Ep. 911: Makah Whaling Practices, Treaty Rights, and Regulatory Challenges

Summary

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The MeatEater Podcast

Ep. 911: Makah Whaling Practices, Treaty Rights, and Regulatory Challenges

Host: Steven Rinella
Date: August 3, 2026
Featured Guests:

• TJ Green (Chairman, Makah Tribal Council)
• Daniel Green (Vice President, Whaling Commission)
• Lupe Castaneda (Council Member & First Foods Expert)
• Chris Martinez (Chief of Staff, Makah Tribal Council)

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Episode Overview

This episode offers an in-depth exploration of the Makah Tribe’s whaling traditions, treaty rights, and longstanding regulatory hurdles in modern America. Host Steven Rinella welcomes Makah leadership and culture bearers for an open conversation about the cultural, historical, and legal significance of Makah whaling, and the immense challenges the tribe faces in asserting their rights in the face of social, political, and governmental resistance.

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Table of Contents

1. Who Are the Makah? (04:00–08:00)
2. Traditional Whaling Practices & Cultural Significance (08:00–13:00)
3. Epidemics, Treaty, and 20th Century Context (13:00–21:00)
4. Decline and Cessation of Whaling (21:00–23:00)
5. Resuming Whaling: Legal and Social Hurdles (23:00–29:00)
6. The 1999 Whale Hunt—Process and Backlash (29:00–43:00)
7. Regulatory Limbo: Lawsuits and Waivers (43:00–54:00)
8. Whale Distribution, Preparation & Nutrition (54:00–61:00)
9. Internal Makah Structures and Community Process (85:00–92:00)
10. Where Things Stand: Waiting for Permits (76:57–80:08)
11. Environmental Toxins and Health Considerations (93:22–99:54)
12. Language, Identity, and Representation (100:11–106:41)
13. Final Reflections: The Importance of Whaling (108:24–114:07)

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1. Who Are the Makah? (04:00–08:00)

• Origins & Meaning: The Makah reside at the northwestern tip of Washington State. “Makah” is actually a Salish word meaning “generous host”—their own term is "Qʷidiččaʔa·tx̌" (“people who live among the rocks and seagulls”) ([04:40]).
  • Quote: "Makah is not our word…our neighbor, a Salish nation, called us Makah, and that means 'generous host.'" – Chairman TJ Green ([04:53])
• Tribal Population: Approx. 3,100 members, half living on reservation.
• Ocean People: Cultural and spiritual lifeways are inherently tied to the ocean.
  • Quote: "We're ocean people. The ocean…[is] the lifeblood, and our spiritual existence and our cultural practices all revolve around activities on that ocean." – Chairman TJ Green ([04:24])

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2. Traditional Whaling Practices & Cultural Significance (08:00–13:00)

• Central to Society: Whaling was "the focal point" of Makah society—critical for nutrition, trade (especially whale oil), and wealth.
  • Quote: "It was our main nutritional...[and] a source of wealth for us in the society that we built for over thousands of years." – Chairman TJ Green ([07:22])
• Hunting Methods: Dugout cedar canoes, 7 paddlers, traditional three-piece yew wood harpoons with mussel shell tips and elk bone toggles ([08:38]).
• Target Species: Historically hunted gray whales, humpbacks, right whales—gray whales preferred for proximity and flavor.

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3. Epidemics, Treaty, and 20th Century Context (13:00–21:00)

• Impact of Disease: Two major smallpox epidemics (1820s, 1840s) wiped out ~90% of the Makah population ([15:20]).
  • Quote: "…two major smallpox epidemics...took out 90% of our population. And then what was left…negotiated the 1855 treaty in Neah Bay." – Chairman TJ Green ([15:20])
• Treaty of Neah Bay 1855: Negotiated by a decimated leadership. Treaty remains central to Makah identity and legal status.

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4. Decline and Cessation of Whaling (21:00–23:00)

• Industrial Whaling Pressure: By 1920s, commercial whaling drastically reduced local whale populations, forcing the Makah to voluntarily stop whaling ([13:03]).
  • Quote: "In the 1920s, we made the decision on our own to not whale anymore because they just weren't in our Area." – Chairman TJ Green ([13:12])
• Gap Years: Last traditional whaling before hiatus: 1927; resumed in 1999.

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5. Resuming Whaling: Legal and Social Hurdles (23:00–29:00)

• Legal Steps: 1970s–1990s, as whale populations recovered, Makah began advocating for resumption, navigating layers of federal regulations (Marine Mammal Protection Act 1972, ESA, NOAA, IWC quotas) ([22:53–24:04]).
• Community Support: Traditional knowledge preserved through storytelling and preparation even during 70-year hiatus ([21:16]).
• Quotas: Negotiated through the International Whaling Commission; initial quotas covered five whales per year over five years ([25:55–26:04]).

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6. The 1999 Whale Hunt—Process and Backlash (29:00–43:00)

• Social Opposition: Intense backlash from animal rights and environmental groups (notably Sea Shepherd Society—harassment, threats, federal restraining order, Coast Guard involvement) ([27:16–27:51]).
  • Quote: "They'd send their ships into our harbor...get on the loudspeaker and...start putting insults out there." – Chairman TJ Green ([27:22])
• Internal Unity: Overwhelming Makah support (“84–85% wanted to go back and do this”) ([30:59]), some generational dissent resolved in community.
• Media Focus: National coverage focused on social dispute rather than treaty rights or whale populations ([31:30–32:16]).
• Hunt Execution: Traditional approaches blended with modern safety protocols. Heavy Coast Guard presence; planned in secrecy for safety ([33:32]).

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7. Regulatory Limbo: Lawsuits and Waivers (43:00–54:00)

• Federal Injunction: 2002 injunction (Anderson v. Evans) forced Makah to stop whaling due to challenges regarding NEPA environmental reviews.
  • Quote: "The federal government was sued...and...an injunction put on our whaling." – Chairman TJ Green ([43:36])
• Waiver Process: Since 2004, Makah have been entangled in federal waiver/permit requirements under Marine Mammal Protection Act ([46:15–46:42]).
• Ongoing Delays: NOAA and government slow-walked process; only in 2024 was a waiver finally granted, now awaiting permit signature ([67:32–69:16]).

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8. Whale Distribution, Preparation & Nutrition (54:00–61:00)

• Division of Whale: After a hunt or ship-strike kills, whale is divided among the harpooner, crew, families, and wider community. Blubber and meat are prized.
  • Quote: “My favorite’s the skin and blubber. I absolutely love that. No taste, tastes like the ocean.” – Daniel Green ([51:49])
• Uses and Cooking: Whale skin/blubber eaten raw, smoked, or as jerky; meat is dark, lean, likened to “ocean elk”. Jerky is especially prized ([54:33]).
• Traditional Oil: Whale oil rendered slowly, used for dipping, preserved in jars ([58:41]).
  • Quote: “You can freeze the whale oil. It’s a bit like honey or cinnamon, they don’t really go bad.” – Chairman TJ Green ([59:06])

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<a name="section9"></a>

9. Internal Makah Structures and Community Process (85:00–92:00)

• Crew Selection: The Whaling Commission oversees whaling operations; captains (often sea experts and cultural leaders) apply, assemble crews, and obtain Tribal Council approval.
• Representation: 24-member commission made up of family/village heads; deep generational training critical.
  • Quote: “The training, the mindset, even just who you are as a person…If you’re going to be a captain, you’re a leader…you’ve spent time in the ocean.” – Chris Martinez ([89:41])

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10. Where Things Stand: Waiting for Permits (76:57–80:08)

• Current Status: As of July 2026, the tribe is awaiting signature from the Secretary of Commerce (Howard Lutnick) for actual hunting permits.
  • Quote: “We’re waiting on the Secretary of Commerce to sign the permit…his deputies…have been great [but there’s] radio silence.” – Chairman TJ Green ([77:15]; [79:47])
• Political Frustrations: Both parties’ support for tribal rights is conditional and politically expedient.
  • Quote: “Democrats will support…up until the point it starts conflicting with labor and jobs. Republicans…up to the point it starts affecting industry.” – Chairman TJ Green ([80:44])

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<a name="section11"></a>

11. Environmental Toxins and Health Considerations (93:22–99:54)

• Bioaccumulation: Limited data; so far, minimal contamination in whale samples. Whales' diet (plankton feeders, not predatory fish) may limit toxin levels ([95:08–95:54]).
  • Quote: “…studies on some whales…they detected…levels in the blubber. They didn’t find…in the liver…red meat there wasn’t as much.” – Lupe Castaneda ([95:08])
• Comparative Health: Makah elders who consumed traditional diets lived long lives; health issues worsened after dietary shift to processed Western foods ([96:14–97:05]).

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<a name="section12"></a>

12. Language, Identity, and Representation (100:11–106:41)

• On Language: Makah aren’t offended by “Indian” or “Native American” – context and intent matter more.
  • Quote: “Any English word is the wrong word...But I don't stress about it. It's more how are you saying it?” – Chairman TJ Green ([102:00], [102:25])
• Language Sample: Brief speaking in Makah language; close ties to language families on Vancouver Island ([105:04]).
• Representation: Mascots and names: nuanced views—roots and context more important than outside opinions ([103:11–104:41]).

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<a name="section13"></a>

13. Final Reflections: The Importance of Whaling (108:24–114:07)

• Core Identity: Whaling is not recreational—it’s the ceremonial and subsistence heart of Makah identity.
  • Quote: “It's ceremonial and subsistence. It's not for the tribe's pleasure. It's…who we are as a people.” – Chris Martinez ([108:24])
• Book Recommendation: “The Sea Is My Country” by Dr. Joshua Reid is recommended for learning about Makah history ([109:04]).
• Last Word: The Makah are simply seeking to be whole again by practicing ancestral ways, honored by unambiguous treaty rights.
  • Quote: “Part of our culture, and part of who we are, we're not able to realize that right now. We want to be whole.” – Chairman TJ Green ([113:49])

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Notable Quotes & Key Moments

• "The 10% remains of richness. Because think about what gets lost…all the history…all wiped." – Steve & TJ Green ([17:01])
• "We're just waiting. We're not even arguing right now." – TJ Green ([83:08])
• "If you want to know Makah, go learn about Makah." – Chris Martinez ([109:03])

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Episode Summary Takeaways

• Cultural Survival & Resilience: The Makah have maintained traditions through catastrophic loss and federal obstacles, preserving language, stories, and skills.
• Treaty Rights: The 1855 Neah Bay Treaty is foundational, granting whaling rights—but modern regulations and political resistance create ongoing barriers.
• Modern Regulatory Maze: Even after federal waivers, tribal whaling is hampered by political inaction and slow bureaucracy.
• Societal Benefit, No Ecological Harm: Makah whaling is highly limited, culturally crucial, and sustainable; opposition often ignores both treaty law and scientific data.
• Respect and Education: Understanding the struggle for whaling is crucial for wider respect of Indigenous rights—and for fully appreciating North American cultural and ecological history.

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Useful Further Reading

• The Sea Is My Country by Joshua L. Reid
• Makah Cultural and Research Center (for further learning about Makah society, language, and whaling)

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Host (Steve)]

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[Chairman TJ Green]

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[Host (Steve)]

You can't predict anything brought to you by first light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds no compromise gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out@first light.com that's F I R S T L I T E.com okay, folks, saddle up or put your life jackets on because we're going to talk about wailing modern day whaling, specifically the traditional and modern day whale hunting practices and challenges of the Makah tribe from Washington State's Olympic Peninsula. We're joined by Depends how you look at it, either three or four guests. We have Chairman TJ Green, who is the chairman of the Makah Tribal Council, and his areas of expertise include policy, legal hurdles, tribal politics, and historical organizational context. Okay, you've been with the Tribal Council for nine years?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

All right, we got Daniel Green, who's the vice president of the Whaling Commission and has been involved in whale hunts, butchering whales, all that kind of stuff. All the above. We have Lupe Castaneda. Am I saying that right?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah. Who's a Castaneta. Yep.

[Host (Steve)]

Who's a council member and a First Foods expert. He's going to help us understand a little bit about nutrition, health impacts and environmental toxins that can be found in whale meat. And we have Chris Martinez is who.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Here's just.

[Host (Steve)]

He's just hanging out. But just quick, tell. Tell people what you do do.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I'm the chief of staff for the MAA Tribal Council. I also sit as the secretary of the MAA Whaling Commission.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

So I'm here just hanging out.

[Host (Steve)]

All right, so let's start with this man. And, tj, you can answer this question. Explain. Who. Who are the maa? Okay. And. And what does that word mean?

[Chairman TJ Green]

All right, and.

[Host (Steve)]

And what. What do you regard as. Like. Like, what do you guys regard as your. Your traditional homeland? And what. What. What do you regard as your homeland now?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, the Makah tribe is very northwestern tip of Washington State. We've been there since the first light is how we say it.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. And we're, you know, we got about 3100 members and 1600 live on a reservation. It's a federal Indian reservation now. Okay. And, you know, we're ocean people. You know, we're connected to that ocean that's been the lifeblood, and our spiritual existence and our cultural practices all revolve around activities on that ocean. Okay. And so, you know, that's. That's who we are. You know, Makah is not our word.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's not. It's not our word. It's a Salish word. You know, our neighbor, neighboring tribe was a Salish nation called us Makah, and that means generous host.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh. Because a lot of times those names are like. A lot of times there's names that get picked up that are not great.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

That translate to sort of like a. Like, you know, like the enemy. The enemy or whatever, you know? Sure, sure, yeah. Generous hosts.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Generous host. Even though we had wars with that nation.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, you did?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

That's what they called us.

[Host (Steve)]

That's what Makah means.

[Chairman TJ Green]

That's what Macau means.

[Host (Steve)]

What was your traditional like? Like, not traditional, but what was. What. What. What. What did the macaw call themselves at the time that the sailors started calling them the Makah Quidditch? Oh, what's that mean? That's That's a harder word to say.

[Chairman TJ Green]

People who live amongst the rocks and seagulls.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, really?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

That was the name.

[Chairman TJ Green]

That's. That's.

[Host (Steve)]

Do you guys still use that name now?

[Chairman TJ Green]

We do.

[Host (Steve)]

Yes. Okay, I see.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

So. So. But in your relationships with the government, you're, like, in the media, you're the Makah tribe, the Maah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Correct. That's during the treaty negotiations. 1855 Treaty of Nia Bay. That's what Governor Stevens. Governor Isaac Stevens, you know, he. There was. He couldn't say Quidditch yet, I'm sure, so.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, really? He's like me. He was like me, man. He couldn't say it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Huh.

[Host (Steve)]

That's interesting, man. Here's one for. For the most part, you guys could just decide amongst yourselves who's best to answer a question, or if you want to both take a stab at. You can both take a stab at. But I wanted to ask because Daniel's had experience with, you know, sort of on the ground experience. Maybe all you guys have had on the ground experience with whaling, but with, like, historically and. Is it annoying if I say historically?

[Chairman TJ Green]

No.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay. Because that's the thing. Like a white dude's heads. A lot of times there's, you know. You know, this. And white. And white dudes heads. There's like. There was Native Americans, and they kind of, like, stopped. Do you know what I mean? People view it like they, like, stopped and then became that something different happened. So if I say to you historically, and you go like, what do you mean? I mean, I don't know, like, a while ago or, you know. But in this question, I mean, historically, how serious. How serious were the Macau about whaling? You know, I mean, like, how did it. How did it fit into the seasonal.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, if I can just start out.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, please.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It was. It was a focal point of our society, okay?

[Host (Steve)]

Whaling.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It was our main nutritional. It's how we fed our people.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, we have no big rivers out there that are lush with salmon or anything like that. So. So we were out on that ocean and whales were swimming there, and we. Yeah, so we understood. We harvested them for a nutritional source, and it became a source of wealth for us in the society that we built for over thousands of years.

[Host (Steve)]

Explain that when you say wealth as a trade item.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Absolutely.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

And what. What components of a whale would be used? What components of a whale would be. I mean, I can imagine the parts that would be used internally, but what would be a item that you could. That you could barter with or that you could monetize off a whale.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Whale oil is one that's. Yeah, you get a lot of whale

[Host (Steve)]

oil from an interior, like, I imagine, like interior people would want it. Right, because they didn't have. They didn't have an equivalent.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Correct. Yeah, I got it.

[Host (Steve)]

I got it. And then how, how were, like, how were whales hunted? I mean, physically, like, how were they hunted? If you went back, just pick like, pick a top. Let's say, let's say we go back to, I don't know, 200 years ago, 300 years ago. How was the whale caught out of a.

[Chairman TJ Green]

We'd go out in a cedar dugout canoe.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You'd have, you know, seven paddlers or so on in that canoe. And everyone had their own, their own job. Someone harpooned it, someone steered the canoe. And then you had your paddlers and we had a. The harpoon was made of you. Wood shaft and it was in three pieces, so it would come apart. You know, we probably learned that the hard way.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Right.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Like, probably stabbed a whale with a. One that wasn't in three pieces and that whale rolled around. Probably smacked the heck out of people.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, yeah, that's a good point, man. Yeah, Imagine that, right?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. So it comes apart. And the harpoon tip was made of muscle shell.

[Host (Steve)]

Really?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, muscle shell. And. And elk. What part of the bone? I need a little help on that.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, like the valve, the toggle.

[Host (Steve)]

Get a little close to that mic, bud.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Oh, it was the toggle. The.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, that muscle shell would be like, like barbs or prongs embedded into that thing.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, it was shaped, shaped just like a. Like a regular harpoon, I guess.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

I had a, like, broad tip, but.

[Host (Steve)]

But it'd stay in there good.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, it would stay in there good. Yeah. And it was tempered and aged and, and hardened. So, yeah, there's a lot that went into it.

[Host (Steve)]

So do you, do you. Well, two things. What, What, Was there one specific type of whale or did you get opportunities on multiple kinds of whales in your. I know now the focus is on gray whales. Yeah, we're going to talk a lot about gray whales.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

But.

[Host (Steve)]

But like, your people might have had that that was the one they wanted. Or was there other kinds of whales that might be targeted at different times?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of different whales. We hunted Etubic gold whale. Right. Whales we hunted.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, really? Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Gray whales, humpbacks, anything that slam, pretty much. But gray whales were the tastiest.

[Host (Steve)]

Is that right? Yeah, that was a preferred whale.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It was a preferred whale.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

I'm just. I think due to the abundance also.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

And the migration patterns were near shore. Humpbacks are a little further offshore. But we did target those also.

[Host (Steve)]

So do you know in the, like, in your traditions or Were a lot of dudes killed hunting whales? I mean, it had to been a hazardous business, man.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

So that's what. That's what it is. And that. That leads, you know, into the preparation and stuff. So, you know, essentially.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

You are preparing for death when you're training with, you know, the eight guys in the canoe.

[Host (Steve)]

Is that right?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

And it's a. And it's a. Understand. I'm. It's the biggest creature on Earth.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah. Then they have. They have a. They want to live also, so they have a wild side and. Yeah, it's pretty scary.

[Host (Steve)]

It could be dangerous.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, it could be very dangerous.

[Host (Steve)]

You mentioned, like, biggest. It's the thing I always bring up to my kids is that kids are always tripped out about dinosaurs and stuff. But the biggest animal to ever live on Earth is now, like a blue whale, as big as it seems like, you know, these, like, dinosaur statues and stuff are. It's like the biggest critter is there now you're like, you go see the damn thing. Like big whales, you know.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

What does. What, like, what does a gray whale. What. What is they. What does that thing weigh?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

27. About 2700 pounds on average. We kind of target that general area. It's about £30,000. About 27. Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

20, £30,000. Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

It's about a ton of foot.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Of the length. One ton per foot.

[Host (Steve)]

The main focus of our conversation is going to be like, the resumption of whaling. Okay. And you guys, fights with. Maybe don't use the word fight, you guys. Negotiations with the American government and others about what you're. What you're allowed to do by the treaty you signed with the American government. Right. Like, and whether or not you can do it and what it takes to do it. But for background, walk me through, like, how did whaling wind down and when did it wind down? Like, when did it go from being an annual occurrence to being a thing that faded out? What was the process of it going away?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, in the early 1900s, you had. Commercial whaling was really ramping up around the world, really. Right.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

So.

[Chairman TJ Green]

So our whalers at that time were noticing it was harder and harder to do our traditional hunts. So in the 1920s, we made the decision on our own to not whale anymore because they just weren't in our Area the way they used to be

[Host (Steve)]

because of the impact of the commercial whalers, Right?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

Like the Moby Dick type dudes, Right? Like rendering, you know, killing them, like

[Chairman TJ Green]

industrially industrial, you know, the. The big old harpoons on the big ships.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. Rendering all that oil and selling all that oil in Massachusetts and stuff. Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

So.

[Host (Steve)]

So that was whittling away the whale population.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, I was whittling that away. And. And so we stopped in the late 1920s. We had our last. Last harvest before we did the 1 in 99. And then, you know, it took the world a while to catch up. You know, it 20 years later, you get the Whaling Convention act and those agreements, those international agreements to start trying to be more responsible with the stocks that are around the world there.

[Host (Steve)]

When you say it took the world a while to catch up, you mean it took the world a while to respond to the industrial slaughter. To regulate it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

To regulate it.

[Host (Steve)]

They let it get. It got bad.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, it got bad, Yeah. I mean, you. Populations were at. Near extinction.

[Host (Steve)]

Do you. Do you guys have much idea when the. When the disease epidemics came from Europeans, did it. Did those diseases hit. Did they, like, hit the macaw, like, suddenly and hard? Were. There. Were. There was just huge losses of people, or did it. Was it with you guys, was it a slower thing that played out over centuries?

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, it was. It hit us hard. We had two major smallpox epidemics in our communities. You know, one in the. I believe it was the 1820s, and then another in the. In the late 1840s.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Took out 90% of our population.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Huh.

[Chairman TJ Green]

And then what was left from. From that 90%? Negotiated the 1855 treaty in Neah Bay.

[Host (Steve)]

That's the thing, man. That's the thing. I talk to people a lot about that. I just don't think, like a lot of Americans can't picture it, you know, can't picture that kind of loss. But the only way to really get there is just to try to imagine in, like, I don't know, pick whatever town you live in, right? Like, picture that you live in Toledo, Ohio, right? And then imagine that all of a sudden, over the course of a couple

[Chairman TJ Green]

years

[Host (Steve)]

of that, 9 out of 10 of the people in Toledo, Ohio, die or wherever, right? Nine out of ten of them die. And you look at your broader family structure, your siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, nine. Like, if you count them all up and you go, I have 20 family members, okay? 18 are now dead. Now come tell me about your family, and come tell me about how your family Functions.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

Like people cannot picture it, man. Yeah, people can't picture it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, I appreciate that because, you know, when I thought about that, you know, growing up and reaching the age I'm at now and, and what we have as a tribe and how rich we are in our language and our culture and our traditions, you know, that 10% that survived that, you know, gave that to us. They carried that on.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

I think how rich was our society before that?

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, the 10%.

[Chairman TJ Green]

The 10%.

[Host (Steve)]

The 10% remains of richness. Because think about what gets lost.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Huge things get lost. All the history. And that's the thing is especially without now, everything gets so captured. Captured in written word, captured and banked in the Internet. But all of a sudden 80% of the narratives are gone. 80% of the. Oh, yeah, but we came from here and your grandfather was this.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

And that's all wiped. And you got. Of those 10, you got two people left. Like, here's what I think happened, but I'm not really sure. People lose sight. I mean, it's just too hard to comprehend. People flipped out during the COVID pandemic.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Oh, yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Do you know what I mean? Like people like, like people in wherever, like really hard hit places. Like people flipping out in Manhattan because I don't know what it was percentage, but like it was overwhelming the morgues. It's like, dude, that is nothing. Nothing compared. Nothing compared to what was happened to native communities with smallpox.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

You know, to get the equivalent, you'd have had to go into Manhattan and remove, I don't know, 10 million people in Manhattan. And you'd be like. That would give you an idea. That'd give you an idea of what went on.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Sure.

[Host (Steve)]

It's staggering. So sorry.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Even with those diseases, we as Makah, we did a really good job at avoiding them for quite a while because we would catch wind of it depending on where it was, and we would keep people out of certain areas and we'd steer clear of certain areas.

[Host (Steve)]

Was that right?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah. And like towards, you know, 18, the 1850s is when Ted Stevens actually caught wind of, you know, the macaws are hit hard right now. Smallpox hit him. That's kind of when he's like, let's, let's go get this treaty. That's kind of when he came out. And you can even see in the notes that even a year ago we weren't the big chiefs. We wouldn't have been the ones signing this. We're here now. And there was a lot of sadness in the Notes because they've lost so many of their family and loved ones.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, is that right?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

That's in.

[Host (Steve)]

That's in, Steve. Because that dude inked a lot of treaties in the Pacific Northwest. Stevens did.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

He kind of made like, a big

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

run, man, because he knew he couldn't take us when we were full, forcing him before disease hit us. But he's like, oh, he caught wind and he's like, yeah, it's probably a good time to negotiate, huh?

[Host (Steve)]

Because you guys are in a weakened position.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Militarily. Yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Then even. Even with the. During the COVID like, we avoided, you know, we locked down the reservation. He was the chairman, needed a really good job. He kept. We avoided a case for sure. He. How long was it until there was finally one in. In the reservation?

[Chairman TJ Green]

It was about three, four months that you.

[Host (Steve)]

You guys held out for that long without any infections or.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, yeah. And we didn't. No loss of life.

[Host (Steve)]

There's, you know, as you know. Well, we have maybe seven reservations in Montana. Five or seven. And during the pandemic, you know, there was. You'd go down to the. I can't remember if it was Northern Cheyenne or the Crow reservation. There's basically signs like, don't stop on the highway passing through. And I was like, you know, to my kids, I was like, man, you got to understand the history here of, like, pandemics. That means something totally different. That means something totally different. Native communities, man, because they got a fresh memory of that stuff, you know, right after, so. Well, let me ask about that. The quitting whaling. Was it. Would you describe it more like. More like it just wasn't worth it and it faded, or was it a formal decision to quit?

[Chairman TJ Green]

It was a formal decision. Like I mentioned in the introduction, it defined our societal structure, and we still have that reverence for it today. It's that important. That's why we went 70 years between a harvest and kept that knowledge. And that how to. And how we pass that on,

[Spin Quest Advertiser]

made

[Chairman TJ Green]

that available to people so we could carry that on through all those generations that span that 70 years, like my lifetime. I would have loved to be a whaler. I'm 54 now. It's not likely in the cards for me.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, is that right? Yeah, we'll talk about that. So almost a century later. So if you imagine that the Makah quit whaling in, let's say, 1920, that's close.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

I don't know.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It was like 27.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay, 1927.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

And then fast forward up to the lead up to the next whale that was harvested by your tribe. And that whale was harvested. What year?

[Chairman TJ Green]

1999.

[Host (Steve)]

99. Walk me through the years prior to 99. Like, what needed to happen? Because when you quit, when you guys quit, you quit because you decided to quit, but you weren't at liberty to decide to start. Right. I mean, a lot happened, right? Right. You couldn't just be like, hey, we're going out.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, well, in 70, because this whole

[Host (Steve)]

world had been built up around marine mammals, right. This whole protection world. So what, what did that look like to go. To say, like, hey man, we're gon go. We're going to resume our treaty rights. There's enough whales now. We're going to go whaling. Like, who do you pick up the phone? You know, I mean, like, who do you call right when you want to go get a whale?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, I mean, for tribal nations, our first call, you know, our main contact in the federal government is Department of Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs. Yeah. So it's their responsibility to advocate for those rights for us in the federal government. They're our trustee, is what we say. And then from Interior, you know, the whaling falls under Department of Commerce, so, you know, through noaa, National Marine Fisheries. And those regulations were set up, you know, by different federal acts like the Marine Mammal Protection act. So in 72, that marine mammal Protection act was passed and the gray whales were listed, you know, as an endangered species as well. You know, the ESA comes into play. And so when, in the 90s, when the population was recovering so well, you know, you're getting some pretty high,

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

you

[Chairman TJ Green]

know, at least record numbers in our lifetime, you know, near 30,000 whales in the 90s. And so it was proposed to be delisted, you know, that, that was the trigger for us.

[Host (Steve)]

That's what did it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes, I got you. Yeah. The delisting of the eastern North Pacific gray whale population was, was our trigger to resume. I see our treaty.

[Host (Steve)]

Right, Got it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

But why? This is probably ultra complicated question. If, if you have an agreement, as if you have an agreement as a sovereign nation, you have agreement with the government.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

And you have certain levels of autonomy, would it have, like, were you guys being nice by bringing it up? Like, why couldn't it be that just one day you just went and did it?

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, you're right on that. That was a discussion of leadership at that time.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Actually, Daniel's father, my older brother, you know, he was, he was part of those discussions as, as well as his grandfather.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, really?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Ben Johnson, the former chairman Internal discussions. Internal discussions about that, you know, should. What prevents us from just going. It's in our treaty. It's not listed, you know, but yeah, I would say we were being nice and we, you know, we met with the federal government and, you know, the federal government has these international agreements in place. Right. They work with the International Whaling Commission. They're a member of it. And so they wanted us to be a part of that process. Like the Alaskan Eskimos on the North Slope.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

So we agreed to do that. We went and advocated for a quota, worked with the Alaskan Eskimos and the Chukotkins in Russia to get an aboriginal subsistence whaling quota through the International Whaling Commission.

[Host (Steve)]

And what kind of quota were you looking for?

[Chairman TJ Green]

One? Well, they do it over multiple years.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

I see.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. So it was like, at that time, it was up to five whales in any given year over like a five, six year period.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

And you guys hit enormous resistance.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Absolutely, yes.

[Host (Steve)]

Where in that first go around back in the 90s, Was government resistance or social resistance strongest?

[Chairman TJ Green]

I think the social resistance was strongest. But that translates into government resistance. Right. I see things get. Where's the political temperature of my constituents if you're a politician in D.C. and how much do I want to support this issue? So those things come into play. But it was pretty bad for, you know, these guys when they were. When they were younger in school, you know, there were. Our community was getting threatened, you know, physically threatened. Bomb threats in our. In our schools.

[Host (Steve)]

But by who, though?

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, there were. It's mainly your animal welfare groups.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. So. But that's what I'm saying. So the organizations were doing this. Was it like, like Greenpeace or what were the organizations that were coming after you or was it just like crackpot individuals?

[Chairman TJ Green]

There was a lot of crackpot individuals, but there was one organization, Sea Shepherd Society.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

That. That was the main one that, that, you know, they're. They're very aggressive and. And, you know, they'd send their ships into our harbor that we have and get on the loudspeaker and, you know, just start putting insults out there to our community, which really. Yeah, yeah. We had to get a federal restraining order on them. And did you really? And the Coast Guard enforced that and eventually kept them away, but yeah, it wasn't good for a while.

[Host (Steve)]

They were coming into your bay, into your harbor.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

In a. In a ship, I mean, obviously.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Huh.

[Host (Steve)]

And you guys, you guys never. You guys. It didn't ever blow into, like, fist fights and brawls and stuff.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Now, there was some very, very close, I guess, encounters. Yeah, there was. There might have been some rock throwing and.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Things of that nature. The community got fed up with them. Right.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. So we have a blast every summer. Fishing, swimming, camping out, shooting bows, sitting around the fire. Last weekend, we were floating the creek and then doing some metal detecting, and we found what I believe to be a very old horseshoe. It's all the best. And if you're looking for the perfect companion to your summer adventures, try the refreshing citrus kick of Mountain Dew. From its beginnings in the foothills of Tennessee, invented by two brothers back in 1948, Mountain Dew has been a constant. And they've got proud American roots. It's an American original of citrusy goodness. You can celebrate summer and America's 250th birthday with mountain Dew. Whether you're at the grill on the beach or right in your living room, sipping on a Mountain Dew is a great way to start a damn good time. Enjoy the refreshing citrus kick of Mountain Dew, an American original. Tasting great since 48. Look for mountain Dew in stores near you@mountain Dew.com. that's Mountain Dew.com

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[Host (Steve)]

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[Spin Quest Advertiser]

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[Host (Steve)]

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[Host (Steve)]

10 bucks for 30. I'm headed over to spinquest.com right now. Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. So within your community in the 90s, was there division around the idea of resuming whaling? Or was it pretty much unanimous within with within the macaw? Was it like, this is our right? This is what we're going to go do? The population is strong enough to support limited harvest, or was it a fight amongst you guys?

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, it was heavily supported.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

I mean, we have a need statement, you know, 80 I think in the 90s it was like 84, 85% of the community wants to go back and do this.

[Host (Steve)]

So overwhelming.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Overwhelming.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

In our need statements we've done, we have to do those for the international whaling quota that we get, and that's just gone up since then. But it, you know, that there were people that didn't want to go back to it, and we just work through that. Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Did you. I mean, that turned in. I followed that whole thing. I forgot a lot of the details now, but I remember being very interested in it and it turned into,

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

I

[Host (Steve)]

mean, it turned into a media spectacle.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It did.

[Host (Steve)]

Like, everybody had an opinion about it. Right. It kind of, like, maybe not for you guys, but for the, in the normal. In the normal. Like if you're just a dude that followed the news, the main thing that was reported was like, was the social fight.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

It became a news story about this dispute that seemed to over probably, maybe not from your community, but that seemed to. The coverage of the argument overshadowed any conversation about how many whales are there, what is your treaty. Right. It became like the story, became the dispute.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, it certainly did. Yeah, it certainly did. I think, you know, our local media, which is out of Seattle, you know, those, those stations, you know, they, they covered it.

[Host (Steve)]

Were they supportive generally

[Chairman TJ Green]

then? I wouldn't say they were generally supportive.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, I mean, they were looking to get the story. They, you know, they would go get on the ship with Paul Watson and on his. Whatever the heck his Sea shepherd boat was.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, they would cover it from that angle.

[Chairman TJ Green]

They cover it from that angle as well. And that, you know, that didn't sit well with us. You know, it's like, how, how can we build trust and think we're going to get a fair shake in the media if, you know, if we have those things going on, that was.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, but you guys, then you got, you got a whale. When you went out to get a whale after this hundred year break and whaling, you went out to get a whale. Did you launch out and go get a whale because you got all your paperwork in order, or did that become a point when you just went for it? Or did you have like your little permits and all printed out? You know, I mean, like, what, what, what ultimately happened?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, well, we did, you know, agree on doing a permit system with the federal government that time, and we'd have a permit issued, you know, for a hunt period. And, you know, we wouldn't give specifics on a date and time. Right. But it's like, hey, we're going to. There's a permit. Covers. Covers this amount of time. And. And then, you know, that permit would be issued by the government, and then we'd issue our own permit to our whaling crew to go do the hunt.

[Host (Steve)]

So you could keep a little bit secret, like when this was going to go down.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes. Yeah. For their safety. For their safety.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, sure, man.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Because it was. Yeah. I mean, you may have seen the video of our whalers being charged by.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Activists out there on the water on jet skis, you know, looking like they're going to ram them. And, you know, the Coast Guard took them out before they took our canoe out.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. Because they were just waiting.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

So walk me through that day. Walk me through that day. Like, how did that hunt day go down? I mean, like, let's forget. Let's forget for a minute the jet skiers and the protesters and whatnot. But like. Like, how. How did the day play out? Just from a hunter's perspective, from a hunting. A whaling perspective, what happened that day?

[Chairman TJ Green]

But, you know, Daniel, you want to go through that or.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, so I guess the. The day before, I think they had a lot of success on. On approaches. And so it was pretty well known that they're going to get it that next day. I think all the stars were aligning, all the prayer training, everything, you know, came. Came together that day. And it was kind of a feeling that. That everyone had.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

And so they're getting. They're getting it down. Right. The. The approaches, the. The. The studying of the whales, the watching the feeding currents and.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

So.

[Host (Steve)]

And when you say approaches, you mean just getting the boat up to it, like how to approach.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

How to approach.

[Host (Steve)]

Approach the whale?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the teachings are coming. Coming together.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Time on the water was paying off. And so, yeah, it was. It was a magical moment when they harpooned the whale. It's ingrained in every macaw's mind, I think, that day.

[Host (Steve)]

At what distance today? Like, like how close did you have to approach that whale?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

You have to be pretty close. Pretty much right on top of it. Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. Because, you know, you don't normally. You know, we spent a lot of time in southeast Alaska. There's always whales around.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

You don't. You don't wind up right on top of them. No, you know, they. They gotta. They know what's going on, you know, I mean, they don't, you know.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yep.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

You're watching and studying them just like. Like you watch elk and study elk eating habits. You're watching the currents, and. And you're knowing where to position yourself, you know, to have a successful strike.

[Host (Steve)]

So. So you're trying to. You're trying to. When it goes down, I imagine you're trying to anticipate where it's going to come up.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Where it's going to come up, and then you're watching it's breathing. I mean, there's a. There's a lot of different techniques that go into it.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah. They're up at surface for X amount

[Host (Steve)]

of time and I got it before

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

they go under and then. Yeah, you never do. When they're feeding, you never know where they're going to come up again. So.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. And the approach, I'm guessing the approach has got to be like, on its sixth position, like you're coming from behind it.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

There's a couple different ways to. Yes, that is one of them. Yeah. You don't want them to, you know, tail slap you or something.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, yeah, I got you.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

So when they got. They hand harpooned it.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Hand harpooned it, yes.

[Host (Steve)]

And how did you guys make the. How did you guys build your harpoon? Like what, what did you do? What kind of thought did you put into that?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

It was the traditional harpoon. So all those techniques are passed down for generations. So we quit whaling in the 1920s, but we never quit teaching about it.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, I see.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

So the importance of it, like you said, is the pinnacle of our society. So, you know, we held on to those teachings.

[Host (Steve)]

Did people hold on to some of the equipment?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

The equipment also. Yes. So, yeah, we do have. Really? Yeah. So we have equipment from a long time ago.

[Host (Steve)]

Do you really?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah. And each family had their own, so.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, is that right? Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah. Yeah. Along with, you know, ceiling and. And, you know, other. Other marine mammals.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. So they, they got a harpoon into it and it's got a detachable head on it. Or somehow it's connected to a line.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

The first piece. Yeah, yeah. Or the valve, whatever you call it.

[Host (Steve)]

Yep. That gets into it. And then there's a float system.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yep. So it starts paying out. And then the. There's a buoy tender that's sitting to the right of the harpooner and he's clipping on buoys while they're slowing down. You have to be one. The crew has to be in unison.

[Host (Steve)]

Yep.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

So to turn the canoe into the right direction and get heading forward so the line don't pay out, you know, too fast. You have a line tender, buoy tender.

[Host (Steve)]

How much line?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

It depends about you know, 270ft or so or more.

[Host (Steve)]

And you're clipping buoys on as it goes.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Clipping buoys as it goes, yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Is that thing at risk of sinking?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Definitely, yeah. So the more buoys the better, though.

[Host (Steve)]

So it's not just to slow it down, but to keep it from sinking.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Keep it from sinking, yes.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Got it.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Should chat about the seal skin float system.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Oh, yeah. The old floats were made out of seal skins. They were skinned in such a way where you could turn them inside out and. And inflate them. Yeah, they're big, you know, big floats. Some of them are, you know, six feet or more.

[Host (Steve)]

So and when this was happening, there's. How many people are observing this?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

The actual hunt? Yeah, the 99 hunt or.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, yeah, the 99 hunt.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Oh, there's hundreds of people, you know, outside the zone. Those Coast Guard set a. A zone for the.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, they said a perimeter.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Perimeter.

[Host (Steve)]

So your people could be in the perimeter, but other people had to stay out of the perimeter.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Our canoe and our. Our chase boat. So.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. How far was it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

How far.

[Host (Steve)]

How far out to sea are you when this is happening? Like, how far from your, how far from your reservation are you?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

We're, you know, they migrate past our front door. So.

[Host (Steve)]

So you just hunt close to home?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

We hunt close to home. Yeah. We can also hunt, you know, out further at sea if we're going after. If we went after different species. So.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay. And you're. And you're not. Do they draw, like, does the government draw a line and say these waters are okay?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

They did do a restricted zone, Right.

[Chairman TJ Green]

For to harvest a whale in?

[Spin Quest Advertiser]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Like, let's say you wanted to take off. Like, you, you would never go take off and be like, oh, hey, we're going to go whale up. We're going to go whale up in Alaska and try that out.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

They had, they had to specify in some way where you can go.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, that. That's a really, really great question. And I got a couple answers for that, actually. There's. So for the 99 hunt. Yes, there was a defined hunt area.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

We agreed to stay out of the Strait of Juan de Fuca and just on the Pacific Ocean.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

The tribe has a usual and accustomed fishing area that's adjudicated that went to

[Host (Steve)]

the Supreme Court from that Stevens Treaty.

[Chairman TJ Green]

From that Stevens Treaty. So. So we have a defined area, but that's only for fishing. We do not have a defined area for whaling. And the court was very specific about that because we in. In that court Case we, we brought forward our whaling and sealing activities as part of that. And the government said, we're here to just talk about fishing, your usual in a custom fishing area. We, we acknowledge that you, you've gone 80 to 100 miles offshore for whaling, but we're not going to allow that evidence as part of that case.

[Host (Steve)]

Why did they want to punt on that question?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, I think it's a limit to limit us, really. It's to limit.

[Host (Steve)]

Because they're like, let's talk about the local stuff. Let's not talk about the far out stuff.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Because they wanted to shrink that zone.

[Chairman TJ Green]

They wanted to put us in a box. Because before that case, Makah people, we fished from California all the way up to the Bering Sea under.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Under our treaty, you know, like people just take off.

[Host (Steve)]

Correct. And go on sea journeys. I'm imagining.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. And now we're put in a box.

[Host (Steve)]

I gotcha. But they never fixed the whaling box.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. There's no whaling box right now.

[Host (Steve)]

So in 99, when they made a whaling box, they didn't, it wasn't as big as the fishing box.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No. And in our current permit.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

We have an agreed upon area as well, which is essentially on the Pacific Ocean outside of the Strait of Juan de Fuca. And then there's a national marine sanctuary that's out there now. So there's areas of other marine mammals, haul out, areas for seals and sea lions and things like that that we, you know, we agree to transit in a responsible manner while we're hunting, you know.

[Host (Steve)]

So you've agreed to stay out of the sanctuaries.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Not, not out of the sanctuary.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay, not out of it. I got you.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, no, the sanctuaries is, is within our waters. I got you. Yeah. So we, we fish and exercise our treaty in the sanctuary.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

And they're, they're, they've been a good partner and they support that.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

The 99 hunt happens. It's now 2026. Why was there not a 2000 hunt, a 2001 hunt, 2002 hunt? Like what happened there was. Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

And you know, Daniel, can, there was a movie. Talk about those, those hunts. But in, in 2002, you know, I believe there was an injunction put on our whaling.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

The federal government was sued over their, you know, how they put together the NEPA for our whale hunt and that they didn't, didn't do a thorough job. And that was.

[Host (Steve)]

So that was in 2002 that they came in and said they, they blocked it. Or something.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Correct. Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

But did you. Did you guys have the desire to continue? Like, would you have continued if that injunction hadn't happened? Was the desire there that you do an annual whale hunt?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Absolutely.

[Host (Steve)]

Why did you pay attention to. I'm not criticizing, but, like, when the injunction came, what was the decision to abide by it?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Rule of law, you know.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's. It's. You know, I think we. You know, our. Our leadership and our Makah people, you know, believe in that. You know, we have our own laws that we pass as well.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Around those and things.

[Host (Steve)]

I got you. Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. Things that we agree to. And so it's. I don't know, that whole. That's. I can get into that more if you want, but, I mean, there's really a lot to say around. Around that.

[Host (Steve)]

You mean, around internal debates about how do we negotiate and engage with the government? Yeah, I mean, we don't need to spend tons of time on it. But you've exercised where you've generally been. I mean, I know this, but

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

you've

[Host (Steve)]

generally been trying to work within the constraints of the regulatory bodies in the federal government.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

And haven't stepped outside of that. Like, haven't gone. The vigilante wouldn't be the right word. But haven't gone your own way on it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, you know, we. We did have a. We had a group of macaws that got frustrated with the process.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

At one point. Yeah. But, you know, so in 2002, you know, I think there was an injunction and court case, Anderson vs. Evans court case that took place. And, you know, that basically, that case basically decided that the Marine Mammal Protection act applies to the Makah tribe.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Which we, to this day, we disagree with that. You know, we don't think that's a correct ruling, but we're stuck with it.

[Host (Steve)]

I got you.

[Chairman TJ Green]

And so under the Marine Mammal Protection act, it requires you to get a waiver to take a marine mammal, in our case, whaling. And then after a waiver, the government has to issue a permit. So in 2004, we submitted documents to start that application process for a waiver under the Remandalt Protection Act. And we've been in that process ever since.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Got it.

[Host (Steve)]

In the meantime, have gray whales stayed off the. Were gray whales delisted and stayed off the list?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yes.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

So no one's put them back on the endangered species list?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

No.

[Host (Steve)]

Can you guys explain to me. I wasn't aware of this till Nate told me you guys get gray whales from ship Strikes like you'll be. You'll take. Is this true that you'll take possession of gray whales that are. That are killed and from. From getting hit by boats or tangled in nets or something like that?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes, yes, we have.

[Host (Steve)]

How does that play out?

[Chairman TJ Green]

We have a process with National Marine Fisheries to obtain those for our use. We basically submit a request for this incidental take because of whatever that mortality event was, whether it's a ship strike or some entanglement. And then we have our own marine mammal biologists that. That works with the tribe as well. So when that happens, we decide if we want to utilize that whale, and then we tow it to our shores and we check the health of it, see how fresh it is. Is it something that's fresh enough? Is the whale healthy? Is it something that we can harvest the blubber and the meat for consumption, you know, or do we, you know, just butcher it up and utilize some of the other parts, whether it's the bones, the vertebrae, you know, Baleen. You know that.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Okay.

[Host (Steve)]

And is it your job to go fetch it?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes. Not mine specifically, but. Yeah, but the macaw people, Right.

[Host (Steve)]

So how does it. How does. Because this has to happen fast. Right. So how does it come to you? You know, let's say a cruise ship hits a whale, right? Bam. They hit a whale. It's crippled, it's dying. Like, the phone rings. How does this play out?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Just like that. It does get the phone.

[Host (Steve)]

Someone calls, someone calls.

[Chairman TJ Green]

People know that macaws are whalers in that area, and there's a whole reporting system for those sort of things. So when those reports happen, sometimes that call comes from a federal government official. Say, hey, we got this report. Yeah, there's this whale located off a Tatoosh island or wherever. And. And so we go check it out.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it. You send your own boats out and your own agency guys or whatever out and check it out.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

You know what I saw? Long time ago. Have you ever heard of, you know, Cook Inlet and turning an arm in Alaska? So we were way up turning an arm, going salmon fishing, and that thing gets flooded on these huge tide swings, and belugas come in there when the salmon are running, belugas come up into this long. I don't know, it's like a. Like an arm. Like a fjord kind of thing. And it's at low tide, it's a mud flat for the most part. And at high tide, it's enough water for a beluga whale. We're way up in that arm, 20 miles up in that arm because it was 20 mile river and there's these belugas in there and we're talking about, me and my brother talking about how do they get out of there? We're like, they must have a channel or something that we can't see. And we just go about our business fishing. Well, the next day in the newspaper is those whales that we are commenting on, like wondering how they're gonna get out of that little pool they're in are dead. And it was. And I don't know what tribe did it, but they, I mean, they rushed out there and got them all butchered and hauled out of there like quick, you know, And I always remember being kind of impressed by that, like what a haul that was, you know, but just utilized them all when you think they normally lay there and rot.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, we've. We try to utilize everything on that whale. And when those unfortunate things happen. Yeah, we don't want those things to go to waste if we, we can get them in time.

[Host (Steve)]

How is it divided up like something like that happens? I mean, it's a huge haul of food. Let's say you get one that's like uber, like mega fresh, or you kill one and it's real fresh. In your view, does every macaw have it right to some of it. Anyone that wants it has a right to it or does it play out differently?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, So I think eventually, yeah, we'd like to be that. I mean, there's harpooner usually has, you know, can. Can get what he wants.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

But yeah, it gets divided amongst the crew and then that goes to their families. So.

[Host (Steve)]

I see.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

What's the most coveted part?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

There's parts that we do ceremonies with. Oh, it's the most coveted. Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay. But what about just for regular everyday consumption? What part is the best?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

My favorites of skin and blubber. I absolutely love that. No taste, tastes like the ocean.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, I've had some of that. Yeah, I've had some of that. It's amazing.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, it's.

[Chairman TJ Green]

That's.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

I. You can't beat that in my book. No, these guys might have.

[Host (Steve)]

That's one thing if you can imagine,

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

like

[Host (Steve)]

picture like sushi restaurants, like high end sushi restaurants and stuff where people want to try interesting things. That item, when they, you know, like cut it with, it's like almost like that french fry shape with a little bit of skin on it. Yeah, that item would be the most popular thing in the world if people got turned on to that. It was amazing. We ate some right Here.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Oh, nice.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah. No, that's good stuff.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

What about the meat? The actual meat?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, I like the meat, too. I mean, what's it like? Porpoise?

[Host (Steve)]

Tastes like porpoise.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah. No, seal. I mean, it's. It's got its own taste, but I

[Host (Steve)]

mean, like, put it, like, with stuff that I'd be familiar with or. Can't you even draw?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

I can't draw a comparison.

[Host (Steve)]

I got.

[Spin Quest Advertiser]

It's just.

[Host (Steve)]

It's just different.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

It's like ocean elk.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Super. It's super lean. The meat itself is super lean. It's super. There's a lot of blood in it.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

But dark. Yeah, it's real dark. You can throw it on a smoker. You can fry it up like a steak. You can do. You could braise it. I mean, there's.

[Chairman TJ Green]

What.

[Host (Steve)]

What parts? Like, I'm just. Imagine it's not like, flaying the fish.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Like.

[Host (Steve)]

Like, you're. You're. What would be like a. How do you describe the parts of it? You know, like, let's say you're doing an elk. You'd be okay. We got the back straps, right. You know, I mean, you got your grind pile. You got your ribs. You know, I mean, like, when you're doing a whale, is it that there's parts that are good for this, but parts that are good for that?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I mean, I think you separate, naturally separate into blubber. You have your blubber and skin, and then you have your meat. And so you kind of think of it as, like, if you've seen some of the pictures from 99 or some of the other things where they're butchering in sections and you get a. You know, you take the section and. And you kind of have this big blob of meat that has a ton of blubbers, ton of meat and, you know, is enough for, you know, plenty of your family if you were to cook it up for 6, 8, 10 people and.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, and our guys freezing it. Like. Freezing it up.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah. Especially with the. The last kind of ship strike. Whales that were healthy, they were divided up and. And passed around the community. And people froze the blubber. People froze some of the meat, and then obviously, everybody took advantage of. Of tasting it, eating it right away, rendering the oil, smoking some of the meat. And it's cool because you see it, you know, shared around the community, and it's just a. It's really cool.

[Host (Steve)]

Tell me a way. Tell me a couple ways. One might fix the meat. Like, cook the meat.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Jerky.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, whale jerky.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Jerky. That's the best jerky I've ever had.

[Host (Steve)]

Really?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah. A guy that used to be on the whaling commission, God rest his soul, Gary Ray, he made whale jerky and was really. It was the best drink I ever had. Huh.

[Host (Steve)]

Just sliced it thin, dried it, Air dried it.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah. Or smoked it. I mean, smoke. Yeah, he had a, you know, traditional smokehouse, and he smoked it up in

[Host (Steve)]

there, hung those strips in there.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

He's like, here. He gave me some. I tried it and I was like, oh, Like, I didn't want that. Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

But he also makes the best salmon. Candied salmon.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Hell, yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Also, he knows what's up with making the dry products.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

He was. He was like. He was really good at all that stuff.

[Host (Steve)]

Is there any such thing? Like, do you guys. Do you guys grind. Do you guys make. Grind meat from deer and elk and stuff? Would anybody ever grind up whale meat?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I don't think anybody's thought of it.

[Host (Steve)]

To make, like, a whale burger, it would be like, that kind of meat.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

It's interesting, too, because of the, you know, how, you know, you have your. Your elk towel, you have your elk fat binds really well. Yeah. Keep your grinder cold. You grind your meat, add your fat, it stays really well. I imagine whale blubber.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Oh.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Would melt, be oily, such a lower temperature.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

And so, I mean, I imagine your patty would kind of fall apart.

[Host (Steve)]

No, I could imagine that because if

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

everybody was to get, like, distributed from a whale, you'd get about seven pounds of meat and then about one point, just about two pounds of blubber, so.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, you mean if you're. If your whole tribe. Yeah, all the tribal membership shared a whale, it'd be £7 a piece. That divides it out pretty good.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

We have a blast every summer. Fishing, swimming, camping out, shooting bows, sitting around the fire. Last weekend, we were floating a creek and then doing some metal detecting, and we found what I believe to be a very old horseshoe. It's all the best. And if you're looking for the perfect companion to your summer adventures, try the refreshing citrus kick of Mountain Dew. From its beginnings in the foothills of Tennessee, invented by two brothers back in 1948, Mountain Dew has been a constant. And they've got proud American roots. It's an American original of citrusy goodness. You can celebrate summer and America's 250th birthday with mountain Dew. Whether you're at the grill, on the beach, or right in your living room, sipping on a Mountain Dew is a great way to start a damn good time. Enjoy the refreshing citrus kick of Mountain Dew, an American original. Tasting great since 48. Look for mountain Dew in stores near you@mountain Dew.com that's Mountain Dew.com. Check engine ABS or maintenance line on. Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified Master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend a shop for you.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan today.

[Host (Steve)]

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[Host (Steve)]

play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spin benquest.com for more details. How is that oil? Is it stored as a liquid or a solid or how's it stored?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Usually stored as a liquid, so usually it's rendered real slow.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Rendered down.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Sometimes. Some people, especially with seal, they'll smoke like a cold smoke or they'll smoke at first, but they'll render it down into a smoke.

[Host (Steve)]

Oil smoke.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

The.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah, the blubber. A blubber. And then you get a smoky oil.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Oh, really?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

But you generally now people render that oil down into a. Like a mason jar. Like the salmon that's out there.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

And you can keep it like that for.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's a bit like ever. Honey and cinnamon that don't really go bad.

[Host (Steve)]

I got you.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, I got. You can freeze it. You can freeze the whale oil.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

I spent some time with some Chupik Eskimo guys and they would have seal oil.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Oh, man.

[Host (Steve)]

And I remember we would dip fish in it. Just like where you're eating frozen. Raw. Frozen fish. Like little chunks of like actually frozen fish dipped in the sea oil. And when you taste it, man, it would be like the real pepper. Like, I can't even describe it. Like peppery, like olive oil. Like a. Like a. Not a burn, but you know what I'm saying? There's like a pepper. Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Bold.

[Host (Steve)]

How do you describe that whale oil? Is it mild? Is it like kind of grabs you when you taste it?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Depends on who it is. I mean, it's pretty normal. Like, it's pretty mild for us. Yeah, kind of. Everybody's kind of used to it.

[Host (Steve)]

But if you handed it to some kid, like, I don't like some kid. That never had any kind of that stuff. Would that kid be like, oh, that's good, or the kid be like, man, that is wild taste.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

It's probably tastes like, like omegas.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Like your fish oil.

[Host (Steve)]

So. Okay, so it's got like, it's got that, a little bit of, it's got that fish oil taste to it. And how do you, how are you using it? You're dipping meat in it.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah. I mean, you could use it a ton of different ways. I'm sure there's still ways to expand that. That palette now that, you know, once we get back into the mix. But I mean, generally like you said dipping fish or even bread or different things with, with your dinner.

[Host (Steve)]

Do you ever oil a pan with it?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I haven't, but I mean, you.

[Host (Steve)]

The reason you couldn't, I don't know,

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

could cook with it.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I don't know what the smoke temp is, to be honest, because it's rendered really low temperature. I see a super low temperature. Or you'll burn it.

[Host (Steve)]

I got you.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

So you'll get a real like dark amber. Like you'll see first timers making like rendering whale oil and it's like real dark. And then you kind of get the, the older folks who are like, oh,

[Host (Steve)]

they know how to keep it clean and clear.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

So it's like whiskey colored or something.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Well, so like generally it's like, like light olive oil, even lighter than that. Oh, is that pretty clear?

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, okay.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

It's not. I mean, it's not on the wild

[Host (Steve)]

picture being like honey.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

No, it's not like water. But the, like the smoked seal oil kind of a little closer to like an olive oil color. Yeah, but generally it's like the clear the better. It's like you did a good job rendering it. If it's nice and clear.

[Host (Steve)]

Is there a. Does your commute. Does your community have. Is there a communal area where stuff gets done or do people. Would it be that hundreds of people would go home and all render oil on their own? Or do you have a big spot where you just render all the oil collectively and then hand it out?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Well, generally when the whale gets, you know, gets pulled up, right. You know, drop an elk, it's there, it's in that spot. But we pull up the whale and it kind of gets distributed there and that's where the time is. You know, everybody's hustling to make sure it's taking care of business. And then, you know, wherever you take that, your portion, you know, probably similar to an elk, you Go home and okay, clean it up, make sure it's nice and good. And then you take your section it apart and then you plan to do your oil.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it? That's, that's your own business in your own area. Like, it's cut up in a, In a way where people that want some get some. But then if you got your chunk of meat, you go home and deal with your chunk of meat. I got.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

But not to say there can't be, you know, I'm sure, like those are some of the things that, that are really kind of frustrating to notice is you see other tribes and other places have these communal ceremonies of like, they're celebrating the teaching their like kids how to process these different animals. And for us to not even let alone not only be not able to wail, but not able to even engage in those ceremonies, to physically show our younger kids how to do this kind of stuff, you know. And so the tribe's doing really well at know, hey, the, the process of making paddles never died, never will. Processes of, you know, making harpoons. Like, we have our cultural and research center who has an incredible display of. Of all of the mod. All the technology for whaling and all of those. You know, there's folks who are well detailed in, in, you know, making your harpoons and, and teaching your kids to. And, and family how to do those things. But for us to not be able to kind of, you know, it's kind of like that box that you're in. You think about being able to have those kind of ceremonies. We're like, hey, macaw's coming together like Makada's. But for just us to teach generations how to do this process and to

[Host (Steve)]

get better at it, how to handle stuff.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

You mentioned porpoise. You guys, is. You guys hunt seal and porpoise.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

And that, that's, that's less like. That's just kind of, that's, that's less like regulatory stuff involved in that.

[Chairman TJ Green]

There's regulations around that. There's. It's incidental take permits that we get issued. You know, we work with National Marine Fishery Service again and our marine mammal biologists. You know, if we do any, any type of incidental take.

[Host (Steve)]

What does incidental take mean?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Gets caught up in fishing gear throughout fishing.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay, so that would be how you'd wind up with one.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right?

[Host (Steve)]

I got you.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. And then we. There's a reporting system that we have

[Host (Steve)]

to report that if you have, if you have a porpoise. What is that? Porpoise good for Would you use it exactly how you use a whale? Pretty similar blubber, skin, meat.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Oil.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

They actually do have back straps, though.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I've heard it's very good, very good tasting.

[Host (Steve)]

You've heard that?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I've heard that.

[Host (Steve)]

But you haven't tried it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

But it's good, Steve.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

It's.

[Host (Steve)]

Word is. Word is this could be good.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Where it is. It's great.

[Host (Steve)]

All right, so I want to get into time. I want to get back to this timeline more and try to get, like, where the. Where the situation stands right now. So the injunction goes in 2000, 2001. What was it? 2002, 2002, 2002. The federal government in all its forms, Noah, us, whatever, all the agencies, it comes down. We don't need to get into the details, but basically it comes down, hey, there's an injunction. The Makah, you're done whaling 2002, but now you're talking about whaling again. Like, you're getting ready to go. You want to get everything squared away to go. What. What happened this time around?

[Chairman TJ Green]

So in 2004, we made an application for a waiver to go whaling under the Remamal Protection Act. And there's no process for it, so we had to work with the government to develop that process as we went.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, you had to ask them, let's say a fellow wanted a waiver. What would the waiver need to look like? And you got a legal team. I mean, you got lawyers?

[Chairman TJ Green]

We do.

[Host (Steve)]

Like, you just got lawyers getting paid to do this kind of stuff.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes. Huh? Yes, we do. Yeah. And so we've been in that process, you know, since 2004, since we first put in that notice. We've had to reboot it a few times.

[Host (Steve)]

So are they just. Do they just kind of slow walk you like, they stall it?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

But I mean, for years.

[Chairman TJ Green]

For years. Yeah. There's, you know, you're looking at a lot of the. Both scientific and the biological information, you know, with the whale population. And so in that process, the government, like anybody can sue the federal government. Right. So that's their real concern. It's like they don't want to get sued and lose. So they're. So the slow walking is so that they're thorough on their end.

[Host (Steve)]

No, I understand.

[Chairman TJ Green]

And yeah, that's an area, and it can withstand a challenge in court.

[Host (Steve)]

I got you.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

So that's.

[Host (Steve)]

That's.

[Chairman TJ Green]

That's part of the. Part of why it's been delayed so long. We think it's unreasonable, you know, and now we went we were finally issued a waiver in 2018, I believe. Is that the right year?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

2024. The waiver for the June.

[Chairman TJ Green]

The waiver or we applied for the waiver in 18. Maybe it was.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

We had the 2400 page environmental impact statement.

[Chairman TJ Green]

That's what came out. So yeah, anyway.

[Host (Steve)]

That you guys generated a 2400 page environmental impact statement.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, no, no, it did.

[Host (Steve)]

Noah did.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

An environmental impact statement about what would happen if you got a whale.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yes.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

So once that was done, then we would be able to apply for the waiver. Granted the waiver, and then goes to the permit system.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, here's where I'm a little bit confused. Go ahead. But I'll tell you what's confusing me.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Okay, so there's a ALJ administrative law judge hearing on, on this and

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

we

[Chairman TJ Green]

had to basically go through this court process, bring in, tell the government how we're going to do the hunt, how we're going to manage it, and bring in our cultural experts and all those. Daniel testified in that. And the judge recommended that we be granted the waiver because that's what I was trying to get at earlier. And in that timeline. And then we're finally granted that waiver in 2024. And then in March of 2025, we applied for a permit. You know, we're, we're granted the waiver. Now you got to get a permit

[Host (Steve)]

for, for how many whales?

[Chairman TJ Green]

So it's for 20, up to 25 whales over a 10 year period.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

So, okay. That's what I was confused about.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Okay.

[Host (Steve)]

Is I was like, if you look at just the population demographics of whales, which I don't understand well, but I gather these are long lived, low fecundity creatures, but there are thousands of them. So in my mind I'm like, how could any serious person argue that harvesting a whale a year is going to have a population level impact? No, when you factor in that you have this mortality happening from cruise ships, you have mortality happening from entanglements, you have mortality happening from strandings. And then someone would say, but if you get one, that's gonna, that's gonna tank the gray whale population.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Now we agree with you 100%.

[Host (Steve)]

That seems like such a weird. It's like they're dying all over the place. We're talking about, oh, whale. But I guess if you're looking at 2.5 whales a year, if you had said one whale a year, would it have been a different conversation or would it have been all the same bs?

[Chairman TJ Green]

It probably would have Been all the same bs.

[Host (Steve)]

It wouldn't have changed anything.

[Chairman TJ Green]

I don't think it would have changed anything. You know, I think our. Our opponents are adversaries on this.

[Host (Steve)]

You know, they're absolutists.

[Chairman TJ Green]

They're absolutists. And so we're. The way we propose to do the hunt is, you know, the most we could. Most whales we could take in any. Any year under this waiver is two.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Because. Can't take a half a whale, right?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

So. And it's only one per hunt season. So there's. The hunt season that we're applying for is a summer fall hunt, starts July 1, goes through October 31.

[Host (Steve)]

So you got like an opening day and everything?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

You guys like white people. You got, like, opening days.

[Chairman TJ Green]

And if, you know, if we harvest a whale, then that's done. That permit for that period is done. And we have to wait for. We can't go the very next year in that hunt period. We gotta wait till the following year. Oh, to go. We can also apply for a permit for a separate hunt season, which is a winter. Spring goes from December to. Through May.

[Host (Steve)]

I got you.

[Chairman TJ Green]

And we could harvest a whale during that as well. But once we harvest that whale, then that hump period's done. So we wouldn't get more than two a year under how it's structured right now. And right now, we're not proposing to go in that. In that winter spring hunt. You know, it's. It's more dangerous. The whales are farther offshore, so it's. It's more ideal to go in the summer, fall hunt period.

[Host (Steve)]

What kind of ground are these gray whales covering? Like, what's their northern range and southern range? Because when they come by you, they're coming through, right?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right. Yeah, they're coming through the eastern North Pacifics that we're targeting. You know, they go from Baja, California to the Sakhalin Islands. You know, way up.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

I don't know.

[Host (Steve)]

Sakhalin.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's way up in the, you know, the Bering Strait, Russia.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, really?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

It's got you.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, that's her. That's their feeding range.

[Host (Steve)]

So these seasons is. You're. It's. It's. It's different swings of a migration.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

Like, one, I'm just. Like one is that they're sort of generally moving south, and one, they're generally moving north.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Correct.

[Host (Steve)]

I got you. And that summer season, they're generally moving north.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Right now they're moving south to go down to the Baja to have their calves and, you know, breeding. Huh. Then they make.

[Host (Steve)]

Now they are.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah. So right now they're going past us, they're feeding and, you know, slowly making their way down there, and they have their calves, and then the. The male whale start making it up, and the females make it up after them with their calf slowly.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay. Oh, when you. If you imagine the ideal whale, is it a male or female?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Male.

[Host (Steve)]

Can you tell?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

There's a way. You want to. You want to explain how you. You tell how a female is and a male.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Go ahead.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

So you have to stick your arm in them, and if it goes a certain direction, that's a male or a female, but.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, but that's dead. Checking them.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah, that's.

[Host (Steve)]

You can't live check them.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

It's a little harder.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, okay. So there's not like it wouldn't be that.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

We have an observer that, like a specialist, a marine specialist that identifies if it's a male or a female for us before we strike it. Because we can't strike a female. We have to go after males.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, okay. That's okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

So it would be out of the question to kill a female with a calf. Yeah, that's correct. That's not gonna happen.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah, not gonna happen.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it. And you're targeting males. Yeah, I see.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

And whether we get. Get it or not, those same whales, we have the. The shared quota, basically. So if we don't get them, it goes into their quota, those two whales that we're not getting that tribe.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Kak.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Where.

[Host (Steve)]

Where are they located?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Chotkin. Chokin.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

They're.

[Chairman TJ Green]

They're Russians, homie.

[Host (Steve)]

Your quota goes to the Russians.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Okay. Yeah, there's.

[Host (Steve)]

Seriously.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. During the. In when I explain and we. We first agreed to be part of this international process.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Federal government wanted us to do that. We said okay. And so we went and did it. There's a whaling quota given globally to whaling nations, and that right through this process. Well, there's an already established quota for these gray whales, the eastern North Pacifics, that was mainly being taken by the Chukotkins up in Russia. And so when we first started working to get our international quota, what we were asking for the Chukotkans, we were able to build relationships with them and they supported us and they were willing to give up part of their quota so that we can continue our whaling. So it's an agreement that.

[Host (Steve)]

So did you have to send some ambassadors up to meet with these guys?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes, yes.

[Host (Steve)]

And talk this out and talk it

[Chairman TJ Green]

out and spend time with them during their Whaling activities, huh?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

And you guys were generally well received by them.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes, yes.

[Host (Steve)]

Do they have the same arguments with the Russian government? Not. Do they have the same level of negotiating with the Russian. Like, what are their treaties like?

[Chairman TJ Green]

I'm unsure. Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

I wonder if they have all the layers of government or if they just do their own thing or what. That's like dealing with the Russian government.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. I haven't been there myself. It's pretty remote, more remote than we are, so. So I imagine they don't have to deal with them quite as much.

[Host (Steve)]

Not as much. Yeah. Yeah. We keep getting into the timeline. Leaving the timeline. But where. Like, what are you waiting on right now? You're not going to wail this summer? Or you might.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, it's.

[Host (Steve)]

It's still possible this summer.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's still possible. Yeah, it's still possible. You know, we're. We're at the end of coming up on the end of July. You know, there's. The whales are still present. You know, that's. That's kind of the factor. You know, the whale's got to be there. But yeah, sure, when they decide to leave, you know, then. Then they're gone.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

But we're waiting on the Secretary of Commerce to. To sign the permit.

[Host (Steve)]

You're waiting on Howard Lutnick, Correct. To sign the permit?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Really?

[Host (Steve)]

He's got to sign it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

He does, or he's got to delegate someone to sign it.

[Host (Steve)]

And what's his thinking?

[Chairman TJ Green]

We don't know. We haven't been able to talk to him directly on this issue. We've requested it. We've requested government to. Government consultation on this, which. Normally those are honored by the federal

[Host (Steve)]

government, but these guys don't want to hear you out.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Not.

[Host (Steve)]

Or is it too early to say?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Not Howard himself yet, but his.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, his deputies.

[Chairman TJ Green]

His. His deputies. We've talked with them. They're super supportive.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, they are.

[Chairman TJ Green]

They've been great.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, I got you. All right, so there's no resistance there.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, we don't. And so it's. It's a little puzzling for us. Frustrating, for sure.

[Host (Steve)]

But, like, you mean, like the recept. The receptive. They're not dismissive. But then there's not the signature yet.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right, right. And I would say it's even more than receptive. I'd say they're supportive.

[Host (Steve)]

Supportive, yeah. Okay, so let's say. I mean, is it. Is there a possibility that tomorrow someone emails you over like a. Like, how does it happen? Like, one day someone signs it, and then there it Is.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes. So we have a pending permit application. I've actually signed my part of it already for 2025 and 2027.

[Host (Steve)]

Was it a docusign?

[Chairman TJ Green]

No.

[Host (Steve)]

Was it digital?

[Chairman TJ Green]

No.

[Host (Steve)]

It wasn't a paper document.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It was a paper document. Yeah. And we've. Well, our understanding last year was that we were, we were both going to sign this and it would be effective August 1st of2025.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

And we're preparing for that moment. We're working with, with our media teams and you know, going to be prepared for any. Whether it's pushback or, you know, people will want to tell the story.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Right.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, it's going to get some coverage and. Yeah. So we were, I mean we're just weeks away, two weeks away from what we thought being issued our first permit under last year and then nothing happened and we.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It just went radio silence.

[Host (Steve)]

And that's under the Trump administration.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, that's what's real puzzling about it. I mean these types of things is something hunting and outdoor type stuff. And those things seem right up this administration's alley. Right. You know, they seem to be supportive of.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. Like stripping regulations.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Less regulation. Those sort of things. So yeah, we, we're not sure what, what's going on.

[Host (Steve)]

But this, you, you might want to not even answer this and I would probably, I wouldn't. But I'll ask anyway just because of what you just said, is it possible to say something like this? Is it possible to say that, that, that who's better friends to the Makah, like generally Republicans or Democrats? Or is that not a possible. You can't answer it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, I've answered that question a number of times and I think both of them have their, they have their points.

[Host (Steve)]

That's what I think.

[Chairman TJ Green]

They have their points of where the friendship ends or starts.

[Host (Steve)]

Right.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, in general, and this is a pure generality is that, you know, Democrats will support our treaty right up until the point it starts conflicting with labor and jobs. Oh, you know, Republicans, they'll support our treaty right up into the point it starts affecting industry.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, so like the eight, like the age old conflicts. You just like find your own Indian way into the age old conflicts. But here's the thing between Democrats and Republicans.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Here's the thing is that. That your treaty rights should be nonpartisan.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. If it was a well written treaty, you'd think that it would be.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

That it would be debatable.

[Chairman TJ Green]

So.

[Host (Steve)]

But I mean, as you know, I mean documents don't always anticipate. Every development.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right?

[Host (Steve)]

But what's funny about. Not what's funny. What's interesting about treaty. Like, we look at the U.S. constitution, right? So the founding fathers didn't come in and be like, they didn't make a big passage about AI, right? So then you got to get down the road and you gotta say, well, how would they have looked at this issue? Based on what we know about how they looked at other issues? How might they look at, like, an AI issue? Okay, but. But what. What's. And you know way better than me. But if you look at tribal treaties, it literally contemplates hunting, fishing, landmarks, things that. That they're really clear about.

[Chairman TJ Green]

I agree. Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

I mean, it's like you can't get any more clear. Like, you guys are cool to go on and fish in here, right? So it's not like you're not contemplating AI. You're contemplating, like, a very concrete, specific activity so that people find so many things to debate about. It is. You know, I understand the complexities, but it's just. It's different because it's not abstract. It's like your fa. Your.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Your.

[Host (Steve)]

Your fathers argued this out.

[Chairman TJ Green]

They did, yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

And brought up like, hey, we need. We eat. This is what we eat. We need to be able to go get our food. Here's the deal, you know, and now you're in this situation where you're, like, arguing about it, which I understand. It's complicated, especially with something like whales.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, we're not even arguing right now.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

We're just waiting.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Wait.

[Chairman TJ Green]

We're just waiting.

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[Host (Steve)]

free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. If. If you all of a sudden get the permit, you also get the signature. Do you got a team? You know, you call it. Do you got a crew? Is there a crew ready to roll? They got the gear straight? They got the plan put together?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, we have. I mean, we got some additional training that will have to be done, you know, because, you know, to be able to go tomorrow, you know that, you know, if we get the permit signed tomorrow, there isn't a team that's going to launch tomorrow.

[Host (Steve)]

I see.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

How do you get to be. Who selects the crew?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Our whaling commission.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay. So you can't just freelance it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No.

[Host (Steve)]

2 dudes can't just be like, hell, I'm going. Like, that wouldn't fly.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, it don't. Okay.

[Host (Steve)]

No, it has the. It goes through the tribe. The Whaling Commission.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it. And how do you apply to be? Like, if you want to be on crew, what do you got to do? Who's on the crew?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah, so the way the, the Whaling Commission handles that kind of stuff is essentially the, you know, you're interested in being a captain, okay, you're responsible for the crew. So the captain is the one who will apply for the permit and the council, the Tribal Council's ultimate authority, that signs the permit for the crew. So if you're going to be a captain, you, you know, you gather your crew, you do everything you need to do, say, you know, like, you're doing for a hunt for whatever. You're gonna pick your guys, and this is what we're gonna do. This plan, train up, whatever. But the captains, you know, selects his crew, make sure they. They got everything going, and he's gonna be the one to take the crew out and to actually do the. Do the hunt.

[Host (Steve)]

So that captain goes to the commission and gets the. Okay. What if you had eight captains?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Well, so the commission will select the captains. The captains will select their crew.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

And the commission will make a recommendation to the council of. Of, you know, who should gather the permit based on who's, you know, who's ready. There might be one captain that's ready. There might be eight. And we've even talked about doing things like, you know, having multiple crews and. And, you know, not your first hunt's not always successful. Can be, but it's not always. And so we've talked about having different crews hunting at different times.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Y.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

That requires a.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

A.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

A couple different technicalities, you know, tribal hunt observers, hunting, both communication to make sure you're not doubling up. But there's a lot of. Of different ways that. That we've discussed internally on how to handle and on how to handle, you know, multiple crews, multiple captains, and.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

And even having the positions of the whalers just kind of trained up in multiple positions so that, you know, people get sick or people get hurt, or you can swap around and you can move. And.

[Host (Steve)]

So what would be the attributes of a captain he's coming out of. What is he.

[Spin Quest Advertiser]

Is.

[Host (Steve)]

Is he probably a commercial fisherman? Is he probably a fisherman?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I mean, I'll hand that one over to Daniel, but I. I imagine he's got to be well versed in the sea, and.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, yeah, well versed in the sea. Knowing the history, actually knowing the whales.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Personally spending time, you know, on the water, you know, observing whales, knowing positions in the canoe, how to make the harpoons, paddles, all that.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

All those things. So.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it. So they got to be invested.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

That'd be invested in it. Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

And have a reasonable claim to why they should be doing it.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yes, for sure.

[Host (Steve)]

Got it. So if someone comes up with, like, a crackpot idea, they're gonna get. We. They're gonna get weeded out.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Get weeded out for sure.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

How big is the commission?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

20.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

About 24.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, no kids. Are they all tribal?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

They're all either heads or descendants of, like, traditional heads of families. And so that's. That's what I wanted to get into a little bit. It's like, traditionally, you're brought up as a whaler, captain, or leader because it's central to the. Like you said, the society of the tribe. And so it's like, it's not, hey, we're gonna go shoot an elk, we're go grab our permit. But, like, it's a lifestyle.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Okay.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Right.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

The training, the mindset, even just who you are as a person. If you're going to be a captain, you're. You're already set apart.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

I understand.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

And you're. You're brought up in a way, like, you're a leader. You're a. You know, take care of your family. You know, you've, like you said, spent time in the ocean. Spent time in the sea. You know, whales, breathing patterns, fluke. Fluke prints. Like, you kind of know.

[Host (Steve)]

I see.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

You know, you're gonna be.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, but they've been prepared for this their whole life.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Is there a clan system with the Makah? Do you guys. Are you guys from different clans?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

So the tribe has five traditional villages.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

And the five traditional villages are kind of what make up the reservation now. So we have Ozette, we have Suez, we have Yatch, Dia, and Beheda. So those are the five villages that kind of make up the tribe now. But as far as clans go, everybody kind of, you know where you come from, you know what family you come from, what village you come from.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Okay.

[Host (Steve)]

And you kind of people might associate. It's like a step down from Macaw would be that you'd associate by village and family.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Village and family, Village and family. You kind of tie to your family. You know where your village. Everybody knows who comes from what village for the most part. And that's just part of how the oral history has continued to transpire, as everybody understands whose family, who comes from who. And that kind of gets into our. Our potlatch system of.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

And all. And in the Whaling commission, the different. There'd be representation from all the villages.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah. And multiple. Multiple families from multiple people from all villages.

[Host (Steve)]

And they come together.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's a heads of family type structures.

[Host (Steve)]

Heads of family.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Heads of family rather than clan. That's how we associate. Each village would have so many heads of family that would be part of that village's governance of their village. And different number of seats per village. And that was up to the village to decide how many.

[Host (Steve)]

I got it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

How many seats they wanted filled as

[Host (Steve)]

heads of family on these wailing decisions and Captain selection and when to push on it and try to do it and when to not. Is it contentious, or do you guys usually hit a consensus?

[Chairman TJ Green]

We don't disagree on anything, Steve.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

No, never.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, it can get contentious, certainly.

[Host (Steve)]

Do you settle it? Do you settle by vote, or do you hash it out until there's a consensus?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, I think there's attempt to reach consensus, but, you know, at the end, there is a voting mechanism.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay, so just any. Any sort of issue would be eventually might be resolved by a vote.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, I got you. What will happen, let's say in two years. So you've got this relationship with the Commerce Department under Howard Lutnick right now. Let's say in two years, it's a new administration. At that point, are you like, oh, my God, now we got to start all the way over again? Or is it. Is there a chance that it would be smooth?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Well, it. There definitely be the concern that we got to reboot the waiver process?

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, that, that would, you know, that would be concerning, but. Or the permitting process. Sorry. You know, we've already been granted the waiver.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, that can't be walked back, but, you know, we need a permit, so. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what an administration change would do. We've been through a lot of them.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. Yeah. Who was president when Stevens was the negotiating all those treaties?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Oh, Buchanan, was it?

[Host (Steve)]

He went through a few administrations. Hey, here's what. Here's what I wanted to ask. Oh, sorry, Lupe. We've been having a lot of conversations. You know, we eat a lot of fish and game, and some of the guys work here. Fish a lot. And we've been having all these conversations about, like, pfas, chemicals and fish health warnings and fish. If you had to rate, like, you know, in our. In our world, it would be that, you know, like tuna, that's a. Questionable fish for heavy metals contamination. Our own state has now advisories about pfas, chemicals and freshwater fish. Here is a. How much are you seeing this stuff in whale and whale fat? Because, I mean, they're like a mega accumulator just for listeners to understand what. I mean, picture that there's a small fish that eats plankton. He's not accumulating a bunch of heavy metals, but let's say there's a fish that eats fish that eats fish. So every fish he eats, he's absorbing all the things that not just that they ate, but that what they ate, ate.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

And you get to be where you have these certain fish that are loaded because they're accumulating they're just eating fish. They ate fish. So is a whale like a bioaccumulator of environmental toxins?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

There, there's not much data on it. I mean what I, what I have found was they, they have done some studies on some whales that whether they were, you know, ship strikes or beach themselves. And I believe they detected, you know, levels in the blubber. They didn't find it. I think there was like maybe 20 whales, but a lot of them were inconclusive and they, they didn't find any in the liver. It sounded like.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Okay.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

And then like the red meat there wasn't as much. But I mean, you know, you could see the tribes that have, have been eating whale for all these years. And you know it is medicine and I mean the, even the government is getting back to like food is medicine, you know.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Turn the triangle upside down. Now red meat's at the top.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

And you know, it normalizes glucose metabolism. You know, whale meat, it's been shown to do that. You can see that in the, in the tribes that are still eating it, you know, on a daily basis. And it's, it's their main fat source, you know.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

And you can see in those where the health related diseases are not as large as you know, say like a coastal tribe or like a lot of the, the tribes, you know, that got hit with like, you know, the commodities, you remember, you know.

[Host (Steve)]

No, no, no.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

So commodities, you know, was the.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh yeah, the food commodity.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Western, like western foods you know, introduced into our diet.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Once we laid down our harpoons, you know, 12 years before anybody else started to, you know, knowing we were going to get back to it, but still, you know, traditionally eating all of our, our foods and which even there's. We had elders that were, you know, they were probably around when we had our last couple hunts in the 20s and they lived to be in their hundreds.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, they were enjoying good long lives.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

On that diet.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

He could speak more on that as well. But you know, the, I think it's like with the, the gray whale on the few of the villages up there because it, they get about. I think they're, they have 16, 000 people that they get whale distributed to and they get about. I think it's 107 pounds of gray whale mean and 26 of them. I think it was, they said it was their main food, like their main fatty food. So.

[Host (Steve)]

Is that right?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah, I mean and so even us reintroducing, so.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, that's wild. There's like people whose main, like that's their main.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

A main meat would be whale meat.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah. And even for us, you know, introducing it back into our diet, which been missing since the 20s, since we've stopped and you can, you can see the, you know, diabetes and whatever else, you know, the health related diseases. They're pretty rampant, you know. And then even with those, you know, those microplastics and everything in the food that I believe it is something that will need to be studied more once, you know, we're, we're, if we're whaling on a regular basis, I'm sure it's something we're going to be able to study.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

To see if it, if it is higher. Because they are eating fish. Eating fish. Eating fish.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. But then you got the question too of like, relative to like, let's say they do have some chemical contamination. It's like relative to what? Because then you got to ask yourself, I don't know, is the other stuff that everybody's eating so great? Yeah, there's, you know, there's a lot of focus on wild fish. You know, I'm like, I don't know, are they checking everything? Like have you gone to the grocery store and checked all that stuff? Like is wild fish really worse than all the junk that's in the grocery store?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

It's definitely better than farm fish.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. It's like it winds up being like this totally relative thing. But there's all this focus on contaminations and fish. I'm like, I'd have to see the data on all the junk that normal people eat.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Well now it's getting into lab grown. Lab grown meat.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. But I don't think no one's making lab grown whale meat.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Don't quote me. I don't think our tests we did on the mercury for gray whales are. I don't think it was much that'd be interesting.

[Host (Steve)]

It could be kind of low. Yeah. Because one thing they're not doing is they're not eating, they're not eating big fish.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

Like tuna. Big tuna eats small tuna. I mean they're, they're eating by like tuna are eating bioaccumulators and a lot of times a tuna's eating a fish that's eating a fish that eats fish. So it's just different. But you could picture with a whale eating a lot of short lived plankton feeders, then maybe they don't get loaded up.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah. And if you eat like say you eat whale meat and blubber and then cut out all the Processed stuff. Is the whale meat with chemicals and toxins better than a diet of processed food with chemicals with chemicals and toxins?

[Host (Steve)]

I mean, do you got. Let me ask a question. This is just on. On the behalf of non. Non. Natives. You know, a thing we always argue about, man, is whether it's okay to call you guys Indians or not. Give me your take on this. Like. Like just for listeners sake, like a dude. Like, here's a dude like me, a dude like me. And I say, you guys are Indians, like, just for people out there who want to do the right thing, but they get confused. What does that mean to you, Steve?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Say Quidditch.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

See?

[Host (Steve)]

So is it offensive or not offensive?

[Chairman TJ Green]

We're not too uptight about that.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Most. Most of our people, you know, it's for us. We say, yeah, call us Indians. Our treaty, it's the Indians of Cape Flattery in there, right?

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, but you might not like that treaty. I'm not asking. I'm not asking to be cute. I'm like, it's like an honest thing. There's not a month goes by. I'm not kidding you. There's not a month goes by that I don't have a conversation with someone about the appropriateness.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Sure.

[Host (Steve)]

Of Native American, First Nations, Native Alaskan, you know, I mean, like.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Like

[Host (Steve)]

the appropriateness of it. And maybe it's offensive that I'm even asking, but I'm going to ask anyway, because there's people. There's like, people that want to do that. There's people that want to be respectful, but there's a lot of mixed signals and feelings. I remember asking earlier, I said, chupik Eskimo. I asked the Chupik Eskimo. I said, man, you know, a lot of people, like, in our culture, a lot of people say that they shouldn't say that. And he goes, if I'm not an Eskimo, I don't know what I am. Because he goes, I'm a Chupac Eskimo. I don't know what they told you back home, but that's what I am.

[Chairman TJ Green]

No. And that, you know, that's how we are. Any English word is the wrong word. Yeah. So I. That's. That's my take on it. It's like, you know, you. You tried to say Quidditch. That's what we call ourselves.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, but any English word is the wrong word. But I don't stress about it.

[Host (Steve)]

But there's something you learn to live with and learn not to live with.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

I think it's more.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's more in the. You know, to me, it's. It's more. How are you saying it? Right.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, it's. How are you saying it? How are you using it? How are you saying it?

[Host (Steve)]

That's what I would imagine. That's how I kind of have imagined it is. In that way. But maybe. Am I right to say that the best thing. I can't say your word, but if I just said he's Macaw, that's fine. Yeah. You're not like. Well, I'm not. That's what someone else called me.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

That's respect. That shows respect. If I say that, it doesn't show a lack of respect.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Correct. It doesn't show a lack of respect.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. If. And if I say Native American, that's cool.

[Chairman TJ Green]

That's cool, too.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

All right.

[Chairman TJ Green]

All right. Yeah.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

You know, like a good example, the Washington Redskins. Yeah. It wasn't the. Wasn't the family of the chief of the head that they used on their helmet for that Redskins that got rid of it. It was those other groups.

[Host (Steve)]

What do you mean?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Like, it wasn't. So that. That picture was actually from a chief in that area.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, they didn't have a problem with it.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

They didn't? No.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Huh. There's probably 100 stories like that.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Our high school mascot is the Red Devils.

[Host (Steve)]

Your high school mascot?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

Still now.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Still now. Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

Do you find that that's a problem?

[Chairman TJ Green]

No, no.

[Host (Steve)]

That's interesting.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

But there's got to be a lot of it. A lot of is, like you said, who. Where it's coming from.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Right.

[Host (Steve)]

You know who's saying it. Where it's coming from.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah. I would like to see a mascot that the whalers do with our own name.

[Host (Steve)]

With your own name?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Chairman TJ Green]

You know, in our language, there's a. There's a tribe near us that. That did that. And. But finding one that's easy to say in. In Quidditch language is. Is tough. You know that. So there's a school mascot, Chitwins. You know, it's a tribal.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Okay.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Tribal community. And, you know, that just means a bear.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Got it.

[Chairman TJ Green]

It's, like, easy to say. Anybody can say it. And. And it's a great mascot.

[Host (Steve)]

Can any of you guys give me a sense of what your language sounds like? Just. I mean, just say something. Whatever.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

I don't know anything. That.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Just that guy.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Okay, here.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Talk about whaling. The whales.

[Host (Steve)]

Talking about the whales. Yeah, I got it.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of early Is my name.

[Host (Steve)]

That's a good sounding language, dude.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

So.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, that's a good sign of language, man. I like that.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah, very cool. And then we share our language families in Canada. So is where we come from whaling societies all along the Canadian west coast, Vancouver Island. So that's where we come from.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Okay.

[Host (Steve)]

So if I. If like you go up, you got

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

like

[Host (Steve)]

the Haida, Tsimshian. Would those have been. Would there have been cultural similarities or just very different?

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

They're pretty different, yeah.

[Spin Quest Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

So we're just, just south of Haida. We had it had to say, I guess our northern, northern end, Prince Rupert, we had ties in with them.

[Host (Steve)]

Okay.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

But Haida, Guaya kind of got different.

[Host (Steve)]

That's a different way, different people.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

If you guys get this thing signed, this paper signed, would you ever. Would you consider photocopying me of. Photocopy that. Send me that. The permit. The permit, yeah, with like all like a permit. I just want to frame it and hang it in the studio. Yeah, like a photocopy of your signed permit.

[Chairman TJ Green]

I'm sure you.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, we're like your whale tag. A photocopy of your whale tag.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, we could do that.

[Host (Steve)]

Just some kind of. I'd like to have. I just like to see a document.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Make you a foia.

[Host (Steve)]

I'd like to see a d. No, I want just. I want a photocopy from you guys. I don't want it. I don't want to have to go through legal. Yeah, just a document that sort of like is like what. What a whale permit looks like. All right, I'd like to see a whale permit. Does they probably don't have like the little date things you notch out and stuff on them. No, no, I'd like to see one. Man, I wish you guys. I don't know, man.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Not. I don't know.

[Host (Steve)]

I hope you guys permit comes in.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Thank you.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, I hope your permit comes in. It's just like to me, it feels, to me, it feels like there's not a situation where. There's not a situation one where sort of the general commercial fishing fleet is going to re. Engage in whaling and there's going to be like a resource battle about it. You know what I mean? You guys got a claim to it. It's not a thing that's going to get overblown. There's a limited number of. There's a limited number of groups that have it be that it's part of their tradition. It's such a small harvest. It just seems like it's it's doing. It seems like it's doing enormous good. It's doing enormous good for your community, and it's not doing any harm to other. It's not doing any harm to other communities. You know what I'm saying?

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, no, we. We agree.

[Host (Steve)]

It's just like. It's like. It's kind of like a. It's. It's not. You know, you say like a win, win. It's like a win nothing. Like, it doesn't mean. Like, it doesn't impact my life. Right. It's not. I just feel like it's not my business. I feel it's like, if it does you guys good and you want to do it, it's not going to tank the gray whale population if you guys are getting a whale every year.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

It's like, it just doesn't feel like my business. You know what I mean?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

I think it's important to mention also that it's. It's ceremonial and subsistence. It's not for the tribe's pleasure. It's not for anything other than. It's who we are as a people. Yeah. And getting back to that. And it's not about going out to do it just because we can.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

It's.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

It's central to the tribe.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

So that's the importance. So when it comes to respect, as far as, you know, names and what to call everybody, like, as far as respect goes, like, I would like to see people understand and get to know who the tribes are. Like, you want to know Makah? Go learn about Makah.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

You know, Joshua Reed, Dr. Josh Reed, has a really great book called the Sea Is My Country.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, really?

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Did extensive research, not only at Makah, but across other tribes, too, to get their perspective of Makah.

[Host (Steve)]

Oh, really?

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

And it's.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

It's incredible.

[Host (Steve)]

My country.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah. And so.

[Host (Steve)]

I haven't even heard of that one, man.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah, it's incredible. And so we'll. We'll get you a copy, but it's. It's good. So if. I mean.

[Daniel Green, Vice President of the Whaling Commission]

And that.

[Host (Steve)]

That book. That book resonates with your understanding of stuff.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yes. Yes.

[Host (Steve)]

Yeah, it's. You know what I'm saying? Because sometimes you'll read books that come from observers.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah.

[Host (Steve)]

But then the people being observed are like that. Like, that's not how we understand it to be.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

Yeah, no. Josh is a great partner. He really came in on behalf of the tribe and really put together a really accurate. You know, was able to tell the story the way it happened.

[Host (Steve)]

You know, what's pretty funny is there's this French dude named Jacques Cartier, and he goes over to the. He lands over on the Canadian coast, north of Maine, goes up the St. Lawrence river in the late 1500s, and he meets these people called the Stataconans. They're like a St. Lawrence. Iroquois. Iroquois. And he's like. He's got this passage in his journal where he's like, here's what's up with their religion. You read it, you're like, man, I just don't think they would describe their religion that way.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

That's funny.

[Host (Steve)]

He's like, they think this, this, and

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

this, and that's it.

[Host (Steve)]

You know, it'd be like if someone. It'd be like, it's as bad as if someone said, hey, I went. You know, I went to America. There's Christians. They think that when God gets mad, he floods their planet. That's about. You know, that's about the main bit.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

That's it.

[Host (Steve)]

He's like, so there's that explained.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, there's a. There's a story in that book that Josh did that really puts it in perspective what the ocean meant to us and means to us today. But Captain Mears, when he was doing his exploring and trading, came into our area and met with our head chief, I guess, and to get safe passage through that area, because he was meeting with other tribes coming down Vancouver island from the north to the south, and they, like, you're going to be entering Makah waters, and, you know, they're. You want to make sure you get their permission. So he had a meeting and was trying to get. Get permission and, you know, trading some things to, you know, there's like, an exchange. Exchange of goods there to get that safe passage. Well, he tried to lowball us, right? He didn't want to pay what he paid other tribes for safe passage, and we knew it, and so we didn't let him pass. And he was looking for furs. That was part of his. He's trying to gather up furs in the Northwest. And so

[Spin Quest Advertiser]

our

[Chairman TJ Green]

people stayed out on, you know, in their canoes and basically kept his ship from transiting the Strait of Juan de Fuca, entering the Strait of Juan de Fuca for several weeks. And then. And while that was being done, we sent another contingency to go up the Strait of Juan de Fuca and Puget Sound and buy up all the furs. And then we let them pass. And the price went up when he had to come back and deal with us, Right?

[Host (Steve)]

So there's another. I don't know why Cartier is on my mind, but there's nothing like that with this Cartier dude. He gets to the mouth of St. Lawrence and he builds this giant cross, and they write like, God save the King or something on there. They pray there. And the local. The local Indians come up and they're like, what's going on with the cross?

[Spin Quest Advertiser]

You know?

[Host (Steve)]

And he explains to him, like, everything you see, everything you see is our land. And he punts on it, and he tells them, no, this is just showing people where to cut in. It's a navigational marker. And that's how he explains it. His journal. He's like, no, no, you got me all wrong. Yeah, it just shows you where to turn left. Because he didn't want to get into it with him. Well, man, I appreciate you guys coming on. It means a lot you'd come out and talk about all this.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Yeah, we're happy to get that education out there. We have a part of our culture, and part of who we are is we're not able to realize that right now. We want to be whole.

[Host (Steve)]

Understood.

[Chairman TJ Green]

We want to carry on what we ask for in our treaty. Yeah, yeah. And it's. And it's important. It changes whaling, changes lives in our community for the better. It makes our community better.

[Host (Steve)]

I can tell it's true. I can tell it's true. Well, the guys thank you all for doing this. Appreciate it. And thank you for the gift.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Oh, yeah, you bet.

[Host (Steve)]

These guys brought me some sockeye salmon, jarred up beautiful macaw gold, Macau gold.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

You don't have to share.

[Host (Steve)]

You know, that's. I'm glad you brought that up, because I might have felt conflicted later. I might have wanted to slip Phil and Nate jar here, man.

[Chris Martinez, Chief of Staff for the Makah Tribal Council]

But I don't know. Thanks a lot.

[Host (Steve)]

Not doing it. All right, thanks, guys.

[Lupe Castaneda, Council Member and First Foods Expert]

Thank you.

[Chairman TJ Green]

Thank you.

[Host (Steve)]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.