Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Megyn Kelly Show – "Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025"

Release Date: March 13, 2025

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Introduction to the Case

In Episode 1025 of The Megyn Kelly Show, titled "Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance," host Megyn Kelly delves deep into the chilling case of Baby Lisa, who vanished from her crib in October 2011. As the family approaches the 14th anniversary of her disappearance, the mystery surrounding her whereabouts intensifies, giving rise to numerous theories and unsettling details.

The Family's Unyielding Search

Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin, Lisa's parents, have been tirelessly searching for their missing daughter for over a decade. Their hope remains undiminished, despite limited progress in the investigation.

Deborah Bradley [04:09]: "Yeah, there's a lot of that and I mean it's, it's pretty, it's pretty frustrating and you have a lot of hate and anger on aspects like that, but there's nothing you can do about it and that's not going to help get Lisa home any faster."

The emotional toll on the family is palpable. Annual vigils, relentless personal investigations, and a $100,000 reward offer by philanthropist Christy Haas Schiller underscore their desperate bid to locate Lisa.

Investigations and Alternate Theories

Despite initial suspicion falling on John Tanko, a 42-year-old with a criminal history, the case remains unsolved with no arrests made. In 2011, authorities indicated they had moved beyond Tanko, leaving the family in a prolonged state of uncertainty.

Deborah Bradley has taken matters into her own hands, conducting extensive personal research which led her back to her local area, raising suspicions about potential connections to nearby criminal elements.

Deborah Bradley [05:16]: "I've done my own thing because there isn't anybody to help. I have sat in courtrooms. I have done my own surveillances... I started to hear things. I mean, people talk."

New Leads from Police Documents

Megyn Kelly and co-authors Missy Rasmussen and Jackie Heller obtained supplemental police interview reports involving Chad Huber, a car theft suspect who implicated new individuals in Lisa's disappearance:

• Matt Shaver: Owner of a house where Megan Wright, associated with drug activities, was staying on the night Lisa vanished.
• Boris Dubinski: A convicted criminal alleged to have paid $15,000 to Dane Greathouse to move Lisa's body.
• Cody Allnut: An 18-year-old with schizophrenia who was allegedly involved in the case.

Missy Rasmussen [17:08]: "Interesting. Very, very interesting."

Despite these revelations, each individual denied involvement:

Dane Greathouse [18:34]: "I'm glad you guys came over and talked. Honestly, I just hope this can bring light to the case and in time, things get solved."

Police Involvement and Public Perception

The family expresses frustration over the Kansas City Police Department's apparent lack of ongoing communication. While reporter Jim Spellman believes authorities conducted thorough investigations, the family contends that the police have neglected the case over the years.

Deborah Bradley [22:23]: "They think that she's dead somewhere and mom did it and they're going to, they're not even trying to prove that. I mean, they're just done, they're done with it."

This disconnect has fostered feelings of abandonment and distrust towards law enforcement, exacerbating the family's distress.

Psychological Impact on the Family

The prolonged uncertainty has significantly affected Deborah and Jeremy's relationship, leading to their separation in 2022. Their sons remain a focal point, with both parents striving to provide a semblance of normalcy amidst the chaos.

Jeremy Irwin [27:12]: "I think that God put us together because he knew we would be able to survive long enough to be there for each other in positive ways."

Expert Insights and Opinions

Crime experts Phil Houston and Bill Stanton weigh in on the case, addressing the plausibility of the theories proposed by Rasmussen and Heller. They express skepticism toward the credibility of certain allegations but empathize with the family's plight.

Phil Houston [32:26]: "I believe that she has, but it's also her undoing, I believe... if I've committed a crime as heinous as this, I find it hard to believe I'd be running around telling people that we, you know, we've done this and so forth."

Conclusion and Future Steps

As the investigation remains stagnant, the family continues to hold onto hope, leveraging DNA databases like Ancestry.com and 23andMe to potentially reconnect with Lisa. Megan Kelly urges listeners to aid in the search by sharing Lisa's current photo and providing any tips through dedicated channels.

Deborah Bradley [28:48]: "I've tried to convince myself that she's no longer here and to move on, but I can't. I'm going with my gut and my heart. She's out there somewhere. She's a beautiful little girl, and we're gonna find her."

Looking Ahead

The episode concludes with a teaser for the final installment, promising revelations about John Tanko and his potential connection to the case.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Megyn Kelly [00:25]: "We're tackling the disappearance of baby Lisa. She vanished from her crib in the middle of the night in October of 2011."

• Deborah Bradley [04:09]: "There's a lot of hate and anger on aspects like that, but there's nothing you can do about it and that's not going to help get Lisa home any faster."

• Missy Rasmussen [17:08]: "Very, very interesting."

• Phil Houston [34:04]: "If I've committed a crime as heinous as this, I find it hard to believe I'd be running around telling people that we've done this and so forth."

• Deborah Bradley [28:48]: "I'm going with my gut and my heart. She's out there somewhere."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Megyn Kelly Show masterfully intertwines investigative journalism with emotional storytelling, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of Baby Lisa's disappearance and the intricate web of theories surrounding it. By presenting firsthand accounts, expert opinions, and newly uncovered police documents, Megyn Kelly ensures that the quest for truth continues, keeping the conversation alive in hopes of finally resolving this heart-wrenching case.

Transcript

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Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] debt in MLS 696891 Megan I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show and episode four of our special series Megyn Kelly Investigates. We're tackling the disappearance of baby Lisa. She vanished from her crib in the middle of the night in October of 2011. Today she'd be a teenager. But where is she and who took her? Someone knows? A case like this generates a ton of interest and theories. Some as we will explore in this episode, very dark and disturbing. There is a real and growing threat to your home and your equity. And it's called title fraud. Here's how it works. Criminals can forge a single document, file it with the recorder and just like that, your home's title is stolen. They take out loans against your property, draining your equity. And you would not even know it had happened until it was too late. Here's the really scary part. Credit monitoring will not protect you from any of this. But I want to tell you about Home Title Lock. To protect your home and equity, their exclusive triple lock protection gives you 24. 7 Monitoring of your home's title, urgent alerts if there are any changes, and a team of experts to help restore your title if fraud happens at no extra cost. The bottom line, your home's your biggest investment. Don't leave it vulnerable. Home Title Lock is offering an exclusive 25% off their protection plans. You just go to hometitlelock.com and use the promo code MEGAN25 to get 25% off your subscription and a free title history report to make sure you're not already a victim. Protect your home inequity today. That's hometitlelock.com promo code MEGAN25. The Kansas City police have stiff armed the press, saying next to nothing about this case. Publicly, neither Kansas City PD nor the FBI would talk to us. And philanthropist Christy Haas Schiller's offer of a $100,000 reward for any information that could lead to the return of Lisa remains unclaimed. If you could write that $100,000 check, it'd probably be the most delightful money you ever spent in your life.

[Deborah Bradley]

Absolutely. Still have hope.

[Megan Kelly]

While 42 year old John Tanko, known as Jersey, may seem to have been the best suspect given his criminal history and that mysterious call from the Irwins stolen phone to the phone of Tanko's ex girlfriend Megan Wright on the night baby Lisa went missing, no arrests were ever made. In 2011, police said they had moved on from Tanko and there appears to have been little to no movement on this case in the nearly 13 years since it started. Jeremy and Deborah have been left in limbo. There were yearly vigils, Please God, keep.

[Jeremy Irwin]

Her safe until she is home with us.

[Megan Kelly]

And occasional interviews, including one with me that aired in January 2014. When I interviewed you a couple years ago, Deborah, you said even back then you were looking in the crowd whenever you pass a child who would be Lisa's age.

[Jeremy Irwin]

Yeah, we actually, I did it all day today when we were walking around before we came here to see you and, and I just said to Jeremy, I'm really tired of looking at everybody else's kid. Open, it's mine.

[Megan Kelly]

This has to be its own form of torture.

[Deborah Bradley]

Jeremy Irwin I think about her every day. It doesn't go away and the pain is still there and just feel like you're not complete.

[Megan Kelly]

Do you ever feel bitter, Jeremy? You know, I would feel, I think I'd feel bitter, you know, that, that my child was taken, that I didn't get this time, that if she's still out there, I've missed so much.

[Deborah Bradley]

Yeah, there's a lot of that and I mean it's, it's pretty, it's pretty frustrating and you have a lot of hate and anger on aspects like that, but there's nothing you can do about it and that's not going to help get Lisa home any faster. So I mean it's frustrating that everybody's still out living their life and going to the grocery store and doing whatever they want to do and meanwhile we're just left to sit in the ashes.

[Megan Kelly]

Deborah Bradley.

[Jeremy Irwin]

You know, it's, it's really hard as she gets older and still not having her home and thinking about all the things I continue to miss out on and it's like all of us have been robbed of that. That is really hard to accept.

[Deborah Bradley]

I just started reading stuff and just writing down a name here and a name here and then I started doing my own searches.

[Megan Kelly]

Deborah's aunt Cindy Lorette has been relentless, constantly Searching for clues, trying to piece together what may have happened.

[Deborah Bradley]

I've done my own thing because there isn't anybody to help. I have sat in courtrooms. I have done my own surveillances. I visited people in jail that I didn't know. I don't really want to tell you everything I did, but I did a lot of stuff. But everything that I was reading throughout the Internet, it just kept leading me back to the area that I was living at. So I got a job at this little convenience store. And I didn't tell anybody who I was. I just listened. I wanted to know things. I wanted to, and I did. I started to hear things. I mean, people talk.

[Megan Kelly]

Kansas City moms Missy Rasmussen and Jackie Heller, who are writing a book about this case, have spent more than a decade looking for leads. Where did that take you? What did you find?

[Missy Rasmussen]

It led us down some bad places, some bad neighborhoods, talking to some bad people.

[Megan Kelly]

Was your theory starting to develop in a different direction from where the mainstream narrative was going, Missy?

[Jackie Heller]

Yeah, definitely. The mainstream narrative here is either Jersey or the mom. It is overwhelming how many people think that Deborah had something to do with it.

[Missy Rasmussen]

Nobody in this town is looking for her because they think her mother killed her and she got away with it.

[Megan Kelly]

Much of what they've heard is secondhand and goes to some very dark places, to drug dens, to baby brokers, to terrible conclusions. My understanding is that you. You guys have spoken to at least five people about this theory, that some criminal element somehow connected to the family was responsible for this and that at least three of them mentioned the sale. The sale of a baby?

[Jackie Heller]

Yeah.

[Megan Kelly]

Correct.

[Missy Rasmussen]

Right.

[Megan Kelly]

In 2021, Deborah said much the same to a local reporter. What are you sure of, Deborah?

[Jeremy Irwin]

If the tips are right and the information we were given is right, she was sold.

[Megan Kelly]

You believe she was sold?

[Jeremy Irwin]

Absolutely.

[Megan Kelly]

To add to that theory, one month after Lisa went missing, Debra and Jeremy found a charge on a debit card. $69.04 paid to a British company that called itself a name changing service. This is one of the theories that, of course, puzzles me. How? How would the person wanting to steal baby Lisa think that they were going to get away with stealing baby Lisa on this night, where the mother is at home?

[Jackie Heller]

There is nothing about walking into someone's house and taking their baby that makes any sense to me. But I don't know that the person doing that was a logical, rational, you know, person the way that you and I are.

[Megan Kelly]

So if it has to do with drugs, in other words, they might have been out of their minds?

[Jackie Heller]

Sure, yeah, I, I would, I would guess for sure.

[Megan Kelly]

If we think that there might have been a criminal, drug element involved in this, and you guys have been out there investigating this for all this time, you know, pretty publicly. Is there any fear on your part about your safety?

[Jackie Heller]

Absolutely, yes.

[Missy Rasmussen]

We've had people tell us, you know, we'll tell them, you know, there's a hundred thousand dollar reward and they say, well, what good is the reward if I'm not alive to spend it?

[Megan Kelly]

Do you ever, like, do your own investigation, start talking to people about what they know, what they saw? Jeremy Irwin?

[Deborah Bradley]

Yeah, I mean, we, we did for a long, long time. And I mean, most of the stuff that we've gotten is stories that people have heard from other people. So it's a lot of, it's third person stories. And I think there's real merit in a group of individuals that operate in that area that get rid of kids and illegally adopt or what, however you want to phrase it, but take in children that they're not supposed to have and redistribute them. That's, that's definitely going on up here. And at least at the time when I was talking with the investigators about it, they laughed in my face about it. So.

[Megan Kelly]

Other storylines that have circulated amongst the locals involve Deborah interacting with the drug underworld, possible urban myths with no proof, including one that baby Lisa was handed off to pay a drug debt. Was there anything that you, looking back, may have done to bring any of that cast of characters into your life?

[Deborah Bradley]

You know, certainly, certainly not us, but we had people nearby that were into that lifestyle.

[Megan Kelly]

And you and Deborah never went there, scored drugs, called for anything from anybody connected to that place?

[Deborah Bradley]

Oh, no, no, never. 100%.

[Megan Kelly]

Did they ever accuse you or Jeremy of being on drugs or having a connection to this house, Deborah Bradley?

[Jeremy Irwin]

No, because we offered samples of our hair so they can test hair and find out anything and everything you've done.

[Megan Kelly]

Some drugs, including methamphetamine, can be detected this way.

[Jeremy Irwin]

And so they were able to tell that I was telling the truth about that, that as far as that if there was a connection and that was it, that's null and void. That's just not even an option.

[Megan Kelly]

So I ask you for the record, have you been on drugs? Were you on drugs around the time Lisa went missing?

[Jeremy Irwin]

Absolutely not.

[Megan Kelly]

And how about Jeremy?

[Jeremy Irwin]

Absolutely not.

[Megan Kelly]

It just wasn't your thing. You were not somebody who partook?

[Jeremy Irwin]

No, I watched in high school, watched friends suffer from addiction and I didn't want to Be that way. I just seen so much suffering aside from the fact that it's just not appealing to me. And as a parent, that'd be the last thing on my mind.

[Megan Kelly]

You don't do crystal meth and you didn't do crystal meth at the time she disappeared.

[Jeremy Irwin]

Oh, God, no, no, no.

[Megan Kelly]

Okay. Yeah. Because I'm sure you've heard that some people theorize you or Jeremy had a connection to this drug den and brought this cast of nefarious characters into your life and one of them took her.

[Jeremy Irwin]

But those people should ask the cops about the DNA analysis on our hair, the drug test analysis on her hair. It's not there for a reason because it doesn't exist. So at least I have proof of that.

[Megan Kelly]

Reporter Jim Spellman covered the case for weeks after the story broke.

I have seen not one bit of information to indicate that Deborah Bradley, Jeremy Irwin, or anybody in their family was involved in some sort of drug thing. And I'll tell you, Megan, I'm a drug addict in recovery. I've been clean for 21 years now, and I'm pretty good at figuring out drug addicts. The idea that Deborah Bradley or Jeremy Irwin were some sort of drug addicts in deep to dealers or something like that is ridiculous. I put, you know, as close to certainty that that is not the case as, as. As I can come. Not, you know, not, not blood testing people.

And now you are going to hear the absolute worst, darkest versions. Again, these are most likely urban myths. We just don't know about what may have happened to Lisa. And we do need to warn you, they come with awful, grisly details. Author Jackie Heller.

[Missy Rasmussen]

And this is what really breaks my heart about this whole thing is the one consistent narrative that we have found in this story is that Lisa is no longer with us.

[Megan Kelly]

What you're saying is you've talked to people who think they know what happened and who say the baby was killed?

[Missy Rasmussen]

Yes. We had someone tell us that Lisa is in the bottom of Smithville Lake and they put her body in a duffel bag and made sure that the blocks weighed more than she did, so there was no chance of her body coming up. Those are the kind of things that we've heard about this.

[Megan Kelly]

Cindy Lorette, Deborah's aunt, heard something even darker.

[Deborah Bradley]

Somebody had Lisa and they got scared because the media, it became such a big deal. That person got scared and he chopped Lisa up. He took her to this house, and the per. One of the people that was in the house told me this story that she was brought to the house and they were at the edge, the end of the bed, and she was crying and they said to get the fucking baby out of the house. I still don't know what to believe.

[Megan Kelly]

We managed to get our hands on police documents with equally dark testimonials. These are supplemental interview reports that police do not make public. They reflect interviews with two different men who claim to know something about the Baby Lisa case. We have confirmed the case file numbers on these reports and we've spoken with both men, Chad Huber and the second man interviewed who asked us not to use his name. They confirmed their conversations with Kansas City Police Officer Michael Wells, the very same name that appears in these documents. It appears that Officer Wells was investigating a car theft ring, among other things. We discussed these police interviews with co authors Missy Rasnussen and Jackie Heller. These are follow up interviews with people who have been charged with unrelated, you know, petty crimes, theft crimes, and so on, just a few months after Baby Lisa disappeared. And this is a police interview with someone named Chad Huber. Do you guys know that name? Have you heard of Chad Huber?

[Missy Rasmussen]

No.

[Megan Kelly]

Okay, so back in 2012, Chad Huber apparently had thoughts on Baby Lisa and named three. Three new people with a possible connection to this case. Three new names we have not discussed in this series. Matt Shaver, Boris Dubinski, and Cody Allnut. Huber also mentions one that you'll be familiar with. Dane Greathouse. This is complicated and a lot to follow. Bear with me. According to the interviews, Chad Huber, car thief suspect, tells cops that Cody Allnut, an 18 year old who according to his father was hanging out with a bad crowd, wanted to talk to Chad about Baby Lisa. Chad Huber tells police, presumably based on that conversation with Cody Allnut, that Baby Lisa is dead. And while the documents do not reveal anything about how Chad Huber says several people are involved. Dane Greathouse, the same guy who allegedly had the phone called by the Irwin's stolen cell phone the night Lisa went missing, was paid to move Lisa's deceased body, says Huber, from one grave site to another. Who, who paid him? According to Huber, it was convicted criminal Boris Dubinsky. Huber tells police, as reflected in these documents, Dubinsky PA paid $15,000 for the transfer. Why would he do that? And where would this guy possibly get 15 grand? What's more, according to a 2012 police interview, Hubert tells cops that Matt Shaver, the owner of that house in which Megan Wright was doing drugs on the night Lisa went missing, had pictures. Pictures the cops might want to see first. Can I just ask you for your reaction to that excerpt?

[Missy Rasmussen]

Interesting. Very, very interesting.

[Megan Kelly]

What. What is interesting about it to you?

[Missy Rasmussen]

The names, the Shaffer name, and Kody are names that we've heard.

[Jackie Heller]

What is interesting to me is that it parallels an experience that we had. We spoke with someone who Kody had approached her. Her story, her words. Cody had approached her, seeming seemingly really needing to get this off his chest.

[Megan Kelly]

And this name, Dane Greathouse, of course, is very relevant.

[Missy Rasmussen]

That's who we think that call was intended for. I think it was a signal that.

[Megan Kelly]

The baby had been taken.

[Missy Rasmussen]

Right.

[Megan Kelly]

And so if he really did move the body and was paid $15,000 to move the body from the original burial site, I mean, there's a lot. There's a lot of buzz around Dane Greathouse and a few different lines into him. Again, we don't know if they're true. This is just as reflected in the police report.

[Jackie Heller]

I had someone send me a text message once, and it said, this is the person you need to talk to. This person has all your answers. Then it was a photo of Dane Great house.

[Missy Rasmussen]

We've tried to talk to him. He's a trip, big time trip. He wanted, like, thousands of dollars for us to talk to him.

[Megan Kelly]

Oh, great.

[Missy Rasmussen]

I was like, yeah, we're not entertaining this.

[Megan Kelly]

Dane Greathouse did speak with us, telling us he was questioned by police. He told us he knew who Boris Dubinsky was, but did not actually know the man. He also said he never moved anything, nor was he paid anything. We found him living at home with his mother, where he was participating in drug court, an alternative to jail that offers treatment and education. Dane followed up with a text that read in part, I'm glad you guys came over and talked. Honestly, I just hope this can bring light to the case and in time, things get solved. Boris Dubinsky also told us he had nothing to do with baby Lisa's disappearance. He said he was once in the same jail with Chad Huber, that he knows what Huber said about him, but that none of it is true. Matt Shaver told us there were indeed photos of the riverbank stored on his PlayStation memory card. He said police confiscated that card and when they did, they told him the photos had originated on Cody Allnut's phone. He says he has no idea if they were pictures of a gravesite, as these pictures show. There was a search done along the banks of the Missouri River. No body was found. What Cody Allnut saw or did not see, we may never know. We were not able to speak with him. We did speak with his father, Larry, who told us Cody has schizophrenia. Larry Allnutt is his son's limited guardian and conservator. He told us the FBI interviewed Cody once around the time Lisa disappeared and never returned. As for Megan Wright, Megan, have you heard the name Cody? Cody Allnut or Boris Dubinsky? Have you heard those names?

[Jeremy Irwin]

Those don't sound familiar to me.

[Megan Kelly]

But she does remember Matt Shaver, who gave her a place to stay all those years ago.

[Jeremy Irwin]

Matt was one of the people. Him and his wife owned the house I was referring to.

[Megan Kelly]

And what was he like?

[Jeremy Irwin]

He was a carpet layer, best I remember. So he was always very active, hardworking kind of guy trying to support his family. When I moved in there, they were trying not to lose their house. So I was trying to help them get things cleaned up, kind of get everything, move people out, make it a more family appropriate environment for him and his wife and their kids.

[Megan Kelly]

That's why I moved in there. And the perk of it was hiding from Jersey.

[Jeremy Irwin]

He was not familiar to that house at that time.

[Megan Kelly]

Did the Kansas City Police investigate any of these claims or come to a conclusion about this cast of characters? We don't know because they won't say. When we called and asked, they again told us they will not comment on a so called open investigation. And we are not the only ones being ignored by the Kansas City pd. According to Jeremy, they have received not a single update of their missing daughter in the last 10 years. I find it appalling that they haven't contacted you in years. You don't even get an annual phone call from a police officer saying, we're still looking into it. We haven't forgotten about you.

[Deborah Bradley]

Oh, no, no. I, I couldn't even tell you the last time we were contacted by law enforcement of any. It was maybe year three, maybe.

[Megan Kelly]

Oh, wow. It's been a long time that they've moved on for sure.

[Deborah Bradley]

I think, I think they realized how big it was and I think they screwed it up really badly and I think they just want to be done with it.

[Megan Kelly]

Author Jackie Heller they dropped the ball.

[Missy Rasmussen]

They had tunnel vision from the beginning and they, they've dropped the ball. They have let Lisa down once again.

[Megan Kelly]

Deborah's aunt Cindy Lorette.

[Deborah Bradley]

I know people who have called the tips hotline that reached out to me and to get no help. About three months ago, a guy thought he saw Lisa in Las Vegas. He ended up getting the phone number to the police department. He called there and they said, okay, thanks and just hung up. They did not ask him any questions. He gave him, them the information. They don't care. They're not looking for Lisa. They don't give a shit. They think that she's dead somewhere and mom did it and they're going to, they're not even trying to prove that. I mean, they're just done, they're done with it.

[Megan Kelly]

Author Missy Rasmussen.

[Jackie Heller]

If it were me and someone told me that someone told them, they saw, they, they know that a baby was murdered, I would even three, you know.

[Megan Kelly]

Three degrees removed, triple hearsay.

[Jackie Heller]

Yeah, I would still want to get that off my chest. So I get it. But it is really difficult to get any closer than say, 2 degrees.

[Megan Kelly]

You know, it should be easier for police. Police have all sorts of investigatory abilities and powers that we don't have to figure out who was where, when, what the phone records of that person show and what their, their actions were.

[Missy Rasmussen]

It just lacks the, the person, the right person to come in and be like, we're finally going to do what needs to be done for Lisa.

[Megan Kelly]

Reporter Jim Spellman, who covered the case extensively, has a different view.

Every indication that I got is that the Kansas City police and the FBI were conducting a very vigorous and thorough investigation. Every time that I would uncover some new element or another reporter would uncover some new thing, the police had already been there generally a couple of weeks before, and we saw lots of evidence that they were thoroughly tracking down people's alibis, that they were, you know, searching electronically, that they were searching surveillance cameras. That would have been an asset for the family. And the family ended up treating them like they were the enemy.

So to those who think, oh, the Kansas City police botched this, you know, they just, they failed to investigate properly, we would have found her if we had a more robust police department on the case. You don't agree with that?

I don't agree with that. I think that they did a very thorough investigation. All of the key people that surfaced in the media, that surfaced through my reporting had been thoroughly investigated.

John Jersey Tanko was questioned by the police at the time. He denies any involvement and the case remains open. Did the FBI ever tell you, Megan, that you were cleared? I realize you only had that one six hour meeting. Did they ever. Or the Kansas City pd, Megan Wright.

[Jeremy Irwin]

They told me they'd be in touch if they needed anything else from me. And I haven't heard anything in 12 years.

[Megan Kelly]

Never seen anything where they made a.

[Jeremy Irwin]

Statement publicly bringing up my name, saying.

[Megan Kelly]

Oh, she was cooperative.

[Jeremy Irwin]

She came in for an interview and we have Ruled her out as a suspect. You know, that'd be great to hear.

[Megan Kelly]

But it's never happened. As for Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, it's been dark narratives. 12 years of missing their baby girl and a struggle to stay together.

[Jeremy Irwin]

It's really hard to be there for someone else that you love when you're falling apart yourself. And we tried to make it work for a really long time, and I think it just got to the point where unfortunately, we fell into this statistic.

[Megan Kelly]

Their relationship came to an end in the summer of 2022, and Debra moved out of. Of their home on North Lister.

[Jeremy Irwin]

I had hoped we would beat it, beat the odds, but it's okay because now we have the chance to get better on our own and be better for our family and ourselves.

[Deborah Bradley]

You know, the. The main concern for me outside, second to Lisa, has always been the boys and making sure that they have some semblance of a normal life even with this going on. And I feel that we have at least succeeded in that.

[Megan Kelly]

And you still, notwithstanding the fact that you're separated from, from Deborah, you still believe in her? You still. It hasn't caused you to doubt her?

[Deborah Bradley]

No, not. I mean, not at all. I mean, it doesn't change the fact. I mean, we're talking about my daughter here, and we're talking about the. Her mother. So it's the same thing I've been saying for years. You know, if you're going to tell me that Deborah did it, you better tell me what it is and you better tell me a story associated with it. Other than that I've heard it all and you can't tell me nothing new.

[Jeremy Irwin]

I think that God put us together because he knew we would be able to survive long enough to be there for each other in positive ways. And we may not be together now, but I still trust him and I will always love him because he has my kids.

[Deborah Bradley]

You look at the joy that you get from raising two boys and having them go out into the world, and they're awesome young men and they're. They're gonna kill it. And they have their own life paths and everything's starting to work out for them and. But as a man, I was robbed my portion of that with my daughter. You know, I hope one day that tomorrow or a year from now or whatever, I hope that Lisa's found and that she comes home and we can start over and at 13 years old or 18 years old or however old she is. But it would be nice to start that relationship in which I haven't been able to have this whole time.

[Jeremy Irwin]

What if all it takes is just the one person to watch what we're doing now? And they like, oh, this kid looks familiar.

[Megan Kelly]

It.

[Jeremy Irwin]

It could happen in so many ways. And we've also put our DNA with Ancestry.com and 23andMe. And I open up my email and I, you know, and I'll see you have another relative. And I always click on it, hoping it's her.

[Megan Kelly]

Cindy. Lorette.

[Deborah Bradley]

I've tried to convince myself that she's no longer here and to move on, but I can't. I'm going with my gut and my heart. She's out there somewhere. She's a beautiful little girl, and we're gonna find her. This is for Lisa. We need to find what happened to Lisa. Where the hell is she? Dead or alive, we need to find out what happened. There. I said it.

[Megan Kelly]

Like, how do you make sense of why this happened?

[Deborah Bradley]

There's. There's a lot of. A lot of tough questions, and the answer is free will and evil men will do evil things.

[Megan Kelly]

What's your best hope of where she's been these past 12 years?

[Jeremy Irwin]

My best hope is that she's safe and she's with people that love her and care for her and feed her well and treat her well, and she's able to go to the doctor and maybe she's able to go to school somewhere.

[Megan Kelly]

She just has no idea that she's actually someone else's child.

[Jeremy Irwin]

That's what I'm hoping, that she's totally ignorant to it and living a completely normal life. That's what I really hope for.

[Megan Kelly]

Do you ever wonder whether it would be easier if you knew, you know, one way or the other what had happened? If just. Even if the outcome were bad, you know, that you had a confirmation that she had passed, Would that somehow be easier?

[Deborah Bradley]

Well, I think if that's my two options. If I were to know that something bad happened or to never know, then I'll just stay never knowing. I guess.

[Megan Kelly]

Jeremy would rather never know. And he and Deborah didn't make it. Bill Stanton spent a lot of time with Deborah and Jeremy. He joined me along with our other go to crime expert Phil Houston.

[Jim Spellman]

You know, you could feel the bond, and I saw it, and I'm sure you saw it between the two of them. I mean, it's a nightmare. And statistically, they should have been divorced within months. But their faith in Lisa and themselves kept them together for years. You know, I know people in a lot higher tax brackets than them.

[Megan Kelly]

You.

[Jim Spellman]

You Know, a lot higher education than them that, you know, would have crumbled. It says a lot.

[Megan Kelly]

And he never doubted her. He never doubted her. Doubted.

[Jim Spellman]

It's a sad love story.

[Megan Kelly]

But when you watched her today, what jumped out at you?

[Jim Spellman]

That this woman has evolved as a person. How she remains resolute. And I wanted her to be guilty more than anyone because statistically, she was. I wanted to wrap it up and get the heck home, you know, they had no reason to accept me in their home. I told them as soon as I got there, I'm not here for you. Meaning that if it's you, I'm coming for you. And I said that to them, and they looked me square in the eye. Help find our baby.

[Megan Kelly]

What did you make of the fact that in my interview with Deborah, she was saying. This did jump out at me. She was saying things like, there's an example of a mother who found her daughter after 16 years. There's an example of a father who found his kid after X years. I went to 23andMe and I gave my DNA. I went to Ancestry.com and I gave my DNA there just in case, you know, she finds it. I realize even somebody who had done something would be smart enough to say present tense, present tense, present tense. So I. That's okay. I'll check that to the side. But doing things like that, I believe her that she did searches for a child who came back. Why would you do that if you knew your child was no longer.

[Jim Spellman]

No, that's what. That's what gets her through the day.

[Megan Kelly]

What did you make of that stuff, Phil?

[Phil Houston]

I believe that she has, but it's also her undoing, I believe. I spoke to her about a year and a half ago, and when I hung up, I thought, my goodness, the frustration that she's feeling is going to eat her alive. And. And, you know, I don't want to trivialize it in this comparison, but, you know, think for a moment. You're at your house and you. All sudden, you're looking for your car keys, and you can't find them. And how quickly you become frustrated and you look and you start, you know, you know, hollering at people and, you know, help me find my keys. And, you know, whatever. Think if that frustration went on for 12 years, how would you. How would you, you know, how big would that build that you're looking for, this thing that you can't find?

[Megan Kelly]

That leads me back to these police reports that you guys have seen, these interview reports that we managed to get our hands on. And they talk about how these alleged petty criminals around this case, allegedly, again, this very much could be crooks trying to lower their sentences and give police fake little gold nuggets. But they talk about having seen pictures of a grave site, pictures of a mound of dirt. Somebody allegedly brought the baby in a black garbage bag and buried it. Like there's some of that out there. I mean, it's possible that she did the same thing, that that's, that's all made up, but that she did actually bring the baby out there and that the baby was buried and this same keystone cop force just didn't find it.

[Phil Houston]

See, the first thing that comes to my mind, Megan, is that if I've committed a crime as heinous as this, this particular crime, I find it hard to believe I'd be running around telling people that we, you know, we've done this and so forth. And, you know, while one person might do it, I think if it were a group effort, that one person would be in hot water pretty quickly with the rest of the team, so to speak. You know, even if they were under the influence of drugs, the next morning, they would probably be saying to themselves, we need to put a, you know, put a lid on this.

[Megan Kelly]

The greatest thing I think Deborah's got in her favor. You tell me if I'm wrong. Bill is Phil Houston.

[Jim Spellman]

And for that, nothing to add, right? Absolutely.

[Megan Kelly]

I just can't get past the fact that the human lie detector, CIA, 25 years, breaking terrorists, breaking double agents, seeing the deception where no one else could. That that guy got fooled by Deborah Bradley. I don't believe it.

[Phil Houston]

Thank you for the kind words, Megan. Believe me, like you, this case has haunted me. And I pray often that I'm right and that she's right that that Lisa's out there somewhere.

[Megan Kelly]

Coming up in our next episode, Jersey John Tanko, the man everyone wants to know more about. We found him. And wait until you hear what he told me. We'll see you tomorrow for the final episode. Don't miss that. But first, if you're watching right now, please take a look at this picture of Lisa as she might look now. If you're listening, you can see the photo on YouTube or just go to MeganKelly.com if you see her or think you might have any information that that can help find her, please write to me. The address is Megan M e g y ngankelly.com you can also pass along tips on the baby Lisa story to the Kansas City Police department or encourage them to get active on this case. That would be very helpful. Reach out at kccrimestoppers.com kcrimestoppers.com or call them at 816-474. TIPS TIPS. That's 816-474-8477. So many people these days are focusing on getting healthy. And speaking of health, let me tell you about Jacob and Kristin, the founders of We Heart Nutrition. They are raising five kids while running a company that's helping hardworking Americans live the American dream. We Heart Nutrition makes high quality research backed supplements for women and men at every stage of life, helping you stay strong, energized and hitting your wellness goals. But this is not just another supplement company. They are proudly Pro Life, donating 10% of every sale to pregnancy care centers supporting moms and babies in need. They have over 10005 star reviews from real people seeing real results. Go to weheartnutrition.com and take their quick 20 second quiz to get your personalized supplement subscription recommendation delivered right to your door each month. And right now they're giving you 20% off your first order with the code Megan. Invest in your health and go to weheartnutrition.com, use the code Megan to get 20% off. That's weheartnutrition.com code Megan. Okay, so you're thinking about what to get that person who has everything. Or maybe you are that person that has everything and you just happen to appreciate the finer things. Well, do you want something really special? Consider hot salt. This is such a unique, fun gift. Yes, hot salt, exquisite savory heat. Now you're interested. So let me tell you about Firecracker Farm, a wonderful little family company that makes hot salt a delightful spice infused sea salt. It has the perfect amount of heat and amazing flavor that makes everything taste better. Word is getting out and people are loving it. And that is because it's made with love. People can feel it and taste it. It's small batch family operation so supplies are limited. It comes in sleek stainless steel push grinders. Really cool. Plus you can take them anywhere. When you run out, they have refills a little too spicy for you. Just mix it in with some regular sea salt to tame the heat. But you won't need to. It's blended to perfection. Honestly, it's the best thing to happen to food since fire. So what are you waiting for? Go to Firecracker Farm right now and use the code MK at checkout for a special discount. That's Firecracker Farm Code mk. Get some hot salt before it's all gone. You're gonna thank me.