologist about exaggerated lake depth claims ([39:27])

6. Volunteered Stories, Listener Letters & Etiquette

[44:11–53:12]

Seal Finger: Fun follow-up from a listener whose dad’s infamous “seal finger” injury made it into the news, complete with family anecdotes and Newfoundland sayings.
“Lost arrow etiquette” at a public archery range: Is it finders keepers? The team explores both the ethical and practical sides of retrieving and redistributing lost arrows.

7. Border Wall Controversy—Impacts on Wildlife

[54:21–67:09]

Deep dive into the environmental implications of the proposed physical barrier between the U.S. and Mexico, especially concerning Big Bend National Park.
- The team focuses on wildlife movement:
  
  “We talk about the wall in terms of wildlife movements… and whether you think we should build a mile high, hundred yard thick wall from the Gulf to the Pacific, that’s great, but… you have to hold in your head that that would have implications for wildlife.” – Steven Rinella, [58:10]
- Stats: Big Bend sector sees only 6 crossings per day versus 50,000 per month in El Paso sector ([65:04])
- Many local ranchers, outfitters, and guides oppose the wall, seeing it as unnecessary and detrimental to wildlife connectivity.

8. Interview: PGA Pro and Hunter Brian Harmon

[67:09–74:21]

Fun and insightful interview with Brian Harmon, 2023 Open champ:
- Talks freezer status post-turkey season, love for bowhunting, and split allegiance between hunting ducks or deer.
- On golf/hunting balance:
  
  “If I can kill some turkeys before [the Masters], it tends to work out a whole lot better. My mind doesn’t wander nearly as much.” – Brian Harmon, [71:00]
- Harmon humorously confirms he hears fans gobbling at tournaments and commits to serving his own wild-killed meat at the Champions Dinner if he wins Augusta.

9. Catalina Island Mule Deer Eradication and “Judas Deer”

[78:48–91:24]

Updates on the controversial effort to eradicate non-native deer from Catalina Island; mixed emotions and critique of past (alleged) mismanagement by the Conservancy.
Introduction of "White Buffalo"—a non-profit wildlife culling contractor—and the “Judas deer” technique, where a tagged deer is used to locate holdouts.
- Debate about the ethics and effectiveness of using outside sharpshooters versus allowing hunters greater access.
- Discussion on whether it’s “wasteful” to leave the carcasses:
  
  “If you just shoot a deer and let it lay, in the grand scheme of things, does it go to waste because you or I don’t consume it? It’s like nutrient recycling.” – Steven Rinella, [91:24]
- Plan for condor feeding and concerns about using non-lead ammunition.

10. Michigan Moves Towards Legalizing Deer Baiting

[92:33–101:36]

Debate over proposed legislation to re-legalize deer baiting in Michigan.
- Proponents argue for increased hunter recruitment/retention and ease of harvest—especially for does.
- Critics (including several on the show and DNR staff) highlight the increased risk of disease transmission (cwd, bTB) and undermine sound wildlife management practices.
- Steven reflects on his own past:
  
  “I wish I knew then what I know now...I would have hunted totally differently.” – Steve, [94:24]
- Connection to the Catalina story: Eradication contractors use bait as a primary tool (“get a bait pipe”).

11. Forest Service Restructuring Controversy

[105:14–117:55]

Randall provides an in-depth analysis of the recent federal announcement to move the Forest Service HQ from D.C. to Utah, close regional offices in favor of a state-based model, and consolidate most research operations into Colorado.
- Widespread public and internal opposition; concerns about loss of institutional knowledge, efficiency, and the true intent (“to cripple, hamstring them” – Steve, [112:58])
- Echoes of past agency disruptions (e.g., BLM move to Grand Junction) and their unintended consequences.

12. Alaska’s Historic (and Puzzling) Mountain Lion Season

[118:38–127:48]

Brody reports on Alaska opening a mountain lion hunting/trapping season despite an extremely small, male-dominated, non-native population.
- Policy is intended to get “ahead” of an emerging predator to protect black-tailed deer and other wildlife, possibly in response to changing climates and migration from B.C.
- On wildlife management philosophy:
  
  “I have as much respect for the integrity and aim of Alaska Department of Fish and Game as I do for any state agency… I trust your opinion.” – Steve, [125:42]

Memorable Quotes

“The artistry is in the restraint.”
– Steven Rinella (on Banovich’s lion painting) [14:38]

“When that signal goes, you go. They don’t want any risk of harm.”
– Steve Rinella (on rapid response for trapped bobcats) [10:54]

“I don’t think time on the water is the only measure of how hard someone fishes. I think about how they commit to it within the broader responsibilities of their lives.”
– Randall Williams [34:29]

“If you just shoot a deer and let it lay, in the grand scheme of things, does it go to waste because you or I don’t consume it? It’s like nutrient recycling.”
– Steve Rinella [91:24]

“If I can kill some turkeys before [the Masters], it tends to work out a whole lot better. My mind doesn’t wander nearly as much...”
– Brian Harmon [71:00]

Timestamps for Important Segments

[03:12–11:34] – Bobcat Collar Project: Trapping stories, lure recipes, animal welfare
[11:35–16:24] – Man-eating lions: Art, restraint, “the foot”
[17:09–20:31] – Monteith Shop, wildlife genetics, event plug
[21:22–23:07] – “Sharing the Land” new non-profit, board meeting news
[26:20–43:14] – Corrections: Fishing hardest, Atacama Desert, Death Valley lake depth
[44:11–53:12] – Seal finger followup; archery lost arrow etiquette
[54:21–67:09] – Border wall wildlife impacts debate
[67:09–74:21] – INTERVIEW: Brian Harmon, freezer talk, hunting/golf balance
[78:48–91:24] – Catalina Island deer removal, White Buffalo, Judas deer
[92:33–101:36] – Michigan deer baiting bill controversy
[105:14–117:55] – Forest Service restructuring: move to Utah, research consolidation
[118:38–127:48] – Alaska’s new mountain lion season explained

Episode Style & Tone

This episode is true to MeatEater’s style: conversational, expert but accessible, frequently humorous, and not afraid to mix in irreverent asides or moments of self-deprecation. Challenging topics—like wildlife policy, guns, and conservation politics—are handled candidly but with a focus on practical impact and ethical nuance.

For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

Whether you’re a hunter, conservationist, or just curious about how complex, quirky, and connected the outdoor world is, this episode delivers a rich mix of science, history, opinion, and good old campfire storytelling.

It’s a must-listen for anyone concerned about the future of wildlife management, the politics of conservation, or who wants to understand the real-world impacts of policy on the animals—and people—that share North America’s wildest spaces.