The Megyn Kelly Show – September 2, 2025

Episode Theme: Establishment Meltdown Over RFK, New Lisa Cook Questions, and “Being a Lion Instead of a Scavenger”
Guest: Ben Shapiro (Daily Wire co-founder, author of "Lions and Scavengers: The True History of America")

Overview

In this dynamic episode, Megyn Kelly sits down in person with Ben Shapiro for a wide-ranging discussion on political establishment reactions to RFK Jr., escalating scandals at the Federal Reserve involving Lisa Cook, the “lion versus scavenger” metaphor for American civic life, foreign policy realignments, cultural grievances, COVID-era trust collapses, the media, and coming showdowns in American politics. Drawing on Shapiro’s new book, “Lions and Scavengers”, the show explores who builds and who tears down, the perils of DEI in high office, and why propaganda and institutional decline have left Americans so distrustful.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lisa Cook Scandal and DEI Failures

• Purported Mortgage & Academic Fraud
  • Lisa Cook, a Fed overseer, is embroiled in controversy amid accusations of mortgage fraud involving properties in Michigan, Atlanta, and Cambridge, MA. She allegedly claimed multiple “primary residences” at once, something she is not denying (06:59).
  • Megyn: “She DEI'd her way up to this seat. You can't just DEI your way into these powerful positions and then when you're caught, try to fall back on your non-existent qualifications.” (05:53)
• Media Double Standards
  • Mainstream outlets (CNN, NPR, The Daily) universally praise Cook as highly qualified, in contrast to their attacks on Trump for alleged real estate fraud (09:14).
  • Ben Shapiro: “It's amazing when the shoe is on the other foot, they use precisely the same defenses without any understanding of what it is they’re saying.” (08:03)
• Academic Merit Concerns
  • Cook’s tenure at Michigan State was reportedly denied by her department and pushed through by the dean (10:37).
  • Her most touted research (on “lynchings and patents”) was debunked: She misused patent application data, inflating claims of discrimination (13:13).
• DEI and Racial Narratives
  • Both hosts note the pattern: media and leftist figures elevate underqualified candidates for identity reasons, then cry racism when those individuals are questioned or criticized (13:49).
  • Ben: “You can name half a dozen Black economists who actually are really well-qualified…All those guys, very qualified, but given short shrift by the same exact people who will talk about the majestic qualifications of Lisa Cook.” (13:50)

2. Woke Orthodoxy and Cancel Culture

• Canceling Critics of BLM
  • Lisa Cook led calls to oust an academic who merely criticized “defund the police”, demonstrating woke intolerance in the academy (17:24).
  • Megyn: “She demanded his head. She, along with these other so-called commentators…were all calling for this guy to be fired.”
• Woke as Social Insurance
  • Those who play identity politics are protected until their actions become indefensible, yet even then, they often fail upwards (17:05).
  • Ben: “Now she’ll get a nice book deal out of this. She will get tenure at some other university… And she'll have a perennial slot next to Eli Hoenig, talking about what a wonderful…legal professional he is.” (17:05)

3. Foreign Policy and Global Alliances

• Realignment Concerns
  • Media overreacts to India’s Modi and Russia’s Putin appearing chummy, despite a longstanding friendly relationship (22:16).
  • Ben: “The actual geopolitical change is Modi and Xi [China]. …The idea was to box China in. If you slap India with a tariff…you could be making moves that push India in the direction of a realignment.” (24:50)
• Energy and Trade
  • The hosts dissect US-India trade stakes, Russia’s oil exports, and why realignments in Asia could shift the world order (27:11).

4. Lion vs. Scavenger: America’s Mindset Crisis

• Book’s Core Metaphor
  • Shapiro’s "Lion" is a builder; the "Scavenger" tears down, claiming victimhood while benefitting from the systems they despise (28:38).
  • Ben: “Some part of us wants to build, some part wants to destroy…Scavengers say it’s always the system’s fault. Lions don’t sit around saying, ‘this is so unfair.’” (29:05)
  • Scavengers come in three stripes: Barbarians (anti-civilization), Looters (anti-free market), and Lechers (anti-family/church), yet bizarrely unite politically (30:30).
  • Example: “Queers for Palestine”—identity-driven coalitions that paradoxically support each other, even when their interests directly conflict (31:49).

5. Cultural & Media Absurdities

• Greta Thunberg and Propaganda Heroes
  • Greta becomes the poster child of global “omnicause” scavenger mentality: from climate to Gaza activism, always against the West (36:58).
  • Ben: “She is a perfect embodiment of the omnicause…what she actually is in favor of is like all the things…She went from climate change seamlessly over to Gaza because—it’s all the same thing, which is: I just hate the civilization.” (38:07)
• PR-Schizophrenia Around Israel
  • Coldplay’s Chris Martin equivocates over a fan’s Israeli citizenship; the hosts dissect the new reluctance of Western elites to even acknowledge Israel positively (40:34).
  • Megyn: “Why wouldn’t you just say nothing? Or, ‘I’m sorry for all your country’s been going through’?”
  • Shapiro: “The fact that he felt the necessity to apologize for the presence of Israelis at his concert says something really disturbing.” (43:31)

6. Public Trust Collapse: COVID, CDC, and the Rise of Skepticism

• Institutional Betrayal
  • The CDC, FBI, and broader public health authorities have forfeited credibility, paving the way for “conspiracy thinking” (54:27), with both Megyn and Ben noting the need for trustworthy institutions—but also real accountability.
  • Megyn: “We need a CDC…a public health org that could just give us a straight scoop. Ideally, it would be one that’s non-politicized.” (55:52)
• RFK Jr. Appointment and Establishment Panic
  • RFK Jr.'s reforms in CDC have provoked resignations; Ben and Megyn both denounce the officers leaving as symbols of failed “expert” class arrogance (65:22).
  • Ben: “They’re doing the game they did with Trump: he'd say, ‘this institution sucks!’ and they’d say, ‘he’s destroying the credibility of the institution.’ No—he’s the coroner.” (66:45)
• Conspiracy Theories, Real and Imagined
  • Healthy skepticism vs paranoia: The line between justified distrust (e.g., lab-leak theory vindication) and unmoored “everything’s rigged” conspiratorial thinking (59:38).
  • Ben: “Conspiracy theories are bad, but that doesn’t mean conspiracies don’t exist. The difference…is evidence.” (57:39)

7. Media’s Evolution & the Podcasting Age

• Transparency Over “Objectivity”
  • Both hosts defend their explicit commentary as more honest than legacy media’s pretense of “objectivity” (86:23).
  • Ben: “I've been an advocate…that ‘objective journalism’ is a lie.” (87:21)
• Podcasters vs. Corporate Media
  • The rise of podcasts is derided by NYT as destabilizing, but Kelly contends it’s better to have an anarchic, plural media than a single voice or oligarchy (88:10).
• Best Practices for Truthseekers
  • Rely on several trusted individuals, not networks; cultivate discernment on the reliability of sources (76:07).
  • Megyn: “It's not just because I'm in this lane, but you have to find the person—or handful of people—you trust. That's it.” (76:43)
  • Ben: “Try to find three or four shows that you think are trustworthy…where they intersect is fact, everything else is opinion.” (77:32)

8. Coming Political Battles: 2028 and Beyond

• Democratic Primary Scenarios
  • Maryland Governor Wes Moore as a rising Democratic star, despite “stolen valor” controversy (falsely claiming a Bronze Star), and public relations missteps like vacationing on Clooney’s yacht while rejecting federal help with crime in Baltimore (93:54).
  • Ben: “His enemies constantly be-clown themselves. It's just a field of rakes and they're constantly jumping on them…If he came out in favor of abolishing cancer tomorrow, they would come out in favor of stage four.” (91:02)
• Executive Orders & The Filibuster
  • Shapiro proposes enshrining the filibuster via constitutional amendment to prevent partisan nuking.
• Long-Game Tactics
  • Discussion of how the deep structural reforms (staff reductions, agency eliminations) have more sticking power than executive orders (98:37).
  • Speculation about whether any Democrats can be considered “lions”; Rahm Emanuel named as a possible exception, but the field is grim (100:54).

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

| Time | Speaker | Quote | |---------|-----------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:43 | Megyn Kelly | “It's just like, honestly…there have been a lot of black women who have ascended to these positions on very thin credentials. And then some sort of scandal takes them down and the left freaks out...” | | 08:03 | Ben Shapiro | “It's amazing when the shoe is on the other foot, they use precisely the same defenses without any understanding of what it is they're saying.” | | 13:49 | Megyn/Ben | “It is, of course, racist. By the way, you can name half a dozen black economists…all those guys, very qualified, but given short shrift by the same exact people who will talk about the majestic qualifications of Lisa Cook.” | | 24:50 | Ben Shapiro | “The actual geopolitical change is Modi and Xi. It's not, it's not Modi and Putin…if you slap India with a tariff…you could theoretically be making moves that push India in the direction of a realignment.” | | 29:05 | Ben Shapiro | “Some part of us wants to build, some part wants to destroy…Scavengers say it’s always the system’s fault. Lions don’t sit around saying, ‘this is so unfair.’” | | 38:07 | Ben Shapiro | “She is a perfect embodiment of the omnicause…what she actually is in favor of is like all the things…She went from climate change seamlessly over to Gaza because—it’s all the same thing, which is: I just hate the civilization.” | | 43:31 | Ben Shapiro | "The fact that he felt the necessity to apologize for the presence of Israelis at his concert says something really disturbing." | | 54:27 | Ben Shapiro | “The institutions that were set up by the founders are quite good. And many of the institutions that we need in our lives…are really, really, really important. And when you start tearing away at the institutions...you can overlearn the lesson.”| | 57:39 | Ben Shapiro | “Conspiracy theories are bad, but that does not mean conspiracies do not exist. The difference…is evidence.” | | 66:45 | Ben Shapiro | “They're doing the game they did with Trump: he'd say, ‘this institution sucks!’ and they’d say, ‘he’s destroying the credibility of the institution.’ No—he’s the coroner.” | | 76:43 | Megyn Kelly | “You have to find the person—or handful of people—you trust. That's it. Like, don't trust a big platform. I wouldn't anymore. I wouldn't at all.” | | 87:21 | Ben Shapiro | “I've been an advocate…that ‘objective journalism’ is a lie.” | | 91:02 | Ben Shapiro | “His enemies constantly beclown themselves…it’s just a field of rakes and they're constantly jumping on them. No matter what [Trump] does, they have to declare themselves in opposition.” | | 98:37 | Ben Shapiro | “…What he's doing with statistics, staffing may be long term, more important. Like the reductions…eliminating departments...it takes a while to rebuild that.” |

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [06:00-17:24] — Lisa Cook scandal, DEI in government, media double standards
• [17:24-21:10] — Woke orthodoxy, cancel culture in academia and mainstream media
• [22:16-27:34] — Foreign policy: India, Russia, tariffs, US geopolitics
• [28:17-38:07] — “Lions vs. Scavengers,” BLM, Greta Thunberg, generational cultural pettiness
• [40:34-50:35] — Israel, Gaza, Coldplay, PR “wars,” how the West loses the propaganda contest
• [54:27-65:22] — Public trust breakdown, COVID, CDC, the rise of skepticism and conspiracies
• [65:22-77:32] — Expertise, epistemology, conspiracy vs. evidence, separating facts from narratives
• [86:23-88:30] — Podcasting vs. legacy media: honesty, transparency, bias, future of news
• [88:30-98:48] — 2028 politics: Wes Moore, Democratic field, executive orders, the filibuster
• [100:03-102:11] — Crime, Biden years, defining “lions” among Democrats, nostalgia for 80s/90s America

Tone & Final Thoughts

This episode combines Megyn Kelly’s blunt, sometimes acerbic commentary with Ben Shapiro’s analytical, rapid-fire intelligence and biting wit. The dialogue is candid, openly skeptical of establishment media, and rooted in a conviction that America faces a crisis of both confidence and competence—one that can only be met by “lions,” not “scavengers.” Throughout, the conversational style is quick, energetic, sometimes sardonic, but always focused on underlying philosophical and moral debates about who builds, who tears down, and whether America’s core values can survive another decade of establishment failures and woke overreach.

Recommended for:

• Listeners seeking sharp, critical perspectives on current events, culture, and U.S. institutions
• Those interested in the intersection of politics, academia, and media trust
• Fans of lively, unscripted debate featuring major conservative thought leaders

Note:
All ad reads, show opens/closes, and lengthy sponsor messages have been omitted for clarity and relevance.