Black Gloves Found Near Nancy Guthrie Home, and Mystery Man Seen with TWO Backpacks, with Phil Holloway and More | Ep. 1251

Summary

The Megyn Kelly Show — Ep. 1251

Black Gloves Found Near Nancy Guthrie Home, and Mystery Man Seen with TWO Backpacks
Date: February 12, 2026
Guests:

• Phil Holloway (legal analyst, onsite in Tucson)
• Maureen O’Connell (former FBI agent)
• Jim Fitzgerald (former FBI agent)
• James Hamilton (former FBI supervisory special agent)
• Will Geddes (security expert)

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Main Theme & Overview

This extended episode centers on the latest developments in the high-profile disappearance of Nancy Guthrie from her Arizona home. The discussion, driven by new evidence—including the discovery of a pair of black gloves near the crime scene and a mysterious video of a man with two backpacks—dives into the investigative actions, emerging leads, and speculation about the perpetrator. Expert panelists analyze law enforcement strategies, review critical evidence, and explore the potential significance of new video footage, while also reflecting on the challenges and peculiarities of the ongoing investigation.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Law Enforcement’s Unusual Crime Scene Activity

[02:50–05:11]

• Phil Holloway witnessed a tent and videography equipment at Nancy Guthrie’s home; believes they're conducting technical measurements (possibly to assess perpetrator's height for video comparison).
  • “It looks like they were doing some technical video work... maybe get precise height measurements for the perpetrator.” (Phil Holloway, 02:53)
• Tent was erected and removed quickly, which is considered odd since this detailed survey wasn't done earlier.

[05:11–06:11]

• Significant late-night law enforcement activity: Sheriff's forensic team searched a roadway near Nancy’s house at 2:15 a.m., causing questions about the urgency or secrecy of this timing.

2. The Discovery of Black Gloves

[06:11–07:46]

• Phil reports a pair (not just one) of black gloves found near the scene, similar to those the suspect was seen wearing.

  • Caution emphasized: in desert settings, gloves are common for everyday use.

• Law enforcement is analyzing the gloves for DNA and other evidence.

  • “There’s a possibility they could be connected... law enforcement believe that they have a general route of travel, and they are searching more specifically now along where that phone might have traveled, either going to or from Nancy Guthrie’s home.” (Phil Holloway, 06:27)

3. Possible Cell Phone Lead

[06:11–11:01]

• Multiple sources suggest authorities are tracking a phone allegedly carried by the perpetrator, using both cell tower pings and Wi-Fi network footprints.
• FBI activity—including searching around Annie Guthrie’s (Nancy’s daughter) home—may be driven by this phone’s digital trail.
  • “If they actually have a cell phone now associated potentially with this crime, then we may be hours away from an arrest.” (Megyn Kelly, 07:46)

4. Public Requests for Surveillance Footage

[12:31–16:23]

• Sheriff’s office asks all residents in the area to provide surveillance video from January 1 to February 2, with special interest in specific dates (Jan 11, Jan 31).
• Possible aim: To rule out suspicious vehicles, delivery drivers or others casing the neighborhood.
  • “They’re basically crowdsourcing the solution to this crime at this point.” (Megyn Kelly, 15:40)

5. Analysis of New Alleyway Video (“Double Backpack Man” aka “Pac Man”)

[21:24–29:28]

• New viral video shows a man in an alley at about 2am on Feb 1, carrying two backpacks and possibly a gun.
• Panelists debate if this is the same person as the abductor; differences in body build noted but similarities (facial hair, round head, clothing) are striking.
  • “It would be a coincidence on steroids if, in fact, somehow it's not related.” (Jim Fitzgerald, 25:48)
• Speculation that this location (five miles south) could be the abductor's home or where Guthrie was taken.
  • “Why five miles away? Is that where he lives? Is that where they’re keeping Nancy?” (Maureen O’Connell, 28:56)

6. Strategic & Behavioral Insights

[29:45–34:02]

• Detailed breakdown of the possible significance of backpacks and weaponry.
• Speculation about whether images show the perpetrator pre- or post-abduction.
• Unusual aspects of the crime scene’s handling, such as whether the abductor had an accomplice.

7. Gloves and Evidence Forensics

[38:58–44:46]

• Gloves could contain the suspect’s DNA and even fingerprints transferred from crime scene surfaces.
  • “It’s going to have the guy’s DNA on it. There’s no way it’s not going to.” (Maureen O’Connell, 41:24)
• Speedy testing is expected; can be as quick as 24–48 hours with FBI resources.

8. Focus on “Carlos” the Delivery Driver and Cell Analysis

[46:44–47:11]

• Carlos was detained because of cell phone and traffic data, not just visual ID.
• Law enforcement’s use of exigent circumstances in the investigation discussed.

9. Enhanced Crime Scene Processing

[48:46–51:00]

• Law enforcement created a height diagram and took the NEST camera bracket for further forensics, raising questions about initial scene security.

10. Further Theories: Accomplices, Misdirection, and Search Tactics

[52:56–56:16]

• Discussion about private security and family movements post-crime; the importance of systematically excluding possible suspects and following every lead.

---

Panel: James Hamilton & Will Geddes Join

[58:55–66:46]

11. Crowd-Sleuthing and Equipment Purchases

• Online sleuths identified the suspect’s backpack as an Ozark Trail hiker (sold at Walmart for ~$11); detectives following up via local store sales records.
  • “It’s wonderful, and I think it’s great...but these leads have to get run down.” (James Hamilton, 58:55)
• The perpetrator appears to have used cheap, easily available equipment (including a low-cost “Uncle Mike’s” holster), consistent with an amateur.

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12. Timeline and Video Forensics

• Discordant video timestamps examined. While dates line up for both abduction and "Pac Man" footage, analysts remain cautious due to possible mis-set cameras.
  • “We can speculate a lot...but I’m assuming the investigators themselves know exactly what this is.” (Jim Fitzgerald, 68:14)

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13. Assessing Video Gait and Physical Analysis

• FBI possesses tools and experts to analyze gait and posture, relevant for comparing "Pac Man" and "Abductor Man."
• Despite visible differences (abductor appears heavier-set), the chance of two different men in similar situations is deemed extremely low.

---

14. Investigative Priorities: Backpack Man and Rewards

• Panelists call for a significantly higher reward (suggested: $500,000) to incentivize better leads.
  • “$50,000, that’s nothing.” (James Hamilton, 80:31)

---

15. Dealing with Hoaxes and Ransom Demands

• Discussion of bogus “bitcoin tipsters,” obstruction, and scams; such leads are deprioritized in favor of more credible investigative tracks.
  • "If the FBI ran out with everything they had ... they wouldn’t be able to really find Pac Man, which is a much more credible lead than this nonsense." (James Hamilton, 86:54)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Phil Holloway on phone evidence:
  “There is a digital footprint that is left behind by the phone everywhere it goes.” [09:21]
• Maureen O’Connell on the gloves:
  “It’s going to have the guy’s DNA on it. There’s no way it’s not going to.” [41:24]
• Jim Fitzgerald on the alley video:
  “It would be a coincidence on steroids if, in fact, somehow it's not related.” [25:48]
• Megyn Kelly on community involvement:
  “They’re basically crowdsourcing the solution to this crime at this point.” [15:40]
• James Hamilton on pursuing all leads:
  “That’s a hell of a coincidence...so for me, it’s a great lead. It’s something they have to run down.” [78:11]
• On family dynamics as part of investigative focus:
  “The dynamics of a sibling who’s a multimillionaire…can sometimes that cause problems in a family? It’s possible.” [101:42]
• On “Pac Man” video facial features:
  “Look at the beard. You can see it very clearly... he’s got like the devil beard... it is a black beard.” (Megyn Kelly, [82:28])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:50 — Tent, technical video work at Nancy’s house
• 05:11 — Early morning forensic search, glove discovery discussion
• 06:11 — Black gloves evidence, cell phone tracking theory
• 12:31 — Sheriff requests mass surveillance video
• 21:24 — Discussion of "Double Backpack Man" video, analysis begins
• 41:24 — DNA value of gloves, forensic expectations
• 48:46 — Crime scene tent: height measurements, NEST camera cradle
• 58:55 — Crowd-sleuthing IDs suspect’s backpack, amateur theory
• 65:15 — In-depth panel debate: timeline, "Pac Man" video analysis
• 80:21 — Calls for higher reward to spark real leads
• 86:44 — Dismissing fraudulent tips and addressing investigative distractions
• 101:42 — Family dynamic, financial motive considerations

---

Closing Thoughts

The episode highlights the complexity, urgency, and emotion surrounding the Nancy Guthrie case. Law enforcement is under intense pressure, with expert guests affirming that all leads—credible and questionable—are being pursued. The public’s active involvement, community surveillance, and online sleuthing have added thousands of tips, straining resources but also opening potential for breakthroughs. The gloves and the "Double Backpack Man" video represent the most tangible leads, while forensic analysis and cell data remain at the investigation’s core. Throughout, the panel maintains a tone of cautious optimism, intellectual rigor, and hope for resolution.

Transcript

[Megyn Kelly]

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[James Hamilton]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[Jim Fitzgerald]

What do you got here?

[James Hamilton]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[Megyn Kelly]

Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show. We are on the road having a little President's Day holiday with the fam. But obviously we weren't going to not do the show, especially given how busy the news time has been in this case and this story have been for all of us. So we've got all of our all stars with us today and we're going to kick it off with Phil Holloway. We've had a lot of developments since yesterday. We're going to get to some of them with Phil who is live in Tucson right by Nancy Guthrie's house. If you are looking to make smarter choices for your health this year, consider Riverbend Ranch. Their steaks are not only delicious, they also contain real high quality protein that helps fuel your body. Beef is a complete protein and contains all nine essential amino acids your body needs to function. It also keeps you fuller for longer reducing cravings and snacking. But here's the key. Not all beef is created equal. The quality of the beef depends entirely on how it is raised and where it comes from. That's where Riverbend Ranch stands apart. For more than 35 years, Riverbend Ranch has been building an elite Black Angus herd, carefully selecting cattle for exceptional flavor and tenderness. All Riverbend Ranch cattle are born and raised right here in the usa. They never use growth hormones or antibiotics and the beef is processed at the ranch in their award winning USDA inspected facility. No shortcuts, no middlemen, just incredible, healthy and flavorful beef shipped directly to your home. Order [e-mail] and use the promo code Megan, for 20 bucks off your first order. Phil, good to see you. So I think the biggest thing that's happened since we last saw you is the tent this morning over the outside of Nancy Guthrie's home. Can you just tell us about that and then we'll get into the search around the gloves?

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, I had to drive over there and look at it just to see it with my own eyes. And, you know, look, it's the kind of thing that I would have expected to see to protect that scene, like, early on in the investigation. But they put it up, they went inside, and it looks like they were doing some technical video work, which I believe was be designed to maybe get precise height measurements for the perpetrator at the. That we see on the pictures and on the video. And then they. They took it down as soon as they left. So it went up. They did some work, technical work. Looks like they had some videography equipment as well. Maybe they're doing a. Like a crime scene recreation or a video of some type inside there. And then they took it down and they left. So, yeah, that was just one of the very interesting, and I would say maybe odd things, But I'm sure there's a good explanation for it once we learn what that is. But there are some other things that are going on that are, I think, a little bit peculiar.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, well, tell us what they are. What they are.

[Phil Holloway]

All right. So in the middle of the night, around 2:15 in the morning here in Tucson, the sheriff's forensic folks go out and they search this area just off the side of the roadway, very close to where I'm sitting right now, but also very close to Nancy Guthrie's home. Now, I went back out there today in the daylight, and I took my own video and I looked around, and, you know, I think that if you're looking for something. And by the way, this is not that far from where they found the gloves yesterday. But if you're looking for something, I. I would say go in the daylight, you know, rather than go out with flashlights, but.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you're telling me they went at 2:15am to the spot searching.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah.

[Phil Holloway]

And so I. It's. It's the kind of place where you would look if, like, you can pull out of Nancy's home. Right. And you just head back towards Tucson. And that could be the way that you go. It's just one of the routes of egress from there. Right. And so if you found gloves Just down the road. It makes sense to search other areas on that road. So that much I get. But I just don't understand why they do it in the dark with flashlights. Because I was able to go out there in the broad daylight and I could see very well. I mean, there was the map we're.

[Megyn Kelly]

Showing for the viewing audience. You can see Nancy's home is labeled in red at the top of our little map. And then the early a.m. search happened in the middle there. And then down below, the early Ames search is where they found those gloves yesterday, which we haven't hit exactly, but people have likely heard about it last night. The New York Post happened to be with law enforcement when they found. Now we're told it was a pair of black gloves. At first the report was it's one glove. And now it's since been confirmed they found a pair. They're not describing them as identical to what they believe the perpetrator here was wearing, but they do look similar. But everyone's quick to point out, Phil, that it's the desert and you really can't function at all in the desert if you're doing any sort of pruning or gardening or cleanup, even without gloves, or you're going to walk away pretty bloody. So we have no idea whether these gloves have any relation to the Nancy Guthrie case. But the. But the. The cops have them and they're being analyzed now. Yes.

[Phil Holloway]

Yep, that's my understanding. I think there's a possibility they could be connected. And let me explain why I haven't been able to develop a source or two of my own in the time that I've been here. Some people that I've talked to and, you know, it is believed that the perpetrator had a phone in his pocket. When you see him in those videos and in the. The photos at the doorway, at the. At the nest camera. And so a telephone, a cell phone, even if it's turned off, there's ways to. To track that. And so I believe that the searches that we've seen in the area of both Nancy's home yesterday and higher up in the foothil, this Campbell Road, which is where I was this morning, and even over by Annie Guthrie's house, I believe they are sort of following a perceived or believed route of travel, following a device. And specifically one of a neighbor over at Annie's neighborhood didn't want to be interviewed on camera, but told me that the FBI had been at her house and that one of the things they were looking for, among other things, Was a cell phone. Okay. So I'm putting all this together, and there's obviously missing pieces, but what it's starting to paint the picture of, for me at least, Is the. The law enforcement officers believe that they have a general route of travel, and they are searching more specifically now along where that phone might have traveled, either going to or from Nancy Guthrie's home.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, that. If that's true, Phil, that's huge. I mean, if they actually have a cell phone now associated potentially with this crime, then. Then we may be hours away from an arrest like that. How long would it take them to figure out who owns the cell phone?

[Phil Holloway]

Well, I. You know, that's a good question, that. I'm not a cell phone expert. I can just tell you what the sources have told me, that that's one thing the FBI was trying to find. And if it's a burner, it may. It may take. It's actually registered to somebody, then, yeah, they should have. They could very easily have a name. So the FBI just is holding these cards very close to the vest. But if there is a cell phone, and I believe there is, and I believe that's the source of a lot of these new searches, that's what's driving this. It's driving the location of where you see the FBI fanning out, searching all around, you know, Annie's house a couple of days ago. And so they put all this together, and I believe that they are working off that sort of a presumption, and they're trying to track down where that phone came and went.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you're saying your information is based on your sources, that they have identified a cell phone that they think may be attached to this crime and that they're figuring it out thanks to the cell towers. Possible. The route. The possible route that this person took on the night in question and going and search. And that's what's explaining these overnight sear. Because this isn't the first overnight search we've had. We've had a couple of these.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah. And remember, the phones talk to towers, but they also talk to every wi fi router. If you go down any neighborhood and you look on your phone and you see the list of available networks, you may not be joining those networks, but your phone is communicating with those routers. And so there is a digital footprint that is left behind by the phone Everywhere it goes. They looked, I would say, around Annie's house. I would say that was probably a. Maybe a half mile radius, if I had to guess, based on what I Saw and I went to the house and I drove all around when the FBI was out there and I was seeing these teams of agents, and there was some sheriff's deputies out there, too, blocks and blocks away. So they were literally fanning out in a large area, which would be consistent with maybe a ping off of a cell phone tower that you can't. Maybe you can't triangulate it and get a more precise location. But, you know, it seemed to be a pretty large area they were searching, including people's yards, the neighbor's yards. They were looking for any items of relevance. But.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I mean, if that explains they were looking for a phone, the activity over at Annie and Tomas's house, then that's even more interesting that. That a phone. If it's true that a phone that police think may have been associated with this crime went back into the Annie and Tomas neighborhood, that's interesting as an investigative matter. And it's also explanatory of why they keep going back over there and canvassing neighbors and so on. And so you're saying you believe that too, is based on your sourcing from, one presumes people in a position to know on them having a possible phone lead.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah. And look, the fact that, you know, you just have to look at the facts. I mean, the investigation is clearly focusing on. On two general places. The area around Nancy's home and the area around Annie's home. And so the fact that the investigation keeps taking officers to those places, you know, it doesn't take a genius to understand that that's where they think they're going to find evidence. And so they're not there on accident. They weren't out here at 2:15 in the morning by accident either. They were looking for something specific because it wasn't a large search area. They literally went to, like, this one intersection right where I was. And you showed the video. It's not a big area. So they had a specific place that they were going to. And it was for some reason. We just don't know what it was. It wasn't an accident, though.

[Megyn Kelly]

And that's two. Well, two times that they've done something in the middle of the night or in the COVID of darkness that easily could have been done during the daytime hours. And we just don't know why. Why was this search done at 2:15am why did they go to Annie and Tomas's house at. At 7:30-10:30pm when it was dark and not turn on the lights and take photographs inside? I mean, it's just all so, so bizarre to us. Okay, I want to ask you about. Now, this alert that the sheriff just sent out saying he's asking for more video. He's asking for the locals, the residents in Nancy's neighborhood, to do what exactly fell.

[Phil Holloway]

So he's. They're using people who have, I guess, the ring system. And there's a way to send out alerts asking people for video at certain dates, certain times. And some of these go back into, as I understand it, January multiple times prior to the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. So the question then, obviously is, what's special about those dates? And they're not obviously telling us the reason they're focusing on those dates. But if I had to guess, I had to hypothesize, one hypothesis would be they might be checking to see who has delivered maybe an Amazon package to that area. It's not hard to go on somebody's Amazon history and see when they've had things delivered. Right. And so they might be trying to identify individuals who were in that area, in that neighborhood making some type of delivery. We've already seen one person who's a known delivery driver that was taken in for questioning in the Middle East.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Carlos.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, poor Carlos. Well. Cause there's two communications from the sheriff's office. One is actually from the sheriff's office and one allegedly isn't. The one that just came out from the Pima County Sheriff says, we want everything for the last month from January 1st to February 2nd, we want everything you have. Scour your ring cameras and your nest cameras and let us know if you see anything suspicious whatsoever to all the people in the area. And that definitely came from the sheriff, and he just put it out. But then there was an earlier report that was circulated on the neighborhood, like ring camera watch chat, that you're referring to. And that refers to two separate dates on which the sheriff allegedly wants data. The sheriff's office is saying we didn't give that, though, that ring camera like, discussion. There's a screen grab of it that the neighbors posted one of them online. And it does show a sheriff's seal and seems to come from the Pima county sheriff, though the sheriff's office is officially denying that for some reason. It could just be that the sheriff went to, you know, people from the deputies had gone to neighbors and said, we want footage from January 11th between 9pm and midnight. Okay, that's weird, right? January 11th, as far as we know, has nothing to do with this crime, but they know more than we do. And then we also want January 31, which is the Saturday that Nancy disappeared. It's the morning, the morning before she disappeared from 9:30 in the morning to 11:00am so Nancy was alive and well then saying we believe there may have been a quote, suspicious vehicle on via Entrada around 10:00am Again, this is. These are. They style it in this separate ring camera discussion group as quote, new timeline for Nancy video requests. And they say it's from the sheriff. Again, the sheriff says that's not from him, but there's definitely an actual post suggesting that the locals believe they've been asked by the sheriff for those two dates in particular. And we know for a fact they've been asked for all 30 days prior to and around the actual disappearance. I mean, they're, they're basically crowdsourcing the solution to this crime at this point. Phil.

[Phil Holloway]

Yeah, and it's. It, it tracks with maybe a neighbor and they've been talking to all the neighbors. It tracks with a neighbor saying to somebody, the sheriff or the FBI saying that on January 31st there was maybe some suspicious vehicle in the area. And so now that the sheriff has that information given by a neighbor, the sheriff's trying to identify, you know, that vehicle and determine if in fact it was suspicious or if they can rule it out. But it seems like they're following up on specific leads that they are given by the people that they are interviewing, which are the people in that area.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's very smart because look at the cases that we know about. You know, it's like Kohberger cased that home repeatedly before he committed the crime in question and also after we know he went back the morning that he committed the crime in Idaho. It was 4 in the morning, between 4 and 4:20. And he was back there by 9, 9:30 that next morning, you know, five hours after he'd committed the murders to look at it. Maybe he realized he left behind evidence. And so the sheriff's smart to include the 36 hours after this crime for suspicious vehicles. The odds that this guy just did this cold and never once drove by the house are very small. So this makes sense to me. And hopefully some, some homeowner nearby has got it paid for the recording service on the Nest or the Ring. And he's got it. Phil, thank you so much for traveling out to Tucson and all your good reporting this week. Really appreciate it.

[Phil Holloway]

Oh, you bet. Happy to be here anytime. And we'll be discussing this on mk.

[Megyn Kelly]

Good. Yes, on MK True Crime. And we will be tuning in for that. Absolutely 100%. Please do. And I know heard Matt Murphy over on our friend Ashley Banfield's podcast yesterday. He's awesome too, and part of MK True Crime. A lot of really smart, smart lawyers, former cops, prosecutors, criminal defense attorneys discussing this case over there. Wanna bring in our super duper panel, Jim Fitzgerald Fitts and Maureen o'. Connell. They of course, as you know by now, have I think 50 years between them at the FBI. Now no longer with the FBI, but full of information. And we're going to do that right after this break. Don't go away. It's 2026 people. Are your blinds still stuck in 2006? We live in smart homes these days, but most window treatments have not caught up. Except for three Day Blinds, the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the United States. Their local professionally trained design consultants, averaging over 10 years of experience come right to you. They offer expert guidance in the comfort of your own home and give you a free no obligation quote the same day. Measuring and installing blinds can be a nightmare. Well, three Day Blinds handles everything. Design, precise measuring and professional installation. These blinds can elevate a room. Plus the motorized smart options are compatible with Alexa right now. Get quality window treatments that fit your budget with three day blinds. Head to three day blinds.com mk for their buy one get one 50 off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery for a free no charge, no obligation consultation. Just head to three the numeral three day blinds.com mk that's buy one get one 50 off when you head to the number three D a Y blinds.com mk based on a New York Times best thriller comes 56 days starring Dove Cameron. A story of love. Oh, sorry.

[James Hamilton]

I'm Oliver.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm Ciara. Lies. So do you like secrets? No, I like reveals, seduction. It's like they were obsessed with each other. And murder.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

What do you got here?

[James Hamilton]

Body in a bathtub?

[Megyn Kelly]

56 Days premieres February 18th on Prime Video. I'm gonna get you.

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Not if I get you first.

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21/ we are remote from a lovely location where I'm supposed to be on a Few days R and R. But that's not what's happening. Because we have got to stay on this story and on the news for all of you. And doing overtime duty for us as they have been now for weeks. Jim Fitzgerald and Maureen O', Connell, both of whom are 25 plus year veterans at the FBI. So. So let me kick it off here with you guys. This morning when I woke up in the wee hours to catch my flight, all over X was this other new video. And this other new video shows a man in an Alley, reportedly on February 1st, Nancy was taken overnight from January 31st into February 1st, which was Sunday. Shows a man in a back alley. We're showing it now. And he is wearing a backpack. He's got another backpack in his hands. He's got a gray jacket on. The pants are sort of like blue pants, not jeans, but pants. He is trying to. I can't even tell. I mean, I'm gonna ask you guys what you think, but I see him maybe trying to open a gate or do something with the backpack, maybe push it over the gate. I can't tell, but it doesn't seem to work because they. He then takes that second backpack back down and walks back to where he came from. And now TMZ is reporting that the FBI has got this video. Of course, people are crediting TMZ with breaking this video, which is not correct. It was all over X this morning. And I think it was. Hold on a second, because I have it. I'll find it. It was an ex, like, true crime solver who's been all over this case. It was not tmz. In any event, I wanna give him credit and I'll get that out of my packet in just one second. And so now there's a real question, guys, about whether that's our guy.

[Maureen O'Connell]

He.

[Megyn Kelly]

To me, I'll just kick it off. He looks skinnier than I would have expected. And I can't quite tell whether he has facial hair. He might. He doesn't have it all over his face, that's for sure. But he might have it, like in the front where we saw it in that mask. And I can't tell whether those backpacks are identical or not. But clearly the guy, he loves backpacks. And I don't know, he seems to be up to no good here in the middle of the night. Not far. This is about five miles away from Nancy Guthrie's house. And it's on the night in question. So, you know, that's pretty telling. Yeah. Here's the guy his name is Nerdy Addict. Nerdy Addict who is a very good ex follow. And he is the one who posted this, saying it was originally posted on the Ring Neighbors app app, which is full of information in the early morning hours of February 1, five miles south of Nancy's home. And he did report that it had been submitted to the FBI. Then Harvey Levin adds, the FBI is taking it seriously. So your thoughts on that, Maureen, I'll start with you.

[Maureen O'Connell]

First and foremost, we can expect the FBI's ERT team to be showing up at that location to conduct a comprehensive search. I think we can all agree on that. Secondly, if he had. I agree those jeans are looser than in the videos we have of the actual offender on Nancy's front porch. Let's call him the Gunslinger. So the gunslinger had on tighter jeans and he could have had those skinny jeans on. Over these pants. He now has two backpacks, whereas at Nancy's he only had one. Maybe the other one was in his vehicle, his getaway car or whatever. But actually, when I'm looking at these pants now, they don't look that dissimilar for some reason. I thought they were a little bit more fitted.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, it could be the color, too.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Yeah, well, the color. They're going to be able to do a color enhancement. The. The bureau will. Based on known colors at that location and how they're showing up on that. That nest camera that Nancy had, they're going to be able to do a little bit of something. Not sure what the. The I think he has. This guy looks to have what I would say is a gun in his right pocket. If you watch the way that pocket moves. Oh, to the guy.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Approaching. And there's. There's one photo. I actually did a still shot, and.

[Megyn Kelly]

We'Re talking about Double Backpack Man.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Double Backpack Man. Yep. Let's call him Pac Man. And no, I'm only kidding. Whatever you want. But if you look at, if you look at Pac man in this photo when he's putting. When he's putting something in the trash. Wait, I'm going the wrong way.

[Megyn Kelly]

What am I doing the other way.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Right there.

[Megyn Kelly]

You had it right there.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Right there. When, if you watch this when it's moving, you'll see the movement. You'll see the weight of the gun apparently, apparently at the bottom of that pocket. And it's as if the gun is laying like. Like laying in full in that pocket. See how you can see?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, you can see this. There's definitely something weighty in his right pocket.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Right he's also got something in his right pocket, like a phone or. And it looks like. I can't see that much, but when.

[Megyn Kelly]

I can, I just say something quickly. Look at his. Forgive me. Look at his rear end. He looks kind of skinny. Look at his legs. Yes, he looks kind of skinny. And can we see our actual abductor video now? Because he did not look skinny to me. Now you did. You raised the point of maybe the guy by the time he gets to Nancy's or when. This guy. Look at this. Don't you think this guy's rear end and legs are thicker than Pac Man?

[Maureen O'Connell]

What do you think, Fitz?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Well, the FBI has had this for at least, you know, 24 hours or more. I'm not sure exactly when it became available to them. They have all kinds of technical enhancement capabilities that, of course, you know, we don't have here. Megan, you may have some on your staff, but they're going to have as much as they can to blow that thing up and look at it in every single step of the way. Also, I'd want to make sure it's confirmed. The time and the location. We can't do anything about that, but we'll assume for now the location, the time is consistent with the Guthrie neighborhood and, of course, the night of. Of the abduction. So, yeah, there's a lot here. I mean, we talked before in the last week or so. None of us really believe in coincidences, certainly in terms of criminal activity, violent criminal activity. But this would be a coincidence on steroids if, in fact, somehow it's not related. So this. This guy absolutely, positively has to be ruled out, identified. If he's just some local yokel, you know, dumpster diving, looking for valuables or food or something, he should come forward to save everybody a lot of aggravation. But if he is, in fact, the abductor, or let's not rule out, you know, a partner of the abductor, you know, switching backpacks, and one carries a gun one time, one carries a gun the other. And I'm not locking into two people for this part of it, but nonetheless, they. They have to identify this guy. And if he's doing nothing wrong except prowling around some neighborhoods when he shouldn't, the police would probably know of this guy. The sheriff's department, he's. If he's just a random guy that does us every once in a while, maybe homeless, lives under attack to somewhere off the grid, they're going to know about this guy, and they're going to identify him and they're going to have now facial recognition, which this guy is going to be a lot better possibility because you have his whole face, some facial growth on his face. They're going to do some work with that. And I'm sure, I'm assuming this guy will be identified. Let's hope he's tied in to. To solve this case. Let's hope he's tied into the person at Nancy's house, and we could really then start moving forward.

[Megyn Kelly]

When you say it, you. It sounds so exactly right. Think about, I mean, Maureen, what are the odds that there were two men wearing very similar clothing with a backpack, packed to the brink within five miles of Nancy Guthrie's house on the night she was abducted, both of whom appear to have been carrying and appear to have been right handed. And this guy's. We think he's got the little facial hair, he's got the big round head. He also appears in one of the shots I looked at to have stick out ears. His head is perfectly round. There's not a lot of hair. You know, we talked about that, how you could see in the abductor's video, his head looks perfectly round. So he either didn't have like a bunch of hair that was mussing it up or maybe was bald. Yeah, here, you can kind of see it. You can kind of see that his ear was more prominent on the right side. So what, what are the odds of there being two of them on the night in question within five miles of each other and within hours of one another?

[Maureen O'Connell]

Astronomical. And then you have to ask yourself, why five miles away? Is that where he lives? Is that where they're keeping Nancy? Because in that, in that kidnapping case where I told you we recovered the child alive, he had been staying at a home several miles away from the location he was taken from. And he was being cared for by a family that was being paid to care for him while all the negotiations were going on with the, with the ransom?

[Megyn Kelly]

So it's possible. It's. I mean, so she watched that video. Do you have any idea what he's doing? Like, that's one of my questions was what the hell is he doing with that backpack? He's very focused on the one backpack and like, trying to shove it over this fence or put it some. I don't know what he's doing. You tell me what, what you could glean from watching this.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah, I've. I've. I've chased down burglars back in the day and bank burglars, residential burglars, Others, and, you know, some of them, like. Like a good kidnapper, like a good abductor, they're going to have a protocol set up and an MO. A modus operandi that gets them in the door and out the door. They may have materials with them. In the old days, you find a guy carrying a bunch of, you know, several pillowcases with them. Well, guess what? He's not looking to buy a pillow and take a nap. He's. He has that. To put material inside there. They may get the pillowcase from the house, quite frankly, but they also could bring a trash bag or something. So, yeah, both these guys seem to have. I kidded the other day on the air, like, almost like they're carrying parachutes. Of course, it's not that, but they look like they're stuffed to the brim. Some kind of canvas material, tarp, of course, tools we talked about the other day. It looks like this is their kit. Is it a burglar kit? Abduction, kid rape, murder, kidnap. We don't know, but it's a. It's a kit for criminal activity against a human being. So what's in that kit is going to be very valuable. Change of clothes, change of, you know, hoods that we don't see on this guy on these. This newer video. And it's. It's. It's his kit to get him successfully to commit that crime. And. And we get that kit and find out, and this last guy we're just seeing, he has two different bags, it seems.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

And the video from the offender at one point, and Megan, you pointed this out. There's no bag in one of the pictures. So are these things, like, interchangeable? They put them down. One has one purpose, one has another. When they're first casing the place, you know, they don't have a bag at all to look suspicious in case someone sees them.

[Megyn Kelly]

Fitz, that discussion that we had yesterday about this picture has been haunting me. So for the listening audience, we're showing the picture of the abductor right underneath the archway at Nancy's house where he's not wearing the backpack. We don't see the gun. And the whole face mask looks like he has it on backwards. You can't see eyes, you can't see a mouth. Could just be the camera. Not able to focus on him quite yet because he's not close enough, but you can't see any of that. And all I've been thinking about over the past night is that what if that was. And it seems like it would have to have been after the crime, because I feel like we see him arrive to commit the crime. When he steps onto her property, he's got his flashlight in. He steps up on that little step. He seems to know it's coming. He's. He sees the nest cam. He's like, okay, I gotta deal with that. He does the vegetation. You know, I. If the shot of him without the backpack was recon, his recon wasn't very good. So this is. We're showing him now arriving with the head down and his little mouth cam, mouth flashlight going. But my thought was simply, if that's him post crime without the backpack and without the gun, and now we know Nancy's not in the house any longer. It doesn't. It's not good. I mean, he should still need his gun. He should still be afraid that Nancy's gonna get out of that car and run, that he's got a live person in his car. Like there's no time. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on whether that makes it more or less likely? Like, should I have the opposite analysis? No, that's got to be him scouting it out in advance. Because post crime, we know this person, whoever it was, had Nancy.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Well, he's going to need the flashlight when he goes into the house. The house is pitch dark. You're not going to turn the lights on within the house because anyone driving by, even though you can't see much, you would be able to see if the lights were on inside Nancy's house at 2 o' clock in the morning. And that would be concerning, especially if you're a friend that knows that her bedroom is all the way in the back or wherever it is. So he's got to have the flashlight when he's trying to go in. He also has to have the flashlight when he's going up to try to check the doorknob, because you'll notice that that video stops right before he would try to gain entry there. I mean, what if this dude had a key and went in the front door? We don't know because the video was stopped then. Do we not have the video? That's probably the video that law enforcement is holding back from this point.

[Megyn Kelly]

They totally have it, Maureen, because we saw him deal with the camera. I feel like we know what he did with the camera here. He settled on. I'm gonna cover it with flowers. Right. He didn't appear to keep trying to get it off. It appears. I don't know what happened next, but I think you're Right. I think law enforcement has probably got video of him either entering this front door or abandoning it and going out that path and then winding up around the back.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Because the plan to drag her out the front door, that was the plan. He couldn't get in the front door, or maybe he did with a key or something. But you're not gonna get past that burglar door and that really thick, wooden Spanish style front door that they have. I can't even look at a door like that without my hips hurting to this day. And Fitz will tell you the same thing. But the one in the back would be easy to break in. It's a thinner door. It's got nine small square panes of glass. You can either punch a hole in which someone did not do that, or you just boot the door down or boot it in. And that's if I don't know why they're not answering the question. Was this forced entry or was it not forced entry? But if it was forced entry, it had to be from the back because.

[Megyn Kelly]

That Ashley Banfield is reporting that it was that. I mean, so far, all of what she reported in her big scoop on the Tuesday after Nancy went missing has proven out. She said they were NEST cameras. Everybody else had just been assuming ring. Guess what? They turned out to be NEST cameras. She said that there was a camera in the front and the back. That we don't know for sure. But I felt like the sheriff said they he referred to plural. We don't have them. So that seems to suggest he also hasn't denied most of her reporting. Like he hasn't said the forced entry. He said, I don't know where you got that from. We didn't say that. We didn't say that. That's not a denial. So there could have been a forced entry. Ashley did report it was a forced entry from the back door and that the back door was left open and that's how the family found it when they showed up. So TMZ is also reporting now something interesting about that timeline. So it was 1:47am that the doorbell camera went offline, according to them. But it was 2:12am that either some remnant of a camera or some different camera reported an image of a person had appeared. And the cop was sure to say, the sheriff said it could have been actually an image of an animal, but it detected something. It detected an image at 212. And we spent days confused about how was it detecting images of people or anything after it was already disabled or disconnected at 1:47am and they ultimately explained there was another camera. Now, TMZ is reporting that it was at 2:12am that we are seeing the intruder video. That. That. That video is from 2:12am now, we haven't independently confirmed that, but I'm more confused than ever. Like, well, then what happened? At 1:47 the doorbell camera went offline. And yet at 2:12 we see this. So was it the back doorbell camera that went off line at 1:47 and there he is at the 2. At. At 212. Why wouldn't he just be in the back? None of it makes sense. And I guess it's not going to until law enforcement explains it to us.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Co conspirator, driver. No, because he had the backpack on. The guy in the. In the. In the intruder video had the backpack on. But they could have been using something like a Nextel, a walkie talkie fits the guy, the. The getaway driver and the kidnapper.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah, and I, I don't want to give these one or more people too much more credit than they deserve, but I'm. Obviously, the abduction part has been successful up to this point in time, although obviously some mistakes now and shortness and a lack of professionalism in terms of their overall activity. But Megan. Yeah, this could be free offense. We see the person walking up, doing a quick reconnoiter without all the equipment on except the mask, to be sure. And maybe even backwards. You could probably still see through it, depending on what kind of ambient light is there. I know there's not much, and they're just looking around real quick. Or also, it could have been after Nancy is safely in the car. She's restrained well enough, perhaps being watched by someone else. And this person. I've seen burglars. I've interviewed burglars after the fact that they would come back to the scene if they've had even 10 minutes or 20 minutes in a residence or a business. And they look around one more time, left, no tools left, no gloves. You know, this is even before DNA analysis when I was doing some of these. But they wanted to make sure they left nothing behind at the scene. So here. He could be coming up one more time. Backpacks in the car, gun, everything else looks around. All right, it's good. Let's get out of here. That could explain. They really explains the beforehand, him walking up and. And. And afterwards without the backpack.

[Megyn Kelly]

Something else that happened is they found gloves. Okay, we talked about that with Phil Holloway before you guys got here. They found a pair of gloves and Everybody says, okay, it's the desert. You're gonna see gloves. But it is kind of interesting that it's in exactly the right place. It's not too far away from Nancy's house. And the gloves, they're not in the middle of, like, an area people prune. From the look of it. It's like roadside. It almost has the feel of somebody driving away and chucking things out the window. And then, sure enough, we know that the police went back. They found these yesterday evening in the daylight hours. Clearly the sun had not set. You can see that in the video because the New York Post happened to be traveling with them. And they go back at 2:15 in the morning, not to that exact spot, guys, but not too far from there. I'm just judging from the map my team made maybe half an hour, half a mile farther south to search in the darkness. So what's that about?

[Maureen O'Connell]

I don't understand. Searching in the darkness. And I've done. I've done a million of these searches, but. Fitz, go ahead.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Now, all I want to say. And we're in. You've been on these kind of task forces. At some point, they start working around the clock. And you have three different shifts, maybe two different shifts, 12 hours each. Some kind of a lead comes in at midnight. A couple agents look at each other. The boss says, yeah, sure. Hey, go out. And it may be just something as. As inconsequential as that. I don't mean the evidence is inconsequential or what they found, but it could be, hey, guys, we're just sitting here. The calls aren't coming in at, you know, whatever time it is. Let's go out with our flashlights, you know, put up some floodlights maybe, and search this particular area. And I'm not sure if that's exactly when they found these gloves or they were looking for something else at that point, but. And there's also a reflective bag, as we noticed Megan and Maureen. And maybe just shining a flashlight across some of this wide, you know, depth and breadth alongside these roadways, you'd get a reflection that you wouldn't normally necessarily pick up in the daylight with a backpack that may blend in with the. With the floor of the vegetation, etc. So I. I don't want to put too much into the time of night that the agents were out there, except, hey, nothing else is happening. I've covered my leads. Let's go take a ride and look at some of these things. And someone picks up what they're doing. They Also may want to avoid the media knowing what they're doing, but of course someone saw them and there's no avoiding us.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Yeah, excellent point on the reflective material on that backpack fits because you, first of all, that backpack, backpack, if it's gray, you're not even going to see it when you're out there walking, it's going to be really hard. It's super bright sunlight and everything is just those light camo colors and that gray backpack would fall right into it. But with regard, if I could for a moment on those gloves, I think the idea with the gloves is just, I'm just so excited about this piece of evidence for a number of reasons. Number one, it's going to have the guy's DNA on it. There's no way. It's not going to. Secondly, if he put those gloves on while he was in his car before they got out to conduct this crime that they committed and they put their hand in the door handle to open it, they could almost superimpose fingerprints that were on that door handle onto the glove and then transfer them onto some, some surface within the property or on the doors or on that housing of the nest camera.

[Megyn Kelly]

Would that still be here all this time later? Maureen 11:10, 11 days later?

[Maureen O'Connell]

Yes, absolutely.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, wow.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Really?

[Megyn Kelly]

You're confident?

[Maureen O'Connell]

Yeah. Great. Mentioned touch DNA and what you're.

[Megyn Kelly]

Could, could he be that dumb to throw the things out the window?

[Maureen O'Connell]

Well, my guess was when I first heard it, he stopped to go to the bathroom and he took the gloves off and may have tried to put them in his pocket and it was pitch black and he didn't realize it and they just fell to the ground while he was urinating.

[Megyn Kelly]

And at this point, you're not foreseeing the entire country bearing down on your crime and the amount of searching and resources and 100 FBI agents or however many it is. You know, you're not thinking like this is this, this is a dumb move to leave these gloves here. I'm, I'm off the crime scene at least.

[Maureen O'Connell]

And before a big op, you always either before or after you want to go to the washroom, right, Fitz? Especially as a guy.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true. Or have the, have the stuff in the bottle to clean your hands. But yeah, I mean, of course, maybe within a 20ft, 20 foot radius of those gloves, pick up some of the soil and look for any DNA material in there. I mean, we can probably find animal DNA. But also, and I think your earlier guest before us, Megan, suggested besides his own DNA on it, or fingerprints. We could also have the DNA of, of Nancy Guthrie. So, and that would certainly tie the gloves in directly to the crime. And what we have to hope here too is that perhaps this guy is in codis. That's the national DNA database that they can run done. So if there is DNA found, they want to, they could, they could possibly come up with a name, an address, conceivably right away. But he has to be in there for some sort of prior crime that in fact law permits his DNA to be put in there is, you know, his right up, so to speak. So there's a lot that can come from those gloves. It may come back to someone's DNA in CODIS who has nothing to do with the crime. And we all have to be prepared for that. But just like the guy, the other guy, double backpack guy we're calling him. And these gloves, they all have to be worked to their logical conclusion until investigators can absolutely rule them out that they have nothing to do with Maureen.

[Megyn Kelly]

How long would it take to get the DNA test back on those gloves which they found yesterday afternoon, like around 4 or 5 in the evening.

[Maureen O'Connell]

The turnaround can be as fast as 24, 48 hours, especially with access to the FBI lab. They've got, they've got a bunch of ten pound brains there on scene, but they can also ship it right back, have two agents jump on a flight and bring it right back to the lab. So they're going to get it done very, very quickly.

[Megyn Kelly]

It would also be a little bit.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Of a bonus if they could find some of that crushed foliage from the front porch with a little bit of blood from the guy's shoes right there next to those gloves.

[Megyn Kelly]

And keep in mind we've been discussing loosely in this past hour, did he have an accomplice driving the car, watching Nancy helping him with the disposal of some of the materials? Don't forget Kash Patel did say on hannity 2 nights ago persons of interest, we have persons plural. He's not dumb. He understands to make it plural it means something than to just say we have a person, old Carlos. So you know, query who else he's looking at there. By the way, on the Carlos thing there was reporting that explained some of why they got to him. Nerdy addiction. Nerdy addict who was the one who posted that video of Pac Man. He reported that Carlos was detained based on cell phone usage data and traffic analysis. Which would make sense because Carlos said they didn't even interview me when they approached me. They, they put cuffs on me. I Sat there for two hours. They searched my home, they took my phone, they took my mother in law's phone, they took my wife's phone, they took my kids phone and then they left and they battered their way into my house and they caused some damage. My wrists hurt. But he said they didn't even interview him. And as you know later the FBI said his alibi checked out. Reportedly said so that would make some sense if they were going off of cell phone usage data and traffic analysis. We know he was a doordash delivery driver. Maybe they spotted him. Yeah, he was in the area.

[Maureen O'Connell]

He's going up and down that block. He may have parked in the area behind him him for a few minutes and they were. Sorry about that.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, I can hear you. I got you.

[Maureen O'Connell]

You know he may have his, his, his movements must have been suspicious.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then when they get their hands on his phone they know easily within an hour where he was on the night in question, during the hours in question. Right. That doesn't take the FBI long to run down.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Not at all. And let me, I'm sure there's a number of defense attorneys in the area reaching out to Carlos. Yes, we're going to sue the government for you. And Megan, as a lawyer, you know this. There's such a thing as known as exigent circumstances. And I've learned that in a few different law enforcement academies. I'm not a lawyer but it's very, very rare that that can actually come into play here. And I think a kidnapped person who may be, you know, conceivably dying without medication or heart, anything to do with her heart problem, those kind of factors can kick in where Miranda warnings can be, be put aside and, and emergency searches can be done like we're done, like having been done here. They can still contest it in court later, even civilly with this guy. But just so people don't think there's all kinds of rights being violated here, exigent circumstances is a legal term and, and that, that kind of covers the agents investigative actions at this part. He didn't always seem to be complaining. I think he said basically besides his wrist being a little sore or something, the agents treated them okay, but they had to do that.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then they just put his handcuffs on him. No, wait. I know Maureen's got to leave in a minute but I want to ask a question first about that tent. So this morning for an hour they put a tent out in front of Nancy's front door and did some sort of analysis in there and they brought in some sort of. I don't know what it was called, but it was obviously a video type of machine. And let's see, I have it written down. Ultra Studio 4K Minikit, professional capture and playback device designed for high end video workflows. Can connecting a computer like a laptop or a desktop to professional video equipment. You can do editing, color grading, live production, broadcast and other things. They also had a large pelican style box labeled video forensics.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Pelican style box. Megan.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, and what they said, what Michael Ruiz also reported, was that they left carrying a diagram with human heights. So, Maureen, you tell me what they were doing under that tent.

[Maureen O'Connell]

That's exactly. I thought it was gonna be one of two things. They were either mapping out the blood stain better and the other option was they were gonna determine exact. Oh yeah, they're determining exactly how tall this person is.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, they can use for the listening audience. We're showing an FBI agent, we think, carrying like a. It almost looks like the kind of thing that you'd have your child stand up against in the doctor's office to see how tall he is. So using that, they can figure out how tall the perp was? Yes.

[Maureen O'Connell]

And they're going to look at the bricks on the wall, they're going to look at the tiles on the ground, those satillo tiles, and they're going to check from the camera that the exact angle that the camera is at and with the way the guy was hunching his head and I mean, they're going to be putting together a whole bunch of information and they're going to determine exactly how tall this person was.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, here's what else is crazy. So the New York Post just right now reporting that the other thing they did under that tent was they took away the nest camera bracket, you know, the cradle guys. Isn't it nuts that that was still sitting there? I like just look what my Jake Whitman did yesterday, you know, like mounting it and trying to get the thing off of it. And it's like, can we really have safely said there's nothing on that. We should leave that sitting there. I just feel like there's been a lot of questions about how this crime scene has been handled before the FBI got on scene.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

All I can say is if they, it wouldn't have been that big of a deal if they didn't release the house back to the family. But they did release the house back to the family. Not that they went in there and removed, you know, the bracket for the camera, whatever, but still they gave it back. And now they're coming back again, crossing every T, dotting every I. Even if it's almost two weeks later? Let's just say they're getting it done right. Even if it's delayed and.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Okay, last question. Maureen, before you run, the visit to Annie and Tomas's house the other day, we discussed it. Two agents, or two, we think they were cops, went over, they emerged holding a Whole Foods paper bag, not like an evidence bag that was plastic and fancy. They had on blue latex gloves. When they walked out of the house, they weren't in the house for too long, and then they went and they got the mail out of the mailbox with the latex gloves on. Could this have just been a lot of speculation about what they were doing again at Annie and Tomas', but could this have just been the family's in a remote location and they're helping him out? Like she needed her sweater and she wanted her mail.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Right. It could have been private security. And the reason he's wearing gloves is because if there's something in that mailbox that ends up being evidence, this guy doesn't want to have to cough up his DNA for exclusionary purposes. He's just said, hey, I just reached and grabbed it, put it in a bag and handed it to them. So if there's anything on it, it's either the perpetrators or theirs or the mailman's.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Because they, I, I watched those guys. They did look like possibly military, possibly law enforcement experience, but they could have also been private security, which is very common to hire after an incident like this when you need all kinds of things. They probably have security there wherever the hell they're staying.

[Megyn Kelly]

We know the family has, has hired security for both houses, I'm sure, because the media was just everywhere, but has denied hiring a private investigator. One guy who helped the feds out on the Bryan Kohlberger case showed up at that tent today outside of Nancy's house. And there was some speculation earlier that this guy was a PI hired by the Guthrie's. And they denied hiring a PI and it later came out, this is some like, stud who helped out in the Kohlberger investigation and now is helping out in this one. Maureen, I know you gotta go. I won't take advantage of your very, very generous time with us. Thank you. And we'll talk to you soon.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Soon.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

So, Jim, we're going to pause here. I think we're going to pause and we're going to bring in our friends from yesterday, James and will. But first, we're going to take a quick break. Lots more to go through standby. We'll be right back. When you bring a child into the world, your perspective changes overnight. Suddenly you're thinking years ahead about childcare, school, the future, milestones. Part of loving your family also means thinking about their future, even in the uncomfortable ways like life insurance. It's not a fun topic. No one wants to talk about it, but you do need to spend a couple minutes thinking about it. Okay, so we'll get this over with, you'll make this call and you'll be done. Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy. It's 100% online. You get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes, and get same day coverage up to 3 million bucks. Some policies are as low as $30 a month. Business Insider named Ethos the number one no medical exam instant life insurance provider, and Ethos has a stellar 4.8 out of 5 stars on Trustpilot with over 3000 reviews. Protect your family with life insurance through Ethos get your free quote in [e-mail] MK that's ethos.com MK ethos.com MK application times and rates may vary. If you are stressed out about getting out of debt, it's go time. This is one of those moments where timing matters. And let me tell you about done with debt 2025 was a record year for them. People who collectively had more than $102 million in debt turned to these guys for help, and right now may be the best time to negotiate a settlement. Done With Debt tracks credit card and loan company behavior. They're experienced at knowing who's negotiating and when and what it takes to get you the biggest reduction possible. You don't know all that stuff. You can't figure that out on your own own. Go to an expert who's got these things wired. Whether you are carrying 10,000 or $500,000 in debt, this may be the best chance you will get all year to get rid of it. So consider scheduling a free consultation. It only takes a few minutes. Imagine waking up without that weight on your shoulders, without all that stress every day and doing it without taking out another loan or filing for bankruptcy. Done With Debt helps you through the debt relief process so you keep more of your paycheck every month. Go to donewithdebt.com right now that's donewithdebt.com donewithdebt.com based on a New York Times best thriller comes 56 Days, starring Dove Cameron, A story of love. Oh Sorry.

[James Hamilton]

I'm Oliver.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm Ciara. Lies. So do you like secrets? No, I like reveal. Seduction. It's like they were obsessed with each other. And murder.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

We got here.

[James Hamilton]

Body in the bathtub.

[Megyn Kelly]

56 days. Premieres February 18th on Prime Video. I'm gonna get you.

[James Hamilton]

Not if I get you first.

[Megyn Kelly]

Try angel stuff for your tushy. It's made by Angels Soft and strong. But budget friendly. The choice is simple. A roll that feels like paradise and always at a heavenly prize. Angel soft. Angel soft. Something strong.

[Maureen O'Connell]

So simple.

[Megyn Kelly]

Pick up a pack today. Angel soft. Soft and strong. Simple. Hey, everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on SiriusX. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel. And it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered, with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly show, you're gonna hear from people like Mark Halperin, link Lauren Maureen Callahan, Emily jasinsky, Jesse Kelly, RealClear Politics, and many more. It's bold. No BS news only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, SiriusXM 111, and on the Sirius XM app. We're joined, as we were yesterday, by two others. James Hamilton, former FBI supervisory Special agent and founder of the Hamilton Security Group, along with Will Geddes, elite bodyguard and security expert and founder of international corporate Protection. Gentlemen, a pleasure. Thank you all so much for coming back. Okay, a couple of things that I want to get to, including the evidence analysis that's going on right now of the abductor's outfit. We've had so many smart armchair sleuths online on X doing their own searches for what is that backpack? Because it's pretty distinctive. What is that jacket he's wearing? Because that too is kind of distinctive with this horizontal stripe, thin stripe right across the middle, and it may be fleece. And it seems like people have figured out that that backpack may be an Ozark Trail hiker backpack. That it is, apparently. And then, by the way, the. The local reporter, Kold's Mary Coleman, she's been reporting and that's one of the organizations that received the alleged ransom note. She reported that. Indeed, a law enforcement source close to the case says they are familiar with this brand of Ozark Trail hiker and they are looking into it. They're looking into other brands as well, but they've got their eyes on this one one. And this was one that the online salutes came up with almost immediately. It's cheap. They sell it at Walmart including the Walmart in Tucson, the Tucson Walmart superstore, where you can get it right now for $10.88. So it's cheap. It's 11 bucks. And that dovetails pretty well with, I think every one of your conclusion, which was this was not some super trained hitman, high budget operation. The $11 backpack thing probably jives for you. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'll start with you, James. On it. Thoughts?

[James Hamilton]

Great. It's, you know, technology is wonderful. I just feel for these agents, these officers who are getting, I read last count, like 4,000 leads and you know, in 24 hours. Because these, as you call them, sleuths are doing all this great work and you know, it's awesome, but it's also, you know, that stuff's gotta be worked and it takes a while and they're. There's not like an infinite stream of agents. So it's wonderful and I think it's great. I agree with you. 11 backpack from Walmart would. Would be completely in line with the Uncle Mike's crap holster this person was wearing. So that's. That all checks out. But again, these leads have to get run down. And, and you know, Fitz was talking earlier about 24, seven shifts. Yeah. They're not sleeping. I remember working these, you know, very, very few kidnappings. I worked. But you didn't go home. It was like all hands on deck until you found this victim.

[Megyn Kelly]

And how do you do it, James? Like, do you. Do you go into the Walmart and you say you carry these backpacks? Yeah, we do.

[James Hamilton]

Yeah, that's exactly what happens then what? You ask for, you know, purchases, you ask for purchase orders, you get a subpoena. You ask for how many of these backpacks were sold.

[Megyn Kelly]

They have all that. Like a place like Walmart would have that. All that recorded.

[Will Geddes]

Yes.

[James Hamilton]

And then you start looking. Hopefully they, you know, as we're going down the road of him not being a pro, would buy in cash. A pro would buy it with cash. A pro would go to different stores, not buy all the material at the same store. But you know, an amateur probably use a credit card. And you know, that would be a huge break for, for us if we could get a credit card. And then it's. It's on.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. Then we did take a look just to see if at that same Tucson Walmart they were selling face masks. And we determined that they. They are not available at that Tucson Walmart. You'd have to get that online. So for whatever it's worth. And I don't know whether that was still the case three months ago or whenever but I mean it would be. Do you think it would be relatively recent will that they'd be that, that they'd be asking Walmart to search? Because like if this guy bought this stuff five years ago, Walmart's not gonna have that.

[Will Geddes]

Yes, no, I mean it really does depend on whether he had it already in his possession. It was something that he'd been using. But again that's where it's going to be you know, on a day to day basis. But that's where it's going to be kind of interesting certainly when they start joining up CCTV from neighborhoods from various other areas and to see some sort of lifespan of this individual. Now they've hopefully got some sort of clear identification certainly on what he was wearing that they can try and join all these pieces together. You know, as James was saying, it's a jigsaw puzzle. And, and I would concur that I think, I think this is much more of a non professional in terms of the individual that's behind it. Buying gray kit, I. E. Buying sort of very low cost items is not unknown for professionals. Professionals will do that to try and evade detection or discovery. However, the one area which James rose, which I think is really important was the Uncle Mike holster. Now if it was a professional I think they would find it incredibly difficult to go into an operation with a, a sort of nylon holster as basic as that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why? Explain, explain to the those of us who don't know about the holsters why that's so basic and low end?

[Will Geddes]

Well, firstly was the positioning of the weapon Megan, you know, this weapon was overt, it was, it was not concealed and more often than not, you know, anybody who's used to carrying a far around will be used to concealed carry or certainly have sufficiently good quality holsters because you only have to use. Anybody who uses a firearm will know if you have a cheap holster that's going to wear out or it's going to let you down in some shape or form. So again, having that cheap holster indicates that this individual may not necessarily be well practiced or well versed and have had a lifespan of using firearms because more often than not as much as you invest in the weapon and you're also investing in the ancillary and auxiliary equipment that you use with it.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so that, so pretty much everything about him looks cheap. I mean we looked it up and it was like the Luigi backpack that he used when he killed allegedly the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, Brian Thompson. It was like $300. It was high end. He came from a rich family. And we're seeing so far what we believe is the opposite of that. With clothing that didn't look expensive. A backpack that, that you can get for 11 bucks. The ski mask, for what it's worth, retails right now. If you order it today, you can get it between February 20th and February 27th for $3.12. So that's another, you know, low end item that he appears to have used. And if this is the guy, I want to ask you guys for your thoughts on the new videotape that may or may not be related. But before you got here, we talked about how, like, even though there are some apparent differences between the. The alley guy who's got two backpacks, we've been calling him Pac man, and the actual abductor. Like the actual abductor to us looks a little thicker than Pac Man, a little like fatter or just stockier in the legs and in the rear end in particular. But who knows? Because Abductor man could have had a few more layers on. We don't know. But we are told that this video of Pac man took place in the wee hours of the morning, we believe, post the abduction of Nancy Guthrie and that it happened five miles south of Nancy Guthrie's home. By the way, at least the guy who posted it on X Nerdy Addict described this as. It was submitted to him as a tip and the person did also submit it to the FBI. And this person is shown trying. This is the description that he got to unlock a side gate. To unlock a side gate. I guess I shouldn't say that it happened after Nancy. They say it has no time stamp. We just know, quote, early morning hours of February 1st, which is when she was stolen. So your thoughts, you guys, on the odds of this being like another criminal potentially in the area with the backpacks, in a similar outfit. And we thought we saw a possible weapon in his right hand jacket, his zippered pocket. Maureen was suggesting she thought she saw that anyway. Not confirmed, but a speculative possibility.

[James Hamilton]

I thought I saw a timestamp. Maybe you should play that video again. But I thought I saw a timestamp in the bottom right. And it was saying 1:53am on February 1st.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, we'll have to go back and look at that. If that's. Well, if that's true, how can he possibly be in this in two places at one time?

[James Hamilton]

It's hard to do very well.

[Megyn Kelly]

But it also assumes that the camera was set on the right time.

[James Hamilton]

Correct. And that's an excellent point. And you know, I've seen so many notes set on the exact right time zone. They didn't factor in leap year. It could have been off. And that can easily explain it. It's quite, that's a, quite a good lead that someone needs to find out who that person is. And he's definitely worth a really strong investigative interview. I, I think Fitz wanted to comment, but I, I was laughing when Will was talking about the Uncle Mike thing. I just want to go back to the, the holster. So we call it that because that's a very cheap holster that you would usually see like a hunter purchase for a big revolver. And that, that, that one right there. Yeah, that's for a big revolver, like a 6 inch, 8 inch barrel. And what's happened here is they've stuck a semi auto smaller pistol into this thing and it's such so haphazard. It reminds me very much of like where I live, where a lot of people carry what we call open car carry. And it's like a cowboy, like it's, it's insane. And it looks like that the pistol doesn't match the holster. It's like total amateur hour. And you just kind of, well, most of us, we just kind of laugh about it and then I leave, get away from them because they're dangerous. But yeah, that's why I was laughing at that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Just FYI. James, my, my team is confirming. Yes, it says 1:53 Mountain Standard Time on February 1, 2026. That's the timestamp on there. And again now I do not, I don't trust any of these times at this point. But the Sheriff said at 1:47am The Nest cameras were disconnected at Nancy's. And at 2:12am they alerted Image detected. And he said, you know, could have been a man, could have been an animal. 2:12. Now TMZ is reporting that it was 2:12am that the abductor tried to get in as we saw or tried to cover up the NEST cam and did all the stuff. The guy with the face mask, that's 2:12am I haven't confirmed that independently, but that's what TMZ is reporting that that was at 2:12. This is 1:53 Mountain Standard Time. So I don't know, like could you, if you take the 147 ring camera disconnected out of it, which I will say for the record, my team, some of whom have NEST cameras have told me whatever Rings or nest, that sometimes they go offline. And you get that sometimes the. The camera will say offline because whatever, you have an Internet hit, etc. In any event, 1:53 to 2:12. What's that, 7:12, 17 minutes. I don't want to do the math. It's 7 plus 12, which is 19. Thank you.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Megan. Can I tell you, on the task, on the task force wall, there's a big white whiteboard, probably digital, and they have the times exactly lined up, what they are, and they've gone back to the ring, company or nest, whatever they know. So we can speculate a lot, and this is. This is healthy to do for us in trying to piece these. These items together. But I'm assuming that the. The investigators themselves know exactly what this is. And then just let me go back a couple minutes here. In the unabom case, agents went out to every single junkyard in the country. Now think about that. Trying to find the components of the devices, the IEDs, improvised explosive devices, the bombs the Unabomber was sending through the mail. And. And some of these in, certainly in rural areas, Some guy just has his backyard, and that's a junkyard. But agents wound up tracking down every single. A lot of people didn't know that. But before he was told unibody bomb or Unabomber, he was called the junkyard bomber because all the devices were handmade or picked up from loose, loose structures. Then when the manifesto came in and the letters or the bombs were addressed to people, it didn't. It took them not too long to figure out all that information is coming from the who's who book in libraries. This is pre Internet. Remember as a kid, the biggest book in the library was always who, who, who's who. You couldn't check it out. It was just a reference map value. FBI agents went to every single library in the country trying to get information. Hey, who's coming in? Who's looking at these? Who's paging through them, looking, you know, here's the composites look anything like this? And interesting. A lot of the university, university libraries would not help at first, but once a professor got bombed and seriously injured, Yale university and other universities, they said, oh, FBI, come on back. We think we can help you. Now, that's just a side story there, but it just shows you that's pre Internet, and that just shows you they'll go in person and do this. And there are agents all over the country now fanning out, looking at these different places where these are sold in an attempt to determine the providence of the mask, backpack, everything we're talking about.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right now, we get a report as we're talking. Fox News, FBI, and the sheriff seeking to question man with backpack captured on video just miles from Nancy Guthrie's home on the night she vanished. Finished. They want to speak with the guy seen on the camera. That. That makes perfect sense. I think Maureen raised a good point, too, that is there any possibility they haven't already gone to that location and searched for whatever was in that backpack, the actual backpack, whatever remnants were there. What if this. If the guy who broke the story, nerdy addict, if he's correct, that the person is trying to unlock a side gate, that they've been through that side gate. I mean, how long does it take to get a warrant? I guess that's one of the relevant questions because, you know, getting the warrant is important so that whatever evidence may or may not be there can be admitted later down the line. But does it take a long time to get a warrant and get over there and get. Get that searched while you put out, basically, an APB for the man shown in the tape?

[James Hamilton]

Well, you wouldn't need one in this case. I mean, this is ostensibly a third party residence that we don't have any. Any information that this guy owns that house because he would have been able to just walk through that gate. So the people that own it, I mean, I'd run over there with Fitz and say, hey, you know, FBI, we need to. We need to talk to you about the Nancy Guthrie investigation. And we have reason to believe this guy tried to, you know, get over your fence. Do you mind if we look and they're going to say nine times out of 10, absolutely, you can look. And that's called a consent search. You know, now if they start to say, hell, no, you can't, well, okay, we may have to use extra circumstances, maybe stretch it or have to get a warrant. We can hold it. You know, we can secure that area and make sure nothing's tampered with until we go get a warrant. But my experience is, you know, because you. You're nice. And when they teach agents how to be nice and talk to people, you know, you can get consent from the homeowner. That's not that difficult.

[Megyn Kelly]

I will say, just looking at it, even though this guy, Pac man, as we're calling him, with a double backpack looks skinnier to me than the abductor, One thing I will say is yesterday we talked about whether the abductor has some sort of a limp or something wrong with his leg because his gait is a little weird. It's a little stilted. The way he goes down off of that step, it's like he almost doesn't bend his leg the way a normal person would. There. Here it is, right there. That could just be because he's in the dark. He doesn't know where the step is. I don't want to attribute too much to it, but this guy seems to have also an odd gait. There's got to be somebody at the FBI who does gate analysis. Right. We saw that with the pipe bombing, the pipe bomber, where the blaze had a gate analysis that told them it was a woman who had a connection with the federal government. She then allegedly had an alibi showing that she was with her dogs, though. I don't know. Know. I. I got. I still have questions about the pipe bomber case, if I'm totally honest. In any event, the. They said that's not true and that the pipe bomber was this. This, you know, this kid, this sort of autistic kid who lived in Maryland. But they have somebody to analyze gate, do they not? They not.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah, they do, either in the FBI or they have experts on call to. To assist in that regard. That's kind of a newer. I don't think that would be testimonial or evidentiary, but certainly from an investigative perspective, that would be valuable to have, certainly to compare one person's gate to another. And there's a lot of that, not just in the J5 bomber case, certainly in the last months or so before the arrest came, but certainly in the Brown University case. People are analyzing the gate on that person. And just to go back to the house where this double Pac man one version, we're calling him.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

We haven't heard anything about the people who live in that house. And is the address by chance and.

[Megyn Kelly]

If it's even a house? Right. It looks like a back alley to, like an apartment complex or some sort.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Of whatever it is. And does the address, you know, somehow the numbers match up, you know, to an agency.

[Megyn Kelly]

Look, Fitz, it looks like he's in a parking garage there. Look, there's a. There's two cars. We can see in the foreground. There's cars in the background. Multiple. It looks like some sort of a parking complex or garage. So this.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah, I can't determine that. People. I'm sure they know where it is right now, but obviously talk to everybody who lives there. And what is this person doing in that particular environment? And did somehow the address or street even resemble a little bit, you know, Nancy Guthrie's. I know it's five or so miles away, but could this be a wrong idea? And let me tell you, I worked in 2001, the case of the Zantop professors from Dartmouth University murdered in their home, stabbed to death. Knife sheet coincidentally left behind in that case too, which helped eventually arrest two teenagers from across the. Across the line in Vermont. But what they did, the two teenagers a day or two before, they knocked on different neighbors doors to get in because they were pretending they were going to do some kind of a survey. They had a clipboard back in the day, whatever, and to make it look official. And they actually knocked on these doors. Luckily, those neighbors said. Said not interested. Not interested. The Zantops being professors at Dartmouth, let them in and next thing you know, they get. They get stabbed to death. Both of them. Different case. I realized that. And we may have a different guy here at this other location, but related to the. To the guy at Guthrie house. So they could have practice runs, they could have a wrong address. They could be trying to get anywhere. Now we're. Now we're going to a territory. Is this completely unrelated to anything we've been discussing here with, With. With Savannah?

[Megyn Kelly]

I have to say, like, the guy looks too skinny to me. Like, I don't.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Rarest of the rare.

[Megyn Kelly]

Can we just look at the. Let's look at the abductor video one more time, team. Let's put that back on the board because the. The first thing I said about the actual abductor, not this, not Pac man, abductor Man. Look, look at his rear end and his legs. That. The guy on the right to me looks like he's got a good, I don't know, £25 on Pac Man. He's not skinny. That was actually one of the first things we agreed on about abductor. But Pac man is kind of skinny. You see it because he's lifting up his arms, trying to shove that backpack over that gate and his jacket lifts up and you can see his entire backside and his legs. And he is a very skinny. Not very skinny, but he's a skinny guy, this guy. Would you describe this guy as very skinny Abductor Man?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

No.

[Will Geddes]

No. I think, I think. I think abducted man is certainly a bit more junky, a bit more heavier set. Pac Man. I think where it's really particularly useful, having identified Pac man will be to inevitably look at any other neighbors, ring doorbells or CCTV to basically see what direction he came from. And did he come from a vehicle before he went up to that sort of thing, that. That gate at the back to put his stuff over? And, and ultimately, at the end of the day, I think the key issue here is joining those two together. If they were working together, then you're doubling up your potentials for discovery of one or the other, which, I mean, I'm sure Fitz and James will be able to give you a great deal more detail on. But ultimately the two, quite often you may find, particularly in amateurs, that they will source their equipment. Equipment from similar places, unless they already have it within their wardrobe.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so that's very interesting. Like, are those, are they distinct men and are they working together and do they just look similar? Because they're both low end shoppers and this was not some high end caper. And they probably, you know, I mean, in the way I wear and look like a lot of the women I hang out with. So do they. Go ahead, James. I can see you want to get in.

[James Hamilton]

Well, I was just smiling because I, you know, we don't like coincidences at all in our business business. And this is a hell of a coincidence that you've got two males walking around within five miles of each other at 2am in the morning with backpacks and trying to enter or exit portals. That's. That's a hell of a coincidence. So for me, it's a great lead. It's something that they have to run down. Maybe it's not involved. You know, it's possible. But my money right now is it's not that I wouldn't lean that way. I would lean toward. Where the hell hell were you? Do you know, Nancy Guthrie, like, everything, everything we got is going to go to find who this person is and do a really strong interview and not create some story of, oh yeah, it's just a coincidence that he just happens to also be out with a backpack. And by the way, that second backpack, the way that he's holding it over that fence is bizarre. It's. It's very strange the way he uses his left hand to. To put it up over as if there's something in it that he doesn't want to disrupt. You'll see him do it here.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why take him, Audience? It's on his left shoulder now. He took it off. Now he's got it in his left hand and it looks like he's trying to shove it over to me. I thought he was trying to push it over and couldn't do it. And he fails. It almost looks like there's some sort of an imaginary wall there that he didn't expect to be there. And he really wanted to shove that backpack over, but he can't, and he abandons it. So he doesn't even look like he's using force, but it doesn't happen, and he takes the backpack back and walks away with it. Keep. Keep going, James.

[James Hamilton]

Well, almost like he had some type of device in there that he thought would unlock it. It looks like he's trying to, you know, swipe it or, you know, have it over the other side. It's going to somehow do something. It's bizarre the way he does that. So, you know, again, I'd like to find out who this individual is. What are you doing? And, you know, and just run it to the ground and. And don't. This is a good lead.

[Megyn Kelly]

How. How long do you think it's going to take the FBI to figure out who this guy is? Because unlike abductor man, he's not wearing a mask. And we know this guy is in. Is in Tucson, or at least was, and he, too, wasn't expecting to find his picture all over the Internet today.

[James Hamilton]

Well, I don't know if you and Fitz and Maureen talked about this earlier, but I'm shocked that we're only talking. Fitzgerald. 50,000 bucks right now. I mean, that. That reward. That's a joke.

[Megyn Kelly]

Really? Amp it up.

[James Hamilton]

Hell, yeah. $50,000. That's nothing.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, what should it be?

[James Hamilton]

I put it up to half a million dollars. It's 1112 days now. I want this woman back. What's 500 grand? We got that kind of money. You know, I. I just. For me, let's get some. Let's get some strong. Strong interest to identify these people.

[Megyn Kelly]

Are you not worried that it's going to incentivize the crazy crazies?

[James Hamilton]

You know, like, I think incentivize already we're dropping bitcoin money, and. And all that's already happened. Those horses have left the barn, as we say where I come from.

[Megyn Kelly]

That loser popped up again, too. I'll get to him in a second. I can see you want to get in fits. Go ahead.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah, I just. There's been research done about rewards over the years. Unabomber was 1 million, the highest reward ever. Osama bin Laden was 25 million. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I always prefer when people come to me wanting to reward money as opposed to some other issues, that sometimes they're just telling lies. But I think context is important about this Double pac Man. Guy for what we're calling him. I would really like to interview all the sheriffs that work, deputy sheriffs that work in that area and see what kind of transient population he looks. He looks white, he looks Caucasian. Isn't like he's an immigrant across the border, 60 some miles away. So there may be guys that roam around at night. I used to as a patrol officer, I'd shut my lights off, turn my engine off. You'd be surprised the stuff that just helps happens around you and the odd people that show up. And this is like in a suburb of Philadelphia, probably not that different from then where this area is. So I'm not ruling this guy in or out. And I said earlier it's a coincidence on steroids if in fact, you know, within the same hour time frame. We have two different things happening with guys with backpacks about five miles apart. Mark, we know the guy is the abductor. He's guilty, he did his crime. I'll. I'll suspend all, you know, his rights to being innocent here because he did something there at that house. This guy, we don't know his involvement.

[Megyn Kelly]

And look at this. Can we zero in on Pac Man? You really can see the facial hair more clearly in that shot that we're running right now. Maybe we can run again. Look at the beard. Yeah, I mean you can see it very clearly. He's got like the devil beard. Not the beard that's like all over your cheeks, but like just down at the chin. And you can't quite see what's happening above his lip or whether he's got the soul patch there. But it is a black beard, so that's.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

We'll count ourselves lucky that he chose not to wear a mask then. Or the mask. Or a mask, even a Covid type mask to cover himself. So he's gonna be identified. That was the first question you asked. That's only a matter of hours.

[Megyn Kelly]

And if he doesn't come forward? Because even if he's not part of this abduction, he certainly looks like he's up to no good at two in the morning with the backpacks and the alley. Like that does not. Whatever. I mean, we're just presuming. But. So if the guy doesn't come forward, that's even more suspicious. Right? Like the FBI. When the FBI tracks him down, they're gonna be even more suspicious of him because he knows this guy knows by now that everybody's looking for him. And why wouldn't you come forward? If it's petty anti crime and you know they're looking at you for like a possible murder, kidnapping. I don't know. What do you do?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah, the word is on the street, and again with the deputy sheriff, we don't care if you're looking to urinate or defecate or, or smoke a joint or, you know, even do a petty larceny. As you said, we want to know if you're involved in this thing. So the word is going to get out if this is a local guide who roams the neighborhoods at night. I just don't know. Is there again, a homeless encampment somewhere near there or a couple guys that hang out in a park somewhere? We don't know that. Or is it somehow tied into this thing? I mean, probably every neighborhood in the country, probably around 2am Something was happening that looks something like this. The problem is five miles away, within an hour of a major of an abduction of anyone, not to mention Nancy Guthrie. That has to be taken to its logical conclusion. This is their priority.

[Megyn Kelly]

Jacket that's similar with the round head with the beard. That's the right color and in the right place, like the facial hair. Yeah. I want to ask you guys about another development today. Hesitate to even raise it because it's just, it seems such. Such obvious bs, but. Okay, let's talk about it. You remember yesterday we talked about the fact that TMZ had received. Received a note, an email from some third party saying, I'm not the kidnapper, but I know who it is and I want somebody to give me one bitcoin, which is worth about 65, 67,000 bucks. And I will tell you who the kidnapper is. So that didn't happen. Nobody gave him his bitcoin. And then today, TMZ this morning reported the following. They've received a new email from a person who claims to know the identity of Nancy Guthrie's kidnapper. They received the email just after 8:00am Pacific Time Thursday. Okay, so 11:00 o' clock Eastern. And the person who sent the email claimed they are, quote, not being taken seriously, end quote. And they're not happy about that. They went on to say that, quote, he makes some ominous statements in the email. TMZ is cooperating with law enforcement by not disclosing specifics. One thing he makes clear, the situation has changed from Wednesday to Thursday. TMZ goes on to say, quote, as for why he wants a bitcoin, he says he will need money to lay low after identifying the kidnapper for fear of retaliation. He also worries he might be incriminated. This is A, quote, incriminated, like that Carlos guy, meaning the delivery man who was detained and released the other day. The email reportedly ends with the sender saying this is their final attempt to, quote, help. By the way, they did also report that TMZ monitored the account that he had linked to. He did link to a bitcoin account for his big deposit, and they said nothing was deposited. Nothing has been deposited thus far, at least as of the end of the day on Wednesday. So now he's mad it didn't work. Is this an obvious joke, or what does the FBI do with this?

[James Hamilton]

I just signed it to a new agent, but that's just me. You know, the serious leads are going to be handled by the serious veteran agents and some new agents going to go.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, you mean like brand new to the FBI?

[James Hamilton]

Yeah, go over there to TMZ and shag this thing. I don't know. I'm saying that with a little bit of tongue in cheek, but come on. I mean, if the FBI ran out with everything they had, with everything like that, then they wouldn't be able to really find Pac man, which is a much more credible lead than this nonsense through TMZ for one Bitcoin.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

And I assure you, there are psychics and mediums, etc, getting in touch with the family and even law enforcement. It's invariable when you work these kind of cases, saying, you know, they'll do it. Well, they would like some money. You could possibly help. They're also coming in free of charge. I'm sure that the body is within 50 miles of. Of a body of water.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Or 25 miles of railroad tracks. And I'm just saying. I'm not saying Mrs. Guthrie is a body at this point, but that's what kind of stuff they call in. I never had luck with a. With a psychic in that regard. So, yeah, this leap, you just have to say, contact the FBI. They'll give you at least $50,000, and they'll keep you anonymous. This is a game being played locally somewhere in the US or somewhere overseas, possibly even tied in to the other bitcoin people and their scams that they tried to run earlier.

[Megyn Kelly]

This is. This is a federal offense. I mean, I think this is obstruction of justice, what they're doing here. They're distracting the FBI from solving an actual crime and purporting to have information that they, we believe, do not have. That's. They're lying. And if they told that lie to the face of an FBI agent, it would be another crime. Go ahead.

[Will Geddes]

Will, I mean, I agree with the chaps. I mean, I've dealt with a number of ransom demands and coming through various different mediums, and there's always this kind of small amount that is requested. I know 65,000 doesn't sound like a small amount, but in relative terms, it's a very, very small amount. And if you have someone who is offering to basically say, well, I will give you all that critical information, I'll tell you where the hostage is, but is not able to provide any more substance or any more gravity to that claim. It is just white noise. It's just interference. And again, I agree with. Agree with James entirely and fit that that's something which is batted off to one side. And there are many ways to trace it from an email account. There are lots of very surreptitious ways that I may have allegedly utilized in the past to try and identify the IP address and the actual user themselves. But again, there's a lot of information like what sort of email account? Is it a disposable one? Is it a secure one? You know, again, there's so much intelligence you can get just from those communications.

[Megyn Kelly]

Are you at all surprised, Will, that they haven't caught whoever's behind those other bitcoin demands who is either pretending to be the kidnapper or possibly is the kidnapper? Are you surprised? Here we are 11 days in, and they still haven't made an arrest there?

[Will Geddes]

Well, again, they may not have made an arrest. I mean, I certainly know that the authorities and most certainly the FBI will have the ability to reverse engine near blockchain. You know, blockchain used to be a very, very secure way of people being able to utilize, obviously, the exchange of bitcoins. And it was used very much by the dark Web, and it was used by various sort of illicit and criminal enterprises. But nowadays you can actually reverse engineer and trace back who is the actual wallet owner. So there's a good chance, I mean, the chaps will probably be able to give you a better grasp on this. But in my estimation, they probably may have arrested them or they're observing them to see whether they have any further intelligence value.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, well, that would be very good news. I will say this. My team's reminding me that TMZ has been getting all of these communications via an anonymous tip form. And that's what the other two news organizations, that's how I think why they were chosen too, because, well, they're local and they had anonymous tip lines, too. That's how this person's Been going in. So, like, not through a traditional email. Exactly. I don't know. Maybe that makes it tougher. And if so, that person. That person has some level of sophistication. You know, the bitcoin person, the one who's asking for the money in USD.

[Will Geddes]

Yeah, I mean, my. I've not often. Sorry, Jeff. So just quickly in on this one. I know of enough organizations that have anonymous lines, whether it be for whistleblowing or other otherwise that aren't necessarily as anonymous as one might imagine.

[Megyn Kelly]

Not. Not like when the feds are involved. Okay, we'll do. We'll do fits and then. James, go ahead.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

If I can add here sort of a public statement to everyone who's listening, if you have information about this case we've sent. We've seen enough of abduction, man. You have nothing to worry about. I guarantee you you're going to be safe. This is not some worldwide syndicate involved in this. This is not even, you know, organized crime. This is someone that, if you have information, you know, call it get away. If you have to move out of a house for a few days, this. This will not come back to harm you. This guy is an opportunist. Some pre. Planning involved perhaps. Not a whole lot I think we're learning here. But this guy, besides what he did to Mrs. Guthrie, and hopefully she's still with us, I'm still keeping, you know, positive outlook there. But this guy, he's probably more of a menace to himself than anything else. Certainly any potential witnesses out there. So please contact the FBI. I put out some pointers yesterday with you, Megan. Behavioral characteristics of what this guy's doing. Now, please check those out. And. And that's what he's doing, and that's what he's not doing. And this is going to be who he is.

[Megyn Kelly]

Go ahead, James.

[James Hamilton]

Oh, I just. I. I maybe shouldn't smile as much as I am, but it reminds me a lot of, you know, DBQ Cooper and Jimmy Hoffa. I mean, as an FBI agent, we probably didn't go a month without somebody coming forward and saying, yeah, I know who D.B. cooper was. I know who he really was. Or I know exactly where Jimmy Hoffa's buried. And if you give me X, you know, I'll tell you, well, it never happened, you know, and just. I'm just smiling about it because these cases bring out those types of people and those types of allegations.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, I have to end it on this because there's a lot of speculation online, and we've got a lot of emails about this. This about the pacemaker, because, you know, they keep going back to Annie and Tomas's house, and that could be because Annie and Tomas are suspects, or it could be because Nancy was there earlier the evening that she disappeared, and they think there's more clues somehow to glean. Many people have wondered, is it possible that they think she died there, that. That Nancy was killed earlier than we think, and that she died there. Now, I think that fell apart when we saw abductor man ringing the doorbell or messing with the doorbell. Like, the story that an abductor showed up is not fake. And I don't believe. I just don't believe there's any way she was killed earlier in the evening. Because. And I mean, you guys, tell me what you know. The pacemaker. The pace. Pacemaker would have shown an event. And a lot of people have been writing in saying the pacemaker doesn't stop just because the person's killed. Well, I know that. I know that. Which is why there's some remote chance that if you took her phone and turned on the pacemaker app and started walking around Tucson, you might actually connect with the pacemaker. Even if Nancy is no longer with us, I mean, the odds are slim. You have to be. I've heard any place from 10ft to 30ft in order for them to sink. But I'm not saying that the pacemaker. It's not about whether the pacemaker goes dormant when the person has died. But I have yet to find a cardiologist or anesthesiologist to tell me anything other than if the heart has any sort of a major event, including that it stops beating, that it wouldn't communicate that to the phone. So obviously there'd be no communication after 2:28 on the night she went missing because they had stopped syncing. But prior to that point, we're told by law enforcement they were syncing. There was no problem with the pacemaker syncing with the phone. And so even with a delay in download information, you know, like if the last information went at 2:27, it might take an hour or two for it to actually download that onto the phone. Because I can, I guess there's some sort of a lag in the delay. You would know if the heart had stopped beating, if this patient's heart completely stopped. I just can't get past that. And clearly law enforcement agrees with me, or this whole thing is a wild goose chase. If that sheriff, and I'm sure he spoke to the pacemaker doctor, to the cardiologist, and knows exactly how it works in this case. There is no way the FBI would be putting us through all of this if they really had reason to believe she died, that Nancy's no longer with us. Why would he be saying I have to believe she's alive, that she's still out there and talking with the family about doing the hostage videos and all that? Like you guys just tell me once and for all, do you have any reason to believe that law enforcement thinks she died prior to 2:28am I see.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

No indications of law enforcement believing that.

[James Hamilton]

I agree with Fitz.

[Will Geddes]

Yeah, likewise.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean that. So what that answers for me is A, Nancy Guthrie had the scare of her life when that man showed up in her bedroom in the wee hours of that morning. And B, the reason they are going back to Annie's and Tommaso's house all the time, I think, is they're wondering if they had anything to do with it. I just don't. Like. I don't understand why you'd be interviewing the neighbors over and over and over. And Phil Holloway, who's out there for us, we didn't get to this in his hit, but he's been talking to the neighbors and the neighbors told him that they keep getting asked about Annie and Tommaso and what are they like, you know, this is what the FBI and the sheriff's deputies are asking the neighbors. And he also mentioned, for what, what it's worth, that they're very interested in like a phone. Have they seen evidence of any phone anywhere? Maybe they're looking for evidence of that the guy may have dropped, et cetera. Anyway, I don't mean to condemn them, but I just think that's them doing their shoe leather FBI work, is it? Not like we've talked about family, friends, associates, neighbors, whatever. And there's no reason to be asking the neighbors what these two are like going back there time and time again if you're not potentially interested in them.

[Will Geddes]

Yeah, I mean, there's one question that's sort of been raised in my. In my. In the back of my mind, Megan, which again, I'd be interested in the other chaps and what they have to say is whether there's. That the network has been contacted, the cellular network, to actually do the mapping from the cell towers near to obviously Nancy's house and also to the citizens visitors house to determine obviously the IMEIs of whichever cell phones were in the area at that particular time. And I know certainly in terms of geolocation, you can get it down to 50ft if obviously there are sufficient cell towers in the area so we're not looking at enormous amounts of space. But you can isolate it. And the intelligence agencies over here in the UK for example, have used that very efficiently to detect terrorists, for example, who have been using burn as cells. But they've got their own cells with them when they've been detected, obviously going off and making those calls rather than leaving their own cell phones behind. So I'd be interested to see what cell phone data has been gathered by obviously the bureau and. And what information is isolating it. Maybe certain recognized cell phones have been identified or the im.

[Megyn Kelly]

Go ahead.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

If we've discussed this before. I forget, how many children does Annie and Tommaso have and how old are they?

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't remember. I don't know the answer.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

They would be a valuable source of information and depending on their age. There are experts within the FBI and they certainly contract with people that have expertise in interviewing children. Now it'd be very interesting if they would permit their children to be independently interviewed, viewed by professionals.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

And again, I'm not casting aspersions here. I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

No.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

But just to get every single bit of this story lined up. What did you hear Mommy say Daddy say Grandma. How was it that night? So they would be. We don't bring. We haven't heard anything about that. At least I haven't. But I certainly want to know. I would certainly want to know if they've been interviewed and I. I would. They would be. The investigators would have been a remiss if they haven't taken them apart. It was interesting in The Ramsey case, JonBenet Ramsey, they wouldn't let him be Burke be interviewed for months and months at a time. Finally they did, you know, accede to it. So I'm assuming this will be different. But I would like to know what those kids have to say. And as I said earlier on, as a young police officer working homicide cases, well before the Internet, you learn so much about people with extended family, friends, neighbors, workmates, schoolmates. There's just so much there. Doesn't mean anyone's guilty of a crime. But did someone have an affair and not admit to it? Do they have someone on the side, a boy or a girlfriend? And they don't want. They lie about that at first. Well, why did you lie? I don't want my wife finding out. Don't want my husband finding out. I'm not saying that's what happened here with Annie and Tommaso, but there's going to be Some things uncomfortable for them to admit that they're going to have to. Agents have to look that down. Doesn't mean they were involved in the death of their mother or mother in law. But there's a lot that we're not hearing about this. And the kids may know something.

[Megyn Kelly]

Parade magazine reports that they have one son together, but we don't know how old he is. I think they only got married 2006. I think they got married in 2006. So I suppose if you, if you assume they didn't have children until they got married. He's no more than 20 years old. He could be younger than that. I don't know. It's been precious little information about who else is living in that house or even really about them. There's really not much information at all about them. She's a poet, he's a part time middle school teacher and a band member. They don't have a lot of money. I mean, that's gotta be clear. Everybody knows a poet and a part time middle school teacher are not rich, they live in a nice house. But I think it could be one of those situations where it just depreciated because it's worth in the mid $600,000 range. I don't know how they're supporting themselves. I mean, very few poets are. You know, Joseph Massey is the official poet of the Megyn Kelly show. He's constantly writing about how difficult it is to pay your bills as a poet. So I don't think it's a lucrative profession. I'm sure they're looking at their finances.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

And the dynamics of a sibling who's a multimillionaire. Again, no one's accusing them of anything. Can sometimes that cause problems in the family? It's possible.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, you'd be talking about it. I mean, I guess that's really what we're getting to as you guys as agents. Wouldn't that be a part of the discussion? You got the one sister who has no money and you got the other one who's got tens of millions of dollars and the one sister's doing all the hard labor with the mom and the other sister's not. And maybe there's resentment there. You know, they don't, they're not telegraphing that. They're telegraphing closeness. But I mean, I've told you this before, I've told the audience before. Everything you see telegraphed from the Today show about how close everybody is is a lie. It is a lie, trust me. They are about building images over There to sell ads. I mean, that's truly what it is. I was there. I was on the inside. I was asked to be part of this. So. So you can't go by what you see in the family reels about how tight everybody is. That's bullshit TV fake stuff. So we don't know what's what. But I can see that dynamic potentially causing some resentment. And I'm sure you tell me and James, you take it like, would that be something the FBI is kicking around and then looking into?

[James Hamilton]

Yeah, I think first of all, I will come back to Will's point in a second. But let's key in on where you were, Megan, and talking about motive. You know, we always kind of start there, you know, who, who has motive, who would want this individual hurt. And invariably you look at the family, invariably you look at, you know, who saw them last in this case, the family. And then you just mentioned a lot of dynamics that add even more intrigue to the family. And so certainly that's a line. But just as you're saying that, I guess the Today show is not, not all as rosy as it appears. You know, that happens also in these big cases. Okay? So they're going to go and have press conferences and they're going to use words like partners and the FBI and our partners, and that's all fine. But at the end of the day, someone is behind the scenes actually, you know, driving case strategy. And, and hopefully that is a symbiotic relationship right now and not dispersed where the sheriff's office is doing, doing one thing, the FBI is doing one thing, maybe the state police is doing one thing. That's a recipe for disaster. So you need to have some consistency with regards to the strategy. And certainly, you know, if I was running it, you'd have a group of investigators who are, okay, you have the family, right. Then you have another group of investigators who are handling these crazy ass leads that are coming in about, you know, the tmz, whatever. Right? You got that. Then you got a bucket of investigators who are going out, out looking for a black glove on the side of the road. Right? But somebody's got it behind. Yeah, somebody behind all that is driving case strategy. Right. And so that what we're doing is we're not spending so much. And I've seen this happen and Fist might have seen this too, where the agents are really working, you know, on a certain credible lead. And then you find that the headshed in our case, the SAC and the ASAC are running their own, you know, part of the investigation and doing interviews you don't even know about. And that happened to me on a big case we were working. And that's frustrating as hell. But, yeah, certainly those things that you mentioned are being looked at with regards to families. That's just how it is. I mean, John Monet Ramsey is a great example. And dovetailing that where Will is going, yes, with the cell phones and yes, the FBI has their own unit that just does those types of things. That's really all I'm going to really say about it. But I will say, knowing that technology, I am concerned. Concerned that Here we are 12 days later and we're. We don't have her body. That that makes me very nervous because I, you know, I've been involved in cases where we never got her back. You know, I can name, I can name one right now, you know, in South Carolina that we never got her back. And we think we know who did it. But, you know, that's what makes me nervous is I, I really would hope we'd have a break by now and something.

[Will Geddes]

Yeah, I think keeping on the. I mean, Megan, another thing which was crossing my mind and again, I, I'd be interested obviously in everybody's thoughts on this is that I certainly know of a number of people who have pacemakers and who are in a fairly volatile or certainly delicate disposition. And the sister being so close and certainly being involved in trying to assist, obviously, and provide support to Nancy that they, that maybe Nancy, did she have an emergency response tag which she can press in the event that she may be having a heart attack or is in distress or falls over like a lot of seniors will have. And whether that they had that technology and whether that was utilized.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's a good question. I don't know. I haven't heard anything about the emergency response necklace. And it's a good question, though, because that'd be your first move if somebody came into your bedroom in the middle of the night. They haven't mentioned anything about it, which suggests to me maybe not. And they did say that while she was, was limited physically, I mean, she could move, she had a cane. She wasn't like wheelchair bound. So it is. I don't know. It's possible she didn't opt for that. It's one of those things, the medic alert. It's like one of those before and after moments when, you know, you're getting old. My mom put it at when Mr. Rogers starts to look hot. That's when she knew she'd crossed over to the dark side. Well, God bless her. God bless my mom. God bless Nancy. Nancy. And the prayers continue as we await going into day 12. Better news on this investigation, guys. Thank you all so much.

[James Hamilton]

You're so welcome. Thanks for having us.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

Really grateful. Wow, what a panel. They're so great. We're so lucky. All right, we're going to leave it there for today, but we will be back tomorrow with any updates and relevant information. And if you have any thoughts you want to share with us, please send them to me. It's Megan M e g y naganc kelly.com we'll talk to you more often. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda and no fear.

[James Hamilton]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[Will Geddes]

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