Megyn Kelly's FULL Interview with Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson - on the Truth About Biden Cover-Up and "Original Sin" Revelations

Summary

Summary of "The Megyn Kelly Show" Episode: Megyn Kelly's FULL Interview with Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson

Release Date: May 31, 2025

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Megyn Kelly Show on SiriusXM, host Megyn Kelly engages in a deep and provocative conversation with CNN's Jake Tapper and Axios's Alex Thompson regarding their newly released book, Original Sin: President Biden's Decline, Its Cover-Up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again. The book delves into President Joe Biden's cognitive decline during his tenure, the alleged efforts by Democratic officials and the media to obscure these issues, and the broader implications for American politics.

---

Overview of Original Sin

Marty Smith, co-author alongside Alex Thompson, explains the rationale behind the book's title Original Sin. According to Smith, the "original sin" refers to Biden's decision to seek reelection despite concerns about his cognitive health—a decision that, in their view, necessitated subsequent cover-ups and negative developments within his administration.

Marty Smith [08:38]: "It's called original sin because right after the election, we started talking to Democratic sources who were telling us how horrible things were, not just in front of the cameras and all those clips you showed, but how much worse it was actually behind the scenes."

---

Media's Role in the Cover-Up

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the media's complicity in downplaying or ignoring signs of Biden's cognitive decline. Tapper critiques legacy media outlets, including Marty's coverage, for failing to adequately investigate or report on these issues despite evident signs over several years.

Jake Tapper [16:25]: "You know as well as I do that there's a way of... you can say, hey, there's this poll on your age. Or you could say you just forgot that Jackie Walorski was dead. You asked where she was moments after watching a videotape tribute to her. You lowered the flags at the White House after she died. There is a way of pressing a man like that on the actual infirmities to bring it home to him and to the audience. And you didn't do it."

Smith acknowledges shortcomings in his past reporting, expressing humility and regret over not addressing Biden's age and cognitive issues more aggressively during interviews.

Marty Smith [17:58]: "I wish I could do differently... I wish I had covered the issues of age and acuity much more."

---

Evidence of Biden's Cognitive Decline

Tapper and Thompson present various instances illustrating Biden's apparent cognitive lapses, including public gaffes, forgetting names of key figures, and inconsistent memory during critical moments. They argue that these issues have been ongoing since 2015, intensifying after personal tragedies in Biden's life, such as the death of his son, Hunter Biden.

Jake Tapper [05:00]: "In his new book, Original Sin, co-authored with Axios's Alex Thompson, the pair document the behind the scenes panic among Democratic officials over Joe Biden's decline."

Smith and Thompson discuss testimonies from over 200 Democratic insiders who suggest that there were effectively "two Bidens"—one functioning and one not—highlighting a progressive deterioration in his cognitive abilities.

---

The "Polyburo" and Executive Decision-Making

The interview delves into the inner workings of Biden's administration, specifically the formation of a "polyburo" comprising key advisors who, according to the authors, exerted disproportionate influence over presidential decision-making. This group allegedly minimized Biden's direct involvement, thereby masking his declining cognitive health from both the public and higher-level officials.

Alex Thompson [45:16]: "The people that we're naming would be Mike Donnel and Steve Rachetti... they were known as a politburo, gray hairs, poobahs."

The authors identify key figures such as Mike Donilon, Steve Rachetti, Ron Klain, and Bruce Reed as central to this decision-making process, asserting that their control contributed to the concealment of Biden's declining health.

---

Reactions and Criticism

The episode highlights significant backlash faced by Tapper and Thompson, particularly from mainstream media and Democratic circles. Megyn Kelly questions the authors' credibility, pointing out what she perceives as biased reporting and a lack of follow-up on evident signs of Biden's health issues during interviews.

Megyn Kelly [12:11]: "But when you sat with him again, including one month after the Jackie Walorski thing, you didn't ask him about it."

Smith defends his past reporting while admitting deficiencies and expresses a desire for more transparent and thorough investigative journalism regarding presidential health.

---

Biden’s Late Announcement of Cancer Diagnosis

A critical moment in the discussion is Biden's recent announcement of a prostate cancer diagnosis, which some view as suspiciously timed amid the book's release. Tapper and Thompson suggest that the timing may not be coincidental, raising questions about transparency.

Alex Thompson [61:57]: "I can tell you that some people that worked for him felt very strange about the sudden timing of this."

The authors contend that this revelation underscores the need for ongoing scrutiny and transparency regarding presidential health.

---

Presidential Debate Performance

Smith recounts Biden's performance during a recent presidential debate, which included notable moments of cognitive lapse, such as losing his train of thought and making incoherent statements. These incidents are presented as evidence of his deteriorating cognitive state.

Marty Smith [53:57]: "I wrote, holy smokes. Now what I was thinking was, holy fuck. It was just shocking... the worst debate in the history of presidential debates going back to 1960."

The dramatic portrayal of Biden's debate performance serves to illustrate the severity of the cognitive decline discussed throughout the book.

---

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the interview concludes, Smith and Thompson emphasize the importance of their work in uncovering and reporting these critical issues. They advocate for greater media accountability and transparency in reporting on the health of national leaders.

Marty Smith [70:30]: "I think what we've learned in the last couple of days about President Biden's health... the difficulty of hard reporting and investigative journalism when it comes to health issues."

Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson defend the integrity of their reporting while acknowledging the contentious nature of their findings. The conversation ends on a note underscoring the necessity for honest and thorough journalism in safeguarding democratic processes.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Marty Smith [08:38]: "It's called original sin because right after the election, we started talking to Democratic sources who were telling us how horrible things were..."

• Jake Tapper [16:25]: "You know as well as I do that there's a way of... you can say, hey, there's this poll on your age... And you didn't do it."

• Alex Thompson [45:16]: "The people that we're naming would be Mike Donnel and Steve Rachetti..."

• Marty Smith [53:57]: "The worst debate in the history of presidential debates going back to 1960."

• Marty Smith [70:30]: "We should be very skeptical and we should also demand more from our leaders when it comes to health records."

---

Final Remarks

This episode of The Megyn Kelly Show presents a thorough examination of the allegations surrounding President Biden's cognitive health and the supposed efforts to obscure these facts. Through detailed discussion and critical questioning, Megyn Kelly facilitates a conversation that challenges both media practices and political accountability, offering listeners a nuanced perspective on one of the most pressing issues in contemporary American politics.

Transcript

[Jimmy Johnson]

This is Jimmy Johnson, host of Never Settle on the Sirius XM Podcast Network. I wanted to share with you that all summer long my co host Marty Smith and I will be chatting with some of our most successful friends. We want to share that 2.0 moment, the transitional moment that happens in all lives in addition to some of the different things that take place during the week from my career and my journey in life and also what Marty has going on as well. Check out Never Settle today on Sirius XM app or or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show.

[Marty Smith]

So you never miss an episode in the summer.

[Megyn Kelly]

All of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay like video lottery or cash pop helps support tons of parks projects statewide like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery Together we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.

[Jake Tapper]

Hey everyone, it's Megyn Kelly. Welcome to this special weekend bonus episode. Did you miss our viral interview with Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson last week on their new book Original Sin? If you did, you can catch the whole thing right here. Enjoy and we'll see you Monday with the EJ's. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show. Today, a deep dive into the decline of President Biden's cognitive health while in office, including never before heard stories from those very close to the President and a true reckoning about the media's role in the Democrat Party's attempted cover up. In minutes, I will be joined by CNN's Jake Tapper and Axios Alex Thompson regarding their new book. It's called Original President Biden's Decline, Its Cover up and His Disastrous Choice to run again. This will be their first long form interview. The book does include some shocking new details, including from some of Mr. Biden's own cabinet secretaries who said that by 2024 the president could no longer be relied upon for being able to perform at 2am if there were some sort of emergency. He was not able to answer that call. Another revelation from the book. A Source close to Mr. Biden said, quote, five people were running the country and Joe Biden was at best a senior member of the board. Who were those five people running the country and who exactly perpetrated this attempted cover up? We will ask for and receive names in just a moment, but first a look back at the President's decline that we reported on at the time. That was called nothing more than a conspiracy theory.

[Joe Biden]

We hold these truths to be self evident. All men and women created by Go. You know. You know the thing.

[Jake Tapper]

Signs of a slipping Joe Biden were everywhere, even in the run up to the 2020 election. For a politician long known for gaffes, this was something different concerning brain freezes. Like this one on CNN in April 2020.

[Joe Biden]

You know, there's a. During World War II, you know, Roosevelt came up with a thing that, you know, was totally different than a. Than the. He called the, you know, the World War II. He had the world. The War Production Board.

[Jake Tapper]

But raising questions about Mr. Biden's mental fit was risky. Just ask Lara Trump, who dared to go there in an interview with Jake Tapper weeks before the 2020 election.

[Lara Trump]

I think what we see on stage with Joe Biden, Jake, is very clearly a cognitive decline. That's what I'm referring to. It makes me uncomfortable.

[Marty Smith]

You are. No, it's so amazing to me that.

[Lara Trump]

Try and figure out an answer.

[Marty Smith]

A cognitive decline.

[Lara Trump]

You're trying to tell me that what I was suggesting was I think stuttering.

[Marty Smith]

His stutter. I think you were mocking his stutter and I think you have absol. No standing to diagnose somebody's cognitive decline.

[Jake Tapper]

Less than four and a half years later, it's Tapper doing the examining.

[Marty Smith]

Starting in around 2019, 2020, there were two Bidens. There was a Biden that was perfectly workable, serviceable seemed fine. And then there was a non functioning one.

[Jake Tapper]

In his new book, Original Sin, co authored with Axios's Alex Thompson, the pair document the behind the scenes panic among Democratic officials over Joe Biden's decline. Tapper claims he was on the case all along, but couldn't report fully until after the election when more people were finally willing to talk. But it was a story most Americans had already seen with their own eyes.

[Joe Biden]

The best way to get something done, if you. If it holds near and dear to you, that you like to be able to anyway.

[Jake Tapper]

Forgetting the names of world.

[Joe Biden]

Leaders I want to thank, that fell down under. Thank you very much, pal.

[Jake Tapper]

And then the moment that shocked even casual observers.

[Joe Biden]

Jackie, are you here? Where's Jackie?

[Jake Tapper]

Asking for Congresswoman Jackie Walorski, who had died in a car crash seven weeks earlier. The president had publicly mourned her death when it happened, even lowering White House flags in her honor. But he remembered none of it. Tapper did occasionally press White House officials.

[Marty Smith]

Watch him.

[Jake Tapper]

Right?

[Marty Smith]

Watch him.

[Megyn Kelly]

And he.

[Marty Smith]

I've, I've. They are watching him. That's what I'm saying. That's the 77% who are concerned.

[Jake Tapper]

No, no, no.

[Marty Smith]

It is hard for us to keep up with this president.

[Jake Tapper]

The same president who couldn't remember the name of Hamas.

[Joe Biden]

There's been a response from the opposition.

[Jake Tapper]

Then came the bombshell Hur special counsel report. Mr. Hur described President Biden as an elderly man with a poor memory who could not remember when he was vice president or the year his son Beau died. I think anybody sitting down for an interview like that where you're being asked specific dates over and over again, you're not going to remember every single one. In early June 2024, a Wall Street Journal story exposed concerns from members of Congress about a diminishing president.

[Marty Smith]

There's been a relentless focus in some news outlets on minor slips by our president that I frankly think are typical of anyone who's keeping a demanding 14 hour a day schedule.

[Jake Tapper]

A coordinated message claimed conservative media was deceptively editing clips in major areas where people get their news. This lie or this concept about Joe Biden is being validated. Fake videos of President Biden that are being referred to as cheap fakes.

[Alex Thompson]

They're cheap.

[Marty Smith]

They're just distorted out of context.

[Alex Thompson]

Videos chopped up in certain ways, constructed in certain ways.

[Marty Smith]

He's far beyond cogent. In fact, I think he's better than he's ever been.

[Jake Tapper]

Joining me now, Jake Tapper. He's the host of the Lead with Jake Tapper on CNN and Alex Thompson. Alex is a national political correspondent for Axios. These days, it feels like nothing surprises us anymore, but not in a good way. The headlines are heavy, the future feels uncertain, and so much is out of our control. But one thing you can take control of right now is your family's financial future with life insurance. Through select quote Whether you need 500,000 or 50 million in coverage, selectquote makes it easy to find the right policy for your unique needs. They have helped over 2 million people find more than 700 billion in coverage since 1985. And they do it fast, often in as little as 15 minutes. Other life insurance brokers might push generic overpriced plans, but selectquotes licensed agents work for you, not for the insurance companies. Even if you have a pre existing condition like high blood pressure or diabetes, Selectquote partners with carriers who can still offer coverage. And if you're healthy, you could get same day coverage with no medical exam required. So don't wait for another what if. Consider taking a step to secure your peace of mind. Get the right life insurance for you for [e-mail] Megan that's SelectQuote.com Megan SelectQuote they shop, you save. Guys, welcome to the show.

[Marty Smith]

Thanks, Megan.

[Alex Thompson]

Thanks so much for having us.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, great to have you. All right, first of all, Jake, explain why it's called original sin.

[Marty Smith]

It's called original sin because right after the election, we started talking to Democratic sources who were telling us how horrible things were, not just in front of the cameras and all those clips you showed, but how much worse it was actually behind the scenes. And one of them said to me that the original sin was that Biden should not have run for reelection to begin with, which then necessitated the COVID up of how bad things actually were. And that term, original sin, just stuck with me. When Alex and I talked about doing the book, I think the day before election day, I already thought Original Sin would be the perfect title because it just gets at how momentous a decision this way was, how momentous a mistake this was to run for reelection. And then of course, the COVID up.

[Jake Tapper]

Alex, we understand that you originally had drafted a book along these lines, but then the deal fell apart. So how did it get revived? When did publishers get interested in what you were trying to tell?

[Alex Thompson]

Well, my book project actually was different. I mean, it was a Biden book, but it was with Simon and Schuster. They signed the deal in January of 2021 and it was supposed to come out before the election. And, you know, maybe there was, there was maybe going to be some age stuff, but it was much more about the family dynamics and how they affected the president and the presidency. Ultimately, the book deal did fall apart. Simon Schuster canceled the book in October of 2023. There are a few reasons for that. One was I was running behind. Two Biden books were not selling well. And third, you know, there was a, honestly, like a difference of what sort of book we were, we wanted. And that was most manifest in sort of a debate or, you know, clash over the title of the book. And I wanted to call the book Haunted because the thesis of the book was he's haunted by his son Beau, he's haunted by the hunter stuff, by the Obama comparisons, by the idea Trump could win again. And they wanted to call the book Soul man. Or shadow boxer. And I said no and good hill to die on.

[Marty Smith]

I just keep.

[Alex Thompson]

It was an expensive hill to die on. So I returned the advance and then I obviously had some Biden reporting and I was interested in trying to revive some sort of project on Biden because I'd covered him for so long. And it was really, the book was Jake's idea about making it focused on this one issue of the Biden presidency.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, this is the issue. Okay, I got it. Let me keep going. Let's go right to the controversy around the book and then we'll get to the contents of the book, which I definitely want to spend time on. As you know, this book, it's right in the subtitle, it involves coverage of the so called cover up. But Jake, the criticism has been that you're complaining about a cover up about Joe Biden's mental acuity that failed. That right wing pundits saw, the right wing in general saw, that independent media saw and reported on. And that was no mystery even to left wing and so called mainstream reporters who were not fooled but chose willful blindness instead of honest reporting. And that you were part of it. How do you respond?

[Marty Smith]

It's a tough and fair question. I would say that Alex and I after Election Day interviewed more than 200 people, 200 mostly Democratic insiders in all these interviews, where almost all of these interviews were after the election. And they justified to themselves what they had done in terms of misrepresenting how the President was not just to me and Alex and other reporters, but also just to each other and to the world and to Democrats and to the Cabinet, et cetera, by saying that there was this existential threat of Donald Trump and only Joe Biden could beat Donald Trump. And that justified everything in their minds after that existential threat was over because the election was over and Donald Trump won. They were, we found Alex and myself remarkably willing to talk to us either off the record or on background or in some cases on the record about what they saw. One of the things that emerged was that there were two Bidens. One was the fine Biden, serviceable, adequate, and the other one was a non functioning Biden. And that's the one we saw the night of the debate. And that's the one we saw some clips of here and there that you just showed. And that non functioning Biden, the one that lost his train of thought in a significant way, not in the way just that every human loses their train of thought, but in a way that shows that he's having Trouble articulating his very views. And the one who forgot the name of close aides, who was not able to come up with George Clooney's name, didn't seem to recognize him, all that sort of thing. That non functioning Biden was, according to our reporting, showed up as far back as 2015 after the death of Beau, where one top aide said that that tragedy, the loss of Beau was like watching somebody pour water on sand. That was the effect on his psyche. And there were other moments. 2017, 2018, you hear some the her report. One of the reasons he came to that conclusion was because of the recordings they heard of Joe Biden in 2017 talking to his ghostwriter in which he was similarly inclined. Obviously in 2019, 2020, there were other moments like that. Most of his campaign staff and others would say, look, he's 78, he's 79, he has senior moments, but he's fine, he's fine, he's fine. Well, he wasn't fine. And throughout his presidency, that non functioning Biden would show up more and more and more and he was worse and worse and worse, really deteriorating tremendously. The next time there was a really horrible family incident, which was when Hunter Biden's plea deal fell apart in the summer of 2023. And then obviously in June he was convicted. And the thought, the fear of losing his son, not to jail, but maybe to another, to a relapse, to an overdose, to a suicide, who knows, was a very real fear. And the threat of losing a third child really just diminished him tremendously according to top aids. So all of which is to say that this was a deterioration, this was a progression. And look, knowing what I know now, obviously I feel tremendous humility about my coverage that Lara Trump interview, for example, etc. She saw some, she saw something that I did not see at the time, 100%. And I own that I did ask Joe Biden to be transparent about his health records in an interview in 2020. I did ask him about the fact that voters but then he wasn't thought that he, he was not transparent at all.

[Jake Tapper]

No, he promised you that he would be transparent about his health records and then he wasn't. And when you sat with him again, including one month after the Jackie Walorski thing, you didn't ask him about it. You didn't follow up on the fact that he was falling up the stairs, that he was losing his train of thought regularly, that he was slurring, that he was incomprehensible, that he was getting lost on the White House lawn. You sat right across from him. And you asked none of that, notwithstanding the fact that he had promised you he would be fully transparent about his health issues.

[Marty Smith]

That's true. But I did ask him about his age and the fact that the American people had concluded that even though he said, whenever anybody brought up the subject of his age, watch me. And I said, they're watching you, and they are concerned that you did. You were too old for this job.

[Jake Tapper]

So you know as well as I do that there's a way of. You can say, hey, there's this poll on your age. Or you could say you just forgot that Jackie Walorski was dead. You, you asked where she was moments after watching a videotape tribute to her. You lowered the flags at the White House after she died. This happened 13 days before you sat with him. There is a way of pressing a man like that on the actual infirmities to bring it home to him and to the audience. And you didn't do it.

[Marty Smith]

That's correct, I didn't. And like I said, I feel humility about my coverage. I mean, it's not like I was asking him his favorite movie or his favorite color. We were talking about Putin. We were talking about other issues of national importance. But, yeah, I mean, of course, I've said I look back at my coverage with humility, and I wish I did cover the issues of age and acuity, but I wish I had covered them much more. And I wish, I mean, of course, it's May 2025. Do I wish that in that 10, 15 minute interview I had with Biden in October 2022, that this had been the only subject? Because I had then what I know now.

[Jake Tapper]

It wasn't just that, though, Jake. It wasn't just that. I mean, you sat with him a couple of times in the course of his presidency and these issues were not pressed? Well, there was at least that time, and then there was the time at the beginning and. But separate and apart from that, you covered the Biden's presidency. No, no, no, Let me, let me just finish my point.

[Marty Smith]

I'm just saying one interview with him during his. I had one interview with.

[Jake Tapper]

And it was 13 days after the Jackie Walorski thing. But you covered the Biden presidency aggressively throughout the four years, and you didn't cover mental acuity hardly at all. I mean, time and time again, when issues came up, you seem to be running cover for the president. I don't think that's true. I'm interested in. Well, I mean, we'll start with the Lara Trump issue that you referred. Here it is. This happened in 2020.

[Marty Smith]

Joe Biden, as we all know, his work to overcome a stutter. How do you think it makes little kids with stutters feel when they see you make a comment like that?

[Lara Trump]

First and foremost, I had no idea that Joe Biden ever suffered from a stutter. I think what we see on stage with Joe Biden, Jake, is very clearly a cognitive decline. That's what I'm referring to. It makes me uncomfortable.

[Marty Smith]

You are.

[Jake Tapper]

No.

[Marty Smith]

That's so amazing.

[Jake Tapper]

Trying to tell me that.

[Lara Trump]

What I was suggesting was I think.

[Marty Smith]

You were mocking his stutter. I think you were mocking his stutter. And I think you have absolutely no standing to diagnose somebody's cognitive decline.

[Lara Trump]

And it's very concerning to a lot of people that this could be the leader of the free world. That is all I'm saying. I genuinely am sorry for Joe.

[Marty Smith]

I appreciate it. I'm sure it was from a place of concern. We all, we all believe that Lara Trump. Thank you so much.

[Jake Tapper]

Do you want to apologize to Lara Trump now?

[Marty Smith]

I've already apologized to her. I called her months ago.

[Jake Tapper]

And what did she say?

[Marty Smith]

I mean, I don't want to disclose the. The contents of a private conversation, but I thought the conversation went well. And she said, she has said this publicly, so I feel fine sharing it. She said that she would never mock anybody's stutter. But, I mean, I, you know, after we did the research for this book and I realized how bad his acuity issues were, I like, I mean, I called Lara Trump and I said, you were right.

[Jake Tapper]

She was totally right. That's the thing, because when I watched that clip and I'm giving voice to what a lot of people watching the show are feeling, Jake, I feel angry because she was right. And not only did you not allow her to make her comments, but you, you seem to try to humiliate her. You, you had a hostility toward the position, but she was totally right. And then you lectured her on how she was in no position to diagnose cognitive decline, which you guys do at length, including on page four of your book, you describe at length his cognitive decline, which is all she tried to do with you, but you had such a visceral reaction to her. And my feeling is that's because you didn't want to hear it now.

[Marty Smith]

I mean, I'm happy to talk about this. I didn't come here thinking that you weren't going to ask me about this. I'm happy to talk to you about it.

[Jake Tapper]

No.

[Marty Smith]

I know the first time I saw the coverage of Lara Trump's comments which were interpreted as her mocking Joe Biden stutter was in January 2020. I read it in conservative media, I read it in the Daily Mail, and that's where I saw that her comments were being interpreted that way. After those comments were publicized, it got a lot of coverage. And Sully Sullenberger wrote an op ed in the New York Times criticizing her about this. So that's the context for that, that I was following up on a story that had been out there months before. This is also in the context of October 2020, a very intense time. People on the Biden side are saying crazy things about Trump. People on the Trump side are saying crazy things about Biden, including Don Jr. Suggesting that Joe Biden is a pedophile. So that is the larger context. But as I said, her comments have aged well. My comments have aged poorly. I own that. But I think what is significant is in addition to me owning that the reporting that Alex and I have done, which is beyond just. And when I say just, I don't mean to diminish it, but the comments of Joe Biden making gaffes, saying things stupid, tripping, are all important and all deserved to be aired and all deserve scrutiny. But as you know, Megan, because even though you look 30 years younger than me, we're roughly the same age. Joe Biden has been saying stupid things for decades.

[Jake Tapper]

Okay, but this minimizes it too, because it was, no, I'm not minimizing at all stupid things. But I'm telling you, like over here in my ecosphere, we were covering all of these. It wasn't just falling down, it was getting lost. It was some of the stuff you report in your book. We knew and we were reporting on like the multi jump cuts in the videos of him where it was obvious he couldn't get through a one minute take so they had to use those. It was clear to us that he was using teleprompter in and, and there was some reporting on that at the time, all of which the White House was denying. Now with the current White House, I have some connections with the Joe Biden White House. I had none. But you did. You did. And so you've been in Washington 30 years, Jake, you guys, you and CNN have White House connections, but there was no effort, none, to get to the bottom of this. And now for you guys to write this book, like there was a cover up. It's like you. There was a cover up and there was an attempted cover up. It could only ever work if you allowed it, if the press allowed it. Some of us tried not to and some of us were complicit.

[Marty Smith]

First of all, the Biden White House did not like me. Okay. This is. I do not have great connections with the Biden White House.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, clearly a lot of sources. You say you Talked to over 200 sources for this book.

[Marty Smith]

This is after the election.

[Jake Tapper]

You could have called and worked.

[Marty Smith]

I know. That's the point is that they were not being honest. That's the point.

[Jake Tapper]

That Wall Street Journal get it in June of 2024. And Jake Tapper and CNN couldn't find sources for this story. Then before he dropped out, Annie Lynske.

[Marty Smith]

And Siobhan Hughes did an amazing job in their reporting. And they should be heralded. And I heralded them. I had them on my show right after the debate to talk about their great reporting. But Annie Lynskey.

[Jake Tapper]

But you did not put them on when they published that story, which was before the debate.

[Marty Smith]

Correct. I don't know what the booking situation was, but it wasn't because I didn't want them. I'm sure I said that day, let's book. I'm sure I said that day, let's book that. Did they?

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah. You.

[Marty Smith]

Yeah.

[Jake Tapper]

You put on a Democrat and, and you allowed the Democrat to rip out the report as a Rupert Murdoch sponsored hit piece.

[Marty Smith]

No, no, no.

[Jake Tapper]

It's just.

[Marty Smith]

Megan.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, that's going to do if we're.

[Marty Smith]

Going to, if we're going to do this. Let's just stick to the facts here, okay? When there is a damaging report.

[Jake Tapper]

That's what I've been doing all along.

[Marty Smith]

I'm talking about what you just said.

[Jake Tapper]

The biggest story of the century when it comes to presidential politics. And one of us did.

[Marty Smith]

Okay, so the. There is a difference, okay, between the clips of Joe Biden falling on a stage at the Air Force Academy graduation. There is a difference between the clip of Joe Biden embarrassingly forgetting that a Republican member of Congress who he's talking about has died. Those are embarrassing. Those are important. But there is a difference between that and the investigative journalism that Alex and I were able to do and only able to do after the election. And I know you know this because you've been talking about the scoops in the book and you've been talking about.

[Jake Tapper]

I don't diminish the importance of the book. I don't. I have supported the importance of the book and we'll talk about the contents of the book at length. But there is no way we can have that conversation with an audience that is as skeptical of your ability to tell the story as mine is without addressing your role in this. Right. Like Alex is a different story. But you know, you've watched the coverage since it came out that you wrote this book. There are just a legion of articles about how comparing you in some instances to like OJ Instead of if I did it, this is if I hid it, that like, you are not the right messenger to bring the story about the COVID up because you helped, you allowed it and you likely did that out of a desire to help Joe Biden and hurt Donald Trump. You didn't want to do anything that might improve Trump's chances.

[Marty Smith]

I do not think that that is accurate. I do not think that that is true at all. The idea that Siobhan and Annie do their piece and we have on the co chair of the Biden campaign is not me trying to cover for the Biden campaign. That is me putting the questions of the reporting that were made to him and saying things like, so you really haven't seen any moment or you would acknowledge that, wouldn't you acknowledge that he' the step, he's 81, et cetera, et cetera. Like I said before, if I had known then what I know now, would I have been more aggressive? Yes, of course.

[Jake Tapper]

How did I know and you didn't know? I'm just curious because when I saw that Wall Street Journal report In June of 24, I scoffed at it like, okay, it's an attempt, but it's lame. Everybody on the right wing ecosystem and the independent media ecosystem knew it was a lame attempt that only scratched the surface. We, we had all been discussing his serious cognitive problems for years by that point. Jake, In June of 2022, this show did a full two hour program on his cognitive decline.

[Marty Smith]

I heard it.

[Jake Tapper]

It was. I know we want to pretend I'm mentioning the Wall Street Journal out of, as a courtesy, but those of us on this side of the aisle had been reporting in depth on his multiple problems and the obvious lies we were being told for years. For years. You really want the audience to believe you were fooled?

[Marty Smith]

What do you mean I was fooled? I'm not saying I was fooled. I'm saying we all saw these moments before the camera and they were obviously concerning and he was obviously aging and that was significant. But the people at the White House. I'm trying to answer the question, but. So the people at the White House, when I would call when others would call, when Alex would call, would lie. He's fine, he's fine. You'd call Democrats and say, what are you seeing behind the scenes here? Because this is concerning. He's fine, he's fine. This is just a moment. He's 79, he's 80. He has moments like that, but he's fine. His decision making is fine. They're still saying that. They're still saying that. And let me defend Annie and Siobhan there for a second, because you just said that their Wall Street Journal story just scratched the surface. They got what they could get in June 2024. And I went back and Alex and I went back to report some of the same things that they reported on. For example, there was a meeting in the White House about Ukraine funding in January 2024. And we were able to get people to say things, as a Democratic member of Congress that, look, I don't know who any and Siobhan's sources are, but they were not able to get them to do that. I assume that, you know, they had dozens of sources for that article, but not one of the Democrats that they talk to would even talk on background. It is a complicated thing to try to get to.

[Jake Tapper]

But your commentary on your show. Yes, I'm gonna bring you in. But your commentary on your show, Jake, consistently ran in one direction. Occasionally you would ask tough questions. I mean, here you are in September 2023 saying that Biden was sharp mentally. September of 2023. No, you said, hold on. You said he's sharp mentally. I think the question is physically. Right, he's sharp mentally. And then you pointed out that his opponent, Donald Trump, was only a couple of years younger than he was. There are many examples where you're doing that kind of coverage.

[Marty Smith]

Okay, so let's, let's be honest and full about what you're talking about, Frank.

[Jake Tapper]

There's no problem with honesty on this show.

[Marty Smith]

Okay.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah.

[Marty Smith]

Frank Ford, let's watch it.

[Jake Tapper]

Let's watch it. Yeah. Frank for came on with a biography about Joe Biden.

[Marty Smith]

Ford came on to talk about his biography, his biography with Joe Biden. And I'm trying to summarize what his conclusions were. So he is saying that Biden wants.

[Jake Tapper]

Where is the part where you say he's not sharp mentally? Frank, we've seen the following ten examples in the past year. Nevermind three years.

[Marty Smith]

I wasn't, I already said, I wish I had covered this more aggressively. Frank4 had come to the show to talk about his book about President Biden. This was in September 2023. And I interviewed him about his book and that was the end of that. Now, I suppose in retrospect, I say again, I wish I had been more aggressive. I do.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah.

[Marty Smith]

But our reporting suggests, and like I said, we've talked to more than 200 people, Democratic insiders, that the real deterioration of, of President Biden. And yes, there was a degression or regression, whatever you want to call it, deterioration since 2015. But it really started to intensify in the summer of 2023 when Beau Biden, I'm sorry, when Hunter Biden's plea deal fell apart and Joe Biden was terrified about what that effect would have on his son.

[Jake Tapper]

I accept that. I accept that it got worse in 23.

[Marty Smith]

And people close to him say that was a real demarcation. And in October 2023, there is the last cabinet meeting for almost a year. And cabinet secretaries tell us that that began that fall. 2023 began what they call a weird period where they were kept at bay, where they were kept away from President Biden.

[Jake Tapper]

And that now we're getting one of this, which I do want to talk about. I'm about to switch to that. But let me, let me just ask you, because when we got to leading up to the debate which you anchored that June 27th debate, 2024, there was a ton of news leading into that debate in that month. And we look back at your coverage and found that you ignored it. Not only did you ignore the Jackie Walorski moment when you had him 13 days later, but you ignored the freeze up that he had at the Juneteenth celebration. You ignored what happened to the G7 when he wandered off and Giorgia Meloni, Prime Minister of Italy, had to go find him. You ignored the freeze up at the George Clooney LA fundraiser. You didn't cover it. You only covered it after the debate, after George Clooney wrote his op ed. Jake, nobody made you do that. There was. Your network at every turn was telling us those were, quote, cheap fakes. And you were not combating that narrative. You were CNN was actively misleading us on what our very eyes were showing us. That's the truth. That's the record.

[Marty Smith]

I will acknowledge that after I was named moderator, co moderator of the debate, I tried to make sure that my coverage was fairly vanilla, both about Trump and about Biden, because I just wanted to get to the debate. And you know, the Biden people and the Trump people, I'm kind of frankly surprised that either one of them agreed to have me as a moderator because both sides disliked me so much. But yeah, I remember that, that moment. And I remember that moment, the glitch at the immigration event, not getting much attention outside of conservative media at all. And Alex and I are here to say that conservative media was right and conservative media was correct and that there should be a lot of soul searching, not just among me, but among the legacy media to begin with, all of us, for how this was covered or not covered sufficiently, 100%. So, I mean, I'm not here to defend coverage that I've already acknowledged. I wish I could do differently.

[Jake Tapper]

Let me bring Alex in. Thank you for your patience, Alex, and apologies for the.

[Marty Smith]

I think he's fine. I think he's fine.

[Jake Tapper]

You know, the audience may not be aware based on what just happened, but Jake and I are actually friends. And this is all said in, look, the context of. I know what my audience wants to hear asked. And Jake has told me before he wanted the opportunity to answer these questions.

[Marty Smith]

So, Megan, Megan, we didn't come on the show thinking that this was going to be a softball interview. I understand, like, listen, listen, as a, the first of all, nobody flagellates Jake Tapper more than Jake Tapper, okay? Like, I, I get it. I understand. I am fallible. I make mistakes. It's not just the Biden coverage. I mean, I go back and I look at like, I wish I had been covering terrorism more before 9 11. I wish that I had covered the WMD with more skepticism. And there's, you know, a million things. This is definitely among them. And conservative media absolutely has every right to say we were hip to this and the legacy media was not. Now, I do not accept that I was part of a cover up. I do not accept that I was just providing cover for Joe Biden. I think a lot of these clips are not fair. The one that is fair is the Lara Trump clip and I own it and I regret it. And I've told her that privately and that's completely fair. But what we uncovered after the election, what people were willing to tell us after the election was so shocking. And yeah, the Jackie Walorski thing is awful, but I would posit that President Biden not being able to come with, come up with the name of his national security advisor in December 2022 is important information.

[Jake Tapper]

And I would also posit, I'm not arguing that the book has no place in importance. Let me ask Alex something so you may be aware. The hard time I've given you on this show is not because of your coverage of the Biden mental decline. I've given you a hard time over the past couple of weeks because you were honored by the White House Correspondents dinner for covering this story, which honestly is like getting the award for being the thinnest kid at fat camp. I mean, there was literally no competition at the White House Correspondents association dinner that they would even consider. They're not gonna give awards to anybody in the right wing ecosphere who covered this from the beginning. With all due respect to you, Alex, but when you got up there, you actually got up there and said, we, myself included, missed a lot of this story. And we bear some responsibility for faith in the media being at such lows. But we, the media did not miss this story, Alex. We did not miss this. We were all over this story. We were night covering this story.

[Marty Smith]

The we. We knew you hated the we after he said, we talked about this.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, it was insane. It was an insane comment to make. Who were you?

[Marty Smith]

He meant the we in the room. He was talking about the people in the.

[Jake Tapper]

Not your turn to talk anymore. It's Alex's turn.

[Alex Thompson]

Thank you. Thank you. I can defend myself. No, we were the people in the room. I mean, like, I was getting. It was a White House correspondence dinner. I was talking to the people in the room that covered Joe Biden.

[Jake Tapper]

All right, so here's my follow up. Got it. Here's the follow up. We, we, if that's who we is, did not miss the story. We in that room intentionally chose not to cover the story or dig into the story, which is a massive story that we have missed in original sin.

[Alex Thompson]

I'm glad you asked me this question because I heard you ripped me to shreds the night out the. The Monday after the dinner. And at first I was meant to.

[Jake Tapper]

Say was congratulations and.

[Alex Thompson]

And at first I was defensive, but then I was, you know, I thought about it also, you know, from your all perspective, especially like the missed part. And like your readers, your readers that were saying, hey, there's a problem here, or not your readers, but your listeners saying, there's a problem here. And I'm not seeing it reflected in the media. And then after the debate happens everyone to be like, oh my God, there's a problem. I'd be pissed too, because you would feel like you weren't listened to. And I'm sure that a lot of people felt that it was because some reporters let their own personal politics get in the way. And let's be honest, like a lot of newsrooms in D.C. and New York are more liberal than not. And they, I mean, I'll just say for myself, I think some of them let their own personal politics get in the way. But in terms of the missed part, the reason I said missed is because I think there were a lot of really great reporters on this beat. And I know you may disagree, I know your listeners may disagree, but I was in the White House every day and I think a lot of them really do try and do some really great work every single day that sometimes you also use on this show from the New York Times and others. And I felt that basically saying that calling everyone in the room not a good faith reporter, I didn't think was fair. And so I was, I said miss to sort of give grace for both.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, that's sweet. I'm less graceful than you are and less forgiving, but that's fine. Takes all kinds. Let's go. Let's do some substance. Okay. Of the book because we still have some time and I want to get into it. You guys write in Original Sin out today, the Biden cover up may not be unique, but it is arguably the most consequential. So what do you mean by that? How so, Alex?

[Alex Thompson]

Well, we've seen this before. Wilson, you know, and Edith Wilson, his wife after a stroke. FDR was incredibly sick during the 1944 campaign. You know, we obviously know a little bit more now about JFK and Ronald Reagan. I'd say two reasons. One is, you know, the FDR one wasn't as consequential because he won.

[Jake Tapper]

So you mean amongst health cover ups, that's what you mean?

[Alex Thompson]

Yes, that's what I meant. I think that's what we meant in the book. Yeah. Sorry.

[Jake Tapper]

All right, let's keep going. You, you write that you spoke with at least four Cabinet secretaries of Joe Biden's and that they said he could not be relied upon to, quote, perform at 2am during an emergency. So, and here's just a little.

[Marty Smith]

By the end of 2024.

[Jake Tapper]

By the end of 2024, quoting here from your reporting, access dropped off considerably in 2024. And one of the cabinet secretaries, number one you referred to said, I did not interact with him as much. I didn't get an explanation. Instead, that Cabinet secretary would brief other senior White House aides who then briefed the President. Yes, the President is making the decisions, but if the inner circle is shaping them in such a way, is it really a decision? Are they leading him to something? Said this one a different Cabinet Secretary number three, October 2023, the Cabinet was kept at bay with the exceptions of Lloyd Austin and Antony Blinken, quote, for months, we did not have access to him. There was clearly a deliberate strategy by the White House to have him meet with as few people as possible or as necessary. At one rare meeting during that time, Cabinet Secretary 3 was, quote, shocked by how the President was acting. He seemed disoriented and out of it, his mouth, agape. All I can think when I see that word, agape, Jake, is that debate that you hosted that I just. That's what it was the whole time, agape, to the point where when I was reading, I listened to my news oftentimes on, like, these apps that will read you the article and the news readers, the AI newsreaders pronounced that word agape. And all I heard for, like, I must have heard 200 times, agape the day after that debate. So it was a pattern. The Cabinet secretaries were saying it, you saw it, we all saw it. And yet what did they tell you behind the scenes about what, if anything, they did about it?

[Marty Smith]

Well, nothing. I mean, that's the thing. There is very little in terms of actual action that happened. And one of the reasons for that, I think, is because by the end of 2023 and then throughout 2024.

[Jake Tapper]

So.

[Marty Smith]

Many people had been sequestered off from President Biden that there weren't people that had any reliable information about his current condition. It's actually one of the interesting parts of the Post debate coverage. There are people in the White House that the communications office of the Biden White House are trying to get them to go out and defend the President and say, you, you know, I, I just met with him, he's fine, blah, blah, blah. And they had not seen him in weeks or even months. They could not attest to his fitness. When Ron Klain, the former Biden White House chief of staff, is calling around and trying to rally Democrats after the debate to speak about Biden's acuity. Many of them tell Klain, I haven't seen him in a year, or I haven't seen him in a year and a half. Now, Klain interprets that as his successor, Jeff Zients, is managing the portfolio poorly and should be doing more to have, like, you know, make nice with Congress stuff. But Alex and I interpret that as they are hiding Biden from as many people as they can. So there aren't as many people who have seen him. I actually, Nancy Pelosi, as we write about in the book, has a private and secret meeting with Biden after the debate where she's urging him to look at the polling information. And I don't know when the last time she had had a one on one with him was because she suggests that after she stepped down as Democratic leader after the midterms of 2022, she barely saw him. And this is a theme throughout 2023, especially the last half of 2023 and 2024. How many people didn't have access to him? How many people didn't see him? And that.

[Jake Tapper]

And this, this was by design. You write in the book that Alex, I'll bring you in because there was a. So called, what you write about as a politburo surrounding him. It was four people plus Biden to make five. Can you tell us who those people were? And is the theory then that those are the four people who did know and worked as this as sort of cabal to keep everybody else at arm's length so that they wouldn't also have full knowledge of his deterioration?

[Alex Thompson]

That to me, yeah.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah.

[Alex Thompson]

Okay. So the people that we're naming would be Mike Donnell and Steve Rachetti. Mike Donald's his top political advisor. Steve Richetti is his top legislative advisor. Ron Klain when he was chief of staff. Bruce Reed, his basically longtime policy advisor. You can. Those are sort of the four. They were known as a politburo, gray hairs, poobahs. And they were with him the most of anybody. Now if you were to ask them, and I still think even if you put them on truth serum today, they would say he was fine. You know, I think, I don't know if they're lying or lying to themselves or it doesn't matter. Then there's this other sort of group that aren't the politburo but are just as powerful. And they were the ones that kept the schedule, affected personnel and really built the bubble. And that would be Annie Thomasini, who was deputy chief of Staff and previously Oval Office operations. And then Anthony Bernal, who was the top aideenforcer for First Lady Jill Biden and had incredible influence to the point that even people in the Biden White House would refer to her as one of the most powerful first ladies in history.

[Jake Tapper]

You write about this guy Bernal a lot and you suggest, Jake, it was very tough to find anybody with a nice word to say about this guy who is Jill Biden's top person.

[Marty Smith]

Yeah. And he acknowledged that he had a tough reputation. He was the chief of staff for Jill Biden and perhaps the most powerful first lady chief of staff in the history of this country. He is somebody that enforced what Jill Biden wanted. And at the end of the day, one of the things that was interesting when we wrote this book and researched this book, was trying to figure out why was there no discussion of whether or not he should run for reelection? Why was it just a foregone conclusion that he was going to run for reelection, especially after he had made this kind of vague promise that he would be a one term president. And it came down to two people, one of whom spoke for Biden, that's Mike Donilon, and the other one spoke for first lady Jill Biden, and that's Anthony Bernal. And basically they communicated to the rest of the staff. Bernal would say, you run for two terms, you serve for two terms, you don't do one. And Mike Donilon would say, Biden's made the decision, he's running. That's it. There's no discussion. And when people would try to raise it, although nobody directly with Joe Biden, but when people try to raise. Anita Dunn said something like, are we sure this is a good idea? A different pollster was like, shouldn't we figure out if this is even a good idea? This is the politics of it all. This is not whether or not he should or should not have been president. This is about whether or not he could get reelected, which is a different level here. They would say the decision's been made, the decision's been made. And so there was a small group of people running the train. And I think that it's not a star chamber so much because they weren't like, it wasn't like five of them in a room making these decisions, but definitely Rachetti and Donilon, definitely Bernal. And then different individuals hopping in and out, whether Jan o' Malley Dillon, who was a deputy chief of staff and then ran the campaign, whether Anita Dunn, whether Ron Klain or Jeff Zients, the chiefs of staff, all played different roles.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, how about, can you follow up, Jake, on what you said earlier? Because just this week Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser was out saying, geez, what I saw at that debate shocked me. But you have reporting in this book that Jake Sullivan was well aware that Joe Biden was having some serious memory.

[Marty Smith]

Problems going back years in December 2022, the day that her name is escaping me, which is ironic. Brittney Griner, the name, I'm sorry, I'm not a big WNBA fan. The time that Brittney Griner gets out of Russian control. Russian, you know, she was A prisoner in Russia. Biden is outside the Oval Office with and Jake by Jake Sullivan, his national Security Advisor, and Kate Bedingfield, his communications director, are there and he can't come up with their names. This is December 2022. He calls Jake, Steve. Steve, and then he calls Kate Bedingfield Press, and then he beckons them to come with him. So I don't know. I saw in that same interview that Jake said he did, Jake Sullivan said he didn't remember that. I can't attest to what people remember or what they don't. I just know that that happened.

[Jake Tapper]

That happened. And you also report, Alex, that there was interference run by, I think, this same politburo, this cabal against the White House residents staffers so that they would not witness what the inner circle was witnessing with his deterioration. Can you fill that out a bit?

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah. The resident staff were really stunned with how especially the First Lady's office took over, really through Bernal and Annie Tomasini, both of them, also unusual, had resident staff passes, which is not normal for aides in the White House to be able to go, like to and from. They would, you know, just had certain powers to the point that a lot of the resident staff, you know, they felt they were being kept at bay, that they were not trusted and that they often were there just twiddling their thumbs. They would have to go. They often went home early. They didn't have a lot to do. And there was a feeling among some in the resident staff that this was about hiding his deterioration. And we quote one resident staff, you know, official that said he would just sometimes look at you, and I'm paraphrasing, he would just sometimes look at you like he doesn't even know you. Even though I was seeing him every day.

[Jake Tapper]

They would keep somebody out of the elevator. Was the elevator. Is the elevator in the White House normally manned? Because you seem to be reporting that they ejected that person from that post.

[Alex Thompson]

Yes. They basically said, your services will no longer be necessary. And they. Again, it was part of this larger pattern of where we are taking over the residents now. Your services are needed sometimes, but not as much as they almost always are.

[Jake Tapper]

But how about Jill Biden, Alex?

[Alex Thompson]

I mean, she was first and foremost a protector and she and loyalty enforcer. And she would. Had tremendous control over. Over the schedule over keeping, you know, that circle very, very close. And I think, you know, even though she would never admit that, you know, that he has any problems, I think by her very actions. You saw it on the View, but privately, too you know, jumping in with answers, trying to help him along, guiding him, introducing so he remembers who they are. You know, that by her action shows that she knows that he needs help, that he needs someone to pick up the slack.

[Jake Tapper]

All right, we'll pick it up there. We have to get into the presidential debate and what Jake's reaction was when he had that onstage meltdown. And what is the reaction from these guys to the announcement about Joe Biden's cancer diagnosis on the eve of their pub date? Stand by. We'll be right back. Tax day may have passed, but for millions of Americans, the real trouble is just beginning. If you missed the April 15 deadline or still owe back taxes, the IRS is ramping up enforcement. Oh, joy. Every day you wait might make things worse. With over 5,000 new tax liens filed daily and tools like property seizures, bank levies, and wage garnishments, the IRS is applying pressure at levels we haven't seen in years. The good news, there's still time for Tax Network USA to help self employed or a business owner. Even if your books are a mess, they've got it covered. Tax Network USA specializes in cleaning up financial chaos and getting you back on track fast. Even after the deadline, it's not too late to regain control. Your consultation is completely free. And acting now could stop penalties, threatening letters, and surprise levies before they escalate. Call 1-800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com Megan, you may have missed the April 15 deadline, but you haven't run out of options. Let Tax Network USA help you before the IRS makes the next move. All right, Jake, So I have been in the free front row of a presidential debate in big.

[Marty Smith]

Oh, I remember.

[Jake Tapper]

And I remember one of the interesting, one of the interesting things is always like, what's the dynamic between the anchors on the set when you know big news is being made? So walk us through that moment when he completely fell apart with the I killed Medicare and everybody was left with their own agape moment.

[Marty Smith]

Presumably your, your viewers and listeners know the agape reference by now. So that front row seat was really disturbing. And again, as you say, we all watched President Biden age. We all watched his gaffes. We all watched these moments that were uncomfortable and obviously representative of a decline going on. But there was something about that debate that was utterly shocking. And maybe you and your listeners were not shocked. Maybe, maybe you thought that this was gonna happen. And this was, I think it was.

[Jake Tapper]

One of those shocked but not surprised moments for us.

[Marty Smith]

So he comes out and you know, he's obviously shuffling, as had been going on with him for years because of his degenerative spine. And although, by the way, that was another thing that the White House wasn't being honest about. They were saying it had to do with his, like, breaking his ankle or something in December 2020 and not wearing.

[Jake Tapper]

The boot and his refusal to wear the like cast or.

[Marty Smith]

Not true.

[Jake Tapper]

Another lie.

[Marty Smith]

Yeah, not true. So he comes out and he has a cold also. And he sounds so even. His voice obviously. Go back and listen to him in 2020, his voice is much deeper and more and stronger. And then, you know, he comes out. It's, it's, it's thinner, it's readier. He obviously is coughing a lot. But there was something about that moment.

[Jake Tapper]

My first text to my producing team read phlegm. And I saw that same word in your book referencing what you were thinking.

[Marty Smith]

It was phlegmi. He was definitely very phlegmy. It was a few minutes in. I mean, his first answer was not good, but that wasn't ultimately particularly surprising. I think it was the second answer, the second long answer in that economics block that we did, where he just completely lost his train of thought in such a way that he was like grasping for words. And look, he has those crutches where he starts wandering off and then he says anyway, because he's lost his train of thought. That's something that we've seen. But this was something else. This was something more shocking. And he said, then he says, we finally beat Medicare. Presumably he was trying to say we finally beat Covid, but it was really shocking. Also interesting at the time was Trump obviously was very Trumpy during the debate. He did his thing. If you like it, you like it. If you don't, you don't. For Trump, given what was going on to his left, he was fairly restrained. He wasn't really commenting on the self immolation that was going on. I think he only made one comment that night about Biden's incoherence. He said something like, he. I'm not really sure what he just said, and I'm not sure that he does either, or something like that. I'm paraphrasing, but.

[Jake Tapper]

But it was shocking. Get to the text that you sent to your control room and those close between you and Dana.

[Marty Smith]

So. So we have iPads because you can't communicate, obviously talking to your control room during a debate. We have iPads where you can write on them, and I recommend it if you don't have one, by the way, it's fantastic. And, and I wrote because I had no idea who was back there, so I tried to keep it clean. I wrote, holy smokes. Now what I was thinking was, holy fuck. I mean, it was just shocking, but I kept it clean. Dana wrote, Dana writes to me on a piece of paper. He just lost the election. And it was just, I mean, it is, I don't think this is hyperbole at all. The worst debate in the history of presidential debates going back to 1960. I just can't think of anything even remotely close to it.

[Jake Tapper]

And then you saw him immediately after you write in the book and he seemed like unaware that oblivion, extremely problematic, had just occurred.

[Marty Smith]

Well, it's just, first of all, Jill helps him down from the stage. It's like a one, it's a one step stage. Maybe it was a little distracting because there were weird lights or whatever, but that looked weird too. But they come over to the table. Trump, Trump is long gone. He's probably, he's probably in the air at that point. And he, they come over and they really didn't seem to have any idea that this had been as bad as it was. And it was very awkward. He said something about, sorry about, sorry about my cold and can you like, he tried to like, say something about how much Trump lies. And then he said something like, I guess, I guess we'll go see what the commentators have to say or something like that. And he and Jill wander off and it was just one of these, you know, sometimes you think like, did I just see that? Was that, did, did I just witness this 90 minute event? Yes, during it also, I just, I'll just say, so I'm 56, so I'm now at the age where, like, I love sleep. Like, sleep is something that when you're a kid, you hate it so much, but when you're an adult, you're like, I can't get enough of it. And I even thought as this debate started, why are we starting at 9, this is so late. And then when Biden started to fomf around, I thought, man, starting this at 9 was really a bad idea. Why didn't they ask?

[Jake Tapper]

They never should have agreed. We never should have agreed. Following up on a point from earlier, Alex, because we talked about the cabinet secretaries unnamed and we talked about the politburo protecting him and you gave us the names. There is a suggestion in the book, though it's never written explicitly that President Biden wasn't always making the calls as president. Is that, is that what you're reporting that he was not in full command of the decision making for those four years.

[Alex Thompson]

Well, some members of the cabinet told us that they felt that one of them put it to us this way because what happened is they closed ranks. They had the cabinet members come in and brief senior staff and then they, and then the senior staff would brief the President. And one member of the cabinet put it to us this way, yes, the president is officially making the decision, you know, putting the sign dotted line. But if the, if the decision is framed in a certain way, is it really a decision? And are really they the ones making the decision? And there was a feeling that, that they were, you know, putting their hand on the scale one way or another. And, you know, some people also felt that this began, you know, as early as 2021, when, you know, the Biden administration, you know, went pretty far to the left of where Joe Biden had been for a lot of his career. And many people attributed to that to Ron Klain, who is more progressive being chief of staff. And they felt, some people, including in the Cabinet, felt that if Biden had been 20 years younger, it may have been different. One cabinet member said, you know, he's an old man. He's got four to six hour good hours a day. And if that's the case, sometimes things are missed. You know, he's not in the weeds as much.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, we made by other people. Wait, wait, let me, let me keep going because I only have you for seven more minutes. I know you gotta, you gotta date with somebody else. Follow up to you on this, Alex. So right before you guys launched your book, as you know, on Sunday night, they came out with an announcement that he's suffering from prostate cancer that's metastasized to his bones. We've had multiple doctors come out and say that has to be at least a five to seven year run. Some have acknowledged there's a very, very small percentage who could potentially have like that had prostate cancer that went into the bones, but extremely rare. Anyway, what do you make of the timing of that announcement and do you think it's any accident that it came in between you releasing the her audio tapes and on Axios on Saturday and you guys releasing your book today?

[Alex Thompson]

I can tell you I wrote in a story with Mark Caputo this morning that some people that even worked in the Biden White House are suspicious of the timing and they are skeptical of it. I don't want to get into skepticism. I try to just report and not speculate. But I can tell you that you Know, some people that worked for him felt very strange about the sudden timing of this. And you know, I'm gonna continue to report it out. It's obviously very sad. And I also think, you know, we framed this book as a tragedy of a man undone. And I think this just further shows that tragic element. And also, you know, how risky it was for him to run for reelection at such an old age.

[Jake Tapper]

Is that oh shit moment? Is it all an oh shit moment where you're like, oh my God. The whole book is about his health and a cover up and we miss the fact that he, he's got cancer, he's got terminal cancer. I mean, like, I don't know, is that. Do you feel like, what's your odds? What do you think the odds are? Because your whole book is about how he covers up about his, his health problems. So, I mean, I mean, you're in an interesting position now as reporters who are continuing to report on politics and whether you give credence to this story that he just found out and he didn't know while he was the sitting president. How are you gonna, how do you handle that?

[Marty Smith]

Jason, I certainly understand the skepticism and I think if there's anything this book instructs us is we should be very skeptical and we should also demand more from our leaders when it comes to health records. There was a moment in the where Senator Debbie Stabenow, a Democrat of Michigan, is with, is alone with First Lady Jill Biden. This is after the debate before, but before Biden drops out. And Senator Stabenow says something like, we don't know what's wrong with Joe Biden. We don't know if there's a condition, but you do. And First Lady Biden doesn't answer the question. And then later fumes about the temerity of Senator Stabenow saying that. And I think what we've learned in the last couple days about President Biden's health, and obviously I know all of us wish him the best in his fight against prostate cancer. What I think it gets at is the difficulty of hard reporting and investigative journalism when it comes to health issues. Observations and punditry are important and necessary, but the deep investigation of what is going on behind the scenes and what is going on in terms of somebody's health, that is very tough. And as we all know, we don't have subpoena power. We can't break into doctor's offices. I have no reporting on when he found out about this. All we have, all the world has is their word and if you believe their word, then you believe their word. And if you don't, you're left with your skepticism.

[Jake Tapper]

Yeah, there's certainly reason to doubt their word. Question for you, Jake, on the reportage front is, do you, what do you do with these Cabinet secretaries who didn't tell the truth about Biden's mental acuity, but now have told the truth to you, and then they want to come on your show? Maybe some of them will run for president. I mean, now that you know, Right. That they are not honest brokers like you actually know, what do you do about that?

[Marty Smith]

That's interesting. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. It has been interesting watching some of the Democrats and, you know, who talk to us for the book and what they say publicly versus what they say privately, that has been interesting. Yeah. I saw one congresswoman who we quote in the book, Susan Wilde, former congresswoman from Pennsylvan. They're tweeting something like Andrew Yang, like, we need to move forward and focus on Trump and not Biden. And she's quoted in the book during a meeting, a zoom meeting of the, of the ranking Democrats, saying something like, biden can't come to my district, and he makes us all out to be liars. And it's just when it was pointed out to her that her, that what she said, according to the book, was very different than what she was saying. Now, she, at least to her credit, fessed up to it. She didn't deny it. But it is weird watching the dance between people who know how bad it was and are just keeping quiet or trying to change the subject. And those who know how bad it was and are lying to the public. It's interesting.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, I mean, one of them is Hakeem Jeffries, who you point out in the book. He knew he was there when Biden was having one of his many problems. And now he's out there like, we're moving forward. We're moving forward. Chuck Schumer, too. Like, we're moving forward. They knew. Chuck Schumer's all over your book with big meetings where he went to Joe Biden, which was previously reported, but a lot of details about him saying, you're not being told the truth, you've got to get out. You're going to lose. You're going to bring us all down. And now he's like, forward, moving forward. Anyway. Okay, let me keep going because there's two other things I want to ask you about, Jake. We had, we played a soundbite from Mark Halperin's show where he interviewed a guy named Rufus Gifford who was the campaign finance chair for Joe Biden's campaign. And he was at the now infamous Clooney fundraiser for Biden in June of 24. And he took issue with your reporting. We played the audience's sound bite. I won't waste time in it now. But he says it didn't happen. What you report. Clooney did not walk in there, sorry, Biden did not walk in there and go sort of through a bunch of people saying, nice to see you, nice to see you, thanks for being here. Thanks for being here. He said that was impossible because he got there, he was announced by his handler. And immediately the handler said, you know George Clooney, you know Julia Roberts. He said nice to meet and moved on. And he poured cold water on that story of your book. Care to respond?

[Marty Smith]

We're pretty confident about the sourcing and the event as described. And you know, we just went through as a country years and years of the Biden people lying and denying and I'm not particularly interested in pretending any of that is credible. We are very sure of our story. It wasn't just in our book. It was thoroughly fact checked in the New Yorker who did an excerpt of it and we stand by it. And I, I don't really care what Rufus says.

[Jake Tapper]

And now do you care what the ladies of the View say? Because that's kind of in your, not your personally, but it's in the left wing ecosphere and they are having a very negative reaction, I'm sorry to tell you, to Original Sin. They don't like your book, guys. They don't appreciate that it's being published now. And I wonder, have they read it? They've, have they had you on, have they invited you to come on to discuss it?

[Marty Smith]

They have. They have not. They have. They have. We have gone to them any number of times and said we would love to come on the show to discuss they obviously were where President and first Lady Biden went for their prebuttal of the book. And we thought it would be, it would only be fair to have us on. But the View and for that matter, FOX News seems to enjoy using our scoops, talking about everything we learned in the months of investigative journalism and what we're revealing in this book. But they're declining to have us on to discuss it, which is regrettable because I think this is an important thing for people to come to terms with when it comes to the View or to explore in terms of the depth of what we Alex and I have been able to find out in terms of Fox News, I will say that there is clearly a contingent of people on the left who want to bury their head in the sand on this issue and pretend it didn't happen and pretend that it's not part of the reason why Donald Trump and the Republicans control the White House and the House and the Senate and why Democratic poll numbers are in the toilet. I think that is part of why Democrats are where they are. This, this gaslighting.

[Jake Tapper]

There was a comment by David Axelrod that we should set aside the discussion of your book and the allegations in it because of the diagnosis news. Jake, do you disagree with David Axelrod?

[Marty Smith]

Well, if I didn't, I don't think I'd be here. I mean I think what happened I'm.

[Jake Tapper]

Pleased to hear you do.

[Marty Smith]

I think we need to be discussing this. I think obviously we have sympathy for President Biden both in terms of the prostate cancer and in terms of whatever other health issue he is grafted grappling with. And we talked to many neurologists who spent you talk about how you were on a text chain with your producers the night of the debate. We talked to one of the top neurologists in the in the world who you know, has is on a text chain with a number of other top neurologists and they spent much of 2024 trying to figure out what was wrong with Joe Biden, whether it's Lewy Body dementia or Parkinson's or something Parkinsonian. And they don't know then they're not qualified to say from a distance. But it's a serious question. And the larger of transparency and group think questions for the Democratic Party and the public and the news media, these are all really important conversations to have. I don't think that our story, I don't think that our book is mean. I think it is just accurate and clear eyed and I think this is a conversation the country needs to have not just about President Biden but about all presidents.

[Jake Tapper]

It's like, it's like I tell my kids it is not mean to say something that is true but not necessarily complimentary. I mean it's not if it's true and you are not saying it with the intention to hurt somebody. It's not quote mean they're not going to get away with that. Sorry Alex, you wanted to weigh in. Go ahead.

[Alex Thompson]

I actually just wanted to say one more thing about the media coverage and this question which is, you know, Jake, when Jake Came to me with this idea. You know, on every beat, there are some suck ups. There are some people that are lazy. But I never felt that Jake, even if he fell short on the age issue, I never felt he carried the water for the Biden people. And I hope your listeners who may be skeptical of Jake at least, like, give the book a chance.

[Jake Tapper]

Yes. I don't think we've convinced them that Jake did not run cover for Joe Biden, I'm going to be honest. But I do think we may have convinced them to buy the book, which is the purpose of your visit here. And that's fine. I mean, there's a. It's a big media landscape. They don't have to watch the lead. They. They can take it. For what it's worth, I do want to ask you one question about Naomi Biden before I let you go. Guys, she weighed in. This is the president's former president's granddaughter. She called it a silly book. She says it's a political fairy smut. It is political fairy smut for the permanent professional chattering class. A bunch of unoriginal, uninspired lies written by irresponsible, self promoting journalists out to make a quick buck, relying on unnamed anonymous sources pushing a self serving false narrative. Alex, care to take that on?

[Alex Thompson]

I mean, I think the book very much shows the Biden family is very tight knit and I wasn't surprised to see it. That being said, I think we stand completely behind our reporting.

[Jake Tapper]

All right. And Jake, I'll close with this. You've gotten so much blowback in the days that led up to today. Had to hire the crisis PR agent.

[Marty Smith]

How are you feeling?

[Jake Tapper]

All right, whatever. But you've gotten a lot of blowback, so how are you feeling?

[Marty Smith]

I just want to. Yeah, telling the truth is always worth it. We hired Risa Heller because she's a political pro. And months ago, well, you had a.

[Jake Tapper]

PR agent through your publisher.

[Marty Smith]

Yeah, and they're great. But this is a very controversial political book, and we felt like it needed the eyes of a smart political team in addition to the great publicists at Penguin.

[Jake Tapper]

I get it. But you're not denying that you've had massive blowback, are you? I mean, you've been under attack for days now, of course.

[Marty Smith]

Oh, the left and the right are man.

[Jake Tapper]

Exactly.

[Marty Smith]

The left is like, why are you covering this? You should be covering Trump. Your book is full of lies. And the right is doing what you illustrated earlier with your tough questions. I will say this. People were shocked on June 27, 2020, 4, because there was, to a degree, a cover up of how bad his decline had been. So even if, and not if, even though many folks, including you, were covering this, it still was shocking what people saw on June 27th. And the only other point I'll say is I'm not disagreeing with the fact that conservatives were right on this and that people in the legacy media, including myself, should have been paying closer attention and more attention. I'm granting all of that. But the reason why I think there is interest in this book is because people want to know more beyond what they saw in front of the camera. They want to know how this happened. And I think that is what we provide through this deeply sourced, unflinching account of what really went on behind the scenes.

[Jake Tapper]

I gotta steal one more minute because I just want to explain to the audience, Jake, how Jake Tapper and Megyn Kelly became friends. Because it's a very unlikely friendship in the eyes of a lot of people. But we've both been in media for a long time. We were at FOX and CNN together. We were friends even before you went to cnn. I remember texting with you about the decision when you were leaving abc. Where, where would you go? What did you want to do? We've bonded over news and its insanity. We've bonded over the Philadelphia Eagles and your shared love with my husband Doug, of that very complicated football team. And I just, I want people to understand, like, notwithstanding that we have political differences and we have differences in the way we see news stories. Like, there's still room for mutual respect and kindness and friendship. And I think that's to our credit.

[Marty Smith]

I consider you a friend. I don't necessarily agree with everything you do or say, but that doesn't really matter. And I think it's interesting what you've done and impressive what you've built since that. You know, you know what I think about what happened to you at NBC? It's flattering to you and not to them, but. Yeah. And look, I mean, one of the things that you've said to me or said about me is that I might not always succeed, but I try to be fair, and I am trying to be fair. And I am not infallible. And I have said I wish I had covered things differently. There's a million things I wish I'd covered differently. This is obviously significant. More significant, I wrote a book about it with Alex. I mean, like, I think this is a big deal, but this book isn't me trying to do anything other than what happened. We need to know what happened. And if somebody had written this book, I would have bought it and I would have interviewed them, but they hadn't. And Alex and I got to work knowing that there would be a huge blowback both from the right and from the left, and it was just important for us to tell the story of what happened.

[Jake Tapper]

Wow. Listen, I appreciate it because I did learn a lot and I did find the debate absolutely shocking, though, as I say, not entirely surprising. Right? It's like the extent to which he had deteriorated was shocking. And by the way, before you go, thank you for all you do for our veterans as well. Guys, good luck with it. I'm sure it's gonna be a big success. It is called Original Sin, President Biden's decline, its cover up, and his disastrous choice to run again and it is available right now. All the best to you both.

[Marty Smith]

Thanks Megan. Appreciate it.

[Alex Thompson]

Thanks.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Hey, this is Dalenhardt Jr. The host of the Dale Jr. Download from Dirty Mode Media. You can catch us three times a week as we dive into the latest NASCAR news and we have real conversations with interesting people from motorsports and beyond. Plus, check out our brand new Thursday episode, Bless yous Heart, where my wife and Amy open up about marriage, parenting, and the hilarious chaos of everyday life. Check out the Dale Jr. Download today wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode in the summer.

[Megyn Kelly]

All of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay, like video Lottery or Cash Pop, helps support tons of parks projects statewide like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery Together, we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.