Ep. 866: The Boundary Waters Tragedy, Oklahoma CWD, and Mutilated Paddlefish

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast — Ep. 866: The Boundary Waters Tragedy, Oklahoma CWD, and Mutilated Paddlefish

Date: April 23, 2026
Host: Steven Rinella
Guests: Dr. Randall Williams, Dr. Jordan Sillers, Spencer Newhart, Brody Henderson, others

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Episode Overview

This news-packed episode explores crucial topics facing hunters, anglers, and conservationists across the U.S., delivering equal parts hard-hitting discussion, irreverent humor, and in-depth perspective. Central themes include the political and ecological fallout over a proposed copper mine near the Boundary Waters, controversial deer release programs in Oklahoma, troubling mutilations of paddlefish in Missouri, and a range of listener questions and wildlife debates. The crew also digresses into their own recent turkey hunting misadventures, the ethics of hunting tactics, and the beauty of meteor showers.
Tone: Conversational, opinionated, irreverent — with regular injections of expert insight and humor.

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Table of Contents

• Recent Hunts and Turkey Hunting Stories (01:17–12:29)
• Corrections of the Week (17:03–29:00)
• Listener Emails: Unusual Burial Wishes & Hunter Etiquette Dilemmas (32:14–46:28)
• KEY TOPIC: Boundary Waters Mining Controversy (46:28–62:04)
• KEY TOPIC: Oklahoma CWD and the Release of Captive Deer (63:57–80:05)
• Wisconsin Youth Turkey Accident & Age for Introduction (80:11–92:47)
• KEY TOPIC: Mutilated Paddlefish in Missouri (92:49–97:01)
• SEGUE: Meteor Showers and Citizen Science (97:01–104:22)

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Recent Hunts and Turkey Hunting Stories (01:17–12:29)

• Steven and Yanni share tales from a phenomenal turkey hunt in Illinois, involving raffle winners and a feast of wild foods.
• Notable food highlights: smoked king salmon, spot prawns, razor clams, and velveted mule deer.
• The story of Andy’s turkey misses leads to a teaching moment about diagnosing shooting errors.
  • Notable Quote (09:50, Brody Henderson):
    "Usually, if someone has a real bad flinch…they're pushing the barrel down, and that's why you miss low…he was sort of preloading, countering the recoil, and before he got the trigger to break, his gun was…two feet low."
• Reflects on the humane aspects of turkey hunting regulations, such as 1 p.m. cut-offs.
• Light-hearted commentary on hunt etiquette and hunter self-doubt.

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Corrections of the Week (17:03–29:00)

• Listeners write in with factual corrections or further detail concerning previous show topics.
  • Tsavo Man-Eaters: Actual number of humans eaten by the infamous lions closer to 40, not 140.
    • Randall Williams (21:45):
      "You could see, like, month by month, how much more…of their diet was humans…one of the lions peaked at…30%."
  • Suppressors & Hearing Loss Lawsuit: Legal expert explains why you can't sue the government for hearing loss.
    • Notable Quote (24:02, Reading listener email):
      "I’m writing this with institutional knowledge of the legal world and would hate to see someone waste their money or time exploring such a farce."
  • Ballistician writes in: debunks the possibility of "quiet gunpowder" and explains firearms noise physics.
    • Highlight:
      Gunshot noise comes from gas expansion and projectile sonic cracks; only a suppressor can meaningfully reduce loudness.
• Panel votes on the best correction, awarding a trail camera as a prize.

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Listener Emails: Unusual Burial Wishes & Hunter Etiquette Dilemmas (32:14–46:28)

• Burial Ideas:
  • A listener wants their cremated remains mixed into bear bait so their body is eaten by a bear.
    • Panel debates the logistics and ethics; raccoons and other scavengers get an honorable mention.
    • Jordan Sillers (34:31):
      "I talked to a guy... their dogs... smelled bear and coyote scat and signaled because they could smell human inside... it had gone through the digestive tract."
• Hunter Etiquette Controversy:
  • A listener describes a neighbor parking a truck in public land access to create the illusion of hunting pressure and keep others out.
  • The panel debates whether this is immoral, clever, or just “a move.”
    • Randall Williams (43:28):
      "I do think it’s immoral…I don’t like messing with other people’s hunts. I do my business; you do yours."

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KEY TOPIC: Boundary Waters Mining Controversy (46:28–62:04)

Background:

• Senate Republicans voted to repeal a 20-year moratorium on a copper sulfide mine upstream of the Boundary Waters (Superior National Forest, MN).
• Overwhelming public opposition:
  • 70% of Minnesotans oppose the mine
  • Dozens of conservation groups voiced opposition.

Main Points:

• Political maneuvering:
  • Congressional Review Act used to block the moratorium; it can't be easily reinstated.
  • Deep connections between the mining company (Antofagasta, Chile), Trump administration officials, and high-level lobbying.
  • Lobbyists and politicians receiving significant compensation.
• Environmental Consequences:
  • Acid-producing rock could irreparably harm Boundary Waters; no similar mine in the U.S. has avoided pollution.
  • Chilean company involved recently cited for water violations at home.
• Conservation Frustrations:
  • Despite bipartisan conservation ideals, the vote was split on party lines, with Republicans siding against conservation.
  • The show laments politicians' lack of integrity on public lands.
    • Steven Rinella (60:35):
      "So many representatives on the Republican side…signaled that they wanted to do the right thing and then ultimately admitted that they couldn’t, which is like, you know…chicken shits."
  • Panel encourages continued public advocacy and holding politicians accountable.
    • Spencer Newman (61:44):
      "This was an open book test…the answer was so obvious…you failed spectacularly."

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KEY TOPIC: Oklahoma CWD and the Release of Captive Deer (63:57–80:05)

Background:

• Oklahoma passes (2024) and implements the "Chronic Wasting Disease Genetic Improvement Act."
  • Aimed at releasing domestically bred, "CWD-durable" deer into the wild to improve herd genetics.
  • No pre-release CWD testing of these deer.

Main Points:

• Science & Ethics:
  • The “durable” gene doesn’t confer immunity, only some resistance.
  • Leading biologists and all major wildlife organizations (except deer breeders) oppose the plan.
  • Modeling shows you’d need to release 75,000 deer per year to make a genetic impact.
• Industry Interests:
  • Law enables breeders to sell captive-bred deer to any landowner, opening a lucrative new market.
• Skepticism & Critique:
  • Many proponents used to claim "CWD is a hoax"—now they are selling the supposed fix.
    • Rinella (73:47):
      "It’s a hoax, but here’s the solution…it’s like, is it a hoax or does this fix this, or is this self-serving?"
  • Compares to the romantic symbolism of wild deer—bred deer miss the point.
• Potential for Rollback:
  • Recent legislative developments indicate decreasing support; repeal is possible.

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Wisconsin Youth Turkey Accident & Age for Introduction (80:11–92:47)

• Detailed discussion of a hunting accident involving a 3-year-old and a 12-gauge shotgun in Wisconsin.
  • General consensus: a 3-year-old could not responsibly handle or fire such a gun; more likely the mentor was responsible.
    • Rinella (88:21):
      "They will have no recollection…I think after this incident, you’d have to just say for the record here, I was in charge. I was wielding that shotgun."
• Broader talk: proper age for introducing children to hunting (hosts’ guideline is 8 for turkeys, 10 for deer in Montana), and wariness about pushing too soon.

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KEY TOPIC: Mutilated Paddlefish in Missouri (92:49–97:01)

• Multiple paddlefish in Lake of the Ozarks discovered alive with profane messages, wounds, and mutilated snouts—apparent retaliation against fisheries regulations.
• Community and law enforcement outcry; reward exceeds $15,000 for conviction.
  • Rinella (94:58):
    "If you’re writing ‘F U MDC’…that’s not possibly motivated by animosity. They’re mad about the regulatory structure."
• Panel expresses disgust and concern about the negative public perception toward hunters/anglers.

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SEGUE: Meteor Showers and Citizen Science (97:01–104:22)

• Spencer gives a lively, educational report on the Lyrids meteor shower and how listeners can participate in citizen science by reporting sightings to the American Meteor Society.
• Historical accounts and how-to tips for watching and reporting shooting stars.
  • Memorable Moment:
    Spencer himself submitted a fireball report after seeing a spectacular meteor while in his hot tub at 4:30am.
    • Spencer (103:00):
      "I spend a lot of time outside at night. This was the brightest meteor I’ve ever seen."
• The hosts encourage getting kids out to watch, but balance it with the reality of tired, cranky mornings.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the boundary waters mining vote:
  • "So many representatives...signaled they wanted to do the right thing and then ultimately admitted they couldn’t…chicken shits." (Rinella, 60:35)
  • "This was an open book test…you failed spectacularly." (Spencer, 61:44)
• On the Oklahoma deer breeders’ program:
  • "It's so funny…one minute, it's a hoax, and the next minute…‘but wait a minute, it is a problem, and guess who's the solution—it's me’." (Rinella, 73:47)
• On hunter etiquette:
  • "I do think it’s immoral… I don’t like messing with other people’s hunts." (Randall Williams, 43:28)
• On introducing children to hunting:
  • "They will have no recollection… I was wielding that shotgun. This should not, this is not a conversation about mentored hunting." (Rinella, 88:21)
• On paddlefish mutilations:
  • "It’s gross…and whenever something like this…happens, I worry about the perception of hunters." (Phil, 95:41)

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Conclusion

This episode encapsulates what makes the MeatEater news show a compelling listen: a fusion of straight-shooting conservation journalism, lived experience, and critical debate—always served with wit and a human touch. The boundary waters mining debacle and Oklahoma’s deer release program anchor the show in current, deeply divisive issues, while side-stories (from turkey mishaps to meteor showers) showcase the richness, humor, and occasional absurdity of life outdoors.

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For more resources and links mentioned in the show (raffle tickets, new seasons of "Blood Trail," or tools for citizen science), visit MeatEater's website or podcast description.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Boom.

[A]

This week on the news show, we're talking about Senate Republicans giving a big old thumbs up to a toxic copper sulfide mine just outside of the Boundary Waters Wilderness on the Superior National Forest. Oklahoma starts letting deer breeders cut their pet deer loose in the wild, thinking it'll somehow help genetics. Despite any reason to think so, paddlefish anglers in Missouri are practicing, catch, mutilate and release fishing. I just made that up. Spencer's interested in a meteor shower, which is cool.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And Steve bitches even more about Colorado's asinine animal rights movement. Plus a lot more. Joined today by Dr. Randall Williams. Jordan Sillers is here from Blood Trails

[D]

podcast and many other things, Dr. Jordan Sillers.

[A]

Sorry, Dr. Jordan.

[C]

That's fine. I'm on the wrong side of the table.

[E]

It's fine. No, it's fine.

[D]

I'm a big credentialist, you know.

[A]

Dr. Jordan Sillers is here. Do you have the advanced degrees?

[C]

Bachelor's. Spencer.

[A]

Yeah. B.A. spencer. New Harth. The Abraham Ged Yan is barely BG. B.A. brody Henderson, you did a great job

[F]

reading that intro, but I'm curious as to whether you mistakenly said Steve or you're now referring to yourself as Steve in the third person. Like that's a thing now.

[A]

No, it's not, because it's. I was just trying to keep it the format.

[C]

Steve's just being a voice of God.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, picture that you're at home.

[D]

He dissociates.

[A]

For the introductory talk, I pitch more about Colorado's okay anti Fur band.

[F]

When you're talking to your wife, you're not like, Steve needs the cleanest room.

[A]

No, no. I'm going to. About the Colorado's fur band.

[F]

Okay.

[A]

And there's a bunch of just. It's. It. Yeah. I'm just going to go off on it for a while. Like an hour.

[F]

I want to hear it.

[B]

Yanni, Steven and I just returned from Illinois. I just did a roast episode. I was watching the edit and I said that the Montesana State University Bobcats pounded the Illinois Whoever.

[A]

You put the S on there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, for whatever reason growing up, like, I just said that a lot. And it was later in life when I was finally corrected and it's still, it's just a hard habit to break for me. Anyways, we were in Illinois hunting turkeys with the winners, actually not the winner. We hunted with the brothers in law of the winner of last year's trc.

[A]

Very convoluted. He had a baby and couldn't make it.

[B]

Yeah. Or was his wife was about to have a baby and couldn't be gone. And so he sent his two brothers in law, which was very nice of him. And I felt like, what a great thing for all three of those brothers to be so lucky to marry into that group of people and be like, oh, you're my new brother in law and oh, you like to hunt a lot. I mean, not everybody gets that.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyways, amazing hunt. Quite possibly the best day of eastern turkey hunting I've experienced. Would you say yours was equally as good?

[A]

We had a hell of a day. One day. Very interesting day. Yeah, very interesting day.

[B]

Lots of birds playing ball, as we like to say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Made me feel like a real expert turkey caller. Are we going to go into talking about any of the details of the

[F]

hunting or you get any of those like 30 pounders?

[A]

No, they weren't that huge.

[B]

Know. No, they're big, but they were, you know, we had a bunch of scales that didn't have batteries in them and so it's hard to weigh them.

[A]

I feel like I had a lifetime of turkey experiences in one day. Probably the best. You know, like, you know, turkeys like to strut on railroad tracks. So there's this group of turkeys and this place is like, it's nothing but railroad tracks. It's like railroad tracks. Cuz we're hunting along a valley and the tracks go down the valley. Trains are a major, major part of hunting here. Turkey strutting on the tracks and it leads to the question like, what do they do when the train comes? So like, you get all excited thinking the train is going to come and they're going to go flying way off. You know, when the train comes, they step out of the way. I mean, they step out of the way, the train going by and they're like. Like, unless they just go down the embankment and stand there.

[B]

These aren't slow ass Montana trains like the one I deal with almost on a daily basis that you feel like you could just about run next to and grab the. The ladder and jump onto the. Like I stepped out of the way for a train. And when I was hunting with Andy, we took a video. I mean, that sucker was humming like, like a solid 60 miles an hour. Just like the cars are just like half a second, you know.

[F]

You know how you've talked about flies seeing a hand coming at them? Maybe the turkeys.

[A]

It's like they're so fat y. They're so fast. It seems slow to them. A lot of turkey hunt experiences.

[B]

A lot of turkey hunting. Yeah, it was. It was cool. They played ball. But we just want to give everybody a heads up that we're going to have the time period when you can buy raffle tickets for next year, for next year's for the 2027 hunt. And I believe we're working on securing the same form.

[A]

I think that if he's up for it. And he said, let me know if you want to do this again. If that host is up for it, that will be the home. Yep. Both of the winners got their birds.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Fairly quickly, they both. My guy got his first ever turkey. My buddy Andy came out and chefed. Chefed for it.

[B]

It was amazing.

[F]

That right there makes it worth it.

[A]

Phenomenal food.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, we had smoked king salmon, mule deer. We had spot prawns from Alaska. We had like mule deer kill. Basa, our host one night brought over rib eyes. We had razor clams.

[B]

He did that thing with the. We talked about this before on a show where you velvet the meat with the baking soda, you know. And then he deep fried it and did like a Asiany kind of a dish. So good.

[D]

And I wonder if we could sell more tickets to the raffle if it was like you guys and then more of us also come along.

[F]

I think so.

[A]

Yeah. But I don't know that it's. It's. I don't know. It's not an infinite turkey spot.

[F]

Did and get to hunt.

[A]

Well, that we should probably did Andy hunt and good. That's.

[B]

Listen, I actually.

[A]

You want to Hear, like, a long story, but we gotta move on.

[B]

No, no, because it has a. This is. There's something to be learned from Andy's story, and this is what it is. I'll tell you that first, and then you tell me if we should tell the story. He basically missed a bunch of turkeys, and we can just say. Say it. That's it. I can tell you about all the hunts.

[C]

How many is a bunch?

[B]

He missed three different turkeys.

[A]

Are we talking, like, missed opportunities, missed

[B]

shots, and the missed opportunity.

[A]

Great. I wasn't friends with him. I've been friends with him since we were, like, in school.

[F]

Oh, I'm looking forward to hearing his version at the shack this summer.

[B]

He's still in that place of turkey hunting when that gobbler comes over the ridge, and there's his head, and all you can see is his head. And you have two seconds, maybe three, to kill him. He's not processing all of that fast enough to go. There he is. Bang. And kill him. He goes, oh, okay, turkey. Okay, one more step, and then I'll pull it. And then the turkey's gone, you know? But here's the deal. After all of that, we get back, we're rushing. It's the last morning. We got to get to the airport. And I'm like, we got to shoot this gun, because he's shooting my gun. And I'm going to shoot the gun because I want to see if my gun's off. So I set up a target 30 yards, pull the trigger, smoke it.

[F]

It's got a red dot on it.

[B]

Yeah, red dot. And so I got this box that I unfolded. So it's super long. I just drew a bunch of black circles on it. And the way I put up against the tree, One is, like, 30 inches off the ground, and the other black circles, like, at level. I said, all right, sit down. Shoot that top. Top circle. He shoots it. The whole pattern's on the bottom circle, like, a. Like, at least 2ft low. And I didn't have him repeat it because he's shooting ts my tss ammo at 12 bucks every time he pulls the trigger.

[C]

And.

[B]

But the best I can figure, you guys can, you know, give me your opinion on this, but I know that with a pistol, when I start missing the target, you know, what I'm doing is I'm pushing into that gun, and I'm missing low because I'm, like, anticipating the recoil. So I'm pushing the gun and the pushing the barrel down, and that's why you miss Low. Because usually like if someone that has a real bad flinch or a jerk, right, they're like pulling the gun left or right. Like a righty usually is going to jerk it right. Lefty jerks it left or maybe up a little bit. But I feel like here he was sort of preloading, countering the recoil, counting the recoil. And before he got the trigger to break, his gun was, you know, at 30 yards, he was two feet low.

[D]

She have maimed two feet above the head of the turkey.

[B]

Well, I mean, had we gone right back out. Yeah. We maybe would have had. Had to do.

[A]

Yeah. He didn't troubleshoot these misses till after the fact. Yeah, yeah. Phenomenal. Well, phenomenal.

[B]

Let's. I want to wrap it up with this. I feel bad because I think about all the people out there that have had experiences like that and without diagnosing that, their friends just go, you're a shitty shot, bud. And they believe it. And no one like fixes it. And they go through their life being like, oh man, I'm a shitty shot. Maybe they quit hunting or, or whatever it is.

[A]

But like then they're. Put a name to the problem.

[B]

Yeah. Like it's fixable. Right. Like do the old thing where you get your buddy and then he either loads or doesn't load the shotgun for you and it hands it to you and it has. You shoot at the target and then when he gives you one that's empty and you know, you pull the trigger and go and jump. Then you know, you know you got a little bit of a flinch.

[A]

Last thought about Illinois turkey hunting, is that one o' clock cut off, you got to quit at one.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Changes it. It's humane. It's more humane for humans.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you get, you get a nice nap in.

[F]

I used to be against it, but now I think I like it because you just concentrate all your effort and half a day and not worry about the rest.

[A]

I like to tell you what time it gets light to the time it gets dark.

[B]

Yeah, but like you said often if you're hunting the whole whole day like that, you do come in, you take a little break some days in your mind. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You got to use toothpicks to keep your eyelids.

[F]

Dinner at 10 o' clock at night.

[A]

That's how it's supposed to be.

[F]

Brutal.

[B]

Oh no. We were, we were in bed at like 8:39 every night. It was beautiful. Anyway, so keep an eye in an ear out for when we start talking about next year's TRCP turkey hunt. It's going to be fun and phenomenal.

[A]

All right, Jordan Sillers, what's new in your, your neck of the woods there, Jordan? Oh, man.

[E]

Well, well, I'm glad you asked, Steve. BLOOD TRAIL Season 2 is out now. First episode is out. We're going to be releasing them every Thursday over the next eight weeks. So if you didn't catch it last season, Blood Trails is our true crime podcast about hunters and anglers. So we cover stories where people outside get in some pretty serious trouble. So we got a pretty interesting lineup this season from all around the country. We have people who were killed, murdered, people who disappeared without a trace. So I think, I think, I hope people enjoy it and tune in.

[A]

I thought of you today and I was reading an article about a diver that just found a family that had been missing since the 50s.

[E]

Oh, man. In a lake or they went out

[A]

to cut Christmas tree boughs to make wreaths outside of Portland. And a diver just found their car.

[E]

Wow.

[A]

They had kind of known a little bit about what had happened because they found a couple of the family members dead in the river, like in 59 or something like that. So. And the car had never turned up. So one theory was that the car went into the river, but there was like a big manhunt and a big search, and now a diver found the family car and more human remains.

[E]

That's wild.

[A]

Made me think about you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, isn't that funny that that's how people think about you now?

[E]

I know, I know. You need. You should see my inbox.

[A]

The worst news I read. And I'll think, oh, Jordan, Jordan Sellers.

[E]

I bet he'd like to hear about this.

[A]

I bet that catches fancy.

[E]

It's great.

[C]

You know, in tv, it's kind of universally accepted that season three of a show is the best. That's the peak. It's where, where your characters are established, your storylines are colliding. Just the whole thing is sort of matured.

[D]

You haven't had to recycle anything yet.

[C]

Season three is the pinnacle. So as good as Blood Trails is in season two right now, season three, it gets even better.

[A]

I usually feel like by season three on TV shows. I don't watch serial shows because of this reason. I can start smelling them writing it. I can, I can smell them writing it.

[E]

Like they're predictable.

[A]

I can smell them trying to keep it going.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Like it's, they're past the original idea.

[C]

Not a whiff of that in Blood Trails, though.

[A]

No, no, it's not a serial drama.

[C]

Yeah. Phil, that's. That's like a thing, right?

[B]

For sure.

[A]

I don't necessarily agree. Like, as most. A lot of my favorite TV shows, I think their best seasons are like four and five. But.

[B]

But I. But I. I do think season three is.

[A]

That's a pretty good theory.

[F]

That's something to think about though, for the audience. One case. And you do like 20 episodes on one case.

[E]

So we are this summer planning a three or four. We haven't decided yet. Miniseries on one case.

[A]

Really?

[E]

Yeah. Don't go too long.

[A]

Is it about when my fish got stolen?

[E]

You're familiar with it? No, no. We're gonna do. And we talked to them, actually. These guys who got stuck over in Turks and Caicos because they had ammo in their luggage. We did, but we interviewed them when they were still stuck on the island. So they had to be kind of careful about what they shared and what they didn't. Now they're home. You know, spoiler alert.

[A]

I guess there's enough there for three episodes.

[E]

Yeah, I think pass and listen. I talked to the guy who was in prison over there for eight months. This prison was declared by the UN to be a human rights violation.

[C]

Wow.

[E]

I talked to him for five hours. There's some crazy stories from a Turks and Caicos prison, as you might imagine. So there's plenty there.

[A]

I'll trust your instincts. Your new season's off to a strong start.

[E]

Yes. Yes. Episode one is out. It's about a hunter up near Helena. So this neck of the woods who was murdered.

[A]

Chopped up too. Yeah.

[E]

Back in 2011. And his remains were found in two separate locations. And so lots. You know that that story is a lot of twists and turns. In that one you think you know what's happening and then it's. You're not expecting what's. What's about to happen.

[B]

Some real characters.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

My daughter and I listened over the course of the last 24 hours and we enjoyed it. It was a good episode.

[E]

Good.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Thank you.

[A]

All right, Phil.

[B]

Corrections, corrections, corrections.

[A]

The winner of correction this week when a multi edge 3 Pro trail camera plus. And here's the plus. A one year subscription. That's what matters, man.

[B]

I got mine recently. I didn't even know I could do this. I need to get better at knowing my products. I got mine rigged up now than the ones that I have. The new ones where it only takes a picture of a deer or a turkey.

[A]

Yeah. Have you turned off. Have you turned off squares yet? That's interesting.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. What if you could do that with the other one.

[F]

Trespassers walking around.

[A]

Yeah. What if a Chupacabra comes by? Well, what if a Bigfoot comes by? Yeah, I. That's why I don't. I like the feature in theory, but in practice, do you really want to tell your camera you get something earth shattering if there's a setting like, like deer, turkey or something crazy.

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

You can miss one of the coolest things here. Like an alligator walk.

[A]

Yeah. Or like a chupacabra with the alligator.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah, I guess I'm taking a chance and missing this and that.

[A]

Yeah, that's a. That Is that then even how you can turn off squares? There's a grid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if there's like, areas that are always giving you false trips. Like if you got like birds fly by and trip, you can be like, well, I'm gonna shut those squares off. But what if a chupacabra comes through those squares flying?

[B]

Chupacabra.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

On the contrary.

[B]

What if you see Steve walking?

[C]

What if, like a naked old man walked by? Now, Yanni doesn't have to subject himself to seeing that.

[D]

Yeah, it's true.

[E]

But what.

[D]

There might be some things you don't want to see. You won't be able to unsee.

[B]

It's like an Eldrich horror.

[A]

So the winner of. The winner of this week's trip correction of the week will can sort through these conundrums on their own when they get their camera. Whether or not you want to get specific with integrated AI technology, or whether you want to just see every crazy naked old man and chupacabra out there, it's up to you. Okay, this is one of those ones. We got a lot of corrections on this subject of the Tsavo man eaters. These two lions that kept eating a bunch of people, so many people in fact, they shut down construction of a railroad. We looked at a great painting where the lions are eating a dude's foot. That was a great painting. And a lot of people wrote in, they think that the lions. I said 140 people.

[F]

Well, that's what was in the book, the original book.

[A]

It seems like the lions probably ate closer than 40 people. Closer to 40 people. There's a couple little interesting. And again, a correction can be like missing information, a couple interesting tidbits. When rinder pest came through Africa and started killing, like, almost wiped out Cape buffalo. Right. So this is also during the rinder pest epidemic when prey species were in massive decline.

[F]

Do you want to explain Render pest real quick.

[A]

You Should I know? It's a. It's a cattle disease that. A bunch of. That A bunch of animals in Africa caught when it came in on cattle. But no, I can't. The show can't go on forever.

[F]

Well, that detail, like, I think people would have not understood what was going on.

[A]

A disease came in on cattle and wiped out tons of African wildlife, including was. Was devastating for Cape buffalo. So these lions were potentially low on food because of the Rinder pest epidemic, killing all the wildlife. They probably had some dental injuries. That's supposed. And here's the other thing, is that while they were working on the railroad and also just because of cultural practices, there were more human corpses out on the landscape in those days than there are today. So a lion could get a taste for eating folks just from that. It'd be like, if we. You don't buy that? No.

[F]

Then why wouldn't they just look for corpses? They wouldn't be like, oh, I'm gonna go get like, a live human. I don't. I'm just not buying, like, sure.

[A]

All right. Bro's not buying that part. Either way. That's a correction.

[F]

The.

[A]

The meat of the correction being 40, not 140. That's fair.

[D]

And they. I read some of the studies that he sent, and they basically are looking because they have the remains of these lions. They're looking at their hair and bone collagen, and they can look at sort of the chemical signatures of their diet, and they show, like, you could see, like, month by month, how. How much more of their diet was humans.

[A]

Oh, really?

[D]

Yeah. One of the lions said, like, in the final months of 1898, one of the lions peaked at roughly 30% of its diet as humans.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I brought up that hunters. I was saying that firearm enthusiast shooters could start a class action lawsuit and sue the government for making suppressors hard to get. And the class action lawsuit would be that the government made us all go deaf. I was just trying this out. I wasn't like, you know, I mean, I wasn't. I hadn't taken steps to initiate this class action lawsuit. But I was musing about the class action lawsuit. An attorney wrote in, and he basically is saying, good luck with that. Hearing protection is widely available. The possibility of hearing loss is widely documented. You don't have to go shoot your gun. It's kind of your problem. He thinks that this, this, this, this class action lawsuit is doomed to fail.

[F]

Interesting conversation we had earlier in regards to this. One of our employees who is in the military There was a company that provided hearing protection to everyone. They all. And. And this guy said they all still ended up with hearing damage despite having hearing protection, so.

[D]

And there was some liability on the

[F]

part of the manufacturer, despite the fact that hearing protection is widely available. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to prevent hearing loss.

[A]

He says the actual cause of the hearing loss is that we made decisions to fire guns without wearing readily available hearing protection. Since hearing protection is readily available at nearly every sportsman's shop, each of us had ample opportunity to prevent hearing loss. I'm not writing this because I oppose the idea. I'm writing this with institutional knowledge of the legal world and would hate to see someone waste their money or time exploring such a farce.

[F]

Farce?

[A]

I think it's mean.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

When you're signed off as Esquire, your

[F]

lawyer says your case is a farce, you're in trouble.

[C]

If you decide to pursue this, though, Steve, you'll have a lot of backers. I don't know if this crossed your desk, but you talking about this went viral on TikTok. Got half a million views, 20,000 likes. Oh, so people are like that. That's Steve Rinella.

[D]

We could.

[C]

We could win this thing.

[A]

I don't do a lot of social media.

[F]

This guy's got a great lawyer name, though.

[A]

Yeah. Esquire.

[F]

Yeah. Dylan T. Newkirk, Esquire.

[D]

Alrighty, our next correction comes for me. He writes in, I'm a ballistician who specializes in small caliber internal ballistics. It's a fascinating field.

[A]

Are you just gonna seriously just breeze past that? He's a ballistician.

[F]

Yeah, because that's cool.

[C]

I didn't know it was a thing.

[D]

No, it's great. No, that's why I'm reading this. That's why I'm reading his introduction words.

[A]

Well, I would have gone, I may. Ballastician. Yeah.

[F]

Like you want to talk about bonafides.

[D]

And I like his specialty in small caliber internal ballistics.

[A]

The hell's he.

[D]

Yeah, internal ballistics is from the ignition to the muzzle, which is fascinating. He says it tell the truth.

[A]

You think? You think he's lying?

[D]

He says it's a fascinating field, which is, in general, poorly understood by most gun owners.

[A]

His name's Geoffrey.

[D]

Yeah, I like this guy. In that episode when we were discussing suppressors, I sort of offhandedly at the end made a very dry joke that there's someone out there working on quiet gunpowder. And so he wrote in to say that that's impossible. He says the noise Generated by a gunshot comes from two things. The rapid expansion of gases and the supersonic crack of the projectiles that breaks the sound barrier. There really isn't a way to make an inherently quieter chemical propellant, as it's the gas expansion and subsequent release of pressure that makes the noise. It's essentially a very high pressure version of popping a balloon. And then he goes on. He goes on to say that even air guns are loud when you get up to the larger air rifles. The most powerful air guns can do about 6,000 psi at the chamber. Your average 6.5. Creedmoor has a chamber pressure of 10 times that and two to three times that at the muzzle, Depending on powder charge, bullet weight, and barrel length. The only way to mitigate this is to use a suppressor to slow down gas expansion. Now you're just letting go of the balloon instead of popping it, which is a great, great illustration. Aside from that, make sure you're using ammunition that gets full powder burned before the bullet exits the tubes. Short barrels, especially on ars, are notorious for being mini flashbangs. As the last of the powder charge is burned externally, it really doesn't make it quieter, but it does cut down on how concussive the shot is. And micro tbis are cumulative.

[B]

So what's a tbi?

[D]

Traumatic brain injury. Oh, there's the study. There was a story in the times, like, a couple months ago about how. How much brain damage is done, like shooting pistols indoors. And it was. I mean, I don't remember any details from the concussion. Yeah, just like micro concussions hitting you all the time.

[A]

See, I don't do that. That must be why I'm smart.

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

It seems like this guy's telling you you made a really bad joke.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I rewatched it to make sure that I.

[A]

You did. The delivery was Randall sensitive? Well, I was just like, let's go to the vote.

[D]

I was like, how bad was my delivery? That. That wasn't understood as a joke. But nonetheless, I'm glad this guy wrote in because I like his. I like his style.

[A]

Well, I'm voting for him because I like it that he's a ballastician.

[C]

Yes, I like that he's an old man who still puts two spaces between period and capitalized.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

I'm glad you caught that, Spencer.

[C]

Yeah, I always appreciate seeing that, because you know that I don't think you

[A]

can vote for him for that reason.

[C]

No, I'm just saying I'd like that this person learned to type on a

[E]

typewriter I'm not voting him for that reason.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[D]

Speak and tell us to do that.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Corrections. The vote. The vote. Savo. Man eaters. Three votes.

[E]

Wow.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Class action lawsuit. Not going to work. Is what is.

[B]

Zero votes.

[A]

Zero votes. Randall being dumb.

[D]

Randall's deliver.

[A]

Winner. Clear winner.

[D]

At first, when I read because his subject line is low volume powder, and I was like, man, this is going to be really interesting. I thought he was talking about like the volume of powder in a case.

[A]

Oh, gotcha.

[D]

And then I realized it was about my bad joke.

[A]

Yeah. Enjoy your camera and your subscription. Multi camera to subscription. Thank you very much. Iconic summer moments deserve an iconic drink. It is Mountain Dew in American Original. From their beginnings in the foothills of Tennessee to the biggest fourth of July yet, the refreshing citrus kick of Mountain Dew is the perfect companion to your American summer adventures. No matter where you go or who you are with, bring Mountain Dew to amplify your celebration. When I was in college, Dew was the daytime beverage of choice for all things summer. Rope swings into the river, jumping off bridges into the river, tube in the river, fishing the river, riding snowboards down the Lake Michigan sand dunes, right out into the waves and shooting off fireworks at night. You name it, we were powered by Dew. It's been tasting great since 48. That's right. Two brothers created Mountain Dew in the foothills of Tennessee back in 1948. The refreshing citrus kick is perfect for summer and 4th of July at the grill, on the beach or right in the living room. Enjoy the refreshing citrus kick of Mountain Dew in American original. Tasting great since 48. Look for American Dew limited time packaging or find it in stores near you@mountain Dew.com that is Mountain Dew.com with an aura frame. You can capture and relive mom's magic every day. Tony. These aura frames are perfect gifts for moms. Grandmas, anybody? Okay, it's. It's a digital frame. You preload photos on it before it ships.

[E]

All right?

[A]

So as soon as they open it up, they plug it in, you got it preloaded. But then you can add photos anywhere, anytime, so you can keep it updated with photos of the grandkids. Photos, whatever, right? So mom, grandma, she's just sitting there and there it is popping up, all these awesome images keeping her up to date on the family. There's a gift box included. Okay. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. Share your photos and videos effortlessly. Download the free aura app or text photos straight to your frame. Make Mother's Day special with Aura frames named number one by wirecutter. You can save on the gifts moms love by visiting auraframes.com for a limited time. Listeners of this year podcast can get 25 off their best selling Carver mat frame with code meat eater. That's auraframes.com promo code meat Eater. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. O'Reilly Auto Parts can help take the guesswork out of check engine, ABS or maintenance lights in your vehicle with O'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified master technicians. O'Reilly Veriscan can identify the most likely problem problem with just one scan. If you need help, O'Reilly Auto Parts can recommend a shop for you. Don't ignore a check engine, ABS or maintenance light. Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan Today, a free service exclusively at O'Reilly Auto Parts. A couple listener emails guy wrote in that his wife makes him go to Greek orth. See, this is terrible, but I'm gonna read it anyways. He's Roman Catholic and he says when I, when we go to my church, you know, church service is 45 minutes.

[C]

He's home for kickoff.

[A]

He says his wife is Greek Orthodox and he says they get a little carried away. He's been listening to the podcast in there because he's got these new hearing aids that blew too thin so no one knows what he's doing. They don't even know that he, they don't think he's listening to anything. It's piping in on his hearing aids hero. But he says now and then he's in there smirking.

[F]

You can't say this guy's name or his wife's gonna find.

[B]

No, no, no. He told his wife.

[A]

Oh, that might have given it away. Don't say his name because then the preacher might.

[B]

Yeah, no, he confessed to his wife since it was obvious I had no painful expressions on my face and was smiling from.

[F]

Yeah, but we don't want to get

[A]

into trouble at church.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

To our service. To our service to that church.

[C]

He felt like he needed to have more painful expression. That's what he's saying.

[E]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

He didn't have some usual scowl.

[F]

Be even worse. It was a two hour service with a gobbler right outside the church.

[A]

I know. And then you couldn't hunt in Mississippi because it'd be against the law as covered on the news show. Another guy wrote in just make real quick. He's been struggling what do with his remains I've talked about that. I would like my remains hauled out in the mountains where they could be eaten by a bear. He had an idea which is very interesting, because the problem. My idea is then you got to task your family members with, like, care, like, carrying your carcass around.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And then probably becoming a future episode of Blood Trails.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

His idea, you just get cremated and then mix it in and put it at a black bear bait station. So that way you can be eaten by bears very conveniently.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder if you went the green burial route and you went through that paperwork or whatever, and then instead of doing the burial, you just ended up at the bait station kind of hole. Like, you want to be. Like, if that would pass.

[A]

But if you did that and then a dude killed a bear at that bait station and then he learned that he ate you, he's gonna be not happy.

[F]

Yeah, that's okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Whatever they have, they have little trees you can buy where you add, like, the compost to it is supposed to be cremated remains. So then you're, like, growing that tree, and then someone could put a tree stand in it someday.

[A]

That's a great idea.

[C]

It's an option.

[A]

Lots of things to do with your body.

[E]

I talked. I talked to a guy up in Maine, Canine handler for search and Rescue. He told me that their dogs can smell. They smelled some, like, bear scat or coyote scat, and they signaled on it because they could smell the human that they'd eaten.

[C]

Wow.

[E]

So it had gone through the digestive tract, and the dogs could still smell it in that scat, which I thought was pretty.

[A]

Is that covered in blood trails?

[E]

Episode two, coming out this Thursday.

[A]

Oh, gracious.

[D]

This guy's a pro.

[E]

There you go.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Slipped in.

[B]

That's gonna be good. But you know what? You guys are just commenting on how good his idea is. He has a question at the end of his email. His question is that he knows.

[A]

So blown away by the idea.

[B]

He knows that there's going to be other critters coming in there to eat his remains, like raccoons. And he doesn't like raccoons for some reason. And so he wants to know how to keep raccoons and other pests away from the Bear Bay and only let the bears eat it.

[A]

I don't know.

[F]

Hang that stuff up where you gotta go hanging in a way that you can.

[B]

I say you shouldn't be against the coons. They're critters, too. Let them eat some of you and spread you around the woods a Little bit. You know, like, what's the problem with the coon?

[A]

Just give it or give it to clay and have clay put it and you'll have eight bears eating it.

[D]

Yeah, but what happens if the raccoons really get after it and you're like, clean it out. You're like, oh, what was the deal with so and so? He's like, oh, well, his final wish was to be eaten by bears. And then you're like, well, he was mostly eaten by raccoons. But one bear did come in. You know, take some of the romance out of it.

[A]

I think that if you go a thin like you get your body back and you put it the ashes at a low ratio or ground up however you do it. If you could get it ground up and mix it in a lot and just make sure you got a lot of bait. Everything's going to partake. You're going to have ravens flying around with you in them. Crows flying around.

[F]

Pretty romantic if you're just going everywhere.

[A]

Yeah. You're all, you're. You're meso predators.

[F]

Big.

[A]

Yeah. It's great. Yeah. And etiquette.

[F]

Etiquette. Etiquette.

[A]

Thank you.

[F]

Okay. Turkey hunting. I exclusively hunt public land in Virginia and a lot on the national forest. A lot of the national forest out here, but right up against private owned by people who build little hunting cabins. Last springer found a great spot that butted up against private. There's clearly marked public access. I'm not on any one else's land. It's right off the main road. Went into hunt it opening morning. Got there really early. Not long before gobbling time, another truck pulled in. So he must have still been like out getting ready in the parking lot or whatever. It was an old timer. He was friendly but said he owned the adjacent private land and he parks his truck there during the season. Deter other hunters from.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[F]

Yes. His friend picks him up, takes himself just.

[A]

Just to help people connect the dots here. He's creating the appearance that someone's already there.

[F]

This is not something that I've never heard of before.

[A]

Yeah. This old man did not invent this.

[B]

Oh, I'm sure someone in this room has done this.

[F]

Maybe he has to exchange numbers and said would love to know if you get one. I hunted it anyways that day and killed a nice gobbler. Now after him telling me he's trying to keep people out of there, I wasn't really keen on letting him know that I got one a year later. The day before opening day this year after Having not heard from this guy in over a year, wouldn't know him from Adam. He texts me asking where I'm going in the mornings. Not as though he'd like to tag along, but just wants to know where I'm going. I know I'm not entitled to let him know that I'm hunting the land adjacent to his. I get sharing info. So we're both not pulling up to hunt the same spot. But, like, he's not buying that that's where this guy's going with it. He's just, like, trying to keep tabs on. Yeah, this guy. I don't appreciate another hunter trying to keep track of where I'm going. I don't really trust him either. Since he's trying to keep people out of public land. I'm kind of at a loss what to do. Should I just not respond? Should I tell him to go kick rocks? Should I just tell them the general area I'm going to? I would not respond. Maybe you should respond because you never know when you might need to get on that guy's land to, like, retrieve a bird. Or, who knows, you could get in a pickle and need his help or something. I don't know.

[D]

I just text him two days later and say, sorry, didn't see this.

[F]

Got one.

[D]

Got one. And then sent him a smiling picture of you in a different place.

[E]

Foreign.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a tough one. I can't.

[B]

It's not tough. There's so many right answers. It really comes down to how he's perceiving.

[A]

No, no. I'm not saying, like, how to be. I'm not saying how to be friendly. I'm saying how would you hand. Like. Like, would you share with him? You know, would you share with them to say, you know, I'm not sure where I'm going to be hunting. I've been thinking, though, that the move of trying to create the feeling that someone else is there doesn't sit well with me.

[F]

Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is, like, that's the thing that you need to say.

[B]

That's the rub.

[F]

The thing is, is if you go, like, aggro on the guy, he's probably gonna come back at you aggro, and, like, sees your truck parked there, and then he's got a pro. You know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, I wasn't gonna suggest you go aggro. I'm just saying I would say use it to your advantage and just become buddies with him and be like, oh, because you're doing this and I'm in On it. Like I sort of. Well, you know, I'm. I'm in on the thing.

[A]

But you say, hey, partner, I'm hunting back in our little spot. What can we do to make sure no one else does?

[B]

Yeah, would you mind parking the truck

[D]

in that spot again?

[A]

That's what you do.

[B]

I'm just saying there's options, you know,

[F]

but like, the detail about this guy using a, A, A vehicle to keep people out of a spot is.

[A]

But he's not keeping them out.

[B]

No, it's subterfuge.

[A]

It's. It's subterfuge.

[F]

It's trying to persuade them not to go in there for sure.

[B]

And I mean, I've hunted spots like that. And when there's a truck already there, you're not going to stop. You're going to go to the next pull off.

[A]

There's a, There's a. There's a mindset. Like for instance, you know, I've. I have friends in Alaska that advocate on having a very brightly colored tent. They like a bright colored tent. Why? They don't want to be hidden. They want people to be like, ah, damn it. Yeah, there's dudes down there hunting right from the air.

[F]

You can see. You can see.

[A]

Yeah. So if they said, well, what I do is I set brightly colored tents all over the place, they'd be like, is it, is it wrong or is it just a, you know, a dick move? Yeah. Or just a move. A move. Like, is parking. He's not. If he was putting up a sign that says no trespassing, that's flat out immoral. That's immoral and illegal.

[B]

I think in a lot of places.

[A]

Park in a car to create the illusion of pressure. I don't, I don't know that it's immoral. It's just like a. It's a little move. It's a move. I don't think it's immoral.

[F]

I think it is. I think there's a. There's a, There's a. Spencer, I don't.

[A]

I'm not saying I like it. I just don't think it's immoral.

[F]

He's going through a lot. He's having his buddy pick him up. Like he's going through some steps.

[A]

What do you think, Spencer?

[C]

I wouldn't text this guy specifics.

[A]

Is it immoral? Is the neighbor being immoral?

[C]

It wouldn't bother me that much. It's just like a little game he's playing and he thinks it's going to, you know, give him a 10% chance more of killing something. I'm okay with it, but he's not.

[D]

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but he's not hunting that area. He's just trying to keep people away from the area.

[A]

Wouldn't.

[E]

It's because he's not hunting the area. That's why it's a problem.

[A]

If he was hunting. What's he supposed to do with his car if he's hunting the area?

[F]

He's trying to create a buffer between his.

[D]

I understand that, but, like. Like, so what Spencer's saying is this guy's doing, like, what's the purpose of this guy's game? It's not to improve his odds. It's just to keep people out of

[A]

the private land right there that day.

[B]

He didn't hunt it. But we don't know what happens the rest of the season. Maybe he's got family coming in a week and he wants to hunt those birds that live behind his place.

[D]

I do think it's immoral.

[A]

Immoral?

[D]

I'll put if we're. If we're judging it on moral or immoral. I would say immoral.

[A]

What if I hung a sign up that said the turkeys here are all dead?

[F]

I'd be running in there.

[D]

I just don't like. I don't like messing with other people's hunts. Yeah, I do my business, you do your business, and we accommodate one another as best we can. I don't like messing with somebody else.

[A]

Okay, good. That's good moral clarity.

[F]

Thanks.

[A]

That was waffling.

[B]

Yeah, but are you then gonna call him out on it because you're not going to quit hunting that spot.

[D]

I'm probably not going to call him out on it, but.

[B]

So you're then just going to go enjoy the fruits of his labor?

[D]

I have nothing to do with it.

[A]

You're not gonna respond to it?

[D]

If he asked me what I think about it, then, oh, I don't want to get into a confrontation with someone that I don't like. I'd just be like this kind of a dick move, whatever, you know?

[A]

And then when he texts you, like, hey, buddy, where you hunt? You just don't reply.

[D]

Probably not. I don't know. I just, like. That's weird to me. I don't know.

[A]

I just.

[D]

People just need to leave one another alone. Just less people, please. You know, I don't know. I just want to go turkey hunting. I just want to go bear hunting. And, like, Brody's in the same trailhead. We can just say I'm gonna go this way, you go that way. Whatever. I don't know.

[F]

I'd be like, no, I'm just leaving

[D]

all the games and subterfuge and everything. It just bothers me.

[A]

All right. Real strong moral clarity.

[D]

Well, I don't know. So much of my world view is relativist that it's fun to just dig in my heels sometimes, you know?

[A]

A hot tip on recovering lost arrows.

[B]

We talked about this at least twice already about arrows being lost at public archery ranges and what you should do when you find them or how to find them or how to get your arrows back. Well, this fellow wrote in, thanks to Tyler. He said what he does is he writes his name and a phone number on his fletching, so when someone finds it, they can just dial him up and then keep. Keep it easy. Instead of having to meet up somewhere, he just says, hey, stash it in so and so spot at the range and I'll grab it next time.

[A]

So this is happening to him all the time?

[B]

Often enough.

[A]

I guess we got to put that one to rest. That's good. No, if it was about lost arrows in my yard, I'd be more interested.

[F]

Yeah, but that's a simple, like, great solution to a problem.

[D]

I love it.

[A]

That's true. Yeah.

[C]

We had a hot tip off on Media Radio where the guy said he puts a small reflective tape in front of his veins, and then he bought, like, a 12 UV flashlight from Amazon. And you can see that thing from 50 yards away if you're pointing the flashlight in the right direction.

[D]

Oh, so that's where this all started.

[A]

Yeah. That's good, Randall.

[D]

All right, I guess I'll put on my moral hat again. Yeah, I mean, this is big news. Last week, Republicans in the Senate voted to essentially kill the 20 year moratorium on this mine upstream of the Boundary Waters. A potential mine upstream of the boundary waters. It's basically bent over backwards to let a Chilean billionaire take minerals out of the ground and send them to be processed in China.

[A]

So then when they ship them back as products, they can be American. They'll be tariffs on them.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And this is on our own stuff coming back to us.

[D]

70% of Minnesotans opposed the mind. 98 of the 675,000 public comments were opposed to it. Dozens of hunting and fishing organizations were opposed to it. And then the way that they did this, too, like, there's a bunch of stuff you can get into here. The way that they did this was using the Congressional Review act, which is a law it was passed in 96. That lets Congress sort of override or cancel regulations put in place by federal agencies, and they're supposed to do it within 60 days. And it had not been used very much, I think the first 20 years of its existence. It was used once, then it was used. There were five of them during Obama. Zero successful uses because he vetoed them. And then Biden used it three times. But of the 42 times this has been used, 38 of them have been under Trump. So it's. It's not just a change in, like, policy ever. Yeah, 38 out of the 42 have been. Have been. So it's a change.

[A]

Yeah, it'll be. Some lawyer will be like, hey, you know, we could try, right? And some luck with it.

[D]

And the thing about it is that you can't put the genie back in the bottle because once you use this act, they can never make a rule that's. The agency can never come back and make a similar rule. So it sort of does it forever. Like, it just overturns the decision forever.

[A]

The.

[D]

The mine's not a done deal. Like, they still have to do permitting, and permitting could be a bear that could, like, kill it. But I mean, essentially the way this worked was this is a Chilean mining company. In 1966, they got mineral rights for this area. Their lease expired. They renewed it. It expired again. They renewed it again. And then under Obama, it expired. And at that point, they basically said, you don't have a right to automatically renew this lease. We need to reevaluate the merits and risks of having this lease in place. And so they put a two year moratorium in place so that they could do a study once Obama goes out of office.

[C]

The.

[D]

The billionaire guy in Chile, he basically kicks this right off.

[C]

He.

[D]

And one of the weird things about this is in December of 2016, so right after the election, he buys a $6 million house in D.C. and rents it to Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner. It never goes on the market as a rental. He just buys it. They see it before the property is even closed, and they move in.

[C]

And they lived there through 2022, I think it was a while.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. And then he, like, this guy has also met. He's met Trump before at a Patriots game because they're buddies with Kraft and Brady. But within weeks of the administration coming in, he starts. He starts communicating directly with Zinke and his staff. So all of a sudden, Zinke announces that the feds like the decision that we had to we could reevaluate. This was bad. And he says, actually we have to automatically renew the lease. So just like a pivot sort of based on some strange legal technicality. So they reissue the lease. Zinke says that it deserves further study and then reissued the lease the next day. Meanwhile, the Forest Service under Sonny Perdue kills the study, even though he told Congress they would do the study. Long story short, Biden comes in, he cancels the lease, and they put in place this. They finished the study and put in place a 20 year moratorium on mining. Trump comes back in. Zinke is now in Congress. And Zink, the guy who took over for Zinke at Interior, David Bernhardt, who's Trump's other Secretary of the Interior in his first term, he is now working as a lobbyist for the Chilean mining company. And so Zinke, at quite a nice

[A]

little chunk of change.

[D]

I heard, yeah, I've heard, I heard from one source like a hundred thousand dollars a month. I couldn't find documented proof of that. I saw some other reports that were like a couple hundred thousand a quarter,

[A]

but I heard, yeah, I heard similar amounts to try to push this thing through Just, just real quick so people understand what we're talking about when we say a mine. People are familiar with the Boundary Waters Wilderness Area. This is, this is a mine that's going in upstream of that in, in Superior National Forest. Superior National Forest, interestingly, was put in place by Theodore Roosevelt, I think, 1909. What they do is they're, you're pulling a bunch of rock up out of the ground that once it oxidizes, it produces an acid. And I mean, like, like, you know, millions of, like millions of tons.

[F]

Yeah, and I'll, like, I'll point out that the fact that like you're hearing a lot of people say, but the mine's not in the Boundary Waters, it's important that it's upstream or will be because this type of mine, there's never been an example of this type of mine not resulting in. And this pollution, like major pollution.

[D]

Antifogast is the Chilean company they just had in, in January of this year. They have a copper sulfide mine in Chile that was, they just received a bunch of fines for violating water quality standards and monitoring. And yeah, it just seems like a bad actor that had some friends in the White House and they pushed it through. Like, I've also heard there were a bunch of senators that were opposed to killing the moratorium and they kind of got phone calls from the White House. And yeah, basically Zinke whipped it up in the House and pushed it through and Bernhardt's been lobbying for it and, and now the moratorium can't come back because they did it in this way.

[A]

So

[D]

for like a system in which we should have say in the management of our public lands and you would hope that people can weigh in and make a difference in how their own public lands are managed. It's kind of just a big slap in the face.

[A]

Another interesting part of it is if you go back to last June when we were fighting the public land sell off this after that fight, the story sort of came out about this like grand coalition and, and every time there's a big public lands fight, like when it happened under Jason Chaffetz, when it happened under Mike Lee, so Jace chaffis was like 2017 or something like that. Mike Lee last June, both times it was like this proposal to sell 3 million acres of public lands in the West. And the story afterward comes out and it's like this coalition of sportsman's groups and this like unusual mix of these like traditionally right wing and traditionally left wing voices come together in support of whatever. In this case, I mean in this case these sort of like Hunter Angler, you know the Hunter Angler, like right leaning block couldn't deliver the goods. I mean this thing went on party lines, dude. Like, like all, all these Hunter Angler based conservation organizations of which I'm a board of, a board member of one could not turn Republican votes.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

They're just like, no. And apparently like we're going, we're going with what the boss tells us on this one. And it was also like it was looking at vote looked good. The White House got involved in the vote and then people chicken it out. And people that talked about, people that talked. There's even people, there's people that expressed knowing that they were voting wrong. They expressed that they were voting wrong but had to what that kind of stuff like is just like that kind of stuff's infuriating.

[C]

And you can feel it in some of the statements afterwards that some of these politicians made. They were almost like apologetic about, you know, their justification for how they voted.

[A]

The justification for how they voted. Someone told them what to do.

[D]

Yeah. And I will say like I've seen, I've seen a lot of comments out there, like some from our audience taking shots at like the, like you'll, a lot of times you'll, in debates like this, you'll hear people say this isn't a partizan issue, right? Like. Like, this is not a partisan issue. We just need to get it done. And to say something's not a partisan issue isn't to, like, say that both sides are the same on this issue. It's to say. It's to give space and say, like, you can be a Republican and do the right thing when it comes to this. Right.

[A]

Like, not in this case.

[D]

Well, yeah, I mean, it's not on this one. It's like an aspiration. But what I'm saying is, like, it's not. It's not a judgment that, like, this was definitely a partisan vote, but, like, there are Republicans out there or people who don't identify as Republican, but they might be conservative, whatever. You can be opposed to this mine, no matter what walk of life you're in, but, like, your representatives aren't following through on it. You know what I'm saying?

[F]

Like, yeah, for the general population, it's not partisan, but it certainly was partisan when the. When it came time to vote.

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. So it's not like, when you say something's. When you say conservation is a non. Like, should be a nonpartisan issue. It's not exculpating like. Like this. It's. It's meant to say, like, people from both parties can agree on this, but whether or not their elected officials are going to do the right thing is something entirely different on.

[A]

On the term. In terms of saying stuff like that. I don't want to spend all day on this one. This is a major issue in terms of saying stuff like that. When people will say to me or they'll say whatever, they'll be like, well, I don't want to get political. I don't want to be political. But it's like, everything is political. The fact that Superior National Forest is there in the first place. How is Superior National Forest there? Because Theodore Roosevelt wrote it into existence. How did he have the authority to write it into existence? Because he won the election, the political one. Everything is political. Suppressors is political. Jordan's going to talk about Oklahoma releasing captive deer into the wild. I don't want to get political. It's political, right? We're going to talk about the Colorado fur ban political. It just. It just is people that want to stay away from politics. Like. Like, I get the sentiment of what you're saying, but it's not how things work.

[D]

Oh, yeah, no, I. Like. Yeah, I guess.

[A]

But yes, on a non. Yes.

[D]

When you say. When you say, like, conservation, this isn't a partisan issue, it means that People from both sides can agree on it. Yeah, it's giving space for that.

[A]

Yes. Like the great American outdoors.

[D]

It's not like giving Republicans a free pass on kowtowing to the White House and pushing this through, even though they know it's the wrong thing to do.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. There are non. You know, there's talk right now, it seems goofy, but, like, putting Theodore Roosevelt just got leaked the other day. Putting Theodore Roosevelt in the Football hall of Fame. Have you seen this? Comes right on the heels of this Boundary waters thing. So you're like basically on the legacy of Theodore Roosevelt. And then like a day later it's leaked that, like, we're going to put him in the Football hall of Fame. You know, he'd probably be like, yeah, if this is a trade off, I'll go the, I'll go with the. Preserving the boundary waters from acid runoff. Yeah, please.

[D]

So I guess the last thing to say is just like, there's still stuff you can do. Like it, like when we take a loss like this, you still can call up your representatives. You don't need an excuse to call up your representatives and let them know. So if you, if you're, if you.

[A]

How much good, I'll see how far that'll get you on this one. Well, yeah, a lot of people did that.

[D]

I know, but what, what else are

[A]

you going to do?

[C]

The state of Minnesota keep going. They may have a move left to like prevent this. There's also. Canada will be involved. They've said that they're going to resist this. Also local tribes, they have like some say in this as well. And so there's a few players who could maybe slow this down or, or stop it.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not a done deal to move. It'll move the next step. It was just a disappointing vote. It was a disappointing vote because so many people, so many representatives on the. In this specific case, so many representatives on the Republican side signaled to conservation groups, signaled that they wanted to do the right thing and then ultimately admitted that they couldn't, which is like, you

[F]

know, like you said, chicken shits.

[C]

Yeah, I guess worse in politics as

[D]

far as calling them, though, what I mean is like, if somebody does the wrong thing and then nobody burns their ass about it.

[A]

Yeah, like, call up.

[D]

You want.

[A]

Listen, buster, you want those people mighty disappointed.

[D]

You want those people in the office to be like, shit, like people are pissed off about this.

[C]

Yeah. This vote, this was an open book test. Like, the answer was so obvious that there shouldn't be mining here because the public was so against it. The locals were against it. The history that these mines have, like, it was clear that the answer is no, we don't allow this. And so I think it's fair for our audience to, you know, look at these politicians in the future when, when Mr. Politician campaigns on being an outdoorsman, a hunter, an angler, a conservationist, a public land advocate, it's reasonable to be like, I don't think you get a second chance on this. Like, you, you failed this open book test so spectacularly that I don't believe you. And the consequence of that is I'm not going to vote for you because of your track record on like this exact thing.

[A]

I don't say.

[D]

You say. That's a good segment, Randall.

[A]

It's a good segment, Randall. Great wrap up. Great wrap up. Spencer Newman.

[E]

That's inspiring, George.

[C]

There should be consequences when they, when they mess it up that bad. That's it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what, man? I gotta talk.

[E]

I'm gonna.

[A]

I have an. I'm gonna. I gotta speak in D.C. at an event, a dinner. I'm gonna talk a little bit about the boundary waters, okay?

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

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[E]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I didn't see none of these deer.

[E]

My neck of the woods, I didn't

[A]

see none of these deer running around.

[E]

Well, there's only two so far. Yeah. No, every time I talk about this, I, I have a hard time believing it actually happened, but. But sure enough, it did. So back in 2024. So two years ago, the Oklahoma state legislature passed a bill. I mean, speaking of, like, bad votes, this bill was passed almost unanimously in both the House and the Senate, and it established what was called the Chronic Wasting Disease Genetic Improvement Act. And the idea here is that we're going to breed whitetail deer to be resistant to cwd. So there's a biologist from Texas A and M named Chris Seabury, or Seabury, who basically discovered that if, and I forget the exact, like, allele at whatever codon, but if deer have this, they're resistant to cwd. Now, they're not immune, so they can still get.

[A]

They call them durable.

[E]

Durable. Right. So they can still get it. And that's a really key thing to understand here. They're not immune from cwd, but they're more durable.

[A]

That's the fashionable word lately is durable.

[E]

Yeah. Right. And what kind of advocates of this point to oftentimes is scrapey in sheep, which is also a prion disease, and it was eliminated through this kind of genetic breeding program. Right. Obviously, you're really not comparing apples to apples in that situation, because sheep are our livestock right there in pens there. It's a very controlled environment. The proposal here is to breed these deer to be genetically durable to cwd, and then we're going to release them into the wild to improve the genetics of the wild herd, which kind of sounds like it might work, but it's never been tried anywhere. The other really crucial thing is that you can't. The deer aren't tested for CWD before they're released. We don't know if these deer have the disease before they're released. And I've confirmed this with the head. The head vet. The head veterinarian.

[A]

No, that's true.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't know.

[E]

For Oklahoma. They don't know. They don't know. They weren't tested. And so, and I'm, I'm not 100% sure what it's like in Oklahoma. I can tell you in Texas the deer breeders are like, where? See, like if there's CWD in Texas, it's probably in those breeding facilities. So it's there. But these deer that are released, we don't know if they have it. And so they passed this bill in 2024. And I think like people weren't, I mean, maybe it's just me, but I was like again, they're not gonna actually do this. Right. And the bill itself was very, it's, it's very hard to understand the bill as it was written because it allowed the Department of Agriculture in Oklahoma to write the rules, basically the standard that they would use to release the deer. But then it also had another line in there that said the Department of Wildlife Conservation, so the people kind of supposed to be in charge of wildlife in the state. They have a, some kind of permitting authority. It said they can charge a one time permit fee. It didn't say they could create rules. But if you're charging a permit fee, then it's kind of implied you have the authority to create the rules by which you get that permit. But it was all very unclear. Fast forward two years. In the original bill, it said the deere would be released between February and April of this year. The wildlife agency hadn't crafted any kind of permitting requirements or any kind of rules. They had started a survey to survey the genetics of the wild population. They hadn't completed that yet. But then we kind of got news about a month ago that one of these deer had actually been released. The Ag department approved a release of one of these deer. So this is a, again, a pen raised deer that hasn't been tested for CWD is now being released onto a low fence property where it can go kind of wherever it wants to go.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

And the public does not know where.

[E]

I, I got a county. I can tell you it's a wagoner county.

[A]

Okay.

[E]

I think that's how you say it was one of the deer. I don't know where the second deer was released. And like from the, from the breeders perspective, this is great because now our potential pool of customers is everyone. Right. Any landowner in the state. It used to be you could only sell a deer to a high fence operation, which, you know, there are lots of those in Oklahoma, not that many. Now any landowner can buy a deer. Why you would want to is sort of beyond me.

[A]

Because you can buy like you could buy one of their, their crazy big box.

[E]

Right.

[A]

But one of their phony big bucks and then cut it loose on your place and act like you're doing it to help CWD. Well, there's 750,000 deer in Oklahoma, right. These two deer, like, you know, I'll be the first to admit, I'm no mathematician. Well, we, I'm so statistician. But they've cut two of these deer loose into a state with 750,000 deer. And they're like, this will help genetically with, with cwd. It's like, are you kidding?

[F]

We were taught, we talked to Heffelfinger about this a while back, and he made that point, like, you're never going, like, spread that gene effectively spread that gene through the entire population. But he also said, you don't know what else that gene could be responsible for. Like, it could have all kinds of negative effects, too.

[E]

So they, the, the wildlife commission held a hearing on this where they invited some scientists to present. One of them had put a model together of like, how many deer would we actually have to release in order to improve the genetics of the state? It was like 75,000 per year for 10 years straight, basically just replacing the entire population. And even then the, the, the genetic benefits you get start to degrade after you stop releasing more deer. And this was also, you know, according to the scientists in their model, they assume kind of best case scenario, which is that captive deer will survive and breed at the same rate as wild deer, which, I mean, is kind of a big assumption. Right.

[A]

One of the craziest parts of this. Go on. Yeah. I'll tell you the crazy. I'll tell you what I feel is crazy.

[E]

Yeah. So there's kind of one more chapter to this, is that the, the kind of sponsors of this program in the legislature were very frustrated with the wildlife agency for not moving forward with the survey, for kind of dragging their heels. Right. According to the sponsor. So this year they proposed a new bill that would totally eliminate the wildlife agency from this process. Like, they would have no permitting role. They wouldn't be able to charge a permitting fee, just totally remove them from the process entirely. So these deer, which wildlife in the state would be controlled by the department of Agriculture, that bill. So two years ago, the bill sailed through this bill just failed in a senate committee. It passed the House, went over to the Senate. It failed in a senate committee on a 9 to 3 vote. And I was told that the kind of the public interest, you might say, in the program two years ago has then trickled to now, and senators now are a little More hesitant to sign off on this. And so it's possible that there's appetite to, to kind of get rid of the program entirely next year in a bill.

[A]

Because you can't find, you can't find a wildlife org except the deer breeders.

[E]

Right.

[A]

You can't find a wildlife org that thinks it's a good idea. No, I love that Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young are saying Oklahoma deer. There's a possibility of Oklahoma deer becoming ineligible for the books. Are genetically modified.

[E]

Yep, yep. And it could expand like, like I live in Texas neighbors. Oklahoma. Yeah. If they like cross the border into, into Texas. Now Texas deer are not. Right. So it's. No one seems to really like this except for the deer breeders and their allies.

[A]

Well, one of the main. Okay, one of the main. And choose my words carefully here. One of the primary, main, key, main, primary, most important key individuals involved in this genetic, this supposed genetic durability issue. Prior to that work, had been on the warpath against Texas's state agency about CWD because he felt that, that, he felt that they were imperiling his land values by talking about CWD all the time.

[E]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Then lo and behold, down the road, the other interesting thing is this is the biggest proponents from this. When I look around and get messages from friends and stuff, the biggest proponents of this are the same people that have always said it's a hoax. CWD is a hoax.

[E]

Right.

[A]

Then why do we need a solution? You're like, it's a hoax, but here's the solution. Yeah, it's a hoax, but this will fix it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like home it. Is it a hoax or does this fix this? Or is this self serving?

[B]

Well, if you gotta release 75000 deer annually, someone's gonna make some money.

[A]

But it's so funny. Like, it's like one minute it's a hoax and it doesn't have any impact and the next minute the industry's like, but wait a minute, it is a problem. And guess who's the solution? It's me.

[E]

Right? Right. Right.

[A]

All these years you've blamed me and now here I am with the fix.

[E]

Right, Right. But, but you can, you can kind of, you can kind of see why if you're not really paying attention to this issue, you're not in this, in the weeds on this. You're like, yeah, we breed, we like, we, we breed for certain traits and animals. Right. Why wouldn't this work? And so you can kind of see why this program, the state legislators were like, okay, yeah, we'll give it a shot. Might as well. But now it sounds like they've been. And, you know, organizations, the sportsmen, conservation organizations, have been doing a lot of work in that legislature to educate the representatives there, and it seems to be kind of taking hold.

[A]

I'm going to paraphrase something from the conservationist Jim Posewitz. Jim Paswitz. He made this point. I think he might have been on the show when he made this point, or I was interviewing him or something. Either way, the late Jim Posewitz was saying he was talking about the deer breeders, this idea of them trying to make giant mega bucks and all this stuff. The reason they're doing that is because there is. There's a societal belief in this, the symbolism of wildlife.

[E]

Right.

[A]

We have placed cultural value on deer. We've placed cultural value on the landscape, on nature's ability to make this creature.

[E]

Right.

[A]

When one gets big, it's celebrated, but it's like a cultural value around wild places and wildlife in nature. And they've. And they kind of. They've kind of looked at this, and they're like, oh, got it. Big antlers.

[E]

Yeah. Right. That's what we want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, they're like. They kind of missed the parts about wildlife.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

They missed the parts about mystery.

[D]

The magic.

[A]

Yeah. Like. Like the magic of a landscape producing these magnificent specimens.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're like, oh, yeah. Big old antlers. I could probably do that better in my yard. But what makes those big old antlers valuable.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Is the fact that they have cultural significance as wildlife. Meaning if they went and found a way to make cows huge. Okay. If they're like, this cow's way bigger, people aren't going to say, like, oh, at that point, I would like to pay you $20,000 to shoot one of those cows. It would be. Well, no, because that's livestock. I'm not gonna pay you to shoot that. Yeah, but they're like, no, but this has the appearance of this thing that has cultural value, and I will sell it to you because it's got big antlers, and isn't that what it's really all about?

[E]

Right, right, right. Well, and that. And that kind of takes me back to these. To the market for this. Right. Because there's. There's two sides. There's people who want to sell them, but then they need a market. And. And I just. I still don't understand. Maybe if you have a giant spread thousands of acres, you'd might be interested in this. But if you have, like 200 acres of low fence property. Like, why would you want to buy what it's going to leave?

[A]

People will do it.

[F]

It's.

[D]

It's.

[E]

It's going to be in the next.

[A]

People are smart about statistics.

[E]

I don't.

[A]

Why do they buy. Why does my wife buy scratch offs at the gas station?

[E]

Yeah, right.

[C]

She's an addict.

[A]

Because she just has an undying faith in magic and no amount of, like, no amount of logic is going to dissuade her from buying scratch offs with the kids.

[B]

Well, maybe she does it for the entertainment value.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that people will be entertained by, like, they'll buy some deer and turn. I don't know. Just like, nature isn't going to be good enough.

[F]

You know who won't buy them is CWD Deniers. Because they don't give a. Anyway.

[A]

No, they will. Because

[C]

when I heard about this, like, first I was like, oh, that's. That's not a good idea. But then shortly after that, I had a tingle of satisfaction that someone felt like they were portraying or like, pursuing a creative solution. Because CWD feels like a thing that we're probably gonna have to take a big swing at it. And, like, every tool in the toolbox needs to be explored and nothing's working right. And, like, I am satisfied to hear that someone is like, well, maybe this thing out of left field is the answer and that other people did look into it and threw cold water on it, you know, at some point. But I'm happy that, like, there are things behind the scenes that are, you know, beyond my awareness taking place, trying to solve cwd.

[A]

Agree. I totally agree. It's like, it's. Again, I've made myself a thousand times on this show, I've made myself clear that, like, much to the annoyance of certain friends of mine, the main thing I remain worried about, the main thing is that. And it's never happened. But what scares me is the idea that there would be transmission to a human being. That scares me.

[E]

Yeah, right.

[A]

That this has nothing to do with that. This is not addressing that. The other part is, you have, like. I can't help but look at where it's coming from.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

It's coming from the community that has told us all along there is no problem. So why are you all of a sudden interested in a solution? It's gotta be that there's more to the story. You have cried from every rooftop. It's a hoax. There's no problem. But now you want to fix it. I don't buy it. Something else is going on.

[F]

That's a good way to end it.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

The whole thing.

[F]

Yeah. Let's go.

[A]

Wrap it up.

[D]

Shut it down.

[B]

Steve, you were in Wisconsin two weekends go for the youth. Youth turkey hunt, weren't you?

[A]

I was there two weeks ago for the youth turkey hunt. Let me tell you why I go there because I love my friend Doug. Yeah. Also I would go there early on because Wisconsin doesn't have an age restriction. I have three kids, they're spread out. So I could go there and mentor my, for instance, my 8 year old daughter turkey hunting where she would be literally sitting in my lap as we turkey hunted. And then Doug could hunt with one of my other kids or we would team up and it became a family tradition. I think we went eight years, we've been there eight years in a row for youth turkey season. It's a family tradition. My kids have come to love Doug like a, like a, like an uncle, like a brother.

[C]

I thought you'd say like a landowner.

[A]

No, before we. They're not. That's not a concept.

[F]

Before we move on. It was something your kids kind of. Of as far as hunting turkeys. It was something they kind of graduated into.

[A]

Yes, they did. They all spent time. They all spent time. They all had to spend time just going and hanging out. Before I. Yeah. Said it was time and I have generally said it was time to like lap. Sit on my lap and turkey hunt when they were eight. That's my. Not. I don't want to call it arbitrary. That's a number I've arrived at.

[F]

Where you felt comfortable.

[A]

That's a number I've arrived at.

[B]

Well, that, that sets up this story here. Pat Durkin wrote about it themed dot com. That same weekend Steve was there, there was an accident in Wisconsin where a ment. A 35 year old. Sorry, 35. 38. I already, already lost my numbers for him. 38.

[A]

An adult.

[C]

30 something.

[E]

34. Well, 34.

[A]

34.

[B]

34. I think it, I think it's important to know his age. 34 year old was hunting with a 3 year old mentoring a 3 year old that weekend and they supposedly aimed and shot a 45 year old that was mentoring a 9 year old with a 12 gauge.

[D]

A 7 year old.

[B]

7 year old. Thanks.

[A]

It's important to point out.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

They had two hunters hit the mentor and the kid.

[B]

Kid.

[A]

A mentor and a kid.

[B]

A 9 year old.

[A]

I think we'll just get a little hung up on the details here.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

The three year old matters. The three. The three Year old.

[E]

That matters.

[B]

Yeah, that matters big time. And the 12 gauge shotgun shooting a 12 gauge.

[A]

3 years old shooting a 12 gauge for mentored youth turkey season. Okay, so let's get the fat. Let's get the facts. Yeah, hit the facts.

[B]

Youth turkey hunting weekend in Wisconsin. The 3 year old is with the 34 year old. They shoot two other hunters that are out in the field together with a

[A]

12 gauge shotgun at 35 yards.

[B]

At 35 yards. Luckily no one is fatally hurt. I think as of the writing of the article, the seven year old kid was still in the hospital but the, his mentor was, had been released. Actually they're not releasing gender so we don't know any of the genders of these hunters. But the, the people that had been shot, the, the, the mentor had been released. The kid was still in the hospital but non fatal injuries. So that's really all we know. They're not releasing a lot because they're obviously they're going to continue to investigate this situation because as you might imagine there's a lot of questions. I have a lot of questions. My first thing when I read it when I was assigned this little book report here was like, my God, how are you really gonna make a 3 year old hold and aim and fire a 12 gauge?

[A]

That's why I smell fish.

[B]

Yeah, I read the comments.

[A]

Oh, that's the only thing I can say.

[B]

I read the comments on the, on our web page and do people smell a fish? Oh yeah. 75 of them are like that 3 year old didn't pull that trigger. The mentor was just out with a three year old and was like oh, this is a way for me to get another bird 100.

[A]

I'm not buying it.

[C]

This is like a level up of I'm not watching.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not buying that. That three year old is wielding the 12 gauge. No three year old's probably its pants.

[C]

Yeah. Do they wipe their own butt?

[F]

3 year old was taking a nap.

[B]

Well, I don't raise the children.

[C]

Child some do.

[A]

I mean they don't like get up, fix breakfast.

[B]

They rarely have complete sentences.

[A]

Yeah, we should have brought a three year old in and asked him some questions.

[B]

Hey, just so you know, I tried to get one I posted this morning.

[F]

Craig's.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

On the, on the, on the company slack under the Bozeman channel. I asked does anyone have a 3 year old kid they could bring to the office to be part of the new show episode around 230? It's now they'd have to be on Camera but wouldn't be required to do much talking on saying hi. I'd like to have them to show the audience the size and stature of a three year old. To show contradiction panel of three year olds.

[D]

This would be helpful for me because when I read the age of a child, it doesn't do much.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I had the same.

[B]

They came out of a vagina three years prior. Yeah, they're just not that big yet that.

[D]

No, I know, but I just, I can't really call to mind a three year old. Okay, Helpful.

[A]

A three year old.

[D]

Helpful.

[A]

A three year old would. Let me give you for instance, a three year old would walk into a lake and their pants.

[F]

Yes.

[A]

And you wouldn't even think. You wouldn't even like think much about it.

[F]

The recoil of a 12 gauge shotgun would do great bodily harm to a 3 year old.

[E]

Yeah, it would.

[C]

Jordan said only some 3 year olds wipe their butt.

[E]

I want to amend that. Only some 3 year olds sit like aren't in diapers. None of them wipe their own. That's good.

[A]

Logical. If you have a three year old in your life, you are having. Not daily, but you are having multiple times per week encounters with their feces

[F]

getting under your feet.

[C]

Good context. Next.

[A]

It's like. That's what we're talking about.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like you get to where you'd basically. You're so used to it, you would eat it.

[F]

They.

[B]

According to CDC data.

[A]

Am I wrong?

[B]

No, I wouldn't eat it.

[F]

But I had it under my fingernails plenty of times.

[B]

According to the CDC, a typical three year old boy in the United States of America weighs 31 to 33 pounds.

[D]

It's like a big turkey.

[E]

Hold on.

[A]

Giant.

[F]

Okay, we've established it's like a very,

[B]

very, very small thing. I was telling this story to my daughter Ina, who I think she was probably 10ish when this happened, but she was still scared. She'd been shooting at 22 a bunch, but she knew the.410 had some recoil. And one day I was like, look, she had shot it once. Some tears had come. I'm like, no big deal, let's re. Let's. We'll come back in a couple months. So time passes, we're back there and I said, this time sit in my lap. Well, I made the mistake of like leaning against her back to solidify her shoulder. Yeah. And so her shoulder wasn't allowed to move back. And again, just a little 410 and we were just shooting a field load. Not, not a turkey load. But that was enough to like, more tears and to like put that away for another six months. So again, like, you can't imagine what a 12 gauge turkey load would do to a three year old.

[A]

Here's another way of putting it. This hunt, this whole incident, they're so young. They will have no recollection.

[B]

None ever.

[A]

When you think back to your first memories, your first memories are like 4, 5, 6. They will have no recollection. I'm all for this dude bringing that child out. Yep. But I think after this incident, you would have to just say for the record here, I was in charge. I was wielding that shotgun. This is should not, this is not a conversation about mentored hunting. And I was just, this should be a conversation about right here, me and

[D]

he was shooting at movement.

[A]

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[F]

There's a detail that I found. This person did not have hunter safety. They had like a military exemption. Exemption. Yeah. Which, you know, sure, it's something to think about.

[A]

But now there's all this conversation. Should we change? Like, will Wisconsin change the law? Is it too early to go? And I'm like, don't confuse this for a mentored hunt situation. Yeah, it's not a mentored hunt situation. That kid did not identify that target and aim that gun and pull that trigger.

[F]

Yeah. I think one of the best things that's happened in the last, whatever, decade, maybe 20 years, however long it's been going on, is that. But a lot of states have gotten past this minimum age thing, 12, 14 and.

[A]

But I do see pictures of like, you know, I see pictures of some ages and I'm like, man, I don't think they can even comprehend six year

[F]

old shooting a 200 inch whitetail.

[A]

Like, I don't know that they comprehend what they're doing. I even had questions and I don't. I would never tell people what to do. Like, as I, it's like I, I support the idea that it's a family decision. I started my kids hunting turkeys at 8 years old. And I did not think I waited too long. I worried that I did it too early. I never felt that I waited too long at 8.

[F]

Yep. I think that's a good age.

[A]

Never felt that I waited too long.

[F]

Yeah. That and the way it works here in Montana is they can hunt deer at 10. And I think that's just about right.

[A]

Yep. I've never, I would never complain about the 10 year old law here. When I was growing up in Michigan to hunt deer with a gun when I was a kid, no one paid attention to this rule. Everybody broke it because it was so ridiculous. You had to be 14.

[B]

Yep, I paid it.

[A]

That's too late. That's too late.

[F]

Yep.

[A]

Three too early.

[F]

All right, paddlefish time.

[A]

Yeah, we're gonna cut some stuff off.

[E]

The end.

[F]

Yeah, I'll try and move.

[A]

No, no, man. Hit the paddlefish. Then I want to hear, you know, the Spencer reports.

[F]

Living under a rock.

[A]

Spencer report.

[F]

There's been some sick puppies doing some sick shit on Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri, multiple live paddlefish have been discovered with. You got the pictures up, Phil, Are we getting there? Multiples, Multiple profane messages. I'll let you read them if you can make them out.

[A]

These are the pictures that I was sent. This is how they were cropped. Oh, you can kind of see what that one says.

[F]

So FU F mdc which is Missouri Department of Conservation. Conservation. I saw a picture of one that had paddlefish have this long snout called a rostrum. I saw one that had been cut to kind of look like those soft. What do they call them?

[A]

Saw tooth. Really?

[F]

Like disgusting. Yeah. I don't know if we've got that picture.

[A]

No. Here's someone at 20, 21 into a paddlefish. So like they're cutting it in with a razor blade.

[E]

Yeah.

[F]

Some of them were found alive but mutilated. It's just like very sick examples of like animal cruelty. The local reaction, the regional reaction around Lake of the Ozarks has obviously been pretty strong with shock and outrage. Local tackle shop manager said he'd never seen anything like this. There's concerns that it could hurt tourism in the area. The investigation, they haven't found out anything yet, but they're, they're looking at this as intentional acts of animal cruelty and vandalism against the species, possibly motivated by grievances against state conservation rules.

[A]

Well, if you're writing. Yeah, FU Missouri Department of Conservation. I have a feeling that that's not possibly motivated by animosity. They're mad about the regulatory structure.

[F]

Sure. And maybe something about keeping paddlefish maybe.

[A]

Yeah, they're mad about the regulations ROW

[F]

you know, there might, there's been some, plenty of examples of these fish being poached for their row. But this is not, this isn't that. Authorities say they're making some progress. Public's encouraged to report tips and a coalition of over a dozen fishing guide services in the area, Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, they've all pledged to chip in rewards that, that are exceeding $15,000 right now, leading to a conviction. With that kind of money, it's. If someone saw something, someone's probably going to. Going to report something.

[A]

Yeah. It's a win win. Like if you knew who was doing this one, they got to quit.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

So you can help them make them quit by turning them in and then you get 15k and scratch.

[F]

Yeah, but it's gross. And whenever something like this kind of thing, this is a little, this is a pretty, pretty strong example of it. But like I always worry like when, when a goose is like walking around A local lake with an, like an arrow sticking out of it. Like, it gets me worried about the perception of hunters and in this case, the perception, like the general perception of fishermen. Like, like just a week ago, maybe they found a mule deer doe dead in Roundup Montana that had been shot with blow gun. A blow dart killed it. It's like that kind of thing. Like, I think the worry is it's like all those hunters, you know, kind of thing. And it shouldn't. We. We shouldn't have to defend ourselves against stuff like this. It's great.

[C]

Crazy.

[A]

No, it's kind of gruesome photos, man.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And the thing is, you're talking about like a, like a very long living fish.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you're also kind of like in some cases you're mortally wounding it. It's like just getting all infected and dying.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

It's gross.

[A]

On that note, here's a segue.

[C]

Spencer is a tattoo of a paddlefish. It's his favorite animal.

[E]

Oh, how about that?

[A]

How do you know?

[C]

How do I know?

[A]

I was a joke.

[C]

Each year there are a few consistent.

[A]

Steve. So why are you allowed to go?

[C]

Spencer, I was trying to tell you that this would be a segue for you.

[A]

Oh, you were offering that.

[C]

Here's how you do it.

[A]

Hey, on that note.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Spencer over there, his favorite animal is the paddlefish.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

And he has a paddlefish tattoo.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

By golly.

[C]

Now, each year there are few consistent meteor showers that give you your best chance at seeing shooting stars. I think the biggest one is in August. There's also another notable one in November, December. These generally occur about the same time each year as the Earth passes through an area that has a trail of dusty debris that was left by a comet or an asteroid. And that's happening right now as we sit here. One of these is happening tonight.

[A]

Spooky.

[C]

April 21st is the peak of the Lyrids meteor shower. Really, this meteor shower, it's always in late April, roughly April 17 to April 26. But tonight and tomorrow night, April 22, are the two best nights of the whole show. These shooting stars are best viewed from the Northern hemisphere after moonset and before dawn. So for much of the country, that means your best viewing hours are between midnight and 6am that doesn't mean that you won't see shooting stars at 10pm you will. It just won't be quite as spectacular as that, like, midnight to 6am window. The Lyrids meteors, they don't tend to have a long Train of light. But these are prone to creating bright flashes known as fireballs. Here's some tips from NASA on good stargazing for this meteor shower. The first one's obvious. Just get away from light pollution. That means leaving the city or simply turning off your porch light. Focus your eyes in the darkest part of the sky. And if the whole sky is dark and you're able to be picky for this meteor shower, it's best to cheat your eyes to the east rather than the west. NASA says it takes about 30 minutes for your eyes to fully adapt to the darkness. So give yourself at least an hour to guarantee a glimpse. As I said earlier, the darker the sky, the better the show. Tonight and tomorrow night, we actually have a waxing crescent moon, which means just a sliver of it is illuminated. That's good news for stargazers as well. Humans have been observing this for as long as, you know, we've been on Earth. There are written accounts going back to 687 BC, that's 2,700 years ago, about the Lyrids meteor showers. One Chinese writer, he said this on the fourth month of the summer of year seven, at night, the sky is so bright that some fixed stars become invisible because of the meteor shower. At midnight, the stars fell like rain. So that that's what you have a chance to experience now during the peak of the Lyrids, which is again Tonight, tomorrow night, April 21, April 22, you can expect to see about a dozen shooting stars at its peak. But some years it's better than others. The Lyrids, when it's really good, that's called. What is it? A meteor outburst. So in 1922 and 1982, the Lyrids produced 90 meteors per hour. And in 1803, observers saw 700 per hour, which is one shooting star every five seconds.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So a dozen is what you'd expect for a baseline these next couple nights. But it has a chance to be even more grand than that. Although its peak is, is right now, as we sit here, extra shooting stars will be visible into the weekend. So as we exit the debris field on Sunday, if you're at Turkey camp this weekend, if you're out fishing in the dark, keep your eyes to the sky.

[A]

I'm gonna park my car out so people think someone's already there watching. And then I'm gonna have it all to myself, man, I'm gonna be watching. No one else can watch.

[C]

If, if you do happen to watch, witness a spectacular fireball during the Lyrids which, as I said, you know, is earlier. As I said earlier in the meteor shower, it's known for producing fireballs rather than, like, long streaks of light. Then you should go report that to the American Meteor Society. And if they get enough reports, it becomes a confirmed fireball. So I pulled a random one of these confirmed fireballs from last year to show you the pro how the process works. This was from March 7, 2025. This fireball was not part of the Lyrids meteor shower, as it was about six weeks before that. Phil has a picture of it here, showing you how these reports are gathered. It was 4:40am Mountain time. Four people witnessed a fireball that's traveling from east to west at a downward angle. It's since been categorized. This is event 14, 20, 25. So we have our first observer. This was Reagan in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, who says it's an orange fireball. They leave a note with the American Meteor Society saying, so grateful to have experienced this. Our next observer is James in Bismarck, North Dakota. James reports the fireball was light blue and white. He says it was very bright. At first I thought it was a plane moving across the sky, until I realized that it was heading towards the ground. Then it clicked that it was a fireball. It reminded me of the fuel streak of an incoming missile. I don't know how James knows that, but he said it reminded him of that third observer.

[A]

You see him saying that?

[C]

Which one?

[B]

Under persistent train.

[A]

Oh, I see there.

[C]

Third observer is Brooke in Townsend, Montana. That's just down the road from us. Brook says it had a smoke trail with shades of light blue, orange and white. She simply says that it was wild. Now, here's our. That doesn't tell us that. And here's our fourth report.

[A]

I'm always looking out for guys around the office.

[C]

Spencer in Bozeman, Montana, is our fourth witness here.

[B]

Who's that?

[C]

I like.

[A]

How dark is that?

[C]

I know. I like the sound of this guy. He reports the fireball lasted about three seconds. It was white. Here's his quote. I spend a lot of time outside at night. This was the brightest meteor I've ever seen.

[A]

Excellent report. Wow.

[C]

I mean, I trust that person. Person

[A]

establishes credentials.

[F]

You're not.

[C]

No, no, I was. I. I was thinking back. What was I doing at 4:30am I was in my hot tub. I. I had just got done traveling. I had a shoot. I shot a roast that week. I had two episodes of Trivia. My whole sleep schedule's off. So if. If I, like, wake up super early like that. I'll just go out in the hot tub. I was out in the hot tub, and I saw this fireball, and then

[A]

I went and reported. You woke up early.

[D]

You weren't. This wasn't like.

[A]

No, I wasn't down for a long night.

[C]

It was like. It was like, be up early. And I reported it, and I got to be part of event 1 4.

[A]

Congratulations.

[C]

Thank you. So if you see a particularly spectacular fireball this weekend or anytime, you know, you should go do some citizen science and. And report it to the American Meteor Society.

[A]

It's valuable to sign up that says report a fireball. It's fun and easy.

[D]

You should get attention.

[A]

Yeah. I reported a fireball ball.

[C]

It was easy. It asked you 12 questions. And some you're like, oh, what is the answer to that? You, like, really have to. So when you see one of these things, you know, put yourself in that place, like, where did it start? Where did it end? What color was it? Roughly how much time did it take for it to cross the sky? That way you can give AMS a good report.

[A]

Excellent job, man. It was a great report.

[D]

Hats off.

[A]

Here's the thing I'm thinking about y. If I tell my kids about this, they're going to want to stay up or get up. Up. And if they get up, then they're gonna be all cranky tomorrow. So it's like, do you go with. As a parent, do you go with, like, enhancing their lives and then dealing with them when they're. When they wake up and they're talking about how tired they are?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Not tell them about it.

[F]

I haven't answered this. In our house, I'm like, you can set an alarm and get up if you want. And then I just go to sleep.

[D]

Should wait till they're older where they can truly experience the whole. They can appreciate the whole experience.

[A]

You know, I'm probably gonna tell them about it, but what will happen is their mom will get them up. She's better about stuff like that. Yeah.

[C]

The gambler.

[A]

All right, buddy. Thanks for joining the news show next week. Steve on Colorado. I'm telling you what we promise it'll come event. Yeah. And I've been bumping and I've been bumping the report on the Monteverde archaeological site.

[F]

We might end up with. With a episode that's just.

[B]

I know. Bumped 80 minutes of Steve just talking

[A]

directly into the camera.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All the stuff that keeps getting bumped because my stuff's always at the end. There's no time to get to it. Thanks for joining the new show Hot. Hey, send in hot news tips. If you get them, we'll cover them. Take care. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.