Delta Force Operator John McPhee on Afghan War Stories, Keys to Leadership, and America as a Friend | Ep. 1080

Summary

The Megyn Kelly Show – Episode 1080 Summary

Title: Delta Force Operator John McPhee on Afghan War Stories, Keys to Leadership, and America as a Friend
Host: Megyn Kelly
Guest: Retired US Army Special Operations Sergeant Major John McPhee
Release Date: May 26, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this poignant Memorial Day episode, Megyn Kelly honors the brave men and women who have sacrificed for the United States. She welcomes her guest, retired US Army Special Operations Sergeant Major John McPhee, also known as the "Sheriff of Baghdad." With over two decades of military service, McPhee shares his diverse combat experiences, leadership insights, and reflections on America's role in global conflicts.

---

2. Early Life and Childhood

John McPhee opens up about his tumultuous upbringing on the South Side of Chicago. As the only white kid in his class during the 1970s and 80s, he faced constant bullying and violence.

• Quote:
  "Growing up on the South Side of Chicago in the 70s and 80s was like a different world altogether."
  (03:29)

McPhee recounts being frequently bullied on the bus, leading his parents to arrange for him to take a cab to school to avoid daily beatings.

• Quote:
  "I had to earn my way in, and once I did, it was fairly easy for me."
  (08:03)

---

3. Military Career Beginnings

Driven by a desire to escape his challenging home environment, McPhee decided to join the military at nearly 21 years old. Initially aiming for the Air Force due to his mechanical skills, he was redirected to the Army when the Air Force couldn’t utilize his expertise effectively.

• Quote:
  "When they said I could be admin in the Air Force, I was out of there. I didn’t want to be a secretary."
  (15:20)

Encouraged by a friend to pursue the prestigious Airborne Ranger path, McPhee enlisted in the Army, embracing the rigorous training and camaraderie it offered.

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4. Deployment and War Experiences

a. Tora Bora Mission

One of McPhee’s most notable missions was at Tora Bora, a stronghold for Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. Leading a small team of ten, McPhee describes the intense 10-day operation aimed at eliminating Bin Laden’s forces.

• Quote:
  "We killed hundreds of people on the first day. They were everywhere on the side of the mountains."
  (30:01)

Despite their efforts, Bin Laden evaded capture, leading McPhee to express skepticism about the official narrative surrounding his death.

• Quote:
  "If the first 10 days of the war, 10 guys kill Bin Laden, where’s the war on terror at?"
  (32:30)

b. Iraq Deployment and Actions against Zarqawi

McPhee also served multiple deployments in Iraq, where he engaged with high-profile targets like Zarqawi. His straightforward approach and tactical expertise contributed significantly to operations against insurgent leaders.

• Quote:
  "The Zarqawi days were great because that’s when the military finally let us take the gloves off and do things our way."
  (60:01)

---

5. Leadership and Mental Resilience

Throughout the interview, McPhee emphasizes the importance of responsibility, adaptability, and mental toughness developed through his military experiences.

• Quote:
  "If you want something, you got to put in the work. It’s called responsibility."
  (18:54)

He discusses coping mechanisms, such as engaging in Jiu Jitsu and off-roading, to maintain mental clarity and resilience after his service.

• Quote:
  "Jiu Jitsu is an hour of my day where I don’t have to look at the phone. It's survival mode."
  (72:40)

---

6. Post-Military Life

a. Personal Life and Relationships

McPhee shares candid insights into his personal life, including multiple marriages and the challenges of maintaining relationships amidst frequent deployments.

• Quote:
  "Being married in the Army is like being in prison. You could call home, but you're not going there anytime soon."
  (66:37)

Despite the hardships, he expresses deep pride in his children, with one following in his footsteps by serving in the Army.

b. Current Activities and Interests

Post-retirement, McPhee remains active by teaching shooting skills and training in Jiu Jitsu. He participates in off-roading adventures and continues to uphold the values of discipline and leadership instilled during his military career.

• Quote:
  "I love teaching people to shoot. It’s like the thing I’m really good at."
  (73:36)

---

7. Reflections and Conclusions

John McPhee concludes the discussion by reflecting on the futility of prolonged conflicts and the strategic missteps that often hinder military objectives.

• Quote:
  "It wasn’t worth it in a strategic sense, but I had the time of my life and did whatever I could."
  (67:40)

He advocates for recognizing and valuing the sacrifices of soldiers without necessarily seeking gratitude, emphasizing a sense of duty and personal fulfillment derived from his service.

• Quote:
  "I did whatever I could. I don't need any thanks."
  (62:56)

McPhee’s narrative offers a raw and unfiltered glimpse into the life of a special operations soldier, highlighting both the valor and the personal costs associated with military service.

---

Notable Quotes Summary

• "I turned out the way I turned out, and I think anybody in the situations I was in would come out the same way."
  (08:03)

• "War builds bonds. You can’t get anywhere else."
  (63:29)

• "If you want something, you got to put in the work. It’s called responsibility."
  (18:54)

• "War is you kill the bad guy and break him so he can't use that shit against you."
  (62:56)

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Megyn Kelly Show provides an in-depth exploration of Sergeant Major John McPhee’s experiences and perspectives as a special operations veteran. Through candid dialogue, McPhee sheds light on the complexities of warfare, leadership, and the enduring impact of military service on personal and professional life. His reflections serve as a tribute to the resilience and dedication of those who serve, offering listeners a profound understanding of the sacrifices made in the name of national security.

Transcript

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[Megyn Kelly]

Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show. On this Memorial Day, we honor all of the brave men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice to keep the United States of America free and prosperous. As we do every Memorial Day, we are bringing you the story of a remarkable veteran. And what a story this vet has. Joining me today is retired US Army Special Operations Sergeant Major John McPhee, aka the Sheriff of Baghdad. John served our country for over 20 years, specializing in various special mission units and combat experience across multiple theaters, including Afghanistan and Iraq, where he hunted both Osama Bin Laden and and Saddam Hussein. I would like to introduce you to a new brand of Angus beef. You can order it directly from Riverbend Ranch, which is located just a few miles from West Yellowstone, Montana. Riverbend Ranch raises their cattle a lot differently than most ranches. For example, they never use artificial growth hormones or antibiotics. They track the health of every animal from the day it is born and can guarantee that it has been healthy every day of its life. And they handle their animals humanely and with respect. But most important is the quality of the beef. You'll find it as tender and flavorful as the finest restaurants. And that's because they have spent the last 35 years selecting cattle for tenderness and flavor, aging their beef to perfection for 21 days. The result is some of the most tender and flavorful beef you have ever tasted. You cannot buy beef like this in a grocery store. And since it is shipped directly from the ranch to your home, you can. You get a much better price than going through the middlemen. Order directly from Riverbendranch.com use promo code Megan to get 20 bucks off your first order. That's Riverbendranch.com code Megan. And be prepared. Once you taste it, you're going to be coming back for more again. That's Riverbendranch.com, code Megan. John, great to have you.

[John McPhee]

Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

How you doing?

[John McPhee]

Pretty good. Pretty good. Quite a lead up there.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, my God, I mean, you've done a lot.

[John McPhee]

I've tried. I tried.

[Megyn Kelly]

When I say that when you hear that intro read, given all the time that you spent, you know, serving the country, what's the one that, like, you focus on? Like, that's the one thing that really kind of defined the service in my mind.

[John McPhee]

Man. Kind of none of that, I guess. You know what I mean? Like, later in the war, as leadership, like, that was a challenge. You know what I mean? Those, like, the battle of Tora Bora. I was a new guy. Like, let's go kill everybody. You know what I mean? And then the war rages on. You learn, you're more experienced. You just learn as it goes on. You're going to learn different lessons. Everybody's going to do this. And I think the lessons I learned as a young guy weren't the lessons I needed.

[Megyn Kelly]

Really?

[John McPhee]

Yeah. Everybody learns, right? Everyone makes mistakes.

[Megyn Kelly]

When I read your bio, I thought the opposite because you had a very rough childhood.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And I thought it made him one tough SOB, maybe.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And so they say, you know, capable of doing what needed to be done in, like, the darkest days of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

And so I'm a reg. I tell. I tell everyone this. I'm a regular guy. I do everything everyone else does. I joined the army, and I think when. When 9, 11 happened, I was too far in to, like, choose a different life. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Let's start back at the young John. South side of Chicago.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Only white kid in the class.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

For a long time.

[Megyn Kelly]

How'd that happen?

[John McPhee]

I don't know. You get in fights. You go to Ding Dong. They call it Ding Dong School. That's where kids that fight all the time and you end up there.

[Megyn Kelly]

How did your parents settle in a neighborhood where you would wind up being the only one white kid?

[John McPhee]

That's where we lived to, like. It's South Chicago. It's where we lived. You know what I mean? I would say the South Chicago of the 70s, 80s was like a. A different place.

[Megyn Kelly]

So I know that you were very badly bullied on the bus every day. I heard you telling our pal Sean Ryan about that. I mean, it was every day. They beat you up daily?

[John McPhee]

Well, no, until they got me a cab.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, it must have been bad for the south side of Chicago school system to get you a cab every day to school.

[John McPhee]

I think.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, it cost. Well, it cost them a lot of money because the police would have to come to the bus on the side of the road. They'd have to break up the fight. And then the seats were broke, a window was broke, and then the school's gotta pay for all of that. And then by the time we get to school, school would be over.

[Megyn Kelly]

How old were you?

[John McPhee]

I don't know. Sophomore, Freshman, maybe. Sophomore.

[Megyn Kelly]

So sad. I have a freshman and the thought of that happening to him every day is upsetting. I mean, it's heartbreaking. Your parents never intervened. Did they know?

[John McPhee]

Oh, they knew, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did they do anything?

[John McPhee]

What are they going to do?

[Megyn Kelly]

Get you out of there?

[John McPhee]

That would have been a good idea. They probably never thought of that. That's a good idea.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what was the story? Were they just young? Substance abuse?

[John McPhee]

Yes. No, I think my parents were young. I think my mom was. I don't know, maybe always kind of. Maybe just bitter as a lady, you know what I mean? She was like the, like, mean divorced lady most of the time. And, like, I just think that's how people thought their lives should be. I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Siblings?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, I have a brother.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is he older or younger?

[John McPhee]

Older.

[Megyn Kelly]

So did he go through this too?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, but he's just a little older than me.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, but I just can't imagine, like, a mother allowing this to just keep happening to her child.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, well, here I am. You know what I mean? What are you going to do?

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you, like, maintain? I know you wound up living in a brothel, which is another interesting story, but did you. Do you keep contact with your mom? Like.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Still around?

[John McPhee]

No, she died. I don't know, a while ago.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you. Did you. Were you close?

[John McPhee]

I mean. Yeah, as close as you could kind of be with someone that, you know is always, like, mean, bitter.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow.

[John McPhee]

You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

What happened in her life that left her there?

[John McPhee]

I don't know. I don't got the energy to, like, hang on to that much, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Good.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So, no, we always joke. My husband's brother, they're Presbyterian, and he always jokes when you're. When you're thinking about something like that, push it down, push it down.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's not wrong.

[John McPhee]

I mean, on something, you got to let it go.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

Like, letting it go is the better way, you know? Know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

But the beatings, that would be tough to let go. I mean, I just feel like. Did that create any resentment in you?

[John McPhee]

I don't know. Yes. I mean, of course it did. It did. It didn't. I mean, look, I look at it this way. I turned out the way I turned out, and I think anybody in. In the situations I was in would come out the same way. And then you have to realize, like, you got to want to choose good. You know, it's easy for people to be bad. And I say this all the time. No one has bad intent, but shit gets fucked up. Can I say that?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, you can. Yeah. I wouldn't have had you on if you couldn't say that word. That's your favorite word.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, I know, right? I'm trying to be nice, but shit gets up. So, you know, I don't think my parents have bad intent. I don't think there were bad people. I think they were young. I think they drank. You know, anytime you drink, like, you know, I used to drink a ton, but anytime you drink, like, you know, of course there's going to be drama. That's. Takes your filters away. You know what I mean? Like, it's probably a better way to deal with than telling someone just, you know, so I. I think it's just like a product of being young. I don't think anyone had a bad intent. I just think it. It is what it is. And. And I tell you, it's pro. It's generational. I mean, I'm not the only one. You know what I mean? But I would say it's generational, and I'd say there's kids in the same neighborhoods living about the same life, and their parents were probably in school with me. You know what I mean? Like, and I think that's just how it works. It's like a cycle.

[Megyn Kelly]

Does it create, like, a resentment toward black people, if you have any beating you up every day?

[John McPhee]

No, I don't get past that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, I could see how that would.

[John McPhee]

Cause some eyes, the easy target. Like, you know, later in school, I didn't get beat up every day because I. I realized I learned to fight, I could protect myself. And like, a Lot of the actual gang leaders in that, like, they respected that. And so I didn't really have. I had to earn my way in, I guess. But once I earned my way in, it was fairly easy for me. I mean, and I look at it this way as, like, you know, look, you could be the victim. Okay, great. What's next?

[Megyn Kelly]

What's that gonna do you?

[John McPhee]

How long are you gonna do that for? You know what I'm saying?

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm guessing that given the way you describe the school system there you were not on the college track. And you knew that?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you know you're gonna wind up in the armed forces, though? Was that a goal?

[John McPhee]

You know, I knew I wanted to join. I kind of joined late. I was almost 21, but I wanted to join, but I didn't know, like, when. You know what I mean? And then one day I was just like, it. Let's go.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, we'll get to that. But I've got to spend a minute on the brothel. Since I mentioned it, how does. How did two guys, two kids, wind up living in abroad?

[John McPhee]

Well, I don't know. You know, they say hookers have a heart of gold. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Is that what happened? A hooker took you in?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John McPhee]

And we weren't the only kids, you know what I mean? But yeah, were it? No.

[Megyn Kelly]

Who else was in there, how many.

[John McPhee]

She had kids, and, like, so me and my brother helped raise other kids, stuff like that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, what happened to your parents?

[John McPhee]

Me and my brother decided we would be better on our own.

[Megyn Kelly]

How old were you here?

[John McPhee]

I don't know, 12, 13, maybe. Pre high school.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you went back with your parents by 15 when the. The bus situation was happening?

[John McPhee]

No, I went to school myself.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, walk me through it. So you're growing up, you're with your parents until around 12, and then you wind up living at a brothel?

[John McPhee]

Me and my brother, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

How'd you get connected with this woman running the brothel?

[John McPhee]

Well, I was living with my. I guess my stepmom. Anyway, it's a mess, you know, but I was living with my stepmom, and then me and my brother just moved over there, and they were nicer to me than anyone else I knew. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

So, and was that you were there for the duration until you hit 18?

[John McPhee]

No, I was only there for a little bit. Let's see what else happened? I don't know. I didn't live there that long. Like, just, I don't know, high school, some. Most of my high School years, but that was it.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So now you got to find a direction once you hit 18. Right. You got to do something.

[John McPhee]

Well, I always worked. I've been working since I was a little kid. I was a welder. I worked on trucks. So that's another thing I did is I always showed up to work on time, put myself to work, like earned money.

[Megyn Kelly]

You had a couple of skills that are completely foreign to me, like being good with an engine and being a good navigator.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't. I think you're born with that. You're not born with that. Am I wrong?

[John McPhee]

I don't know. Maybe.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you always have that ability, that sense of navigation because you, like, you really needed it? It would very. Become very important to you.

[John McPhee]

It would in your military service. I am very good at navigation. I don't know. I guess you're born with it because I would have never thought. And I've never not been good at it.

[Megyn Kelly]

Have you? Have you. Do you get lost a lot?

[John McPhee]

Never.

[Megyn Kelly]

I've always lost.

[John McPhee]

Are you.

[Megyn Kelly]

You don't understand when you don't have this gift. It's so frustrating. I'm at the point when I drive, whatever my instinct is, I know to do the opposite. Like a George Costanza situation. I just know. Do not. Whatever my instincts are telling me it's wrong. When it comes to directions, I'm missing this chip.

[John McPhee]

You could get a GPS.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I do. Thankfully. I live in 2025.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. Nowadays, I. I could get lost nowadays. I'd say that only because, like, I just listened to the lady on my phone. Turn left. Okay. Yes, so. But no, I have a pretty good sense of direction. I. Maybe it's natural. I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what. During these formative years before we go off and join the military, are you. Do you dating? Is there a special woman in your life?

[John McPhee]

No, not really.

[Megyn Kelly]

Nobody? No. Like you hadn't been in love yet?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, no. I pretty much avoided people most of my childhood. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Did anything happen in the brothel that would deflower you or.

[John McPhee]

Uh, no comment.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. All right. Just saying. Seems like. Seems like an obvious thing to do. Um. Okay. So you originally wanted to join the Air Force? Why?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, uh, well, I was a mechanic. Right. Very mechanically inclined. Uh, I was a welder as well. I fixed a lot of semi trucks, broken frames, dump trucks, whole wall collapse stuff. And it take me, like, weeks to rebuild these trucks, but it's kind of what I did. And. And then, yeah, I figured I could do this for the Air Force, you know what I mean? And then the biggest thing was, like, my hands were, like, always black. Like, cracked fingers. Like, you're always welding. It's always dirty, greasy, dirty stuff working on these trucks, right? And, like, honestly, my thought was, no girl is ever gonna let me put my hand in her pants if she sees my hand, you know what I mean? There's just. It's not happening. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Does that stuff not come off with the. Right.

[John McPhee]

So I don't care how much soap you got. Like, when you work like that, like, your hands are black. So, yeah, so I figured I got to do something else, you know what I mean? Like, I just can't do this forever, you know? Only because I was always dirty every day. And you couldn't. You couldn't, like, not be dirty. Like, even your days off, you couldn't wash, and you weren't clean. You know what I mean? So I figured, well, maybe now's the time to join the Army.

[Megyn Kelly]

And so what happened at the Air Force?

[John McPhee]

They said I didn't have high enough skills to be a mechanic, which I was. They told me I could be admin. And I'm like, okay, what's that? Maybe I'll do this. What's the admin? And he was like, well, you type memos, maybe process awards. And I was like, my mom's a secretary. Like, that's what that sounds like. I'm out, you know?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Talk about misjudging a man.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. And they're like, son, have you talked to the Marines of the army yet? And I'm like, no, I didn't even think of it, you know? So I went to the Army.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why the Army?

[John McPhee]

Well, a buddy of mine was an Airborne Ranger and said how great it was, so I just went down there and told him I wanted to be an Airborne Ranger.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did they give you a hard time?

[John McPhee]

Oh, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

They did, too.

[John McPhee]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Everybody's giving you a hard time.

[John McPhee]

Oh, yeah. Well, I had, like, a. So first off, I had a mullet. Like, okay, but who didn't have to say, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

What year are we in now? We got to be, like, 90s.

[John McPhee]

80. No, 90. 89 is what I was talking about.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. You're my age, I think.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[John McPhee]

So I had a mullet. And they're like, you know, guys like, yo, Bob, hey, this guy wants to be a Ranger. And they come out and they, like, laughed at me.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, don't they shave your head anyway? What do they care what your Hair looks like.

[John McPhee]

I don't know. But yeah, I was just like this skinny mullet head kid, you know, and they didn't believe in me, but I didn't care, you know?

[Megyn Kelly]

Right. You might have been used to that feeling.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, yeah, I figured. I figured. Well, Bob was a fat, bald guy anyways, so, like, you know, Bob, you're not impressive. And the guy I was talking to seemed like a dullard, so it's not like these guys impressed me. I just knew there was more to the army, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

So this is all before 9 11. You know, you're. You're signing up, but you don't know exactly what you're signing up for. I assume it's just I want to be part of the military.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. I had no idea. I didn't know if I was doing, like, in my day, it was like, you sign up for the college money, you know what I mean? Like, people did. I didn't know why I signed up. And I definitely didn't think I needed college money whatsoever. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. I joined all my family, you know. Turned out it's like a family business. My grandpa was both. My grandpa's, my great grandpa. World War II. Like, so it turned out a lot of people in my family were in the service and, like, no one really talked about it. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

That's pretty cool.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you escalated up the ranks, it seems to me, pretty quickly. Like, you got moved from thing to thing, challenge to challenge, some of which were a surprise to you, but didn't sound like you had a lot of failures as you were making your name tons.

[John McPhee]

You did daily, daily failure. Oh, yeah, they fail quick. Let's get it over with. Maybe we'll get it right by the end of the day.

[Megyn Kelly]

How did you do in, like, the. The military setting? Because I would think with your background, you weren't exactly big on rules.

[John McPhee]

I don't like rules.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. So how'd you. I mean, that. That's got to be a problem in basic training.

[John McPhee]

Not really. I mean, it's a game, you know what I mean? And their trash talk was great, man. Basic training, like, you enjoyed that? Oh, God. They would, like, yell people and, like, I just be. I'd be like, not even getting yelled at, and I'd start laughing and they just be like, my drill sergeant called me Mafy. And he'd be like, mafy, do push ups. And I just start doing push ups because he'd hear me laughing like, oh, man, the trash Talk was great. Like, I loved it.

[Megyn Kelly]

You were born for that. Little did they know, maybe impossible to upset you.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, well, they couldn't upset me.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. I feel like at this point in life, is it hard to upset you? You've been through so much, military wise, childhood wise.

[John McPhee]

I mean, you know, like, we gotta. Look, if you want stuff, you got to do it yourself. It's called responsibility. It doesn't matter your age. I call it adulting. I hate it. But I've been doing it for a long time. So if you want something, you got to put in the work.

[Megyn Kelly]

Does anybody irritate you? Like, do you get irritated?

[John McPhee]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so you're not beyond that.

[John McPhee]

Everybody. You know what I mean? Like, do you like everybody?

[Megyn Kelly]

No. No. Such a long list of people I dislike.

[John McPhee]

See, there you go.

[Megyn Kelly]

But I cover politics for a living, so it's.

[John McPhee]

Your list is longer than mine.

[Megyn Kelly]

Very long. Okay, so let's go back. So then you meander over to the army, they take you. You're going through basic training, people are getting yelled at, and you're enjoying that.

[John McPhee]

Y.

[Megyn Kelly]

And what's the plan? Just, like, see what they do with you.

[John McPhee]

Well, yeah, Well, I had a Ranger contract, so I go through basic training, airborne school, and then I go to rip.

[Megyn Kelly]

Explain what Ranger is.

[John McPhee]

The Ranger regiment is. It's its own unit in the army, their infantry, basically. And nowadays they're a tier one unit. Back in my day, they were just like specialized infantry or whatever they called them. Right. But yeah, the Ranger regiment is a way of life. And then back in my day was RIP is what they called it. And like, basic training was a joke. We jog in the morning and sing songs. It's like summer camp, you know, in rip, like, some random looking dude just takes off faster than you've ever seen another human being running. You're just like, holy shit. Like, these guys do this. Let's go. Yeah, real talk, you know? And then like the whole time, like, I mean, I didn't know if I was going to make it or not. I was just doing my best.

[Megyn Kelly]

How long is the training?

[John McPhee]

It was three weeks back then.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. But it's intense.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, back then it was. Yeah. And back then it was more about creating guys that won't quit than it was like training you at your actual job.

[Megyn Kelly]

Now from there, you joined Special Forces. How long? Yeah, did that take?

[John McPhee]

I did five years in Ranger battalion. And then like, the sergeant major at the time was like, sending people to, like, Korea or some Random army shit that I wanted nothing to do with.

[Megyn Kelly]

What did you want?

[John McPhee]

And not that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like that.

[John McPhee]

Not that. You know what I mean? Didn't. Never wanted to go to Korea. I heard it's cold and like. Anyway, never wanted to go there. Sorry, no offense.

[Megyn Kelly]

Where were you in the States? Here?

[John McPhee]

I was in Savannah, Georgia.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. Yeah.

[John McPhee]

Big city. What I'm saying.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I hear you.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. So.

[Megyn Kelly]

Especially when you grow up in Chicago, right? Yeah.

[John McPhee]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

For once.

[John McPhee]

Yes.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

So, love Savannah. Right. And I didn't want to go anywhere, so I figured I'd hit Special Forces Selection. At least it would, like, give me a path where I might control my ending.

[Megyn Kelly]

Can you talk about that? Because as a civilian, you hear Special Forces and you think, oh, that's cool. Something cool is happening. Like, he knows, like, he's done stuff.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

What. What did it mean to you?

[John McPhee]

Oh, I don't know. I mean, like, it's okay. I like Special Forces.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why do it? Like, when you were back. Arranged.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, like allure. I don't know. Like the John Wayne when I was a kid. Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like badass.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, like Rambo. Right. Like, that's what I thought. Kind of in the middle 90s. Not really what was happening, but later on it got better. More towards a G. What? Everything got better.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you mean? You thought it would put you in charge of your own?

[John McPhee]

Well, if I went to Special Forces Selection, I know I would go there next versus, like coming down on orders for Korea one day, you know what I mean? Just like, hey, guess what? Came some paperwork for you. Korea? Holy. No way. Right? Yeah, so I wanted to, like, avoid that.

[Megyn Kelly]

So how do you get into Special Forces?

[John McPhee]

You got to go to Selection. They got Selection.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, it's like a tryout.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, try out.

[Megyn Kelly]

What does selection mean?

[John McPhee]

It's a lot of stupid shit, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, is it one day you show up.

[John McPhee]

Oh, no, it's like a run. No. Okay. Special Forces selection kind of works like this. It's based off a team, and you got to work in a team, right? And it's 12 guys in a. In a team. A Special Forces, a team, right? And then so you kind of grouped in 12 guys. And then like, you do like, random stuff. Like, you got to build these. They'll give you like one wheel, some pipe, and a 500 pound barrel. And it's like, it's. You got to take it 20 miles that way. Go.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's very MacGyvery.

[John McPhee]

Very MacGyvery. Right?

[Megyn Kelly]

And then you're the right background for this too, though.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, but I. You're not in charge every day. And then if someone bad's in charge and they talk about they do stupid, you're stuck doing their stupid all day long. I was on the worst team ever, I think, in selection.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, no. Some of those guys might be listening to this right now.

[John McPhee]

I don't care. They were. You know what I mean? Like, I do not give a. You know what I mean? It's probably where that. Why they are where they are now. You know what I mean? They were bringing you down, trying to hold me back.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you. You made it though. You got select. So you get selected to then train into Special Forces.

[John McPhee]

Yep. And then they call it the Q course.

[Megyn Kelly]

And is what's that like, the qualification?

[John McPhee]

A lot of. I was an engineer, so that's the explosives, but we do a lot of other stuff, like building stuff. Like basically you're a general contractor for like, houses. They teach you that stuff and then.

[Megyn Kelly]

Useful.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, super useful. Right. And then explosives and a lot of explosive stuff.

[Megyn Kelly]

What. What's Delta Force? And when did you try out for that?

[John McPhee]

So, yeah, the mid-90s, Special Forces, you know, the Bill Clinton army kind of sucked. No ammo, no training, no money. Right. So a buddy of mine, I was at his house, I don't know, I was on leave, we were drinking, smoking cigars, and he just gave me a yellow sticky with a time and place. So I was like, what's this? And it was like this field on post. So he's like, yeah, you're gonna be there at 6 in the morning. It's like. It's like midnight, man. No way. I ain't going nowhere at six in the morning, right? I went and he talked me into going. He was a Mogadishu guy. And I went. And that's it. I passed.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So that was you in Special Forces trying to make it on Delta Force, which is yet another sort of next elite level.

[John McPhee]

But in my day, you didn't know what Delta Force was like. If someone went, there is a black hole. You just never seen them again. You didn't even know they were alive. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

So why'd you do it? Why'd you show up at 6am what.

[John McPhee]

Else was I gonna do? Sometimes I do my best work hungover. What's up?

[Megyn Kelly]

How was the. How hard was the tryout or the.

[John McPhee]

Oh, so first off, it ain't easy, I'm gonna say that. But at the same time, it's great, man. They leave you alone you walk through the mountains like, yeah, yeah, I'm here. You gotta go like, I don't know, like you have maps. You ever see like the big forest?

[Megyn Kelly]

Already sweating, that's, that's making me nervous.

[John McPhee]

I know it's probably the worst thing you want to hear.

[Megyn Kelly]

I would never make it.

[John McPhee]

But like you'd have maps and they're like this big and like the guy would give you a point and you'd be like, wait, wait. And you're like, yeah, like five of these. And you're like, I gotta go like three of these maps today, man. You know what I mean? And then nightmare.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

And then you just go. And then this.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, maybe they knew even before Bin Laden knew where you were going to wind up. But that was perfect training for what ultimately would be asked of you.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, 100. I was ready.

[Megyn Kelly]

Were you in Delta Force when 911 happened?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so you're doing your training, what still down in Savannah?

[John McPhee]

I was at Brack, Fort Bragg.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[John McPhee]

And then, well, 911 I was trying to skydive to go to free fall jump master school, teach people to skydive.

[Megyn Kelly]

Of course you were.

[John McPhee]

That's what I do.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what happened on 9 11? Were you, what was your reaction to that day?

[John McPhee]

Well, the first plane, I was like, like it looked like a little plane.

[Megyn Kelly]

Crashed in, you know, we didn't know.

[John McPhee]

Some drunken idiot in his, in his little plane crashed in. Right. And then the second was like, oh shit. And then, and we were grounded and that was it, you know, then you knew it was like something bad, serious.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, you knew. But unlike the rest of us, you actually were gonna have to answer the call. I mean, does that.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is that exciting? Is it nerve wracking? Is it everything?

[John McPhee]

It's a lot of things, but I would say this is as too far in not to go, you know what I mean? I was excited as nervous, you know, like the whole. I say this all the time. People are going to have a thousands emotions today, right? Like it's just how people work. You'll have a thousand emotions. Don't let it stop on the bad ones. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

I know what you mean, but it's harder to do than actually, you know.

[John McPhee]

It sounds maybe, I don't know, you.

[Megyn Kelly]

Know, people get stuck. They get stuck in sort of obsessive thinking. Especially if their life might be on the line.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, people get stuck.

[Megyn Kelly]

So how do you rejigger that if that's you and you get stuck on.

[John McPhee]

Something, Smack them in the back of the head. Sometimes you need that, you know what I mean? Sometimes I need that, you know what I mean? Snap them out of it.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what. What. What was the first word you had that you were getting deployed and to where?

[John McPhee]

Well, there's a lot of things happening between 9, 11, and before we deployed. I think the original plan is we were supposed to save some hostages in Kabul, and then we ended up doing the Tora Bora thing. So what we trained for and what happened, we're completely different animals, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you know why that's the way.

[John McPhee]

To cookie crumbles, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, follow what they tell you.

[John McPhee]

Just go, you know what I mean? You're not in charge. Someone else is making the calls. You just got to do your best when the time comes.

[Megyn Kelly]

Was Tora Bora then, the first place you went?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

Tora Bora.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, can tell us about that. Tell us. What was that? How did that just describe you? Because I've heard you talk about Sean, right? It sounds. I mean, like you were looking for bin Laden.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, so, yeah, we were looking for bin Laden. The Tora Bora was like a stronghold for bin Laden, Al Qaeda, whatever they call themselves, right? And the Russians could never get in there. Right? And I think somebody. I don't know who said it, but it was 10. It took 10 of us 10 days.

[Megyn Kelly]

To do what?

[John McPhee]

To get everybody out of those mountains. Either kill them or have them come out and surrender. But it took 10 of us 10 days. There were Russians never took it. They had 10,000 soldiers, you know, so.

[Megyn Kelly]

How we do that?

[John McPhee]

We bombed the. Out of those guys. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Thanks to all your explosives training.

[John McPhee]

No, it was more like Air Force stuff, you know what I mean? Unfortunately not. My. I mean, if I had to blow them up one at a time, like, that would be awesome. But we bombed them, so it was more of an Air Force thing. We had to call in the radio for bomb.

[Megyn Kelly]

Was that that deployment, that. That moment when you showed up in Torah Bora the first time you ever killed a man?

[John McPhee]

Yeah. Yeah. War. Like, let's go, people. Man, we killed hundreds of people on the first day. Like, I can't tell you how many people died or. You know what I mean? They're just everywhere, side of the mountains, like. And then sometimes guys get blown up. There's only pieces, you know what I mean? And. And they'd just be on the side of the mountain, like, what do you do?

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, well, how does that. Does that affect you? At all as a, you know, as a man or is it just. No, I'm a soldier.

[John McPhee]

I mean, you know, you come, you, I'll tell you this, you want to come to a gunfight and you end up dead, it's your fault. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

They started it.

[John McPhee]

Well, and it's the Delta Force. You're gonna die, like, it's not gonna be a good look for you, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I just felt like all those guys needed to die. Like they're evil, you know what I mean? Like it's evil to just like, you know, Afghanistan in generals, it's like biblical times with trucks and cell phones like they do up, you know what I mean? So these, I don't, there's no doubt in my mind that these guys needed to die, you know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Were they connected to bin Laden?

[John McPhee]

Yeah. All his like inner guys, you know what I mean?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So in 10 days you managed to route out this, this mountain area that nobody else had gotten to, the Russians included. And then what?

[John McPhee]

Well, Bin Laden wrote a death letter. He wrote a death letter. It's on the Internet, but he wrote a letter. He thought he was gonna die.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is this the one where he was. This is a different letter from the one that the morons were circulating on Tick Tock about a year and a half ago saying, this is amazing. He's so smart. He's got such good reasons for attacking us. That happened.

[John McPhee]

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

You really wouldn't. You should. I don't stay off the Internet and you should not. I do not know, Gen Z. I don't think you'll be happy.

[John McPhee]

I don't do any social media.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, so what happened? Because you, you didn't find Bin Laden there, but you found all of his henchmen.

[John McPhee]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

You killed him.

[John McPhee]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then are you like done? Because Bin Laden's still out there.

[John McPhee]

A ceasefire. A ceasefire and someone called a ceasefire. And I would also say there's a couple helicopters flew over to battlefield, which I still to this day don't know who they were.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, you think he was escaping?

[John McPhee]

I look at it this way. If, if the first 10 days of the war, 10 guys kill bin Laden, where's the war on terror at?

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, this is interesting.

[John McPhee]

The checkbook would have never got opened.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, that's really interesting.

[John McPhee]

That's what I think.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you're pretty cynical about our military industrial complex.

[John McPhee]

I wouldn't say cynical. Like, I mean, I enjoyed my time. I love grenades, you know What I mean, but I do think like the rug was pulled out from under us.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I mean, it definitely was at the end, but are you talking about right here, right now, when you're trying to find. You don't think that the military brass wanted you to find him? They wanted it to go on and on?

[John McPhee]

No, I think someone else intervened and put him in hiding. Someone who owned helicopters. Regular people own helicopters. Who owns helicopters? You know what I mean? And then how come I've never heard about this anywhere else?

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't know. No one wants to talk about this.

[John McPhee]

I know, right? See what I'm saying?

[Megyn Kelly]

But I mean, are you talking about like I say, the military industrial complex, like one of these big contractors, or are you talking about us? Us, Us.

[John McPhee]

I don't know. I mean, you can make your own guesses, you know what I'm saying? But I would say this is like, okay, where's the story between where he lived in Pakistan and Tora Bora? Where's that story? Also by. I want to know that story.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do we know?

[John McPhee]

I have no, I have no idea. Yeah. You ever heard anything?

[Megyn Kelly]

No.

[John McPhee]

We need this, like these JFK files. Let's go. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

You actually have a shot at it right now with this administration.

[John McPhee]

Well, there you go, you talk. You know these guys.

[Megyn Kelly]

I got a friend over at the Pentagon.

[John McPhee]

There you go.

[Megyn Kelly]

We can get to the bottom of that.

[Sean Ryan]

There you go.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, that's, I mean, unfortunately and totally understandably so many of our veterans are asking these questions now, including Sean. You know, I talked to him at length about his questions about who are the good guys and.

[John McPhee]

Oh, we're not. I don't think we are. You know, I don't think we're good friends.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why?

[John McPhee]

I think we deal on a short timeline, a four year timeline. And I think everyone else is like been in charge for 50 years, you know what I mean? And they've seen us flip flop back and forth and we pull, we push, we tug a war with the rope. It never ends out good. We're not good friends. And then as soon as you don't do what you we want, we're gonna chuck you under the bus and move the on, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Give me an example.

[John McPhee]

I don't know tons of stuff, you know what I mean? I'm giving you example right now. Where are these helicopters at? Where's the story of Bin Laden till from Abbottabad, where that's where the officers are trained in Pakistan. Interesting, right? And how did he get out of Afghanistan. He's on dialysis. You mean this Guy walked over 14,000 foot mountains in the snow with his little woolen blanket and his dialysis machine, but left all his people behind? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but I think George Bush said dead or alive, and I think the Pentagon was risk adverse and, and I think that's where the disconnect was at that time. But I think someone else stepped in and took Bin Laden into hiding.

[Megyn Kelly]

And when we found him in 2010, in my exact time, it was 20, I think 11. I was on maternity leave with my dad.

[John McPhee]

It was an election year.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you think that was by design?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, they were.

[Megyn Kelly]

He was more useful. Who's more useful dead?

[John McPhee]

Obama needed to get reelected. It's time.

[Megyn Kelly]

And so allow Price allowed him to be killed.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So is that just your gut having been in the army for 20 years or.

[John McPhee]

Hell yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean that's like, that's the worst possible, like, take on our commander in chief and what they might do, like in danger, Continue a war where guys are getting killed, their limbs blown off. What to improve your. So you can get the election under your belt. It's just.

[John McPhee]

So that's the way it works.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh my gosh, it's so horrible to even consider.

[John McPhee]

I mean, that's the way it works.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, if I had been over there and seen my guys blown up, I think I'd be very angry if, if I believe this, I'd be very pissed off. Are you angry? I mean, believing this?

[John McPhee]

I mean, being angry wouldn't get me a cup of coffee. You know what I'm saying?

[Megyn Kelly]

I know, but either you feel it or you don't.

[John McPhee]

If you, you know, I look at it this way. I had a great time. I did everything I could. I did as much as I could every time I could. And I always try to do the right thing at the same time, like I can't control everything. You know what I mean? And then does it make me mad? Sure do. I hate that, like, you know, that the politicians disagree on something and it costs your son his life. Right. Like ridiculous. Right. But at the same time, like, I was having the time of my life, so I wasn't questioning. You know, anytime you drink from the bottle of hindsight, everything gets clearer, you know what I mean? But at the time, like, I didn't question it, I just want. I was on to the next, like, war was my life, you know, And I was good at it. And I saved lives. I saved a ton lives in war. All those Things combined, kept me back, coming back to it. Whether it's right, wrong, indifferent. Like these are things that I can't control. So I even dwell on it. You know what I mean? It's. It's almost. It's. And then you'll get stuck in there. It's muddy water. You'll get styes. Quicksand. You'll sink in it. Like, why this? Why that? Like, why ask why?

[Megyn Kelly]

You haven't been through therapy. This is just your own thinking.

[John McPhee]

I don't go to therapy.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, I. I assume you know a.

[John McPhee]

Therapist like I do.

[Megyn Kelly]

I actually know a really good one. But I don't think you need him. I don't think you got your head on your. On your shoulders.

[John McPhee]

I try.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's life therapy right there. I don't know. It's. Somehow you manage to get, like, a really clear view on all of this. But so many guys I've talked to, them come back.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Traumatized.

[John McPhee]

Well, I call it the. The last chapter. They're stuck in the last chapter. You know what I mean? Like, they can't get out of that chapter. And whether. But what really happens is, like, the story's not over. You know what I mean? I mean, I was under the age of 40 doing all that stuff. Well, I got a lot more years, like, so your life never gets better. You're never going to enjoy anything again. Like, get out of that chapter. Right. And write a new chapter.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is it the. In part, like, the adrenaline rush that you miss? Like, it. It's tough to recreate that in civilian life.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, it's more than the adrenaline rush. You know what I mean? It's so much more. I mean, when you're really good at something, it's all you want to do. And when, you know, guys are really good at something, I could. You could save lives by sending guys that are really, really good at this. You know what I mean? So I think it's just one of those things where it's. It's a calling, and it's not really your choice. You know what I mean? But at the same time, it's a choice you got to make.

[Megyn Kelly]

When were you in Tora Bora?

[John McPhee]

I don't know. December of 90 or no. 01.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then you went back, right?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, I went back to Tora Bora. Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

When'd you go back?

[John McPhee]

Just a few Months later, in 2002, I went back.

[Megyn Kelly]

And was that your, like, solo? How did you end up solo in Tora Bora?

[John McPhee]

Pretty easy. I needed Pop Tarts.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. I heard that you mentioned this on Shop ride.

[John McPhee]

I was getting Pop Tarts.

[Megyn Kelly]

So I need to clarify this. You wanted the Pop Tarts, and there was something else. What was the other thing? Beef jerky.

[John McPhee]

Beef jerky.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. You needed this, so you convinced them to send you on some mission back to, like, the chow. Chow hall to get the stuff.

[John McPhee]

I just told my boss, like, hey, we doing anything tonight? I'll schedule the helicopter, and I'll go to the chow hall. I'll have their guy fill our truck.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. Then I got lost. What happened? Like, you. You never went back with the Pop Tarts and the beef jerky?

[John McPhee]

I did, weeks later.

[Megyn Kelly]

But it seemed like you got sucked into this unit that had the good food.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then you were off to the race.

[John McPhee]

It was where everyone was. It was where all the guys were. You know? I mean, okay, first off, the default, when they deploy, like, they have beef jerky, they have the defa. The defa.

[Megyn Kelly]

What's that?

[John McPhee]

Delta Force.

[Megyn Kelly]

Delta Force. The D. O Diva. The Default diva. I'm like, who was he?

[John McPhee]

But anyway, like, you're the highest army unit. You have beef jerky. You have Pop Tarts. You have. You know what I mean? Like, stuff army guys, like, might see once a month. We should be getting every day because.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, they're serving cappuccinos.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. And then, like, the food is really good because we have our own cooks, and they care about what you eat. You know what I mean? So it's.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's good.

[John McPhee]

It's. It's. It's the army system, but it's within the army system, which makes it a little better. Right. So I was just gonna go get some Pop Tarts. And really, it's just a resupply. So I drive my Toyota truck on a helicopter. They fly me to Bagram. And then one of the commanders, the guy that wrote Kill Bin Laden, was like, hey, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm stealing popcorn.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right. I'm here for food.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

And he was like, you want to go on a mission? And I was like, yeah. I was like, well, you got to call my boss. And he's like, okay, I'll call him. And he did. And then I was like, what is it? You know what I mean? They're like, we want you to go out alone. And I'm like, this sounds risky. Okay.

[Megyn Kelly]

Just happened, like, you were just there getting the Pop Tarts. And they were like, you know, you're. You'd be good for this.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. Wow.

[Megyn Kelly]

And you. This is what kind of you wanted to do anyway? Be on your own, make your own decisions.

[John McPhee]

Oh, I didn't know if I wanted to. Like, never thought about it before then, but it. It turns out, so, yeah, something I do.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what was the mission? Why did you have to go out by yourself? Why couldn't you have?

[John McPhee]

Well, this goes back to the. The politics of it is the general at the time wouldn't let us to do it. To hit a target in Afghanistan we needed us eyes on. Makes sense. So how do you get us eyes on? You have to send out reconnaissance guys. And that's what I did. Right. And then. But you can't. No one can leave the wire.

[Megyn Kelly]

What's the wire?

[John McPhee]

The perimeter, the base. You can't.

[Megyn Kelly]

So, so that's.

[John McPhee]

So the general's like, no one can leave the base, but you gotta launch reconnaissance to get USIS on.

[Megyn Kelly]

Someone's gonna have to leave the base.

[John McPhee]

Someone's gonna have to leave the base.

[Megyn Kelly]

And that was you? Was there another guy or is it just you?

[John McPhee]

Well, the only reason they sent me is they. They kept me in because I was coming from one base to another and outstation to a major base. Yeah, I was in transit, so they just kept me in transit weeks.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. You're like, who knows? We have no idea where John.

[John McPhee]

Basically, they had a lie about what I was doing to make.

[Megyn Kelly]

Really. On the search for that beef jerky.

[John McPhee]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

You're not giving up.

[Sean Ryan]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

The guys back at the original place were probably like, where the hell are the Pop Tarts?

[John McPhee]

They were in my truck.

[Megyn Kelly]

So.

[John McPhee]

Okay, they get them later.

[Megyn Kelly]

So then how long is this solo mission through?

[John McPhee]

Back through Tora Bora just probably took me 10 days. Ish.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why are you going back there when we already blew up the people?

[John McPhee]

Well, the last guy to supposedly help bin Laden out of the valley just came back from Pakistan with him and his sons.

[Megyn Kelly]

With bin Laden and his sons or with his own.

[John McPhee]

His own sons. Like supposedly during the battle of Tora Bora because he lived near there. There was. He was the facilitator of getting people in and out of there.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so we wanted to kill him or we wanted to capture.

[John McPhee]

We wanted to capture him because we thought maybe he brought bin Laden out of there. Okay, so the last lead for bin Laden was this guy. Because we have everybody else, all his people, his bodyguard, his cook, is everybody.

[Megyn Kelly]

So do they tell you where you're going and then it's just up to you to get yourself there?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, did they show you that spot on the Map. And you're like, I gotta figure this out.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right. So they. They're like, we believe we know where he is.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Now good luck to you.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. Go find him. And it.

[Megyn Kelly]

How?

[John McPhee]

Pretty simple. Like, he's. It's only one valley, like, and there's only. You know what I mean? There's only. I had already been there. That's one of the things, right? So I kind of knew the. I knew the terrain, right.

[Megyn Kelly]

And it's like bad guys trying to kill you everywhere.

[John McPhee]

Everywhere.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

How do you.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Get past the bad guys?

[John McPhee]

Like, in checkpoints.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

You act like a.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like an American, though, right? They knew you were an American?

[John McPhee]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

They thought you were one of them.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

What?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

How's that possible? You're as pasty as I am.

[John McPhee]

I have a big. Because of Russians raped people. People look like me in Afghanistan. Lots of them.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, wow. I didn't think of that.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you would act like a local and like a nutcase, and they'd let you walk right by all the time. What would acting like a nutcase look like?

[John McPhee]

Well, the. So, like, this guy. The first time happened to me, this guy, like, jams his AK in my chest, and it's like. Like I'm supposed to say something. And I just figured if I speak American right now, I'm dead. That's it. You know what I mean? So I figured, well, I'll act like a. And I figured, okay, how would a guy sound? First off, It'd be volume 11, right. So loud you don't even want to listen. And then it'd be mongoloid stuff. So I was just kind of like. And the guy's like, move along.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you have your ak?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did he know that?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, so he knew. Like, it's not unusual to be armed there, even if you're not.

[John McPhee]

Everybody.

[Megyn Kelly]

Everybody's armed. Okay.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

Everyone's.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's incredible.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you find the destination, and did you get eyes on the guy?

[John McPhee]

Yeah. Videotape, too.

[Megyn Kelly]

And that's. That was the mission. Not, don't take him out, don't try to kidnap him. Just tell us if he, in fact, is there. So now you got the evidence. Was that a moment, like, when you saw him? You're like, holy. Did you know it was him, first of all, or were you just. Could. It could be some rando?

[John McPhee]

Well, when I was. I was in a truck. I was in with a bunch of people. No one knows I'm American. I had. As we drove by, I put My video camera under my arm, and I video camera the house, and, like, dude was on the front porch luckily.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you got a good shot of him?

[John McPhee]

All of it? Yeah, all of it. Got everything I needed.

[Megyn Kelly]

Are you sure? Because I would imagine in the moment, I've been sort of. Not in this circumstance, but I. I, not long ago did this undercover video of somebody, and I was like, I hope I got the shot. You don't know until you can go check it later. But this is a very important shot to get.

[John McPhee]

Dude was on the porch. It was perfect.

[Megyn Kelly]

You knew you had it?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you recognize him?

[John McPhee]

No, I didn't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[John McPhee]

I didn't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

You found out later that you did, in fact, get the guy?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

So then did we get him?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. And do you think it was instrumental in getting us to bin Laden? No, it wasn't.

[John McPhee]

It was not.

[Megyn Kelly]

Madam CIA analyst, whose name we still don't know, is not using that particular information and figuring out where bin Laden was.

[John McPhee]

I don't know what any of that means, but it did not help. He had no idea.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. All right. So what does that mean for you? Anything. Does that make you feel disappointed about it or, like.

[John McPhee]

Well, I always thought. Well, I thought at the time, like, a. They were gonna find out he was, like, dead in a cave later. You know what I mean? I just figured we blew him the smithereens. It might be hard to find the parts, you know what I mean? So. And then I figured, one day the truth will come out. I kind of always knew that. So.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, when you heard about the raid and.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

You saw Barack Obama on television that night.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

What was your reaction?

[John McPhee]

I thought it was great.

[Megyn Kelly]

You did?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, I thought it was great. I mean. I mean, for whatever reason Obama had, I thought it was great. And then I can tell you this. If I was Commander in Chief, the minute I heard that, I'd be like, go smoke that fool now. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yep.

[John McPhee]

End of discussion.

[Megyn Kelly]

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[Conan O'Brien]

This is former White House press Secretary Sean Spicer. We all know that Americans are still recovering from the record inflation of the past four years. Now, some in Congress want to make cuts to Medicaid, a program that provides critical health care to 72 million struggling Americans, including veterans, people with disabilities, kids and your friends and neighbors. 40% of American births are actually covered by Medicaid, and Medicaid covers health care costs for a third of children with cancer. Working families rely on this program. It has 77% support. Nearly 9 in 10Americans oppose Medicaid cuts. Donald Trump campaigned on a promise to protect Medicaid. As president, he's still promising to love and cherish Medicaid. Did you know that 12 million Medicaid families live in rural communities? Many of these people voted for Donald Trump and they didn't vote for this. If Congress cuts Medicaid, a lot of rural hospitals could close and a lot of rural families will be hurt. No matter how you look at it, cutting Medicaid just doesn't make sense. Stand with President Trump and tell Congress not to cut Medicaid in the summer.

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[Megyn Kelly]

Megan Kelly I'm Megyn Kelly, host of the Megyn Kelly show on Sirius xm. It's your home for open, honest and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal and cultural figures. Today, you can catch the Megyn Kelly show on Triumph, a Sirius XM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love. Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey and yours truly, Megyn Kelly. You can stream the Megyn Kelly show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are no Car required. I do it all the time. I love the SiriusXM app. It has ad free music coverage of every major sport, comedy talk, podcast and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free.

[John McPhee]

Go to SiriusXM.com MKShow to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com MKShow and get three months free.

[Megyn Kelly]

Offer details apply. Rob O' Neal was our first Memorial Day in depth interview. Back in. When we launched the show, we didn't even have a video yet. It was. Would have been Memorial Day of 2021 right after the show launched. And that story was just unbelievable. Just to hear it told firsthand. He's controversial now. Some people don't think he should have said it was him, blah, blah, blah. What do you think, Seals?

[John McPhee]

You know what I mean? It's always drama with those guys. You know what I'm saying?

[Megyn Kelly]

I adore him. I really admire him so deeply. I. Yeah, I'm not buying into any of that drama. All right, so now it wasn't done. Like, you're not done. The war's still going on and then you wind up going to Iraq.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. And I think that was like the. Yo, we're. They were gearing up. You know what I mean? We're. We're trying to do this. They were gearing up for Iraq.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, that's a nightmare. Like, when you look back on that one, what do you think?

[John McPhee]

Iraq? Yeah, I loved Iraq.

[Megyn Kelly]

What? No one says that.

[John McPhee]

Why?

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't know.

[John McPhee]

I mean, you're out of their mind.

[Megyn Kelly]

You have an interesting take on it. And I, I love to hear your take on Saddam Hussein because you're making some good points.

[John McPhee]

I hadn't considered Saddam, man. Like, we should have left him. We should have killed his bastard sons and told him, play along or your next. Yeah, them dudes needed to go.

[Megyn Kelly]

But he was kind of a fan of the Christians.

[John McPhee]

He was. He was. His inner circle was all Christians. The people that touched his food, washed his butt. Like, all Christian, all inner circle. And it's because of the martyr thing. You know, if you're a Muslim, you kill yourself. You're a martyr, you go to heaven. You know what I mean? As a Christian, you kill yourself, you go to hell. So he surrounded himself and put up with the Christians. That's why Iraq was actually pretty Western even back then, because he allowed Christians to have their own areas, do their own things. Right. And then, you know, ISIS allows none of that. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yep. And we had to Mess with it. So did you. You did go on a mission where you. You got. You tried to get him. Tell me again what it was. It was like, a woman. His affair partner's husband.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. Is. Yeah. We rolled up everybody that met Saddam. You know what I mean? And then we used to say, look, we're in the army, like, you know, in the. You know, our intelligence agencies, they give polygraphs and they determine their rating as sources. And, like, they'd be like, this is an unreliable source. You know what I'm saying? And we'd be like, I'm in the army. I'm pulling every thread. Let's go. I don't care. And we go check it out anyway. Most of the time, they were wrong. Yeah, what a shock. Yeah, go figure. But, yeah, Saddam had, like, a favorite sex lady. I never even heard of this.

[Megyn Kelly]

I heard you say in Sean, rangy because she was not hot.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, like. Like, I don't know what they got going, but, like, who knows what she was doing when.

[Megyn Kelly]

Closed doors.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, there's no talent. She must have been a real pro. You know what I mean? That's all I could think.

[Megyn Kelly]

She probably had some boobs.

[John McPhee]

She had to know something about something. Like, you would think, like, I don't know, like you just assumed she would be attractive. I don't know. I didn't know what you assumed.

[Megyn Kelly]

You kind of would. Everyone pictures the affair partner as somebody who's very hot. The wife could maybe or maybe not.

[John McPhee]

And none of that happening here. I mean, maybe he had some hot ones. I didn't see them.

[Megyn Kelly]

He had different taste. Maybe she had a routine. We have no idea.

[John McPhee]

She obviously had something.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so. But it wasn't her you were looking for. It was her husband. She was married.

[John McPhee]

We were. We couldn't get to her because it's hard to get to women in Iraq. So we had to get to the husband. See what I'm saying?

[Megyn Kelly]

And what. What information could we get from the husband?

[John McPhee]

I don't know. May. Maybe Saddam kind of, you know, was honey potted a little bit. He told his favorite honey pot. I don't know. Something. You know, and as a. As an army guy, not an intel guy, I'm like, let's go. Let's look into this.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll do it.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

I don't care.

[Megyn Kelly]

And do we get him?

[John McPhee]

Him?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, we got him. Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did he know anything?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, they didn't know. You know what I mean? Like, they didn't know. But we did get them. And, yeah, it was okay. This is this is kind of legendary, but I was across the street in a minivan, and I was kind of watching this shop. I had two Iraqi guys that I would use, and then I had the assault force kind of park on the corner close to the shop. And then enough time went by. We were just waiting and waiting. I told my guys to start fighting in front of the store if too much time went by. So they start a fistfight in front of the store. And then people come out, like, what's going on out front of the store? And the dude came out and literally put his back to, like, the van door, the assault force. And I'm like, yo, open the door. It's that dude right there. And they grabbed him. And then it was over. People were, like, looking for him. No one even knew he was.

[Megyn Kelly]

Everyone had been watching the fight. Wow.

[John McPhee]

And then later, my boss was like, man, we're so lucky that dude started the fight. I was like. I was like, that was our guys. I.

[Megyn Kelly]

What is lucky?

[John McPhee]

I'm trying to speed this up a little bit.

[Megyn Kelly]

Smart.

[John McPhee]

I mean, yeah, it's hot in the.

[Megyn Kelly]

Back of the van, so you don't have to do the interrogation or you do.

[John McPhee]

I've done a lot of them.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. They don't always send in, like, the dark arts guys from the CIA to do that crap. Like, that's. That's us, too.

[John McPhee]

Those guys are chump change. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

They're Gitmo only.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So how do you make a guy like that talk? And by the way, easy. How do you communicate with one another? You have a translator there.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, you gotta have a terp people to speak the language, but yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you mean, easy? How is it easy?

[John McPhee]

Everybody talks.

[Megyn Kelly]

They do.

[John McPhee]

Oh, are you kidding me?

[Megyn Kelly]

You torture them. What do you do?

[John McPhee]

You don't gotta do. It's easy.

[Megyn Kelly]

What?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

Fear and common sense is a powerful tool. You know what I mean? Most of the time. Like what? Okay, think about this, okay? This is every human being. This me. This is you. Look, there's stuff that you're gonna die with that you ain't telling no one about. Everybody does that, Right? Does that make sense to you?

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't know. I'm kind of an open book. But okay, yes, I am, too. Generally true.

[John McPhee]

There's secrets people keep to their grave. Right? That's basically what I'm saying. Right? And then there's other shit, like, what's your cousin's car look like that you just ain't holding it. Ain't worth like, getting beat over. It ain't worth fighting over. Like, it's a little white car.

[Megyn Kelly]

This is a small point of order, but did he know that the wife was having an affair with Saddam Hussein the entire time? He did.

[John McPhee]

What do you do?

[Megyn Kelly]

Was he. Was he okay with it? I'm just kind of curious what the sex dynamic is.

[John McPhee]

I would imagine he felt lucky to be alive every day.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right.

[John McPhee]

You know what I'm saying?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. He'd be a very easy guy to get rid of. And then you could have the side piece whenever you wanted it. But I guess he could anyway. So what's the point of killing the husband?

[John McPhee]

I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

So he gave up whatever info. And did we find Saddam Hussein after that?

[John McPhee]

Shortly after that, yeah. We were. Look, we had to run all the. Look, manhunting is like a sweater. When, like, you have a yarn on a sweater, you pull it, right? One of those threads is gonna. The arm's gonna come off one of those threads. You pull it out forever. It doesn't do nothing. You know what I mean? So we're gonna pull every thread.

[Megyn Kelly]

This is the process.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So when you. Was that the biggest thing that you did while you were in Iraq, would you say, like, the most.

[John McPhee]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

Serious thing?

[John McPhee]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

No.

[John McPhee]

What.

[Megyn Kelly]

What else did you do?

[John McPhee]

Zarqawi was Serious days.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, my God. That was dark. That was the dark stuff. You were over there with all the beheadings and all that. Oh, my God. I mean, does that scare you? You're only a man. You're a man.

[John McPhee]

I mean, I don't know. I wasn't really scared, but I did get a sword off his Arkawi truck. That was, like a Roman short sword. And, like, there's pictures of me. I got my shirt off. I'm like. I don't know if you ever seen those, but I wanted to. I would have cut one of their heads off. You know what I mean? Like. But no, it didn't scare me. You know, Zarqawi was a bully, and he liked to pick on the weak. He didn't want to pick on us. You know what I mean? And then, you know. Yeah, the Zarqawi days were great. Foreign fighters was great. I mean, I don't know. I loved it all. But, like, the foreign fighters, like, you just show up in front of the house, have my guy get on the bullhorn, they'd start shooting. We'd level the house, you know? Like, those days were great. I mean, I think those days were great because that's when the military finally let us take the gloves off and be like, okay, you guys do this your way. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Is this now 067?

[John McPhee]

Yeah. Zara was six. You know what I mean? But they'd finally start to let the gloves come off, you know, I, like, I think we were. We were throttled a lot through a lot of stuff, but I feel like through the Zarqawi days, no one gave a shit how we were getting it done. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

So how long were you over there? Or how many deployments do you have?

[John McPhee]

I think I got 10. And then, like, I got a bunch of, like, the surge and the stay.

[Megyn Kelly]

Lates and, like, went back and back back. Yeah, 10 deployments.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

And then as a SARM major, I. I spent a lot of time there, but it didn't really count as a deployment. I was back and forth.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, wow. So then what, like, how does it end for you? They just send you back home before the fight is done? Or did you fight all the way to the end of the.

[John McPhee]

No, I was a sergeant major. I retired in 11.

[Megyn Kelly]

You're getting older.

[John McPhee]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

They don't let you serve forever, really. Right.

[John McPhee]

Oh, man, you're only young so long, you know. But I'll tell you what, with stem cell, have stayed another 10 years if modern science was hitting.

[Megyn Kelly]

So interesting to talk to you and hear you talk about how fun it was, because it seems like the hell of war and the trauma that guys have, the ptsd, but there's something about, like, what is it? Is it working with your comrades in arms? Is it like doing the thing that you've been told to do and you're really good at it? You love that. Is it all like, what is that? What is fun?

[John McPhee]

I mean, why be ashamed of trying your best no matter what that is? I think, right? And I think that's really what it boils down to. I mean, yeah, I could be ashamed. Did a lot of people die? Yeah, a lot of people died.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you be ashamed?

[John McPhee]

Some of the wrong people die. Sure. You know what I mean? Did innocent people die? Sure. But, like, this is war, and essentially war is you kill the bad guy and break his, so he can't use that shit against you. If I was told to go do that, why am I the bad guy in this? I'm not. You know what I mean? I'm just doing my best on a daily basis, you know? And then at the end of the day, I always seen it as I'm in the army, I take orders let's go. And a lot of times, I like those orders, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

What was the brotherhood dynamic?

[John McPhee]

Oh, man. You would think it's kind of interesting. You would think the brotherhood would have been strong, but, like, the war, like, builds bonds. You can't. You can't get anywhere else, I guess. You know what I mean? Like, you'd think, like, there's always a brotherhood, right? Well, we talk about the brotherhood, but we just joked about seal drama, you know what I'm saying? So, having said that, I think there's, like, guys that I'm, like, I was in combat with that we have a bond. I think there's certain people I have bonds with over different stuff, but I think that bond, the brotherhood is. Is just, you know, the experiencing the best and worst of humanity at the.

[Megyn Kelly]

Same time, you know, and when your life is on the line, it just adds, I don't know, so much more to it. I would think, like, you're risking it all together and. Yeah, any one of you might not be there the next night.

[John McPhee]

Night.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

I mean, I always say, like, I. I always say. Well, I said this to my guys, too, but I. We all gave Uncle Sam a blank check. Get ready. Don't be mad if it gets cash, but don't be mad for somebody when their check is cash because they died doing what they loved. Can't be mad at that either.

[Megyn Kelly]

Were there any women in your unit? Maybe you're not allowed to tell me.

[John McPhee]

I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Can women be rangers?

[John McPhee]

I don't know. That's a good question. I think so these days. I don't know. Like, I don't know how it works.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you ever have to deal with that dynamic out in the field? Like, men and women serving together?

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Just seems so weird to me. I don't know. I know nothing.

[John McPhee]

I think women have very niche roles and can have very niche roles. I've worked with women. I've had women partners. They were great, but I think there's a role for them, and they're not like the one you send, you know, get Zarqawi. Right. There's other stuff they do. So. Yes, we have. We have. Women always had women, like, and it. Yeah, I mean, it's. I think there's more women on the planet than men. I don't know. Why this show?

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I'm just. I'm curious about. I'm back to your dating life now. Like, can you meet a woman somehow? Or you're like, how do you fall in love? How do you like?

[John McPhee]

Man, I'll tell you, this is. I started out married at 9, 11. I've been divorced several times. It's a hard life, you know, I don't think. I think it's a hard life because no one understands, like, your level of commitment. And I. I say that in a way, like you're choosing something that might cause your death over and over. People don't see that as rational, but they don't understand. You know what I mean? But so I would say. I always say this is like being married was like being in prison. You could call home and you ain't going there anytime soon. You know what I mean? That's just how it works.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you mean? I don't think I get it. I don't get it.

[John McPhee]

That's how marriage works in the Army. Like, when you deploy to war, you could call home. You get your one phone call home.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. Call home, like, once a week.

[Megyn Kelly]

Not gonna be together a whole lot.

[John McPhee]

Yeah. But you ain't go. You ain't going home.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

You know what I mean? And that's tough on anybody. I would. I would say this. Only guys that had perfect relationships, their marriages survive the war.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow.

[John McPhee]

You know what I mean? And I'd say the bulk of guys end up divorced.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you have kids?

[John McPhee]

I do.

[Megyn Kelly]

How old are they?

[John McPhee]

I stopped keeping track when they turned over. 21.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. How many kids do you have?

[John McPhee]

I have two.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Are they good?

[John McPhee]

Yeah, they're good.

[Megyn Kelly]

They're good.

[John McPhee]

They're good people.

[Megyn Kelly]

Are they going into the military at all?

[John McPhee]

My son was in the army and works for the army now.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. So when it all wind, when it ends, you know, Iraq eventually ends. Afghanistan ended disastrously and recently.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is that a moment for reflection on what it meant, what role you played? Whether it was worth it, like, or no. Is it just. I'm a soldier. I did my job. Next chapter.

[John McPhee]

Well, it wasn't worth it. I mean, everyone can see that, right? It's not just me. I don't think it was worth it at all. I had a great time. I would say none of it was really worth it in a strategic sense, in a tactical sense. You know what I mean? Like, honestly. But the reality is, is, like, man, I had the time of my life, and I. I would want anyone to know, like, people. People like to thank me for my service. And it's like, I did whatever the I wanted. I don't actually need any thanks, you know what I mean? Like a kid who was like a cook Getting mortared in wherever, in Iraq, nightly. That kid needs to be thanked. Like, I just. I was just doing what I do.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, how do you reconcile it with stories like, you know, Marcus Luttrell and what happened to him, and he's definitely got some lasting PTSD from that. It's been a rough, rough ride back home.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, I don't even get that. Eyes out alone all the time. Like, I was out alone in Afghanistan. I don't get how being the lone survivor, I just don't understand that story. Only because I was out alone all the time. It didn't happen to me. You know what I mean? Because of the decisions I make on the ground.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, you're not blaming him.

[John McPhee]

I'm not blaming him. I'm just saying that's so foreign to me. I don't even understand it, because I can tell you this. The Taliban could come after me. It'd be a whole lot of dead bodies for sure. And I'm just one person.

[Megyn Kelly]

I believe that.

[John McPhee]

Imagine if there was two or three of me.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, that's one of the worst stories of the war. And what he went through is. It's awful. And it's not just him. You know, I was it last year. No, it's two years ago. We talked to Dakota Meyer. He's doing great now, but, you know, he came back. He won the. Was awarded the Medal of Honor and didn't want to kill himself. Like, he. There are tough, tough guys. Not. These are not weak men who they. They don't process it the way you do. I think if you could somehow teach this, it would be extremely valuable. Right?

[John McPhee]

I could teach anybody this.

[Megyn Kelly]

I. I feel like anybody could use this. People who have different traumas.

[John McPhee]

It would start by me locking you in a room and beating you first.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly. I might sign up for that.

[John McPhee]

I think people would.

[Megyn Kelly]

Don't touch the moneymaker.

[John McPhee]

No, of course. Of course. No bruises, no marks. I'm a pro. Like, I've done a bunch of interrogation. I got this.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, like, is there some sort of toughen you up, John camp? No, there isn't. I mean, the shirt.

[John McPhee]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

What does it read? Team S.O.B. yeah, I called you tough S.O.B. same thing. So this is not something I can sign up for, so. Or I can go learn.

[John McPhee]

I don't have any classes like this. Maybe I should.

[Megyn Kelly]

You're missing an opportunity.

[John McPhee]

Leadership. Right. Leadership.

[Megyn Kelly]

Can it be taught?

[John McPhee]

I think so. I think so. Like most of my guys. If my guys killed somebody, I brought Them all in a room. I made everyone have a drink. I made sure I told them they did exactly right. You know, this was expected of them, right? Like, this is your job. Like someone should thank you. And I think if all that happens on the spot, you're less likely to carry the guilt with you later. So I believe a lot of this is framed up poorly, a long time ago. And then I believe guys ride the hall pass for a long time. And I call the hall pass booze. But some people do drugs. Some people do. I don't know what people do, but for me, my hall pass was booze. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

And then still drink or. No, no more.

[John McPhee]

Well, I'm training for Worlds right now, so I am currently not drinking Worlds.

[Megyn Kelly]

In what?

[John McPhee]

Jiu Jitsu.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, wow. All you ex military guys do Jiu Jitsu? Why is that?

[John McPhee]

I don't know Jiu Jitsu. It's an hour of my day where I don't have to look at the phone. It's. Sometimes there's minutes where someone's actually like choking the living out of me.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, I hear.

[John McPhee]

And the stubborn side of me is like, I'm not giving it to him. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Isn't it involuntary?

[John McPhee]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

What?

[John McPhee]

Well, no.

[Megyn Kelly]

When they choke you out. No.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, it's not involuntary. Okay. I gotta learn those moves.

[John McPhee]

If you are. If you make me give it to you, I'll give it to you. Otherwise you could choke the out of me and I'll just ride it, you know? But when I'm in real survival mode, someone puts me in trouble. I gotta think about what's next. My leverage, my everything control. My breathing, my heart rate. I call that real survival mode. Like that's. I'm. I'm so thankful for that. It's a. It's a clarity of some type. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, I hear so.

[John McPhee]

It's like, you know how like people talk about runners high? Like, you know, I do cardio, it doesn't make me high ever. I've always hated it. But like Jiu Jitsu is. I don't know, sometimes when I'm in real survival, I don't got to think about my phone. I don't got to think about my life.

[Megyn Kelly]

Are you always going against somebody who knows what they're doing? Is it, is it usually an instructor or another? Like, like, well, participant.

[John McPhee]

Because, Because I travel. I hit, I think 28, 30 different dojos a year. I just walk in and.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you worry about like out matching somebody to the point where you're gonna hurt them and suit or.

[John McPhee]

I'm not gonna hurt anyone.

[Megyn Kelly]

Cause permanent damage. No, I'm a recovering lawyer. This is how I think about these things.

[John McPhee]

Oh, no, not at all. It's Jiu Jitsu. Like, look, this is unarmed.

[Megyn Kelly]

Hurting somebody. There's not. There's hurting somebody.

[John McPhee]

I'm not gonna. Well, yeah, but you stop.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is it like.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, as you get better at it. The point of submission. If you thought I was going to hurt you, you could tap. Okay, so that's your escape button.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's like the. The safe gesture. Don't. Don't hurt me anymore, please.

[John McPhee]

I've had enough. Yeah, you just tap.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what are you doing now?

[John McPhee]

I'm training for Worlds cutting.

[Megyn Kelly]

What you doing for money?

[John McPhee]

Oh, I teach people to shoot.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah, because you're a sniper.

[John McPhee]

I was.

[Megyn Kelly]

We didn't even get. We didn't even go over that.

[John McPhee]

No, no, no, no.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

How many guns do you own?

[John McPhee]

Seriously?

[Megyn Kelly]

I couldn't count more or less than JD Vance's mama had in her house when she.

[John McPhee]

I don't even know how many that is.

[Megyn Kelly]

I think it was 19.

[John McPhee]

Oh, yeah. I don't want to admit to anything. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Where are you living?

[John McPhee]

I live in Raleigh, North Carolina.

[Megyn Kelly]

No where specifically. Give us the street at. No, I'm. I'm only kidding. I'm not kidding. So you settled in the warmth?

[John McPhee]

Well, I live near Fort Bragg still.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[John McPhee]

You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

And you, you work with them and do you do anything?

[John McPhee]

I don't do anything at Fort Bragg. Try not to.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you do for fun? Like, how do you let your hair down?

[John McPhee]

I do Jiu Jitsu. I off road with my buddies. I got one of them side by side off road vehicles. Yeah, I do that.

[Megyn Kelly]

There's this guy who goes in the side one. Put on a little white scarf and a little leather helmet.

[John McPhee]

He'll get it muddy, you know what I mean? I wouldn't bring light on these trips, but. Yeah, we. We normally off road in the Arizona mountains. Yearly. Yeah, we go to this place. Crown king, oldest bar. There's no dirt. It's all dirt roads, no pavement. Stay up there in cabins and it's kind of like, I don't know, we off road, we drive. I eat cheeseburgers and I drink whiskey and then.

[Megyn Kelly]

Sounds right on brand.

[John McPhee]

I do that all weekend. I don't shower either. I don't even care.

[Megyn Kelly]

Ever.

[John McPhee]

Let's go. We're four wheeling.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so you shower Just not on this particular trip.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, but I. Four wheel, man. I. You know, and then I just. I love teaching people to shoot. It's kind of like the thing I'm really good at.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow.

[Sean Ryan]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you think? I know you're not. You don't really watch the news. Do you follow politics at all? Like, what do you think of Trump? What do you think of Pete? Hexeth is the top guy at Pentagon.

[John McPhee]

Yeah, well, first off, talk to Pete. I need one of these Pentagon jobs. Tell me I shouldn't be.

[Megyn Kelly]

I will.

[John McPhee]

The Deputy of Special Operations.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is that what you would like?

[John McPhee]

Hell, yeah. Let's go.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll make a call.

[John McPhee]

Oh, man. But look, I like Trump. I like Vance. I like Pete. I like what they're doing. And, like, what can I say? Like, I think they make good inherent decisions, like, for long term, which we're not really used to here. You know what I mean? But I think they're all good. I don't. I don't watch the news or nothing, but I think they're good so far. I think. I thought Trump made great policies last time. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

What. Have you seen enough of Pete to know what you like about him?

[John McPhee]

Oh, man, I got a ton of buddies that know Pete. Like, everybody loves Pete. You know what I mean? Like, that's all I needed to hear. And, you know, like, the. Look, the Pentagon, we won a war lately. And, you know, know these generals will be like, oh, well, he was just lower enlisted saying that. But, like, yo, I watched you guys every day make up decisions. I try to tell you, and you'd be mad at me. You know what I mean? Like, not that I was always right, but, like, sometimes you're wrong also. And it's the. I think it's the hubris of the Pentagon that needs to be taken down a few notches, you know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[John McPhee]

And, like, anyway. Yeah, so. So I would happily serve this country and make everything better. You know what I mean?

[Megyn Kelly]

That's awesome. We need guys like you raising your hands.

[John McPhee]

Thanks.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I love that you came in to tell us your story. It's. You're such an interesting man. I love. I love everything about you. What a character you are.

[John McPhee]

Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

I hope we can find a way to get you back serving.

[John McPhee]

Let's go. Let's go. Let's call Pete. Pete, where you at?

[Megyn Kelly]

Let's call. Let's call DJT and see if he's got something for.

[John McPhee]

Call him right now. Get him on the line.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm in I, whether you want to hear or not. Thank you for your service.

[John McPhee]

You're welcome.

[Megyn Kelly]

Pleasure to meet you.

[John McPhee]

Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. All the best to you. Ah, didn't I tell you? He's unbelievable. What a guy. John McPhee, thank you once again. You know, it's just incredible the stuff that our troops go through and the different mindsets that they develop along the way. Right. It's our honor to talk to him. It's our honor to talk to all of our troops who have served in battle. And if you, if you're into what you heard today, you should go back and listen to the earlier Memorial Day shows that we've done since we launched. The first One was in 2021, and that was Rob O' Neill. We've done Marcus Luttrell, we've done Dakota Meyer, recipient of the Medal of Honor. It's just these guys are. They're living life around us. They're kind of back to normal to the extent one can be with having these incredible backgrounds. So it's well worth our time to take a moment to learn from them and remember what they and our other troops have done for us while we've been sitting at home in our air conditioning. Right, Right. So that's what today is all about, especially honing, honoring the fallen. We do that here. Thank them and their families for their service. In the meantime, I hope you have a great day with your families and I hope you have some time off. You can think about what matters. And I hope you'll tune in tomorrow when we have a live show and a special Kelly's Court. Everybody loves Kelly's Court and we are bringing it to you tomorrow. So don't miss that. We'll see you soon. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda and no fear. Did you know that chips and fries used to be cooked in tallow up until the 1990s when big corporations switched to cheap processed gross seed oils. But today, seed oils make up 20% of the average American's daily calories. And some studies have linked seed oils to metabolic health issues and inflammation in the body. We had a couple of experts on this show a couple years ago telling us about how seed oils can help create bad fat on your body. That is a lot harder to lose, FYI. Check it out. Anyway, this company, Masa, decided to do something about it. They created a tasty and delicious tortilla chip chip with just three ingredients and no seed oils. Organic corn, sea salt and 100% grass fed beef. Tallow we need this product. These chips don't just avoid all the bad stuff, they taste incredible too. This is not that hard to do. More companies need to do this. We don't need all that crap in our food. Masa is crunchier, it's tastier, and it's sturdier than other chips. And an added bonus, the beef tallow makes the chips chips much more satiating so you won't find yourself uncontrollably binging and still feeling hungry immediately thereafter. Masa Chips it's beloved by thousands of customers and it's been endorsed by industry leading health and nutrition experts. You ready to give Masa a try? Go to Masa Chips M A S A chips.commk and use code MK for 25 off your first order. That that's masachips.commk use code MK to get 25% off your first order.

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[Conan O'Brien]

Conan O' Brien here with an ad about my podcast. Conan O' Brien needs a friend. I've had so many fantastic conversations with people I truly admire. People like Michelle Obama, Bruce Springsteen, Maya Rudolph, Tom Hanks. New episodes are out every Monday and.

[John McPhee]

We have a really good time.

[Conan O'Brien]

So subscribe and listen wherever you get your podcasts.