Ep. 859: Man-Eating Lions, The Border Wall, and Judas Deer

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast – Ep. 859: Man-Eating Lions, The Border Wall, and Judas Deer

Release Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Steven Rinella
Notable Guests/Co-hosts: Randall Williams, Corinne, Brody, Doug, Phil, Brian Harmon

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Episode Overview

This episode of The MeatEater Podcast is packed with lively discussion on critical issues in conservation, wildlife management, and outdoor culture, including:

• The artistry and history of the man-eating lions of Tsavo
• Controversies and practical implications of the U.S.–Mexico border wall for wildlife
• Wildlife management quirks like "Judas deer" on Catalina Island
• The science—and politics—behind proposed changes to deer baiting regulations in Michigan
• Updates on mountain lions in Alaska
• A featured interview with pro golfer and avid hunter, Brian Harmon
• Listener corrections and quirky news stories from the outdoors world

With its trademark blend of humor, irreverence, and depth, the episode challenges the listener to think critically about how humans interact with the land and wildlife, while showcasing the surprising, sometimes bizarre, ways conservation issues intersect with daily life and politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching and Collaring Bobcats in Arizona

[03:12–11:34]

• Steven tells a story about helping his friend Mercer—a renowned bobcat trapper—assist with a state project tracking bobcats in Arizona.
  • Mercer designed a double-door cage trap, useful for catching savvy cats who've already been trapped and educated.
  • Key to success: natural-looking sets, homemade stinky lures (including “rotten rattlesnake juice”), and patience.
  • Quick response is mandated for animal welfare: “When that signal goes, you go. They don’t want any risk of harm.” – Steven, [10:54]
• The conversation veers into the ethics and quirks of bobcat trapping, with anecdotes about being accidentally sprayed with “signature blend” lure.

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2. The Man-Eaters of Tsavo, Art & Restraint

[11:35–16:24]

• Steven shares his fascination with John Banovich's painting of the Tsavo man-eating lions, notorious for killing over 100 people during the construction of a railway in Africa.
  • Discussion of historical accuracy, the Ghost and the Darkness film, and what makes great wildlife art.
  • On restraint in art:

    “Here’s why that painting is good. If I knew how to paint and I was painting that, I’d have a whole pile of dead guys...the artistry is in the restraint.” – Steven Rinella, [14:33]

  • A David Foster Wallace quote on the difference between showing and implying violence/artistry.

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3. Wildlife Research, Fundraisers, and Big Game Genetics

[17:09–20:31]

• Randall plugs the Monteith Shop (University of Wyoming), an applied wildlife science research group focusing on big game migration, prenatal nutrition, and their influence on antler growth.
• Discussion about how nutrition and in-utero conditions—rather than genetics alone—drive “big buck” potential.

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4. “Sharing the Land” – New Non-profit for Access Seekers

[21:22–23:07]

• Doug Dern’s new organization "Sharing the Land" pairs landowners with access seekers (e.g., hunters, fishermen) in exchange for conservation work rather than cash.
  • The first board meeting just took place; more details to come.

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5. News Corrections & Listener Engagement

[26:20–43:14]

• A humorous and spirited segment where the team responds to listener corrections.
• Noteworthy correction topics:
  • “Hardest fisherman in college sports”: Debate about whether a college basketball player who fishes can trump actual competitive bass anglers.

    “I don’t think time on the water is the only measure of how hard someone fishes. I think about how they commit to it within the broader responsibilities of their lives.” – Randall Williams, [34:29]

  • Atacama Desert vs. McMurdo Dry Valleys: Clarification on the driest place on earth ([36:41])
  • Death Valley ancient lake depth: Correction by a Pleistocene geologist about exaggerated lake depth claims ([39:27])

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6. Volunteered Stories, Listener Letters & Etiquette

[44:11–53:12]

• Seal Finger: Fun follow-up from a listener whose dad’s infamous “seal finger” injury made it into the news, complete with family anecdotes and Newfoundland sayings.
• “Lost arrow etiquette” at a public archery range: Is it finders keepers? The team explores both the ethical and practical sides of retrieving and redistributing lost arrows.

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7. Border Wall Controversy—Impacts on Wildlife

[54:21–67:09]

• Deep dive into the environmental implications of the proposed physical barrier between the U.S. and Mexico, especially concerning Big Bend National Park.
  • The team focuses on wildlife movement:

    “We talk about the wall in terms of wildlife movements… and whether you think we should build a mile high, hundred yard thick wall from the Gulf to the Pacific, that’s great, but… you have to hold in your head that that would have implications for wildlife.” – Steven Rinella, [58:10]

  • Stats: Big Bend sector sees only 6 crossings per day versus 50,000 per month in El Paso sector ([65:04])
  • Many local ranchers, outfitters, and guides oppose the wall, seeing it as unnecessary and detrimental to wildlife connectivity.

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8. Interview: PGA Pro and Hunter Brian Harmon

[67:09–74:21]

• Fun and insightful interview with Brian Harmon, 2023 Open champ:
  • Talks freezer status post-turkey season, love for bowhunting, and split allegiance between hunting ducks or deer.
  • On golf/hunting balance:

    “If I can kill some turkeys before [the Masters], it tends to work out a whole lot better. My mind doesn’t wander nearly as much.” – Brian Harmon, [71:00]

  • Harmon humorously confirms he hears fans gobbling at tournaments and commits to serving his own wild-killed meat at the Champions Dinner if he wins Augusta.

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9. Catalina Island Mule Deer Eradication and “Judas Deer”

[78:48–91:24]

• Updates on the controversial effort to eradicate non-native deer from Catalina Island; mixed emotions and critique of past (alleged) mismanagement by the Conservancy.
• Introduction of "White Buffalo"—a non-profit wildlife culling contractor—and the “Judas deer” technique, where a tagged deer is used to locate holdouts.
  • Debate about the ethics and effectiveness of using outside sharpshooters versus allowing hunters greater access.
  • Discussion on whether it’s “wasteful” to leave the carcasses:

    “If you just shoot a deer and let it lay, in the grand scheme of things, does it go to waste because you or I don’t consume it? It’s like nutrient recycling.” – Steven Rinella, [91:24]

  • Plan for condor feeding and concerns about using non-lead ammunition.

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10. Michigan Moves Towards Legalizing Deer Baiting

[92:33–101:36]

• Debate over proposed legislation to re-legalize deer baiting in Michigan.
  • Proponents argue for increased hunter recruitment/retention and ease of harvest—especially for does.
  • Critics (including several on the show and DNR staff) highlight the increased risk of disease transmission (cwd, bTB) and undermine sound wildlife management practices.
  • Steven reflects on his own past:

    “I wish I knew then what I know now...I would have hunted totally differently.” – Steve, [94:24]

  • Connection to the Catalina story: Eradication contractors use bait as a primary tool (“get a bait pipe”).

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11. Forest Service Restructuring Controversy

[105:14–117:55]

• Randall provides an in-depth analysis of the recent federal announcement to move the Forest Service HQ from D.C. to Utah, close regional offices in favor of a state-based model, and consolidate most research operations into Colorado.
  • Widespread public and internal opposition; concerns about loss of institutional knowledge, efficiency, and the true intent (“to cripple, hamstring them” – Steve, [112:58])
  • Echoes of past agency disruptions (e.g., BLM move to Grand Junction) and their unintended consequences.

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12. Alaska’s Historic (and Puzzling) Mountain Lion Season

[118:38–127:48]

• Brody reports on Alaska opening a mountain lion hunting/trapping season despite an extremely small, male-dominated, non-native population.
  • Policy is intended to get “ahead” of an emerging predator to protect black-tailed deer and other wildlife, possibly in response to changing climates and migration from B.C.
  • On wildlife management philosophy:

    “I have as much respect for the integrity and aim of Alaska Department of Fish and Game as I do for any state agency… I trust your opinion.” – Steve, [125:42]

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Memorable Quotes

“The artistry is in the restraint.”
– Steven Rinella (on Banovich’s lion painting) [14:38]

“When that signal goes, you go. They don’t want any risk of harm.”
– Steve Rinella (on rapid response for trapped bobcats) [10:54]

“I don’t think time on the water is the only measure of how hard someone fishes. I think about how they commit to it within the broader responsibilities of their lives.”
– Randall Williams [34:29]

“If you just shoot a deer and let it lay, in the grand scheme of things, does it go to waste because you or I don’t consume it? It’s like nutrient recycling.”
– Steve Rinella [91:24]

“If I can kill some turkeys before [the Masters], it tends to work out a whole lot better. My mind doesn’t wander nearly as much...”
– Brian Harmon [71:00]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:12–11:34] – Bobcat Collar Project: Trapping stories, lure recipes, animal welfare
• [11:35–16:24] – Man-eating lions: Art, restraint, “the foot”
• [17:09–20:31] – Monteith Shop, wildlife genetics, event plug
• [21:22–23:07] – “Sharing the Land” new non-profit, board meeting news
• [26:20–43:14] – Corrections: Fishing hardest, Atacama Desert, Death Valley lake depth
• [44:11–53:12] – Seal finger followup; archery lost arrow etiquette
• [54:21–67:09] – Border wall wildlife impacts debate
• [67:09–74:21] – INTERVIEW: Brian Harmon, freezer talk, hunting/golf balance
• [78:48–91:24] – Catalina Island deer removal, White Buffalo, Judas deer
• [92:33–101:36] – Michigan deer baiting bill controversy
• [105:14–117:55] – Forest Service restructuring: move to Utah, research consolidation
• [118:38–127:48] – Alaska’s new mountain lion season explained

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Episode Style & Tone

This episode is true to MeatEater’s style: conversational, expert but accessible, frequently humorous, and not afraid to mix in irreverent asides or moments of self-deprecation. Challenging topics—like wildlife policy, guns, and conservation politics—are handled candidly but with a focus on practical impact and ethical nuance.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

Whether you’re a hunter, conservationist, or just curious about how complex, quirky, and connected the outdoor world is, this episode delivers a rich mix of science, history, opinion, and good old campfire storytelling.

It’s a must-listen for anyone concerned about the future of wildlife management, the politics of conservation, or who wants to understand the real-world impacts of policy on the animals—and people—that share North America’s wildest spaces.

Transcript

[Steve Rinella]

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[Steve Rinella]

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[Corinne]

It's too much power.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, he's going with that one. Check this out. This is just. This is a couple of days ago.

[Doug]

What do we see?

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, I'll tell you what. Funny you ask. So I was down with my friend Mercer, long in northern Arizona, and Mercer was a lifelong bobcat trapper. He used to be a bobcat foot trapper in the Mojave desert. When California banned foot trapping, Mercer invented his own cage trap, and he started a cage trap business and became a bobcat cage trapper. Then California banned cage trapping. So now he takes his business elsewhere. But he became so skilled at capturing bobcats that he is the go to guy when you want to do a bobcat collaring project. So when researchers want to put a tracking collar on a bobcat, that's your man. That's how you're going to catch him. He's got good stories. That's not an easy thing to do. And so his expert, his expertise is for hire to come in. So he's done working on a program here. They got here. What we're doing is I packed that cage trap. I say packed. We're not too terribly far from the truck.

[Corinne]

Oh, I couldn't even tell it was on your back. I thought you're just standing in front of it. Looks like it's up on that.

[Steve Rinella]

No, it's not. It's on a backpack mount.

[Corinne]

I see.

[Steve Rinella]

This is on Saturday, No. Yeah, Saturday. So that's on a backpack frame. And if you look, you'll see I'm going to explain this. You see how there's a little white thing off of. On looker's left of my head.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

There's a little white box. All right. So they have all these cats on collars. They cannot. They. They will not share those waypoints. So he works on the project, but he does not have access to the waypoints. Okay. Because, you know, think about like, a guy could be tempted. Is this a project like, you know, let's just say for instance, that bobcats are going for a couple thousand bucks a pop. A guy might be like, yeah, I'd like to know where all those cats are with those collars.

[Brody]

Is this a project for Arizona Fish and Gamer?

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, the state, state project. So he doesn't get. He does not. He cannot log on and get access to the points. But they had a cat that's collar fell off. They want to get. How's this go? Yeah, the cat's collar fell off. They want to get a particular cat back on collar. So they shared with him some old points. They're like, here's a couple honey holes that this cat likes. So we hiked up to one of these honey holes that the cat likes and that little contraption, we, we went out and checked one of these. So that little contraption, when that door springs, that sends a signal.

[Brody]

I had a question. And it hits his phone before you catch it.

[Steve Rinella]

And once it hits his phone, the race is on.

[Brody]

What's he, is he baiting? Is he putting up like compact discs? They're flashing.

[Steve Rinella]

You want to know what that you. So you're saying you want to know what that set is? Yeah, I'll tell you about that set.

[Brody]

How's he set him?

[Steve Rinella]

That's a, he makes that trap. That's a double door. So this cat has already been in single door cage traps. She's all done with traps. She don't like no kind of traps. No more is the feeling Mercer's getting. You can only ask cat so many times to go through this. So that door is double door. So it's open door. So when we went up under that, right up under that, that juniper behind me there, we went up in there and basically up against the rock wall with brush sort of made it like a very natural tunnel.

[Brody]

Little cave.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Well, no, because the cave is like dead end.

[Brody]

Okay.

[Steve Rinella]

So a normal cage trap, there's a back wall. This is a double door trap which has its own limitations. It's not perfect, but in this case of a cat that's like, yeah, I'm not doing that again. So we put it again in there and it's two doors open. Now the problem with two doors, and I think this is a bigger problem than Mercer does, he says, this is not actually a problem. And I've made my head. But. So there's a door on each end, both spring loaded. Now picture that the cat who's already on like, you know, high alert. Oh, they just, they're tight, they're wired tight. That thing hits that Pan and in the, in like, you know, this thing moves. That thing moves. That thing moves meaning the trigger mechanism.

[Randall Williams]

There's a lag time.

[Steve Rinella]

Like the pan moves, it pulls a wire, the. That pops a trigger, right? And during that, this already high strung cat, instead of him needing to do a 180, which in a single door trap he's got to spin, right? I'm like, what? How is it that that thing doesn't already get the signal and isn't already out that front door? And he says, he's like, you're making this up.

[Brody]

Maybe they just go and freeze.

[Steve Rinella]

He says it doesn't. Yeah, he says it works. I'll get to the set in a minute. Not do the set right now. So we mount it, we put it in along a very good like natural hunt thing that, that's pulled pack rat. Pack rat ness up in there. So then they're hunting rabbits, hunting pack. Right now it looks very natural. It's an open tunnel. Mounded it with brush so it looks real natural under the pan in the center. He dug it out and he put two kinds of lure in there. Two kinds of cat lure that he makes. He put cat droppings, bobcat droppings inside each door and then sprayed it with a mix signature blend of cat piss and rotten rattlesnake juice, which he shot me in the face with. He's like, I'm sitting when we're rigging the setup, I'm sitting there helping rig the setup and no sooner does he say, hey, you're going to want to move because you're not going to want this on you. And like it's sort of. I like begin my motion and you shot me in the face. So other move. I'm like, yeah, but you didn't give

[Brody]

time to move other than the rattlesnake juice. He's like, he's appealing. Appealing to their like territoriality. It's not like you're getting them in with food.

[Steve Rinella]

It's all see talking to him, man, it's, it's all curiosity now. He says a cat in the north is on a different trip. A cat in the north is hungry desert cats. They're interested in, they want to be, they want to be intrigued. You're not going to get them on like that. He's starving to death.

[Brody]

Because there are like a couple spots in Colorado or be out hunting like whatever cottontails in the winter and run across cage traps like this.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh God.

[Brody]

They'd often have like Christmas tinsel compact discs.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm not that far Yet.

[Brody]

Okay, I got you.

[Steve Rinella]

We hung a On that juniper, the looker's right side of that juniper. Yeah, there's a big, like, purple feather pom pom that I hung there because in that way, he could be up on the rim and see it up on the rim and then have a line of sight to that pom pom. And so two cons. Lure droppings, rattlesnake juice, and then a visual. Some feather visual attractor. Some feather visual attractor inside the cage. When it pops, when that door goes down, it pulls a mag. No, not a magnet. It pulls, like, a pin out of that box. That box. We went and checked one that had gotten tripped by another reason. But depending on the time of day, they want him out there right now. Like, I was surprised. One of his things tripped. And he's taking me to the airport. And it was daytime, and he couldn't get there for five hours. I'm like, what the hell's gonna happen to it in five hours? He's like, that don't fly. It's now. So he had to call someone. I'm like, nothing's gonna happen to that cat in five hours. But he's like, it's just not how it works. Like, when that signal goes, you go. They don't want any risk of harm.

[Brody]

Oh, I got you of harm.

[Steve Rinella]

It gets too hot. It gets too stressed. Something finds it and starts harassing it and stresses it. So it's like you. You go. You ready? You gotta be ready. You gotta. Ready to spring into action. Can you go to my other thing? Yes,

[Brody]

maybe.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude, this is my new favorite painting. What's it called? Man Eaters of Sabo. I didn't know this story. These two lines. This is old story. These two lions. There's this whole story. Theodore Roosevelt commented on this.

[Brody]

I didn't know. You didn't know this?

[Randall Williams]

The Ghost in the darkness.

[Steve Rinella]

They ate 140 people working on a rail line in Africa. And they had to pause railroad construction because these lions. This painting's by John Banovich. It's these lions eating a dude. You can. But all you. It's beautifully done.

[Randall Williams]

There's a great movie, a great movie

[Brody]

that plays fast and loose with the. The facts.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, how do you need to get fast? And I mean, the facts.

[Brody]

They bring in, like, they bring in an American hunter.

[Randall Williams]

Because for an American audience, that's Michael Douglas.

[Steve Rinella]

That's who gets stuff done, man.

[Brody]

Val Kilmer's in it.

[Steve Rinella]

You want something done.

[Randall Williams]

There's the one guy who always plays an imperious. Like British official. I don't know his name, but you'll recognize him.

[Steve Rinella]

He's a method. He's a character actor. As a British official.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Brody]

It's a quick read.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, it's a good read.

[Corinne]

Did we cover that movie in.

[Randall Williams]

I asked a trivia question about it.

[Corinne]

Radio.

[Steve Rinella]

So if you want to see a painting, it is my new. My new goal in life is to get a print, a big nice print of these lions eating that dude's leg. If you want to see a painting. If you're listening and want to see a painting, type in Banovich. B A N O V I C H. I met him. The reason I'm talking about this whole thing. Anyways, I just met him at the. I met him.

[Corinne]

My question is, why is the line on the left. What's up with his face? Is he reacting to the camera?

[Steve Rinella]

He's got Lyme disease.

[Brody]

He's getting someone that's getting too close.

[Steve Rinella]

He's styling it off actual cats.

[Randall Williams]

I read in the. The description of it in the auction site, or I guess on his site, that he saw the mounts of the cats and didn't think they were.

[Steve Rinella]

They were shoddy.

[Randall Williams]

Good enough shape.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

So he visualized sort of the spirit of the cats.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, other cats.

[Brody]

If I'm remembering correctly, it was two males that for some reason didn't have manes.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And they say that they weren't getting any play started.

[Brody]

Focusing on people.

[Steve Rinella]

140 people. Teddy Roosevelt thought it was a cool story. Oh. Anyways, Banovich Media Man Eaters of Savo T S A V O. That is a painting. That's a painting. I'd like to wake up that every day. If I brought that pantyh home and

[Corinne]

I was like, what do you like about it?

[Steve Rinella]

The foot.

[Corinne]

The foot. Okay. That's what I thought.

[Steve Rinella]

The foot.

[Brody]

It's very, very. The human. Correct foot.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, the foot is.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm no painter, but I feel like feet are hard.

[Brody]

I feel like he should have got a little thigh bone in the middle of the.

[Steve Rinella]

No, dude, you can't. Over in the hand. See, if I was drunk. Here's why that painting is good. If I knew how to paint and I was painting that, I'd have a whole pile of dead guys.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

I mean, I'd overdo it. I'd overdo it. There'd be like, dudes parts everywhere and everything.

[Randall Williams]

You know, the artistry is in the restraint.

[Steve Rinella]

So, you know, that's what makes him good, is he knows not to have a whole pile of guys.

[Randall Williams]

The first time I looked at it, I didn't see the foot.

[Corinne]

Yeah, it takes you 30 seconds.

[Steve Rinella]

Minutes. That's why he's a painter and I'm not. Yeah, I'm not.

[Brody]

You should commission him to do something for you.

[Corinne]

But either. Either the human was small or those cats were just. Oh, they're big, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

Those 600 pounds.

[Doug]

I understand. I think like an elk. They're taxidermied at the Field Museum in Chicago.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But I think they're not in great shape. Yeah, that's a pain. Yeah. I would have had all 140 people piled up and like, with an actual

[Randall Williams]

crown on his head.

[Steve Rinella]

And no one about my painting, man. But that painting. Because you look at it and also you're like, oh, my God, there's a foot in there. And it's a good foot.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, it's a great foot.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, David Foster, the writer David Foster Wallace once wrote a piece about. He profiled. He profiled David lynch. And in his discussion of David lynch, he was talking about Quentin Tarantino. And he's talking about Tarantino's famous scene from Reservoir Dogs where a guy gets his ear cut off. And he's talking about David Lynch's famous scene where a man finds an ear. And he said, the difference between David lynch and Quentin Tarantino. Quentin Tarantino is interested in an ear getting cut off. David lynch is interested in the ear. So it's just like a diff. That's me in that painter.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

You know, Yanni.

[Corinne]

Oh, what do I want? Need to talk about my volleyball tournament?

[Steve Rinella]

No, the giveaway, please.

[Corinne]

Oh, the giveaway.

[Steve Rinella]

Your name is next to this down at the Real. We'll give you a minute, Randall. Do you know about this?

[Corinne]

Yanni, Never mind the website giveaway.

[Doug]

We can do it quickly.

[Corinne]

Yeah, you can write a review on any turkey recipe. That one. That's the one you're talking about. Yeah. On theme eater.com. and then you're entered to win a Wild and Hole Cookbook. Easy peasy.

[Steve Rinella]

But you gotta go.

[Corinne]

You gotta go make the recipe if you're gonna do a good job at doing this.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah. Don't, don't, don't. Don't.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, Treat yourself.

[Steve Rinella]

Don't. Just phone it in, dude. Yeah, yeah. But chance to win Wild Hole Cookbook when you go and do a deal. Okay, now Randall's got to plug something.

[Randall Williams]

All right, I need to plug this for my dear friend Kevin Monteith. If he's been on the podcast twice.

[Steve Rinella]

Correct.

[Randall Williams]

Most recently, maybe last year or so. He's a biologist at the University of Wyoming, teaches wildlife science. And he's got a research. He calls it the Monteith Shop. It's like a research lab where they do all kinds of stuff on what we think of as big game, you know, like elk, deer, moose, antelope. They do a lot of migration research, and it's like very applied science. So they're doing a fundraiser banquet that's this coming weekend. If you're listening to this, when the show drops April 11, it's in Laramie. It's called Echoes of the Tracks, and it's their annual fundraising event. Randy Newberg will be there. He's speaking. And they've got. They've still got tickets available. So if you are in the Laramie area, go to monteithshop.org and then there's a little tab that says connect and you'll see echoes of the tracks. Or if you just Google Monteith, Echoes of the Tracks. You can find all the info there. And then they also are doing a raffle with Muley Fanatic foundation for a Wyoming commissioner's license. So that is a commissioner's license allows you to hunt deer, antelope or elk. You pick a species in any unit that's open to hunting. So.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, they got their hands on. That's good.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. Wyoming. Wyoming supports a lot of cool, like conservation groups with those commissioners licenses. So there's. This is called the 77220 Raffle. The 7220 Raffle. If you Google that, you'll find it. And again, they're drawing it the night of the banquet April 11th. So get online and just. You can google 7220 raffle and get yourself in there. Get yourself in there and support wildlife and wildlife research.

[Steve Rinella]

Another thing they focus heavily on at the Monteith shop is the role of prenatal and natal. What's the word? Nutrition.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

On.

[Steve Rinella]

Let me back that up. They do a lot of work around how. Let's just look at it just strictly from antlers. When you see a big buck, they've done a lot of work in exploring, explaining how that big buck, in some ways, his bigness was determined while he was in the womb. The way in which Cowell mule deer does the condition they're in as they're carrying their baby says as much or more about the outcome of that baby than anything that happens in its own life.

[Brody]

And you can also say a lot about the land that they're living on.

[Steve Rinella]

Right?

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Brody]

How productive that that landscape is.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, Those are Phenomenal episodes. And also talks a lot about when we say an area has. When we. There's an area that produces a lot of big bulls or a lot of big bucks. Hunters will say that area has great genetics. He would argue. Maybe I can tell you what it has for sure though is great nutrition.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And low stress.

[Randall Williams]

Fat mothers.

[Steve Rinella]

Low stress. Great nutrition. It's not a genetics thing.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. So check out again monteith shop.org and you can find the link there for the, for the event Echoes of the tracks. And then you can also find this raffle. But April 11th, there's only 750 tickets. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

But pretty much gonna win it for sure. Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

They've got. There are quite a few for sale. So your odds, your odds will probably be better than that. Better than one and 750.

[Steve Rinella]

How much they cost?

[Randall Williams]

100 bucks or 300 for five.

[Steve Rinella]

Really?

[Randall Williams]

Something like that. Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

Remind me after the show. I'm gonna get in on that. I win that sucker.

[Randall Williams]

Let's all get in on it.

[Steve Rinella]

All right, Phil, you're right for corrections. Isn't there one more thing to talk about? Not that I'm aware of.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Just minutes ago. Yeah. You know how hot and fresh my cat update was.

[Randall Williams]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

Carrying that cat trap. This is even hotter and fresher because just minutes ago we wrapped our fur. So Doug Dern been on the show many times. Doug is behind like building a new organization called sharing the land. I'll be talking about this a lot more coming up. Sharing the land is an organization that creates. That pairs access seekers with landowners on the promise of the access seekers doing work, conservation work, whatever kind of things need to be done on the land. So it's not a, a cash exchange that happens, but it's a, a, a work that happens. It could be Any number of the access seekers can come many forms. Fishermen, hunters. They've even had an access seeker who's looking for a great place to walk a dog. And then they got a lot of landowners. They're looking to have certain kinds of projects taken care of on their place. It's growing and we just had the very first. Just minutes ago it became officially a non profit, all incorporated and everything. I'm on the board and we just had our first board meeting. I'll be talking a lot more about that coming up.

[Brody]

Well, you should at least tell people how like give them a website to

[Steve Rinella]

go to if they're interested in type up Sharing land.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Go dig up to go dig up on sharing the Land. We got all kind of ideas we're gonna do to make that.

[Brody]

What kind of work Doug make make your kids do to hunt turkeys.

[Steve Rinella]

He's already told me what they got to do. This year he's doing like a grasslands like sort of like a savannah restoration kind of deal and they got to work on that this year. In the past they've had in the past they've had to burn burn projects, all kinds of things he puts them doing, you know. So this week they're some stream side stuff. But this year it's working on his his open lands area.

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[Steve Rinella]

Hey, it's Steve Rinella from the Meat Eater podcast. If you're putting together an outdoor space and you want it to really stand out, here's something worth knowing about. Decking with Surestone technology is made through a patented process that uses get this crushed rock instead of wood fiber, which is what most composite boards rely on. That difference matters. It gives each board a level of strength and durability that holds up in the real world. Weather, moisture, heavy use, all of it. Decorators also engineered the surface to give you better traction when it's wet, which is a big deal if you live in a rainy area or you've got people moving in and out with wet boots. And one thing I appreciate, you're not locked into one look. With more than 40 different color and size combinations, you can build a deck that actually fits your home and feels like something you designed, not something you settled for. It's comfortable, it's safe, it's durable, and it's going to stand out. Build season is coming up fast, so order a sample today. Visit decorators.com meater to get your free sample of decking made with Surestone technology. That's decorators with A K again. Decorators.com Meater Man, I'll tell you, it wasn't long ago my older boy was kind of catching up to me in height. Now he's an inch and a half taller than I am. It's crazy watching your family grow up. And as your family changes and grows up, you got to make sure that your life insurance policy is tracking along with those changes. You can prioritize peace of mind and lock in your life insurance today so that your family is taken care of if something were to happen to you. Policy Genius is an online insurance marketplace that allows you to compare quotes from some of America's top insurers side by side for free. Their licensed team helps you get what you need fast so you can get on with your life easily. Find what you need. Coverage, amounts, prices, terms. No guesswork, just clarity. Policygenius helps you find your most affordable policy that meets your needs. They have helped over 30 million people shop for insurance, placing over $200 billion in coverage. Policygenius works for you, not the insurance companies, so you can trust the guidance you receive. Protect your family with a policy that grows with your life. With Policy Genius, you can see if you can find 20 year life insurance policies starting at just $276 year for a million dollars in coverage. Head to policygenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com so this week, Corrections ready, Phil?

[Corinne]

Corrections, Corrections.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, all you boot wearers out there. Sorry. This week the winner gets this. This week on corrections, the corrections winner gets a Moultrie Edge 3 Pro trail camera. Not just that, a one year subscription. So you get a. A cellular camera and a one year subscription. So you run your camera, watch stuff, get your great pictures. I would advise you go set it by a beaver dam. That's what I like doing a bunch. But you put, you put, put it wherever the hell you want.

[Brody]

Giannis like setting it so it doesn't take pictures of anything but deer and turkeys.

[Steve Rinella]

No, because he sends me pictures of bobcats and fishers.

[Brody]

I heard him talking about it.

[Corinne]

It depends on the camera location. We have a lot of them set up.

[Steve Rinella]

We set one out for bobcats recently and boy, we've got everything. But down in Texas, you wouldn't believe the stuff that walks by there. But no bobcats.

[Corinne]

Did you see any pictures of me?

[Steve Rinella]

No, I looked. We also have a little problem. We lost the camera. We way pointed where we like waypointed where we wanted to put it based off some information we had. Yeah, and so we way pointed where, then we changed our mind and put it somewhere else. So I'm like, hey Johnny, go get my camera. It's over at this waypoint. And yeah, he goes, there's like definitely no camera.

[Corinne]

He sends me a picture and I'll. And I'm like, send me a picture of what it's looking at. And the grass. There's like one skinny little mesquite. And I look at it, I look around, I go, oh, there's that skinny little mesquite. I walk over there. I'm looking for the camera. I'm like, no, dang. I'll kind of look back. I'm like, oh, there's that mosquito. I walk over there 10 yards and then I see, I see 10 others mesquites that look just like it thought.

[Steve Rinella]

All right, so after he searched, I went in to see if I had any videos of him walking around. And I could, I hate to tell you, weren't even close. I did not catch you looking about.

[Corinne]

We gave it a call.

[Brody]

Pictures from the camera that you don't know where it's at. Yeah, well, that's going to be a bummer when you get.

[Steve Rinella]

It's going to be hard to find, dude.

[Corinne]

But hold on, I thought that now it depends on which model it is, but some of them are. Are GPS enabled.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah. You know what, why didn't we think of that when you were down there?

[Corinne]

It was not really my problem.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, he was acting a little bit like he wasn't going to spend too much time on that issue either. We'll find it. Yeah, we'll use, we'll use that.

[Doug]

This camera does have gps.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh.

[Doug]

So.

[Steve Rinella]

All right, sweet. Plus a one year subscription. You'll be up and running. Send us some cool pictures if you win. Okay. First off. Oh, you know, we wrote in. Okay. Is this a correction? You can ignore this thing about the goats.

[Doug]

No, basically like about 25 to 30% plus of the corrections came in commenting on your reading the numbers.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, oh, like that. They don't like it when you say 110,000. They want to be like when you write a check.

[Doug]

It was like you. Apparently you said, because I didn't go Back to listen. $110,795,000. Like you said thousand twice. So we've got so many nitpickers out

[Steve Rinella]

there, we brought it on ourselves.

[Doug]

You know, that was like the largest number of corrections were for that.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, so we got millions of corrections. We picked out three that we like. One is about how Randall don't know sports.

[Brian Harmon]

Sure.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, There are a lot of these. Got a lot of messages. The, the team here that answers these emails forward Quite a number of these to me. So in episode 853, I interviewed Will Cheddar from the University of Michigan basketball team and afterwards is sort of a throwaway line just to gas up a friend of the program. I said, he's the hardest fisherman in college sports or hardest fishing dude in college sports. Something like that.

[Steve Rinella]

Which is very subjective.

[Randall Williams]

Very subjective. I'll know. When you say he's the coolest guy in town, no one turns to you and says, have you met everybody in town? You know, so as soon as I said that, actually this went through my head that there are college fishing teams.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And I chimed in and agreed with you, but I don't know what I'm talking.

[Randall Williams]

And then I didn't listen and then I didn't know what else to say other than yeah, that's what I agree with. So anyway, with this email from Layton from Oklahoma got selected as the most, I think, articulate and well supported one. There are a lot of them that accused me of insulting college bass fishing

[Steve Rinella]

teams without even bringing them up.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, yeah. One accused me of both omitting it and dismissing it, which I think is a contradiction in terms, or overlooking it and dismissing it. So anyway, with the demands of tournament. Layton writes, with the demands of tournament play, regular season games, practices and schoolwork, I respectfully disagree that will can claim this title. Dedicated college bass fishing athletes spend far more time on the water as a part of their actual sport. For instance, athletes like Garrett Smith of Lander University and his teammate Andrew Blanton have won back to back strike king. Bassmaster College National Championships. College bass teams compete in multiple events per season across the Bassmaster College Series. With tournaments often spanning two days plus official practice periods, many teams fish 10 to 15 or more events annually, in addition to countless hours of off season practice, scouting and travel, all while maintaining full academic schedules. This level of on the water commitment easily surpasses what a student athlete in another sport, even one who fishes recreationally. As much as Will can log, these college anglers truly embody what it means to be the hardest fishers in college sports. Keep up the great work on the podcast. I enjoy it every week.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know now I kind of flip flopped on this one.

[Randall Williams]

You thought it was.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, where did you start? You were wrong. But I'm like, these guys are just in it for the money. They're in it for the money, dude.

[Randall Williams]

I. If someone, I mean chatter dude's in

[Steve Rinella]

it for the love, you know, I'm well aware of.

[Randall Williams]

I'm well aware of college bass fishing competitions. When we were in Arbor and met Will, we, we went fishing with the University of Michigan fishing team. Will connected us with them because he fishes with.

[Steve Rinella]

Because he fishes that hard and harder than they do.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, well, yeah, that's, that's, that's really what I intended to make on this podcast was just a solid claim that Will fish is harder than anyone instead of just sort of being a throwaway line. But in any event, yeah, as soon as I said this and we got like 30 seconds past it in the, in the podcast, I thought, oh, maybe I should have said something about college bass fishing.

[Steve Rinella]

Wrong.

[Randall Williams]

But I didn't want to bring it back up. And if someone in the room had said, randall, you're forgetting about college bass fishing, I wouldn't have fought them on it. I would have just said, you know what?

[Steve Rinella]

You're right.

[Randall Williams]

But what I'm interested in highlighting is that a guy who's playing for the national championship tonight went fishing in between winning an Elite eight game and winning a Final four game. You know, like, I think it's, I just meant to highlight that it's cool that he's fishing. And I also don't think.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm not voting for this guy.

[Randall Williams]

I don't think that. And this is, this is nothing against, like, my pushback here is nothing against college bass fishing anglers. I won't, I don't want that to be misconstrued, but like, but I, I don't think the time on the water is a measure of how hard one fishes. I think a retired dentist who fishes every single day of his life is not necessarily a harder guy, a harder angler than like somebody who works a 10 hour shift and fishes two hours on the way home every single day. Like, I think there's some balance. I think, like when I talk about someone who hunts or fishes hard, I think about how they commit to it within the broader responsibilities of their lives. So, so that's.

[Steve Rinella]

Don't stand corrected.

[Randall Williams]

No, I think, I think it's a fine correction to highlight that there's competitive college bass fishing out there. That's.

[Steve Rinella]

But do they fish?

[Randall Williams]

I don't, I don't push back against that. But I think, like taking. Yeah, like. And Will has never claimed to be the hardest fishing guy. Again, this was just a throwaway line. So I stand corrected. But.

[Steve Rinella]

But not.

[Randall Williams]

But not fully.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, what you're doing is you're doing one of those. I like it too. I like to do this, trying to keep everyone saying, okay, so I'M wrong, but am I right? Well, you're doing one of those.

[Randall Williams]

What I'm saying is like this. You know what I meant to say here? I was just meaning to highlight someone who excels in one area of life also being super passionately committed to fishing.

[Steve Rinella]

Yep. Let's say there's a guy that works.

[Randall Williams]

I think as a community we should celebrate that.

[Steve Rinella]

Let's say there's a guy that works 23 hours a day.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

He works a 23 hour shift seven days a week.

[Randall Williams]

Fish is one minute.

[Steve Rinella]

And then when he has an hour, his, when his shift ends. His shift ends at 10:00pm yeah. And he's due back at 11:00pm A lot of guys are gonna go home and get like a check in on their wife. Goodbye, take a nap. He goes out to the pond out back and just pounds water.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

For one hour. And I'm like, that's the hardest fishing man out there. These guys would be like, who do. There's a professional bass fisherman. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I, and I. It's not what I meant.

[Randall Williams]

And that's truly like, I 100% stand on that. Like, I don't think time on the water is the only measure of, of how hard somebody positions.

[Steve Rinella]

You can make the other two if they're fishing yellow perch or something, but they're fishing bass.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Brody]

You could make the argument too that that cheddar is all about doing it for the love of it.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh yeah, these guys, because these are big, big, high roller, big, big, big money college bass guys.

[Randall Williams]

I don't want to make any, I don't want to make any excursions or, or, or put anything else out there in the world that could be taken the wrong way.

[Steve Rinella]

Brody thinks the corrections is taking the whole show over.

[Brody]

It is.

[Corinne]

All right, number two correction.

[Steve Rinella]

All right, here's a good one. For example, this is corrected. Oh, this is correcting me. I screwed up.

[Corinne]

Well.

[Steve Rinella]

Or not. So in episode 857 at the end of Spencer's segment about the super bloom and death Death Valley, Steve makes the statement that somewhere outside of Santiago, Chile is the driest place on earth. I believe the area he is referring to is the Atacama Desert. Correct. That's what we're referring to. He says this has been referred to as the driest place on earth. But that statement comes with an asterisk. Asterisk, Risk. I never say this because the full story is it is the driest. This, this is a good correction. It's the driest non polar Desert on Earth. Okay. They base the dryness of an area on its availability of liquidity water. And there is a place that has less. In the Atacama, the average annual rainfall is about 15 millimeters, with some areas receiving only 1 to 3 millimeters of annual precipitation. Annual rainfall. Meanwhile, the McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica receive anywhere from 5 to 100 millimeters per year. But that precipitation falls strictly as snowfall. Now, once you take into account the other factors, such as temperature and humidity, that's when it becomes more clear. The extreme cold and strong winds that sweep most snowfall that does occur leave no trace of water left. Some areas within the valleys have not seen liquid water in over 2 million years. On the flip side, the Atacama Desert also has the benefit of common chaka, or coastal fog, adding a little humidity to the area. So, in short, while the Atacama Desert receives less precipitation than almost anywhere on Earth, it is still not considered the driest place on Earth. That belongs. That title belongs to. To the McMurdo Dry Valleys. And then he has a nitpick where I say just outside of Santiago, Chile, and he points out that this is actually 500 miles away. Whatever.

[Corinne]

Good correction.

[Steve Rinella]

That's a great correction. It is. Yeah. He didn't lay out his credentials 2 million years. Go on.

[Brody]

Oh, I got to talk about another dry place since Spencer's not here.

[Steve Rinella]

This is real bad on Spencer. Looks real bad.

[Brody]

This is bad math Spencer. Episode 857 Spencer was setting up a discussion for the Death Valley super bloom. And why is he rolling me into this? I don't know why I'm gonna take you out of it, because you just

[Steve Rinella]

have nothing to do with this.

[Brody]

Yeah, this was Spencer's deal, not Steve's unit. And Spencer mentioned that Death Valley was the former site of a lake. And he also mentioned at one point, the lake used to be 7,000ft deep, which is over a mile deep.

[Steve Rinella]

Now, this guy does a big old swing here and really gets into his credentials.

[Brody]

This is where this is. Like, you can't. Like, we can't argue with this guy. After you read this part. As a geologist who studied the basin and range during my graduate years and currently studies Pleistocene geology in the upper Midwest, I knew immediately that this was right for a correction. So don't mess with this guy. Yes, there was a lake that existed across much of Death Valley during the Pleistocene. Based on its hydrology and lack of outflow, that's where Steve and I checked in, I think. Was that it's a dead end.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. But I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Brody]

Dead End Basin. However, that lake was never 7,000ft deep, even at its maximum. The lake that was referred to in the discussion is called Lake Manly and is still called that today. When water accumulates in Badwater Basin, core records and age dating from the Lowenstein, that's the period of time you want. Do you need to explain that?

[Steve Rinella]

No, that's.

[Brody]

He's citing a journal from Lowenstein recognized two major periods of time when Death Valley had a perennial lake. The earliest was 186 to 120,000 years ago, and the latest was 35,000 to 10,000 years ago. Both periods where the climate was very cool and wet. The period from 186,000 to 120,000 years ago is believed to be when Lake Manley was at its largest and deepest extent at 335 meters or 1099ft. While it is difficult to estimate the true depth of Lake Manley at its largest extent, it was definitely not 7,000ft deep at any point.

[Steve Rinella]

Big old correction right in Spencer's face. Right into his face.

[Brody]

6,000ft off Spencer.

[Steve Rinella]

You could still deep drop that lake.

[Brody]

Oh yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

That's like electric real. That's like electric real country. No one wants to do that without

[Randall Williams]

probably Spencer's not here today.

[Steve Rinella]

I think he just meant you could deep drop it.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

I think that's funny that Corinne laughed at your deep drop joke.

[Doug]

Yeah. Because we're gonna do a whole.

[Steve Rinella]

We're gonna do a whole show. Deep Drop Boys.

[Doug]

And then they were gonna do a whole like music video.

[Steve Rinella]

Dude. Me and Seth had a show. We're gonna go.

[Corinne]

And what happened?

[Doug]

Yeah, just. It was a nice.

[Steve Rinella]

Haven't gotten it going yet. Looking for a sponsor. We go to the deepest places and lower down a jig or like a bait Mariana. People just tune in to see if we catch something.

[Corinne]

Now that you've expanded it to the world, I'm intrigued.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody]

You know that. That trend, it's like. What is it, Nori? Norwegian slow tv.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, that's what you're.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh. Because the first three episodes, is it gonna be hitting? Is it gonna be going down?

[Doug]

Yeah, that's the best idea. Like, we've been talking about doing some kind of slow tv.

[Randall Williams]

It's basically just a show called do we have enough line? A lot of episodes. You just don't have enough line.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. So to the. The multi trail camera. One year subscription. Get all kinds of crazy photos. You can send us Hardest angler in college sports how many votes? Driest place on earth. Four votes. It's already decided. But just for the hell of it, Death Valley gets two votes. I might change my vote.

[Doug]

Okay.

[Corinne]

No, no, no.

[Brian Harmon]

Here's a question.

[Doug]

If someone is like hyper credentialed versus if. If it's. If the audience member is a layperson who gets interested and inspired to do research, like does that weigh how you.

[Steve Rinella]

I can't let that. I can't.

[Corinne]

I don't think it should weigh.

[Steve Rinella]

That'd be like picking your kid to win something.

[Brody]

I just went based on the degree of the mistake. Just seemed more extreme than your mistake.

[Steve Rinella]

Real extreme. And a goofs on Spencer. So I like it.

[Randall Williams]

But you were on the wrong continent.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. No, that's true. I was off. Yeah. So he was.

[Randall Williams]

You were more than 6, 000ft off.

[Steve Rinella]

We.

[Corinne]

We learned a lot from both those. They were both good.

[Steve Rinella]

And they're at a comma. Dude had the double whammy where I also said it was just. I don't know why I said it was just us.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah,

[Steve Rinella]

he had a double wing.

[Randall Williams]

But anytime.

[Steve Rinella]

He could have won just off that.

[Randall Williams]

Anytime. You can tell me something about Antarctica. I'm listening.

[Corinne]

Yeah, that was a great follow up fact.

[Steve Rinella]

Yanni.

[Corinne]

Seal finger.

[Doug]

Oh, wait. So. Thanks Gable. So number two wins.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, do we name their names? Because now people are gonna be like, hey, can I borrow your trail jam?

[Doug]

Okay, Phil can bleep that out.

[Steve Rinella]

I heard the good news.

[Doug]

Congratulations.

[Corinne]

Late record. See if I.

[Steve Rinella]

They're gonna want to put their cameras under my camera membership.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Can I put my cameras under your deal?

[Randall Williams]

I didn't mean to blow up your spot blank.

[Corinne]

If you don't have a spot for that camera, I do. Yep. Seal finger. In case you guys were still interested in that. This fellow wrote in to say that his dad's hand made the news show. He was really excited. Turns out that his dad has what he thinks is like the most maybe researched case of seal finger ever. And the pictures that were taken are like constantly getting used on the Internet. Just happened to be the one that. That Corinne found or I don't know who found it.

[Steve Rinella]

We pulled up some random seal finger photo. He's listening and he's like, that sounds like my dad's hand.

[Corinne]

Yeah. And yeah. So he sent in. They were very excited that their family is now part of the meat eater universe. Randall highlighted this piece in his letter that we all laughed about. He writes, I called dad and told him about it. He couldn't laugh that hard because he had just Broken his ribs from a snowmobiling mishap. Later that day, he also lit his hair on fire using a friend's propane stove, which I have a video of. This. This fella's injury prone is what they call that. But small world's. Part of his story, though, is he's, like, in the hospital getting ready to get surgery done on his hand, and the nurse is checking on him, seeing that it's getting worse. And she calls the doctor on call and explains the situation. The doc goes, hey, ask the guy if he's been seal hunting lately. And he replies, yes, I have. And he goes, I'll be right down with the proper antibiotics. And so instead of having to have surgery, they just hit him with the proper antibiotics and fixed them right up. So, yeah, I don't know. Moral of the story is there. It's like the more you know, right.

[Steve Rinella]

Because,

[Corinne]

yeah, saved him from having surgery just by being able to be like, yeah, surgery, you have a little card in your wallet.

[Brian Harmon]

Right.

[Corinne]

That kind of is supposed to act in that same way.

[Steve Rinella]

But I'm just reading another thing he's got here. This is a rich letter.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

He says a few years later, a friend was telling someone about the incident and searched it online. There it was, Dad's hand. Unmistakable because he had a small tattoo dot between his thumb and index. That was a test tattoo. So he at one point did a test tattoo to see about getting a tattoo and didn't. But he still has the dot from the test.

[Brody]

Well, it was all. It was a test tattoo to. From one he was going to do himself with pen ink and a needle. Yeah, that's the good part.

[Corinne]

He signs off by saying, as they do in Newfoundland, long may your big jib draw, which is a traditional Newfoundland toast. And saying that means may the wind always be in your sails. Which, Steve, in this case, you guys weren't here before we were recording, but we had a conversation about how some sayings don't translate well because they lose the sort of their. Their flow or their rhythm or you had other terms for it, but I feel like this one is actually better by saying, when you say, may the wind always be in your sails versus long may your big jib draw, that just doesn't roll off my tongue.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, okay, you're right. But there's. It's not just saying. What I was trying to explain is I was like. We have this saying, a stitch in time saves nine. And there's like a. There's a lyrical quality to it and a Rhyme.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So if some hoser in like Italy is saying, in America they have a saying and he does the saying in Italian, but it loses its rhymey quality and maybe it's not an efficient transfer of words and so it winds up being clunky and then go like. Well, that doesn't sound like a great saying because they're losing the fact that ours is rhymey and quick.

[Randall Williams]

If you stitch it now, you may save yourself upwards of eight to nine stitches over a longer duration of time.

[Steve Rinella]

Correct. And they'd be like, that doesn't sound like a great saying. Or there's, there's this. I've never, I've never gone and fact checked this. But. But some of the tribes on the Colombian plateau had a word for the Bitterroot Mountains and it was like the. The spine of the Bitterroots. I never fact checked this. I've just been told this. The spine of the bitters. They would talk about that and it would say that that marked the land beyond which there are no salmon. But I feel like it's like when we do that with native expressions, it probably. It just takes on a very different tonality. And maybe in their languages it was just. It wasn't. It didn't have that like, sounds like someone translating, like profound. Yeah, yeah. The land beyond which there are no salmon. It might have just been some little, you know, something that was.

[Brody]

Bother going over there.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Like more quick, you know, that's all. Here's the etiquette question. Are we good on those? We're good. Long may your big jib draw. What was the other saying? You were just hitting us with? Yanni. May you have the journey you prepared for.

[Corinne]

May you have the race that you prepared for.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, no. Okay, this is coming in. A guy says he lives in a small city in central Nebraska. This is an adequate question. Adequate etiquette. Everybody pay attention. Not a tourniquet. It's an etiquette question. I have an adequate question for you guys that I've been wrestling with over the past few days. He just recently got back into archery. He shoots at his city's public outdoor archery range. He says this past week he missed a shot low on one of the targets. He's the only one at the range. So he goes out there and starts looking for his lost arrow. He looks for 30 minutes. During that time, he finds seven arrows, none of which were his own. He gives up for the day. But then later remembers a trick from one of the hot tip offs from the late radio live show. We could pick those hot tip ups off. He remembers a tip where a guy says, hey, if you're trying to find arrows, wait till night and use a black light to find your arrows. That was a hot tip. He remembers hearing this hot tip about using a black light to find your arrow. So he went and bought a black light. Goes back out to the range after dark. Found his arrow in under a minute. Kept looking around and found 12. A dozen arrows. Here's the question. Are these his? Is it keepsies? Is it finders keepers, losers weepers? Or should he go set them all out hoping that the right people come find them? This is legit. This is a legit question. This is a great question. I know exactly how I would handle it.

[Brody]

I think you'd probably take them and put them in a little bucket at the range and be like, are these yours, dude?

[Steve Rinella]

Because they're going to get stolen by. No, listen, other people are going to steal them.

[Corinne]

I think both are correct.

[Steve Rinella]

In this case, I'm saying finders keepers only because you have no community. Well, okay, I'm back. I agree with Brody. Leave.

[Randall Williams]

I think you put up a sign at the range says lose narrow. Text me a description, and I'll see if I have it correct.

[Brody]

Or you could do this. Pick the real two or three sweet ones out and then put the beat up.

[Randall Williams]

I mean, I think if he says

[Corinne]

that out of those 20 that he found, four of them are the right size, weight, length, which you better check on the spine, too. But he says that they would work great in a setup. I. I think that, yes, those people that lost their arrows could have done what he did and found their arrows. They didn't. They've, like, assumed loss. Now, is it a nice thing to do? Just put them in a bucket and say, hey, I found a bunch of arrows for you guys. Sure. But, like, I wouldn't feel bad if you.

[Steve Rinella]

If you.

[Corinne]

I wouldn't be like, oh, dude, you're an asshole for taking those four arrows.

[Brody]

Better than being in the ground.

[Randall Williams]

My. My red line would be if you're checking every week and throwing them up on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace. Yeah, my. My red line would be like, if this becomes a systematic way of acquiring arrows that you can then resell.

[Corinne]

Yeah. This guy says he only has four or five of his own arrows, so four more would really help him out. It double his double. His quiver.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, it's tough one. He says he's gonna bring him back. He says when I lose the arrow, I just figure it's gone. Because on the other hand, if I went down to shoot and there's my arrow sitting there next to the deal.

[Brody]

Yeah, it does say a lot about kind of the throwaway culture that we're of kind comfortable with too. It's kind of a bummer.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. But you never know.

[Corinne]

There could be arrows are tough to find.

[Randall Williams]

There could be a guy that zipped an arrow down there and then he looked for for five minutes, had to go to something and thought I'm going to come back later and you don't want to deprive that guy of the satisfaction of finding his arrow.

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[Steve Rinella]

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[Brody]

Well, the Iran thing did overlap a little bit with tungsten, for example, and

[Doug]

then we appropriately cover.

[Steve Rinella]

Great point. Like tungsten. Tungsten is used in munitions. It's used in killing turkeys. So there's a, like they collide. No area do they collide. More, though, in discussions about the border wall, when we talked about the idea of an impenetrable physical barrier between the US And Mexico, we have often brought up what does this mean for wildlife movements? What does it mean for wildlife movements. And then people will write in, they'll be real mad and they'll be like, I'm never listening again. You've never lost your job to an illegal immigrant, right? And I'm like, I wasn't talking about that. I was sticking to the part of this that is relevant to what we talk about when we do the show. If you were over for dinner, I would love to talk to you about the illegal immigration crisis of a few years back. I would love to talk to you about that at my house. That's not what I'm going to talk about here. We talk about the wall in terms of wildlife movements and whether you think that we should build a, a mile high, hundred yard thick wall from coast to, from the Gulf to the Pacific or whatever, that's great. If that's what you believe, you have to hold in your head that that would have implications for wildlife. Meaning this is the way I've used to explain this before. Let's say you're sitting around and you're debating whether or not it's a good idea that the family go on a family vacation this year, right? And you're factoring all the things in, time off work, other maybe some family obligations. You should be taking care of, what it's going to cost, right? You factor all these things in and maybe you decide, you know what, all things considered, we're still going to go on vacation. So you could think about all this wildlife issues and be like, I've considered all these wildlife issues that jaguars won't ever repopulate, you know, the US they're not going to be able to come back into Arizona ever. There's some free ranging buffalo herds in Mexico that would never cross and mule deer, whatever. You could be like, I understand all that. I'm wide eyed. I still want the biggest wall in the world. I'd be like cool. Glad you thought about everything and came to your conclusion. So in talking about this, that's, that's how we've discussed the wall. Well right now it's kind of a weird twist because they keep the, the Fed, the feds have this, the, the, this map they keep putting up showing like what kinds of barriers they're going to use along the border. And you can have electronic barriers which is basically surveillance equipment. You could have a personnel barrier which is just a heightened presence of, of custom and border patrol individuals on the landscape. And you have a physical wall barrier. Big old storm down in the Big Bend area because of whether or not they're Going to want to run the border wall along the border of Big Bend National Park. And this is one of those weird ones where you get like a real NIMBY component and it has hit. It has come up against some staunch opposition from. This is one of those stories where the opposition comes from an unlikely place where ranchers in the area, hunting guides in the area, river rat, like river users in the area are like, there ain't no need for a wall here. There's no one down here anyways.

[Brody]

It's kind of like not so much that it's coming from an unlikely place as much as it is like, like unlikely people partnering up too. Yeah, like the, the thing we saw with pebble mine, right?

[Steve Rinella]

Yep. So top. Because here, for instance, like picture you got like big horns, black bears, deer relying on movements and river access. Right. So this is, there's just been a lot of, a lot of debate, some protesting various things going on about are they going to do this down in this little, this extremely remote area. And there's some statistics coming out of this. So this is like a, a guy that a listener wrote into us about this as well. The Big Ben sector, okay. In 2023, the Big Ben sector was running 1500 immigration encounters per month. Okay. The El Paso, so 1, 500 encounters per month in the Big Bend area. So what do you compare that to? Let's say El Paso. El PASO was running 50, 000 immigration encounters per month in the El Paso sector. And then, you know, I mean that, that stuff is just dropped when the Trump administration came in, like that stuff has just dropped off incredibly quickly. So right now, 2025, they've reduced the number of apprehensions by 74%. So they were at 1500 immigration encounters per month in 23. It's down 74% today. And so people are saying it's just, there's no need to like in a case like this in the Big Bend area, when you weigh the wildlife risk against the illegal immigration risk, it, it doesn't weigh out. And I think that's, that's what some listeners are arguing.

[Brody]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Doug]

Oh yeah. It was just there are also other techniques like sky surveillance drones etc that are deployed that have seemed to be pretty effective.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, the electronic wall.

[Doug]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Replacing with the electronic wall surveillance issues. He has an interesting quote in an inner. One of the guys that wrote and has an interesting observation. A little bit incendiary, so I'm not going to get into it, but he's talking about separating man from nature. He says the Tower of Babel. I'm not going to read this quote. He takes him. He takes us. He swings for the stuff. What's that expression? Shoots for the stars in the end. Swings for the fences in that one. But an interesting deal. And so people in this area, I think it's not going to happen. That's my. If I crystal ball it, I think they're not going to do the wall there. But apparently you can go to this. This site and like refresh on it and see this like ever changing plans about what kind of where the wall is going to be constructed.

[Randall Williams]

And here's. Here's one statistic that the 510 miles in this region. The border patrol has recorded an average of six crossings a day in this region.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Randall Williams]

So, like it's. It's the least active. The Republican sheriff of Terrell county says this is the least active sector of the whole border. And you're talking about building a wall through a national park.

[Steve Rinella]

What does that sheriff think about it?

[Randall Williams]

He is apparently not. I mean, he seems to concede that it's not necessary. I don't want to speak beyond what he's quoted is here, but he's a border patrol veteran and a Republican sheriff and he says it's the least active sector along the whole border. So

[Steve Rinella]

I'd like to dig in more on this with like an interview subject at some point. Just the wall.

[Doug]

The wall at this point or in other stories.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

From a wild. From a wildlife perspective. From a wildlife perspective.

[Doug]

Population separated.

[Steve Rinella]

We had a story like that that we didn't report on. You're right. We had a story we didn't report on about implications for desert bighorns.

[Doug]

Yep. In California.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And if there is a way to weigh. I feel like there is a way to weigh electronic surveillance and other mech. Like other methods that are maybe faster, less disruptive, more effective sometimes probably less expensive. Whatever. To do things electronically and achieve the same goal. It might wind up being. The decision just gets made that way. I mean, just look at like. I mean, you know, I don't need to point it out. The advancements in surveillance through drones.

[Brody]

That's what I was gonna like.

[Steve Rinella]

And then AI work to weed out, like to weed out false hits where it's like, you know, that's a deer. That's whatever. That's whatever. That's a human, you know, could wind up being that it just becomes a. It comes like a. That the idea of a wall in some of these areas becomes. It's just an obsolete notion because there's better ways of accomplishing the same thing.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, the.

[Steve Rinella]

When me and Yanni there are down hunting, we're often looking at those big blimps. Remember guys saying that blimp. That blimp. Counting the hair on your head right now. All right, Randall, set up your interview.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. So we've got another interview from the Meat Eater sports desk. We talked to Brian Harmon, former podcast guest, former trivia contestant, the Butcher, Brian the Butcher Harmon, and he is headed to Augusta, Georgia this week to play in the Masters. And So that's Thursday April 9th to Sunday, April 12th. And so Phil, why don't you play the interview? Welcome back to the Meat Eater News sports desk. I'm your host, Randall Williams. Joined today by Brian Harmon, four time PGA Tour winner and the 2023 winner of the Open Championship and a contestant in mediator trivia episode 495. Brian, it's great to have you.

[Brian Harmon]

Thanks for having me.

[Randall Williams]

Well, the Masters tease off on April 9th at Augusta National. As we all know, it's a tradition unlike any other. How's your freezer looking right now?

[Brian Harmon]

It's a, it's. It's a little bare. We, we had a pretty lean deer season, but we killed us killed a few turkeys last. Over the last couple weeks. So we're, we're, we're working our way back up. We're about to be fishing soon.

[Randall Williams]

I was gonn supplementing that at all with some fish. I know you're a big spear fisherman.

[Brian Harmon]

Yeah, we gotta, we gotta catch some this summer. We gotta catch some flounder. We got a really good triple tail run around St. Simon, so hopefully we'll get some.

[Randall Williams]

Very nice. Now picture this scenario. Sunday afternoon at Augusta. Everything's going your way. You're on the back nine and in contention for the win. Your family's cheering you on. Now picture this entirely unrelated scenario. It's the third week of October. Tomorrow morning you've got a pretty much guaranteed limit of wood ducks lined up. But there's also a pretty decent buck showing up on your trail camera. He wouldn't be your personal best, but maybe he's just smaller than your third best buck. Are you more excited to go to the treestand or the duck blind that morning?

[Brian Harmon]

Treestand.

[Randall Williams]

Treestand, huh? The deer's calling your name. Are you still shooting fixed blades?

[Brian Harmon]

Yes, I am. I did kill a buck with an expandable last year.

[Randall Williams]

Gotcha. And that was that a conversion process. Are you sold now? Are you still.

[Brian Harmon]

I killed. I killed two bucks I killed two bucks with my bow last year and I shot one with a fixed blade and the exit wound was so tiny, I think I just gotten to where that I'd worked on so much penetration with the, with the, with my arrow that it's almost like it zips through our little whitetails. I've kind of had set up for elk and expandable on our, on our bucks at home. You know, the bucks we kill are probably only 170, 180 pounds maybe.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, it's easy to chase your tail on, on bullets and arrows.

[Brian Harmon]

You know, you can, you can chase that dragon for a long time.

[Randall Williams]

Now, Brian, your PGA Tour website bio lists you as a left handed golfer who does everything else right handed. I've got two questions. Are you left or right eye dominant? And do you shoot a gun like a normal person or do you shoot it left handed?

[Brian Harmon]

I shoot a gun like a normal person. I'm left eye dominant. So if I'm, if I'm killing ducks, I've got, I've got both eyes open. But if I'm, if I'm shooting for numbers, trying to hit a bunch of skeet or something, I'll close my left eye.

[Randall Williams]

Interesting. Interesting. Now you're headed into Augusta. As a former major champion, you know that course you've contended there. But as best I can tell from a quick Google search of the Georgia hunting regs, the Masters in April falls smack dab in the middle of turkey season. So do you find it's more helpful to kill a turkey before Augusta so you're coming into the tournament clear headed and focused, or does postponing your gobbler hunt until after the drama of Sunday afternoon help keep that fire in your belly?

[Brian Harmon]

You know, if I can kill some turkeys before, it tends to work out a whole lot better. My mind doesn't, doesn't wander nearly as much, but I'm very peculiar about my, my calendar. This time of year I might steal a day Monday after Augusta and then we, Georgia does great. We have a youth season we had two weekends ago, so I got take my boy. And then our opener was last weekend and we had a big time. So I've done some Target, which has been really nice.

[Randall Williams]

Now on the show recently, Spencer acknowledged that when he went to the Masters he gobbled at you. And I believe that you conveyed to Steve or Corinne that you heard it

[Corinne]

and you look, I heard him and

[Randall Williams]

you knew it was him. It was not a turkey. It was not convincing.

[Brian Harmon]

Yeah, I could tell it was a man Yelping at me for sure.

[Corinne]

But,

[Brian Harmon]

yeah, you guys are kind of. You guys are kind of spot on about the wildlife at Augusta. It is few and far between.

[Randall Williams]

You're not even looking for anything interesting. You're just. I guess it's understandable. You just focus on playing golf. Sure.

[Brian Harmon]

It's a. It's a. It's a beautiful place. And if I wasn't sure that if I, you know, if you pull your phone out there, I'm not sure that they wouldn't just send an airstrike right where you were standing. But that Merlin app. Yeah, I think Corinne was talking about. I use it all the time at home. That's.

[Steve Rinella]

It's awesome.

[Brian Harmon]

But I would love to just click that onto my bag and. Yeah, that could find some.

[Randall Williams]

That's probably the one cell phone application that the. The master's rules did not have in mind when they banned all cell phones from the course.

[Brian Harmon]

I think. I think they're smart enough to only pipe in native birds.

[Randall Williams]

Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, Brian, should you walk away with the green jacket at the end of the weekend, you will be hosting next year's champions dinner. And I would like to ask you to make a hard commitment right now to the non live audience of this prerecorded segment. Will you serve meat you have personally killed and butchered at next year's champions dinner if you win in Augusta?

[Brian Harmon]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Randall Williams]

What would you. What would you serve? Have you given any thought to that just in your daydreaming?

[Brian Harmon]

I tell you what, what would be incredible. I think my favorite meal is the way that I like cooking elk tenderloin, which is nothing fancy, but if I were to kill. If I were to win the Masters and killing it. Kill an elk this fall, man, to serve tenderloin now, I might have to. I might have to get some buddies to donate some tenderloin so I can feed everybody. Because 2 10, two tenderloins won't feed 20 something dudes. But, man, that might make for a cool appetizer.

[Randall Williams]

Oh, yeah. Well, Brian, thanks so much for your time. Check Brian out playing in the Masters. Thursday, April 9th to Sunday, April 12th.

[Steve Rinella]

12th.

[Randall Williams]

Friend of the program. We appreciate you joining us and good luck out there.

[Brian Harmon]

Anytime, man. Love y'.

[Steve Rinella]

All.

[Randall Williams]

Yep. Take care. Another hell of a segment, Phil.

[Steve Rinella]

You don't have to tell me, Randall.

[Doug]

We wish Brian the best of luck.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

That's the hardest, hardest hunting man in Georgia.

[Randall Williams]

I almost said pull it.

[Steve Rinella]

Pull it.

[Randall Williams]

We don't want any more corrections, but

[Steve Rinella]

hardest hunting man in the American south right there, ladies and gentlemen.

[Randall Williams]

Brian's. Brian's a good sport and he's. He's a fan of the show, so it's good to chat with him.

[Steve Rinella]

Do you remember we were golfing with him that one time and we were shooting at deer targets with golf balls and he hit the deer.

[Randall Williams]

He hit it.

[Doug]

Oh, he was good.

[Steve Rinella]

I couldn't believe it.

[Randall Williams]

I wasn't there for that.

[Steve Rinella]

No, he's dead. I think he missed his first shot, barely. And then we had some 3D targets out and we hit the target, hit the deer with the golf ball.

[Doug]

He was good.

[Steve Rinella]

That dude was good with a golf club. He's gonna win that whole thing. I don't know anybody else down there. Greg Norman. I don't know who he's playing again.

[Corinne]

No, not Greg Norman anymore. That is a golf name, though.

[Randall Williams]

Couple names we could scratch off the list.

[Steve Rinella]

He's going to beat all them guys, I can tell you that much.

[Corinne]

Yeah, like you were saying earlier, it's a. It's a. It's a feat just to be in that. Be in the tournament.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, yeah.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

It's wild.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody]

Is that why Spencer's not here? Is he going to the Masters?

[Steve Rinella]

He would probably. He's been.

[Randall Williams]

He's been. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, he said he was. He said he was watching Brian Harmon play one time and yelped at him and he said that Brian Harmon looked and Brian Harmon said he do. He does remember that.

[Randall Williams]

Well, you know that because you got to that in the interview. Remember when we just watched the period.

[Steve Rinella]

To be clear, I asked about the interview. Yeah. I asked if it went well. Take that out, Phillips. It makes me look bad. Makes you look. I'm not vetting the material.

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[Steve Rinella]

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[Corinne]

Catalina back to Catalina Island. I'm really not that interested in this story anymore, but here's where. No, it's. I'm saying that just to say that we've all said that it was more. It was hyped up.

[Brody]

No, that gets the audience. Like, he's like, why? Why?

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, okay.

[Corinne]

It was so hyped up by a lot of hunters about saving these deer. Like now I'm kind of like, yeah, I don't know, a small little population of these deer. Like, is it like on the grand scheme of things? And the other thing I keep coming back to Is that if these deer are gone, no one's really losing, like, this great hunting opportunity because the hunting opportunities sucked beforehand. No. And everybody just complained about it.

[Steve Rinella]

It.

[Corinne]

How poor it was. Right. They made it very difficult for hunters to go there and have a good hunt, etc.

[Brody]

Big Buck Factory where you're like, oh, I wish I could get on that island.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Like, for the few locals that were, you know, being able to get some deer meat out of it, maybe. Maybe those. Maybe white buffalo will hook them up.

[Steve Rinella]

I think what the issue was is, like, can you. For people just tune in now? Can you do a recap? There's. Yeah, like, there's an island.

[Corinne]

There's an Island. Like eight. Eight deer or ten deer were brought there 100 years ago, roughly. And for hunting purposes, it turned into a population of about 2, 000. The island itself, those never had any, like, large ungulates, any herbivores that lived on it. So all the California plant life that lives there can't withstand the pressure, supposedly, from these deer and the buffalo that live on this island as well.

[Steve Rinella]

Use the goats that used to live on the island. Island.

[Corinne]

That's right. And so after a few years, or, I don't know, many. Many a few decades of having a hunting program that didn't reduce the population enough, the conservancy of the. This island that owns like, 80 of the land on the island has decided to just get rid of the deer.

[Steve Rinella]

Wrigley people.

[Corinne]

That's right.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, at some point in time, they were the chewing gum family.

[Corinne]

Yeah. So they had to go through a permanent process with the state because, again, these are. Because there is. They are deer. Even though they live on private land, they are property of the people in the state. So they had to go through a permitting process, you know, with. With California game of fish to figure this out. But they've done it, and they're moving forward. And they hired.

[Steve Rinella]

No, no, because now. Now with the setup, I need to give my. Why? You're like. So you. You're saying you were interested in it, but the more you thought about it, it's not that many deer. It's not a historic population. It's not native range. It's not a great hunting opportunity. So it. To you, it feels like the. The. The. The hype has become bigger than the issue.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay. What I feel when I look at this is I see. I think what some people do is lost opportunity and a certain irony of the conservancy that holds the land saying, we've tried to control them through hunting. But it doesn't work. So we need to bring in outside sharpshooters to kill them all. And then people just rightfully so, saying you didn't try that. You say you tried it, but you never allowed hunters to try to participate. You never gave hunters a chance to lower the numbers. You blocked them every which way, made it next to impossible, claimed it didn't work. And now you're bringing in outsiders to shoot them all and leave them to rot. I think that is. That's the rub, maybe.

[Corinne]

Oh yeah. 100 and I still think that there's a bunch. There's a bunch of underhanded, deceitful, you know, like lying going on from this conservancy. Like they are not playing. What's the saying? Clean fair pool, clean pool, dirty pool.

[Steve Rinella]

Swimming in a dirty pool, swinging for the fences. Okay, enter. There's a new story.

[Corinne]

Yeah, they've. They hired a company called White Buffalo and White Buffalo had their website pulled up here. A lot of websites.

[Steve Rinella]

Non profit.

[Corinne]

Yeah, I've turned into it. Found out they're a non profit.

[Steve Rinella]

Strange name for a wildlife eradication outfit.

[Corinne]

Yeah, I don't understand where that, where that came from. But yeah, they do work all over the place. Basically controlling animals to help bring back native landscapes. That's kind of. That's like their basic deal when looking at like what they offer for whitetail deer herd management. It's like artificial or not. No, I'm trying to say it. Not AI, but what's. What's the opposite? Like basically contraception. Yeah. They put them on birth control, they sharpshoot them, or they have managed haunts, which I would, I would assume that that means that they sort of like bring in, you know, public hunters, but help them, you know, do these hunts and do them at a, you know, a higher rate to bring populations down. So it looks like they do great work. Their website was really clean and nice and it seems like, you know, they're probably a great hire for this, for this job.

[Randall Williams]

You think?

[Steve Rinella]

So can I.

[Doug]

Can I just interject with the. The significance of the white buffalo. We probably talked about that before on the podcast, right? We heard it from Taylor Keane.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, it's like to the Lakota, spiritually rich animal and plains mythology.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

So there's also Uncle Ted's great white buffalo, which I would say like in Apocalypse now, when he plays that song, you know, in his attack helicopters, when these guys are up in their choppers, maybe they play Uncle Ted's Great White

[Brody]

Buffalo to get Pumped.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know.

[Brody]

There's also a Charles Bronson movie where a white buffalo is kind of like almost like a western horror movie where Charles Bronson is duking it out with a white buffalo that's trying to kill him.

[Steve Rinella]

Is that right?

[Brody]

Strange.

[Steve Rinella]

Maybe. Maybe they were inspired by that movie. They're gonna pull out the old. They're gonna pull out the old Judas deer trick. It's in. It's one of the tricks in their playbook.

[Corinne]

Yeah. After they're done doing all the baiting and shooting, then they. Then they throw out a deer to. With a GPS collar on it to attract.

[Steve Rinella]

It's the dirt, dude. You take a deer and put a collar on him and let him go. And you'd be like, okay, go find your buddies. And then you watch his track and collar and you come in and give him. It's. You know what it's like, man? It's like when the. In Red dawn, dude, when they make that. That kid, you know the kind of. The kids don't fit in good. He goes into town and they make him eat that transmitter and then the ruskies come for him.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

He's like a Judas dude.

[Brody]

This is.

[Doug]

This whole plan looks so aggressive.

[Steve Rinella]

Very, very aggressive.

[Brody]

We'll get to the condor part.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, no, let's get.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Again, it's like.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't admit it. He doesn't care anymore. Why is it 400 bucks a deer?

[Corinne]

No, why.

[Doug]

That's why with it being a non profit organization is very odd. Is that money being fundraised from PE like it's. Who's.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, they figured that they. I think they figured that they're doing like an environmental service just. And on the island. And all in all, I mean, in all fairness, they've had a bunch of plant species become extirpated from the island.

[Corinne]

Yeah. And who am I? I mean, I don't. I'm not in this business. I don't know. We could have like Parker hall or somebody say tell us if 400 per

[Brody]

deer is 800 grand.

[Corinne]

It is expensive, huh?

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know. The dads, I mean, I imagine it's probably like this. You got to get them all and people that have been in that work.

[Corinne]

95 are easy.

[Steve Rinella]

The first 95%, no problem. It's the. It's like the last ones is the problem.

[Corinne]

Yeah. That's when a dude lives on the island for six more months and only hunts at night with, you know, thermals and tries to track down the last couple deer or Whatever.

[Steve Rinella]

But, yeah, he's talked about areas when they've done wild hog work. He's like, yeah, getting a whole bunch of them. No biggie. It's like when there's two hogs left.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Find those. But, like.

[Corinne]

Like, you say that it's aggressive Karim, but what, like, why is it aggressive? Like, they've been hired to do a job.

[Doug]

Oh, right.

[Corinne]

They're gonna go in and put the hammer down and get the job done.

[Doug]

It, like, I guess that's needed. It would have been nice if they would have given more hunters a chance to.

[Corinne]

Yeah, again, like, I don't want to. Like, that's why I'm bored of the stories. Because we can go back to that and talk about the indecencies of this conservancy, which, like, we really don't know that much about. I'd love to, like, if they wanted to come on and, like, explain themselves, it'd be interesting.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, but, like, I'd hear them.

[Corinne]

You know what I mean?

[Steve Rinella]

I'd hear them out for 10 minutes.

[Corinne]

No, but you're saying that is the rough. Is it, like, the way they've handled it all.

[Brody]

But every time there's any kind of these, like, sharpshooter culling operations, hunters get all bent out of shape about it. They're like, why aren't they giving us the chance?

[Steve Rinella]

Because that's what I always wonder.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, I know, but I always say

[Steve Rinella]

that because I'll always wonder.

[Brody]

Yeah, but, like, this is just another example of that to me.

[Steve Rinella]

Listen, man, my panties are in a bunch anytime. Like, like, even with the res. Even with the suburban sharpshoot shooting, when you have a bunch of people live in a community and they all determine that, like, that hunting's bad, they don't want anyone hunting, and they bring in a sharpshooting outfit to start shooting them at night, it just. It always will rub me the wrong way.

[Brody]

I get it. But how many hunters are going to actually jump in there and take care of it?

[Randall Williams]

We'll never know. Rob saying, I guess we'll never know.

[Steve Rinella]

The dude running for gov. The dude running for governor of Iowa hunts them deer.

[Doug]

He'd love to hunt Catalina, dude.

[Steve Rinella]

He hunts deer on spots. Or if the deer takes three steps, it's on the neighbor's place. He's got. He's got. He's got his whole program dialed down. Man shoots Biggins.

[Corinne]

Brody mentioned the. The California Condor project, which. This is a way that this. The. The Catalina Island Conservancy is saying, like, hey, it's going to be okay. We're not going to just leave them to rot. We're going to relocate the deer carcasses over to the mainland and feed condors. When I read that, I go, oh, I wonder if they're going to use, you know, copper or non. Non lead ammunition. Right. And Brody's like, well, we already had a guy right in and said that that's a bunch of BS that they're not like, that's a big cost to freeze. Probably would have to freeze these carcasses and bring them, you know, via.

[Steve Rinella]

I wasn't clear on. I thought they meant to. The condors fly out to Catalina maybe, because.

[Corinne]

True. Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. They're saying no, they're saying, oh, we're gonna freeze them and bring them over to the mainland.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know who makes. Do they make Juicy Fruit gum? I used to chew a lot of that.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, I think that's a Wrigley product.

[Steve Rinella]

They do. They do that.

[Brody]

Lost its flavor. Real.

[Steve Rinella]

It did, man. And I used to chew that. I think their big red product, man. That burn your tongue, dude.

[Brody]

Get a whole pack in there.

[Steve Rinella]

Eventually, taste buds get all inflamed and everything, man. Now they're shooting all these. No, I don't know if they're still tied up. I'm not saying that that big red Juicy Fruit has anything to do with this, man. Clearly, like, we're gonna poison gum and leave it, lay it all out for the deer.

[Corinne]

Well, it still seems like a flawed deal because that town of Avalon has made it so that you can't hunt or discharge a weapon within their perimeter. And they say, like, a whole bunch of deer hang out within those. The town's boundaries. So I don't think they're gonna. This program's not gonna get rid of 100 of the deer on the island.

[Steve Rinella]

I want to talk about a bunch of deer hanging out over there, just waiting.

[Brody]

Oh, yeah, that Judas deer is gonna

[Steve Rinella]

head straight for that deer. That dude's gonna be standing outside the local ice cream parlor.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think for the people that say, well, I really just don't want to see those animals go to waste.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't buy that.

[Corinne]

Yeah, you know, I. I mean, I

[Steve Rinella]

buy it, but I don'. The main motivating factor.

[Corinne]

Right. And. But we all know now we're educated enough to know that if you just, like, shoot a deer and let. Let it lay in the grand scheme of things, does it go to waste because you or I don't consume it?

[Steve Rinella]

It's like nutrient Recycling.

[Corinne]

Totally.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, well, last time Yanni gets to do a Catalina Island.

[Corinne]

No. When they, when the Catalina Island Conservancy comes on here does to chat. I'm. I'll be the first one. Ten good questions.

[Steve Rinella]

You should get a Pulitzer Prize for the coverage, dude.

[Corinne]

I don't.

[Steve Rinella]

You've done a great job of covering the story and, like, analyzing it and stuff, man. Oh, and then like a weird, like, turn, you know what I mean?

[Brody]

He like, you know, imagine if Walter Cronkite came on. He's like, man, I'm not real interested in this, but I'm gonna tell you about.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, I'm not really interested. Cron. He comes on and he's like. He's like, I'm not real interested in this. And I've changed my mind.

[Randall Williams]

I didn't know we were going for Cronkite. Well, it kind of changes my whole approach to this.

[Brody]

I don't know. Pick someone.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

[Steve Rinella]

That was great report, Yanni. I like the emotional parts of you, like, getting tired of the story and like, oh, what's it mean? Anyway? That was great, man. I hope the listeners appreciated that. What else you got?

[Randall Williams]

Me too.

[Steve Rinella]

What else you got?

[Corinne]

Yeah, they're trying to legalize baiting deer in Michigan.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a lot more complicated than that.

[Corinne]

Well, is it? I think that's a pretty fair assessment of what's, what's going on there.

[Steve Rinella]

It's fair assessment, isn't it? You were always able. When I was a boy that we. You just baited, right? Everybody not. Oh, yeah, we baited. And then, and then they put restrictions on baiting.

[Corinne]

They're trying to make it legal again. And basically there's some people for it. There's a lot of public for it. I. I texted a few folks that live in Hunt in Michigan, and these folks are all anti baiting. Oh, they wish it was completely gone, but according to them, they're like, like, whether this goes through or not, they don't think anything is going to change. Because like, we all know in places where you're not allowed to bait, like, let's just say Michigan or where I'm at in Wisconsin, you can go to any, I think any gas station, Walmart, whatever, and there are giant bags of

[Steve Rinella]

corn out front because they do those quantity. Michigan has areas where they do a quantity restriction. You're allowed to put out a certain amount.

[Corinne]

Okay. And in some cases there's a lot of places where you cannot put out

[Steve Rinella]

like a gallon or out what the hell it is. But they limit how much you put down.

[Brody]

Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, it's, you know, it's illegal where I grew up, but, like, that's only during the season, so you can, you know.

[Steve Rinella]

Well, we're sitting in a state right now you can't bait.

[Brody]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Never could bait.

[Corinne]

No. But. Yeah.

[Brody]

We're not talking about the whole state of Michigan.

[Corinne]

Michigan here.

[Steve Rinella]

Lower Peninsula.

[Corinne]

Lower Peninsula.

[Steve Rinella]

So with cwd, you could always bait. And we baited. And I. I actually regret it.

[Brody]

You said that.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. I would have learned a lot more about deer if we didn't bow hunt. I wish we. I wish at a young age I. I would have learned to really hunt deer and hadn't spent that time when I had, like, years and time that I hadn't messed with the bait thing. And I wish I would have just, like, used. I wish I knew that what I knew now. If I knew then what I knew now, I would have hunted totally differently.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Corinne]

Unfortunately, the proponents of the bill are saying that we will have more hunters, we'll have more participation, more retention, more youth getting into it if we allow it.

[Steve Rinella]

Because I can see that.

[Corinne]

It just makes it easier.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, I can see that. So originally around chronic wasting disease and bovine tuberculosis. So disease issues.

[Corinne]

That's why it was outlawed.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And starting in. Since in 2019, the Department of Natural Resources. So the Wildlife management agency in 2019, started putting baiting restrictions in place in the Lower peninsula, citing disease concerns that you're concentrating, you're making super spreader events. Like during COVID when you had a big party and everybody kind of got mad at you, you were doing that. Not out in the woods suckering in all kinds of deer to come in and rub noses. And so their thought was, hey, we're gonna slow down disease spread and get rid of baiting. And that's pissed people off. Still pisses people off. And so now they're kind of going around back on her.

[Corinne]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Talk about that.

[Corinne]

Oh, the fact that. Yeah. So this is. It's. It's. It's very unpopular with the Department of Natural Resources. And they're saying that, yeah, we're not. We're basically not doing this under sound science and that we're. They're just basically voting, you know, just doing political science and politicians are making management decisions by get. Putting this back in.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. What they want to do is they want to. They're looking to prevent the wildlife agency from being able to do a band right.

[Corinne]

All together. And in the future, which I think would be a bad Thing, I know that we all don't agree all the time with what our state wildlife agencies do, but I believe that, for the most part, they're out there trying to do what's best, and we forget that they're trying to balance so many different, you know, entities that have different needs. You know, whether it's the ranchers that are having issues with deer or elk, you know, the people that want more opportunities, the people that want more trophies, you know, people that want, you know, whatever, you know, they're balancing all. All of that social stuff. It's not just wildlife management. So, like, you had to step back and look at it, that it's not just what, you know, what's going on in your little neighborhood and what you want, how you want to be able to bait in your backyard.

[Steve Rinella]

You also have. In this case, you also have two truths kind of battling each other. We covered this a couple years ago where the head of Michigan's wildlife agency had this open letter ahead of deer season, basically saying, almost being like, why can't we get hunters to kill does? We need to kill does. We need to kill does. We can't get hunters to kill does.

[Randall Williams]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

Almost throwing his hands up and they're like, you know, in the most respectful way possible is kind of like, what is wrong with everybody? Our doe harvesters, our populations are going up. Dough harvest is going down. We try to incentivize dough harvest, and people won't kill does. So an argument in favor of the bill is it makes it easier to get those.

[Corinne]

That is an argument.

[Steve Rinella]

But.

[Corinne]

But I think it's an argument. I think it's a little bit of a BS Argument.

[Steve Rinella]

The Farm Bureau, they like. They want to. They like the bait. They like the bait bill. They want bait coming in because they feel like it's gonna help alleviate crop damage.

[Corinne]

If you had a crystal ball up, Brody, you think if they legalize bait just like, across the board, are you gonna. Are you gonna see a higher do?

[Brody]

I certainly think it's like, listen, there's a reason why people bait. It increases your odds. Like.

[Corinne]

No, I understand that, but when we're talking about whether the.

[Brody]

Specifically whether more does.

[Corinne]

Whether the population of hunters that's around these days, like, are they going to shoot more does?

[Steve Rinella]

Like, is. Is it. Is the people most mad about the bait ban, people that just want to shoot tons of does?

[Brody]

I don't know.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't know either. I have. Yeah. Like, I'm looking up road safety, like the old classic road safe. Like, yeah, people are like someone's got to do something about.

[Brody]

I definitely feel like there are areas in this country where like the number of deer a problem and they got to figure out some way to, to knock them down. Down, you know.

[Corinne]

Sure.

[Steve Rinella]

So that's another argument. Arguments in favor of the bill. Road safety. The state has 58. Over 58,000 deer related vehicle crashes. That was in 2024. Meaning the current bait ban is failing to control the population or people aren't shooting them. I, I don't, I don't think you blame that on the bait ban. And then like Yan, he said hunter recruitment, saying that like, if you can put bait out, it's easier and kids are more successful and everybody's gonna have a better time shooting all kinds of deer. Arguments against the bill. Disease spread. Okay. The DNR and the wildlife biologists oppose the bill. Then you get into the science question. Right. Where is, you know, wildlife management people are, are, you know, driven by what they would argue is a scientific understanding of the data and the population and, and that this is coming from social. This is coming. This is coming from like a social end of things. And then the question of fair chase concerns. Some traditional hunting groups argue that baiting diminishes fair chase ethics of the sport. I, I would, that that's not what I would be looking at in making this decision. I wouldn't be looking at that.

[Brody]

Especially if your goal is to kill a bunch more deer.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, I think that the, I think that the relevant, the rel. In my mind, the relevant bits that I'd be looking at is what is the evidence to suggest that bait legitimately and accelerates disease transmission. Like, how true is that? Is that really true? And then would this, Is this really the most quickest, most effective way to bring up dough harvest? That's the things I'd be looking at if I was chief of Michigan.

[Brody]

They need to call that white buffalo company. Send them in there.

[Randall Williams]

Don't give them any ideas.

[Corinne]

Yeah. Have Michigan taxpayers pay 400 bucks a deer.

[Steve Rinella]

They'd be like, the first thing we do is put out a big bait.

[Brody]

Then we put some collars on some other deer.

[Steve Rinella]

I mean, that is. Our two stories aren't talking to each other, dude. Because the eradication service, white buffalo, they say right off, first thing we do, get a bait pipe.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. So.

[Brody]

And a Judas deer.

[Steve Rinella]

Case in point. Yeah. Maybe Michigan should legalize using Judas deer.

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[Steve Rinella]

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[Randall Williams]

week there were a bunch of headlines out there about the overhaul of the Forest Service that was announced by the administration, I believe on, like Tuesday afternoon, there was a press release that went out and this has to do with the structure of the structure and geographic location of the Forest Service, which manages 193 million acres of our public lands. And you can read the press release to get the explanation firsthand there. There's a lot of the coverage out there that sort of gives a broader context to it. And a lot of the headlines are pretty alarmist. They say this is a dismantling things of that nature. And so I read as much as I could and talked to some folks that work in the conservation space to get their read on it.

[Steve Rinella]

But when you've read as much as you could, what is the. What happens? You fall asleep? Nah, I just read as much as you could find.

[Randall Williams]

We all get bored with it, you know. Yeah, I mean, I read like the. Most of the articles that people were sharing.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay.

[Randall Williams]

And so the, the, the announcement describes this as a sweeping restructuring of the agency to move leadership closer to the forests and communities it serves. And so there's a couple points to this that I'm going to hit on and kind of contextualize each one. The first is that they're going to move the, the headquarters from D.C. to Utah. And so you.

[Steve Rinella]

Interesting choice.

[Brody]

Yeah, that. That's the one.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. That, that raised a lot of eyebrows, I think just given Utah's history with public land. And the, the press release has this quot of Utah saying, you know, we're excited about this great news because this

[Steve Rinella]

way they're closer, we can strangle them more easily.

[Randall Williams]

And I think like, so one, like the bigger history is, I guess there are, and this is sort of from behind the scenes, folks. Like, there are more and more Forest Service personnel that are gravitating towards D.C. like the D.C. footprint of the agency has grown, but like there's a good reason to have the headquarters in D.C. because the chief of the Forest Service and the deputy chiefs of the Forest Service work with the administration and work with Congress. Like their job is to be held accountable by the administration, Congress for what they're doing. And then their job is also to like, inform the federal government of what's going on with the agency. So like, like to move the, the, the head of the organization away from D.C. i, I, I don't know if it's fair to say that it makes it less relevant, but it makes it harder for the people at the top to be effective in their jobs. So there's going to have to be a lot of back and forth.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Randall Williams]

And so that's, that's sort of the first thing is like moving the, moving the, the agency's headquarters to Utah.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh man. The other that, that I just kind of, I just want to meditate on that for a minute. It, that's a weird one to me because you have the, the, the legislators.

[Randall Williams]

Right.

[Steve Rinella]

In that state. The, their, their state representatives just have a, more than any other state have just a hostile relationship to public lands.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Brody]

It seems intentional. They could have picked anywhere. Like.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Randall Williams]

And so the other, the other be

[Steve Rinella]

like if the golfing, like the golf association was like, we're going to move our headquarters to Steve's house.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. That would raise eyebrows.

[Steve Rinella]

You don't like golf. They'd be like, that's the point.

[Randall Williams]

The next, like the next sort of biggest headline out there is that they're, they're closing all the regional offices. So there, right now there's nine regional offices that oversee all the forests and grasslands across the country. And they're going to move to a state based model model. So there's going to be 15 state directors. Some of those states, I got confused.

[Steve Rinella]

Can you back. How is it, Remind me what it was before.

[Randall Williams]

So they're regions. There's like region one region.

[Steve Rinella]

How many were there?

[Randall Williams]

There were nine.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, sorry.

[Randall Williams]

So they're going to 15 state directors. Some of those oversee multiple states. And this like the headline is that the regional offices, all the regional offices are being closed. But what's really happening is it's transitioning to a model that more closely resembles like the BLM has state directors. And so this is sort of more of a restructuring. Although for the people in those regional offices who may have to move or lose their jobs, like there is an impact on the ground. But it's not like all of that infrastructure is being dissolved. It's transitioning to a state director model, which. Which folks in the conservation space say works well for the blm, so.

[Steve Rinella]

And presumably people assigned at the regional level will. Will be assigned at the state level.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, I mean, that's.

[Steve Rinella]

There'd be a re. There'd be like a reshuffling.

[Randall Williams]

That's where it gets hard, like shuffling. And this is something I'm going to touch on later on is like, it gets hard to really understand the scope of the personnel changes that'll take place. Like, there's probably going to be a lot of turnover and. And loss of institutional knowledge and. And have career, you know, career people sort of. Their paths take a left or right turn here. I don't know that, like, we can even find that out at this point. How it's gonna affect, like, I would be doubtful if there's just a one to one, like you go to a different desk, but it's hard to say at that point. And then the last one, I think is pretty significant. And they've announced that they're gonna consolidate all of the research that they do into a single Forest Service research organization in Fort Collins. So they're going to close 57 of 77 research stations across the country. Four in Michigan are closing, five in Mississippi. And this, like, there's. I don't really know how to explain this in a way that, like, do

[Steve Rinella]

they have their own Forest Service research stations that sit outside of, like. Like USDA research stations? They must.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

This is. This is Forest Service specific.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah. And. And like, so not all of them are being closed. Like, I think that in the. In the public communications, they've tried to emphasize that, like, some, like a lot of the fire stuff will. Will be less affected than everything else. But, like, there's a real question about how do you study, like, southern pine forests from Fort Collins efficiently? And then the other thing is that, like, each one of these research stations, a lot of them, anyway, way. Are affiliated with, like, a research institution, like a university. And so they rely on that lab space. So you can't just close 60. You can't close, like, three quarters of the research stations out there, move all that to Colorado and not lose something.

[Steve Rinella]

Right.

[Randall Williams]

And it just seems like that seems like more of a. Like a defanging or a squeezing of, like, the Forest Service's research capabilities.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Randall Williams]

And. And that, I don't really know, like, how you explain that. That that is being beneficial to the Forest Service.

[Steve Rinella]

I don't think they're trying to make it. I'm sure they're probably. They're gonna probably be cute.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And act like this is for the betterment of the agency. But that's silly. Right? This is to. This is to cripple, hamstring them.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Diminish. Lessen the impact of the agency.

[Brody]

Is this right?

[Steve Rinella]

I mean, like.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Because the architects. The architects aren't like, how do we make the Forest Service bigger and better? Right.

[Randall Williams]

I mean, I think there's, like, I. I think there's. That's how the critics are reading this, as, like, this is a very deliberate attempt to, like, destroy it. And that's.

[Steve Rinella]

I'm not using the word destroy. Yeah, But.

[Randall Williams]

But, like.

[Steve Rinella]

Like, diminish.

[Randall Williams]

Diminish it.

[Steve Rinella]

Diminish its impact. No, I don't think. No, no. Not using the word destroy. Right, right.

[Randall Williams]

But, like, I think that. I think there's also this to, like, give them some sort of benefit of the doubt. Like, there's this ideological thing that, like, they need to get out of D.C. and be in the west. And, like, we have too big of a footprint. And so it might not be, like, necessarily like a. It might be a more principled things. If you believe that the Forest Service is doing too much science out there. I'm don't. I'm not in that camp, but. So this went through public comment period, 47,000 emails, 14,000 specifically addressed the restructuring. More than 80% of those comments opposed it, and of the remainder, more of those were neutral than supported it. So, like, the support in the public comment period for this stuff is like. Like 5%, something like that. So it was overwhelmingly opposed. The tribes have spoken out in opposition. A lot of conservation groups and a lot of Forest Service former Forest Service leadership has spoken out. And the message there is like, basically, nobody's asking for this internally. Nobody necessarily wants this. There's been no real analysis of the cost or the savings of this. And they did this with the BLM in the first Trump administration. They moved the agency headquarters to Grand Junction. It was way more expensive than they anticipated. And a lot of the people ended up just, like, either taking early retirement or quitting. Only 41 of the 328bl employees that they wanted to move out to Grand Junction actually did it. And then the Biden administration moved. They didn't move everybody back. They. They determined that, yeah, there are some jobs, I guess, that would be better suited to be out west and have more close connection with, like, the career field staff. But they did move the leadership back because it was just not working. So this, I mean, and this is all in the context of huge cuts to the Forest Service operations budget, huge cuts to the capital improvement and maintenance budgets. And the Forest Service is down already 25% in terms of people like human resources, and they have a hiring freeze in place with a lot of key jobs that are unfilled. So like, it just adds to this broader confusion and, and sapping of morale, I think. So I guess like in talking to people, I was kind of in the. I was kind of, of more aligned with the idea that this was a dismantling, you know, And I guess I still don't. I wouldn't repudiate that view. I talked to a lot of people that sort of talked me back from the edge a little bit. They said there's still a lot of inexplicable things in here and things that aren't going to be workable and they'll have to be reversed. But what was pointed out to me, and this is like, like my takeaway is there are a lot of other things. Like this is a big splashy headline. There's a lot of other things going on right now, like the roadless rule repeal that are going to be far more impactful on the future of our national forest. Like there's, there's a pile of stuff right now that's happening that will ultimately undermine the, the Forest Service system as we know it. And this is kind of, of adding to that. But they're saying, and not to minimize like the impact on employees and, and all the chaos and confusion that's happening. But like ultimately it's not like a five alarm fire, but it's also just like, do we need to do this? And is doing this, are we taking away from other important work? You know, so I don't know. It's not, not, it's not encouraging. I was, I will say, like my, my takeaway from it. I was a little more heartened after talking to like more experienced and knowledgeable people. But it's still just like a lot. It's just like a big pile of shit thrown at the wall to see what sticks, you know?

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And you can read more about that@theme eater.com Feds announced major restructuring and relocation of US Forest Service.

[Steve Rinella]

Good job, Randall.

[Randall Williams]

Thank you.

[Steve Rinella]

Thanks.

[Randall Williams]

That's my first one.

[Corinne]

I was gonna ask.

[Brody]

All right then. I always get screwed.

[Steve Rinella]

It just, it just happened the other day. Did you say that lions always get screwed?

[Brody]

No, I always.

[Steve Rinella]

Okay, go do your report.

[Brody]

So we're gonna do it if you want.

[Steve Rinella]

I just feel like we've been, we've been running. People are gonna have, they're go. They gotta learn.

[Brody]

We're gonna do it it then we're just going to keep pushing it back and you already said we were doing it.

[Steve Rinella]

I was going to have Phil beep it all out.

[Brody]

Alaska. Alaska's opening a mountain lion season. Some of you might be asking why? Because they don't have any mountain lions. Mountain lions are found most in the largest numbers in the western U.S. and southwestern Canada. But they're most widely distributed large mammal in the western hemisphere all the way from the Yukon down to the southern Andes and Chile. But historically they're not native to Alaska. And since 1989 there's only been five documented mountain lion observations all in Southeast Alaska. Four of those were in Game Management Unit 3, which includes Wrangell and Petersburg. There have also been some unconfirmed tracks and sightings, mostly originally originating in the Wrangell area. And researchers believe that these few mountain lions that have shown up are dispersed from mainland British Columbia.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah, dude trapped one. A dude shot one. They've had four dead bodies.

[Brody]

So yeah, most recently Alaska wildlife troopers were notified in on June 3, 2024 that one had been shot and killed on the south end of Wrangell Island. Before that it was 26 years. You got to go back 26 years from 2024?

[Steve Rinella]

No, cuz the wolf trapper caught one in a snare on Kuyu Island.

[Brody]

Well, is that not true? This says 26 years in. In 1998, a wrangle trapper caught a

[Steve Rinella]

mountain lion that was that long ago.

[Brody]

And a wolf trap on Cooper off Kupernov Kranov Island. And then a decade before that, 1989, one was shot near Wrangel. So it's all kind of in the same area where they're showing up.

[Steve Rinella]

Up. Okay.

[Brody]

Anyway, so it might seem strange that Alaska now has a mountain season, but the the southeast Alaska Board of Game recently like formally approved a new and limited hunting and trapping season.

[Corinne]

Did you say unlimited or limited?

[Brody]

Well, the, the hunting season is limited. It'll run August 1st to June 15th with a bag limit of one big season.

[Steve Rinella]

Listen, wait one animal break that to your wife. Honestly, I'm gonna be hunting pretty hard this season.

[Brody]

For the hunting season it's males only. But there's also a trapping season in Units 1, 3, 4 and 5, which will run Nov. 15 through March 31. Obviously trappers can't decide whether they're catching a male or a female. So they're not going to be held to that male, only regulation. So, you know, like I, I. Steve's like, why, why are they doing. I'm like, well, I think they're just trying to get ahead of it. I'm sure Steve will say more on that. But the, the reason the board gave is they're trying to like regulate a small but growing predator population rather than have an animal that they're like, by regulation, they're not able to manage it, you know, through hunting and traps, trapping.

[Steve Rinella]

What I find interesting about this story is they feel that they're coming down the Stickeen River.

[Brody]

Right. That's it said they're falling river drainage.

[Steve Rinella]

I read this analysis. It was a handful of river systems that the headwaters of the river systems are glaciated or deer free. And kind of the best approach be coming out of British Columbia. You could be into, you could be into good deer countries and tip over into the upper sticking and then follow the sticking down and eventually get on the coastal areas and they're starting to pick off. Sick of black tails on the coastal areas.

[Brody]

Interestingly, all of these, what is it? Five that have shown up in this area. All male.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody]

So which makes sense with that, like dispersed.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. Dispersing. There's a similar thing where mule deer for the first, you know, in recent years, mule deer have been showing up in Tokala, coming in along the, the, the highway there, the following. The highway corridor, development along the highway corridor, clearing along the highway corridor. And they don't want the deer coming in right now in that case, they don't want the deer coming in because think about the implications of something like, like disease issues. So cervid diseases coming in on this new animal showing up. And so if you see a meal deer, you can kill it. I think maybe you got to have a valid license. But basically they like, they shoot on site kind of. Yeah. And acknowledging that there, it's like if you see a meal deer, you can kill the familiar. So with the lion thing, I see it like I understand leaving it that I understand the need to say like they're here.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Because clearly they're there. You could also say, hey, we're recognizing they're here. The state is going to put in a management policy that, that lions are here. We're accepting their. When you look in our regulations, you'll see lions are here. We may someday decide to have a season. But the state agency saying, yes, we accept. We have A population of mountain lions. There's a pathway to a mountain lion season down the road. But at this point in time there's so few, they're coming in naturally, they're protected. Or the state's perspective. It could be this. It's like they're coming in because things are getting warmer and there's less snow and different temperatures. And deer, whitetail deer are moving north, mule deer are moving north and west. And a lot of this stuff is like human caused. And they might be like, we don't want mountain lions.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

We already got wolves, black bears, grizzly bears, lynx. I feel like that, like we don't need a new cat species coming in because of changing environments and we don't want them. And so rather than just saying we don't want them, we'll say that they're basically open.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

And if you get one, you're not in trouble.

[Brody]

I feel like that there's got to be. That's part of it. Especially in Alaska where they're, they work pretty hard to maintain their big game populations for the use of the people.

[Steve Rinella]

Yes.

[Brody]

And this could present potentially a problem for the blacktail.

[Steve Rinella]

More, not more. I have as much respect and faith in Alaska Department of Fish and Game. This is going to blow. This is going to piss people off because they have all kinds of reasons why not. But so I'm choosing my words carefully. I have as much respect for the integrity and aim of Alaska Department of Fish and Game as I do for any state agency in terms of looking at how do we protect wildlife resources, recognizing the importance of human use and recognize the importance of traditional use practices. They're pretty spot on. Yeah. Relative to any other agency. So I tend to look at, if they do it, I tend to go like, you guys are level headed wildlife managers. I don't feel like you've been like infiltrated by animal rights activists or something. Like you're level headed wildlife managers. And I kind of, you know, at this point I'll be like, I, I trust your opinion.

[Brody]

Yeah. And it's look, I mean mountain lions are doing pretty well throughout a lot of their range. This isn't, I think, going to change that. You know, I don't think you can look at them as an invasive species. They're walking in there on their own, right?

[Steve Rinella]

Walking.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

They're walking in on their own two feet. So four

[Corinne]

regulated then. Like we're doing this because we don't want another species.

[Steve Rinella]

You mean the fact that it's closed for a month and a half?

[Corinne]

Yeah. I mean, like, why not just have that, oh, you know, right to shoot policy like they do on the mule?

[Brody]

Because I think classifying them as a game animal animal, like, gives them certain management.

[Corinne]

But why not do that with those mule deer and toque.

[Steve Rinella]

It's a great question.

[Corinne]

What's the difference?

[Steve Rinella]

I guess we'd have to have someone. Hopefully we can get. Find someone to answer those questions for us. I want to invite a. I want to invite a Correction.

[Brody]

Does that mean you're gonna correct me?

[Steve Rinella]

I am. I am virtually certain that more recently than what you're saying, like, pretty recently, a dude hooked one in a wolf snare there on Kuyu Island.

[Brian Harmon]

It's.

[Brody]

You're probably right. I'm just going, what are they doing

[Steve Rinella]

on those islands, though, man? Those dudes are walking like they're like dispersing, heading way down that thing and then swimming, man. Because they're not finding any females.

[Brody]

They're not crossing ice. Right.

[Steve Rinella]

They're not finding females.

[Brody]

When those lines showed up on Flathead island here in Montana, like, at least ice was a possibility there.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. And they're like, smelling.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Big horns.

[Corinne]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Smelling dumb big horns. Tame big horns.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah. That's a good question, man. It's a good question. Prince of Wales doesn't have them yet. There's no. See, you can't. If you see one on Prince Wales, you can't shoot or I don't know what.

[Brody]

Well, it depends.

[Steve Rinella]

What. They don't have season.

[Brody]

They gave the regions there.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah.

[Brody]

But I think the hunting season, it's just the trapping season that's limited to certain regions.

[Steve Rinella]

It's. When it's wolf season, it's trapped.

[Brody]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

When it's. They're also protecting a wolf. You're also protecting a wolf trapper who accidentally hooks a cough.

[Randall Williams]

Yeah.

[Steve Rinella]

That if he hooks a cougar, he's not in trouble, which is cool.

[Brody]

Yep.

[Steve Rinella]

So someday Yanni's great grandson will be up there with Mingus's great, great, great, great, great, great grandson in a wetsuit.

[Corinne]

Tree minuses lineage stops with him.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh, he's missing his testicles, isn't he?

[Corinne]

You can get him cloned.

[Brody]

They do that these days.

[Corinne]

You're right. I could get him cloned. Wound.

[Doug]

I got one news thing to end with.

[Steve Rinella]

Please.

[Doug]

What's the biggest crappie that any of you have caught?

[Steve Rinella]

Don't know. 15, 16 inches. Not huge or like pounds down their way.

[Corinne]

Less than a pound for me.

[Doug]

Two. Okay.

[Brody]

I don't know.

[Doug]

Super close.

[Brody]

I think that's a big one.

[Doug]

So at the lake of the Ozarks the other weekend. This is like so fun to find out about. It was the second annual big Crappie channel challenge.

[Steve Rinella]

What was the biggest crappie in the big crappie challenge?

[Doug]

2.37 pounds. Can you get inches Dave? No. I'll have to look for that. He won $50,000. They take crappy $50,000. We gotta enter next next year. Let me see.

[Corinne]

But. But pretty good.

[Brody]

A lot cheaper than going after a billfish and spending 50 grand on gas.

[Steve Rinella]

Yeah well Mercer line got 144 bucks playing golf. I'd rather win $50,000 catching crappies.

[Brody]

Oh yeah.

[Doug]

16 in long.

[Steve Rinella]

Oh did I say 15? 16. I'd like to take that back.

[Brody]

That's what you call a slab kin call a big slab.

[Steve Rinella]

Ask me again. 1112 inches. Yeah I just kind of caught myself in a lie there.

[Randall Williams]

I get a dozen email was I'd like to offer a correction for Steve.

[Steve Rinella]

There's no way Steve caught a spec. I haven't caught a speck that big. No, I was lying Paper mouse. Everybody, thanks a lot for joining.

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[Steve Rinella]

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