← The Megyn Kelly Show
The Megyn Kelly Show
Major Revelations in Savannah Guthrie's First Interview, and Possible Gang Connection to Sheridan Gorman Murder, with Gov. Rod Blagojevich | Ep. 1282
02:20:37
Megyn Kelly is joined by James Hamilton, Eric O'Neill, Pat Brosnan, and Randy Sutton, security and law enforcement experts, to discuss the bombshell information in Savannah Guthrie's first long-form interview about the disappearance of her mother Nancy, how the interview by Hoda Kotb was conducted with a lack of follow-up questions, the revelations that the back door was "propped open" rather than just unlocked, Savannah making it clear she believes her mom was kidnapped, why she believes some of the ransom notes are real, questions about why no ransom payment was made, Ashleigh Banfield’s new reporting that the only blood found inside the home was near the door, comments Savannah made about what happened in the bedroom, new details about the Nancy Guthrie ransom notes, evidence for why they should or shouldn't have been taken more seriously, Savannah’s comments about Sheriff Nanos and the investigation, serious questions about how he's handling the case, and more. Then former Gov....
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- [00:00]
Megyn Kelly
Americans United for the Separation of Church and State invites you to the Summit for Religious Freedom in Washington, D.C. from April 25th to 27th at SRF. Everyone from organizers to faith leaders take on the growing threats of Christian nationalism in this country. This is a movement that invites collaboration across the entire spectrum of religious belief and non belief with the goal of strengthening our democracy. Register to attend in person or virtually@thesrf.org
- [00:31]
Randy Sutton
the wrongs we must right, the fights we must win. The future we must secure together for our nation.
- [00:43]
Pat Brosnan
This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us.
- [00:51]
Rod Blagojevich
We are Marines.
- [00:53]
Randy Sutton
We were made for this.
- [01:00]
Megyn Kelly
Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show. I should have done this yesterday, but I'm gonna do it today. Happy birthday, Steve Krakauer. It was his birthday. We forgot to say it on the air. But we love him. He's our executive producer. He's been with us since the beginning of the show and doesn't get nearly enough credit for all the hard work and amazing, amazing contributions he makes to not just the show but the entire company. You know, MK Media and all of our programs there and MK True Crime and all of it. So Steve, we love you. Happy birthday. Okay, today, wow, wow. Unbelievable news breaking. We've first of all got more on our investigation into the murder of 18 year old college student Sheridan Gorman in Chicago. This poor, poor girl. Blago's gonna be here. Yes. Former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich, friend of the show on why he does not think we're getting the full story about the suspected killer, Venezuela illegal immigrant Jose Medina. Wait until you hear what he has to say. Obviously he knows Illinois and he's got thoughts on how they're misleading us in his estimation. But we begin with the latest on Nancy Guthrie and what, what an update we have. The 84 year old mother of NBC anchor Savannah Guthrie has not been seen since January 31st. Authorities believe she was forcibly abducted in the early hours overnight Saturday night, January 31st into Sunday, February 1st. This was out of her Tucson, Arizona home, one hour away from the Mexican border. This morning we heard for the first time from Savannah at length in an interview sitting down with Hoda Kotb on the Today show for her first interview since the kidnapping. Here she is describing the moment she learned her mother, Nancy was missing.
- [02:58]
Savannah Guthrie
And my sister called me and I said, is everything okay? And she said, no. She said, mom's missing. And I said, what?
- [03:09]
James Hamilton
Yeah, what are you talking about?
- [03:13]
Savannah Guthrie
She said, she's gone. And we, she was in a panic. I was in a panic. I'm like, Call 91 1. She's like, I did. We've called them. They're here. And we thought that she must have had like some kind of medical episode in the night and that somehow, you know, the paramedics had come because the back doors were propped open, you know, and that didn't make any sense. We thought maybe they came and there was a stretcher and they took her out the back. But her phone was there and her purse was there and all her things and it just didn't make any sense. So, you know, Annie and Tommy had already called all the hospitals. But then I'm like, I'm gonna call the hospital. So then I started calling the hospitals and the police were there and talking to her at the the same time. And it was just chaos and disbelief.
- [04:15]
Megyn Kelly
There is so much more to get to, including real information about the investigation that was divulged, which I have in a few sound bites. We're going to play for you. We want to bring in our experts. James Hamilton is a former FBI Supervisory Special Agent and creator of the FBI's Close Protection School which is a specialized training program designed for agents to protect high, low level individuals or officials. Eric o' Neal is a former FBI counterintelligence operative and author of the book Spies, Lies and Cybercrime. He helped catch one of the most notorious spies in US history. And Randy Sutton is a 34 year law enforcement veteran and founder of the Wounded Blue. If you are looking to make smarter choices for your health this year, consider Riverbend Ranch. Their steaks are not only delicious, they also contain real high quality protein that helps fuel your body. Beef is a complete protein and contains all nine essential amino acids your body needs to function. It also keeps you fuller for longer reducing cravings and snacking. But here's the key. Not all beef is created equal. The quality of the beef depends entirely on how it's raised and where it comes from. That's where Riverbend Ranch stands apart. For more than 35 years, Riverbend Ranch has been building an elite Black Angus herd, carefully selecting cattle for exceptional flavor and tenderness. All Riverbend Ranch cattle are born and raised right here in the usa. They never use growth hormones or antibiotics and the beef is processed at the ranch in their award winning USDA inspected facility. No shortcuts, no middlemen. Just incredible, healthy and flavorful beef shipped directly to your home. Order today@riverbendranch.com and use the promo code Megan for 20 bucks off your first order. Guys, welcome back. A stunning update just to hear Savannah on camera speaking one on one with Hoda and telling some of what she knows about this crime. So there was part one where she revealed the moment where she found out from her sister Annie that their mom was missing. And Annie and Tomas, they call him Tommy. We learned it from this interview, showed up to the mother's house, saw that the phone was there, the purse was there, all of her things, said Savannah, but the mother was not. And she talked about calling the hospitals in disbelief and not really understanding. Then she went on. Hold on. She went on to talk about how there was no way her mother could have wandered off. And she added new details from there. Take a listen here to SOT2.
- [06:51]
Savannah Guthrie
She can't wander off. My mom, her. She was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to. On a good day, she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days not. So there was no wander off. And the doors were propped open. Yeah. And there was blood on the front doorstep. And the ring camera had been yanked off. Yeah. And so we were saying this is. Do something. This is not. Okay. Yeah. This isn't. Something is very wrong here.
- [07:32]
Megyn Kelly
So there you have new information which we had not heard before, James, about the door, the back door being propped open. Propped open, she said. Now, she mentioned the blood on the doorstep that we knew. And we've got an update on the blood, too, that we'll get to in a minute. But that was an interesting detail, that the back door was open. And it was propped open. And really kind of putting to rest once and for all the idea that Nancy Guthrie walked out of there on her own. We did not know about the terrible, painful back where on a good day, she could walk to the mailbox. Your thoughts on what we've heard so far?
- [08:11]
James Hamilton
Yeah. Good to see you again. The purse and the phone being there are. I think. I feel like that's new to me. Maybe I knew the phone was there, but I didn't know the purse. So of course, it. It's obviously tragic to watch her go through that. I'm. I think I have more questions now than before. And one of my biggest questions is, why are we messing around with the front door? Why is there blood on the front door? If we have a propped open back door, why aren't we Just going out that way. So I. More questions now than I had before.
- [08:43]
Megyn Kelly
Yes. Why would the door be propped open? Eric, I agree. I don't understand prop door and we don't. I'm just going to take a moment and give a little editorial of my own on this from a journalistic perspective. You don't have to comment on this. But I, with respect, I have to say I, I think Hoda Kotb fell down on the job and I don't think she was the woman for the interview. They put her out there because they use this as a promotional vehicle. The two are friends. Look, we're a big. We're a big family. Look at them relating. They KE her mic up for her empathetic sounds and her active listening, which was actually a major distraction and very odd in its in the choice because normally the, the network would turn down Hoda's mic during Savannah's very compelling answers, especially in an interview this big. The reason they left Hoda's mic open is because I'm telling you, NBC had an agenda here which was to show you one big happy family. Look how empathetic she is. It was an inappropriate choice journalistically because it served as only a distraction. This interview was not about Hoda. It was about Savannah. And I'm sorry, but Hoda kept wiping away tears that weren't there either. This was acting on Hoda Cockbies park. And it was a distraction and an unnecessary one. But my real complaint about the way that Hoda handled this was there were no follow ups. None. And therefore it was not journalistically sound. She did not ask very basic questions like what do you mean propped open? That's it. Not. I'm not talking about. You go for the jugular. You treat her like she's a hostile witness. I mean, very basic reportorial ABCs. What does propped open mean? And. And the sins got worse as the interview went along. I objected to how it was handled. I'm. I'm just being honest. I'm not trying to be petty. I'm trying to be honest about what I saw there and what should have happened in an interview this big. But. Okay, Eric, we didn't get a follow up on what propped open means nor on what the family believes happened there because we now know that there's blood on the front steps, front stoop, or for. Or porch. I'm going to play Ashley Banfield's reporting in a minute, but Ashley's now reporting that there were. That the blood we knew happened in the house was indeed on the inside part by the front door, which is what we'd speculated but didn't know.
- [11:08]
Randy Sutton
Right.
- [11:09]
Megyn Kelly
And yet the back door is the one being, quote, propped open. So what do you make of that?
- [11:15]
Eric O'Neal
Well, I would. First of all, on the interview, it seemed to me that the interview was a little bit more of Savannah just talking, and you could certainly feel the pain coming through. So more of like a monologue than an interview. So I see where you're going there. And obviously, for the family, this is an immense tragedy. And of course, the fact that they just don't know what happened to the mother and this is Savannah and her siblings is certainly coming through in the motion that Savannah was feeling there. As for the door. Yeah, I thought it was also curious to say that it was propped open. That suggests, of course, what we thought all along, that they went in through the back and with the blood near the front door, probably brought her out through the front. If you're going to move her out quickly, and if this was actually an abduction, and Savannah certainly seems to say a number of times that she still believes it's a kidnapping, then you're going to move her out the front door, which is the fastest egress to get to a car and get out of there.
- [12:11]
Megyn Kelly
Why would you prop open the back door, Randy, if you are this abductor?
- [12:17]
Randy Sutton
Well, this is a question that I had. And when we're talking about propping open the back door, was it propped open by 3 inches? Was it propped open completely, all the way? And the other question that I have is that she lives in a very rural area. Some people open their doors in those rural areas in order to get ventilation. Was this something that was normally done? These questions were not asked nor answered. So those are. Those are questions that I have now. Here's also something that I felt very significant. They knew early on from. From what. What the interview with Savannah was that there was blood. They understood that there. That the ring doorbell had been ripped off. These are. These are huge clues here. So the question that I have is, and of course, her statement that her mother doesn't go walking around and she didn't leave voluntarily, that indicates a crime. Why was this treated as a search and rescue effort, bringing in teams of search and rescue people to trample the scene and to screw the scene up and then within days release that scene? These are the questions that I have that relate directly to the competency of the sheriff.
- [13:40]
Megyn Kelly
What do you make of it, James?
- [13:41]
James Hamilton
Yeah, I was going to echo Randy's sentiment in that she continued to say that the family was really focused on. No, you don't understand. As if they're trying to explain to the police. The police had a narrative. It sounds to me like the police had a narrative that they were saying to her, like, this happens all the time. I'm sure it's nothing. You know, they're trying to minimize it and downplay it, you know, that people go missing or walk away all the time. She's old, yada yada. And they're saying, no, no, no, you don't understand. This isn't like the others. You know, I think that's what she said. And so to me, it sounded like they were trying to impress upon law enforcement to take this more seriously and they were trying to kind of explain it away. Like, you know, this happens a lot.
- [14:21]
Megyn Kelly
The business about, you know, the bad back. And on a good day she could make it to the mailbox. That, that is interesting. And she said, but most days, not most days, Nancy could not even make it to the mailbox. So she was not mobile. Nancy Guthrie was not mobile. And there are more clues that are revealed in the coming sound bites, which I'll get to here is. Hold on, the one where she describes her belief that she thinks her mother was kidnapped for ransom. This is a tough one.
- [14:55]
Savannah Guthrie
SOT 4 My brother, you know, he spent his career in the military and worked in intelligence and fighter pilot and is brilliant. And he saw very clearly right away what this was. And even on the phone when I called him, he knew.
- [15:23]
Megyn Kelly
He knew.
- [15:24]
Savannah Guthrie
And he said, I think she's been kidnapped for ransom. And I said, yeah, what? Why? What? And then, I mean, it sounds so, like how dumb could I be? But I just, I didn't want to believe. I just said, do you think because of me? And he said, don't. Sorry, sweetie. But yeah, maybe. But I knew that you did. I hope not. I mean, we still don't know. Honestly, we don't know anything. We don't know anything. So I don't know. Yeah, that it's because she's my mom and somebody thought, oh, that girl, that lady has money we can get, make a quick buck. I mean, that would make sense, but we don't know. But yeah, that's probably. Which is too much to bear to think that I brought this to her
- [16:43]
Megyn Kelly
bedside,
- [16:46]
Savannah Guthrie
that it's because of me. And I just say, I'm so sorry, Mommy, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry to my sister and my brother and my kids and my nephew and Tommy, my brother in law, just I'm like, so sorry. I'm so, so sorry. If it is me, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
- [17:17]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, that is gut wrenching. And I think anyone can understand what that would feel like, that whatever your job is, someone got angry with you or someone thought you had money or for whatever reason about you did something horrible to your family member, your mom or anyone in your family. You. Of course, she knows it's not actually her fault, but she feels responsible, as I think any human would. But she added to this a couple of things that from an investigative standpoint, I think you guys will find interesting. Like, you know, that was interesting from a human standpoint. And of course, the fact that Savannah, all these weeks later, still believes it was a kidnapping for money due to Savannah's wealth, that does tell us something. I mean, Eric, your thoughts. Your thoughts on the fact that she's still holding on to that belief as her primary theory, you know, six, seven weeks into this crime.
- [18:14]
Eric O'Neal
Yeah, I agree. She certainly believes it's a kidnapping. She's certainly blaming herself. And honestly, it is likely that this was, at least in the beginning, a kidnapping that turned into an abduction. And I honestly believe that even if it started there, you know, you see the blood? Now we know how infirm Nancy Guthrie was that she may have passed pretty quickly and there was no ability to give a sign of life. Now she does. I'm not sure if it's in this clip or a later one, but Savannah does raise something else. It. It's about the ransom notes themselves. She says at one point.
- [18:50]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, that.
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Eric O'Neal
There.
- [18:52]
Megyn Kelly
I have that. Let me play it. Let me play it. And then you take it on the back end. Here we are in S6.
- [18:57]
Savannah Guthrie
There are a lot of different notes, I think, that came, and I think most of them, it's my understanding, are not real, and I didn't see them. But, you know, a person that would send a fake ransom note really has to look deeply at themselves.
- [19:20]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
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Savannah Guthrie
To a family in pain. But I believe the two notes that we received that we responded to, I tend to believe those are real.
- [19:38]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, that was huge. Keep going.
- [19:40]
Eric O'Neal
So here's where I'm going to agree with your earlier statement, Megan.
- [19:44]
Rod Blagojevich
There's.
- [19:45]
Eric O'Neal
There's where you need to follow up. Which two notes? Right.
- [19:48]
Megyn Kelly
Yes.
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Eric O'Neal
So we know that.
- [19:49]
Megyn Kelly
And also why. Why that's it. It doesn't take any sort of experience in the journalism bizarre. Just why. What can you tell us? I know you're limited in what you're going to say, but what can you Tell us to explain why you believed two were real.
- [20:07]
Eric O'Neal
So we. I don't feel like we know. I don't feel like we know now what notes went where. We know that some went to media. We know that some went to tmz. She talked about the same notes or were there independent ones that went to the family? Because it's never made sense to me that the kidnappers in potentially such a massively high profile case are going to send ransom notes to public media and not send it directly to the family. It's not going to be difficult to find a way to get it to Savannah Guthrie. So. So I've never believed that those notes were true. So now I'm questioning were there notes that we don't know about that did go directly to the family that, that haven't been publicized? And that's what Savannah's talking about. And, you know, I wish you had done the interview because I'm sure you would have followed up.
- [20:55]
Megyn Kelly
These. I mean, truly, like who, what, when, where and why are very, very basic journalism steps. Like, it's. That is not rocket scientist science stuff. Like, which notes. The two that went to TMZ and local media. Are those the ones you're talking about? Just to be clear for the record, and it wasn't asked. Assuming it was those notes, here's. Here's the critical question that needed to have been asked. Then why didn't you pay the ransom?
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Rod Blagojevich
Right.
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Eric O'Neal
And that's why I don't believe those were the notes. I don't think those are the.
- [21:28]
Megyn Kelly
I believe those were. See, I disagree with you. I think. I think Savannah, as a journalist would have said there were other notes you don't know about that I'm, you know, whatever. I don't think Savannah would have thrown out there that the two, like so casually. The two. I believe the two were real. I think it was her short form reference to the two that we know about. The first one went to TMZ and two local news outlets, and then the next one only went to the local news outlets. And I think Savannah was short forming. Those are the ones because she said the two we responded to and those are the ones that we were watching them respond to. At least we believe on camera when the family did those like sort of hostage videos of their own. Like, please, please, please, proof. We need to know you have her. But this very obvious question is, then why didn't you pay the ransom? If you thought that this guy really had Nancy, you could have paid reportedly 4 million on the Thursday of the demand or 6 million the Monday after that, Thursday. And you didn't. As far as we know, we certainly have been led to believe they didn't pay it.
- [22:31]
Eric O'Neal
Right. I mean, and that calls into question one other thing. Okay, so let's say she believes, you know, we're, we're debating, but let's say she believes those are, those notes are real. And maybe there was no ability to provide a good sign of life because Nancy Guthrie had expired at that time. But let's say that they did decide to pay. You know, you can track that cryptocurrency as it moves through digital wallets. We talked about this on an earlier episode. You know, that would at least give the FBI an ability to try to find an eventual wallet that they, they could track and potentially find the kidnappers. So if they believed that those were legitimate kidnapping notes, then paying would have given another investigative tool to the FBI.
- [23:22]
Megyn Kelly
Yes. Okay, so, James, do you want to weigh in on this?
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James Hamilton
Yeah.
- [23:26]
Megyn Kelly
You look like you do.
- [23:26]
James Hamilton
I really did. Thank you. Let's go back because I think your listeners are probably seeing the, seeing your clip and then they're saying, how does the brother go there that quickly? And it's very important. Later on, brother in law Savannah will talk about her sister's intuitive ability. But this is, what's happening here is not only Savannah's intuition, but her brother's intuition is pinging here. So what's happened is they are. You know, intuition operates at the subconscious level faster than a computer, and they're putting it together very quickly. Why? Because Savannah is a high net worth individual. More than likely she's had a risk assessment. I know the people over at NBC. I'm sure they've done it. Everyone I ever do with a high net worth person like that, a highly popular person like her or you, I have an anti kidnapping thing, right. We go through kidnapping preparation, mitigation, and we make sure the family has a plan and we walk like I walk through with the family, you know, things to do to not be kidnapped because of this kind of overflow from being related to a famous person.
- [24:27]
Megyn Kelly
And they are, we need to talk offline, James.
- [24:30]
James Hamilton
They are pinging on it. They're like, this is what happened. And then that's why she went, do you think it's because of me? Well, she knows, she's like, oh, God. Because she's always lived with that thought that that could happen. I'm sure her kids go through this. Her husband goes through it. I'm sure, Megan, you go through it all the Time. But certainly, you know, she's been prepped and she knows as being in the, in the limelight, kidnapping is a possibility.
- [24:51]
Megyn Kelly
James, does your prep kit involve a Louisville Slugger and your makeup foundation? Because my mother tells me that's what she's got at her front door. She's ready to go. She's good, she's got her back and she's going to look good.
- [25:04]
James Hamilton
That's a start. That's good. That's called a plan. But certainly I'd like to help her with a little bit more. But that is definitely a good start.
- [25:11]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of us have shorn up the security around our loved ones in the wake of this. I mean, it's a tragedy no matter how, no matter how you look. And it is a crime. It's obviously a crime. She obviously, I mean, I think anybody who is still wondering whether she wandered off can put that to bed. She did not wander off. She was incapable of the wander. I want to play one other sound sound bite for you guys to get your investigative input on it because there were, there were more details about the crime scene included in. I think it's here, SOT3 where she was describing the video, like how the family was able to make those videos and like what they were going through. She drops a couple of details in this soundbite. SOT 3 let's hear them.
- [25:53]
Savannah Guthrie
And somehow together we did our best to come up with the words to say. And I haven't posted one thing or said one thing that the three of us haven't decided together. It is surreal. It's. How is it possible that we are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84 year old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas, with no shoes, without her medicine, this little person and to beg for mercy.
- [26:52]
Megyn Kelly
Again, I'm sorry, but the active listening, the active empathy by Hoda Kotb injecting herself into the moment is just so distracting and unprofessional. Randy, my question for you is there you hear her say, we heard Savannah once before say, taken from her bed in the middle of the night. Now here she repeats the dead of night and she adds in her pajamas with no shoes, without her medicine. So those are details we did not know. We did actually did not know that Nancy was in her pajamas and we did not know that she wasn't wearing shoes. Like she seemed to me to be telegraphing. The shoes and slippers that Nancy wears are all still there, not just like she would have been in her bed asleep, and therefore wouldn't have had shoes on. She seemed to be saying, who would take an old lady in her pajamas without any shoes and no meds? And my note to myself here reads, it does not sound like this person planned on keeping her around for long. Your thoughts on it?
- [27:50]
Randy Sutton
Yeah. So when we're. When we're talking about this. This portion of this interview, this did give us a little more information. And remember that there was DNA found at the scene. And, And. And my question is, what was the condition of the bedroom? Did it show signs of struggle? Were there. Was the DNA found on the bed? You know, I hate to be the bearer of. We've already got terrible news. Unfortunately, if we're going to be realistic here, there is a strong possibility that there was a sexual assault involved in this. This is not an uncommon occurrence that situations like this occur. When we talk about the DNA, there was a combined DNA found. It's really imperative to know, where was that DNA found? Was it something that was discovered on the bed? She's now talking very cryptically about what she was wearing at the time. These are serious clues here. But once again, we don't have. We don't have the answers. We don't. We weren't given the information, but this is critical information to the investigation.
- [29:15]
Megyn Kelly
There's so much I want to go through on that, on that answer and on Savannah's answer, referencing the pajamas and no shoes and without the meds. Let me just stay on that for one second, because I do think that, like, there's a whole new reason to question whether this. This could have been a breaker, an enterer. I feel like it. It may be ruled out, but I'll get to that in one second. Can we just stick James with the. Now she's adding, it was the dead of night. Nancy was in her pajamas. She did not have her shoes when she was taken. She did not have her medication. And so that coupled with Savannah's belief that this was a kidnapping for ransom. Like, does that jive like those two data sets?
- [29:59]
James Hamilton
Yeah, I think they do. The thing I was kind of wanting to hear was, where did the blood begin? And I don't know if she's intentionally being cryptic in not saying that there was blood in that bedroom, because, you know, all I've heard is that the blood is on the porch and in the driveway. But where did that start? The inference is what, He. He hit her on the porch. I. If she had. I just was kind of wanting to hear some more. Details. And. And again, she may not. I think if she know. If she'd seen that or her sister had seen that, they would have told her and that would have obviously helped. You know, the immediate, the immediate thought that they were going through this is not what happened. She did not walk away. You know, there's stuff, there's something going on, but there was no mention of any blood in the bedroom, which is. Is still very. And it's curious to me where did this injury, right?
- [30:52]
Megyn Kelly
And we don't. We don't know. There could be. There could have been.
- [30:55]
James Hamilton
Right.
- [30:55]
Megyn Kelly
And we just don't know. No one so far has reported that there was. And this is Ashley Banfield's latest reporting. She'd been reporting all along from her source, the one that everybody likes to crap on. But this guy early on told her and at law and senior law enforcement source she said she had who's familiar with the details of the case. That's the one who said that they were. That the prime suspect may be Tomas or Tommy, Annie Guthrie's husband. Early on the case and that same week, we saw them tow away Annie and Tomas's car. And then later we saw them inside of their home at 10 o' clock at night when it was dark, they turned off all the lights inside the home and started taking pictures. In any event, since then we've been told, at least our own Chad Ayers reported, he cited a rock solid source, he has boots on the ground there, that the family's all been given polygraphs and quote, passed with flying colors. Okay, so that's where we stand. But the question. But the same source that has become so controversial in Ashley Banfield's reporting, every other thing he said has panned out. He said the back door was found open and it was. Now we hear Savannah say it herself. He said that the ring cameras were destroyed and we know that they're missing and that there was glass found on the front porch at least and there's a little glass bulb on the front of a NEST camera now. And he was the one who said they're NEST cameras, not ring cameras. He was right about that too. And so it's just like her, her source seems like he knew what he was talking about. But everybody wants to dismiss that one piece about like this brother in law, quote, may be the prime suspect at least as of that time. So Ashley has updated her reporting because the other thing he told her was that there, the blood drops we saw on the front porch continued inside the house someplace that there were also Blood droplets that look the same inside the house. But she. She did not have wear. I think most of us assumed that it would be right on the opposite side of that front door, since they were on, you know, outside of the front stoop. And it turns out that's correct. But here's Ashley in her own words, in her own reporting. On Tuesday sat 16, we were told there was blood in the house, but I could never find out where. Where did those investigators see it, so that they knew there was something so dire that they had to bring in homicide investigators. And now I know. Now I know where the blood is inside the house. And it is a fascinating piece of data because it is right in the front entrance of the home. Front entrance, front hallway, whatever you want to call that front entrance. But the blood now in the front entrance of the home is a significant detail about this crime. Just in the front entrance, not in the bedroom. Not in the kitchen, not in the living room, not in that family room. The front entrance has a pattern of blood that is the same as it is outside. And it goes over the threshold out the door. Okay, so correcting myself, she does report no blood found in the bedroom. And actually she doubles down on that here in Sat 17. Take a listen. And a common mistake a lot of
- [34:09]
Randy Sutton
investigators make is they hyper focus on
- [34:12]
Eric O'Neal
the place where they first see the
- [34:14]
Randy Sutton
blood, and they think this is where the attack occurred.
- [34:18]
Megyn Kelly
And that is almost.
- [34:19]
Randy Sutton
I wouldn't say almost always incorrect.
- [34:22]
Megyn Kelly
Finding the blood in one room doesn't mean that that's the room where the,
- [34:25]
Randy Sutton
you know, the attack occurred or the incident occurred. You have to go back, and you need to look for other potential items or.
- [34:33]
Megyn Kelly
Or artifacts to give you indications of what might have happened. All right, that's her guest, who is a blood stain expert, Dr. Peter Valentin. So look, we now know there was blood that continued inside as you open the door right there. And that Ashley's reporting there was no blood inside the bedroom. But. But there's an additional sound bite I got to run for you guys. Because she does make a reference to how Nancy was taken. And it's when Hoda asks her about seeing the masked man on the front porch, trying to see which sound bite. This isn't on my list. Is it five? Yes, it is top five. Let's go.
- [35:19]
Savannah Guthrie
I mean, it's just absolutely terrifying. Yeah, it's just totally terrifying. And I can't imagine that that is who she saw standing over her bed.
- [35:38]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, right there.
- [35:39]
Savannah Guthrie
I can't. It's too much.
- [35:42]
Pat Brosnan
Yeah.
- [35:46]
Savannah Guthrie
And I'm glad and grateful to the investigators and the technology companies that were able to find that video. Do I hope, at least with people of good heart and compassion, stop the irresponsible and cruel speculation that had started to swirl.
- [36:17]
Megyn Kelly
Talk about that for a minute.
- [36:18]
Savannah Guthrie
I'm glad that people saw.
- [36:20]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [36:22]
Savannah Guthrie
What came to our door.
- [36:27]
Megyn Kelly
And we'll get to that second piece of it in a minute. But you heard the detail, right? Standing over her bed. That's a new detail. We heard from her bed. Now we hear standing over her bed. And that's why, James, I feel like.
- [36:42]
Savannah Guthrie
And
- [36:44]
Megyn Kelly
in my view, this. This was not a breaking and entering where, like, she just ruled out that Nancy Guthrie stumbled upon a burglar who was there to steal and got crosshairs in the crosshairs of this guy and then got taken. That's. If what she just said there is known, then that's not true. And as you know, a burglar who's going into somebody's home in the middle of the night at 1:47am is not like, I'm definitely going to check the bedroom where the homeowner might be sleeping right now. Right. It's like, I mean, maybe they would. Maybe I'm wrong. But she seems to be saying that the mother was taken from the bed stand. The guy was standing over poor Nancy, then dragged her out of there. No purse, no phone, no meds, no shoes, in the pajamas that she was wearing. To me, that does not sound like a breaker and an enterer. It sounds like someone who was there to get Nancy.
- [37:45]
James Hamilton
Yeah. And I think kind of what Randy was saying, but this sounds much more nefarious. And I'd like. I'd love to know how she, you know, does she know that? Did someone tell her, hey, we have evidence of footprints or something that he was standing over your mother before he did whatever he did. Or is she saying maybe there is
- [38:03]
Megyn Kelly
something on the bed sheets?
- [38:04]
James Hamilton
What's that?
- [38:06]
Megyn Kelly
Maybe there is something on the bed sheets. Like, maybe. Maybe there is something there that. That leads them to believe that's where it all.
- [38:13]
James Hamilton
Yeah, I think a couple weeks ago she said taken from her bed. And you and I keyed on that, Megan. And now she's saying standing over her, like, watching her, you know, in with that mask. And so now that's okay. Are you getting that from some investigator? Or is this something that you just believe? You know, like a story that you're. You're saying to yourself, like, okay, this is probably what she was going through? Because if it's the Former. That some investigators telling her, yeah, he's standing over her like a predator and prey. Okay. That's a whole different thing than Savannah is just, you know, thinking the worst and going, God, my mom went through this, and it was tragic to watch.
- [38:51]
Megyn Kelly
Mm. And it does suggest to me, Eric, that when she said taken from her bed a couple of weeks ago, it was not an accident. That is what they believe. Because here she doubles down saying. Standing over her in the bed, which may just be a figure of speech. You know, she's just sort of picturing how this went down. But either way, she's twice now said Nancy was taken from her bed. And therefore, I believe that's what she believes, and therefore, I believe that's what investigators believe. And therefore, the theory that Nancy may have been wandering around and bumped into a burglar is out.
- [39:25]
Rod Blagojevich
Right.
- [39:26]
Megyn Kelly
You know, if we trust what the sheriff believes.
- [39:29]
Eric O'Neal
Yes. Taken from her bed. So that does suggest that she's heard that from investigators, that it began there in the room. It disabuses the notion there were some theories early on that maybe he rang the doorbell and she came down to the door. Now with the door.
- [39:45]
Megyn Kelly
Right.
- [39:45]
Eric O'Neal
The back door propped open and the. The hole taken from the bed. And, you know, the other thing that, you know, I think that Savannah wants to do is impress upon anyone listening the horror of the situation, not just for the family, but. But painting that picture that this person went into her mother's house, that her mother is a frail, small person, elderly, that he stood over her bed, lurking there. That. I mean, that sinister image might stick in people's minds. And she may be hoping that someone feels that horror, feels that pain and decides to do the right thing and give a really good tip or clue that leads to. That leads the investigators to. To some fruitful point in the investigation.
- [40:33]
Megyn Kelly
Randy, what do you make of it? That the standing over her in her bed. I mean, we're getting an image now of how this thing went down. We have the pictures of the man on the porch. We know there was some sort of, if not a struggle. Something led Nancy Guthrie to start bleeding at some point once he got her. And we know that the original contact between the two of them appears to have been with Nancy asleep in her bed and the perpetrator coming over her and getting her out of there. No shoes, no change of clothes, no meds, no purse, no phone, no anything. So as you listen to that sequence of events, what does it say to you?
- [41:13]
Randy Sutton
I think we can completely eliminate the random burglar type of scenario here that was thrown out by a number of people. Impossible. If you look at the statistical analysis of crimes in that area, you will find that there has not been a nighttime hot prowl burglary in that area in years. The burglaries that have taken place that have been reported have been mostly daytime burglaries. A burglar that.
- [41:45]
Megyn Kelly
Outstanding. All those tapes we saw, Randy, of, like, random people looking in people's windows and so on.
- [41:51]
Randy Sutton
Yeah. The reality is that when you look at the. At the statistics, the real crime statistics, there hasn't been a nighttime hot prowl burglary in. Intrusion into a house in that area in recent memory. It just doesn't happen, especially in that area, because most. Remember, most of these homes are alarmed. They have, you know, surveillance equipment. And it's not something that is normally burglars. Most burglars, if they're. If they want. If they want property, they don't want to have a confrontation. Are people going to be home during the day or they're going to be at night? Right. So this. It's just nonsense to even think that this was a random burglar that happened to, you know, then panic and take her. Impossible. This was planned. I fully believe that there was definitely more than one person involved. I believe there was a driver involved as well. What we have not heard, and this is from a source that I have, is that that blood trail continued. Continued from all the way into the driveway. That indicates to me that that individual who committed this took Mrs. Guthrie, probably by carrying her through the home where the. Where the blood spatter was. It.
- [43:09]
Rod Blagojevich
It.
- [43:11]
Randy Sutton
There was a trail that went out into the driveway where they loaded her into a car and they took her.
- [43:18]
Megyn Kelly
That's the. That's the most I've ever heard anyone say on how far out the blood trail went. We heard from Brian Enten, who got that video we keep showing that it was on the front stoop, the red brick area. Then Fox News showed us additional video of blood droplets on the gray, more gravelly looking path that we're showing here. You can see, thanks to Fox video of that, but no one has ever said it did, in fact continue from there over to the driveway, suggesting. I mean, I think we assumed that she didn't just vanish into thin air at that point. But, like, no one's ever actually said that. You're the first person to actually say that. That I know of.
- [43:58]
Randy Sutton
Yeah. I developed that information not long ago from a source.
- [44:03]
Megyn Kelly
So there's no doubt in your mind that she was put into a car.
- [44:06]
Randy Sutton
Absolutely no doubt in my mind. She was put into a car. And of course, then that. That is, is a huge investigative lead that they have been clearly trying to follow up on in requesting doorbell video surveillance video from convenience stores from. From, you know, any entrances and egresses from that neighborhood. That's why it was so essential that they try and get as much footage as possible from any surveillance cameras in that entire area. Because this didn't happen in a vacuum. The car didn't suddenly appear. It was there. It had to go through the neighborhood. It had to be there. It had to come in from one of the directions. Here's something that also has not been really spoken about, and that is the cell phone information from any of the cell phone towers. You haven't heard a drop about that. And that is very, very curious because that tells me that this was planned to the nth degree that they didn't have cell phones. And that right in and of itself,
- [45:26]
Megyn Kelly
the guy was clever. This is Eric's area of expertise. But the guy was. Before I go to you, Eric, I want to stay with you on this, Randy, before we get to the cell phone thing, the back door being propped open. Propped open. That's different from open. It's like open. You just whatever, you opened it, you walked in, you kind of forgot about it, and then you brought her out the front door. I think that's what we've been thinking. But if you propped it open, like to leave it open, you know, the way you would if you had someone coming in behind you in a few minutes maybe, or you were carrying something heavy you needed to get through the door. I don't like that. To me, Randy, does potentially support another person being there that you would prop it. I don't know. A lot of people have, like, an umbrella stand next to their door or, you know, a small little couch for people to sit down and put on their shoes. Or some of those doors have one of those little sliders that you can put on that will keep the door open. But you tell me why a guy there to potentially kidnap Nancy would prop the back door open. Well, that's why she's trying to think out loud like an accomplice to bring something more into the home or potentially out of the home. He thought he was going to maybe steal a lot and he wanted to, like, not have to deal with the door. Or maybe he thought he was going to bring Nancy out the back and the plan changed. Go ahead.
- [46:54]
Randy Sutton
Well, this is why my question originally that we talked about is, did Mrs. Guthrie leave the prop the door open on a routine basis, like I said, for ventilation? The other possibility is we know that there was more than one individual involved. When you're talking about carrying a person out, it's not easy to do by yourself. You know, it's going to be a whole lot more efficient if you have more than one person doing that. And that would indicate keeping the door open for an accomplice.
- [47:36]
Megyn Kelly
Eric, go ahead. Because the cell phone situation. And now we're talking, like, if there's. If there's more than one person. And by the way, a retired Pima county homicide detective named Kurt Dabb gave an interview to Parade magazine, and he said he believes there may be two to four accomplices on this crime, saying the logistics of something of this magnitude is much too much for one person to handle, in my professional opinion, based on the facts as I know them right now. So then that would mean no one brought their cell phone.
- [48:06]
Rod Blagojevich
Right.
- [48:07]
Eric O'Neal
So I'm agree with Randy there. There are certainly there. There have to be multiple people. You're not just going to have one person go in and then abduct her and then bring her out. You know, where is the car? You're not going to want to leave the car while you go into the house. There had to at least be someone in the car. And if you remember from some of our earlier interviews, you know, that blood pattern out along the walkway there was in sort of a straight line, which would suggest. I think I said earlier that. That she might have been carried. And it's dripping down behind. You know, one thing about the. Before I get to the cell phone, before that back door being propped, you know, what's sort of stuck in my mind is you're going into a house and whether it's an abduction or what, but let's say it's a kidnapping. You know, maybe he propped the door because he didn't know what he was going to find, and he. He was thinking, I got to get out. If I have to get out quickly, I don't want to be fumbling with a door. As for the cell phones, yes, you can ping cell phones. What the FBI and law enforcement can do is go to the cell phone provider and get the data for any cell phones that ping those towers. You can get a approximate location. So what they could do is check all of the cell phones that were hitting the area around that time and then try to wait.
- [49:19]
Megyn Kelly
But, Eric, can't they do the geofencing where it's like, they don't have to go through all that. They say they have technology to say, show us which phones were in Nancy
- [49:28]
Eric O'Neal
Guthrie's area, home and around her property, approximate area. So all they need to do is take the time, and then they can have every phone that pinged around those towers. It's not completely approximate, but it's close enough, right, to say this person doesn't live here and was there at that time of night. And clearly they don't have that data, which would suggest that the criminals didn't bring their phones, which is the smart thing to do. But what stands out for me is they would have had to be there at some point earlier to case the area. That's a very complex warren of streets. So if they're going to get to that property, they would have had to be there earlier, casing it. And I think that's one of the reasons they really wanted those doorbell cams and ring cams and any surveillance cams from property, because if they came through during the day, just to drive through to see, okay, here's how we get to the house, here's how we get out. Maybe something got caught. And if you also remember, they were going back later and getting on ladders and actually pulling physical cards out of those cameras just to see if there was anything that the people didn't report.
- [50:35]
Megyn Kelly
Mm. Yeah. And it does make you reminds me that now they're making clear they're interested. Also in January 11th on the request for people to pull tapes, Savannah mentioned that to a local news outlet in a statement recently. Maybe because maybe the guy forgot to leave the phone at home every time. All right, Eric has to go, but James and Randy stay with me. There's much, much more to get to. Don't go away.
- [50:55]
Rod Blagojevich
Thank you.
- [50:56]
Megyn Kelly
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Rod Blagojevich
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Megyn Kelly
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Rod Blagojevich
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Megyn Kelly
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James Hamilton
To realize the future America needs, we
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Rod Blagojevich
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- [52:50]
Pat Brosnan
We are Marines.
- [52:52]
Rod Blagojevich
We were made for this.
- [52:58]
Megyn Kelly
James Hamilton and Randy Sutton are back with me now and also joining me is Pat Brosnan. Brosnan, my old pal from Fox News, retired NYPD detective and host of Pat Brosnan Live from the Batcave. Pat, so great to have you. Thanks for joining us, Megan.
- [53:13]
Pat Brosnan
It's a trip down memory lane. It's great to be on it. Thank you.
- [53:17]
Megyn Kelly
Totally. It's great to see you. Let me start by getting your perspective on the latest these revelations that Savannah believes this was a kidnapping for ransom. She reveals doubles down on an earlier statement that her mother was taken from her bed in the dark of night. Here she says that this man could could have just been turn of phrase which says was over her mother in the bed, you know, snatching her in the middle of the night, that she was taken without her shoes, that she was taken while in her pajamas. And reiterating some details we did know like didn't have her purse, didn't have her phone and didn't have her meds. All of those are interesting investigatively. And also adding detail about how the back door of the house was quote propped open we believe by the perpetrator though don't know that for sure. Coupled with Ashley Bamfield's reporting that there was a blood trail that continued into the front foyer area of the home but not beyond and that her reporting is there was no blood found in the bedroom. So your thoughts on where that leaves us and your theory.
- [54:17]
Pat Brosnan
Well, first of all, I've been a detective for over 40 years, both in public service and private with the NYPD, and I was a robbery detective. And I will tell you, as I sit here today, 53 long days later, I still do not know exactly what crime occurred. Don't know. I don't know. And that's based on publicly available material. Facts, interviews with various folks who have specific details, knowledge, data, intel. Still don't know. I don't know. Is it a burglary? Gun, bed? Is it a robbery gone bad? A home invasion gone bad, which is an elevated robbery with force. Is it an assault gone bad? Or is it a violent abduction? And every time I deconstruct and reconstruct this case, and I do, Megan, painstakingly come to a wall. Because to support the violent abduction theory or construction requires three things. It requires a cogent proof of life, a transaction path, a pathway to make the transaction, as well as a cogent demand. And not any time, whenever I've reconstructed and analyzed this case, do any of them support that theory. Every time it falls apart. Unless this is the rarest of all the rare violent abductions, and they, thankfully, are very rare. A not for profit transaction. A not for profit. I still don't know what it is, because where's the request for the money? And this is 53 days later. So.
- [55:55]
Megyn Kelly
Well, she's saying she believes those two, quote, ransom notes that TMZ and the other locals got are real. That seems to be what she's saying. Some clarifying journalism would have been appreciated, but that seems to be what she is saying, that she believed those first two, which means this Harvey Levin announcement when he got the one was, if she's right, an actual communication from an actual kidnapper who did have Nancy throwback here in 37.
- [56:25]
Randy Sutton
So we got something in our email that looks like a. It's written like a ransom note for Savannah Guthrie's mother. Specific requests, certain amounts of money, very specific Bitcoin. And also, they say at the bottom, there are certain things they're saying about what she was wearing and damage to the house, as if clearly saying to verify it's us. We know what we're talking about here. So we are. We've contacted the sheriff's department, and we want to get them this letter. And we had a little trouble getting through to the right person, but the person we spoke with is now forwarding this to somebody in the detective bureau. Again, we don't know. We don't know if if it's authentic or not.
- [57:13]
Megyn Kelly
But they're.
- [57:15]
Randy Sutton
When you read it, they're acting as if. Yeah, only we would know these things. And we're serious. And there's a dollar demand and an or else in there.
- [57:27]
Megyn Kelly
Okay. And we would later find out that the dollar demand related to being paid in bitcoin. It was reportedly $4 million if they paid by that Thursday, $6 million if they wait until the follow up Monday. And the family then came to the cameras and started begging for a negotiation. You know, the first we had Savannah Guthrie with the. Talk to her and you'll see, you know, which were. Which were sort of eerie lines because that was exactly what a character in Silence of the Lambs said. Then she did reference the potential ransom note in that very first video Savannah did. Here is sought 28.
- [58:07]
Savannah Guthrie
We too have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media. As a family, we are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk. However, we live in a world where voices and images are easily manipulated. We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her. We want to hear from you, and we are ready to listen. Please reach out to us.
- [58:50]
Megyn Kelly
So that was after the ransom note had dropped with tmz. And by the way, so that was Wednesday after the Sunday that she was discovered missing. So this is just days after it was Wednesday. Then on Thursday, they dropped another one. February 5th, with the brother, Cameron Guthrie, alone. You remember that? And then by Saturday night, now we've. Now we've missed the Thursday deadline. By Saturday night, they dropped another one that sounded more almost reconciled to the fact that Nancy might no longer be with us. Here's part of that. 31.
- [59:23]
Savannah Guthrie
We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us. And we will pay.
- [59:43]
Megyn Kelly
We will pay. But the. But they didn't pay. As far as we know, Guys like everyone was monitoring the bitcoin account that, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, the media had the numbers on. Harvey had the numbers on, and the local news had the numbers on. And Harvey was able to see whether deposits had been made. And he reported that they had not been. So it did not. There's no reason to believe they paid the ransom, which I just don't understand other than, you know, James, they never got proof of life. So even though they believed the ransom notes were legit, I guess they just weren't going to pay it because they thought they're not going to return her or tell us where she is. They didn't trust that they had a good faith bargainer on the other side.
- [60:28]
James Hamilton
Yeah, I'm having real difficulty, again, with the thought that this individual took her and then he wanted to use TMZ as a go between to get his money. As if TMZ is the current Jerry Richardson of the negotiation of all things. And that's just crazy. I don't know that TMZ has ever negotiated the safe return of another individual. So why would they go through that? It doesn't stand. It doesn't make any sense.
- [60:54]
Megyn Kelly
The theory was that he. He, the kidnapper would have gone, that the three entities he chose all had, like, tip lines. Like, they didn't send an email. They went on, like, if you go to TMZ and you have a news tip, you know, like, Justin Timberlake just got arrested for dwi. You can. You can type that in on their website on a page without really, you know, I guess, any identifying information. But it would seem to me that the FBI can always find identifying information about where. From where you typed that page. But maybe not, because here we are seven weeks in. They never arrested that person.
- [61:29]
James Hamilton
Correct. And, you know, again, we don't know that the FBI is in lockstep with the Pima County Sheriff's Office in this investigation. We don't know that at all. We have. It seems to be a disparate investigation being done by two different agencies. Agencies. But, you know, even if, you know, this interview, this clip you're showing of her and the family talking directly, if it's done correctly, you know, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but there's certainly going to be some coaching in the background by, you know, a negotiator from the bureau who explains to them what to say and how to say it. It's extremely rare that they would let a family just, you know, independently, you know, negotiate or communicate with the. The person. It just does. They don't work. They don't work it that way. And again, no proof of life. So why am I sending you money? You know, and I think she even alluded to that There are a lot of people with bad souls that, you know, take advantage. And. And that's certainly what I still believe that theory is, is that people doing that, you know, they picked up some information they saw in a video I think you showed of, you know, Nancy's home from years ago. They would have had enough information to make it Seem as though they. They had inside information and they wanted to make a quick buck.
- [62:45]
Megyn Kelly
But what then why didn't they? That's right. Isn't that one of the big questions? Like what do you think, Randy? What if. That if they had her, even if she had died, why. There's a way of sending proof. You have her, a lock of hair, you know, something. Something really specific you saw inside the house that would convince them you had her. I mean, even what Savannah's saying in the videos, the hostage videos, is like, we need to know you have her. They don't specifically say proof of life. And even the reward that she eventually posted for a million dollars is for information leading to either, you know, Nancy, like alive or her remains or leading to the arrest of this suspect.
- [63:33]
Randy Sutton
Yeah, exactly. And I personally, when I. When I look at these, the. The methodology utilized in. In. In reaching out to the family, it. It really doesn't make a lot of sense. Now, we do know that. That there were. Remember, she. She alluded to numerous ransom demands. The two that she took seriously were these two. But remember there was an arrest made on one of the. On another ransom demand that they were able to track that was texted directly
- [64:05]
Megyn Kelly
to, I think, Thomas Tommy, the brother in law.
- [64:09]
Randy Sutton
And I'm curious as to the others that they received. Remember, there's a bunch of nut cases out there, they're gonna jump into this that confuse the issue. And of course that takes resources away from the agency, whether it's the FBI or Pima County. But let's look at what has actually resulted. Nothing. There's been no proof of life. If that was a reality, if these people truly had her, that would have been an easy thing to provide, and they didn't do it. So I'm not a believer that this was a ransom, that this was a legitimate ransom demand. I am a little curious as to how they have not been able to track that those ransom demands. And of course, you know, Pat said something, you know, that maybe this is a disparate investigation because we do know that the FBI and Pima county have not been in lockstep. In fact, you haven't even. The FBI have never seen them. So absent from the news, when it comes down to a high profile case like this, that tells me.
- [65:20]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, that's true.
- [65:21]
Randy Sutton
That tells me that they aren't getting involved because of what's. Of the animosity between that sheriff and. I'm using that. I'm even using that word loosely. The sheriff there and the bat.
- [65:36]
Megyn Kelly
From bad to worse for the sheriff now his. You look like you want to get on that, Pat.
- [65:42]
Pat Brosnan
Beyond useless. I'll be honest, and it kills me. No one loves law enforcement more than me. This guy was not up to the task from minute one. He made every mistake conceivable from the onset. Won't get into the details of it, but he's surrounded by folks, I'm certain, men and women who are very committed to protect and serve, who are fantastically loyal to the investigation. But there is a sad reality, and it's a supreme irony. Megan and I know, Randy and James know this as well. You live in an affluent area like the Catalina foothills. The officers who were sworn to protect and serve you in that area by virtue of the fact that there are no real crimes, certainly no crimes of this level of violence. They have no historical perspective. They've never done it before. They've never done it before. I've spoken to.
- [66:35]
Megyn Kelly
It's not like getting a Pat Brosnan assigned to your case or James Hamilton
- [66:39]
Pat Brosnan
or Randy Sutton or a John Doe who's been in the Bronx or in a hawk Harlem or in East Brooklyn and has done 100 of them or 500 of them. And that just comes down to legacy experience and expertise. And it is a supreme irony. It really is. The safest neighborhoods have the officers with the least experience. And no one wants to articulate it, but I will articulate it because I still think they're amazing, amazing folks, but they just haven't done it because they're in an area that's affluent and relatively crime free.
- [67:09]
Randy Sutton
Sid, I have some.
- [67:10]
Megyn Kelly
I have more on the sheriff.
- [67:12]
Randy Sutton
I have some insight into this particular subject. So by perspective, Tucson lies within Pima county, and Tucson is a very violent city. They investigate about 55 murders per year. So they have a very experienced homicide bureau. In contrast, Pima county has about five homicides per year. And the sheriff, in his infinite wisdom, fired or didn't fire, but reassigned most of the homicide unit who had investigative experience. He put him back in, in various assignments as a punishment to them. So in actuality, the homicide detectives are very, very inexperienced. One of them, from my understanding, has never investigated a homicide. And that's not saying anything detrimental about them. But it's as Pat said, especially homicide work. This is a learned skill. This is something that takes years to get expertise in homicide work. And that's why homicide detectives, when they're involved, they stay for 20 years because that experience is. You cannot.
- [68:30]
James Hamilton
You.
- [68:31]
Randy Sutton
There's no other avenue for being.
- [68:34]
Megyn Kelly
No, you can't short form It.
- [68:36]
Randy Sutton
Exactly.
- [68:37]
Megyn Kelly
I'm thinking as you're speaking about Brian Kohlberger, who was getting his PhD in criminology, who made so many stupid, amateurish mistakes because you can't just study it. You actually have to be on the job learning how to in his case, commit crime. But in your cases, solve crime. And the sheriff's taking. I have yet to find somebody literally. I've been looking to say, this is not fair. The sheriff is a great investigator and a really good guy. Instead, no matter who you ask, they hate him. There was just a no confidence vote by the entire police union. Every single guy in it and gal voted. We do not have confidence in him. We don't want him. The county supervisor came out, gave an interview to Brianton saying no, can't stand him. In fact, I'll play some of that. He's like, he's talking about his beginnings back in 1980 from El Paso where it turns out he did some allegedly unethical things. And this is what pima County Supervisor Dr. Matt Heinz said to Brian Entin in Sat 19.
- [69:43]
Eric O'Neal
So it was eight suspensions in a
- [69:45]
James Hamilton
little over five years. And it is kind of unusual to
- [69:49]
Eric O'Neal
have any suspension for most of our officers.
- [69:52]
James Hamilton
So to have eight in five years, that's. These are, this is a really troubling record. He was frankly a bad cop.
- [69:59]
Pat Brosnan
Yeah.
- [69:59]
James Hamilton
Lots of dereliction of duty, tardiness, unnecessary force and discourtesy, whatever that. Okay, where is it? Excessive force.
- [70:08]
Eric O'Neal
That one wasn't sustained.
- [70:09]
Megyn Kelly
Habitual tardiness.
- [70:10]
Eric O'Neal
Excessive force again, 15 days and then
- [70:13]
James Hamilton
eventually the next page for July of 82.
- [70:17]
Eric O'Neal
Insubordination and consistent inefficiency.
- [70:21]
Megyn Kelly
Which is like kind of one of
- [70:22]
James Hamilton
my new favorite phrases.
- [70:24]
Eric O'Neal
He was forced to resign in lieu of termination.
- [70:28]
James Hamilton
The entire four decade history of his presence here in Southern Arizona has been based on fraud.
- [70:34]
Megyn Kelly
It is clear to me that he
- [70:35]
James Hamilton
is not capable or competent to, to lead in this office. He is more than tarnished. And I don't.
- [70:43]
Megyn Kelly
That's not specific to any investigation.
- [70:46]
James Hamilton
The investor, the most recent high profile one, certainly has been shining light on, on things.
- [70:53]
Megyn Kelly
I mean that those are rough allegations. The sheriff has previously sort of poo pooed what happened in El Paso. Like, oh my God, you know, what do you want to get me? I'm like my middle school grades next. Like this is not a big deal, but the entire union being against him. He's got some very senior ex cops who've gone on the record in this case saying not a good guy and not a good investigator. Now you Hear the county supervisors. I mean, like James, the list is long.
- [71:19]
James Hamilton
Yeah, we talked about it, I think, three or four episodes ago, where you played the tape of him talking bad about the bureau for investigating him and how he's the real cop. And, you know, again, I think it's always a bad thing. If we're. The sheriff of a very large organization is somehow leading a major investigation, that is not their role. Their role is to get resources. Their role is to talk to the media. Their role is to do damage control. Their role is to support the officers who are actually doing the work. That's what you want from a sheriff or a chief. You do not want them working the case. That is usually, in my experience, not a good thing. And it certainly isn't helpful for the victims.
- [72:02]
Megyn Kelly
Savannah was asked about the investigation, I mean, which obviously isn't going so well, and she threaded that needle. Just. Just. So take a listen here. SOT 8.
- [72:15]
Savannah Guthrie
How did your family feel about the
- [72:17]
Megyn Kelly
way the investigation was conducted?
- [72:21]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, it's still going.
- [72:23]
Rod Blagojevich
Yeah.
- [72:25]
Savannah Guthrie
And, yeah, people have worked tirelessly. Tirelessly. And we see that. But we need answers. We cannot be at peace without knowing. And someone can do the right thing, and it is never too late to do the right thing. And our hearts are focused on that.
- [73:01]
Megyn Kelly
She was too smart to, you know, rip on the sheriff who's currently got her mother's fate in his hands in some ways. So she said, well, it's still going. That's her telegraphing, like, I don't. I can't say anything bad. And a shout out to the people who have worked, quote, tirelessly on the case. I'm sure there are a lot of investigators who are doing everything night and day to solve this crime. But then a demand for answers at the end, like, and. And then finally a reach out to the kidnapper or abductor, whoever it is, to say, please, it's never too late. It doesn't seem she has confidence in the sheriff. And I have to feel for her, Pat, because when she got the news from her family that the mom had been taken, they thought, right. And she. She was in New York, and she had to get on a plane and fly out to Arizona. The reports early on were that she called Arizona Democratic Senator Mark Kelly and she said to him, you know, like, this terrible thing has happened. And reportedly, he vouched for the sheriff, like, you're in good hands. You'll be fine. And that kind of thing. You know, I'm sure that a US Senator would do that, because maybe he knows nanos and he's. Nanos is also a Democrat. It's kind of like, yeah, you're good. You're in good hands. Don't worry, he'll take care of you. I'll call him. You know, I'll make sure he takes care of you. But it does make me think, you know, you're in that position that Mark Kelly's in. You get a call from somebody like Savannah Guthrie about something as serious like you, you have to make damn sure you guys know this as actual cops, like you don't recommend you're in good hands with this particular guy unless you know he can do this. Like, if this is a friend of yours, it's Savannah Guthrie. I know, I know. If I called you, Pat, and said God forbid something like this happened, you. You would not say trust this sheriff or this FBI agent unless you knew I could take it to the bank. And I think something. My guess is that something went wrong here, that he recommended Nanos. In a way, Savannah came to trust Nanos. And this was placed in the hands of the wrong person. And I don't think the family leaned on him or the authorities strongly enough not. Not to blame them. I'm just saying I think they trusted him early on to get this out of his hands and into the hands of the FBI. Your thoughts?
- [75:16]
Pat Brosnan
Well, I think so. First of all, her words were carefully chosen, carefully parsed. But I think this may be a case where the senator almost perhaps a knee jerk response relative to the competence of the sheriff, and then again, the sheriff who has, because I did some research on him, he has a very checkered past in many ways. You mentioned no confidence and so forth. But because he had no history. Again. Again, Megan, supreme irony. No history of ever conducting any serious investigations, and this is extremely serious. So there wouldn't be any context or nuance, legacy nuance or context for the senator to lean into relative to his capabilities. Right. So it's the perfect circle. It's a perfect circle. Yeah. I think my understanding is he's a good guy, whatever that means. Yeah, it seems like a good egg. And he's leading that force. But again, no, no, no. Fact based context that. Yeah, I recall now when they had that triple murder, you know, three years ago, he led it efficiently and effectively and he was able to develop the relevant intel, data, reports and facts and lead to, you know, arrest, indictment, conviction, nothing. The reason is nothing. It comes back to the circle of the affluence of the area and the virtual absence of serious and certainly super violent crimes. Yeah, this one is suggested to be.
- [76:43]
Megyn Kelly
You can't. You can never give your recommendation unless you actually know, especially on something as important as this. Like we needed a real cop at the head of this investigation. And it just doesn't feel to me like we have it. I. We only have a short time left, but I have to get this in. Jumping back to Savannah soundbites that probe where the investigation is and how she's feeling about it. Now, very clearly, Savannah does not believe any member of her family had anything to do with this. And that we understand and it makes perfect sense. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to give them the same benefit of the doubt. I would expect her to defend her immediate family members, but she. First time. This is the first time we hear her directly show her anger over the speculation in particular about. I mean, it's been about Tomas. She calls him Tommy. But she seems to suggest maybe her brother Cameron also came under fire. Maybe that happened with some influencers that I don't know about. And obviously Annie is married to Tommy, so she's been somewhat under the microscope because her car got towed by the authorities and impounded and kept for some six weeks for investigative purposes and because the cops kept going back to her house and taking pictures with all the lights out and taking items from her home, even though that wasn't the crime scene. So of course people were like, what's going on with those two? And the husband was the last one to see Nancy alive, you know, prior to the abductor. So here's Savannah though, lamenting the focus on the family in Sat 7.
- [78:16]
Savannah Guthrie
It's unbearable. And it piles pain upon pain. There are no words. There are no words I don't understand. I'll never understand. And no one took better care of my mom than my sister and brother in law. And no one protected my mom more than my brother. And we love her and she is our shining light. She's our matriarch. She's all we have.
- [79:04]
Megyn Kelly
I'm just gonna say here again would have been a great place for some follow up journalism. Tell us why you don't believe they had anything to do with it. And she might have been willing to answer. They all took polygraphs and passed with flying colors as we had Chad Ayers report on our air a week ago. But we don't know what she's basing that on right now because the question wasn't asked, the information wasn't provided. But James, you tell me whether there's been something irresponsible Forget what the influencers do. They're going to say and they're going to say Savannah did it. The influencers are going to go, you know, so called influencers who are just going out there for clicks. I'm talking about actual journalists and clearly she's mad at Ashley Banfield and we've heard that, I heard that myself that she's furious with, with Ashley and about the reports involving her brother in law. But you tell me whether it's irresponsible to take a look at, at Tommy and Annie.
- [79:56]
James Hamilton
No, it's not. And it, you know, we haven't, again, we have a lady and who has not been found and so we, it's a lead bucket. You know, we're, if we're working this case we're going back to a number of leads and friends family is, is a lead bucket and we have to look there. Right. But unfortunately what you have on the back end is you, you know, the sheriff's already said I've cleared them. So how do you, you know, we, we talked about this a couple episodes ago. How do you clear somebody if you haven't solved the crime? So yeah, they might have an alibi for the actual night but it doesn't mean they rose in an involvement that you know, you don't find about later. So it's very difficult to say I've cleared somebody without solving the actual crime. So that's, you know, I think she's hearing, you know, both sides getting frustrated because wait, the sheriff said we're cleared and yet these people are still asking these questions. We have to look at it. Okay. And, and there's a way to do that in a way that doesn't seem, you know, terribly listen to her trauma. She lost her dad when she was 16. I mean it is, it is dripping off of her. So any inference of anything that her family's done wrong here is going to be doubly compounded by all the trauma she's been through. Right. I mean I get it, I understand it but obviously, you know, that's an area they have to look in and then there's a number of areas are looking in but you know, we don't have anything where we are nowhere after 53 days.
- [81:18]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. And even she says we have no idea, we don't know anything. She said this is her theory that she's sticking with about an abduction, a kidnapping for ransom. But she explicitly says we don't know anything.
- [81:32]
James Hamilton
Right, but like what Pat's saying. But Pat is right. You know, these communities that elect these folks. It's all fun and games until you really need a law enforcement person for a high profile crime like this. And when you're in these little sleepy areas and nothing bad ever happens, you know, and then it does like we said, I think the first episode it is highlighted. I mean you have a. Of flashlight of strobe light on you and your competence or incompetence. And. And it's, it is really, really difficult if you've never worked a case like this. And this is a tough one. Right. And so again that. That's what Pat's talking about and he's 100. Correct. And they're, they're the victim of that. And she can't just go out, meaning Savannah, and just hire, you know, some expert to come in and take over the case. It does not work that way. Law enforcement has, you know, the primacy on it. So it's, it's very, very difficult situation.
- [82:26]
Megyn Kelly
I mean I will say also nor can she dictate what the media is going to speculate about because I'm sure there are major downsides to the family of the media being so interested in the case. But the upsides are far more important and considerable. Like they're the, the media interest in this case, if anything is what's going to get it solved is what's going to keep the pressure on Nanos, his department. It's why we have the vote of no confidence. They don't normally just run to the microphones in any given case that the sheriff isn't solving and say we don't have confidence in this guy. You need to know he's not up to the task. You know, the media is bringing all the pressure. She, it was the, the one misstep I would say Savannah made in this interview. And there, there was no other was where she complained about how the family had to move locations I guess more than once because there were media outside and she talked about how it's like in the dark of night we had to get in a black car, you know, in the desert. Okay. Like they got into a chauffeur driven limousine and were taken to this stunning multimillion dollar mansion in the hills with an Olympic sized swimming pool. They were fine. They were better off in that other location than being on such a busy road where the media could obviously go. The media is a blessing in a case like this. That yes, there's some downside but net. Net. It's not, it's not even 50, 50 blessing curse. They're a Blessing. Every family with a missing person out there would pray to God to have the kind of media coverage that this case has gotten. They would pray to God. So you can't complain about the media, which is your best friend. Here's the last thing I want to end on. This was the one that actually moved me the most. And she talked about the one. The one conversation in which she actually. Of her life, she said, in which she actually heard from God. Like she actually heard him speak. And here it is in Sat 12.
- [84:20]
Savannah Guthrie
Early on felt that I heard one of the very few times in my life I did hear God speak to me. As I said to myself, I can handle anything. God. I can handle anything. I just can't handle not knowing. We can't handle not knowing.
- [84:48]
James Hamilton
Yeah.
- [84:49]
Savannah Guthrie
I have to know. And I heard a voice, And it said, you do know where she is. She's with me. She's with me. So whether she is on this earth still or whether she is in heaven, I know where she is. I know who she's with. But we need to know.
- [85:34]
Megyn Kelly
That's awful. That's like. That really brings home what the family's been going through and the horrors of this crime. You guys having heard everything at this point, you know, about 60 days in, do you think we will ever have answers? Are we actually going to find Nancy Guthrie? Pat?
- [85:55]
Pat Brosnan
I don't know. This is. I. I don't know.
- [85:58]
James Hamilton
But.
- [85:59]
Pat Brosnan
But what I do believe, Omega, is that Savannah wasn't speaking to the offenders. She was speaking to the circle around him. And I've maintained this for a while, not just with the 41 second video, but everything else surrounding the fact that there are people who know that walk. There are people who know that movement, that someone cuts his hair. Someone serves Starbucks to that guy. Someone does the dry cleaning for this guy. It's very clear to me that the mask actually revealed him, more than concealed him to the extent that his mustache line, his eyes set. All the things that happened when he turned 360. I believe that dozens and dozens and dozens of people know precisely who that is. But this started off on the wrong foot. It was a $2,500 ransom, which is a direct insult to snitches around the world.
- [86:53]
Megyn Kelly
Reward.
- [86:54]
Pat Brosnan
You've got to be kidding. Reward beyond horrific. Beyond horrific. Didn't move the needle. I had snitches. You got to pay them. That's the way it works. Don't know the answer. I have my own theory. I. I don't really like to publicly articulate it for Bad karma relating to whether she's alive or not. But the reality is we may never know because those dozens of people are hesitating to pick up their phone and call, even with a million bucks lying in the balance. So either this is an extremely dangerous person, that maybe it's not worth getting your throat slit at a later date for the buckaroos. I don't know. Beyond confounding, nothing, bottom line, nothing adds up. Nothing.
- [87:43]
Megyn Kelly
What do you say, Randy?
- [87:45]
Randy Sutton
Well, I want to go back just for a second to the sheriff. And I don't know if you're aware of this, but he is currently under investigation. Currently under investigation for election interference by the Attorney General for his conduct during the last election when he was elected. And also the vote of no confidence by way of perspective that came before this investigation. The sheriff's, the deputy sheriff's union voted that no confidence vote before this, this investigation took place. Which gives you the reality of the, the morale within that agency and, and the, and the distinct lack of respect that the, that the, that the working cops actually have in that sheriff. So that just gives you a little more perspective. He's currently under investigation. I have all the details on that.
- [88:41]
Megyn Kelly
Would suggest to me you do not have high hopes for finding Nancy.
- [88:45]
Randy Sutton
I don't know. I'm going to be less circumspect than Pat. I believe that this is a homicide. I believe that there is a strong possibility that there were cartel people involved in this, that this was farmed out to them and that's why they're not in the DNA database. I, I have my doubts that, that this will ever come to a successful conclusion as for an investigation.
- [89:11]
Megyn Kelly
And why do you think they did it, Randy, in this theory?
- [89:15]
Randy Sutton
Well, what are the, what are the motivating factors for these type of situations? Greed, lust, money, hate, revenge. It's one of them.
- [89:31]
Megyn Kelly
How about you, James? You think we're going to find her?
- [89:34]
James Hamilton
No, I think it's going to be like one. A number of these cases I've worked where, you know, it, this happens. The longer this goes and you have nothing and you have no leads and you have no person of interest and no interviews are being conducted. The longer this goes on, this could be a, you know, situation where, you know, we'll talk about this for 20 years. Whatever happened to her, you know, I've seen it. I've seen it happen. I can name the cases and it's tragic and it's terrible, but that's what I get the feeling, you know, we don't have it. We should have things. This is 2026. There are things we should have right now that we do not have in this case. And the longer this goes, the less and less, you know, optimistic I am.
- [90:16]
Rod Blagojevich
There's.
- [90:17]
Randy Sutton
There's one other. There's one other piece of information I forgot to give you, Megan. And this is very recent. This is very recent from my sources. That. That massive investigation where there were, you know, hundreds of investigators working on it has now dwindled to a task force of five people.
- [90:36]
Megyn Kelly
It was bound to happen. There's no way they could keep that kind of manpower on it. But it's very disturbing that while they had that manpower, they got us to a place where there appear to be no suspects. That's another thing Chad Ayers was told by his rock solid source. Boots on the ground, no suspects. None. I mean, that's. That's not great. Seven weeks in, least in Brian Kohlberger, when we were ripping on the Idaho police officers, we as like, what's going on? They haven't told us anything. They. They had Brian Kohlberger. We just didn't know it. They were surveilling him. They were following him back to his home in the Poconos. They were getting a warrant to go into his home right before Christmas. Here. The. The reporting is they have no suspects. It's not even like they're narrowing in on the guy. None. None of that is good. And you can feel the families.
- [91:22]
Pat Brosnan
You know what's amazing?
- [91:23]
Megyn Kelly
Thanks so much.
- [91:24]
Pat Brosnan
Thank you. And James pointed out, and I'll leave on this final note, I kind of promise we should have a lot more. This is not 1996. I could not agree more. I won't get into the litany of investigative tools and the litany of data and the tsunami of intel and information, and there's nothing. Nothing. It's beyond bizarre. It's like a ghost came in and a ghost vanished. And we know there's not ghosts, but this is a. This is strangest case I've. I've ever personally, you know, I want to say investigated from, you know, third party, but it's unbelievable. So I concur. There's so much we should have, and we have nothing. Zip, zip, zip, zip, zilch. Not up.
- [92:05]
Megyn Kelly
That. That ghost comment gave me a chill. I don't know. That's like. That was eerie, right? It is like that. I mean, we saw the ghost on the front steps of her porch. But you're right. Somehow he did vanish, and Nancy along with him. Guys, lots of Love so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you all for. Thank you for being here. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. James, I'm calling you, calling you for your. Your kidnapping protocol. As much as my mother's foundation may protect her from looking bad anytime, you know it.
- [92:31]
James Hamilton
Take care there.
- [92:33]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, there's more in place just. Just to any bad guys out there. There is more in place, but that was our original plan. So more of this Savannah interview is going to air on the Today show tomorrow. It's amazing. They. They broke it up into two parts. The first hour, a second hour today. Now there's another part, part three, that's going to air tomorrow. Plus they're turning it into a dateline. I'm like, like, you can't. They're gonna milk it for all it's worth over there. That's why they kept Hoda's mic up. That's why she behaved the way. Like this is theater for some people involved. It's not theater for Savannah Guthrie or any of the Guthrie's. And my heart goes out to them. The other thing that was interesting was Carson Daly at the end of the piece on the set confessed that none of them has been in contact with Savannah throughout this entire thing. Haven't I been telling you? I mean, no one's been talking to her. Great. But it's one big happy family there that. It's a one big habit. Trust us. And also continue to tune into the Today show every morning between 7 and 9am on NBC. I mean, that's what you're looking at from the cynical network bosses. Not talking about Savannah here who is genuinely in need of our help. All right, coming up next, former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich on what he thinks the Illinois officials may be doing with respect to this illegal who killed poor Sheridan Gorman. That's next. Think about this. In 2006, $20,000 equaled roughly 33 ounces of gold at spots price. At today's prices, those 33 ounces would be worth about 165,000 bucks. That's why many smart Americans diversify a portion of their savings into precious metals. And that's why you should consider buying gold from Birch Gold Group. For thousands of years, gold has been a store of wealth. And today it's a crucial part of any balanced strategy. Even better, Birch Gold can help you convert an existing IRA or 401k into a tax sheltered retirement account. Account in gold. Just text MK to the number 989898 to receive your free info kit on gold. There's no obligation, just useful information with an A rating with the Better Business Bureau and tens of thousands of happy customers. Let Birch Gold help you diversify with Gold. Now that's peace of mind again. Text MK to 989-898 today the family of Sheridan Gorman Sheridan is responding to the Democrats who continue to downplay her horrific murder. 25 year old Venezuelan illegal immigrant Jose Medina allegedly shot 18 year old Sheridan in the back last Thursday as she fled after he emerged masked and dressed in all black on a pier. She was out to see the northern lights, her family says, with her friends. And Sheridan, who tried to get away from this maniac, was shot in the in the back and then pronounced dead at the scene. Chicago's radical leftist mayor Brandon Johnson refused to apologize to the Gorman family and called her murder, quote, just senseless violence. The Gorman family responding with quote, the following. What happened to Sheridan cannot be reduced to a senseless tragedy, nor can it be explained in general terms about public safety. Sheridan was our daughter. She was 18 years old. She was doing something entirely normal, walking near her campus with friends. She should be here. Calling this senseless is not enough. There must be a clear and honest accounting of what went wrong. We will not allow Sheridan's life to be reduced to a talking point or a generalization. We expect leadership that is willing to confront hard truths and ensure that what happened to her does not happen again. In reaction to Governor JB Pritzker's ex post calling the murder a tragedy without mentioning the suspect's immigration status, the Gorman family responded again writing quote, Sheridan's death cannot be reduced to a general tragedy, nor can it be explained away by broad references to failures somewhere else. Sheridan was a daughter, a sister and a young woman whose life was taken away that should never have been possible. We're not interested in political arguments or in watching responsibility shift from one place to another. If there were failures, as the governor himself has acknowledged, then every one of them must be identified, examined and addressed directly. The location of those failures matters less than the willingness to confront them honestly. Our daughter is not a policy debate. She is a life that was taken and that demands accountability. And now a photo has emerged online which some speculate shows Medina. It looks exactly like him to us. Holding up a gang sign for listening audience. It's like he's got the four fingers of his left hand showing and the ring finger is bent in half so it's like the pinkies standing out. Then the ring fingers bent in half and then the middle finger and the index finger are showing. And that's apparently a gang sign, which has led to a lot of questions about who this guy is and what he was really doing on the pier that night. Now he's due back in court tomorrow after missing his detention hearing Monday, reportedly because he's been hospitalized with tuberculosis. A former governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich, wrote the following on X. Sheridan Gorman's killer is being held in isolation. I suspect Pritzker and the Dems are hiding him to cover up the fact that this illegal immigrant killed an innocent young girl as part of a gang initiation. I know gang banger, gang bangers and how they operate. I lived with them for eight years and I know Pritzker and the Dems. Bet you I'm right. Blagojevich there referencing the time he spent in federal prison on corruption charges before being pardoned by President Trump. He came on this show after all that and we had a fascinating discussion about it. The former governor joins me now. His new book, famed Effed and A Governor's Odyssey is out in August and available for pre order now. Great to see you Rod. Thanks for coming back on. Please come on when your book hits too and we can talk all about it. But why do you think that this might have been a gang initiation?
- [98:50]
Rod Blagojevich
Well, I'm almost completely convinced that it was. I know this subject all too well because of my unhappy experiences. 2,896 days in prison, sheltering place with Crips and Bloods, gangster disciples, Sinaloa cartel drug dealers who look up to the gang lord El Chapo like my daughters look up to Taylor Swift. I was in prison for the first three years with men who committed murder. So I have an unhappy experience living with those guys and knowing how they operate. And gang initiations are very much a part of the gangs, not only in prison but in real life. So I have frankly little or no doubt that what happened here was that, I mean, the facts suggested the group of kids were running away from this guy who appeared, he was dressed all in black and then he decided to shoot poor Sheridan in the back. I think it hit her in the back of the neck. It had to be because he had to prove himself to the gang he was trying to join. And one of the most disgusting parts of the story is the fact that he should have never been here in the first place. He's among the hundreds of thousands of criminal illegal aliens who broke into our country illegally. He was also in custody a couple of years before for shoplifting. But the no bail laws that the Democrats Love let him out. And there can be no other motive for doing something like that. So based on all of the facts and circumstances that we know, my own life experience, I'm perfectly convinced that this was a gang initiation. The only explanation for him shooting her and killing her and not shooting at anybody else.
- [100:26]
Megyn Kelly
Right, because it seemed like he targeted her. But there was no explanation for why. Like there wasn't an altercation. There was as far as we know, not an attempted like sexual assault or anything like that. He just got his eyes on her.
- [100:42]
Savannah Guthrie
She.
- [100:43]
Megyn Kelly
She sensed danger. He had a gun. He had a black mask on. She ran and her friends ran too and he shot her in the back. I mean. So you're, you're, you're citing the determination to take a life on his part as evidence that, that that in and of itself had purchased for him.
- [100:59]
Rod Blagojevich
That's exactly right. He was instructed by the gang he wanted to join to do that and kill somebody. I saw it in prison. These guys would. The Latino gangs in particular. These guys, the new inmates would be required to do certain things in violation of the rules to prove themselves to their. Their car, which is the gang word in prison. And the politics of this. I know because I was a democratic government.
- [101:20]
Megyn Kelly
Well, wait. Stand by, stand by. I want to talk all about that. Forgive me, but we're at a time on the Sirius xm. Okay, one o' clock hour, but we're gonna pick back up on the two o' clock hour in five seconds. We take a quick break. We'd be right back with the governor. Let's be honest. America can still be a dangerous place. And you cannot afford to wait for help when you need it. Sure, you could use a firearm, but in today's America, defending yourself with deadly force could have legal consequences. According to FBI data, 99.9% of all altercations do not require lethal force. And that's exactly why many are turning to Burna. Burna is proudly American hand. Assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana, these less lethal self defense launchers are trusted by hundreds of government agencies, law enforcement departments and private security companies. Over 600,000 Burna pistols have been sold. Most to private citizens who refuse to be victims. Burna launchers fire rock hard kinetic rounds and powerful tear gas and pepper projectiles capable of stopping a threat from up to 60ft away. No background checks, no waiting periods and Byrna can ship straight to your door. Take responsibility, protect your future. Visit byrna.com right now or your local sportsman's warehouse. That's by r n a.com or your local Sportsman's Warehouse. Visit now and be prepared to defend. Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard. That's why Pandora makes it easy to explore all your favorites and discover new artists and genres you'll love. Enjoy a personalized listening experience simply by selecting any song or album and we'll make a station crafted just for you. Best of all, you can listen for free.
- [102:58]
Pat Brosnan
Download Pandora on the Apple App Store
- [103:00]
Megyn Kelly
or Google Play and start hearing the
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Randy Sutton
soundtrack to your life.
- [103:03]
Megyn Kelly
There are countless reasons to learn a new language, whether you have an upcoming trip planned or you simply want to learn a new skill. Rosetta Stone breaks down your new language into bite sized pieces and focuses on speaking practice for real conversations. Rosetta Stone's True Accent feature even helps you perfect your pronunciation. I mean pronunciation. Visit RosettaStone.com today. Rosetta Stone How Languages Learned hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on Sirius xm. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered, with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly show, you're gonna hear from people like Mark Halperin, link Lauren Maureen Callahan, Emily jasinsky, Jesse Kelly, RealClearPolitics and more. Many more.
- [103:52]
Savannah Guthrie
It's bold.
- [103:53]
Megyn Kelly
No BS news only on the Megan Kelly Channel, SiriusXM 111 and on the SiriusXM app. Former Illinois Governor Rod Blovich is back with me now. We are discussing the murder of Sheridan Gorman and why the former governor believes that this illegal immigrant who is accused of killing her may have done so as part of a gang initiation. So you're saying in prison, did you, did you just have to commit a crime in order to join a gang or go so far as to commit a murder?
- [104:27]
Rod Blagojevich
No, no. I never saw anybody get murdered as part of a gang initiation in prison. But I saw several instances over those unhappy nearly eight years of some of the gang banger inmates who had to they had to become part of the larger gang and they had to prove themselves to be part of the group and they were required to go out and do certain things. They were against the rules. Whether they were crimes or not really didn't matter. Whatever the prison rules were, they were instructed to go break them. It could have been, for example, get the first kick in against another inmate part who was part of the group who had done something outside of the, you know, the gang's requirements. They would do this thing called Group justice, where they would get all gathered together and each member of the group would strike a blow against the fallen, misbehaved gang banger. So this kind of stuff is sort of tradition and culture, and it was very common there. And, you know, I grew up in a rough and tough neighborhood when I was a kid growing up, so I wasn't exactly immune to how street gangs operated either. And what I see with this particular case is, cries out to me that it was. It had to be a gang initiation. What other motivate motivation did this guy have to kill that poor innocent girl like he did, where he did, dressed as he was? And the fact now that they're keeping him in hiding, which I really believe they're doing, would suggest that they know exactly what the motivation was. That's why they're. They haven't.
- [105:58]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, now explain that, because what we've been told is he missed his first. His first court appearance because he has tuberculosis, and he was hospitalized and is reportedly being kept in isolation in any event, in the prison. So why is that suspicious to you?
- [106:14]
Rod Blagojevich
Well, I believe the Democratic Governor Pritzker said the word down that they wanted to not change the narrative that the Democrats have had when it comes to illegal immigrants, because what this does is it blows up the narrative. And what it does is it shows that everything President Trump's been about and what he's been trying to do to rid our communities of criminal, illegal immigrants is very real, and that they are here committing very real crimes like killing innocent young girls. This goes against their narrative, and it goes against the narrative, not just of Governor Pritzker or Mayor Johnson, but against the entire Democratic Party today. And it's among the reasons why, I
- [106:50]
Megyn Kelly
think that how would keeping him in isolation you solve this problem?
- [106:55]
Rod Blagojevich
Well, I think the isolation is the holding pattern until the smoke settles, and they can get past this being front page news and just basically bury it under the rug or hide it in the closet. That's what I very much believe. And I do know that Democratic judges here in Cook county are susceptible to sometimes getting the word from on high and making decisions outside of what is right or wrong.
- [107:22]
Megyn Kelly
Is there a possibility of if he's a gang member and he gets, you know, thrown in prison pending a trial or obviously in here, I think it would just be the arraignment that he could be in danger from other gang members worried he might squeal or, you know, is that, Is that a thing?
- [107:38]
Rod Blagojevich
That is a thing. And you're asking a very good question. Yes, of Course that's a thing. And I saw that happen too during those eight years where from time to time somebody who was a snitch, the mantra in prison is snitches are bitches who get stitches. They would be punished for doing that. And I, even crazy, was told a story about someone who'd been murdered in the prison I was in when I first got there only two weeks before because that guy had been the recipient of a hit that came out from the Sinaloa cartel drugs. Because that guy was going to be a, I guess testimon testify against some of the activities of the Sinaloa cartel drugs, drug dealers. So no, I think all of this fits in with that experience that I had the narrative, because the other side of it is that this was just some random killing and he decided to just shoot some innocent person and nobody
- [108:30]
Megyn Kelly
else when with only a shoplifting crime on his record. Not, not a violent past, at least not here in America that we know of. So yeah, he went from 0 to 60 right fast. But you're right, if you add in the gang element, maybe it makes more sense. And then we see this picture of him. This was posted on X by a site that goes by more M O O R Real News. They have no website, they only post to X. And this is the only post about Medina. It reads as follows. Jose Medina Medina. They purport that the date of this photo is June 11, 2023. Picture taken outside of the Leon Park Beach, 1222 West Touchy Avenue, Chicago, Illinois, where the city of Chicago and alder woman Maria Haddon housed Jose as suggesting he lived on public assistance 200ft from where Sheridan Gorman was murdered. And so this is what all they posted him in what we believe is a gang sign. And we actually just did a little research on this per a handbook for the Institute of Police, which is based out of Florida. They recognize this thing he's doing with his hand as a gang sign. It stands for Insane Vice Lords, which actually makes sense because the pinky looks like an I and then you've got the other two fingers looking like a, like a V. And I suppose the index finger and the thumb could be an L. Insane Vice Lords, they're called that or they're called the Almighty Vice Lords Nation. The Department of Justice says that this enterprise began in Chicago, which is still considered its headquarters has a bunch of different like divisions now. They became one of Chicago's largest and most influential street gangs, heavily tied to narcotics. And per a 2015 handbook from the Florida Department of Corrections. They write that members often have tattoos either on their hand below the thumb to identify themselves or as a protective mechanism for members facing possible jail time. We don't see a tattoo here. Oh, we do on. On Medina. Where is it? Oh, we do see one right below his thumb. Oh, my God. Yeah, we do see one. Dang. Yeah. We didn't see it in the hand making the gang sign, but we do see it in his right hand holding a phone and decked out in bling. And his other hand is decked out and bling, too. He appears to be wearing what's probably a fake Rolex. I don't know what he's wearing, but he's blinged out. He's got the hoodie sweatshirt on. He's got the Michael Jordan cap. That's a thing. The Michael Jordan cap. Michael Jordan clothing. We saw this with what's his name over in Maryland. Maryland, man. Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And he's with another guy wearing a hoodie, a red hoodie next to him. So there. There's some circumstantial evidence, Gov, that maybe this guy is in a gang. He got here in 2023 and promptly joined a gang. Great job. Great job. Joe Biden.
- [111:33]
Rod Blagojevich
Really sickening is the fact that he's been protected by the Democratic Party. He and others like him. They have become the priority of the today's Democratic Party. Governor Pritzker has gone to war with the President, United States to protect guys like him. And they don't want to change the narrative. That's why I firmly believe they're doing what they can to try to keep this low, keep them hidden, and not allow the narrative that's truthful to come out. What's interesting, Megan, is Loyola University, and I know this area real well because I live actually not that far away. My daughters have walked on that beach. But Loyola University has a student newspaper, and they came out today with an apology, essentially an apology. Apologizing that he was referred to Jose Medina. Medina was referred to for what he is an illegal immigrant. And they apologized for the use of the phrase illegal immigrant. They didn't express any condolences to Sheridan Gordman or her family. It was just trying to, I guess, make it right with the immigrant activist community that has become part now of the mainstream of the Democrat Party. And they don't want any narrative that goes against how they're trying to describe the circumstances of. All these people came to America in violation of the law. Now, 10 to 15% of them best Estimates, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, are criminals. All the others have come here, they broke the law. They're probably not criminals. They're trying to work to make a better life for themselves. But whether they're criminals or not, they came here illegally. And if we're going to be a country that respects the rule of law, well, I mean, we have responsibilities to, you know, enforce that law. The Democrats have decided to block the enforcement of that law for their political agenda. And this guy is now caught up in that political game that the Democrats are playing.
- [113:23]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, I guess we'll find out, because if he was in a gang in 2023, then he probably wasn't doing a gang initiation in 2026. But there is some circumstantial evidence here that the guy was flirting with the gang life, possibly in gang life. And in the absence of any other motive on this horrific crime, which makes no sense sense, you've got to at least go there. You have to investigate it. And here's the thing, as Julie Kelly, who's done great, great reporting on the federal judges and what they're doing to President Trump's agenda and in particular, how they tried to stymie his attempt to get out Venezuelan. That's what this guy is. Venezuelan gang members and Judge Boasberg in Washington, D.C. issuing a national injunction stopping it. She tweeted out the following. She wrote, she finds the tuberculosis, tuberculosis, isolation suspicious. And she says, this photo that we're showing you, if it's him, could raise the possibility that Sheridan's execution was part of a gang initiation. She writes, if this animal is Trenda Aragua, God help every single activist group and judge, starting with Jeb Boasberg, who blocked his deportation because, remember, Trump tried to get all Trenda Aragua out of the country and back to Venezuela in one fell swoop. And Boasberg stopped it. And she pointed out, we've I want to talk to you about Democrat politicians for sure, including Pritzker and Brandon Johnson, the mayor. But let me just play you this Julie Kelly sound bite. She went on with our pals Real Clear Politics, great podcast, and precedes my own show here on the MK channel on Sirius XM channel 111. And she made a great point about how the judges, too, are complicit in allowing these Venezuelan illegal gang members to stay in our country. Whether this guy is one or not, they have permitted people just like him to stay here with impunity. Listen to her. One other party that I think is very culpable in all of this are federal judges. Think about what's happening in Washington, D.C. with Chief Judge Jeb Bosberg, who basically was the first judge to put a hold, to put a brick on the President's Alien Enemies act proclamation that authorized the immediate removal of Venezuelans, illegal Venezuelans who were here who were tied to Trend. Not only did Jeb Bosberg put a whole hold on that policy, that then manifested nationwide. To add to that, Jeb Bosberg is still, and this case is still pending, trying to order the Trump administration to fly these 137 illegal Venezuelans, men who were then sent to El Salvador, then to their home country of Venezuelan to return them to the United States. Still now, a year later, the Supreme Court punted on this. We're still waiting for a final ruling. But when you have judges and even the Supreme Court sort of look the other way as the President and his administration are trying to remove the most dangerous criminals who cross the border illegally during the Biden administration, what does that signal to the illegals who were there? It's such a good point, Rod.
- [116:52]
Rod Blagojevich
Look, let me firmly assert, to borrow from Franklin Roosevelt, Jose Medina. Medina is a gang banger. Let me also firmly assert that the chances are that he's a member of Trend Aragua are extremely good. And the most compelling evidence to suggest that, to me, is how the Democrats are treating this particular heinous crime against this poor, innocent young girl because of the fact that that goes against everything they've been saying with regard to illegal immigration and proves everything that President Trump's been saying. That's what I really believe is happening. And I think Pritzker made the phone calls, you know, to the judges and whoever else is necessary, the prosecutors, to do what they can to try to keep this quiet and not let the truth.
- [117:33]
Megyn Kelly
Well, let me. Let me add another element to it right now, because J.B. pritzker wants to be president. He wants the nomination, and he wants the top job. This could completely sink his chances. This truly could be the death knell to his presidential campaign. He rejected President Trump's offer of help to try to get the illegals out of Illinois. Even before the Minneapolis riots and all that. Trump went to him and said, I want to send ICE in to help you with your illegal, illegal immigration problem. And he wrapped himself in the flag and tried to pretend it was the patriotic thing to do, to refuse that help and to instead protect the illegals, including Jose Medina. Medina. Here is what Governor Pritzker said. It's like a little montage, I think about Trump when Trump was making that offer and actually trying to insist that he be allowed to clean up the streets of the illegals. Here's what Pritzker said.
- [118:39]
Pat Brosnan
What President Trump is doing is unprecedented and unwarranted.
- [118:44]
Randy Sutton
It is unconstitutional.
- [118:46]
Megyn Kelly
It is un American.
- [118:48]
Pat Brosnan
Find a family who's enjoying today sitting
- [118:52]
Randy Sutton
on their front porch and ask if they want their neighborhoods turned into a
- [118:57]
Pat Brosnan
war zone by a wannabe dictator. Our small businesses suffer when our residents and visitors who are shopping and eating
- [119:03]
Megyn Kelly
are made to feel unsafe by the
- [119:06]
Pat Brosnan
jackbooted thugs roaming around a peaceful downtown.
- [119:09]
Megyn Kelly
Make sure that you understand that the
- [119:12]
Pat Brosnan
ICE officials don't have a right to
- [119:13]
Megyn Kelly
knock down doors and to take people away. We're thinking of you and doing everything
- [119:18]
James Hamilton
we can to protect you.
- [119:19]
Megyn Kelly
So this is dangerous. They shouldn't be doing it.
- [119:21]
James Hamilton
It's anti American.
- [119:22]
Megyn Kelly
It's un American. It's an attack on the American, American people by the President of the United States.
- [119:27]
Pat Brosnan
It's like it's become some sort of
- [119:29]
Randy Sutton
secret police force for Donald Trump.
- [119:31]
Pat Brosnan
I'm saying we don't want troops on the streets of American cities.
- [119:35]
Megyn Kelly
That's un American. Eight months later, Sheridan Gorman was gunned down by an illegal from Venezuela, who, for all we know, might have been caught by Tom Homan's guys had they been allowed to get rid of the illegals prowling the streets. This you can. The campaign ad writes itself. You're a politician. Can't you see it? This is very dangerous for J.B. pritzker,
- [120:01]
Rod Blagojevich
and that's the motivation to do everything can to cover this up. And then look at his behavior in the immediate wake of this murder. He didn't say anything for four days. It was. It wasn't until, you know, the pressure was on. People had noticed he hadn't said anything, that he actually had a spokesperson put out a statement. He didn't even say it. Brandon Johnson, same thing. They were just hoping it would kind of go away and not become a political issue that now it has correctly become. Because this really highlights the question, is it about public safety first? Is that the responsibility of governors and mayors and presidents, or is it about protecting gang bangers and gang bangers from other countries who broke into our country illegally? That's the issue. And the Democrats have sided with the latter. Trump has decided with the former. We have laws. Enforce those laws and execute those laws. But Pritzker has spent his entire second term using all of his resources and energy to try to make himself a viable presidential candidate on the backs of public safety of law, abiding citizens, including this poor young girl. And you're right, it's all about his campaign now. And if this blows up on him, he's then on arrival. But I must say, Megan, I know him real well. He used to work for me. He's not going to be president even if this doesn't blow up on him.
- [121:16]
Megyn Kelly
Why?
- [121:18]
Rod Blagojevich
Well, because he's, he's flawed in so many ways now. He's, you know, he's been dropping weight. I know you know that he's doing a zombie.
- [121:25]
Megyn Kelly
He's totally on Ozempic. It's obvious.
- [121:26]
Rod Blagojevich
There's no question about he won't admit it. Claims he's walking five miles a day. I've eaten lunch with this guy.
- [121:31]
Megyn Kelly
Sure. And you know, let me guess, it's his, it's his clean water regimen,
- [121:37]
Rod Blagojevich
right? Anyway, I shouldn't make fun of him personally. I mean what he ought to do is make ad throws out because it clearly works. But what he shouldn't be is our president. He shouldn't be our governor. And it's a disgrace what they're doing. And I shouldn't joke about this because we lost a young life. I think about those parents. I have two young daughters myself. We can all who are parents sort of walk in their shoes and understand what they're going through and pray that God has a warm loving place for her nearer to him. But this should have never happened. It should have never happened if they simply followed the law instead of playing politics. But Pritzker politicized this. Brandon Johnson politicized this. The Democrats have politicized this. And now I think they've got a real political problem on their hands.
- [122:20]
Megyn Kelly
Brandon Johnson continues just like Pritzker to blame Trump. It's like it's one thing to not take responsibility for your city and state policies, but to blame a president who is actively trying, who has actively tried to put ICE agents in your city and state in Chicago to clean it up of illegals, to turn the nerve of the gaslighting. That is like epic level. Here's Brandon Johnson on Tuesday. Know what the bigger threat to our public safety?
- [122:54]
Pat Brosnan
It's illegal weapons that are being trafficked from, from bordering states that voted for Donald Trump. This president refuses to be held accountable and he points the finger at everything
- [123:09]
Eric O'Neal
and everyone else versus doing some real
- [123:13]
Megyn Kelly
self reflection on what his responsibility is. So let's just stick with the word
- [123:18]
Pat Brosnan
that you like to use, illegal.
- [123:21]
Megyn Kelly
He has promulgated illegal wars. He is protecting states that are releasing
- [123:29]
Pat Brosnan
illegal weapons throughout the streets of America.
- [123:33]
Rod Blagojevich
Illegal tariffs.
- [123:35]
Megyn Kelly
If there is anything to address in this country that's illegal.
- [123:40]
Pat Brosnan
It's everything about the Trump administration
- [123:45]
Megyn Kelly
that's. It's just he tries to pivot. He doesn't want to take one bit of responsibility or even rod to apologize. He was asked yesterday we found the name of that great reporter who asked him a tough question about do you want to apologize to poor Sheridan Gorman's family for the policies that got her killed? And his name is William Kelly. No relation, but very proud of him. And he wouldn't. He just kept going, oh, it's just senseless violence. Gun violence. Senseless gun violence. And Trump's fault. I mean, par for the course a day ending in why for Democrats in Chicago? No.
- [124:20]
Rod Blagojevich
Well, we have a. The local alder woman from that neighborhood said he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Chicago she Sheridan was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Chicago sometimes did a head of headline saying the same thing. This is all the Democrat narrative. And it's interesting too, because it's not uncommon for politicians when they're, you know, facing something that they did really wrong or failed in their duty, which is the case with Johnson and Pritzker, to quickly pivot and point the blame at somebody else, which they're now doing. Let me point this out, Megan. Days before this killing, Pritzker had announced a commission that he's forming to investigate who ICE agents and law enforcement officials so that in the event that a Democrat's president in 2028, they're going to be held accountable for doing their jobs, enforcing the law to find illegal immigrants, many of whom are criminals, and kick them out of our country. So now this happened and it sort of steps on his storyline and just goes to show you where their priorities are. I can't even believe he's done that. These people are elected.
- [125:18]
Megyn Kelly
He is. No, he is toast. There is just no way the Democrats really want to win in 2028. They are really, really over the Trump presidency and the Trump legacy. And they're, they are not going to nominate somebody with this level of baggage on this issue. They need somebody who can go up there and make the case of the horrors in Minneapolis. ICE overreach. They're disgusting pigs. We hate them. And they do not want somebody who's going to be vulnerable to. Because you wouldn't let that horrible group come in and help the young women of Chicago. Sheridan Gorman is dead. They can't. He's done. The more I look at this story and see his on camera comments like the ones I played for you over and over there, there's a litany of them. The more I realize he's toast. He is toast and good, because we can't. We can't have more of him. And I don't like Brandon Johnson. I don't know what Chicago's doing. Right. But let me ask you about the sanctuary city policy, because I went. You, you left office in 2009. In. In 2017 is when Illinois became a sanctuary state. But Chicago did it back in 1985. So what did something change in the way, like, I lived in Chicago for five years between. I don't know, it was between 1995 and 2001 and it wasn't. It was. Chicago was wonderful back then. That was, you know, Mayor Daley, you could eat off the streets. It was like so clean. I don't remember a big problem of illegals. You know, there was Cabrini Green, which is where, like, most of the gang bangers lived. And that was away, kind of away from the sprawling downtown at Michigan Avenue. But, like, what is it with Chicago and now Illinois and the sanctuary status?
- [126:59]
Rod Blagojevich
Well, a lot of it, I gotta tell you, is about votes. I have to tell you, these illegal, Illegal immigrants are voting. They're not just voting in Chicago. I bet they're voting big time in California. Why else would these Democrats fight so hard for them to keep them in our country when it used to be the Democratic Party agreed that illegal immigrants should be deported? Look, I believe in the dreamers program, and I believe that hopefully the Republicans and Democrats can come together at some point and find a way to address the needs of these good people who came, you know, violated immigration laws and ought to stay. That's my personal belief. A lot of those dreamers actually serve in our military. They work and they're not criminals. But none of that's going to happen as long as our country is so divided on the immigration issues and the Democrats refuse to do anything to address all of the millions who came here. When Biden unlocked the door and let them all in, there's got to be like 15 million.
- [127:52]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, they would say, the Democrats would say they can't vote if they're not a citizen. Everyone has to provide proof of citizenship in order to get registered to vote. That's what they still claim, right?
- [128:04]
Rod Blagojevich
Well, it isn't true. And this is part of the motivation behind fighting so hard for these illegal immigrants. It's a voting block for them. And look, Obama and I came out of Chicago politics at the same time. This Wasn't back then what it is now when it comes to the number of illegal immigrants. But if you're asking me, do Democrats steal votes in places like Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit and Atlanta and big cities across the country, my answer is, is the Pope Catholic? Obama knows that. I know that. I think both of us won our elections irrespective of how many people were doing that on our behalf. But that's just how politics works in Chicago and works in big cities. And I know exactly where they do it. And they do it in low income areas where they control polling places. And they do it through what used to be absentee ballots, which became mail in ballots, which are absentee ballots on steroids. The fact that the Democrats refused to vote for the Save America act, show voter ID proof of citizenship, you know, all of these things tell you there's got to be a reason why. It's because they vote them and they vote the way they're told because they're unsophisticated voters and they can be controlled. And the Democrat Party, I used to be a member, I still consider myself a Trump, a crat Democrat for Trump. But the Democrat Party has really been about coalitions. And this is the new coalition of the Democrat Party, the new voting bloc, the new illegal immigrants.
- [129:26]
Megyn Kelly
How exactly would they do it? Because, you know, when you, if you want an absentee ballot, you do, at least where I live, you do have to send in, you know, your driver's license, something that would prove that you, that you, your driver's license doesn't necessarily prove that you're an American citizen. But in any event, how, like, how do they do it? How do they get the illegals ballots that they could fill out in the first place?
- [129:48]
Rod Blagojevich
Well, I mean, so they have organizations, these grassroots organizations that are immigrant rights groups and you know, they're active in the community, they work closely with the local Democratic political organizations and I believe they, you know, coordinate efforts to go vote as many people as they possibly can. And whatever the, you know, tactics or subterfuge they use, whether it's through a mail in ballot or an absentee ballot, or whether it's just there at the polling place and somebody shows up and is just voting somebody else's name who didn't show up, which is a not uncommon practice in places where Democrats control the whole polling place. The Republican judges in those polling places are really Democrats dressed up as Republicans just for appearance's sake. So there's several ways to do it. Back in the day when I was starting, even before I got into politics and I was a young lawyer. I'd worked as a prosecutor in the Cook County State Attorney's office for then Cook County State Attorney Richard Daly. He was my boss. There were like 800 of us. I was in the misdemeanor courts. I never met him until I actually got elected to office. But back then I was. After I'd left and gone into private practice and I met my wife. Her father was a Chicago ward boss and, you know, 50, 60% of his district, his ward was Latino voters. They were always very good to me and good to him, and we were very close to the Latino community and still are. But among the ways you can get votes was you'd have a guy, and I'm going to name him, he was a good guy, a political activist, the way it was in Chicago. He would go into the homes of immigrants and unregistered voters, get them registered, and then he would vote them absentee. But then he would gather and collect and bundle the absentee ballots and put them in a freezer. Because if you put them in a freezer and you freeze them once, you, you can look and see how the person voted. And if you don't like how they voted, you can spoil the ballot and go back and have them do it a second time. This is one example of one guy who's very active. He got indicted in Cook county and I was asked by my father in law to go represent him at a grand jury. And it turned out he wouldn't say. I told him, just don't say anything because that's a lawyer, you're a lawyer, you know this, don't say anything. And he took, literally took me, took my advice, wouldn't even say his name on the record. Nothing happened to him. But that was a practice back then. Just imagine what they're doing now with this whole block of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants who are here and are just going to do what the local community leaders are asking them to do because they're being helped in other ways. That's how I think they're doing it. And I believe it's happening largely in places like in sanctuary cities. And that's why they're being given sanctuary, which in my opinion seems to be so unconstitutional and so unlawful that you'd have a place that basically invites people from other countries that break into our country, come to our city and we'll protect you. That's the new Democratic Party today, that's what they're saying. And too many of These people who come are good people. Most of them are good people. They're coming for an opportunity to work. But they've been misled by the Democrats who've invited them in to come in. And they believe that they'll be protected in these sanctuary cities which they are. And then they won't be found out. But the American people have woken up and we have a problem that cannot be sustained. Because how can you possibly sustain 15 million people who came into our country illegally and burdened the taxpayers and then take resources away from people, Americans who truly need it, like underprivileged communities. The black community for example. The Democrats say they're poor but they're not.
- [133:23]
Megyn Kelly
I'm sorry if they're nice people. I'm sorry if a lot of them are nice people and just want a better life. If we have even one Sheridan Gorman. It's not worth it. It's not worth it. Like they come at too high a price because for every 10 you let in who just want to improve their lives you get a Jose Medina Medina. And the next thing you know poor Sheridan has nothing. Her future is ended. Her family will be hurting forever. And for what? For what? That's really the question you're asking? You have a theory for what? And it makes no. There's no redeeming value to what that man brought into the United States. None whatsoever. It's a wonderful thing to see you. I hope you come back on when you're. When your book hits in August.
- [134:02]
Rod Blagojevich
Thanks. I appreciate that. Look forward to it. It's nice to see you. It's been a couple of years hasn't it?
- [134:07]
Megyn Kelly
I know. Yeah. But I really enjoyed our talk when you got out of the pokey. So thanks for coming on and talking about it. We'll Steve, look up the episode number so we can tell them what that is. See you soon. Rod. There's a lot more to go on and I'm going to end the show now because I want to get to let Emily do the after show and folks can call in and so on. But I just want to tell you it's episode 274. If you want to listen to the long form interview between yours truly and Rod Blagojevich. It's really good. 274 it talks all about his life in prison and like did he join a gang? How did he stay protected and was he violated? We went there. We went everywhere and he was great. In New York City today there is a piece about an 83 year old veteran who was Shoved under the New York City subway tracks days ago. And he's just died from his injuries. An 83 year old US Air Force veteran randomly shoved onto the subway tracks by an illegal on the Upper east side. And now grandfather Richard Williams is dead. He succumbed to his injuries after being pushed by another man waiting for a train at the Lexington Avenue 63rd street station on March 8th. Just, you know, just FYI, whatever. Lex and 63rd is a very nice part of town. You know, it's, it's not like a sketchy part where you might think, oh, God, don't get down on the subway. No, it's like completely smack dab in the middle of the business districts. It's not far away from where Bernie Madoff used to have his offices. And this guy is standing, this 83 year old man who, who has fought in war for the United States of America. There are pictures of him, quite a few I've seen now of him wearing his dog tags. He was clearly really proud of his military service and he lived to tell about it, only to be killed by some thug illegal down in the. On the subway tracks. The alleged attacker was from Honduras. Look at this absolute scumbag. Byron Hernandez, 34. He was arrested March 10. His charge is now upgraded to murder now that poor Richard has died. And you can see video. The video does not show Byron. Actually, it does, but they haven't released this piece of it actually throwing Richard onto the tracks. But he does. And you can see that in the video. It shows him leering toward the tracks after shoving the victims. So you can sort of see here. Yeah, you can see there's the perpetrator, the accused perpetrator kind of lingering on the tracks after he has shoved Richard down on the tracks. And then another man he shoved, helped Richard get back up, get back up. So he lived through the attack, but as I say, died a couple of weeks later. Prosecutors had said that Williams, Richard Williams was brain dead. And his daughter Debbie told the New York Post he was not likely to pull through. They could see. And it's been declared a homicide. Of course, another man named John Pena was also shoved down to the tracks, age 30. And he's the one who heroically helped me pull Williams back on the platform. But to no avail. He's died. He has now died for what? Why, why do we have to deal with this guy? He, this guy Hernandez was a serial criminal. I mean, you knew this was coming. Serial criminal, lengthy rap sheet, at least 15 charges, including aggravated assault, possession of a weapon, domestic violence, and so on. According to to dhs, he had been deported from the United States four times but kept returning to the country illegally. Again per dhs. How many times do we have to have this story? How many times? That's Kate Steinle's murderers story too. Deported five times. Long rap sheet. We don't know. The guy you know accused of killing Sheridan was allegedly only arrested for shoplifting back in 2023. Didn't even show up. No penalty. It's fine. We let them in. We don't follow up on where they are. We let them commit crime with impunity. We don't in most of these jurisdictions cooperate with ICE to at least if not going to prosecute him, make sure he at least gets the boot out of the country. And we set them loose. We, we, we send out our young girls like lambs to the slaughter to be fucking slaughtered by these thug illegals. And then you have places like the student newspaper, as Rod pointed out the in on at Loyola, which is called the Loyola Loyola Phoenix writing articles apologizing for calling them illegal immigrants. I mean spend a day on the Megyn Kelly show. They're illegal thug pigs. That's what they are. Does that solve it for you Phoenix? Who the hell's worried about their feelings? Sheridan Gorman is dead and you're worried about hurting the feelings of this illegal. You're worried about offending him by calling him not even an illegal alien, but an illegal immigrant. But they, they write that no human's existence is illegal. And we quickly changed our wording to reflect that. It is a reference to one's immigration status, not to one's humanity. They know that it's more important to them to kowtow to the woke reading their woke low circulation newspaper to pat themselves on the back. You're part of the problem. They say, oh we took the headline down immediately. It didn't reflect the most important elements in the story. Took it down moments later to prevent any further harm to affected community members. Who you have a bunch of thug illegals in your community. No normal Hispanic person is going to be offended by the use of the word illegal. Is that what you mean? Hispanics? No, no normal Asian, no normal African is going to be offended by the term illegal. What are you assuming about the people reading your newspaper? They go on to say that language was provided by dhs, but it doesn't align with the Associated Press style nor with the values of this newspaper. We acknowledge the harm such language can cause in the power and importance of the words we choose to use. Yes, the words are important, but not in the way you think. We deeply regret these errors. Do you deeply regret the murder of Sheridan Gorman, your colleague on campus at Loyola? Where is your long piece? Apologizing to her family for these disputes, disgusting policies, and the woke like yourselves that enabled them. That's what you should be sorry about. There's just, like, don't. Don't go there. I. I'm thinking about a young girl, I know she's finishing now, but who got into some great law schools. Great law schools. And at the last minute, she got into the University of Chicago. And I said, you should go there. It's number one. It's amazing. Chicago's awesome. And thank God she's okay. But. But I just think now, if she were to ask me now, I'd say, you shouldn't go there. I did, even at the time, tell her it was dangerous. I mean, Chicago has gotten a lot more dangerous since I was there. Thanks to policies like these, Mayor Daley's no longer there. He was a Democrat, but he was a normal Democrat, you know, probably corrupt, but really good at his job and cared about things like crime and cleanliness. Now, I would not want my kids going there. Like, I'd be worried so sick. And I feel so bad for Sheridan's mom, Jessica, who I feel like I know. She was part of our Megan Kelly show community. She came to the tour, as I mentioned, and I. I'm sure she was thrilled. She got into Loyola, a Jesuit university, and thought, this will be great for her. She's a girl of faith. The family is, too. And you pray God to look over her. And we all, as parents, convince ourselves that that's going to work. We have to convince ourselves that that's gonna work. And when it doesn't, you have a reconciliation to work through. You know, you have a lot to work through. And I'm sure the family's going through that right now. Anyway, it's not just Chicago, is my point. This is New York. It's. It's happened in so many places. You know, Lake and Riley, that illegal. Came from New York, and they. We shipped him down to Georgia on the taxpayer dimension. It's every month we have some young woman or man, but often it's these young women cut short in the prime of their lives, thanks to these thugs who never should have been here. This guy should have been Venezuela's problem, not ours. Tomorrow we'll talk about this and much, much more when Jesse Kelly joins us. Hope you'll join us then. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda and no fear.
- [143:07]
Rod Blagojevich
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Megyn Kelly
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Megyn Kelly
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Rod Blagojevich
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