Local Sheriff vs. FBI Friction Rumblings in Nancy Guthrie Case, and NEW Mystery Man Seen on Neighborhood Ring Camera | Ep. 1252

Summary

The Megyn Kelly Show – Episode 1252

Local Sheriff vs. FBI Friction Rumblings in Nancy Guthrie Case, and NEW Mystery Man Seen on Neighborhood Ring Camera
Date: February 14, 2026
Host: Megyn Kelly
Guests: James Fitzgerald (retired FBI), Maureen Callahan (retired FBI), plus later panel of law enforcement/crisis response experts

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Episode Overview

This episode is dedicated to the ongoing investigation into the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, the mother of NBC's Savannah Guthrie. As the case continues without resolution nearly two weeks after Nancy’s disappearance, Megyn Kelly and her guests analyze new developments, major investigative missteps, and an emerging turf war between the local sheriff’s department and the FBI. The conversation also covers new video leads, controversial ransom communications, and candid appraisals of law enforcement actions and media responses.

Throughout, the tone is urgent and unsparing, marked by skepticism of official claims and concern for investigative competence and media ethics.

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Main Themes

• Continued uncertainty and frustration in the Nancy Guthrie case.
• Conflicting reports, miscommunications, and mounting friction between local law enforcement and the FBI.
• Emergence of new video footage suggesting possible suspects.
• Analysis of ransom notes and media involvement, especially by TMZ.
• Broader critique of law enforcement leadership, procedural failures, and media handling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Friction Between FBI and Local Sheriff (00:58–08:55, 47:16–54:39, 60:33–75:00)

• Conflicting Sources on “Pac Man” Suspect:

  • Disagreement among media outlets about whether a man seen on camera with two backpacks is cleared.
  • Megyn notes dueling reports: “NBC… reports that law enforcement has, quote, moved on… TMZ saying that’s not true…” (04:28)
  • Former FBI agents on the panel agree: “No one is cleared in this investigation… unless someone's actually in prison, locked up… no one is going to be cleared.” (Jim Fitzgerald, 05:08)

• Diverging Investigation Styles:

  • Maureen Callahan: “More than one time I had a supervisor say, ‘hey, I need you to go over here and build a damn bridge.’ ...we have different ways of going about it... At the end of the day we share all the information in the command post.” (07:38)
  • Friction is normal, but now seems more acute.

• Turf War Intensifies:

  • FBI reportedly frustrated over the sheriff's refusal to send crucial evidence to the FBI’s Quantico lab, preferring a local Florida lab.
  • “The protocol is it belongs to the locals unless they want to give it over to the FBI or let the FBI take the lead—which he clearly doesn’t.” (Megyn, 47:16)
  • Jim Fitzgerald: “An interesting combination is alpha males, high-profile, unsolved case, and at least one elected official… it’s going to create these turf wars or at least these problems.” (50:10)

• Local Sheriff’s Leadership Challenged:

  • Former undersheriff: “The sheriff, Chris Nanos, has an exorbitant ego... he told the FBI… he doesn’t need their help.” (Rick Castigar, 70:25)
  • The friction risks investigative effectiveness and may impede resolution.

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2. Evolving Suspect Pool – New Videos & The “Porch Man” (08:55–16:16, 90:29–99:42)

• Emergence of Additional Suspicious Males on Camera:

  • New video shows a “porch man,” possibly casing other homes, bearing resemblance to the sketch artist’s rendering of Nancy’s abductor.
  • “Look at that. I mean, short of it like being vertical, this guy gave us like his own little mug shot.” (Megyn, 12:03)
  • Law enforcement panel: similarities noted (facial hair, behavior, eyes), but some feel this man seems “too skinny” compared to the suspect seen at Nancy’s.
  • The “Pac Man” suspect (from previous coverage) and this new “porch man” are compared for m.o. and physical characteristics.

• Pattern of Unusual Nocturnal Activity:

  • Several incidents show men behaving suspiciously in the neighborhood—emphasizing possible crime wave or high-risk environment in Tucson.
  • “Now we have at least two men who, one we know committed a crime, one we think looks pretty sketchy… And then we have a third person now...” (Megyn, 08:55)
  • Later, this leads to questioning whether Nancy was targeted specifically or was a victim of a random active prowler.

• Civilian & Social Media Contributions:

  • Citizens sharing Ring/Nest footage and discussing sightings have become a significant parallel investigative resource.
  • Notable contributors: “nerdy addict” (Twitter/X), posters from community forums.

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3. Forensic Sketch and Suspect Identification (16:16–34:16)

• Legendary Forensic Artist’s Involvement:

  • Lois Gibson, “Guinness World Record” forensic sketch artist, produces a facial rendering of Nancy’s abductor based solely on masked video.
  • Gibson describes her memory-jogging interview techniques: “What kind of hair did they have? …What kind of expression did he have?” (Lois Gibson, 18:14)
  • The resulting sketch is deemed “eerily similar” to the suspected porch prowler. “Pretty damn good…do they not have to seriously investigate this latest porch man?” (Megyn, 24:36)

• Limits of Forensic Artistry:

  • Panel discusses past famous sketches (Unabomber, BTK, Son of Sam): can help, but only up to a point.
  • Jim Fitzgerald: “It’s a true art…look at the basic features…don’t get thrown off…if this guy shaved…” (25:06)

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4. Issues with Ransom Communications & Media Involvement (40:58–47:16, 104:27–109:21)

• TMZ and Ransom Note Coverage:

  • “TMZ just says… received a third email from the man who claims he knows the identity of Nancy Guthrie’s [captor]… now upped his price…” (Megyn, 40:58)
  • Panel unanimously sees this as distraction and opportunism. “He’s an opportunist taking advantage of the opportunist who’s taking advantage of the abduction...” (Jim Fitzgerald, 43:18)
  • FBI and law enforcement experts clarify reward guidelines: real informants don’t need Bitcoin schemes or intermediaries.

• Authorities’ Interest in Ransom Demands:

  • Despite skepticism, Harvey Levin (TMZ) insists the FBI is “vitally interested in that ransom note.” (105:09)
  • Experts clarify: real kidnappers communicate directly, not via media, and credible proof of life has never been furnished.

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5. Investigative Missteps & Crime Scene Handling (37:16–39:49, 81:22–87:28)

• Critique of Crime Scene Release:

  • Concerns that the Guthrie home was released as a crime scene too soon.
  • “For some reason… they keep going back… personally, both of those need to be secured, taped off, nobody in and out unless it’s an investigator at this point.” (James Hamilton, 81:55)
  • Evidence preservation and chain of custody potentially compromised (e.g., clothing items left outside, public allowed on property).

• Generalized Lack of Confidence in Local Leadership:

  • “Nobody has confidence in this sheriff at this point.” (Megyn, 37:16)
  • “If you have a city council and a mayor that aren’t supportive of law enforcement going after petty crime, this is what you’re gonna get…criminals are like three-year-olds…” (Maureen Callahan, 37:21)

• Metrics of Municipal Safety Questioned:

  • Rising property crime/burglary rates flagged as a local systemic problem.

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6. Speculation on Case Trajectory & Victim Status (27:31–30:14, 101:07–103:24)

• Chances of Nancy Being Alive:

  • Strong pessimism creeps in due to: lack of proof of life, no solid suspect, no apparent motive, and time elapsed.
  • “Here we are. You know, it’s now getting extremely unlikely that Nancy is still alive…” (Megyn, 27:31)
  • Experts: “If this was a kidnapping for ransom, we would have had communication…” (James Fitzgerald, 102:18)
  • Panel agrees that hope is minimal given known facts and Nancy’s health status.

• Debate over Whether Crime Was Targeted or Random:

  • “The more these things start popping up [men caught on video], the less and less I think this was a target at Nancy Guthrie because of who Savannah is…” (James Fitzgerald, 95:54)
  • If not, raises alarms about general safety and vigilance in the neighborhood.

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7. Media Critique & Network Dynamics (110:01–end)

• Megyn’s Candid Dismissal of NBC/Today Show “Family” Narrative:

  • “It is a bunch of backstabbers over there. Nobody likes anybody.”
  • Suggests insensitivity in how Savannah’s loss is addressed internally at NBC, citing a tone-deaf social media post.
  • Critiques broader state of network TV news, audience decline, and authenticity.

• Reflection on Public Interest:

  • “The nation wants answers and it wants accountability and it wants a rescue… The more invested they get in a case, the more insistent they are on having it. And I think that’s to our credit.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Turf War:
  “An interesting combination is alpha males, high profile, unsolved case, and at least one elected official… it’s going to create these turf wars…”
  — Jim Fitzgerald (50:10)

• On Crime Scene Handling:
  “Yes…basic 101, don’t give up the scene until you absolutely need to. In this case… you don’t need to. She’s not going to be upset. She’s not there.”
  — James Fitzgerald (85:03)

• TMZ Ransom Note Seller:
  “He’s an opportunist taking advantage of the opportunist who’s taking advantage of the abduction…”
  — Jim Fitzgerald (43:18)

• Legendary Forensic Artist:
  “If they answer [about the expression], they saw the face.”
  — Lois Gibson (18:14)

• On Possible Randomness:
  “If it’s not connected…how many men do they have roaming in the middle of the night trying to break in, creepily preying on people’s porches?”
  — Megyn Kelly (33:11)

• On Law Enforcement Leadership:
  “You don’t go around beating your chest about [being a former cop]. He would have you think the FBI doesn’t have a soul that ever worked law enforcement.”
  — James Fitzgerald (72:52)

• On Hope for Nancy’s Survival:
  “We have to work this case as if she's alive. It's the only way.”
  — Maureen Callahan (28:06)

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Important Timestamps

• Conflicting Pac Man Reports / Investigation Priorities: 04:28–08:55
• New Porch Man Video Discussion: 08:55–16:16 & 92:43–99:42
• Forensic Sketch Segment: 18:14–26:52
• Ransom Note / TMZ Section: 40:58–47:16 & 104:27–109:21
• Crime Scene Mishandling: 81:22–87:28
• Panel: Is Nancy Likely Alive? 101:07–103:24
• Extended Law Enforcement Panel on Turf War: 60:33–75:00

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Conclusions & Takeaways

• The investigation flounders amid inter-agency friction, possibly hindering progress and risking the integrity of crucial evidence.
• An apparent local crime surge—suggested by multiple suspicious figures caught on home surveillance—confounds efforts to identify the specific perpetrator.
• The most publicized ransom notes are likely a sideshow rather than key to resolving the case.
• Crime scene protocol appears lacking, raising questions about leadership and preparedness at the local level.
• Experts and hosts alike view Nancy Guthrie's safe return as increasingly unlikely but maintain the imperative to proceed as if rescue is possible.
• The episode closes with Megyn Kelly’s pointed criticism of network television’s performative “family” narrative, urging viewers to value authentic empathy and vigilance over corporate PR.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone following the Nancy Guthrie case, offering informed, no-nonsense analysis and a candid look at the challenges of modern crime investigation at the intersection of local and federal law enforcement and a hyperactive media environment.

Transcript

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[Megyn Kelly]

Sxm code sxm welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show. I'm Megyn Kelly. We are broadcasting live from a remote location today as we have been yesterday and for the next few days. Away with the fam for some R and R, though not that much R and R, but in any event, happy to be with all of you and continuing our coverage of this case. I mean, to be honest, I plan on taking the day off. So I know there's some viewers who would like to hear us talk about some other news besides the Guthrie case. And we wouldn't have been doing a show at all today had it not been for this case, which people have a lot of interest in for all sorts of reasons. And we will stay on until, you know, it's obvious when it's time to move on. I mean, this is either going to become a cold case and just a missing persons case. We're going to have to turn the page or. Or they're gonna find a resolution. But we're not at either of those points yet. And next week we'll have plenty of other news as well. So in any event, I wanna bring in our all star panel. We've got James Fitzgerald and we've got Maureen o'. Connell. James is former supervisory Special agent at the FBI and the host of the Cold Red podcast. And Maureen, former FBI special agent and Co host of the Best case, Worst Case podcast and they've been our guides throughout this whole thing. One of the biggest problems in American healthcare right now is access. You usually cannot get medication until you're already sick. Health care should not only work when it's convenient for the system, it should work when people actually need it. That's where all Family pharmacy is different. They let you plan ahead by ordering prescription meds before you're sick. You order online. A licensed doctor reviews your requests and writes the prescription, and then your medication ships straight to your door. No waiting rooms, no insurance delays, no last minute scrambling. They offer antibiotics, antivirals, tamiflu, Ivermectin, and hundreds of other prescription medications. This is about access, responsibility and being prepared, giving you the ability to plan ahead. Go to allfamilypharmacy.com Megan and use the code Megan10 to get 10% off your next order. Okay, guys, couple of big developments to start with. There is dueling information on whether since our show yesterday, the FBI has, quote, moved on from. And by FBI, I mean FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Department. From Pac man, who we analyzed at length yesterday. The man who had two backpacks in a back alley a few miles away from Nancy Guthrie's case, almost at the same time of the Nancy Guthrie home invasion. And if the camera was right in the alley, put it around 1:53am Someplace around there. And of course, we're told that the doorbell was disconnected at Nancy's house at 1:47 and that someone was spotted on camera at 2:12am so the NBC News nightly program, I think it was last night. Tom Winter, who's been covering the case for them, reports that law enforcement has, quote, moved on. I think he said that that man is not a person of interest or a suspect. They've moved on. And TMZ saying that's not true, saying that their sources say, no, your information is wrong, that no one has been cleared. That was the word. They've been cleared. And Harvey says no. My FBI source tells me no one has been cleared in relation to that video. So let's just start there. What's going on there? I mean, I tried to get to the bottom of this, and basically I was directed to the Pima County Sheriff's Department. I mean, that they're the ones supposed to be running hurt on this. They're the only ones who can clear or not clear. And while the FBI may be telling Harvey he's not cleared, no one's cleared. Tom Winters seems to have Two, just law enforcement sources saying he is. So Jim, what do you think is happening here?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

No one is cleared in this investigation. Megan, at this point in time, you can talk of the inner circle of the family to guys like this who pop up, you know, days later, weeks later, a week and a half later on some kind of a video. So, you know, unless someone's actually in prison, locked up, no answer for but CCTV on him, they know where he is, no one is going to be cleared. And even if this guy is not the one, or someone is in prison and they know he didn't do the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, you know, does he know someone who did? Was he involved in some sort of co conspiratorial type thing? So I said yesterday this guy has to be ruled out before. Well, they can do other things at the same time, but he has to be ruled out before they say he's cleared. We're hearing conflicting stories. One people said, one set of people said yes, other people said no. My idea is you keep them, you know, you move them down the priority list, you put them in section, you know, C, D or E of suspects, but you still keep an eye on them to keep everything, get DNA, get fingerprints, if that's possible, and then compare it from there. But I would say if I was the investigator and Maureen can disagree with this if she wants, but this guy is still in the suspect pool, which there's too many factors that lined up when they shouldn't have lined up. Same time, same location, backpacks, all that stuff. So he has to be kept in that suspect pool. I'm not sure he's been identified or not. That would be.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I don't, I mean no one would have told Tom, I mean Tom Winter is a good reporter. No one would have said he was cleared if they hadn't identified him. I just can't believe that. But here is Harvey, who clearly does have some FBI sources. He, this here, he cites FBI, normally he just cites law enforcement, but he, his only role in this whole case has been the so called ransom notes which we know the FBI is handling quite clearly. He's got a source or sources within the FBI and this is what he said on Hannity last night. Maureen, here it is.

[James Fitzgerald]

So three, why is NBC dismissing this now that apparently they have determined that the man has been cleared in this case? Because it looks like a strange coincidence to me.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, I mean, look, I'm not going to embrace or dispute what NBC said. I can only tell you about an hour ago I called One of my sources at the FBI who was involved in this case, who said that nobody has been cleared in connection with the video. That doesn't mean they're implicated either. But they said they're looking at everything, including this. So I'm getting different information from the FBI.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so what do you make of it, Maureen?

[Maureen Callahan]

I think that in the bureau, we're doing different things. And, you know, Fitz has talked at length about the number of different investigations in all these different silos that are happening simultaneously, including the sheriff's department. Our team is just not going to give up, especially like the cast team, the cellular analysis team and others. We are just not going to give up until we check every single solitary box that we check. And for two different agencies to have two different ways of going about things is totally natural. You're always going to have hiccups, you're always going to have issues among personnel. But that's where leadership comes in if you're a good leader. More than one time I had a supervisor say, hey, I need you to go over here and build a damn bridge. And I don't care what you have to do to build it, Build it. Because we have whatever the situation is at hand, and here the situation obviously is an 84 year old woman. So we have different ways of going about it. We're not going to tell them how to handle their business. They're not, they, they're not going to be telling us how to handle ours. And then at the end of the day, we just share every. Or in a, in a, you know, really good situation, we're going to share all the information and we're going to do it in the command post and we're going to say this is what we found. This is.

[Megyn Kelly]

Actually, with respect to this guy, though, I think we're, we're, it's fair to say he's not a great lead. No one's considering him their hottest lead right now. Otherwise the messaging overall would be different. And so that's disturbing because now we have at least two men who, one we know committed a crime, one we think looks pretty sketchy with the double backpack in the alley in the middle of the night, trying to get through some gate. Doesn't exactly look like, you know, he's working on his dissertation. So I'm not sure what's happening there in Tucson. And then we have a third person now another video has emerged and we're gonna show that today of yet another guy. This guy is on a porch. This again comes from one of the ring camera forums are in and around Tucson. Like, people talk and they link their ring cameras and they see it, talk about what they've seen on there. Now, look at this guy. He was all over this woman's porch in the middle of the night. Look at him, you guys. He's got the dark mustache. He's got the dark. The soul patch into a beard underneath his chin. He's got pretty distinguished eyebrows. Now, unfortunately, he is also kind of skinny. In my view. That's a distinction from the man who was on Nancy Guthrie's porch. You can tell he sort of knows about the ring camera here himself. But look at that. Before he manages to cover it up or do whatever he did to it. Boy, oh, boy, you have a pretty good headshot of him. So, Jim, there is a striking similarity between this guy and his face, at least, and what we think is behind that masked man on Nancy's porch.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

And once again, as I've said about the last guy we showed and the guy we. The same guy we talked about yesterday, by the way, Maureen and I came up with the name Tupac for him.

[Megyn Kelly]

This latest guy?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

No, no, the guy from yesterday.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, Pac Man.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, Tupac.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Anyway, but this guy. Yeah, there are some similarities, certainly through the eye Hol. They've got to follow up on this. I would want to know how far away from Nancy's house, the exact night, the same or in the time of day. And perhaps if any other ring cameras pick this guy up along the way. He's certainly acting suspicious, like he doesn't belong there.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, there's no way.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Of course not. I mean, unless it's an ex girlfriend or something. We just don't know that. But I'm sure the ex girlfriend wouldn't be putting this thing out unless you wanted to, you know, upset her ex boyfriend. So he has to be looked into facial recognition. Local sheriff deputies are going to know this guy. Most likely someone will recognize him and say, hey, who is he? If he's just a normal, you know, you know, street guy doing his thing, that's one. That's one thing. But if he's. Obviously, if he's there for some other reason, that has to be determined. And if he never shows up and turns himself in, that's a clue, too. So we have to get these guys identified as the bottom line and maybe just move on from there. But without knowing who they are, their names, or where exactly they were, you know, at 147 or so that Sunday morning, they got to keep him in.

[Megyn Kelly]

The suspect we don't know, but somebody knows. Here's the information. The original poster of the video goes by Keen Divine Online and this was originally posted. It was dated January 23rd in the last month from the neighbors like Ring camera app not far from Nancy. Then our friend, nerdy addict on X, he reposted it, which is where I saw it this morning. The man showed up on someone's porch, he said, around 3:30am and then returned again at 5am prompting a concerned ring user to post about it on the neighbor app. This home is roughly six miles south of Nancy Guthrie's house. Look at that. I mean, short of it like being vertical, this guy gave us like his own little mug shot. I mean somebody should be looking into him for what, if anything, may have gone missing on that porch. At a minimum, the link that the neighbor who posted it on the neighborsring.com that post says this guy appeared in the front yard around 3:30am then returned around 5:00am My dogs went crazy barking and thankfully spooked him away. I didn't answer the door. Anyone else see him in the area of 6th between Campbell and Tucson Boulevard? He's got on a light color now. Moving on to just what we see in the video for listening audience. He has dark hair, dark facial hair, a mustache, the sole patch underneath his bottom lip. He approaches the doorway, appears to be carrying a light colored sweatshirt or jacket. He sort of oddly hunches over, we think probably trying to avoid detection on the camera, which failed with his rear end to the camera. But I mean he's caught like his whole face is on there. He shuffles to the side, appears to try to block the camera unsuccessfully. You see his entire face. He does have more rounded eyes and it looks a little bit like he has something on his neck like a tattoo. It's hard to see. And he looks Hispanic to me. You can't really tell in this black and white video for sure, but I don't know. To me, still he seems too skinny. The guy who was at Nancy's for sure to me looks slightly huskier than this guy and huskier than Tupac. And now let's see. Yes, this is somebody on the nerdy attic thread, Chapa Jones points out. Notice how he uses the same hand to block the camera, then almost seemingly instinctively does the same little crouch down to the left motion as the abductor or as the mask guy. As Tupac. He's saying as Tupac does in the video. It's like he's reaching for something that isn't there a lot of speculation about whether this is the same guy? Let me just. I mean, any thoughts on all of that? Because this is somebody who was in the area. He came back an hour and a half later. I mean, this is very suspicious. And by the way, we think Nancy's abductor may have come back. You know, the. He approached that door more than once. We at least think that. Cause he didn't have the backpack on in that one shot. Maureen.

[Maureen Callahan]

Right. I think you're right about this guy. He's got those large eyes and he's got those eyebrows that are perfectly arched at the bottom. And he's got the right facial hair around his mouth. I wish I could see the mouth.

[Megyn Kelly]

A little bit better because the perpetrator at Nancy's house has thick lips that.

[Maureen Callahan]

Were perfectly calm the whole time. I mean, there are people that can't pick up a plate or turn a doorknob without making some sort of, you know, tightening up their face in some way, shape or form. But this, that person on Nancy's porch just was calm as a cucumber the whole time. I do see a similarity, as you pointed out, about how calm this person is. This new video, the way he just saunters around and he's hunched over. He seems to be a bit taller, and I would degree a bit thinner. But we don't know that right now. Maybe we can get that team out on the front porch to measure all that, but I don't see this person standing up straight. Did the. Does it say or did it mention at all if this person in this newest video was seen at other houses in the area or just that one.

[Megyn Kelly]

Particular did not say that. And I mean, one notable distinction is he did not wear a ski mask. So if that was a crime, unlike Tupac or Pac man, who was just sort of. Who looked like he had just committed a crime. This is just my own supposition, or might be about to. So. And was in an area where the crime didn't appear to be happening. It seemed to be more like where he was stashing something. Could be totally reasonable explanation for his behavior. Should note that for the record, this guy was in the midst of something that looked sketchy, like on the porch. And he was not wearing the face mask, unlike Nancy's abductor, who did have the space, the face mask. But this is where I want to bring in the latest sketch from this world famous sketch artist, you guys, because I'm holding your head and I'll put it back on the board too, when we get to it. The picture of porch man. Okay, the new porch man Unmasked porch man. There's a very famous forensic artist named Lois Gibson, and she's now in her 70s. She's retired Houston PD forensic artist, and she is the forensic artist. So you are the victim of crime. You go in, you speak with Lois about what you saw, try to remember what he looked like, and she can translate your memory into a picture. She actually holds the Guinness World Record for most successful forensic artist. On her website, she credits her near death experience as the victim of a serial rapist slash killer as the reason she's so passionate about catching criminals. She's got a very interesting personal story, and her website states that her sketches have helped identify more than 751 criminals. So this woman's pretty badass. Now, she talked with the Guinness Book of World Records when she was honored about how she helps crime victims remember faces. Because she said, so many of them will come in and say, I didn't see the face. I don't know. And just listen to Lois here.

[Lois Gibson]

I've had witnesses that were screaming, I never saw the face. They scream, they never saw the face. Well, here's two tricks. Number one is you ask them, what kind of hair did they have? And everybody remembers hair. I mean, human beings are obsessed with hair. That's why high school is so hard. And then the other trick you use, if they are sure, they say, no, I know. Never saw the face. As you talk about something else, you become very nice to them and you ponder the character of the person that attacked them. And then you say, what kind of expression did he have? If they answer that they saw the face.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's very clever, right? Yeah, I like her approach. Yeah, her whole demeanor is good. So she took a shot at coming up with a sketch based on Nancy's abductor, based on the mask. Like, she took a look at his masked face. And here it is for the listening audience. It looks like a Hispanic man. He looks, forgive me, kind of handsome. A good head of hair. The black mustache sort of right down into a goatee that doesn't have hair all out throughout the chin, just a line of it going down the sides of his little mouth and down into like a devil beard with the soul patch connected with a little devil beard, but not a pointed beard. He has a nice nose. He's got a little age on his face. I'd say this man here is late 30s, and he's got the eyes that you see in the actual photo from Nancy's ring cam and nest cam. In that the sides of the eyes, the outside end of the eyes go maybe ever so slightly upward. You know, they tilt almost a little bit upward at this, at the outside. There's no hood on those eyelids. This guy does not need the plastic surgery that gets rid of the upper eyelid. And he, we were told yesterday by law enforcement, FBI that's what they were doing on Nancy's porch with that tent as Jim and Maureen said they were figuring out how tall the perp was. And they now said 59 to 5 10. So this guy doesn't look particularly large in stature in the way she's showing him in her sketch that she came up with. And just before I get it to you guys to weigh in on, I'm going to give you one more thing on Lois Gibson. She solved all these cases or helped solve. And one of the best was this case of a non fatal shooting of a copy of named Officer Paul Deason. She tells the story, we actually pulled it. This is again in her interview with the Guinness. But who knew the Guinness Book of World Records was doing on camera interviews? By the way, she tells the story about how she helped catch Officer Paul Deason's shooter. Watch this.

[Lois Gibson]

So I had an officer that was shot in the head and shot in the back and run over and drug under a car. Officer Paul Deason was patrolling one night and he didn't run. Realize the guy that he stopped to just give a regular ticket was an escape convict whose name was Donald Eugene Dutton. So Don Dutton, as soon as he gets stopped by Paul Deason, he jumps out of his car and he shoots Paul in the head and in the back. Paul twirls around and falls down unconscious on the ground. So Don Dutton got back in the car and on purpose ran over Paul. Officer Deason and it drug him down the street about 6, 60ft. So Paul is so tough he gets up and walks back to his radio and calls in his own assist and was semi unconscious. And he told me I didn't remember his face, I didn't see his face, I only saw the flash of the gun. So I talked about other things and said, Paul, you're gonna live, you're gonna be okay. And I said what kind of expression did he have? And I'll never forget he said he looked like a shark, like he didn't care about anything at all. And inside my mind I'm going yee haw. Because that means he remembered the face. Anyway, Officer Deason swears He doesn't remember doing the sketch with me because I talked to him years later and I've got it hanging on my wall. They release the sketch three days later. Don Dutton was caught trying to shoplift a chainsaw from a Sears. When he was arrested for the shoplifting incident, two of the guys at the jail thought he looked like my sketch. So they held an in hospital room video lineup for Paul Deason, and he picked him out. And then they went to the parking lot of the shoplifting scene, and they found a car with pieces of Paul's skin and uniform hanging from the undercarriage. So he for sure did it. And I went to trial and he got life in prison. And Paul reached over across the bench and kiss me on the cheek.

[Megyn Kelly]

Incredible story. And the listening audience. Her sketch of the perp there, Don, is identical. Guys, look at that. Look at that. It's as if she was working off of the photograph of this man. But when she drew that sketch on the left, she had never seen his face. She had a cop who didn't think he had seen his face, a cop who'd suffered massive trauma. So you'd have to really question whether he remembered anything you could be relied on for a description. It is as if she drew the photograph. So we do need to take Lois seriously. When she puts this sketch together and says, I took a shot and here's what she wrote on X. I guessed at the parts of the face covered with the ski mask on this, this Nancy Guthrie kidnapping suspect. I used the surveillance photo shown. I spent 43 years at the job trying to help detectives with similar photo. Only things somewhat sure are eyes and part of lips, mustache. I'll take the hit if I'm drastically wrong. Don't criticize. Do your own. So Lois is like, she's not taking guff from anybody. She's throwing down. It was a bold thing for her to do because she knows she could be wrong. I take her very seriously. And just not for nothing, but let's just compare her sketch to porch man from last night.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Something's wrong.

[Megyn Kelly]

Pretty good. I mean, it's pretty damn good. I got to say, for listening audience, it's eerily similar. Like, do they not have to seriously investigate this latest porch man, Jim?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Well, I'd be curious if Lois saw this latest porch man, as we'll call him. I don't think so, from what you said.

[Megyn Kelly]

And no, because this came out yesterday. And this latest guy, this, this, this can't hit today.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Fine. Well, you're not going to hear Jim Fitzgerald on Megan Kelly show say, don't incorporate this sketch into the investigation. This is obviously a. A positive lead. And, and I, by the way, it's refreshing to see sketch artists who actually draw their composite sketches as opposed to using software. The software is okay, but I really like seeing the artists. It's a. It's a. It's a true art not to use that word over again. Lots and lots of practices needed. You have to be a very good listener. You have to know how to interact with people. Obviously, she's not doing that in this case. So I would say very much this. This sketch is worth putting out. I will add this caveat, though, and I put some of these pointers out a few days ago with you, Megan. It's a. This guy may have been changed, may have changed his identity since. Certainly since the induction itself, but certainly since the video went out, even with the. With the skull mask on. So look at the base. I would tell the public, look at the basic features in this composite sketch, but don't get thrown off, you know, without the goatee, mustache, whatever. But just think that this guy have it before, if he wore this most of his life, whatever, or certainly in the last few years, all of a sudden, it came off in the last week or so. Call the FBI tip line.

[Megyn Kelly]

Red alert. I mean, Maureen, this woman's got a lifetime of figuring out what does someone look like without being shown what they look like by just being given a few clues, a few remembrances. And here, I mean, I would argue that the face masked subject is probably even easier to work off of than someone's memory because you can see things like face shape and some facial hair. And the eyes are. The eyes are everything, right?

[Maureen Callahan]

But if the face mask is tight, it can smash down the nose considerably. But I'm not going to argue with this lady either. I mean, she's. She's legit. She's done the job. She's succeeded at it over and over and over. So. But I would agree with Fitz that let. Let's not limit our imaginations to what this person will or will not look like. They'll definitely be on edge. They're going to be, you know, they're going to be freaking out. But this whole where we are now is just like another dip or rise in this roller coaster called the Nancy Guthrie case. This is just unprecedented.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's sad because we're here. We are. You know, it's now getting extremely unlikely that Nancy is still alive because the family told us she can't survive without her critical meds. And now it's possible they just said that in order to engender sympathy with the kidnapper, like, this is about to turn into a murder, in case you didn't know that or didn't plan that. But here we are almost two weeks later, and we still don't have her. And they said they'd been checking the hospitals to see if anybody had like, popped in to try to get meds. And at least the initial surge suggested no. Go ahead, Maury.

[Maureen Callahan]

With regard to the meds, my mother in law was put on hospice because they were. She. It was during COVID and she was in assisted living. And they said, we're taking her off all of her meds. Meds for whatever reason. And we don't expect her to last long. We don't think she can last long without all this medication, heart medication, everything, right? They took her off the meds. She lasted another couple years, and she felt better than she felt while she was on the meds. So that gives me a little bit of hope. We have to work this case. Law enforcement has to work this case like she's alive. It's the only way to work this. And that's why tensions run high. That's why the stakes are so high, is because everyone's trying to believe she's gonna be a. She's gonna come home.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I mean, Jim, you know as well as I do that these sketches, they. They can be really good. I mean, they can be great like Lois. They can be not as great. I mean, the Unabomber sketch is the most famous or infamous sketch in the world. Everybody knew the Unabomber by his police sketch for the vast. But I bet, in fact, when you say Unabomber, I think people think of the police sketch more than they think of the actual image of Ted Kaczynski. Once you guys got him, I can't really look. I'm looking at it now. Can I really say this sketch artist nailed Ted Kaczynski? I don't know. I mean, like, you know, it shows him with the hood, the hoodie and the sunglasses. And then you see him later with his crazy mane of hair and his crazy beard. I'm not sure there have been others. There was one. The Night Stalker, a serial killer in San Francisco Bay Area, Louisiana. April 84 through August of 85. He killed at least 15 people. We're showing his sketch on the board right now. That's not bad. That one's not bad at all. Police had released one of these to the media, and he was caught later. But that one's not bad. The one of Dennis Raider, btk. I don't know. You tell me what you think.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

It's not going to identify him with his family or friends. Unfortunately, you could rule some people out. It'll be tough to rule someone in based on that composite right there, but they try.

[Megyn Kelly]

Let me show you one other. Here's Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, who terrified us all in 1977. One year in New York City. And let me tell you, growing up in upstate New York during that time, everybody knew who Son of Sam was. This one actually got a lot of criticism after he was caught because they ripped on the sketch artist. I think it's actually pretty good not knowing, you know, for somebody who's never seen him before. But the face is a lot thinner than Berkowitz really was. Like, Berkowitz was fat. He was kind of chubby fat.

[Maureen Callahan]

And he had that receding hairline that you don't. You know this. The sketch just looks like some guy with perfect hair versus.

[Megyn Kelly]

And the sketch shows a nose that looks like. I don't know, it's like more wide at the bottom with wider nostrils and a thinner bridge. And Berkowitz's nose was. It looks more Italian to me. Like, it doesn't look the same down at the bottom. And the lips don't look the same. I mean, bears a resemblance, I think it's fair to say, but. So I don't know, like they're hit or miss, basically.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

But let me add here, all this stuff is good and important, but this opens up another door for us that I was hesitant to get into for the last week or so. I think we touched on it yesterday. Why is this guy now on the porch of someone else a week before or so, five miles away? And what is the problem with that? And was this a mission oriented project, which I thought it was all along, to kidnap Mrs. Guthrie? And we'll rule out Tupac from last night. But this guy does look good. Is this now a random sort of act of violence, an abduction there and then hope that even strengthens more now that the kidnapping part and raising the money for ransom is even more specious and not connected at all to the actual abduction. So why is this guy, a week beforehand going on someone else's? That's why I asked yesterday. Was the address very similar or one block away? The police go to wrong houses sometimes when they're doing search warrants, and that's a bad thing. And FBI has done it too. So this just opens up this other door. I hate to use the word meaningless, but, like, almost motiveless. And everything we put into this, all my experience. Maureens, could this just be some rando walking down the street? Why he puts on the mask, you know, for. For Nancy's abduction and not a week before? Because maybe he did this surveillance before, looked in the window, hey, there's this old lady by herself. I see a camera. So if this is directed to kidnap her, why go to some other place a week before? That's what I'm trying to reconcile in my head. Unless the guy is not connected at all. But we have to figure out who this guy was from this latest video and figure out his name.

[Megyn Kelly]

If it's not connected, I think it's safe to say we should not move to Tucson. Like, how many men do they have roaming in the middle of the night trying to break in, creepily preying on people's porches, possibly abducting women from their beds? Like, I didn't know that Tucson was such a hotbed of criminality, but it's kind of disturbing. Maureen.

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, he's got something in his hands. Fitz, what would you say to the possibility that maybe he was going around as part of his pre incident work and trying to get clothing from people that had someone else's DNA all the way? You know, just. That's.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I mean, I can't rule that out. But it's, it's a brief. I don't think this guy is as bright as some people are giving him credit for. I mean, again, it's a successful abduction. We have to give this guy credit for that so far. But is it all by happenstance, by Fluke and some mistakes made early on by the investigators?

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, let me give you one other. I have another criminal for you from the Tucson area who's on camera. This one is a peeping Tom, and I believe this is from December. This is a local couple realized that they live in, like, an apartment complex, it looks like. And they look at this guy, he's wearing a reflective vest. It's almost like he wants to be seen for the listening audience. He's got reflections, like the stripes all over his shirt. And the couple that is, is, has been spied on is now filming him. I don't know if it's with their nest camera or their ring camera or they actually just did it, but he's going up on his tiptoes and he's holding his phone in front of a high up window. The couple spoke to the local media saying that's a bathroom window and that he has been or somebody had been spying through that window for some time.

[Maureen Callahan]

How old that female victim was in that.

[Megyn Kelly]

She's not. She's young. She's not old. Which is the distinction here. I mean I think because it's like if you're peeping tom and you want to look into the windows of young women in their bathrooms and this woman is young, she looks like maybe young 30s to me. That doesn't necessarily put you on the line for abducting an 84 year old in the middle of the night. But I am just saying like this is. Tucson's got a crime problem. Maybe it's every city that has all this stuff on camera. But this one happened, the one that we're showing you the video of happened December 18, 2025. He was spotted peeping into apartments near Cortaro farms in Thornydale and Pima county. I don't know where that is in relation to Nancy. Actually I do. It's 9.3 miles west of Nancy's house. My crack team look that up. But this man is 6 foot 3 to 6 foot 4 and has a different. So it's not our guy. Because the FBI, they wouldn't be off by that many inches in estimating who took Nancy. And yeah, the couple was reporting that they, they saw him looking into one of their neighbor's windows as well. This wasn't the first time. They say that. The estimated population in Tucson for at least 2024. The most recent we have is 554,000. This they had about 2200. No, they had 2,084 burglaries in 2024, which is 401 burglaries per every 100,000 residents. I don't know how if that's. That seems high to me. That's high. But perhaps this is like. I don't know, like if this were the case, is it like Tucson's forgotten how to investigate these or what? Because nobody has confidence in this sheriff at this point. And I would think this guy would say I've been around the block. I know how to investigate a break in. I've done all the things I need to do. There was no problem with me turning over the crime scene when I did. But instead he's been kind of like okay, if there's someone to blame, I'll take the blame. It doesn't seem like they're very good at investigating so far.

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, if you Have a city council. Oh, go ahead, Fitz.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

No, you go and then I'll pick up.

[Maureen Callahan]

If you have a city council and a mayor that aren't supportive of law enforcement going after any kind of petty crime, this is exactly what you're going to get. It's like a bunch of three year olds. Criminals are like three year olds. If you let them get away with anything, they're going to get away with everything.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, that's clearly what's happening. And I don't know if it was any accident that, you know, this guy thought he could get away with it on Nancy Guthrie's doorstop or breaking into her house because maybe he's in this crime world, Fitz, to your point. And like he's like, everyone's getting away with it. You know, I can get away with it too. And then things went wrong in there and it just turned into. Now I gotta get rid of the evidence of what I did. But wouldn't there be something stolen out of the house if that were the case?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Absolutely. There's always a motive for a crime. I mentioned your program the other day, Megan, about the double homicide in. In Vermont of two professors at a Dartmouth college. My profile was initially off. We thought it was someone they knew because the re. Family said nothing was stolen out of the house. I told you later, two teenage boys were. Boys were arrested. They stabbed both parties to death and they said nothing was stolen. And then we said if someone. They know the guy was in business with someone in South America and maybe there was an affair or something like that, or a former student didn't like the grades they got. Well, it turns out four days later they. The daughters reported cash was stolen from the house. Somehow the daughters knew where cash was kept. That changed everything. That was then the crime scene became a theft, a robbery, a burglary. They were allowed into the house. They pretend they were taken survey. So there have been some problems with this investigation if it turns out that there are some missing items. But you're not going to steal missing items. And the person who lives there, you may kill the person in there if they see you because they're not going to talk when they're dead. If they somehow have ID but you're. Or identification, but you're wearing a mask to begin with. So the purpose of this. Whatever this break in, whatever this break in was, it doesn't seem to be something was stolen. Unless there's something the family is not telling us about at all. And then for some reason, mom slash Nancy had to come along at the same time. So, no. This. The mission had to be to abduct this woman. Was she the specific one? Could it have been anyone? That's what we still have to ask ourselves.

[Megyn Kelly]

It just seems so unlikely that it's like, oh, and they just happened to get Savannah Guthrie's mother, of all people.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Right.

[James Fitzgerald]

Right.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, and why don't.

[Megyn Kelly]

Here.

[Maureen Callahan]

I'm here to rob the house. I got a great idea. Why don't you just come with me? So get dressed.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah.

[Maureen Callahan]

You know.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yep.

[Maureen Callahan]

Stop bleeding.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Oh, you don't want to. And then. Ow. Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then it does.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

She goes down.

[Megyn Kelly]

It seems much more likely they knew exactly who was in there. It just seems impossible to me, though I understand some people there have said it. It took them years to know that Nancy was Savannah's mother. I get. Apparently she's not like my mom, running around telling, like, the electrician and everybody. Like, my mom loves to tell people. Her doctors, they all know. I guess Nancy was more reserved about that fact, which my mom and I have had some laughs over the past week. We've been laughing and worrying together, you know, gallows humor on our own account. But in any event, so it is possible that her. That the locals didn't know that this was Savannah Guthrie's mom, but it just seems too extraordinary to think it had nothing to do with the reason she was chosen. I want to keep going because there's a couple of other things that I've got to ask you about. You guys.

[Harvey Levin]

About.

[Megyn Kelly]

This is just breaking now. Okay, here we are again. I'm sorry to even raise it, but I have to. TMZ just says it says it just received a third email from the man who claims he knows the identity of Nancy Guthrie's killer, or, sorry, kidnapper, and that he's now upped his price. Remember, he was gonna give us that information for the low, low price of one bitcoin, about 65 grand. No, he's pissed now. The email says he's contacting TMZ because he doesn't trust law enforcement, but he trusts Harvey Levin, who spends most of his time talking about celebrity news inside the 30 mile zone or Los Angeles. Okay? He's essentially using TMZ as an intermediary, telling authorities. He, you don't trust me, I don't trust you. He suggests the reward is now. He says, oh, he suggests the FBI reward having been doubled to 100,000 because that happened yesterday after our show was a move designed, quote, to discredit me. Now he wants the 100,000 from the FBI. And here's how. He's asking for a fraction of bitcoin worth 50 grand. And in return, he will give up the information. And then he expects another 50,000 in Bitcoin. He promises not to withdraw the first 50,000 until the kidnapper is arrested. There's another important change. He says when he gets the initial payment, he will give up the name of the main individual. Referring to the main individual, suggesting possibly that there are accomplices. But this fucker. Excuse me. Like, what's happening here. You're both shaking your head.

[Maureen Callahan]

Through you.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm good. It's fine. They don't need to go through me. But I have to say, like, Harvey Levin is milking this for everything it's worth. I just feel like he's too salacious. He's too eager to put himself out there and see himself on TV every night with Aaron Burnett and then with Shawn, and then with. It's like he's. Forgive me, because I have nothing against Harvey, but he's to me, undermining the credibility that he had when he reported the initial ransom notes or whatever. We're referring to the original communications.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

We could almost say he's an opportunist taking advantage of the opportunist who's taking advantage of the adoption of Nancy Guthrie. I can't tell you how many times I've been in prison jail cells with long timers, short timers. Marina, you can probably relate to this. And you're working some other crimes. The guy's part of a gang, whatever. And you say, yeah, we need information on this happened in the Unabomb case. When the New York Times letters he put a nine digit number. So happened was a Social Security number that came back to a guy in prison who was in the manhunt Unabomber miniseries in my book. But the point. And we went in and talked to the guy and he said, oh, yeah, the Unabomber. Yeah. I'll tell you what. You get me out of prison, I'll find this Unabomber guy for you. Now, that's one big example of a big case. But I've done that other times with guys. Yeah, yeah, those burglars. Yeah. Get me out of here for my charges, I'll find who's doing it. No, the deal is you tell us first, then we'll go to the prosecutor, the judge, and we'll get you, you know, a lower. A lower sentence and maybe get you out of. It's good information.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes. This guy, anyone knows this guy would have 100,000. If he had the name of the kidnapper, all you'd have to do is give it up. He'd get the 100,000. He doesn't have to do any of this rigamarole.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

And he can be anonymous. And we told him yesterday, the guy, whoever was at the porch. We said yesterday, on your chef, don't fear that guy on the porch. He's not going to hurt you, I assure you. Nor will the main guy, whoever that is supposed to be. So I would not take this person serious. The family, the FBI decide, if nothing else, they have to put out there, you know, publicly. And maybe we're doing it right now. Give us a little something. Give us a little something to prove that you're valid, that you have decent information, and. And maybe we'll then take you serious. And he. If he knows this much about the case, he could have. He can give something. Now, we're not going to know if it's true or not, but he. If he's this close to the information. And now tmz. Now think about this, too, and I'll let Maureen take over. So TMZ is putting this information out. If there's a real kidnapper or team of kidnappers holding Nancy in custody or wherever she may be at this point, they're going to be looking around each other, saying, hey, who's talking? Who's talking to tmz? And they're going to start, you know, accusing each other of things. So unless that's some wild strategy that someone's employing for that purpose alone. But I'm not talking. No, I'm not talking. So nothing about this makes sense.

[Megyn Kelly]

What would you be doing with this information, Maureen, if you were investigating this case?

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, like Fitz, I have had guys in prison on this big case we worked where they would say, if you let me out, I could solve this other one. That seems to be something that you see a lot. And I just said, hey, you know, I like your enthusiasm, but I think it's fairly obvious. I can't, like, let you walk out of prison for some vague promise. You know, this. I do think this whole thing is a distraction. I think it's taken away resources from the real work that needs to be done. And if this clown. We're starting to normalize this. This theory or this. This thought that you can just come up with your own rules and try to rewrite the way everything's been done since the beginning of time. You cannot come in and say, give me money for absolute nothing. And I, you know, and I don't have to give you anything. This is a.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's just like the other note writers, right? Just like the original note writers who claim they have Nancy. He's claiming, I know who has Nancy. Like, I'll give you absolutely nothing, right? And you'll get. You'll give me something. I'll give you no proof of life, and you'll pay me and this guy. It's like the FBI has already said, tell us if you know who the kidnapper is, and we will give you $100,000 if it leads to his arrest. If this guy really knows who the kidnapper is, the protocol is very simple. Any idiot could follow it. Just tell them, if you're right, you get 100 grand.

[Maureen Callahan]

But the reason they don't want to do it is because they're going to have to sit down with FBI, FBI agents who are going to identify them and check every bit of what they're saying. And that's why they want no part of it, because they have no bona fides and no position to even make these claims.

[Megyn Kelly]

Last question before I let you guys go. There's all sorts of news today. We're gonna get into it our next panel, too, but about a turf war unfolding between Sheriff Nanos and the FBI. That the FBI wanted to send the DNA that it's getting from the crime scene and related searches, like the gloves that were found when the New York Post was tracking law enforcement, to Quantico to the FBI lab. And that Sheriff Nano's said no, that early on he had sent things to a Florida lab he trusts, and he just wants to send everybody, everything to that lab for consistency. He says you can trust this lab. The FBI's got a great lab, too, but this lab already has been processing for us, and we're gonna stay with them. And the FBI clearly has been speaking to the media, pointing the finger at him. You know, like this guy, you know, he's not cooperating. He doesn't really want us there, which is not a good sign. My overall thought is this is not a good sign that they're on the eve of an arrest. Because, as they say, success has a thousand fathers. And failure as an orphan. Once they start doing this, it's very bad for Nancy. Does not mean they found Nancy or are close to finding her or a kidnapper. But can I get your quick takes on the turf war? The sheriff's denying it. The sheriff's saying we get along fine. We're not going to let the media divide us. I happen to know there is consternation over at the FBI with this sheriff and it is his investigation. The protocol is it belongs to the locals unless they want to give it over to the FBI or let the FBI take the lead, which he clearly doesn't. So thoughts on him and that.

[Maureen Callahan]

Maureen, first of all, if the sheriff is the one making the calls as to where the evidence is going, he's the one that's in charge of the investigation. That's.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, that's just the way it is. Yep, that is what's happening. But I mean, what do you make of. Are you surprised that this is happening turf war when we're, you know, so many days in and so little to show for it?

[Maureen Callahan]

I've heard, I've heard about this turf war for longer than I care to admit. I think it's a leadership problem. And I think, you know, I think the line officers and FBI agents are doing everything they can and they're just going. They're doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing. It's just the bosses, it sounds like that are. That are having issues with each other. And there were, you know, to be fair, there were big issues at the Boston bombing. And I think, I'm pretty sure in that instance, one FBI boss was removed because. So I know the FBI is ready, willing and able to remove someone if they're the big problem. But here, from everything I'm hearing, because all the sheriff's deputies and former deputies and everything are all saying the same thing as the FBI agents. So it sounds like the outlier seems to be the actual sheriff. But the truth, the truth will prevail.

[Megyn Kelly]

At some point they'll all be, you know, kumbaya ing. It fits if they find this abductor.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Yeah. An interesting combination is alpha males, high profile, unsolved case, and at least one elected official. And you put those three together and of course, media coverage out, all those other ancillary factors in there, it's going to create these, these, these turf wars or at least these problems. I remember the D.C. sniper case. It was Chief Moose who was the head of Montgomery County Police Department. He was technically in charge. And there are. I witnessed some shouting matches in there and going back and forth between not just the FBI, but every Alphabet agency in Washington, D.C. area was, was involved in that case because everybody's getting shot. Even an FBI employee eventually was killed. So, so yeah, these things are going to happen. I just hope cooler minds prevail. And I think Maureen touched on the important part. The worker bees get along Fine. Even when I was on the Joint Tax Bank Robbery Task Force in New York, the NYPD guys, the FBI guys, agents, detectives, all got along great. It's the bosses that have the personality issues, whatever. So I'm hoping that stuff can all be put aside. The people can get the job done on the lower level. The men and the women, you know, wearing the uniforms, carrying badges, and we get some break on this case, hopefully over this weekend.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Maureen Callahan]

One other observation is where in God's earth are the mayor and the DA of Pima County? How come we haven't seen or heard from them at all?

[Megyn Kelly]

Good question. At least the da Normally you'd see the DA getting involved in this, right?

[Maureen Callahan]

Right. Do they?

[Megyn Kelly]

Isn't that who the sheriff would be working with to get any warrants? You know, and even the FBI would have to work through, Right? Wouldn't the FBI go to the local prosecutor to get warrants if they need them?

[Maureen Callahan]

Maybe. Or the U.S. attorney in that district.

[Megyn Kelly]

But yeah, I wouldn't expect the U.S. attorney to say anything. They never do. But yeah, the local DAs would normally be speaking out. You're right. Maybe they don't wanna step on this guy's toes. I mean, I'm concerned because he's an elected official, the sheriff, he knows it's a celebrity case. I'm like, let me just say this. You'd think that when you're well known, right? Like Savannah's very well known, you'd get the red carpet treatment and you'd get better treatment than like the average person. I mean, I think that's what the average person thinks, that these celebrities get like the red carpet and like, and level up. And there's no question that if this were, you know, some Jane Smith, 84 year old woman, we would not have anywhere near this level of media coverage or law enforcement coverage and not anywhere near. So there is some of that. But there's also the risk of like, what happened to Kobe Bryant, where like that helicopter pilot flew when he had to know he shouldn't have because it was Kobe Bryant and he didn't want to tell him no. And he didn't just follow protocol because it was Kobe Bryant. And like, I've had some of this in my own life too, where you're like, it's actually not a gift for them to treat you in any special way whatsoever. I just want to be treated just like you would treat anybody else. And so, like, if this sheriff is holding onto this case and not sending evidence where, you know, he could voice this off, on the FBI and it could be their problem, that'd be great. But, like, does he really want to take himself off of the Savannah Guthrie case and not be the one to bring Nancy home and possibly get all the glory? You know, I don't think he's yet at the phase where he's like, I'm going to get all the blame if I don't solve this. And I, I wonder whether that's hurting this case.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Some of these personality issues can definitely chime in here. And you, you articulated them. Them well, Megan, I kind of touched on it, you know, a few minutes ago, but, but true. And you know, the pilot you referred to with, with Kobe Bryant and others, if you're a true professional, if you have hopefully decades, you know, one, one and a half plus decades of experience, you know, not to fall to the, for those traps, you know, not to let your guard down, you know, not to back off on what's got you to where you are at this point in time. And, and I'm not saying, you know, we're going to give the benefit of the doubt. Despite some, you know, people at loggerheads, I'm going to assume the investigation is still running the best it can at this point in time with a number of agencies involved, including our own. With me and Maureen, the FBI, and I'm just hoping that some of this is just, you know, fodder for the media, let other people think this is what's happening. Maybe some of it's true, but we're still going to get the job done. But if you're truly experienced, you're going to get it done, right?

[Megyn Kelly]

Maureen, don't you think some of this is coming because the media is used to CSI and they think this should be solved already? And there's a lot of pressure on law enforcement, FBI and local in. Why haven't you solved this case? And so that's when you start to see stories planted of it's him, you know, this guy, right? And then now he feels the need to fight back. And he's given an interview to Matt Finn of Fox News, which we're gonna talk about a little bit more with our next panel. But to me, this, this has a little bit of that in it.

[Maureen Callahan]

I, I don't, I don't know. I, I think, I really think everyone's heart, well, most everyone, except for a couple of outliers, I think their heart's in the right place and they're just pushing as hard as they can and they're trying as hard and they're working longer and overtime shifts left, right, and center. And, you know, I think people are really trying. That's been my experience on all these big. And there are times where you see breakdowns and meaning, like, it just gets to be too much, all of it. I think the media does add a whole bunch of extra pressure, but then there's someone out there like Brian Entin who's, you know, out there making news for everyone and doing, doing a good job. So everyone knows that the stakes are high, the scrutiny is even higher. And, you know, that's when you just have to put your head down and keep your ammo dry and keep going and hope to God you've got a good leader that's going to get you what you need, stay out of your way and keep everyone off your back. That's their job. And too many forget that micromanagers are the worst in a situation like this.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm sure that's true. I just fight crime. I mean, just like Cash has said, let cops be cops. Hopefully that's what's happening at the federal level and the local level. Guys, thank you both so much. Have a great weekend. We appreciate it.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Me too, man.

[Megyn Kelly]

Bye, Fitz. Bye, Maureen. All right, we're bringing in our next panel too, because there's a lot more to discuss. At a certain point in life, you realize you are responsible for a whole lot of things, but the most important is your health. Because without it, nothing else matters. We may not think about our liver very much, but it's our body's daily filter. Processing everything you consume. It performs 500 plus daily functions. Think energy production, digestion, fat metabolism, vitamin storage. And when your liver's overworked, you will feel it. Dose for your liver is a clinically backed liver health supplement taken in a daily 2 ounce drink. Dose says it's highly absorbable. Liquid formula can cleanse the liver of unwanted unwanted stressors that may be slowing it down. Zero sugar, zero junk, zero calories. They say people who take dose consistently report less sluggishness, less midday crashes, better digestion, and even less bloating. New customers can save 35% on your first month of subscription by getting to Dose Daily Co/mk Dose Daily Co MK or just enter MK when you check out that's Dose D O S E Daily D A I L Y.co MK for 35% off your first month's subscription.

[Lois Gibson]

Based on a New York Times best thriller comes 56 Days, starring Dove Cameron.

[Megyn Kelly]

A story of love. Oh, sorry.

[James Fitzgerald]

I'm Oliver.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm Ciara Lies. So do you like secrets? No, I like reveals.

[Lois Gibson]

Seduction.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's like they were obsessed with each other. And murder.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

What do you got here?

[Megyn Kelly]

Body in a bathtub 56 days. Premieres February 18th on Prime Video. I'm gonna get you. Not if I get you first.

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[Megyn Kelly]

My guests joining me now are Chad Ayres, James Hamilton and and will get is who you've come to know well this week. And they're going to weigh in on some of these latest developments, including. They were listening to the last discussion. Let's just pick it up where we left it off, guys. On this alleged turf war. I want to tell you what the sheriff is saying because the reason he gave an interview when he came out earlier this week and said, I'm not giving any interviews. I'm done. I'm done with that right now. Not unless there's breaking news. But he gave an interview to FOX News's Matt Finn on a lot of things. Let me just give you some of the highlights because he did make news in the in the case proper as opposed to just the turf war. He says, first of all, it is not true that his office found a glove at Nancy's home. There had been a news report that in addition to that pair of gloves that were found on the road, that a glove had been found inside Nancy Guthrie's house and that it had been shipped off. He said, that's not true. We have no glove. We have never found a glove on the property. He did say, though, that they have found a lot of gloves, not just the pair that the New York Post happened to be on site when they retrieved in this case to the point we were discussing yesterday. It's not that unusual to see gloves discarded in the desert near cacti and so on. He said they've all been sent off. And he defended his use of that one lab, saying, we started sending the Guthrie evidence to this lab from the start and along with the Guthrie family, DNA and other DNA swabs are all there, too. So it makes sense, he said, to keep sending the incoming evidence there. So the lab can immediately run the new evidence against what is already in house. Hold on a second. Because he says that in soundbite 6, which we have on tape, I split.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Your evidence to two different labs. That could create a conflict. But more importantly, it adds that additional step. This lab has this piece, this lab, this piece. Now they've got to converge those two pieces to make an elimination or identification. No, just send it to one lab. Let's go. They're both great labs.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so let's start there, guys. What do we make of that argument? Because some people really are hammering him for not using the FBI's lab at Quantico. James is the former FBI, or I'll start with you on that.

[James Fitzgerald]

Hey, good to see you again. Thanks for having me. I. I feel almost clairvoyant in that. Yesterday, I think we said this exact same thing. And we said that, you know, that everything looks good on the outside, but behind the scenes there's going to be friction. And here, here we are not surprised by it at all. There is some pretty good evidence that, you know, no pun intended, that the FBI lab at Quantico is, is a superior choice. And mostly because they do this all the time. They created the technology, they have access to the code is database. You know, it's a high profile case, but, you know, the sheriff made a call and obviously people aren't happy about it and they're going to try to drive a wedge. And I think you were spot on earlier when you were saying that we haven't caught anybody, and now it's looking bad, and now we're gonna start pointing fingers. And this is very, very common.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's a bad, bad sign. Just as a reporter on the outside, I know when they start doing this, it's bad. It means they're not getting anywhere.

[James Fitzgerald]

That's right.

[Megyn Kelly]

And so it almost, to me, took out a big eraser and erased all of our leads. I'm starting to think now they're all bullshit because that they don't seem close to arresting somebody. Will they don't talk like this when they're close to arresting somebody.

[Chad Ayres]

No. I mean, certainly my experience on negotiations, one of the biggest, biggest challenges is just trying to control information. And that's information that's not only imparted by the law enforcement agencies if they are involved. Or it could be the media or. Or it could actually be the family itself. So it's about containment to that information, not setting designated schedules for updates or anything like that, and being very cautious about what information is going to be revealed that could potentially heed the law enforcement agencies or the investigative agencies that are getting involved in this. So I think there is some ego that's kicking off here with the sheriff, and I think, you know, he's bathing in the spotlight right now as being the sort of the center point for this. And that that's concerning because, I mean, how many cases of this type has he managed before? And it's only with a lot of years experience that you realize actually the less you say you know, the better.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, I know. I mean, well, Chad, there's been the difference between the sheriff two Mondays ago and the sheriff that has emerged this week. Right. Like when this case first broke, he was talking to everybody and that seemed okay because it was a missing persons case. It was like, we all have to find her. We need the community's help. Everybody pitch in, financing, all hands on deck. And then the FBI got involved and then suddenly he wasn't saying as much. And then they held that Thursday presser and they haven't had a presser since. And now, since then it's just been rumor, innuendo, accusations behind the scenes. You know, some, some leaks to the media, then some denials. It feels more like disarray.

[James Hamilton]

Yeah, I mean, that's the frustrating part. And, and I think the sad part through all of this is at the end of the day, there's still a family that's looking for their missing mother. And, and there. This isn't the type of bullshit they need to be hearing or having to deal with. So I. Listen, I've worked plenty of cases with, you know, three letter agencies, whether it was the FBI, the dea, and sometimes. Listen, you, you've got to lower your, your pride a little bit and, and realize that. Listen, I was a local law enforcement officer and I understand the resources that the bureau has. And so it's not them coming over here and trying to take a, you know, take a part of my case. It's us trying to work together. And that's really what needs to happen. Like, there's so much tension right now in this case because it's such a high profile case. People want answers immediately. But guys, we've got to come together and work together because there's a family that is heartbroken and grieving right now. It's got to stop.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know. I, I can't help but wonder. And who would know? I mean, no one has experience, no civilian in dealing with a kidnapping. Oh, I know exactly what to do or who to call. But, you know, it's Been confirmed that Savannah's first. One of her first calls was to Senator Mark Kelly, who is her home state senator, the state of Arizona, and US Senator Gabby Gifford's husband, and kind of asked him for help. And like, let's line things up appropriately. And it looks like they went with the locals. They put the locals in the lead, and they trusted the sheriff and they didn't insist, as I think you probably could try to, that the FBI got brought in, which is, you know, kidnappings and, you know, possible ransom. That's, I guess, when the sheriff called in on the ransom. The FBI. But, like, one wonders whether the FBI should have been there day one, James. And. And like on this.

[James Fitzgerald]

Yeah, you got to be careful on this. Just because they don't have the jurisdiction, you know, they have to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Have they got the invitation?

[James Fitzgerald]

Definitely, if they get the invitation. That's absolutely right. But if there is, you know, some ego in. In these relationships, as Chad's saying, they're not always great. And. And it really, you know, it's not great here. Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

There's a history between this sheriff and the FBI, and it's not good.

[James Fitzgerald]

Yeah, exactly. And you see these things play out, and this is what's happening. And, you know, he has to ask now if we had solid evidence that she got forbidden to take into Mexico international kidnapping. FBI is going to be at the lead. If we had information, went across state lines. FBI. But right now, they just don't have that. That federal nexus that they can come in, you know, in the typical movie fashion, and FBI, we're in charge. They don't have that. And so now they're really just at the, you know, the behest of the sheriff, and it's causing conflict, clearly.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm going to show you something on this sheriff and the FBI from yesteryear. Okay. This is November. No, I don't know the month. It's 2016. February. February 12, 2016. An interview with KGUN, and he is ripping on the FBI because they were investigating his department's spending, and he didn't much appreciate that. Sought 10 when it comes to an.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

FBI investigation, I was taken back by.

[Chad Ayres]

That as much as anybody.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Here's an agency who for years has.

[Megyn Kelly]

Been known to.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Deny or acknowledge or anything about any kind of investigation. They're famous for that. Am I upset at the FBI? Absolutely. They should.

[Megyn Kelly]

They.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

They. They get by with saying no comment. Who does that in today's world? Who does that?

[Megyn Kelly]

I think the FBI, if they are.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Having problems doing criminal investigations, please call us because we have real policemen here. We'll.

[Megyn Kelly]

We'll do that for you.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Because obviously they can't get it done. I'm upset at that and upset at the inappropriateness of their investigative efforts. And they are inappropriate.

[Lois Gibson]

All right.

[Megyn Kelly]

It was 10 years ago. But Will, it's on camera. It's tough to dispute. They're investigating him and his sheriff's department.

[Chad Ayres]

Yeah, he's got a massive chip on his shoulder towards the bureau. That's inevitable. And I think he's obviously not very happy about having to re. Engage with them and not allow him to do the proper police work, as he puts it. One of my concerns, Megan, that I did want to raise, which sort of goes back a little bit, is about the classification of what this case actually is in the private sector. You know, we have. One of the advantages we have is that we don't actually have to interact with media agencies. We can keep it completely under wraps and keep it very, very quiet. But at the same time, when we're talking to the fans family, if someone has gone missing, it's always going to be a missing person until such time as a credible proof of life has been sent with a ransom demand. And my concern is that this has been classified as a kidnapping. There has been no credible proof of life that has been provided yet. So again, it changes the dynamic somewhat in how it would be approached. And again, I very much welcome Chad and James's input on that from their perspective as well.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right. Should be. Should they be treating this, as I've heard one of you guys call it, homicide, no body, as opposed to kidnapping.

[James Fitzgerald]

Well, before Chad jumps in, I would say real quick with regards to that interview. The FBI is the only one that investigates cops. Now, the state police can do it, and certainly there's ias in bigger metropolitan divisions, but the FBI, by, you know, charter, they work color law violations against police. They're the only ones that do it. And so it obviously ruffles feathers and, you know, I've been involved in those and it's not comfortable at all. So I understand the sheriff's frustration, but that that video was. Was quite, was. Was quite interesting. Thanks for showing that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Here's another one. And we'll go back to whether this should be declared homicide, no body. Put a pin in that for a second, Will, because there's another one. The undersheriff out there who is now former undersheriff under. Under this sheriff Nanos is named Rick Castigar and he spoke to Brian Enten. It doesn't appear that they get along he and his former boss, and here's what he said, nine should have been.

[Harvey Levin]

Recognized initially that once this is labeled an abduction, get a task force together and bring on the FBI and ask them to take it over.

[James Hamilton]

Why do you think that didn't happen?

[Harvey Levin]

Unfortunately, the sheriff, Chris Nanos, has an exorbitant ego and he, in one case I can think of prior to this one, told the FBI he's the better of an investigator and he doesn't need their help. And that was a critical case that we needed their help with this one in particular. They have far more resources than the sheriff's department has.

[Megyn Kelly]

Go ahead, Chad.

[James Hamilton]

It's kind of funny how his, how the FBI says no comment came full circle back to him and every one of his press conferences that he's given so far. That's funny to me. What's frustrating though is the fact that he cannot humble himself enough. We have a 84 year old missing woman and I'm not here to beat, you know, this thing to death. But listen, you don't have the resources you are. Listen, Megan, I said it day one on your show, probably over a week ago. I feel like the sheriff is in over his head. We need to rely solely on the bureau. Humble yourself, your investigators. Listen, people out there are telling me, I've got a buddy of mine that's out there in the area that's affiliated with that law enforcement agency, not directly, but is very close to those people and saying that the investigators want the help of the bureau, but the upper management is the one that's knocking that down.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's what Maureen seemed be saying. She said, I guarantee you the rank and file would love to help, but the leadership is a different story. Here's what President Trump said, which is, I will say telling. Listen to Trump. In Sat 12, hasn't the FBI taken over the Nancy Becker case as the lead investigator? Do you have any updates on how that's going?

[James Fitzgerald]

Well, they took it over originally. You know, it was a local case originally and they didn't want to let.

[Megyn Kelly]

Go, which is fine.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

It's up to them.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's really up to the community.

[James Fitzgerald]

But ultimately when the FBI got involved, I think, you know, progress has been made.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so that last part, ultimately, when the FBI got involved, progress has been made, which, you know, in Trump speak, he's, he's basically saying we're the ones getting things done. And what you guys said, we can't take it over unless this sheriff asks us to take it over. And far from asking that, he's holding onto it. He's making decisions that it sounds like the FBI disagrees with. By not using the FBI's lab at Quantico. I don't know this. You tell me, James. Is it like Jim, is it. Is the FBI's lab at Quantico so special that nothing could be. It can't be replicated by some good lab in Florida?

[James Fitzgerald]

Well, it's. It's the premier criminal lab in the world, so that's probably better than the one in Florida. It does have, again, access to that DNA database. So that's what you need. You need to. Okay, we run the test, but what are we gonna do with it? Well, we need to compare it for a human being. And how do you do that? Well, that lab in Florida is gonna have to ask the FBI for access to the CODIS system. So it's another step that you don't have to be making if we just go direct to the FBI. But I really want to circle back real quick to the videos, because you've got the sheriff saying, and this is very typical, the sheriff saying, you know, we're the real cops. Where are the real law enforcement? You know, the FBI don't know how to work a case where the real cops. And then you heard his former deputy chief say, yeah, he thinks he's the only one that can investigate anything. And, you know, frankly, I don't. I can't tell you how many people I worked with in my academy class who were former cops. I'm a former cop. We don't go around beating our chest about it, but you don't get any credit for it. You know, that sheriff would have you think that the FBI doesn't have a soul that ever worked law enforcement before they got to the bureau. And that's just nonsense.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's very telling. That's actually quite interesting, because it dovetails perfectly with his behavior, that he is running hurt on it, that we are getting some quiet complaints from the feds that they're not getting the cooperation they need and they think is necessary to solve the case. And now you have Nanos, who clearly is worried about his image, because why would he be sitting down, doing an interview when he said, I'm not giving any interview interviews, two thirds of which was spent on this turf war if you weren't worried about his image.

[James Fitzgerald]

And also, remember.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I'm sorry.

[Chad Ayres]

Sorry, James.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Go ahead.

[James Fitzgerald]

Well, Chad and I both come from, you know, Southern sheriff's departments. These sheriffs are terribly powerful. I mean, terribly powerful. And so when people are talking about why in the mayor or the DA there. Because the sheriff doesn't work for the mayor. He doesn't work for the da. The sheriff is the highest elected official in the county.

[Megyn Kelly]

And.

[James Fitzgerald]

And that plays out. It may not play out in LA or New York or Dallas or Houston, but I see it in the south all the time. I'm sure Chad has seen it. You know where he was.

[James Hamilton]

But James, we saw it at Spartanburg county just recently.

[James Fitzgerald]

There you go.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why? What happened in Spartanburg County?

[James Hamilton]

The sheriff was buying pills and on a pill binger and going to dope dealers and buying pills from deputies that had back surgery.

[Megyn Kelly]

And we're not even talking about Alex Murdoch.

[James Hamilton]

No, that'll come later on.

[Maureen Callahan]

That also was in the South.

[Megyn Kelly]

Will go ahead.

[Chad Ayres]

Yeah, no, I was just gonna sort of just complement what James and Chad were saying. And I mean, and certainly from my experience around the world, you know, when I've been connected to kidnappings in. In some shape or form, the FBI, if this does turn out to be a kidnapping and a credible proof of life is presented, then the FBI are one of the best, if not the best negotiators and crisis managers of these types of events. So I'm sorry, Sheriff, get back in your lane. Because to be honest, he's stepping well beyond his capability and should be leaving it to the experts to get on with it and compliment him.

[Megyn Kelly]

Especially at this point when we're not. We don't appear. I mean, I want to say we don't appear close to solving it. That's not how this feels. Maybe right now somebody who knows masked man is calling the FBI with a tip and this thing gets solved by midnight tonight. And that could happen at any moment. But very discouraging that it hasn't happened so far. Look what happens if somebody called saying, I know who that is, they would make it to the top of the tip line, right? I mean, there's a system for that, is there not? It's not like it's just going to be sitting in the midst of the 4,000 and they have to go through them one by one. Like the person who's like, I know who that is does get forwarded up and that. That goes quickly, does it not, Jim?

[James Fitzgerald]

Yeah. And look what happened yesterday again, like you and I are clairvoyant it.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

It.

[James Fitzgerald]

What did they do? They raised the. The reward.

[Megyn Kelly]

You are. You are clairvoyant here. Here you are. Wait, we pulled it. Actually, here's. This has happened on our show yesterday, SOP5.

[James Fitzgerald]

I'm shocked that we're only talking 50,000 bucks right now. I mean, that, that reward, that's a joke.

[Megyn Kelly]

Really? Amp it up.

[James Fitzgerald]

Hell yeah. $50,000. That's nothing.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, what should it be?

[James Fitzgerald]

I'd put it up to half a million dollars. It's 11, 12 days now. I want this woman back. What's 500 grand? We got that kind of money. You know, I, I just for me, let's get some, let's get some strong, strong interest to identify these people.

[Megyn Kelly]

You're not worried that it's going to incentivize the crazies?

[James Fitzgerald]

You know, like, I think incentivize already. We're dropping bitcoin money and, and all that's already happened. Those horses have left the ball barn, as we say where I come from.

[Megyn Kelly]

Called it not quite a half a million yet, Jim. But you called it.

[James Fitzgerald]

Well, I mean, gosh. And that shows the FBI is like, we need to get some pressure here and we need to get these people identified. And, and I'm, I was glad to see it, but wow.

[Megyn Kelly]

Let's keep going a little, a little higher and let me keep going on the Nanos interview and get to some of the news he made non turf war related on the ransom notes and their legitimacy. He punted and said the XBI is the expert at that one. And he wouldn't comment on whether this is a kidnapping, Will, or something else. He says, quote, we believe it's a kidnapping, but, quote, you always consider all possibilities. Okay, he did. The sheriff said in a local news interview. Matt Finn notes in his Fox News report that they found a few different gloves in the area some miles away on this topic. He told Fox News they are not necessarily prioritizing every glove. For example, they're getting calls of gloves in Phoenix a long way away. So news of every glove that's found may not be critical. When asked whether anybody has been ruled out, the answer was, quote, nobody is ever really eliminated. When they talked about the Rio Rico man in Arizona, Carlos, who was the doordash delivery man, who got roughed up a bit by the officers the other night and then they moved on. He said that he was a delivery person who was, quote, in the area of Nancy's house, quote, more than one end quote issue led the sheriff to the Rio Rico man. After talking, the sheriff feels satisfied with his alibi. So notwithstanding his nobody's ever really eliminated comment, sounds like he has eliminated poor Carlos. Nonnells will not confirm to Fox if there was forced entry at Nancy's house or whether the front or back door was used. He's still not giving it up on that. Nanos. Of course, Ashley Banfield's reporting is that there was forced entry and they used the back door. Nano said Nancy's blood was found outside of her home and Nancy's DNA was recovered inside, but cannot confirm that the DNA inside, inside the house was blood. On the criticism that he released the Guthrie crime scene house too soon, opened it up too quick. He said it's not true. They got what they needed. Finn writes, I asked him if they should have cleaned up the blood out of the sanctity and he said that's not their role. Said it's a slap to his team to say that they left too soon. Also says the deputy cars out front now are at the request of the family for safety. It's not that the sheriff is signaling they left too soon on allegations that family members are involved. The family has been fully, 100%, completely. Whatever we've asked for, they've done. It was getting crazy out there with allegations about the family. You can't accuse people of a horrific crime like that and not have any facts behind it. But in the same interview, he does say that no one has ever really ruled out as of today, Nanos has talked to Savannah. He says they've talked and texted, but she doesn't need to talk to the sheriff. She has people, quote, the whole family has my number. Okay, that's odd. And then one final comment on the FBI, on reports in previous incidents suggesting they don't have a good relationship. He with the FBI. You Google what you google, you read what you read. I've got no response. I've always had a good relationship with the FBI. They're a good team. They're good people. And there was another comment where he said an officer, like a lower guy in the FBI had said to him, like, let's not let the media divide us. It's not the media. The media is making the reports, but they're getting this from obviously federal sources who are not happy with this. Sheriff, let's go to the substance here. I mean, I think it's very interesting, the part about how he's. He's. He's defending turning over the crime scene guys just today. I mean, she's not found. Okay. Like, we don't even know if this was a kidnapping or a murder.

[Chad Ayres]

Exactly.

[Megyn Kelly]

So it's very disturbing that just any Tom, Dick or Harry can walk up there as one did when our own Phil Holloway was still there this morning filming. And a Woman walked up. I believe we have this again. I can't communicate to my team when I'm remote, so forgive me, because I don't know if we have the sound bite. A woman walked up and her dog peed on. Yeah, here it is. Peed on the crime scene. This is the neighbor. There she is. Her dog took a pee on the crime scene, which I like. I'm kind of guessing that's not ideal. You guys tell me.

[James Hamilton]

I mean, I'm sitting there thinking, didn't we just have a tarp and a tent set up yesterday? To continue the process of this crime scene, really and truly, that whole property needs to be roped off and secured until Nancy Guthrie is found dead or alive, that's still a crime scene. For some reason. We still, you know, agents keep coming back. Law enforcement keeps coming back. For some reason. If the family is not at, you know, Annie and Tommaso's house and they keep going back there personally, both of those need to be secured, taped off, nobody in and out. Unless it's an investigator at this point.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Cause you tell me Will, but don't you. You don't know what's relevant to look at for sure until you know what crime you're dealing with. Like, you come in, do an initial survey, you take a guess, you proceed. But, like, there may be something they learn when and if they catch this guy, that then they want to go back into that house and check out again and there's no reason to release it. Nancy's not in it. And if we get her back, she can stay with her other daughter Annie down the road.

[Chad Ayres]

Absolutely. It should be a sterile area. Megan, you're absolutely right about the whole area just basically being sealed off until such time as we can determine what's happened to Nancy. Because right now she's just evaporated. We don't know where she is. We don't know in what capacity. We don't know what the motive was of the individual that broke into the house or individuals as yet to be confirmed. And ultimately, it really comes down to the. The fact that this environment needs to be left alone because there could be some subsequent information or intelligence that is brought to the attention of the bureau or of the sheriff or to the sheriff that they may want to revisit the house and look for something. I seriously doubt within the last two weeks, they've intrinsically and forensically gone through that house in every part.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I have the same doubt. What do you make, Jim, of his comment about the family saying the Family's been fully, whatever we've asked for, they've done. It was getting crazy out there with allegations about the family. You can't accuse people of a horrific crime like that and not have any facts behind it. Now this of course is a reference to Ashley Banfield's reporting week one. It hit on the Tuesday after Nancy disappeared which was the wee hours of a Sunday morning that her law enforcement source, impeccable she describes him or her high up, she says that she's known for years said as of that day right now the brother in law Tomas is may be the prime suspect. Now she has said even this weekend, just up until yesterday, she has said nothing's changed. She talks to this person every day and this person has not said no, we've gone in a different direction. And I asked her personally, let me ask you if this person's in a position to know. And the question was basically trying to get at is this like just some rando in the FBI or is this somebody who's actually on the investigation? That's. That was the implicit gist of the question. And she said yes, this person is in a position to know the facts of the investigation. So you tell me what you make of that Sheriff's answer, Jim.

[James Fitzgerald]

Well, he's playing both sides against the middle. He's saying that, you know, they've given 100, I hate that by the way, 100 cooperation or something and that. But you can't rule out anyone. Well, which one is it? And so. Right. We're kind of playing both sides there. And I did want to really quick go back to the comment and he said that it's not their job to clean up the blood. Yes, I agree with you and Chad and, and Will that it was given up too soon. And, and now by the way, you, when you go back with your white tent to get whatever it's compromised, okay. A defense attorney is going to have a field day day with that. I mean absolute field day. And we, we are always taught like basic 101, don't give up the scene until you absolutely need to. And in this case, as you pointed out, you don't need to. Right. She's not going to be upset. She's not there. But to say that we don't clean up the blood. Well then what her family has to do that. Is that what we're hearing Sheriff, that that's okay, that her poor family's gonna have to go and clean up the blood? You know, certainly you have crime scene people who have vendors that do, you know, just disposal and cleaning of crime scenes and terrible like suicides and stuff. That is a service that we are all familiar with through the coroner's office. They could obviously do that. And I think that's extremely callous. That's just my opinion. To say something like that, that we don't deal with that and you let the family deal with it. I just, I find that to be quite, quite callous.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's just, I also feel like, isn't it a little odd, I don't know, like just to leave Nancy's blood sitting there like that's evidence. Don't you try to preserve that and like bottle it or keep it someplace for trial as opposed to just leaving all those blood droplets on the porch? I don't know. Seems kind of sloppy even. Forget like what's kind to the family or sanctity, as Matt Finn put it at Fox News. It's like that seems evidentiary to me and it seems like something you'd want all of the evidence to be gathered, not, not any of it to be left at the crime scene if you can.

[James Hamilton]

Well, we keep seeing too, Megan. We keep seeing that blue shirt that's been laying out there since day one. It seems like every time they pan on that porch we see that blue sweatshirt or something that's been laid out that they've identified. Why was that not even taken? That's so confusing to me. Nobody type of clothing needs to be taken.

[Chad Ayres]

Yeah.

[James Hamilton]

I mean, look at this. I mean this is like Police 101 looks sloppy.

[Megyn Kelly]

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[Chad Ayres]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[Jim Fitzgerald]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[Jim Fitzgerald]

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[Chad Ayres]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[James Hamilton]

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[Megyn Kelly]

Hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius xm. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered, with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly show, you're gonna hear from people like Mark Halperin, link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Drusinski, Jesse Kelly, RealClear Politics, and many more. It's bold. No BS news only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, SiriusXM 111 and on the Sirius XM app. Okay, let me go back to the breaking news Today that I didn't get your opinion. And that is there's another porch man. The audience has heard this discussion from the facts of it. But there's a man who was spotted on somebody's ring or nest cam in the area not far from where Nancy lives. And he looks like he's stealing packages. That's my guess. Or thinking about stealing packages. That's just me without. That's not confirmed, I should point out. But this guy has the look of the abductor. He's got the same facial hair. He's got a similar build, but he's skinny. He's a little too skinny in my view. Nonetheless. This is awfully suspicious, guys. It happened right before. I'm trying to look up for the exact date. January. I'll find it. January 23rd, around 3:30 in the morning. And then he returned again at 5am it was a woman who said, I didn't answer the door but my dog started barking and scared him away. He again is trying to appear to block the camera. But it wasn't very good at it because there he is. It's about as good a mugshot as you could ask for. And we'd compared it now to the sketch that this famous sketch artist like the. She's in the Guinness Book of Records for her amazing sketch artists. This is what she came up with based off the masked man features that we could see on Nancy Guthrie's porch. It's not a bad comparison. Maybe I'm being swayed by the beard, which is identical. But what do you make of this latest porch man?

[James Fitzgerald]

A couple things. I'll take it. I was listening to your segment with Fitz and talking about Tucson and this area, this Catalina Hills, and I looked up their crime rate. It's a C plus, I believe. I really read on the Internet and there are some missing persons in this area. So now we've got three guys walking around porches at 2am like, what's going on? And I think there I read something that her impetus to get. I'm sorry, Ms. Guthrie's impetus to get the ring hammer to begin with is because of some stuff that was going on in the neighborhood. And even though she said something about one to watch animals, but she was concerned about things going on in the neighborhood. So what is going on in this area? There's all these people on these porches at 3am That's a hell of a coincidence, you know. And yeah, I think the sketch looks great. Another lead. These are real leads that the real cops use. The sheriff's term need to start, you know, identifying these people asap.

[Megyn Kelly]

Not like the tmz.

[James Fitzgerald]

Right. Smokescreen. That's all that is.

[Megyn Kelly]

Now, you're not moved by the $100,000 demand, and that's. But I want to split 50 in Bitcoin, and then another 50, and then.

[Chad Ayres]

I'll sense I've dealt with the bizarrest of ransom demands. And you can weed them out very quickly, Megan, you know, between obviously, those that are actually legitimate and genuine and are professional, or even the amateurs who are doing it to the Chancellors who are simply. Simply looking for opportunity. But, you know, the one thing that we would know, certainly pertaining to Nancy, is that, you know, abductions, whether they be for whatever reason, whether it even be for kidnapping, are rarely spontaneous. There will always be some advanced reconnaissance. There will be some scoping out of the environment, the location. Okay? And in this instance, obviously, with the porch guy trying to dismantle and remove the. The ring doorbell, he obviously didn't have a great deal of success, as he proved yesterday, in terms of using the key. But certainly, I think this guy cannot be discounted as. As a viable prospect or suspect. I mean, that would certainly be my feeling, is he is the closest that they've got yet.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right. And like, I. I don't know. I mean, that picture of him is so clear, Chad. I mean, it is like he's looking right into the camera, almost posing for a headshot. Somebody knows this guy. There's got to be a call coming into the FBI on who this is.

[James Hamilton]

Yeah, I'm sure that's already happening, because that was something I wanted to bring up, is people around him. Let's start surveillance on him. Let's talk to people that are in his inner circle as he started changing the way he's acting. Can you imagine, unless you're an absolute sociopath, which you have to be pretty crazy to do something like this. It almost takes me back to that Todd Kohlhep case here in the upstate of South Carolina, where he kept the girl in the Conex boxes and all those people he had murdered. But let's. Let's find out. Is this guy acting strange all of a sudden? Has he disassociated himself from friends? But I truly believe within the next. I. I honestly think by now, if this pictures come out, that they already have an idea of who this guy is.

[James Fitzgerald]

Yeah. Notice, Megan, he had a pretty good neck tattoo on that. And that did. They can zoom in on that. It's pretty. You know, those are really good because there's not so many of them. Then you, you know, you go to the artist, all that type of thing. But I, I would, you know, I, I tell you, now we've got a third. So yesterday we had this Pac man guy, now we got this guy and we've got, you know, all around the same time. For me, the more these things start popping up, the less and less I think this was a target at Nancy, at Nancy Guthrie because of who Savannah is that I, that's how, I mean, I just feel less and less inclined to believe that was targeted because of who she is and more that it's that there's something going on in this area where there's somebody, you know, not go up on porches and somebody. You said that a lady said that, you know, he knocked on the door or something and didn't let him know.

[Megyn Kelly]

He came, he came on the, on the porch at 3:30 and then her dogs went crazy and he left and he came back, he came back at five.

[James Fitzgerald]

Yeah. I think if I keep seeing these ring videos about the same time in the same area, I'm less and less thinking this was targeted at her because of who Savannah is. And more and more.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, in the first hour we also showed the video of the peeping Tom in late December who boldly is standing there outside of a woman's bathroom just filming her like holding his cell phone up. He's trying to get naked video of this woman or this couple inside this house. They said it had happened repeatedly. That's also happening in Tucson. I mean like am I, am I wrong that like this is a high percentage of like porch crime to have on camera in a two month period? Less than two months, like six weeks.

[James Hamilton]

I think you're more personally, I think your MO on the peeping Tom, you're more likely to have an MO to commit some type of sexual assault or kidnapping or violent crime than you do a porch pirate.

[Megyn Kelly]

And he's 64 Chad. I should point out he's. So it's not him because FBI says that Nancy's abductor is 59 or 5 10.

[Chad Ayres]

I think certainly to concur with what the guys were saying. I mean what we're seeing here is a very unusual patterns of behavior by these particular individuals. I mean the peeping Tom, yeah, they're usually pretty predictable. But I think in terms of the other two, this is, you know, it's not the typical time of day or night for a porch pirate to come and steal someone's packages which have been left outside that's that's general, really going to be around those predictable times where they will be delivered and therefore this individual actually lurking around. And as you said, Megan returning a couple of hours later, something very unusual. There's something very odd that's going on in this particular town.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, but let me say something. Let's say this latest porch guy is the guy. I mean, it's interesting. He didn't wear the face mask for that crime or possible crime. We don't know if it was a crime on January 23, but by January 31, he was. I don't know. And he would have had to gain some weight, too, because he seemed skinnier, I think. I'm not totally sure because you don't see his body as well as you saw Pac Man's, but let's say it's him. Like, once again, this does not look like a sophisticated criminal at all. He probably is a sophisticated consumer of the criminal justice system. You know, I mean, didn't look too nervous to be on some lady's porch in the middle of the night twice coming back, even though there's dogs and he didn't live there because it's the woman whose home it is saying, who's this creepy guy who came on my porch not once, but twice? So my point is simply that guy. That guy is keeping a hundred FBI agents and sheriff's deputies befuddled for two weeks now. Like, he covered his tracks so ably that they can't crack that guy. I just. I have a hard time believing it. He just. Mr. I look straight into the camera like, no, I don't believe it.

[James Hamilton]

And then the next time you bring a bouquet of flowers or weeds to try to cover up the camera when you come in. Come on.

[Megyn Kelly]

And that guy didn't look that sophisticated to me either, with the flowers. You know, Like, Ashley's theory is that he was using the flowers to, like, divide the nest camera from its base, like, possibly get it off. I don't know whether that's true. It seemed to me to look more like a camouflage. And as we demonstrated with our videotape demonstration by Jake Whitman, our producer, all you have to do to get that nest camera off its cradle is this. It's like you just a couple of times and it's off. You definitely don't have to go through, like, the camera with the, I don't know, the vegetation, I don't know. But none of these guys seems all that sophisticated to me. I mean, I will say this guy with the ski mask is definitely he looks the scariest and he means business with that mouth light and that backpack. You know, these other guys, they don't look as business like as the real abductor.

[James Fitzgerald]

And is it possible there's not a group, is it possible there's not a group of people hitting these houses at 2, 3 in the morning? Yeah, we don't know. But clearly there's something amiss in this, in this town or this area of Tucson that we have this much, you know, activity on porches with these men.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's a fail by the sheriff. I think that's fair to say. He should spend less time at the basketball games and more time arresting people who are harassing law abiding citizens in their homes. I don't know. We're now almost at the two week mark. Today's Friday. A lot of people will listen to the show over the weekend. It'll be Saturday and it will be two weeks. It was, you know, in the wee hours of Sunday morning, overnight Saturday that she was taken and possibly worse. Where do you put the chances, like scale of 1 to 20, that Nancy is still alive?

[Chad Ayres]

I personally, from my own experience, I will always keep the balance in there until such time as you've got a body and you've got a confirmation or you've got her back alive. I think it's just a very, very slow process. I've had some negotiations in the past which have taken if not weeks, certainly months to try and identify what's going on. But my biggest concern, Megan, is that there's been no credible proof of life. So that's why the numbers will probably tilt more towards the pessimistic than the optimistic as far as I'm concerned.

[Megyn Kelly]

Go ahead, Jim.

[James Fitzgerald]

Yeah, a million percent. I'm with Will, you know, without any, any communication. I mean, if this was like we said before, this was a kidnapping for ransom, we would have had communication and, and that's the, you know, proper way to do it. Nothing about this case has been proper. If you got her, why aren't you telling somebody? I think something bad wouldn't have. I think something happened in that house. He ended up hurting her more than he wanted to. I think she died and, and that's where we are. That's what it feels like to me. Without, you know, anything, any communication, nothing. It's just bizarre.

[Megyn Kelly]

Go ahead, Chad.

[James Hamilton]

Yep, I'm on the same page. And also we're dealing with an 84 year old woman that had serious health conditions, health issues. You know, she had a pacemaker, she can't go without her medication. Two weeks. This trauma and stress that's on her body, if she was taken alive and held captive, I don't know if she had the wherewithal or the strength, if her heart was even strong enough to maintain everything she went through. I agree with both guys. I don't think she made it out of the house alive that night.

[Megyn Kelly]

Chad, I know you gotta run. I'm just gonna keep you other two guys for a couple extra minutes. I got a couple of questions to ask you. Good to see you, Chad. And thanks for everything. You too, man. On the subject of the you're both concerned because there hasn't been proof of life. And we don't know whether there's been proof of abduction or legitimate ransom demands either. Put aside the nutcase who keeps coming back for a a coin to tell us who it is. Let's focus just for a second on the original alleged ransom note that TMZ and the two local stations got. And then the follow up note that only one of the local stations got, neither of which had proof of life. The first one said, we have her. The second one, even though they had begged for proof of life, did not provide it. But Harvey Levin is saying this today. He posted this on an X.com video. Okay, this is today. He's saying this about that original. Give us 4 million by Thursday. And if not by Thursday, then by Monday. Six million or else. Ransom note. Here's SOT4.

[Harvey Levin]

I will tell you this. I know. And when I say I know, I am positive that authorities, including the FBI, are vitally interested in that ransom note. I know this to be true. And I can't say the specifics because I promised I wouldn't. But I can tell you they are absolutely still vitally interested in this ransom note. But I will tell you, they are still really interested, really interested in that ransom note.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. I mean, I think part of what Harvey's suffering from here is what his normal day job is, but he's a very talented lawyer. I mean, I disagree with him vehemently on his take on Don Lemon, but that aside, Harvey's been in the legal business for a long time. He's no dope. So I'm trying to, like, sort of check what people's biases may be because he, you know, he does celebrity tabloid news for a living, but he clearly has sources on this case because he's 100% been dealing with the FBI on these alleged ransom notes. Of course they've been dealing with him. So for sure he's got sourcing. And, you know, what do you guys make of that? That they're saying they're still taking that note, those notes, Deadly, seriously, vitally interested in that note still. And, like, maybe that is still their best lead. I mean, other than face mask man, which so far hasn't gone anywhere. That is. Is it possible still that the actual kidnapper did communicate with them and that there's some way of tracking him either through those anonymous forms or the bitcoin account that the man who. Or the person posted.

[Chad Ayres]

James, if I may jump in, if you don't mind. I. I would say. Okay, so firstly, in the background, what happens with these kinds of demands when they first come in, Megan, is that the crisis management team will obviously assess it. They'll evaluate it as clearly as they possibly can as to the credibility. Then they will refer. They will treat it as a serious request, and they will obviously revert back giving the assurances to the individual who's claiming this ransom of some sorts or claims to have this information. And then what they'll do is they will make it very clear, and they will put in the rationale and the reasoning to say, look, you know, we would love to help you. We'd love to give you that money, but there are certain processes we have to follow, and there are certain processes we have to go through to verify that you are, in fact, telling the truth, which we believe, of course, but we need you to provide us with that sufficient evidence and information to confirm that you do have this information and you can provide it. And obviously, if you can, you'll be paid. And as you said, Megan, earlier in the show, you said, you know, there's $100,000 reward now, so, you know, don't have to go through the complicated process of one bitcoin initially and then a subsequent bitcoin later down the line. If he provides good information, he'll get paid. It is as simple as that. I think, unfortunately, TMZ are making massive theatrics about this. And I would find this. If I was within the FBI team, I. I'd be very irritated by this somewhat.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you think, Jim?

[James Fitzgerald]

Yeah, I think he said vital and really interested. I think he said it four times. Who's negotiating? So even if. And by the way, it's a big if, even if it was a kidnapping and they reached out to TMZ and not the family or the police or the FBI to, you know, to begin the communication to get their money.

[Maureen Callahan]

Money.

[James Fitzgerald]

Okay, well, at some point, that communication with the news agency would then be turned over, as will saying to the crisis management team, to the family, to the people could actually get the cash. Unless, you know, Mr. Levin's going to get the cash and he's negotiating the safe return of Ms. Guthrie, then I don't understand why you would continue to go to tmz. Remember, we want him. Right? We want our money.

[Maureen Callahan]

So.

[Megyn Kelly]

So if it's not the legitimate kidnapper who sent the first two, forget the weird charlatan at the end, the guy who's continuing to text about his bitcoin. Now split into two. If you're not the legitimate kidnapper on notes one and two, what are you doing? You're just a fraudster. You're an opportunist.

[Chad Ayres]

Certainly just wasting time. I mean, quite often some of these guys can be complete fantasists at all their chances, and they just want to make some money out of it. But there should be consequences, obviously, to that kind of behavior because it is absorbing resource to even qualify the nonsense that they're presenting. But I'm with James 100% on this, Megan. I discount this particular demand to TMZ and certainly how they're framing it, that they're managing it. No, it doesn't wash with me.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I agree.

[Megyn Kelly]

Here we are, stymied. Some leads still out there, DNA being analyzed. Maybe we'll get a hit from the Florida lab on somebody who's in the database. Somebody who was in that house who wasn't supposed to be, who possibly has a criminal record. That would be huge. It's taking kind of a while, but, you know, I don't want to be the CSI misled reporter either. These things can take a while. They don't want to screw them up. So fingers crossed we get a breakthrough on the DNA. Or possibly an identification of masked man on the porch.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Absolutely.

[Megyn Kelly]

This weekend, guys. Thank you. I'm sure we'll be talking soon.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Pleasure.

[James Fitzgerald]

Good to see you. Thanks so much.

[Megyn Kelly]

You too. There's one final point I wanted to make just without the guys. Maureen, actually. Maureen Callahan, part of the MK Media Network. If you haven't tuned into her show, you should. The nerve she raised this point, and I have to say, it resonated so strongly with me that I wanted to get into it here myself, which is, you know, I've been telling you all this stuff like we're a family at the Today show. It isn't true. And there's no question that I have an axe to grind with these people. As you know, I have a bias here. So you can factor that into my analysis, but it's not true. It is a bunch of backstabbers over there. Nobody likes anybody. They may go out to lunch with you. They may have dinner. They could even vacation with you. But trust me when I tell you they're all planting stories about one another behind their backs. And if their neck is on the chopping block, they make sure somebody else takes it. I mean, network news is a vicious, vicious place. Way more so than cable. Way more so. And so they put on an image. I'm not saying everybody's bad. I'm saying the relations between them are set up to be fraught and very nasty. And everybody's on guard because they all want their seat. You know, they want their precious seat, and they don't want anybody else to get it. And, you know, the knives are always out for the people who have those seats. So Maureen noted that on the Chanel and Jenna Show. I guess that's a show now. I don't. I think it's in my old time slot. In the third hour of Today. Everything's wonderful. We're all such happy friends and family. They decided to do a segment yesterday, Thursday involving an actress who Chanel knows from some past. She's an actress who was there to promote something. And they ran a clip of the two of them hugging. Okay, Chanel and this actress. I'm gonna show it. Here it is. If you look for it, I've got.

[Chad Ayres]

A sneaky feeling you'll find that love actually is all around.

[Megyn Kelly]

She's holding this older woman. She's hugging her. And that was the voice of Hugh Grant from the movie Love. Actually, if you look for it, I've got a sneaky feeling that love actually is around. She's hugging Adrienne Balin Houghton's mom. And someone at the Today show posts this. It's like the show Instagram. And they post this with the caption, nothing beats a mom hug. Chanel shares that Adrienne Bailon Houghton's mom comforted her. Chanel. In the days after Chanel's husband's passing, which was a tragic event that happened, I think, earlier this year. They reunited in Studio 1A today. I'm sorry, but what news organization, what set of producers, what news anchor who is responsible for that account would allow nothing beats a mom hug to go out on the Today show social media. The same day Savannah Guthrie posted this to her Instagram about her mom. It's video of Nancy Guthrie, much younger. She looks absolutely beautiful. And her two daughters Annie and Savannah dressed alike. And it ends on a still shot of the whole family. Well, not the whole family. Their dad, wasn't it? But their mom and the three children in a black and white. Okay, so Savannah posted that Thursday. She posted that. And this was the response from her co workers. Okay, so she posts this about her mom with a note. Hold on, I'm trying to find it on my. I can't seem to find. Oh, here it is. Here it is. Savannah's note was, our lovely mom. We will never give up on her. She's suffering, quite clearly. And this is what her colleagues do. Nothing beats a mom hug. I'm sorry, but network television is a vicious, thoughtless, heartless, nasty place. And you should not be misled into thinking you are watching loving, wonderful people who are just. It is not what they would have you believe. And I just think that it was a despicable oversight, intentional move. I don't know. At some point someone's gonna have to take responsibility for it and say, I did a thoughtless thing and I'm deeply sorry. You know, they brought Hoda in. Like, hoda's back to help. I'm sure Hoda's back to help. Hoda has been dying to get back on the set of the Today show ever since she left it. Morning television isn't making the money that it used to make. It's not bringing in anywhere near the revenue. Neither is cable, for that matter. I mean, the CNN ratings are in the shitter, literally. They've lost more than half their audience, almost two thirds of their audience now. They were getting like 1.3 million in, like, I think it was 2016, 17, when Trump took over in their primetime. And, you know, they were fighting him every night with Jeff Zucker directing the coverage. They went hard, partisan. And people did tune in for that because there was a lot of Trump hatred. Now it's down to, on average, in the 400 thousands per night, 400 fours, the 400s, 5 hundreds at best, in the prime time. I can't tell you how dreadful this is. I mean, we were averaging 3 million and change every night on the Kelly file, in the demo, in the key advertising demo, we'd easily get a 400,000. I mean, like, if you didn't get that in the demo, which is a much smaller group, 25 to 54 year olds. Cable, as you know, is much older viewers. You'd be horrified if you didn't get that. Like, now the overall number at CNN is down in the fours or fives. I mean, that is just a five alarm fire. They are not going to survive this. Shows views on YouTube are surpassing their entire networks or at least making it a battle every month. The total views on all of their shows and even now in a battle for their website hits like it's that thing used to be a monster. It's not gonna survive. That's the bottom line. That's cnn. But the Today show is not far behind people compared to where they used to be. They are a shadow of their former selves. The ratings are dwindling, their salaries are dwindling. The report was that they asked Hoda to take a pay cut because they can't afford her huge salary anymore. And she like, with dignity, walked off the set rather than take the pay cut. I don't know what actually happened there, but she walked away and she's been back about 4,000 times since she did. Because it is a thing with TV people that they need to see their mugs on TV or they don't feel like they matter. That is true for many of them. So I just. I'm sorry, I didn't buy that either. I'm back to help. Okay, sure. Sure you are. Why were you back all together 10,000 times when nobody wanted you? Everything is a manipulation. Just keep that in mind. Everything's a manipulate. Don't let them manipulate you. What Savannah's going through is genuinely awful, horrible tragedy. Everything that's happening on the set of that show is theater. I believe that Tom Winter, the reporter they're using for reporting on this issue, is an honest reporter who is doing his very best to stick to just the facts and to not get ahead of his skis on anything out of respect for the family. And I trust his reporting. He was. It's not. He hasn't been perfect, but he's been legit. And I think he tries his best to stay factual. But as for the propaganda that gets pushed out on their evening news or their morning news show, beware and don't buy it because that was pretty damn heartless. Nothing beats a mom hug. Having said all that, that is a true sentiment. And for those of us who are lucky enough to have them here and, well, live up to it, man, I'm sure Savannah would want that from all of us. Thank you all for watching, for being with us this week. And last, as this bizarre, gripping, troubling story has unfolded, I think it's about more than. It's certainly about more than celebrity. It's interesting, of course, because we all know Savannah Guthrie, but I think it's about the value that Americans place on a life. They just do, you know, don't get me started on the abortion issue. Trust me, we've all had many debates about it. But the way we all come together when someone's life is in jeopardy, whether it's minors in a cave or a little toddler who we can't find or the mystery around four Idaho college students who met a grisly end. The nation wants answers and it wants accountability and it wants a rescue if there's any chance for a rescue and then and or justice. The nation wants it. It wants it desperately. And the more invested they get in a case, the more insistent they are on having it. And I think that's to our credit. I actually think that's something we should be proud of. Having said that, we will be doing some other news next week as well. We got to get back. There's a lot, lot happening. Epstein, My God. And the hearing with Pam Bondi was crazy this week. The whole super bowl fallout and all the craziness there. The Olympic stuff. Did that French judge steal our medal from our ice? Ice skaters are ice dancers. Certainly looks like people believe that. I'd like to know what the truth is, but a whole scandal's evolving now and whether the French did not deserve to win that gold into that. And the Olympics in general are sort of a nice getaway from the darkness of this news story. So take those in. See, I'm not that biased against NBC. I can't tell you to go watch the Olympics. Some of it is still fun. The ones who still love America, like the hockey team. Yeah, we can root for them. Not so much the men's freestyle skiers, but live and learn on the ones that we support. The ones we tell. I support all of you and I appreciate your support of this program. Lots of love to you all and I'll see you soon. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No bs, no agenda and no fear.

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[Megyn Kelly]

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[Megyn Kelly]

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