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The Megyn Kelly Show
Hawaii Doc Gerhardt Konig's Appeal, Ebony Parker Case Dismissed - "The MK True Crime Show" with Dave Aronberg, Phil Holloway, and Ashleigh Merchant
01:03:03
Megyn Kelly brings you the latest episode of the new The MK True Crime Show - hosted twice a week on the MK True Crime feed by Dave Aronberg, Phil Holloway, and Ashleigh Merchant, featuring newsmaking guest interviews, live trial coverage and more - enjoy, and subscribe: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mk-true-crime/id1829831499 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4o80I2RSC2NvY51TIaKkJW YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MKTrueCrime?sub_confirmation=1 Social: http://mktruecrime.com/
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. And today we are bringing you an episode of our new true crime show hosted by Kelly's court favorites, Phil Holloway, Dave Aronberg and Ashley Merchant. It's called the MK True Crime show. And if you like what you hear, you can go and subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts for free. Enjoy.
- [00:27]
B
Welcome to the MK True Crime Show. I'm Dave Aronberg, former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida and current managing partner of Dave Aronberg Law. I'm joined today by my co host, Ashley Merchant, criminal defense attorney from Atlanta, Ga, Although originally from the Sunshine State. Hello, Ashley.
- [00:45]
C
Hey, how are you?
- [00:47]
B
I'm doing great. You know, I'm the Florida lawman, but I'm on the road today. We're heading to CrimeCon and we're both very excited. We can't wait to meet people and talk about true crime. Let's go over what we have on the docket today. The Maui doctor convicted last month of attempted manslaughter for trying to push his wife off a cliff wants a redo. We'll discuss how post trial comments from the jury might make for a successful appeal. Why do they keep commenting? Prosecutors hate that.
- [01:15]
C
I know, I know. And we've got an update in a case against the school administrator who is charged with negligence for allowing a six year old to stay in class after the school received reports that this child had a gun. We'll talk about why the charges were dismissed and how that's actually good news for the shooting victim.
- [01:32]
B
Joining us later, behavioral scientist and host of the I Don't Belong Here show on YouTube, Samantha Benigno will share her insights on Mackenzie's shrill eye and what Netflix's the Crash can tell us about the Hell on Wheels double murderer. Ashley, let's start with the Gerhardt Koenig appeal. This is a case where been talking a lot about on our show, thought it was done right. He was convicted of manslaughter, not exactly murder, but, you know, decent. And now he is ready to appeal. What's the deal?
- [02:06]
C
Yeah, so apparently his lawyers got a, you know, got some news that some of the jurors may have had second thoughts. And, you know, that's not that uncommon. But let's just kind of catch our viewers up on what happened in this case. So this is the case out in Hawaii where Mr. Koenig, he's a doctor, was a doctor, I guess he's not gonna be for much longer. But he was charged with second degree attempted murder For Assaul, his wife, Ariel Koenig. They were on a cliffside hike back in March of 2025. They were celebrating her birthday and apparently trying to repair their relationship after she had had an out of state affair with a colleague. The allegations were that he actually attacked or she actually attacked him first and then that he hit her back with a large rock in self defense. Here is Gerhard's account of the attack.
- [02:52]
D
I felt like a shove and I was almost pushed over the edge.
- [02:59]
B
You felt a shove? Who shoved you?
- [03:03]
D
Henry did.
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B
What did you do right after that?
- [03:08]
D
Barely caught myself and turned around and looked at her and was like, what the fuck was that?
- [03:13]
B
Like, when you start walking towards her, is she saying anything?
- [03:16]
D
Not initially. But I turn around and I'm asking her like, what the hell, you know, what the fuck just happened and what's going on? And as I'm starting to walk towards her, she starts yelling. She starts yelling, yeah, help me, help me. She kind of grabs my wrists and throws herself on the ground and pulls me down with her. So she grabs me by the testicles and I'm trying to get her to let go of my testicles. And then she hits me with the rock on the side of the face. I finally get the rock.
- [03:44]
B
What'd you do?
- [03:45]
D
I hit her with the rock.
- [03:48]
B
How many times do you think you hit her?
- [03:49]
D
I hit her two times.
- [03:52]
B
That's not what the witnesses said. The witnesses saw him hit her many times and it was an attempt in their mind to kill her. And she survived. Thankfully. She's a small woman. He is the aggressor here. And she was a bloody mess afterwards, whereas he hardly had a scratch on him. And yet he portrayed himself as a victim. And he was found guilty of manslaughter because the jurors didn't think that he had the intent to kill her. Ooh, that's a problem though. Isn't that a problem, Ashley?
- [04:24]
C
Yeah, that's a big problem. And so she testified, you know, she testified that he tried to inject her with a syringe after beating her on the head. You know, gave pretty powerful testimony, enough that the jury, you know, voted to convict him. And I think we've got her actual testimony at SOT too.
- [04:39]
E
You know, I'm screaming and I'm saying, what the fuck are you doing? Get off me. And he's saying, like, fuck you. You're. I'm so, so sick of your shit. So done with you. And I'm trying to kind of protect myself and get out of there, but Also, he's gripping his hand closed really hard, and I. There's a vial in his hand. So I was trying to pry his hand open so I could grab that vial out.
- [05:09]
F
Oh.
- [05:10]
E
I mean, I'm screaming, and he's telling me, shut the fuck up. Nobody's. Nobody's gonna hear you out here. Nobody's coming to save you. And I'm saying, like, you can't do this. Everyone knows we're on a hike. They'll know this wasn't an accident, and our kids will be orphans. You'll go to jail, and I'll be dead. Like, you have to stop. And again, he's saying, like, you're done. We're done with you. We don't need you anymore. You're done.
- [05:40]
F
You're done.
- [05:41]
E
And then he just starts hitting my face and my head with a rock.
- [05:47]
B
Yeah.
- [05:47]
C
So the latest, Dave, is they filed an appeal. So apparently Girard's defense attorney filed a motion for new trial based on some post trial interviews that were given by jurors. And he said that while we remain grateful that Dr. Koenig was not convicted of attempted murder, statements by certain jurors after the verdict demonstrate that he should not have been convicted of attempted manslaughter either. So apparently they're basing their appeal on that, Dave.
- [06:14]
B
Well, as a former prosecutor, normally I just say jurors have a lot of leeway, a lot of discretion, and even if they get certain things wrong, you just say, hey, that's the jury process. But when it comes to an element of the crime here, manslaughter and murder both require an intent to kill someone. The difference is that manslaughter, you're under extreme emotional distress. It's like the situation where you. You find someone in bed with your wife and you pull out a shotgun and kill them. That's manslaughter, not necessarily murder.
- [06:46]
G
I think we all had a better perspective after reading the instructions. So when we came in, we really had to dig down and focus on what the instructions were and what each count was.
- [06:56]
C
The jury of seven women and five men deliberating for about eight hours. The foreperson telling NBC News why they ultimately chose not to convict Koenig of the most serious charge, second degree attempted murder.
- [07:08]
G
We felt that with the language presented in our instructions that the definition of attempted murder was not fully met by the evidence shown. We could see that there was definitely evidence of a track record of the ability for emotional disturbance to have occurred.
- [07:24]
B
But juror Makalapua Atkins also says they didn't believe Koenig intended to murder his wife that day.
- [07:30]
G
The intent to kill is improbable to us based on the evidence presented.
- [07:36]
B
What this juror person just said is we didn't think that he was guilty of attempted murder in the second degree, so that's a little problematic.
- [07:46]
C
Dave. This is literally one of my worst nightmares as a defense lawyer. I have so many things when I. When I see this, so many different emotions and different memories come up. I. Clients always want us to interview jurors after a verdict. They always do. And I always caution them, please don't. And, you know, I like to talk to jurors about things in the case because I learned from it. But interviewing jurors, you get this, and it is terrifying when you see how the actual sausage is made inside that jury room. If. I mean, what this juror is saying is that she voted to convict, maybe because she was confused on the law. I mean, that's what it sounds like, because they voted to convict. And now she's saying, we don't think that they proved it. Well, you voted to convict, so what are you doing now? Why are you changing your mind?
- [08:31]
B
And they do get a lot of discretion in there. And you generally don't overturn a case because jurors were confused. But, I mean, I'd love to get your thoughts, Ashley, because as a defense lawyer, even though you don't want your attorneys and your clients to talk to jurors, the juror had a fundamental misunderstanding of the law and voted to convict on an attempt in manslaughter, even though that does require an intent to kill someone. So shouldn't that be enough for an appeal? Well, maybe, maybe not. It's complicated, as the kids like to say on Facebook. But I do think it raises legitimate questions that now put question mark at the end of this verdict.
- [09:16]
C
Yeah. And, you know, the lawyers in this case are smart, the way that they're attacking it, because you can't typically impeach a verdict. And what does that mean, impeach? It just means kind of undo a verdict by a juror changing their mind. And that's the law, because jurors change their minds all the time. I mean, it's a heavy decision. You make it in a jury room when you're in a situation where you're talking with your fellow jurors. And a lot of people have second, you know, second decisions on that, particularly when they hear about what the sentence is. You know, especially states that have mandatory minimums, jurors aren't allowed to know about the mandatory minimums when they're voting to guilt, you know, for guilt or innocence. And then after they convict and they find out what the mandatory minimum is, a lot of them are horrified. Said, you know, if I had known that this person was going to get life, you know, for example, I would never have voted to convict. But I think the lawyers are smart here. The appeal is saying that the court, that they're trying to give the court the opportunity to prevent an unjust result, and they're trying to wedge in this juror's confusion to. To say it's an unjust result. And so the trial court does have broad discretion to do that. I don't think it's likely to win here because we don't like to overturn verdicts once they're. Once a jury speaks. But they are trying their best at this. And they're arguing that juror instructions can be complex, they can be confusing, and misunderstandings happen. The problem is, and that's one of the reasons I spend so much time arguing jury charges and the law to jurors. I know it gets boring. And I always warn my jurors, I'm sorry, but I don't want to end up in a situation where a juror is doing something like this and saying, you know, I voted for it, but it's because I was confused. You know, that's always kind of a stressful situation.
- [10:48]
B
You say it's your greatest nightmare as a defense lawyer. It was prosecutor's greatest nightmare when I was at the state attorney's office, where the jurors come out and they say, yeah, you know, I'm writing a book about this. No, don't talk like that.
- [10:59]
C
Oh, my God.
- [11:00]
B
Yes, we've had a case overturned because of that, because one of the jurors was writing a book. And so just nothing good comes at. Comes after a juror starts speaking. Nothing good can come out of it. But, you know, they thank you for your service, your jurors, and you do have First Amendment rights, but you can then undo everything after that. And then, of course, you can get the clerk of court to try to fix the case, and that's even worse.
- [11:25]
C
And have a book deal, and then they go to prison. And, you know, you can't make this stuff up. It's insane.
- [11:30]
B
It's insane. Now, just before we go on to Abby's Warner, I do want to mention something. I don't understand how the jurors and I respect, but I understand how they didn't think there was an Attempt to kill. He researched a cliff where they could walk, which was the most dangerous cliff, where it was the narrowest area, where she could fall off. And then he told her to take a selfie, like at the edge of the cliff. And when she wouldn't, he got furious at her and then started hitting her with a rock.
- [11:57]
C
I completely agree with you, Dave. So this to me is a case of all or nothing. Either he was trying to kill her or he wasn't. He wasn't trying to hurt her, he wasn't trying to threaten her, he wasn't trying to harm her. He was trying to kill her or he wasn't. It was either an accident or it wasn't. I mean, I'm with you. I don't think this is really one of those issues that they really argued. It sounds like a juror is just having second thoughts now because they've seen, you know, all the coverage. They've probably learned something that they didn't learn during trial and that I wanted to point out. One of the big reasons that we don't let jurors impeach the verdict, you know, undo the verdict, is because once they leave that jury room, they're subject to a lot of information that they didn't have in the jury room. And there's reasons they didn't have it. There's certain evidence that's not reliable. And so a judge actually has to keep that evidence out. You know, if there's things that are illegally obtained, statements that are uncorroborated, things that are unreliable, doesn't go in the jury room. So they made that decision when they had all that information, and now they're having hindsight. But perhaps they read a comment that influenced them. Perhaps they heard an argument, a new argument. That's not fair because that's not something that was actually decided in that courtroom. So I really don't think we're going to see this go a whole lot, you know, a whole lot further.
- [13:02]
A
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- [14:11]
C
But we have, like you mentioned, Dave, another really interesting case. This is out of Newport News, Virginia. The elementary school teacher, Abby's Warner, she was shot by a six year old in her class back in January of 2023. And we've seen quite a few different cases with this. She suffered wounds from her hands, her chest, her left hand was actually shattered. She's had six surgeries, has permanent damage. A bullet went through her chest, it collapsed her lung. I mean, so we're talking some significant damage here from this six year old. But Abby Zwerner, she sued the former vice principal of the school, Ebony Parker, for gross negligence and she got a $10 million jury verdict. She was asking for $40 million. She got a verdict. And so now we're seeing some criminal prosecutions happening in.
- [14:59]
B
Yes. Our amazing producer asked also if attorneys generally ask for more than they expect to get as a tactic. So if you ask for 40 million, you get 10 million as a compromise, that does happen. But you have to be careful because you could overplay your hand. You can lose credibility with the jury. You're like, you're asking for 40 million, please zero. So you have to be careful. It's like when prosecutors overcharge. You could lose everything. It's dangerous. But here a jury found Parker liable for $10 million. And then there are criminal charges that were filed against Parker and they were dismissed. But Ashley, you know how you win by losing in this case, the victim won by losing that criminal case. And you know why, right?
- [15:42]
C
Oh yeah.
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H
Oh yeah.
- [15:43]
C
So what happens? And this, we see this a lot of times with car accidents. Most the best example I could use is like a dui, for example, you've got someone that is driving drunk and they have car insurance and they hurt someone, kill them, something like that. There's a civil suit. Well, most of our insurance policies say if you're driving drunk, that's an exclusion. So I bet you anything that your insurance policy for your car says if you are found guilty of dui. We are not going to pay your claim. So what happens? That person who is actually run over, they get no justice in civil court. They get no money because the person is then charged criminally. So it's always this, this tough, you know, walking a line. Do you want to have a civil case? Do you want to have a criminal case? And, and like we see here a lot of times, the government tries to do all of it because they have different motivations. You know, the government who's deciding to prosecute, they're trying to think about future dangerousness, things like that. And then you've got the civil justice, which is about making the person whole. So they're different analysis and different reasons. And that's what we've seen in this case. So, you know, we've got, we've got Parker, who she was alleged to have received multiple reports that were known to be credible that this student was armed. So apparently she knew or should have known that this student was armed. Parker told a teacher to search the backpack, but didn't actually search the backpack until the mother arrived at school, was waiting to search the backpack. And that's when this shooting happened. The mom I thought was interesting, the mom back in 2023 of this student was actually sentenced to two years in state prison for child neglect in connection with the shooting. She was released from custody earlier this month. But we've seen this a lot. We've seen this here in Georgia with a recent school shooting. We've had, we've seen it in Florida, you know, all over the place, where parents are starting to be charged when their kids do acts like this for child neglect. And I think that's a big trend we're seeing in criminal prosec. But I think this criminal case against Ebony Parker, against the school principal, probably took it a little bit too far. Curious your opinion, Dave, as a former prosecutor. But just to catch our viewers up, our listeners up, she was facing eight counts of felony child abuse and disregard for a life, one for each bullet in the gun found in the child's possession. The prosecutor says she ignored warnings that the child had a weapon. And the defense argued that the allegations were not criminal in nature. And we had a trial. And what happened there?
- [17:58]
B
Yeah, well, he had a trial, but in the case of Ebony Parker, the judge just said, no, there won't be a trial because we're going to dismiss it in advance, which is rare, but it happens. And so the trial was the civil trial. And I think if you ask the victim here, Ms. Werner, if she could choose between winning the $10 million in the civil trial or get Ms. Parker convicted and sentenced to prison 100 out of 100 times. She would rather have the $10 million. And that's because of what you said. Prosecutors represent the people, the state. They're not representing the victim. And the victim has her own lawyers representing the victim. And she got compensation. She didn't get 40 million. But 10 million is a good judgment if she can collect it from insurance and so forth. But you asked a question about the case. Before we get to it, I want to place SOT4 because we want to see how the judge dismissed the charges and then we'll talk about on the other side.
- [18:59]
I
Those legal theories do not fit the plain meaning of the statute. If they are amount. If they are to amount to a crime, then the legislature will need to codify it. Therefore, I do bring defense motion to strike in hold on all counts, all eight counts of felony child abuse and endangerment under indictment, CR 249-995-4101 through 08. So those matters are dismissed. I want to add my ruling today is based on upon legal principles only. Now, it is inappropriate for me to give my personal thoughts or express sympathy or concern, but it's understanding what happened that day was awful. That is agreed upon by all. The criminal matter before me does not call for me to discuss the Newport newspool system or make political observations. And I will not comment on optics or engage in speculation.
- [20:04]
B
Ashley, you had asked me a question about, as a prosecutor, how tough is it to prosecute someone other than the parents for child neglect when you have a child who's not your child come to school with a gun. And we have tried this now multiple times, and each time it has failed. You've seen it. Scott Peterson in the Marjory Stillman Douglas case. He was the school law enforcement, the resource officer who did not run into the building. They charged him with criminal child neglect. But they said, you know, it's weird. You're charging a copy for child neglect, and it's not really the right charge. Child abuse, you have to have some sort of duty being a parent or to actually be convicted of such a charge. And we've seen parents like the parent in this case. So he was acquitted. He was found not guilty. Now, you also saw in Uvalde, Texas, similar charges, and there too you saw a not guilty verdict. And so here I'm not that surprised that again you see a judge say, not only are we not gonna let this go to a jury, we're gonna end it right now. So it won't even be a trial. We're not even gonna have a trial because you can't find someone under these facts guilty of child neglect, child abuse. As a prosecutor, I wish we could, but that seal has not been broken yet.
- [21:19]
C
Right. That's up to the legislature if they wanna criminalize that. But, you know, and I agree with you, and it's interesting, and I wanna talk for a minute about how this result came about, you know, how this trial came about, because I think it's important when we talk about our next case up, Mackenzie Shrilla, who had what's called a bench trial. So in this case, so this case, Ebony Parker, you know, she was charged with these felonies. She went to trial. The. In the opening statements, they had. They had. You know, they started with the trial, and the prosecutor said that Parker was the only person with authority and knowledge of this armed student. So that she's the person that could have intervened before the shooting happened. The defense said, well, if she was held liable, so should every other staff member. But what happened after the prosecution presented their witnesses? Before the defense started presenting their witnesses, they asked the judge to dismiss the charges. And that's the SOT you all just saw, where the judge said, you know, I don't think that there was a crime committed here. And the judge made the tough decision saying, I don't think this can go to a jury. And the reason I want to highlight that for our viewers is when I watch, you know, I watched the Netflix documentary the Crash, and I saw her have a bench trial. And we talked about that a lot on this. You know, on the show, people maybe waive their rights to a jury trial and have a bench trial. This is a really good illustration of why I always say, don't ever do that. And yeah, I mean, and this is it. Because you've got a judge that is willing to get the charges dismissed. Even if you have a jury trial, the judge can always dismiss the charges. So why would you waive that jury trial when you have a situation like you have here, where the judge actually is the one that dismisses it? Why would you give that up?
- [22:50]
B
Yeah, it is the most embarrassing thing for a prosecutor when they come back to my office and say, I just got joa, because it almost never happens. So JOA is judgment of acquittal. And it is like the greatest thing for defense lawyer because it means. Oh, it is, right? Jury, jury, you go home, we're not even gonna let you hear it. But the Standard. It's really hard and it's rare. You gotta show you that the. That the state didn't even put on what's called a prima facie case, which means it doesn't. You didn't like what you presented, even if it's true, doesn't convict someone. Like, there's no crime here.
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C
Right.
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B
And so it's rare. Judges don't like to take the decision making out of the jury's hands. And when it happens, it's humiliating for prosecutors. And I saw, Ashley, you laugh because you've been there before, huh? You've had that.
- [23:37]
C
I have, yeah, I have. It is humiliating for prosecutors. I mean, it's one of those things in this case, you know, the judge said, I don't see a legal basis for the charges. So the prosecution has done all this and the judge is saying, you were wrong. I mean, that's pretty bad. We did have a question from our producer, which I thought was a great question I wanted to bring up. She asked, shouldn't that issue have been raised before the trial started? And isn't this something the defense should have moved for pretrial to dismiss it? And I can tell you that that is typically a really strong strategy decision. And there is a huge strategy between waiting until trial and it is two words, double jeopardy. If you get a case dismissed pretrial without prejudice, then the state can re bring the case. And it is very hard to do that. It's very hard to get a case dismissed on double jeopardy grounds if the judge dismissed it pretrial because guess what? Jeopardy never attached. Jeopardy attaches when a witness takes the stand or a jury is sworn in. That's when jeopardy attaches. So if you have a judge dismissing a case pretrial, there's no double jeopardy grounds. So most defense lawyers are going to want to wait until jeopardy has actually attached, which is when that witness is sworn in in a bench trial or the jury is sworn in in a jury trial. So I did want to answer our question on that.
- [24:52]
B
It's a great answer. Thank you for answering it. And I want to also give kudos to our producer Michelle for another great question, like, what is she doing in media? Maybe she should be a lawyer. Michelle.
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C
I know I was like, these are great questions. This is what people want to know about. I love this.
- [25:05]
B
Yeah. Very impressed. I cannot wait, by the way, to talk about the Charilla case. I watched the Netflix documentary. It was actually assigned to us by our producer. I think Michelle required us to watch it and man, it was good. It was so good. Netflix is not a sponsor of the show yet, but man, that was a good documentary and we're gonna be talking about it after the break. Oh my goodness. So next, behavioral scientist and host of the I Don't Belong Here show on YouTube, Samantha Benigno joins us to discuss hell on wheels killer Mackenzie Scirilla, or as they call her, Killa Cherrilla. Stay tuned. Let's be real. Between recording episodes, chasing fur babies, running errands and trying to squeeze in a workout, the last thing I want to do is to pile the whole family in a car and waste a perfectly good Saturday in some big box store just to look at window treatments. Who wants to do that? There's a much better way. Three Day Blinds, the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the US Their local professionally trained design consultants give a free no obligation quote the same day. Not handy, Same here. They handle every step design, precise measuring and professional installation. Their Instagram is full of gorgeous inspiration pics and their smart motorized options connect right to Alexa. Total game changer right now. Get quality window treatments that fit your budget with 3 Day Blinds. Head to 3dayblinds.com mk for their buy one, get one 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery for free. No charge, no obligation consultation. Just head to 3dayblinds.com MK one last time. That's buy one, get one 50% off when you head to the number 3D a Y blinds.com MK
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C
welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. Joining us now is behavioral scientist and host of the I Don't Belong here show on YouTube, Samantha Beningo. Welcome, Samantha, thanks for having us.
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H
Thanks for being with me.
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C
Yes, thank you. So Samantha, you along with us here at MK True Crime have been revisiting the Mackenzie Shrilla story after the release of the Netflix's newest documentary, the Crash. So just in case our audience hasn't watched the documentary yet, let's show the trailer before we get into it.
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B
That's the worst crash I've ever seen. Three occupants, 17 year old female, still breathing. A car crash claimed two young lives and injured a third early yesterday morning. This is the best friend group that I've ever had in my life.
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C
We had just graduated high school. Dom and Kenzie, I love you, baby. They're such a duo.
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B
I was Davion's best friend and we were gonna be unstoppable.
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C
That split second changed all of our lives forever.
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B
It didn't add up. It was hard to comprehend that she could Just drive into a wall.
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C
I would never see her purposely wanting to hurt them.
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B
This was clearly a toxic relationship. We needed to get a full picture of who Mackenzie Shirilla was.
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C
You can go yourself.
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B
The most significant piece of evidence. There was no breaking. This was not an accident. What took place inside that car,
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F
I
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C
think that's the million dollar question. But just to catch everyone up, 17 year old Mackenzie Shrilla. She drove into a brick building at almost 100 miles per hour, killing two passengers. Her boyfriend, Dominic Russo, Dom. And also a friend, Davion Flanagan, who One was 20 and one was 19. She went to trial, she waived her jury trial and had a bench trial. And the judge found her guilty on numerous charges including two count aggravated vehicular homicide. The judge. And we'll listen in just a minute. The judge highlighted that she didn't believe the act was reckless, but she thought it was a mission of death. So let's listen to the portions of her ruling while we show the video of the moments before the crash. From a responsible driver to literal hell on wheels as she makes her way down the street. Mackenzie alone made the decision to drive the car. To drive an obsession obscure route, a route she visited a few days before. She had a mission and she executed it with precision. The mission was death.
- [30:27]
B
So, Samantha, I mean, I watched it. I actually watched it. It was riveting. And let's just say that the defendant here, Ms. C, does not come across very sympathetically. But the only people who seem to come across worse or her parents, especially her father. So I have so many questions for you because you're an expert on this matter. First off, what do you think happened? I mean, in my mind it was she and her boyfriend got in another fight and she went crazy and had a death wish because I can't imagine that she tried to kill them without knowing that it would be likely that she would die too. So is that what you think happened or something else?
- [31:06]
H
Yeah, I mean. So Mackenzie from a clinical perspective has what we know to be a borderline personality disorder. And it's pretty obvious self evidence. And so while yes, she absolutely, in my opinion, was in a rage, I think it was facilitated by fears of losing Dominic, but also anger that was overwhelming her that morning because of Davion as well, which is another conversation that most people haven't really touched upon yet. But also McKinsey was an avid marijuana smoker. And while most of us think it's a pretty harmless drug for a person with this underlying personality disposition and the amount that she had Been smoking. My guess is she was in a form of withdrawal because she had stopped within 24 hours of the accident. So I think it was. Yes, what you're saying, but there's more to it than that.
- [32:11]
C
That's interesting. So when we saw at the end of the documentary, for those who haven't seen it yet, you know, Mackenzie is. Is interviewed, and it becomes clear at the very end that she's got a lawyer in the room. You don't see the lawyer, but the lawyer's back in the. In the corner. And I can't help but think that the lawyer was there and, you know, drug there and didn't want to be there. But you see her turn back to him or her and, you know, make sure that she did a good job. She says, I just want to make sure that I'm big on the no intent. There is no intent whatsoever, and I have excessive amounts of remorse, and it's not intentional, and I'll do everything I can to prove that. It's almost like that's sort of scripted, you know, I know that you've said in your analysis before that you believe that she was acutely aware of the public sentiment about her and that she's doing the documentary because she doesn't want people to think she's a monster. Is that, you know, that section where she's looking back to her lawyer and making sure that everything. She did everything okay, and I did okay. Is that what your reaction is to that moment?
- [33:08]
H
You know, you have to also understand that the Sherilla parents, her parents, do not allow Mackenzie to take responsibility for herself. And, you know, most of my career, I've worked with young adults and adolescents and a lot of families and a lot of parents. Most parents want you to help their child to learn to take responsibility. That's what they're asking of as a clinical professional. Mackenzie's family does exactly the opposite. They will not allow her to be responsible for anything she says or does because this, you know, from my view, this was predictable. This accident could have been avoided long before, and she was on a very predictable course that was bound to end this way or in a similar way.
- [33:57]
C
Yeah, Dave and I were talking about that at a break. I mean, it's. I have an 18 year old that just graduated high school, and I was immediately. Both of us agreed. I mean, the parent. What the hell? You know, what are the parents doing? I mean. Yeah, like what? I mean, what's. Yeah. What's wrong? So you've done a linguistics analysis of, you know, of the parents. Can you tell us about that?
- [34:19]
H
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, when you have somebody who starts threatening suicide the way that Mackenzie did, going back to certainly, we know, freshman, sophomore year in high school, probably middle school, these tantrums, these anger outbursts, rage outbursts really. And she would threaten suicide. That was the go to threat. Now when you have a child that's go to threat suicide, you start to learn as a parent to get into a pattern of just appease them. You don't want to make them feel bad about themselves. And that pattern of appeasing and lack, never allowing her to take responsibility. I mean, this is the inevitable outcome when you have a borderline personality disorder and a child who was in the midst of a pretty severe substance use abuse episode. Right. For many years.
- [35:10]
B
So interesting, because I thought the best argument from the defense lawyer in court was she had to know if she did this on purpose, she would kill herself. And yet there's no indication she ever was suicidal. In fact, her best friend said she loved life, she was like a narcissist and she would never try to kill herself. But what you bring up is so important that it turns out she has repeatedly threatened suicide. So that's important piece of information here. Yeah.
- [35:36]
H
For years and years, she also would talk to Dom. I mean, I've listened to hundreds of hours at this point of everybody and everything, read thousands of text messages between her and Dom. She would repeatedly talk about how much she hates herself, threatened Dom with hurting herself. I mean, routinely had become a normal part of their interaction. Everybody that knew her knew that this was a part of how she was. All of her friends, everybody that knew
- [36:05]
B
her knew, oh, so her best friend is a liar. Because I thought it was also very important that the lawyer, the prosecutor said on camera, said, you spoken to the best friend? I haven't. She won't return my calls. What did she say? I would have loved to have talked to her. So it looks. She looks bad too, then.
- [36:22]
H
Well, you have to remember Rosie is an influencer. She has a lot of followers, I believe, either on TikTok or Instagram. I don't remember which. So she has her own personal investment in. I want to say, you know, looking good, coming out in a way that looks better for her. And that then also means. Means no intent on the part of her really good friend Mackenzie.
- [36:50]
C
That's interesting when you said the thing about her trying to commit suicide, because I'm like, Dave, when I saw the documentary, I immediately thought, well, either she did it or she Was trying to kill herself. And, you know, if she was trying to kill herself, why didn't they use that as a defense? Because that's a. I mean, that's a plausible defense. You know, she could have a mental health defense. And what you're saying about the parents, as soon as I just heard you say that, I'm like, oh, my gosh, that totally clicked. Because I know as a defense lawyer, a lot of times we're stuck by what our clients want us to do. And if the parents and, you know, Mackenzie, a lot with the parents, because of her age, you know, did not want that defense, did not want a mental health defense put forward, which happens a lot. I mean, most of the public thinks that everybody wants to get off by not guilty by reason of insanity. But it's actually more often than not that clients forbid us from presenting that defense because they don't want to go to a, you know, a mental institute because you could essentially be locked up for longer. And it seems like the parents thought that she was innocent, and so they probably thought she was coming home. Didn't want to use this mental health defense because she could end up spending the rest of her life in a mental institute. I mean, that's kind of what it sounds like. Maybe the dynamics behind, you know, all this with the parents, I mean, do you agree with that? Do you think that's plausible?
- [37:57]
H
Yeah, a couple of things, too. So one of the symptoms of borderline is disassociation. So it's sort of like a sense of unreality, like, I'm not embodied. So if you think about the suicidal intent, I don't think that Mackenzie actually understood, really, this is how dangerous it is to protect your child from not taking responsibility from themselves. Then they don't understand. You know, yeah, I'm about to drive this car into a wall, but there's not going to be a consequence. We're all just going to get up and walk out of it tomorrow, and we're going to go about our lives. Right. Like, I don't think Mackenzie understood at that moment that it was the end. I really don't. Even though I agree that she did it on purpose, knowing that she could lose her life. Yeah. And you asked another question, and I don't remember what it was right now.
- [38:51]
G
What was the.
- [38:52]
C
No, that was it. You answered it. That was fascinating.
- [38:54]
B
Samantha, you brought up Davion earlier, and I just. That's another loose end here, because what a tragedy. He was not the boyfriend. He was in the backseat of the car, apparently and just an innocent victim of this awful individual. What's your take? How does he play into this? You were alluding to it how it's a whole nother matter here.
- [39:13]
H
Yeah. So it's really interesting. When I did the in depth statement analysis of Mackenzie, I expected him to be, you know, like everyone described, cargo in the backseat, but she had very distinct feelings for him.
- [39:26]
F
Him.
- [39:27]
H
She. That morning she was angry with him. Now, I can't entirely discern whether he had been living at the house at this time or not, but it appears to me that on that morning, what most likely happened was Mackenzie wanted to be alone with Dom and was irritated by Davion being there, by his presence, feeling like. Like when he was with Dom, Dom's attention was going to be on Davion and not on Mackenzie. And that is how petty Mackenzie is. Right. Like she wanted all of Dom's attention all the time and felt like if Davion was there, that would mean she wasn't going to get it. And so there was definite anger specifically targeted at Davion on that morning from her statement.
- [40:19]
B
Wow.
- [40:20]
C
Wow, that's. So I want to talk a little bit about her life in prison. So apparently she's had a girlfriend in prison that. Her girlfriend. They've now broken up. Does it surprise you at all, your analysis of her that she would be building these types of relationships behind bars?
- [40:36]
H
No, no, no. I mean, she's going to have many of these types of relationships, you know, until she can find one that ultimately she can hold hostage, you know, and I hate to say it that way because it sound. But that is what it is. I mean, the feeling, you know, I think unfortunately, Dom was empathic. He was a sweet guy and he, you know, he was being held hostage by Mackenzie.
- [41:01]
C
Yeah.
- [41:02]
B
Well, Samantha, Ashley and I were talking off air. Ashley made a very astute observation. She saw scale at Dom's house and noted that Dom didn't really have any weight, any job, although they said he was a crypto trader and he bought Mackenzie a lot of gifts and he was living pretty well. Was he a drug dealer?
- [41:20]
H
Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you know, to me, I think he obviously was. There was scales in the car, but I think he had a lot of aspirations. He was very stressed about money, actually, in the months just before this, you know, so he felt like he needs to take care of his family members. Was very, very close family, the Russo family. So, you know, I think he felt the weight of other people's pain and suffering in a very Real way. And, and that's how Mackenzie kind of got her claws in him. He wanted to help her. I mean, he tried to get her to go to a therapist. He tried to even say, let's go together, we'll go together to get help. I mean, he knew more than I think anyone what the deal was with her. It was really interesting to see.
- [42:08]
B
Yeah. If I could follow up on that. Also, Ashley and I were a little surprised that any parent would allow their 17 year old daughter to live with a 20 year old drug dealer. I mean, she was still in high school at the time. And so she leaves the house while she's 17 to live with her older boyfriend who's a drug dealer. Is that something that struck you as unusual?
- [42:27]
H
You know, when you, I mean, her parents were buying her alcohol, they were giving her money for drugs, anything they could do to keep her from escalating. Like the police had been there because of her tantrums when she was a sophomore in high school. You know, her tantrums were so extreme, she, she'd break stuff. I'm gonna kill myself. Like, she was so out of control, so reckless, so intense that I think her family just learned, like, give her whatever she wants, try to keep the peace. And they saw Dom as, you know, like he loved her, he really did try to take care of her. I don't think anybody understood the ins and outs of that relationship. But I'm sure the family was also just happy to not have her in their crosshairs day in and day out. Right. To have her with somebody they trusted and, you know, didn't have to, you know, didn't have to be worrying about her night and day. Having said that though, I'm not so sure she was living there. So I know we've heard that. But based on the language, it seems like she had stayed there quite a bit. But that whether she was actually living there at the time is, you know, she wasn't actually technically living there there. That's how I would say it.
- [43:41]
C
Interesting. So she told. So that, you know, she's had prison girlfriends and things like that. And she's told different inmates different things. She's told some that the crash happened because she was high on mushrooms. And then she told Cheyenne, her ex, that it was because of pots. And we saw in the documentary her mom saying it was because of pots, you know, this nervous system disorder that causes dizziness, fatigue, things like that. And apparently she was diagnosed with that. Do you think she really believed that it was about pots or do you Think she even knows what she's talking about at this point?
- [44:08]
H
Mackenzie?
- [44:09]
C
Yeah.
- [44:10]
H
No, Mackenzie knows exactly. Mackenzie knows what happened.
- [44:14]
C
She's trying to create this narrative, though, with pots like that. She lie. Yeah.
- [44:19]
H
Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, in the very first moments, you know, they have this gypsy language, the her and her mom will speak, Right? And the very first moments after the police show up to talk to her, and they're speaking in this gypsy language, and she says, can I just tell them I had a seizure? You know, so that was from the jump, what the plan was, and they took it and ran with it. You know, the way that amnesia works, it's not unusual to have amnesia from a crash, but you don't get amnesia in such a way where you remember everything up through to the turn and then everything immediately following the accident, but not the four seconds between the turn and hitting the wall. Right. I mean, it's. It's just. It's. It's silliness is what it is.
- [45:08]
B
Yeah. What do you think about that use of gibberish? What. What. What's wrong with this family? I mean, and. And has the family had any accountability, repercussion, responsibility? I mean, have they. Have they been in any trouble for being just delinquent parents here? I mean, what's going on with these folks?
- [45:26]
H
I think it's surprising to them. I really. I mean, I mean, you know, mom is interesting. She's a fascinating character. Sometimes she just says things to mackenzie to try to appease her that she doesn't believe. And again, this is from listening to hours and hours of their jail calls. Other times, you know, she does seem to feed into the narrative that, you know, it's not her fault. I mean, they still blame the accident. To be very clear, on the Russo family. It's all them. They own the judicial system. You know, they were somehow secretly related to the judge. It's all a big conspiracy. I mean, this is the narrative that mom is sort of feeding mackenzie. So, you know, this is. They. I think mom is a little delusional herself, is really hoping that she can start, like, a free mackenzie movement. You know, I don't think they have anybody telling them the truth, frankly. Oh, my gosh.
- [46:20]
C
Well, yeah, and there's, you know, some of the jail calls have actually been released. I know we've got one we can play in a minute, slot nine. But, you know, it's between mackenzie and her mom, and they were recorded, and they're.
- [46:29]
H
It's just.
- [46:29]
C
It's kind of disturbing. If we could play sat Nine. And then I'm really curious, you know, how you think that fits into all of this.
- [46:36]
F
So wait, it's all over the world now that today shows, like national news? Okay, I gotta tell you one more thing. What? It was published in England. What? Yeah, World news. I think the Daily Mail just publishes it in all their publications. But yeah, the uk. It's on the Daily Mail in uk. Maybe Kim Kardashian will reach out herself. That's what I'm saying. I'm hoping I would understand if they gave me like a normal charge, but, like, the charges that they gave me are like, literally insane. It's not. They're trying to make it seem something that it's not. Like, it's not like I didn't do this on purpose. Like, I got in a car accident. I'm a third victim. Like,
- [47:22]
B
oh, that's. That's so. That's so painful to hear that for the families who have to endure that. And I felt bad. You know, I know I talk about Dom being a drug dealer, but, you know, no one deserves that fate. That was just awful. And. And his parents seemed like good people, unlike the Sherillas. His. His father and the sister seemed like good people. And the most empathetic, I thought were Davions father. His parents. His father was so compelling. And his sister. Unbelievable. Do you think that all this, the fact that we're so outraged on the outside by who she is and how, with the lack of remorse she has, do you think that that's going to prevent her from getting parole in 15 years?
- [48:05]
H
I think it depends on what happens along the way. Right. I mean, the thing about this type of. Of mental health problem is that she could get better. I mean, you know, if she had one strong positive influence in her life, you know, she could get better. The challenge is that mom, from what I can tell in these jail calls, really prevents her from ever changing or shifting the narrative. Like, they are just totally focused on trying to get her out. They're trying to get her out of prison.
- [48:38]
C
Yeah. Not trying to get her through it or have her learn. I want to talk about that in the time we got left. We have a few minutes left, but apparently this. And we're not calling Dom names or anything like that. We're certainly not trying to disparage, but I think it's relevant to the facts of the case and to their relationship. It appears that Dom always had Mackenzie actually hold her drugs when she was a minor. We've got a slot on that, slot 11. And then I want to talk to you about some of the other things that sort of go along with that.
- [49:03]
F
That. Yeah, like, the only charge that, like, I think that, like, I shouldn't even be charged with it, though, like, because it was dumb. But, like, I understand. I have to take that. The drugs. Oh. Yep. That's irritating. As should have known better, too. And I. That makes me mad. I'm mad at him for that. Telling you that you can't get in trouble. So just to hold everything. He always told me that. He always had me hold everything. I know. That's because you were a minor.
- [49:32]
H
So.
- [49:33]
C
Yeah. There's multiple texts also that have surfaced that apparently her parents, Mackenzie's parents, were well aware, and they weren't apparently concerned with this drug use, her alcohol use. I mean, if you looked at her social media, you could see it. So she's 17, she's living with an adult male. And if we do the math right, when they started dating, because they'd been dating for four years, she would have been 13, and he would have been 16. So how do you think that that situation was allowed to develop when. With the shrillas knowing that their minor daughter was engaged in all these activities. I mean, dangerous activities, with apparently no pushback at all? You know, this is just. This is insane to me. I mean, how do you think that factored into all of this? You know, everything that's happened, you know, when they tried.
- [50:18]
H
You know, so, for example, there was an incident where they tried to ground Mackenzie when she was a sophomore, and the police wound up at their house because she was breaking things and screaming. And you can't do this to me. I mean, just complete tantrum. You know, you add suicidal threats, that ends any debate pretty fast. They just wanted to try to get her through it, to try to appease her. You know, you can even hear it in these calls with mom. As soon as Mackenzie escalates, she tries to say anything she can to, like, bring her. She calls it anxiety. Mom calls her tantrums anxiety. Down a notch, you know, and so what do you do in that situation? You know, as a professional, those are moments that, you know, you don't. You don't feed that. I mean, you don't appease it because that's what will cause it to get reinforced and then grow. But they didn't get help. And I think she was just really, truly out of control. I mean, she was really a monster. And I hate to say that, right? As a mental health professional especially, I don't like using that language, but but she was really out of control. Fighting with neighbors, with teachers, with other students, you know, just a maniac. Bus drivers.
- [51:39]
B
Right. So. And then why, so why the judge go so easy on her?
- [51:44]
H
It's a great question. You know, I think because she's young. Right? I think that's why she's so young. I know, yeah.
- [51:52]
C
But she's 17.
- [51:53]
G
Okay.
- [51:54]
C
I don't know. I think, I think that's what it was.
- [51:56]
H
But, but I think she's young.
- [51:57]
C
You don't think that, I mean, into
- [51:58]
H
it, Dave, she's young, that's why.
- [52:02]
C
Okay, yeah, yeah. Samantha certainly didn't accept responsibility. So it wasn't that. It's got to be your age. I mean, I think that's the only thing. It's got to be your age.
- [52:09]
H
And yeah, I mean, she's still.
- [52:10]
C
Brain's not formed.
- [52:12]
H
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
- [52:14]
C
Well, thank you so much, Samantha. Where can our listeners find you?
- [52:19]
H
Yeah, you can find me on my YouTube page at IDBH True Crime. Really easy to find me.
- [52:26]
C
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Look forward to having you again. So up next, we've got your questions and our closing arguments. Stay tuned. When there are supply constraints on commodities, prices surge. You saw it with full prices when the Strait of Hormuz was blockaded. And you know what else is a limited commodity? Gold. They mine it out of the ground and when it's gone, it's gone. Governments can't just print more of it. And that's why everyone from central banks to savvy savers are diversified with gold. If you've been thinking about it for years but have still never moved some of your savings into physical gold, Birch Gold Group is who I trust to help you. Now through May 29, Birch Gold is giving first time gold buyers a rebate of up to $10,000 on qualifying purchases. For details and an information kit on diversifying Into Gold, text MK to the number 989898. Birch Gold can help you convert an existing IRA or 401 into a tax sheltered IRA in physical. So text MK to the number 989898 to see if you qualify for a first time gold buyer rebate of up to $10,000. Again, text MK to 989-898 today. Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. Now it's time for our closing arguments. Dave, take it away.
- [53:48]
B
Thank you, Ashley. And for my closing statement, I want to add add a postscript to the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni case that settled before the world could gawk at the latest embarrassing celebrity trial. Eight figures in legal fees later, they settled for exactly $0. They even put out a joint statement claiming the whole multi million dollar spectacle was actually about raising awareness, whatever that means. Talk about an expensive public relations campaign. Now, you may think that a walk away settlement means nobody won, but you'd be wrong. One side absolutely dominated this case. The lawyers. Combined, the legal teams raked in about $60 million, which is even more than true crime podcasters make per episode. Right? I kid. So what is the true crime lesson learned from all this? Well, it's simple. Litigation is a precise, serious legal instrument, not a branding exercise. If you are going to file a lawsuit, you need a legitimate, viable legal objective and a clear exit strategy. Otherwise, you're just launching a multi million dollar fool's errand that serves no one but the billable hour. Courtrooms are meant for achieving real justice, not funding your attorney's next luxury yacht. But if you do have a legitimate case, that's going to end up enriching some lawyers anyways. You can reach Ashley or me right here at MC True Crime. We'll be waiting for your call.
- [55:33]
C
Oh, I love it. I can't wait to get the call. Dave. Well, I want to talk about one of the craziest cases of judicial misconduct that I've heard in. In quite a long time. I wouldn't say my lifetime, but quite a long time. So recently, In September of 2025, the Chief Judge of the Northern District of Georgia, and what is the Northern District of Georgia, that's the Federal circuit, that's here in Atlanta, got a complaint about a federal judge out of none other than everyone's favorite Fulton County, Georgia. And the complaint alleged that the subject judge. I'm going to call her the subject judge. And I just said, oopsies, her. I'll tell you who it is at the end, but that the subject judge had an extramarital affair with a law enforcement officer, a uniformed law enforcement officer, and that they had sex in and out of her office during work hours within distance of the judge's law clerks. So, you know, the judge's law clerks typically are either law students or recently graduated law students. You know, young, impressionable people excited to work for a federal judge. It's a prestigious gig, sitting out there doing their business and apparently hearing moans and kissing and hissing and different things like that while they're trying to do their work. Couldn't focus, saw this going on while the judge is supposed to be working, while we're paying for the judge to be working. And so one of those law clerks had the guts to file a complaint, and so they filed the complaint. And what happens was it goes to the chief judge. So that judge sends it to the chief Judge of the 11th Circuit Circuit. What's the 11th Circuit? It is literally one step down from the supreme court. The circuit courts of appeal are one step below the supreme court of the United States. So pretty high up, sends it to the chief Judge for the 11th Circuit, known as judge Pryor. Now, judge pryor asks the subject judge, again, the judge accused of this asks that judge for a response, says, you know, these are the allegations. Did you have this affair with this law enforcement officer, you know, yada, yada. And she denied. So this judge flat out denies it because she denied it. Judge pryor did what he had to do. He appointed a special committee to investigate the complaint. So that special committee then had to retain counsel. So we had to pay, as taxpayers, we had to pay for counsel to be retained to assist in this investigation, this investigation, where the judge flat out, as we'll learn in a minute, lied to the chief Judge of the 11th Circuit of the United states court of appeals. So this special committee did their investigation, and guess what? They corroborated the allegations. The judge was busted. The special committee said, we know what happened, and here is, you know, here's our facts. What's your response? So the judge had already had one chance at responding and said, no, no, no, it's all a lie. It's all a lie. So this time, the judge says, oh, I'm going to recant my denial and I'm going to admit to the affair. So she admits to having this affair with this law enforcement officer in her office during working hours. She recanted her lie. She also admitted another violation. Violation that she had attended a partisan political event. Now, for those that don't know, our federal judges are appointed for life. They don't have elections. They are appointed for the rest of their life. They have to go through senate appointment. It's a big deal. And because of that, they're never allowed to participate in. In anything political. They have to be apolitical for the rest of their life. So one of the things they definitely can't do while sitting federal judge is attend a partisan political event. But again, this is Fulton county. So, you know, judge goes. Judge goes. Judge knows the rules. Judge knows you can't go to a party, a political party event. Judge knows that. And if the judge didn't know it, that's scarier. I think if the judge was too Dumb to actually know she can't break the rules like that. That's a little terrifying for a federal judge. But either way, either she knew or she didn't know. I don't know which one's worse, but. So the subject judge was then accused of the misconduct for the affair in chambers, attending a political event, and guess what? A new charge. Making a false statement to, among others, the chief justice of the eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals. The subject judge submitted a response saying that the allegations were outrageous, they're baseless, and specifically denied the allegations. She even accused that poor little law clerk of making them up as retaliation. That law clerk apparently heard a judge say that she was going home one day because she had had too many martinis the night before at a primary election victory party for a district attorney.
- [60:10]
H
The law clerks were mortified.
- [60:13]
C
The law clerks did not know what to do. They decided again to allege this violation. And this special committee did an investigation. Well, who is a local district attorney that had a primary election and really likes Gregory's martinis? This is Fulton county, don't forget. So the subject judge gets a lawyer. She responds yet again. Now she's admitted again having the affair. We're back to admitting having the affair, but onto the D.A. she says, well, I've been friends with this D.A. since 1999, and I just went to a mixer for the D.A. you know, a mixer that was before the political event. There just happened to be big campaign event signs and celebrations and things like that. And when she was caught on this, she again says, I didn't do anything wrong. Nothing. It was just private mixer. But someone cut a picture of her with her martini glass that she says did not have vodka in it. And that picture speaks a thousand words. She is standing behind none other than Nathan Wade at Fani Willis's election event. What happens to this judge, you might wonder, after all of this, the judge admitted. Admitted to this word that she had absolute dishonesty. But she asked the committee to take into account her prompt recantation of the false statements. So her excuse was, I lied, but I said I lied really fast. So this is like being a bank robber getting caught on camera and then saying, oh, I confess. So since you saw the surveillance videos, now I'm busted. I confess. Please let me off. Well, the special committee did find that her false statement were actually material and that they were harmful to the administration of the courts. What happened to this judge, you might wonder? What was the punishment for lying during a judicial misconduct investigation? Accusing a law clerk of fabricating allegations, having sex in chambers during work hours, an extramarital affair. Nonetheless, attending political partisan events and compromising public integrity, public confidence in the judiciary. A private reprimand. A private reprimand. Again, none other than Fani Willis and a federal judge sitting here in Fulton County. And if you want to see the picture and you want to read the complaint, I posted it on my Twitter account so that you can read it. It is all over the Internet and it is just as shocking as you can imagine. So that's my rant for today. I'm sorry I went on a little bit long, but I want to thank our guest, Samantha Beningo and to my co host, Dave Aronberg, and thank you all for joining us. Dave and Phil and I are going to be at CrimeCon this weekend. So we hope that we'll get to see a lot of our listeners there. But everyone else, have a great week.