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The Megyn Kelly Show
Luigi Mangione, NXIVM Cult, and Megyn's Own Family Fraud Story - Megyn's "True Crime" Mega-Episode
04:17:40
Megyn goes into the archives for her next true crime mega episode, looking at the Luigi Mangione healthcare CEO murder, a deep dive into the NXIVM cult, and Megyn shares her own family's fraud story.
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- [00:04]
Megyn Kelly
Choose to show up with the bold styling of the Mazda CX30,
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Dr. Leonard Sax
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Megyn Kelly
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Nippy Ames
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Megyn Kelly
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Nippy Ames
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Megyn Kelly
Download today welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show and today's true crime mega episode. Today we have our psychological deep dive from various perspectives after the shocking Luigi Mangioni murder of the healthcare CEO. And then two episodes from our fraud week with a focus on the Nexium cult from my hometown up in Albany, New York and my family's own fraud experience, including the undercover tape I got between me and my fraudster. Unbelievable stuff. Enjoy and we'll see you Monday. We are learning new and disturbing details about the accused health care CEO killer as his manifesto and other chilling writings become public. This comes amid more bizarre displays of praise for this guy Luigi Mangione from those who are positioning him as some kind of Robin Hood figure. I'm over it. I'm really over that psychosis by some faction of the American populace. Just, you know what, like Dr. Leonard Sacks is here in just a few minutes. I mean, this is the parenting Expert. He's an MD. He's a PhD. He has spent his life studying longitudinal long term studies of children and actually practicing with children. And he actually knows a thing or two about psychology. And one of his main takeaways is have dinner with your children. Have family dinners in a perfect world seven nights a week, but as many nights as you can, even if it's short of seven. Someone needed to do that. In the families of the people who are now praising this guy as a Robin Hood figure, you're an idiot. By the way, heard this from our pals over on the Editors. The, the guy, the, the, the Brian Thompson who was murdered, the CEO who was murdered, comes from no privilege. His dad was totally self made. I think he was a farmer. And this guy, Brian Thompson, was totally self made. Pulled himself up, got himself to the top of the insurance world. The killer accused is from enormous privilege, tons of dough. The family owned country clubs, radio stations, health facilities, went to some Tony boys, school for 40 grand a year, valedictorian, upenn, Ivy League. All the advantages, all the breaks. And yet he's supposed to be the Robin Hood. He's the one we're supposed to be rooting for. Screw you don't have the time. My mom always used to say I cannot respond to irrational behavior rationally. And that is how I feel when I look at these morons. Trying to talk about this guy like he's some sort of a hero, this Luigi dude. All right, so Dr. Leonard Sachs is going to be on in one second, but first we want to get into some of the psychology of this guy and how on earth this could possibly happen. Like how could this have gone down by a guy with that kind of pedigree who turns into a. A killer if what the police say is correct. And for that we Bring on Candace DeLong. She's a former FBI criminal profiler. She worked on cases like the Unabomber, the Tylenol murders. We spoke to her on episode 466 about the Idaho murders. So you may be familiar with Candace's work. When she they first recruited her over at the FBI, she was a head nurse over at Northwestern University. And then she went on to work, as I said, on some of the most prominent cases in America. She's hosted the award winning podcast Killer psyche with Candice DeLong. How does a guy with that kind of a background, with all the advantages, who was a valedictorian of his high school class just 10 years ago in 16, not even 10 years ago in 16, who goes on to complete a bachelor's and a master's at the University of Pennsylvania, not exactly an easy school, wind up becoming this much of what looks like a psycho killer in just a few years.
- [04:55]
Candace DeLong
Mental disorders. Mental illnesses emerge in the late teens, early to mid 20s. Now I'm not diagnosing him. I simply saying that is a fact about mental illnesses. And it's certainly a good question looking at this young man's meteoric rise to success athletically, culturally, socially, academically, and then to throw it all away and appear in behavior that is a head scratcher became a murderer. I think we probably will find something.
- [05:40]
Megyn Kelly
What does it look like to you? Like schizophrenia. Because you tell me if it let's like if you're having a psychotic break. And I know, I mean we've seen this with young men in particular who are guilty of mass shootings. Seems to happen between 19 years old in the mid-20s. But like, are those people generally like this guy Luigi, where you're fine for. For all the years prior to that, you know, there's no hint that this is going to happen to you.
- [06:08]
Candace DeLong
Yes, that can happen. Now, I'm not saying this guy is psychotic. Clinical term means out of touch with reality, doesn't perceive things as they are, possibly hearing voices. We don't know that about him. But the answer to your question is yes. I'm aware of a number of cases where both in my life growing up and then as a psychiatric nurse caring for people, young people who went away to college, and the expression is came home in a basket, and what happened. Was mental illness serious. Usually schizophrenia or sometimes bipolar disorder emerged, where there's that bridge from puberty to adulthood.
- [06:58]
Megyn Kelly
That's dark. I mean, that. Could that happen to anybody? Because what I'm looking at with this guy is, you know, well, we don't know much about his family, but there's a lot of references to, like, mushrooms or drugs on his social media. And we did have on Dr. Roland Griffith, who was the guy who really founded who, not really, who did find, found the clinic for psilocybin and for, you know, these sort of MDNA treatments for people who are depressed at Johns Hopkins. But one of the main things he said, Candace, was you don't do those drugs recreationally or outside of a setting in which a prior family history of psychosis or schizophrenia can be detected, he said, because if we see anything like that in the questionnaire we give our potential participants, they're bounced because it can trigger a psychotic break from which you may not return.
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Candace DeLong
I have seen that as a psychiatric nurse, I saw it. And when my son was in high school, decades ago, a friend of his did some kind of designer drug, psychedelic drug, became a schizophrenic thought disorder, and it did not have a happy ending. These are very serious drugs. And if somebody has a history, they may not even know they have a history of mental illness of some kind, it can open the floodgates.
- [08:35]
Megyn Kelly
Are you surprised to hear all these friends coming out and saying, totally nice guy would absolutely didn't see any. And recently, you know, the college friend saying, absolutely no hint of this, and the most they seem to be able to come up with is, well, he had this terrible back injury. Though so far, no one is claiming he was denied insurance or anything like that, but, like, he had some terrible back injury.
- [08:59]
Candace DeLong
Right, Exactly. I'm not surprised that his friends from college, which was a while ago, are saying, gee, we didn't see this coming. He's Totally normal. Because when these. When many of these mental illnesses we're talking about emerge, it happens in a matter of weeks. And I haven't seen anyone being interviewed that said they had interacted with him in the last six months.
- [09:27]
Megyn Kelly
No, no. And would it be typical, do you think? I mean, are you surprised to learn he went kind of underground or went radio silent with respect to family and friends over these past six months, to the point where his mother filed a missing persons report for him in San Francisco in November, believing that that's where he was, though we don't know where he was at the time. Most recent report was he was in Hawaii for a period.
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Candace DeLong
Well, no, I'm not surprised. A couple of things came to my mind about that radio silence with family and friends. One is that, yes, possibly a mental illness was emerging. But moreover, now that we know what he did last week, he had decided to do it. To kill someone. To kill this person. And he did not want to interact with anyone for, like, could be a.
- [10:24]
Megyn Kelly
Who might talk him out of it.
- [10:26]
Candace DeLong
Yeah.
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Megyn Kelly
Mm. What do you make of. I mean, you're about as expert as they come in the Unabomber. He seemed to admire him quite a bit. And they had some group, like a book club that they were forming, and it was this guy and two others, and this is the first book he wanted them to read. And apparently they all found it so disturbing, like his manifesto, that the book club disjoined. It fell apart before they made it through the end of Ted Kaczynski's writings. But this Luigi fellow really found him inspiring.
- [11:05]
Candace DeLong
I almost lost my mind reading Ted Kaczynski's manifesto. It's rambling. It is at times almost incoherent. So that doesn't surprise me that. That his colleagues, who probably were of sound mind, what the heck is this?
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Megyn Kelly
But.
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Candace DeLong
But it also doesn't surprise me that this young man that we are talking
- [11:32]
Megyn Kelly
about
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Candace DeLong
became an admirer of Kaczynski. What did Kaczynski do? He killed people that he thought were harming society, or at least he attempted to. The truth is, when Kaczynski put a bomb down and walked away, or mailed a bomb, he had no idea who was going to be hurt or killed by it, and he didn't really care. That is different than what we are seeing here with Mangione.
- [12:03]
Megyn Kelly
He was being led into the courthouse yesterday to be charged in connection with this alleged crime and seemed to be trying to wriggle out of the physical control of the police officers to Be heard. It's kind of difficult to understand what he's saying. But my, my read of it is. And we'll play it, but I'll just give it to you in advance. It's completely, we don't know what. It's completely out of touch and an insult to the intelligence of the American people. It's lived experience. Listen here. Okay, so that was for his extradition hearing. They're trying to bring him back to New York where his lawyer is fighting it to keep him in Pennsylvania for a few more weeks. I mean, I think the game is delay, delay, delay. When you have a criminal defendant with this much evidence against him, what do you make of that?
- [13:05]
Candace DeLong
When I saw that, of course, I watched it very carefully. And one of the things that I noticed was when he was in the police vehicle, there is no indication, I couldn't see that he was causing a stir, that he was combative, yelling, screaming, kicking, anything like that in the vehicle. He gets out, he looks around, he spots the camera, and then he goes on his rant.
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Megyn Kelly
Now,
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Candace DeLong
there was a time I worked at a county emergency psychiatric facility and most patients that were brought in were in the back of a police car and they were screaming and yelling. There's actually a cage wall to protect. It looks like a cage to protect the police officers in front. He wasn't doing that. He was cool, calm and collected until he knew the cameras were rolling.
- [14:06]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, so it's performative to some extent. I think we've got, I mean, his lawyer says, I've seen no evidence that he's the killer. Okay, We've all seen overwhelming evidence. If one tenth of what the news is reporting, that it was all over this guy. He, other than, I mean, he basically had a T shirt that read I'm the killer of CEO Brian Thompson. He had his manifesto on him, he had the gun on him, he had the bullets on him. He. Now, the latest reporting is that his fingerprints, they do match fingerprints found at the scene of the murder and in the notebook that's on him. This is how one of the ways in which we know other than his book club, that he had a fondness for the Unabomber because they are reporting at CNN that his notebook included a list of to do's and tasks that he needed to complete to facilitate a killing, as well as notes justifying those plans. And in one passage in the notebook, he concludes that using a bomb against his intended VICT could kill innocence. But that shooting would be much more targeted musing. What could be better than Quote, to kill the CEO at his own bean counting conference, which indeed is what happened. Try to help us understand here, Candace, because if you read his alleged manifesto and the police haven't yet released it, but there is a report online, CBS claims that they've seen it. Ken Klippenstein, claiming he's seen it and has posted, goes on to say some of what we already read to our audience yesterday to the feds. I'll keep it short because I respect what you do for the country to save you a left lengthy investigation. I state plainly I wasn't working with anyone. This is fairly trivial. Some elementary social engineering, basic cad. I don't know what that means. A lot of patience. The spiral notebook, if present, has some straggling notes and to do lists that illuminate the gist of it. My tech is pretty locked down because I work in engineering, so probably not much info there. I do apologize for any strife or traumas, but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. He rips on the healthcare system and how large United was and how life expectancy in America is not what he hoped it would be. And then he goes on to say something interesting. Obviously the problem's more complex, but I don't have the space and frankly, I don't pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument. He says many people have illuminated the corruption, the greed. And then he writes, evidently I am the first to face this with such brutal honesty. So as somebody who, you know, does this kind of profiling, Candace, what he's saying, I don't really understand it that well. There are a lot of people who get it better than I do, but I understand I'm the one, the first one to sort of be brave enough, he's saying, to do what needs to be done here, to face it with brutal honesty. And he's confessing to the feds. Let me save you the time. I did it and I did it alone. What is all of that? If. If it proves to be real and it so far it looks like it may be.
- [17:20]
Candace DeLong
Tell you he wants attention for what he did. He's certainly getting it. This is the biggest story I've seen in a long time. This way eclipses the Idaho murders. He, to me, what. What you just read seems a bit disjointed, but what he's saying is parasites. It needed to be done. Sorry if anyone was hurt. And he takes it upon himself, he is the avenging angel, as he sees it. Yet in his notes, I see Fragment, fragmentation, wandering thoughts, which all would support that he is. This whole thing has to do with the mental decompensation on him going on.
- [18:19]
Megyn Kelly
And last question quickly. Does that mean insane as a legal matter?
- [18:24]
Candace DeLong
Well, as insane, of course, legally means the individual did not understand, did not know at the time they committed an act that it was wrong. And that's hard for people to understand, but if an individual has voices in their head telling them to, to kill someone in order to save the rest of America, that is a very serious mental. They, they really thought what they were doing was right and they belong in a mental facility, not a prison.
- [18:57]
Megyn Kelly
So like John Hinckley.
- [19:00]
Candace DeLong
Exactly. Exactly.
- [19:02]
Megyn Kelly
Well, we may see that defense offered depending on where the facts go. Candace, always a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here.
- [19:11]
Candace DeLong
Thank you.
- [19:11]
Megyn Kelly
Megan.
- [19:12]
Sarah Edmondson
Happy.
- [19:13]
Megyn Kelly
So interesting, right? It's so interesting. I mean this guy was methodical. He. He used a lot of planning, you know, the escape plan and so on. It was far from perfect. So all of that will be used by the prosecution to say he knew exactly what he was doing. But legally insane is a different standard. And you know, John Hinckley went to a mental facility instead of a jail because he, he did it for Jody Foster. He didn't realize what he was doing was, was wrong. I mean, this can work depending on what the facts are. And we'll see. So far his lawyer isn't saying we're going to cop to an insanity plea or anything like that. He's suggesting we have the wrong guy, which is laughable. Okay, now we're joined by Dr. Leonard Sachs. Dr. Sachs is a psychologist, he's a family physician and MD and a new York Times best selling author. He by the way, is one of the few people in the world, I think to have completed his education at MIT at age 19. That's the level of brilliance we're talking about here. We had Dr. Sacks on in January of last year for a wide ranging discussion on parenting, the trans contagion and more. It's a must. Listen. It was episode 474. He recently revised and updated his incredible best selling book, the Collapse of Parenting. How we Hurt Our Kids When We Treat Them Like Grownups. And it is even more necessary today. Dr. Sacks, welcome back to the show. I want to get into all things about the update, but can I get your thoughts to kick it off on this accused killer in connection with the murder of Brian Thompson and what you glean from the facts that we just outlaid with Candace?
- [20:51]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes, absolutely. I think it's such an illuminating, illuminating story. And I've seen this so much in my own practice as a family doctor now for more than 30 years. So many boys want to be heroes. They want to be seen as heroes. They want to see themselves as heroes in their own eyes. You know, I spoke some years ago at a conference on juvenile justice, statewide conference in New Mexico, and the topic was Boys Adrift, the title of one of my books. And after my presentation, they had a panel of four experts from across the state. And one was Judge John Romero, who's the chief of the juvenile judges in Albuquerque. And he said when he first began doing this work as a juvenile judge in Albuquerque, he was puzzled because all these teenage boys, you know, good men with great potential, being accused of these horrible, violent crimes, and he would take them into his chambers and say, why are you doing this? Don't you understand? You're going to go to jail for decades. Why are you throwing your life away? And he told us it took him a long time to understand these boys want to be heroes. And the school doesn't understand that, but the gang understands that. The gang says, here's a gun. Go and shoot the rival gang leader. And if you succeed, you're a hero. If you get killed trying, you're a hero. If you get thrown in jail, you're a hero. If you chicken out, you're a wuss. And then he looked right at us and he said, most of you, you're not from the barrio and you're thinking, oh, I'm doing great. My son' not going to be in the juvenile justice system. Said, but your son is no different. The difference between your son and the boys, I see your son is staying at home in his bedroom, playing his video games. The difference between your son and the boys in my chambers is your son is playing with pretend guns in his video game. But it's the same. It's the same dynamic, playing with pretend guns, being a pretend hero in his Call of Duty, in his Grand Theft Auto. In both cases, though, your son has left the real world in his fantasy world, wanting to be a hero in his own mind. And I. And that's the same thing that's going on here. We have failed as a society to capture these boys, to give them better models, better ways to become a hero, to be a hero in the right way. And again, that's going back to my book, Boys Adrift, where I talk about good role models, men like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who gave his life for the right cause. Dietrich Bonhoeffer Was a pastor, had a comfortable job preaching in New Jersey in 1938 and left that job and went back to Nazi Germany, put his life in jail in jeopardy, and joined the conspiracy to take the life of Adolf Hitler and was caught and was executed in concentration camp. That's a good man. That's a role model. We're failing at the job of inspiring boys to be the right kind of hero.
- [24:14]
Megyn Kelly
So how do you figure out whether it's that kind of a problem where he is sane and has not suffered a psychotic break, but just is under this delusion that he needs to be a hero somehow and he's got to do it. He's the only one brave enough to do it. Versus oh, no, it's. It's basically a school shooter with a different purpose. He's had a break. It happens often around this age. And, you know, he's lost it. He's. He's no longer of sane mind.
- [24:45]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Okay. I've written about school shooters, and that's a different process in place. There's always been a small minority of boys who take pleasure in killing, take pleasure in inflicting pain. And I wrote an article about this for a magazine called First Things. I called it the unspeakable pleasure. And that's a minority of boys. That's rare, but it happens. And again, that's not insanity. That's a variation on human nature. It's always been with us. But again, we need to know how to capture these boys. We have the game of football. Hey, there's always been boys who enjoy inflicting in pain. Have them play the line. And I was doing this talk at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and it happened that my host used to play the line for University of Wisconsin, Madison. And I called out to him and I said, do you have any comments about that? And he said, a good hit is better than sex. Healthy cultures know how to capture boys and channel those instincts and into healthy channels. It's not insanity. The insanity plea in that case is a cop out. Okay. There are people who truly have psychotic disorders and they hear voices telling them that this person is a lion who's going to eat them and they have to shoot them. That's not what's going on here. That's not what's going on with Luigi Mangione. And that's not what's going on with school shooters. Some inventive lawyers try to make that case. It's unpersuasive. We're not talking here about psychotic disorders and schizophrenics. We're talking about here, about boys who have evil impulses. There's nothing new about this. This is as old as Genesis, chapter 4. Sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you. But you must master at Genesis chapter four.
- [26:39]
Megyn Kelly
What would you guess? And this is a total guess because we don't know much about his family. But you are a parent expert and you know, an actual md and you've been doing this kind of work for decades now. I'm just going to guess, Dr. Sachs, that the Mangione family probably didn't have the dinners around the table together seven nights a week. That's just a stab in the dark.
- [27:01]
Dr. Leonard Sax
You know, I have learned the hard way. It's very hard to speculate about what went on under the roof at home. I do. We do know, we all know that he graduated from a secular high school, a school with no religious affiliation. And the culture has changed. You know, 30 years ago, American popular culture taught right and wrong. We know this. This is not a guess. We have scholars who have looked at American popular culture. The most popular TV shows, 1967, 77, 87, 97, were shows like the Andy Griffith Show, Family Ties, Happy Days, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Researchers have looked at these shows and they found that they consistently taught that the most important thing is to do the right thing, to tell the truth right through 1997. But by 2007, they found American culture had flipped upside down. And the most important thing in the shows that teenagers were watching in 2007 was not to do the right thing. It was to win in shows like American Idol and Survivor.
- [28:07]
Megyn Kelly
The most important thing, I was just
- [28:07]
Dr. Leonard Sax
gonna say Survivor is to win. Doing the right thing, that's gonna get you voted off the island. So American popular culture, beginning in the early 2000s, was no longer about doing the right thing. It's about winning and becoming famous. So American culture is now a post Christian culture. It's no longer a culture in which doing the right thing is taught. And so, you know, 30 years ago, it wasn't so important to go to a school that taught Judaism or Christianity. Now it is. You know, I attended public schools in Ohio, K through 12. But today I think it's more important that you enroll your kid in a school that has a firm moral foundation. And I can tell you many horror stories about public schools that don't and independent schools that don't. And what we do know about Luigi Bagioni is that he went to a secular independent school, the Gilman School, which has no religious Affiliation and now I am speculating, but you go to a secular independent school, they're not teaching the Ten Commandments. They're not teaching, do unto others as you have them do unto you. And boys are adrift. If you don't have that firm foundation, where do you find you're right?
- [29:32]
Megyn Kelly
And then you pen, which is so adrift that its president was forced out last year for not being able to say that it's wrong to chant things like, well, basically, death to Israel, death to the Jews. You know, she's gonna have to really think it over to figure out whether
- [29:48]
Dr. Leonard Sax
that's allowed on streets especially. Boys are adrift and they're looking for, what does it mean to be a man? And you go online and what do you find? You find Andrew Tate, and that's really scary.
- [30:00]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, very scary. So this. Okay, there's so much to go over, but I asked my followers on X today, knowing that you were gonna come on, whether they had anything they wanted me to ask you. And I'll get to some of those questions throughout the course of the two hours. But one of the questions was. And it came up over and over, and I thought, this is actually a really good one. Let me see if I can find the way they put it. But how. How do we help our children in today's day and age with AI, with tech everywhere, with video games and iPhones, how to find purpose, how to find their purpose? I was like, oh, my gosh, that's a big one. It's started to dump that big one on you so soon in our interview. But, you know, to your point, how do you.
- [30:46]
Dr. Leonard Sax
So you have to prioritize the family, and I. You cannot find your child's meaning of life, but you can prioritize that connection. And one of the challenges for kids is that they are looking for life meaning in all the wrong places. They're looking at Instagram and TikTok and Charli D', Amelio, who is this hugely popular person on. On TikTok. And, you know, 1 in 312 year olds now says that their goal in life is to be the next Charlie, to be a TikTok influencer. And that's not a good goal. It's not a good goal because it's not going to happen. And I have met with so many girls who are frustrated because they put all this effort into a TikTok video and it fizzles. They don't understand the numbers. They don't understand that there's 10 million other girls out there who are Posting videos and it's not going to happen. And if your meaning of life is on how many clicks you get on your video, you're going to be frustrated, you're going to be disappointed. You need to find your meaning of life in who you are, not in how many likes you get or how many views or how many followers you have. And so that begins with the family. So you prioritize the family. You, you have family dinners, you fight for dinners at home. And again, many parents are confused and they're driving their kids around to play dates or they're driving their kids to travel, team soccer or computer coding class. Cancel the computer coding class, prioritize family time at home, prioritize the parent child relationship and then the rest will follow once you have the strong family relationship.
- [32:34]
Megyn Kelly
That's so key that I think in today's day and age, many parents are very worried about is junior getting asked on enough play dates or to go hang with his or her friends enough? Is my kid, the kid that's sitting at home with me and my spouse too much? You know, are they popular, are they out there with friends, which is what is considered, quote, normal? And to those parents you say.
- [33:01]
Dr. Leonard Sax
I would say, I would come back to the central key point that I try to make in the new edition of my book, the collapse of parenting, which is that central paradox of American parenting right now, which is that parents are spending more time and more money on their kids than parents have ever done before. But the results are worse than they have ever been. American kids are more likely to be anxious and depressed than they have ever been. They are in worse shape physically than they have ever been. They are less fit than they have ever been. They are heavier than they have ever been. So bluntly, American parents are doing it all wrong because American parents are really confused. They've got the priorities all mixed up. They think that it's really important for kids to have friends who are their own age. It's not that important. It is not that important. We know this. Whether or not your 5 year old or your 10 year old has a lot of other friends their own age is not important. It's not. It's not a predictor of good health, it's not a predictor of happiness. What predicts health and happiness for your 5 year old, for your 10 year old, the parent child relationship is the most important thing. It is, we know this, the data is there. So your first priority should not be driving your kid around to play dates. Your first priority should be building the parent Child relationship. So one of my presentations for parents of young kids is titled Cancel the play date. Make a family date instead. On that Saturday, those precious hours on a Saturday when you actually have some time. Don't drive your kid to a play date. Do something fun with your kid. Go somewhere with your kid. Just you and your kid. Not driving them to a play date, but doing something fun with your kid. Because the parent, the quality of the parent child relationship is the most important predictor of your kid's health and happiness. So focus on that. Don't drive your kid to a play date.
- [34:46]
Megyn Kelly
What does it change when they get to be teenagers?
- [34:49]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Okay, this is where again, a lot of parents are confused. They expect their teenager to push them away and they think that's fine and they, they assume that the parent child relationship is less important for teenagers and it's not, it's more important. And again, parents are like, oh, you know, well, I really believe in privacy. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to monitor what my kid is doing online. Huge mistake, huge mistake. We've got girls who are sending selfies to boys that they don't even know and the parent is not aware of this. And it has life changing bad consequences for girls. You've got to put parental monitoring software on your teenager's phone and say, look, this app is going to see every photograph you take before you even do anything with it. And if there's anything inappropriate, it's going to pop up on my phone. And if you do anything inappropriate, you're going to lose your device indefinitely. Girls don't. So one of the stories I share, 12 year old girl had a 14 year old boyfriend. He asked her to send him some photos. Nothing obscene, just wanted to see her take off her school uniform, blouse and kilt to reveal bra and panties. Of course she knew her parents would not allow this. So she goes into her bedroom, closes the door, locks the door and does as he acts and, and sends the photographs using Snapchat. Now Snapchat claims you can send a photo using a 5 second self destruct and after the recipient has seen the photo, five seconds, it will vanish. And if they try to save the photo using a screenshot, you, the sender will be notified. Snapchat is lying. It knows that there's dozens of free apps out there that will save the photo and the sender will not be notified. The boy of course had installed one of these apps and he saved all the photos. School administrators later determined that he didn't intend for anyone Else to see the photos, but he was at a party and he set his phone down to grab some chips and talk to some friends. Another boy came along, that lockscreen had not engaged. Found the phone, went to the gallery, found the photos, forwarded each of the girls photos to his own phone, posted each of the photos on his own Instagram. Within three days, everybody at the school had seen them. Boys this girl didn't even know were coming up to her and say, hey Emily, how about you do a striptease for us? This girl had a total meltdown. She'd never had any problems before. She'd been invited to a three day ski weekend. The girl, the birthday girl whose parents were hosting the ski weekend, the birthday girl called with this girl and said, you know, I hate to make this phone call but my mom is totally freaking out because all the other moms are freaking out and they're all saying that they won't let their daughter come if you're going to be there because they all think you're now some kind of bad influence. So I have to uninvite you. I'm really sorry. I have to uninvite you. Girl totally melted down, refusing to go to school, saying her life was over, that the photos would always be out there. Which is totally true incidentally. The school administrators made this boy take them down. But by that time 20 other boys had picked up the photos and reposted them. I'm told they're still out there. Started cutting herself with razor blades, saying she wanted to die. The parents took her to the doctor. Doctor diagnosed depression, prescribed Lexapro 10mg and arranged for urgent psychotherapy that accomplished nothing. So you now have a 12 year old girl with depression, not responding to medication or psychotherapy. Who's at fault? The girl, her boyfriend, the other boy? The parents are to blame. Look, this is a very grown up device. With this device I can take a photo and send a photo. And once I send that photo, I have no control over what happens to it, over who sees it. If you're going to put a device like this in the hands of a child, then you are responsible for every photo they take and everyone who sees it. You must install parental monitoring software. If you're going to give a device to a child under 18 and explain to your kid the app is going to see every photo you take. As soon as you take it, if it's anything inappropriate, it's going to pop up on my photo. You're going to lose the device indefinitely and parents will push Back parents will say, look, I believe in privacy. I don't want to see my kid's photo if she doesn't want to see my photo. If she doesn't want me to see her photos, I'm fine with that. I don't want to see her photo if she don't want to see my photo. And say to that parents, look, privacy is great. You want to share a photo privately, here's what you do. You print it out on a piece of photo paper and then you take it over your friend's house and show it to them and then you shred it. That's privacy. There is no such thing as privacy when you share a photo with a phone. And you know who didn't get the memo? Jeff Bezos, one of the world's richest men shared photos with his with his girlfriend and they were leaked. And you know who else didn't get the memo? General David Petraeus. Same story a few years earlier. Had all of his passwords and his two factor authentication. Thought it could not be hacked. Anything can be hacked. The moral of the story of Jeff Bezos and David Petraeus, don't share any photo with a device unless you're prepared for grandma to see it in the newspaper. And you don't share that by preaching that. You communicate that by saying, I've installed an app on your phone. Do not share a photo. Do not take a photo unless you're prepared for everybody to see it. And again, American parents will push back and they'll say, oh come on, my daughter's just going to Google. How do I get around parental controls on that nanny? Well, I've actually spoken with employees at Net Nanny and they told me that they have colleagues whose full time job is to Google the phrase how do I get around parental controls on Net Nanny. And if they find that some kid has found a hole, they patch it, usually within hours and the app will update. You have to install parental monitoring software.
- [40:37]
Megyn Kelly
Explain Nanny the software that you're saying parents can use to monitor the kids.
- [40:43]
Dr. Leonard Sax
It's one of many apps. I'm not endorsing any one app. Ethics and Public Policy Policy center has a wonderful online guide to the different parental monitoring apps. That's Ryan Anderson's Group Ethics and Public Policy Center. They've got a, a good online resource that reviews all the different rental monitoring apps. But yeah, Netnani is one. Bark Circle. There's a bunch of them. I don't endorse any one app. They're all very similar. They'll all give You a dashboard on your phone, they all light up if they see anything inappropriate. But you got to use one of these, you got to install one of these on your kid's phone and explain
- [41:17]
Megyn Kelly
what about Dr. Sacks, the question of privacy? You know, you'll hear parents say, well, I need my child to trust me. And if she doesn't trust me, she's not going to tell me anything. So if she knows I'm sneaking around on her phone or I'm sneaking in her room to read her diary, it's going to blow up to the relationship to where I'm no longer a resource for her.
- [41:38]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Well, you know, the. There's good things and bad things about the American Academy of Pediatrics. But in this domain of, this question of how you balance that question of trust versus the dangers of social media and smartphones, I think the American Academy of Pediatrics in this domain has done some very useful work. They hired all the leading experts who spent two years reviewing all the researchers research and the experts said, look, this is a new world and a new domain of immense risk and toxicity. And for girls, this, the risk is huge. And once those photos are out there, they will never go away. You Google this girl's name, you're still going to find those photos today. It will always be out there. And these girls don't understand the risks. And you have to balance those risks. And the experts said in the official guidelines of the American Academy of Pediatrics, quote, there should be no expectation of privacy when a child or teenager under 18 is online. No expectation of privacy. That's the official guideline of the American Academy of Pediatrics. A device with Internet access should be in a public space like the kitchen or living room. The American Academy of Pediatrics, which is a very left of center organization as we may get to later or. Yeah.
- [43:07]
Megyn Kelly
On the trans insanity in particular.
- [43:09]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes, trans insanity. But in this domain they said a kid should not even have their device in their bedroom. It should be in a kitchen or living room. Because there should be no expectation of privacy when a kid. There's so much bad stuff out there.
- [43:26]
Megyn Kelly
Let me ask you this. Some of my audience wrote in and they know how you feel. They know how I feel about social media use and children. But like John Rich, great singer, music superstar, he actually wrote in on, on my ex account and his question was, I don't have the exact wording in front of me. Hold on. It was what age is okay for social media? Right. With understanding the reality that at some point your child is going to figure out what Snapchat or TikTok or these apps are, at what point would you introduce it to them? Or do you want it to happen while you're there and they're still in the home with you and you can, you can talk about it, or do you wait until they go off to college? What do you think?
- [44:04]
Dr. Leonard Sax
So my brand, if you like, is evidence based. When I make a recommendation, I'm always going to show you a study or series of studies, longitudinal studies, longitudinal cohort studies. You got it. So Gene Twenge is one of our nation's leading researchers. And back in 2019, she and her colleague Keith Campbell did a huge study. 220,000 adolescents. And on the X axis is the time spent on social media, and on the Y axis is the likelihood of becoming anxious or depressed. And there is no rise in that trend line until you get past 30 minutes a day. So 2019, 2020, 2021. I was telling parents, up to 30 minutes a day on social media is fine. But that study was published in 2019 based on research gathered in2018. That's before TikTok. TikTok changed everything. So researchers who study social media talk about basically three generations of social media. So Facebook is first generation. Facebook is about connecting you to people you know or you used to know. You know, on Facebook you can connect with your first grade classmate, whatever. Instagram is second generation. So you not only connect with people you know, you can connect with celebrities. TikTok is third generation. It's totally different. So you go on TikTok, and TikTok begins by saying, I'm not interested in who you know, I'm interested in what you like to watch. Tell me what kind of videos you like to watch. Okay, let me show you some videos. And then the algorithm is watching you. And the algorithm is crazy good. And it starts customizing what it's showing you. And after an hour, you're seeing things you didn't even know were out there. And it's so common to find teenagers to say, whoa, TikTok knew I was gay before I did. TikTok knew I was trans before I did. And then in 2021, researchers reached out to TikTok and said, you know, the algorithm is really dangerous. It's dragging kids, especially girls, down in this rabbit hole. That's valorizing anorexia and self harm. You got to change the algorithm. And TikTok responded, said, okay, we'll change the algorithm. And. And then last year the researchers said, you didn't make it better, you made it worse, it's getting worse. And so I reached out to Gene Twenge and I said, look, look at the more recent studies. There is no safe point anymore that it's shifted left. The danger doesn't begin at 30 minutes anymore. It begins at zero time. And Jean Twenge responded. She sent me back an email saying the research now supports a total ban on social media for all teens, for all children up below 18 years of age. And that is where I am now. The newer research in the era of TikTok, no social media for any kids. We can argue about whether it's 16 or whether it's 18, but the research now strongly supports no social media for any kids kid in the English speaking world under 16 or 18 years of age. And that's, I mentioned the English speaking world because there's an interesting factoid here. You know, everyone's been talking about this rise in anxiety and depression that has occurred in the last 15 years. And John Height and Gene Twenge and others have talked about how, oh, it's all because of the smartphones and the social media. But one thing that John haidt is and jin20 haven't talked about much is that look at Greece, look at Russia. You have not seen that rise in anxiety and depression in Greece and in Russia. Even though kids in Greece and Russia are just as likely to have smartphones, just as likely to have social media, they're not showing the rise in anxiety and depression. Well, what's different? Okay, I've made the argument that American popular culture has become toxic in a way that, that's not true in Greece and Russia. American popular culture has changed in a way that it didn't change in Greece and Russia. American popular culture has become post Christian in a way that has not. I'm not probing up Russia as a, as a role model by any means, but American popular culture is a post Christian culture. It's a toxic culture of envy and disrespect, respect in a way that maybe is not true in Greece and Russia. And I think that's important because just locking down the smartphones is not enough. We also have to offer our kids a healthy, a healthier culture.
- [48:42]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, this is so good to hear. I mean, I feel like we've all experienced this in our day to day lives with the weird competitive strain amongst some kids where they're not rooting with for their friends. They, you know, if, if one friend gets a home run instead of cheering him on, the other teammate is like, put me in, I need to get A home run. You know, it's like, what, what's. This is a weird strain that we're seeing in today's kids too often. And that makes perfect sense. And yeah, I mean, I think I've said this many times about the Russians. I've been over there a few times. And they're actually a very loving people who think wonderful things from about the American people. Our leaders have had obvious conflicts and, you know, we know what's happened in Ukraine. But it's not to demonize the Russian people. If you went and spent time over there, it's still a Christian nation. They still have some fundamental beliefs that we could all get behind. It's our country that's lost its mind culturally. And whenever you say that, they think you're some sort of a Russia file. But that's, that's not what I'm saying. It's not what Tucker has been saying anyway. I, I know it's not what Dr. Sacks is saying. There's so much more to go over. There's tons of questions coming in. By the way, our audience can email me with questions for Dr. Sachs. You can still get on board. It's meganaganekelly.com you can do it right now. And we'll pick back up with him in just two minutes. Don't go away.
- [50:02]
Dr. Leonard Sax
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- [50:17]
Megyn Kelly
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- [51:40]
Dr. Leonard Sax
So in order for parenting to work, parents have to have authority. So I actually begin the new edition with something that happened in the office just as I was writing the new edition. So mom brings her daughter in and she's sick. The six year old girl. Mom explains her daughter has a fever and a sore throat. So after mom explains what's going on, I say, okay, time for me to take a look. Would you please open your mouth and say ah? And daughter shakes her head no. Say, okay, mom, looks like I'm going to need your help here. Would you please ask your daughter to open wide and say ah? And mom says, her body, her choice. Okay, my body, my choice. Longtime slogan of the abortion rights community, more recently adopted by activists opposed to Covid vaccines. Mom is using that slogan to defend her daughter's refusal to allow me, the doctor, to look in her daughter's throat. So that's an extreme example of what I mean by the collapse of parenting. Parents who think it's actually virtuous to let kids decide, that's an extreme example and that's rare. Let me give you a much more common, much more common example of what I mean by the collapse of parenting. So, boys not paying attention in school. 13 year old boy not paying attention in school. Totally not paying attention off the chart. On what's called the Connor Scales, which is the teacher's rating. This kid's not paying attention in any class. Parents take them to the child psychiatrist. Child psychiatrist says, well, attention deficit disorder. Let's try Vyvanse. Vyvanse medication, tremendously helpful. Boy's now doing great, but he's jittery, totally lost appetite, palpitations. Parents see this article I wrote for Time magazine about the dangers of these medications. They bring them to me for a second opinion and I do a more careful sleep study. I asked the boy, excuse me, I do a more careful sleep history. I asked the boy, do you have a video game console in your bedroom? He said, of course. Doesn't everybody? I said, were you playing video games last night? He said, of course, wasn't everybody. When did you finish? Oh, like 1:32 and mom's like 1:30. You were playing video games 1:38 in the morning. What were you playing? Oh, RDR2. Excellent game. All right. So I say to mom, you got to get the video game console out of his bedroom. No video game. No video games. And you got to limit how much time you spend in playing video games. You know, max 30 minutes a night on school nights. And no video games after 9:00 clock at night and no video game console in the bedroom. And mom says, I couldn't take the video game console out of his bedroom. He totally freak out. This is a parent who is unwilling to limit how much time her son is spending playing video games. She is uncomfortable exercising her authority. That is very common. And that is also what I mean by the collapse of parenting. Parents who are uncomfortable exercising their authority. And as a result, this kid is not paying attention in class. He doesn't have attention deficit disorder. He's sleep deprived. Sleep deprivation perfectly mimics attention deficit disorder of the inattentive variety. Vyvanse was immensely helpful. What's Vyvanse? What's Adderall? They're amphetamines. They're speed. They compensate for the sleep deprivation. But the appropriate remedy for sleep deprivation is sleep, not Schedule 2amphetamines. And the psychiatrist failed to do a careful sleep history. And this is happening all the time. And I see this a lot as a family doctor, these kids who are being medicated because the parents are not doing their job. That's why that's happening.
- [55:22]
Megyn Kelly
How about the, the, the drive for good grades is. I had one parent right in saying, how hard should I push my teenager in today's day and age, with kids suffering from anxiety? You know, if my kid is like, I'm striving for bees, do I just say, good for you, honey. You know, do what you think is right. Or do I say, well, why not A's? You know, maybe, maybe you don't have to play two and a half hours of basketball. Maybe you could take one of those hours and go for an A. But parents are almost afraid to do that now because, you know, our kids are all so stressed out.
- [56:00]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Well, when I speak to parents, I do a lot of presentations for parents. And this is okay. I don't want to come across the wrong way. I'm not. The book is not a rant against bad parents. The objective of the book is to empower the parents to exercise their authority, to encourage that parent to do the right thing, to do what you know you should do. That's what I'm trying to do there. So you asked about grades. So when I speak to parents, either individually or in groups, I will often say, I'll mention a longitudinal cohort study, which is, say, where you follow kids from childhood through adolescence all the way to 32, 40, 50 years of age. What characteristic of a child best predicts good outcomes at 30, 40, 50 years of age? Is it the grades that they got? No, it's not. It's character. It's honesty. It's self control. So it follows from that that our top priority as parents is not top grades. It's honesty and self control. So good grades are great. There's nothing wrong with that. But character and self control and honesty are more important. And, you know, as a family doctor, I've seen a big change. Twenty years ago, parents were more likely to say, I'd rather you get a C on the test honestly than cheat and get an A. And that's the right thing to say. Today I hear parents who say, hey, you want to get into top university, you've got to have amazing grades. And there has been a rise in cheating over the last 20 years, which I document. So you gotta be very cautious about emphasizing good grades because a lot of kids are getting the wrong message. And there has been a rise in cheating among American kids over the last 20 years.
- [57:54]
Megyn Kelly
That was one of the things that the Menendez parents allegedly told their kids before they killed them. You've got to get straight A's. You have to win, period. It doesn't matter how you do it. You can cheat, you can steal. Fine, that what's important is to win. Just don't get caught. And it was kind of a fascinating thing and didn't end well.
- [58:13]
Dr. Leonard Sax
We're losing that moral compass. Being a good person and doing the right thing, even if it hurts, is more important than winning, more important than getting a good mark. Again, that was the lesson of the Andy Griffith Show a long, long time ago. It was the lesson of Happy Days and Family ties. It used to be the lesson that kids would get from American television. It's not the lesson they get anymore, but it's a lesson that you, as the parent, have to teach.
- [58:44]
Megyn Kelly
But how do you teach drive?
- [58:49]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Okay. How do you teach motivation? This is a real problem, and there's a lot more going on than cultural factors are part of it. And some of this is gender specific. So now let's talk about boys. Testosterone levels have dropped a lot in the last 50 years and even in the last 20 years. And that's a major focus of my book, Boys Adrift. And a lot of this is due to endocrine disruptors. And turns out that boys depend on testosterone for drive. Girls don't. And so, yeah, I think that is part of the story. And, you know, when I first started looking into this years ago, it sounded kind of weird, but there is actually very good research, and I actually wrote a paper for the National Institutes of Health, published in their scholarly journal, on this topic, about how plastic bottles, the kind that people drink bottled water out of, actually contain endocrine disruptors like diet, that lower testosterone levels. So your son shouldn't be drinking water out of a plastic bottle. You should pour tap water into a steel canteen, and that's what you want to be drinking your. Your water out of. Don't microwave in plastic. It doesn't cost anything to follow these guidelines. But. And. And it. And it fixes the testosterone levels. So, yeah, there's. There's different factors that affect. That's why I wrote a book called Boys called Boys Adrift and a book for girls called Girls on the Edge, because the fact.
- [60:30]
Megyn Kelly
Another book called why Gender.
- [60:33]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes.
- [60:34]
Bill Stanton
Whoa.
- [60:34]
Dr. Leonard Sax
You've really done your homework. I appreciate that.
- [60:36]
Megyn Kelly
I read that when it came out, Dr. Sacks, and I remember finding it so fascinating, and when the trans insanity exploded, I was like, this is the one guy I want to talk to, because he wrote before all this nonsense that there are two different sexes. They are very, very different, and it matters. And now we're told no, it's completely, you know, interchangeable.
- [60:56]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yeah, well, and there's been a lot of change there. The first edition of why Gender Matters had half a paragraph on transgender, and then the publisher, Penguin Random House, asked me to write a new edition, which I devote a lot of time to transgender, because now it's a thing.
- [61:14]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, but I know you've been making the point. You make the point here, too, that the male brain and the female brain are very, very different, and that parents must understand that. Yes. And even the trans activists should be honest about this. Like, if you want to parade around trying to look like a woman, that's your choice. But don't try to tell me that because you feel like a woman even though you're a man, you just are. Because this. All the studies show that your brain is different. You are. Yes, your body's different, but your brain is different. And. And you make the point in this book that parents need to understand that, too, because you. And you look at your child, your boy child, and you interpret his behavior one way. Way, because you have an older sister to that boy who at this stage, was doing things very, very differently. Maybe at a rapid, you know, pace compared to the boy. And you're making no allowances for why gender matters.
- [62:07]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes. So absolutely. So you, in my book why Gender Matters, I, I remind parents that girls develop faster than boys. So if you have an older daughter, younger son, don't compare your son to your daughter. And again from my own practice, parent of a 18 month old boy said, you know, when my daughter was 18 months old, I could bounce her on my knee and I'd say goo goo gaga and she'd say goo goo gaga. And I'd say eeoo. And she'd say eeoo. And we could do that for like 20 minutes. We just crack each other up. We'd have so much fun just making nonsense syllables. And I tried that with my son and somebody was riding their bike past the front door and he went and looked at that and then the house made a noise and he went and looked at that. He's very distractible. And I googled that and it said it could be a sign of autism. It could be a sign of autism. What do you think? Could it be a sign of autism? I said, well, could be, but it could also be a sign of boy. But I could not reassure her and she insisted on a formal evaluation. So I said, all right. Treatment learning centers in Rockville, they're very good at play based assessment for toddlers. I shouldn't have done that. That was a big mistake on my part. She went there and she came back in tears. She said, they're very concerned. They said his vocabulary is below average compared to the average 18 month old. The average 18 month old should have a vocabulary of 65 words. They estimate he only has a vocabulary of 40 words. Well, actually, research shows the average 90 average 18 month old girl has a vocabulary of 90 words. Average 18 month old boy has a vocabulary of 40 words. So let's consider that statement. The average 18 month old child has a vocabulary 65 words. Okay, 90 plus 40 is 130. 130 divided by 2 is 65. The average 18 month old child Has a vocabulary of 65 words. That's a true statement. But it's completely meaningless because a child is either a boy or girl. You've got to compare boys to boys and girls to girls. There's nothing wrong with this boy and he's perfectly fine. And this was years ago. He's gone on to be totally fine. He does not have autism. He's not on the spectrum. So yeah, if you have an older daughter, younger son, don't compare your, your Son to your daughter. Compare boys to boys and girls to girls.
- [64:23]
Megyn Kelly
Let's talk about autism for a second because it's of course, very much in the news. And we, with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Up for potential HHS chief, he's been saying, you know, is it environmental? There's so many toxins around us from the microplastics, which you just mentioned, to the pollutants in our air, in our soil and so on, on our food. He thinks it's too much toxic overload. You have a different possibility that we should be considering for the explosion in autism over the past decade or so.
- [64:57]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes, and there is an explosion. So the Journal of the American Medical association, jama, one of our nation's leading scholarly journals, just a few weeks ago published a study, looked at the diagnosis of autism in this country in 2011 compared with 2022, and found in those 11 years between 2011 and 2022, the diagnosis for autism for children 35 to 8 years of age tripled. Why? Well, the authors of the study didn't suggest why, but the mainstream, the official explanation is improved awareness and screening. Okay, I'm not buying that. I'm not buying it because I'm a family doctor and I'm seeing firsthand what's going on. And I can tell you, okay, autism is a spectrum. At one end we've got the severely impaired kid who is not talking, not verbal, profoundly impaired. And there has been a rise there. And at that severe end, you know, I might actually agree with RFK Jr that there's toxins in the environment and something bad is happening there. That's not the kid I'm talking about. What's going on at the other end? The kid who is functioning, the kid who is in school, but he's now being labeled as being on the spectrum. Okay, here's something that I actually know something about because I'm seeing this. Let's think about this 8 year old boy who's defiant, who's disrespectful, who spits, who bites. Twenty years ago, the teacher would have said to the parents, look, this is totally unacceptable. Your son is rude. When the teacher says to the parents, your son is rude. The burden of responsibility is on the parents. They have to step up. They have to teach their son, okay, you need to behave differently or else. But today, same boy, same behavior. The teacher is much more likely to say something like, your son seems to have a deficit in social awareness skills. Have you thought of having him evaluated? And he goes and he gets evaluated and sure, Enough. He gets labeled as being on the spectrum. Well, you know what? He's not on the spectrum. He's a rude, disrespectful boy immersed in this culture.
- [67:20]
Megyn Kelly
He's just rude.
- [67:22]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes, because the culture has changed. And the first chapter, the new edition of my book, the Collapse of Parenting is the titled the Culture of Disrespect. In my own practice, a mom of an 8 year old boy said, can you explain to me what's going on with our son? His father and I never talk this way and he thinks it's funny to be disrespectful and talk back. And I said to mom, I said, do you guys have the Disney channel, Nickelodeon, Nick Jr. And she said, of course. I said, lock it down, turn off, do not allow Disney, Disney Junior, Nickelodeon, Nick Junior don't allow it. And it stopped. Disney and Nickelodeon, they are teaching kids that it's cute, that it's funny to be disrespectful to talk back. And mom called me three weeks later and she said it stopped. These shows are teaching kids that it's cute and funny to be disrespectful and to talk back. And the culture has become a culture of disrespect. And it's not just Disney Junior, you know, Lin Nas X had this huge song, old Town Road, 12 weeks, 12 consecutive weeks at number one, the most popular song in the United States. And he sings, can nobody tell me nothing? You can't tell me nothing. You know, Bill Maher earlier this year had a huge bestseller with his book. And he observes in his book, young people are beautiful but stupid. Old people are ugly, but more likely to be wise. So he continues, any successful culture will teach the young people to respect the old people so that they can learn, so the beautiful young people can learn from the wise old people. You can't tell me nothing. Can nobody tell me nothing. This new culture of disrespect, where American popular culture, from the Disney Channel to the most popular songs to TikTok and Instagram, breaks bonds across, across generation. You can't tell me nothing. If you can't tell me nothing, why go to school, why go to church? The, the new American culture of disrespect breaks bonds across generations. And the result is kids in their bedroom looking at screens who want nothing to do with their parents, nothing to do with church. And the result is kids who are adrift. And this is a major factor driving this growing generation of kids who are adrift and looking for meaning.
- [69:55]
Megyn Kelly
This is in our own Family, it's a hard line. If the talk towards myself or my husband gets disrespectful, they will get punished and they know it. You know, we're not, they're usually very good kids. We don't have a ton of opportunity to punish them. But you know, that's smart. Talk back to the parent. That's extremely disrespectful. We will punish them for that. But for this very reason. There have to be like societal boundaries within which we play. And if you're a child, you're speaking to an adult all the more. So this reminded me, just ask my team to pull it over of a bit. James Carville did after the election. You know the Bill Clinton aide who helped get him elected. And you know, he's a Southerner, he's a Louisiana boy through and through. And he's not woke, he's a leftist Democrat, but he is not a woke guy. And he had, he went on a rant about young people within the campaign, the Democratic Party who think they know everything because someone hasn't set those guardrails for them. On understanding, respect and respect for one's elders and that one doesn't know everything, especially as a young person. It's a great bet. We haven't had a chance to play it for the audience. Here it is.
- [71:02]
Dr. Leonard Sax
The Vice President was thinking about going on Joe Rogan show and a lot of the younger progressive staffers pitched a hissy fit. Supposedly the campaign said that that wasn't determined effective. But they did. When you put a campaign together and you hire young people to do work, let me tell you exactly what you tell these people, what I would tell them. Not only am I not interested in your fucking opinion, I'm not even going to call you by your name. You're 23 years old. I don't really give a what you think. If I were running a 2028 campaign and I had some little snot nosed 23 year old saying I'm going to resign if you don't do this, not only would I fire that on the spot, I would find out who hired them and fire that person on the spot.
- [71:57]
Megyn Kelly
That's amazing. What do you make of it, Dr. Sachs?
- [72:03]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Well, he speaks very emphatically but indeed I do think that we need young people to respect their elders. And the anthropologist would agree with Bamar. Every successful culture teaches young people to respect their elders. And we used to do that too. As recently as 20, 30 years ago, American culture was a culture of respect. And the most popular TV shows like the Andy Griffith show in the 1960s, even Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the 1990s.
- [72:37]
Megyn Kelly
Little House on the Prairie.
- [72:39]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes. Were shows that taught that had those strong connections across generations. We have lost that. And, you know, you and I cannot change Hollywood, but we can create a culture of respect in our own home. And again, that's what I'm trying to do in my book, the. The Collapse of Parenting. We can't change Hollywood, but we can. I'm trying to encourage parents and give parents some guidance. How do you do that in your own home? You've got to create that culture of respect within your own home, and you've got to be confident asserting authority in your own home. It's not about discipline. It's about creating those bonds of love and respect across the generations.
- [73:19]
Megyn Kelly
This is reminding me, too, of the way we speak to our children today. Or the way we're told we should speak to them today is just so vastly different from how my parents spoke to me when I was growing up and just, you know, a couple generations ago. The way it was. You know, you. You can make the case against the way parents like mine, my mom Linda, who I adore, you know, lines like stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. Okay, that may have been a little far on the spectrum, but today we've gone so far around the bend that we have lost our authority. And we're. I don't know what kind of psycho babble these young parents are listening to, but it's encapsulated in this bit that was going around Instagram recently. This is like a. A prepared bit between what looks like a mom and daughter acting, but it captures it perfectly. Watch.
- [74:08]
Sarah Edmondson
Be careful. We don't say be careful anymore. Instead, say, what's your plan here? I don't even know my plan. Do you know your plan? Don't stop.
- [74:16]
Megyn Kelly
Hit your sister. Don't say stop. Say gentle.
- [74:18]
Sarah Edmondson
Gentle to what? Gentle hands. Gentle hands is gentle.
- [74:22]
Megyn Kelly
Everything gentle. Everything.
- [74:24]
Sarah Edmondson
I am so proud of you.
- [74:25]
Megyn Kelly
I'm not supposed to tell kids you're proud of them anymore. Why not? Well, that's putting the focus on you. What? I'm so proud.
- [74:31]
Sarah Edmondson
Don't say that.
- [74:31]
Megyn Kelly
Should I say instead? You should be so proud.
- [74:33]
Sarah Edmondson
I am so proud.
- [74:35]
Megyn Kelly
It's back on you again. Hurry up.
- [74:36]
Sarah Edmondson
We gotta go.
- [74:37]
Dr. Leonard Sax
No rush.
- [74:37]
Megyn Kelly
We're fine. Don't rush. Fine.
- [74:38]
Sarah Edmondson
I thought we were.
- [74:39]
Megyn Kelly
Not hurry.
- [74:39]
Sarah Edmondson
If you rush children, it makes them anxious.
- [74:42]
Megyn Kelly
Don't worry. You always rushed us, and I'm anxious.
- [74:44]
Sarah Edmondson
Never rushed you. We were always Late.
- [74:47]
Megyn Kelly
Exactly. And I was anxious because we were always late. Am I supposed to say then gentle this way?
- [74:56]
Sarah Edmondson
Good job.
- [74:57]
Megyn Kelly
Good choice.
- [74:58]
Sarah Edmondson
Thank you.
- [74:58]
Megyn Kelly
No, say good choice.
- [75:01]
Sarah Edmondson
Watch out. Do you feel safe here? I don't feel safe about it. Of this.
- [75:07]
Megyn Kelly
Watch out. No, it's. Do you feel safe here? I'm sure you've seen a lot of this too. Yeah.
- [75:13]
Dr. Leonard Sax
So that's a riff on gentle, gentle parenting, which I talk about in the new edition, which really wasn't a thing ten years ago, but it certainly is now. Gentle parenting means letting kids decide, gentle parenting means that. That good parenting means letting kids decide and gentle parenting means is profoundly harmful. And again, in the new edition, I present a lot of evidence that that is so because the kids often are mistaken. And you know, what is childhood for? I mean, literally a four year old child has barely begun. A four year old horse is a mature adult. And a horse is a bigger animal than a human. So it can't just be about biological maturity because a horse, as I said, is a bigger animal and a horse is fully mature by four years of age. A human is developing, is immature for more years than most animals live. Why? Why does it take so long? We don't have to guess. We have scholars like Dr. Melvin Connor at Emory, who spent his entire career, decades studying this question, published this huge tome of 800 pages, Oxford University Press, titled the Evolution of Childhood, comparing development at our species with development in other species. And the answer he gives, the reason it takes so many years is that it takes many years for parents to teach the child right and wrong. And so I cite a column by a longtime columnist for the New York Times, Jennifer Finney Boylan, who wrote a column about enlightened parenting in which she asserts, and I'm quoting, that she says that enlightened parenting means, and I quote, setting your child free to discover for themselves their own right and wrong. And if in so doing your child becomes a stranger to you, then so be it. That may seem enlightened to some, but it's not enlightened. It's a dereliction of duty. If you set your child free to discover for themselves their own right and wrong and they have a device with Internet access, what they will discover is Drake and Bruno Mars and Megan Thee stallion and Cardi B and transgenderism and mainstream pornography. Your job is to teach your child right and wrong, to inscribe your law on the hearts of your child. That's Deuteronomy 6. That's your job as a parent. Don't set your child Loose to discover for themselves their own right and wrong. That's a dereliction of duty. Don't listen to the New York Times. Don't listen to National Public Radio. Do your job as a parent. That's the message I'm trying to communicate in my book, the Collapse of Parenting.
- [77:53]
Megyn Kelly
It's, it's reminding me at our school, at our son's school, it's an all boys school. They understand that students will make bad decisions and they'll do stupid things sometimes, but the thing that will really get you expelled quickly is if you get called in to the head of school's office and you lie about what you did. Like, he, he's not calling you in there unless he's got you dead to rights about half the time. They've got cameras in the school, so he's already seen what you've done. And if you lie, you're out. He's pretty hardcore about that. If you own up to it and confess you were a numbskull, you know, you did something really stupid, you're sorry, you will live to fight another day. But it's a. To your point, it's about the value system. Like honesty is a. It's just a deal breaker. You can't, we can't have anything, can't have character if we don't have that fundamental basic honesty. Can I ask you something else? Another audience member asked. How do I know at what age I can start talking to my kids more as adults, you know, being honest with them about my own thought process and why I'm not going to allow them to do this thing that they want to do or about the problems as I see it, in the family, outside, whatever. Like, how does one know what level of dialogue to have with one's kid?
- [79:10]
Dr. Leonard Sax
I think it really varies from one child to the next. And as a rule, girls mature faster than boys do. Girls reach full maturity in brains development by about 22 years of age. Boys don't reach maturity in brain development until 30 years of age. That explains a lot if you think about it. And when in doubt, wait. I find a lot of parents that I think are confiding too early. And I know a boy who was very insecure because his mom was confiding. A single mom was confiding in her son about how they were broke and he took that literally and he thought that they literally didn't have money for food. And he was very insecure until he graduated and went off to college and realized that they actually were not that broke. And again, parents and sometimes single parents are a little bit more prone to this because they don't have an adult confidant. Sometimes I've observed as a family doctor, they confide in their kids because they don't have a partner to confide in. And they're confiding in their 12 year old when maybe they shouldn't be. And as a result, that 12 year old is insecure, more insecure than they have to be. So when in doubt, keep it to yourself is one general rule I've learned.
- [80:41]
Megyn Kelly
I seem to remember you being a big proponent of chores and responsibilities for kids. Does that extend to. I had one audience member ask about to what extent is it appropriate for me to ask the older kids to help me with the younger kids? Because older kids have responsibilities of their own and they have grades they have to keep up and they have sports they have to make. And like, is it a dereliction of your parental duty to sort of to fold in the older ones to help with the younger ones, or is that a good thing?
- [81:10]
Dr. Leonard Sax
No. So there's a whole chapter in the new edition titled Humility, which I call the most un American of virtues. You know, Justin Bieber had a big hit a few years back where he's saying, I'm going to light up the sky like lightning and this world will belong to me. Being proud and standing tall and this world will belong to me. Those are very American characteristics. But we now have all these studies where researchers find that the kid with the highest self esteem at 15 years of age is that individual who's most likely to be resentful and frustrated 10 years down the road. Because if I'm so amazing at 15, how come I'm working for a low wage in a cubicle at 25 years of age? Actually, one of the best predictors of happiness and contentment at 15 years of age is humility. Being humble and yes, absolutely. And you'll find that research in my book the Collapse of Parenting. Being humble, being grateful, powerfully and accurately predicts happiness and contentment. How do you teach humility? And again, parents are confused. They don't get this at all. When I speak to parents about the virtue of humility during question and answer, a mother said, I don't want to teach my daughter to be humble. That's ridiculous. I wanted to have my daughter to have high self esteem, so when that big job opportunity comes along, she'll go for it. I want to teach my daughter be humble. That's ridiculous. I said, mom, with all due respect, you're confused you're confusing being humble with being timid. Those are not the same thing. They're very nearly opposites. And the virtue you want for your daughter in the situation you're describing, when a big job opportunity comes along, the virtue you want for your daughter is not high self esteem. The virtue you want for your daughter in that situation is courage. Courage means you know your inadequacies, your failures, your shortcomings, and you find the strength to move forward anyhow. There is no courage without fear. High self esteem is not the virtue that you're looking for. High self esteem leads to frustration and resentment. And I can tell you this firsthand. I had a girl in my own practice who at age 15 had very high self esteem. She wrote a short story and her English teacher wrote on it a you have a spark of the divine fire. And she went on to write several novels. Couldn't get an agent, couldn't get a publisher. And at 23 years of age, she is seething with resentment and frustration and envy. Why did that girl get her novel published? I can't even get an agent. I can't get a publisher. High self esteem leads to frustration and envy. So you want to teach humility? Yes, you do. How do you teach humility? The right kind of humility begins with chores. It begins with chores. And again, many parents don't get this. Many parents don't get this. And they're like, okay, I want my daughter to get good grades, you know, and we have, we have, you know, we have the resources. We can hire a housekeeper. My daughter's job is school. Her job is school. So we can hire a housekeeper to do the chores. Many parents have said this to me and the unintended, the message they're sending to their daughter is, you're too important to make your bed. Don't do that. Don't send that message. Don't send that message. Chores is a great way to teach humility. And throughout the book, I follow the Phillips family, family I've known now for 30 years. And it's an amazing story of an amazing family, Bill and Janet Phillips and their four sons. And I've been in touch with this family now for 30 years. And it's an affluent family, a big home mansion in Potomac, Maryland. And they had the money. They could have hired landscapers, but they didn't. They insisted that their four sons do all the chores.
- [85:17]
Megyn Kelly
And.
- [85:17]
Dr. Leonard Sax
And I asked Shannon, why did you do that? And she said, yeah, we could have hired landscapers, but I wanted them to learn the meaning of Work, the value of work. And I quoted from her words in the book that, yeah, even if you have the money, you need to teach your kid to do this. And her son Andrew, really one of the most amazing athletes I ever knew, have ever known in my 30 years as a family doctor, was a recruited by Stanford, played on the Stanford football team alongside Andrew Luck. But he was playing at the Maryland program after 10th grade in high school. And the coach there had just said what a great football player was and how he wanted to recruit him to play in Maryland. And his father said, oh, Andrew, I didn't tell you, you're going to be working on one of my boats this summer. He owned a fishing business, scraping guts off the deck. And Andrew was so upset, he wanted to do all this fun stuff this summer. And instead he's scraping dead fish off of a salmon fishing boat next to this guy who's just been released from prison, a convicted felon, drug dealer, Mexican, who's talking about coming to Jesus in the state penitentiary. But Andrew said, you know, I learned something working alongside this drug dealer who's come to Jesus. Something I would never have learned at, you know, the upscale camp, learning about the value of hard work, learning humility. Humility, the most un American of virtues. You need to teach your kid humility. Humility leads to contentment and happiness.
- [87:05]
Megyn Kelly
Use the kids, use the olders to take care of the youngers, and use them around the house and use them on everything. I think it feels very foreign to think of a parent, you know, if your child is like, I really think I'm gonna do something great in this world. Like, to be like, now, my mother would have said, you might and you might not. We really haven't seen any signs that you'll do that yet. But, you know, good luck. That's truly. That's how my mom raised me. But I feel like I couldn't say that to my child. I don't know what I think I'd probably say, yes, you will, sweetheart. I don't. What. How would you handle expressions of. From a child of, you know, hope about their own future like that? Like, I. I see myself as destined for something wonderful. I don't. Whatever. However you want to phrase it.
- [87:55]
Dr. Leonard Sax
I would encourage my child to have their loves properly ordered. It's a phrase going back to St. Augustine to love God first make sure you want the right things for the right reasons. So if my daughter, for example, wanted to be an actress, why do you want to be an actress? You want to be an actress because you're inspired by the challenge of trying to become someone else and to get inside that person's head and persuade the audience that you are that person. That's great. That is great. And I totally support that and endorse that. If you want to be an actress because you want to be rich and famous, that's the wrong reason. Why do you want this? What are you in this for? Know yourself. Know your motivation. Want the right things for the right reasons. You got to dig down deeply, know who you are, and be headed in the right direction for the right reason.
- [88:56]
Megyn Kelly
Got to know yourself so good. I've been thinking about my mom a lot lately. She just came for a visit. She's hilarious. And there was this meme going around on Instagram that read as follows. I'm going to botch it a little bit. It was something to the effect of the hardest thing about being a mom or a parent is you are raising the one thing you can't live without to be able to live without you. And of course I was like, oh, my God, it's true. This is heartbreaking. You know, instant lump in the throat and tears welling. And I'm sentimental like that. My mom actually was in for a visit and my daughter was in a play. So we went and I showed it to my mom, who's 83 now, and she laughed like Linda. It's just, she's tough. And she raised me in a tough way. But it worked out, you know? And I think about all this stuff, like, I never was told I had to get straight A's. I didn't get straight A's. No one ever hassled me over it. I was never told I was special. It was all the opposite stuff that now I've sort of been making fun of for the past 20 years. But you know what, Doc? Maybe my mom was onto something. I don't know.
- [90:09]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yeah, it reminds me of my own mom, the late Dr. Janet Sachs, pediatrician. And I was the youngest of three boys. And I remember when we were at a friend's house and one of the other moms said, oh, Jackie, your youngest is going to be leaving soon to go to college. And she said very coolly, she said, well, they do grow up, you know, that this is what's supposed to happen. But again, a lot of parents are confused about this. And again, in my own practice, practice, husband and wife were planning a ski vacation and they wanted their 13 year old to come with them. And she said, well, you know, I'm not that big on Skiing. How about if I just stay at Arden's house? You, you and dad go away and I'll stay at Arden's house. And mom was very proud of this and she was boasting to me that her daughter did not go on the ski vacation. And I said, that's not good. You should have insisted that she come with you. At age 13, your daughter's primary attachment should be to you, the parents. And again, parents are confused. At age 13, the primary attachment should still be to the parents. When that attachment breaks too soon and her primary attachment is to her 13 year old friend, that's too soon because her primary attachment at that age should still be to her parents parents. When it breaks too soon, what age
- [91:37]
Megyn Kelly
is not too soon?
- [91:39]
Dr. Leonard Sax
18, 18. At 13, 14, 15, 16 years of age, the primary attachment should still be to the parents. And we've got so much research now showing that when it breaks Too soon at 23 years of age now, that girl's still now going to be texting her parents and saying, I don't know what to do. What should I do, mom? And we've got so many of these stories now. And not just stories, we've got data. We've got this explosion of kids in their 20s and even 30s who are now living with their parents. There are more 30 year olds living with their parents than has ever been the case in American history. It's a weird demographic reversal of failure to launch of young people who now are unable to to live independently because the ACORN broke open too early is the analogy I use in the new edition of the Collapse of Parenting. These kids broke out on their own at 12 years of age and went and hung out with their primary attachment was their 12 year old peers at 12, 13, 14, 16 years of age. And now at 25 years of age, they don't know how to live independently. The they did not develop.
- [92:59]
Megyn Kelly
Let me ask you this. So I got to take a break, but I want to ask you this question when I come back. So how did any of us who were raised in the 70s or before survive? Because most of us had parents who totally ignored us and they were not the primary person really in our lives. We were kind of alone and independent, latchkey. But we wound up okay. Oh, that's a tease. More with Dr. Sacks right after this. So Doc, what do you make of that? So those of us who grew up in the 70s pretty much without parents, who turned out fine?
- [93:30]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Absolutely. It was a much healthier culture. We're talking about the culture of the Andy Griffith Show, Happy Days, Family Ties. And again, this is not a guess, this is not nostalgia. And I talk about this in the book and I talk about how the culture has changed and the culture of the last 15 years has become a much more toxic culture, culture of envy and disrespect. And this is why the burden on parents now is much greater. Because now they have to do much more. They have to do things that your parents never had to do. They have to provide a culture which your parents didn't have to do. Your parents didn't have to be there for that. But now parents today have to do so much more. They have not only to provide a culture, they have to block out all the toxicity and harm of the bad toxic culture of the Disney channel and of TikTok and Instagram, and they have to provide a good, healthy culture and they don't even know it. Many parents are not even aware of all the bad things that the culture is doing. So again, the mission of the book, the objective of the book is to wake parents up, to make them aware that, look, your TV is an agent of this really bad culture. And you don't have to turn off the tv, but block out the Disney Channel. Home and garden television, that's okay. The History Channel is okay, but not the Disney Channel. And your laptop is fine. You can watch the Megyn Kelly show, but not YouTube. YouTube is spreading a lot of really bad stuff. If you're going to watch YouTube, make sure you're there. You can watch the Megyn Kelly show, but not, not, not Andrew Tate, for goodness sake. Oh my gosh. So warning parents to block out the bad stuff to all the things that you got to know now as a parent, because American culture has changed. That's why it's so important.
- [95:30]
Megyn Kelly
We have two minutes left with the SiriusXM audience. We're gonna continue this over on podcast and you YouTube.com Megan Kelly. But in the two minutes we have left, one of our audience members wrote in how do I deprogram a kid from the woke mind virus without losing them? You know, in our family we've done a pre inoculation against it, but a lot of parents got swept. Their kids got swept into this, you know, when they didn't even know to inoculate them. So what's the answer to that one?
- [96:00]
Dr. Leonard Sax
I've got a chapter in the book for that parent and the chapter is titled Enjoy. And actually the new chapter is titled Joy J O Y. And basically I would say do a vacation, just you and your Kid, you and your family together, go someplace fun and do something fun with your kid. And they may be kicking and screaming. And I describe a father and son where exactly that happened. And the son didn't want to go and was kicking and screaming, didn't want to go. That has actually worked. That is the one thing that has actually worked. Just doing fun things together with your kid, not lecturing them, just doing fun things with your kid is the is the natural God given way to reconnect with your child.
- [96:50]
Megyn Kelly
Wow, that's excellent. The more it's back to your core message, more time with you, more time around the dinner table, more time with your values and bonding with you and re establishing that close relationship. And I know we talked about last time, don't vacation with your children's friends. No, they cannot bring a friend on the vacay. That's right. Those are for families to reconnect with one another because those relationships are so critical to your child's wellness for reasons like this. So speaking of the woke mind virus, part of what it does is teaches children to prioritize identity over everything. Skin color or some alleged weird sexual proclivity or some alleged gender spectrum nonsense. But it also leans in to any weakness, illness, alleged mental defect. You know, I was saying not long ago, it's so in today's day and age, your kid cannot get into a good college by writing. I came from a loving family where I was raised with great values and two present loving parents who were there for me to set boundaries. You've gotta say you've got some phobia, some issue. And there's a chapter in the book called what is. It's about normaphobia, normophobia. So can you explain that?
- [98:12]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes, absolutely. So 15 years ago I wrote a book called Girls on the Edge. And the girls I interviewed back then wanted to be effortlessly perfect. That was a thing back in 2009. And then more recently the publisher asked me to write an updated version and I found that girls today don't want to be effortlessly perfect. That's boring. That's lame. That's basic white bitch and who wants to be that? And the words that kids use on social media that they teach others to use kind of reinforce that. Are you gendered conforming or are you gendered non conforming? Well, who wants to be conforming? Are you neurodivergent or are you neurotypical? Who wants to be typical? That's boring. Divergent. Who wants to be typical and conforming? You want to be divergent and Non conforming. And so Mary Harrington has coined this term normaphobia. Kids don't want to be normal. And this is a growing issue. It's not true of all kids, but it's true of a growing number of kids. They don't want to be normal. It's not cool to be normal. You got to have and this is really something that has spread on American social media, on TikTok and Instagram. You got to talk about how you are anxious, how you're depressed, or how you're struggling with your gender identity or how you're wrestling with being trans or you're non binary or whatever. You know. 70 years ago, CS Lewis wrote this book for kids, the Magician's Nephew. And he said the problem about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed, succeed and substitute stupider for anxious or depressed. The trouble with trying to make yourself more anxious or more depressed than you really are is that you very often succeed. The whole point of cognitive behavioral therapy is that a big part of being anxious and depressed is that you're making yourself anxious and depressed. And as a psychologist and a family doctor, I can tell you a lot of these kids are making themselves anxious and depressed. They're talking themselves into being anxious. And again we mentioned earlier that why is this not being seen in Greece and Russia? Well, I don't speak Greek or Russian, but I talk with people who do. And I can tell you this is not a thing in Greece and Russia. Greek and Russian kids don't see anything cool about talking themselves into being anxious and depressed. This is a uniquely American, English speaking world weirdness. I just came from Canada where this is definitely a thing as well. And American parents need to understand how toxic and how weird this is. We need to teach our kids there's nothing cool about being anxious or depressed. And we need to disconnect our kids from the toxic culture that is spreading this, which is very much part of this woke mind virus thing. There's nothing cool about being anxious or depressed or lesbian or gay or bisexual or non binary or trans. It is good to be healthy. It is good to be straight. There's nothing wrong with that. And again, you need to create a culture in your own home where it is fine to be normal.
- [101:31]
Megyn Kelly
It's one of the like A related offshoot of this problem is the non stop desire to discuss one's problems in the school setting. Abigail Schreier wrote a book about this recently, Bad Therapy. But more and more the schools, I will say, especially the girls Schools want the kids to discuss trauma. Has anything bad ever happened to you? What did that feel like? Has anyone suffered a loss or a death in the family? What did that feel like? And then they're supposed to go off and do math. What do you make of this? Leaning into discussing your, your trauma in the school setting by some school psychologist who may or may not have any sort of abilities to do that kind of thing with a kid?
- [102:17]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yeah. So called trauma informed therapy, I think does not have a place in a public school setting. And I don't mean a. I mean in a setting where there's a bunch of kids around. The classroom should not be group therapy. The objective and the classroom, the first objective should be to teach the content, not to conduct informal group therapy with untrained therapists. So on that point, I agree with Abigail Schreier.
- [102:51]
Megyn Kelly
Let's talk about, forgive me, we covered this the last time. I don't remember. But you know, my kids are getting into their teens now, so this is not yet relevant, but I'm sure will be relevant in the next five, seven years. Drinking, right? Like, I don't know. I'm sure you'd see signs on your child. If you're an attentive parent at some point you would see signs. Once your child starts drinking, drinking socially, if they start drinking socially, especially when they get more up into like senior year college, you're not going to be able to control what happens to college. But how do you see that? Because let me tell you, in my mom's circles, there are all sorts of opinions on, like, you're not gonna stop it. Like, walk them through. Like, don't have more than one. Don't have a mixed drink, you know, set some guardrails for them. Or there's moms who are like, absolutely not. Don't, you know, it should be shamed. Talk to them about the dangers of it. Slippery slope, all that. Or moms who are like, eh, you know, we host parties and we actually give them, let them have a couple of drinks. We just make sure nobody's driving. So your thoughts on that issue?
- [103:57]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Well, I don't think that kids should be drinking. I think the dangers are clear. I'm actually more concerned as a family doctor with vaping. I see vaping is more popular than drinking right now and it is spreading. I think kids need to be aware of the dangers, but it's really more of a issue of what's popular and if all the other kids are doing it. It's really hard for kids not to. If Everyone else in their group is doing it. So you need to be aware of what all the kids are doing. Again, I talk about in my book, the collapse of parenting, the Phillips family. Mr. Phillips had a Breathalyzer, and he would insist. Insist on if the boys were popular. And so kids would come to their home from other parties. And if a kid appeared intoxicated, he would insist that the kid blow into the breathalyzer. And if the kid was drunk, he would insist that the parents come and pick up the kid and drive them home. And that very quickly became known. And everyone would say, well, you know the crazy Phillips dad, he's got the breathalyzer. And that. Yeah. And that had interesting consequences because people would say, well, you know, the crazy Phillips dad, he's got the Breathalyzer. And that would give other kids an excuse not to drink because they would say, well, I'm going to the Phillips place, so I can't drink. You want to give kids an excuse not to drink? So by all means buy a breathalyzer and have it at the home. And that will give your kid an excuse not to drink. So your kid can say, well, I cannot drink because my dad's got a breathalyzer. He's going to insist on testing me when I get home. Think about excuses you can give your kid. You want to be the evil parent. You want your kid to be able to say, I can't do that because my evil parents will do X. My. My dad will make me blow in the breathalyzer. Breathalyzers are cheap. Give your kid an opportunity to blame you for doing the right thing.
- [106:16]
Megyn Kelly
All right, and how about sexual activity?
- [106:20]
Dr. Leonard Sax
So. I believe that sexual activity is intended for a married couple. And I believe that we want to teach that to our kids. And I again describe Marlo Phillips, true story, using her real name in the book. Her parents had that same belief, and they were strict. They would not allow her to be alone with a boy throughout her high school school years. And she was like, that is so ridiculous. My best friend. She was alone with her boyfriend the entire weekend her parents were away. She was alone with her boyfriend the entire weekend. And I'm not allowed to be with a boyfriend with a boy for this is child abuse. I'm going to call child protective services. And her mom said, all right, here's the phone. She said, I'm going to have to be in therapy for the rest of my life because of the way you guys are abusing me. And then she went away to college. She went to the University of Virginia, Charlottesville. And she told me at the beginning of her second year, she had an epiphany. She suddenly realized I'm the only girl here who's not going to have to be in therapy for the rest of my life because of the way my parents treated me. She said, all the other girls here, they're coming to me, they're saying, do you think this picture I'm putting on Instagram, do you think it's too skanky or maybe not skanky enough? Do you think I'm giving oral sex to too many guys or maybe not enough guys? And she wants to grab these girls and say, have you no dignity, have you no self concept, that all you care about is what the other guys think? And she realized my parents raised me right, that I have dignity, that I have self concept concept, that my self concept does not depend on what the boys think of me. And yeah, it's a toxic culture for girls out there. That's all about what the boys think of how you look and getting down on your knees and giving oral sex to other guys. And yes, the best parent is both strict and loving. And the, the, the mainstream culture right now is about girls getting down there on their knees and giving oral sex to boys they barely know. You don't want that for your daughter. And you have to make that very
- [108:49]
Megyn Kelly
clear here, talk about it explicitly and encourage her to make these different choices.
- [108:55]
Dr. Leonard Sax
You insist on it. Yeah, you have to. The best parent is both strict and loving. And American parents are confused. They think you have to choose between being strict or loving. But the best parent is both strict and loving.
- [109:10]
Megyn Kelly
A follow up on the normophobia discussion a minute ago, because we talked on our last episode about the trans stuff and children and so much has happened. I mean, a week is like a year on that front these days. The Supreme Court just heard a big case on it and so on. But we've seen a few things in the news lately that have been pretty disturbing and I'd love to get your take. In the wake of that Supreme Court case, CNN decided to bring on a bunch of children who CNN says are allegedly trans. You know, believing that they are in, quote, the wrong body and are actually the opposite sex of the one. They are in some cases with their parents to talk about just how awful the fact that their necessary medication is being debated by the US Supreme Court. What was that issue in that case, for those not aware, is the some odd half of the United States have passed laws banning puberty blockers and cross Sex hormones for children, for children, minors. And because it's been found by objective studies in places like the UK and elsewhere that they actually are potentially very dangerous for children and they can sterilize you and remove all sexual function and pleasure for the rest of your life. And how can a 10 year old consent to any of that? So CNN puts on this panel and they have this 10 year old child who I believe is a boy who's posing as a girl named. I don't know the kid's name, but the, the boy posing as the girl is trying to express their fear over this country and what's happening now. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this clip. It's. Is it SOT5? Kelly, let's play it. What concerns have you had about speaking out? That I'm gonna be like, murdered, like one day I'm gonna be walking down
- [111:05]
Sarah Edmondson
the street and somebody's gonna come up
- [111:07]
Megyn Kelly
and like, shoot me or something. That's a really scary thing to be worrying about at 10 years old. Yeah, that should not be a worry. Michelle, what's going through your mind as you hear your daughter say this?
- [111:22]
Sarah Edmondson
It's starting.
- [111:23]
Megyn Kelly
Hear her say that.
- [111:26]
Sarah Edmondson
And she asked me three, three questions
- [111:29]
Megyn Kelly
after she heard who won the election. Are we going to have to move? Are they going to take me away from you and am I not going to be able to get my medicine? It's just. It's frightening your thoughts.
- [111:51]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Well, I'm very troubled because so much of this is an artifact of modern medicine. Recall that synthetic hormones were not a thing until really 80 years ago. This entire transgender movement is a creation of modern medicine. It was not with us before the 20th century. Let's be lesbian, gay has always been with us. It's mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. Transgender is not a thing. Despite claims made by the transgender movement. The notion that there have always been boys who insist they're girls and girls who insist they're boys is really a very modern development. It's a creation of modern medicine. Those medicines that that child talked about didn't exist a century ago, didn't exist a thousand years ago, could not have been obtained 100 years ago. And is this, to what extent is this a real biological phenomenon? To what extent is this transgender movement created by the cultural movement and the politics? You know what, we don't actually have to guess. Earlier this year, a team of researchers at Stanford Medical School did a study of 1,500 young adults 20 to 35 years of age and looked at their brain activity. These Are young people, men and women, 20 to 35 years of age, and they are awake and they're in an MRI scan. And you're looking at their brain activity. Now, all human brains have a fingerprint, a neural fingerprint that is more unique to you than your own fingerprint on your finger. That's been known for many years. And the researchers wanted to know, how does a man. Does a man's fingerprint differ from a woman's fingerprint? And the image that they obtained, the graph that they showed, is really astonishing. And there it is. So the women, the listening audience, it
- [114:15]
Megyn Kelly
shows in the top left quadrant, a bunch of red dots. In the bottom right quadrant, a bunch of blue dots. And there's zero overlap. The blue is male.
- [114:24]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yes. No overlap. So the women are up in one corner and the men are all down in the other corner.
- [114:30]
Bill Stanton
And.
- [114:30]
Dr. Leonard Sax
And there's no overlap. And the difference between the men and the women is larger than the variation among the men and the women. And what this graph is showing very clearly is that whatever is going on in the brain, in a man's brain at rest is different from what's going on in a woman's brain at rest. There were 1,500 individuals. Now, in a. A survey conducted earlier this year, more than 3% of American high school kids said that they were trans. Well, 3% of 1,500 would be 45. We ought to find 45 people in the middle or on the other or crossing over. But we found zero. Zero and more from this study. Okay, so the researchers.
- [115:28]
Megyn Kelly
So what does that tell us? What does that tell us?
- [115:32]
Dr. Leonard Sax
It is telling us that these kids are confused. An XY male. That child in that video we just saw is an XY male. Every cell in that individual's body is XY male. They may take female hormones, they may be castrated, but they are still an XY male. And in my book, why Gender Matters, I show that boys see differently, they hear differently, they smell differently than girls do. And that will not change. Now, that doesn't mean that all boys are one way and all girls are other way. There's great variation among boys and there's great variation among girls, and we should celebrate and acknowledge those variations. But male and female are biological realities. They are not social constructs. And pretending that that is not so, and castrating boys and giving them female hormones is not going to be in that boy's best interest. That is what this research is showing us. Possibly there may be rare exceptions. We can debate that case. But the comprehensive review Coming out of the United Kingdom by Dr. Kass and her colleagues strongly suggests that in the great majority of cases, in the great majority of cases, prepubertal kids should not be transitioning to the other sex. But I want to finish that Stanford study because they also found with these very high resolution functional MRI scans and the sophisticated analysis that they were doing, they found that they could analyze the brains of the men and they could predict with high accuracy cognitive function, including intelligence for the men. But those rules that they came up with to predict intelligence in men were of zero value in predicting intelligence in women. Conversely, they came up with rules that could predict with high accuracy cognitive function, including intelligence in women. But those rules that predicted intelligence in women were of zero value in predicting intelligence in men. These findings tell us that whatever it is that determines intelligence in the brain of a man does not predict intelligence in brains of women. Whatever it is that determines intelligence in the brain of a woman does not predict intelligence in brain of a man. Now, if you subscribe to the Wall Street Journal, if you subscribe to the New York Times, if you listened to every program on National Public Radio, you heard no mention of this study conducted by the Stanford Medical School and published in one of our most prestigious scholarly journals. If you subscribe to my free newsletter, you would have heard about it, but our mainstream media, our mainstream media never mentioned it. So go to my website.
- [118:54]
Megyn Kelly
I do find it interesting how these parents, these parents lean in and in that clip for the listening audience, the young boy posing as a girl is listening to the mother who's crying over the child's potential loss of access to these pills. And the child reaches up to comfort the mother. The child, like, touches the mother from down below, which is a reversal right of the way. This is a 10 year old kid. It's supposed to be. And I, you know, all I can think of is this, this meme. Charlie Kirk sent it out. I'm sure he may not have been the first, but it was. If you're, if your child, if you think you're trans, you have a mental illness, if your child thinks he or she is trans, it's the mother who has the mental illness. It's the parents who had, like. And I cannot help but notice over and over and over again, you see parents who are weirdly almost needy of this thing. Like, they won't, you write about this in the book, they won't say that they're having a boy. When the ultrasound shows the kid has XY chromosomes. You know, the baby, they're going to wait for the kid to tell them what they are. And then that leads me to one other video I wanted to show you because we showed it on the show or we. We haven't yet, but it's disturbing. I can't remember whether we did or not, frankly. But anyway, it's a dad, and I normally wouldn't. I don't. I don't bring parents and children, you know, onto the show or show their videos ever if they haven't, you know, put something out intentionally. Right. Like, if they want us to be talking about it, then I think it's fair game. And that's what this dad wants. He's in the uk. His name is Jonathan Jolie, J O L Y. And he has a boy who he's now raising as a girl named Edie. They have almost 4 million followers on TikTok. And all this dad does is update us with his boy looking more and more like a girl at a very young age. And it's a very almost sexualized looking exchange. And what they're doing, to quote Edie, is very reminiscent to me of what, like, JonBenet Ramsey looked like a sexualized child with the hair and the makeup. But I'm not an expert. Let me show you what I'm talking about. Hey, guys. So Edie wants to do a summer
- [121:16]
Security Expert
holiday morning routine and show you a
- [121:20]
Dr. Leonard Sax
get ready with me and show you
- [121:21]
Megyn Kelly
guys what her skincare is and her
- [121:24]
Dr. Leonard Sax
room is and how she picks her
- [121:25]
Megyn Kelly
outfit and all that. Cool.
- [121:28]
Nippy Ames
Ah.
- [121:28]
Security Expert
So that is the skin care element of the video. Complete.
- [121:32]
Megyn Kelly
What's next, Edie? I think I'm gonna do my hair. How do you get your hair so wonderful? Maybe not in the mornings. It doesn't look that wonderful. And there are other videos of the parents putting a lot of makeup on Edie. Very sort of sexy makeup, heavy eyeliner, wet lip gloss. I find it very disturbing. Doc, what do you make of this?
- [121:58]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Okay, that's just creepy. That's really creepy. And that's extremely creepy. And, you know, we could speculate regarding that father's psychopathology and why he is doing that. And I don't want to speculate, but I think we need to focus on the child. You made reference to the new chapter in the new edition of the Collapse of Parenting. I was talking with a parent in Orange County, California, and she'd been trying to get pregnant for three years, and she and her husband finally did get pregnant. She was very excited. She was telling everyone at the school, including people she barely knew, and she told a Fellow teacher at the school, she said, guess what? We're having a boy. And her colleague said, don't you think you should let the baby decide? And that is indeed a thing that her colleague reprimanded her, that the colleague thought you should wait and not assign a sex. Because there are indeed many Americans now who think that sex is assigned at birth and you should wait until the child is three or four years of age and then let the child decide. Give the child a gender neutral name at birth and then that the child choose. And if the child was assigned male at birth, but they decide that they are female, then you should raise the child as a girl, which leads down the road to castration and opposite sex hormones, etc. And I felt this was necessary to introduce a new chapter that wasn't in the original version ten years ago, the new chapter titled Babies because this is really harmful and it is psychotic. It is utterly detached from reality. And sex is not assigned at birth. Sex is recognized at birth because indeed you are born male or female. And those differences that the Stanford University group recognized in adults are present in the baby prior to birth. We have other studies of women in the third trimester where they've done high resolution MRI scans of the baby still in its mother's womb and they find the same differences in the cognitivity of the male brain compared with the female brain. Because Genesis 1:27 in the image of God, he created him. Male and female. He created them. It doesn't say black and white. He created them. It doesn't say Asian and Hispanic. He created them. Black, white, Asian and Hispanic are indeed man made categories. But male and female are of God. You are in fact born male or female. There is a rare category called intersex. About 2 in 10,000 individuals are indeed born both male and female. That's a rare pathology on the same order of magnitude as Siamese twins. But for 99.98% of individuals you are either male or female. And that's the way we are born and made.
- [125:08]
Megyn Kelly
Hopefully the US Supreme Court will see it that way as well and will issue a sensible ruling. From what we saw, I Predict they will. Dr. Sacks, so great talking to you. Love, love, love when you come on. Please come back soon.
- [125:21]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Thanks again for inviting me.
- [125:23]
Megyn Kelly
And don't forget the name of the book is the Collapse of Parenting, the revised edition. You can get it right now and do so. Don't let it sell out. From all the listeners who are now rushing to Read more about Dr. Sacks Longitudinal Cohort studies that are that separate fact from fiction and feelings. And that this is an area that's sorely in need of that. Hope it was helpful to you. To you. It certainly was to me. Jackpot for the Luckyland Snow Queen herself.
- [125:55]
Sarah Edmondson
Hey, who's playing my game?
- [125:57]
Megyn Kelly
The Queen herself. Tiff, I know you're new here, but you're going to need a lot more gold coins. No.
- [126:03]
Sarah Edmondson
I declare myself the Lucky Land Snow Queen. Yeah, right.
- [126:06]
Megyn Kelly
Think you can take dust off the Lucky Land Queen? Not on my watch.
- [126:09]
Sarah Edmondson
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Megyn Kelly
And I'm Charlotte Flynn.
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Sarah Edmondson
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Megyn Kelly
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- [126:21]
Sarah Edmondson
If you're looking for new ways to
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Megyn Kelly
get ahead, then you're our kind of person. We're Udemy and we help learners like you upskill in AI, productivity, leadership and management and more. Learn at your own pace from real world experts. You can also prep for certifications that show employers what, you know, upskill for the career you want@udemy.com now back to your regularly scheduled listening. My guests today were searching for self improvement and a way to contribute to the good of society when they joined an organization called nexivm. They found each other and got married. But they also found utter darkness and depravity in one man's desire for ultimate power and control over women. Sarah Edmondson and her husband Anthony Nippy Ames, are former members now of the cult called nxivm and the hosts of the podcast A Little Bit Culty. And they join me now. It's so nice to meet you, Sarah. Thank you for being here. You as well, Nippy.
- [127:37]
Sarah Edmondson
Thank you so much for having us. And thank you also for being such a proponent of Anti Nexium from the beginning. We appreciate that.
- [127:44]
Megyn Kelly
Of course. I remember so clearly where I was when that New York Times article hit featuring you and a lengthy article about you coming forward, about what you'd been through. And I had chills. I just couldn't believe it. You were so beautiful. You were accomplished. You were so raw about how you'd been sucked into this thing. And not for nothing, but it happened in my hometown of Albany, New York, which was just so strange to me. Like, Albany? You don't think of Albany as like. Yeah, I don't know. It doesn't feel culty, right? To use your word. It's like hard working people. It's kind of like The Midwest. You know, I would think something like this would happen more in California, but it happened in Albany and you were in it too, Nippy. And I know, you know, on the bright side, it brought you together, but not without a hell of a lot of trauma. So thank you for telling the story. I guess let's start at the beginning. For the audience members who've never heard of, you know, this, or at least if they've heard of it, they don't really know what it is because I do think much like some other cults, many other cults, it had some pluses, which is why smart, vibrant people like you got drawn in. So talk about how you first heard about it and what was attractive about it to you.
- [129:02]
Sarah Edmondson
Sure. It was 2005. I was an aspiring actress and I was looking for more meaning and purpose, community in my life. I met a really talented filmmaker who I admired. I'd just seen his film, what the Bleep Do We Know? And the long and short of it is he said, well, if you like my film, then you'll probably like this course I just took. And as somebody who is into self improvement and workshops, my parents are both in the therapy field. It seemed like a no brainer. I did not do any research. Unfortunately, I've learned from that mistake now. But I jumped in. I really wanted to develop myself and work through limiting beliefs. And that was the, that was the beginning. And it was wonderful at first.
- [129:43]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. How about you, Nippy?
- [129:46]
Nippy Ames
My story is less glamorous. I had an old high school girlfriend who I went to boarding school with and she's from the area and she had taken the training and I had run into her in New York and she kind of hounded me for about a year and a half. So I kind of went kicking and screaming to the training. In part because of what she was saying, in part because she knew me when we dated and she knew I was into the leadership stuff and all that stuff and it was aligned with me and, you know, my principles. And finally after kind of being hounded about it, I said, fine, I'll do your cult. So I called it a cult from the get. Jokingly you did, but did you have
- [130:24]
Megyn Kelly
any hint or that was just purely a joke?
- [130:27]
Nippy Ames
It was purely a joke. Well, it sounded like a cult and I didn't really have a strong understanding of what a cult is. It just sounded weird and it sounded like you're following this guy. And I was like, yeah, I'll do your cult. And I kind of jokingly went up and did it. And it didn't seem, I mean, it was weird. I mean it was, it was lots of time. But I kind of took it, you know, in stride and was like, well, you know, what's the worst thing that could happen? Well, cut to.
- [130:51]
Megyn Kelly
Right, right. It's so, it is true. This is kind of the study in, in how, how people can be manipulated. You know, how very bright, intelligent, accomplished people can be manipulated beyond what they ever thought possible, manipulated into doing things like self harm against their better instincts and so on. It's like they, they separate you from yourself. They don't. They not only separate you from your family and your friends, they separate you from yourself, which is really one of the, probably the worst things that they can do. But all right, again, I'm getting ahead of myself because before we get to that chapter, there's the, there's the wonderful chapter. You know, I talked to Katherine Oxenberg about this princess and famed Hollywood actress and she was saying the reason she got into it with her daughter India was they were just looking for female empowerment and to do better in business. They were both business aspiring businesswomen and they offered a lot of classes along these lines. So it's kind of where do you go, right? Where do you go for female improvement or better business acumen if you're not going to take a full MBA program, Sarah. Right. I mean, was there any of that sold to you?
- [132:04]
Sarah Edmondson
Oh, absolutely. In fact, they even sold it as a more practical and useful mba. That's what I thought I was getting. And I remember when Catherine and Nadia came and did the program, I was so happy because I loved them both and wonderful, bright, beautiful energy and that was such a big part of it as well. It wasn't just learn how to do business, learn how what success is from the inside out, how to map out your goals and work through things that you're, you know, you're limiting blocks your beliefs about yourself and the world. But also as a community of like minded people and people who were going to achieve big things and wanted to do it with people that were in a similar mindset and, and do it together. So I, I have very fond memories of that time period.
- [132:46]
Megyn Kelly
Right. It always starts well, that's why people stay. So explain what happened with the money because I think this story is very telling and I am also attracted by this woman's message. Like, I can already see why you were like, oh, okay, because you tried to complain or object a little to the expense of it when you were first being recruited and they had an answer for everything.
- [133:14]
Sarah Edmondson
Oh yes. I was recruited by the best. I actually put a deposit down because I wanted to take advantage of the 48 hour discount which is a red flag. I warned people about with sales pressures, tactics. Didn't know that at the time. And then I tried to get my money back because I was, you know, an actress living in a basement suite. I didn't have $2,000 to pay for a five day training. And they said, well you, you're in your 20s and you don't have $2,000, what's up with that? And basically was questioning why I didn't have money, why I had money issues and wanted to know if I was ready to change that and do I want to be the master of my own ship or site.
- [133:51]
Megyn Kelly
And then you said something like, well what if I'm in there and my agent calls with a role for me? Yes. While I'm in this training. And they had an instant answer for that too.
- [134:00]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, you're going to be waiting by your phone your whole life or you want to create your own, create your own life, be the master of your own destiny, the captain of your ship or something like that.
- [134:09]
Nippy Ames
It's your first experience with gaslighting?
- [134:10]
Sarah Edmondson
That's my, yeah, my first experience with gaslighting. Did not know what that was. And high sales pressure tactics.
- [134:17]
Megyn Kelly
But where your instincts are telling you one thing and they're trying to tell you you're basically a fool not to listen to your instincts. Those are the things that are holding you back.
- [134:28]
Sarah Edmondson
Exactly. And what you said earlier about separating you from yourself, that was the beginning. That was the beginning right there when my internal gut was saying something's not right here. But I also have the belief, and this was fortified further on in the curriculum that when you're uncomfortable, it's something to look at. It's a, you know, you're hitting up against the limitation. No pain, no gain, which is true. But that doesn't give any room for gut instinct. And when you're separated from yourself and separated from your moral compass, that's when things can go awry. And that was a very slow process that was from day one dripped out until, you know, 12 years later.
- [135:06]
Megyn Kelly
This is why it's so important to keep away from these people to begin with. You know, like the secret is almost just don't get near them because they're so effective. And we're all vulnerable to messages like this. Same honestly, weirdly, when it comes to news, like I, I'm very careful about my news sources. Because before you know it, I mean, you can be a little crazy if you take in too many news sources from the wrong people, it can really drive you a little nuts. So the whole answer to it is the. The screening up front before you let people access your brain and your heart.
- [135:49]
Sarah Edmondson
Great advice.
- [135:50]
Nippy Ames
Yeah. I would. I would add, you know, all these things are case by case, and people are susceptible in different ways, and the predators, like Keith Ranieri, who are very good at it, are very good at spotting that, and they're proactive in doing it. What they have going for them a lot of the times is they know what it's like to be you with your vulnerabilities, and they know how to spot them and exploit them. People who are more susceptible, they can probably spot. They spend more time with and with people like Keith. You know, for me, I wasn't targeted in the same way he was targeting women, so I was more peripheral to some of his abuse. But the people that were susceptible to what he was looking for, the people that he spent more time with, and he was, you know, if you could turn pro and abusing people, he was a professional at doing it. And that's ultimately what came out, you know, when. When everything came out about what he was doing and how he was doing.
- [136:40]
Megyn Kelly
Well, people talk so much about how he was this gifted, brilliant man. And it's true that in this one lane, he was quite gifted. Yes. Not the lane. Yeah. Look at him now. I mean, this is like. This looks like somebody who's trying to be a cult leader. He's got the Jesus hair, the beard. You know, it's like in retrospect, you're like, yeah, of course.
- [137:02]
Nippy Ames
Yeah.
- [137:02]
Dr. Leonard Sax
That.
- [137:02]
Nippy Ames
That picture doesn't do him any justice.
- [137:04]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, no.
- [137:05]
Sarah Edmondson
He did get a makeover, by the way, and I want to say 2010 or 11, where he was a little more clean cut and would wore like, poloed shirts and nice jeans and.
- [137:13]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, because people.
- [137:14]
Sarah Edmondson
The people around him are like, you got to clean up a bit because you're not.
- [137:17]
Nippy Ames
But he would spend that. You know, he would spend that in the same way that, say, you know, Einstein was quirky and he didn't care about that stuff. You know, that's Keith. He's just Keith. He's being him. He doesn't put value on material things and he's spiritual. He's himself and all that stuff, but
- [137:31]
Megyn Kelly
it's a total affectation.
- [137:33]
Bill Stanton
Yeah.
- [137:33]
Nippy Ames
Yeah, it's.
- [137:35]
Megyn Kelly
So you guys, you. You've. You've talked on your podcast about the steps to realize you're in a cult or getting recruited by a cult. And people do need to be aware. There are tons of cults. It is not just this one. They're all over the United States. And you get. Usually you get roped in the way you two did unknowingly. So one of the first red flags is what we just talked about, which is a lot of money. They want you to pay, and it tends to be escalatory, like a pyramid scheme, like more and more and more for the next level.
- [138:09]
Sarah Edmondson
Because ideally, what they want you to feel at the end of the five day is it was super valuable. But also there's something in you that needs to be fixed. And of course, they're providing the answers to fix you. And that's the only way, or that's another red flag. This is the path forward. This is the. This is the way to evolve. Whatever it was that you've just realized about yourself is broken. And that's, by the way, like, very commonplace. Nexium is. I don't know if you are afraid of Scientology or not. We're not anymore. But not ology Landmark. Like all of these programs are all based on the same premise. You know, if you want to transform your life, if you want to have to pay money, you have to pay to play. And this is the path and to
- [138:52]
Nippy Ames
justify the buy in too. You know, you're there working for five days. You want to make sure that you feel that your investment was worth it. And so they'll say stuff like, well, was having that awareness about yourself worth the price of admission? And you're kind of going, maybe I could have gotten that from a book, but I did spend two grand to be here. So if.
- [139:09]
Sarah Edmondson
Confirmation bias.
- [139:10]
Nippy Ames
Yeah, so.
- [139:12]
Megyn Kelly
So here's a question for you now. In retrospect, knowing what you know, do you feel like, take Keith out of it. Do you feel like the emissaries around Keith were all along, like, knowingly pushing a pyramid scheme? Or whether everyone was brainwashed by this guy, you know, was, I believe he was at the top, actively manipulating. But how about everybody around.
- [139:37]
Nippy Ames
Allow me to feel that one nippy
- [139:38]
Sarah Edmondson
loves answering this question.
- [139:39]
Nippy Ames
So here's my delineation, and you can take it for what it's worth. I think there's a lot of people there, I'd say 98% of them, 99% of them who were there because we thought we were doing something good. And the closer to Keith Ranieri you got, the more abuse you experienced. And in cases of the worst case scenarios, he was Sexually abusing them. And they didn't think they were doing it, being sexually abused. They thought they were going on a spiritual path with someone sexually.
- [140:09]
Megyn Kelly
So.
- [140:10]
Nippy Ames
And they were told to keep that secret. So 99 of the people stayed in the organization based on the capacity of the people around him to lie. And we underestimated the people around him, their capacity to lie to us and keep us loyal to someone that they knew who wasn't. They knew he wasn't who they were pretending he was. Meaning he presented himself as celibate, he presented himself as these things, and the people around him knew that he wasn't that. And they were propagating the lie. And they were propagating the lie because if they didn't believe in the lie, they had to admit to themselves they were being abused. So the buy in for them was my entire life is a fraud and I'm. And, and I'm propagating this myth knowingly. But if I let other people know, that means I have to admit I'm abused.
- [140:58]
Sarah Edmondson
So it's like knowing and not knowing time. Right?
- [141:02]
Nippy Ames
But a lot of people made major life decisions based on their capacity to lie. Because if I had known that's what he was doing, and I found out afterwards that some of my friends that, you know, someone I knew was sexually abused by him and all that, if I had known that stuff when I had first done it, I'd have been in there raising hell from the get. But because I didn't know that stuff and I was peripheral, I didn't think this stuff was going on because I didn't think the people that I knew and were friends with were being abused because I thought they would have said something so they could, you know, and I didn't know what I was looking at, so. And I would have protected them. I would have been the first one in there. And I think they knew that. So I think that that's why they didn't want to tell me that. So there's a lot of things keeping this thing propped up. And once the truth came out, you know, everything fell apart. And so that's my delineation. Like it's hard for me to. I never knowingly lied about Keith Rene and who he was. I was unwittingly aligned with someone abusing people. And that was, you know, I had to go fix that, you know, and Sarah and I, you know, have done everything we can to fix that. But the people that were close to him have to reconcile being abused by him and then lying about who he was to keep people loyal to him.
- [142:11]
Megyn Kelly
So can I tell you guys something?
- [142:12]
Nippy Ames
Kind of a double whammy.
- [142:13]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. I've said this before. In fact, whenever I talk about nxivm, this comes up for me because in many ways it reminds me of Fox News, my time at Fox News when Roger Ailes was running it.
- [142:26]
Nippy Ames
Yep.
- [142:27]
Megyn Kelly
He was like a cult leader. And Fox News when I was there was in many ways like a cult. It was definitely, quote, culty. He was the leader whose judgment was not to be questioned. You were to defend him at all costs and not question his genius. Anybody who left was otherized and demonized immediately. You know, even just a correspondent who, like, got fired, you know, he didn't want to go. Doesn't matter. You're on the outs. It's us versus them. And I, as I got higher in the organization, you know, closer to the sun and got to know him better and better, all I could think of was that Carly Simon song. Sometimes I wish, often I wish that I never knew all those secrets of yours. I, I, I was getting exposed to the reality and I had a real wrestling session with myself on an ongoing basis about who is he? Who is this man? You know, is he this all knowing television genius or is he this frail, conspiratorial, paranoid guy who's a genius at messaging? And I've been sucked into it to be a cog in this massive wheel. And honestly, I don't, I don't know if I have a clear answer on that even right now, but I totally get what you went through.
- [143:52]
Nippy Ames
Well, the questions you're asking are, are valuable. And that's why our podcast is called a little bit culty. Because the abuses of power that went on in cults or go on in cults aren't proprietary to cults. They go on a lot of places. And putting language to it and shining a light on it is kind of in our lane. And the fact that you can make those connections is, is great, I think valuable for a lot of people.
- [144:15]
Sarah Edmondson
Absolutely. And it's so important right now because I think even if you use the word cult, people get a little defensive. And it's not. A cult traditionally doesn't have all of the markers, but another way of saying it is, is this a healthy place for me to be? I remember when, when you were dealing with that publicly got, I got goosebumps just now as you were talking that I started to make those correlations without obviously knowing everything that you just said. But anytime that there is someone who you can't question without getting in trouble. And there's this.
- [144:45]
Bill Stanton
This.
- [144:45]
Sarah Edmondson
This air of fear in an workplace environment. Don't have to call it a call. It's just not good for you. You can't express your true opinions.
- [144:54]
Candace DeLong
You.
- [144:54]
Sarah Edmondson
You don't want to say what's really on your mind. And like you said, you're separated from yourself because you know you want to keep your job. That's not. That's not healthy. Never mind healthy. Whatever. Does that make sense?
- [145:05]
Megyn Kelly
And. And at Fox, similar to Nexium, it came out in the whole me too scandal that he had this secret floor at Fox with these private detectives and others who would be digging up dirt on his enemies, anybody who turned on him. It was a very risky thing to do, to challenge him in any way, which is why, you know, his MeToo scandal went on for so long without anybody speaking up about it. People understood you didn't cross him. And these leaders, they have that ability of scaring you through their emissaries, through their messaging. You know, they have ways of letting you know that you'll pay if you cross them or the group. And it's amazing how, again, you can be pulled into this, even even though you don't think you're one of them. At Nexium, it was a step further where you guys actually called him vanguard. You know, he had, like, the. The name was that at first. Did that feel silly? Were you like, what? Oh, God.
- [146:08]
Nippy Ames
At first and at last, Megan, the whole time, it was. It was that, you know, it was just.
- [146:13]
Sarah Edmondson
But also it became normalized. Like, you know, people would say vanguard means it's the leader of a philosophical movement, and that's what he's done. So, you know, you call him vanguard. Some people called him V out of school. I know out of the center, we called him Keith. But it. It just became normal. Like, all the things that were weird at first, the sashes, the bowing, and that was introduced on day one as. These are the things we do. As in, you know, if you go to someone's house and they take off their shoes, you take off your shoes, because that's the polite thing to do. So you go to their center, you wear the sash, you call them vanguard. You kind of just like, I'm just doing it because you're asking me to, and I'm taking off my shoes. And then it becomes a courtesy. Yeah, it's a courtesy. Yeah. And then it's a dojo. So this is like a martial arts system. We wear these sashes. It denotes what level of Rank. You are just like in a dojo. Oh, you don't want to wear one? Well, let's look at that. But what area in your life do you feel like you might have an issue with? Authority, you know, and then you. Again, you don't know that you're being gaslit because they're saying it nicely. They're there to help you with your authority issues, which, by the way, some of us may also have. So there's like truth mixed in with the gaslighting. And then you're questioning yourself and you're like, whatever, it's a piece of fabric. I'm just going to wear the stupid sash.
- [147:29]
Nippy Ames
And it was done effectively. I mean, Lauren Salzman was. Was a really good head trainer. And she would teach Denoue to normalize it pretty quickly.
- [147:38]
Megyn Kelly
She's like, she was the daughter of the. One of the co founders, Nancy Salzman, and would go on to become Sarah's best friend. Keep going.
- [147:45]
Nippy Ames
Yes. And she would do it in a way, it's like, look, we do these things at work. We do these things, you know, we. We have titles like your Honor, Injustice Systems. And so she was drawing parallels and the curriculum drew parallels in society of, like, where you could go as a student. Okay, I'll wear it for this training. Right. And so slowly, you're starting to become acclimated and indoctrinated into a culture that you haven't seen anything bad about yet. You just think it's weird. And some people would be okay with it. I was never really comfortable with it, but we always. I mean, for the most part, we all thought it was weird. And all of us were like, look, we gotta lose the sashes. We're losing students. So it was kind of like one of those things where we all knew the optics of it.
- [148:30]
Megyn Kelly
At Fox News, it was polyester, bright colored dresses. That's cool. Everyone has their uniform.
- [148:35]
Nippy Ames
There you go.
- [148:36]
Megyn Kelly
There you go. Could have been worse, I was gonna say, which is worse. They said all these wonderful things about Keith. He's this, he's that. The other thing. And I remember talking to Katherine Oxenberg about when she got her first look at him. And of course, she comes from Hollywood. She's like, you know, she's. She knows what an attractive person looks like, you know, in a way Californians know acutely. And I remember her being like. She was like, that's it, that's him. Did you, like, that's vanguard. Do you. Did you have a moment like that when you first got eyes on him?
- [149:07]
Nippy Ames
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [149:09]
Sarah Edmondson
I mean, he just looked like a schlubby, you know, volleyball playing. I think he actually had knee pads on.
- [149:17]
Nippy Ames
I'll take it to. I mean, I played sports my whole life. I was a college athlete. And they were trying to sell this guy as an athlete. And I went and showed up to one of the volleyball things. You know, my friend took me one night and I was. It was late, and I was kicking and screaming, going to that. Because in my mind I was going to take a training and peace out. And I saw him moving around. I was like, do you guys really think this guy's an athlete? Like, look at him. Like, they're like, all marveling at how he played volleyball. And I'm over there just kind of going, oh, my God. Like, what is going on here?
- [149:48]
Megyn Kelly
Wait, stand by, because we have. We have a little video of this. I'll show. I'll show the audience and pick it back up.
- [149:53]
Sarah Edmondson
Okay.
- [149:53]
Nippy Ames
Yeah. Don't take my word for it.
- [149:56]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yeah.
- [149:57]
Megyn Kelly
We can practice generating an extreme feeling of joy over any. There's Allison Mack of Smallville. Our methods that we have, especially in 2C meeting for the first time. It's one of our intensive.
- [150:10]
Sarah Edmondson
Thank you. That was really. Do I hug? I hug and I kiss.
- [150:17]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Good voice.
- [150:18]
Megyn Kelly
Thank you. Me too. Oh, my gosh. There's a lot.
- [150:24]
Nippy Ames
Yeah. Not. Not a strong selling point. And he had, you know, I always joke about this and I. And I always gave the people. That person that enrolled me a lot of crap for this because I was like, why is he putting the fact that he's a judo champion in sixth grade on his resume? Like, why is that a selling point? It's like, you know, there's a lot of things that I did in sixth grade that were as successful that I've forgotten about. Like, I don't. Like.
- [150:46]
Megyn Kelly
Yes. It's just.
- [150:47]
Nippy Ames
He's a judo chambers. Like, get over it. Why didn't he continue. Why didn't he go into, like, you know, mixed martial arts in his 20? That would be more impressive. But the sixth grade achievements on his
- [150:56]
Megyn Kelly
resume, I. I was runner up for class president in the fifth grade. I. I lost to a kid who. I'm really proud of you. Thank you. Thank you. I feel really good about it. When all was said and done, I. I don't think he hadn't yet been tried. So it wasn't all said and done. But after we get to, you know, and we'll get to this. But he got arrested. I had an interview with his lawyer, Mark Agnifolo. It was contentious, as we saw that. I forgot about that. Remember that. Can we cuss and I don't think on here, because. Yeah, you can curse. Yes.
- [151:32]
Nippy Ames
Oh, that was. I was.
- [151:34]
Megyn Kelly
I was.
- [151:35]
Sarah Edmondson
I was so grateful for you, though, for asking the tough questions.
- [151:38]
Nippy Ames
Yeah, that was great.
- [151:39]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah. You were like, seriously, Mark?
- [151:41]
Megyn Kelly
He was like, this is New York. We don't do slavery here. What do you mean? We pick ourselves up. We're strong New Yorkers. I'm like, okay, you can be strong and be safe. Sexually manipulated, as the women are alleging here. He was like, what do you mean? New York jury's not gonna buy that. Well, okay, so here's a little clip where I got into it with him about what. What an amazing, accomplished man Keith Ranieri supposedly was. Check it out. About Keith Ranieri and his tenuous relationship with the truth. He claimed he graduated from high school and started RPI at age 16. That's not true.
- [152:15]
Nippy Ames
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what he started.
- [152:17]
Megyn Kelly
He claimed he could make full sentences by the age of one.
- [152:21]
Nippy Ames
If exaggerating about one's resume is a crime, I think we're all in trouble.
- [152:24]
Megyn Kelly
No, I'm not.
- [152:26]
Security Expert
I'm probably not either.
- [152:27]
Nippy Ames
But other than the two of us,
- [152:28]
Megyn Kelly
this guy is a liar. He has a long history of lying about himself and his achievements, including his time at RPI, where he was a 2.2 GPA and not a triple major who set records at the school.
- [152:39]
Nippy Ames
That doesn't worry me in the least.
- [152:41]
Megyn Kelly
No, no. Oh, my God. Well, it's my hero.
- [152:47]
Nippy Ames
My favorite line is, no, I'm not. And he's like, yeah, no, me neither.
- [152:50]
Megyn Kelly
I know. Actually, none of us really do that. That was like 19 year old stuff.
- [152:55]
Nippy Ames
Oh, that was so great.
- [152:57]
Megyn Kelly
You meet him. He's not the brightest bulb. Even you have. Like, we're kind of like, I don't get it. Is this the genius? But okay, you know, but the women around him seem to have been really on. And men too, but like, on and kind and warm and offering something. So it wasn't all about him, Sarah, is that correct?
- [153:16]
Nippy Ames
Well, I want to add one here.
- [153:18]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Just.
- [153:18]
Nippy Ames
Just, it's. It's important. Like, it's easy to sit back in hindsight and make fun of it and. And kind of distance ourselves from what we had fallen far. I will say for me personally, I was all in on the curriculum. I was all in what I thought we were doing. So I. One of the things that I don't like is when people don't own what they fell for and try to distance themselves from, like, you know, I fell for this, and it kind of minimizes the story and. And the magnitude of. Of what can happen. You know, for me, I was somewhat evangelical about, like, hey, this is. These are ethics. These are changing the world. Yes, I thought Keith was. Was weird, but I was. I was hook, line, and sinker. Bought into what we were doing and not totally sold on Keith, but, like, didn't think there was bad things going on there in the way that they were. So I think it's important to. To own that that's, you know, how I got myself in the situation and not minimize the fact that I did fall for this thing. Yeah, it's easy to laugh at now. So anyway, I just.
- [154:21]
Megyn Kelly
No, I get it.
- [154:21]
Nippy Ames
I think it's important because I don't want to. I don't want to punch down on people that are in that situation, because I do think you have to go take the bite out of that and really lean into it to understand what happened to you. So all it's fun and kidding, but just putting that out there.
- [154:35]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. It's therapeutic to laugh after the fact, too.
- [154:39]
Dr. Leonard Sax
It is, it is.
- [154:39]
Nippy Ames
I have plenty of.
- [154:40]
Sarah Edmondson
I would not be through this trauma if it wasn't for the way that Nippy and I can laugh about it and continue to. But to answer your question, I think for me, it's a little different. I. Even though he was a schlub and I wasn't attracted to him, I was greatly respectful of what he, I think, thought that he built.
- [154:56]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Right.
- [154:57]
Sarah Edmondson
I thought his mind created this tech, which is another red flag, by the way, that curriculum. It's not a technology, but we had been so changed by it. And I thought that came from him. And I obviously now know that he stole that from a number of other modalities that already exist and packaged it as his own. But then he was also propped up by these women that seemed to have their. Their lives together and people that I really liked and respected. So I was getting so many of my social and emotional and spiritual needs met very, very quickly. Community, meaning I was. I was helping myself. I was growing, but I got to help others. I got to give people the transformational experience that I was getting, which totally filled my cup. I felt special. I got taken under the wing of women that I really looked up to, and they were going to help me grow. And also, it was measurable. The stripe path, the martial arts system of growth was so different than acting, which had what I'd been doing before. Which is, you know, you never know if you're going to book work or not book work. And now I knew I could just do boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I would evolve. Like, that's what a great promise. I didn't. Again, like Nippy said, I underestimated that, you know, how much bullshit that actually was. But if it was what it said it was, it would have been amazing.
- [156:14]
Megyn Kelly
I know I'm ready to sign up right now. I hear you. And I'm like, yeah, I want it all. And so he. You and he interacted quite a bit in the. The show the Vow, which was on hbo, which is an excellent documentary about all of this and how he went down, has this scene of you and Keith. Sarah, you and Keith interacting in. As part of, like, your training, we've cut a little bit of it just to give the audience a flavor. It's sought to draw a blank.
- [156:42]
Dr. Leonard Sax
That's okay.
- [156:42]
Megyn Kelly
And I know I'm giving you unbearable grief. It's okay. But if you could do it here,
- [156:48]
Dr. Leonard Sax
you can do it in New York.
- [156:50]
Sarah Edmondson
I know I should know this. All right, who's ready to have fun?
- [156:55]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [156:57]
Sarah Edmondson
All right. Okay. So in order to have fun, we don't want anyone to get hurt.
- [157:01]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Oh, it's right.
- [157:02]
Megyn Kelly
No, not fun enough. Who here is here to have fun?
- [157:07]
Security Expert
Fun.
- [157:09]
Megyn Kelly
Come on.
- [157:10]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Fun.
- [157:12]
Sarah Edmondson
Okay.
- [157:13]
Nippy Ames
You should be trying to turn up their energy level.
- [157:15]
Megyn Kelly
Okay.
- [157:16]
Security Expert
When the audience gives you the signal
- [157:18]
Sarah Edmondson
that they got it, you move.
- [157:20]
Megyn Kelly
You move, you move. This is actually good. I mean, I'm listening to him. Like, that's all good advice. I think
- [157:29]
Sarah Edmondson
he was teaching basic rapport skills of how to, like, lead a group in the room. But I haven't actually seen that since the Vow came out. I forgot how painful that was. A, to watch and B, in the moment. And that was actually one of the only times I was ever trained by Keith, personally, in sales. And all I could think of was
- [157:46]
Megyn Kelly
how beautiful you are. You're so beautiful. Like, your angle, the angles of your face and your. The earnestness of you standing up there actually trying to learn it. And I see it, though, like, he's charming, and what he's saying to you makes sense of how to relate to a crowd. He's actually trying to improve you. He's trying to improve you. I think to sell his products and get more buyers into his cult. No.
- [158:07]
Sarah Edmondson
Yes. But also, he was humiliating me. I don't remember if you see it in the whole clip, but, like, he pushed me and pushed me and pushed me, trying to get me to break down. And I refused to cry. And at the end, he gave me a little crumb and said, good job. And that's when I remember, like, looking back, that that's how he controlled so many of the women. He was always humiliating them subtly under the guise of trying to develop them, and then would give them these little crumbs of attention and affirmation that they were on track. And he didn't really mess with me much, mostly because I think I was out in Vancouver just bringing new, fresh students to him. So he didn't do that a lot with me. But that was a particular painful moment that I'd actually completely forgot about till I saw the vow and was horrified.
- [158:52]
Nippy Ames
I also don't think you're susceptible in the same ways.
- [158:55]
Sarah Edmondson
I was not susceptible in the same way as well. We've since learned through, mostly through our podcast and interviewing other, you know, survivors and experts, especially experts on gaslighting and narcissism of cults, that a lot of these guys really look for. It's such a. I hate to use the word, but like, daddy issues, but like a bad attachment with their father in some case, or bad, not good attachment with the parents. So then Keith would step in and be that father figure to a lot of these women, you know, to. To grow them, to coach them, similar to how he was doing with Allison in that clip. He never reached me in that way, partly, I think, because I have a great relationship with my dad and strong attachment, if you believe in those theories, with my parents. So, I mean, he got me in other ways, but not that way, thank goodness. And also, you know, being with Nippy long term protected me, and which I think also infuriated him, knowing what we know now.
- [159:52]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, yes. Oh, God. I can relate to all of this, too. I was just thinking, like, when Roger L. Started to feel like I was getting out from under his thumb, and I was not, you know, just gonna do whatever he wanted me to do or say whatever he wanted me to say. He started to insult me, like, a fair amount behind the scenes to try to, you know, cut down my confidence. And I just. I don't know if I'd identified that. I always just sort of attributed it to anger. But it. You're giving me a new way to think of it almost, you know, like it's. It's a manipulation almost, like to change you so that you'll go back to the way you were.
- [160:33]
Nippy Ames
There's a term, nagging. I don't know if you've heard it, and it's I don't. I don't know.
- [160:39]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, it's from the game.
- [160:40]
Nippy Ames
And the idea is, as I understand it, is I'll give you a little bit of approval so it feels good and then you'll always be chasing that approval.
- [160:49]
Sarah Edmondson
And then also you start. And so, like, the person. It's. It's actually a dating.
- [160:52]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Yeah.
- [160:53]
Sarah Edmondson
Training for men.
- [160:54]
Nippy Ames
Yeah.
- [160:55]
Sarah Edmondson
To try to get women, like men who can't just, like, date women normally would learn this way of like. Yeah. It's basically dropping these little breadcrumbs of approval. But then also the negging is sort of like an insult. These little insults.
- [161:08]
Nippy Ames
It's like establish interest and then take it away so that you'll want it more.
- [161:11]
Sarah Edmondson
It's why you see sometimes women with these men, you're like, what is going on there? Because they're like giving. It's almost like a microcosm of sex trafficking and grooming. It's love bombing.
- [161:23]
Nippy Ames
A couple episodes where women have described this valuing, you know, the cult of one. You know, we've had some episodes where people have described this strategy where men target women, find their vulnerabilities and exploit it in that way. And depending on. I'm giving. I'm kind of out of my lane here, but. But depending on your attachment, say with, you know, a loved one or previous loved one or something like that, they recognize now that. That you might be vulnerable to that strategy and if not, you might be vulnerable to another one. So this is how they operate and this is how they work and this is how they filter a room. I think they can. I think they can walk into a room, according to some interviews we had, and spot the person just by the way they look, by the carry themselves. Because they have such. In so much intel and such a body of work on people that they can kind of scan a room and go. This person probably is susceptible to this, this, this and this.
- [162:18]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, right. And they do find out what your issues are. I mean, I was more like you, Sarah, where I didn't really have that many. I mean, thankfully, I come from a great family, though my dad died when I was young. But a very loving family. And I was a strong person. But you can still get sucked in. It doesn't just happen to weak people. I like, it happens to strong, weak people with issues. People who have almost no issues. It's. That's one of the things I hope people take away from your story is like, absolutely, yeah. A lot of these women were very strong, very smart, accomplished, and before they Knew it. You know, they were on the table without their clothes on, saying, it would be my honor if you would do this thing to me. So let's push it forward a little. Can we just talk one minute about the Seagram's heirs? Because he. He had strong and powerful and very wealthy backers, too. Because, you know, you wonder, like, NXIVM wasn't just in Albany, it was in quite a few places here. You're Canadian. He branched out quite a bit, and he had some important financial backers. So can you talk about these. This pair of sisters, the Bronfmans.
- [163:29]
Sarah Edmondson
You want to feel that one?
- [163:31]
Nippy Ames
I mean, you can chime in when, as I understand it, because again, Sarah and I weren't the inner circle. Right. So you have to understand we. We. That we are observing it from the outside. But what we've gathered and what court documents have gathered is that I think. And this is what we've kind of ascertained, is once they came in, they became made they the admit powers that be, made them special and promoted them very quickly. And then, sure, as I.
- [164:00]
Megyn Kelly
As I understand, it's like getting a Bezos or a Gates who wants to join your organization and help fund.
- [164:06]
Nippy Ames
Sure. They were VIPs, and they were targeted. And I think Claire, from my assessment, was a little bit more susceptible when she was put in a position of authority and power and kind of ushered to the top where she was making decisions. But really it was Keith making decisions. Sarah, less so, because I think Sara, you know, wanted other things. I. I worked with Sara a little bit in New York City because we ran the center there for a little bit, and I just think she constantly struggled with her commitment to the organization. I think she wanted a husband, a family, and that's ultimately what she ended up doing. So she ended up being peripheral, ultimately. But her sister was in, so was.
- [164:45]
Megyn Kelly
Claire was the one who held on to the bitter end. I mean, she was like, the cops were taking him away. She was still, like, no.
- [164:51]
Sarah Edmondson
Still. Till now?
- [164:53]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Wow.
- [164:55]
Sarah Edmondson
She's in jail and she got the maximum sentence for her crimes.
- [164:59]
Nippy Ames
She got triple the suggested amount because
- [165:01]
Sarah Edmondson
she refused to disavow Keith in court.
- [165:07]
Megyn Kelly
Incredible. This is. I think I said, but this is the heir to the Seagram's liquor fortune and beverage fortune.
- [165:14]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah.
- [165:14]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, so you guys were. Things were kind of rolling along, and then something critical happened to you, Sarah, where your. Your best friend, who we mentioned, who is the daughter of the co founder, Lauren, came to you and wanted you to do something that would make you Extra special, like sort of an exclusive thing she wanted to share with you as your best friend. And in this lane of female empowerment, can you explain what happened?
- [165:43]
Sarah Edmondson
Sure. And there's a lot of steps that led to this point, and this is often where people stop and go, sorry, what happened? And I need to give a little backstory, which is, this is, you know, 12 years into the organization, we've had our first child. I'm starting to pull back. I'm starting to recognize I want other things. And being a mom is more important to me than growing this. This company. And I get invited to a secret sorority. I've never been in a sorority. A secret club for women, by women. A badass. Sounds so dumb now. Badass Bitch boot camp, where we're going to work on ourselves and take the tools to a whole new level. Although it's got nothing to do with Nexium. And I sign up thinking this is going to take everything I've been working on to the next level. Also, Lauren invited me, and I trust her implicitly. She was also, you know, she's our. Our son's godmother. Married us at our wedding. So, you know, I say, why? Why not? And it's. It was many, many, many steps that occurred from saying yes to that and then being fully committed to this organization called dos, which I didn't know what it meant until after the fact. Yeah, I. My can feel my body. I haven't talked about this in a while. My body started to go into, like, a little bit of a trauma response, and I'm.
- [167:02]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I can wear that.
- [167:03]
Sarah Edmondson
I have to be careful. But tell me what. What can I tell you about it?
- [167:07]
Megyn Kelly
No, I'm sorry. I. I can see it. And I. I know people who have been through, like, really traumatic things. This can happen. It can have a physical effect. Just to speak about it so I can help fill in some of the blanks. Oh, I can see you're getting upset. I'm sorry. I know what you've been through.
- [167:24]
Sarah Edmondson
It's okay. I thought it was. It's been seven years. I thought I was past it, but it's just been a while to revisit it.
- [167:32]
Megyn Kelly
Well, it's deeply traumatizing because it's this organization to which you've devoted your life, your best friend, a person you trusted, a person you thought loved you, who asked you to do this extraordinary thing and manipulated you into doing it. So why don't we run a clip from the vow from HBO's the Vows, in which this explains. She came to you with a proposal that you be her slave. Quote, slave. She would be your master. And here's a little detail on how that was supposed to work.
- [168:08]
Sarah Edmondson
Like a heightened level of a coaching relationship, which makes sense as she goes into. And we call it master slave. So what I knew about this point is that Lauren had sisters.
- [168:21]
Megyn Kelly
She was part of a pod.
- [168:23]
Sarah Edmondson
I knew there were other sisters under Lauren. She said, one day you'll have slaves, and you'll have six slaves. Slaves. And then you'll be a grandmaster. I'm like, now, keep in mind, every step along the way is totally weird. Just like sashes are weird. But then Lauren explains it, and it's like, a little less weird.
- [168:48]
Megyn Kelly
And I think we should tell the audience about Collateral before we talk about what. What happened next, because this was an important piece of the story. Can you explain what collateral meant within Nexium or within dos?
- [169:01]
Sarah Edmondson
Sure. So even before DOS was introduced, there was this term called collateral. And brilliantly, Keith set this up for years before this ever happened. I mean, think about if I joined in 2005, and they would have told me that 12 years later, I would have the leader's initials on my body. I probably would have run for the hills. But didn't happen that. That way. And I would say in around 2010, 2011, is when collateral got introduced. And it was. It was earlier. It was much earlier than this. It was 2017 that I got branded. And collateral was basically a term that. Well, it's a term in the English language, But nexium, it was something that you'd put down as a commitment against your word. Does that same.
- [169:46]
Nippy Ames
Yeah, yeah.
- [169:47]
Sarah Edmondson
Like, if you were going to do a goal around weight loss or writing a screenplay, you'd say, if I don't do X, Y, and Z, I'm putting this 500 down, and it's consequence. Gonna go, yeah, gonna go to charity or something, or I'm gonna donate it to the center or I'm gonna. Whatever. And that was also mixed with penance, which I think if anyone's religious. I was not religious. I didn't understand the term or have any background to it, but penance was a part of it as well. People were doing penances and putting down collaterals against their word. And in Nexium, your word, your commitment, your integrity was one of the highest values, which may not make sense to the average listener, but there's just certain components of the belief system that was slowly infiltrated into our belief system over time that was of the utmost value. And one of those things was commitment, your word. And so it was very normal to. To give collateral to back something up.
- [170:44]
Megyn Kelly
And then it went next level in. In dos, as I understand it, where they didn't want you to just give $500. They wanted something much more personal and potentially damaging.
- [170:57]
Sarah Edmondson
Yep. And every step along the way with dos, there was more and more collateral. And then once I would finally fully committed, I found out that there was going to be collateral collected every month. So people were giving things like nude photos, like sexual videos, false testimonies, false accusations of, like, the worst possible thing you could say against your parents that your master would hold, so that if you ever defected or left the group, that those things would be released, those letters would be released. One person, I think, that wrote that their parents had molested them or that there was a lawyer involved who said that she had falsified evidence at a trial that would have gotten her disbarred. Terrible, terrible things. But these things were meant. We were told to keep. Help you keep your word, never to be released. Otherwise, that would be blackmail, which is like. That's what it was.
- [171:49]
Nippy Ames
That's the appropriate word.
- [171:50]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, speaking of Scientology.
- [171:53]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, exactly. I mean, when we just to jump to later deprogramming and watching Going Clear and all the Scientology content, I was just blown away by the similarities there. The collection of all the secrets, which also happened in Nexium even before DOS was introduced. When you. When you came to do a training, you'd write down on the intake form, like, what your goals were, why you were there, what was your worst moment ever in your life, what was your worst decision. I mean, depending on bad things you may or may not have done in your life, those. Those things in the wrong hands, 100% be blackmail.
- [172:27]
Megyn Kelly
So it would be scary.
- [172:28]
Sarah Edmondson
This is the strategy. Yeah, very scary.
- [172:32]
Megyn Kelly
So your best friend Lauren asks you to engage in this ceremony where you're gonna take off your clothes. And first of all, that must have been like, you know, women will change in front of each other or going out or whatever. Like, you don't ask your friend to get naked in front of you. So was that. Do you remember having a big reaction to that moment?
- [172:54]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah. So when she invited me to DOSS originally, what she told me was that I was gonna be having a special, very special ceremony with my other sisters, who I hadn't the sorority, you know, initiation. She didn't say anything about being naked. She said we were going to get a matching tattoo that was really pretty. And she showed me the location on her body and told me it was dime size. That's what she told me on the night of is when she asked me to. To get naked and put a blindfold on. And it's just like, you know, even, even now, to this day, it's, it's difficult talking about it, obviously, but explaining why somebody would say yes to that. And ironically, recently, just talking to somebody who was in a fraternity heard my story. I was like, oh, I get it. Like, when I was in a fraternity, like, we're sort of agreeing to, like, this is a game and like, you're, you know, you're above me and I'm gonna let you paddle me and like, okay. But it's part of the, you know, we're just in a fraternity. You're not really my master. You're not really. I'm not really your slave. And that's always how I felt about it. So when she asked me to do that, it was kind of like, okay, okay, we're doing this. All right? Like, and I, you know, I knew Lauren well. I had been, you know, I changed in front of her and like, laid down naked. And like, it's just, it's. It's crazy. It's. I understand how crazy it is. And you know, it's. It's hard to. It's hard to explain 12 years of indoctrination to lead one to this point, to understand what could be going on in my psychology that I would say, okay and not like, this is weird and like, call Nippy to come pick me up because he dropped me off to have what he thought was soup and salad girls night or something, right?
- [174:31]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, boy. You guys, you guys are married at this point, right? You're married. You have. We were married son at this point.
- [174:37]
Nippy Ames
Two year old.
- [174:38]
Sarah Edmondson
He was three. Oh yeah. Almost three.
- [174:40]
Nippy Ames
Turned three five days after we blew it up.
- [174:42]
Sarah Edmondson
Yes, that's right.
- [174:46]
Megyn Kelly
New year, new me. Cute.
- [174:49]
Nippy Ames
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Megyn Kelly
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- [175:00]
Nippy Ames
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Dr. Leonard Sax
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Megyn Kelly
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- [175:33]
Sarah Edmondson
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- [175:36]
Megyn Kelly
plus $1.45 monthly Roe membership fee.
- [175:38]
Sarah Edmondson
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- [175:41]
Megyn Kelly
For safety information about GLP1 medications, including Boxed Warning, go to Roe Co SafetyRxOnly. So you. I mean, I mean, this is just like you. You know, you did absolutely nothing wrong. What your decisions are completely understandable given the context. And she was the villain here. And so she. So now she reveals it's not a tattoo, it's a brand. And that, too was misrepresented. Like, what am I getting branded on me? Like, what? And she did not. What did she tell you? It was.
- [176:16]
Sarah Edmondson
She told. So at this point, I'm with all my sisters. So there was four other women and Lauren and then the doctor. I say that loosely.
- [176:25]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, air quotes.
- [176:27]
Sarah Edmondson
Branding.
- [176:27]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [176:29]
Sarah Edmondson
And she showed all of us, and she said it was a symbol for the elements. And it was. I still can't remember if she said Greek or Latin or something, but it was another language symbolically, and also looked like the elements, like a symbol for water and air and earth and whatnot. So it was. It was a symbol. And. But what we were told it meant overall was it was a commitment to our growth, which is where the indoctrination leading up to this moment kicks in. Because not only am I committed to this group and I'm committed to Lauren and I'm committed to my growth, but I have also learned through the many, many years of programs and workshops that I've taken that no pain, no gain. And there's all these other correlations that I don't believe anymore that pain is love and love is pain, and you have to experience pain to grow and to love and all these other, you know, word salad bullshit meanings that were part of our belief system. And then in addition to that, we have the. The female male training that we'd been learning that women, and this is Keith's misogynist beliefs around women, is that, you know, we are always looking for the back door. We lack commitment. We're too feelings driven, and we don't have any honor or character. And this is my opportunity to prove that I'm not that way. So even when I'm like, literally looking for the back door in this little complex, this duplex that I Later found out belonged to Allison. I'm in my head, I'm gaslighting myself and saying, you know, this is what women do.
- [177:54]
Megyn Kelly
You.
- [177:54]
Sarah Edmondson
You can't back out now. You said you were going to do it. You got to do it. Do it. Just get on the table and do it and prove that you can do it. And. And I did it. And I did probably one of the most difficult physical things I've. I've ever done other than childbirth. To be branded with a cauterizing iron in a ceremony that took somewhere between 30 and 40 minutes without anesthetic. And that is something that I was only able to do because I completely disassociated. I didn't know that at the time, but I was thinking about love of my family, the love of my son getting through childbirth, knowing that I could do that. I could do it again. And I'd also seen what happened to the other women who went before me. It looked like torture. And I was determined to be strong and prove to everybody that I could do it, because I'm a strong woman and I'm a badass, and I'm going to be part of this group. And that's what it takes to be part of the group.
- [178:45]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [178:46]
Sarah Edmondson
And so I did it.
- [178:47]
Megyn Kelly
Why did it take 30 to 40 minutes?
- [178:51]
Sarah Edmondson
Because she would do a line and then stop, and then Lauren would recite something, and I would repeat it back. It may have been. It may have been less.
- [179:02]
Candace DeLong
Some.
- [179:03]
Sarah Edmondson
One of the reasons why I was not a witness.
- [179:05]
Megyn Kelly
So it was trial, because it. Branding. I thought it was just one. One brand, so it was repeated. Branding. In other words, burning of your skin. I thought it was just one mark, you know, that one time.
- [179:16]
Sarah Edmondson
Pass me that pen. It was like, imagine, cauterizing iron has a tip like a pen, and every. It basically slices through your flesh in a line. So you'd be like. Like. So every line that you see in that diagram was done individually, and some of the lines took longer than others. And that's why I was determined to do it quickly, because I wanted it to be over with. So it may have. It may have been less for me, maybe 25 minutes or so. I know some of the women took almost an hour because they had to stop and, like, gather their wits to keep going.
- [179:51]
Megyn Kelly
So you weren't the only one getting branded that night.
- [179:55]
Sarah Edmondson
I was the third of the fourth, I recall.
- [179:59]
Megyn Kelly
Wow. That's kind of worse in a way. You know, it's like. It'd rather be first, I guess. So you don't hear the shrieks before you.
- [180:08]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, I, I honestly don't remember that much about the night. But I, I remember looking at one of the women that I was branded with and at first we were wearing surgical masks because of the smell. And I remember, look, seeing her eyes like over the top of the mask and just. And like, just pure terror in both of our eyes of like, what in the actual fucking. And then we just went for it. And yeah, you know, I do remember like, you know, making light of it and trying to, you know, muscle through it with humor and completely disassociated. Later I got to see the video because there was a trial against the doctor and I mean, that was horrific. Also that that even still existed and that was kept. Which was also.
- [180:54]
Megyn Kelly
You saw the video of her branding you.
- [180:58]
Sarah Edmondson
I had to watch it for the trial.
- [181:00]
Megyn Kelly
Whoa, whoa.
- [181:02]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah. And I'm by the way, was the only woman in DOS that would speak to that because they were still either too afraid to speak or still loyal to Keith and had believed that it was, you know, a good thing to do.
- [181:17]
Megyn Kelly
Was this lunatic quote, doctor saying, how is she defending her branding of you
- [181:25]
Sarah Edmondson
there. Actually there's, there's some. She went on. Was it 2020 with Nikki. She went on Dateline to defend herself and is still loyal to Keith even though she's had her doctor's license taken away and would be. I, you know, I, I let it go and forgive her and would have had a very different approach had she just been like, hey, that was a major fuck up on my part. But she, even to the day, to the end, till now, says that we, we committed to this thing knowing that we wouldn't know the details. She branded me knowing that the symbol was not what we said it was. And by the way, that it's. That evening itself is not what woke me up. It was finding out that it was Keith's initials in the monogram.
- [182:14]
Megyn Kelly
And that's the big reveal.
- [182:15]
Sarah Edmondson
Proof that she.
- [182:17]
Megyn Kelly
Sorry, that's the big reveal about this. Right. It's like it wasn't a symbol of the elements at all. It was the initials K.R. for him. You'd been branded with another man's initials?
- [182:30]
Sarah Edmondson
Yes, that's, that's my body. That's like one or two days after the branding. That's us inside.
- [182:37]
Megyn Kelly
I can see it so clearly now, just for the listening audience, it's a K, capital K on its side. So the straight line is at the top and then the R is in reverse inside the lower triangle. You can see if you zoom Out. It's clearly kr. So we actually have a. We have a bit from the vow of you confronting Lauren, your best friend, on the fact that this is not the elements. This is Keith Ranieri's initials. And here's that in SOT5.
- [183:08]
Sarah Edmondson
I didn't make the brand. Okay, Yeah, I know you didn't make the brand, Lauren. And now I just looked at it from the side and it says kr. I have Keith's initials beside my vagina.
- [183:18]
Megyn Kelly
Do you think Nippy's ever going to
- [183:19]
Sarah Edmondson
want to go down there again?
- [183:22]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, is Keith behind dots? Is Keith the one who organized this?
- [183:30]
Sarah Edmondson
It's not something that we discussed, Sarah. Yeah, Lauren. Lauren.
- [183:33]
Megyn Kelly
It's a real Lauren. Started by a bunch of women, and they got permission from Keith to use some of the tools. He gave them permission to use collateral and penance.
- [183:44]
Sarah Edmondson
Okay, but he didn't know about the branding.
- [183:48]
Megyn Kelly
He knew about it, but he didn't cause it.
- [183:51]
Sarah Edmondson
And he didn't create the brand.
- [183:52]
Megyn Kelly
The girl did.
- [183:54]
Sarah Edmondson
Oh.
- [183:55]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my God. I haven't seen this in a while.
- [183:57]
Sarah Edmondson
It's.
- [183:58]
Megyn Kelly
So what's that bringing up?
- [184:01]
Sarah Edmondson
I mean, so it's not in the vow. That it's not too super clear is that I knew more than I let Lauren know that I know, if that makes sense. So I was trying to.
- [184:11]
Megyn Kelly
So, like, something had switched for you?
- [184:14]
Sarah Edmondson
Yes. Like, I was more out than she knew. And so to hear it, to hear me ask her straight up and to hear her pause and not answer me is just. I just. Like my. My whole body is shaking just remembering that time period, those two weeks where I. We. You know, we were out. We had figured out the key initials were my body. We'd spoken to Mark Vicente, the man who originally introduced me. We had shared what we knew. I knew about the branding. He had heard all this stuff about the sex. We're putting it all together, and we were like, holy fuck. Like our worlds just got flipped upside down. But we knew that we couldn't just. Just, you know, go to them and. And be like, you're a cult and you're a sociopath and you're a sex trafficker. We had to play our cards right, because otherwise they were going to turn on us because we'd seen them turn on people who defected. So we had to kind of figure out a strategy where we were like, wait, what's going on? That's why, when I'm hearing it, do you remember? It was like it. We were. We were kind of double agents. We were like, wait, his Initials are on my body. And do we know about. Like, does he know about this? I knew he knew about the branding because I already figured that out for a number of other. Like, we'd put things together, so I had to pretend to be.
- [185:26]
Megyn Kelly
Once you started talking.
- [185:29]
Sarah Edmondson
Yes. Yeah, we all started talking.
- [185:31]
Megyn Kelly
So can we talk about the moment you came home from the branding and saw Nippy for the first time? And Nippy, you like, what? Describe that moment when you find out Sarah's been branded.
- [185:43]
Nippy Ames
So I was actually asleep with our son when she got home.
- [185:46]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
Well, that's.
- [185:47]
Sarah Edmondson
That's the night that I came home. But then. But six weeks later is when you found out.
- [185:51]
Nippy Ames
I found out I was in New York City. She was in Vancouver, and I got a phone call, and she told me about it, and I was driving with a friend of mine. There's no longer a friend. And she told me. And my initial reaction was. Wait, what?
- [186:13]
Sarah Edmondson
Mark tell you first?
- [186:14]
Nippy Ames
Mark told me first.
- [186:15]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah.
- [186:15]
Megyn Kelly
Mark told him that she'd been branded or that it was Keith's initials, that.
- [186:19]
Nippy Ames
That she'd been branded with Keith.
- [186:21]
Sarah Edmondson
He hasn't seen it yet.
- [186:22]
Nippy Ames
I've seen it yet. And there's a part of me that was like, there's got to be more to the story, right? And then I was like, okay, my wife potentially got physically hurt here. Like, I'm piecing it all together. And then it dawned on me. We might be in the grips of something diabolical here, and we need to get out, and I need to get my family out as quickly as possible from this. And Mark wasn't sure if I was gonna be all in or whatever, because, you know, everyone had their doubts, right? And they didn't think Keith was going to be this, you know, and you have to admit to yourself. But it didn't. It was. By the end of the conversation, I was like, okay, how are we going to blow this up? And I was pissed, obviously. And I had to, you know, reconcile all the primordial reactions to having your wife physically hurt. I didn't know that me being around Keith would have been smart, because I don't know really what I would have done had I had to confront him. And we made a lot of really good decisions in a short amount of time to blow this up.
- [187:32]
Megyn Kelly
A lot of that is documented in the vow. It's very. It's very powerful to see you all working behind the scenes. It was a gift to us all for you guys to start taping and filming. And Mark. Mark was a videographer, right? Wasn't he? Yeah, like he was part of your.
- [187:48]
Nippy Ames
Filmed all the. Filmed all the stuff that hung him.
- [187:51]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, well, he, he was a filmmaker before he got into Nexium. And then he was kind of hired internally to document everything because Keith wanted a library of his genius to live on. And Mark was an incredibly skilled DP and trained a bunch of people in NXIVM to film every waking moment and sleeping moment sometimes of Keith and all the trainings and all his, all his wisdom. So as soon as shit went sideways, we just continued to film. So, so smart. We didn't know this was going to be an HBO series. We just knew, if anything, we were filming things to protect ourselves.
- [188:25]
Nippy Ames
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of how we thought about it at the time. We thought, okay, look, we didn't do anything wrong here. The perpetrator is Keith Ranieri. But we know that they're going to come after us, start making stuff up about us, start gaslighting us, saying, victimize themselves to us. So we need to.
- [188:40]
Sarah Edmondson
Which they did.
- [188:41]
Nippy Ames
Which they did. Which they tried.
- [188:42]
Sarah Edmondson
I mean, Claire came to Vancouver to try to get me arrested. She flew to Vancouver to speak to the Vancouver police Bronfman and made up a bunch of things I stole from them. It was the theft, mischief and fraud and all of those things. I, you know, I had to hire a criminal defense lawyer. I, you know, it was a very bad, stressful time.
- [189:06]
Nippy Ames
Some of my friends that, you know, ultimately, ultimately people saw the truth that were, that were loyal at the time. They called me and they were like, yeah, she came to me and she said, okay, give me the dirt on Nippy and Sarah that you have.
- [189:16]
Megyn Kelly
I'm sure I don't have any accurately.
- [189:20]
Security Expert
What have we been doing?
- [189:22]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, that they were in an existential crisis that, you know, Nexium and its fate hung in the balance. Yeah, we created, and you mentioned like that Keith knew that it was his initials that were being used in the brand. There was evidence of that submitted during his 2019 trial. This clip we're going to play here is via USA Today. And it's, it's Keith and the actress Alison Mack we've mentioned a couple times here. She was one of the stars of the show Smallville and was a critical part of all this, including dos and the branding and so on. And then a master of, quote, slaves and his sort of right hand person. And here's the two of them on tape discussing the brand.
- [190:04]
Nippy Ames
You think the person who's being branded should be completely nude and sort of Held to the table like a sort
- [190:13]
Megyn Kelly
of almost like a sacrifice.
- [190:15]
Nippy Ames
I don't know if that. That's a feeling of submission. You know, videoing it from different angles or whatever gives collateral. It probably should be a more vulnerable position type of a thing. Back leg slightly for legs spread straight.
- [190:38]
Megyn Kelly
Like feet being held to the side
- [190:40]
Nippy Ames
of the table, hands probably above the head being held almost like tied down, like a sacrificial whatever.
- [190:47]
Megyn Kelly
And the person should ask to be branded. Okay.
- [190:52]
Nippy Ames
Should say, please brand me. It would be an honor or something like that.
- [190:56]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Not an honor I want to wear
- [190:57]
Megyn Kelly
for the rest of my life.
- [190:58]
Nippy Ames
I don't know.
- [190:59]
Sarah Edmondson
Okay.
- [191:02]
Megyn Kelly
And they. They did make the women say something like that. Something along the lines of honor master,
- [191:11]
Sarah Edmondson
would you brand me? It would be an honor. Which is basically him proving in his mind that we asked for it, that it was a consensual thing.
- [191:19]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, that must be so galling to listen to.
- [191:23]
Sarah Edmondson
Horrific. And also vindicating because he's in jail. He's in jail. Until that point, there were still people saying who were defending him. He had nothing to do with the branding. This is a bunch of women who made some bad decisions and they shouldn't have done it. And Keith has nothing to do with the branding. And now there's video or audio evidence of not only that he knew about it, but he came up with the idea of how to do it and pass it off to Allison so that she would take the fall. So it's. It's Tripoli aggravated, not. There's no word. Astonishing, Horrific,
- [191:58]
Nippy Ames
infuriating side of a guy who's just diabolical.
- [192:01]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, but you know what, you know what we're missing? And like, I want to address that portion of the audience that's like, well, that was. That was not a great decision. But you made it. You know, you accepted this brand. It went well beyond. That's not why he's in jail right now. It was a sex trafficking scheme. I mean, he was having young women who he was brainwashing into starving themselves nearly to death. Entering this so called sisterhood, which was really a sex cult meant to service, was him. You weren't one of those, Sarah. Right, that was. But many other women were basically being groomed. I mean, not basically they were being groomed. They were to be Keith Ranieri's sex slave.
- [192:42]
Sarah Edmondson
Yep. And that's the thing. When people say you chose it, you could have left. Whatever. It's really important to understand. In my mind, I've committed to this game, like in a fraternity or sorority where someone's telling me what to do. And I'm saying yes, because that's the commitment. A vow of obedience is what I've done. I think this is an exercise. And one of my exercises is to get this brand so I do it. Other women had other things. And so the collateral, this is a key point. It's like a gun to the head. If you don't do the things, your collateral is going to be released. So that's not really a choice. In the cult space, they call it binded choice. A bounded. Sorry. Bounded choice. A bounded choice where, like there's. There. There's no. Actually no way out.
- [193:24]
Security Expert
You.
- [193:24]
Sarah Edmondson
You have to do the. Yes. So the other women had assignments like, you know, go seduce Keith. India talked about that in, in her story, that that was her assignment and other women had to do other things with Keith and that was their assignment and that's what they committed to and they went along with it as well. Because what are you going to do? You're going to lose everything. And also admit, hey, I just made a really bad decision, which is one of the components of it that keeps people kind of, you know, doubling down.
- [193:56]
Megyn Kelly
The Indy Oxenberg story. She's Catherine's daughter. They join this again. Catherine has such guilt over this because she thought she was bringing her daughter to a self help program to help her learn business skills and did not foresee what was going to happen. Shortly into it, Catherine recognized, this is not for me. I. I don't know, I'm out. But India was getting something out of the lessons and stayed. And before Catherine knew it, India was completely untethered from her, was being intentionally separated from her. Her loving mother. And Catherine knew she's gone. And now it's turned from like, it's turned into a rescue operation. And was doing everything within her power to try to get India back. But India at this point is brainwashed. And the mere threat of, like, I'm gonna take you out, you need to get out. Keith is a threat. Would otherize Catherine even more. I mean, that the person who's inside the cult is like, oh, hell no. And Catherine spoke to me in her first interview about this before India had got been, you know, pulled out, before Keith had been arrested. And India, I mean, Catherine's a very well known Hollywood actor and going to the media was truly her last resort. Here's a little bit of that interview from early or it was early. It was late 2017.
- [195:26]
Sarah Edmondson
The program that seduces people to abandon their lives to serve their agenda rather than Empowering your preexisting life. There's something off about that. So I watched her get sucked in. The more I learned, because defectors can came and told me about their experiences, the more concerned I became. And I realized that I did an intervention with her at the end of May, and I failed. This is my last resort, going to the media. My daughter is very, very angry with me right now, and she has every right to be angry with me because I would hate my mom if my mom came out and publicly exposed her in this way, exposed me. But I love her to the end of the world. And I'm only doing this to bring awareness, because without awareness, there can be no outrage. And unless there's outrage, the authorities are not going to step in and do
- [196:15]
Megyn Kelly
what they should do, which is shut this down. Oh. What's your reaction to seeing that, Sarah?
- [196:24]
Sarah Edmondson
I remember that interview. I was so grateful. I don't know if you remember, but I was. Your team had asked me to be there, and I wasn't emotionally strong enough to. To do live tv. I just didn't think I could handle it. But I was so grateful that Catherine had the strength to speak when we couldn't. And brings back a lot of memories of a time when, you know, we were all just throwing our punches and that media punch. And, you know, Catherine's role in the takedown was. Was really important. We all had a very different role. Me with showing the physical abuse and Mark Vicente and Bonnie and Catherine, like. And Nippy, like there was. There wasn't many of us that were willing to talk.
- [197:06]
Nippy Ames
People before us, too.
- [197:07]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah. And people before us who tried in. In 2009. Like, it just, like this was a fight that took so much of our life force, you know, our life force in it, thinking sources and resources. And then afterwards and watching it, it just. Just brings back a lot of memories of a very stressful time because we didn't know what was going to happen in the trial. We didn't know if Keith was going to be convicted or not. Even now, to this day, he's still appealing to. You know, a couple this week found out his third or fourth appeal was denied. He's still trying. Like it's. It's an ongoing stressor. And that seeing that video is. Yeah, it's. It's a reminder of what. What we've been through. And, and can I tell you. So happy.
- [197:51]
Megyn Kelly
Let me tell you something petty about me. You just said that you didn't accept our invitation to come on because you were not ready for Live. Which makes absolutely perfect sense. I remember at the time, because I really wanted you. Your story was amazing, and we were really covering this case aggressively and honestly. Yeah. I was so disappointed. And I remember thinking, she doesn't want to come on because I was with Fox.
- [198:14]
Sarah Edmondson
Oh, no, no.
- [198:16]
Megyn Kelly
You know, we make up these stories in our heads, right? I mean, I'm just sitting here. Well, I mean, you know how it
- [198:21]
Nippy Ames
is time we're in too, right?
- [198:23]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah.
- [198:23]
Megyn Kelly
Yes. Oh, I'm so glad that we.
- [198:25]
Sarah Edmondson
We've cleared up.
- [198:26]
Megyn Kelly
I know this dinette. No, it's. No, I just tell it because I bet there's a million women out there and guys who tell themselves stories about. Oh, it's something about me. There's something wrong with me, what I did, why I didn't get this thing, or why I didn't get invited to this thing, or this person didn't say yes to my invitation. We make up the worst stories about ourselves. Like, there's something wrong with me. I'm. I'm branded too, right? I'm branded in a way. And then you, you know, you talk to the person, you find out I'm a idiot. Why do I do this to myself?
- [198:58]
Sarah Edmondson
I love that you share that. And I love that I got to. To tell you, because it's, you know, it's been a long time, a long time coming. And I've been so grateful for your activism around it because it was such a. That interview was such a. An extra punch in an already very. We just didn't know it was going to happen. And that was. That really helped us. So.
- [199:20]
Megyn Kelly
Because the authorities weren't doing anything. No, they weren't doing anything.
- [199:24]
Sarah Edmondson
No, no, no. I mean, they did.
- [199:26]
Nippy Ames
For the record, I show Sarah clips of. Of Megan Kelly on. Off Twitter. I go see, she gets it.
- [199:32]
Sarah Edmondson
Oh, yeah, you get it. We. We. We know you get it.
- [199:36]
Nippy Ames
Yeah.
- [199:37]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, thank you.
- [199:39]
Sarah Edmondson
Especially shit everywhere right now.
- [199:41]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, I mean, it's terrifying. And the more vulnerable people are post Covid. And in our weird world where we don't know who to trust and the media's falling apart even more so. So finally the police, the FBI, they. They do get involved. It. It took all of you, all the names you just mentioned, Catherine, all of you. And by the way, I should mention, before I forget, India, thank God, finally saw the light, got out and did her own documentary that she did on her own terms. And so I was very happy for her and for Catherine, too. I mean, that story individually is just about a mother's incredible love for her child and what a mother will do, but she's in this, the vow, too. All of you are there working, as you say, your own pieces of it. Everybody had a different sort of gift and a risk to take. And ultimately, he does. He does get brought down. He gets arrested in Mexico, and still the top echelon of the women are, like, running after the car as they take him away. They just were completely brainwashed that he. He was some sort of messiah. He was genuinely important to them.
- [200:51]
Nippy Ames
Yeah, it was nut.
- [200:55]
Megyn Kelly
And did you ever think that there actually would be a trial or that he'd kill himself or flee again or somehow find a way to manipulate the system because he's a very good manipulator to get the charges dropped?
- [201:08]
Nippy Ames
Well, narcissists don't kill themselves.
- [201:11]
Megyn Kelly
That's a good point.
- [201:14]
Sarah Edmondson
That's a good point. I did think that he would. That he was a flight risk. Claire owned this island in Fiji, and I did.
- [201:23]
Megyn Kelly
We.
- [201:24]
Sarah Edmondson
I just really did think that he would get away with it somehow. Even with the. Every appeal, I'm like, oh, my goodness, we're gonna. Are we going back to square one? He is so manipulative. He's so conniving. He's such a sociopath. Will he get out of it?
- [201:37]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, there.
- [201:38]
Nippy Ames
There was, okay, where I remember thinking, this is going to be the next five to 10 years of our life with Claire Bronfman just filing suits against us, bankrupting us. You know that? Because that's what she.
- [201:51]
Megyn Kelly
That's what she did. Very litigious. On his behalf. Sorry. Keep going, Nippy.
- [201:55]
Nippy Ames
Yeah. And I just remember thinking, this is not good. And I remember thinking about my kids, you know, when my. My one son at the time was like, his childhood is going to have this going on until he's 9 or 10. And I just remember thinking. And then once the New York Times article came out, I felt. I didn't feel entirely safe, but I felt safer because I knew they had other problems. And Sarah and Nippy weren't, you know, enemy number one. We were, because they had to put out a lot more fires because a lot more people were speaking and a lot of other problems were happening. And they took their guns off us. I didn't know. I didn't know that we were in the clear. And the way the FBI and the way this thing happened and how quickly it happened. He was arrested in March of 18, and he was tried and convicted by June of 19. So in under two years, really, this whole thing happened. And he was sentenced to 120 years and. Oh, and five years probation. It's my favorite part of it.
- [202:59]
Megyn Kelly
That's perfect. And. And what? Can you explain what.
- [203:01]
Sarah Edmondson
For?
- [203:01]
Megyn Kelly
What was he convicted? What did. What did the court.
- [203:04]
Nippy Ames
There were seven counts. I don't know. I think it was wire fraud, sex
- [203:09]
Sarah Edmondson
trafficking, conspiracy to commit.
- [203:14]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, man.
- [203:14]
Sarah Edmondson
It's been a while since I've recited this.
- [203:16]
Nippy Ames
Labor, Rico.
- [203:17]
Dr. Leonard Sax
There were.
- [203:18]
Megyn Kelly
the heart of the case was the. The manipulation of the young women into becoming, like, his sex cult.
- [203:25]
Nippy Ames
Yes.
- [203:26]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah.
- [203:28]
Nippy Ames
I think it's important to mention Moira Penza, because she read the article, and it wasn't tried in the Northern District. It was tried in the Southern District.
- [203:38]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Right.
- [203:39]
Sarah Edmondson
Eastern.
- [203:39]
Nippy Ames
Eastern District.
- [203:41]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Would.
- [203:41]
Nippy Ames
Eastern. Would JFK be Eastern District?
- [203:44]
Sarah Edmondson
Where's the. Where's the parkland?
- [203:45]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, yes.
- [203:46]
Nippy Ames
JFK airport. So that'll be the Eastern District because that's where the sex trafficking happened, at a JFK airport, technically. So that became their. Their jurisdiction. So she was able to try the
- [203:55]
Sarah Edmondson
case because originally we went to the Northern District, and they were like, well, you agreed to it.
- [204:00]
Nippy Ames
And then they were like, cool story. Thanks. And didn't.
- [204:04]
Sarah Edmondson
There's a whole case there. Then the corruption in that district.
- [204:07]
Nippy Ames
It's hard to tell. It's hard for me to believe that he could have gotten away with the things that he gotten away with, with the complaints that have been going on up there without greasing some wheels. I don't know how that works. I'm kind again, I'm out of my lane in that. But it just seems to me there was a lot of abuses of power that are going on up there. And if I were to pick somewhere to try and get away with it, I think upstate New York would be kind of a sleepy place where you could just kind of get away with it. No one would be my people. That's my guess.
- [204:35]
Megyn Kelly
No, I know we used to call it, what, Smallbonny? Because it's like. It's a small. I. I think people were shocked that anything like this could happen. And there may have been a measure of embarrassment that it went on for so long right under everyone's nose. So, you know, you may not be wrong on that. So did you have to testify at the trial?
- [204:54]
Sarah Edmondson
I did not. I was one of the first people to speak with Moira and her team at the FBI and spent two and a half days with my lawyer and just gave them everything I knew. I set the scene, like how the company worked the stripe path, everything I knew about DOS and all my photos, all my Text messages, everything. I think I actually gave them my phone on my computer to mirror and said, have at it. And then that brought in other people and subpoenas and everything. I ended up not having to testify, I believe, because I would have been testifying against Lauren and Lauren in the end turned on Keith. So I didn't need to. I think also I would have been a bad witness because I had done a lot of press at that point.
- [205:37]
Nippy Ames
He just said.
- [205:39]
Sarah Edmondson
And that would have been something that Mark Igniflo would have gone in on, like. Isn't it true, Sarah, that you've written a book? Yeah, you know, Yeah, I wrote a book. Like, so I wasn't a good witness at that point. And what had happened to me wasn't even so bad compared to what had happened to other women. So I didn't have to testify, thank goodness, because I also had a newborn infant and was breastfeeding. And I was. Did not want to have to go to Brooklyn and testify and see that.
- [206:06]
Megyn Kelly
Did you ever get the chance to anyway, like, have the come to Jesus moment with Lauren, like friend to friend?
- [206:13]
Sarah Edmondson
No, I wish I had. I wish I had. The closest we've had is she wrote a letter around just before her conviction. A very heartfelt apology, which I totally believe. She seems to have completely woken up, takes full responsibility for what she was going for, how she was able to maintain the cognitive dissonance and, you know, basically lied to me to bring me. Bring me into this thing so she could be in Keith's good graces.
- [206:39]
Nippy Ames
Her testimony did put the nail in the coffin for Keith.
- [206:42]
Sarah Edmondson
Her testimony meant that I didn't have to testify. And. Yeah, it was the.
- [206:46]
Megyn Kelly
What specifically do you remember? Like what. What was the crux of what she said that was so damning for him?
- [206:54]
Nippy Ames
I think she laid out his psychology pretty well.
- [206:57]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah. And. And just how specifically? I'd have to go back and look at the transcripts. It's been a while. But I think specifically how he mastermind the whole thing and how it was like that from the beginning. Not just with dos, but this is the world that he created. And that's. I don't know legally what it was that. That fortified. How. Like why she was the star witness. Exactly.
- [207:20]
Megyn Kelly
But she knew where all the bodies.
- [207:23]
Nippy Ames
Yeah, exactly.
- [207:24]
Sarah Edmondson
Yes, exactly.
- [207:25]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Yeah. I remember when we did our NBC primetime special on this, a separate show we got into. He has this long history of being a pyramid scheme guy, a failed businessman. Like this was not his first fraud or attempted fraud. He'd had actually a couple before this, he was a con man.
- [207:43]
Nippy Ames
Yep.
- [207:44]
Sarah Edmondson
100%.
- [207:45]
Megyn Kelly
Yep, yep.
- [207:46]
Sarah Edmondson
He. He'd been caught. And then of course, when we heard about that story, he spun that. That, you know, he was a threat to the government and they had to shut him down. And of course, that's what happens when you teach ethics in the world.
- [207:59]
Nippy Ames
You know, a lot of good people advocating for him.
- [208:03]
Megyn Kelly
So Lauren goes to jail too, didn't. Didn't she? Or she. She got three years probation. Is that what happened?
- [208:08]
Nippy Ames
Probation.
- [208:09]
Sarah Edmondson
Probation, yeah.
- [208:10]
Megyn Kelly
Okay.
- [208:11]
Sarah Edmondson
Just to wrap up. Yeah, sorry. That overlap. That what you asked earlier. I begging my lawyers to be able to have, you know, heart to heart or zoom or see her. But until there's a civil case still, until that's wrapped up, we're not allowed to communicate. But I hope that one day we will. Don't know if we'll ever be best friends again, but I. I'd love to just close that chapter with her personally.
- [208:35]
Megyn Kelly
Please give us a heads up when that's going to happen, because we will listen to and we'll definitely talk about it here on the show. So she gets probation. Allison Mack, the Smallville actress, actually got, I think she got three years in jail. She served two. She's out now, if my math is correct.
- [208:52]
Sarah Edmondson
Yes.
- [208:53]
Megyn Kelly
Claire Bronfman got sentenced. She. To actual jail time. A year. Did she get a year or more?
- [208:59]
Nippy Ames
She got triple the. The maximum sentence she's still in. Triple the minimum. Since she's still in jail. She'll be in jail, I think, till 20, 25. And she just got moved to a halfway house, I think, like two, three weeks ago in the Bronx or the Queen or Queens.
- [209:13]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, I said far, far away. Away from Fiji. So there's been actual accountability. There's been actual punishment for those involved. And then Keith in jail for the rest of his life, plus the probation, as you point out at the end. So where does that leave you guys? Right? You. You tamed the tiger. Like, you got it. It happened. Nexivm is done. It's been exposed and he's in jail and all of his enablers are in jail. You've come out publicly. The world knows. So what happens to you after that?
- [209:49]
Sarah Edmondson
There's a lot of therapy, a lot of time in nature. Covid was actually a wonderful heat.
- [209:55]
Nippy Ames
It was a blessing.
- [209:56]
Sarah Edmondson
Blessing for us actually, to pause and just go for hikes and make pancakes and be with our family. Sorry. Oh, we have a beautiful family. And we had time to enjoy it. We'd been in the group for so long. And then fighting to expose the group. For so long we hadn't actually had a break and that was much needed break. And then the HBO documentary came out in Covid. And then our lives blew up again in a very strange and, and also very meaningful way to be. To have people reach out to us and, and say, holy shit. I didn't realize I was in a cult or in a. In a course of. Or abusive relationship until I saw the vow and like thousands of messages and letters. And because it was Covid and we'd stopped acting, we decided to start a little podcast to keep the conversations going.
- [210:52]
Nippy Ames
Well, we had someone reach out to us whose birthday it is today. Actually, our. Our associate producer, Jess Tardy wrote us an email and said, you guys should do a podcast and laid out a season for us. Call it a little bit culty, call it this. And I was in the inertia of no, I was done having my personal life becoming other people's entertainment. It was kind of my reluctance to be a part of a documentary in the first place. And Sarah was kind of like, well, maybe. And then we spoke to someone else about it.
- [211:19]
Sarah Edmondson
Well, citizens of sound citizens were ex evangelical Christians also seen it reached out to us. So those two people kind of came together and, and sort of laid out this path for a podcast. And we, you know, we love talking about it and it was a healing like another, another. Other people that we know needed to go not talk about it. And for us, talking about it was very cathartic and helping others see the red flags and heal was our recovery. So that's, that's been our recovery. And I wrote a memoir to. That encompasses my time in the book. But now we're working on a. A more of a part two of everything we've learned since the podcast. All the experts who've helped us.
- [212:00]
Nippy Ames
I'm sure a lot of the. Oh, I'm sorry.
- [212:04]
Sarah Edmondson
Sorry, say that again.
- [212:05]
Megyn Kelly
I was just. I was saying I'm sure it's going to change. Like what you, what you've learned and you're going to change. You're still pretty close to it all.
- [212:11]
Sarah Edmondson
Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the thing. When I look back at the memoirs like that I did not. I was still healing. I was only a year out when I decided to write that. Which it was in many ways was a draft, a draft of an understanding. I know so much more about cults and coercion and narcissism, gaslighting and all of these things that have become such a huge part of the zeitgeist. Now, I mean, half of my female
- [212:35]
Megyn Kelly
friends talk about this and they're dating partners. I think this could be helpful even if you're not in a cult or getting recruited by one. Go ahead, Nippy.
- [212:43]
Nippy Ames
I was gonna say, you know, serendipitously, as we've educated ourselves on what goes on in cults, you know, a lot of the parallels that go on in there are going on, you know, everywhere you look for, you know, whether it be in politics, whether it be, you know, with the vaccine, with all, you know, there's not any real field that's not immune to what these abuses of power look like and sound like. So putting language to it has been educational and it's also been, you know, a really important journey for us because we're running into it in our day to day lives. And, you know, I want my kids to know what this looks like and sounds like, and I want other people to know what it looks like and sounds like. And I think if people are armed with this education, armed with this language, they can walk into situations and point it out in real time. So when you're faced with something like in your situation or other people's situations, they can go, oh, that's just like this. Just like this. And it can at least attempt to have a civil discourse about it. And when the flat red flags come up, they'll know what they're looking at so they can make an informed decision.
- [213:44]
Megyn Kelly
It's a way of inoculating yourself to be informed and to recognize these warning signs and just know when it comes to you, whether it's in a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a business, an employer or a real live cult that you may have inadvertently fallen into. Thank you both so much for coming on and telling this story again. I know it wasn't easy, but I really hope you've done some good here too. I know that you have, and I hope you feel okay about it. I got blessed.
- [214:12]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Thank you.
- [214:12]
Nippy Ames
Appreciate it.
- [214:14]
Sarah Edmondson
Thank you so much. Megan, maybe one day you'll come and tell us your full Fox News story on our podcast.
- [214:20]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I'll come on. A little bit culty. Yeah, I've got a couple of those.
- [214:23]
Nippy Ames
Fox News. A little bit culty.
- [214:25]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, sure, I'd be happy to. The more I learn, the more I'm like, oh, my God, there was no Kool Aid, but we were one step away. Lots of love to you, Bo.
- [214:35]
Nippy Ames
There's a water cooler.
- [214:37]
Megyn Kelly
That's right. Good luck with it. And I'm doubtful, I'm Glad we got
- [214:41]
Sarah Edmondson
to clear up the misunderstanding from six years ago.
- [214:44]
Megyn Kelly
There wasn't even a misunderstanding. This is my own deranged thinking. So thank you for helping me learn to be better. See, there you go. Still empowering other women.
- [214:54]
Sarah Edmondson
At vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support. So we plan for the plot twists.
- [215:01]
Megyn Kelly
Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care guarantee. Giving you confidence.
- [215:05]
Sarah Edmondson
Confidence from the very start.
- [215:07]
Megyn Kelly
Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay, through the moments in between
- [215:11]
Sarah Edmondson
and after your trip.
- [215:13]
Megyn Kelly
Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist. But we've got the peace of mind part covered. The GLP1 pill you've been waiting for is now on row. Yep, it's finally here.
- [215:27]
Sarah Edmondson
With the same clinically proven ingredient now in a pillow.
- [215:31]
Megyn Kelly
And now on Roe. It's the first FDA approved GLP1 pill for weight loss at the lowest price available. That's one daily GLP1 pill for big results now on Ro go to Roe Co Listen to see if you qualify RX only go to Roe Co Safety for serious side effects and boxed warning associated with GLP1s. I have a story that I need to share with you. It's one I've never told publicly before. And to do it right it took virtually my entire family on my husband's side. January 22, 2021 Much of the world is still shut down due to Covid our family still living in Manhattan and getting ready to travel south for the weekend for my nephew's wedding. As I pack up that Friday, my husband Doug calls relaying that he has just heard from his then 84 year old mother Jackie in Philadelphia. She's received a disturbing phone call from her daughter Diane. Diane and her partner Brad are oyster fishermen on Cape Cod.
- [216:43]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
She was hysterical sobbing and couldn't complete a flight awful sentence. But she said that she was in jail on a drunk driving charge and that she we I needed to get talk to somebody that she had a telephone number and I they were going to talk to me about getting bail and this was on a Friday, which I don't know. Anyway, I didn't know much of anything but I kept asking her if she was all right and I just. I just didn't know what to do. She just said I'm so scared. I'm terrified. And I asked her where Brad was and she said well, he's in jail too. But she said I don't really have time. They're not giving me long to talk you need to call this number.
- [218:00]
Megyn Kelly
So what did you do next?
- [218:02]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
I called the number, and he told me that the court was closed on Friday and it was Covid, so they had limited times when you could get in. And he told me to call this lawyer whose name I can't remember, and he would walk me through getting the bail money.
- [218:35]
Megyn Kelly
So this was the court that you were talking to saying, you need to talk to a lawyer. Here's a number you can call.
- [218:43]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
Yes.
- [218:45]
Megyn Kelly
And then did you call the lawyer?
- [218:47]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
I did. I asked him why. Why is she there on a drunk driving charge when she doesn't drive, when she doesn't drink? And he said, well, she told me she didn't drink. And I believed her. So I've sent off a tox screen or, you know, I've sent off for a blood test. I didn't know why Brad was. And that once either the court told me or the lawyer told that Brad was in because he assaulted a policeman at the scene of the accident.
- [219:29]
Megyn Kelly
The lawyer told Jackie the bail for both of them was 17,000 bucks.
- [219:34]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
I said, well, I just don't have that kind of cash to. I don't have that kind of money to give you. I said, I'm gonna have. I'm going to call my son.
- [219:45]
Megyn Kelly
And she did. And that's where her son, my husband, Doug Brunt, comes in.
- [219:49]
Doug Brunt
I was in the car and my mom called, and she was distressed and agitated and frustrated, saying that she had just gotten off the phone with Diane, and Diane had been in a car accident. She broke her nose, and she was hysterically bawling from basically the holding cell at the jail on Cape Cod, and that she had this one phone call to make. So she had called my mom, but she needed to be bailed out. Both she and Brad had been arrested. So I'm asking my mom a bunch of questions, you know, what the heck happened? And she was telling me as best she could because it was a short phone call. And apparently Diane was, you know, sobbing through her broken nose about what had happened. But in short, a car accident. She broke her nose in the car accident.
- [220:31]
Security Expert
They.
- [220:32]
Doug Brunt
The police came. They thought that she had been drinking and driving. The police got aggressive with Diane. In response to that, Brad got aggressive with the police to defend Diane, and they arrested them both. And so they're now in jail in Cape Cod. Diane gave my mom this phone number to call, who was her court appointed lawyer. And my mom had already spoken with this lawyer. She gives me the number saying it's very confusing, you know, all of this was happening during COVID And so he had these reasons why the court was about to close. It was a Friday afternoon. It closes early on Fridays. Now due to Covid, Nobody's even in there due to Covid. And we need to rush $17,000 over to the court or else Diane and Brad are going to spend the full weekend in jail. And, you know, everything's going to shut down over the weekend. So they're in there unless we can somehow get the money to bail them out. And we had something like a two hour timeframe, right?
- [221:26]
Megyn Kelly
So I remember you called me, you call me and you say, I'm like, honey, handle this. Yeah, basically. And I was like, where's Abby? Abby, we need you. So we were like, wait, this is impossible, first of all. Cause like, the audience doesn't know Diane and Brad, but they are the nicest, kindest, most upstanding, cool people. Like, these are not even potentially drunk driving lunatics who attack the cops.
- [221:53]
Doug Brunt
They're not. I mean, I think if. If someone got aggressive with Diane, I could see Brad stepping in that. That made some sense. But otherwise none of it was in character.
- [222:01]
Megyn Kelly
The only thing that gave us pause was it was Covid. Things were nuts. Everyone was behaving bizarrely. So there really was a piece that was like, did they have some sort of a meltdown? Did something like what we. It was so bizarre.
- [222:16]
Doug Brunt
So mom, my mom gave me the phone number. I called a lawyer. He was, he needs $17,000 in cash.
- [222:22]
Security Expert
He.
- [222:22]
Doug Brunt
He reiterates much of what my mom told me, which is the window is closing. It's, you know, due to COVID protocols, the whole thing shuts down at, you know, 4 o' clock on a Friday. And it goes dark for the weekend. So we have only this amount of time to get them out of, you know, the holding cell. So, you know, can you get $17,000 in cash to Cape Cod right now? And I'm thinking, I can't get myself to cape cod in two hours, let alone $17,000 in cash. So you and I start scrambling for ideas to how to deal with this, right?
- [222:52]
Megyn Kelly
So we're like, we're. And it's not that easy to get $17,000 cash like that. So I'm trying to figure out how to get the money. And you're talking to your mom, trying to calm your mom down. You're calling your brothers, letting them know what's happening with Dai. Everybody's like, my God, this is a nightmare. And what was the next thing that happened? I'm trying to remember the next step in the chain.
- [223:11]
Doug Brunt
We were scrambling around to try to get money. We were talking to the lawyer. We'd ask him questions like, you know, what is a way we can, can do this? And we had the idea to call Diane, Brad's friend in Cape Cod, who has sort of a whale watching business. He has a number of big charter boats where you can go out and watch the whales off Provincetown.
- [223:31]
Megyn Kelly
Which we've done with him before.
- [223:32]
Doug Brunt
Which we've done with it. Yeah. So Steve. And so we call Steve, who, thank God, picks up the phone and we get him up to speed on the problem.
- [223:42]
Megyn Kelly
Here's that friend, Steve from Cape Cod.
- [223:45]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Apparently, this needed to be done locally. So Doug called me because I'm a close friend of both Brad and Diane. It was a pretty large sum and he said that I be reimbursed after we got him out. But because it was a weekend, things couldn't be done normally.
- [224:04]
Doug Brunt
So then we call back to Laura and say, we've got someone on the ground on the Cape with the cash. Where do we go? He says, actually, I'm not there now. So there's no one to receive the cash. So he pivoted to saying, you can use cryptocurrency because of, again, Covid, the courts will accept. In these extreme circumstances, the courts will actually accept cryptocurrency.
- [224:28]
Megyn Kelly
And he was saying he was going to give us a wire to send it directly to the court.
- [224:31]
Doug Brunt
There was a phone to the court. We could call the court. And they had, you know, they matched up case numbers.
- [224:35]
Megyn Kelly
And we did call the court. Yeah, we called the court. We dialed the number and that the lawyer had given us. We had an official person answer. We were put on hold. They asked us for the case number. We gave them the case number. They looked it up. They said Diane and Brad, they had their names and they verified everything that we had been told thus far. When we come back, what happened to Brad and Diane? Thankfully, Steve was on the case. Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly Show. We are picking up my conversation with Doug about what happened as soon as we got the instructions on how to get the crypto delivered.
- [225:20]
Doug Brunt
So I remember you were in Manhattan at the time. So I guess he went online and found locations where they have crypto kiosks where you can basically insert cash and it comes out on the other end as cryptocurrency. So that's our next plan. But at this point we're like, this is nuts. This is very sketchy real. But I Still thought, you know, going back to what we know, Diane's still in jail.
- [225:45]
Megyn Kelly
Was like, maybe there's a sketchy lawyer involved. But really we were like, Diane and Brad are in trouble. Yeah. And we've got to find a way of helping them. And thank God that you enlisted Steve.
- [225:55]
Doug Brunt
Yeah. So when we call Steve, we say it's gotta be crypto now. So stand down on the brown bag of cash. And so Steve's thinking this is nuts. So he, but he's now fully in it. You know, he's, he thought Diane, Brad, needed rescuing. So he's still in rescue mode.
- [226:10]
Megyn Kelly
Steve asks for the lawyer's number so he can arrange this payment directly. And here the lawyer gets something very wrong. As Jackie would later explain to me,
- [226:20]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
the town was Barnstable. And he said Barnstable because it's spelled that way. But up there they call it Barnstable.
- [226:33]
Dr. Leonard Sax
No one local that would have known straight off, you know, he didn't speak like he was even here. So. So that was a dead giveaway.
- [226:41]
Megyn Kelly
That's when Steve decided to drive by Diane and Brad's house and to call the house phone on the way there. Where were Diane and Brad?
- [226:49]
Nippy Ames
In our living room
- [226:53]
Security Expert
having a great day.
- [226:54]
Dr. Leonard Sax
It was a regular perfect day in our lives.
- [226:57]
Megyn Kelly
Not in jail, not punching out cops, happy at home.
- [227:00]
Dr. Leonard Sax
It had been a long time since
- [227:02]
Nippy Ames
we'd been in jail.
- [227:05]
Dr. Leonard Sax
I was in my recliner and I was very comfortable.
- [227:09]
Nippy Ames
In fact, it's a swivel recliner that, you know, goes back and forth. It goes every direction in the house.
- [227:15]
Dr. Leonard Sax
I live in it, it's perfect.
- [227:17]
Doug Brunt
None of it was real.
- [227:19]
Megyn Kelly
They had no idea any of this was going on.
- [227:21]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Right.
- [227:22]
Doug Brunt
And we'd been running around for hours at this point. Hysterical.
- [227:26]
Megyn Kelly
They were totally fine. There had been no incident whatsoever.
- [227:30]
Doug Brunt
Yeah.
- [227:30]
Megyn Kelly
Yes. Doug and I, with all of our so called higher education and city sophistication had almost been had by some con man until Steve, the Cape Cod whale watch guy, shut the whole thing down.
- [227:45]
Nippy Ames
So I just stopped and took a
- [227:49]
Dr. Leonard Sax
breath and thought it out a little bit and it just didn't make any sense to me at all. He's just, he is so incredibly capable
- [227:59]
Nippy Ames
at every aspect of life. Like he just is just a can do guy.
- [228:04]
Dr. Leonard Sax
There's nothing like he's unstoppable, especially in,
- [228:07]
Nippy Ames
in like his business.
- [228:08]
Dr. Leonard Sax
And you know, and dealing with stuff
- [228:10]
Nippy Ames
on the water too makes you that way.
- [228:12]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Because when you're out on a, on
- [228:14]
Nippy Ames
a boat or a ship, you can't walk home if there's a problem. So he has that mentality that wherever he's standing, he can fix the problem.
- [228:22]
Megyn Kelly
Steve is also, like, a cool customer. Like, he's not. Like he told us after the fact. Yeah. He's like, yeah. I mean, when. And when he. When I answered the phone and it was Steve, he said, oh, good, you're home. I have to call Doug. Like, in that tone of voice, he wasn't like, oh, my God, you're safe. You know, he doesn't overreact anything. He's great in a crisis. And he. When we asked him later, he said, I was going to call you. If you didn't answer, I was going to go to your house. If you weren't there, I was going to go to the Wellfleet Police, our town. And if they didn't know anything about it, I was gonna end there. If they did, I was gonna go to Barnstable with the money. So he was never. He's unflappable. So Steve figured this whole thing out, and Doug and I began asking ourselves, how on earth did we almost fall for this nonsense? Well, it all boiled down to one thing. In our defense, we believed that Doug's mom had actually spoken with Diane.
- [229:22]
Doug Brunt
That was the key to this whole thing running us out as long as it did. Because what we thought we had in the category of things we know wasn't right. That was a bad assumption.
- [229:32]
Megyn Kelly
Right. They had fooled your mom, which is absolutely amazing. That they fooled her about her own daughter's voice, hence the importance of the broken nose.
- [229:40]
Doug Brunt
Yeah, right, Right. They had so many tricks. And then, of course, Covid was just open the door to so many of these stupid things, because we're all. Everything was ridiculous then.
- [229:49]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. That's why they didn't. She didn't get it. Your mom heard a hysterical adult woman claiming she had broken her nose, which would explain a different voice. And she went with it. She believed it.
- [230:01]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
I thought it was Diane. And still it. I. If I could hear it again, I would still think it was Diane.
- [230:12]
Megyn Kelly
You believed it because why.
- [230:16]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
Sounded like her voice. And the panic. I mean, I could take the. It just seemed like she was crying and scream and not screaming. She was just kind of hysterical, and it sounded like her. The whole situation did not sound like her. But I really couldn't, you know, at the time, I couldn't really work my way through the car. Car accident. And I did realize that. That they. She would have been in a drunk driving accident. Which is why I asked the lawyer that.
- [231:05]
Megyn Kelly
Right, Because Diane doesn't drink.
- [231:08]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
No.
- [231:09]
Megyn Kelly
Right.
- [231:09]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
And that's why he said he believed her when she told him that. And that's why he sent off a blood test.
- [231:18]
Megyn Kelly
When you found out that this was an attempted fraud, what did you think? What was your reaction?
- [231:27]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
I was wondering how I could have been so stupid, frankly. I mean, I just sort of thoroughly bought into that. And by that time, it was out of my hands. And I just watch all of you take over and figure it out.
- [231:47]
Nippy Ames
We're loved.
- [231:48]
Megyn Kelly
We're loved. We did come away from that feeling very loved. It was so sophisticated. You know, the woman calling, pretending to be Diane, the lawyer, the court, you know, multiple people involved. Did you ever figure out how you were chosen for this?
- [232:09]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
No, I. I really didn't know. I have no idea. But then again, with these scams, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten one of these phone calls that says, grandma, I'm in trouble. I need help.
- [232:34]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, really?
- [232:36]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
Yes. And it's more fun because now I just say, is your mother proud of what you're doing? And they always hang up on me.
- [232:49]
Dr. Leonard Sax
So for those out there, it's Barnstable. If they try to do it again, it's not Barnstable.
- [232:57]
Megyn Kelly
So Di and Brad are safe. Few. No one has handed over any money, thank God, and Steve has saved the day. Now Doug and I decide to have a little fun with our con man who does not yet know he's been busted. I called him up with Doug taping the conversation, and what happened next was six minutes of going, that's next.
- [233:25]
Doug Brunt
You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft.
- [233:30]
Megyn Kelly
I thought it was safe.
- [233:31]
Doug Brunt
If that happens, LifeLock gives you a US based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish. Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims. Your agent handles it all. In fact, we're so confident restoration is guaranteed for your money back. Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com Pandora terms apply.
- [233:55]
Megyn Kelly
The GLP1 pill you've been waiting for is now on ROE. Yep, it's finally here with the same
- [234:01]
Sarah Edmondson
clinically proven ingredient now in a pill.
- [234:04]
Megyn Kelly
And now on RO. It's the first FDA approved GLP1 pill for weight loss at the lowest price available. That's one daily GLP1 pill for big results now on RO. Go to RO. Listen to see if you qualify RX only go to RO CO Safety for serious side effects and boxed warning associated with GLP1s. Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show. All right, I want to take you through my phone call with the scammer now, but to help me walk you through it, I brought in my pal Bill Stanton. He's former nypd, a private investigator, and a security expert who helps us out sometimes on our own security from time to time. Watch this. So I'm just going to play the call. Okay, that I did with this guy once we were finally onto this, and I would love if we could analyze it as we go. All right? And I can. I can pause it if necessary.
- [234:58]
Security Expert
Beautiful.
- [234:59]
Megyn Kelly
Here we go.
- [235:11]
Bill Stanton
This is Paul.
- [235:12]
Megyn Kelly
Paul, hey, it's Megyn Kelly. So I haven't received the bitcoin verification yet. I was using my real name. He knew who I was, and I had mentioned that I was a public figure. Didn't stop him one bit.
- [235:25]
Security Expert
Didn't bat an eye.
- [235:26]
Megyn Kelly
Not surprised at that or are you?
- [235:28]
Security Expert
Well, my guess is he's not from this country. He may be out of the country.
- [235:34]
Megyn Kelly
What? He sounds American.
- [235:35]
Security Expert
He does sound American, but I don't know that he fully knew the impact of Megyn Kelly or what was coming.
- [235:40]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, he was about to be humiliated.
- [235:42]
Security Expert
Exactly.
- [235:43]
Bill Stanton
From point source.
- [235:44]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Is that. Is that bitcoin? Whatever that is. Is that bitcoin?
- [235:49]
Bill Stanton
Yes.
- [235:49]
Megyn Kelly
It hasn't. It hasn't come through.
- [235:51]
Bill Stanton
Have you any verification from them at all?
- [235:54]
Megyn Kelly
No. Is there another way of doing this? Because I'm worried about them sitting there all day.
- [236:00]
Bill Stanton
Okay, well, did you check your text messages? Is it.
- [236:04]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [236:05]
Bill Stanton
Does it still say awaiting review?
- [236:07]
Megyn Kelly
Yep. There's nothing. Another one didn't come in. So that's the last I have at this point. He's walking me through exactly how to get him the bitcoin. I mean, he's an expert.
- [236:16]
Security Expert
As I, as I was listening to this on the way down here. What your listeners are listening to is a master class in three level chess. It is a mind game that's going on and you handle it phenomenally. Okay, let's go.
- [236:33]
Bill Stanton
Where are you? Are you located at the machine?
- [236:36]
Megyn Kelly
I haven't gone down there yet because I don't have the. The verification. Don't I need the verification before I can send anything?
- [236:42]
Bill Stanton
You're gonna have to get on the chat and contact them because it could be that maybe the, the pictures wasn't. Were not legible or something like that. But if you Go on the Coinsource.net you can actually get on the chat with them and, you know, ask them what's, you know, what's the status of your verification?
- [237:01]
Megyn Kelly
All Right. I mean, like, I'm worried about them sitting there all day. Is there any other way of doing this?
- [237:07]
Bill Stanton
I did contact the court and explain to them about, you know, the shutdown there, and they were, you know, it's unconstitutional to keep them there. So we've got enough time to get them out. We just have to try to pay the bails to get them out.
- [237:22]
Megyn Kelly
Like, how are they. Is there any way of, like, lowering the bail or getting them out? Just, like, for now.
- [237:29]
Security Expert
I love what you're doing here because I call it doing the Colombo. You're playing. You're playing stupid, but you're doing it brilliantly.
- [237:36]
Megyn Kelly
Because at this point. I know.
- [237:37]
Security Expert
Yeah. Yes, yes. And you're. You're just slow, slowly reeling him in, and he doesn't realize. He thinks he's the predator.
- [237:43]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [237:44]
Security Expert
Meanwhile, you're putting your jaws around him.
- [237:46]
Megyn Kelly
That's exactly right. He still thinks he's got, like. How serious are these charges?
- [237:50]
Bill Stanton
Well, they're very serious. I mean, it's a very serious charge. If there were not for the blood test, we probably, you know, be looking at some jail time.
- [238:02]
Megyn Kelly
Did she take one already?
- [238:04]
Bill Stanton
Yeah, I already received. Requested it. We're just waiting for the result. You know, I'm pretty sure it's going to come back below the levels because that's what she, you know, she. She promised me that she was not drinking.
- [238:14]
Megyn Kelly
No, there is zero chance that she was drinking. Zero. So this is one of the weird risks he took where he based this whole alleged crime on Diane drunk driving. And this is an area in which he didn't do his homework, because she and Brad don't drink. They just don't drink. They. It's not their thing. And he. So he took a shot at it. And then everybody from Jackie to Doug to me, we were all like, they don't drink. Right? What do you mean? Like, he kind of. But he was like, yeah, you know, I believe her. That's why I'm gonna mandate the blood test.
- [238:48]
Security Expert
Well, this character is a combination fortune teller, con man, and he's reading everything right. So he has maybe done dozens, if not hundreds of these calls before. So just like a few fortune teller, he's feeling it out, and he needs to make some leaps in order to advance to get to endgame. And like a telemarketer, he has heard so many different responses, and he knows where to put, like, cut and paste. What type of answer?
- [239:16]
Megyn Kelly
Yes. Yes.
- [239:16]
Security Expert
And that's what you are defeating here. And we'll listen as we go on as he stumbles like a mental computer glitch. You'll hear it as you get him.
- [239:26]
Megyn Kelly
He's so clever because he doesn't get thrown at all by. She doesn't drink. He's like, I'm on your side. I agree. She wasn't drunk. That's why I'm mandating blood tests.
- [239:34]
Security Expert
Right.
- [239:35]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, that's smooth. Once we pay the bail, how long until they can get out?
- [239:40]
Bill Stanton
It takes about 45 minutes to an hour for them to be released.
- [239:44]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, and where. Like, how do we get them?
- [239:51]
Bill Stanton
Are you going to be coming down to pick them up?
- [239:53]
Megyn Kelly
We're not, but we'll find somebody there. Like, they have a friend there who we looped in, and he was going to try to help, but I know that didn't work. But he's there so he can get them. Okay?
- [240:06]
Bill Stanton
Well, yeah. I mean, once you guys pay the bill, you can have, you know, have them drive down and they can pick them up.
- [240:12]
Megyn Kelly
He didn't answer right.
- [240:13]
Security Expert
Well, you see, the longer you're talking, the more it's giving him a chance to formulate some bullshit on what to say back to you.
- [240:20]
Megyn Kelly
He doesn't know the address of the courthouse. And.
- [240:23]
Security Expert
And you are like a cat blocking him off, like a mouse trying to get away. And you keep putting a paw down. Then he runs the other way. Yeah, and then you put a paw down here.
- [240:33]
Megyn Kelly
He tried to get out of Dodge, and I'm like, I need the address of the jail so I can pick them up. And he's wondering what to say.
- [240:40]
Bill Stanton
Let me give you the address. Just a. It's 7:25 Bedford.
- [240:58]
Megyn Kelly
7:20. All right, let me write this down. Wait, what's. And what's the city? Bedford. Okay, and what's the city?
- [241:12]
Bill Stanton
Stanford.
- [241:15]
Megyn Kelly
Stanford, Connecticut.
- [241:17]
Bill Stanton
Correct.
- [241:19]
Megyn Kelly
Paul. They're. They're in Cape Cod.
- [241:27]
Bill Stanton
You're absolutely right. I'm really sorry. I was confused. I have another case that's in Stanford. It's just been a very long day for me.
- [241:35]
Security Expert
That was the mental glitch. And this guy is, as I said, dozens, if not hundreds of calls before. And notice how he maintains his calm. Right? But there's these big pools.
- [241:47]
Megyn Kelly
He doesn't hang up right there.
- [241:48]
Security Expert
Doesn't hang up because he's invested in you. You are money on the hoof to him right now. He may have 10 other calls in process lined up, but right now all his focus is to get the money out of you. And every second is a cost benefit analysis. You know, Can I still reel this one into the Bowl.
- [242:07]
Megyn Kelly
Yes. Right. And I think he was either confused, but because he had another potential fish in Stanford, Connecticut, or it was because Stanford, or it was because Doug was in Connecticut that day. That was a year that we were commuting our two boys to Connecticut, and our daughter was still going to school in New York. So we would split up during the days.
- [242:27]
Security Expert
Right.
- [242:27]
Megyn Kelly
And when he spoke with Doug, I think Doug said, I'm in Connecticut. So he got confused. There were too many cities, too many places.
- [242:34]
Security Expert
Too many balls. Exactly.
- [242:36]
Megyn Kelly
Exactly. So where. Where are they?
- [242:39]
Bill Stanton
I gave you. I gave you the address earlier. It's in Barnstable. Gave it to your husband.
- [242:46]
Megyn Kelly
Meanwhile, actual Cape Codders call it Barnstable. And he's claiming that he's from there. Yeah.
- [242:53]
Security Expert
Right.
- [242:53]
Megyn Kelly
They don't say Barnstable.
- [242:55]
Security Expert
He's getting burned on multiple areas.
- [242:57]
Megyn Kelly
He fell down a little on the job.
- [243:00]
Bill Stanton
Just a second. Let me see if she's still there, because it could even move. Yeah, it's 3195 Main Street.
- [243:15]
Megyn Kelly
3195 Main Street.
- [243:19]
Bill Stanton
She's still there.
- [243:20]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, Main Main Street. And then so what. What's that town?
- [243:25]
Bill Stanton
Barnstable.
- [243:27]
Megyn Kelly
Barnstable. Okay. And where are you?
- [243:34]
Bill Stanton
I'm. Yeah, I'm in Barnstable, but I'm not currently here. I'm in Ohio handling some family business, and I'm gonna be back here on Monday.
- [243:44]
Megyn Kelly
So why he has to not be in Barnstable? Because he can't receive the money in cash by our friend who's ready to deliver cash to his. His face.
- [243:54]
Security Expert
Right.
- [243:54]
Megyn Kelly
He's got to be someplace else so that we have to wire it Bitcoin.
- [243:58]
Security Expert
Right. Any. Any ads, like, family business, to prey upon, you know, your goodwill and to humanize him. Right? Like, oh, this guy's a regular guy. It's not a confidence man. This is legit.
- [244:11]
Megyn Kelly
You can hear him thinking. Like, you can hear the wheels turning. Yes.
- [244:14]
Security Expert
You could hear it grinding. Right, right. And you just keep throwing monkey wrench after monkey wrench.
- [244:18]
Megyn Kelly
It's cringe. Just ask questions, huh? Right. Like, that can be harder than even, like, confronting with facts.
- [244:23]
Security Expert
Exactly. Exactly.
- [244:24]
Megyn Kelly
Are you sole practitioner or what are you?
- [244:27]
Bill Stanton
I'm a public defendant. I work for the State Bar here
- [244:32]
Megyn Kelly
in Massachusetts. Okay. Where'd you. Where'd you go to law school? I'm a lawyer, too.
- [244:37]
Bill Stanton
I went to school in New York, John J. Law.
- [244:40]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, really? What year did you graduate?
- [244:46]
Bill Stanton
Sorry. 70. 73.
- [244:49]
Megyn Kelly
You graduated law school in 73? You don't sound that old.
- [244:54]
Bill Stanton
Oh, yeah, I am old.
- [244:56]
Megyn Kelly
Literally, I graduate law school in 95. 22 years older than I. Yeah.
- [245:01]
Security Expert
I'm 87 and a half years old.
- [245:03]
Megyn Kelly
Seriously. I mean, at that point, that would have made him in his mid-70s. He does not sound like he's in his mid-70s.
- [245:08]
Security Expert
And he's a public defender in his mid-70s.
- [245:10]
Megyn Kelly
So why did he say that? Why did he say he was a 73?
- [245:13]
Security Expert
Because in my opinion, you have his mind racing so much. Right. That was the first number that flew out of his mind.
- [245:21]
Megyn Kelly
So I think it's because he knew, like, he was worried I might have gone to John Jay, and he was like, oh, that's funny anywhere. I don't know how old she is.
- [245:30]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Right, right.
- [245:31]
Megyn Kelly
You know, because these are small law schools.
- [245:33]
Security Expert
Right, right. Like, I mean, 73. Geez. Jesus.
- [245:36]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, he went big. He went too. He had no idea, though. He didn't know how old I was. That's what I think. So the other thing is, you know, $17,000 is a lot of money. And, like, what if I don't get it back?
- [245:52]
Bill Stanton
What do you mean? You're supposed to get it back once the case is closed or dismissed.
- [245:57]
Megyn Kelly
Once it's closed or dismissed.
- [245:59]
Bill Stanton
Correct.
- [246:02]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, I don't. I gotta. I gotta be honest with you. Like, I'm not that close with Diane. I'm not. I. I'm not sure.
- [246:10]
Bill Stanton
No problem.
- [246:13]
Megyn Kelly
You know, it's a lot of money. That was it.
- [246:18]
Security Expert
You know, on to the next call, on to the next victim.
- [246:21]
Megyn Kelly
You say you don't think I hurt his feelings? You think he was just like, cut my losses back?
- [246:24]
Security Expert
I cut my. Cut my losses.
- [246:25]
Megyn Kelly
I kind of hoped I heard him a little, you know, like, aha, I got you.
- [246:28]
Security Expert
You didn't even. He didn't miss a step. Right. You became too much of an impediment to him, and it's on to the easier fish. Think about a predator. Wolves go after the weakest sheep, the slowest, the oldest, the ones most vulnerable. And just to make a point, while we're laughing here, this is done in various machinations every day. Elderly women who are lonely. You know, the lonely hearts club I've had, you know, through friends and family. I'd say about a baker's dozen cases where women in their 60s and 70s have sold their homes, have taken loans, sent that money, knowing them, only a week. Loneliness is a son of a bitch. Having an open heart is a son of a bitch in this case. So it's a combination of having street smart and cyber sense when these things come in. There's a sense of Urgency and you want to take care of your loved one. And they'll come up with a number. And what they look at is your social media. We've all been guilty of it. Some more than others. Where we put everything on the effing Internet, you know, and think about pictures in front of your house. I could spot your address. I'm not saying no.
- [247:40]
Megyn Kelly
I never do that.
- [247:40]
Security Expert
I know that. But so many of us do, right? So many tells the type of car. So for the predator, the cyber predator, they're gathering, whether it's one person or a whole network of people, they'll gather that intel and like. Well, only my family would know that.
- [247:58]
Megyn Kelly
Well, let's talk about that in this case because that's one of the weirdnesses. Jackie, Doug's 87 year old mother is not on social media, right. Nor is Diane, nor is Brad. Neither one of them. So this guy knew clearly he was targeting an elderly woman, right? And he at least knew her daughter's name because he had a woman call pretending to be her and said mom, it's die.
- [248:20]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Right.
- [248:21]
Megyn Kelly
So like how I, I, I don't even know how you figure that out.
- [248:24]
Security Expert
Could they have flipped it? Could she have touted your sister in law? Correct?
- [248:29]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [248:29]
Security Expert
Could she have had her mother, you know, online through social media?
- [248:35]
Megyn Kelly
No. At moms 85th, she's not even out. She's not online at all?
- [248:38]
Security Expert
No. Your sister in law isn't?
- [248:39]
Megyn Kelly
No.
- [248:40]
Security Expert
Oh, well, you know what then it may be closer to home than we know. You know, most crimes, like God forbid anything would ever happen to this home, like whether it be a burglary, vandalism, it's not from someone across the country. It's the landscaper's cousin. It's someone you know, one or twice removed. Those people you got, I'll bet him. Don't worry, I'll bet him.
- [249:06]
Megyn Kelly
Cause that's what's really disturbing, right? They knew some facts about Jackie, just enough about Diane to think it's legit. They knew Diane was in Cape Cod. So I mean that's another thing, right? That not online.
- [249:18]
Security Expert
Right.
- [249:19]
Megyn Kelly
So it's actually I have no idea. But you're right, maybe it's somebody who somehow knew the family.
- [249:23]
Security Expert
Well, that's the only way it's either, you know, one or two people removed or the Internet, it's been my experience. Or someone may have reached out. You know, we don't know what we don't know. We don't know if your sister in law had reached out on some service
- [249:40]
Megyn Kelly
or if they called Jackie earlier under a different pretense to do info gathering.
- [249:45]
Security Expert
And they gather and then it's just in the conveyor belt. When that time comes up, okay, we have all this information, they're good to go, they're in the hopper.
- [249:52]
Dr. Leonard Sax
Let's go.
- [249:53]
Megyn Kelly
That's another good warning that if somebody calls, and I think most younger people, people know this, but especially for our older listeners, if somebody calls looking for information, asking personal information about your family members names, anything that obviously people know
- [250:09]
Security Expert
security number, they'll ask everything. You know, these surveys and so like I'll, I'll entertain some of these calls just to see like, you know, where is this going to go? And they want everything. I go, yeah, Nya yeah. N business, you know, call the wrong guy.
- [250:24]
Megyn Kelly
Well, I, I, I guess that's true. He must have gotten it from her or. Because you said maybe he's out of the country. I just feel like he was an American. But that doesn't mean he wasn't sitting there in India making these calls. I don't know if he was close to them or not, but that I hadn't considered that he had already done research potentially on Jackie because she wasn't that savvy to this prior to this whole event.
- [250:46]
Nippy Ames
Yes.
- [250:46]
Megyn Kelly
All right, let's speak about the, how elaborate this was. You know, there was a article, I think it was the Forbes business columnist recently who did this whole article about how she'd been defrauded out of $85,000 cash. She put it in a shoebox over just the course of eight hours. This guy convinced her to do it. And this is a financial columnist, so, you know, relatively sophisticated, but gave up the dough. And he too had multiple people working with him on the fraud. This guy I think had at least two others. He had a fake courthouse number. He had hold music that he told us.
- [251:21]
Security Expert
Well, that tells me it's more than a one man band. Like, let's just like as a, as a, as a sort of an example is this show. You're at the top of the masthead, but there's a whole infrastructure behind that beautiful face. What's going on. You bring your game, but you have your people, your producers, your bookers, your everything. And to the View, it, it seems so seamless, but there's a lot to make it happen. Same things with these confidence people. They're gathering information instead of producers. They may have researchers gathering backstory instead of celebrities or politicians. They're gathering it on everyday people. They could do an easy, you know, journeyman's financial assessment, you know, is that house paid for? Do they. How many. What's the type of cause do they have? Do they have that description, discretionary cash? Or are they alone? Are they desperate enough? Do they have family? These are all the stress points, if you will, that these confidence men that these teams will look at. And they use psychology, they listen. It happened to me, and I'm in the business. I was on my. In a different form. I'm on my computer. My computer got hacked. And I was so desperate, I didn't want them getting my shit.
- [252:34]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [252:34]
Security Expert
So I'm on it. And a little voice. I called up Andy, the guy we use, you know, that's helped you in the past. And Andy's like, discontinue right now. I'm like, but I'm gonna lose my. He goes, I'm fucking telling you, get off. And I was that old granny.
- [252:51]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, right.
- [252:52]
Security Expert
About to give away all my shit.
- [252:54]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, it's terrifying.
- [252:54]
Security Expert
So there is no socioeconomic intelligence quotient that makes you immune. It's been my experience sometimes the smarter you, you are, then, you know, you're so confident in who you are. Oh, this would never happen to me. I would be able to disseminate the bs.
- [253:10]
Megyn Kelly
Yes.
- [253:10]
Security Expert
And they hit that pay button sooner than someone from the street.
- [253:13]
Megyn Kelly
Well, we love the piece of the story that ultimately it was the Cape Cod wailing guy who was like, I'm going by their house. I don't know what these people are saying. And he. He figured it out. He's the hero of the story.
- [253:27]
Security Expert
10 for that.
- [253:28]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, so what about the targeting of the elder elderly? Because that does seem to be a theme in a lot of these.
- [253:33]
Security Expert
Yes, yes. What they'll do again, they go on people's nature or that they could lose their home.
- [253:40]
Megyn Kelly
How do they find out who's elderly and how to call them? Like, do they get a sponsorship from the AARP or one of those magazines? Not to bash the arp, but I'm just saying, like, is there a way of getting people's numbers who are old?
- [253:53]
Security Expert
Yeah. Well, you can go. There are services where you can get demographics of people. So, like, my house was up for sale. Like, you mass exodus out of New York, and I had all these people, like, how the f. Do you know? How do you have my cell number? Number one. Right. And how do you know my house is for sale? Oh, we'll pay cash. Oh, can I show your house? Because there are services that you pay into and you get some certain demographics. So for me, I'm sorry, selling my house. There are elderly groups. If she ever signed on to any AARP or some type of association, those lots of, you know, the intelligence gathering of who you are, what you are, what demographic you are. The same way advertisers buy that voters like the campaign. Yes.
- [254:42]
Megyn Kelly
The campaigns are getting all that information right now.
- [254:44]
Security Expert
Same way, you know, certain demographics want that information for sale. They get it for marks to mark
- [254:51]
Megyn Kelly
you as a victim. They can find out about us.
- [254:53]
Security Expert
And it's scary. And it's the basic psychology. You see, when we're in our home, you're an older elderly lady, you may be widowed, you're all alone. And your primary thing is to go to the market to get that sale and come home. You were hit out of the blue. You're hit out of the blue with a member of your family that's in distress. And you could hit that button and you're going to be walked through it to get them out of trouble. That's what you live for. And they know that.
- [255:20]
Megyn Kelly
There are so many people who are in this exact position right now. And it's like, I think my audience is in generally, in general, they're a lot younger than 87. So I urge everybody, speak to your parent, speak to your great aunt, speak to anybody who's in this age group, and speak to your friends, too, because it's not just the elderly. And let them know that this is
- [255:39]
Security Expert
out there, this kind of thing, whether it's this particular one, whether it's. They hack into your computer, whether you're on one of those dating sites, they go to the basic emotion and need and insecurity of people and just realize, take that breath, take a step back. Because nothing is. Unless you're in a car crash where you have to hit that brake. You know, hit the brake in your mind, hit that cyber break, hit that telephone break and ask questions and say, give me a number. Let me get back to you. It can wait 10 minutes. And that could save you a whole bunch of money, a whole bunch of.
- [256:13]
Megyn Kelly
And to. I want will say in that fraud that I mentioned that the business reporter wrote up about, that happened to her and in this attempted fraud of us, one of the things that she didn't do and that we didn't do and should have done was to do an independent Google search of the number of the courthouse or in her case, I don't remember that. It was like that. She said, they said she was getting investigated by the federal government, but whoever they say is the third party.
- [256:40]
Jackie (Doug's mother)
Right.
- [256:41]
Megyn Kelly
Just hang up and do a Google search. Don't call their number. Call you find out the number. You make an independent call to see if this is real and get the fraudster's number. So you can then call me and
- [256:51]
Security Expert
go one step further because there are apps. I can call you and it looks like it's coming from Doug's number. Yeah, that technology exists out there. That's rudimentary. Yes. I can call you right now. And it would ring Doug's number and you would answer, whoa. So there are different levels to this.
- [257:10]
Megyn Kelly
And you know, but I'm dialing out. I mean, like that's, that's the empowerment is if you are dialing out on
- [257:17]
Security Expert
your phone, then you take the number.
- [257:19]
Megyn Kelly
Courthouse, right? Right.
- [257:20]
Security Expert
Like, I had Amazon. I had an Amazon scam and it was online. It came over a text, right? You know, did you charge this on Amazon? Click here. Fuck that. I got on the phone with Amazon direct, you know, and I'm like, is this what you do? They go, absolutely not. Oh, they go, I go, is this a thing? They go, that's a thing.
- [257:42]
Megyn Kelly
Don't you get? I get attempted frauds at me every day via email.
- [257:45]
Security Expert
Email.
- [257:47]
Megyn Kelly
I usually just forward them to Abby and she deals with it or like the scams. And she puts these blockers on my phone, spam it. But it's amazing because most people don't have an Abby. And most people haven't had this happen to them. And they're not living on guard. They're actually still trusting, loving people, unlike us cynical bastards. And even as cynical as we are, we always got taken in, let me tell you.
- [258:11]
Security Expert
Listen, essentially, we're good people. We care about people. But f that, like, I had a lady. I was in midtown. This was a number of years ago, middle aged, well dressed woman. And she hit me with the gasoline on my car. And I was fascinated that this woman was well dressed, well spoken, and she's hitting me up. I said, I'll walk you to your car right now. Oh, I really. And then she, she just walked away. So they prey, you know, upon your good nature. And again, you know, many people don't haven't been raised from the streets, you know, but it's incumbent to have those street smarts.
- [258:50]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [258:51]
Security Expert
And bad guys don't necessarily dress up like in the old Batman bad guy T shirt.
- [258:56]
Megyn Kelly
No.
- [258:57]
Security Expert
Now it's on the Internet and the cyber world is a whole nother animal. And just remember, always press the brakes and question, question, question.
- [259:04]
Megyn Kelly
You're not surprised the cops weren't interested. That's how they get away with it, though.
- [259:09]
Security Expert
It's. It's low level. It's low on their priority list. You know, many police departments aren't sophisticated in tracking this down. It's more an FBI issue.
- [259:19]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, actually, and this crossed state lines.
- [259:21]
Security Expert
Right. You know, that's why it's more of an FBI issue. And we know, you know, they have their own problems.
- [259:27]
Megyn Kelly
I had all my evidence. I had his number. I had the court number.
- [259:32]
Security Expert
You are turning out. This is. This was actually your first undercover. We've done another undercover.
- [259:37]
Megyn Kelly
We've done an undercover.
- [259:38]
Security Expert
Since you are, you're proving to be quite. You know. I thought my initials were B.S. you're getting very good at this, Megyn Kelly. You're getting a little bit too good.
- [259:46]
Megyn Kelly
I do love, I mean, like the elderly. I love my Matlock. I love my Jessica for Murder she Wrote. Yeah. I aspire to great things. Bill Stanton. Thank you.
- [259:55]
Security Expert
10 4. Thank you for having me.
- [259:56]
Megyn Kelly
Thanks to my family, Doug, Di and Brad, my mother in law, Jackie. Thanks to Steve for helping us bring this story to you. I mean, can you believe this? Like, isn't that a nuts story? It's cray cray. And honestly, Doug and I have had so many conversations about it. I remember we had dinner with all these friends. It was still the COVID lockdowns. And we sneaked a dinner, not, sorry to tell you, at our apartment because crazy Andrew Cuomo still trying to tell us we weren't allowed to do that kind of thing. And we told our friends the story that night. And everyone was riveted, right? Because no one could believe this crap. And I know what you're thinking. As soon as you hear crypto, you're like, wait a minute. And we too were like, what? But it was just the COVID weirdness. The fact that we had spoken with the court, we thought ourselves, and the fact that we hadn't yet even thought to question Jackie's telling us she had spoken with Diane herself and that she was really in trouble. Like, that didn't even enter our minds, that that piece of the story might not be true. So anyway, words of caution in this story for everyone. And honestly, you need to know this, right? Because what if this happened to your mom or you? And now you'll know. Like, if we hadn't told this story, you might not know. Maybe you would be hoodwinked. I don't know. It can happen. Trust me. So we decided to tell you the story, even though we knew you might mock us a little because we want to help others. And we learned a lot too ourselves. I think all of us did. Hope all of you learned something from today's show and from Fraud week all week. Because sadly, there are fraudsters out there working hard every day to steal your money or something precious. And most of these never see the light of day. Right? They just happen privately because people are too embarrassed to talk about it or scared. Yeah, they're humiliated and I get it. But there's no reason to be humiliated. Like, if you get defrauded by one of these losers or almost defraud in our case, what does it say about you? It says you believe in human nature, you believe in others. You probably have a kind heart. You're probably a trusting soul. Those are not bad things, right? But slightly jaded. Trusting soul, but slightly jaded. I think that's what we're going for. So that's why we shared and that's why we hope everybody listens and shares and talks about these kinds of things more and more so we can help each other.
- [262:23]
Sarah Edmondson
All right.
- [262:23]
Megyn Kelly
I love to hear from all of you. Do you have a fraud story? Have you been inspired or helped by our Fraud Week week? Email me at megan m e g y nagyankelly.com I'll definitely be reading. We do read the emails. I see them every week and I love going through them. I read them on Mondays. We get them collected from the weekday before. And there's nothing quite like hearing from all of you. So would love for you to email me. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda and no fear. Jackpot for the Lucky Lance Snow Queen herself.
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Sarah Edmondson
Hey, who's playing my game?
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Megyn Kelly
The Queen herself. Tip. I know you're not new here. You're going to need a lot more gold coins. No.
- [263:11]
Sarah Edmondson
I declare myself the Lucky Land Snow Queen. Yeah, right.
- [263:14]
Megyn Kelly
Think you can take down the Lucky Land Queen? Not on my watch.
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Sarah Edmondson
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Megyn Kelly
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Sarah Edmondson
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Megyn Kelly
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Dr. Leonard Sax
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Megyn Kelly
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Sarah Edmondson
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Security Expert
Make it quick, young man.
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Megyn Kelly
Aw.
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Sarah Edmondson
See, Pop Pop trusts you.
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Nippy Ames
I think we should call a doctor.
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Dr. Leonard Sax
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Nippy Ames
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Dr. Leonard Sax
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