← The Megyn Kelly Show
The Megyn Kelly Show
Ben Shapiro Responds to Tucker Carlson, Plus Sydney Sweeney and Newsom, with Michael Knowles and Andrew Klavan - "Megyn Kelly Live" in FL | Ep. 1189
01:57:07
Megyn Kelly begins her "Megyn Kelly Live" show in Jacksonville by talking about comments from Hollywood star Jennifer Lawrence about why she's not going to speak out politically anymore, her admission that celebrities have no sway to move voters, the culture shifting right, and more. Then, Ben Shapiro, Michael Knowles, and Andrew Klavan of The Daily Wire join to talk about the full backstory to Ben's takedown of Tucker this week, the relevance of the Nick Fuentes interview, the actual texts between the two after Charlie's assassination, how Israel factors into the disagreement, free speech vs. "platforming" and "gatekeeping," the state of the conservative movement, how he would have handled the Fuentes interview, the viral Sydney Sweeney dress, why it was actually a subtle dig at liberal feminism, Sweeney shutting down a leftist interviewer, Gavin Newsom's totally fake persona, knowing the truth of the bible, the rise of Mamdani in NYC, and more. More from The Daily Wire: https://...
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- [00:00]
Megyn Kelly
Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@ multicare.org whenever I need to send roses that are guaranteed to make someone's day, the only place I trust is 1-800-flowers.com with 1-800-flowers. My friends and family always receive stunning, high quality bouquets that they absolutely love. Right now, when you buy a dozen multicolored roses, 1-800-flowers will double your bouquet to two dozen roses. To claim this special double roses offer, go to 1-800-flowers.com sxm that's 1-800-flowers. Com sxm. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on SiriusXM channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hello. God, it's so great to see you. Love you, Jacksonville. Thank you so much for coming out tonight. God, it's so fun seeing all of you. You know, I was talking to people backstage about how I said I needed to get out on this tour, I needed to get out on the road, I needed, like, to see you and you needed to see me, and we needed to be together right now. And it's been even better than I thought it was gonna be. It's such a feeling being up here and actually seeing the people who listen to the show and make it possible for me to do the show every day. And that's all of you. People say, oh, thank you so much for what you do. And I say thank you for making it possible for me to do a job I love and to set the record straight on so many things. I love you, too. And listen, what's on my mind tonight is that we are making progress. Okay? It was one year ago, almost exactly that we were leading up to election day, right? The polls were disturbingly close and we weren't sure what was going to happen. And what did we see in Campaign 2024 on Team Dem? We saw Oprah, right? Yes. Boo. We saw a parade of celebrities come out like rappers who are now we know are getting paid big dollars to show up at her campaign rallies and endorse her. And person after person in every election. It could have been the one in 2024 with her or with Obama earlier. The celebs always line up and they do their little thing and they think they're relevant. And the Julia Roberts ad, you know, where they showed the Republican wife, like, disobeying her husband and, like, clicking it for Kamala. They totally misunderstand our side of the aisle. Right? Like, we're gonna get beaten by our husbands if we don't vote the way they want us to. That is a true Democrats view of conservatives. So there were celebrities everywhere doing this. And I think on our team, we're like, yeah, we're used to this. We don't care what they think. Like, I guess only Democrats care what they think. And Democrats did care what they thought not so long ago, but they don't anymore. And one of the great things about the Internet is it's totally democratized, like, celebrity. And we really don't give a shit what they say at all because they're ubiquitous. Right? And even the left is starting to feel that way. And I'm gonna give you two examples that have made me very happy, because in this past year, the left has realized that they don't have the power to move votes on their side either anymore. And these celebrities, it's wonderful. It's working just as it should. Are shrinking away from politics more and more and realizing they need to stay in their damn lane. Right? We're sick of them ruining our movies by coming out and showing their Trump derangement syndrome. Why can't we watch a movie without knowing how much they hate us? Right? The left never has that problem, because even when you have somebody declared that they're conservative and they're an actor, they're never nasty about it. Like, they're sweet. You know, maybe like Dennis Quaid, who's like, I really love the Gipper. He was the best president of my lifetime, and I'm gonna star in Reagan. That's as far as most of them go. You know, occasionally get like, the Jon Voight or the James woods, but that's a. That's a unicorn. You know, when they're that strong and they come out and they really make the case more often, it's somebody who's like, I'm an independent. We all know what that is. So. But now we're starting to see the left get shamed. The left. Celebrities get shamed out of being too outspoken. I'm going to give you two examples. I'm going to start with. I don't know if you saw, you know, Jennifer Lawrence, right? She's a huge star. She gave an interview to the New York Times just this past weekend, I think it was. And there was an extraordinary moment where a. Of course they Tried to get into her politics and she is left. She's made that very clear. And listen to how she answered. I'm gonna play a sound bite. Watch this. You have been politically outspoken in the past, in the first Trump administration. You know, you had a lot to say. I'm curious how you feel about talking out now. I don't really know if I should. No, you shouldn't. I think, like, the first Trump administration was so wild and just how can we let this stand? Like, I felt like I was running around like a chicken with my head cut off. But as we've learned election after election, celebrities do not make a difference whatsoever.
- [05:46]
Ben Shapiro
On who people vote for.
- [05:49]
Megyn Kelly
And so then what am I doing? I'm just sharing my opinion on something that's going to just add fuel to a fire that's ripping the country apart. I mean, we are so divided. Yes. Guess who taught her that lesson? All of you. Honestly, it's like she realizes now, right, it's to steal a phrase, pissing into the wind when they come out and what do they do? They hurt their own careers. They embarrass themselves. They alien half the country. And she goes on to say that, maybe I'll just express my opinions through my art. Thank you. That's all we ever asked. Then we can choose whether to go to that movie or not. But, you know, it may be some woke thing that we think is terrible, maybe some great thing, but if we go to see something that is appealing to us as right wing people or independent people, we don't want to be constantly thinking about how much you loathe us, Ben Affleck. Right? So she got the lesson. And then just today, there was another moment with Sydney Sweeney. You've heard of her, I'm sure the men in the audience are. Have you ever heard of Sydney Sweeney? Yeah. And I'm going to save. I'm going to save the Sydney Sweeney moment for when my guests come out and we'll talk about why it's equally encouraging. All right, so we. The point is, we are winning. These loudmouth celebrities have gotten the message. Sit down, shut up and act. That's it, Right? We're not listening to you anymore. And the great democratizer of the Internet has taught them that them being ubiquitous has been bad for their political power but great for the promo of their careers. And they have to choose. So right on us. Let's be honest. America can still be a dangerous place. And you cannot afford to wait for help when you need it. Sure, you could use a firearm, but in today's America, defending yourself with deadly force could have legal consequences. According to FBI data, 99.9% of all altercations do not require lethal force. And that's exactly why many are turning to Burna. Berna is proudly American hand. Assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana, these less lethal self defense launchers are trusted by hundreds of government agencies, law enforcement departments and private security companies. Over 600,000 Burna pistols have been sold, most to private citizens who refuse to be victims. Want to shore up their self defense plans. Burner launchers fire rock hard kinetic rounds and also powerful tear gas and pepper projectiles capable of stopping a threat from up to 60ft away. No background checks, no waiting periods and Burner can ship straight to your door. Take responsibility, protect your future. Visit Burna.com right now or your local sportsman's warehouse. That's by r n a.com or your local sportsman's warehouse. Warehouse. Visit now and be prepared to defend. So you guys know our guests tonight are Andrew Clavin, Michael Knowles, and Ben Shapiro. And we're going to kick it off in no particular order though with Andrew Clavin, who I know you all know and who needs no introduction, but let's give him one anyway. Take a look at this.
- [09:05]
Andrew Klavan
Trigger warning. I'm Andrew Clavin and this is the Andrew Clavin Show. My fight is to get people to see that they're being lied to every day. Feminism raised some really interesting issues, really important issues, but now it's just leftism in a skirt. There is a really 0% excuse to talk to a third grader about his sexuality if you are not his parent. They talk about him looking for retribution, but really it's only justice. The holy crap debate. We finally beat Medicare. Holy crap. You can have all kinds of different opinions. You're smart, smart people. We're not going to agree on everything. Luckily, I'm so old that before you can screw everything up, I'm going to be having lunch with Jesus. All right.
- [10:06]
Megyn Kelly
I love the fire. Do you love the fire? It makes me think of Charlie. He loved it so much. Great to have you.
- [10:14]
Andrew Klavan
It's so nice to see you.
- [10:15]
Michael Knowles
Oh, my God.
- [10:16]
Megyn Kelly
Each other in person. This is a thrill. It's the nature of our industry now. It's all over satellite.
- [10:22]
Andrew Klavan
Everybody's on tv.
- [10:23]
Megyn Kelly
So it's been so fun for me to actually see people. All right, so I have so much I want to go over with you. We've talked many times about your religious background.
- [10:32]
Andrew Klavan
Yeah.
- [10:32]
Megyn Kelly
And I have questions because I've Been searching on my own faith for a while now, but especially since Charlie died.
- [10:38]
Andrew Klavan
Yeah.
- [10:39]
Megyn Kelly
Have you guys, have you felt more faithful since Charlie died? Yeah. Right. I think a lot of us are like having a renewed faith and a renewed search for what it is. I mean, I've always been a Catholic, but yes, Charlie Kirk does matter and still matters. So you're somebody who. You have an interesting background. You were brought born Jewish, you were raised in a secular Jewish family and then you converted to Christianity at 54.
- [11:07]
Ben Shapiro
49.
- [11:08]
Megyn Kelly
49, okay. 49 years old. And you speak about your faith so beautifully. I've learned a lot about the Christian faith from you, actually. And you are like Charlie in that you can look through any political lens and infuse your faith into what we're seeing. So first of all, just tell us about how that transition, that conversion happened to you.
- [11:26]
Andrew Klavan
Well, it's a 35 year story, so I'll have to condense it quite a lot, but it's. It really had to do with fiction in a way. When I was 19, I read the book Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky, which is about a murder. And it was just at that moment when the moral relativists were coming up into the colleges and teaching you that one culture is just as good as another. Who knows what's right or wrong. You think one thing is right, I think another thing is right. And I read that book and there's a brutal murder in it of two women, one of them a retarded woman. It's just so pitiful. I thought, no, some things are wrong, some things are wrong. And they'd be wrong even on a planet where everything everybody said they were right. And that kept me from falling into the pit of moral relativism. But it stuck me with the idea that if there is a right and wrong, there must be a supreme good. And that supreme good has to be a consciousness, because only consciousness is good. Well, you're applauding, but it's hard to work in my business if you believe these things.
- [12:28]
Megyn Kelly
And you know, Andrew's a very successful author, writer and screenwriter.
- [12:31]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah.
- [12:32]
Andrew Klavan
And so slowly that worked in my head and I couldn't quite accept it. And I had a terrible. When I was in my 20s, I had a terrible breakdown. Suicidal, depressed, you know, just absolutely at the end of my rope. And I couldn't reach out to God then because I was so stubborn, I thought, well, then it's just a crutch and I'm just in pain. But through what I truly Believe was a miracle. I found a shrink who actually healed me, which may be the only time this has ever happened in psychiatric history. And I became really, within the course of two years, I went from being suicidally depressed to being a very happy, kind of jolly person, doing really well in my career, doing what I always loved doing, which is writing novels. And then I thought, well, now I've got no excuse. And I started to pray. And prayer transformed my life. And this is what I always tell people. You know, people always say to me, like, you know, how do I connect with God? I thought, call him. His lines are open. You know, it's like, I mean, talk to him. And I started out with a three word prayer, which was, thank you, Lord, because I had come from such a horrible place in my life to such a beautiful place. And then it got to be like 15 minutes, 20 minutes, sometimes half an hour, sometimes an hour of prayer every day. And at the end of five years, I was now a screenwriter and a novelist. And I was driving my BMW convertible in the hills of Santa Barbara, complete jerk.
- [14:04]
Megyn Kelly
Sounds kind of awesome.
- [14:06]
Andrew Klavan
And I said. And I said to God, you know, I said, gee, you've given me everything. You just transformed everything. And you're God and I'm just a schmo. What can I do for you? And it came back to me instantaneously, you should be baptized. And I'm driving my car and out loud I went, you got to be kidding me.
- [14:25]
Megyn Kelly
Were you attending Catholic mass? What were you. What were you going to.
- [14:27]
Andrew Klavan
At the time, I was Episcopalian, which is no longer a religion. But at the time it was.
- [14:33]
Megyn Kelly
He's not. Definitely not.
- [14:35]
Andrew Klavan
Now I'm an Anglo Catholic. But then I was, and it took me five months, I started to argue with God about this, and I thought, I can't really believe in these miracles and this stuff. And I went back and I had read the Bible all my life because as a novelist, I knew it was the center of all art. And all Western art is based on the novel in one way or another. And when I went back and read it for the first time, as if it might be true, I thought, oh, that makes sense. And listen, I'm not a literalist. I don't think every word is exactly what it means. Some of it's poetry, some of it's legends, some of it's all kinds of. But it's all the word of God. And when I read it that way, it all made sense to me. And I knew that it was going to ruin my Hollywood career. Which it ultimately did. And I knew it was going to. I thought it was going to start a terrible fight with my father, who had once told me if I ever thought of converting, he would disown me. And we had sort of made a separate piece and I thought, well, I'm going to have to tell him because I give interviews and he'll see it. And he came to visit me. I was living in California. He and my mother were living in New York, and they came to visit me. And he walked in the door and he said, I'm seeing double. I have to go home. And this was a joke in my family. My father could never take a vacation without having an emergency that caused him to go home. So I laughed it off. But he was, in fact has his final illness. And so I couldn't tell him at that point. It would have just broken his heart. So I spent a long time going back to New York, training with this priest, this Episcopal priest I knew, and then visiting my father, who was fading away. And he died in a week that was both Easter and Passover, which was very meaningful and sad. And then I came back for his memorial and left the memorial and went to the church and was baptized.
- [16:16]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, wow.
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Andrew Klavan
Yeah.
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Megyn Kelly
But how did you go to Jesus? Like you, because you kept reading after that Old Testament. And, you know, that's a big shift when you read the second part and say, that's for me as a Jew.
- [16:28]
Andrew Klavan
Well, the thing was, I knew a lot about both Testaments because I was writing novels and it informed the way I thought. And I knew that Jesus was the major character in all of Western civilization. And the idea that we can't know God until we see him, and all we can know of God is what we see is what really turned the key for me, that this was the God that I could talk to face to face. And when I read the New Testament, it occurred to me that even if nothing like that had ever happened, everything that was in it was true. And that's just not the way things work when everything you read is true. It's true, you know, I mean, that's. It's not an illusion. I don't believe that people are living in hallucinations unless they're literally insane. So I thought, no, this is. This is what I believe. And it was just amazing. I mean, I had been baptized three weeks, and my wife, who knows me back and forth down to the ground, turned to me and she said, you're a totally different person. That serenity is just. It's insane.
- [17:33]
Ben Shapiro
Wow.
- [17:34]
Andrew Klavan
And the joy.
- [17:35]
Megyn Kelly
And then you got into political commentary, and that serenity went out the window.
- [17:39]
Andrew Klavan
It's not where you were thinking, what was. It ended my. That ended my Hollywood career like that.
- [17:44]
Megyn Kelly
So how have you been taking in the increasing rise of Muslim politicians and many of whom are connected to radical Islamists who are saying openly that this is part of a plan? I'm really controlling American cities.
- [18:00]
Andrew Klavan
Yeah. I'm not a. You know, I wrote a novel when I was 25 in which I referred to my generation as holiday Jews. And the reason for that was that the. The Holocaust was not that long ago, and people knew what it was and remembered it. And so everybody was nice to the Jews, just like people were nice to gays after aids. You know, they understood, oh, yeah, this is bad, and these are human beings, and we ought to love them a little bit. And the holiday is over. And I see this in a lot of places. You know, your friend Tucker Carlson, I think, is expressing it. I think that Candace Owens is expressing it. I think. And I think that Islam, it's not individual Muslim people, because there are many lovely individual Muslim people. But as a religion, once they take over a majority, it grows up there. And what I know as a Jew who is a Christian, is that these are brother religions. St. Paul said that all of Israel will be saved and we are temporarily separated from one another. The Jews who don't believe in Christ and Christians were temporarily separated, but we will come together. And so that hatred, to me is spiritual. You know, you said that I always talk about God because I think that God is the central reality of life. And since we. And I think everything is about God, it really is. And if you think about it, if there's a God. And spoiler alert, there is, then for about 200 years of secular life, all of our thinkers, all of our most famous thinkers, all of our most famous authors, all of our most famous painters have been living in a delusion about the most important thing in the world. And I think that, you know, the Jews are the vehicle by which God reentered the world after the fall. I think they are the vehicle by which he created the Messiah for all people. And I think that when you hate them, you are slapping God in the face. You're basically spitting in his eye, which is a bad idea.
- [19:57]
Megyn Kelly
So you're not feeling great about. Globalize the Intifada, Mumdani.
- [20:00]
Andrew Klavan
Yeah, Globalize the Intifada sounds like it might make a good song, but it's a philosophy I'm against.
- [20:07]
Megyn Kelly
It's shocking to me that New York City did what it did. It's shocking to me that they would elevate a man like that with the connections he has to this post. And, you know, he's not alone. You know, there was that Omar Fateh that almost won as mayor of Minneapolis. And, you know, Dearborn is now run by a Muslim mayor and is almost majority Muslim. Minneapolis, too. Like, I'm. With all due respect to people who are Muslim, I don't think this is a good thing. I don't think this is consistent with Western values. And you see these videos online all the time of them saying, like, we have six kids and the white people are having one, and this is part of the plan. And they're not right. They're not wrong. Like, I mean, look at. Read any leftist paper talking about how liberals don't want to have children anymore, the environment. Maybe now they'll listen to Bill Gates, who's finally reversed himself on his environmental catastrophism, and they'll start to actually reproduce and have children.
- [20:56]
Andrew Klavan
I think it goes beyond that, though. I think that there is one of the things that shocked me coming when I came to the Daily Wire, I was working with a lot of guys who were much younger than me, and one of the things I was shocked by was the hostility toward women. Guys, you know, and guys and girls always talk about each other, rolling their eyes a little bit. You know, I've been an athlete at.
- [21:14]
Ben Shapiro
The Daily Wire everywhere, everywhere.
- [21:16]
Megyn Kelly
What are you saying?
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Andrew Klavan
No, no, we all. We all do do this. You know, women, men, you know, with all. All that stuff. And, you know, I've been an athlete most of my life, and I've been in a lot of locker rooms and you hear the way talk. People talk about women. But in my generation, it was always with incredible love. Oh, women, you know, they're kind of nuts, but we love them. You know, all that was gone.
- [21:36]
Megyn Kelly
You know, I mean, is he wrong, if we're being honest?
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Andrew Klavan
But all that was gone with the young people. They were showing me tape pictures of Andrew tape hate saying, you know, you can dominate and destroy women. This guy's a pimp. You know, that's a bad. That's a bad thing. You know, pimps are bad.
- [21:51]
Megyn Kelly
It's a reaction, right? It's a reaction.
- [21:52]
Andrew Klavan
It's a reaction, right? And I truly believe, because I do believe everything is centered in God, that there is something about women, women's bodies, women's power to create life that is deeply connected to the holy and deeply connected to the spiritual, even God, when he wanted to become a human and had to have a mother, you know, first thing he did, picked out a mom, you know, and like. And so. And so when you are alienated from God, I think you're ultimately going to become alienated from femininity, from motherhood, from all the things that make life work. The only, the only western country where the population is growing. Israel, the only one. And that's because there's still this kind of tradition going on there, even among the non believers where you, you increase and multiply, you know, And I think that.
- [22:38]
Megyn Kelly
Better get to it.
- [22:39]
Andrew Klavan
We better get to it.
- [22:40]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I played that clip, I don't know if you saw it, of Jennifer Lawrence refusing really to sort of re evaluating her foray into politics. And I really see that as a bit of a watershed moment. Right. I mean, like, where Hollywood is going, you might be able to go back. I mean, do you think they've learned their lesson?
- [23:03]
Andrew Klavan
Know, I have been getting calls. I'm worried about. I'm less worried about people's opinions because, like, as you were saying, I believe everybody should be allowed to express his opinion. I don't believe anybody should be canceled or silenced. But I'm much more worried about the system that's in place that keeps any traditional values of making it onto the screen. You cannot do it. And it's an entire social system. When I worked in Hollywood, we had a secret organization called Friends of Abe.
- [23:31]
Megyn Kelly
That's right. Yeah, I know a lot of guys in that. Yeah, it was Gary Sumiz, the underground organization for conservatives.
- [23:37]
Andrew Klavan
Right. And it was like you went to these meetings and it was like an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. You'd come in and say, hi, my name is Andrew, I'm a conservative. Hi, Andrew. You know, it's like that, and it was terrible. And then you would go into a meeting where you were trying to sell a script, and the first words, that was George W. Bush days mostly, and Obama days. The first words out of the guy's mouth were to be, sit down. Isn't George W. Bush an idiot? And because I'm me, I would always say, I don't think so. And it's like, don't let the door hit you on the way out. And that is basically speaking up about the war. The movies that were being made that showed our military as bad guys while our military were being shot at in Afghanistan and Iraq. I started to write and say, you know, know this is wrong. No matter what you think about the war, it's wrong to make these movies because they're propaganda for the enemy. And my phone turned off like I thought somebody had unplugged it.
- [24:32]
Megyn Kelly
No, it's. They're a nasty industry. But it's reminding me of what one of our questioners asked. You know, a young girl talking about, how do I bring up politics when my friend is bringing up her politics? And I do think there's an opportunity, I think in today's day and age, almost. Almost 20, 26America, it would be so extraordinary if a young screenwriter went into that pitch meeting and was asked a question like that and then responded by saying, well, I'm a conservative, so I see things differently.
- [24:58]
Andrew Klavan
I did it all the time. I did it all the time.
- [25:00]
Megyn Kelly
And.
- [25:00]
Michael Knowles
And.
- [25:01]
Megyn Kelly
But I. But I. I kind of think they're. They've been brought to heel a bit. They understand their Wokapalooza movie extravaganza was a nightmare. It failed. They lost money, which is their true God in Hollywood, and that. I think they're conservative, curious. Now, there's. There's two places because they want our dollars.
- [25:21]
Andrew Klavan
There's two places where this is true. Apple tv, of all places. They have a sort of white man's lane, you know, where suddenly they'll put like. You know, they'll put like, George Clooney in a movie, and you go like, oh, okay, you know, I'll watch, and it'll be like an action film or something.
- [25:35]
Megyn Kelly
Meanwhile, like, he's not our representative. Pick someone else.
- [25:38]
Andrew Klavan
No, but the movie. But the movie will be pretty good, you know. And the. And the other is Christian.
- [25:42]
Megyn Kelly
Vince Vaughn.
- [25:43]
Andrew Klavan
Yeah, Vince Vaughn, he's great. But the other is Christian filmmaking, which I hated for a long time because I hate these happy, smiley Christian movies, you know, I mean. I mean, it's a movie, you know.
- [25:54]
Megyn Kelly
Our God, who doesn't hate happy and smiling.
- [25:57]
Andrew Klavan
Well, our guy got killed. You know, it's a tragic religion. And I used to. I used to think these movies were terrible, but then I realized something, that they bring in audience, people like them. And when you bring an audience, that attracts talent. And now you have things like the chosen, which is really creative.
- [26:17]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, it's excellent.
- [26:18]
Andrew Klavan
And. And Sound of Freedom, which was a very. Yeah. And I mean, the New York Times Sound of Freedom is about the child, you know, selling children into sex slavery. It had the New York Times going, well, you know, these conservatives hate sex slavery. What's wrong? You know.
- [26:36]
Megyn Kelly
Thanks.
- [26:37]
Andrew Klavan
But that's because the audience attracts the talent. And, you know, when the novel started out in the 18th century, it was supposed to be for, you know, women, go away women and read your novels. And then Jane Austen came along and took the form and turned it into an art because that's where the audience was and that's. And her talent brings in Charles Dickens and all. All the other guys who come in and made the great age of the novel. And so building an audience is a good thing. And I think the Christians have done that. And I think that if conservatives will just get past the hurdles that are in front of them and start making stuff themselves and start making it on the Internet and start using AI to make it and start peddling it any way they can figure out, I think we can beat them. Listen, we beat them in the media, right? I mean, we destroyed. We destroyed them and it was just. It was us, it was guys, little people shooting at the revolution, shooting at them from behind rocks.
- [27:33]
Megyn Kelly
It doesn't even have to be. You don't necessarily even have to make the film. Although if you can, great. But you can go patronize films like Top Gun, Maverick, which are not woke, which are pro America, which have somebody who. I mean, I think we can safely assume Tom Cruise is a Democrat, a leftist Democrat who's very, very pro American. COVID lockdowns and mandates, but who cares? His movie was great and was right down the middle. He was not propagandizing us. We can support those films and send a message to Hollywood. You do that. We're open minded. Our side always is open minded. We have to be. Otherwise we could take in no tv, no movies, no news, no sports. We couldn't work in corporate America. That's the beauty of being us. Okay.
- [28:13]
Andrew Klavan
Great guys.
- [28:13]
Megyn Kelly
Kevin Sorbo. There's a bunch of them. I mean, honestly, they're coming out more and more now because they feel emboldened. All right, I have to leave it there for now. Thank you so much. It's wonderful to see you.
- [28:23]
Andrew Klavan
Oh, it's pleasure.
- [28:24]
Megyn Kelly
Andrew Cleveland, everybody. He's wonderful, isn't he? If you've ever googled yourself, you know how many results contain your personal information and it's not by chance. Your info is available. Your name, your address, phone number, financial info, income, legal and health history. It can be sold and shared publicly without your consent. There are real risks here, including financial scams, identity theft, unfair targeting by insurance companies, and general safety risks. But I want to tell you about Incogni. Incogni helps you take control of your online privacy. You sign up, allow them to act on your behalf, and they demand that these data brokers Delete your personal info. Now they've introduced something huge. Custom data removals with their unlimited plan. Incogni's privacy team gets your info taken down from from any specific site. Right now, you can get 60% off 60 off an annual plan by heading to incog.com megan that's I n c o g n I.com megan and using code Megan at checkout. That's what gets you your discount. It's risk free with their 30 day money back guarantee. Take your personal data back with Incog. Get 60% off an annual plan at incogni.com Megan code Megan at checkout. Michael Knowles doesn't give a shit if you don't like him. He says all the most incendiary things. It's hard to make my jaw drop. And Michael Knowles does it regularly. And he does it by just being totally, unapologetically, fearlessly honest, but with such intellect behind the points that it really is like chewing rubies in your mouth when you repeat his words and hear him speak. Here's a little quick intro.
- [30:20]
Michael Knowles
Outrage boiling over at the University of Buffalo. Hundreds of students and community members gathered in protest. Do you have anything else to say? Hello, I'm Michael Knowles. I'm a conservative podcast host. I am surrounded by 20 LGBTQ activists. I'm gay, married. Hmm, Right, like you're not really married.
- [30:42]
Ben Shapiro
I'm sorry.
- [30:42]
Megyn Kelly
I'm gonna outright call you a fascist.
- [30:44]
Michael Knowles
Oh, no.
- [30:45]
Megyn Kelly
Permanently banned by TikTok. Every time you come on this show, Michael, you're in trouble. What'd you do? What did you do?
- [30:51]
Ben Shapiro
I'm always in trouble.
- [30:52]
Megyn Kelly
Plenty of those white conservative men that.
- [30:54]
Michael Knowles
You like so much seem quite happy, actually.
- [30:56]
Megyn Kelly
Just take a look at this place.
- [30:58]
Michael Knowles
Joy Reid, she has just been canned, kicked to the side of the road. Her show is over.
- [31:04]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, well, we got Michael there. Michael, any.
- [31:06]
Michael Knowles
Anything you want to say to Joy? Joy, very nice to meet you. Now there's no longer a market for that absolutely vile content. And I think that's good for the culture. Broadway, and now we can all chat on Pierce's show. We build, they destroy. That has been true since the terms left and right entered into politics during the French Revolution. If they want to tear it down and knock it down, let them try their very best. Pay them no heed. We're going to keep moving forward. Megan, did you say talking to me is like chewing rubies? I want that in my Twitter bio. That's really good.
- [32:00]
Megyn Kelly
I like that you take all the thoughts I have in my head and make them sound so much more eloquent and informed. It's one of the many things I love about you. One of the first bonding moments Michael and I had, and you know, you guys will understand why this is personal, is you were on Fox News, you said something totally reasonable about Greta Thunberg, and then Fox canceled you, and you were never allowed it to come back on.
- [32:22]
Michael Knowles
That did happen. I was on Fox and I was asked about Greta Thunberg, Saint Greta of the Blessed Sailboat, who was. You're familiar with her.
- [32:32]
Megyn Kelly
Okay.
- [32:32]
Michael Knowles
For those who don't know, she is a truant who thought that the Sun Monster was going to kill us all. And so she sailed a boat back and forth with, like, private jets flying overhead, whatever. So anyway, I said the girl was 16, 17 or 16, and I said I thought it was wrong that the left would exploit a girl who was mentally ill because her mother wrote a whole book about how she had these mental illnesses. And I said, that's wrong to do, and you shouldn't exploit kids for politics. And then they canceled me for that.
- [33:02]
Megyn Kelly
Fox News decided Michael Knowles was too controversial because of that comment. I remember dming you saying, what utter bullshit.
- [33:10]
Michael Knowles
I appreciated that.
- [33:11]
Megyn Kelly
So wrong. And a beautiful friendship with. Was born from that point forward. So that's.
- [33:15]
Michael Knowles
By the way, that's the only good thing that's come out of Greta Thunberg's activism, is our friendship.
- [33:18]
Megyn Kelly
That's it. Thank you, Greta. She's way off of that. Cause now, now, you know, she's a. She's a globalizing, indifferent type.
- [33:26]
Michael Knowles
Yeah. There's no more money in the Sun Monster, so she's got to put on the kefia.
- [33:30]
Megyn Kelly
That's more like that. Like that. It's amazing. Right? So you were born and raised in New York City?
- [33:37]
Michael Knowles
I was. I was raised in the suburbs. I'm a suburban man, though I guess I lived. When I was really little, I was in the city, and I lived in the city later on. And after what occurred on Tuesday, I don't think I'm ever going to live in the city again.
- [33:50]
Megyn Kelly
I know I lived in Manhattan for 17 years. I can't say I'm totally shocked by what they did because they did elect de Blasio twice, who is truly an idiot. I don't think Zoran Mamda me is an idiot, but Bill de Blasio is dumb as a donkey.
- [34:08]
Michael Knowles
Meghan. I fear that Bill de Blasio is like Winston Churchill and Ronald Reagan combined compared to Zoran Mondali.
- [34:15]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, God. I think this guy's clever and I'm a little fearful of how clever he is. What do you make of his ascent?
- [34:23]
Michael Knowles
A lot of people asked me when Zoran was running. They said, michael, isn't this terrible that a Muslim is going to be the mayor of New York City? And I said, we should be so lucky if he were actually a Muslim. Look, I'm, I understand Christendom's had a little conflict with Islam for about 1400 years now. So I, you know, it's a tough situation. However, at least if he were actually Muslim, I could speak to the guy. He would believe in God. He would believe in a moral order, he would believe in an ordered society. I, you know, we could have a conversation. It wouldn't be good, but I could we have a conversation? I fear it's worse than that. I fear when you look at the Muslim communists, he leans a little more on the communist side, I think. I think he is a cringe millennial leftist who is every one of the your worst classmates at university. He's like that guy and he is going to destroy New York City.
- [35:13]
Megyn Kelly
Yep. I know it. It's happening. And that's what they voted for. And we're all gonna have to sit by and actually watch it. What does it say though, about where the Democratic Party is? I mean, do you think he is the future? When they asked Hakeem Jeffries that, he said no. But Zoram Mamdani won by huge margins. And if you don't think there are other Democrats in other cities right now saying that's the way to win elections, you're wrong.
- [35:38]
Michael Knowles
Who else would the future be? It's not Mrs. Pelosi. After a very brief 64 year political career, Nancy Pelosi is retiring, it seems.
- [35:48]
Megyn Kelly
Did you hear that news? She's not going to run for reelection. She's 85.
- [35:53]
Michael Knowles
I don't want to violate any SEC rules or anything, but if you are invested in the Nancy Pelosi tracking stocks, sure. Get out. Get out right now. They're going to drop just like she does. That's right. So is she the future? Is Schumer the future? No. Kamala Harris, the former future president, was asked about this. Who's the future of the party? Do you have any leaders? Because for the first time in at least 25 years, there is no leading candidate for president. The Democrats in 2000, 2004, the leading candidate with 25% of the vote at this time in the cycle was Al Gore. After that it was Hillary Clinton. After that it was Joe Biden. There was always someone who had this role. There's no one right now. And Kamala was asked about this, and she said, oh, you know, it's got a giggled. And coconuts fell out of the sky. And then she said. And then she said, of course we have a future. I mean, we have Zo Ron Mamdani. She named him. We have Jasmine Crockett. Jasmine Crockett. Can you imagine? We have aoc, whoever. And so, you know, you got it from the horse's mouth or some part of the horse. They're saying that this is the future of the Democrats. And I believe, believer, by the way.
- [37:08]
Megyn Kelly
Zoram Mamdani cannot be president. He was born in Uganda and he's Ugandan.
- [37:13]
Michael Knowles
Like it never stop. Barack Obama. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Don't clip that.
- [37:18]
Megyn Kelly
Don't clip that, you get canceled again. Who's smarter, Karine Jean Pierre or Kamala Harris?
- [37:32]
Michael Knowles
I will have you know, and I have this on good authority. Karine Jean Pierre is a black queer woman. No. Yes.
- [37:39]
Megyn Kelly
No.
- [37:40]
Michael Knowles
I heard that on tv.
- [37:41]
Megyn Kelly
How do you know?
- [37:42]
Michael Knowles
I heard it many times from Karine Jean Pierre. So it's a. It's a tricky battle. I mean, maybe. Maybe she's like a fox, that Karine Jean Pierre. She held that job the whole time, and there was no actual president the whole time. So Karine Jean Pierre effectively might have been the. The president for like, four years, three years.
- [38:01]
Megyn Kelly
Do you view Kamala Harris as an intellect?
- [38:07]
Michael Knowles
You know, St. Thomas Aquinas shows us that all human beings are made up of, you know, matter and intellect. You know, we have will and intellect, and part of that is memory, and part of that. So inasmuch as she is a human being, I suppose I grudgingly have to admit that she might have some intellectual. But that. Actually, that's the first thing that's made me doubt Thomas Aquinas ever in my entire life. So I don't know.
- [38:33]
Megyn Kelly
Same. You had an interesting opinion recently on Sydney Sweeney. Now, we talked on the show about the dress she wore. Well, did you like the dress? Split of opinion, maybe. So I came out against it. I love her. I think she's quite. She's very brave. But I didn't like the dress because I thought you went too far, you know, and it was Allie Beth Stuckey on the show that day who said, can we draw the line at Areola? Like, we're all for titillation. We love the return of actual women, you know, to these events and as the headliners and so on. But like headliner, good headlights, not good. You know, there should be some modesty, but you had an interesting taste take on why the dress actually was kind of conservative in a way.
- [39:22]
Michael Knowles
It's a Straussian reading. It's an esoteric. I'm not recommending. I would never send my daughter out in the Sydney Sweeney dress. I do not recommend it generally. However, I have to point out what was the event that she wore it to. The event was called the Power of Women Gala. And what do we know about Sydney Sweeney? We know that she's a registered Republican, reportedly. Love that. We know that just today some liberal journalist was trying to bait her into all these stupid answers about her jeans ad and she just completely shut it down. She's got better message discipline than the entire Republican Party put together. We know that in a culture of androgynous they thems with crazy hair and 15 septum piercings, that Sydney Sweeney looks normal, like a really, really, really pretty normal person. And so I thought there was this esoteric message, very anti feminist, which she said, you want to invite me to the Power of Women Gala? I am going to show you a big part of the power of women. And so I'm not saying it's conservative, I'm just saying it's not feminist. It ain't feminist. For sure.
- [40:31]
Megyn Kelly
Yes. I actually love that point. I take your point because I remember not to compare myself to Sydney Sweeney. Sadly, I wish I could, but. No, but it was 2016 and we were headed to the Republican National Convention and I was anchoring for Fox and it was a crazy time. You know, it was like Trump and just so tumultuous. And it was crazy for me at Fox because that day we had gone out to the Republican National Convention in Ohio, and that day it broke on the air that Roger Ailes was credibly accused by all these women and that I had been cooperating with these investigators. And it was just like my whole life was on the, on the news. And then I had to go do the news and I went out to do the coverage that night. And of course all these leftists are like, she's a girl boss, that kind of thing. And I, I remember thinking, I'm, I'm not one of you. Like, this is, I didn't want any of this out there. This is, I was dragged into this kicking and screaming, like, I, I don't want, want this to be that. And that night I wore this, it's like spaghetti strap outfit to do the news. And it was kind of that moment you know what I mean? Where I was like, I'm gonna sauce it up and remind you all that I'm not on your team. I'm gonna bring the heat as a woman who's not looking to be out here in pinstripes, like, grabbing people by the balls and castrating them. Right. That I. You can do it all. You can be a news anchor. You can do. Take yourself seriously, but you can also be sort of a saucy person who men find attractive and who you want to find you attractive. Right. Because you're a regular American woman. So I kind of relate to what you're saying.
- [42:10]
Michael Knowles
Yes. You know, look, I'm all for modesty, truly. I didn't even see the dress at first. My producer said to me. He said, michael, why aren't you leading the show and closing the show with Sydney Sweeney? I know ratings would be through the roof. I said, what? I saw some headline. I didn't pay attention. And then later on, it popped up in my Twitter feed, and I said, all right, got to get custody. My eyes. Hold on. Let's see. Go to custody of my office. Hold on. I got to go to some other news website or something. But I thought in a culture that is so confused as ours, in a culture that doesn't know the difference between men and women, it is a relatively conservative thing for a woman to really be a woman. And really, it's true. Show, everyone.
- [42:49]
Megyn Kelly
We're going to talk about that sound bite that you mentioned of Sydney Sweeney a little later. But we talked with Andrew a bit about his faith and his conversion from Judaism to Christianity. And you. So I. Of course, I know you're deeply religious, that you're a Catholic. You're a devout Catholic. And I did not know until I was actually preparing for tonight that you, like, doubled down on your faith. You found, like, your true conservative Christian faith, your devotion to Catholicism, until you're at Yale, that's not a thing. Who goes to Yale and becomes more of a devout Catholic?
- [43:24]
Michael Knowles
I think they're going to rescind my diploma when they find out that was the consequence of it. Yeah, I was. You know, I always prefer the term instead of devout Catholic, I always prefer the term practicing Catholic because I'm going to keep on practicing until I get it right. Might take a long time. But when I was. I was cradle Catholic raised, you know, the 90s were kind of a weak time for catechesis generally. And then by the time I was 13, I was about to be confirmed. I said, I'm an atheist. Because I was a very clever little boy. And, you know, Christopher Hitchens had that posh accent, and he was just so smart. And I thought I was smarter than everybody. So I said, I'm an atheist. And my mother looks at me, she says, she said, you're going through a phase. You should receive this sacrament of confirmation. You're going to come out of it. You'll regret it if you don't. I said, okay, all right, whatever. I trusted my mother. She was right. I was an atheist for about practically an atheist for 10 years. That started to weaken when I was 18. I get to Yale, as you mentioned, and most people are atheists, and I don't know, a ton of people are much smarter than me, many of whom are atheists. However, I noticed the most intelligent people were not atheists. They were theists. They were in varying degrees of practicing religion. And they presented me with intellectual arguments for the existence of God. They're pretty good. The ontological argument. Later on, St. Thomas Aquinas, five ways. Then I found other British guys who were clever and posh to counter Christopher Hitchens, namely C.S. lewis, Owen Barfield. From there, G.K. chesterton. Only at a Megyn Kelly event, you get applause for Chesterton and Lewis. Great. I love that.
- [45:00]
Megyn Kelly
Thank you.
- [45:01]
Michael Knowles
Love that. And so by the time I was 23, I graduate, that was when I really reverted. I'm not a convert, but I'm a revert to the faith. And it's one of those things St. Augustine said, you know, how late have I loved you? You know, love ever ancient, ever knew. And it's kind of how you feel. You say, man, I really took the long route. You know, I talk to people who are cradle Catholic, broadly religious, and. And I said, that was the easy way. That's what you should have done. And I took the long route. But, hey, all's well that ends well. So I'll take it.
- [45:35]
Megyn Kelly
What was the conversation between you and God after Charlie?
- [45:42]
Michael Knowles
You know, I was at work and the morning that Charlie died, I was. I thought about texting him because Charlie was very good at texting and I am very bad at texting. I don't text anyone back. It's bad.
- [45:56]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, same.
- [45:57]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, I'm horrible at it. My friends, my family, very important, very important people. And anyway, I thought, ah, shoot, I owe Charlie a text. And it was a text, actually, weirdly, a little bit about religion. And then he was shot. And also, oddly enough, Charlie and I were supposed to do an event together at the University of Minneapolis 12 days after he was killed. And the last conversation we had on his show, he said, all right, Michael, I'll see you in Mogadishu. And it was a great, great observation. And so my first reaction, everyone was chattering about it on Twitter. I said, just pray for Charlie Kirk, you know, and. But what I can know, I don't want to tell tales out of school, but I think a lot of this has become public, you know, one, everyone knows Charlie was deeply religious. Charlie was wearing a St. Michael medal, actually, while when he was killed. I opened the speech that we were supposed to have together with the prayer to St. Michael. And you don't believe it. I was talking to my wife, who saw. Happily, I didn't see the video, but she did. And she said, you know, it's a strange thing, because I looked at it, and I said, there's no way he's alive. And then at the same moment, I said, there's no way he can be dead. He's Charlie Kirk. You know, the guy would have been president, and everyone knows it. And this is a very difficult thing because it's all in God's providence, you know, And Charlie knows that better than anyone. And, you know, Charlie had certain faith in Christ. However, there's this impulse afterward to say, well, we're Christians. We shouldn't be sad. Charlie's with his savior. We shouldn't be sad. You know, we should be happy. This is a very modern aspect of Christianity to say, you know, don't grieve, don't mourn. Just be happy. Clappy. And that ain't my kind of religion.
- [47:42]
Ben Shapiro
I don't know.
- [47:43]
Michael Knowles
Maybe I'm a little too traditional. But it is deeply sad, and we should grieve and we should mourn, and it's a great injustice, and we should be indignant. I mentioned Thomas Aquinas earlier. He says it is a defect not to be angry in the face of grave injustice, and we should be absolutely furious about it. We should also have trust in God. We should also have hope as a theological virtue. We should also pray for Charlie and his entire family. But we should be really shocked and mourn. And it was a national trauma as much as it was a personal one. I know a lot of people were grieving. I thought, man, am I grieving because we were friends, and that was part of it. I would meet grown men on the street, and they would be crying, and they never met Charlie, ever. It was a national trauma. It was a political trauma compounded by a second political trauma, which is when the Democrats celebrated it and we should be furious and we should reassert some order to conduce to the common good.
- [48:35]
Megyn Kelly
Yes.
- [48:35]
Michael Knowles
As a national wake up call.
- [48:38]
Megyn Kelly
Amen. Michael Knowles, thank you.
- [48:41]
Michael Knowles
Thank you. Megan. Thank you to all of you. Appreciate it. Thank you.
- [48:47]
Megyn Kelly
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- [49:53]
Michael Knowles
We all take good care of the things that matter.
- [49:56]
Megyn Kelly
Our homes, our pets, our cars. Are you doing the same for your brain?
- [50:01]
Ben Shapiro
Acting early to protect brain health may.
- [50:03]
Michael Knowles
Help reduce the risk of dementia from.
- [50:05]
Megyn Kelly
Conditions like Alzheimer's disease. Studies have found that up to 45% of dementia cases may be prevented or delayed. By managing risk factors, you can change.
- [50:15]
Ben Shapiro
Make brain health health a priority.
- [50:17]
Megyn Kelly
Ask your doctor about your risk factors and for a cognitive assessment. Learn more @brain health matters.com AI agents.
- [50:24]
Ben Shapiro
Are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes.
- [50:32]
Michael Knowles
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- [50:51]
Ben Shapiro
B R-I K.com.
- [50:55]
Megyn Kelly
It'S finally here. All right, let's get this party started. Megyn Kelly live on tour across America. I was like, we have to go. And then after what happened to Charlie, I'm like, we definitely have to go.
- [51:06]
Michael Knowles
The best way to honor Charlie's legacy is to you.
- [51:09]
Ben Shapiro
Be out here to be unafraid, to not back down.
- [51:13]
Michael Knowles
Stand firmly. Do not waver on the truth.
- [51:16]
Megyn Kelly
Next stop, White Plains, Jacksonville, Miami and Atlanta. So go get your tickets right now. Before they sell out. Megan Kelly.com presented by Y Refi and SiriusXM. Well, you may have heard of my next guest. Let me tell. I'm just gonna steal a couple minutes to talk about Ben Shapiro. So I first got to know Ben when I think he was 10, he looked 10. And I was on the air at Fox and he started coming on and he was obviously so smart, right? But he was so young. And you were kind of like, are people gonna take him seriously? Like, he's so young, it's like. But all you needed to do is spend two minutes with Ben Shapiro to realize, oh, people are gonna take him seriously. Yeah, we're good. We don't have to worry about that. I quickly fell in love with this guy and his political commentary and started putting him on more and more and more and more and more. And in the ratings game, which is cable news, you can see how somebody does, like, do they rate? And you can see minute by minute, does the audience go up when he's on? Does it go down when he's on? Does it hold steady? And we'll take either go up or hold steady, but if it goes down a lot, then you never see them again. And every time Ben was on, you could see it skyrocket because people were learning something. He's got the gift of gab. I mean, he's completely articulate and can make his points without any stuttering, without any ums and ahs, without any hesitation. But he's always substantive, right? And you always learn something. Agree, disagree, doesn't matter. You learn something from Ben Shapiro because he's always done his homework, right? You never think, oh God, that guy's gonna come out with empty handed. He's got that big brain. He's got the legendary iq. It can be very intimidating, you know, talking to him at first. But I'm proud to tell you I'm now one of the very few Americans who listens to Ben shapiro show on 2.0. It's not easy to do. You can listen to the Megyn Kelly show on 2.0 or the Ben Shapiro Show. Megyn Kelly, fine. Ben Shapiro. No, you have to be an expert. So we became friends over those years. And then of course, I left Fox. I went to NBC and everybody knows what happened there. So there I was, sitting on my couch, feeling sorry for myself, licking my wounds, thinking my career is destroyed. Literally everybody's calling me a racist. Nobody wants to hire me. I'm a joke in the industry. I've gone from like the top of My game to someone everybody is laughing at and treating with scorn. And who reached out to me, who actually reached out, sent me a text and said, we need to talk. Ben Shapiro. He saw I was down, he saw I was hurting. And instead of what most of us do, honestly, what I do too often and just kind of say like, oh, that's sad, move on, he actually reached out and said, I want to help you and you need to get off that couch. He didn't have to do it. He. I mean, Ben, his life was great. His show was completely crushing it. The Daily Wire was on fire. Like, he was busy, man did not have to take two minutes to think about me. And it wasn't like I had done him any extraordinary favors at Fox. He was a star. He was brilliant. Anybody could have seen that I wasn't some special, you know, spotter of talent. So he said, mk, you need to come out here to the Daily Wire in California, where they were at the time, now they're in Nashville and see what we're doing and see whether you think you could see yourself doing something like this. And he wasn't like, you must work for the Daily Wire. I want to make money off of you. I think you're commodity. I could buy into the Daily Wire. He was like, you need to do this and the country needs you to do this. So I did. I flew out there, which was a big step for me because I was really just stress eating at home most days, and showed me all around. And not only did he show me all around the Daily Wire and show me exactly how he was doing a show and how one could do a show, but, like, completely. He was like, here are our financials. What do you want to know about us? Like, here's exactly how it. Here's what this costs. Here's what the advertising is. Here's how you could do it. This is how much it would cost you. Like, it was amazingly transparent on somebody who, like, he didn't have to do any of this. It was like the amount of trust that he put into me, having me out there and showing me, it was like blown away by it. And I left the Daily Wire that day and Ben saying, this is what I want to do. He inspired me fully and completely. And I didn't totally know exactly what my next move was or how I'd get into it or who I'd hire or from where I would do it or any of that. But that was, I think, December of 19, and I had made the decision that that would Be my next move. And then we got into the fall or the spring of 2020, and Covid hit. Spent that in Montana with my family. And then George Floyda Palooza hit. And By September of 2020, the Megyn Kelly show was born. Sometimes we joke with Glad Glenn Greenwald, who's one of the most frequent guests on the Megyn Kelly show, that he's the godfather of the Megyn Kelly show because he comes on so often that. That's true. But I think you could make a fair case that Ben Shapiro is the father of the Megyn Kelly show, and I will be forever grateful to him. You know, he's a total juggernaut. He's. His show, it's in a league of one. He's reinvented this entire industry. And Lane, he started the Daily Wire, which gave us geniuses like Clavin Knowles, Matt Walsh, who we love, who just talked to two days ago, and many, many others. And I have nothing but unending love and respect for Ben Shapiro. Take a look at this, and we'll bring him out. Ben Shapiro, go to hell.
- [56:43]
Andrew Klavan
What's happening? Today's college game. What explains the fear? Ben SH Shapiro went on, made a speech. Some students who didn't even go to the speech have made appointments with a therapist to deal with the trauma.
- [56:57]
Megyn Kelly
That was the crowd that greeted conservative writer Ben Shapiro as he was attempting to give a speech.
- [57:02]
Ben Shapiro
And I was told by the police officers, if you do that, there could actually be a riot. Look at me. I mean, like, do I look like a physical threat to anybody? It's not rude to say that someone who is biologically a male is a male. Facts to just don't care about your feelings.
- [57:13]
Megyn Kelly
You cut that out now or you'll.
- [57:15]
Ben Shapiro
Go home in an ambulance. That seems mildly inappropriate for a political discussion. No, I know you're gonna criticize the meritocracy as an outgrowth of white supremacy. Then you're going to have to tear down the system that you've succeeded in, because you have merit. Joe Biden. There's only one thing the guy is good for, and that is being wheeled out in front of a parade that's already moving. He's like, oh, look what?
- [57:34]
Megyn Kelly
I'm here.
- [57:35]
Ben Shapiro
I'm here. And Ben Shapiro.
- [57:37]
Andrew Klavan
Ben Shapiro.
- [57:39]
Ben Shapiro
Really enjoy our work. Benjamin. You used to love Ron Sanctus. I think you're gonna love us a lot more. I think you're gonna really enjoy being with us. Okay, Mr. President. Appreciate that. Fox News just called it. It's over, gang. This election is done. It's toast. You can put it in the fridge. It's finished. The greatest political comeback in American history. Un effing believable. I mean, this is a huge victory. A huge victory against the woke left that needed to take it directly in the table. Well, folks, I just got back from the theaters seeing Barbie. This movie is not just a piece of. This movie is a flaming piece of dog piled at the top, an entire dumpster on fire. It is one of the worst movies I've ever seen.
- [58:17]
Megyn Kelly
And you said, I may have a desire to sleep with many women, but I do not.
- [58:21]
Ben Shapiro
I agree with me.
- [58:22]
Michael Knowles
Yes, that's true.
- [58:23]
Ben Shapiro
Congratulations on your. Yeah. Charlie's voice is not silent. We're gonna pick up that blood stained microphone. We're. Charlie left it. And to those who would intimidate, who would seek to stop us, who would seek to end free discussion and kill people who speak freely, we are not going to stop. And I have two words. You.
- [58:57]
Megyn Kelly
Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Yes. The man, the myth, the legend, the one and only. Thank you so much for being here.
- [59:08]
Ben Shapiro
Thanks for having me. Megan.
- [59:09]
Megyn Kelly
How about that walk down memory lane?
- [59:11]
Ben Shapiro
That was. That was great, right?
- [59:14]
Megyn Kelly
I am so happy you're here. This worked out so well. You've been in the news lately.
- [59:19]
Ben Shapiro
Yes.
- [59:19]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. You seen that?
- [59:21]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah, a little bit.
- [59:22]
Megyn Kelly
How's your last year been?
- [59:24]
Ben Shapiro
The last year has been interesting, obviously. Huge victory for President Trump, which was the big news of last year. All the transformative policies that he's put into place, that's been wonderful. I've had the opportunity to see him do some of these historic things in person. I happened to be in Israel for the Jewish holidays when he was giving that historic speech at the Israeli parliament, which was unbelievable. I mean, it was truly tremendous. And then obviously you figure after election things are going to cool down and then things don't cool down. And so, you know, it's been busy, obviously since Charlie's murder, which, you know, I think all of us reacted in precisely the same way. The security threats went up dramatically. I've had obviously personal security since I believe, 2017, maybe 2016. I've had about 10 years of personal security. The last six years has been 24, seven security on me as well as on my whole four children. And that's been accelerated even more so in the aftermath of Charlie's murder. So that's. On a personal level, that's been not fun. The good news is that the security guys are very sweet and my kids get along with them great. And they have lightsaber fights with them, and they think that this is kind of normal, but it isn't normal. And I wish that the country would go back to normal, but it seems like it may be a while.
- [60:43]
Megyn Kelly
You've been dealing with this for a long time, and I've seen it personally. You know, I mean, I've seen you surrounded by teams of security, and I heard you say, and I mentioned this last night, that if, God forbid, something happened to most of the Daily Wire guys, we would know exactly who did it immediately. If something happened to you, God forbid, it would be like an Agatha Christie mystery. There's so many possibilities because you're loathed by the far left and you're loathed by what we used to, and maybe still do call the alt right. And I remember we used to talk about this on the Kelly file because some people called you alt right and you would explain. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not alt right. I'm loathed by alt right. So what is alt right and why do they loathe you?
- [61:22]
Ben Shapiro
So there is a group of people in the United States who are rooted in an idea of grievance against the system that they believe has put them underfoot. And those people believe that essentially they are underfoot because of their white status, and thus they must take revenge on anybody who. Who is disproportionately benefiting from the system that tends to, in their own minds, be Jews. And you see this mostly refracted right now through a young man named Nick Fuentes. He's 27 years old. He is the leader of a movement called the Groipers. I don't know if any of you are familiar with this, but he says and believes truly awful things. I mean, truly awful things, not just about Jews. I mean, he has said, for example, that the Vice President of the United States, there's a direct quote I believe is a fat, gay race traitor married to a jeet. That's a direct quote about the vice.
- [62:13]
Megyn Kelly
President that he named his son Vivek.
- [62:14]
Ben Shapiro
Yes. He also has suggested and spent years trying to destroy Charlie Kirk's organization. Charlie, in texts that have now been revealed, called him Vermin for exactly this reason and had banned him and his followers from TPUSA because he believed that Nick Fuentes and the gripers and white supremacy didn't belong as part of the conservative movement. And so the alt right is became this. Or they are two sides of the same coin, or they're parts of the same sort of broad movement. And unfortunately, I think that they've gained a foothold in sort of the Internet subsystem. I don't think they have a foothold in mainstream America at all. And I think one of the mistakes that people make is to think that the Internet is real life. The Internet is absolutely not real life. And the first thing people need to do is turn off X, which is poisoning brains and making people think that not true things. It's basically like war games. They think the missiles are real. The missiles are not real. The things happening on X are not a reflection of real life, but they can bleed over to real life if enough people take them seriously.
- [63:15]
Megyn Kelly
So you and I have talked about Nick Fuentes many times over the years in our many appearances together. And that's how I knew about him, because he was saying absolutely terrible things about you. And I am going to show a video, please forgive me, of one of my first introductions to this guy, Nick Fuentes, and what he was saying about Ben. This is a video of him showing himself playing Grand Theft Auto, like a video game where you shoot people. And he's pretending that this character in the video is Ben. Let's watch.
- [64:05]
Ben Shapiro
That's funny.
- [64:16]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, that's funny.
- [64:18]
Andrew Klavan
Yeah.
- [64:18]
Michael Knowles
That makes me laugh and laugh.
- [64:21]
Ben Shapiro
That's a funny one.
- [64:24]
Michael Knowles
What a chance encounter that was.
- [64:26]
Ben Shapiro
I think I just saw Ben Shapiro.
- [64:30]
Megyn Kelly
And it goes on. It goes on.
- [64:32]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, I would hate for people to believe that the Nick Fuentes sort of. My problems with Nick Fuentes are about me because they really are not. They are about the fact that Nick. Folks, Fuentes is a truly horrifying person who believes truly horrifying things. Again, there is a reason why Charlie Crook despised him. There is a reason why every mainstream political commentator has been highly critical of him. It's the reason why these are not arguments. He's not a person who's making arguments. He's a Hitler loving troll. And I say that advisedly. He literally says on his show that he loves Adolf Hitler. Okay, so the reason this has come up in recent weeks is because Tucker, your guest last night, decided to have him on last week and to completely gloss him, in my opinion. And you can make up your own opinion as to what you think Tucker was doing during that interview. But I know what it looks like when Tucker Carlson decides to be an aggressive interviewer, when he decides to ask difficult questions of people. Tucker is eminently capable of doing that. He did it to Ted Cruz quite thoroughly. But he decided for any number of reasons. And I try not to attribute Motivations to people, that he was going to treat Fuentes with kid gloves, that he was going to not ask him about any of the things that I've just mentioned, literally any of them. And to essentially normalize Fuentes act as a sort of gateway drug or as a. What I've called Tucker as an ideological launderer of bad ideas over the last couple of years. And this is not coming from a place of animus for Tucker on a personal level. I've known Tucker for a very long time, Tucker, and whenever we're in personal situations, we get along great. I think I saw that Tucker talked about how we were at Charlie's memorial in the Vice president's box together, and he's correct. I mean, we saw each other, we said hello, we talked. It was very friendly and all of that. And it's also true that a couple of days after Charlie's murder, he reached out and he called me and he said, listen, I know that we're at odds. And, you know, we've been at odds for a number of reasons, mainly political. I mean, again, on a personal level, I'd go fishing with Tucker anytime. The real question is, for me, I got into this business because I care about the ideas and I care about the ideals. And so when you are determining what is conservatism, what should the future of America look like, and where do you draw the lines? Those are the questions that I need to answer in my job. For me, my business is really not about friendship. I have lots of friends, people who I love with whom I disagree on politics and don't believe they should be leaders in the conservative movement for. For example. And that, to me, is the real question. In any case, Tucker reached out. He said, you know, we've had a bunch of disagreements, and, you know what if we could put those aside and align toward the DSA in particular, is what he mentioned. And I said, you know, Tucker, you're totally right. Let's do that. That would be great. In fact, the tsa, the dsa.
- [67:16]
Megyn Kelly
Dsa.
- [67:17]
Ben Shapiro
The Democratic Socialist.
- [67:18]
Megyn Kelly
Why the tsa? How did that bring you together?
- [67:20]
Ben Shapiro
The Democratic Socialist America. And the reason why. Yes, and the reason that I'm taking out my phone.
- [67:24]
Megyn Kelly
He has the only divides people is because.
- [67:26]
Ben Shapiro
Yes, the reason I'm taking out my phone is because it's. I don't just, you know, I like to evidence what I'm saying with, you know, actual evidence. So I texted him, and the text exchange was very nice. I mean, here's what the actual text exchange went like after the call. So I texted him and I said, thanks so much for calling. It means the world. It truly does. Should we do a show together talking about the DSA threat, Democratic Socialist America threat, and orienting in the same direction? Happy to do whatever it takes to bring everyone back together for the fight that matters. And Tucker then wrote back, thanks, man. I appreciate it. I'm going to spend the next week or two thinking about how to be most effective. The country is clearly on the brink. I reached out repeatedly after that. Nothing happened. And again, I thought it was a good idea at the time. I think I felt differently after I saw what he did with Nick Fuentes and after he proceeded, in my opinion, to spend the subsequent weeks doing literally nothing to fight the left. Again, I say this with sadness because Tucker used to be, I think, a deeply important part of the conservative push to win. The number of times that Tucker Carlson has mentioned zoran Mandani since October 5th on his show is once. And it was in the context of Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson talking about the appeal of Zoran Mandani, just by way of contrast. Not because I'm a perfect representative here, but because you've talked about Zoram Hamzani a lot. A lot of us have. Since October 5, I did 17 separate shows on Zoram Hamdani, including four in the last week before the election. Because when you're orienting against the left, you really should orient against the left.
- [69:00]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, so a lot in there, I think, just to be clear. So the breakdown from the detente after Charlie was him interviewing Fuentes. Like, was that the next thing that happened that led to the blow up?
- [69:17]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, yes. I mean, I had not. I had not spoken a word there.
- [69:20]
Megyn Kelly
Wasn'T that he attacked you like you had. No, I don't.
- [69:23]
Ben Shapiro
I don't care about people.
- [69:23]
Megyn Kelly
It was that interview.
- [69:24]
Ben Shapiro
And I don't think Tucker cares about people attacking him. I mean, again, we're professionals. We're in a business where people comment on what we say publicly. You know, again, this is why, you know, I think you and I differ on our angle with regard to, for example, Candace Owens. I think that what Candace Owens is doing right now is evil. It is evil what she is doing right now. Okay. And I say that again.
- [69:45]
Megyn Kelly
But what. Because I didn't opine on whether it's evil or not. But my position is it's really none of my business.
- [69:52]
Ben Shapiro
Why is it. But I have a question. Why is it none of your business? I mean, you comment on these things for A living.
- [69:56]
Megyn Kelly
I'm not mother of the Internet.
- [69:57]
Ben Shapiro
No, but if this were on the left and somebody were accusing Charlie Kirk of his wife having murdered him, I assume that you would be talking about it.
- [70:05]
Megyn Kelly
Is that what Candace is accusing Erica of? Yes, of murdering her own husband.
- [70:09]
Ben Shapiro
She's accusing TPUSA insiders and other members of the right wing, including Seth Dillon, of being involved in the murder of Charlie Kirk. Yes.
- [70:17]
Megyn Kelly
Okay. Like I said, I don't take in that content, which is an honest statement. I don't have time to watch.
- [70:22]
Ben Shapiro
I believe you. I believe you. But the point that I'm making is that what I. What I understand in our business, I think it's important. Listen, friendship should not trump.
- [70:30]
Megyn Kelly
We don't even know each other.
- [70:31]
Ben Shapiro
I understand, but even with Tucker, friendship should not trump our manifest requirement to speak out when people do and say things that are both detrimental to conservatism and morally wrong.
- [70:42]
Megyn Kelly
So I don't totally disagree, but I think the way of handling that, at least for me, is much different. So I saw things go south between you and Tucker, at least from my vantage point. When you disagreed on Israel, that was obvious. And he was. Well, let me just make my point. So he was saying things that were critical of Israel and our policy towards Israel. And then you did one show where you did what I thought you should have done if you disagreed with him, which clearly you did, which is say what you believe and what you think is factual, and, like, educate your audience on what you think are the real facts and give them the evidence for it. But you named him, and it felt like an attack. And that to me, was the beginning of the end where he was like, now it's on. Because he felt personally attacked by you as opposed to just challenging his idea. I think you named him and you kind of diminished him. And, you know, he's an 800 pound gorilla, and if you mess with a gorilla, he's gonna fight. And to me, that's where it started to go south. And because I remember that day being like, oh, shit, I don't want to see this.
- [71:40]
Ben Shapiro
But here's the thing. I would urge everybody to go back and listen to the show that you're referring to, where I criticize Tucker's ideas, not Tucker as a person. Tucker then responded by claiming that I do not love America. That is a direct quote. That I do not love America because I was spending too much time covering the October 7th attacks and then proceeded in January to then say that I wanted his children to die in a foreign war. Okay. So those are a different rhetorical. No, it is not. I'm sorry, it's not. An attack on motivation is a very different thing from an attack on an idea.
- [72:09]
Megyn Kelly
His point was that you were sounding like a neocon and he's upset with anybody who wants us to. To get too involved in Israel's conflict because he feels it endangers American children.
- [72:17]
Ben Shapiro
That is it. Is it that. Okay, the idea that, number one, the idea that I want the United States to be directly involved in Israel's conflict is not true.
- [72:26]
Megyn Kelly
No, I know that, Ben.
- [72:27]
Ben Shapiro
I've been urging Israel to get off of American aid for literally as long as I have been active in politics.
- [72:32]
Megyn Kelly
But I'm making sure what his point was.
- [72:33]
Ben Shapiro
No, no, but that, but my point is that that's not his point. And again, none of this.
- [72:37]
Megyn Kelly
So we disagree.
- [72:38]
Ben Shapiro
Well, no, none. We disagree on the interpretation of what Tucker has been doing for the past two years. And it's very difficult for me to believe that Tucker is merely anti Israel when, for example, today in his newsletter, I mean, I can directly quote it if you'd like. In his newsletter today, he claimed that Zoran Mamdani is not anti Semitic. This was his newsletter today, this morning. I mean, I'm happy to read the text. It's a little extraordinary because again, it is. It is kind of shocking stuff. So here is what Tucker Carlson wrote in his newsletter today or what his newsletter says under his name. He said, is the incoming mayor a fan of Israel? Does he want America to fight its wars? Not particularly. But a Jew hater, That's a different conversation. We've never seen anything to suggest he falls into that ugly camp. If we're talking about fighting the left, defending Zoram Hamdani, who literally said that Hamas, he has no opinion whether Hamas should disarm. Who posed alongside the 1993 World Trade center unindicted co conspirator who would not disown, globalize the intifada, who suggested that whenever there is in a New York police department boot on somebody's neck, it's an IDF lacing the strings to suggest that that's not anti Semitic in any way. No way.
- [73:46]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, but.
- [73:47]
Ben Shapiro
Or when he.
- [73:47]
Megyn Kelly
When he. I'm going to give you a defense of Tucker here. And I don't need to defend Tucker.
- [73:51]
Ben Shapiro
Because I'm not Tucker.
- [73:53]
Megyn Kelly
I think in general, because I know him and I listen to him and I understand generally where he's coming from. He would say his problems are with Israel and he would say that that shot that Mamdani laid against the IDF is a shot against the IDF and Israel and how he thinks pro war, not against Jews. And I think. And I think all I can say.
- [74:12]
Ben Shapiro
Is, Carl, Satan finds himself in complete alignment with Zoran Mandani. It is very difficult for me to believe that he does not agree with.
- [74:19]
Megyn Kelly
Zoran Mandani is in a place right now of the same place that Charlie was getting into toward the end of his life, the cha. The same place that some people had tried to drive me, which is you're under withering non stop accusations of being something you know you're not, but from. From some people who you love and who you've been protecting, at least in my case, in Charlie's case, for two years, who you've been completely defensive of. And Charlie and I both felt. And I, because we talked about this on my show, like what's happening here? There's why are we. They dropping charges of anti Semitism against us when we love Jews and we're both open Semites, We're Zionists.
- [74:56]
Ben Shapiro
So, Megan, you may notice I'm just talking about me here. Are there people who are overzealous? Sure. Have I ever attacked you?
- [75:02]
Megyn Kelly
No. No, never.
- [75:03]
Ben Shapiro
Did I ever attack Charlie publicly about any of this?
- [75:05]
Megyn Kelly
No.
- [75:05]
Ben Shapiro
No, no, no.
- [75:05]
Megyn Kelly
Okay.
- [75:05]
Ben Shapiro
He and I had disagreements behind the scenes.
- [75:07]
Megyn Kelly
Did I ever feel like you get defensive? And I think I was feeling defensive.
- [75:10]
Ben Shapiro
By the way I waited to attack Tucker until he glossed Nick Fuentes, who is. That has nothing to do with Israel. Nick Fuentes hates Jews.
- [75:18]
Megyn Kelly
I'm not saying. Tucker, you didn't have a right to go after him. I mean, I think you did what you thought was right and you felt. And he mentioned you a few times in his interview with Nick Fuentes.
- [75:26]
Ben Shapiro
He did. But again, I don't think it's about that. Because if he had not mentioned me in that interview with Nick Fuentes, I still would have said something about it. Because again, glossing people who are white supremacists is bad electorally. On a pragmatic level, a right wing that embraces its own fringes will end up in the same position as a left wing that has embraced.
- [75:42]
Megyn Kelly
So that's why I want to get into it. Embrace.
- [75:46]
Ben Shapiro
Yes.
- [75:46]
Megyn Kelly
So now having spoken to Tucker, I actually see that interviewer very differently. And I did listen to the interview and I knew what Nick Fontes was and I think he did show himself.
- [75:55]
Ben Shapiro
To be who he is.
- [75:55]
Megyn Kelly
It wasn't his most vile stuff, but you got the feel for what this guy was. But I really think Tucker was talking to him, Ben, to put like a bumper on this guy. Because what Tucker was urging him the whole time was to understand that collective punishment for any one group of people. People is wrong. It's deeply immoral and it's anti Christian, which this guy is supposed to be. And reminding him of how deeply immoral that is, that you should not be looking at a group of people, whomever it is. The left does it to everyone, whites mostly, but like this collective shame, white men in particular. And there's a group of people like Nick Fontes that does it to groups of Jews. And he was making the case throughout the whole interview in the way that Tucker does. He's not like you or me. He's not like pointed and cross examining.
- [76:43]
Ben Shapiro
Not true. And was made fundamentally untrue. Senator Ted Cruz, whether that is.
- [76:48]
Megyn Kelly
He gave it to Ted Cruz because Ted Cruz is a politician.
- [76:51]
Ben Shapiro
That's. Oh, yeah, hold up. So only politicians get cross examined.
- [76:54]
Megyn Kelly
You don't. Well, it depends on the person.
- [76:56]
Ben Shapiro
Tucker. Tucker would never cross examine a person who is not a politician. That's his rule.
- [76:59]
Megyn Kelly
Tucker has excoriated public figures who purport to speak for us and represent us for many years. Nick Fuentes is a podcaster. Civilian.
- [77:10]
Ben Shapiro
Okay, I just have a question. We all in our industry are constantly excoriating people who are in our industry. It happens all the time, every single day. Okay, okay. Again, we're talking about. Again, we can agree to disagree on your interpretation of what Tucker was doing there. I think everybody should watch and determine for themselves, themselves what they think Tucker was doing in that interview. And I urge you to watch it back to back with the Ted Cruz interview to determine whether you think that that was an aggressive Tucker Carlson interview. And you can judge my opinion.
- [77:39]
Megyn Kelly
I didn't say it was aggressive and I don't think he would say it was aggressive. And I think his point was this guy, first of all, he's become a behemoth, Sadly. He's got 5 million viewers on Rumble. He's got a million followers on X. I agree. This is all before Tucker Carlson. And he was platformed. Hate that verb. But he was platformed by Patrick Beth David and he went on Dave Smith show and he went on another big show. He's been getting more and more purchase in the political ecosphere, including right wing.
- [78:04]
Ben Shapiro
And I think that's.
- [78:04]
Megyn Kelly
Patrick David has a huge show. I know, but Patrick, did you know that Patrick bet David had him on? Did his life blow up?
- [78:10]
Ben Shapiro
Patrick McDavid did a significantly more aggressive interview with Nick Fuentes than Tucker did.
- [78:14]
Megyn Kelly
Okay? But my point is simply he's growing, he's growing in stature. And so what I saw Tucker do was not whitewash his, his ideas, but try to put bumpers up on the guy. I know Tucker well and I think that was his approach. And the way, the way, if you want to put a bumper up on Nick Fuentes, is it helpful to say, you're fucking vile, you're an anti Semite? No, it isn't.
- [78:35]
Ben Shapiro
Yes.
- [78:35]
Megyn Kelly
That doesn't put up.
- [78:36]
Ben Shapiro
Yes.
- [78:36]
Megyn Kelly
No, it isn't. That makes the audience feel good because you have hand to hand combat, but it doesn't help change that guy's view or his extreme. His extremeness at all.
- [78:44]
Ben Shapiro
Okay, I'll tell you what doesn't change Nick Fuentes, his view. Tucker Carlson with his arm around Nick Fuentes grinning for the camera while Nick Fuentes tweets out America first and then triumphantly goes on the air the next day to explain that he has essentially used Tucker Carlson as a vehicle for manipulating other people. Okay, that's what Nick Fuentes is saying, not me. Nick Fuentes, okay, And Nick Fuentes. And by the way, I will again say that Tucker Carlson, when you say to somebody in an interview, do you condemn anti Semitism? And then the person says, sure, which is what Nick Fuentes said. He said, I'm not an anti Semit, which is blatantly untrue. A responsible journalist would then follow up demonstrating that that is false. Tucker did not do that. He allowed him to get away with that. And then he allowed him to talk about, quote, unquote, organized Jewry, followed by Nick Fuentes being treated to a disquisition by Tucker Carlson about why Christian Zionists, of all human beings on earth, are the people that he hates the most.
- [79:39]
Megyn Kelly
He took that back.
- [79:40]
Ben Shapiro
You can't take that back. How do you take that back?
- [79:43]
Megyn Kelly
He did. How he went. He said.
- [79:46]
Ben Shapiro
And then he should. Then you should explain why it was wrong. He should explain how Christian Zionists are actually wonderful people.
- [79:49]
Megyn Kelly
Tucker is very quick to self flagellate and he went on with Dave Smith the next day, the next week, whatever, Monday, Tuesday, this week, and said that was stupid. I didn't mean that. He said, I'm angry at people like Lindsey Graham. I'm angry at people like Ted Cruz. Cruz. Because he thinks they run headfirst in these conflicts and they don't think about what's going to happen to America.
- [80:09]
Ben Shapiro
Wait, hold up. If we're talking about firing inside the tent, whatever. Lindsey Graham Okay. And I'm not a huge Lindsey Graham fan. He votes with the President of the United States 100% of the time. And Tucker spent yesterday's show excoriating him as a psychosexual death worshipper. Does that sound like firing outside the tent? Again, these are the questions.
- [80:25]
Megyn Kelly
I'm not offended.
- [80:26]
Ben Shapiro
Again, the questions that I'm asking here. I'm not asking you to do anything, Megan.
- [80:30]
Megyn Kelly
No, I know.
- [80:30]
Ben Shapiro
Okay?
- [80:31]
Megyn Kelly
I know. I'm not. Our beef is not with each other.
- [80:32]
Ben Shapiro
I'm not. Okay. When I draw a line with regard to what I believe Tucker Carlson is doing to the conservative movement and what he is fomenting, that is because that is my. And everyone can make their own decision as to whether they think that I am right or whether I am wrong and where they choose to draw the line with regard to the conservative movement, the question for me is always whether somebody's statements are forwarding moral values that I think are worthwhile. I did not get into this business for the money or for the. The clicks. You didn't either.
- [80:57]
Megyn Kelly
Neither did he.
- [80:58]
Ben Shapiro
What was that?
- [80:59]
Megyn Kelly
Neither did he.
- [81:00]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, he may not have. That's fine. I certainly did not. I'm only gonna speak for myself. And what that means for me is that if I see somebody breach basic moral values by having on a Nazi, and in my own view. You can take your own view. In my own view, gloss the Nazi, then I'm going to speak out about that. And I'm gonna point out that there is a long pattern of him ideologically laundering terrible ideas over the course of the last two years, ranging from traveling to Russia to sniff the bread and explain why the Russian regime is actually wonderful to saying last week that the Venezuelan regime of Nicolas Maduro is actually not that bad because they're being attacked by, in his words, globo homo.
- [81:42]
Megyn Kelly
Tucker's made the point. I'm not here to be Tucker's defender, but he's made the point that Maduro is culturally conservative.
- [81:47]
Ben Shapiro
Who gives a shit? The guy's a communist dictator. Everyone in his country is eating dog. He's shipping fentanyl to the United States to kill Americans. Why don't we give a shit whether he's. Whether he's anti LGBTQ rights? This is the number one thing about Nicolas Maduro. You know, far down the list, you have to get before you can get to anything remotely recommendable about Nicholas Maduro.
- [82:09]
Megyn Kelly
I did ask him yesterday about the criticism that he didn't give Nick Fuentes a hard time. Right. He didn't bring up the stuff that we're talking about. No, he didn't. And here's what he said. It seemed to think that we've way overstated the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. He's ripped on poor Usha Vance in the most offensive terms, which I mean, so what do you say to those people? Say, why don't you, why didn't you raise any of that?
- [82:37]
Ben Shapiro
You know, do your own interview the way that you want to do it. You're not my editor. Buzz off. I mean, I don't know. You want to go yell at Nick Fuentes, I'll give you a cell, call him and go sit and yell at him and feel virtuous or whatever. That's up to you. I agree with him, but I agree. No, I agree. I agree with him. I agree with him. He did the interview that he wanted to do for a reason.
- [82:59]
Megyn Kelly
Here's the other thing I want to say. We all have different approaches in this industry, you know, and there's been a of lot, lot that people in podcasting have said that I disagree with, including many of the names that we've discussed today.
- [83:10]
Ben Shapiro
And we disagree, too. I mean, yes, of course.
- [83:12]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, yes, rarely, but sometimes we do. But my own personal approach, generally when it's someone who's on my. What I consider to be my side.
- [83:21]
Ben Shapiro
The side of, and this is the entire question, is whether I consider Tucker Carlson to be on my side. I got it.
- [83:25]
Megyn Kelly
I got it. But I would just say, just for the record, my own general approach, and this is my audience here, so they know is in general, I will take on a position and I will make clear how I feel. For example, I've been asked, and some of my audience is mad at me for this, but what do you think happened to Charlie Kirk? And I believe a man named Tyler Robinson shot and killed Charlie Kirk. I believe he was influenced by trans tifa radical trans activists, that he fell in with a lunatic that goes by Lance Twiggs, that that guy was extremely radical and that he and possibly a band of others convince this guy that violence was the answer. And I believe others knew about it before Charlie was killed. That's what I believe. And until you can show me cold, hard proof that it was something other than that, that's what I'm going with. And I don't want to do or say anything that will jeopardize the FBI investigation and prosecution of that guy to make sure he spends the rest of his life either behind bars or on the wrong end of A firing squad. But that's so I feel like I can make these points without attacking people who generally are on my side in fighting the deranged leftists who are killing us.
- [84:30]
Ben Shapiro
But my point is so two points. One, you have to define your side. You do. There. There are limits to the side.
- [84:36]
Megyn Kelly
All the people who don't want to kill others based on their political ideology.
- [84:39]
Ben Shapiro
I. So I would agree with that, except for the fact that as you showed, Nick Fuentes wants to kill others based on their political ideology side.
- [84:45]
Megyn Kelly
He's not with me.
- [84:46]
Ben Shapiro
My point is that Tucker treated him as. As though he was on his side.
- [84:49]
Megyn Kelly
I see it differently. I think he interview where there was a possible attempt to put a bumper up on us.
- [84:55]
Ben Shapiro
I think that we don't have to go over ground that we've already covered. We can agree to disagree on that and everyone can make up their own mind. After going and watching the interview yourself.
- [85:01]
Megyn Kelly
Why don't we do the Larry David? I disagree to disagree. By the way, is it gloss or glaze?
- [85:09]
Ben Shapiro
I've heard it both ways. Gloss like a glossy.
- [85:11]
Megyn Kelly
Like you have kids who do the brain rot talk. That's what they call it. Green rot. Those terms like, he's got riz. I don't know. I. I've got two teenagers and a 12 year old.
- [85:19]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, listen, my original verbiage is that Tucker was fluffing him. So I guess that was more. More G rated.
- [85:24]
Megyn Kelly
That's a porn reference, right?
- [85:26]
Ben Shapiro
It is.
- [85:26]
Megyn Kelly
It's a porn reference. Yeah. He's not afraid to say it. So let me ask you this. There's some risk to both of you in this. You know, it's like Godzilla and King Kong having this battle. There's some risk to both of you because you both have very large shows, very large audiences, and there's probably some overlap, or at least there would have been two years ago. So is this in any way. Did you feel any reluctance to, you know, have this?
- [85:49]
Ben Shapiro
The only. Okay, so I was reluctant because again, he and I had texted about the idea of orienting in the same direction. And then I decided that we were in fact, not oriented in the same direction. Okay, but am I worried about, you know, the career risks? No, because to me, there's sort of a laugher curve when it comes to influence. So famously, when it comes to economics and the Laffer curve, the idea is that if you tax everybody at 0%, you receive 0 tax revenue. If you tax everybody at 100%, you also receive zero tax revenue because everyone stops working. I Think there's an influence curve as well, because I thought about this a lot before.
- [86:20]
Megyn Kelly
This is so Ben, who goes to the Laffer curve to bring home the point of this is so smart. But then he knows that we don't know what he's talking about, so he defines it.
- [86:26]
Ben Shapiro
So if you have no influence, if you have no influence but you speak out a lot, then you have no influence. If you have tons of influence and you don't speak out when it's appropriate, you also really have no influence. And so for me, the question becomes, when is it important to speak out? And, Megan, you and I have been talking behind the scenes about many of these same issues for a very long time. And so you know that I actually, you've known me for a very long time. I'm pretty good at conflict, but I don't like conflict. I really don't.
- [86:54]
Megyn Kelly
You've been trying to put this one behind you guys for a long time.
- [86:57]
Ben Shapiro
A very, very long time. Consistently, for a very long time. In fact, for two years, I mean, I can read older text messages. After that initial blow up where Tucker was suggesting I have dual loyalty and all of this, I literally texted him and I said, tucker, we seem to have gotten crossways somehow. I would love for you to come on my show. I'd be happy to come on your show. We'll do it. And he proceeded to ghost me for two years.
- [87:20]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, so he was not in a headspace. I didn't talk to him about this, but my assumption is he was not in the right headspace.
- [87:26]
Ben Shapiro
To for two years is a long time to be not in the right headspace.
- [87:29]
Megyn Kelly
But you know, the two years we've had.
- [87:30]
Ben Shapiro
Right.
- [87:30]
Megyn Kelly
Look at the two years. It's all related to Israel. It's all related to Israel.
- [87:34]
Ben Shapiro
I do not agree. I disagree. I fundamentally disagree.
- [87:38]
Megyn Kelly
He was in picking fights with you before the Israeli conflict.
- [87:40]
Ben Shapiro
It wasn't about picking fights over Israel. Okay, again, you're trying to turn it into he picked a fight with me or I picked a fight with him. For me, the question is it blew.
- [87:48]
Megyn Kelly
Up over the past two years.
- [87:49]
Ben Shapiro
I don't think that it's a coincidence that obviously anti Semitism simultaneously blew up with the war of October 7th.
- [87:56]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, that's true. So has, you know, conflict and controversy involving feelings over Israel.
- [88:01]
Ben Shapiro
Of course. And now the war has been over for several weeks and Tucker Carlson is writing newsletters about how Zoramdani is not an anti Semite. What does that have to do with Israel?
- [88:10]
Megyn Kelly
I think that's a Hangover from being called an anti Semite at every turn and feeling angry about it.
- [88:14]
Ben Shapiro
You know what? I'm a little tired of the excuse that if you are called something enough, that justifies all of the subsequent activity. I've been called every goddamn name in the book. Every name in the book. And I have not.
- [88:25]
Megyn Kelly
Wait.
- [88:25]
Ben Shapiro
But I have not shifted my positions because people call me names. That is a childish thing to do.
- [88:30]
Megyn Kelly
Ben, with all due respect, pardon the language, you did not have an entire country call you a Nazi for the past week. I think he's in a defensive place right now on charges of.
- [88:39]
Ben Shapiro
I'm not interested in his psychotherapy.
- [88:41]
Michael Knowles
Megan.
- [88:41]
Megyn Kelly
I am. I love him. As I love you.
- [88:43]
Ben Shapiro
Well, you know what? And that's why. That's why I started this off by saying you're empathetic and you're a wonderful person and you're a good friend. And I think that, you know, there's a reason why in the medical industry you don't operate on your friends or your relatives.
- [88:58]
Megyn Kelly
But you're telling me I need to.
- [89:00]
Ben Shapiro
I'm not telling you no. I'm trying not to. No, Megan, actually, I haven't said that one time here. I said that's why I'm doing it.
- [89:05]
Megyn Kelly
I know, but there are many people.
- [89:06]
Ben Shapiro
And you're urging me not to. And I'm saying that that is not a move that I can make because Tucker has already closed the door to the idea that we are on the same side.
- [89:15]
Megyn Kelly
But he hasn't closed the door to detente. Let me show you another sound bite. Let me just show you one more. But is there any way that you and Ben Shapiro could. Can actually find your way to Daytone?
- [89:29]
Ben Shapiro
I'm not against Ben Shapiro. He did like a 40 minute thing yesterday, calling me dangerous and all this stuff. It's like I didn't watch it because why? But I got a lot of texts about it and it's like, I'm not. I don't think Ben Shapiro is driving a lot of this stuff. I don't consider him, like, the world's greatest force for evil. I don't feel that way at all. I don't actually think about him ever. So I don't want to have a war with Ben Shapiro. I don't know if. Does he really think that me doing an interview in which I exist, that anti Semitism is wrong to one of the lead purveyors of anti Semitism, that that somehow makes me a Nazi? Like, what is the argument here?
- [90:04]
Megyn Kelly
I'm asking him. Tomorrow night?
- [90:05]
Michael Knowles
No, but I don't even understand what the argument is.
- [90:08]
Ben Shapiro
All I know is that the right, and I've been on the right since before Ben was born, is acting like the left in such an amazingly precise way that I'm like, what the hell is going on? I agree with Tucker that the right is in fact acting like the left by again, massaging its radicals in the name of some sort of faux unity.
- [90:29]
Megyn Kelly
Does that sound detanty?
- [90:32]
Ben Shapiro
Because again, I'm not. Again, trying to turn this personal is a mistake.
- [90:36]
Megyn Kelly
I know, but can it happen? Can it can if, like that person who sent those texts from your end, is that person still willing to sit with him and work something out when.
- [90:46]
Ben Shapiro
Tucker changes his positions, then sure. If he does not change his positions, then no. Because I'm not in politics to be friends with people. I have children, I have a wife, I have a dog, I have an extended family, and I have friends I.
- [90:58]
Megyn Kelly
Want to be friends with you either, Ben. It's about uniting the right so that we can fight the right enemy on the left. And Tucker is of the right. And Tucker has been fighting for a lot of these ideas for a long time, and he's changed this country fundamentally for me.
- [91:10]
Ben Shapiro
I'm not saying Tucker has never been a wonderful advocate for anything on the right because I don't think that's true. I think in the past, he was a great advocate for many things on the right, particularly on the immigration issue, for sure. I'm saying that's not what he is doing now. I do not think he is advocating for right wing positions. He is not conservative than I am by any stretch of the imagination on any possible issue. And when it comes to the question as to whether he is actually making the conservative movement more likely to lose by attacking inside the tent significantly more often than anyone else on the right while simultaneously massaging. Again, watch the interview. Massaging the nation's leading white supremacist. I'm sorry, there's no detente with those positions. Forget about the person. There's no detent with those positions.
- [91:51]
Megyn Kelly
Fair enough. Fair enough. Was this a good discussion? I mean, honestly, I give you tons of credit for coming and doing this. It's such a crazy thing for me that I had him booked last night and I had you booked tonight and then you guys wound up in this. But, I mean, part of me loves that, you know, I can talk to both of you, but part of me hates this because I really, I don't like it.
- [92:13]
Ben Shapiro
I hate it, too. This idea that I'M like seeking conflict again. I'm not. I know it's idea driven. I know if the ideas are bad, I am against them.
- [92:23]
Megyn Kelly
I get it.
- [92:23]
Ben Shapiro
If the ideas are good, I am for them. End of story.
- [92:26]
Megyn Kelly
I get it. And he would say the same, right? He feels very much America first and that, you know, that we need to prioritize what's happening in our country and Israel's not on that list and so on. You, you guys can listen to that interview if you want to hear Tucker's full thoughts. It aired today. You probably heard it. Okay, we're going to take 20 seconds and surprise, we're bringing Andrew and Michael back out here. It's the one time of year that Birch Gold Group gives away free gold with every qualifying purchase. That's right for Black Friday. When you convert an existing IRA or 401k in whole or in part into a tax sheltered IRA and gold, birch Gold will send free gold to your home for every $20,000 purchased. Gold started this year around $2,600 an ounce. By October it was over $4,000 an ounce. Why global uncertainty 2025 has been defined by trade wars, Central banks are pulling from the US Dollar as the global reserve currency and military tension continues to build. Gold thrives in times of uncertainty and if you are looking to diversify your savings, Birch Gold can help you. Plus now through November 30th get free gold with a qualifying purchased just text MK to the number 989898 to claim your eligibility and for a free info kit on Gold. But your opportunity for free Gold with purchase will end on November 30th, so don't wait. Text MK to the number 989-898 for full details, message and data rates may apply.
- [94:03]
Ben Shapiro
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Michael Knowles
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Ben Shapiro
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Michael Knowles
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Megyn Kelly
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Ben Shapiro
Visit lifelock.com Specialoffer terms apply.
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Megyn Kelly
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- [95:49]
Michael Knowles
Go to SiriusXM.com MKShow to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com MKShow and get three months free offer details apply.
- [96:06]
Megyn Kelly
We'll have a group discussion starting now.
- [96:09]
Michael Knowles
So, so what I miss you gave.
- [96:14]
Ben Shapiro
Us all the easy questions.
- [96:15]
Andrew Klavan
I like that.
- [96:16]
Megyn Kelly
We had a lot of fun. All right, let's actually have fun. Let's, let's kick it off with the Sydney Sweeney moment, not the dress, sorry, but with the moment. An extraordinary moment she had today where she was asked quite a question by GQ magazine about that infamous or famous, depending on your point of view, American Eagle jeans ad and how she handled it, the criticism of the content, which was basically that maybe specifically in this political climate, like white people shouldn't joke about genetic superiority. That was kind of like the criticism, broadly speaking. And since you are talking about this, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about that specifically. I think that when I, I have an issue that I want to speak.
- [97:07]
Ben Shapiro
About, people will hear.
- [97:10]
Megyn Kelly
Like a boss.
- [97:12]
Andrew Klavan
That was actually sexier than the dress.
- [97:15]
Megyn Kelly
What an extraordinary moment. Right?
- [97:17]
Ben Shapiro
It's great.
- [97:18]
Megyn Kelly
That's watershed stuff up there.
- [97:20]
Michael Knowles
It's the new meme. You know, there's a meme on the Internet of like Anakin Skywalker talking to his wife and then really he sort of doubles down and it's this like dark right wing. That's the new version of that. She's the new spokesman for the American right. And I'm willing to go so far as to say right now I'm formally endorsing a ticket of Vance Sweeney 2028, the greatest message discipline in the Republican Party.
- [97:44]
Megyn Kelly
The message discipline. Exactly. But what a thing to hold your own and say, like, no, I won't be making news for you today on that.
- [97:51]
Ben Shapiro
It's so great. And she understands the game, right? Which that the lady was after clicks and if she comments in any way, it'll make a huge headline. She's like, you know, no gas. No gas for the car. And now where are you going to go?
- [98:02]
Megyn Kelly
That plus that Jennifer Lawrence moment, right? Drew is like, no, they're starting to get it.
- [98:07]
Andrew Klavan
Oh, listen, Hollywood is out of work. When I say that. I mean they're all out of work. You could make a movie about white supremacy and they would show up because they are out of work. The business, this is true. The business has shut down. Only the. Only the Christian people are making movies. A couple of movie stars who can still make movies. The business has closed. And, you know, the unions are enforcing racial quotas on the films. And you cannot win an Oscar if you don't have a certain racial quota of the people involved. And all of that is kind of just coming apart at the seams. It's kind of delightful.
- [98:39]
Megyn Kelly
It is. It's wonderful. Well, this is not least because this is the Democrats bench. Like, this is their A team to get them elected, right? This is who they are bring out. This is who they parade out now. And more and more they're going to be getting a no because if they can hurt the career of Taylor Swift, they can absolutely hurt anybody else. And by they, I mean us. So they're learning that we have real buying power and that we can hurt you if you get too political. And we will. Like, we don't use it that often because we're conservatives and we kind of let people live and let live. But like when they try to push Kamala Harris into the White House, we stand up and we fight. We find our spine. So I feel so encouraged by that. I don't feel encouraged at all about anything that happened this week, but I feel encouraged by that.
- [99:15]
Ben Shapiro
And there was really no blowback to her either, which is sort of the impressive thing. So you remember back in the 90s, Michael Jordan famously was asked about why he didn't start making very loud political statements. And he said, because Republicans wear sneakers, too. And everyone went nuts on him. This was considered terrible at the time. And then of course, the NBA decided that LeBron James was the great face because he was so politically so much better than Michael Jordan because he was political. She said this and. And I think all of us cheered and the entire Left kind of backed into a corner. They really did.
- [99:41]
Megyn Kelly
They're afraid. They're like, oh, shit.
- [99:42]
Ben Shapiro
I think that's right.
- [99:43]
Megyn Kelly
She can't be pulled around.
- [99:44]
Andrew Klavan
But, you know, you said something earlier, Megan, that people have to show up for the people who make rebel films and rebel books and all that stuff. There was a film on Apple TV with Tom Hanks where he was a submarine, a guy fighting Nazi submarines. All he does through the entire movie is read the Bible and kill Nazis. And I thought we should. Everybody should be watching. We should be subscribing to Apple.
- [100:08]
Ben Shapiro
Graham, by the way.
- [100:09]
Michael Knowles
Terrific.
- [100:09]
Andrew Klavan
Terrific. Yeah.
- [100:11]
Megyn Kelly
Let's talk about 2028 and Team Blue. Who do we like? Who do we think is actually going to pull this thing out?
- [100:18]
Michael Knowles
Gavin, I guess, right?
- [100:21]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah.
- [100:21]
Michael Knowles
I get like the leading candidate.
- [100:23]
Megyn Kelly
You had to put your money on it.
- [100:24]
Michael Knowles
If I. If you forced me today, I would say no. It's going to be a Bill Clinton, like, figure in 92. It's going to be someone who maybe we don't know yet, because no one's over that 25% threshold. Probably it is American Psycho. Governor Bateman, you know, Newsom over there, probably, he's the leading candidate. The problem for him, though, is he doesn't know who he is. So he's a very far left mayor. He was doing gay marriages in San FRANCISCO in, like, 2003, long before that was legal. He is very, very left wing. Then he tries to pivot and be the new Clinton Democrat. So he tries to be friends with Charlie Kirk, he tries to be friends with Steve Bannon. He's going to cut this middle ground. That doesn't work. Then his press team is tweeting threats at Stephen Miller and they're going far, far left shortly after Charlie was murdered. So he doesn't know where he stands. And it's just a party problem. The party problem is, you know, the future of the Democrat Party. Per Kamala Harris. There's Jasmine Crockett and Zoran Mamdani, all these far left communists. And he understands that no one is going to win a primary as a white guy who's a moderate, who's friends with Steve Bannon. And no one's going to win a general if she's Jasmine Crockett, who sometimes can speak the English language and sometimes apparently can't.
- [101:34]
Megyn Kelly
But I saw you say on your show, this is why you believe Gavin Newsom is actually going to run. And he is going to run as the next black president. And the reason Michael predicts that this is because of this Sound bite. We got one more sound bite for you that comes from an interview he did with two former NBA players last week.
- [101:52]
Michael Knowles
But also, you know, it was also about paying the bills, man. And it was just like hustling and. And so I was out there kind of raising myself, turning on the tv.
- [102:03]
Andrew Klavan
Started, you know, just getting obsessed, you.
- [102:06]
Michael Knowles
Know, sitting there with the, you know, the Wonder Bread and five stacks of.
- [102:11]
Megyn Kelly
Like, the whites story.
- [102:15]
Michael Knowles
Come on, macaroni and cheese. Every day in the backyard, just bouncing the basketball, throwing the ball against the wall until the ball is just, like, fraying, man, and you're entertaining yourself. That's it. Whole thing.
- [102:29]
Andrew Klavan
So just.
- [102:29]
Megyn Kelly
And.
- [102:30]
Michael Knowles
And then, you know, then this student.
- [102:32]
Andrew Klavan
That was shitty student in the back.
- [102:33]
Michael Knowles
With his head down all of a sudden started throwing the baseball a little faster than everyone else and started, you know, make a few free throws because I was sitting there practicing 500 of them every damn night. And in high school, I look up in the stands, my dad's back up there, okay. And it's like, man. And then he's bringing his friends and. And you're captain of the team, and you're like, geez, you know, and it just saved me and it got me into college.
- [102:58]
Andrew Klavan
He's got my vote.
- [103:00]
Megyn Kelly
Michael. Michael said he, he was born a poor black child.
- [103:05]
Michael Knowles
I. I was waiting for him. And that, you know, listen, I'll tell you, fellas, smoking blunts was a daily routine since 13. Chubby fell on the scene.
- [103:15]
Ben Shapiro
He is such an unbelievable, unbelievable lizard person. Like, when you watch him, you can almost see the ridges under his skin kind of moving. Yes. And you're waiting for, like, him to unzip and just the. A dinosaur pops out.
- [103:28]
Megyn Kelly
I was actually in a working class lie. It's such a lie.
- [103:32]
Ben Shapiro
It's unbelievable.
- [103:33]
Michael Knowles
He said, you know, he goes, well, my pops went out to get milk, you know, he didn't come back. And finally my dad's came to run. His dad was the financial advisor to the billionaire Getty family. And he was a judge. He was a judge. There was this other. My dad worked two jobs. Yeah, you were. You're a financial advisor and a judge.
- [103:49]
Megyn Kelly
He was featured in a magazine spread as a teenager with a caption, Children, children of the rich as like Wonder Bread and Mac and cheese.
- [103:59]
Ben Shapiro
You know, I'm going to go a little bit off the board in terms of 20, 28 picks for the Dems. I think everybody is underestimating AOC.
- [104:04]
Andrew Klavan
Yeah, me too.
- [104:05]
Ben Shapiro
I do. Underestimating AOC.
- [104:07]
Megyn Kelly
Really?
- [104:07]
Ben Shapiro
Yes. Because if I look at the the order of the Democratic primaries, it goes Iowa, super progressive, New Hampshire, super progressive, and you get to South Carolina. And that was sort of the firewall for, quote, unquote, Normie Dems last time. Right. Because Bernie won both the first two states, and then. And then the entire Democratic Party decided to deprive him of the nomination by all getting together and James Clyburn saying, it's gotta be the dead guy. And so they all mobilized behind Biden. I think that it's harder to do that with AOC because what she represents is Bernie, but ethnically diverse, and that is not a horrifying pitch inside the Democratic primary electorate, actually.
- [104:44]
Andrew Klavan
And her.
- [104:44]
Ben Shapiro
Hot.
- [104:44]
Andrew Klavan
She's cute.
- [104:45]
Ben Shapiro
Get a D. She's rude.
- [104:47]
Andrew Klavan
I'm sorry.
- [104:48]
Ben Shapiro
Stop it.
- [104:48]
Andrew Klavan
She is. She is.
- [104:50]
Ben Shapiro
Stop it, Drew.
- [104:51]
Andrew Klavan
She. She.
- [104:52]
Ben Shapiro
No.
- [104:52]
Andrew Klavan
Yes.
- [104:53]
Ben Shapiro
No, Drew. No.
- [104:54]
Megyn Kelly
Stop.
- [104:54]
Michael Knowles
She. She's no Sydney Sweeney. And I think we can all agree.
- [104:58]
Andrew Klavan
But she's got what Sydney Sweeney's got.
- [105:00]
Megyn Kelly
My own personal, personal opinion is you can't be like that constantly angry all the time and, like, really penetrate the.
- [105:07]
Ben Shapiro
Language, are, like, half out of your sky socket.
- [105:10]
Andrew Klavan
But she's a good campaigner. She's good on.
- [105:13]
Megyn Kelly
All right, so would you put money on aoc? Like, would she see your front runner?
- [105:16]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah, I'm looking at the polls right now. I think that she is. If she's not, I think right now it's Newsom and her. But I think Newsom fades. I do. He's got. He's got the same feeling about. About him that, actually I kind of felt about a guy who I really like, Governor DeSantis, in the early primary, going in the Republican Party in 2024. I love Governor DeSantis, but in 2023, the idea was that he was definitely gonna be the nominee in 2024. And then, of course, Donald Trump just swamped him. Right. And swamped everybody. And so I could see a world where the Newsome moment kind of fades. Like, he feels like he's peaking early. In all these races, there's somebody who kind of peaks early and like, oh, man. Remember that Tim Pawlenzi guy? Remember, there's, like, a hot moment where everyone's like, oh, Tim, Paul Lindsay. But come on, you remember.
- [105:57]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, but what about, like, an outsider, like Stephen A.
- [106:01]
Ben Shapiro
Okay, first of all, I really like Stephen A. As a human.
- [106:03]
Megyn Kelly
I know Stephen A.
- [106:03]
Ben Shapiro
Is great. We all like him, but a Democrat. And. And so Stephen A.
- [106:08]
Megyn Kelly
He's moderate, he's diverse. He's from the outside. He's very good on camera.
- [106:13]
Ben Shapiro
That'd Be fun. I would love it.
- [106:15]
Andrew Klavan
Love.
- [106:15]
Ben Shapiro
Would love.
- [106:18]
Megyn Kelly
What do you mean? It's a run as a Democrat. We could do no better on Team Blue on two. Like to get a normie running as a Democrat where, like, our worst case scenario is. STEPHEN A. I feel like that's pretty good.
- [106:27]
Ben Shapiro
I totally agree. Totally agree with this.
- [106:29]
Andrew Klavan
Dance is good. Be the next president, no matter what happens. Vance and Rubio.
- [106:34]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, so here's a question for you.
- [106:35]
Andrew Klavan
Unbeatable. Unbeatable.
- [106:36]
Megyn Kelly
Here's a question. If it's Vance, how does it happen? Like, do they do a convention? Does Trump, like, pass a baton?
- [106:44]
Ben Shapiro
Well, I think that. I mean, the hot rumor is that Rubio is going to sign on as Vance's VP right after the midterms, basically. Right. And then that makes a lot of sort of political sense for Marco. Right. There are a lot of people who are trying to say that is this Secretary of State should run against Vance. If you're just doing a game theory thing here, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Rubio to do that. If he runs against Vance and he loses in the primaries.
- [107:03]
Megyn Kelly
First we did the Laffer curve, and now we're doing the game theory. Okay, keep going.
- [107:07]
Ben Shapiro
If you're. If you're evaluating his options, what you would figure is he runs against Vance, he loses, and now he's toast. He runs against Vance, and then Vance doesn't pick him for vp, and then Vance becomes president, he's toast. The only way that works out for him is somehow if he finishes second, but he's better off then even if Vance picks him VP and then loses. So that's definitely Rubio's best option. So I think they probably run combined. I think they foreclose primaries. I think no primaries.
- [107:28]
Megyn Kelly
But, like, if they. If they sort of come out and say, like, we'd love to be president, vice president, and this is looking at, how is that going to resolve it? Right. There are other very ambitious Republicans in the Trump administration who might have a problem with it.
- [107:42]
Andrew Klavan
There are.
- [107:42]
Michael Knowles
There are plenty of people who want to be president. You know, like every United States senator, every governor, every, you know, everyone, basically. But who's got the juice to do it? You know, I mean, you make the point, Ben, that maybe Newsom is kind of like DeSantis was in 24. And I see it, but the difference is there was Trump. And really, I know there was a primary in 2024. DeSantis is great. I love DeSantis. I never really thought for even two seconds that there was seriously A primary. Trump was a fait accompli. He was the man. He was the one they were prosecuting. He was the one they were raiding, his hat. He was the man, you know, and they jilted him. And he's just this world historic figure. There's nothing even close to that on the left right now. And so as a result, Trump remains the man. He's basically endorsed that ticket of Vance Rubio, and I think it is. Look, you know, there are plenty of people who want to repeal the 22nd Amendment, name Donald to be, you know, Donaldus Magnus, emperor. I have it passed Baron Octavian Augustus Trump, and, you know, so on and so forth. Assuming that doesn't happen, Trump can crown Vance and Rubio, and I think that's the end of the story.
- [108:48]
Megyn Kelly
All right, all right. But now I have a question for you. Okay, I have another question for you, because we are what we're in November of 2025. So it's a long time before the actual race kicks in. And in between now and then, we might have the tariff scheme collapse, depending on how the Supreme Court rules. It was ambiguous yesterday. It wasn't perfectly clear two days ago that it's going to go Trump's way. We might have eliminated the filibuster, which will be extremely controversial. And you're in favor of it.
- [109:20]
Michael Knowles
The time has come. I would say. If you ask me if the time has come, you have to do it. And actually the proof of it. Look, I'm like a big defender of the filibuster and standards and norms and slowing things down. I've loved the filibuster, but politics is applying eternal principles to changing circumstances. The Democrats will do it, there is no question. The only reason they didn't last time is because of Manchin and cinema. They're gone. These are people who celebrated when the most prominent proponent of civil debate in America was assassinated in 4K. These people will stop at nothing. And you get a real advantage if you're the party to do it first. They've been creeping toward it for years. It pains me to say it. I. I kind of like the filibuster in principle. Do it nuclear option. To quote George W. Bush, nuclear, get rid of the filibuster.
- [110:04]
Ben Shapiro
I have sort of a happy medium counter proposal, and it was actually put forward by our friend Jeremy Boring. I thought it was quite brilliant. What he suggested is that what Republicans should do. He said this a year ago. What Republicans should do is they should say to Democrats, let's do a constitutional amendment to Enshrine the filibuster permanently and if you won't do it, then we'll nuke it. I like that because that's like, okay, either we're all on board or nobody's on board. We're not going to play this kind of take them on faith game, which I think is quite smart.
- [110:28]
Megyn Kelly
I am terrified about the loss of minority rights in the Senate because I agree with you. Our team is going to be there soon enough and we are going to be terrified at what those Dems are going to do to us.
- [110:38]
Andrew Klavan
It does give a big advantage to having a president who is of a different party than the Senate, which the public will catch on to eventually so he can start to veto bills. It's going to mean, you know, a lot more of, you know, people getting stuck, things getting stuck in Congress, which I'm totally in favor of. The less they can do.
- [110:57]
Megyn Kelly
Well, that's the thing. I mean like that was built in by the founders. They didn't want things to move quickly through the Senate. They wanted conflict. They wanted it to take forever. They wanted it to be really hard to pass legislation. They thought it would lead to strong arming and trying to get bipartisan, you know, compromises done. And we just don't do that anymore. I think it really is related to Citizens United where like money talks and that's what everybody answers to. Who got them elected and what do they want? They don't compromise anymore. So maybe you're right. Maybe different circumstances require different measures. But I really do not favor getting rid of the filibuster. What do you guys think? Do you want to get rid of the filibuster or no? How many who do not want to do it?
- [111:34]
Michael Knowles
These are very wise, good looking people. They understand this is nuke it.
- [111:42]
Megyn Kelly
They got a lot of that. The Marxists will destroy us.
- [111:44]
Michael Knowles
No paying for Congress, don't pay Congress through the shutdown. I heard out there it makes perfect forever maybe.
- [111:51]
Megyn Kelly
So what is the biggest threat to a JD Vance Marco Rubio ticket actually winning?
- [111:57]
Ben Shapiro
What was the biggest, what's the biggest threat?
- [111:59]
Megyn Kelly
To the max.
- [111:59]
Ben Shapiro
The biggest threat is an economic downturn. It is not even close. So I, I'm, I'm very, very uneasy about the state of the economy right now. In fact, I think the best thing that could happen for the President is likely the Supreme Court striking down the tariffs. If that were to happen, then what you will actually see is some reduction in prices. You will see an explosion in investment not in the top of the market right now.
- [112:20]
Megyn Kelly
So I don't know why you're mixed.
- [112:21]
Ben Shapiro
I'm not sure why. Right now, virtually all gains in the stock market are going to Magnificent Seven, those top seven stocks. If you take out the gains from the Magnificent Seven, the stock market has been flat for several years. At this point. Everyone in the investment community is pouring money into AI and I don't think it's going to pay off the way they think it's going to pay off. I think AI is a bubble.
- [112:39]
Andrew Klavan
I think that Trump is doing something really visionary, and I'm not sure he's doing it according to a philosophy or just instinctively, but I think he is rearranging the American economy to be able to face off with China, which is going to be huge in about three years, if not shorter. The problem is, as he's doing that, he's not paying attention to this one thing that always is a president's layer, which is inflation, and he has not paid attention to that. And so the economy is hard to read.
- [113:07]
Megyn Kelly
These numbers are bad on it.
- [113:08]
Andrew Klavan
Yeah.
- [113:09]
Megyn Kelly
And it's really bad.
- [113:09]
Andrew Klavan
So he's getting blamed for Biden inflation, basically. And that's what I think. Had it played into a little bit in that election, though. Not as much as people say, but I think that that's the thing. Will he turn at some point and say, we've got to bring down prices.
- [113:22]
Megyn Kelly
We.
- [113:22]
Andrew Klavan
We've got to stop it because inflation is not high.
- [113:24]
Megyn Kelly
He has to at least look like that's his number one priority. And right now he doesn't look like that. That's why people are punishing him and all of us with people like Abigail Spamberger. I call her Melba. She's Melba Toast. I told her, how do they elect Melba in Virginia, of all places? And not to get us started on Jay Jones. Right. I mean, let's end it on this. And you can use my mic to answer it. But like, where do we. Where do we stand now when we. We've actually seen here. I'll take it. Yeah. I don't know why that's not working. Why. Where do we stand now when two months after Charlie's assassinated, the Democrats have elected somebody who's calling for assassinations of Republicans and their children? Like, how. How do we ever get along with these people? Do we try to get along with these people? Do we have dinners with these people? Do we try to compromise with these people? Do we just steamroll these people and do everything in our power to get Republicans elected here?
- [114:19]
Ben Shapiro
So, you know, I think that we should define who these people are. Because obviously, I don't think every single Democrat is a person who wants to slit our throats. I mean, I think we all have extended family members who are Democrats. I'm sure we all have friends who we work with who have voted the other way. But there are certainly an enormous number of people. You're just too close to me, dude. Move away.
- [114:37]
Michael Knowles
Get closer to you. I want to get closer.
- [114:40]
Ben Shapiro
I know you're like, claving with aoc. I don't know what's going on right.
- [114:43]
Megyn Kelly
Now.
- [114:50]
Ben Shapiro
But it seems to me that when we talk about they. One of the big obstacles to the possibility of a comedy in politics of people getting along is being too broad about who we're labeling. There for sure is a segment of democrats who absolutely 100% celebrated Charlie Kirk's murder. We all saw it. We all know who they were. That's absolutely true. I don't think every single person who voted for Jay Jones was celebratory about his text. In the same way that I think that people, when they vote, tend to overlook terrible things that their own side has done when they get into a binary race with another side. Again, that's not an excuse for voting for Jay Jones, who is a complete and utter piece of shit. But that is to say, I'm hesitant to malign every single person who votes in an election one way by saying that's the reason they voted for. For that specific thing. And so I think that it's incumbent on everybody to basically right and left say that people who do violence obviously are doing acts of evil, and it's evil. And honestly, before the J. Jones, before Charlie's murder, I think that you saw this bizarre moment when Luigi Mangione murdered the United Healthcare CEO, where there were a group of people on both right and left. It was almost entirely left, but there were some people on sort of the populist right even, who were saying, well, you know, healthcare really is a problem. We should understand his points. I was like, no, we should. Absolutely not. We absolutely should not. And these permission structures for violence really need to end.
- [116:10]
Michael Knowles
Yeah, I certainly agree. I know it's fashionable to say we need to hear all voices and we just need a totally open marketplace of ideas. But I'm a conservative man, you know, I'm pretty traditional, and I just don't agree with that. I think that we need to get much more serious about standards and norms in the country. So when someone is threatening people, that's not protected speech. When someone's seriously inciting violence, they're all manner of speech. You're not protected. Fraud, obscenity, fighting words. And so when that happens, we need to prosecute that. That's prosecutable for a reason. I'll go further, though. I like a thriving marketplace of ideas, but you can't have a marketplace of ideas or any other thing if bandits keep shooting up the marketplace. And so, you know, we saw after Charlie was murdered, it was people who are very liberal were eight times as likely to defend political violence as people who are very conservative. Almost 30% of young liberals would justify political violence. Many, many times what you saw for young conservatives, this is not sustainable. And so the people, whether they be in Congress, whether they be on tv, whether they be that girl you went to high school with on Facebook, if they are defending and celebrating the murder of an innocent man who just wanted to talk it out, they need to be ostracized from society. They need to lose their jobs. In many cases, they need to be excluded from polite society. I'm with William F. Buckley, Jr. I love William F. Buckley, Jr. One time he was having a debate on Firing Line with a guy named Leo Chern, and Chern said, well, Mr. Buckley, I think we can all agree an open society is conducive to. To all that we want. And Buckley, in his real Buckley way, is sort of over this way. He said, I don't agree with that. He said, I want society to be considerably more closed. You know, I'm an epistemological optimist. I see no reason to defend the speech of a Nazi or a communist. And I'm with Buckley, and I think we. We ought to do it.
- [118:01]
Andrew Klavan
I. I actually think. I actually think it's free speech that's going to save us. I think the thing that happened after Charlie, it was immediately exposed. The violence of the left has been hidden and masqueraded by the press. That power is gone. They have lost that power. And as long as we can disprove what they're saying in real time, which we now can, people are going to see pretty soon who is calling for death, who's calling for murder.
- [118:28]
Michael Knowles
But aren't they going to elect Jay Jones, too?
- [118:30]
Andrew Klavan
You know, I'm not so sure about that. You know, there's so much goes into the. These local elections that I think, you know, he kind of rode to power on the. On the coattails of the governor. Yes.
- [118:42]
Megyn Kelly
You show that some 30% of liberals think political violence is appropriate in some circumstances.
- [118:50]
Andrew Klavan
Absolutely. But I think as that comes out, they're going to start losing more elections. I'm actually really. I hate to say it, but I'm actually really optimistic about what's about to happen and what's happening now. I know. I know.
- [118:59]
Megyn Kelly
You're the one. Is it because of Sydney Sweeney?
- [119:01]
Ben Shapiro
As I said many times about Clavin, as. As Clavin draws closer to the death, he sees more light.
- [119:09]
Andrew Klavan
10 minutes left. Let's hurry it up.
- [119:12]
Megyn Kelly
I gotta say this. I think, like, everybody here has really stepped up in the wake of Charlie's assassination. I've watched you guys do it, and we've done it ourselves. And that is something I feel really hopeful about. Like, everybody on our side of the aisle and all of you in showing up here tonight said f that we will not be silenced. We will not stop talking about these ideas. We'll say and double and triple down on all of our most controversial thoughts, just the way Charlie would have wanted. And I think he'd be really proud that we're all here together tonight. Thank you. Thank you, guys. So grateful.
- [119:43]
Andrew Klavan
Thanks a lot.
- [119:43]
Michael Knowles
Thank you, Megan. Thank you to all of you. Thank you.
- [119:46]
Megyn Kelly
We love you. Thank you, Jacksonville. To be continued. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda, and no fear.