Ep. 895: Project Punt Gun | 12 in '26

Summary

The MeatEater Podcast Ep. 895: Project Punt Gun | 12 in '26

Release Date: June 26, 2026
Host: Spencer Newarth (for this episode; Steven Rinella present)
Guests: Seth Morris, Max Barda, Joel Collander (Rock Island Auction)
Theme: Project Punt Gun—History, restoration, and epic firing of a legendary waterfowling firearm, as part of the "12 in '26" film series.

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Episode Overview

This episode spotlights the team’s journey acquiring, firing, and showcasing a 140-year-old punt gun—a massive waterfowling firearm used by market hunters in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. The hosts share behind-the-scenes stories from their “12 in ‘26” film project, answer plenty of listener questions about the gun and its use, delve into punt gun and market hunting history, and close with an in-depth interview with Joel Collander from Rock Island Auction, where their punt gun will soon be up for sale to raise funds for the MeatEater Land Access Initiative.

The episode is refreshingly irreverent, brimming with hilarious banter, deep history, and wild stories about the conservation era, all while documenting a once-in-a-lifetime gun project.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is a Punt Gun, and Why Did MeatEater Get One?

• Intro to the Punt Gun Project
  • Part of MeatEater’s “12 in ‘26” film series: 12 long-form unique outdoor films rolling out throughout 2026 (02:10).
  • This episode centers on punt guns (giant shotguns used for commercial duck hunting)—a big departure from typical hunting adventures on the channel.
  • “The only thing we hunt in the punt gun episode is clay pigeons and watermelons. So very different.” —Spencer (02:46)
  • The purchase story is rooted in an offhand trivia episode from 2021, which sparked Steve's excitement:
    “If you want to get something done at MeatEater, you just need to get Steve excited.” —Spencer (09:37)
• Behind the Scenes Firing
  • Max and Seth get to fire the last shell together, literally “pulling the rope together” to discharge the gun (03:44).
  • Hilarious confusion over who actually pulled the trigger:
    “They were, like, doing a totem pole of hands. Whoever got to be closer to the trigger. Who do you think actually shot it?” —Spencer (04:56)
  • Video confirmation attempts—nobody really knows, but both are claiming the experience as their own (05:56).

2. Timeline: The Long Road to the Punt Gun

• First Mention: Trivia podcast, Dec 2021.
  • “If you want to get something done at MeatEater, you just need to get Steve excited.” (09:37)
• 2022: Punting for a punt gun—price range $4K–$20K, several failed attempts, and wild stories including a seller whose friend broke his collarbone shooting one “like a regular shotgun.” (10:26)
• May 2022 Auction:
  • MeatEater wins the larger, more prestigious Holland & Holland punt gun for exactly $20,000 (15:12).

3. Punt Gun Stats & Costs

• Historical Context
  • Made by Holland & Holland in 1885 (141 years old at time of episode; even older than Montana as a state!) (15:14).
  • Two-gauge, 7.5 ft long, 60 lbs, 9.25-in shells, original paint and stock (16:31).
• Cost per Shot
  • Only six shells made for the project—cost per shell: $1,032!
    Materials: $470, Fabrication: $480, CAD: $80 each (19:02)
  • “We are so off… $1,032. Wasted that much money on a shot.” (19:05)
• Shell Tech
  • Each shell loaded with ½ lb of #6 bismuth; custom-machined to match the original (17:33).

4. Performance & Spread

• Spread Test:
  • At 30 yards, 8'x8' spread; compared to typical 12-gauge spread of ~30-40 inches at same distance (21:26).
• Lethal Range:
  • Balloons (duck analogs) popped at 80 yards; probably lethal to birds at 100 yards with lucky pellet hits.
• Wounding Rate:
  • At edge of pattern, likely lots of crippling injuries rather than quick kills—a major problem in historical use (22:50).
• Testing Victims:
  • Watermelons, hats, clay pigeons, and paper targets—no live animals for obvious legal reasons (46:25).

5. Was the Gun Used in Market Hunting?

• Era:
  • Big years for punt gunning: 1880–1910 in North America and Europe (25:55).
  • Team suspects this particular gun was a “gentleman’s sporting gun,” possibly custom-ordered for recreational use, not full-time market hunting (27:20).
• Condition & Features:
  • Still 95% original paint; engraved stock and barrel likely special order/craftsmanship (28:13, 65:27).

6. Safety Considerations & First Firing

• Initial Worries
  • “Were you worried about it exploding?”
    — “I was a little bit. I was behind a vehicle.” —Max (29:22)
  • Difficulty getting the first shell into the historic breach—required in-field tinkering, cleaning, and shell sandpapering (30:16).
• Mount Design
  • Custom mount with a trunnion for safe, recoil-allowing firing—lessons learned as they went (31:06).
  • “After that first shot, we, like, slowly trusted the gun more and more. Our rope shrunk a little bit.” —Steven (30:30)

7. Historical Market Hunting Context & Impact

• Market Prices (1886):
  • Plover: 25¢ ($9 today); Snipe: 30¢; Teal/Wood Duck/Wigeon: 75¢ per pair; Canvasbacks/Redheads: $1.75 each ($62 today) (41:02).
  • Duck value depended on diet/region—canvasbacks from wild celery beds most prized by fine restaurants (42:26).
• Decline of Punt Guns:
  • Outlawed after Migratory Bird Treaty Act, 1918.
  • Already going out of favor due to better shoulder-fired repeating shotguns (35:43).

8. Could a Punt Gun Be Useful for Anything Else?

• Aside from Waterfowl...
  • “Snow geese?” —Steven (32:39)
  • Turkeys in winter flocks, starlings, maybe feral hogs with baiting—anything extremely flocked/aggregated (34:18).
  • “Anything short of an elephant, you could kill anything with a punt gun.” —Spencer (33:00)
• Reloads/Loads:
  • Could it shoot buckshot, odd loads? Absolutely. (34:42)

9. Most Unexpected Discoveries

• Destructive Power
  • “The damage it did to the watermelons was a little unexpected. …I thought it’d be less for some reason.” —Max (36:09)
• Volume/Noise & Shot Pattern
  • Shocked by how quiet it actually was, and how effective/consistent the monstrous pattern was at range (36:24, 36:59).

10. The Auction & Its Purpose

• Raising Funds
  • Punt gun and spent shells to be sold at Rock Island Auction; proceeds benefit the MeatEater Land Access Initiative (21:21, 51:13).
  • “Every penny is going into the land access initiative. So you’re funding a good cause.” —Spencer (47:22)
• Hats for Sale
  • Limited run of 73 “This Hat Was Shot by a Punt Gun” hats, each uniquely pockmarked by real shot, $75 each for land access (47:26).
• Interview with Joel Collander, Rock Island Auction
  • Posits the gun will fetch $20K–$30K, as it’s rare, fully functional, and documented (52:09).
  • Only about two dozen punt guns appear at auction since 1993, and never one with documented live fire in recent decades (55:13, 62:04).
  • Explains the difference between punt gun, pigeon gun, and fort gun (58:18).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On acquiring the gun:
  “As my dad always said, you can’t lose your ass on punt guns.”—Steven (11:57)
• On Steve’s enthusiasm:
  “Steve was interested when it was $4,000–$8,000. So some strong negotiating by me to get us up to $20,000.” —Spencer (12:22)
• On the cost of firing:
  “It was $1,032. We are so off per shell. Oh God.” —Spencer (19:02)
• On market hunting:
  “Some historians think that is where the phrase ‘get your ducks in a row’ comes from.” —Spencer (33:00)
• On what else to shoot:
  “Anything short of an elephant, you could kill anything with a pot gun. But the ideal scenario is… doing one shot that brings down a hundred of them at a time.” —Spencer (33:00)
• On why Gallagher matters:
  “I don’t think we would be doing this podcast today, we wouldn’t have bought the punt gun if Gallagher didn’t exist.” —Spencer (38:28)
  • Steve gets to explain Gallagher (the watermelon-smashing comedian) and why he’s a legend (38:43).
• On giant gun logistics:
  “Our punt gun, when we bought it, it showed up in a literal crate, I think multiple crates actually.” —Spencer (63:56)
• On auction audience:
  “There’s a pretty good game, pretty good gamut of cross sections of collectors there: sporting arms, British guns, wing shooters, or just people who like big display pieces or things that go boom.” —Joel Collander, Rock Island Auction (54:39)
• On punt guns at auction:
  “As far as a true punt gun like yours… No, I’ve never seen one even thought about being fired.” —Joel Collander (62:04)
• On the project’s legacy:
  “Yeah, that might be the… last punt gun I ever shoot.” —Max (48:18)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:10 – Spencer introduces the episode, “Project Punt Gun” as the most different of their 12 in 2026 films.
• 03:44 – Behind-the-scenes of Max & Seth firing the gun together.
• 08:40 – Earliest mention of the punt gun on a MeatEater episode (Dec 2021 trivia).
• 09:38 – Steve’s enthusiasm rockets project forward.
• 13:34 – Auction day drama: They lose first punt gun, but win the second.
• 15:14 – The stats: Make, age, size, tech.
• 17:33 – Shell cost and manufacturing explained.
• 19:02 – The jaw-dropping $1,032-per-shell figure revealed.
• 21:26 – Pattern and range test details.
• 25:55 – Peak market hunting era and historical context.
• 29:18 – Safety/construction/first-of-its-kind firing notes.
• 32:35 – Could it be used for anything besides ducks? Creative ideas surface.
• 36:09 – Most surprising result: destructive power and surprisingly soft boom.
• 41:02 – Duck price hierarchy, historical markets explained.
• 51:13 – Interview with Rock Island Auction’s Joel Collander.
• 52:09 – Predicted auction value and rarity explained.
• 58:18 – Difference between punt, pigeon, and fort guns explained.
• 62:04 – Has Rock Island ever sold a punt gun ready to fire? (No!)
• 67:49 – Other big items in the August auction teased.
• 69:37 – Auction details: Highlight catalog, how to buy.
• 70:01 – Wrapping up with calls to action—watch the film, buy a hat, bid on shells/gun for conservation.

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Final Thoughts

• Conservation and Culture:
  The episode beautifully entwines wild history, irreverent friendship, and modern conservation—turning a forgotten market tool of exploitation into a means for public good.
• Unique Offering:
  The Holland & Holland punt gun is more than a showpiece; it’s a living artifact, now documented in both film and this epic podcast episode.
• Watch & Bid:
  Watch the film on the MeatEater YouTube channel; support conservation via the hat, shell, or even the punt gun auction—all proceeds to MeatEater’s Land Access Initiative.

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For more info and to bid:
rockislandauction.com (see highlight catalog mid-July, auction Aug. 21–23, 2026)

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“Old guns are cool. Big guns are cool. This is as old and as big as it gets.” —Spencer Newarth (70:03)

Transcript

[Steven Rinella]

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[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Spencer Newarth]

Welcome to the me to your podcast. I'm Spencer Newarth, joined today by Seth Morris and Max Barda. Today's episode is a little different. We are going to be talking all about punt guns. If you're not aware. We bought one a few years ago, then we shot it. We filmed the whole process and you can Go watch that right now on the Meat Eater YouTube channel. This is our fifth installment in the 12 and 26 series that we're doing this year. That's 12 long form films that we're dropping in 2026. This film is probably the most different of everything that you'll see on our channel. The other episodes have more traditional outdoor adventures where Yanni does an archery bear hunt. Clay chases mountain lions with hounds. The only thing that we hunt in the punt gun episode is clay pigeons and watermelons. So very different.

[Steven Rinella]

And some balloons.

[Spencer Newarth]

And some balloons. And some paper targets. And some hats we'll talk about in a little bit. So this is a story about conservation and a very badass gun. So today we are going to be answering your questions about the punt gun. Although Steve and I host the film, Max and Seth were there every time we shot the thing, so they got real familiar with it. And then Seth and Max even got to shoot it. We had six shells with us. Steve and I shot five of them. We had a sixth one. We said, what should we do with this thing? Should we just throw it in the river? And then Max and Seth, they said, no, no, no, let us shoot it. So. And so we have a piece of the film here that didn't make the final cut.

[Steven Rinella]

This is behind the scenes.

[Spencer Newarth]

This is behind the scenes.

[Max Barda]

Yeah, this is. This is a real look behind Max

[Spencer Newarth]

and Seth shooting the punt gun.

[Max Barda]

This is a nice moment.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. This has really bonded our friendship.

[Spencer Newarth]

I'll tee it up with this real quick. Sorry. We only had one shell left, but two people who wanted to shoot it, so they were going to pull the rope together. That's how you fire the punt gun, is you pull this rope that's like, I don't know, two feet long. And so they. They were very kind and they pulled the rope together. But I noticed something in the film.

[Steven Rinella]

I know what you're gonna say.

[Spencer Newarth]

Play. Play it for us, Phil.

[Joel Collander]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

Yes.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Oh, he unaimed it.

[Max Barda]

That's good. Okay. Unaimed it.

[Spencer Newarth]

Seth brings back the hammer. He got that on ready?

[Steven Rinella]

On three.

[Max Barda]

Hold on. Ready?

[Joel Collander]

Yeah. Hold on. One, two, three.

[Spencer Newarth]

All right, so what I. What I wanted to bring up is Seth has his hand on the rope and then Max trumps him and reaches in front of Seth's hand to get to grip further up the rope. And then Seth says, well, hold on. And then he reaches in front of Max's hand again.

[Max Barda]

I didn't even notice that.

[Steven Rinella]

It was just like a little pat cake or whatever that was.

[Max Barda]

That's right.

[Spencer Newarth]

They were. They were, like, doing a totem pole of hands. Whoever got to be closer to the trigger. Who do you think actually shot it? Which one of you pulled the rope?

[Steven Rinella]

I felt like I had more on it. I felt pretty equal, I thought even I think so.

[Max Barda]

I was more on your hand, not on the rope.

[Joel Collander]

Almost holding my hand too.

[Spencer Newarth]

Phil, can we see it again? Could you, like, really slow it down? Let's get a good look at who may be. And then, Phil, you help us decide here.

[Max Barda]

Okay.

[Spencer Newarth]

Which one of these two shot the punt gun?

[Max Barda]

Okay, so Hammer's back. Going to grab. Yep. Max grabs in front of. Of him.

[Joel Collander]

Yep.

[Max Barda]

Cute. Hold on. Wait a minute.

[Steven Rinella]

I had the majority. I had, like, the little anchor point.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, now we're gonna shoot it. Here we go.

[Joel Collander]

I think both looks pretty slacky.

[Max Barda]

Yeah, it's hard that.

[Spencer Newarth]

Look, it looks like Seth.

[Max Barda]

It looks like Seth's jacket starts the motion first. Okay. See that there?

[Spencer Newarth]

But then I felt like Max had a more aggressive. We'll call it 50. 50. Wow, look at this fire.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm still gonna say I've shot a punt gun whether Seth pulled it or not.

[Spencer Newarth]

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I was thinking about this. I think. I don't think there's ever been a punt gun in Montana before this, Would you say? That's a pretty fair point.

[Spencer Newarth]

I mean, this is not punk gun country.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

These things are used way east. The Chesapeake Bay in Europe. That's a good point, Max. If I had to guess if one came through here. No.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

You know, yeah. We're going to talk to Rock Island Auction later in the show. Those are the guys who sold us the gun that are then going to resell it. All that money is going to go back to the Meat Eater Land access initiative. But leading up to us buying the punt gun, they had mentioned that sellers will come to them and say, I have a punt gun that I want you guys to sell. But in reality, it's not a punt gun. It's what they would call to be a pigeon gun or a fort gun. Now, ours, like, hits the nail on the head for the definition of a punt gun. I bet there. There were obviously fort guns here at some point, maybe some pigeon guns, even though I don't think that was in Montana's culture either. But as far as the only punt gun. That's a good point, Max. We're going to call that the first punk.

[Steven Rinella]

I would say so, yeah.

[Max Barda]

Unless there's some, like, private collectors, you know.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Max Barda]

Probably not, though.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. So on today's episode. We're going to answer your questions and then we have that interview with Rock Island Auct. So those guys are the expert on old firearms that we're going to chat with them and that's going to be a lot of fun. Here's the first question. This is from Nick Sakoski. He says feels like ages ago when first discussed. Exactly when was the first conversation about it? Nick is referring to the punt gun. He's right. This has been a long time coming for Nick. I tried to get us the cleanest timeline of the punt gun leading up to us buying it. The first time it was discussed, it was in December of 2021 on an episode of Meat Eater Trivia. Trivia was still in its infancy. It was so young, in fact, that the episode that this happened on, it was just called Game On Suckers. That episode didn't even have a number after it. For context, the episode that came out this week is CC X X I I. That's. What is that, Max, in Roman numerals?

[Steven Rinella]

Don't ask me.

[Max Barda]

No clue.

[Spencer Newarth]

222. I was gonna say that's 222 in Roman numerals. So the episode we talked about this on didn't even have a Roman numeral. It was literally the first episode that said Game On Suckers. Now, like, wasn't our technically our first episode of Meat Eater trivia because there was a period where we would do trivia and it was like a kangaroo episode inside of a regular episode. This was the first time we pulled that away and made its own show. Anyway, just some background for you.

[Steven Rinella]

What was the question? Do you remember?

[Spencer Newarth]

Phil's going to play it for us again. This is that on that episode in 2021 versus you. Play the clip, Phil.

[Max Barda]

Yeah. So Spencer, for this question, Spencer actually showed the room a picture of the punt gun and asked what it was called. So here's the audio of the the rest.

[Joel Collander]

Oh.

[Spencer Newarth]

The correct answer is the punt gun.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Oh, man, I'm glad I got the

[Spencer Newarth]

average punt gun range from a two gauge to a four gauge and could fire over a pound of pellets at once.

[Steven Rinella]

Wow.

[Spencer Newarth]

They are very rare and hard to come by though. I was able to find a few in online auctions ranging anywhere from $4,000 to $10,000.

[Max Barda]

You could buy one.

[Spencer Newarth]

You could buy one. Are you gonna buy one?

[Joel Collander]

No.

[Spencer Newarth]

Unless you like pony up 5,000 bucks. Yeah, that looked real good on my wallet.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

I don't know how serious you were, you know.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah, because we could shoot it I

[Spencer Newarth]

would love to have that all in this room. That's the genesis, that's the beginning of it. You know, Max knows this, Seth knows this. If you want to get something done at media, you just need to get Steve excited.

[Max Barda]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

So as you can hear, Steve was excited about it and it didn't take long until like those sort of maybe should we, could we to Steve is like, yes, let's, let's get a punt gun. So here's the rest of that timeline again. That was December 2021. January 2022. I found some punt guns online. They range in price from $4,000 to $8,000. I talked to one seller, he said that him and his bud, theirs, they stood back to back. And what they did was they had one guy who stood in front and he let the barrel rest on his shoulder and then the other guy stood behind him and he sort of pressed the butt of the punt gun against his shoulder. Just like if you were shooting a regular shotgun when they pulled the trigger. That guy said that his buddy had his collarbone broken.

[Steven Rinella]

Just like an episode of Jackass.

[Spencer Newarth]

It's exactly like that.

[Max Barda]

That sounds like a terrible idea.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah, bad idea. We didn't buy any of those pont guns. Just I, I think some of floated closer to the category of pigeon gun, which, which we'll learn about later. Just, just didn't love any of those. So we didn't buy them. But, but again, this is the timeline of how it unfolded. February of 2022, I found a five footer at an antique mall in Wisconsin. I called them, they wanted fifty five hundred dollars for it. The seller was unsure if it would shoot, didn't want to change the price. And that was an important thing to us. We wanted to buy a punt gun that was, we think would work. And so because we couldn't figure out if that one would actually fire, we, we walked away there. February 2022, someone reaches out to me with a hot tip that Rock Island Auction has two of them coming up for sale that summer. Again, Rock island, they're the biggest auction house when it comes to historic guns. Here's some examples of the guns that they have sold in the past. Han Solo's DL44 heavy blaster that sold for $1 million. They sold two Remington revolvers that were owned by Ulysses S. Grant. Those sold for $5 million. And then they sold a Winchester 1886 with the serial number one. So literally the first ever Winchester 1886 that sold for $1.2 million. Just to give you an idea of like the kind of guns that they traffic. That's who had two of these punt guns for sale.

[Max Barda]

Dang.

[Spencer Newarth]

March of 2022. Here are some emails with Steve. Here was one where he said, quote, as my dad always said, you can't lose your ass on punt guns. I don't know if Steve's dad actually said that, but I like, you know, it'd be like as Abraham Lincoln said, you can't trust everything you read on the Internet. Like, I feel like that's what Steve was doing, but I'm just like trying to give you more context of how excited Steve was about this. The next day he says, I can't wait to mount it to a boat and set out some soda bottles like ducks. Here's an email from a few weeks later. He says, we gotta buy the damned punt gun. We're poised and ready. And then a week after that, he says, this will change our lives. And then he put in parentheses for the better. So Steve, Steve is now excited. And I ended up getting approved a budget here at meat eater of $20,000 to buy a punt gun. And as we talked about on that old podcast from December, Steve was interested when it was like four to $8,000. So some, some strong negotiating by me to get us up to $20,000. Okay, May of 2022. This is the day of the auction. Again, $20,000 budget, not a penny more. Rock island has two punt guns up for auction. First punt gun, this was the one. If, if I just got to pick like which one we were going to have, I would want the second one. That's the one. We ended up getting the first punt gun. It was a smaller model, less prestigious brand. Rock island estimated that it would sell for between $12,000 and $18,000. I bid up to our ceiling of $20,000. Two bidders blow right past me. The gun sells for 25,000.

[Max Barda]

Wow.

[Spencer Newarth]

7,000 more than the high end estimate.

[Steven Rinella]

I wonder what those people are doing with it, you know, like, why do they want it so bad?

[Spencer Newarth]

I don't know. I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask Rock Island Auction later, like, who is the buyer? What does this person look like? What are they going to.

[Steven Rinella]

Cause we have a reason, you know, in.

[Max Barda]

Yeah, we had a goal.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

And they're probably not going to shoot theirs, you know.

[Steven Rinella]

Probably not.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. So that was Punt gun number one. $7,000 over its high end estimate. Second punt gun, this is the one that we want. It's much bigger, it's older, it's From a more prestigious brand. That's Holland and Holland Rock island estimated that one would sell for between 16,000 and 22,500. So if it follows the pattern as the last punt gun, that means this one's going to sell for 30,000. It's basically me and one other bidder, and I assume that this other person is the odd man out from the last punt gun auction. They went back to back these two. These two auctions. Bidding goes fast. I quickly get to the ceiling of $20,000, and then it just ends. The other guy doesn't go anymore, which I was kind of shocked at at the time. I didn't think it was going to work out. But it. But it was a big relief because that was the gun that we wanted to be.

[Max Barda]

This guy went past 20 grand for the first punt gun.

[Spencer Newarth]

He. I don't know. I don't know that it was him who. I just assumed that he was the odd man out who didn't win the smaller one for sure. And. And if. If he would have went to $20,000 and one penny, I. I'd have been out and he didn't do it.

[Steven Rinella]

Come on. No, you wouldn't. You would have pitched in of, like,

[Joel Collander]

your own 100 bucks. You know what?

[Spencer Newarth]

I. I think I could have. I could have explained it away to Steve later. I'd be like, steve, it was going to get away.

[Steven Rinella]

What do you want me to do? You know?

[Spencer Newarth]

Exactly. So that. That is the origin. That is how we got the punt gun back in May of 2022. All right, next question here. This is from outdoors. Biggie, he says, what are the punt guns stats? All right, it was made by Holland, in Holland in 1885. So that makes it 140 years old. 141 years old. I think six years younger than the light bulb, a decade older than the radio, and it's actually older than the state of Montana. Just to give you some context of, like, the technology that we're working with, this would be the equivalent of someone taking a gun out of Max's safe that he just bought today and then shooting it in the year 2166. You can't even fathom, like, well, what's the world gonna look like in 2166? I have no idea. But that'd be like if someone took Max's brand new gun that he got today and then shooting at that.

[Steven Rinella]

I was gonna say, hopefully, like, my kids are gonna be doing that. But I was like, oh, no, I gotta add a couple more decades, maybe

[Spencer Newarth]

a Lot of kids, My kids.

[Max Barda]

Kids, kid, you know, great grandkids.

[Spencer Newarth]

They'll be talking about how, you know, great, great, great grandpa Maxwell shot a punt gun back in the day.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh yeah, that'd be.

[Spencer Newarth]

They're going to think family story old.

[Steven Rinella]

Wow.

[Max Barda]

Hopefully they'll still be able to look up the video maybe.

[Spencer Newarth]

That's right. Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

That's.

[Max Barda]

Who knows.

[Spencer Newarth]

More stats. It's a two gauge shotgun. If you listen to trivia, you know this, but when something is listed as a gauge, if you have a 12 gauge shotgun, that means you take 12 balls that fit in, 12 lead balls that fit in the end of a 12 gauge barrel, and that equals a pound. So that means that if you had two lead balls that fit in the end of our barrel of our punt gun, that would make one pound. That, that is like as big as a punt gun gets. Seven and a half feet long, 60 pounds. It's an awkward 60 pounds though. Like this is always being carried by a couple people around here. Nine and a quarter inch shell. It's original walnut stock. And then it has a gray paint that Rock island told us is the original gray paint. And it has about 95% of that left on it.

[Max Barda]

So there's.

[Spencer Newarth]

Those are the punt gun stats. All right. Chase Howard says if you can answer, what's the overall cost per shot? We had six shells. Max and Seth, take a guess as to each what each one of those shells cost.

[Steven Rinella]

Bismuth was in it, right?

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah, it was filled with. It was a little over half a pound of number six bismuth. And the shells were made of brass that I think was nickel plated. So that's, that's the, what we're working with. And yet it was a nine inch shell, half a pound of number six bismuth. What do you think that cost us?

[Steven Rinella]

45 bucks a pop.

[Spencer Newarth]

45.

[Max Barda]

I was gonna say 35 a pop.

[Spencer Newarth]

Way, way more way.

[Max Barda]

Really?

[Spencer Newarth]

Take another guess.

[Max Barda]

135.

[Spencer Newarth]

I'll give you some more context. The punt gun came with one singular spent shell that seemed to be original to the gun. Like that shell that, that came with the gun was probably fired out of that gun. It was made for that gun, you know, 140 years ago, that's we had that thing to work off of. We had to pay a machinist, an engineer to do some cad drawings for us to figure out what the best materials are. Ship this thing across the country, which they didn't ship. They actually drove it over here. Personally, you can't, because it was like basically an explosive. At that point we joked about this. I don't think it was ever in the film, but like when you're handling one of those things, you're like, do not drop that.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, so take another guess.

[Steven Rinella]

You said 130. Well, after all that, imagine if it was TSS in there.

[Spencer Newarth]

Imagine like what does a TSS shell cost right now? 20 bucks.

[Steven Rinella]

It's right around that. 15, 20 buck right here. 150.

[Max Barda]

I'm going to go like 2, 220.

[Spencer Newarth]

$1,000.

[Seth Morris]

What?

[Spencer Newarth]

It was $1,032. We are so off shell. Oh God. Okay, so that's roughly here.

[Steven Rinella]

Wasted that much money on a shot.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah, I don't think. I didn't know it until Chase Howard asked this question. I was like, I don't know, probably like, you know, 200 bucks a shell. And I went and looked up our Invoice. It was 400. This is per shell. $470 in materials, $480 in fabrication and assembly, and then a $500 flat fee for doing the CAD work to make it all possible. So divided by six, that's another $80 per shell for a grand total of over $1,000 a shell.

[Max Barda]

We're way off.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, but surely they didn't cost that much back then when people were actually using punk.

[Spencer Newarth]

I mean, I can't fathom that they did.

[Max Barda]

Just if you adjust for.

[Spencer Newarth]

Although I bet it was expensive because a lot of, a lot of punt guns back then were loaded through the barrel. Right. Like you drop down a scoop full of gunpowder and then like a, probably a cardboard wad and then a handful of, of pellets. Ours is breech loading, so it's loaded more like a traditional shotgun. I bet those things were expensive to make back then as well.

[Max Barda]

I wonder if you get, if you get a flock of ducks on the water, how many rounds of like 12 gauge bismuth would it take to kill the amount of ducks one shot of the punt gun kills?

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, that's good. We'll never know. Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

Twenty thousand dollar punt gun and then, you know, it only takes 20 shells to equ of that. Now with, with our auction, when we auction this thing off in August, you are getting one of the spent shells. Actually you're getting two. You're getting the OG One that we based our modern ones off of. And then you're getting one of those modern spent shells. That way if you want to shoot this thing, you can go have your thousand dollar shells made as well. All right. 86, Spencer says. Did you figure out approximately how big the spread would be or its lethal distance? Our first shot was to determine exactly that. I think we wound up. It was like an 8 foot by 8 foot spread at 30 yards. If you were going to shoot a 12 gauge at 30 yards max would like a 30 inch spread. Is that what you'd expect? Yeah, I mean I know there's a lot of factors.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. Different chokes and stuff but yeah, I mean you're probably, if not maybe like a 40 inch.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay. 30 or 40 inch spread at 30 yards with a 12 gauge. So we were like three or four

[Steven Rinella]

and that's probably a pretty open choke. Probably.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

So like 4x that was our spread. As you'll see in the film. We do some different tests to be like if we were shooting ducks on water, which, which we replicate with balloons, we put balloons from like 20 yards out to 80 yards. We pop the balloons out at 80 yards. Lethal distance. I bet you could kill a duck with a BB in the right place at 100 yards, don't you think?

[Max Barda]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

Like if one of those found the, the brain of a mallard.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

That's a dead mallard at 100 yards.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Max Barda]

It would have been interesting to maybe do like a watermelon at 100 yards just to see like how. Yeah. The penetration of those pellets or you know, something that could, you could measure the penetration or ballistics gel or something.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah.

[Max Barda]

At 100.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. I think if, if a punk owner used this, they would like kill some ducks dead. Dead at 20 yards. Like those things would be obliterated. Probably not even going to make it to market. And then they would have some that you know, know just get one BB in the right place beyond 100 yards. But I bet they were wounding.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I bet there's so many crippled and like. Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking about this earlier. I was like, yeah. So after like one or two shots of the punt gun is like what are they going to do with all the cripples? You know, they have to like round those up too.

[Max Barda]

Or maybe they had some shotguns in the boat.

[Steven Rinella]

I would have to imagine that's what I would do.

[Max Barda]

Some birds off.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah, I imagine at, at the edge of that spread. It's just like you probably wounding maybe as many as you're killing at that point. There's just a lot of ducks that aren't probably flying away from that scenario but aren't dead either.

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[Spencer Newarth]

Silas Hay says, do you think your punt gun was used? If so, when and where? We're going to talk about this with with Rock Island a little later. But the peak punt gun era was roughly from 1880 to 1910. That's in both North America and Europe. Our gun is from 1885. So it comes around like right at the beginning of when punt gunning was really hot. Now Argon shows some signs of use. Like there's a little chipping in the paint, it's missing a screw. It has signs of where it places where it would be attached to something. A lot of punt guns at that time like wound up just in the bottom of lakes, in the bottom of rivers, in the bottom of estuaries. Ours survived 140 years so I don't think it was used a ton, but I bet it shot into some flocks of birds. And someone along the way thought that the engraving was potentially a custom job on our punt gun.

[Steven Rinella]

Like on the handle it's got.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah, so it's got a walnut stock that's like, I don't know, 12 inches long or so. That's got some engraving and then there's some engraving. Barrel meets the, the stock as well and someone pointed that out and they're like that. That looks like it would be custom, you know, that was a special order to Holland in Holland. The other thing I learned is when you look at the punt gun history, you'll find there were obviously like these were used by blue collar hunters that were making a living off of selling ducks and geese. You'll find instances though where they're sort of like punt gun tourists who are, you know, a well off newspaper owner in London, in London, like a well off banker in England who just wants to experience the thrill of doing a punt gun hunt without any evidence at all. I think that's who bought this punt Gotcha. I think it's one of those folks who like, they weren't doing this for a living but they enjoyed, you know, hunting and the outdoors and they wanted to go try this sporting thing. So they like, you know, commissioned Holland and Holland to make them a beautiful punt gun with some custom engravings and then I bet they went and used it a few things. But I don't Think this was used by, like, a market hunter who was living in a shack, and this was, like, his for making.

[Max Barda]

I wonder. You said Rock island said that that paint on there was original.

[Spencer Newarth]

They said it was original, which I think when most people look at that, they're like, no, that came around later. Rock island said it was original, and they estimated 95% of it was left.

[Max Barda]

I wonder. See, when I looked at it, I just. It looks like someone put it on there.

[Spencer Newarth]

It does.

[Max Barda]

And I wonder if that is the case that this punt gun was used, like, maybe Chesapeake Bay, salt water.

[Spencer Newarth]

Sure.

[Max Barda]

If they put that paint on there to seal it from getting rusty.

[Spencer Newarth]

You're right. Yeah. It's. It's almost. Yeah. It's kind of shocking to hear that that's original paint, because you're like, no. Somebody came around in, like, 1960 and thought they were, like, sprucing it up, and it's like. I don't have any way to. To confirm this, but it looks like a thick amount of paint.

[Max Barda]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

Like, multiple coats of gray paint went on that barrel.

[Max Barda]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

So to answer the question from Silas about was it used? I think it was used, but not used a ton. All right, next question was from Mike Steffen. How did you know it wasn't going to explode, and were you worried about it exploding?

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

Seth and Max were there every time we shot it that first time. Were you guys worried?

[Max Barda]

I was a little bit. I was behind a vehicle.

[Steven Rinella]

I was not. I was filming Steven Spencer. Their reaction. So I was. My back was to the gun, and everything is just like, fingers crossed this doesn't explode.

[Max Barda]

I was worried. I wasn't worried, like, the. The barrel was going to explode or anything. I was worried about the integrity of the breach.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Max Barda]

Like, stuff blowing out the back. Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

A little bit of this shows up in the cut. But the first time we went to shoot the gun, it was like, a pretty cold day, and I guess we hadn't fully confirmed that the shells fit inside of the barrel at that point. So we get there, and we realize that it's just, like, very, very close, but it's not making it into the barrel. So Steve starts, you know, taking gunk out of the barrel, which is why we also thought it was used, because it had some buildup, as though it had been shot in the past.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

And I'm sandpapering the shell, and we're just, like, trying to get rid of some millimeters to make this thing work and eventually work. But that's what you were concerned about, Seth?

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

We're just, like, doing a lot of manipulating in the field, trying to make it come together.

[Steven Rinella]

After that first shot, we, like, slowly trusted the gun more and more. You know, we, like our rope shrunk a little bit.

[Spencer Newarth]

You know, we got right up to it by. By shell number six. When Seth and Max shoot it, they're, like, touching the gun. Honestly, you had full trust. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wasn't so much concerned about an explosion, but I. I guess what I was mildly concerned about was the recoil of it. You have to let a gun, like, produce recoil. You have to let it buck a little bit. If you don't. If you just clamp everything down as tight as possible, you're just, like, stressing out the mechanics of the gun.

[Max Barda]

That's.

[Spencer Newarth]

That's not good for it. And so we're like. I feel like walking a tightrope trying to let the gun recoil but not recoil too much, where it, like, becomes a danger to us. And so that felt like a balancing act. What we ended up doing was we. I found out later it's called a trunnion. A trunnion is what that connecting point was called. We had a fabricator, Travis Fabrication, here in Bozeman, who made Travis Barton. Travis Barton Fabrication.

[Joel Collander]

Yep.

[Spencer Newarth]

He. He built us a mount that we could attach to a trailer. And then we had some sandbags on that trailer. And my concern with the recoil wasn't warranted. It all worked out well. The gun was able to rise when it shot. We had to go back and sight it in each time, so worried about it exploding a little bit. And as you see in the film, like, the first time that we shoot it, Steve attaches a rope to it that was his dad's tree stand rope. Like, his dad would be in a tree stand. He needs to bring his bow up. That was the rope we used. And as you guys point out.

[Steven Rinella]

And then I think we tied another rope onto that.

[Spencer Newarth]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

To get us further back.

[Spencer Newarth]

It didn't feel like the original rope was going to be the difference between us, like, losing an arm or not.

[Max Barda]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. Okay, Next question was from Billy the Kid Rock. That's a great name. He says, do you think the punt gun would be good for hunting anything besides ducks?

[Joel Collander]

Yes.

[Spencer Newarth]

What?

[Steven Rinella]

Snow geese.

[Spencer Newarth]

Snow geese?

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

So, I mean, just another form of waterfall, but I don't know anything else.

[Max Barda]

What's those, like, starlings or sparrows that are invasive?

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, yeah.

[Max Barda]

They're always all bunched up. I bet you could. You could.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, and they do those big waves.

[Max Barda]

Yeah. You could do a hurting on those things.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, you do a hurting on a flock of winter turkeys.

[Max Barda]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

I thought that was the absolute perfect thing. Like you, any short of an elephant, you could kill anything with a pot gun. But the ideal scenario is using it, what they use it for, which is like, you know, sneaking into a flock of ducks on the water and, and doing one shot that brings down a hundred of them at a time. Some historians think that that is where the phrase get your ducks in a row comes from. It's from punt gunners waiting until they felt like they were at the perfect spot in the flock to pull the trigger. But I was thinking about what else it would be good for turkeys in, like the fall or the winter. I, I can recall a deer hunt I was in, in the Black Hills in late November, where all of a sudden I found myself in the middle of a flock of turkeys that must have been like 100 to 200 turkeys. And they were just all around me and they were moving past me and they were like mildly aware of my presence. But obviously they felt some comfort in their numbers. If you had a punt gun in that situation, you'd have been eating turkeys for years.

[Steven Rinella]

Lots of Thanksgiving meals.

[Max Barda]

I one time back in Pennsylvania that we had a hard winter and it was like a deep, crusty snow, and there was this one farmer that was spreading manure on the fields, like on top of the snow, and there was a winter flock there that I like, quit counting it. Like 900 birds.

[Spencer Newarth]

Oh, my goodness.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah, yeah.

[Max Barda]

Like birds came from all over just to be there.

[Spencer Newarth]

That that would be the perfect scenario to use a punt gun. Or if you were like baiting feral hogs, for example, I think anything that you were baiting and like creating a congregation of critters in one spot, that that would be the ideal use.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Max Barda]

Imagine you could size up shot in those things and, and put like buckshot in there, right?

[Spencer Newarth]

Definitely.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

You could probably do like a turkey load equivalent, you know, where it's like different varying sizes of pellets all at once. Now, like the, the punt gun thing, though it fought, they become illegal in North America in 1918. That's when the migratory bird act comes around. The reality is they start to fall out of fashion. Before that, you have pump, pump shotguns show up in the 1880s, semi auto shotguns in the early 1900s. And the market hunters who are using these, they kind of learn that actually we can be more efficient. We have to plan less Logistically, it's cheaper, it's easier to use. If we just go out with a shotgun we can hold against our shoulder, like, we can be better market hunters in that case. So when you're talking about, like, the punt gun being outlawed, folks were starting to go away from it, like, before it actually becomes illegal. And now, you know, this has been the case since 1918. A 10 gauge is the biggest shotgun that you can use. If market hunting was still allowed today, though, I don't think you'd see guys out there with a punt gun.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, it's just not.

[Spencer Newarth]

No. As you can see when. You know, when they cost $1,000 per shell. Yeah, that too. It doesn't work. Okay. Crank jobs says what was the most unexpected thing you learned from the experience? You guys have any thoughts on this when we were shooting it?

[Max Barda]

Honestly, the damage it did to the watermelons was a little unexpected.

[Spencer Newarth]

You thought more or less?

[Max Barda]

I thought it would be less for some reason. I just thought the pattern wouldn't be that. I don't remember how far we were away from those.

[Spencer Newarth]

I think it was like 30 yards, 35.

[Max Barda]

I just thought the pattern would be more spread. It would just be like a bunch of holes. Sure, that. And another thing I did not expect was how, like, I expected it to be way louder. Yeah, it was kind of like a soft boom.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

With that said, though, there were still. I think we experienced this and I don't know which shot, but pellets came back at us.

[Steven Rinella]

I think it was pigeon. Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

And someone. Someone noted that, like. Yeah, I got hit in the shoulder with one. Like, oh. I heard it bounce off the vehicle. So there was. There was a certain amount of that. Anything surprised you, Max, when we shot it?

[Steven Rinella]

I would say just the pattern and how good it was, you know, like, I was very impressed at 35 yards. Like when we did those paper light up targets, I was very impressed. I was like, wow, that could do some damage. You know, Like, I could see why people use that. Right. You know?

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. And. And Seth brought up the watermelon. That's the final thing in the film that we shoot. And that kind of goes back to the genesis of the punt gun. Immediately, four or five years ago when we started talking about this, Steve was like, we gotta shoot watermelons. We gotta do the Gallagher Bay. We got. We gotta go blow up a bunch of watermelons. And then that also allowed Steve to explain to people who Gallagher is, which I think he enjoyed equally as much as actually pulling the trigger to shoot the Wall. He's like, you don't know Gallagher. Well, Gallagher.

[Max Barda]

You know, based on how much Steve talks about Gallagher, I think that's the only comedian anyone knew what he was talking about.

[Steven Rinella]

I will admit I did not know what he was talking about and like figured it out.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. I would only, like my exposure to Gallagher was from second hand references. Like if Family Guy would do a bit about Gallagher, I'd be like, well, I don't know who. You know, Gallagher, he famously walked out

[Max Barda]

of a Marc Maron podcast. It was. And got really mad. Oh, yeah, it's a fun listen. He lasts like 20 minutes and then storms out.

[Spencer Newarth]

What would possibly make him so.

[Max Barda]

Because what wasn't his commentary thing was. But it was just sort of like, what's the deal with all the water? Like, he was just kind of, he was kind of poking him. He was poking the bear. Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

So I, I don't think we wouldn't be doing this podcast today. We wouldn't have bought the Punt gun if Gallagher didn't exist. Just because Steve was like so excited, infatuated with the idea of.

[Steven Rinella]

I think you got to tell people who Gallagher. Gallagher is and what he does.

[Spencer Newarth]

Steve has said this a million times, but he would smash watermelons on stage. And you would like, you know, wear a raincoat if you were in the front row because you were going to get, you know, covered in watermelon. Am I getting that right, Phil?

[Max Barda]

Yeah. I mean, I think it was more than watermelon, but the watermelon was the thing that caught on. And that's calling, that's what people remember. But it was, it was all kinds of fruits, Spencer. Not just watermelon.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, okay. Well, we, we shoot watermelons in the film. Most unexpected thing for me was like, during this research I was, I was learning, you know, about the market hunting era. And when it comes to ducks, there was only a little bit of value with the feathers. The meat was the main product. If, if these ducks didn't have the meat that they had, like this market would not have existed because the feathers weren't valuable enough on their own. The duck meat is what paid the bills and there was like a very clear hierarchy in the prices. What would you say is like the best tasting duck, Max, in North America?

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I think you ask someone, it's going to be something. And then you ask another person, it'll be something different.

[Spencer Newarth]

I'm asking Max.

[Steven Rinella]

I'm just explaining myself. But yeah, I think wood ducks and mallards are my favorite.

[Spencer Newarth]

Would you say the Same thing.

[Max Barda]

Yeah. Fatty mallard.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, well, the. The prices, like, kind of show you what the American palate was at that point. A plover, that. That's a shore bird that you'd see. It's, you know, like a little marshmallow with toothpick legs out on a gravel bar in the Missouri river. Those cost 25 cents per plover is what you would get.

[Steven Rinella]

I could see that.

[Spencer Newarth]

That is $9 per plover in 20, 26 appetizers.

[Max Barda]

Wow.

[Spencer Newarth]

An appetizer, sure. Yeah. Not. Not a highly respected bird, which is. The other thing you learn is that these guys weren't just killing ducks and geese. They were killing herons, seagulls, shorebirds, all kinds of different stuff. So a plover was worth a quarter or $9 today. A snipe was only a little more valuable at 30 cents a snipe. Teal wood ducks and widgets. That's. That's what Max said would be his top pick would be a wood duck. That was 75 cents per pair. So less than 40 cents per wood duck, which is only slightly more valuable than a snipe.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I don't. I don't agree with that. The price should have been a little higher.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. Okay, so black ducks, those were a dollar. Mallards were A$25. And then the ones that everybody cared about was canvas backs and redheads, those were a $75 a piece of. Which is the equivalent of $62 today. Yeah, $62.

[Max Barda]

Funny. I feel like I used to do some hunting on the Chesapeake Bay back when I lived in Pennsylvania. And, like, the duck to kill was a canvas back.

[Steven Rinella]

King of ducks.

[Max Barda]

Yeah. So it's like people are still after them.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. So these ducks, if you were a market hunter in Chesapeake Bay and say you went, you know, punt gunning for a night, and you killed 150 ducks, those ducks would then either be salted or iced and then put on a train. And then they would wind up in some of your premier cities in the Midwest and East Coast. Boston, Chicago, Baltimore, New York. And then these would go to, like, the finest dining restaurants. And what they cared about were canvas backs and redheads. I also read. And those prices, I should explain, those came from a good housekeeping magazine in 1886. That's one year after our punt gun was made. And they said that's what you would sell them for in New York. But the other thing I learned is that ducks fetched a higher price if they came from a place with lots of wild celery. Apparently, they thought that like, a duck eating wild celery ate better. Is that your experience, Max?

[Steven Rinella]

I've never experienced a duck eating wild celery, but I remember hearing about that just like that east coast region. Like, that's what those diver ducks would do.

[Spencer Newarth]

The three premier regions that I saw, like, if you kill the duck in this zone, that's going to fetch the highest price. That's what the restaurants want. It was the upper Chesapeake, Wisconsin's Lake Kanash Kanang, and then Texas's Lake Surprise.

[Steven Rinella]

Really? Apparently those were like all sorts of different regions, though.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah, yeah. What I feel like when I hear people talk about wood duck being the best tasting duck, which is that's not an uncommon opinion that Max has. People would say it's because they eat a lot of acorns. Is that like, what you would think it is? Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

I mean, I've had ducks that eat pond scum, taste like crap, but then also ducks that eat corn tastes really good, you know, So I feel like some of that has to play a factor in it. But I think the wood ducks, there's just a good ratio of meat to fat.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay.

[Steven Rinella]

Just because they're a smaller duck. I think the biggest ratio of meat to fat is obviously a teal, like big fat green wing deal is just like, just a small, small amount of meat and just like lots of fat. And a lot of people like, is

[Spencer Newarth]

it different for like a blue winged or a cinnamon?

[Steven Rinella]

Well, I said the green wing teal just because they're the most hearty. And a lot of times, like during the migration, you'll see the cinnamon teal. The blue wing teal go first all the way down to southern Texas, even down to parts of Central America.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

And then the green wing teal, they'll be up here hanging with the mallards in December. Some of them, not all of them.

[Spencer Newarth]

So.

[Max Barda]

So they just get more fat because they're sticking around later.

[Spencer Newarth]

Well, the wild celery is what was driving the market back then. Max, if. If you were a punt gunner, I'll explain how they were used a little bit. A lot of times it was used like, either just after dark or just before sunrise so that the punt gunner could, like, paddle into the area and be real stealthy without being seen. They had to allow for 4 yards of water behind them because that's how much recoil these produced. If you were a punt gunner, no rules. Max, you can be in a national park in August if you want. Where are you taking that thing?

[Steven Rinella]

Probably somewhere in the central flyway during the Springtime hunt. Snow geese.

[Spencer Newarth]

Oh, okay.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't know if I could do it on ducks because I like them so much, but snow geese are already a nuisance, you know, and so I feel like I would just go carpet the sky. Yeah. I would go after snow geese just because, like, they're known to roost in large numbers. And I feel like it would be a good time. But I would have three punt guns.

[Spencer Newarth]

Oh, okay.

[Steven Rinella]

One on the water, one slightly above and one slightly aimed above that.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay. Like a 20 degree angle and then like a.45.

[Steven Rinella]

So you. You smoke them on the water, they all get up, get another one and then a third shot off.

[Spencer Newarth]

What if you were trying to play the market, though, and have a bunch of canvas backs or red?

[Joel Collander]

Oh, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Then I would definitely go to the Chesapeake and you would find some canvas backs.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay.

[Joel Collander]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

Seth, any thoughts on if you were

[Max Barda]

a punt gunner, where I'd go?

[Spencer Newarth]

Where you take that thing?

[Max Barda]

I'd go that little hole that I hunted with you, Max, at one time. Okay.

[Spencer Newarth]

The secret hole. Can you even say what state you were in?

[Steven Rinella]

No.

[Max Barda]

No.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, I like that, Max.

[Joel Collander]

No, you probably watch.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, it was a. It was just a small warm water creek that. Well, it was a pond, but it was a warm water creek flowing into it. And I don't think you could fit another mallard into it.

[Max Barda]

Yeah.

[Spencer Newarth]

Could you get a punt gun there if you had to?

[Max Barda]

You couldn't have it on a boat. You could have it.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah. It would be like a canyon or just like roll it up on wheels.

[Seth Morris]

Okay.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a fork gun. Yeah, yeah.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh, that'd be fun.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. So the things we shoot in the video, we don't get to shoot any. Any live animals in the video, but we shoot some paper targets to show you it's spread. We shoot the clay pigeons.

[Steven Rinella]

There's.

[Spencer Newarth]

There's sort of a clay pigeon disaster that, that you'll watch on the video. What else? Oh, we shoot the watermelons and then we also shoot some hats. These are hats that say this hat was shot by a punt gun. And now we are going to sell those in the auction house of oddities. The auction house of oddities is going to be happening sometime in early July here. They're not going to be auctioned off the hats. They're just going to have a buy it now price. There are only 73 of them, and when they're gone, they're gone. And when you do buy one, you just get a random hat. Some of these were absolutely Destroyed that. They have, you know, 25 pellet holes in them. If you, if you shake them a little, you'll hear the BBs that are still in like the, the, the bill.

[Max Barda]

You can see some of the BB's too.

[Spencer Newarth]

Oh, yeah.

[Max Barda]

Sticking out.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. The hats, they have a leather patch on them. That's where it says this hat was shot by a punk gun. Some of those leather patches just like absorbed the bb. It looked like, you know, somebody was the hand of God and just put it there and pressed it in with their. So anyway, we have these hats for sale. There's other ones that only got one or two stray pellets in them. If you want to go buy one of these, when they're gone, they're gone. There's 73 of them in the auction house of oddities. You're just getting a random hat. Probably going to sell them for 75 a piece. I, I know that sounds steep, but every penny is going into the land access Access initiative. So you're funding a good cause. We are also selling the punt gun shells in the auction house as well. We're going to have three of them that are for sale again this July when that's happening. Guys, have any other thoughts before we do our interview with Joel from Rock Island?

[Steven Rinella]

I was glad to be a part of it.

[Max Barda]

Yeah, that might be the. I'm assuming it'll be the last punt gun I ever shoot.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, same this person.

[Spencer Newarth]

Last and last. And you guys got a video of you doing it together.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah, I know. Teamwork.

[Spencer Newarth]

All right. The video is available right now on our YouTube channel. Now let's do our interview with Joel Collander.

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[Spencer Newarth]

All right, joining us on the line is Joel Collander, the interactive production manager from Rock Island Auction. Rock island is who will be selling our Punt gun later this summer with proceeds going to the meat eater land access initiative. Joel, welcome to the show.

[Joel Collander]

Good to be back. Good to talk to you again.

[Spencer Newarth]

Now our punt gun will be for sale at the August Premier Firearms auction. Tell us about that event.

[Joel Collander]

Sure. That's our big summer premiere auction. We have three premiere auctions here. This one's August 21st, 23rd. It's gonna be about 1700 items. It's a three day sale. It's an absolute, absolute event at our in person venue there in Bedford in Texas. So if you're in the area, heck, even if you're not in the area, come on down it is they're always open to the public if you can't make it down. Like if someone wants to bid on the punt gun or see better photos of it of course you can always go to the website for. For photos for more information of course to place bids on those items.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, so a few months away from selling the thing give us a guess as to what the punt gun will sell for.

[Joel Collander]

So the good news is you have kind of an idea already right. Within the last couple years. That's a pretty good comparison because the actual gun sold in in 2022. That said our estimate now is a little bit higher. We got believe a pre auction estimate now these could change. We're still. We're working on that sale right now. It's estimated between 20 and 30 000.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay.

[Joel Collander]

I think there's. There's a couple things that go into that one tied to you guys and you know you guys are pretty popular thing now do is actually got evidence that it's a. That it's a functional which there aren't too many of those. I mean there aren't too many punt guns in general. They're a rare item. So to have one that's documented and functional has. Has a piece of brass with it that's always a plus. And it's in actually surprisingly good condition for a punt gun. As you know those things were often in aquatic environments and often saltwater environments. So to have one like this with that paint and it's a Holland in Holland I think that's. That's all going to help the value for that. Oh and it's appearing alongside a lot of really just top of the line sporting arms both for wing shooting and for a big game. So as far as sporting arms go this August that punt gun is going to be a headliner and it's. It's in very good company.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay. Very excited. I'll be tuning in for that auction. Paint us a picture for the type of buyer that is looking to spend 20,000 or 30,000 on a punt gun that they may never shoot. Who is that person?

[Joel Collander]

We actually see quite a bit of this. Of course collectors is the easy answer. Right. We're we're at an auction house for finding historic firearms. So collectors is easy. What kind of collectors? Well of course you have sporting arms collectors. You see that with premier brands today. Holland and Holland Purdy, Rigby, some of those more famous names, Krie Golf and what have you. So sporting arms specifically though you may find ones for British sporting arms. You might Find one specifically for British best quality firearms or even London gun makers. You may also find someone who just loves wing shooting, whether that's, you know, American. There's a bunch of publications of course here stateside that focus on just wing shooting and hunting, you might find that as well. And then there's just people who like big display pieces or things that go boom. You know, a functional piece is going to appeal to a lot of people as well. So there's a pretty good game, pretty good gamut of cross sections of collectors there.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, we hope it's competitive that day. Give us some history of Rock island auction and punt guns. How often do you have one come up for sale?

[Joel Collander]

So the short answer is not very often. And you know, way back when I first started, I think we said we sold, you know, somewhere right around 40,000 guns a year at auction. Well, I've been here 13 years, so that number is, if it hasn't doubled, I'd be very surprised that the number one in the world for what we do. But throughout I checked our records prior to this and just to see how many punt guns. It's barely, barely over two dozen.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Wow.

[Steven Rinella]

Yeah.

[Joel Collander]

If you're selling tens of thousands of guns a year and that you are punt guns. So not a lot of them remain one, because again we mentioned already those, those kind of initial rough conditions. These are guns that are, they're working guns in saltwater conditions. And then two, of course it speaks to the, to the legislation. If you can't use these punt guns, you know, what, what are they for? A lot of people lose the sort of luster of ownership. So at least when they weren't in practical use anymore. So not, not too many punt guns floating around anymore even that come through our doors.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah, I think when we bought ours there were two punt guns up for sale that week. And previously that we bought it in 2022 prior to that, I think someone there had told me that 2016 was the last time you guys had sold one. So less than one punt gun a year, it seems like

[Joel Collander]

fair. I mean, you know, you get ones like that. We have two in a sale, most likely a single collector who's had more than one. So. Yeah, but less than one pun getting here as a. Since we've opened, and we've been open since 1993. That's a, that's a safe estimate.

[Spencer Newarth]

Now how does the size of our punt gun compare to the other ones that you guys have sold?

[Joel Collander]

There's so many jokes to be made here, but I will Say it's bigger than average. I mean we have the seven, eight. There's a lot of the seven foot range. There's a lot in the eight foot range. Not of course, you know, you, any source you read, they always want to cite the biggest. Right. You know, these are 12 foot guns, these are 10 foot guns and they're. The bores are an inch wide and they killed, you know, this many hundred things at once. You know, those are, those are the exceptions. That's one end of the scale. But punt guns, I mean just as a genre are so varied because they were in use for so long. I'm sorry for through so many sort of periods of development.

[Spencer Newarth]

Right.

[Joel Collander]

By so many different groups of people from so many different firearm technologies. So it runs the gamut. I mean you get people who were using them more commercially. So very, very large. You know, the many, the most birds you could take down the more money you were bringing in.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah.

[Joel Collander]

During those commercial hunting days. And then you had people who were just trying to, in their earlier days, just trying to make an extra buck and maybe put some meat on the table for their family too. So they're a little bit smaller at that point. Yours I didn't have the full measurement. I have a barrel measurement 85 and a half inches, which puts it about 7 foot. You know, once you add that sort of tiller or stock that's on the back, extra 12, 18 inches. So it's right in there with a lot of good 7 and 8 footers. The biggest one that we had was like just over, just over nine foot, nine foot, seven and a half inches. So there's some doozies come through the door for sure.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. Now at some point before we bought the gun, someone from your team told me that you will often have sellers that come to you guys with what they call a punt gun, but in reality they have a pigeon gun or a fort gun. And so what is the difference between those three things, A pigeon gun, a fort gun and a punt gun.

[Joel Collander]

We're getting into the collecting nitty gritty and that's what we're here for. I love it. Pigeon guns, they're gonna, there's gonna be some intersection too because eventually when people were punting, anything that you could use that would get you close to ducks on a punt and take down more than one duck at once could have seen use as a punt gun. Right. If you were just trying to put again meat on the table or make a couple extra bucks, you weren't real picky about. About what it was in form, it was. Did it function? But pigeon guns early on are for the early pigeon shoots, like literal trap shooting. You have five trap houses. They release pigeons. They could go any which direction. You had to knock them down within a circle, a giant sort of area to get the kill, to get credit for it. If you want to knock those pigeons down fast, you wanted a big gun. So eight boards aren't uncommon. Very long barrels aren't uncommon, and very, very high end as well. There was a lot of money on these pigeon shoots back in the day. So here you have this size, you have really well put together pigeon guns. They could often be confused for a large punt gun. You know, also both, you know, smoothbore shotguns. Do you have a wall gun or what was a, a fort gun that

[Spencer Newarth]

I, I had heard, I heard some of them referred to as fort guns.

[Joel Collander]

What would that be for a fort gun, a wall gun, a rampart gun, Sort of lots of different names all for the same thing, and it's exactly what it sounds like. These are guns that are mounted on walls. A lot of times they will be large. Very seldom have I seen like an actual rifled example, but oftentimes through some sort of fork with like a pintle or something on the bottom, because you're actually going to set that on top of a wall to defend your fort castle, what have you. And they're really sort of an intermediate range weapon. You know, you had your small arms for close stuff, you had artillery and mortars for far away targets, but right in the middle, well, you could use a really big wall gun to make an impact on some enemy troops that might be sieging your position or your building. And the last ones are true punt guns, as you discussed on the podcast. These are large guns to be put in a boat, mounted in a boat or a punt, very shallow. Because essentially you are sneaking up on ducks on their own turf, trying to be as undetected as possible, getting within a certain range for you to really lob that shot across the water and take out as many ducks as possible. Those are again large caliber, no surprise there. Shotguns, you're trying to take out as many as possible. But the range of a troop hunt gun is everything from pre flintlock to the cartridge guns like the screw breach Holland Holland that you all bought and so everything in between. It's such a fantastic genre of collecting once you start diving into it.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. Have you guys ever sold a punt gun that is confirmed to work like ours is?

[Joel Collander]

No. Okay, answers. There have been A lot of quote unquote duck guns which are again these sort of large bore, like four bore. We have a lot of four board guns. Shouldn't say a lot but there's, when they do come through, very high end, you're dealing with a very high end custom make from like John Dixon and Son or again Holland and Holland. People are using these as shoulder mounted four bore shotguns. And again they're, they're for duck. Would they, are they the type to be like mounted or secured in a boat? No, but they're definitely being used for essentially the same purpose and that would be a flock shooting duck. So there are those that are capable in fine enough condition where I wouldn't worry a bit about them being fired.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah.

[Joel Collander]

But as far as a true punt gun like yours with you know, pintle mounts on it and everything in the recoil device on the bottom, all this fun stuff. No, I've never seen one even thought about being fired.

[Spencer Newarth]

Great. Very excited. Now, was any part of you nervous about us shooting the one that we purchased?

[Joel Collander]

Now the funny answer is no, because it's not me. But the second answer is no, not at all. I mean if there's a group of guys that I, that I trust to do the research with the outdoors in sporting, it's, it's the folks at Meat Eater. Now if you were, you know, two guys in a rowboat taking it out, I might, I might be a little more concerned. You also have a quality maker like Holland in Holland. Those are sort of like legacy arms that just, they last. They're heirlooms. So you started out with good materials, in good condition and you're smart about it. Everything, everything lined up perfect.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. And that's also why it took us four years to get to the point where we could make the film about us shooting the punt gun.

[Joel Collander]

I mean I wasn't going to bring it up but I'm, I'm sure it might come up once or twice in the comments. Yep.

[Spencer Newarth]

Now how is selling a punt gun different from your typical firearms? I imagine there's got to be some real logistical challenges that you guys go through selling, you know, an eight foot gun.

[Joel Collander]

I mean the selling part's easy, right? Get an auctioneer and bang and hammer at the front of a room. But everything around it is required, you know, to accommodate that, that massive size. So whether it's trying to take photography of it, you know, to put it in our catalog or to put it on the website, transporting it even around the building, around our facility, getting it set up in our preview hall down in Bedford, Texas. And then of course eventually shipping it to a new owner. They all have, they all have their, their issues come up with. Which by the way, if you're an in person bidder boy, we would encourage that.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. Our punt gun, when we bought it, it showed up in a literal crate, I think multiple crates actually. So if you are the person who buys this thing and it's going to be shipped to you, expect a giant piece of wood coming in the mail and that's where your punt gun will be inside of now. Now, our punt gun, as most were, was made in England simply because that's where this style of hunting was the most popular. So with that being the case, what is the most, what is the most English thing about our gun? Is there something you look at that makes you go, oh, that gun, it was made in London

[Joel Collander]

we talked about earlier. But the Holland in Holland, just a quintessential best quality gun. A London gun maker that's been around since 1835. So they're pushing 190 years this year. Last year. 190 years last year. And they just heirloom quality, like I said, legacy type guns, the type you pass on. And of course we see him come out of some pretty impressive collections. Those are guns that will regularly draw six figures. High artistry and embellishment. But they're also guns that you should not be afraid to take out and use. Maybe true to form with a punt gun. Absolutely fantastic. And Holland, so Holland and Holland is just quintessential British gun.

[Spencer Newarth]

Somebody we showed the gun to told us that they suspected the engraving around the barrel most likely made it a special order or a custom made gun. What do you think of that theory?

[Joel Collander]

Yes.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay.

[Joel Collander]

Especially given when your gun was made, which I believe was the late 1800s. Correct.

[Spencer Newarth]

1885 is what we could come up with.

[Joel Collander]

Perfect. Because initially, you know, we have the early 1800s where hunt gunning is kind of coming into its own. Right. You have a lot of sailors, you have deck guns. How do we use these? What do we do when we're out of the service? You know, there's a lot of mutual origins there from that British sort of age of naval warfare. And but initially these are people who are, like I said, not doing this commercially. And so it's whatever you can get. And a lot of times they're very rough. Sometimes you might put it together at home if you can't get those materials. But very, very sort of singular purpose as it goes on. It becomes Essentially a sport of the gentry. You know, the, the well healed and well to do are taking this very difficult rough hunt. I mean this is cold hunting. This is. Or cold shooting, muddy, wet, salt water. Like you might be out all day laying on your belly and like rowing a punt. That's very physically demanding. There's a lot going on there. So to turn it into a sport at the end of the 19th century is kind of what happens. And then you see more of these, let's say accomplished gun makers getting into the act like, like Holland in Holland, John Dixon's another one that made some four board duck guns. And it becomes. You see the engraving, you see a finer quality in these guns. Yours is the only one, I will say, that's in a, in that punt gun form that looks like essentially duck artillery, for lack of a better term. That does have the engraving on it. That scroll work. That scroll on a canvas.

[Spencer Newarth]

Right.

[Joel Collander]

Work on there. And you've got a little engraving up in front of the trigger underneath with a little scene of the, of the goose. Just. Yeah, I have no doubt that just based on its time alone, you're looking at a. They're a premier manufacturer already by the 1880s, Holland and Holland, they're getting national acclaim and royal endorsements. And with the engraving on there. Absolutely. An order for someone. Well to do who wanted to go out and try punt gunning. It wasn't essential, it wasn't to make money. But they wanted to try it out.

[Spencer Newarth]

Yeah. Some real artistry on that gun. Now, besides our punt gun, what other guns from that auction are you excited about?

[Joel Collander]

So the good news is there are some. The bad news is we have a giant auction coming this weekend.

[Steven Rinella]

Oh.

[Joel Collander]

And the American sales, 250 years celebrating American history. So I can't talk too much about August just yet.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay.

[Joel Collander]

But I will say three things about August. One, as I mentioned earlier, you're in a host of sporting arms that should. Rising tide floats all boats. Sorry for the punt gun pun, but that should help all the sporting arms in that sale. And that's what we do, we build auctions. There is a second. I will say the August premiere has one item. Flagship of the sale does have an estimate in the seven figures.

[Steven Rinella]

Wow.

[Joel Collander]

And I will say about the August premiere, that there is a gun so famous in that sale that I, I would, I would wager that everyone in your room right now has seen a photograph of it.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, great. That's. That's a wonderful tease. And after this interview, Joel is going to tell me what that Gun is so that I, I know and I don't have to wonder anymore. Now tell folks how they can learn more about the August auction where our punt gun will be sold.

[Joel Collander]

Actually, since that auction will be over, the upcoming auction will be over Saturday. Go to the website on Monday. We will have essentially a 16 page highlight portfolio that you can flip through digitally on our website. You'll see the big dogs front and center on the front catalog on the back catalog. If you go to rockislandauction.com they will have that highlight portfolio of the catalog for anyone who wants to see the punt gun and place some bids on it. That should be available around mid July. We'll of course make you all aware of that and you can spread the good words. We can try to raise some funds here.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, very excited. And Rock island is graciously waiving all of our fees that normally come with selling a gun through them. That means they are helping put as much money into the land access initiative as possible. So we really appreciate that. Joel, thank you for helping us fund more conservation projects and thanks for joining us today.

[Joel Collander]

It's been a blast. We're, we're happy to come back anytime.

[Spencer Newarth]

Okay, talk to you again soon. Thank you.

[Joel Collander]

Bye.

[Spencer Newarth]

All right, that's it for this episode. The punt gun film is on our YouTube channel right now. Please go watch it. It's a lot of fun. Old guns are cool. Big guns are cool. This is as old and as big as it gets. So if you like history, if you like conservation, if you like firearms, you'll like this video. So please go check it out. It's available right now. Don't forget to go buy your punt gun hat at the auction house of oddities that will go live sometime in July. You can also bid on the punt gun shells there. We have three of them that we're going to be selling. And if you want to buy the punt gun yourself, you can go do that at the Rock island auction in August. You can participate virtually. They'll set you up really well. I bought the gun from Bozeman, Montana while the auction was happening. I believe they were in Illinois at that point. Now they're located in Texas, so you don't even have to be there in person to participate again. That's rockislandauction.com that is happening at the end of August. All right, that's it for this episode. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Bye now.

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[Steven Rinella]

Okay?

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Seth Morris]

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[Steven Rinella]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Guaranteed Human.