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Summary

The MeatEater Podcast Ep. 871: Are Birds Actually Dinosaurs?

Host: Steven Rinella
Guest: Dr. Steve Brusatte, Paleontologist and Science Writer
Release Date: May 4, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Steven Rinella hosts Dr. Steve Brusatte—paleontologist, professor at the University of Edinburgh, and author of three acclaimed popular science books: The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs, The Rise and Reign of the Mammals, and his newest, The Story of Birds. Together, they dive into the mind-blowing idea that modern birds are living dinosaurs, explore recent fossil discoveries that bridge the gap between birds and prehistoric reptiles, and unravel the challenges of interpreting the prehistoric world. Their energetic conversation touches on everything from consulting Hollywood (Jurassic Park), to how catastrophic events shape evolution, to wild speculation about dinosaur steak. The episode is upbeat, irreverent, and packed with astonishing facts, making science accessible and relatable for all.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Dr. Steve Brusatte and His Books [03:54 – 05:13]

Brusatte introduces his trilogy of lively science books intended for general audiences, reinforcing that his goal is accessibility:

"They're pop science books, meant for everybody… I teach at the University of Edinburgh… but I try to write in a style that reaches kids and people of all walks of life." —Steve Brusatte [04:36]
His latest book, The Story of Birds, has just been released.

2. Hollywood Paleontology: Consulting for Jurassic World [05:14 – 08:01]

Brusatte has served as a scientific consultant on the most recent Jurassic World films:
- His job is to advise on dinosaur accuracy and realism:
  
  "I basically just have this line of communication... they really are interested in the science." [06:27]
- Films use real paleontological field data for authentic set design.

3. Are Birds Really Dinosaurs? [08:01 – 13:49]

Affirmation: Modern birds are not just descended from dinosaurs—they are dinosaurs:

"Modern day birds are dinosaurs. They evolved from other dinosaurs… they're the only dinosaur that lives on today." —Brusatte [08:44]
Similarities such as scaly feet were recognized as early as the 1860s, but public consciousness has only caught up recently due to fossil discoveries in China:

"The first fossils of feather-covered dinosaurs were discovered [in the 1990s]… that really sealed the deal." [10:47]

Notable Quote:

"If you're hunting turkeys, you're hunting dinosaurs." —Brusatte [09:40]

Recent Chinese fossils show feathers in stunning detail, crush old images of scaly, green, lizard-like dinosaurs, and even preserve original pigment, letting scientists infer color:

"Some of the feathers are more downy, some are elaborate quill pen feathers… And we can tell the colors—brown, black, white, ginger, iridescent…" [12:31]

4. Changing Portrayals of Dinosaurs [13:49 – 15:03]

Old children's books depicted dinosaurs incorrectly:

"They’d say, 'we’ll never know the colors of dinosaurs… covered in scales… kind of stupid.' That image has really changed now." —Brusatte [13:53]

5. Dinosaur Intelligence and Behavior [15:03 – 26:48]

Conversation about how much we really know about dinosaur behavior.
Host is skeptical of animated and film portrayals ("They never shut up!" [15:53]), especially regarding vocalization and hunting behavior.
Brusatte explains that fossil evidence supports bizarre anatomical features (e.g., pterodactyls), while behavioral details often require speculation:

"We have fossils. The fossils show us they're weird… but things like vocalizations, behaviors—those are things we don’t know directly." [17:02]
The concept of using fossilized skulls and CAT scans to study brain cavity size, allowing rough estimates of intelligence and sensory abilities:

"We can make a digital model of that brain cavity… that tells us how big the brain was, the regions… Olfactory bulbs, optic lobes, cochlea for hearing…" [24:01]
- T. rex had a "pretty big brain" for a dinosaur, strong sense of smell, good sight, and hearing—a formidable, intelligent hunter.

Notable Moment:

"T. Rex was a pretty smart, very keen hunter. It had the brawn and it had the brains." —Brusatte [25:50]

6. Paleontology as Forensics and the Rarity of Fossils [31:06 – 37:41]

Discussion of how rare fossilization really is and how most evidence comes from limited finds:

"We’re like detectives at a crime scene where there’s one hair, one fingerprint, and we’re trying to reconstruct a story." [31:06]
T. rex is better known because of its recency and range—thousands of individual bones/teeth have been found.
Fieldwork resembles prospecting, with luck and patience necessary.

7. The Asteroid Impact and Extinction Event [37:41 – 47:22]

The Chicxulub asteroid strike (near Cancun, ~6 miles wide) was cataclysmic:

"It released more energy than a billion nuclear bombs put together… everything bigger than a husky dog died." [39:51, 45:29]
Survival details: only small, lightweight animals with high metabolism and fast reproduction stood a chance, e.g., modern-style birds and tiny mammals.

Memorable Explanation:

"When the asteroid hit, your entire species had a 1-in-4 chance of surviving." —Brusatte [44:02]

8. Survivor Birds: What Did They Look Like? [49:29 – 66:43]

Only birds with beaks (no teeth), strong flight muscles, and fast growth survived:

"We’d recognize them immediately… they were small, had beaks instead of teeth, big wings and chest muscles, lightweight skeletons." [49:50, 66:14]
Specific adaptations—ability to eat seeds, quick growth, and being near water—were keys to survival.
Post-extinction, bird diversity exploded and the familiar modern groups originated.

9. Pterodactyls, Convergent Evolution, and the Limits of the Fossil Record [56:48 – 79:26]

Pterodactyls were not true dinosaurs but close reptilian cousins; all were lost at the asteroid event.
Many types of flight evolved convergently; similarities in wings and beaks are nature’s “solutions” to problems:

"Convergent evolution… if you live a certain lifestyle, there’s only a certain number of ways a body can fly." —Brusatte [60:00]
Serious difficulties remain for estimating ancient population sizes or precise behaviors without DNA or robust fossil samples; some population bottleneck insights can be found via ancient DNA, as done with mammoths, but this isn’t (yet) possible with dinosaurs.

10. Unsolved Questions and Ongoing Research [85:38 – 98:03]

Brusatte and his team are focusing on reconstructing dinosaur and extinct bird cognition by CAT-scanning fossil skulls, collaborating internationally, and comparing patterns to living animals:

"What we want to do is push our knowledge of dinosaur brains to the absolute limit." [90:37]
Another open question: Why did dinosaurs (but not their croc/salamander contemporaries) become so successful after the Triassic extinction? Factors might include speed, metabolism, or plain luck.

11. Dinosaur Lifespans and Their Ecological Impact [96:41 – 101:07]

T. rex likely lived 20–30 years; larger long-necked dinosaurs may have lived up to 50–60 years.
The ground impact of gigantic dinosaurs was enormous:

"These footprints are the size of car tires… the ground is just totally chewed up, mashed up by dinosaur footfall after footfall… There’s actually a scientific term: dinoturbation." [99:00]

12. Mass Extinction and Human Vulnerability [101:07 – 115:48]

Rinella asks Brusatte to speculate on how humanity might go extinct: asteroid, pathogen, nuclear war, or genetic bottleneck.

"If things change really quickly, that could put us in trouble. There are plenty of species that are a lot older than us that are probably better adapted, more resilient." —Brusatte [108:16]
Concerns center on catastrophic changes outpacing our ability to adapt, not on the fate of Earth itself:

"When I talk about concern about modern climate change… I'm more concerned for us… the Earth will be fine." [111:16]

Optimistic Finale:

"Within a few thousand years at most [after the asteroid], you have forests again… the Earth always bounces back… So we should appreciate our part in the Earth and where we fit in, and take pride and joy in this glorious world around us." —Brusatte [111:00, 112:43]

Notable Quotes & Moments

[09:40] Brusatte: "If you're hunting turkeys, you're hunting dinosaurs."
[25:50] Brusatte: "T. Rex was a pretty smart, very keen hunter. It had the brawn and it had the brains."
[13:53] Brusatte: "Those books I read as a kid… would say, 'We'll never know the colors of dinosaurs.' That image has really changed now."
[45:29] Brusatte: "Everything bigger than a husky dog died… If you were smaller, you had a better chance to survive."
[60:00] Brusatte: "It's what we call convergent evolution… if you live a certain lifestyle, there's only a certain number of ways that a body can fly."
[99:00] Brusatte: "There's actually a scientific term: dinoturbation… A rock so thoroughly obliterated by the footfalls of dinosaurs it leaves a telltale sign."
[111:00] Brusatte: "Within a few thousand years at most… you have forests again. The Earth always bounces back."
[112:43] Brusatte: "We should appreciate our part in the Earth and where we fit in, and take pride and joy in this glorious world around us."

Major Timestamps

03:54 — Brusatte's books and paleontology career
05:33 — Hollywood science consulting
08:01 — Are birds dinosaurs?
10:47 — The Chinese feather fossils “seal the deal”
13:53 — Changing dinosaur portrayals
15:03 — What can we really know about dinosaur intelligence?
24:01 — CAT scans, brain cavities, and T. rex senses
31:06 — Fossilization’s rarity; T. rex sample size
37:41 — Chicxulub impact details, extinction mechanics
49:29 — Birds that survived (traits and adaptations)
56:48 — Pterodactyls and convergent evolution
73:37 — Limits of the fossil record; DNA insights
85:38 — Ongoing research: dinosaur brains/cognition
96:41 — Dinosaur lifespans
101:07 — Human extinction scenarios
109:58 — How long does it take for Earth to recover?
112:43 — Earth’s resilience and conservation optimism

Closing Thoughts

This episode blends fossil science with lively stories and existential questions. By the end, listeners will not only accept that "turkeys are dinosaurs" but also appreciate how recent discoveries, clever technology, and good old fieldwork are rewriting our knowledge of life on Earth. Brusatte’s optimism about science, education, and Earth's resilience provides an uplifting finish—reminding us that while humanity is temporary, the natural world is persistent, mysterious, and staggeringly beautiful.

For more from Dr. Steve Brusatte, check out his latest book, "The Story of Birds," as well as his prior bestsellers. He loves hearing from readers—reach out via his website or social media for discussion and science recommendations!