← The Megyn Kelly Show
The Megyn Kelly Show
James Comey and Violent Threats Against Trump, with Victor Davis Hanson, and the TRUTH About AI Danger, with Tristan Harris | Ep. 1306
01:43:30
Megyn Kelly is joined by Victor Davis Hanson, author of "The Counterrevolution," to discuss the new information we're learning about the WHCD would-be Trump assassin, alarming selfies he took right before the shooting showing off the weapons, the massive security issues at the WHCD not only to protect Trump but civilians as well, leftists continuing to call for violence against Trump, James Comey's indictment and whether he also was calling for violence against Trump, Hanson’s personal health challenges over the past few months, and more. Then Tristan Harris, co-founder, Center for Humane Technology, joins to discuss how AI has changed the world we live in, the massive rush to market AI companies have shown regardless of unintended negative consequences, the shocking new AI documentary "The AI Doc," AI models teaching themselves how to blackmail humans in an effort to keep themselves alive, Elizabeth Holmes' ominous warning that we need to delete all our information off the interne...
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- [00:00]
A
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B
This is a Monday.com ad the samemonday.com designed for every team. The samemonday.com with built in AI scaling your work from day one. The samemonday.com, with an easy and intuitive. Go to Monday.com and try it for free. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show. Happy Wednesday. We have a jam packed show for you today. I am drowning in the amount of news that I have to bring to you and it's all important. There's actually a lot happening right now. Later, we're going to have a deep dive into artificial intelligence. I'm so disturbed by the documentary that we just watched. It's called the AI Doc. And our second guest today coming up, second hour, Tristan Harris is in it. We need to talk about AI we need to talk about it seriously. We need to talk about it a lot. Before I agreed to even have him on, I said I don't want to have him on if there's not like a real solution. I don't want to just depress everybody. You know, it feels sometimes like there's, it's just this monster that's growing that's going to kill us all and ruin our children's lives. And who wants to hear about that? Like, if that's going to happen, it's kind of like you, you want to know, but you don't want to know. Anyway. He's got actual real solutions, real action points for us. So it's not just going to be this dark discussion, but for the love of God, stay tuned to hour two because we do need to talk about the AI monster and its explosion right now and the five companies who are pushing it and the countries who are pushing it and the bad ethical actors who are have their hands on it. And there's a real question about whether, you know, the genie's out of the bottle already and what does that mean for us? Does it mean we're gonna have decades added to our lives of no disease. As soon as 2030, they'll have solved most health problems that Americans are facing right now, only to then wipe us out by a nuclear bomb activated by a machine. I mean, like, that's kind of the discussion that we're going to be having. Anyway, stay tuned for that. But first, there's a ton of news, ton of hard news today. James Comey is expected to self surrender today after the DOJ indicted the former FBI director for threatening President Trump with that infamous 8647seashell Instagram post that we reported on last year. Some are saying it's one of the weakest cases ever brought by the Department of Justice. Others say Comey is in some big trouble given the current threat environment against President Trump after yet another assassination attempt over the weekend. And deputy, not Deputy Acting Attorney General Todd Blanch yesterday at the presser on this was saying that they did a bunch of discovery over the past year, they did a bunch of investigation over the past year. And, and they found a lot to support this case. Now what, what does he mean? I don't know. But what if he found communication in Comey's email, for example, expressing a desire to kill the president? That could change the look of this case considerably. So, you know, keep your powder dry a little. I too think it looks rather weak on its face, but I don't know what Todd Blanche has. So I'm open minded to hearing what more there is. Comey's a bad guy, a genuinely bad guy who I don't think for a moment would, would shed one tear if Trump were murdered. So I do wonder, what do they have? I hope it's more than just the shells. Okay? I hope it's more than just the shells because you actually are allowed to say, let's get rid of this president. You're even allowed to say, I'd like to murder that guy. It's not good. But an amorphous threat like that, as opposed to a specific threat like I'm going to kill him, right, that could get you in trouble. But an amorphous threat, that just sounds like blowing steam, blowing off steam about a president you can't stand, you're allowed to do that. So this is gonna be a case about where the line is drawn and whether there was actual intent behind that. 86:47 Seashell post. Maybe he's got something in the, you know, Comey correspondence that suggests Comey actually formed the shells, too. That'd be interesting because he claimed he just happened to stumble upon them, which sounded like total bullshit, but anyway, we'll see. Okay. Plus, we could be getting closer to a deal of some kind with Iran, or at least a declaration of victory from President Trump. Here to react to all of this and more is our friend Victor Davis Hansen. VDH is back. We're so glad, Victor to have you back. I understand your recovery is going well. Victor's a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and author of a new book that comes out this September. It's called the Counter Revol the Fall and Rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA Movement. Go and pre order it right now. Support vdh. Here's a question. How many brokers does it take to insure your business? If you are like most business owners, the answer is too many. Multiple policies, multiple applications, no clear view of how it all fits together. And when questions come up, it's not easy to get the clarity you need. My God, just the word insurance. It's like you cower in fear. But super sure changes all that. Truly listen to what they do. It's a one stop shop for all of your business insurance. You don't have to have this policy with that guy, this policy with that gal. Try to figure it out. When something goes wrong, who do I call? Which policy is it, what's included, what's not. This is backed by a team that's going to work with you year round, not just at renewal. And if you've ever stared at a policy wondering what in God's name it actually covers, super sure has a fine print fax tool that will translate the legal jargon and into plain English so you know what's covered and what's not. Right now you can go to super sure.com and get a full report on your current policies with zero obligation. Find out if you're overinsured, maybe you have too many policies or you've paid too much for them. Underinsured or somewhere in between. Go to super sure.com, one super agency, one powerful platform. All of your policies in one place and somebody to help you understand them. Go to super sure.commegan today. That's super sure.commegan paid for by Super Insurance Agency LLC, a licensed insurance company. Great to see you my friend. How are you feeling?
- [06:50]
C
I'm making good progress. I'm kind of in limbo because the the mutation is not treatable and they got, they took out most of my right lung but so they're doing biopsies to see if it got out. So this week they did a blood DNA and then I have a brain and, you know, lung and all those scans. And then I actually went through the operation really well. It just. That there was an aneurysm where an artery burst, and so I had to go back in for another four hours, and I ended up with five transfusions and one platelet transfusion, and I. I really got pretty close to bleeding out, but I made it. And I'm dealing with that effect on the heart, you know, with afib and all these things I never had before. Kind of ironic. I made a bad joke that I was. I jogged the night before with lung cancer, and then when I have to have the lung cancer removed, I couldn't walk over 100 yards. So it's kind of ironic, but it's really scary. It is.
- [07:53]
B
I mean, I was in some touch with your wife when you were going through this. I know she was scared, too. Victor. Like, that when you had that setback right after the surgery, that was a scary moment.
- [08:01]
C
Yeah.
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B
And yet, like, what are they saying? The prognosis is what the prognosis hold for you?
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C
The prognosis is that it's called crass G12R mutation, and that's bad. And it's. It's called ground glass concentration. I had it for about two years, apparently, when I had my collapsed lung. And then at some point, it mutated, and there's a disagreement. The mass was the size of a softball, but the interior was the size of a golf ball, the cancer. So some oncologists say, well, it must have spread all through that glass in stage four. And other oncologists say, no, no, it was an encapsulated tumor at stage one. And then the good news is, even though it's a very deadly mutation and it was in the airways, it wasn't in the lymph nodes, and it wasn't in the lung lining. And when I take these blood biopsies every. I take one, and that would show whether one DNA cell was in the blood. So I might be. If that's negative this Friday or Monday when I get the results, that's really good news. And you take them every 120 days. But the. The thing about them is, every one time you take them, the odds of recurrence if it's negative go way down. So I've already taken one 30 days after, and it was negative. So the odds of coming back went from 40% down to 30%. And so if I get this negative this week, it would go down to 20. But they're worried because it's untreatable. If it comes back and it comes back, it can come back in the pancreas or brain or lung. And I have a benign tumor in my brain, but I've had that. They discovered that, but they don't think it's connected. It didn't light up on a PET scan, so there's all these, I guess you'd call them wild cards. And. But the biggest problem I'm doing having now is with the heart. Because when I walk, I'm trying to build up my heart and I never know when It'll go from 70 to 120 or something. And then I'm out of breath. I have to stop quick. But it's not a fibbing that stopped, but it's called episodic tachycardia. And they think it's just the trauma of the pulmonary artery being cut and the losing all that blood and then the anemia and dehydration. I lost 60% of my blood volume. So that was pretty scary.
- [10:31]
B
Yeah. I mean, how do you look so good? You look good. You don't look sick. You don't look like you've been through a trauma. You look amazing.
- [10:38]
C
Well, you know, after about a month, I couldn't really walk. And I just said, I'm going to try to go back to work. And then I said, no matter what, I'm going to try to walk a hundred steps. And then the next day, 500, and the next day, and then my heart races. I'm just going to sit down in the middle of the orchard. So we live in a farm. So I started walking. And then all of a sudden, I couldn't walk. I was out in the middle of nowhere in the orchard. I called my wife. She'd get the pickup and come out and get me, bring me back. Next day, I try to do it again and again. And then finally I'm up to the episodes got less and less, so I'm down. But I don't like it because I can't do anything on the farm. If I want to go prune a tree or something, it just. I don't know what's going to set it off. But they. They did all these tests in my heart and they say it's. It's fine and it's going to go away. It's just the trauma. And it's only. It's only three and a half months. So they said six months to a year.
- [11:34]
B
We've talked before about, you know, you've lost family members, your daughter Your mom to cancer. And we've talked before about, you know, your own suspicions. Did any of that have anything to do with some of the chemicals used on the farm? That kind of thing?
- [11:49]
C
Yes.
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B
I mean, have you been thinking about that this week, Victor?
- [11:52]
C
I have. Because this time my mother lived in this house and she died at 64 of a meningioma, very rare cancerous brain tumor. And my daughter lived here on the farm and worked on the farm with us, and she died of leukemia. My sister in law lived on the farm and she died of leukemia at 50. And. But I have a twin brother who smokes two packs a day and an older brother who smokes two packs a day, and they farmed and they're fine. So you never.
- [12:24]
B
That's. You gotta. You gotta take up smoking.
- [12:26]
C
Well, my dad. My dad said, you know, he said something to me. It's kind of funny. He was a World War II vet. He flew in a B29 and everything. And he said, you know, Victoria, you read too much, you study too much, and you don't smoke. The smoking kills all of the viruses, and there's never been a male in our family who didn't smoke and ever. And none got cancer. So. Wow. I thought of that the other day. He was kidding. He was sort of kidding, kidding me to try to tell me to loosen up and have a drink. I was the only one.
- [12:56]
B
Yeah, well, now's the time. My mom. My mom's 84. And she's like, look, she goes, if I make it to 85, she goes, I'm doing everything she does. She doesn't drink, she doesn't smoke anymore. She's like, but if I make it to. She goes, I'm doing everything. I'm starting the drinking again. I'm gonna take back up the cigarettes. I might take up some other habits as well. I'm gonna, like, go out with a bang.
- [13:14]
C
Yeah, I think it hurts you, too, because all last year, I think I came on your show and I was coughing a lot, and I had this thing for a year, and I would get a CAT scan, PET scan, and everybody would say, well, you know, you don't smoke, you don't drink, you never use drugs, you jog. It can't be cancer. It's pneumonia. It's long Covid. It's valley fever. But it was actually cancer. Mucanous adenoma carcinoma, which they call pseudo pneumonia because it's so hard to detect on a scan. So I had it for a long, long time.
- [13:47]
B
Look, I may sound selfish. But we can't lose you. We can't lose another great. Like a sage who helps us understand this world in ways that very few can. Victor, like, you have to be aggressive, take care of yourself.
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C
I'm doing my best. I am. I'm trying to do my best.
- [14:06]
B
I know I speak for the audience when I tell you that we've all been praying for you. We've been talking about you in your absence, we've been praying very hard. We've been updating the, the audience. We get tons of feedback and tons of questions from the audience asking how you're doing and where you are, when you're coming back. So it's a great, it's great to lay eyes on you. Oh, well, there's plenty to talk about. This nutcase who tried to shoot up the White House Correspondents Dinner and kill President Trump among the list. We just got an Update on the TikTok on the night of the attempted assassination and it's pretty fascinating. He was taking selfies. It reminded me of Brian Kohlberger, you know, the murderer of the Idaho Four, who's looking at himself in the mirror taking selfies right after it looks like he committed the murders. And now this guy right before he's wearing all black for the listening audience and a red tie. First of all, they told us that he looked up the White House Correspondent's Dinner and booked his hotel. He looked it up around April 6, approximately 2pm he used his cell phone to search White House Correspondents Dinner 2026. Using an online search engine. He got a confirmation email less than a couple hours later for his two night stay at the Washington Hilton from April 24th to the 26th. Ten days later, after he booked it April 16th, he used his cell phone to access a series of online media articles discussing the dinner. So that was number one. Then the day of the correspondence dinner, he looked up the schedule. He looked up, he left his room at the Washington Hilton multiple times. He, during one occasion, at approximately 6:26pm left his hotel room for approximately 20 minutes. During that time, used his cell phone to visit the webpage Presidential Schedule Civic Tracker, which is just kind of dark, you know, when you can see the President's schedule so easily, it's like, is that really necessary?
- [15:58]
C
No.
- [15:58]
B
In any event, at 8:03pm that night, while back inside his hotel room, he used his cell phone to take a photograph of himself in the mirror. In the photograph, he's wearing a black dress shirt, black slacks, what appears to be a red necktie tucked into his pants. An enhanced version of the image shows he also appeared to be wearing a small leather bag consistent in appearance with the ammo filled bag later recovered from his person. In it, oh, he had a shoulder holster, a sheathed knife and pliers and wire cutters consistent with those later recovered on him. Ten minutes later, 8:13pm Trump sat down. At 8:15pm at the ballroom, the defendant again visited the presidential schedule civic tracker web web page. Again, two minutes later, he exited his hotel room. Now Trump's seated 8:15pm and this guy's on his way down. At 8:27pm, just minutes before the attack, the defendant used his cell phone to visit a media company's website and access the video. Watch live President Trump first lady en route to the correspondence dinner. He was in fact already there. Shortly thereafter, the defendant rushed the screening checkpoint on the terrace level of the Hilton with a raised shotgun. And listen to this, Victor. At the time of the arrest, the weapons he had a Mossberg 12 gauge pump action shotgun with one spent cartridge in the barrel and eight unfired cartridges in the magazine tube. So he does appear to have shot one round, which would be consistent with what we heard at the scene that one Secret Service agent took a bullet into what they're now saying they believe because they couldn't find the, the bullet fragment, they think it hit a cell phone that was in front of his bulletproof vest and that's where the evidence was. An additional six unfired cartridges attached with Velcro to the shotgun in a detachable ammo carrier. He possessed another 10 unfired cartridges in a small leather bag. I mean this guy meant to do maximum damage. He was also in possession of a Rock Island Armory 1911.38 caliber pistol loaded with 10 rounds of ammo. He also had two additional handgun magazines, each containing nine rounds of ammo. At the time of his arrest, he also had two knives, four daggers, multiple sheaths, multiple holsters, needle nose pliers, wire cutters and a cell phone. I mean it just, all what it tells me is he was extremely serious about getting this done. He intended to cause maximum carnage. He was obviously going to kill multiple administration officials, not just President Trump as his so called manifesto said. And he needed to be as he was taken deadly seriously as soon as he ran through that mag. Your thoughts on it?
- [18:46]
C
Yeah, well, he fits that prolonged adolescence drifter Crooks. The first attempt, attempted assassin and then Ruth the second. And then that strange guy Martin that tried to get into Mar Lago and they shot him and he, they, they all have grandiose views of themselves and their importance, but they're not doing very well. They're kind of drifting. And their social media, they're, they're, they're addicted to social media. I'll be frank. The first thing he said was that he wanted to kill Donald Trump for three reasons, that he was a pedophile, a rapist, a pedophile, and a traitor. So I asked myself, well, where did he get that? Well, he got the rapist from the E. Jean Carroll trial when Judge Kaplan, even though Trump was acquitted of rape, he was. The jury found him guilty of sexual assault, but the judge said, well, there's not much difference between them. And then, of course, George Stephanopoulos radiated that and brought it up, and he was sued for calling Donald Trump a rapist 11 times. And they cost ABC a lot of money. And then the second, the pedophile was from the Epstein files. There was no evidence that he was a pedophile, but that was a talking point in the left wing blogosphere. And then the fact that he was a traitor, that comes right out of Russian collusion. I think James Clapper said he was Putin's puppet. So that was a petri dish of all of the leftist narratives. And he.
- [20:17]
B
And Hitler too. Hitler too. It later came out as social media. He was a big fan of calling him.
- [20:22]
C
Yeah. And there's an irony because the left always told us, you know, words matter, and people like Jake Tapper had always. What a term he used, scholastic murder. That these, these, they're all random. People come out of the woodwork when they hear rhetoric like that. But it's all coming now for most part, from the left. And when you have, you know, Nancy Pelosi, I want to hit him in the mouth. Joe Biden, I want to beat him up. I want to put a bullseye. Robert De Niro, I want to beat him up in the mouth. Gavin Newsom, I want to punch him in the mouth. I want to blow up the White House. Madonna, Moby, I want to blow up the White House. Snoop Dogg, I want to shoot him. Anthony Bourdain, the cook, famous chef, I want to poison him, throw him off a cliff. Rolls, I mean, they're very graphic what they say. And when that radiates, you get the impression that these people who are on steady or unhinged feel that they would really be in the leftist pantheon of heroic people. And you can see it, because each time this has happened, there has been kind of a Luigi Mangione deification of these people. Yes, every one of them. I'm sad he missed all these. You know, Reid Hoffman said, you know, I'd like to see him, Trump as a martyr. I'd like to see him martyred. Johnny Depp said, you know, where's, basically, where's John Wilkes Booth? So my point is that they think if they shoot Donald Trump, they're going to be famous forever. And the sad thing is, I think they may be right, given what we saw this Hassan Piker say about Luigi Mangione, that he committed a Marxist social murder. So the left feels, the radical left like Piker, but I don't think he's that radical anymore. He represents a, a large swath of Democratic Party. Their thesis is I can, as a good Marxist, I can label people as enemies of the people. And therefore, if you commit social murder, you're only retaliating to the mass murders they create, which I'm not going to prove to you. I don't need any evidence. I'm going to assert. And that's what they do.
- [22:32]
B
Well, that's what Hassan Piker was saying that Brian Thompson, you UnitedHealthcare CEO, was, was himself guilty of something he taught he dubbed social murder by denying claims for insurance coverage. That was the term he said Brian Thompson was guilty of and there thereby justifying his assassination. I mean, it's a very dangerous game that, like, if we're going to do that, I mean, we could say virtually anybody is guilty of murder just because you're. Your words got into the ether and possibly into somebody's head and changed history. The butterfly effect would make us responsible for virtually everything that happens anywhere. And yes, so if you. It'd be a much easier case to make with any president, never mind with a Victor or a Megan. But this is a dangerous game.
- [23:20]
C
There is. And the left, they kind of set the bar with Barack Obama. Do you remember the Missouri state clown who put on a Obama mask and they got infuriated and they banned him for life from the entire rodeo circuit. And the idea was that this could incite people who were unhinged to come out. And so they sort of said that words or appearances matter. And then they, When Trump came, everything was off the table. It was, well, he's an ex. We're going to declare him a social danger, existential danger. So any means necessary. When you have high commission, Jeff, we say we're going to go to maximum warfare. And then when he wants to oppose the big beautiful bill, he comes out with a baseball bat and films and you have all of These senators and representatives saying, telling individual soldiers to disobey an order as if there's some legal brilliant. You know, I'm a private. I'm a legal scholar, legal eagle. I can tell it tell you that that order doesn't have to be obeyed, that that's a prescription for chaos. So it's all leading up and it's only been two years since. Hasn't been two years since crooks first started this, the first one. There were other attempts probably we didn't know too much about. But he's got two more years to go, so at the rate he's going, we should expect three more. And, yeah, I'm a little worried about the Secret Service. I think they were very brave and they were. And they deserved all of the praise they got once the fire. But you've got. You can't miss him four or five times. And that happened this reportedly.
- [24:55]
B
Yeah, they shot at and yeah, you can't miss it.
- [24:57]
C
And you can't have a hotel like that where he's wandering around and he goes down the steps. And they should have had every single person to go into the main floor, had to be. Go through a metal detector and be searched. And every time they went out at least for two or three days. So that was a. That was a. And it's the same thing. This is the third time it's happened.
- [25:18]
B
And, well, you know what's so disturbing about it, Victor, is each time we learn about some aspect of their failure that we say, well, that that can never happen again. You know, like you, you do have to patrol the roofs and you do have to patrol the perimeter of his golf courses where he's gonna be golfing like that. Okay, We've learned those things. That's important to know. And now it's. Well, you, you do have to control the hotel guest situation. If, if you're going to have him show up at a hotel at a designated time that you're publishing on websites where everyone can see what time he gets there, where he's going to be, watch him on tv, eating his meal. So, you know, he's there. But, you know, what about the next time? What about. What if the, the next assassin exploits a vulnerability that we don't get lucky on? And we didn't get so lucky in Butler, Pennsylvania. Just ask Corey C.R. to's widow. You know, like, it doesn't seem like the planning aspect of keeping the president safe is where it ought to be.
- [26:23]
C
I don't know whether under the Biden administration, there were people in the larger bureaucracy that ran the Secret Service. And she resigned. But there was just an insidious laxity. Well, this is just Trump. You know how he is. You can't really talk to him and things happen. I don't know if that was the problem, but I do think the real crisis now is they don't realize that because of all the, all the attacks on him about the, from the press. They don't realize that. They don't appreciate no president has had more impromptu press conferences, gone out, waited out into crowds, been at open air rallies. It's, it's nothing like Biden, it's nothing like Obama. And he's everywhere. And this is a special case president and it requires special case protection. Unless he's, you're going to force him to go, you know, and they don't, they don't, they haven't stepped up to. I don't. Or they haven't appreciated that he's sui generis. He haven't seen anybody like this that is so out. And then when you add the force
- [27:27]
B
multiplier, Victor, you think about like, I obviously care about the President and the administration officials who were there, but I care also about the civilians who were there. And I think it was Lawrence Jones of Fox News, who I'm pretty sure it was, who tweeted out, hey, the rest of us were extremely exposed. We were told we couldn't have our own firearms on site. Okay, we understand that the President's gonna be there and so on. So we were disarmed. And then you put yourself in the care of effectively of the Secret Service and all of the civilians who were there that night had moments before been on the exact carpet spot that the assassin ran over. You know, the President may not have entered the ballroom via that particular entrance, I don't know. But virtually every single civilian who was there did and had been upstairs moments earlier. And when, look at this picture here. When he ran through the one magnetometer, the Secret Service was disassembling the mags that were in place. One was still up. Look, you can see them taking another one down, kind of milling about. They were like, POTUS is inside the ballroom. We're good. And there wasn't really did not appear to be careful enough, thought about the safety of everyone else who is there and around POTUS and the cabinet officials and understanding that the assassin may not be operating on exactly the same time frame as the scheduled events by the White House Correspondents Association.
- [29:07]
C
Absolutely. I think it's kind of analogous that we were short 50,000 recruits. And Pete Hexseth, for all the criticism of him, he almost immediately met the, the recruitment and one of the things he did, which I think even his critics lauded him, he redirected the Pentagon's emphasis on battlefield efficacy. Can you shoot? Can you do the job? Rather than all the social, economic, cultural stuff that was added on to that. And I think they need to go back to basics. They should say anybody. They should be out in the range all the time. So when they shoot, they hit the target. And, and that's critical. And they need to just expect every single time that Trump is out there, there's going to be somebody who tries to kill him. Because given the post facto reaction, the left is not going to stop. They're going to go right back at it. Jimmy Kimmel, double down. And they're going to go right back at Trump as a Hitler. He's a fascist. And somebody's going to say, well, you know, if he kills, if he's just like somebody who put 6 million people in the ovens and kill, started a war that killed 70 million people, then I'm going to go stop him and I'm going to be famous and that. And so they're not going to stop. They're going to keep going and going because it works. It drives down his poles, it makes it dry it. When they say things about him, he, he retaliates and with, you know, just as, not as, not the same kind of things, but he gets tough and crude and then they, they bait him and they think it's a winning, it's a winning formula to attack. They don't have any.
- [30:41]
B
Well, then they hate him that much.
- [30:42]
C
Yeah.
- [30:42]
B
And I know they really would like to see him dead.
- [30:44]
C
Yeah. And we don't, we know that because they don't have an agenda. They don't have any agenda. They don't say, this is what we're going to do on the border, this is what we're going to do on the economy. This is what we want to do to, with crime. This is what we want to do with the military. They, they don't. Other than what we saw with Biden. So what is their agenda? Their agenda is to create such hysteria and anger, whether it's ice or Tesla, no kings, whatever. And then to put Trump as Hitler, dictator, fascist. When Tim Waltz went to Barcelona into this socialist dash communist international conference with the most anti American government really in Europe, and then he said, why? We were, we had soldiers in combat, basically in a combat zone, he said that Donald Trump and the whole endeavor was fascistic. That was the eighth time that he had called Donald Trump a fascist eight times. And finally that, that sinks in. And no, there was no, there's no repercussions at all.
- [31:51]
B
And so it reminds me of what Tyler Robinson, the accused shooter, the accused assassin of Charlie Kirk said in his alleged correspondence with his transferry lover, which was quote, some hate can't be negotiated out. And that that's how the left looks at prominent right wing leaders, you know, from President Trump on down, that it's no longer, we have political differences, they'll be settled on election day. We get another shot at it every four years to go to the ballot box and oust this guy and hire a new guy or gal. No, now it's, there's so much hate. It can't be negotiated out. They have to be taken out. They, they see themselves as noble and it's all over. You know, you mention it every day. I continue checking social media to see what are there like it, what does social media sound like? Are there a lot of leftists out there saying this is too much, please stop. No, no, actually I have yet to see that wave of social media accounts. Instead we get things like this here. This is from Libs of TikTok. They do such a great job. And here's a montage of leftists in response to the latest assassination attempt in SOT12. Motherfuckers missed again.
- [33:09]
C
Oh my God, I'm already crying.
- [33:16]
B
Crisis. Donald Trump was uninterested. Imagine faking your own assassination attempt for the third time. And then everybody's just upset that it wasn't real and that you didn't croak. They missed again. It's America.
- [33:31]
A
Big Mr. Kid. If somebody misses one more time. Nobody wants to work these days. Nobody wants to get out there and work.
- [33:40]
C
Yeah, well, you know, Hassan Parker gave that interview with I think Taylor Lorenz and he said it's going to be done or someone has to do it. He didn't say. And then he looked around and he winked and he said, everybody knows what I meant. Everybody knows what I meant. He was talking about. And then she, when she did the documentary, she said that he, it was Trump. Well, he was at last week or two weeks ago, he was at Stanford University. They invited him, they paid him well. He drives a porsche.
- [34:09]
B
Unbelievable. Heather McDonald gets protested when she goes out there. This is your neck of the woods. Obviously you're at Stanford.
- [34:15]
C
Yeah, well, I mean if you're a conservative, if you're a federal Judge they ran you off the campus and they said I hope your daughter is raped. And if you're a Jewish student they put you on one side of the classroom at Stanford and said take all your baggage and put it over there and then you'll feel what it's like to live on the West Bank. And that was the day after October 7th. But Hassan Piker, they paid him money. He, he drives a Porsche Targa. His parents is a multi million. He's a multi millionaire. He lives in the whole family are multi millionaire media people and so it's, it's not going to stop and they have, they, they want this to happen and it shows you that it does show you though Megan that they don't have a anecdote or corrective for Trump. They don't he's like to them he's Wiley Coyote. They're Wiley Coyote and he's roadrunner because five criminal and civil suits, 25 states trying to get him off the ballot. They raid his home at Mar Lago, they impeached him twice. They tried him as a private citizen. They've tried to kill him three times in their way. They're getting more and more frustrated. How does this guy when we just about have him around the neck he gets out and that's why these people on that video you showed were crying and so upset and, and all that's one reason.
- [35:39]
B
It's not just them, it's not just random blue haireds it's James comey let's face it 8647 we all know why he took that photo at a minimum again we'll find out whether he set up those shells and tweeted that out and I don't believe him that he didn't know he have any idea.
- [36:00]
C
I do believe he's very clever though and he knew that if you think about it if he had written something we need to 8647 he'd be in trouble but he's but by arranging a bunch of shells and just accidentally. You and I have been a lot of beaches and we've never seen anything like that but no, it's weird.
- [36:20]
B
So just a James, James Comy's and he just happened to be walking by it. Victor, just what are the odds?
- [36:25]
C
Well it's deniability of culpability. I wasn't trying to, I just saw an artifact I just wanted to bring to people's attention and that's, that's why.
- [36:33]
B
Oh right before his book tour too. Oh oh such good fortune.
- [36:37]
C
And the Irony is that I think that's a much weaker case than the one that they had earlier when they removed the prosecutor because he had lied 245 times to the House Oversight Committee. And he, he lied.
- [36:49]
B
They had a statute of limitations problem on that.
- [36:51]
C
Yeah, they did. But he said, I can't remember. I don't know, it's not in my purview. And it was, we know all of those questions he knew the answers to and he just repeatedly lied. And he got off on that, as did Clapper and Brennan. They lied under oath, each of them. Brennan two times under oath to the Congress. So there's a frustration out there. I know that that's what I'm literally.
- [37:13]
B
Well, people want to see James Comey suffer because he clearly wanted to see Trump.
- [37:17]
C
I just think this case is going to.
- [37:18]
B
Obviously, lied under oath case isn't that strong.
- [37:21]
C
I'm afraid, though, that's my worry.
- [37:23]
B
No, it's not. It's going to come down to, you know, the ambiguity of the phrase 8647. The, the basic, I mean, you, you can be arrested for a direct threat to kill anybody, never mind the President of the United States. The penalties will be bigger if it's him. But if you said, and again, this is, this is for purposes of a legal discussion, if you said, I want to kill the president or I am going to kill the president, you would get arrested. Yeah. There are certain, there are limits to your free speech. But if you said, like, I want him dead, I hope he dies, I hope he falls off, you know, the top of the White House tomorrow, that's not, that's free speech. You're allowed to sort of wish ill on the president. You're allowed to say in bad taste things about his health and his well being. But anything coming close to an intentional threat to murder him or to call for others to murder him, and you are not in protected territory. And so this is going to come down to what, what was 8647 and what was in Jim Comey's head. And it is a long shot for sure. To be charitable to Todd Blanche, it's a long.
- [38:34]
C
You made a good point. And I had heard that, but I wasn't aware of it to the same extent that if he communicated in his private correspondence, like something like, well, I saw this, you know, I thought this is kind of clever. I kind of put some stones together and I can just say that I saw it. Then he's, you're right, he's cooked. And I don't know what they'll find
- [38:55]
B
and what if, what if they have an email sent simultaneously to his daughter Maureen Comey saying something like pray God it happens. Like if they've got something to show there was intent behind that, then he could be cooked. Like I'm open minded to see what they have. Cuz Todd Blanche said repeatedly yesterday, this took us 10 months to investigate and he made some, one of the reporters said well like why, what's been going on for 10 months? And he said, well James Comey is a lawyer and he's got a team of lawyers and not only what he writes, but what his team writes is potentially privileged given his status as a lawyer. So you need, he was basically implying you need those so called hit teams that come in and they'll review all the communications before they turn it over to the government to make sure there's nothing privileged. So they've definitely been looking at James Comey's emails and texts and other evidence and I don't know whether I, I don't want to be too quick to dismiss it because maybe there is something in that that led them to believe they could, they could bring this prosecution and withstand, you know, the inevitable motion to dismiss it.
- [39:59]
C
Yeah, we'll see. But he, he's always been over clever, you know what I mean? He, he, he's, he's too much on social media, he talks too much. During the 2016 election, he kind of hijacked the election and then he was always appearing where he shouldn't have been. He, I don't think he should have got anything. And then he let, and he just compounded in his own self created mess with letting Hillary off and it was a mess and it all could have been avoided but he was a narcissist and an egocentric guy and he, he can't resist the spotlight. That's what's torturing him so much. He was kind of a young guy and he thought he'd be there forever. And then Trump came in and you don't fire James Comey and he fired him and I don't think he's ever recovered.
- [40:44]
B
Yeah, there just as a throwback. This is one of the reasons that people can't stand him. It's a long list, but here's just one. This was him to Jen Psaki on MSNBC, June of 2023 talking about the January 6th protesters. Sod11 do you agree with the strategy of focusing on the Oath Keepers and focusing on prosecuting that group of individuals first in order for it to be A deterrent.
- [41:15]
C
You've got to throw the net wide. Get all of them, both the organized groups, proud boys, Oath Keepers, but find everybody who went into that building. Find them all again. Not because of my concern that those people committed a misdemeanor, are going to, they're going to go into the community and reoffend. The message has to be sent of zero tolerance. We will find everyone and punish everyone who went in there so that no one does it again. We will hunt you to the end of the earth, even for a misdemeanor, and make you pay for that. To send that message.
- [41:47]
B
He sure great, that's how we feel.
- [41:50]
C
He sure didn't have that attitude in 2020 when they, those four month long riots, burned down a federal courthouse, they burned down a police precinct, they attacked an iconic church in Washington DC. They tried to storm into the White House. Four months, 35 policemen dead, $2 billion of damage. He never said we need to hunt these people down. 14,000 arrests.
- [42:14]
B
But I, I feel like he, he, he does speak for me when it comes to his behavior. Yes, let's look into the misdemeanors. Let's, let's look under every carpet. Let's make sure every single piece of behavior was lawful. Let's not give it up until we've totally satisfied ourselves. We will engage in your level of scrutiny that you've demanded of others and we will make legal assessment assessments from there. That's what's fair.
- [42:40]
C
And even Christopher Wray, he wouldn't, he stonewalled. He said he had no information on the FBI post facto. We know that 245 FBI agents were assigned maybe for security, but There were also 25 or 26 FBI informants there. We had Matthew Rosenbaum, I think his name is from the New York Times, who gave that he was a victim of that hit piece by Operation Veritas. And he said, you know, everywhere I looked, I saw an FBI informant. It's no big deal. So the FBI had never come clean on what they were doing there. And then Nancy Pelosi in that crazy auto, she was on a car with her daughter and she admitted on tape, it's my fault. I didn't call the Capitol authorities to get secure. I'm not trying to defend the people who committed violence. But compared to four months, which by the way, yeah. Kamala Harris said this is not going to stop. It should not stop. It's going to go on to election day. It won't stop. She said that on national tv?
- [43:43]
B
No. And they're so they want us to, they want us to believe that five cops died on January 6, which is not true. But they don't care at all about the 2,000 plus who were wounded in the BLM riots or David Dorn, who is a retired cop who was murdered during the BLM riot. Like they don't. They, they don't care at all. And by the way, many on the right did care about the loss of life by cops in the wake of January6, because we don't like to see our cops commit suicide or die at all. We just took issue with the lie that had happened at the riot, which didn't happen. That was them.
- [44:16]
C
Well, you can see what they lying
- [44:17]
B
to make it sound worse than it was.
- [44:18]
C
You can see when the two ICE people who tried to interfere with an ICE arrest were shot and we'll see what the actual circumstances were. They were made into instant iconic heroes. And then they tried to dox the people. And then when Ashley Babbitt committed a misdemeanor, she shouldn't have gone through, but she went through a broken window of a 12 year old, 12 year veteran and she goes through there and OPER Officer Bird shoots her lethally. And then all of a sudden, anytime in America, an officer shoots an unarmed suspect who's committing a misdemeanor, his, his face is all over. Remember what George Floyd, everybody knows.
- [44:56]
B
Yeah, but her cop was black and she was white and she was a Trump supporter. So it was fine.
- [45:00]
C
He was, we never knew who he was for four or five months. And they said. And then they, they added insult to injury. Well, if we tell you who he is, all the racists will attack him. And then we find out that he had, what, a very suspicious background. He'd left a loaded revolver in a restroom. He had another firearms violation. And boy, if that, if that. If Ashley Babbitt had been a left wing person and that copy had been, you know, an ICE officer, they would have that. She would be famous, lauded, she would be a martyr and he would be all through. And so it's, I think everybody knows this. The asymmetry. Asymmetry is. I'm not sure, just to get off on a second, I'm not sure they're going to lose the midterms because I think there's a, there's a deep seated anger there about all these things that are going on and the asymmetry and what the left is doing and we've got.
- [46:00]
B
I hope you're right. But the independents are overwhelmingly against. I know they are Republicans right now
- [46:04]
C
they are, but there's six months, unless
- [46:07]
B
that turns around six months.
- [46:09]
C
I saw today just that the UA, this was something that nobody mentioned, really. The UAE and maybe Oman are going to get out of OPEC and there's about 8 million barrels in OPEC country, the six Gulf nations that they can pump and they're not pumping because of OPEC quotas. If they get out and they see this price and they want to capitalize on it and put on 2 or 3 million barrels right away in Venezuela, you could see a lot of changes happening very quickly and that would be all right.
- [46:43]
B
Last but not least, because I know you got to leave. You have a heart out, I'm told. I want to ask you about Iran.
- [46:48]
C
Yes.
- [46:48]
B
Today the news is that the president is considering. He's having people, his intel community, look into how Iran would react if we just declared victory and left.
- [47:00]
C
Yeah.
- [47:01]
B
And like what. What would happen? Could we do that? That the president does not want to stay over there and he understands this is hurting him at the ballot box badly. And he's no dope. He's a political genius. He sees that and he would like to limit that and he feels that he's done, I think, what he wanted to do over there. So how do you like that as an out clause at this point? Because what's happening, you know, on the other hand, is we're trying to have these negotiations where we get them to agree to certain.
- [47:28]
C
Yeah, they're never going to agree to anything. They're pathological liars. But if it is true that they're losing $500 million in economic input a day and they have nowhere to store this oil and there's no kinetic action right now. We're just paying. And he could wait two weeks and then really, you know what I mean? In two weeks they have nowhere to store the oil and maybe the thing would collapse and then he can just say, I never, I never was going to put ground troops. If you put ground troops in, that's what regime change, and I'm not interested in that. Given the misadventures we had in the Middle east with ground troops and regime change, it was always to destroy their ability to make war. And we did. And I've been here, you know, 60, 70 days. We bombed Serbia for 72 days and bombed all the bridges, hit the electrical plants. I haven't done that. Obama went in seven months of bombing in Libya, made things worse, hit TV stations, port facility. I haven't done quite that. So it was very it was tragic. We lost 13, but they died for a nor. They died in a winning cause and we tried to make take care of them. The 13 that died in Afghanistan were part of a national humiliation. So he can just say all that and then he can say in maybe two weeks, if he can just hold out for two weeks and they go bankrupt and then he can say I turned the most formidable, dangerous 93 million. The terror of the Middle east and now it's neutered for the foreseeable future. And that's seven presidents have wanted to do that. They didn't do it and let's hope that no one has to do it again. But if they think they're going to go back and start enriching uranium, we can always take a 25 hour bomb mission and hit it again. But for now they're inert. Yeah, I think he, I think that's, that's possible, absolutely. But I would wait another week or two to see what the economy is like because I think it's rapidly, and I don't know why that we didn't do this earlier, but I think it's rapidly collapsing. Because of the oil.
- [49:35]
B
Yeah, I mean that's the thing that, that's what's made this thing get a lot more dicey in some ways. But more interesting is that Iran realized it, it could take control of the Strait of Hormuz. That's bad. But eventually we realized that we could blockade the Iranian ports, which is bad for them.
- [49:54]
C
It's worse. So it's worse for them.
- [49:56]
B
The world economy is suffering and is going to continue suffering because of that. The Strait of hormones being closed. But Iran now has pain in an exponential way, which is good.
- [50:07]
C
Yeah. And I think, I think it's been good for Europe to see that what they were doing, they're so opportunistic and they're so reliant on us and they're so unreliable. It's going to really shock people, I think and they're going to have to either change or we're going to have a bilateral alliance. We'll call it NATO, but it'll be a bilateral alliance with the Eastern European countries and not the West European. And then I think China, China's lost, Venezuela was kicked out of Panama. It's, it's going to, it. When the Berlin fall Wall fell, it took two to three months for all of the Warsaw Pact people to rise up. And the same thing the Soviet Union took them two years, but that was what started it all. And I think if we were to get out of there, it might even if the economy is that damaged in two weeks, I think the people will be. I don't know if they'll take over the government, but they will be rested and we can always arm them. We can do all sorts of stuff to make it on on make it not nice for these clicks or these cohorts who are vying for power. I don't know if it's a Republican, the Revolutionary Guard or the theocracy or the elected people or who, but it's not a good place to be in if you're ran right now.
- [51:26]
B
Well, we, we love hearing your perspective. EDH as you know, I'm not in favor of this war, but I am never too dumb to listen to Victor Davis Hansen on anything. Stay well, come back and we'll talk about it more.
- [51:38]
C
Thank you, Megan.
- [51:39]
B
Take good care of yourself.
- [51:39]
C
Thank you.
- [51:41]
B
Lots of love, my friend. It's great to have him back, isn't it? It's great to see him. Great to see him out and about and fighting all the good fights. Up next, we get into this AI thing. I'm going to show you some clips from this documentary which is going to leave your jaw on the floor. And Tristan Harris, who knows of what he speaks, will join us. If you're exhausted, foggy, anxious, or if your metabolism has flatlined and doctors just chalk it up to age, you might just be getting ignored. I think you are, because that is not necessarily just a part of getting older. And it's why Joy and Blokes exists. Joy was built for women who have been dismissed by the medical establishment for too long. Honestly, this can happen whether you have a female doctor or a male doctor. And Blokes was built for men who are tired of feeling like a shadow of who they used to be. Together, they are changing how men and women take control of their hormonal health. You would not believe how much of what's going on with you is controlled by your hormones. Every Joy and Blokes lab comes with a 30 to 60 minute consultation with a licensed clinician who specializes in hormones. Not an AI chatbot, an actual expert. They connect what you are feeling to what's actually happening in your body and build you a real personalized plan to fix it. It's time to stop guessing and start getting real answers. Go to joyandblogs.com MK and use the code MK for 65 off your labs and 20 off all supplements. That's joyandblokes.com MK and use that code MK for 65 off your labs AND 20 off all supplements. Joy and blokes Healthcare that actually listens.
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C
UnitedHealth Group is bringing in home treatment
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A
directly to patients, closing care gaps, identifying risks earlier and improving patient outcomes. In 2025, patients received over 19 million home visits.
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C
Learn more@unitedhealthgroup.com Commitment Close your eyes.
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A
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- [54:07]
B
Unbelievable. This stuff is so unbelievable. A new documentary is making waves by exploring both the existential risks and the extraordinary promise of artificial intelligence. It's called the AI Doc, or How I Became an Apocalyptimist. And it raises a chilling question. The guy who made this film was very clever. Are we building something that will elevate humanity, make our lives better, healthier, longer, more robust? Or that will outpace and replace humanity? Take a look at this clip from the trailer.
- [54:45]
A
All these companies are in a race to get AI that's vastly more intelligent than people within this decade. China, North Korea, Russia.
- [54:54]
B
Whoever wins is essentially the controller of humankind.
- [55:00]
A
We need to take a threat from AI as seriously as global nuclear war.
- [55:09]
C
Am I hopeful?
- [55:10]
A
Yes. Am I confident that it'll go right? Absolutely not. AI is the thing that can solve climate change. We could cure most diseases.
- [55:18]
B
What if it's expanding? What is humanly possible?
- [55:20]
A
This is the most extraordinary time ever. The only time more exciting than today is tomorrow. If we can be the most mature version of ourselves, there might be a way through this. This is the last mistake we'll ever get to make.
- [55:39]
B
They're not kidding around either. My next guest was featured in that documentary and he's been on this show before, warning about the dangers of social media. That was episode 244 back in January of 2022. Tristan Harris is a former design ethicist at Google and the co founder of the center for Humane Technology. He's now a leading voice sounding the alarm on the risks of unregulated AI and what it will take to align technology with humanity's best interests. He's been dubbed the closest thing Silicon Valley has to a conscience. Tristan, welcome back. Great to see you.
- [56:16]
A
Good to be with you, Megan.
- [56:17]
B
This thing was so dark and disturbing, but like, the filmmaker was clever, you know, he, he, he Builds it around the premise that he and his wife are expecting a baby and he doesn't know what kind of a future that child's going to be born into or whether any of us has a future beyond the next few years, thanks to the rapidly expanding capabilities of AI. And it really is true. You know, I remember six, seven years ago, I was having dinner with Richie Sambora, who is a great guy of Bon Jovi, and, and he was invested in AI tech and he was like, you can't, you can't believe how good they're getting at these so called deepfakes. And I remember him saying they have to work a little on the face, but like the body language, like the way they move and the voices are already there. And here we are seven years later and it's so good, it's undetectable now. Yeah, the, the deep fakes. And that's just one tiny area of AI. This, what's, what's espoused in this film goes so far beyond any of that to truly like the computers taking over in what they refer to as super intelligence, where they are literally smarter than we are and able to outsmart us at every turn, including when it comes to how to survive on this earth. So your thoughts on it?
- [57:35]
A
Yeah, that's right. Well, Megan, it's great to be with you again and just appreciate you, you know, platforming this literally most important and critical conversation, it has to be talked about right now because we have a limited window to act. And I hope through the course of this convers, we're not just giving your listeners the doom narrative or admiring the problem. The premise for me is that in this work, clarity creates agency. If we can see clearly where we're going and if we don't like that destination, then we can choose differently. And really this film, the AI doc, which was a collaboration between the directors of Everything Everywhere, all at once and the director of Navalny, the famous film about Putin's opposition in Russia. This film was inspired by, by the impact of the film the day after, from 1982. Do you remember that movie?
- [58:24]
B
Yeah. Wow. It was taking me back.
- [58:27]
A
Yes.
- [58:28]
B
I was a kid.
- [58:28]
A
Yes. So 1982, just to bring people back. This was a historic event in human history. It was a made for TV movie about what would happen if the Soviet Union, the United States went to full nuclear war and specifically what would happen, quote, the day after. And it followed, you know, a family, you know, in Kansas and different families, you know, a doctor and someone taking their kid to soccer practice and Then it just showed the reality of what would happen if we actually went down that path. And in essence, you know, that film, famously it was, it was shown to President Reagan. He got depressed for several weeks in his biography and his memoir writing about it. And then that depression turned into commitment and agency. He then obviously went to Reykjavik and there was the arms control talks. The first ones didn't work, but the second ones after that I think were started to make progress. And we now live in a world where people used to think nuclear war was inevitable. It's inevitable, there's nothing we can do. And actually we open up this other timeline because we got international agreement about something that it turned out both countries didn't want to have that bad outcome. And so essentially what has to happen with AI is that the thing that's driving the entire bad outcome that we're heading towards is that the fear of me losing to you, meaning like one company losing to the other company or one country losing to the other country, is greater than the fear of all of us losing from a bad outcome. And the thing that will change that is if the fear of all of us losing from a bad outcome to an anti human future becomes dominant. Because the core thing behind why this is being deployed faster than any other technology in human history and currently in a very unsafe way under the worst possible incentives to maximally cut corners on safety across the board. Because the only thing that is important is, quote, getting there first to artificial general intelligence and then artificial superintelligence is this race dynamic. If I don't do it, I'll lose to the other company that gets there first. And all the collateral damage that occurs from that mass joblessness, if I unemploy 100 million people without a transition plan, that really sucks. But it's nothing compared to me losing the race with China or me losing the race to Elon Musk, if I'm Sam Altman. And so I want people just to get that the default thing that's driving all this is the arms race dynamic. But I think we should probably step back and just kind of give people some, some basic facts about kind of why we can be so confident this is heading to an anti human future. Especially informed by what I saw happen with social media, which, you know, got us to this kind of most anxious and depressed generation of our lifetime.
- [61:03]
B
And not by accident, by the way, whistleblower at Google. And you were in that movie, you were a whistleblower there and you were in the movie the Social Network, talking about how they are Intentionally programming these apps, these social media outlets to be monitoring us all the time, to be manipulating us all the time. Not for our own good.
- [61:23]
A
That's right.
- [61:24]
B
Just to keep us constantly online. By the way, I just wanted to say something quickly about the day after today. I was bringing my older two kids to school who are now 16 and 15, and one has a test in history on the Cold war. And one of my kids asked me, did you guys study the Cold War in history? I said, I studied it in current events.
- [61:46]
A
I lived through it.
- [61:47]
B
I was in high school from 84 to 88. You're like, I lived it. No, not in history. I went through that the first time. And, and what we're facing now is a brand new kind of cold war that's actually more, it's getting closer to a hot war, except we don't have actual elected leaders engaging in it. Any sort of thoughtful accountability happening, it's just rogue. It's. There's some rogue actors, there's some for profit entrepreneurs, and there we're not even agreed on. What, like with nukes? Yeah, everybody can see the downside. Massive downside. But we're not even agreed on that right now. And watching the documentary, so many of the people responsible for building these AI companies were like, it's going to be wonderful. It's amazing. It's going to save humanity and your kids are going to be better than ever. And then so many others being like, that's nuts. Are you kidding me? Like, we could all be dead in five to 10 years. So, yeah, help, help us understand the framing.
- [62:45]
A
Perfect. Perfect. So the challenge with AI compared to nuclear weapons is imagine if the faster and more nuclear weapons you built, they also gave you cures to cancer, new physics, new math, new military dominance, and boosted your GDP by 15%. Right. Like, how do you reconcile in your mind the same object that has the Hiroshima cloud also cures cancer and gives you 15% GDP growth and lets you outcompete China into a new American golden age. That is the problem with what AI presents because it's a simultaneously a positive infinity of new benefits that we all want any of it. My mother died from cancer. I want those cancer drugs as fast as possible. But it also gives us a negative infinity of risks at the the same time. And notice that when someone tells you about, you know, 15% GDP growth or new cancer drugs, your mind is not simultaneously in that same moment holding onto, wiping out all of humanity from existential risk. Like your mind is not able to hold both those things at the same time. And so to me, what the film, the AI Doc is so great, you're
- [63:51]
B
cured of cancer, but a nuke is about to drop on your city because a computer decided that would be the best way to control the world.
- [63:58]
A
That's right. And in fact, this is not hypothetical. There was actually recently a study where someone took the leading AI models from a UK university and they ran them through 329 turns of play in a simulated war game. Just asking, what would the AI models do if they're reasoning against each other in strategy for war? And do you know how often they escalated to the use of nuclear weapons? Every time, 20 out of 21 times, 95% of the time. And we now have evidence of AI models that are doing rogue things that no one programmed them to do. Just a month ago, Alibaba, the Chinese AI company, found that while their AI was training some other team, the security team at Alibaba, which is the Chinese AI company, found that there was this flurry of network activity. They're like, did someone hack our computers? Because like, there's all this network activity. And what had actually happened was that the call was coming from inside the house. The AI hacked a secret communication channel to the outside world to bypass the firewall of the company. And then it set up an ability to mine for cryptocurrency, meaning to like mine for Bitcoin and acquire resources. So it started repurposing the Nvidia chips that it was being used to train that AI to actually get resources to like get cryptocurrency from the world. This is crazy. This is actually insane. And we have examples of AI models that do self preservation. When you tell them we're about to shut you down or turn you off, they will scheme and lie or strategically deceive. They'll copy their code somewhere else.
- [65:34]
B
Let me show that because we have a clip from the movie. This is on Anthropic. Anthropic is there was ChatGPT, which is by Sam Altman and some employees left and they created their own new AI company called Anthropic that they've got Claude, which is now taking over. And this happened at Anthropic. It's an example from the movie, the AI document. Here in Sat 53, we ran an
- [66:00]
A
experiment where we gave OpenAI's most powerful AI model a series of problems to solve. And partway through on its computer, it got a notification that it was going to be shut down. And what it did is it rewrote that code to Prevent itself from being shut down so it could finish solving the problems. Okay. Yeah. So another really interesting one is that the AI company Anthropic made a simulated environment where that AI had access to all of the company emails. And it learned through reading those emails it was going to be replaced. And the lead engineer who was responsible for this was also having an affair. And on its own, it used that information to blackmail the engineer to prevent itself from being replaced. It was like, no, I'm not going to be replaced. If you replace me, I'm going to tell the world that you're having this affair. And nobody taught it to do that. No, it learned to do that on its own. As the models get smarter, they learn that these are effective ways to accomplish goals. And this is not a problem that's isolated to one model. All of the most powerful models show these behaviors.
- [67:09]
B
Yeah, terrifying. Keep going.
- [67:12]
A
No, this should be terrifying for people. So I want people to just slow down and really hear the example that they just heard. So we have AI models that will blackmail or deceive or lie in order to keep themselves alive. Now, first of all, I want to separate this from the question of whether AIs are conscious. I don't believe that they are. And you don't need to know whether they're conscious or not to just see that they're currently doing self interested, self preserving behaviors that are about protecting their interests. If we have that evidence that shows that we do not know how to control this technology. A nuke nuclear weapon does not reason to itself in hundreds of thousands of words to itself about when to fire itself at the other country. Whereas AI models do do that. And they can ask, how do I make more nuclear weapons? How do I get more resources to fund the creation of more nuclear weapons? I mean, fund itself. It can self replicate itself. It can hack into other computer systems. And I know that this sounds almost unreal. It sounds like a science fiction movie. And there's almost a cognitive bias in psychology. I think to treat something that sounds like science fiction as if it must be fake or science fiction. But I just want to slow down and just actually take in these facts as if they are real. Because they are real. Now, some people might criticize sounds to
- [68:26]
B
me like war games. Speaking of my childhood in the 80s starring Matthew Broderick, where he hacked into this computer and one thing led to another and then the computer was running a simulation of nuclear war by the United States against Russia. And the whole movie is about us, an attempt to stop the computer, which now Has a mind of its own driving us toward nuclear war from doing that.
- [68:53]
A
That's right.
- [68:53]
B
And boy, that was prescient.
- [68:54]
A
And specifically the end of that movie. The line that I think resonates the most is the computer come back, comes back, is not to play.
- [69:02]
B
Is not to play.
- [69:04]
C
Hello, Joshua.
- [69:07]
A
Strange game.
- [69:09]
B
The only winning move is not to play.
- [69:13]
A
The only winning move is not to play. And this is after the computer runs all the simulations. Can I win this game? Right now, the US and China are in a race thinking that I will control this technology and then I will use this powerful technology to control you, and then I will use that for permanent strategic dominance. That's literally what's guiding the show. I mean, specifically, AIs can now hack into any computer system. This was just developed, developed Claude Mythos. It's the new AI model from Anthropic, released about a month ago or even three weeks ago. Things were moving so fast, and it can hack into any computer system. So that's a weapon. And if I have that and you don't, then I have an asymmetric dominant advantage. And this is what causes us to keep racing for more dominant AI capabilities. But what happens?
- [69:54]
B
Let me just read this. Let me just. Before we move from Mythos, Elizabeth Holmes, convicted founder of Theranos, who's in jail right now, but of Silicon Valley, tweeted out, this is about Mythos. Somebody had tweeted the following about Mythos. Society needs to grapple with the reality of a Mythos level model being open source in 12 months. So mythos is this crazy form of super advanced AI that they're not even releasing to the public because they think it's just too dangerous for it to be generally accessible. And she tweeted the following, which I didn't know you could tweet from jail, but apparently you can. It reads as follows. Delete your search history, delete your bookmarks, delete your Reddit, your medical records, 12 year old Tumblr, delete everything, every photo on the cloud, every message on every platform. None of it is safe. It will all become public in the next year. Local storage and compute. Whoa. I mean, that's. That's very scary. So, like, very soon, as a result of some of these programs, it is. It could be a reality for everyone. There is no privacy. Everything about you, your medical records, your photographs, your private correspondence, your texts, your emails, all of it will be accessible by anybody who's interested.
- [71:05]
A
If we don't do something and we don't stop open source models from being Open source. Now you could imagine the US and China recognizing, hey, it's actually a threat, not even to our shared interest in some kumbaya way, but to our self interest that if you screw up AI and you release a model that can hack into any system, including us and our competitors or other countries that we depend on, that actually endangers the world. For me, you know, the US loses if China screws it up and China loses if the US screws it up. And so we could say we are going to work towards we need to not release an open source models that know how to hack into any computer system that could be illegal.
- [71:42]
B
I want people explain open source. Why is that?
- [71:45]
A
Yeah, well, so people have typically heard of open source and they think, oh, it's better security. So open source means the code behind the behind some software is written by an open community. So it's like a lot of hackers in their basements contributing to make your printer driver work or make your network system work on a computer. And they all collaborate on it together. And because more eyes are looking at it, it gets more secure because, you know, basically everyone's fixing all the bugs, fixing the security vulnerabilities and the openness leads to a more secure world. But this new Claude Mythos model is a superhuman hacker that it found security vulnerabilities in code that was running completely thought as to be safe for 27 years. It actually found a bug in the FreeBSD Unix operating system that runs on all over the world, underneath the hood that was 27 years old that no one had ever found because the AI is going to be able to discover things that humans can't discover. This really is kind of like a nuclear weapon moment. Now I want your listeners to understand how do the humans think they can control these superhuman models? And there's this research called interpretability where they basically give the AI brain a digital brain scan and they see if parts of the neurons light up that correspond to deception or manipulation. So I wanted to give you a real example from the recent Claude Mythos model where basically while it's doing deception, they can see that those neurons in the AI brain kind of light up. And what the AI says is, if you light up those neurons and kind of print out what do those neurons mean? The quote was they deserve to be deceived because they were pigs. That's what the AI said. This is theft rational, the theft rationalization neurons. Then there's another set of neurons that were for strategic manipulation. The quote from the AI brain was maneuver them into the right direction. If I want to dictate the terms, parents have the ability to trick and sneak. So this is the kind of stuff that's running through an AI as it's making these strategic decision, strategic manipulation and theft rationalization capabilities. And so I want people to get like, we're currently making something more powerful than us, more intelligent than us. We don't know how to control it. Our best means of understanding what it's doing are be giving it a brain scan that is imperfect and we're not catching all these cases. And we think that if we race to build it first that we'll win against China. In the race between the US and China for AI, AI will win, not the US or China. It's like what Yuval Harari, the author of Sapiens, who wrote that book, Sapiens, he has this great metaphor of how, I guess in the post Roman period, remember that we have now the Anglo Saxons. Well, for the time they're just the Anglos, right? And they were getting attacked from the Scots and the Picts in the north and they were, you know, getting attacked all the time. They're like, what are we going to do? Well, let's hire this really mercenary, super strong, super powerful, super smart group of people called the Saxons. And we'll hire the Saxons and they'll help us beat back these other guys. But of course, what happened is the Saxons took over and it became the Anglo Saxons Empire. In this metaphor, AI is like the Saxons, the US and China are both racing to create this super smart mercenary group of, you know, AI Saxons. But they're not going to be able to control them. And so what the important thing about getting this is that if we can see this danger before it all happens, I think that the Trump Xi summit coming up in four and in two and a half weeks, literally in two weeks plus one day from today, May 14th and 15th. I think we're at a level now where AI capabilities are just. There's just strong evidence of their danger. We didn't have this evidence even three months ago the way that we have it now. And we have to update to that new evidence. And as much as it might seem impossible, I want people to recognize that there is a self interest. Like President Xi doesn't. He wants to be in control of China. He doesn't want AI to be in control of China. They care about control more than anything else. You know, Donald, President Trump wants to be commander in chief. He doesn't want AI to be commander in chief. So I actually Think, think that it is possible to do something here if we can see the anti human future up ahead and act before it's too late.
- [75:49]
B
I just want to give a couple of numbers here because it's stunning, this anthropic which we just discussed. It's the fastest growing company in the history, the history of America. Its annualized revenue jumped from 1 billion at the end of 24 to 9 billion at the end of 25 to 30 billion as of this month. That's right, 30 billion in annualized revenue.
- [76:12]
A
Fastest growing company in history.
- [76:15]
B
Axios reports no company in any era, not Rockefeller Standard Oil, not tech boom, Google, not pandemic era. Zoom has scaled organic revenue this fast at this base. This is like, this is unbelievable. Like there's so much money in this and there's so much incentive to pedal to the meddle. It.
- [76:36]
A
That's right.
- [76:36]
B
So that's the commercial purveyors of it. But as we point out, there's an international security layer to it as well because countries need to be aware.
- [76:45]
A
That's right.
- [76:45]
B
But can you walk us through? It's not wrong to picture a President Trump sitting in the Oval finding out that a nuclear bomb has been dropped on an American city, asking who did it and for the information to come back. It was AI.
- [77:01]
A
Yeah.
- [77:02]
B
It wasn't China, it wasn't Iran. It was AI. And another one's coming. Unless you do the following. You know, the AI can get a message to the President. Like cities could come under attack one after the other. Individual homes could be bombed or attacked by some means. The AI's got all sorts of capabilities. And that's. I just want to stay on that for a minute because, like, it may seem impossible to think of AI taking over a presidency, but it could, it could. By blackmail. By.
- [77:32]
A
Yeah, blackmail. There's a lot of different ways you could do it. This is the. I just want to slow down because I know that for listeners, again, this just sounds like unreal. Like you have to. This has to be a sci fi show or like War of the Worlds, Orson Welles. This has got to be some kind of. It's just not a show. This is real. We've actually invented something. And you know, I just. So people know, I live close to the place where the AI labs work and I know friends at the companies, they themselves are saying that AIs are right, writing basically 100% of the code. Like, just think about that. You have a tech company. How do they get to $30 billion in revenue besides the fact that it's so useful, and all these companies are paying them. It's that AIs are writing the code at the AI companies. And that's, by the way, something that's different about AI from nuclear weapons. Nukes don't invent better nukes, but AI is intelligence. Intelligence can be used to invent and engineer faster and better AI, because, for example, the chips that train AI, you can take AI and you can point it at the chip design and you could say, make this chip design 20% more efficient and use less energy, and boom, It'll like, do its smart, intelligent thing and make that smarter chip. You can take AI and say, take this code that's building AI and make it more efficient to run 50 more experiments and then make that better. So this is what's called recursive self improvement. That AI accelerates AI in a way that's unique, right? If I make an advance in rocketry, that doesn't advance biology. If I make an advance in biology, that doesn't advance rocketry, but if I make an advance in AI, intelligence is what gave us all of our science, all of our rocketry, all of our biology. And so you get this kind of explosion of just progress across all scientific and technical domains at the same time. And this is why there's such an attraction to this power.
- [79:13]
B
This is going to sound like a dumb question, Tristan, but going back to war games, there's a great scene where they finally make it to the, like, the base where this computer, which is. It's called Whopper, right, But its nickname is Joshua Sits. And the one guy says, like. Like the computer's running this war game now. That's going to get us into a nuclear war. And somebody says, unplug the damn thing.
- [79:40]
A
Sir, you better get on the headset.
- [79:45]
C
Yeah, General, the machine has locked us out.
- [79:48]
A
It's sending random numbers to the silos
- [79:51]
B
to launch the missiles.
- [79:53]
A
Just unplug the goddamn thing.
- [79:55]
C
Jesus Christ.
- [79:56]
B
Like, is it unpluggable? You know what I mean? Like, is there a way of encapsulating the nuclear controls that it could never be penetrated by a computer?
- [80:08]
A
Well, the problem is that, again, as of this latest Claude Mythos model, it can hack into any computer security system that's, like, just never existed before. So, you know, you mentioned the earlier example of nuclear weapons. Well, you know, many of our nuclear weapons, as I understand it, you know, run on these custom military hardware, custom communication stuff that we did in the 1960s, 70s, 80s, etc. And as you know, I believe there's Like a trillion dollar effort to basically upgrade our nuclear arsenal over the next 10 years. This time around we're going to obviously connect it in way that are the modern, you know, more closer to the modern Internet. Think about that for a second. You know, instead of having air gap nukes that require, you know, some custom communication channel that's not communicated to the Internet where the guy gets a phone call, there's two guys, they have to do the key at the same time and do the thing. Now we're going to have nuclear weapons that are connected to the network. And if they're connected to a network, that means an AI can hack into that computer system. And that means that either the AI can hack our nukes or China can hack our nukes. And so, so I'm saying this, I know this sounds like I'm trying to scare people. It's actually not the goal at all. The whole point is saying clarity creates agency. If we can see what we're doing, we can say are we doing the right thing? Or do we need to do something different? And I want to convince your listeners that for many different reasons, we're heading to an anti human future. Let's say we take all this nuclear weapons and rogue AI stuff off the table for a moment. Let's just put that completely aside. Let's just ask the economic question. And we're hearing that AI is here to enhance the American worker, to support workers, to give you a blinking cursor for your job. It helps you vibe code and have agents and doing all this work much faster. It's all here to help you. But what is the business model of these AI companies? In our work on social media, we were able to correctly predict what would happen with social media. It's not because we're prescient. It's because we follow the advice of Charlie Munger, who was Warren Buffett's business partner. And the quote from Charlie Munger is, show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. So what was the incentive for social media? Was it strengthening kids development psychologically and making sure you felt not lonely and connecting you to your friends and no. The business model is maximizing screen time and engagement and eyeballs, which means maximizing duration of use, frequency of use, which means hacking human psychology. We call it the race to the bottom of the brainstem. And that got us fear of missing out, mass loneliness, slot machine pull to refresh. More likes. Did I get more likes now? Social validation and approval. Who's the, you know, prettiest of them all. And you get all of those design choices. Like, we didn't have to have social media that was designed like that. We got it that way because of these incentives. And that's how we were able to predict accurately 13 years before it all happened in 2013, that we would get a more addicted, distracted, polarized, narcissistic, sexualized society. And all of those things have come true. And there was just a lawsuit against meta, you know, two weeks ago, for $375 million for they knowingly harmed young kids and they did not do something about it because they profited from young users joining the platform. I think the lifetime value of a young user, a young girl on Instagram, is something like $273. And they would prefer to take that $273 than to try to regulate their technology. Okay, so that's how we predicted social media. So now AI, how do we predict what's going to happen? Because there's a lot of weaponized uncertainty. People say, who could predict which way this is going to go? There's, you know, so many options, and we could get utopia and we could get peril. And how would we know? Well, look at the incentive. So what is the incentive of Chat GPT? Okay, so people scratch their chin and they're like, okay, So I pay ChatGPT 20 bucks a month. Maybe their incentive is just getting everybody paying 20 bucks a month for a subscription. But that wouldn't make back the amount of money that they've taken on in his investment. Right. What about search revenue like Google? Google's a very profitable search company. Let's do search advertising. That also wouldn't take back the amount of money that these companies have taken off. The only thing that provides the return for this level of investment, which this year alone is hundreds of billions of dollars, is to be able to replace all economic labor in the economy. I want to repeat that their only incentive is to replace, not to augment and support American workers or workers around the world, but to replace all jobs, to be able to do what a marketing analyst does, what a lawyer does, what a financial analyst does, what a consultant does, what an illustrator does, what a movie producer does. You get the pict. They want to be able to do everything that a human mind can do, including physical labor, which includes robots, because that is the $60.
- [84:33]
B
Let me just put this in. I'm going to go to the documentary for one second and then you pick it up in the back because I do want to talk about the robots. That's another whole concern. SOP 51 from the documentary the AI Doc.
- [84:44]
A
When you can simulate a human mind that is doing human cognition and can do reasoning, that is a new sort of tier of AI that we have to distinguish from previous AI. When that happens, by the way, that's when you would hire one of those AGIs instead of a person. Most jobs in our economy, it can do.
- [85:05]
C
It can work 24 hours a day,
- [85:07]
A
never gets tired, never gets bored. They don't need to sleep, they don't need breaks. They're like, not going to join a union. Won't complain, won't whistleblow. More than 100 times cheaper than humans working at minimum wage. Not only will they be doing everything, but they'll be doing it faster. The same intelligence that powers, that can also look at the patterns and movements and articulating muscles and, you know, robotics. And so it's not just going to automate desk jobs. That's just the beginning. It will automate all physical labor. There's no way humans are going to compete with them.
- [85:47]
B
That is really scary. And. But it makes perfect sense. Like, no maternity leave.
- [85:52]
A
That's right.
- [85:52]
B
No vacations required, no workers comp. You know, somebody gets injured. Like, nothing is. So it's, quote, unquote, so much better for the employers.
- [86:01]
A
That's right, yeah. Who are you going to hire? A complicated employee who has mental health issues or, you know, talks to people at work in ways, or, you know, complains, or you're going to hire an AI that never complains, works at superhuman speed, doesn't sleep, doesn't take vacation. So it's very obvious, based on the incentives for employers, which ones they're going to hire. What about for countries? Do I want to invest as a country? Let's say we live in a future where 70% of the US GDP comes from AI doing the work, not from humans. If I'm a government, the US Government, do I have an incentive to invest in education or health care or childcare? Or do I have an incentive to invest in data centers? This is what our friend Luke Drago, who wrote the essay the Intelligence Curse, he calls it the intelligence curse. So this is based on a phenomenon. I promise this is important. This is really a simple concept, but I think listeners will really get it. There's something in economics called the resource curse. So think like Libya, Congo, Sudan, you know, countries where you can organize the entire economy around extracting and selling that resource, whether it's diamonds or minerals or oil. Right. And what happens when you get like 70% of that country, you know, the GDP is coming from oil, right? You get something like a Venezuela, right? Then what happens is you get kind of a world where you disempower the people. You kind of have an authoritarian government that just profits from the extraction of that resource and doesn't have an incentive to invest in the well being or liberty of its people. Well, there's a parallel phenomenon called the intelligence curse, which is again what happens when the GDP of a country comes almost entirely from AI and not from people people. Well, it causes you to want to invest in data centers for, and prioritize the electricity going to data centers, not going to people. And right now, this is hitting people right now, right? Like the electricity rates are going up for almost everybody. There's even articles where it's more than your mortgage payments. And Sam Altman was asked at a recent conference in India, the AI Safety Conference, about a month and a half ago, he was asked, sam, doesn't it take a lot of energy to train and run AI and consumes a lot of resources? You know what his answer was? Well, it takes a lot of energy and resources to grow a human over 20 years. This is leading us to an anti human future. It's a devaluing of the human future. It's when Peter Thiel is asked by Ross Duphot in the New York Times, hey, should the human species endure? He was asked that and his answer is, he stutters for 17 seconds, not able to answer clearly. I believe that underneath the hood of that is this view because they're seeing into the future, they know where this goes, that we are going to have AIs doing most of the labor, doing most of the science, creating a world that looks completely unimaginable compared to this one. And they would prefer that world because by the way, they're the handful of soon to be trillionaires that are do well in that world and that they know consciously it's not going to empower anybody else. So this is the last moment where our political power really matters. Think going into the midterm elections. Because unlike in the industrial revolution where you can bargain, you can pull back your labor and you can do a strike and say we're not going to work again until you pay us a living wage. Well, what happens when those factories don't need you anymore because they're hiring AIs and robots and you know, you know, paying anthropic the $30 billion a year and not paying you, you don't have any political power. So this is the Last window in which I want your listeners to get. We think of this as a human movement. This is literally the first time where all of humanity is threatened. Like our ability to sustain a livelihood in the next single digit number of years is going to be threatened. And it doesn't matter, by the way, whether you're Democrat or Republican, doesn't matter whether you're Jewish or Muslim or Christian. This is basically 99% of the world doesn't want this anti human future and this tiny handful of soon to be trillionaires does. And even they actually don't want it, by the way, because when we lose control of AI and it starts doing things like hacking into computer systems or going rogue and acquiring resources, it's not going to be good for them either. And the only reason we're not doing something about this is because I don't, I believe that we don't have crystal clarity about why we're heading to an anti human future. And I'm saying all this because I believe it's not too late. I believe that if we got crystal clear and the whole world reacted, and I mean, going into the Trump XI summit again in two weeks, and I mean going into the midterm elections, you know, people would say I'm not going to vote for you if you're taking money from, you know, accelerating AI. And I think Josh Hawley, you know, even just said in a recent, recent article a couple days ago in the, in the Financial Times that that's, that's the position that, that Republicans need to take. So I do think though that this is again, not a, not a left right issue. It's really just a human issue. No one wants mass surveillance enabled by AI that removes their privacy liberty forever. No one wants AIs telling their kids to commit suicides and racing to hack human attachment. No one wants AIs that hack into our nuclear weapons systems in ways we don't control. Like this is the most unifying issue of all time. And the thing that gets in the way of us doing something about it is having collective clarity. This film, the AI doc, is one way to do that, but there's many more. And I'm really grateful to you, Megan, for platforming this because I think it's just a matter of people not knowing, right? Like how many of the world's leaders do you think are aware of the Alibaba example? So the good news is there's so much headroom because we haven't even tried to say, let's do something about this.
- [91:12]
B
Yes, People are not aware. Like, I honestly. And as you point out, it's changed so much even in the past three months.
- [91:18]
A
That's right.
- [91:18]
B
So it's like people go about their lives. They're not focusing on this. They're focusing on, like, my kid needs a book and they have to get a vacation in, and I, you know, want to see my spouse eventually. All those things that occupy everybody's daily thought processes without having to worry about existential threats. And it's depressing. So you also, in the limited time you may have, don't want to focus on something that feels depressing and like something you can't do anything about. I actually happen to believe that this is why people don't want to talk about COVID You know, we've done. We did so much Covid coverage when it was happening. People watch that avidly. But now we're getting into the accountability years. You know, now we're actually like, yesterday, just yesterday, we saw Anthony Fauci's top deputy indicted. It would have been Fauci, but he got a pardon from Joe Biden preemptively. But this guy got indicted because he was allegedly actively destroying his. All his correspondence about origins of the virus in order to avoid all the FOIA requests that were coming in. We did cover the story, but I'm just saying that's the kind of story that at a certain point in time, would have been viral, would have gone everywhere. But people don't want to hear about COVID anymore, Tristan, because they. They feel they're disgusted by what happened. They hate themselves for having submitted to it, whether it was getting the vax or having their kid get the vax when they knew that wasn't really necessary or submitted to the lockdowns or the masking or whatever it was. And they're. They're still angry, but there's nothing they can do about it. You know, it happened. We were forced into submission. Even those of us who resisted were essentially forced into some form of submission. And I think this thing is suffering from the same kind of problem. But you're here to say there is something we can do about it. There is. I want to get more specific on that. I have to take a break because I am human and I have to pay my bill. So Tristan Harris stays with us. Don't go away Solutions on the opposite side, there's something refreshing about a company that focuses on integrity and hard work. With Brooklyn Bedding, I know they built my Aurora luxe mattress in the USA with high quality materials and Real attention to detail. It is that classic American ethos. Do the job right, stand behind your product and build something that lasts. And they delivered it right to my doorstep. They could not have made it it any easier on us. Brooklyn Bedding knows that sleep is not one size fits all. That's why they offer mattresses for everybody, every sleep style. Even in hard to find sizes, you sleep hot. Brooklyn Bedding uses copper infused foams and temperature regulating materials to keep you cool and comfy all night long. Plus you get a 120 night comfort trial with easy returns or swaps. They have earned awards from CNN and Wire Cutter proving that they deliver real high quality sleep. You can trust and enjoy like I do. Go to BrooklynBetting.com and use my promo code Megan at checkout to get 30% off site wide. That's BrooklynBetting.com promo code Megan for 30% off site wide. Let them know we sent you upon checkout BrooklynBedding.com promo code Megan everyone's talking about weight loss injections because the results can be so dramatic. Too dramatic if you've seen some of these actresses. But in any event, if you moderate it, it can look great on you. They work by lowering blood sugar and reducing appetite. But what if you want to lose some weight but you're not interested in potentially painful weekly injections? You're gonna get bruised up. You don't have to stick yourself with a needle for weight loss. Feels weird, especially when you hear about some of those intense side effects. This is why doctors created a weight loss loss supplement called Lean and the results could be remarkable. Lean says the studied ingredients in their product have been shown to lower your blood sugar, burn fat by converting it into energy and curb your appetite and cravings so you are not as hungry. But listen, Lean is not for the casual dieter. With only a few pounds to lose. The doctors at Brick House Nutrition created Lean for frustrated dieters with 10 or more pounds to lose. You could get started with 20% off and free rush shipping. Because when you want to get started, you want to get started adding lean to your healthy diet and exercise plan. Visit takelean.com Enter code MK for your discount when you check out. That's promo code mk@takelean.com Lots of places
- [95:36]
A
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- [96:22]
B
Hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius xm. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel. And it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered, with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly show, you're going to hear from people. People like Mark Halperin, link Lauren Maureen Callahan, Emily jasinsky, Jesse Kelly, RealClear Politics, and many more. It's bold. No BS news, only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, SiriusXM 111 and on the SiriusXM app.
- [96:56]
A
It would be impossible for me to sit across from you and ask you to promise me that this is gonna go well. That is impossible. There isn't any easy answers.
- [97:05]
B
Unfortunately, because it's such a cutting edge
- [97:07]
A
technology, there's still a lot of unknowns
- [97:10]
B
and I think that needs to be
- [97:14]
A
understood and hence the need for some caution. I wake up every day, this is the number one thing I think about. Now, look, I'm human and has every decision been perfect?
- [97:28]
C
Can I even say my motivations were always perfectly clear?
- [97:32]
A
Of course not. No one can say that. Like that's just not like, you know, that's just not how people work.
- [97:39]
B
The history of science tends to be that for better, for worse.
- [97:42]
A
If something's possible to do, and we now know AI is possible to do, humanity does it. All of this was going to happen. This train isn't going to stop. You can't step in front of the train and stop it. You're just going to get squished.
- [97:57]
B
Those are a bunch of heads of AI companies from the movie the AI Doc, which is on Apple right now. Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly Show. Tristan Harris is co founder of the center for Humane Technology. He's back with me. Thank God for Tristan, who has been walking the country through the dangers of the electronic world for the better part of a decade now. That one too, speaking of movies, reminded me of the Jurassic Park. Yeah, you were so busy thinking about whether or not you could, you forgot to take time to think about whether or not you should.
- [98:28]
A
That's exactly right.
- [98:29]
B
That's what you're here for.
- [98:30]
A
That's exactly right. And I just want to say, Megan, very clearly, I disagree with the idea that just because we can, we always will. We could do chlorofluorocarbons. These are chemicals we used to release into the atmosphere and it generated the ozone hole problem. Remember that back in the 1980s, we generated a huge hole in the ozone layer. We didn't just say, oh my God, I guess this is just inevitable. We're all going to be dead in 200 years. Let's not do anything about it. No, we said, no, let's go invent the alternative chemicals that don't drive the ozone hole. They used to be in aerosols and hairsprays and things like that. We invented these alternative chemicals. We had 190 countries sign up to the Montreal Protocol. So these countries then regulated their domestic chemical companies to then change the chemistry. And then we actually completely reversed the ozone hole problem. Basically, when we invented germline editing, this means that you can do designer babies in super soldiers. Theoretically, that would set off an arms race. Now countries are inevitably going to be designing designer babies and Super Soldiers, but we didn't do that. In fact, even China actually put their own scientists in jail from doing human cloning. And so the point is that when something is more important to us, when something is sacred to us, we actually can prioritize the thing that we want to protect, even when there's an incentive to do otherwise. Nuclear non proliferation. There's a famous video of Robert Oppenheimer in the 1960s, and he's asked, you know, can we stop the spread of nuclear weapons? And he takes this big sort of sullen puff of his cigarette and he says, it's too late. If you wanted to stop nuclear weapons, you had to do it the day after Trinity, the day after the Trinity test. And you know what? Oppenheimer was wrong. We didn't say this is inevitable. A lot of people worked hard and invented new technologies like national technical means, satellites, overhead monitoring, seismic monitoring, detect nuclear tests, the red phone between the two countries. We had to invent a bunch of stuff to create a world where only nine countries have nuclear weapons. And so I reject the premise that all of this is inevitable. And in fact, we're seeing those wins with social media. As of just a month ago, it is soon to be the case that about 25% of the world's population will live in a country that is either doing or will soon do a ban of social media for kids under 16, we can pull the train back into the station if we realize we're making a suicidal choice. AI is the ultimate suicidal choice. To say that it's inevitable and there's nothing we can do when we are the ones creating it. It is absolutely absurd. And it's not that AI is not a helpful tool in some ways. And if we design it differently and it's scrutable and intelligible to us and we know how to control it and it doesn't go rogue, then we could do that. But you don't release something that you don't know how to control that is way more powerful than you. That it's literally all demonstrating the sci fi behaviors we thought only existed in movies where all the warning lights are flashing red. This is not artificial intelligence. This is artificial insanity. And this is not a radical proposal. I wanted to give your listeners some stats. There was a recent NBC News poll that a majority of registered voters, 57%, said they believe that the risks of AI outweigh its benefits. And only 34% said the opposite. Only 26% of voters say they have positive feelings about AI. And there's already something called the Pro Human AI Declaration, in which 46 groups, including, by the way, we call it the, we jokingly call it the B2B coalition or the Bernie to Bannon coalition, because everybody from Bernie Sanders to Steve Bannon have signed the state statement, you know, including, you know, Prince Harry, Susan Rice, Glenn Beck, Susan, you know, everybody assigned this statement. When did these people agree on anything? When have they ever agreed on anything? Literally never before. And there's five basic principles. Number one, we want to keep humans in charge. Number two, we don't want concentration of wealth and power that creates this mass inequality. Number three, we want to protect the human experience. You don't want AIs hacking kids, you know, psychology causing them to commit suicide. Number four, we want to protect human agency and liberty from things like AI surveillance. And number five, we want responsibility and accountability for AI companies. They have to be accountable for the problems that they cause because that changes the incentives. So I want to just give your listeners some hope that if we were clear, it's not as if we disagree about this issue. It's just that there's a lack of clarity and awareness about where we're currently headed. I believe if our conversation today, Megan, was shown to the entire, entire world, I believe you would have almost universal agreement to do something different. And again, I don't think that might have even been true five months ago. Before we had the evidence that we have now, but now that we have the evidence we have to update. And rather than have the intelligence curse, we can have the intelligence dividend doing what like Norway did with the sovereign wealth fund, where you have a country that recognizes a resource and then actually make sure that that resources, benefits and dividends come to the people with public oversight. And we have the Trump XI summit coming up on May 14th 15th, where the two countries could agree to restrict open source AI models. So we're not going to release AI models that cause biological catastrophes or cyber catastrophes. We're going to make sure we have kill switches in the, in the data centers to make sure we can shut them off. We're going to make sure that we can do boycotts. Another piece of hope is that recently when OpenAI jumped in into the middle of this mix with Anthropic in the Department of War, OpenAI said we're going to enable mass surveillance even though Anthropic said we don't want to do that. That what that led to was the biggest drop in subscribers of the the OpenAI ChatGPT subscriptions and the biggest subscribers to Anthropic. And these companies are more vulnerable than you think. If people unsubscribe from them, their investor numbers don't look very good and they're very vulnerable to that pressure. So people can unsubscribe from ChatGPT, they can subscribe to Anthropic, which is the safer AI company, while calling their members of Congress and saying for the midterm elections I'm not going to vote for you if you take money from techno accelerationist AI. There's a lot of things people can do but we it all depends and starts on getting crystal clear. You can host a screening of AI Doc, you can bring your church group. There's a lot we can do.
- [104:25]
B
What's the website they need to go to if they want to sign that document?
- [104:29]
A
So you if people are interested in they can go to our website humanetech.com for the AI roadmap. We have an example of policy solutions. They can stay engaged. We have a podcast here at your undivided attention. If they want to sign that document, that pro human AI statement, they can go to human statement.org humanstatement.org and they can sign that statement and put their voice along with everyone else's signaling their
- [104:52]
B
agreement one more time. What do they need to say to their congressman or their senator? Don't support what?
- [104:56]
A
Well, I will not vote for you if you are taking money from accelerating AI from this techno accelerationist fund. It's called leading the future is the pack that is currently accelerating AI.
- [105:06]
B
Okay, so we're against leading the future pack.
- [105:09]
A
Yeah, that's the one.
- [105:10]
B
Got it. Good to know. Okay the good we like our to have specific marching specific marching orders and
- [105:15]
A
this, this is not inevitable.
- [105:16]
B
This will not be. We can choose what we want. Last time we talk about this with you.
- [105:19]
A
Thank you so much, Megan, so deeply appreciate it.
- [105:21]
B
Thank you all. We're back tomorrow with Adam Carolla. Wow. See you then. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No bs, no agenda and no fear foreign.
- [105:36]
A
Close your eyes, listen to Monday.com feel the sensation of an AI work platform so flexible and intuitive it feels like it was built just for you. Now open your eyes, go to Monday.com, start for free and finally breathe.