Dedicated With Doug Brunt Father’s Day Book Picks With: Jennifer Egan, Jay McInerney, David Grann

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Dedicated With Doug Brunt: Father’s Day Book Picks Featuring Jennifer Egan, Jay McInerney, and David Grann"

Release Date: June 13, 2025

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Introduction and Setting the Scene

In this special Father's Day episode of "Dedicated with Doug Brunt," host Doug Brunt welcomes three esteemed authors—Jennifer Egan, Jay McInerney, and David Grann—to curate a list of the best books for Father's Day. The episode promises a rich discussion where each author recommends three books, culminating in a comprehensive list of nine must-reads for the occasion. The conversation is set against the backdrop of a convivial atmosphere, complete with champagne tasting, adding a personal and relaxed touch to the literary discourse.

Key Moments:

• [01:43] Doug Brunt introduces the guest authors and outlines the episode's objective: compiling the top nine Father's Day book picks.
• [03:00] A toast is made with Cristal champagne, highlighting the celebratory nature of the discussion.

Jennifer Egan’s Book Picks

Jennifer Egan, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author, offers insightful selections rooted in crime and mystery genres, emphasizing psychological depth and narrative complexity.

1. Agatha Christie’s Poirot Mystery

   • [03:19] Egan praises Agatha Christie's whodunit for its intricate plot and psychological acuity.
   • Notable Quote: "It's a Poirot mystery told in the first person with a wonderful narrative voice. It's one of her early books and the one that I've enjoyed the most of all."

2. Chester Himes’ A Rage in Harlem

   • [05:25] Egan highlights Chester Himes' unique blend of comedy and horror, set against the vibrant backdrop of Harlem.
   • Notable Quote: "The grotesqueness is very unexpected, as is the comedy. It delivers searing social commentary about life in Harlem with sheer delight."

3. Robert Stone’s A Flag for Sunrise

   • [08:15] Egan appreciates Stone's multi-perspective narrative set in a fictional Latin American country on the brink of revolution.
   • Notable Quote: "Stone follows several different points of view as various individuals converge in a climactic, violent situation. It's exciting and full of wonderful set pieces."

Additional Insights:

• [12:51] Egan shares her personal history with these books, including teaching A Flag for Sunrise at the University of Pennsylvania.
• [27:55] She adds a humorous note about A Fan's Notes by Frederick Exley, recounting how it led to a friendship between Exley and Frank Gifford.

Jay McInerney’s Book Picks

Jay McInerney, known for his contributions to modern literature, ventures into suspense and literary thrillers, showcasing his versatility and passion for intricate storytelling.

1. Len Dayton’s Berlin Game

   • [14:06] McInerney shares his newfound love for suspense novels, comparing Dayton's work favorably to John Le Carre.
   • Notable Quote: "Once I started it, I couldn't put it down. The granularity of the observation and the writing is as good as Le Carre's better work."

2. Frederick Exley’s A Fan's Notes

   • [20:31] He discusses the autobiographical nature of Exley’s work, praising its honesty and stylistic brilliance.
   • Notable Quote: "It's incredibly compelling. Watching this guy trip over his own feet while it's so beautifully written is exhilarating."

3. James Salter’s Light Years

   • [21:55] McInerney lauds Salter's exceptional stylistic prowess and the novel's profound exploration of marriage.
   • Notable Quote: "Salter presents such a beautiful picture from the outside that you barely realize the marriage is falling apart until it's too late."

4. Louise Penny’s The Gray Wolf

   • [35:00] He recommends Penny's latest installment in her series, appreciating the character depth and atmospheric storytelling.
   • Notable Quote: "Gamache is a detective with decency and wisdom, providing comfort in a tumultuous world."

Additional Insights:

• [25:26] McInerney reminisces about his friendship with James Salter and the influence Salter had on his own writing.
• [40:23] He reflects on the interconnectedness of being both a reader and a writer, emphasizing the joy of discovering beloved authors.

David Grann’s Book Picks

David Grann, renowned for his investigative journalism and narrative nonfiction, brings a blend of historical depth and thrilling narratives to his Father's Day recommendations.

1. Candice Millard’s River of Doubt

   • [30:17] Grann praises Millard's work for its compelling narrative that intertwines historical exploration with personal drama.
   • Notable Quote: "It's a hell of a story that places Teddy Roosevelt in the midst of mapping an uncharted Amazonian river. The Amazon itself is almost a character of its own."

2. Ian McGuire’s The North Water

   • [34:14] He commends McGuire’s sea novel for its raw depiction of human nature and thematic depth.
   • Notable Quote: "The sea becomes a biblical landscape testing human beings, exploring the savagery and complexity of human nature."

3. Eric Ambler’s Epitaph for a Spy

   • [30:17] Grann highlights Ambler's pioneering role in the suspense novel genre, emphasizing the ordinary individual's entanglement in espionage.
   • Notable Quote: "Ambler writes about the ordinary person caught in something larger than himself, making it a credible and engaging spy novel."

Additional Insights:

• [26:38] Grann references a New Yorker profile on James Salter that inspired his appreciation for Salter’s prose.
• [33:25] He discusses his reading habits, balancing nonfiction research with engrossing fiction to maintain narrative sensibilities.

Discussions on Genre and Writing Styles

Throughout the episode, the authors delve into the nuances of their chosen genres, exploring how stylistic choices and narrative structures influence reader engagement.

• Whodunits vs. Suspense Thrillers:

  • Jennifer Egan contrasts the psychological depth required for a successful whodunit with the often superficial plots found in contemporary media.
  • Jay McInerney emphasizes the importance of writing quality over plot mechanics, citing the coherence and allure of Len Dayton’s Berlin Game.

• Stylistic Excellence:

  • Both Egan and McInerney admire James Salter’s unique sentence construction and stylistic elegance, noting its rarity and impact.
  • David Grann highlights how exceptional sentence crafting elevates a novel beyond its storyline, using The North Water as a prime example.

• Character Development and Atmosphere:

  • Louise Penny’s The Gray Wolf is praised for its character-driven narrative, offering a comforting presence through Detective Gamache.
  • The authors discuss the use of setting as a narrative device, comparing Christie’s isolated environments with broader community settings that add color and humor.

Notable Quote:

• [28:31] Grann remarks, "What ultimately makes a great novel succeed and rise above even its story is the sentences."

Personal Reflections and Final Thoughts

The conversation shifts to personal anecdotes and reflections on the authors' relationships with their favorite books and fellow writers.

• Friendships and Influences:

  • McInerney recounts his close friendship with James Salter and how Salter’s hospitality influenced his own writing environment.
  • Egan shares the serendipitous friendship between Frederick Exley and Frank Gifford, sparked by the latter's admiration for Exley’s A Fan’s Notes.

• Reading Habits:

  • Jennifer Egan discusses her teaching experience with crime fiction, highlighting its educational value in understanding genre conventions and genre-bending.
  • David Grann describes his preference for listening to audiobooks while walking, particularly enjoying Louise Penny’s series despite initial setbacks with narrators.

• Father’s Day Sentiments:

  • The authors express heartfelt wishes for Father's Day, intertwining their literary discussions with personal hopes and familial connections.
  • [45:09] David Grann simply states, "Happy Father's Day," encapsulating the episode's celebratory tone.

Notable Quote:

• [40:07] Doug Brunt reflects, "It's so fun to hear you guys talk about the work of others because I've read all of your work and to imagine you guys perusing the bookstore shelves."

Conclusion and Closing Remarks

As the episode winds down, the authors finalize their book selections through a lighthearted and competitive exchange, symbolizing the collaborative yet individual nature of literary appreciation.

• Book Selection Process:

  • Each author selects two books from the compiled list, reflecting their personal tastes and the diverse genres discussed.
  • [43:35] Jay McInerney opts for Chester Himes’ A Rage in Harlem and Louise Penny’s The Gray Wolf.
  • [43:57] David Grann chooses Robert Stone’s A Flag for Sunrise and James Salter’s Light Years.
  • [44:37] Doug Brunt selects Agatha Christie’s Poirot mystery, expressing eagerness to delve into the recommended titles.
  • [43:05] Jennifer Egan picks Candice Millard’s River of Doubt and Len Dayton’s Berlin Game.

• Final Toast and Farewells:

  • The episode concludes with a collective toast, reinforcing the camaraderie among the authors.
  • [45:14] David Grann adds a playful desire for books from his children, merging personal aspirations with literary passions.

Notable Quote:

• [45:17] Doug Brunt signs off with, "Happy Father's Day," encapsulating the episode's essence.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jennifer Egan on Agatha Christie:

  • "It's a Poirot mystery told in the first person with a wonderful narrative voice. It's one of her early books and the one that I've enjoyed the most of all." [03:21]

• Doug Brunt on Modern Whodunits:

  • "Half the shows I see on Netflix that are meant to be whodunit mysteries... feels like it was written in about a day." [05:10]

• Jay McInerney on Berlin Game:

  • "Once I started it, I couldn't put it down. The granularity of the observation and the writing is as good as Le Carre's better work." [14:06]

• David Grann on River of Doubt:

  • "The Amazon itself is almost a character of its own." [30:17]

• Jennifer Egan on A Flag for Sunrise:

  • "Stone follows several different points of view as various individuals converge in a climactic, violent situation. It's exciting and full of wonderful set pieces." [08:15]

• Doug Brunt on Book Selection Fun:

  • "It's so fun to hear you guys talk about the work of others because I've read all of your work and to imagine you guys perusing the bookstore shelves." [40:07]

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Conclusion

This Father's Day episode of "Dedicated with Doug Brunt" offers a treasure trove of literary recommendations from three powerhouse authors. Through engaging discussions, personal anecdotes, and thoughtful analyses, Jennifer Egan, Jay McInerney, and David Grann not only curate a diverse selection of books but also provide deeper insights into the craft of writing and the impact of storytelling. Whether you're a fan of classic mysteries, gripping thrillers, or profound narrative nonfiction, this episode serves as a comprehensive guide to enriching your Father's Day reading list.

Transcript

[Doug Brunt]

Dedicated is expanding. We are now filming our segments. We are doing some slick new video inside the SiriusXM studios. So if you want to see me fixing the cocktails and having conversations with our awesome guests, go to YouTube, Facebook, Instagram or the SiriusXM app and you can see us in studio.

[Jennifer Egan]

Welcome to Dedicated with Doug Brunt. You have just gained access to an exclusive insider's look at the lives and works of some of your favorite authors.

[Jay McInerney]

Enter your conversations with the world's greatest.

[Jennifer Egan]

Writers as they discuss their writing, lifestyle, creative process, latest work and behind the scenes revelations.

[Doug Brunt]

Welcome to a special episode of Dedicated. Today we're going to bring you not just a list of the best books, we're going to bring you the best list of the best books for Father's Day. And to do that, we have brought in three of the world's greatest writers who will each recommend three books. So at the end of the show, you have nine books on your list. We are joined by Jennifer Egan, Pulitzer Prize winning author of A Visit from the goon squad, Jay McInerney, author of the decade defining novel Bright Lights, Big City, and David Grann, who has carved out a permanent piece of real estate on the bestseller list with his books the Wager and Killers of the Flower Moon. Esteemed authors, welcome.

[Jennifer Egan]

Thank you, thank you.

[Doug Brunt]

Thrilled to have you here. We are going to be sipping champagne while we build our list of nine. And Sirius XM is so happy to have you three in the building that I'm happy to tell you we'll be drinking Cristal.

[Jay McInerney]

Cristal, right.

[David Grann]

Moving up in the world.

[Doug Brunt]

So I'm gonna open this without making too big a mess.

[David Grann]

How's your insurance?

[Jay McInerney]

As long as he wasn't shaken.

[Doug Brunt]

And I know this is sort of a Father's Day, you know, the timing of the release is kind of Father's Day and books are kind of a stalwart, but what are some other. Jay, you're sort of a watch collector. That's not a bad.

[Jay McInerney]

You could saber it.

[Doug Brunt]

Oh, if I had to saber that would really. I think that might be the last show we do.

[Jay McInerney]

Yeah, I've seen so many people try to fail to do that that it, it might not be worth the effort.

[Doug Brunt]

I just saw a clip of that online where it just shattered the bottle.

[Jennifer Egan]

Oh, man.

[Jay McInerney]

Terrible, terrible.

[Doug Brunt]

But Jay, you're, you're a watch collector, right? That's a Father's Day.

[Jennifer Egan]

That's a very nice watch, actually.

[Doug Brunt]

More expensive than a book.

[Jay McInerney]

Yes, unfortunately, it's a, it's, it's an expensive habit, especially.

[Jennifer Egan]

How many watches do you have?

[Jay McInerney]

I'm about 20. I recently traded in five or six. Yeah, I'm trying. I'm sure. The troubles. You know, there's only so many watches you can wear, so I. I'm. I'm narrowing it down a bit.

[Jennifer Egan]

Do you have special watch purveyors that you like to go to?

[Jay McInerney]

Yeah, I have a book. I have a book dealer.

[Doug Brunt]

Cool.

[Jay McInerney]

Several watch dealers and several wine dealers. There we go.

[Doug Brunt]

All right, we are in.

[David Grann]

All right.

[Jay McInerney]

All right.

[Doug Brunt]

Cheers. Great to see you all.

[Jennifer Egan]

Cheers. Thank you for having us.

[David Grann]

Cheers.

[Jay McInerney]

Cheers.

[Jennifer Egan]

Yum.

[Doug Brunt]

Might turn out most foam. I'm already going back for.

[David Grann]

For more.

[Doug Brunt]

So, Jenny, may we start with you?

[Jennifer Egan]

Yes.

[Doug Brunt]

And your. Your three books.

[Jennifer Egan]

So I went with a crime theme, and I'm gonna actually go, as it happens, in chronological order, starting with Agatha Christie. Obviously, as we all know, Agatha Christie wrote many books, and this is, in my opinion, her best. I haven't read all of them, but I'm interested. I'm fascinated by whodunits and sort of what makes a whodunit work. And in a way, it feels like there are many boxes that you need to check to have a successful whodunit. One is, you know, obviously, is the. Is the killer a surprise? But not just that, because ideally, before we get to that surprise, we fall through what I've sort of come to think of as a series of trap doors, people that we think are the killer. And then, boom, we fall through that, and then we think it's this one, and boom, we fall through that. So achieving that and then the final surprise is really important, but in a way that the even harder thing that I think is so rare for whodunit to achieve is to have enough kind of psychological acuity that we actually want to reread it. I mean, think about it. How many times do you ever want to reread whodunit? Very seldom. This one, I think, actually achieves all of those things. I can't say too much about it, of course, because it's the nature of whodunit that you have to be pretty mum in describing the plot. But what I will say is that it's a Poirot mystery and he comes in as a sort of unexpected element. He's. He's a sort of next door neighbor who gets involved in trying to solve the crime. And it has a. It's told in the first person. It has a wonderful kind of narrative voice. It's one of her early books. And in my. And the one that I'VE enjoyed the most of all of her.

[Doug Brunt]

That sounds. I love that, the complexity of the plot. Because now, these days, when I. Half the shows I see on Netflix that are meant to be whodunit mysteries, I finished it and I'm like, why did I just waste it? Feels like it was written in about a day. The plot, the ending makes no sense. They cannot land it. So this sounds terrific.

[Jennifer Egan]

Well, the thing is that I think that can happen really easily because to find someone who hasn't been a suspect, someone that the reader hasn't thought of, you know, how does it. How do you hit that amazing mix of surprise and inevitability. And in a way, it's a challenge that I think one has with any work of fiction, but it is crystallized in the who done it? Because if it's too far afield, you have surprise, but it's nonsense. So the inevitability is missing. If you have too much inevitability, it's exactly who the reader thought was the killer. So very hard to pull it off.

[Doug Brunt]

Is this one of the ones where she uses the setting as kind of a device? Like, the 10 little Indians are on an island or Murder on the Orient Express. They're all on a train. She often puts them in a place where they are sort of trapped. And it's all happening.

[Jennifer Egan]

It is in a stately home, but they are not entirely trapped. And I think that's one reason I really like it, because I find those. Those kind of entrapment settings to be a little too much like door A, door B or door C. This is in a community. And I think maybe. Actually I hadn't thought of it. That, I think, is why I like it better than a lot of those famous ones, which, of course, work so well for a movie because you've got everyone in one place. But to me, that insularity on the page often results in a kind of almost a mathematical kind of dryness. And this has more color to it and a lot of humor as well. So anyway, so that is. I highly recommend. Number two is Chester Himes, A Rage in Harlem. So wonderful crime writer. He actually did write who done It. But this is not a whodunit, but his. His. He has a. His novels all take place in Harlem. He was writing in the 40s and the 50s. He was a very success writer. In fact, he had been imprisoned for many years for a crime that he, you know, did commit. But he began writing in prison and became very successful after he got out. He has a pair of detective Police officers who are African American and working in Harlem. Their position is very tricky because they are policing their own community. What I love about a Rage in Harlem, I will also say for audiobook lovers. Samuel Jackson is the narrator of the audiobook of the and he is dynamite. This is actually a comic crime novel that also has elements of horror. It's quite grotesque in moments, sort of hilariously grotesque. And what I really love about it is that the grotesqueness is very unexpected, as is the comedy. So what Himes does is he sort of sets up a series of expectations which are that this is going to be a kind of light hearted book. It feels like it's sort of silly in a way because it involves a guy who is a very gullible protagonist who is immediately fleeced of money by people who tell him that they can turn $10 bills into $100 bills by putting them into an oven and sort of turning it on. It's called the. The Blow and the Idea. And unfortunately, of course, what. What ends up happening is that he loses all of his $10 bills and he works in a funeral parlor. So he. In. In his wild efforts to try to reclaim this money, he ends up stealing from his boss and sort of getting deeper. He gambles and loses. He gets deeper and deeper and deeper into trouble. And it feels as though, you know, nothing can really go wrong here because he's such a lovable figure. But he also has an identical twin brother who is a heroin addict who dresses up as a nun and raises money on the street for the Sisters of Mercy in drag. And so this. He enlists his brother to help him and wildness ensues. It is. I mean, it's a very short novel and it is a wonderful kind of wild ride. The last thing I'll say about it, and the really unexpected part of it is that in this kind of comic, crazy world, what ultimately emerges very unexpectedly is some pretty searing social commentary about life in Harlem. And so it's a kind of stealth, a stealth manifesto almost, which is. Which never appears as such, but leaves us with a really strong impression of racial injustice, but it's delivered with sheer delight. That's a lot to do in one book. Number three, published in 1981, A Flag for Sunrise by Robert Stone, one of my favorite writers. I feel like he has been a bit eclipsed. He died in 2015 and I don't hear his books talked about very much and I would love to have that change. I think he really was a wonderful writer. This is also a crime novel. Of sorts. But Stone has a kind of approach that he uses in many of his books, which is that he follows several different points of view as various individuals converge in a kind of climactic, violent situation. And the setting for this is a fictional Latin American country on the verge of revolution. And we have gunrunners approaching there with. With ammunition, hidden in a shrimp boat. We've got a kind of psychotic Coast Guard service member who has resigned, killed his dogs and left his child. And we don't know what is going on with him. We've got a nun who is part of the revolutionary process. And a sort of anthropologist who finds himself in the middle of all this. It feels, you know, it feels of its moment in the best way. So published in 81. What we really feel is the presence of the Vietnam War still in a way that we don't really feel the weight of that today. In the same way, it certainly comes across as raising questions about American interventions. But finally, as with any really good book, it's just exciting and full of. I think what I think of as Stone's signature element are just these wonderful set pieces. There's a moment where the anthropologist dives under a coral reef and sort of feels the presence of some tremendous darkness, some sort of shadow of danger. And we don't know if it's sort of natural or supernatural or just psychological. And the scene of the gun runners who end up employing the kind of psychopathic ex Coast Guard guy who ends up being very attracted to the wife of the couple and the gun runners. You can imagine. Exciting stuff. Really recommend it.

[Doug Brunt]

These are all. Do you remember when you first read these? Or when these were first introduced to you somehow?

[Jennifer Egan]

A Flag for Sunrise, I think I read. Not long after it came out, I think I read it. I was, you know, I sort of arrived in New York in 87, I think, already a Stone fan. So I read that sort of contemporaneously with its publication, Chester Himes. I read in the last few years because I've gotten very interested in crime fiction. And I actually taught it a year ago at the University of Pennsylvania in a literature course I was teaching. And that was a lot of fun, actually. It was a really. It was an interest book to teach in that. To teach in a literature course. But also a way to think about genre and the ways. What genre, how it works, how it sort of sets up certain things that we know will happen. And then in a way, the success of a genre novel lies in how. How in what ways. It can kind of surprise Us, despite those rules. And then Ackroyd, I think I read that actually. Also in the last like five years, I had read many Agatha Christie's and this was one I hadn't read. And I just loved it.

[Doug Brunt]

Well, these are terrific. Thank you. By the way, as your lists were coming in, I realized I. I am 0 for 9 on all these books. I haven't read anything. So I'm excited for. My list has gotten massive now of books to read.

[Jay McInerney]

Well, I agree about Robert Stone that he should be more read. He was actually a pretty good friend of mine and I first got hooked on Dog Soldiers.

[Jennifer Egan]

Yeah, that was a really good book.

[Jay McInerney]

I think the prior notes a little bit.

[Jennifer Egan]

Yeah. And his first was.

[Jay McInerney]

His books are. I mean, they're like on the verge of being really literary thrillers, but they're not. They're not whodunits. They're. They're just suspenseful and violent and scary.

[Jennifer Egan]

Yeah.

[Doug Brunt]

Any book to film on on these?

[Jennifer Egan]

I don't know, actually, I think they. I would.

[Jay McInerney]

I think Dog Soldiers has made to a film.

[Jennifer Egan]

Dog Soldiers has been. I don't know about A Flag for Sunrise. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them have been, but obviously not successfully enough that we know about it. But I think they may all have made it to the screen in one form or another. I know a number of Himes novels I think did great.

[Doug Brunt]

Jay McInerney.

[Jay McInerney]

Well, I'm going to start with my crime thriller because I actually am not really a reader of crime fiction and. And suspense novels, but I think for Christmas, my friend Morgan Entrekin, who's the publisher of Grove Atlantic, gave me this Len Dayton novel called Berlin Game. And of course, I'd heard of Len Dayton. He's one of the most successful novelists of all time. But I never read one. And I just found myself somewhere where. That was the book I had in my hand. And once I started it, I couldn't put it down, as we often say, of very suspenseful books. But I was also. I was so impressed with the writing because the one writer whose suspense writing I have read is John Le Carre. And this struck me as every bit as good as Le Carre's better work. And I mean, the granularity of the. Of the. Of the. Of the observation and the writing. I mean, the plot is very compelling, but. But the way that scenes are set, characters are drawn, even the dialogue, it was so impressive to a novelist such as myself. And I. I couldn't. Yeah, I just. I couldn't turn away and it's a very intricate plot which involves of course, a spy. And he's somewhat in the mold of fictional spies and that he's a little cynical. You know, he's a little down at the heels. His career is kind of on the skids, whereas his wife is on the way up in the same agency. And basically he is charged as a sort of last hurrah. He's charged with finding a mole in, in the agency. And, and, and it is indeed surprising. I think this answers all of your, your requirements. So it's a who. Who done it?

[Jennifer Egan]

Meaning who's the.

[Jay McInerney]

But, yeah, but it. In the end you say, oh, yeah, of course. But you don't say that in the beginning as to, as to who the mole is. And it's really. And it's also, you know, it's also set in that. That. I don't know. I don't want to say romantic, but that kind of storied period of espionage in Berlin where all the major powers.

[Doug Brunt]

Were like early Cold War.

[Jay McInerney]

Early Cold War, where all the major powers were sort of fighting for turf and spying on each other. And really, really compelling. The good news is if you, if you really like Berlin Gaming, there's about 34 others, including two more in this. In this trilogy. So, yeah, I just, I was really blown away. And as I, as I say, I'm. I feel like now I'm going to start reading more of these types of books, but particularly with Len Dayton. See, my next novel is a Fan's Note by Frederick Exley. Quite a different. Quite a different genre, if indeed it's any genre at all. It's very curious. The author himself, Frederick, actually couldn't decide whether it was a memoir or a novel. He went back and forth in describing it. But it is clearly highly autobiographical and it was published in. At which point he was 40 years old. And it's very interesting. It is a successful novel about a man realizing that he will never be a success, that he will never finish his novel, and that he's a miserable failure as a human being. The title refers to the fact that one of his few passions is Frank Gifford in the New York Giants. And every weekend he goes, he drives an hour from his, the town where he lives and teaches high school in order to drink all day at a bar and watch the Giants play. He actually just quite coincidentally, he went to USC at the same time that Frank Gifford was a student there and an athlete. And he becomes obsessed with Gifford. His own father was a student athlete in Watertown, New York, and he was locally famous. He was big band around town and actually was obsessed with the idea of becoming famous, of somehow becoming like his father, Frank Gifford. And yet he sabotages himself at every turn. For one thing, he's. He's a stone cold alcoholic, and you'd think that would be very depressing. And at times, I suppose it is. He also spends a fair amount of time in mental institutions.

[Doug Brunt]

But did you ever get to meet this guy?

[Jay McInerney]

I never did, unfortunately. I corresponded briefly with him before. I think he died in. I think he died in the early 80s. But he was. But I am not the only person who was just blown away by the honesty of the book. Also, he's a real stylist and.

[Doug Brunt]

But shades of A Million Little Pieces, you know. You know that book that came out, and it was about rehab and all those things, and I think he tried to sell it as a novel, and that didn't work. Then he sold it as a. As a memoir, and it did work. And then there was the whole Oprah exposure of which is. Which.

[Jay McInerney]

Yeah.

[Doug Brunt]

So did he sell it as a novel, though?

[Jay McInerney]

Well, he was quite clear about the fact that it was a highly autobiographical document, and I think eventually it was published as a novel. But it's clearly very documentary, and there's something strangely exhilarating about watching this guy trip over his own feet and sabotage himself at every turn, I suppose in part because it's so beautifully written. And I know I've sort of bonded with quite a few people over this book, including the man who became my editor, Gary Fiskichohn. It's. It's. It's. It's really extremely compelling. My last book is Light Years by James Salter. And James. James Salter is, I think, one of the great, great stylists of certainly my life. But he's a great novelist. But he was always called the writer's writer, and it used to drive him crazy, you know, he said.

[Doug Brunt]

Meaning I don't sell well, Yeah, I.

[Jay McInerney]

Mean, he said, how about I have your sales and you. We can call you a writer's writer. So he was. He was in the Air Force. He was a ski racer. He was a very interesting character. His books are highly literary, and his gifts as a stylist are just incredible. Nobody writes sentences like James Salter. Almost all the writers that I know revere him, and almost everybody else hasn't read him. I could have picked a number of his books, but, for instance, A Sport in a Pastime, which is one of the most erotic books, literary books, I've ever read set in France in the 50s, light years is also set in the 50s. And I just love that. Although the couple in the book, Nedra and Viri, very strange names, they live on the Hudson and he kind of commutes in and out of New York as an architect. The book presents this idyllic marriage, at least from the outside. And they have dinner parties, they have these two lovely kids for whom they make toys and art and so on. And of course, eventually they turns out they're both having affairs. And it's an extraordinary portrait of a marriage. But the marriage does fall apart in the end of the book. And the funny thing is, the first time I read it, I didn't remember that they got divorced because the portrait of the marriage was so good. But I think they present such a beautiful picture from the outside. The thought occurs to one that, you know, they couldn't possibly be experiencing it that way on the inside. And it is. Okay if I just read a short passage?

[Doug Brunt]

Yeah, please.

[Jay McInerney]

I had to put this on my phone because I forgot the book today.

[Doug Brunt]

This is from the Salter book, but.

[Jay McInerney]

This is from Light Years. And this is about Nedra, the wife. And this will give you a sense of the rhythms of his writing. During the days, she was utterly at peace. Her life was like a single well spent hour. Its secret was its lack of remorse, of self pity. She felt herself purified. The days were cut from a quarry that would never be emptied. Into it came books, errands, the seashore, occasional pieces of mail. She read them slowly and carefully, sitting in the sunshine as if they were newspapers from abroad. I mean, I just. I just find that amazing. I could almost pick any passage and it would have those same strange rhythms. But also his sense of light, of the movement of air in a room. He writes about light like nobody I know.

[Doug Brunt]

When did Salter pass away?

[Jay McInerney]

He died, I believe in 2016.

[Jennifer Egan]

Yeah, he lived a long life, didn't he?

[Jay McInerney]

He lived at very long and productive life. He also wrote a couple of cookbooks, which I should mention Len Dayton did too. And I'm a.

[Doug Brunt]

You're a wine critic.

[Jay McInerney]

I was very fortunate that when I was writing a book you mentioned earlier, Brightness Falls, he lent me his. He used to go to Aspen in the winter to ski. And so he lent me his house in the Hamptons to work in the winter. And it's funny because Brightness Falls was actually, you know, influenced by light years, certainly. And there I was in the place where it might have been created.

[Doug Brunt]

Well, that's, you know, It's a nice tribute to him nine years after his death to have his fiction read here. And you three have written these iconic books. You know, decades from now, people begin reading you still, you've become immortal through your work.

[Jay McInerney]

Ah, if only, by the way, I, I would mention the wager, but I was concentrating on topics. A book I admire immensely and read fairly recently.

[David Grann]

Oh, thank you. And there's a wonderful profile of Salter in the New Yorker about. What was that about five years ago by Nick Pomegard.

[Jay McInerney]

Oh, that's right.

[David Grann]

And to be honest, that is what prompted. I had never read Salter the writer's writer, and went and devoured him as a result of that.

[Jay McInerney]

Excellent. Yeah.

[David Grann]

And also enraptured by the prose. But I could never, I would never dare try to imitate it.

[Jay McInerney]

I mean, it's, it's, it's very hard, it's very hard to imitate. I mean, you know, his sentences don't follow one another the way that other that most people's sentences do. I mean, most of us are like first A, then B, then C. And Salter is very sinuous and, and kind of oblique in his movements and, But I, I, I like, like Robert Stone. I, I hope that he gets that he continues to be read because it's.

[Doug Brunt]

Funny how he was always a little.

[Jay McInerney]

Bitter in his lifetime that he.

[Doug Brunt]

Was he a big seller in his lifetime?

[David Grann]

No, no.

[Jay McInerney]

Very small. I mean, no, not at all.

[David Grann]

A cult. A cult, right.

[Jay McInerney]

Yeah. He was a co writer and, and he, all the right people liked him, but not enough of them.

[Jennifer Egan]

I want to just add a couple things about a fan's notes, which I also really love. One is that it's hilarious. It's a very funny book. And I remember vividly a scene of the main character on a job interview, which is just, I mean, you said, tripping over his own feet. I mean, you're just sort of dying. And yet it's just, it's laugh out loud funny. And then the other thing that I find really poignant is that after the book came out, he and Frank Gifford became friends.

[Jay McInerney]

Yes.

[Jennifer Egan]

So that, that, that kind of the idolization resulted in a friendship between two guys who were the same age because as you say, they went to school together. I find that very sweet.

[Jay McInerney]

Yeah, he, he, he went on to publish two more books that were not as critically fiction, again kind of fictional memoir, and they, they were, they were not, they were not as good as this. But, you know, a lot of people have one book in them and he had this One book. And it was better than most books are.

[Doug Brunt]

Talented writer. Before we go to David, Jenny, you were. Before we got rolling, you were talking about a book recommendation you had made in the Times. Maybe you could share, retell maybe a little bit of that.

[Jennifer Egan]

Yes. Well, you know, the Times has this feature that they do of, like, books relating to a certain place. And they did one about New York City, and they asked me about a few different books, but the. Or a few different kind of categories of New York. And one of them was sort of the publishing world. And I recommended Jay's book Brightness Falls, which you just mentioned, as an example of a novel that I think best captures the publishing world as it. As it was when I first began to publish in the. In the mid-90s. And there's actually a line which I'm gonna mangle if I try to quote it now, but it's so funny, I probably will, too. There's a young guy who becomes. Who writes a book and he becomes famous kind of overnight. And it says everyone listens a little bit more closely to everything he says, and he listens a little less closely to what everyone else says.

[Jay McInerney]

And I just thought, I think that's it.

[Jennifer Egan]

I love it. So true. We all know that guy, David Grant.

[David Grann]

All right, well, I'm gonna cheat, because in listening to this conversation, of course, I suddenly, the brain started to start with other ideas for other books. So forgive me, but I'll do it quickly. But when he mentioned Lindy, it reminded me of Eric Ambler, who I think is actually a great Father's Day book and somebody who has kind of been forgotten over time, but wrote early spy novels and really kind of. And you were talking about suspense and mystery. And I think some consider him the person who kind of invented the suspense novel. But he writes it credibly.

[Jennifer Egan]

I agree.

[David Grann]

And Epitaph to a Spy would be a great one to start with. And I think he influenced Hitchcock a lot, this idea. And I'm speculating on that, but it was always about this kind of ordinary. It's my favorite kind of mystery and spy novel, which is the ordinary person who suddenly gets caught up in something larger than himself and is trying to kind of make sense of this world. So that's Hitchcock. Yeah, that's Hitchcock, and that was Ambler. So in any case, it made me think of that, and I took my homework very serious. So I said, okay, well, what is Father's Day book? Now, of course. What is a Father's Day book? Sometimes people say my books are Dad's books. I'm a dad, but I never think when I'm writing a book, this is a dad's book. I just write a book that. And a story that's interesting because I think kind of any great story or, you know, can fit for any of these kind of holidays. But. But I did try to project out on this kind of archetypal father. I don't know if he really exists, but I tried to create one in my mind and picking these books. So I thought, well, Father's Day, they're always recommending like these present these big, thick presidential biographies. Right? It's all. And I will confess that unless it's kind of written by Robert Caro or someone of that ilk and has the psychological dimensions, I don't actually want to read 20 volumes on Garfield or somebody. But this kind of fits my version of presidential getting working in a presidential biography. It's by Candice Millard. It's the river of Doubt, because what it really is is just a hell of a story. And rather than being a soup to nuts bio of an individual, so it's just plopping down the president in the middle of a situation, in the middle of a story, which is. He's kind of smarting. Teddy Roosevelt is kind of smarting from a presidential race. He does one of these. You know, he loves to kind of go off on these adventures, and this one becomes more than he bargained for in mapping an Amazonian river known as the river of Doubt because it was not fully explored. And so you kind of learn about Roosevelt, but you learn about him in this kind of tight, more compulsive narrative. And you get to see someone through action, which is you get to see how they are. And of course, there's another character that kind of emerges as the real kind of hero in the background, which is a Colonel Rondon, who is a Brazilian colonel who kind of is really kind of leading the expedition. And Roosevelt almost dies on the expedition. And so it has. You know, again, I tried to take this archetype of this father out here, this projection of what I thought, but I tried to give it a version that I would like, which is to actually have a hell of a story rather than he was born on this day and he died on this day. So that's the river of Doubt by Kendice Smart. She's also a great writer of nature and so the Amazon.

[Doug Brunt]

I've never read anything by her, but a friend of mine was just recommending she's written a few nonfiction and narrative nonfiction Type books. I think she's really successful.

[David Grann]

Yeah, hugely successful. And the Amazon is actually the third. Actually the most awesome character in the book. I mean, she just brings the nature and the jungle to light. I read this when I was working on the Lost City of Z. So that. That's what kind of led me to that one. And then because I read so much nonfiction for work and research, I actually tend not to read it so much. I tend to read more fiction. I read these wonderful novels. And this is a book called the north water by Ian McGuire. I don't even know how to describe you all, probably describe it better than I would, but it's a sea novel on a whaling ship in the 19th century that is completely doomed. And of course, working on the wager.

[Jay McInerney]

Something you know about.

[David Grann]

Yes, working on the wager. I was, you know, read a lot of sea tales, but this one is kind of its very own thing. I hate. I always don't like when one compares another novel to bring it to light. But it is a little bit like Cormac McCarthy at sea. The sea becomes this kind of biblical landscape testing these human beings. It is the utter rawness and savagery of human nature dealing with themes of good and evil. But I think. And I think you all talked about this in your picks. I think ultimately what makes a great novel succeed and rise above even its story is the sentences. And he can really write a sentence. So that would be the North Water. And. Yeah, but this is a fairly dark, hopeless, grim. So perhaps my projection onto my archetypal father is probably a little dark, like I am. So I don't know. And then the third one was again, the mystery. There's something kind of cozy about a mystery. I am a total unlike you. I will read for my pleasure is like just I'll any. I'm gonna read some of these crime novels you had mentioned, but I just love reading crime fiction. I love detective work. I love spy novels, and I could have picked any one of them, but I picked this one by Louise Penny. This is her newest one, the Gray Wolf. The plot in this one is a little bit more baroque. I actually, I would almost recommend starting at the beginning because she's done a series of these series. Yeah, the beginning of these series, because I don't even know what number this is.

[Jay McInerney]

I was gonna ask how you usually read books.

[David Grann]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't cheat on my mysteries, but the thing I like about they're set in Quebec. There's always the same detective Gamache, and she's got this wonderful little village with these characters who kind of reoccur and reappear in all her little novels. And they have a mystery. But you talked about a lot of the trap doors that make mysteries and then who is the villain and who is the suspect. But I think the other element in certainly series of crime novels is who is the detective? Who is that figure who is piecing these things together together. I grew up kind of reading the Sherlock Holmes stories and of course that was the kind of archetypal detective, but the superhuman rationalist who is almost like a superman of reason, could see everything, looks at the. Looks at the dust on your pants and concludes exactly what your profession is and defines exactly how you committed the murder by a glance. While the rest of us, like Watson, are kind of bumbling about. But the reason I quite like these Louise Penny novels is Gamache. He's clearly smart, he's very reasonable, he's methodical, he's rational. But there's a decency and a wisdom that kind of permeates his detection. And there's just something I would just say, living in the world in which we live these days with so much tumult, so much chaos, and so there's a certain wisdom and almost heart that kind of goes against the kind of way almost the anti homes in a way that I find very comforting. And I will say that I like to walk a lot. And I listen to her novels. I actually haven't read them. I listen to them.

[Doug Brunt]

Does she have the same reader?

[David Grann]

Well, I will say this was kind of tragic. She had the. The first reader of several of her novels I thought was one of the best readers I'd ever heard and created Gamache in my mind. And then he passed away. And so they've had other ones who are great readers too. But for me it was actually always.

[Doug Brunt]

Like, I'm a Sean Connery guy.

[David Grann]

Right, Exactly. You just didn't work. And so that was always really hard. But I really liked to listen to these, to listen to Gamache as I walk around.

[Jay McInerney]

Isn't there another more American archetype besides Holmes? I mean, I'm just starting to think about suspense novels, but. But there's a sort of Raymond Chandler.

[David Grann]

Oh, yeah.

[Jay McInerney]

And Dashiell Hammett, archetype of the cynical, kind of down at the heels tough guy. Right?

[David Grann]

Yeah. The anti hero. The anti hero hero, yeah. The person who is. Yes.

[Doug Brunt]

Lee Child says he was writing Reacher as the American James Bond. That's what he was trying to go For.

[Jennifer Egan]

And one thing I would say about the.

[Jay McInerney]

I've read some of those.

[Jennifer Egan]

Those Americans, you know, Chandler, for example, is that.

[Jay McInerney]

Well, although he's British, but.

[Jennifer Egan]

Oh, interesting.

[Jay McInerney]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Egan]

Wrote about la.

[Jay McInerney]

No, he moved to la.

[David Grann]

It's funny, I completely forgot.

[Jennifer Egan]

That's so interesting. But in a way, he was a Brit. I mean, Marlowe is like a man without a past or a provenance. I mean, he's a really. So they're very kind of alienated detectives. But the interesting thing about all of those books to me is the stories really don't make sense. These are books about the detective and the atmosphere, 100%. Things that, interestingly, Christy uses her detectives are really interesting. Very little atmosphere in her books, very little physical description of environments.

[Jay McInerney]

William Faulkner, I think, wrote the screenplay for the Big Sleep.

[David Grann]

Yeah. No, he still doesn't know what it's. Nobody knows what it's.

[Jay McInerney]

Somebody said to him, what's it about? He said, damned if I know.

[Jennifer Egan]

Try the Maltese Falcon. Forget it.

[David Grann]

Fantastic. But you don't know and. But it is. It is a little bit of approval. You said, if you can reread it, it's a virtue. And in a weird way, if you love it so much and you don't really yet even fully understand why something did. Is proof of its brilliance that it's created. Some have artistic aesthetic.

[Jennifer Egan]

Yeah, that's true.

[Doug Brunt]

It's so fun to hear you guys talk about the work of others because I've read all of your work and to imagine you guys perusing the bookstore shelves and picking one off and taking it home and reading it like everyone else. You know, it's fun to imagine. So in the spirit of. That.

[Jay McInerney]

We are fans first, right?

[Doug Brunt]

Exactly. You have to be. I mean, the one common thread of everyone who's come on this show, all the great authors, is they're all huge readers. Everything else, it's a million different ways to do it. You know, outline, don't outline all those kinds of things. But everyone's a huge reader, so I'm going to top up the champagne and then give you. While I'm doing that, you have a moment to think. Everyone's going to pick two books, so you have six to choose from there. David, you have six to choose from here. Jay, to take home. I'm 0 for 9, so I could take anything. I'll go last. Jenny, you go first. And we'll go down the line in that way as I top us up.

[Jay McInerney]

Okay.

[Jennifer Egan]

Interesting.

[Jay McInerney]

Well, too big. Yeah.

[Jennifer Egan]

This is. I don't know, are we. I Don't know if this is even part of the conversation, but isn't the North Water kind of a who done it also? Am I misremembering that? Well, I mean, there's a sexual predator.

[David Grann]

Yeah, there's a sexual predator. Basically a psychopath is horrific. The beginning, actually, I had to power through. Yeah, the beginning is quite brutal.

[Jennifer Egan]

But I thought it. I thought it. I remember it as kind of a.

[David Grann]

Whodunity of intrigue and suspense. I mean, it is a thriller. There is no question. It is completely suspensive because you don't know what is going to happen. What is going to happen to the ship and then the final collision. And everybody's kind of up to something. Yeah, everybody's got a dark past. Everybody's kind of up to something.

[Jennifer Egan]

I think I always. I thought a lot about. Well, I don't know if this is really part of this conversation, but just for the hell of it, I thought a lot about. See, the sort of genre of the sea stories and the way that it kind of mirrors the noir, because in both cases, you have an existential threat that surrounds a little enclave of kind of human warmth. And we're always wondering sort of which one is going to prevail. So it's interesting when a book combines the two. That's what's sort of interesting about, like a sort of crime thriller set on a ship, in a way. It's a combination of two genres, Will.

[David Grann]

And. And also, you know, you think of the Christie almost like the Locked Room. Well, the ship is like a locked room in a way. Right. I mean, so you have isolated environment. There's kind of no way out who is. Who's going to do what. And then, of course, there's that situation in the Sea Stories. You know, it ultimately just completely tests and explodes their human nature. What will it reveal about each of them?

[Jennifer Egan]

Yeah.

[Doug Brunt]

Have you nearly.

[Jay McInerney]

You still have to pick.

[Jennifer Egan]

Okay, I'm gonna pick two. So I've read a number of these.

[Jay McInerney]

Right.

[Jennifer Egan]

I'm gonna pick. Well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna definitely pick the. The Roosevelt. The Candace Millard Roosevelt. Amazon. That sounds great. I'm gonna.

[David Grann]

Do I do a handoff here or do I just.

[Doug Brunt]

Maybe we'll get. We'll do this after the show. Maybe we can get the recommender to sign to the picker. And so you can. You can sign someone else's book and. And then Jenny can take it home.

[Jennifer Egan]

Definitely gonna pick Berlin Game, Len Dayton, because I love Eric Amble.

[David Grann]

All right, can we rip it in Half. Geez. All right. We're gonna fight afterwards. There could be a murder mystery in here. I want this.

[Jennifer Egan]

Yep. It's two, right? Those are my two. All right. Those are my two.

[Jay McInerney]

All right. Right.

[Doug Brunt]

All right, Jay, you're up.

[Jay McInerney]

I'm gonna do the Chester Himes and Louise Petty.

[David Grann]

This was a very unfair order. I wanted to. Chester, just take them from me. All right, well, you'll be getting an.

[Jennifer Egan]

Amazon package this week or maybe an independent bookstore.

[Doug Brunt]

Oh, yeah, exactly.

[David Grann]

But. All right. But I'm very happy. I want to read the Robert Stone because I have not read that one, and I love Robert Stone, and I haven't read him in years, so I'm looking forward to that. And I want to reread. And I don't have it anymore. I want to reread Salter. I want to hear you read those sentences. I want to hear those sentences again.

[Jay McInerney]

Here we go.

[Doug Brunt]

All right, I think I will take Agatha Christie, because I haven't read this one. And then, you know, I had my eye on that Candace Millar one. But again, going last is really that as much fun. So I think I'll take.

[Jay McInerney]

Did you say we're going to take Agatha Christie? Van's note sounds interesting.

[Jennifer Egan]

It's really fun.

[Jay McInerney]

It really is. Yeah.

[Doug Brunt]

And I've got to know Kathy Lee a little bit. So this. This just Frank Gifford. Is he discussed in here at.

[Jay McInerney]

Oh, God, yeah. That'll be interesting some. I mean, this guy's a obsessed. Yeah. I didn't take the Agatha Christie because I think my wife is the only person who's read all of them and probably has them all at home.

[Jennifer Egan]

See what she thinks about it.

[Doug Brunt]

Well, this was terrific. Any last thoughts on Father's Day before we sign off?

[David Grann]

Happy Father's Day.

[Jay McInerney]

I hope my kids remember this year.

[David Grann]

Kids, I'd love a book.

[Doug Brunt]

Well, cheers. Thanks so much. Happy Father's Day. Great to see you.

[Jay McInerney]

All right, thanks for having us.

[Doug Brunt]

If you have been enjoying the audio of Dedicated, now we have more for you. We are now videoing our episodes of Dedicated. So go to YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Rumble, and the SiriusXM app, and you can see a video of our episodes of Dedicated with our awesome guests. Thank you, Sam.