Exclusive: Alleged Pentagon "Leaker" Colin Carroll Speaks Out About Life Inside DOD, Hegseth's Leadership, and to Dispute Allegations | Ep. 1058

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Megyn Kelly Show – Exclusive: Alleged Pentagon "Leaker" Colin Carroll Speaks Out | Ep. 1058

Introduction

In Episode 1058 of The Megyn Kelly Show, host Megyn Kelly engages in a candid and in-depth conversation with Colin Carroll, a former Chief of Staff to Deputy Defense Secretary Steven Feinberg at the Department of Defense (DoD). Carroll discusses his sudden termination amid a Pentagon leak investigation, addressing allegations, leadership dynamics, and the broader implications for the DoD under Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.

Background of Colin Carroll

Colin Carroll, a Marine Corps Reserve Officer, shares his military and professional background, highlighting his active duty service, including three deployments to Afghanistan. Carroll graduated from the Naval Academy as an aerospace engineer and served as an intelligence officer within the force reconnaissance community. His transition into the civilian sector included roles at Project Maven and Anduril Industries before rejoining the DoD in 2017 to work on an AI program.

"I am still in the Marine Corps Reserve. I was active duty for a while." (03:05)

The Leak Investigation and Firings

Carroll details the circumstances leading to his termination alongside two colleagues, Dan Caldwell and Darren Selnick, amid a leak investigation targeting those suspected of disclosing sensitive information to the media. Despite claims from the administration that the firings were part of a leak probe, Carroll and his counterparts steadfastly deny any wrongdoing.

"There is a real leak investigation. We can talk about that to the extent I'm allowed to share, but there is one." (10:28)

Colin Carroll’s Account of the Firing Process

Colin recounts the abrupt nature of his termination, describing the formal process and the interactions with Pentagon officials who escorted him out. He emphasizes his innocence, stating that he did not leak any classified or unclassified information and that all his communications with the media were authorized and public.

"I know for certain I did not leak anything. I know for certain I didn't do anything else that's criminal either." (33:32)

Allegations and Responses

Carroll addresses allegations made by Joe Casper, the former Chief of Staff to Defense Secretary Hegseth, who suggested that Carroll and his colleagues were involved in leaking sensitive information. Carroll disputes these claims, providing a timeline of interactions with Politico reporter Daniel Lippman and clarifying that his communication was routed through official channels.

"We are not. He didn't say that you were the Panama leaker or that you were the Elon leaker." (34:00)

Impact on DoD and Team Dynamics

The conversation delves into the internal dynamics within the DoD, particularly the strained relationship between Carroll and Joe Casper. Carroll criticizes the lack of effective teamwork and communication, attributing some of the dysfunction to Casper's leadership style. He expresses concern over the potential derailment of the DoD's objectives due to the firings and the ensuing culture of fear and toxicity.

"We just really struggled with that process. It was, it was people running in and out directly to the secretary, hey, do this, you know..." (15:09)

Thoughts on Leadership and Future Prospects

Carroll reflects on Defense Secretary Hegseth's leadership, offering a mixed assessment. While praising Hegseth's effectiveness in public engagements, such as meetings with the House Freedom Caucus, he notes instances of internal agitation and frustration that hindered departmental cohesion. Carroll expresses a desire to return to the DoD, believing that he can contribute positively if exonerated.

"I really want to go back to the department. I don't think that Pete would have me back." (75:22)

Responses from Joe Casper

Following the interview, Megyn Kelly reached out to Joe Casper for a response. Casper defended the administration's actions, portraying the firings as necessary measures to protect national security and dismissing allegations of dysfunction as unfounded.

"That's not dysfunction, that's success. Colin wasn't part of any of it, but I wish him all the best." (85:01)

Conclusion and Insights

Colin Carroll's testimony provides a firsthand account of the internal turmoil within the DoD under Pete Hegseth's leadership. His narrative challenges the administration's portrayal of the firings as purely leak-related, suggesting potential motives rooted in internal power struggles and mismanagement. The episode underscores the complexities of maintaining organizational integrity and effective leadership within high-stakes government institutions.

Notable Quotes

• Colin Carroll: "Colin Carroll had his foot on the throat of innovation at the Jake." (07:47)
• Megyn Kelly: "You feel betrayed?" (36:12)
• Colin Carroll: "I felt like this is totally going to backfire here and not end the way that you think it's going to end." (19:04)
• Meghyn Kelly: "You have to be able to build a competent team, trust that team." (15:08)
• Colin Carroll: "We are not deep state, we're not disgruntled former employees." (35:30)

Key Takeaways

1. Denial of Leaks: Colin Carroll and his colleagues firmly deny involvement in leaking sensitive Pentagon information, attributing their firings to unfounded investigations.
2. Leadership Challenges: The strained relationship between Carroll and Joe Casper highlights significant leadership and communication issues within the DoD.
3. Impact on DoD Operations: The firings have led to concerns about the DoD's ability to effectively execute its mission, citing a culture of fear and decreased team cohesion.
4. Public Perception and Media Involvement: The involvement of media outlets like Politico and Fox & Friends has amplified the controversy, with conflicting narratives from involved parties.
5. Future Implications: Carroll expresses uncertainty about his future role in the DoD but remains hopeful for exoneration and potential reinstatement.

Final Thoughts

This episode sheds light on the intricate interplay between governmental agency operations, internal politics, and media narratives. Carroll's perspective offers valuable insights into the potential vulnerabilities and challenges faced by high-level defense officials in maintaining operational integrity and public trust.

Transcript

[Colin Carroll]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[Colin Carroll]

For having me, Megan.

[Megyn Kelly]

And thanks for your service.

[Colin Carroll]

Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

What branch of the military did you serve in?

[Colin Carroll]

I am still in the Marine Corps Reserve.

[Megyn Kelly]

Still in?

[Colin Carroll]

I was active duty for a while.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, and you, you were deployed?

[Colin Carroll]

I was deployed, yes ma'am.

[Megyn Kelly]

Afghanistan.

[Colin Carroll]

Afghanistan, three times. Wow.

[Megyn Kelly]

Thank you. I appreciate it. So you wound up working in the Pentagon?

[Colin Carroll]

How so? I graduated from the Naval Academy, Aerospace engineer, went in the Marine Corps. Did my time as an active duty intelligence officer. Weirdly not doing a lot of intel things, but mostly in the force reconnaissance community. Deployed a bunch of times. I left the Marine Corps. I continued to serve as a duty civilian for a while doing some other jobs and then I left the DOD to go work for Project Maven as a. As a Marine Corps Reserve Officer. So in the Office of secretary of defense, 2017 and 2019. It's an AI program. From there I went to Johns Hopkins, I went out to industry, and then I left. I was at Anduril Industries. I left Andrew right before the. The administration started here and I joined to be the Deputy's Chief of Staff.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so where is Steven Feinberg in relation to Pete?

[Colin Carroll]

He works directly for Pete and he is the Deputy Deputy Secretary of Defense. So the normal way things work, the Secretary is kind of up and out, up being towards the White House, out being towards, you know, the combat commands, our allies and partners, and then the deputies down and in, so running the day to day operations of the department.

[Megyn Kelly]

And so you were his Chief of Staff. And who was Pete's Chief of Staff?

[Colin Carroll]

Pete's Chief of Staff was Joe Casper until I think earlier this week.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's going to. We're going to hear that name a lot. So you two were sort of parallel. In parallel positions. He was for the top guy and you were for the number two guy.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

And how does Dan Caldwell fit in? The one who went on Tucker?

[Colin Carroll]

So Dan is a close friend of Pete, or probably was until about a week ago. Dan. I met Dan in November during the transition. Dan was kind of the guy in the back of the room when Pete interviewed me back in November. And he was with the Secretary all the way through transition confirmation. He joined as a senior advisor doing policy ops work in the Secretary's front office. He and the Secretary go way back to probably a decade plus ago, doing Veterans work and things like that from the past.

[Megyn Kelly]

How about Darren? What's Darren?

[Colin Carroll]

Darren also is an old friend of the secretary. Worked together for probably a decade plus again in the, in the veterans community doing veterans work. He is an advisor to the secretary. Was an advisor to the secretary until last week for really like workforce personnel things. And then he became the deputies. Sorry, he became the Deputy Chief of Staff to the secretary maybe a month and a half ago.

[Megyn Kelly]

So one under Joe Casper.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so you knew all these guys while you were working at dod for the past.

[Colin Carroll]

I worked with them closely every day.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. And, and you know, you were brought into the Trump administration. You hadn't been at DOD until Trump won.

[Colin Carroll]

I was not part of Trump one actually, no, I was just a regular.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, until Trump. W O n. Sorry, Trump won in November.

[Colin Carroll]

That's correct. I joined this time around. Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, so just personally tell us a little bit about yourself. How old are you? You married? Kids?

[Colin Carroll]

40. Married. I have a wonderful baby boy. He's nine months old. My wife's pregnant, so we're having a second one here in the later this year.

[Megyn Kelly]

God love her.

[Colin Carroll]

And she's probably going to kill me for saying that on, on TV, but I just did it. I live in outside D.C. and I really, really wanted to go back to the Department of defense. In 2021, I was fired by the previous Deputy Secretary of Defense, which is now I have the honor of having been fired by a Deputy Secretary and a Secretary of Defense, you know, in a five year period. Yeah, I really, really wanted to go back. And I can, I can talk about why, but sure, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why'd you get fired first time?

[Colin Carroll]

Well, first time I got fired, I worked at an organization called the Joint AI center, the Jake. I was the Chief Operations Officer, so I was responsible to make the organization function. My job was to cut programs. I, I got there, they had a lot of bloat. My job was to reduce it to, from 30 things to maybe five to eight things.

[Megyn Kelly]

You were Doge before Doge was cool.

[Colin Carroll]

I was Doge for Doge was cool. And as a part of that, you know, I did not make friends. In some places you take people's money away, but in that era in the department, you couldn't get rid of people. So there were just lots of unhappy people that didn't have any money to spend on their programs. And they, they, you know, complained to the IG about me. There was a morale survey. The morale was very low. The quote that I love the best is Colin Carroll had his foot on the throat of innovation at the Jake, which is really funny. Anyone that actually knows me knows that I'm a pretty innovative person and I'm very supportive of innovation, but that was enough to get me tossed. And I'll be honest, you know, I'm a Marine, I'm a direct person. I can be abrasive. I'm sure that I didn't handle every situation back then entirely well. So, you know, no harm. No harm feelings.

[Megyn Kelly]

Live and learn. Well, no one's alleging that you needed to get fired this time because you were abrasive towards staff, et cetera. You've been accused of something far more serious, as you know. Okay, so you get back into the Pentagon and you're working as the Chief of Staff for Pete's right hand man, his deputy, and you're dealing with all this cast of characters that I mentioned. And at least Darren and Dan are both close to Pete. But you didn't know Pete.

[Colin Carroll]

No. So if you think I volunteered to go back and then I volunteered to be the Deputy Chief of Staff, I was supposed to do a different role. I volunteered to come in in the very beginning and, and kind of set the foundation for him to join and then get him going. And then he asked me to stay, so I said, I will stay for a couple of years.

[Megyn Kelly]

You meaning Pete or Steve Feinberg?

[Colin Carroll]

Steve Feinberg. Okay. The other guys were actually called by the secretary and said, hey, please come join me in the administration. I cannot be successful without you. So different, different story. They upended their lives to come as well. But I volunteered. I was not a phone call saying, colin, we really need you to come. I just really wanted to come back.

[Megyn Kelly]

And let's just set the stage on ideology. I listened to Dan Caldwell on Tucker. He's, I think, very much aligned with Tucker's view of foreign policy. More dovish, less hawkish, very anti neocon.

[Colin Carroll]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Both having come to that organically over the years. But Dan actually fought as a soldier and so has a personally very committed view towards it. And you're in that camp yourself or no?

[Colin Carroll]

Well, I can tell you, having been in a war for something like two and a half years of my life total, I am not a fan of going to places that I think we. We have no real policy objective. And then our military officers are not really understanding, like the strategy to win. We don't even know what winning is. But I'm not a policy person, quite frankly. I was brought in to buy the right thing at the right cost, which is A completely different problem that the department has. And that is a really intangible problem that we're trying to fix, or intractable problem, I should say. That's me. I think Darren was brought in very much on the workforce side and the military health side to try and rectify some of the problems there. And Dan is a policy ops person. So his. His role was EUCOM policy, so Europe and CENTCOM policy. So, you know, the Middle east. That's what he focused on.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, that Dan alleged that he's not a leaker, he leaked nothing. And that it's possible he was fired for his ideology, in particular his position that we should not be getting into a war with Iran. What do you think of that?

[Colin Carroll]

I think I watched that. I think that maybe Tucker was kind of had an angle there. And honestly, when we were fired, I don't think none of us knew exactly what was going on. So when he filmed that, I think it was still very nebulous as to why we were fired.

[Megyn Kelly]

You and I are going to be on Friday. It's been a week since you're firing.

[Colin Carroll]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

He interviewed with Tucker. It came out, I think, Monday morning, so.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct. So he probably interviewed over the weekend.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Colin Carroll]

I think that since then we've learned a lot more. And that's from, you know, friends in the White House, friends in the building, the Air Force OSI investigators. I talked to the media blitz of people that have called us saying, hey, here's what the White House or sir, here's what the Department of Defense is leaking about you right now. Can you comment on it? And so I think we have a better. And then honestly, Joe Casper did a on the record interview with Dropsite.

[Megyn Kelly]

Joe Casper, just for the record, again, is the chief of staff to Pete Hegseth or was up until a couple of days ago.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And has been moved out of that position in this same time period and has been sort of. I don't know if we'd call it a demotion, but he was a staffer and has been changed into a special government employee, which is different and less scrutinized position.

[Colin Carroll]

The way to look at this is you have political appointees, I. E. People that were vetted by the White House and were appointed. Some of them are Senate confirmed. Others are like me. I was just a political appointee. Joe was a political appointee as well. He is no longer a political appointee. So he is no longer a part of the Trump administration. He is a basically a part time employee like Elon. He's Got the same role, same, same exact, you know, hiring mechanism. I'm not sure if it's exactly the same thing, because sometimes you can be part time, sometimes you could be full time for a certain period of time. Elon was like, full time for a certain period of time. I'm not 100 sure what.

[Megyn Kelly]

Joe, why would they move somebody who's a political appointee over to the position of special government employee?

[Colin Carroll]

My understanding that there was a meeting in the White House last week, maybe Thursday or Friday morning, that was kind of a, hey, how do we do damage control on the, you know, own goal that we created here. And out of that meeting, there were two kind of outcomes. One was what to do with Joe, and one was what to do with the three of us. And, you know, this is from people I've talked to that we're not in the meeting, but got the debrief. After the meeting, the secretary was told, basically, Joe needs to move out of the role. Chief of staff. I'm not sure it was related to the investigation, the actions of last week or if it was just Joe was not the best chief of staff, and they were kind of frustrated with him. We can talk about why. But he was basically told, move him and kind of do it in a quiet way. And. And, you know, and then that turned into. That wasn't that quiet because somebody leaked it out of the White House or wherever, and then it was in the press, that same meeting, you know, they looked at what to do with the three of us. And my understanding is there were some parts of the White House that were very supportive of retaining us and bringing us back. And then, you know, there was some evidence that was.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's doing air quotes for the listening audience.

[Colin Carroll]

There's some evidence of. That was told that may or may not exist. And because people said, hey, there's evidence here. And. And I was also told that someone said that we failed polygraphs. The presidential personnel office decided get rid.

[Megyn Kelly]

Of them on leaking.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. All right, so let's. Let's go back now and set that up. So you're. You're running along. Things are going, I guess, okay. But before this whole dust up started, which really started the beginning of April, I. I think, like, you get this phone call from this political reporter, but prior to that April 2 phone call, how is the office operating?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I mean, you have to understand the dynamic between the secretary's office and the deputy's office and like a what I'll call traditional administration, which I don't think is always the right answer, but traditionally how it is is the secretary's chief of staff and the Deputy Chief of staff have a very close relationship, talk to each other 10, 20 times a day, and are ensuring that what the, what the President wants from the White House is what the secretary's vision is. And then the deputies, you know, delivering those results. The key thing there being taking words and memos and then making them reality. I was brought in because quite frankly, like, the one thing I'm really good at is making shit happen. That's what people pay me to do. And I'm very, very good at it. I'm not the best chief of staff. I'm learning too, but I know how to take words and build a team and make it, make it reality. The secretary's office really struggled with the word team, both internally and then with the deputy's office and then with the rest of the building. That was my observation.

[Megyn Kelly]

How so?

[Colin Carroll]

Well, you know, you said at the beginning here that people are kind of. This is a story about personalities and people. Like, that's actually 100% accurate. Like most things in life, it's a story about personalities and people. I'm a firm believer in the fact that you need to be able to build a competent team, trust that team. You can have arguments with that team, but then you can go out and grab a beer afterwards and everybody's kind of able to have a relationship, no matter how tense it gets in the office. And this is a super stressful environment. Right. You've got something like 200 executive orders in 45 days. We're all running as fast as we can. There's a lot of pressure coming from the White House. There's also just the daily operational stuff that's happening, and then there's the constant continuous rhythm of things that happen that need to happen to make the department run. Joe was a very non traditional chief of staff and he may have been brought in to be that. Maybe nobody knew he was going to be that. I don't know. I didn't make the decision. But working with him was very difficult. And I think there's out there in the press, it's, you know, the White House, other people in the department, it's not just me. I really struggled to get a relationship with a guy. I tried really hard, but I couldn't do it. He didn't want to talk to me, didn't want to include us in meetings. I don't know if that's his personality, if there's something from his past history that Said like this is how to do it. But you can't run a 3 million person organization by kind of like having a cabal of five people and making decisions. It's like shotgunning memos out. That's not how, that's not how change actually happens. And so I don't think that we ever, we struggled as an administration to really put a functioning team together because.

[Megyn Kelly]

You need to be in communication with your counterpart over in the secretary's office. And that man was not receptive to dealing with you very well.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. And you know, you can say, hey guys, all thing that said something like packages. So if you people that have listened here and have been in the department understand that a package is basically like a decision paper that's coming from somewhere in the department that has to get staffed and coordinated. It's typically a really long process. It's arduous. The last administration was non functional because they couldn't make decisions because they really wanted consensus before package came for decision. Well, the department's like not a, you know, there's 300 organizations. You're never going to get all them to have consensus. But you still need at least some level of process to coordinate things and get them through and get them signed by the secretary. We just really struggle with that process. It was, it was people running in and out directly to the secretary, hey, do this, you know, people finding out about it weeks later or days later and going like, how the hell did that even get signed? Like, I don't think the lawyers looked at that like that type of stuff. I'm all about moving fast and breaking things. And people that know me know I move fast and break things. But I also try to do it in a way that protects my leadership and sets us up to actually execute the thing that we're trying to do.

[Megyn Kelly]

So it's hard to do if you're not even in on what's happening behind closed doors in the secretary's office.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

Can't really execute on it.

[Colin Carroll]

I used to, I mean, yeah, a little bit of a black hole up there, but my way around that was to talk to people like Daniel and then Darren when he became the deputy chief or the deputy chief of staff. And I actually thought up until a week ago that we kind of worked a process by which we could function. I don't say like around Joe Casper, but just with Joe the way that he was.

[Megyn Kelly]

Because those two are on the other side. They're more on Pete's side and you're on the deputy side where you're kind of the worker horse, the workhorse.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

So if you could get Dan and Darren talking to you, it was a meaningful end around Joe. If you couldn't get Joe's attention.

[Colin Carroll]

Right. And honestly, Darren's role as Deputy Chief of Staff was to kind of be the chief of staff.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Colin Carroll]

That was it.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, so that was working. And you were all in alignment with Pete. Right. I mean, it was like, let's just settle that. Is there. Was there a divide between you three guys and Pete in any way?

[Colin Carroll]

No. The only thing I would say, maybe in the secretary's office, that there was a divide about was whether Joe's fit to serve in that role.

[Megyn Kelly]

Nobody ever had one opinion.

[Colin Carroll]

And Pete, nobody ever asked me, but if they had asked me, I would have said, yeah, I don't think so. It's not working.

[Megyn Kelly]

So unfit. How. How so?

[Colin Carroll]

From my observation, just not responsive sometimes. Not there. Not. Not always giving the best advice to the secretary on, like, how to do things. I think, for example, had they wanted to just get rid of us, they could have said, hey, the advice here is, Colin, Darren and Dan aren't aligned anymore. They're an obstacle. Whatever the case is, let's just terminate them for cause. Because we serve at the pleasure of the President and the secretary, you can literally just get rid of us. But what they did instead was they tied us to a leak investigation. There is a real leak investigation. We can talk about that to the extent I'm allowed to share, but there is one. They tied us to that when there's absolutely no evidence and it made no sense. And then they basically publicly executed us. And I'm not 100% sure what the reasoning was, but that, you know, any. I look at that, as soon as it was happening, I kind of realized what was happening. And all I could think was, this is totally going to backfire here and not end the way that you think it's going to end. But for whatever reason, the advice that the secretary was getting from Joe and some of the other people there was, yeah, this is going to be great.

[Megyn Kelly]

To get rid of you three.

[Colin Carroll]

And just the way that they did it. Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what happened? Let's just back up because. All right, so you're going along, it's not perfectly smooth and you've got some problems with Joe. And I can see from some of the comments he's made. For example, to journalist Ryan Grimm, he's not your fan either. But then on April 2nd, you get a call. April 3rd. Sorry, you get a call from A reporter at Politico named Lippman. Right. Last name Lippman. And this is where things start to go sideways and get us to this point where everybody's fired. So this guy.

[Colin Carroll]

That's accurate. Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

This guy calls you and you didn't like this guy because two weeks earlier he'd done a hit piece on you about your firing, Your earlier firing at DOD that we just went through.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

So no one wants to see that written about in Politico.

[Colin Carroll]

It wasn't very nice.

[Megyn Kelly]

Politico never is. So not towards Republicans or Republican administration. So this guy calls you and what do you say? His phone's in your. His number's in your phone. Because you dealt with him on the record.

[Colin Carroll]

I was able to give him a comment via my public affairs office.

[Megyn Kelly]

It was all known at the Pentagon dealing with him when they were doing the hit piece on you was not forbidden. Like they knew, you know, I mean.

[Colin Carroll]

It was the deputy's office. We dealt with it, and I gave him a comment and he wrote his piece.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. But it wasn't a mystery to anybody at the Pentagon that Colin's getting hit by Politico and we're going to allow him to make one statement to them?

[Colin Carroll]

I don't think it was a mystery. No.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. So that happened. And then his number was in your phone because they connected you with him.

[Colin Carroll]

I called him to give him a comment. I think I texted him a comment just to make sure that. Because my comment, if I said something on the. Over the phone, probably would have been vulgar and not very good. So I wrote it and texted it to him.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, very good.

[Colin Carroll]

But, yeah, he called. I picked up the phone, and I literally. I was driving out of the parking lot of the Pentagon, and I said, hey, are you calling to apologize? To which he said, no. And then he just basically asked me, hey, have you heard anything about an investigation into Joe? And I said, no.

[Megyn Kelly]

An investigation into Joe Casper.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

The chief of staffer Ptac's father.

[Colin Carroll]

Okay.

[Megyn Kelly]

And had you.

[Colin Carroll]

I'd not. No.

[Megyn Kelly]

That was the first you heard about any. Any investigation into Pete, correct Or. Sorry. Into Joe, not Pete.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. It will later be alleged that you orchestrated that phone call from Dan Lippman.

[Colin Carroll]

I read that in Ryan's piece.

[Megyn Kelly]

And Joe is claiming this.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, that's what Joe said. I've read that.

[Megyn Kelly]

That you. You wanted an IG investigation of him or had started an IG investigation of him and somehow manipulated Dan Lippman at Politico to call you. Now I'm doing The air quotes where. Whereas really, you were the one who had first reached out because you wanted to see in Politico that there was an investigation into Joe.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. From what Ryan told me, because I. I went on the record for Ryan as well, and he kind of walked me through this when he called it, like, the most batshit crazy interview he's ever done with Joe Cassidy. With Joe is that Joe had about six stories for how this occurred, ranging from there was never a call ranging from Colin called the reporter. Colin meant to email the reporter, but accidentally emailed the Public affairs office.

[Megyn Kelly]

That is reflected in Ryan's report. It's clear Ryan thinks Joe's all over the board on. On suggesting how this.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. And so I'm not 100 sure why. Like, the facts are. The guy called me. I texted Dan when I got home after dinner and said, what do you want me to do? I got this call, texted Dan Caldwell. Yep. He said, send a note to Sean Parnell, who was in the Public affairs office, which is exactly what I did.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's basically a spokesperson for the pentag Repeat, Correct? Yeah. Okay. We know Sean.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, so. And you did that because we have an email from you to Sean saying, hey, I got this call from this guy.

[Colin Carroll]

Yes.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you. But you maintain.

[Colin Carroll]

And I talked to Sean the next day. He called me. I think it was a Friday afternoon. I was out in the field throwing a ball to my dog. He called me, and I told him the same thing.

[Megyn Kelly]

That you'd gotten this call.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

And that you didn't. You didn't. Did you speak with Dan Lippin on anything of substance?

[Colin Carroll]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so what did you tell him?

[Colin Carroll]

I said, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't know anything about an IG investigation. Okay. And the comm shop basically said, don't have further communication with him.

[Colin Carroll]

No. No one. No one said anything to me. Honestly. Sean was just like, this is crazy. I don't know anything about it. And that was it. I mean.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, yeah. So this is early April. Have. Have any leak investigations happened yet? Have the leaks. I don't have it in my mind. When the leak was on the Panama Canal, on the Elon, briefing at the Pentagon had. Had it started already. The LE definitely started the leaks that started. But did you know anything about an IG investigation into who the leakers were at that point?

[Colin Carroll]

No. Let me walk you through the investigation real quick, because it is kind of confusing. So there were leaks. There were probably four or five that the secretary cared about. And said, go investigate. These are in, like, the February, maybe March time frame. The ones that are out in the press are the Panama and then Elon visit. And then I think they're. They mentioned another one about maybe seizing or stopping or starting Ukraine aid. I forget which it was.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I just, I have just a little timeline here. On March 5th, POLITICO with a story on we stopped intelligence sharing with Ukraine. On March 13, NBC News went with the big one, which was Trump White House has asked the military to develop options for the Panama Canal. March 20, the New York Times with a story the Pentagon set up a briefing for Elon Musk on potential war with China. That one was said to have infuriated Trump, who saw that it would be inappropriate to brief Elon at the Pentagon on anything happening with China given his business interests there. March 21, Politico ran a story entitled Trump sends second aircraft carrier to the Middle east and ramp up against the Houthis. And then we had the signal debacle with Jeffrey Goldberg that hit the press and that dominated the media for quite some time. Then on March 28, Wall Street Journal ran a story, Hegseth brought his wife to sensitive meetings with a foreign military official. And here we are on April 3, where acting Pentagon Inspector General Stephen Stebbins said he was opening an investigation into the Signal gate story. And shortly thereafter, April 15th, the three of you. April 15th and 16th, the three of you were placed on leave. So, okay, so when we're back at early April and you get this call from Politico, we'd had leaking, but we hadn't yet had an announcement of investigation into leaking.

[Colin Carroll]

It might not have been announced, but there is definitely an investigation going. We talked about it internally and walked through. Hey, what's the best way to do this? I don't exactly remember when Joe signed the memo saying, hey, we're chartering an investigation, but there was an investigation.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so he was the one initially to get the IG on the case.

[Colin Carroll]

It's actually not the ig.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, it's not?

[Colin Carroll]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, it's the Air Force.

[Colin Carroll]

They went with the Air Force Office of Special Investigation, I think Air Force osi, which is, you know, the Air Force has Air Force osi, Navy has ncis, the army has army cid. These are like the criminal investigative units of the services. The Air Force was assigned to do this one.

[Megyn Kelly]

It could have been anybody, but it was the Air Force.

[Colin Carroll]

I think it probably could have been anybody, but maybe there's. Maybe the Air Force is like the executive agent to support officer, Secretary of Defense. I'm not sure.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Colin Carroll]

But they started their investigation, and they've been doing an investigation in two leaks. I. I talked to them. I can. So we were put on leave, and we were then terminated. So I was put on leave on a Wednesday, terminated on a Friday. The other guys were Tuesday. Air Force osi, by the way, is doing its investigation. None of us talk to Air Force osi. I can walk you through how I was, like, escorted out. But it was. It was very funny. I mean, there are these two older gentlemen. One guy had been in the Pentagon for 47 years. They came from Washington headquarters services, like, administrative security. And, you know, the dude was, like, a national hero. He. He was. He had a cane because he burned his legs with jet fuel on 911 trying to, like, save some other airmen's lives when he was, like, an E7 in the air Force. And the other gentleman had a cane, too. So it was the slowest perp walk of all time. I, like, walked down to this guy's, you know, room in the basement, and they, like, walked me out after, you know, talking to me for 30 minutes. Super nice. Don't fault them at all. They just read me out of my clearances and then said, you know, like, what's going on? And I actually. What do you think I think is going on? We had a conversation, but were they.

[Megyn Kelly]

The ones who told you you were fired?

[Colin Carroll]

They did, yeah. Well, they told me I was put on leave, actually. They didn't really know what status I was in. They're like, we're not sure. We're trying to find out, but basically, get out. You got to get out here.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, okay.

[Colin Carroll]

And so I spent the next five days messaging people in the department to say, please send Air Force OSI to talk to me. And over on. On Easter Sunday, I got. Somebody called me and said, hey, a friend of mine called, said, Air Force OSI will reach out to you. I've been bugging people, like, literally every two hours. They called. They came into my house on Monday. They made me sign an NDA, which I think is a little strange, but. So I'm not going to talk about the details of their investigation. I did talk to the agent. He told me that I could defend myself if accused, and, you know, kind of talk about the generality. So I'll tell you this now. What they told me is that they were not involved. The actual people doing investigations were not involved with any of what they termed the HR actions of the previous week. So they've Been investigating leaks and they have leads, in my opinion, having talked to them. But they were not involved in the three of us being put on leave or fired.

[Megyn Kelly]

It wasn't their decision.

[Colin Carroll]

No, it wasn't our decision. They weren't even looking at us. They got told after that, like, hey, go. And my one question then was, I. I was told by people that I know in the White House that the secretary said that he had evidence. And I wanted to know, like, what is that evidence? And they said we had not been handed any evidence to start now. They didn't read me my rights. It was a super informal conversation. I. I offered them to take a polygraph. I offered them to take my phone. I told them I did not leak anything. I did not leak anything classified or unclassified to the media. I've not had a single conversation with the media that wasn't on the record, sanctioned by Public affairs since I started at the department.

[Megyn Kelly]

No texting, no emailing, no communications at all.

[Colin Carroll]

Nothing. I've had people email me and I just send them to the press. My other guy at deputy's office, who was like the Public affairs guy, that's it.

[Megyn Kelly]

Have you been told by Dan Caldwell or Darren that they leaked?

[Colin Carroll]

I've been told that neither leaked. And honestly, I don't know them super well, but I can tell you that Darren. Darren's job was workforce and culture. Darren did not sit in any of the, like, the things that you just read off there on the. On from the news, like Panama attack plans. Darren didn't sit in any of those meetings. Darren probably doesn't even know what the hell's going on there. And so I can assure you that Darren did not leak any of those things. I truly believe that.

[Megyn Kelly]

But Dan would have had access to those.

[Colin Carroll]

Dan would have access to every one of those things, or, you know, maybe half of them. He would have had access. I know Dan now and I work with him pretty closely. I do not think that Dan leaked either. And I heard him say it on Tucker, that he did not leak any classified information related to any of this stuff. And I believe him.

[Megyn Kelly]

He never told you that he leaked?

[Colin Carroll]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

He denied to you that he leaked?

[Colin Carroll]

Well, so, yeah, he denied to me exactly. But what happened was I was on the way back from the White House, I was at a meeting, and I was with the cio and somebody texted me a tweet that said Como was escorted out. And so my first thought was, well, at first I was like, maybe he leaked something. Honestly. And I got back to the Office. And I was. And people were kind of like, yeah, it was a talk of the office, but there wasn't really any information. I went to a play with my wife. I think I told you yesterday, I went to a play, Annie. And in the middle of the play, I got a message from someone is. Or maybe someone sent me a link. I don't even know. It was Darren. Darren is now escort out. So it immediately got really suspicious at that point. It's like, this doesn't make sense. I didn't think Dan would leak, but I know Darren didn't leak. And then I got messages from friends of mine on the Senate Armed Services Committee towards the end of the play that said, hey, a reporter called us and said that you're the next person on the list. And so I'm showing my wife, and my wife's like, hey, do you want to stay? I'm like, no, the sun's going to come out tomorrow. We're finishing this play. Right. And so I get home, I called Darren and Darren said, hey, this is kind of what happened to me. The two guys with canes came and they were super nice about it. And he's like, I heard your next. So, yeah, I just heard the same thing. I messaged my boss and said, hey, I heard I'm next from the Senate Armed Services Committee. Heard from reporter. And he. He kind of was like, nah, it's not true. And then of course, the next day I go in. So I was kind of prepared for it. I wasn't shocked or frustrated. I just, you know, I was as nice as I could be to these guys. I gave one of them a ride.

[Megyn Kelly]

Because one of the cane.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, he had to wielding. He had to go like all the way down to the gate, and I didn't want him to have to walk all the way back, so I gave him a ride around the Pentagon and dropped.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you left the building having no idea why you got fired.

[Colin Carroll]

No, I knew I didn't leak anything, so I knew it wasn't that.

[Megyn Kelly]

And to this day, has anybody told you why you got fired?

[Colin Carroll]

The only. The best thing I know is what Joe told the reporter, which is we were fired because he thinks that we.

[Megyn Kelly]

Create back to Joe Casper, the chief of staff.

[Colin Carroll]

He literally said, this is why they were fired. So that's the best I've got.

[Megyn Kelly]

Suggesting that you were the leakers.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Colin Carroll]

On an ig into him where I can show for sure that we did not leak that. I mean, I talked to Dan and Dan wasn't like, oh yeah, that ig like he didn't know what I was talking about.

[Megyn Kelly]

Sorry, just to clear that up, Joe Casper says you guys leaked or suggested that he was the subject of an IG investigation. We're not. He didn't say that you were the Panama leaker or that you were the Elon leaker?

[Colin Carroll]

No, he didn't say that. No.

[Megyn Kelly]

But Pete seems to have suggested it. Right. Because Pete went on Fox and Friends. Forgive me for just calling him Pete every time. You know, he's a long time secretary.

[Colin Carroll]

Hanks up to me. But to other people, I mean no disrespect.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Colin Carroll]

Dan and Darren, he's Pete.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Colin Carroll]

Myself and Deputy Feinberg, he's the secretary of Secretary Hagstaff, but he's Pete. And so yeah, the reason I'm here today, quite frankly is because I feel wrongly accused. I know for certain I did not leak anything. I know for certain I didn't do anything else that's criminal either. And after his interview on Fox and Friends this week, I felt like one. I'm being told I can't talk about my investigation. But he is directing the investigation and on national television basically saying, everyone, we're a criminal or maybe not. Maybe we're going to be exonerated. I don't know. It was kind of a bit of a. It's hard to interpret what was going on. Yeah. I'm here because I want the American public to know the truth. I think that your viewers, you've got a lot of viewers and I think this is a good medium to do that. And I think from the truth I will be able to show that I am innocent and hopefully be publicly exonerated, which I really am looking for. And I'm also hoping that we all learn some lessons from this because we've got another three and a half years here and potentially more. And there are some how to build a team and people type lessons that we need to learn. And if the secretary is going to be successful going forward, if he's not going to be the secretary and there's going to be somebody else, like we need to learn how to build a team to accomplish the President's agenda. The three of us are not deep state, we're not disgruntled former employees. Like two of these people are very good friends with the secretary. And I'm just a person that literally upended my entire life to come back into the department, gave up a great job, gave up seeing my 8 month old kid during daylight hours 7 days a week. To actually try and deliver what the President wants. And so, yeah, I'm here to kind of get that message out.

[Megyn Kelly]

You feel betrayed?

[Colin Carroll]

I don't feel betrayed, no. I think Dan and Darren definitely do. I'm not. I wasn't that close to the secretary, so I don't feel betrayed, no. I feel frustrated, but not betrayed.

[Megyn Kelly]

When you saw Pico on Fox and Friends and, you know, kind of made it clear what he thinks happened. Here's. I'm gonna play just a little bit so people. People know how he sounded. Cause we were. He was talking about the terrible press that he's been hit with since you guys got fired. And here it is in Sat 34.

[C]

What a big surprise that a bunch of. A few leakers get fired and suddenly a bunch of hit pieces come out. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. Not going to work with me because we're changing the Defense Department. Putting the Pentagon back in the hands of war fighters. And anonymous smears from disgruntled former employees on old news. Doesn't matter.

[Megyn Kelly]

So that was on Monday at the White House, at the Easter Egg Roll. And then he doubled down and went further on Fox and Friends the next day, which I'll play, but. Are you disgruntled?

[Colin Carroll]

No, I'm not disgruntled. I actually want to go back. I very much want to go back and work with Steve. It's been an awesome 90 days. I think that we have a great next three and a half years in front of us to deliver what the President wants. You know, I'm the type of person, if you ask people that know me, I'm very confident in my own abilities to solve problems if I am part of the solution. And I really want to go back. I don't know if they'll take me. I know there's a path back or not, but that's what I want.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I mean, he did seem to suggest, you know, this could come out a different way. Like maybe they did it or maybe it was someone else. So there seems to be a window there on, like, who actually did the leaking. Here he is on Fox and friends on Tuesday, Sat 32.

[C]

A series of serious leaks at the Pentagon, which there were Panama Canal plans, Elon Musk's visit, you name it, any number of things. And there's four, five, six, seven things. We said, enough is enough. We're going to launch a leak investigation, which we did, which was then handed over to osi, which is the special investigators here at dod. If one or two of these guys is exonerated after an investigation, great. That's what investigations are for. But we took it seriously. It led to some unfortunate places, people I have known for quite some time. But it's not my job to protect them. It's my job to protect national security. The President of the United States.

[Megyn Kelly]

What's your response to that?

[Colin Carroll]

I think that there are leakers, and I think that there is a leak investigation. I do not think that leak investigation involved us until after we were terminated. I think that if there's a path to be exonerated, we should have been placed on administrative leave and investigated. And I would have been totally comfortable with that. And I would have talked to OSI and done all the things I said I would do. I think the others would as well.

[Megyn Kelly]

So why would they have pinned it on you and your two buddies that we've been mentioning if you guys didn't do it?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I, I don't think that, that anybody actually pinned anything on us. I think that we are. The easiest way to get rid of us was to say, hey, it's part of this leak investigation. I actually think that Joe probably believes whatever he told Ryan Grimm. Like, he probably thinks that whatever version of email or phone call thing, he thinks that that's what happened.

[Megyn Kelly]

I have to try to get him in trouble.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I have to believe that he actually thinks that now. Maybe he just hasn't looked at like the logical sequence of events. And this is my problem is just call us in and ask us. And we could have said, literally, here's my email.

[Megyn Kelly]

That would explain you, but not Darren and Dan.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. So what's not public is Darren got a text message from Daniel Whitman right before this all happened. He got a text from Daniel Lippman. So Daniel, Daniel Lippman texting the whole office. He texted half of my office. Like, he's just persistent. And so Darren got one and went to the secretary on Sunday. So the couple days before he was put on leave, said, hey, I got something to talk to you about. This is one of them. And let's say that, that I'll let Darren talk about it. But that conversation didn't go very well. There's a blow up and Darren thinks that he got flagged that way. And I think Dan was.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's talked to Pete Hexeth about that email.

[Colin Carroll]

You're saying he talked about the text.

[Megyn Kelly]

Message that he got and Pete got angry with him.

[Colin Carroll]

You'll have to let Darren tell a story. But there was a blow up on the phone. Yeah. On Sunday.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I mean, can you help us understand that at all? Why would the secretary be angry at Darren for receiving a text from Politico?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think that that was a super sensitive subject, and I don't 100% know why, but I invite. When other people in our office got the text message, I just said, don't respond to it and don't tell anybody. Just, like, let it die. And Daniel's a persistent guy. What I was told last week is that this is how he operates. He just. He runs political playbook, and he's like, literally blasts everybody and tries to get scoops, and then he tries to confirm things, and he just runs with stories. So it doesn't surprise me he was doing it that way.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is there any fairness to the accusation that you guys didn't like this guy Joe Casper? This is an opportunity. Politico sniffing around him. They're saying there might be this investigation. Whether there is, isn't. This is our chance to bring it to Pete and be like, the guy's a problem.

[Colin Carroll]

Well, I mean, the reporter had a scoop. It wasn't us that gave him the scoop, in my opinion. I can tell you that the other two have talked to the secretary directly about Joe months before this. The White House has talked to the secretary about Joe before this. I have not. I didn't have that kind of relationship. But we've all talked internally in the. In the deputy's office about, hey, how do we work this? How do we work with this person? So I don't think it was a secret here. Now, whatever the IG was about, like, I don't actually know the details of that, but I've read about it in the press. I read what Joe said on the record.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, do we believe there is or was an ig?

[Colin Carroll]

Actually, I mean, I think Joe confirmed on the record that there was an IG and it was drug use related. It sounds to me like it was an insane IG report and probably was some version of a weaponization of the ig, but I don't know that to be certain.

[Megyn Kelly]

And he. And Joe Casper is denying that he uses drugs. He volunteered to Ryan Grimm to take a drug test for 45 days if Ryan would pay for the tests. But he said there's no way to. I could fake a cause. He passed the drug test. He says. He said that I couldn't fake that, nor do I have a life like this. He Said my life should be so exciting that I'm doing drugs.

[Colin Carroll]

Right. That's everything that he said.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so we do believe that there was some sort of an ig. If it's not an official investigation, it was either ramping up or they were kicking the tires around Joe Casper and it seems clear he was blaming you and also possibly Darren.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct. That's what. From what he said, that is actually the reason I believe that we were put on leave.

[Megyn Kelly]

And how about Daniel? How does Dan get sucked in?

[Colin Carroll]

Dan was cc'd on the email that I sent and Joe thinks that that email was meant to go to a reporter or the reporter was also cc'd. I mean, he had some.

[Megyn Kelly]

Just to be clear, this is. You sent the email after Daniel Lippman of Politico emailed you or texted you.

[Colin Carroll]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

And you sent an email to Sean Parnell, the comms guy.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

At the Pentagon to say, hey, this happened, you know. Yeah, now what? Or let me know.

[Colin Carroll]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

I didn't talk to him.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

And his theory as spouse to Ryan Grimm is that you mistakenly sent that to Sean, even though it is addressed to Sean and it's obviously sent to Sean and it lays out exactly what happened. So I don't totally understand the. You misfired it to Sean.

[Colin Carroll]

I don't know where he got that. He also, there was a version of the story that he told that was that I sent the email prior to IG existing and therefore I knew about it before it existed. Like, I. I have no idea when the IG started. I'm pretty sure that is a very easily verifiable fact that you can ask the IG and then they'll say the date was before April 3rd or 4th, whenever that call was.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you believe his denial on the drugs?

[Colin Carroll]

I will say this. I don't know if Joe uses drugs or not. I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did you ever suspect that?

[Colin Carroll]

No. But I also don't know what drug users look like and how they act. I can say that Joe was super erratic and he would be totally normal in one thing and then totally not normal in another thing within the same 30 minute period, but I have no idea. I've been told by other people like that seems like a mannerism of a substance abuser, but I don't know. And I'm not going to allege that here.

[Megyn Kelly]

And again, he's denying that he uses drugs and is telling Ryan Grimm that he passed a drug test and has not been fired. I mean, he got moved to a different position, but if he had tested positive for drugs, he would have been fired.

[Colin Carroll]

I'm assuming he would have been fired, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so we're not sure. Maybe he's an erratic guy without drugs. That's possible too. But in any event, what you're saying is you feel he blamed you for whatever the IG was doing around him and blamed Darren and saw that Dan Caldwell was cc'd on these emails and might have had something to do with it and may not have had a great relationship with those other two either from the start.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. And my understanding is that Dan, prior to all this happening, had gone to the secretary and basically said, I'm out at the end of the month. I can't work with, with Joe. So, you know, either things were coming.

[Megyn Kelly]

To a head between those two.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, you want to keep me or, or you want to keep Joe. But like, I can't. What he told me was that he said, and this, he told me this before any of this happened. I knew about this a month ago. He had said, basically, I'm trying to do the best I can in this job and I'm, I'm unable to deliver the results that you need with Joe as Chief of staff. And I don't feel like I'm, I'm kind of spinning my wheels. So I think he was going to leave anyway. I don't know if he's gonna fall through on that, but that's what he told me.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so, but the, the, where it gets weird is at some point in this time frame, they handed the investigation over to Tim Parlatore. Right.

[Colin Carroll]

Pete's lawyer. What I've been. That's what I'm told. This was in the press. I actually don't, I'm not a first hand source on it. I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, but the, the, if, if it's true, what we read in the paper is that Tim Parlatore took over the investigation. This is Pete's longtime personal lawyer and also a Pentagon employee and also one of the members of the private Pete signal. Second signal, Gate two, the second signal.

[Colin Carroll]

Tim was in that chat too.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, that the reports are that he was in it, his brother was in it, his wife was in it, and some group of others. But in any event. So if he took it over, that's somebody who doesn't work for Joe Casper, who works for Pete. I mean, now he works for the Pentagon, but I mean, his loyalties are to the secretary. And my understanding is that's the person who made the call, like he was in charge of the investigation at the time.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm not sure he would get fired.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I'm not. I've heard things about who was kind of in the know on the decisions that were made.

[Megyn Kelly]

It wasn't Joe Casper's call.

[Colin Carroll]

It was not Joe's capper's call. No, I agree with that.

[Megyn Kelly]

And.

[Colin Carroll]

And I don't actually know if Tim worked for Joe or the secretary. I mean, everybody works for Joe. I'm pretty sure in that office, all the other senior advisors work for Joe.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. But my understanding is Joe was moved to this special governmental status, and he was not. He's not overseeing Tim.

[Colin Carroll]

Joe. Joe was chief of staff until Friday last week.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. Yeah, but that's what I mean. Well, that's. That's the day you got fired.

[Colin Carroll]

He was. He was still in the role, I believe, when the. When the letter was signed.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. But my understanding is that he didn't run that investigation to the end and that Parlatore took it over. And if that's the case, he must have seen something that disturbed him. Right. About you three guys, one or all.

[Colin Carroll]

I would love to know what it is.

[Megyn Kelly]

You have no idea?

[Colin Carroll]

None. No clue.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, I said this on the air, and I have absolutely nothing against Dan Caldwell. He seems like a great guy. Actually, everybody I've talked to about him says he is. But I did think it was a little weird, just between us. You know, I thought it was strange that he told Tucker he hadn't been pollied and he. No one looked at his cell phone. But I said this on my show. There are a lot of other ways you can catch a leaker. You know, there are so many other electronic trails that you can check, especially in a building like the Pentagon. So how are we ruling out that Dan is a leaker?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, you know, OSI could come in here and give you all the mechanisms that they're using. If you told me, hey, Colin, like, go run an investigation in the leaks. Here are the five or six leaks we care about. I would have started and said, what is a leak? Where the information can be tied directly to, like, a certain document or series of documents. Panama, I think, is the one.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yep.

[Colin Carroll]

And I'm pretty sure more plans. But also around the time that leak happened, it was sometime before, maybe a day or two before, there was a meeting in the Pentagon that the secretary took with Southcom and some others where we talked about the plan. And then the leak happened. And the secretary. Minor thing is he thought that somebody in the room or on the call was involved in the leak based on what he read. Now, I was in that meeting and I read what was in the news and I actually thought, like the news didn't get what we got. They got something else. My gut instinct is that there was some kind of upstream preliminary document that had been created as a part of the process to staff this meeting and build the plan, and somebody leaked that.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what NBC News had was not as advanced as what you guys had gotten to.

[Colin Carroll]

Trust me, they're, you know, I'm not going to say anything that I shouldn't say, but had they had the plan that we got, I think it would have been a more juicy, explosive story. Let's put that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. It would have gone everywhere.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. And so I would have said, okay, let's focus on the people that may have been. Let's find that document so we can actually find what she said. And then what, where, you know, where's the document said those exact things. Then who had that saved on their desktop? Probably secret, maybe top secret document. Who opened it, who printed it, who was editing it, who was emailing it around? And I will like narrowed the pull down to that group of people.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes.

[Colin Carroll]

My guess is that Air Force OSI is probably doing exactly that. I don't know. But these guys are professionals and they're probably looking exactly that. And they may. There may be three or four other leaks where they could narrow it down that way too. I do not think that the secretary, like the deputy's office is not involved in that kind of level of upstream work. Right. We're staffing final products to the deputy secretary's office is staffing final products to the secretary. So I highly doubt that that upstream thing somehow wound its way into the secretary's office. I doubt that. So, I mean, yeah, could. Is it possible? Like, yeah, there's a million ways you could leak things. Most of those ways, you know, if, if you wanted to get information out, you just use your personal phone because FISA doesn't apply because you're not foreign national. And you know, they have to have some kind of probable cost to seize your phone, unless you want to voluntarily give it over to seize your phone and searches, it's a warrant. You have to get a warrant. So that's what I would have done. So I actually think what Dan said is they didn't come to say, look at that, like there wasn't enough protocols at that point. Now your point was, well, it's nascent investigation and what I learned from OSI is like there wasn't even. They weren't even looking at us yet. So time we got fired, society wasn't involved. Now I think they are, and we'll see how it plays out.

[Megyn Kelly]

The Dan said he hadn't given over his phone. He hadn't given over. He hadn't been asked to give his phone, and he hadn't been polygraphed. Do you know whether Dan received a visit from any investigators or from the Pentagon asking for electronics back?

[Colin Carroll]

My understanding is that Air Force OSI has only talked to me because that's. I reached out to them and basically said, please come now. We all had to go turn our electronic. Since, like, I drove back the same day and handed my laptop and my secret phone and all my stuff. I believe that Dan had like a whole safe and stuff at his house. I did not. I was in the middle of renovation, so I never got a safe install, so I didn't have to deal with that. I do think people came and probably took that safe back at some point.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you know whether he did that willingly on the first visit?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they came and he just handed it over, you know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you know whether there's a warrant involved?

[Colin Carroll]

No, there wouldn't be a warrant for that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, there would be if he refused.

[Colin Carroll]

Potentially the handover is safe. I mean, he's no longer a government employee.

[Megyn Kelly]

So I mean, if he's got Pentagon electronics and didn't willingly give them, they'd have to. They'd have to step it up and get some sort of subpoena or search warrant.

[Colin Carroll]

That's correct. Yeah. I don't know if the subpoena, search warrant, they probably just, like, break his door down and take it because it's their property.

[Megyn Kelly]

But that you'd probably know about?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I think so.

[Megyn Kelly]

So have you. Have you talked to him at all about, like, how many times they've come and whether he's voluntarily given overall electronics and so on?

[Colin Carroll]

I just know that they came and took his safe and whatever. What other things he had.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Colin Carroll]

He may have driven his electronics back like I did. I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, those would be interesting questions to have answered because, you know, if there's any sort of a reluctance to give over this one device. Right. This is how investigations go down. Right.

[Colin Carroll]

I agree.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is there anything. Is there any device that you have in your possession that you would give if they want it?

[Colin Carroll]

Not a single one.

[Megyn Kelly]

They would. You wouldn't make them get a warrant. You'd hand it all over?

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

Including your cell phone?

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, that's uncomfortable, right? No one wants anybody looking through their phone. Their cell phone.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Even if you didn't leak anything.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's just, you know, do you worry that if you did that they'd be, like, nitpicking now looking for.

[Colin Carroll]

No, I don't think so.

[Megyn Kelly]

Justifications after the fact?

[Colin Carroll]

I don't think so. I think I'm innocent, and I don't think I violated any other crimes either. So I don't think so.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, that's. That's good. Hopefully. I mean, will they. Do you think they will come get.

[Colin Carroll]

My phone or ask for my phone? Yeah, I mean, I told you guys, like, you know, if you want to polygraph me and get my stuff, set it up. And they said, basically, we'll have to go get permission or something like that. So I haven't heard from in a week.

[Megyn Kelly]

Have you ever heard of something like this where somebody gets fired without getting polygraphed? Like for alleged. Something as serious as leaking top secret documents?

[Colin Carroll]

Honestly, I've never. I don't know. I'm not a investigator, so I'm not sure if polygraphs are involved or not. I can tell you polygraphs aren't the most admissible thing in court from what I've been told. So I'm not 100 sure. But I think it's a good starting point at least to see, hey, is somebody. You know, I've been polygraphed before as a part of my job? Yes, I have. Yeah. And, you know, it's a stressful experience, but, like, they can interpret the results and tell you if you're lying or not.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm pretty sure they've done enough of these. Yeah, they're. There was a report in NBC News earlier this week that Dan Caldwell and Darren Selnick, the other two, had already been exonerated in this investigation. Did you read that?

[Colin Carroll]

I didn't read that. No.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you have any reason to believe that's true?

[Colin Carroll]

I have no idea what's going on, quite frankly, so I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you think there's any chance they're working together and you're gonna be left the fall guy?

[Colin Carroll]

No, I. I don't think there's. There's no conspiracy here. It's not like, hey, we all conspired to do a thing. Like, I. It's not true. Like, we didn't. I worked with Dan and Darren on work stuff where I would call them and say, hey, we need this memo done, or, how do we want the. How do we think the Secretary feels about X thing or for Dan, it's like, dude, I need to get a hold Joe. Can somebody please get him for me? That's it.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you haven't since you got fired. Have the three of you been working together on.

[Colin Carroll]

We have talked, but no, I'd say everyone's kind of doing their own thing. Dan got a lawyer. That's why he's not here today. Darren got a lawyer yesterday, which is also why he decided not to come today. Yeah, I got my dad on a retainer for a buck. He probably would have told me, you're an idiot for doing this, but I mean, you're a lawyer, so you. You know more than I do. But I didn't do anything wrong, so that helps. Yeah, it does.

[Megyn Kelly]

That helps a lot. I mean, I've told a lot of people, like, don't do it if you're guilty. It's really not in your best interest. When I'm advising friends who get asked for interviews and so on. The leaks against Pete that post date, these triple firings have been numerous.

[Colin Carroll]

So the one I saw my. The deputy's office does primarily resourcing, which is like programming and budget and then execution of the budget. So at the program level, like can we build a Virginia class submarine or not on time, at cost or not, that's really what we do. We also facilitate the rest of the department, but that's what we do. I can tell you, having just spent the last 90 days building the 2026 budget, of which there are numerous sensitive things in there that would upset people if they got loose in the world, that none of that got loose. The only thing that I saw was the americom merge of Northcom and Southcom. That was in a news article at some point and that was in a budget document.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, the leak to the New York Times of the second signal chat came post firing. And my understanding is Darren and Dan were both on that chain.

[Colin Carroll]

I read the article. He said he had four people from that chain and he said. The article said there were 13 people in the chain. So two of the four were unemployed. I don't know if John Elliott was in that chain or not. I don't know who the 13.

[Megyn Kelly]

We haven't talked about him, but he's. He worked over in the comm shop too. He's the one. We mentioned him in passing, but he says he left of his own volition. And Pete said they fired him, so he resigned.

[Colin Carroll]

Maybe he was forced to resign. I don't know the details.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's A better term.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Than fired.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. I do think it was a petty move to take what John had put out in the press and said, hey, we parted ways, say, no, we fired him. Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Like that, again, is example of just the staff advising you poorly.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is that how it went down?

[Colin Carroll]

Yes.

[Megyn Kelly]

He put out a generic statement saying, I'm leaving.

[Colin Carroll]

And I think he's put out, like, hey, it was great. I decided to move on.

[Megyn Kelly]

They didn't let him save face.

[Colin Carroll]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. And then he wrote the piece in Politico.

[Colin Carroll]

I think he got upset. Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, that's not really where you go when you're team MAGA to. Right.

[Colin Carroll]

I agree. I don't know why you went to Politico. I've actually never met John Elliott. I passed him the hallway. He's been in a meeting once or twice with me, but I've never actually said. Even said hi to him.

[Megyn Kelly]

So it's just coincidental that he went at the same time you guys went?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, it's coincidental.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's very strange. So do you know if he was on that private signal chain?

[Colin Carroll]

I don't know. I would. I would venture to guess the answer is no, but I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

What did you think of how Pete seemed in his Fox and Friends interview?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I don't think he prepared. And honestly, I think that it was probably a bad move to do that. I understand why his team is advising him to do it. You know, he has an audience of one. It's the sec, it's the President of the United States. And he wanted to appear combative, and he wanted to appear forceful. I'm not sure what message he really got across. Like, I am I leaker? Is it possibly exonerated? You fired me? Like, I honestly don't know. And we've had no official communications from anybody besides the Air Force advisors that came to me because I asked them to come.

[Megyn Kelly]

The Air Force guys?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. None of the other guys have had anything, so I'm not 100 sure. I. And what I think of it, I don't know. Just to me, it's an example of people on the staff that are giving him bad advice. I thought the signal gate response when he deplaned from the plane in Hawaii was a terrible. If you look at who is in the background there, you have Sean Parnell and Joe Casper right in the frame. Then he's out there yelling about how it wasn't war plans, it wasn't classified. All he literally needed to Say was, I'm the Secretary of Defense. I got an email from General Carrillo that was secret and I am an original classification authority. And I declassified portions of it and provided it to the cabinet team because I needed them aware of certain things.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Colin Carroll]

Guess what?

[Megyn Kelly]

On a text thread, somebody else started.

[Colin Carroll]

100% illegal or, sorry, 100% legal. He is an OCA. He can't do exactly that and explain it all away. The problem is that the people that were advising him don't even know what an original classification authority is. They never heard of it. It wasn't something that they could have suggested because the team he has isn't. They're not like people that know what to do.

[Megyn Kelly]

They don't know how to protect him.

[Colin Carroll]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Which could lead to a lot of frustration on his part. Do you. Do you think he's okay? You know, do you think Pete is okay?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I honestly, I don't know. I'm not sure. I have observed a Pete that is one Pete and crushes it in meetings. For example, this is out in the press. They did, like, a little blog post on it, but the House Freedom Caucus came to talk to us about budget. It was a breakfast. They all came. This is super interesting. Their. Their bus hit a hit, like a signpost on the way and shattered some windows. So they were super late, but they all came in. They're super excited to be there. A lot of them have never been in the Pentagon before. These are people that want to spend less. They want a strong national security, they want a strong defense. But they don't want us to have a big budget. They're afraid if we go up, domestic spending goes up and, you know, everything falls apart from their ability to balance. The budget secretary crushed that meeting. I've never seen a meeting like that. There is not a secretary in living memory that could have done as good a job with those guys. He was. It was informal. He was super direct. He was very transparent. And they left. I could tell you, they left. It was like the best trip they've probably ever been on in all year. At the same time, I've seen the secretary in more internal meetings where he is super focused on, like, very, in my opinion, weird details and very agitated and kind of like yelling and just. Nothing's good. So it's like a tale of two Petes. And I'll be honest, I'm not the person to ask about what he was like before and all. Like, I don't know. I'm just telling you what I observed in the 90 days that I was there.

[Megyn Kelly]

Was there like a particular point at which his agitation stepped up?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I think, you know, roughly it was around the time of Signal gate maybe, maybe before when some of these leaks started there, there was a, A, a focus on the leaks. So don't get me wrong like leaking is bad and there are leakers and we should try to catch them. Especially when it comes to classified things. I'm mostly concerned about leaks that lead to like true OPSEC concerns where there are US service members, lives at stake and maybe less of the like policy stuff. But, but if the policy thing sinks, a negotiation or something like that, this is critical that we don't do that and we should find those people. And I don't think that those people are people that the Trump admin brought in on the team. I don't think it's Dan, I don't think it's Darren, I think it's anybody else. That's a political, my personal opinion, we're aligned on the mission, we all want the same thing. He was very focused on the leaks and honestly I think it's kind of like consumed the team a little bit. Like if you looked at a pie chart of, of the Secretary's day at this point, 50% of it's probably leak, investigation, press. Like it's that and like that can't be that is a bad thing for America. It's bad thing for the President's objectives. And then in order to kind of combat an image it's hey, we're going to go do work out with the troops. I'm a troop. As a second lieutenant Marine Corps, I thought that was the fucking coolest thing in the world. The Secretary Defense is out doing push ups with me as a midshipman when he went to Naval Academy, like hell yes, I would have been screaming on the side too. However, I think I've matured a little bit to the point where I realized that while that is important and it's a thing to do and get out there because it helps with recruiting, it just helps like with morale. You know, if you're taking a half day trip to Naval Academy at the same time the budget is due and we really need some support here, like, come on, you gotta weigh priorities. And so I don't know, I mean when you ask these, okay, I don't know, I'm not sure. I wish I could definitely say he's totally fine, but I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's so unfortunate. That whole signal gate thing was, I mean I just don't even think it was Pete's fault. It was like, obviously, Mike Walls's office committed a colossal error.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And those on the chat, I guess, technically, should have known. They shouldn't have been having this discussion on Signal. But it seems to me like they use SIGNAL and that the previous administration had Signal on the computers, and it was like no one was really seeing this as an insecure channel.

[Colin Carroll]

Even though, I'll be honest with you, you go to Ukraine, like, they're fighting off signal.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Colin Carroll]

So it is. Is the rule, hey, don't put sensitive information on Signal. Absolutely, it is. Was the information classified? Like, probably as an intel officer, I'd say my personal opinion is, yeah, it was classified. However, Secretary can just say ID classified it.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, exactly.

[Colin Carroll]

He literally has the authority to do that. By the way, the. The OPSEC concerns from that, like, okay, the bad guys that could hack it, they have radars and kind of know when we're taking off from aircraft carriers and stuff.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right.

[Colin Carroll]

So, like, they already know what we're doing. And the bad guys that don't have the ability to crack it are getting bombs dropped on their head and, like, don't.

[Megyn Kelly]

They don't know they're not cracking Signal.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. So.

[Megyn Kelly]

But it's so unfortunate because it was a successful mission, you know, something to feel proud of. And all the press around it has been about this Signal gate thing, and so much of it on Pete's shoulders, even though he's not the one who add. Who created the chat or who added Jeffrey Goldberg. So I feel for him, and I'm sad to hear it's become such a distraction for him because it'd be great if he could focus on this. I can hear that you feel the same. If he could just focus on the mission.

[Colin Carroll]

Adds a lot of stress that is not needed when you already have a lot of stress on really important things.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. And also we talked about. I gave you the timeline, the audience, the timeline of all the leaks that had preceded that Signal thing. So he's already dealing with somebody internally or maybe multiple somebodies. If you look at the agenda, agenda behind these leaks, who's trying to hurt him.

[Colin Carroll]

My read is that there are. For each one of these leaks that you mentioned, and probably some that aren't even in there, there is a specific person that is doing. It's not one person. It's a person per thing. And they all have some agenda. Elon. The agenda either was someone disagree with Elon coming and getting whatever brief he was going to get. And so they wanted to blow it up. Or it was someone that disagreed, that maybe the White House didn't know about it and wanted to shut it down. Right. But it's one of those two things.

[Megyn Kelly]

Is it somebody who accurately deduced Trump will not like this?

[Colin Carroll]

Potentially.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Because he didn't.

[Colin Carroll]

Potentially. I would put my money more on the former, which is like someone just didn't want this to happen. Excuse me. And then wanted to blow it all up.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Because just to be clear, it's not all Pete loyalists surrounding him. And in these meetings, I mean, there will be some people who maybe weren't thrilled with the choice. There's a lot of people in the Republican Party who are more neo Connie. Or who just thought he was inexperienced and didn't belong in this role. Right. I mean, you tell me. But within the Pentagon, it's not all loyal.

[Colin Carroll]

I think that it goes back to building the team. So I'm a firm believer in, like, in order to get stuff done, you have to have a team. The, the whole part of the team is trust, and you have to trust the department. Will there be people that are trying to undermine you? Absolutely. Are there going to be people that have their own agenda in the department? 3 million people? Of course there are. Half of them are probably Democrats, half a Republican, if it mirrors America. The reality, though, is you can't just write a memo and then it's done. You have to rely on the people to get the work done. And when you find people that aren't, you eliminate them or put them off to the side or whatever mechanism you can use to make that person less of an obstacle. My observation from the first 90 days, and this is going to sound weird, is that we had less of a problem from the deep state bureaucrats in the department than we did from maybe some people on our own team. And that sounds weird, but if you think about the department, the civilian workforce, I don't say they were running scared. Maybe they would come on and say that they were scared. But, you know, we, we were actively shaping that workforce to be proactive to what we wanted done. And where there were people that were like an obstacle, it was just rust steam all over them. The military workforce is the military. They clearly have their agendas, especially at the general officer level. Like, there's agendas for sure. And I watched some of the agendas play out, but at the end of the day, like, they work for the secretary and he says, this is what's going to happen, and the military goes and does it. Where I saw Us run into problems was like, we did not have a functioning political team process.

[Megyn Kelly]

The people he brought in.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, really one person, in my opinion, but it was, it was a functioning process. Yeah. Joe just said, hey, I realized that I'm not the right person to actually chief the staff. I'm better for special projects. Joe's a nuanced person because he's not, he's not like a complete idiot. Right. He, he was useful for certain things and he did a good job at those things. Hey, renaming Bragg and renaming Benning, you know, that was Joe. He managed that whole thing end to end, came up with a clever solution and went and did it. Unfortunately, that probably took hours of his time when he should have been like chiefing the staff for a much larger strategic efforts that we were trying to do, but he did it. Now if you said, hey, Joe's gonna go do special projects like that and like, knock it out of the park, great. The secretary brought in Darren to chief the staff. You know, from my, from my perspective in the deputy's office, I was kind of told like, hey, Darren's the guy to work with now. This is how we're gonna do it. Joe would get mad about that and like not accept that fact.

[Megyn Kelly]

And so now that he's gone, do you feel like it'll be a more functional place?

[Colin Carroll]

Now? I've thought through this before in the last couple days. I, I like to hope so. But I think that there's a lot of water under the bridge at this point. This can be really hard to recover from. There are now, there is like actually a culture of kind of fear and toxicity. And you know, whether it was the, the disgruntled former employees, like, it is clear to me that there are people in the department that are actively leaking and are seeing this as an opportunity. And I'm not sure how you recover from that. When I was told driving up here from New York City is they're polygraphing people actively right now in the department. There's just like a culture fear. It's people that are political, people that are on the team, and no one's going to want to come into that environment. So if you've created that environment, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy. Now we're people are just gonna leave because no one wants to deal with that. And then your, your team gets smaller and smaller and smaller and it's gonna be really hard.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right? It's like, what was he supposed to do if people are leaking top secret information, like you have to do Leak investigations, and you have to fire people. Now, whether he fired the right three people.

[Colin Carroll]

So, I mean, there are ways to run leak investigations, and I actually think that there's one that's in the press right now that has been kind of a not super public thing, which is how Tulsi ran the IC leak investigations where she just referred to people to come to doj. And I think there's a third coming. And, like, we don't know their names and we don't know exactly what they leaked, but they clearly ran a great investigation. They probably have enough evidence to actually go. Go get these people. That's not what we did here. We had Air Force outside trying to do that, and then we had this, like, separate thing that was super public and basically totally backfired. And that's why we're having conversation right now. Right, Right. And the.

[Megyn Kelly]

The truth of it is I shouldn't even know your name.

[Colin Carroll]

Right. And honestly, like, I shouldn't even know I'm under investigation until my handcuffs go on. Right. Like, that's. That's how we do it.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's.

[Colin Carroll]

I'm a Marine Corinthians. Like, that's what we do.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's almost like they wanted to humiliate you. Yeah.

[Colin Carroll]

I mean, it's clear to me that there was an agenda. You know, I think I wasn't even, like, hadn't even been escorted out by the time someone was tweeting out, like, hey, he got escorted out. That's not a. That wasn't leaks. Right. That was an orchestrated campaign from public affairs to say these things off the record or on background or whatever the terminology is. I. I mean, that just makes me upset. Right. If you have something to say, go on the record and say it. Speaking of the investigation and status of it, I. I got a call from. Yeah. A reporter at the Guardian yesterday. And, like, I don't want to give away all the things. Maybe I shouldn't even said that. I don't know. But your guy called me and I.

[Megyn Kelly]

Was like, guardian anything?

[Colin Carroll]

I was like, hey, I'll go on the record for you. He. He asked me to come as I'll go on the record and state a thing. And he had a. Had told me that a person from the Pentagon who we determined was Tim Parlator, was calling him and peddling a theory of the leak investigation that involved the Panama Papers being leaked by a conspiracy to get Joe in trouble. And that when that didn't stick, they called back and said, actually, Colin's obstructing the Investigation because I have a, I have a legal team and they are working a defamation lawsuit against Joe who by the way, I wasn't part of the investigation as you told me and he has personally told me. So I don't know how I've been obstructing the investigation by looking at Joe, but it appeared I was told, hey, Colin is what they came back with told him was actually he was fired because he was routing contracts to his former employer. So I'm just telling you that there is a coordinated campaign of people in the department that are anonymous, official people that are trying to get the press to publish things about myself, Dan and Darren and probably John, but I don't know that are completely factually inaccurate and are. It is cowardice in my opinion. It is cowardice. Like if you have something to say, say it via the investigation or go on the record and say it. And oh, by the way, I sent the knowledge that I got from that reporter calling me to my Air Force OSI agent and said it is unacceptable that they lead for the investigation. Tim Parlator is calling the press and leaking about my investigation. I didn't reply back.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, we'll reach out to them and give them the chance to respond to all this. But you mentioned that you hired a lawyer, a defamation lawyer.

[Colin Carroll]

I'm working with a team. I haven't hired him yet.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so what's the thought there?

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I mean what they're telling me is that there's the Federal Tort Claims Act I think is what it's called.

[Megyn Kelly]

But don't tell me what your lawyers are telling you. That's. That's between you and them. But just tell me.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, I'm just saying generally what's in your head.

[Megyn Kelly]

What are you thinking?

[Colin Carroll]

I personally think that's that, that Joe. I have people that are reporters that I talked to who told me that Joe called them as the anonymous source from his personal number, probably in an off duty status. Right. So like in the evening and said Colin was fired for leaking like Ukraine and Panama and if that is the case and we can prove that, then we will sue for defamation.

[Megyn Kelly]

If you have reporters who are going to go on the record with who their sources on something like that, like giving it up. That's extraordinary.

[Colin Carroll]

Well, they feel like they were. They've been bamboozled this whole time and have been lied to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you like, what's the bottom line here? Like is the Pentagon salvageable in its current form? Is Pete gonna make it and should.

[Colin Carroll]

He on the Pete question. I think that's really a question for the President. And like, I wouldn't get ahead of that.

[Megyn Kelly]

What are you rooting for?

[Colin Carroll]

I really want to go back to the department. I don't think that Pete would have me back. And Honestly, I'm not 100 sure I would go back with him there just based on what I've seen. Now maybe he's been told, hey, there's all this evidence, and he just didn't do the detailed look at it. But I'd have to say that for Dan and Darren in particular to be fired, the secretary would have looked at that in detail because those are his.

[Megyn Kelly]

Are.

[Colin Carroll]

Are his people. So my guess is that right now people are trying to scramble to create some evidence that's personally for me, for the department. It's a hard question. I mean, we. We have not had a major challenge at this point. So I don't know how the department would function if we had, say, like the fall of Kabul, where we had to, you know, the department had to scramble to get 70,000 people out of Afghanistan in like a week or less than a week. I'm not sure how that would.

[Megyn Kelly]

Something where disorganization could really hurt us. You're saying.

[Colin Carroll]

Correct. That's what. That's my biggest fear. It's not like single gate and all that stuff. Like whatever I told you before, I don't think that's as serious as it. As it is. Maybe it's a lack of judgment, but it's not the end of the world. I think that my bigger fear is something. Something happens somewhere on the planet and we have to perform the duties of the Department of Defense and we are unable to do it. I also personally think that with the three of us out and then some of the other senior assistants that were in my office that quit last week, like the. The president's agenda is at risk right now. It is risk of failing, but is at risk of being accomplished on the schedule that we set that he wanted. So things like golden dome, things like shipbuilding, there's a team. These are really hard problems, and they're massive, and they involve a lot of parts of the department coordinating together, like deliver something. That's my biggest fear. And I think that Mr. Feinberg is trying to probably corral the wagons right now and get everything back on track and moving in a direction. I would much rather be there helping him do it than out here talking to you, quite frankly.

[Megyn Kelly]

You never know. Could work out. I mean, I think Pete is a great guy. I think he's capable of meeting when he's wrong. I realize he's in a different post now, and it's a very important one and there may be many other considerations, but I don't know. I feel like if you get exonerated, maybe you could go back. Maybe they could turn the page on both sides.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. Steve Feinberg is a super private person and will probably murder me for going on the tv, but honestly, this isn't something I do. It's my first time on tv. They don't put me in front of the camera. I'm not that person. I'm the person in the background that tries to get work done. I do feel like this was the one recourse I had to try and actually explain what the hell is going on here. And I do think that we are owed an apology. I certainly believe that I am owed an apology and I would like to be exonerated publicly.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, it must be incredibly frustrating to see all these negative stories about you and to feel powerless to stop them.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, you know, I don't think I've, like, had a chance to process it quite yet. I was working six to seven days a week, depending on the day. I would get up in the dark. I would leave at 6, 6:30. I would come back at between 8:30 and 10:11, depending on the day. Saturday, Sundays, I just get like, the weekend before we got fired, there was a big crisis. Nsc. It was like, hey, can you come in? We went in on Saturday. We were there all day Sunday. I had a winery book with my wife in Virginia is at 2pm I went in in the morning. I got back around 12:30. I was like, all right, we're gonna go out there. It's an hour drive. And I had to be back by 4:30 to meet with my boss.

[Megyn Kelly]

On a Sunday?

[Colin Carroll]

On Sunday. And then I got a note from the nsc. It's like, damn it, I gotta go back to work. So I was like, sorry, babe, I gotta go back. So that was my life. It was just like running full, full pace. This past week has kind of been like a vacation. I actually feel worse for the people that I left behind in the department, like my boss and my team, who, you know, there's. There's 16 balls in the air. And I probably was the only person that knew about like, four of them. And those balls have fallen. And that's my fault for not, you know, having the team read in. And I think that they're probably, you know, rowing even harder now. And I left a Huge gap. I feel terrible about that. I feel like I'm. I'm. I don't. I didn't do anything wrong. So, like, my stress level is not really high. I've not been. You know, there's not like, criminal. All these criminal kind of allegations coming out. Like, Dan has. Dan has. You know, this is his life. He is a, like, MAGA ecosystem person. And if he's not credible and trusted in that ecosystem, it's not like he can go jump the Democrats or jump to the other part of the Republican Party. Like, this is him. He has friends. Darren, I think will retire. These guys are great Americans, by the way. Like, Dan is a enlisted Marine who went to combat after he got back. He's been literally serving his entire life to make this agenda a thing. Darren spent years in the Air Force after the Air Force. He's literally been trying to help veterans like me who are in way worse shape than me for the last decade and a half. These people dropped everything to come in the department. I'm honored to actually work with them. And when I hear things like, Joe's a great American, and I look at Joe and it's like, yeah, he was in the Air Force for a little bit, and that's awesome. He served. He worked for Duncan Hunter. Probably not the best lessons learned from that experience. And then he went to lobby for literally all the companies that fail to make anything that works at a cost that we can afford. I don't, like. I'm not. I don't see it. I don't see the. The. The juxtaposition there is weird to me. So I feel for those two. I. You know, I feel for my twin brother who sent me a note last week, and, like, they're using my photo on Twitter.

[Megyn Kelly]

No. Is he identical?

[Colin Carroll]

We're not identical. No, we're fraternal.

[Megyn Kelly]

Close enough.

[Colin Carroll]

But I don't have. I'm not the most public person, so they couldn't find a photo of me, and I guess they just grabbed one of Kieran. So he was really upset. You know, I've been getting threats. I wouldn't call them death threats, but things like, you know, we're coming for you, or like, they're going to get you stuff like that on LinkedIn. And that's the only media platform I have. My wife's like, hey, we got to change the doors, the locks to the doors. You know, we've got a kid, another kid on the way. It's like, it is stressful, and I just think that it could have been done in a completely different manner. And I didn't leak anything, so I'm totally comfortable saying I'm innocent.

[Megyn Kelly]

Nothing's gonna come out proving that you leaked anything?

[Colin Carroll]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

Or aided and abetted a leaking?

[Colin Carroll]

No, not at all.

[Megyn Kelly]

God bless Colin.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah. Thank you, Megan, for having me on.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, thank you for trusting me with the story.

[Colin Carroll]

Yeah, definitely.

[Megyn Kelly]

After our interview with Colin, we reached out both to Joe Casper, whose name you heard quite a few times there, and to Tim Parlator. And Mr. Parlatori declined to give us a statement, but Joe Casper did, and it reads as follows. The idea there was dysfunction is an argument of convenience, which in hindsight is being weaponized by a small group who are rallying against the president and the secretary in their own interests. In 90 days, we re established Gitmo, transferred migrants on gray tails, which we think is a reference to military aircraft, added 10,000 troops on the border, protected freedom of navigation against Houthi threats, redesigned installations, restored warrior ethos, and put recruitment and retention back on track. That's not dysfunction, that's success. Colin wasn't part of any of it, but I wish him all the best. He's a smart guy with unlimited potential. We've extended an offer to both men to come on and we will let you know if they do. Awaiting your thoughts as well. You know how to reach me. It's meganaganekelly.com Would love to know what you think of this whole story. Until next time. See you soon. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No bs, no agenda and no fear. You know the secret to great days, better nights. It all starts by turning your bedroom into a sanctuary with cozy earth. Their bamboo sheet set is something special. The softest, coolest, most luxurious sheets you will ever own. Breathable, temperature regulating and crafted to help you sleep like it actually matters. Imagine crawling into bed every night and feeling restored, refreshed and ready to take on tomorrow. And don't forget about their bamboo pajamas. Lightweight, yet cozy, they're designed to help you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer. It's the sleepwear upgrade you didn't know you needed, but you definitely deserve. Cozy earth makes it easy. You get 100 nights risk free. Plus every bedding product is backed by a 10 year warranty. So take the time to prioritize your sleep and prioritize you. Visit cozyearth.com use my exclusive code M E G Y N and get up to 40% off sheets, pajamas, towels and more. Cozyearth.com code Megan and if you Get a post purchase survey. Let them know that you heard about Cozy Earth from us at the Megyn Kelly Show. Sleep better with Cozy Earth There's a nationwide funding crisis that prevents teachers from getting the resources they need. That's where donors choose comes in. People like you can help teachers get funding for supplies and experiences their students need to succeed. Learn [e-mail].

[Colin Carroll]

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