Rahm Emanuel on How the Dems Lost Their Way and Trump's Immigration Successes, Plus, Mark Halperin, Link Lauren and Dan Turrentine | Ep. 1112

Summary

The Megyn Kelly Show: Rahm Emanuel on Democratic Challenges and Policy Priorities | Episode 1112

Release Date: July 21, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 1112 of The Megyn Kelly Show, host Megyn Kelly engages in an in-depth conversation with Rahm Emanuel, a prominent Democratic figure known for his tenure as Chicago’s mayor, White House Chief of Staff under President Obama, and his extensive experience within the Democratic Party. The episode delves into Emanuel's perspectives on the current state of the Democratic Party, his potential presidential candidacy, and key policy issues affecting the nation.

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Rahm Emanuel's Potential Presidential Run

[02:38] Rahm Emanuel: "I got a free hour. I thought I'd just come by, swing by... I thought there was lunch. I thought we were going to have brunch or something."

Emanuel approaches his appearance on the show with a casual demeanor, initially seeming unprepared for the in-depth political discussion ahead. However, he quickly shifts focus to substantive issues, indicating his readiness to engage seriously despite earlier light-hearted remarks.

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State of the Democratic Party

[07:01] Rahm Emanuel: "There are three qualities a president and a presidential candidate have to project: strength, confidence, and optimism. Nobody, if you look at history, we never nominate the weaker or the more indecisive or the less optimistic."

Emanuel critiques the Democratic Party, suggesting it has lost its way by becoming overly politically correct (PC) and losing focus on essential policy issues. He argues that the party has become fragmented, with internal conflicts preventing a unified front. Emanuel emphasizes the importance of projecting strength and optimism, qualities he believes are currently lacking within the party.

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Education Reform and Priorities

[08:14] Megyn Kelly: "They're studying too. How to speak to young men."

[09:24] Rahm Emanuel: "We have the worst reading scores in 30 years... We're focused on everything but the most important thing."

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the state of education in the United States. Emanuel expresses concern over declining reading and math scores, attributing the problem to misplaced priorities in education policy. He advocates for a return to fundamentals, emphasizing the importance of strong literacy and numeracy skills over what he perceives as distractions like bathroom access and pronoun usage in schools.

[12:35] Rahm Emanuel: "We now have the worst reading scores in 30 years worth math scores. We have a crisis on hand... We better focus on the priority. This is tomorrow. These are our kids."

Emanuel highlights the urgent need to address educational deficiencies to ensure children are well-prepared for the future. He proposes initiatives like vocational training and integrating community college programs into high schools to equip students with practical skills essential for the job market.

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Transgender Issues and Cultural Wars

[17:18] Rahm Emanuel: "Every child walks through three doors: the front door of the home, the front door of the school, and the front door of the place of worship. If those doors are aligned, the child has a future."

The conversation shifts to the contentious topic of transgender issues in schools. Emanuel acknowledges the importance of inclusivity but argues that it should not overshadow fundamental educational priorities. He clarifies his stance on bathroom access and participation in sports, emphasizing biological differences and advocating for policies that reflect these distinctions.

[20:00] Rahm Emanuel: "As it relates to sports... So, as it relates to sports, do you believe boys should be able to play in girls' sports?"

In a rapid-fire segment, Emanuel firmly states opposition to boys participating in girls' sports and questions the validity of gender transition claims, positioning himself against prevailing party narratives on these issues.

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Economic Policies and NAFTA

[23:39] Rahm Emanuel: "The net result of NAFTA was shipping a bunch of American manufacturing jobs overseas... It’s become super controversial with both parties."

Emanuel critiques the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), attributing the loss of manufacturing jobs to its implementation. He acknowledges the complexities of international trade but underscores the need for policies that prioritize American workers and industries.

[28:37] Rahm Emanuel: "How do we bring back manufacturing jobs? Build, baby, build. Invest in carpenters, electricians, plumbers... You can’t AI that away and you can’t get it to China."

Proposing robust investment in vocational training and infrastructure, Emanuel outlines a strategy to rejuvenate American manufacturing. He emphasizes the necessity of skilled trades and advocates for educational reforms that align with industry needs.

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Immigration Challenges

[32:45] Megyn Kelly: "Why do you think Joe Biden let between 10 to 20 million illegals into the country?"

[33:06] Rahm Emanuel: "We are a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants. You can’t allow disorder at the border and assume there’s respect for the process."

Immigration policy is another focal point of the discussion. Emanuel criticizes the Biden administration's handling of border security, arguing that lax enforcement has led to increased illegal immigration and strained resources. He calls for a balanced approach that upholds legal immigration laws while addressing the humanitarian aspects of immigration.

[35:13] Rahm Emanuel: "The border should never allow to be out of control. We should have a discussion about legal immigration because there's a wedge in the Republican Party."

Emanuel highlights the bipartisan need for comprehensive immigration reform, suggesting that Democrats should engage more effectively with legal immigration processes to regain trust among working-class voters.

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Laquan McDonald Case and Transparency

[37:18] Megyn Kelly: "When Rahm was mayor of Chicago, there was an officer-involved shooting of Laquan McDonald. There was a tape kept quiet for a year, which affected his reputation."

[38:32] Rahm Emanuel: "I own that. Responsibility not only to fix it but to also get the city in a better place."

Megyn Kelly brings up the controversial handling of the Laquan McDonald case during Emanuel's mayoralty in Chicago. Emanuel acknowledges the missteps in releasing the video footage late, expressing regret and taking responsibility for the delayed transparency. He discusses the complexities of balancing legal investigations with political accountability.

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Post-Interview Analysis with MK Media Podcast Hosts

After Emanuel’s interview, Megyn Kelly is joined by Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, and Dan Turntine from the MK Media Podcast network to dissect and critique the conversation.

Overall Impressions

• Dan Turntine: Praises Emanuel’s candidness and strategic approach, particularly on economic and immigration issues. However, he notes Emanuel's hesitancy on transgender topics may alienate progressive voters.

  [53:03] Dan Turntine: "He had good answers. Even on immigration. Rahm ... he did very well."

• Link Lauren: Criticizes Emanuel for appearing out of touch and lacking charisma, making him an unlikely nominee in the current Democratic landscape dominated by younger, more progressive figures.

  [54:36] Link Lauren: "He looks like politics as usual... I just didn't find him that likable."

• Mark Halperin: Acknowledges Emanuel’s talent but questions his ability to connect with the Democratic base and compete with more dynamic candidates. He points out Emanuel’s performance lacked the necessary energy and directness.

  [55:35] Mark Halperin: "He's talented, but he's not in their league. He showed his best and his worst."

Key Critiques

1. Handling of Transgender Issues: Emanuel’s reluctance to fully align with the party's progressive stance on transgender rights is seen as a potential vulnerability in primary races.

   [20:00] Rahm Emanuel: "As it relates to sports... No, thank you."

2. Engagement with the Base: Concerns are raised about Emanuel’s ability to rally the Democratic base, which increasingly favors candidates with strong stances on social issues.

   [58:04] Link Lauren: "This is a guy who wants to be the Democratic nominee... he was crosswise with the base."

3. Economic and Educational Policies: While Emanuel's policies are well-articulated, his delivery may not resonate with voters seeking passionate advocacy and clear solutions.

   [30:26] Rahm Emanuel: "Branch of armed forces... vocational education."

4. Crisis Management: Emanuel’s past handling of crises, such as the Laquan McDonald case, is scrutinized for transparency and accountability.

   [38:32] Rahm Emanuel: "I own that. Responsibility not only to fix it but to also get the city in a better place."

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Discussion on Tulsi Gabbard and Epstein Scandal

The latter part of the episode shifts focus to Tulsi Gabbard's controversial claims regarding the Epstein scandal and the alleged manipulation of intelligence reports by the Obama administration.

• Dan Turntine: Expresses skepticism about Gabbard's assertions, emphasizing the well-documented attempts by Russia to influence the 2016 election.

  [80:35] Dan Turntine: "Russia tried to influence the election... they bought ads on YouTube, they hacked email."

• Link Lauren: Questions the credibility and timing of Gabbard’s revelations, suggesting they are attempts to distract from more significant narratives.

  [86:05] Link Lauren: "If you think about it, he shouldn't be the one deciding these things because they're bad as good friends."

• Mark Halperin: Highlights the potential conflicts of interest and the lack of concrete evidence supporting Gabbard's claims.

  [90:19] Mark Halperin: "He should really be recused from this in terms of the public interest and confidence in decision making."

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Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with Megyn Kelly and her guests reflecting on the challenges facing Democratic candidates like Rahm Emanuel in balancing progressive ideals with pragmatic strategies to win elections. The consensus underscores the difficulty Emanuel may face in reconciling his centrist positions with the party's evolving priorities, particularly on social issues.

Notable Quotes:

• Rahm Emanuel on Education: "We now have the worst reading scores in 30 years... This is tomorrow. These are our kids." [12:35]

• Rahm Emanuel on Immigration: "We are a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants. You can’t allow disorder at the border and assume there’s respect for the process." [33:06]

• Mark Halperin on Emanuel's Performance: "He's talented, but he's not in their league." [55:35]

• Link Lauren on Party Dynamics: "He looks like politics as usual... I just didn't find him that likable." [54:36]

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Conclusion

Episode 1112 provides a comprehensive look into Rahm Emanuel's views on pivotal issues facing the Democratic Party and the nation. While Emanuel presents well-thought-out policies on education, immigration, and economic revitalization, his ability to navigate internal party dynamics and resonate with a diverse electorate remains uncertain. The post-interview analysis by MK Media Podcast hosts highlights significant challenges Emanuel would face in a presidential race, emphasizing the evolving landscape of Democratic politics and the necessity for candidates to embody both progressive values and pragmatic solutions.

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For more insightful discussions and political analysis, tune into future episodes of The Megyn Kelly Show on SiriusXM.

Transcript

[Megyn Kelly]

Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show coming to you live today from the Sirius XM headquarters in New York City. We are only six months into President Trump's historic second term, but that does not stop speculation about who who's going to run for president in 2028. I gave a speech, as you guys know, last week out in Vail and everyone there wanted to know who's the likely next Republican and who's the likely next Dem. I don't have a crystal ball, but I keep seeing the same names you guys are seeing. And over on Team Blue, one name keeps coming up is Rahm Emanuel. Okay? He's the former Chicago mayor. He was Obama's one time White House chief of staff. He certainly has a top shelf political resume and is deeply connected to the Democrats massive fundraising operation. And unlike some of the loons over on the other side, he's a centrist. He's an actual centrist. We've talked about his potential candidacy many times here on the Megyn Kelly Show. Is he too centrist for his party? He's made a lot of enemies inside the Democratic Party over the years and we'll ask him about how that might affect his potential chances. A lot of you may have some kind of extra car just sitting around. Maybe it's an older model you don't drive anymore. Maybe it's that second vehicle collecting dust in the driveway. Or maybe, yes, it's the one that hasn't moved in months and you're not even sure it still runs. Whatever it is, if you are not using it, you could be donating it. And here's a better idea than letting it rot. Donate it to Cars for Kids. That's Cars with a K. They've been doing this for over 30 years, taking a million vehicle donations by this point. That's amazing. And they make the process super easy for you. You're gonna wonder why you didn't do it sooner. Free towing, fast pickup, no hassle, and you get a tax deductible receipt. You donate your car, running or not, and Cars for Kids will turn it into funding for children's programs across the country. And let's not Forget the jingle, 1-877-cars-for kids. I don't totally remember the exact 1-877-cars- for kids. I would sing it but I don't remember the tune. But yes, I remember the commercials. And this is one of them go to cars4kids.org MK that's cars with a K. Carsforkids.org MK K. It's fast, it's smart and it helps kids. Carsforkids.org MK donate your car today. Joining me now to discuss his life and career and future potential political career is Rahm Emanuel. Rahm, welcome.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

Great to have you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Thanks for having me.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what are you doing here on the Megyn Kelly show?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I got a free hour. I thought I'd just come by, swing by. Yeah, I thought there was lunch. I thought we were going to have, we're going to have brunch or something.

[Megyn Kelly]

It will be, we'll have ice cream, we'll have bon bons to talk about.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The issues, talk about things.

[Megyn Kelly]

But you, you know, a lot of Democrats won't come on this show because they don't want to talk to somebody like me. So why would you?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I mean you kind of started it because you've brought me up before and I thought, well, if you're gonna bring me up a couple times, I'll come on the show. Since my favorite subject is me, I thought I'd do that. No, but to talk about things. And you know, you say from team Blue, which is fair, I get that. But you know, I think you would agree and I think your listeners would do there's Team USA before there's Team Blue and Team Red.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know we see everything through the political lens just cause that's what we do every day.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So that's why. And people have opinions. I'm gonna talk about what I think and also kind of just rip the mask off.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, let's start with this because I came of age as a reporter at FOX News and my show, there's.

[Rahm Emanuel]

A ten step program for that.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm not looking to recover, though there were some years where I was and my friend Sean Hannity used to refer to you every night as Rahm Dead Fish Emanuel. And there is a story behind that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

What happened?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, so you got a. I don't know how much time, but I'll cycle it fast. 1988 Chair I'm political director of the Democratic Congressional Campaign. Political. And it's the presidential year. George Washington Kempsey, upstate New York, we have this.

[Megyn Kelly]

Those are my.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. Dave Schwartz, county clerk of the county. And he said that if he gets within a single digit he's going to take a second mortgage. We go from 36 down, 24 down, you know, blah blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden A poll comes back and it was, you know, five polls in a row. He's just four or five points, six points, nearing it nearer and nearing it. And it blows up 18 and about four. And so he says, forget about it. It's like nine days out.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wait, wait, refresh me. Who's winning and who's losing? The Republicans winning.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The Republicans winning. But the Democrats closing in consistently over two months.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, he's going to Dave.

[Dan Turntine]

And.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Then goes blows back out 18 points. And the campaign manager figures out that the pollster had pulled the wrong group.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, gosh.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And obviously we weren't going to win a lot of races, but to symbolically win in 1988, Jack Kemp's seat would have bigger than a single district. It would have big national import. And it was too late then with seven days to go to really impact, Dave Schwartz goes on to lose by a few points in a presidential year. So myself and a number of people sent the Democratic pollster a dead fish for costing us a seat. And I happen to sign a note. It was great working with you, et cetera. So the pollster comes back after two weeks. The dead fish was in a box.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, God.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And opens it up stinking Da, da, da. Sends me this long eight page, single spaced letter of how horrible was work for me. And then this moment in time becomes kind of mythological of that.

[Megyn Kelly]

So that's where did you like it? Did you like the reputation or you don't like it?

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's I, you know, like all things, not you. Just because you work at Fox doesn't capture who you are. Doesn't capture who I am. When it comes to my kids, I'm quick to a tear. You wouldn't know that it comes to other people's kids. I'm also quick to a tear. I get very emotional. My kids always say, you're not allowed to talk about us, Grandpa or Dad. And on the other hand, I did it, so I own it. And I did do it because he cost us a seat, because he made a mistake. And I'm unmerciful in that sense when it came to winning.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, this is probably why I was.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That maybe also not to interrupt you.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, go ahead.

[Rahm Emanuel]

This is your show, after all. Is I'm a middle child. And I always joke that middle children wrote a book, War or Peace. We could do either one.

[Megyn Kelly]

But I think this is actually to your advantage in capturing this domination because I think the country likes a strong man, even though we were kind of pretending we didn't for a while. And I think Democrats are in need of a strong man. I mean, I think too many in the party have gone along with the like. No, we have to be, you know, everyone's toxically masculine and we have to overcorrect the other way.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And they keep putting out, I don't know the words. Takumba. Yeah. So here's my thing is one is when I, having worked for both President Clinton and President Obama, and if you look at it, and also an avid reader of presidential history, history and in general, there are three qualities a president and a presidential candidate have to project strength, confidence, and optimism. Nobody, if you look at history, Kennedy versus Nixon, just go through it. We never nominate the weaker or the more indecisive or the less optimistic. Just full blown second. And then that's on a comparative basis. And second, winning is important. And I do think there's a currency in our party, and this is my theory of the case, at least, where both candor, authenticity and strength have a currency and have a blame. I kind of say that. And then there was an article the other day, and I forgot what paper was either the Washington Post or Politico that said Democrats were studying authenticity. Well, you can't study authenticity. Right. That's such a kind of like, what's wrong? You can't manufacture your authenticity. You either are who you are or you're not. And I'm comfortable with who I am.

[Megyn Kelly]

They're studying too. How to speak to young men.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you know why they're doing that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, one is there's a simple. They've lost it with young men for a whole host of reasons. And the other thing is because for you date your time there. I said basically Covid forward, maybe even a little before that, our party had everybody, including ourselves, walking on eggshells like it was so PC, you couldn't even, God forbid you had thought privately to yourself and you were scared and jumped and literally you had this kind of flinch all the time. And that's ridiculous. And people did not. And not just young men. It was also, if you look at the data, even young women were tired of basically just a PC type thinking and talking about stuff. And also this idea that you had to walk on eggshells. But the truth is Republicans have the same kind of thing where people jump on them all the time, et cetera, inside their own party.

[Megyn Kelly]

They're not PC, though. It's for different issues. I mean, if you criticize President Trump within the Republican Party, depending on who you're talking to, you could get blowback though I think Republicans are more fractured and always have been than Democrats. It's always, I feel like Democrats stick together.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You know, we both admire the other party's sense of loyalty.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you feel like Democrats are more fractured internally in general as a group than Republicans are?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, it's kind of Mark Twain's original. I'm not part of no organized party. I'm a Democrat. Look, I think Democrats, as you can see recently have a little bit of a firing squad in the circle. Take a look recently, people, you can say whatever you want. And I have my disagreements, a lot of them, countless with President Trump. But he has brought us a level of discipline and loyalty. Take a look at this on the big beautiful bill, which I have my own criticisms of. People have voted for something they criticized and now as soon as they've done it, they're trying to airbrush the record. Take a look at Senator Hawley. He's now introduced trying to eliminate all the Medicaid cuts that he just voted for.

[Megyn Kelly]

That was a big deal.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So has the president brought loyalty? There's an example a of what kind of loyalty he's brought.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you feel like the Dems have changed on the PC, the over the top PC language police? I mean, because that's trickled down. I know you cared deeply about education. That's trickled down into my kids. Single digit education all the way up through high school.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Some elements, yes. And some elements. This is what does when you get to education. I mean, to me, you know, at another point in my life early, before I decided to go into public service or politics, I was going to be an early childhood educator. That's what interested me. My dad was a pediatrician. It was something that drew me. And there is this kind of, you know, the fundamentals of education we have missed. We now have the worst reading scores in 30 years worth math scores. And we're focused on everything but the most important thing, which is why you have three children. I have three children. Why parents send kids to school to support the type of education we also try to do at home. And we've gotten focused, as I said, things like bathroom access rather than classroom excellence. We've gotten focused and I'm sensitive to one person's pronoun versus the other 35 kids in the class that don't know what a pronoun is. And I'm sorry, 35 kids not knowing what a pronoun is. Having your worst reading scores and Math scores in 30 years. We have a crisis on hand going back to Ronald Reagan's time where Bloom wrote the report A Nation at crisis. We're back to where we started and we better focus on the priority. This is tomorrow. These are our kids. And I do think not just Democrats, but everybody from the naming of a school to bathroom access to who's playing in what sports. And the fundamental. We've lost sight of the, you know, the forest for the trees. And I think that's really. And we're supposed to be the adults and take care of our kids and nurture them.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't disagree. We need to work on the basic reading and math scores. But I feel like the Democrats are the ones who introduce things like pronouns and the bathroom access. And those of us on what I call the side of sanity stood up to say, no, you're not putting your 6 foot tall boy in my daughter's 8th grade soccer class or gym. Gym class. And that doesn't make me the one trying to ignore what's important about math and reading. It's a Democrat created problem.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, let me back you up a little. Not wrong about those examples. And we have a. And I want to say one thing here and I do a shout out for Mississippi. It's called the Mississippi Miracle. Ten years ago they started this very tough demographics. They're reading excellence. Unbelievable. Alabama on math. And I would nationalize that. I would say we're taking this at large because they've shown with some of the toughest constituencies, poor kids, children from black single parent homes, black kids to make major gains in both math and reading. That's a B. Yes, Democrats played a role, but there's also politicization, culture wars by Republicans on what topics we're allowed to talk about how we're allowed to talk about them. Do I think Democrats led that in kind of this whole pronoun debate? No doubt. And that's why they basically. And it's gotten us sidetracked and we're stuck in a cold. Not only a party, but more importantly a country. And it's why and to be honest, I have my own view on what I would do on education. I call it turd if I could T for technology. And we should get kids ready with AI capabilities A for attendance. We have a massive post Covid attendance problem. It's triple digits from where it was. And I would have a national more than 7%. You repeat the clique.

[Megyn Kelly]

And absenteeism in a lot of the big cities is up to 30% right now.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You have kids graduating high school with a 20% absentee rate. That means they're not graduating, they don't have the skills to go on to college. And it's going to be remedial education. We're pretending right R for reading and using the Mississippi example to blow it up nationally, take it to every state and t for truth. Parents should know where their kids are, every grade level on national standards and where their kids schools are meeting those national levels for every grade. To me, if you do that type of thing, we can start to focus again on the most important thing. Why I as a parent of three, why you as a parent of three, why a parent of two, one, whatever, send those kids to school. It's why parents move. Like as I can say as a mayor of the city of Chicago, you know how I knew a school was neighborhood was doing well. On the real estate form, they would say they're here in this school district. That meant that school district became a magnet for that area. And to me that's the most important thing because we live in a time where you earn what you learn. And we need to ensure that every child has a chance to live up to their potential. And it starts at school. But I would also, I fundamentally believe this. There are three doors a child walks through that will explain their future. The front door of the home, the front door of the school and the front door of the place of worship. And if those three doors are aligned, I don't care your zip code, I don't care your family background, I don't care your income. That child's got a future.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, I love hearing that. And I think we need to get back to that kind of a focus. I just, I have my doubts because my own experience has been with a, you know, a rising, as they say, about to go into 6th grade, 9th grade and 10th grade ERs is there's just been so much ideological nonsense shoved down their throats. And we came out of New York City privates. That's where we were up until we fled in 2021 to get away from that and move to Connecticut. But it was so over the top rom I mean, you want them to focus on reading. Now obviously, New York City private schools are elite schools. They don't have to worry about reading scores and math generally there. But my point is in these schools, my boy school, they took three weeks to devote to transgenderism. Three weeks at an all boys school trying to get these boys to spend time on whether you're sure you're a boy. Might you not be totally sure? Raise your fist. 5 if you're totally sure.

[Link Lauren]

4.

[Megyn Kelly]

If you're only a little. I mean, it was crazy showing them videos of men and boys and skirts and dresses and makeup. Crazy indoctrination. And it's not just New York City, you know, so it's like to me, it's so much more than a culture war. You're messing with a child's mental health when it's abusive.

[Rahm Emanuel]

There's. Look again. I'm gonna get back the three doors. Your kids are going to be okay. They come from a loving. I don't know you. They come from a loving home and they have the support. They basically. School backs up the education of child, which is my one. If I can take a side note, I totally hate this term homeschooled. Every child's homeschooled. Every child. It's a horrible term because it assumes that. No, every child's homeschooled. The school reinforces the capabilities that the home nurtures. And the other door, the place of worship, which is important for a child's total character development.

[Megyn Kelly]

Very true.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, now, was and is and does it continue cultural wars in. Yeah, it does. I happen to think it happens on both sides. That's the way I look at it. Et cetera. Things that like topics like slavery that are totally kind of trying to be airbrushed out of history books. That's a cultural war. You may not see it the same. I think you do. The fact is we can teach kids and we should basically focus on the fundamentals and get back to the fundamentals. I do think as it relates to. And I did this as Mayor, 2016Ambassador. I worked with. You got an issue and you're working through on your pronoun, et cetera. I respect that I come from an inclusive kind of culture, but it is not the preoccupation for the rest of the class. The rest. The preoccupation for the class.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you want the schools to stop pushing that stuff?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, here's my thing. I get. Look, in 2016, I signed and passed an ordinance to city council as it relates to bathroom access. But my focus as mayor was on graduation rates.

[Megyn Kelly]

But in that, just to be clear, in that you were on the side of the trans people having access to the bathroom of choice.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, we dealt with that.

[Megyn Kelly]

It was an issue, I'll give you that. Trump was also on that same side back in 2016. But has change. Have you changed?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No. My position. No, not from an inclusive standpoint. My point is, though it's not the dominant issue.

[Megyn Kelly]

I get it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And so to me, but to a.

[Megyn Kelly]

Lot of us, it's really important.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I get that. And you'll make choices.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, that's why I'm trying. I'm trying to nail you down on where you are.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I got what you're trying to do. And I'm trying to be the ballet dancer. I was.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know, but, you know, if you're gonna really run for this position.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, but here's the thing.

[Megyn Kelly]

You're have to take a position.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Here's the thing. I'll give you an example. When I was in ambassador to Japan, trans people working in embassy, we worked on what our job was. We didn't. That wasn't the focus. I respected. What. You've made a choice. And also they're adult. You're talking about kids slightly. Very different.

[Megyn Kelly]

Very, very different.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And a parent has a right to speak up at the school about this. My. My point though, on this whole subject omega we are talking about. Let me give you example. You were spending now, I don't know, eight minutes on this. There's 50 million.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's only because you won't give me a straight answer.

[Rahm Emanuel]

We can move on.

[Megyn Kelly]

If you give me a straight answer.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'll give you a straight answer.

[Megyn Kelly]

Let me give you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Let me get kids go to public schools, to schools in elementary education in America, we're talking about 0.01%.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, I get it. But I know.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't think it's.

[Megyn Kelly]

But I know people who have been hurt by the boys who are participating in the sports and so on. And they matter.

[Rahm Emanuel]

As a father of both a son and two girls, they are fundamentally physically different. And we have to under. We have to. That's just biology. And get that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So as it relates to sports.

[Megyn Kelly]

So let me just ask you a couple of things quickly. So do you believe boys should be able to play in girls sports?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

Do you believe that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Is this the round robin?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. We'll do a quick rapid fire and then we can move fastest. Okay. Do you believe that kids under the age of 18 should be able to be put on puberty blockers than cross sex hormones?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think parents have to make that decision themselves. I think that is too. A child is too young at 18 to make that decision. Has to be made with a family and that choice. I think before somebody makes a life decision, they have to think twice about that.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you disagree then with the Tim Walsh policy in Minnesota where a child who doesn't get affirmed by his parents can go into Minnesota and get jurisdiction there and get the Parental decision. Overruled.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. Look, I think these are life decisions, and I'm also slightly both. I have two minds, not two minds, but two strains that influence an opinion. One, there's a life decision and a child can't make that decision. You have to have some moral development and character and judgment and foundation for that. Two, parents have to be involved in that, and I think that's for them to make. I don't think the public should be in that space.

[Megyn Kelly]

What if. I mean, there are some parents out there who are completely whacked in the head. There really are. They're not.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, that's not news, is it? But it's not. Just.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, no, it's not news. But to me, it's terrifying because I.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Look, I. In the other. I left this out, but I want to repeat it is. I have a son and two daughters, and they are physically different. And that's why, when it comes to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Sports, why did all the Democrats bail off of that point? A couple came out right after the election and they said what you just said, and then they got browbeaten and then they started.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And then you got the answers in the question. I mean, that's not ever scared me. And, you know, I used to say this to President Clinton and President Obama, sound is not always fury. Sometimes it's just sound. And don't assume just because somebody's screaming at you, they represent more than their own voice.

[Megyn Kelly]

Should we be putting men in female prisons? Men claiming they're women?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

And. All right, here's my last one for you. Can a man become a woman?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Can a man become a woman? Not.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, thank you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's so easy. Why don't more people in your party just say that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Because I'm now going to go into a witness protection plan.

[Megyn Kelly]

My money's on you. I think you'll be fine. No, it's just so nice to hear the truth.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. We spent too much time on this without qualifications. Yeah, well, it's just. It just can't happen.

[Megyn Kelly]

Let's talk about.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm not saying medically. I'm just saying it can't happen.

[Megyn Kelly]

I got it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Let's talk about our cities.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay.

[Megyn Kelly]

And nafta, because I know you were. You had a role in nafta. And NAFTA has become so controversial now, this North American Free Trade Agreement that had the net result of shipping a bunch of American manufacturing jobs overseas or down to Mexico. And it's become super controversial with both parties. You can look back and find, you know, in Depth articles in the New York Times and of course over on National Review and the Wall Street Journal about what this has done to American manufacturing. My friend Tucker and many others have made this like a central plank that they want in discussions, which is how bad American cities have become. You know how you step out of the train station at Union Station in Washington and you're stepping over homeless people? You know, I went out for a premiere of a TV show in la, literally stepping over homeless encampments just to get to the building. Like open air drug markets in some cities in California and further north in the Pacific Northwest. Here in New York City, you know, you've got human excrement on the street. You've got trash cans constantly overflowing.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And that's why New York needs alleys like Chicago.

[Megyn Kelly]

Chicago. Don't even get started. Listen, Chicago had a heyday. I lived there. I was there for five years under Mayor Daily. Those days are behind it. But this is my principal question to you, okay? Because Tucker and many others will use that as an opening to say, and therefore, why are we giving money to Ukraine? And I get that point. But I think, you know, there's another question to be asked which is, does it have to do with federal money at all? Is the condition of our cities really to blame on the feds or is it to blame on Democrat mayors in those cities and decisions like NAFTA that outshipped all the jobs that kept them fed?

[Rahm Emanuel]

So let's go. You got like seven questions there. So let me try to peel through all eight answers. 1. First, let me give a shout out that's being lost in the national debate to cities. We're on course right now. And I talked to the mayor of Baltimore, Birmingham, Little Rock and Cleveland in the usa, probably the lowest homicide rate in recorded history. Baltimore's experienced the lowest homicide rate right now since 1968. So while they're.

[Megyn Kelly]

How's Chicago doing?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Chicago's also. Reduction. Also.

[Megyn Kelly]

But come on.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Wait, no, wait, no, wait. Look, I'm with you on homeless. I get the open drug market. Nobody's been more outspoken about that. And you can go through my tenure, but that doesn't obscure or brush out. And I disagree with you on this one point, that crime is on both homicide rates, violent and also property crimes on historic lows. It's a fact that's happening.

[Megyn Kelly]

They said that last year and it was debunked by the FBI.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, the FBI numbers just. Anyway, you can look at the. We're going to. You and I are going to Disagree to disagree on this one. It is on course for historic low levels now as it relates to homeless encampments. I think municipalities, mayors have been way too permissive in a culture as it relates also to drug markets. Way too permissive in a culture not just for businesses, but most importantly for families and for children giving out needles. And I think that the example of mayor in at least what I've read, the mayor in San Francisco, I think has got now the right approach to how to handle both of these issues. And it's also pretty clear I can say this as ambassador to Japan came back for the Asia Pacific conference in San Francisco. When a city wants to clear out homelessness, all of a sudden it happens when you have a bunch of foreign dignitaries. So when, when their own residents want it. You should actually be as vigilant as you were when foreign dignitaries come.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, and you tell me Japan doesn't have this problem.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's a. They also have a different type of social system and a different. That's a longer conversation than when the show permits second piece. And I would just not have a permissive culture in that. And Portland has now realized the wrongs of their ways. Parts of Seattle, you cannot allow a zone for open quote unquote drug markets. It then becomes a permission slip to a whole host of other type of social and criminal aspects. So that's a, that's a massive. Don't go there. Now, two things that I think are really important. One is I think there was as the president himself kept basically the structures of NAFTA and after the by the end of President Clinton's term, just a fact, there were 300,000 more manufacturing jobs than when he came in. Now, I think there was a mistake made and no doubt about it, you can't leave Peoria, Battle Creek, Racine, Kenosha to confront on their own. There was not enough support, not enough investment. America's always succeed, always succeed when you invest both in America and Americans. That's why I'm big about education, big about the investments in technology and in our strengths. The bigger challenge, I would say is not so much NAFTA, but is what happened with China. Yep, that's where you really had a fundamental. And big swaths of America were left basically to fend for themselves against the prc, the Chinese Communist Party and their strategy. And that's where you've seen the devastation. Now do I think everything should be cleaned up? You've learned certain things after a certain point vis a vis nafta, et cetera. I do Both parties have kept it in place, the basic structure, because it's better to have, as Ronald Reagan said, two neighbors that are allies working with you because that's a large economy and also brings up a capacity to focus on other parts of the world. Second, though, China coming into the WTO with all of us, hoping they would stay as strategic competitors, not realizing that President Xi in 2012 decided that China was going to become a strategic adversary and that unchecked, as you can see right now, both with the United States and the European Union dealing with China, that is where we've had a major devastation to the United States.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what would you say to, you know, men in those cities like Detroit wondering where their manufacturing job went? What's the Rahm Emanuel plan to bring it back?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, one is build, baby, build. And my basic point is when we are short right now, not tomorrow, not looking to the future, which we are also short, massive amount of investment in carpenters, electricians, plumbers, operating engineers, the whole building trade. You can't AI that away and you can't get it to China.

[Megyn Kelly]

How do we do that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

So I'm going to tell you one thing.

[Megyn Kelly]

High school level.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. I'm going to tell you one thing we did in Chicago that I think should be a national program and you have to hire career counselors, et cetera. You could not get. We made it a requirement. Starting your freshman year, we gave you support. You cannot get your high school diploma without showing a letter of acceptance from either a college, community college, a branch of the armed forces or vocational school. You had not just the Kelley children and Emanuel children, but every child had to have a post high school plan. We changed the high school from a diploma driven to a career college driven. And what comes next? There you ensure that every child can invest. And let me say one side note. If you look at the American history, there are three great periods of economic growth all underpinned by one thing. There's the land grant colleges under Lincoln. There are the universal high school education at the turn of the century and the GI Bill. You could also add probably a fourth NASA in the science and engineering and basic STEM as a challenge to Sputnik. When you invest in Americans, America succeeds.

[Megyn Kelly]

Just to be clear. Just to be clear, because there's a lot of my audience understandably has questions about whether the modern day college education is a worthwhile.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I didn't say college, I said college. Community college.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Branch of armed forces.

[Megyn Kelly]

Let me finish the question. So I wanted to pick up on the last thing you said, which is vocational education. So what would that look like? How to fix cars, how to go.

[Rahm Emanuel]

To beauty school, everything from carpentry, electrician. I'd be a operating engineer, bricklaying, painting.

[Megyn Kelly]

But can you do it in high school? Like in my high school in upstate New York, we had the BOCES program. And you could actually do that in your 9th through 12th grade education.

[Rahm Emanuel]

We created a high school in Chicago for exactly that. And you also. One of the things we did in our community colleges, we had dual credit, dual enrollment. So we brought community college classes into high schools, and kids went from high school back to the community college. A lot of the community colleges had carpentry, they had electrical.

[Megyn Kelly]

Amazing as we need.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But it's a requirement to get your own high school diploma. Your kids are going to know because they grew up in your home. High school is just one step for a lot. They're going to know where you. If you ask your children, where are you going to be in four years or whatever, they have a plan. I just got to be honest. In the city of Chicago, which is true across the country, not just Chicago, some kids, four weeks is their plan, not four years. And making them think past high school, making it a requirement, stepping in where it's not happening at home, socializing this idea, starting your freshman year is essential. That's number one. Number two, I happen to think investing dramatically in the most promising technologies of tomorrow ensures that America stays competitive. And so that's part of not only you got to build these data centers, you got to build the submarines that we need to confront China. And we don't have that capacity.

[Megyn Kelly]

We're not even really thinking about it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, we're not thinking about it. We're not investing in it. And the truth is the mistake of the last decade. The best thing I can say about President Xi is he woke us up about a decade ahead of time. Now, are we making the most use of the time? Absolutely not. We have to start investing. Quantum computing, AI, biomedical, take alternative energy, take all the promising technologies of tomorrow. Massive investment in the research side, what I call the brains part, and massive invest in the brawn side. So we have the capacity to make the most of this. And if you start with AI education in school, every child, every student will have the basics and fundamentals to succeed. As you look around the corner, unless.

[Megyn Kelly]

The AI has already eaten us all by the time the children get this program. Let's talk about immigration, because this is another issue in schools and elsewhere that kids are dealing with. I mean, in New York right now. It's crazy the number of translators they have to have in the public schools with the kids who are American born are having to deal with. Why do you think Joe Biden let between 10, 20 million illegals into the country?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. So there's one is. Let me start with what I think the challenges and I'm not sure why Biden did that or the Biden White House. You're also, and I want to preface because not your audience knows this, my father is an immigrant. My grandfather on my mother's side. 1914 comes to America. We're a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants. That's who we are. And we're clear about the law. You break the law, the law is going to follow you. That should be simple. And we're also nation immigrants. We want people from around the world who want a better tomorrow. People like from Asia, from Latin and America and Africa who want to come here and start a better future.

[Megyn Kelly]

Legally.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, legally. Now that's number one. Number two, and I just note recent Gallup data all about how the numbers on immigration have flipped on Trump. The people reacted to the chaos on the border. Now, President Trump went from basically being the voice of order to the inspiration behind disorder. They do not like what he's doing in Los Angeles and around the country. They see him now, the inspiration behind disorder. And I think if I was in for the Democrats, we have no disagreement on fight confronting illegal immigration. We should be forward. Let's have a discussion about legal immigration because there's a break.

[Megyn Kelly]

But you didn't answer my question. Why did Biden let 10 to 20 million illegal immigrants?

[Rahm Emanuel]

They were not focused on what they should have been focused on. The border should never allow to be out of control. Now, you're also.

[Megyn Kelly]

He opened it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You're also talking to the person that for President Clinton was responsible for Operation Gatekeeper in San Diego, Operation Safeguard in Nogales, Arizona. The border should be secure.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you disagree with what Joe Biden did.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I disagree with allowing chaos at the border where people can flaunt the laws as again my north stars on immigration. We're a nation of laws and we're a nation of immigrants. You have to honor both. You can't allow disorder at the border and assume there's going to be any respect for the rest of the process.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Do you think would you change any of President Trump's border enforcement mechanisms if you were elected president?

[Rahm Emanuel]

The border enforcement. No. I do think it's mistake to call out and I say this Five years. President Trump's first term, the first six months of his. The only place he's ever called out US Troops is on an American city. And I think that's absolutely wrong. I do not. You have a prisoner who's illegal. Pick them up. If they're in the orange jumpsuit, take them.

[Megyn Kelly]

We'd love to, but the sanctuary cities don't allow it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, no, but here's my point. A lot of states, all the states basically participate in making sure if you have a criminal element who is illegal, fine.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, thank you. The sanctuary cities don't allow that. You know, that's true.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Megan. Let me then go farther. You have people going to Home Depot to get a job. That's not the problem here. You have people trying to go to a place of worship at the Catholic Church. That's not the problem here. Border stuff. I said it. Problem is, and this is why President Trump's also numbers have flipped on this in the country, not only Republicans and immigrants.

[Megyn Kelly]

I've seen the numbers. The latest Gallup show. And the reason is, shows us a shift in support on President Trump and the deportation program.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And that's what we're talking about now.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's right.

[Megyn Kelly]

You've endorsed the border policies, but not the deportation.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, and I'm also to then get back to where I was. There is a split in the Republican Party on legal immigration.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, there is. Chamber of Commerce. Republicans still want.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And if Democrats were smart, said we're good with you on illegal as it relates to the border. Now, let's talk about legal, because that's where the wedge is in the Republican Party.

[Megyn Kelly]

They haven't, though. You know. They haven't.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I'm aware of that.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's what makes you a little different. And some would say therefore not electable by Democrats. Like, I can see Rahm Emanuel, if he gets past the primary, appealing to some more centrist independent types. But that, you know, I had Mark Halpern on the program recently. He's coming on next. And he was saying, you know, your biggest problem is gonna be getting past the primary. Because with the Democrats who have moved to the left, who are endorsing Democratic socialists like Mandami and this guy in Minnesota.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, look, that's what primaries. You know, President Clinton wasn't who we know him to be. President Obama. Primaries will prove something and we'll prove something. As I like to say, given the field, we're all stuck at that big number, 3%. Okay. That's where we are. I'll have to Prove something. But you know, sometimes when you say, let's say just say quote unquote, the progressive left who as you noted, or as Mark has noted, have a problem. Was it the free community college if you earn a B average in high school, you have a problem with. Was it the pre K. It was.

[Megyn Kelly]

The Laquan McDonald tape.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Sorry, was it, was it the minimum wage? Yeah, and the inspector general said that and, and did a report on it.

[Megyn Kelly]

And look, just the audience, let me just tell the audience what that is. So when Rahm was mayor of Chicago, there was an officer involved shooting of a black man named Laquan McDonald. And there was a tape of the incident that was kept quiet, kept not accessible by the public by a decision by you for a year. And then ultimately you can correct me when I'm done. And then ultimately you released it and it did show that the officer was to blame and that he should, he shot when he shouldn't have. And then there was an immediate drop in polling for in support of you by especially the black and Hispanic communities in Chicago. And some have never forgiven you for not releasing the tape earlier.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You can correct me as you're a lawyer, you know what the rules are as it relates in the middle of an investigation. So one let me go all the way to the back. Laquan's uncle, who's a pastor on the west side, big supporter of mine. And there's not a day or a week that goes by that I don't rethink what ifs. And you don't get a do over in politics. You only get lessons learned, applied forward. And I thought I had fixed the system beforehand. And clearly the problems are much deeper and I own that, that's why and I take responsibility for that. And responsibility not only to fix it, but to also get the place of the city in a better place. There were seven attempts at police reform before I got there. This one is finally sticking. And the other thing is, you know, Joe Ferguson, the inspector general went through it said I followed. The problem was I did follow the procedures. That's the problem is they were put in place. And you have kind of two tensions on one side. If you, you got the FBI, U.S. attorney investigating, cities investigating, state is investigating. If you unilaterally make a decision, you hamper a criminal investigation. That officer went served three years. If you don't do it, you only drive the wedge between the police and the community even further. And so you're caught between the Solomon like choice, either one one, you break the law the other one, what I.

[Megyn Kelly]

Hear you saying is you think it's explainable. You think. You think this is not a deal breaker.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, I just.

[Megyn Kelly]

Democrat primary voters.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Look, I have the responsibilities I did when I got Senate confirmed for. For ambassador, Japan. I will explain it. I own it. And if you're looking for 100%, nobody is. But I learned my lessons going forward, and that's going to be true for anybody who's a chief executive tying together.

[Megyn Kelly]

The possibility of you as the Democrat nominee. With our previous discussion on illegal immigration, you may be aware that Hunter Biden has some thoughts on you. Shared with a podcaster I do not know and have never heard of. Hold on a second. I'll tell you who he is. His name is Andrew Callahan, okay? It's a three hour long interview. This guy's a comedian and journalist and YouTuber. And Hunter had some thoughts on you, among other issues, including illegal immigration. Here he is.

[Dan Turntine]

He's somehow convinced all of us that these people are the fucking criminals. White men in America are 45 more times likely to commit a fucking violent crime than an immigrant. And the media says, well, you got David Axelrod and, you know, Rahm fucking Emanuel. So fucking smart. Rahm Emanuel is that we gotta understand that these people are really mad.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And these.

[Dan Turntine]

We got to appeal to these white voters, Ron. The only people that fucking appealed to those fucking white voters was Joe Biden. 81 years old, and he got 81 million votes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And he did because.

[Dan Turntine]

Not because he appeased their fucking Trumpian sense, but because he challenged it. And he said, you can be an 81 year old Catholic from fucking Scranton that doesn't understand it, but still has empathy for transgender people and immigrants. Then nobody said, oh, Joe Biden's going to turn us into a socialist state, no matter how much they said it. But these guys think that we need to run away from all values in order for us to lead.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I say, fuck you. How are we getting those people back.

[Dan Turntine]

From fucking El Salvador?

[Megyn Kelly]

He's got. He's got a potty mouth. Neither you nor I have failed to utter that word in our past. I know this.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But we went 50 minutes here clean.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's a big fan of it. I don't know. I kind of like Rom fucking Emmanuel that could see that on a sign, like a lawn sign for you. Your thoughts on his thoughts about you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm kind of feeling for Axelrod right now. He got thrown down in the gutter with me. I've gotta. Empathy. I don't. I think we're giving this more time than it's due. That's my own view.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, a little empathetic. You have a son who's blinded by his own love for. In effect. And loyalty for his father. And I get that. But not the first phone call I'm gonna make for Strategery Goodyear.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's. He's also been out there and said it there in part that the saying the only reason that the Dems lost the last presidential election is because they weren't loyal to his father.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. Megan, as you probably know, there's a lot of stories about Dems have to now start swearing to look like they're normal or something like that. I was 30 years ahead of my time. I'm like a good bottle of wine.

[Megyn Kelly]

Still not normal.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I mean, I don't. I just. It's not. We spent two minutes. Way too much time.

[Megyn Kelly]

This isn't about Hunter. But I know your brother Ari, according to the Jake Tapper book, was very outspoken about getting Biden off the ticket, saying he cannot do it. We need a plan. Come up with a real plan. You're not your brother's keeper, but you're Joe Biden's ambassador to Japan. Did you share those feelings?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I was appointed by Joe. I was America's ambassador to Japan, so. And that's how I took the role. But I was honored that President Biden selected me. So here's my thing is, look, one, that everybody said, oh, there's a cover up, or whatever, 83% of the American people issued a judgment. If there was a cover up, the American people were in on it because they had their own opinion. Number two, does this look like subtle, quiet, reserved?

[Megyn Kelly]

No.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, so number three, I have a general rule. I mean, just look, Oval offices are very seductive. Been in and out of them with two presidents for eight years. White Houses, one of the challenges they have is not to be as insular as they become. It's pretty clear that both of those qualities played a role here. Now, I slightly disagree with other Democrats. I actually think this was a winnable race. And it's pretty clear if you look at the data, it was a winnable race. And the real challenge, in my view, is why Democrats failed. It was not going to be a blowout race, but you could. The data was there and the capacity was there to win, and the Democrats fumbled it.

[Megyn Kelly]

You think it was winnable with Joe Biden?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, but it was a winnable race.

[Megyn Kelly]

If there had been some sort of a reset.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Look, 70% of the country thought it was headed in the wrong direction. That's kind of architecturally built in for a challenger. But the day Kamala Harris takes over, the Democrats are down. Biden, Harris are down 8. By the time you get to her debate with Donald Trump, she's up three. That's not a statistical error. She was running on the economy, running on what I think is the most important issue, that the American dream is unaffordable. It's inaccessible to the American people and that is unacceptable to us. This shouldn't be that hard. Owning a home has become a struggle. The system is stacked against people. Used to be you're not okay, that's the fun. And we went off on all these other tangentia. They're telling you what the core thing is. And when Kamala Harris spoke to it, she goes up plus three. After the debate, she wanders off into this democracy thing. So in a weird way, when she makes a break with Joe Biden and says I'm going to be the future, I'm going to be change, she but.

[Megyn Kelly]

All the answers of I don't distinguish my agenda at all.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Then basically debate or from the view performance, she basically I'm going to be continuity. She goes down. So to me it tells you that no disrespect to Hunter Button's Hunter Biden's analysis that this was winnable. Now I do think they're below that surface. Forget 2024 for one second. I think the Iraq war, the financial meltdown of 08 China into the WTO unchecked and Covid have fundamentally, fundamentally not only upended our politics, upended our economics, upended our schools and we haven't yet recovered from.

[Megyn Kelly]

Totally agree with that. Every word.

[Rahm Emanuel]

One. Iraq was built on a lie and a deception and people responsible for it have never been held accountable. As somebody who in the Obama administration argued for Old Testament justice, the bankers should have been slapped silly on the South Lawn line them up and just beat the living crap out of them. And they weren't. They were arguing for their bonuses and people lost their homes.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Number three, what we talked about China earlier still applies in this conversation, which is they were cleaning our clocks and we left America basically unilaterally disarmed to face off against China by themselves. And Covid also, and this is where I think Democrats made a mistake. We donned the jacket of the establishment. Follow the science. Follow the science when it's pretty clear, like take schools. Covid as it relates to young kids wasn't what it was related to people that were either both Ill or much older, they're still suffering. And now we have an absentee rate of 20% and we look at our shoes and we don't want to talk about. So when you look at those four things, that is to me, the biggest structural challenges of our society, our economy and our democracy.

[Megyn Kelly]

Here's the thing I have to ask you. How is it possible for a cisgender heteronormative male who happens to be Jewish, to get the Democrat nominee for President in 2025America?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, that's gonna be up to the Democratic voters, but I'm gonna make the best cut. Yeah, I got the number. Don't worry about that. Look, let's take like Jewish. Yes, I do. Because I will say one thing. When I ran for Congress, my predecessors were Dan Rossenkowski, Roman Pachinki, Frank Annunzio, Rob Makojevich Flanagan, and along comes Rahm Israel Emanuel. Same thing. There's only 2% Jewish in the district.

[Megyn Kelly]

But the Dem party has changed on his.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm getting right there. I want to say I've had Nazi insignia sprayed on a fence and I've seen, I still don't know somebody go clean it up. So I've seen the best of people. I've seen people look past, not past faith or more importantly, not past my faith because it is who I am. My name is Rahm Israel Emanuel. Not according to Hunter Biden, but it is really who I am. Okay, so look at that. And my faith and my Jewish education is what led me to public service and I'm very proud of it. Now by way, I am the only person who's ever gone toe to toe with Bibi Netanyahu. He called me a self hating Jew publicly. So I support the state of Israel. I support its existence. I support it as a Jewish democratic nation, a sovereign nation. But I am willing, when I disagree, speak about that. And I've said that. But do I think so? I do. Because in the end of the day, our party believes in both economic kind of equality and also equality in a political system and this country, this idea, and I say this, I want you to hear. My grandfather came here from Ukraine with nothing that his grandson, that he used to call a schmuck, could be both a chief of staff to a president, a senior advisor elected to Congress, the mayor of the city that we called home and then represent America over. This is the greatest country in the world. Not because of my success, but because of the story and the permission that it has allowed somebody whose own grandfather didn't have a bucket to spit in and a window to throw it out of could provide that opportunity. And I'll close on this because we didn't get to this about family. My parents in our family room had my grandmother's purse with her and my two great aunts passports. And on either side of that purse were the black and white photos of my aunts, uncles, cousins on mom and dad's side who never made it to this country. There's nothing subtle in a Jewish home. You are given a gift. It's called the United States of America. You respect that gift and you honor that gift. And that is what I live with. And I think the country as a father with two kids in the armed forces will respect that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Thank you so much. I think your children are wrong. You should talk about your dad and your grandpa and your kids. You nailed it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I gotta thank God it was only a minute because I was close to tears there. And I see the Kleenex right there.

[Megyn Kelly]

Rahm Emanuel, thank you. Thanks for having me. Come back, will you?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, sure.

[Megyn Kelly]

All the best to you. And we'll be right back with Mark. I want to tell you about Daily Look. Their mission is simple. Elevate your style. They work with top brands and emerging designers like A.G. good, American, Kate Spade, Girlfriend Collective and more. Sizes range from extra small to 3x and 0 to 24. Here's how it works. You fill out a style quiz with your particular preferences. Then you receive up to 12 hand selected items at home. Keep what you love, return the rest. Shipping's free both ways. Daily look is the highest rated premium personal styling service for women. You get a dedicated stylist, not an algorithm who curates each box based on your body shape, lifestyle and taste. It's the same stylist every time. Try on premium pieces at home and save time. Visit DailyLook.com and use code Megan for 50% off your first box. It's time to get your own personal stylist with Daily Look. Head to DailyLook.com to take your style quiz and use code Megan for 50% off your order. 50 I say once again, that's DailyLook.com for 50% off. And make sure you use my promo code Megan so they know we sent you. Okay, we've got some friends of the show joining me now to recap what we just saw and talk about all the latest headlines as well. Let's get to it with two of the hosts on the MK Media Podcast network, Mark Halperin, host of Nextup with Mark Halperin And Link Lauren's here too. He's host of Spoton with Link Lauren along with former Democratic strategist Dan Turntine, a co host of the morning meeting on the two way YouTube channel with Mark. Guys, welcome. Great to have you.

[Link Lauren]

Thanks for having us.

[Megyn Kelly]

So fun. I didn't know which hour to look forward to more, but I'm psychedel, sincere.

[Mark Halperin]

It's like game, post game.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, so let's start. Let's first pretend we didn't talk about the Rahm Emanuel interview during break and give me your fresh impressions. Dan, you go first.

[Dan Turntine]

I thought he did great. I mean, I think considering this is like early in the game, no one's gonna be perfect at this point. He had good answers. I thought when you asked him about the workforce and the economy, I thought even on immigration. Right. You heard the echoes of Bill Clinton. We're a nation of laws, a nation of immigrants. He kept coming back to that. When you tried to talk to him about the border and everyone coming in, he said, I don't know why they didn't do it, but they shouldn't have. I thought he did well. I thought the one issue where he was a little bit was the transgender. That's obviously a touchy issue in the party, but I thought that he did very well. And when I think about people who understand what you need to do to win, that is somebody who understands what it takes.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yep.

[Link Lauren]

I think for me, maybe it's a generational difference, but half the electorate is going to be Gen Z and millennials by 2028. And when you think of Rahm Emanuel and you Google him and every picture is him cavorting with the Clintons, the Obamas, the Bidens. He looks like politics as usual and he looks like the embodiment of the swamp. And even in the interview, I felt he came across a little smarmy, trying to control the interview. He was wishy washy on some of the trans stuff. And it's like you're a 65 year old man, you've been in politics for decades, the upper echelons of politics, and you can't give straight answers on these questions that we want. And you kept asking about men in women's restrooms and in girls bathrooms. He said, oh, it's not a dominant issue. Let's move on. That's not a dominant issue. But then Kamala Harris, part of the reason she lost were those swing state ads on taxpayer funded transgender surgeries for inmates. These might not be the dominant issues to use to you and you might think they're culture war issues, but they're still going to galvanize voters. So I just didn't find him that likable.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so he did not get links vote Mark.

[Mark Halperin]

No. And they're both right. I've known Rahm since your senior year in college. So I've known him a long time. Dan is right that Rahm graded on a curve against some of these other people who were talked about his level of sophistication, his level of confidence, his level of understanding the intersection of politics, politics and the press. It's light years ahead of almost any other Democrat not just thinking of running for president, but almost any Democrat active on the national stage. Link's right, too. There are so many issues related to Rahm that make it almost impossible to imagine him actually being the nominee. Not only because he's, as your questions teased out, he's crosswise with the base, but he's yesterday. He's a longtime political figure, made millions in investment banking. He's not on paper what the party is currently looking for. So I think he showed his best and his worst with you. And I think you asked him about all the right issues that teased that out and put it in sharp.

[Megyn Kelly]

It was fascinating. So from my perspective. But I'll say one thing about yesterday before I get to my perspective. So was Joe Biden. He was yesterday and he won. You know, I'm talking about the first time around. So there is the possibility that even though you've got baggage and you've got party affiliations and you've got all the connections for 50 years, no question, you could be the man.

[Mark Halperin]

Walter Mondale was the nominee, too. But we're in a different time, I think. And even from. Even from four years ago.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, we've got mom Donnie now as likely our next mayor here. So they're really going.

[Dan Turntine]

Maybe.

[Megyn Kelly]

Let's hope not. But my own impression was. So I thought we had a very cordial first 48 minutes together. And that's good. I mean, and we kind of laughed about it after the fact that we're sure meeting number two will be a little bit more.

[Mark Halperin]

Was that your first time with him?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. Yeah, it was my first time interviewing him. Got it. No, people like Rahm Emanuel did not come on Fox News. We did not have access to Fox. Yeah. So. But I liked it. You know, we touched on some hot button issues, but we kept it cordial. And I think that's good. I really wanted the audience to get to know him and I wanted to See if he would say normal things to me without me, like beating him over the head or him beating me over the head. And I was amazed at some of his direct answers. Like, yes, he wiggled on the trans thing for quite a while. But in the end, when we did our little lightning round, he did give me a couple of points. Like the men in prison, we have it cut. Here's here, watch.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I have a son and two daughters and they are physically different. And that's why when it comes to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Sports, why did all the Democrats bail off at that point? A couple came out right after the election and they said what you just said and then they got brow beaten.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And then they started the answers in the question. I mean, that's not ever scared me. And you know, I used to say this to President Clinton and President Obama, sound is not always fury. Sometimes it's just sound. And don't assume just because somebody's screaming at you. They represent more than their own voice.

[Megyn Kelly]

Ken, should we be putting men in female prisons? Men claiming they're women?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

And all right, here's my last one for you. Can a man become a woman?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Can a man become a woman? Not.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, thank you.

[Link Lauren]

No.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's so easy. Why don't more people in your party just say that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Because I'm now going to go into a witness protection plan, Izzy.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean that. Listen, you guys know, I realized that wasn't like hugely like a huge breakthrough. We all talk about what's true and what's real every day. But for a guy who wants to be the Democratic nominee, that was pretty bold.

[Link Lauren]

Well, I think the overarching thesis and takeaway from the interview is just how broken the Democrat brand is that a guy goes, men and women are different. And we're like, hooray.

[Megyn Kelly]

Y.

[Link Lauren]

He's like, oh, my God. Men and women have biological differences. We're going, yes. Amazing. This is groundbreaking for Democrats. Like, that's how broken the identity is. But he's gonna have a hard time in the primary because the Democrat party has been co opted by this like, loud, progressive vocal minority and they just keep capitulating to them. So I don't really think he has a prayer. He might have some good ideas and he seems strong on some issues, but I don't think he has a prayer.

[Megyn Kelly]

Does that come back to haunt him?

[Dan Turntine]

No. I mean, I think. Look, the interesting thing.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, it does not come back to haunt him.

[Dan Turntine]

No. And I'll tell you why.

[Link Lauren]

Even hanging out with you might come back to haunt him.

[Dan Turntine]

That's right. There's two things going on. The first is the party after the election said, we know we need to make change. Now. Anytime anyone's attempted to do it, as he said, the base is yelled. Rahm's issue is gonna be both two things. He's gonna have to do these sister soldier moments. The party needs to do sister soldier moments.

[Megyn Kelly]

We can break with your party.

[Dan Turntine]

And he's got that right. I don't worry about that. Rahm's other challenge is he's gonna have to throw some bones to the base and where he chooses to do that, because the problem for Rahm is the energy's in the base and the base can't stand him. You asked him about it. You asked about a very sensitive issue that he has with the black community. He's gonna have to figure out, and I have no doubt he's thinking about this. Where am I gonna lock arms with them and unapologetically charge against Donald Trump and J.D. vance and everybody else, Other candidates, It's the complete opposite. They're inching up to that sister soldier moment. Gavin Newsom, on the podcast with Charlie Kerr, flirted with it. Took so much heat. He then, you know, and was really kind of struggling until the immigration thing propelled him forward within our party, maybe not the general electorate. So, I mean, Rahm's got two things. But again, he thinks about that stuff. He'll be smart about it. He'll be strategic, and I have no doubt when he does, he'll move forward aggressively.

[Mark Halperin]

Let me be honest about Rahm.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Rahm likes to be honest.

[Mark Halperin]

Rahm's talented, right? He's one of the most talented. Paul's. He's not Bill Clinton, he's not Barack Obama, he's not George Bush, and he's not Donald Trump. He's not in their league. He's a super talented staffer, which he once was. He was a super talented candidate for mayor. Super talented DCCC head. He's talented, but he's not their category of talented. So can someone less talented than those four guys, all of whom stood up to their party and appeal to the base, right? Simultaneous make people in the base feel good and stand up to people in the base? That's really hard. I just don't know that Rahm is talented enough to do that, except he's running against a bunch of people who are less talented. So he might be talented enough to do it, but he's not in their league.

[Link Lauren]

But I will say the people he's running against, let's say it's Like AOC Gavin Newsom. They have some star quality and charisma. That's what I was missing. Maybe if I watched it I would get a different feel, but listening to it, it was kind of like low energy. Jeb Bush kind of like that, sort of slow.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't think he's low energy, but it's just like a year.

[Link Lauren]

Yeah. Where's the other gear, though? I guess in this interview it just felt kind of like low to me. And he's kind of like, yeah, I'm thinking about that. So I don't know if he has the star power and charisma to tap into this sort of like populism on the left that the right has had for so long. And then to go to what you mentioned, the reason President Trump caught fire in 2015 and 16 is cuz he was willing to call out the elites and the establishment in his own party, these neocons and who had been running the party for, you know, 15, 20 years. I don't know if Rahm is going to be able to do that because the left likes, but the left. Yeah, but he is one. And the left likes to cast purity test way more than the right. You said one thing we disagree with or we don't like this one little thing. So I think he's gonna have a tough time.

[Megyn Kelly]

He doesn't sound woke. I'm not sure whether any Democrat who's not woke is going to get nominated next time around. The party just does. They're captured by it. It's a cancer, it's metastasized. There's no excising it. I know normies like you, Dan, would like it to be, but I just don't think it can happen.

[Dan Turntine]

The only thing is our party's history. We flirt with these very progressive candidates. Howard Dean, you know, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Sanders in 16 and both of them in 2020. Our history is we back off and go with the safe candidate. Now our party is more left than we were in the past. And at some point that may come to an end, that pattern. But as a party we tend to value victory and who we think has the best chance way more than people I think kind of give us credit for.

[Mark Halperin]

Here's what's cautionary for me. What was the most obvious question you were going to ask him? What was the thing he should be prepared for more than any other about.

[Megyn Kelly]

How he's going to win over his.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, trance. Trance.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, you mean from me, Megan Kelly? Yes, sure.

[Mark Halperin]

So he basically tried to avoid Answering until you wouldn't let him. Right?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes.

[Mark Halperin]

That to me, I mean, how he could have been relative. Maybe he thinks that was the right way to do it, but to me, that seems unprepared. Not just mechanically unprepared, but if he's not ready to confront that issue with you, what's he waiting for?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, you know, for sure I'm going to be asking about that. He also, he. He did, for the record, endorse minors getting puberty blockers into cross sex hormones, meaning they get sterilized for life. They. They lose sexual function as long as their parents agree, which is not what the side of reason believes at all.

[Mark Halperin]

And his bathroom answer wasn't great either.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, because he'd already allowed it.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, but he could say. He could say, on reflection, I think it was a bad idea.

[Dan Turntine]

And you gave him a call without Trump.

[Megyn Kelly]

He did not abandon that. But he did not say that a man could become a woman. And he said men shouldn't be in women's prisons. And he seemed to say men shouldn't be in women's sports.

[Mark Halperin]

He's kidding himself if he thinks I believe he can say, that's not the focus. The focus is on the economy.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's never going to fly with me or anybody else. Like, I'm sorry. Whether it's hubris will decide what the focus is. That's the one advantage of having this job.

[Mark Halperin]

The base will decide, too.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, but I mean, I'm saying, literally, having done all these presidential debates, I'm sorry, I will decide. It is up to me.

[Dan Turntine]

By the way, we're trying to win back working class voters for whom that was a bigger issue than we thought it was. Right. It's just, it's the cultural. Do you understand us? Right. We started losing them culturally in the 90s. We then lost them economically in the last 10 years. We gotta win them back on both fronts.

[Mark Halperin]

And I don't wanna just be negative about it, about him, because, again, I think he's more talented than almost anybody else who might run. What he gave you was a bunch of tactical replies. Megan's gonna ask this. I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna try to change the subject. She didn't change the subject. Now I gotta answer. Did you feel as hard on any of those issues?

[Megyn Kelly]

I liked the last answer about America.

[Mark Halperin]

I'm saying on the top of this, the American stuff's easy. He can do hard on that. There was no, you know, again, don't go back to the question of authenticity. It was all Tactics.

[Megyn Kelly]

I think the education thing is legit to him.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, that's a easy one. It's a real issue. Exactly.

[Mark Halperin]

On the easy ones, he's great. On the hard ones. I thought it was all just tactical.

[Dan Turntine]

The one place I disagree with you, though, Mark, is on the vocational training stuff. I do think he believes in it, which that's easy.

[Mark Halperin]

No one's against vocational training.

[Dan Turntine]

Well, but we fumbled over what we want to do on the economy, like to no end.

[Mark Halperin]

Sure. But he's just. To me, he's not trying to show his heart on those things. He's just trying to get through it.

[Megyn Kelly]

I wonder whether he'll have it improved to the point that he can sell it. Because, look, Gavin Newsom suffers from a different problem. And he was saying we're all at 3%. That's not exactly true. Kamala Harris is at 12. My God. Good luck, Dan.

[Dan Turntine]

Let's go back to Ron.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right after Kamala is Gavin, who's up there, I think singled like maybe nine, and then everybody else is down lower. AOC's up there, but she's. It's not gonna happen. So he's right that, like, there's no real frontrunner and we don't think Kamala Harris is actually gonna run for president again. So it's really him and Gavin maybe lo up there and Gavin Newsom, I don't know, he may be formidable. To me, he's just such an obvious snake oil salesman who will say anything depending on who's across from him. I just think people will be able to see through that from a mile away. And they might like the steady Eddie with a couple sharp elbows. Rahm fucking Emanuel rom dead fish, whatever it is.

[Link Lauren]

Well, my thing with Gavin Newsom is he can't even call his wife. His wife, she's like his partner and she's. He's given the man multiple kids. And then he was against men and women's sports for a minute in the Charlie Kirk interview. He's gone back. Now he's fighting with the doj. Gavin Newsom stands for nothing. So if Rahm Emanuel can have black and white straight up answers for things, just be straight with the American people. And to go to your point, Dan, the left and the mainstream media constantly like to tell Americans what issues are important to them. Oh, trans is a culture war issue. It's not a big deal. Well, these millions of moms turned out for President Trump cuz it was a big deal. Oh, we don't care about seed oils. This is food, isn't gonna decide this election. Those maha moms came and turned out so. Every issue matters now, especially with social media. I think Rom's gotta fine tune some of these answers.

[Megyn Kelly]

The other thing is, can I tell you I was thinking about this. Last week, you know, right before the fall of the Roman Empire, the culture completely imploded with debauchery and no connection to faith or something bigger than oneself. And all these, you know, not caring for the weak or, you know, for unborn babies at all. And that's why the culture wars do matter. Like we're, we're back there in some ways with like, throuples and people trying to normalize pedophilia with the minor attracted person label and the cutting off of children's genitals in the name of like, equity and inclusion, dividing us by race, trying to make little girls boys when they're not. Like all this stuff. You can dismiss it as culture wars, but I actually think it's the degradation of a cohesive society. It's what happens when you remove the faith as a guiding principle of any society. And it really is the road to end times. Like, it's fine to just dismiss it as like, oh, you're sweet little culture. No, it's the road to end times. So, like, if we don't fight back against it, we're gonna completely lose everything that's dear to us. I don't know if he knows that or if he's just part too, too much of a Democrat to really see that.

[Mark Halperin]

He travels in circles where these things are not as big a deal. He just does.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you make of Gavin Newsom, though? Against him, those two on a stage picture that.

[Mark Halperin]

I still think Newsom's not gonna run. I'm the only one who does.

[Megyn Kelly]

You.

[Dan Turntine]

Why?

[Mark Halperin]

Because. Because in the interview I did with him on the MK Media Network, he talked about his daughter being upset that she had to, you know, be followed around by one security person when she went out and when are you going to leave? She said, he said, his daughter said, when are you going to leave office? So I can stop this. If he runs for president and wins.

[Dan Turntine]

She'S not going to stop running.

[Link Lauren]

He doesn't even know the daughter's damn name. He doesn't. Who the hell is this daughter? Oh, please.

[Mark Halperin]

I don't think his wife wants him to run.

[Megyn Kelly]

You don't?

[Mark Halperin]

Jennifer, Jennifer's partner does not want him to run. I may be wrong. Maybe he'll do it, but I don't. If he does run and it's him against Rom, then I think you will see an elevated debate. I don't. I don't. I think those two guys will have a serious conversation about the party.

[Link Lauren]

With all due respect, this is a guy who sleeps with his campaign manager's wife. He's an alcoholic who kind of lied about going to rehab, and we're suddenly like, he's father of the year. His daughter really doesn't want him to run for president. Oh, please. He's going to run if he wants to.

[Megyn Kelly]

And they'll still make his daughter play against a boy, even though he gives lip service that he won't when he's interviewing.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I mean, I don't know.

[Dan Turntine]

He can't be thinking seriously about it and leaning towards it, given the last month and a half that he's had. I mean, we can all debate whether what he advocated for with the LA riots was smart or not. But he's had a moment in the party. I don't think anyone's had a better last month as a Democratic candidate for 2028 than Gavin Newsom.

[Link Lauren]

Because bar is low.

[Dan Turntine]

Agreed. 100%. Agreed.

[Link Lauren]

Our seventh ring of hell.

[Dan Turntine]

But the party now, like, if you read articles when he went to South Carolina, you look at focus groups, what does everyone say? He's fighting. My God, he fights. He stood up to Trump. He now has this communications team where he's trolling J.D.

[Megyn Kelly]

Vance.

[Dan Turntine]

He's trolling.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's doing better on social media.

[Dan Turntine]

He's too hustling a lot of the time.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's not speaking our language. But you have to acknowledge that he's out there swinging.

[Dan Turntine]

He is speaking the language of Donald Trump, which is nonstop for front foot in your face. I'm gonna troll you. I'm gonna hit you. I'm gonna mock you. I'm gonna do everything. And our base, just as the Republican base craved it. In 15 of like, my God, he's not apologizing on immigration or any of this stuff again. We can debate good general election strategy, but I don't know how. You go to South Carolina and Jim Clyburn says, I like this guy. He's got a bright future, I think. And go home and say, well, hon.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm hanging it up.

[Dan Turntine]

All right, that was nice. I would have won.

[Mark Halperin]

There's four factors that I think get lost in the conversation about running for president that I don't know that he'll do as well in. And I'm very bullish. More bullish than you to are on his skills. One is, what are the early States they're going to vote, we don't know. But if the early states are, include Iowa and South Carolina. Let's see how he does Gavin. We're talking about Gavin. Number two, raising money. He should be able to raise a ton of money as governor of California. He's got the best digital list. Raise money. I want to see if he can raise serious money. Okay. Number three is effortless. Is he wanting to get up every day with his young kids and living on the west coast and do the 10 things it's necessary to do to run? And then the last thing is, how do you handle a crisis? How do you handle a political crisis when they come at you? I don't think we've seen him handle political crisis particularly well or real crises.

[Megyn Kelly]

There's nothing rebuilt in LA whatsoever. Not a single home is rebuilt.

[Mark Halperin]

Look at when he's been like, remember that thing where he was on the cell phone and a lady was trying to talk to him? Like, yeah, like, that's, you know, look at how Bill Clinton. Look at how Donald Trump handled Access Hollywood. Look at how Bill Clinton handled Jennifer Flowers in the draft. Look at how Barack Obama handled Reverend Wright. Like, I just don't see in him someone who digs deep when that stuff happens. So in those four areas, he's not as great as he's been in some of these other things, as Dan pointed out. And I just think there's reason to be skeptical that he's gonna play it that well.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll tell you something about Rahm that we didn't get into today. He's as vicious on Trump as Gavin Newsom is. Like, we didn't get into Trump today. He won't be running against Trump, notwithstanding what Steve Bannon says. But every Democrat is still gonna run on Trump, right? Like, whoever it is, whether it's JD Or Marco or could be Tulsi, who knows, it's gonna be all about Trump. So I think he'll also appear as a fighter because he'll be out there saying the nastiest things possible about Donald Trump. And I do wonder, though, like, how's that gonna go? Because I don't think Rahm Emanuel or Gavin Newsom or anybody else I've heard of on Team Blue has the oratory skills of J.D. vance or Marco Rubio, who are, I just think, going to eat their opponents alive. And either one of those guys will kill them unless they increase their game by the time they get out there.

[Link Lauren]

Well, even Gavin Newsom, they thought he was going to do great in that debate with Desantis, they're like, desantis, they're going to wipe the floor with him. Newsom's the same snake oil salesman, greasy guy talker. And he goes out there, Ron DeSantis holds up like a poop map. He just wipes the floor with Newsom. And away from. Yeah, I don't think people were expecting. And Newsom kind of floundered and flailed and I think that's what happens when you press Newsom. And we saw that in the Sean Ryan interview. He was pressed very delicately about 8 year olds transitioning and cross sex hormones for kids. Couldn't give a straight answer. It was a lot of this sort of air traffic controller Bob Bossy, jazz hands. And he couldn't give an answer. And so Gavin Newsom, I don't even think it's a guarantee Gavin Newsom makes it out of a primary. Could you put him on a debate stage? He crumbles so quickly. Like he seems unwell. Like something's off with him. Like he's going to crumble really fast.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know what you mean. Like, why does he gesticulate so violently.

[Link Lauren]

More than Tim Walls?

[Megyn Kelly]

It makes me distrust him, really, Because I've said this before, but my, my CIA guy, Phil Houston invented the Deception Detection program there. They still use all over the world. Hands above the midline is a tell if coupled with another sign of deception that you're lying. Has to be two signs of deception within five seconds of asking the question. This is not voodoo, this is real. He's a human lie detector. He's outed bad guy terrorists who we thought were working for us. He's found double agents within the CIA who we thought we were using against another country, but really they'd been turned against us. Bill Houston is the man and he's.

[Mark Halperin]

Ready to arrest Gavin Newsom.

[Megyn Kelly]

He says he's. No, no, he hasn't weighed in on Gavin. But just FYI, hands above the midline can be a tell if it's coupled with another side.

[Mark Halperin]

I've literally never done that, by the way.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like this.

[Link Lauren]

I do it all the time, but I'm not a real blonde. Watch out, I'm deceiving you.

[Mark Halperin]

Never move my hands.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll do it. When I'm like making a point, it has to be coupled with something else. Like a verbal attack. Like, how could you ask me that kind of a question? That's I'm lying.

[Mark Halperin]

Like Nathan Thurm on Saturday Night Live.

[Megyn Kelly]

Who's he?

[Mark Halperin]

He's a character who would say Stuff like, maybe someone should interview you, maybe someone should investigate you. Are you asking me all the questions?

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, so that's enough about Rahm Emanuel and Gavin Newsom. This is a long way off. Although kind of it's not. It always starts early. I don't know, it's. It's too soon.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay.

[Megyn Kelly]

President Trump has been in there for six months.

[Mark Halperin]

Can I say one more thing about the very first question you asked him? Why are you here? I thought his answer was abysmal. He just kind of joked about it.

[Megyn Kelly]

You didn't like it.

[Mark Halperin]

He should have said, I want to reach every American. You have a huge audience of people who have been trending Republican and I want to win him back. Not, I had nothing better to do. I don't know. I just thought, I just thought that was it. Set a tone. If he's serious about reaching your audience, I just thought that was kind of disrespectful.

[Megyn Kelly]

Come on. Bended knee with a bouquet of flowers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

[Mark Halperin]

And say we gotta fight for every vote. We can't let people who voted for Donald Trump vote Republican in four years. And again, I'm not against joking. I just think the reason that George Bush and Donald Trump and Bill Clinton and Barack Obama all wonderful is cause they ran simultaneously, appealing both to their party and to a general election electorate. And he seemed to me just missed the opportunity to do that.

[Megyn Kelly]

He told me before the interview and I don't think he would mind if I repeated that because he seemed to suggest he might tell the story himself, that he was here in part because his sister in law listens to the show and heard me say something nice about him.

[Link Lauren]

He should have said that blended family could have done a dance.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. So he was like, well, maybe she'll give me a fair shot and I'll go over there. And I did. And so listen, when he comes back, we'll see if he does better, if he takes these pieces of advice to heart. But I wanna talk about Trump because there's been a very interesting development now within the intel community around Trump. Tulsi Gabbard late on Friday. And I just wanna say, as on all things, I'm a truly honest broker on this. I'm still trying to figure out what's real.

[Mark Halperin]

I don't know, like who she is accusing of what, for instance.

[Megyn Kelly]

No. Whether she's right and Matt Taibbi, who I love, is right. That this is a bombshell and it's terrible. And people really could go to Jail, or whether Andy McCarthy at National Review, who I love and respect and who's totally honest broker, too, is correct that this is a complete nothing burger. And she's totally off and apparently hasn't read her own CIA director's release of last week. And that he would suggest she hasn't really been following the Russiagate scandal because everything she just told us is old. And so I'm really trying to figure out, but just to set it up for the audience is. It's very complex. On Friday night, Tulsa Gabbard went on Fox News and said that she'd found documents that she was releasing that show in some substance, that one day the intelligence community under Barack Obama was ready to come out and say that the Russians did not interfere in the 2016 election and really had no part in it. And that whole thing was kind of bullshit. Then Barack Obama pulled them all into the White House. They had a big meeting, and then literally the next day they were like, russia interfered to help Trump and leaked it to all the reporters. Washington Post. And the suggestion is that Obama turned them and said, I'm not having a report coming out of you guys saying that they didn't interfere. Our whole narrative is that Hillary would have won had it not been for the Russians. Now give me a report that says that that's the implication, and that then the intel community did it, and the subservient Washington press corps ran with it, and that's how the narrative really took off, that the Russians had gotten Trump elected. Okay, so Annie McCarthy's point in response is, okay, you're talking apples and oranges. What they said prior to the Obama meeting was, we've seen nothing to suggest the Russians hacked election machines, even though they tried in a couple of places, but that they didn't. They were not able to do anything technical technologically that would have altered the outcome of an election with. With raw vote. Then they have the Obama meeting, and then they come out. And it's true that their report that they issued then was all about the ways Russia did interfere. Like fake articles about Hillary, bots that circulated negative news about her, and they hacked the DNC mail, which is how we have a lot of the admissions we have from her and her terrible family. Anyway, he's saying it's apples to oranges. And while she is producing now emails that do show they were ready to say no interference when it comes to election machines, prior to that, we kind of knew everything that she's saying already. I'm gonna show you her announcement. I think we have it guys, don't we? On Friday night. Yeah. Sat 9. Let's play. It spells out in great detail exactly what happens when you have some of the most powerful people in our country directly leading at the helm. President Obama and his senior most national security cabinet, James Comey, John Brennan, James Clapper and Susan Rice and others essentially making a very intentional decision to create this manufactured, politicized piece of intelligence with the objective of subverting the will of the American people. The list goes on and on about the consequences of President Obama and his senior cabinet members politicizing intelligence once again. And I say these words very clearly to enact what was essentially a years long coup, subverting the will of the American people. One of the other points Andy made was that he's not a fan of Tulsi. He wasn't behind her confirmation. But he's also saying it's not a surprise to him that Tulsi Gabbard would try to exonerate Russia entirely and instead blame America. Right. Like sort of say Russia didn't do anything whatsoever. And he's. His point is she's overstating it. Russia did do some things, but it didn't cost Hillary the election. Andy doesn't contend that, but that we're now sort of manufacturing something for press clicks and possibly indictments that may not be there. Anybody want to take this?

[Dan Turntine]

I mean, look, I'll say this. I am with you. I'm not sure what she's doing because I think what she's trying to argue is it wasn't determinative to the outcome. But there is no debate. Russia tried to influence the election, as you say, they bought ads on YouTube, they bought ads on Facebook, they had chatbots, they hacked email. They wanted Donald Trump to win. Now the question was, did the Trump campaign collude? Robert Mueller ruled there was no definitive proof that they colluded, but I'm not sure what. I almost get the sense that what she's saying is like, they didn't try to interfere in the election. And what's also fact is the Obama administration, the last month of the campaign was aware of what was going on and struggled. Do they go public with this? Do they put it out? If we do, it's gonna look like we're trying to tip the scales. After the election, they huddled and said we need to get out. Both as like a psa, hey, Russia, you tried to do this and we're aware of it. And then they said, was there collusion? Was there perhaps something more there? I think that latter part, they wanted to put out into the kind of, you know, mainstream to be like, someone needs to go look at this. Right. And obviously that enraged Trump, and he didn't want, you know, he want it, and he wanted everyone to know that he. He did this. But I'm not sure what she's implying. If there's real signs of crime or malfea, then by, you know, goodness, put it out and let the public see it. But I'm very skeptical.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't have you looked at this. And it's very smart. People who I normally trust are in diametric disagreement on it.

[Mark Halperin]

If she sees a crime, she's got to say who and what law they broke. It's just too vague. I'll pick up on a point Dan made, which I know because I did a lot of reporting on this. They really did struggle with what to say. They didn't want to let the Russians go uncalled out in public. But they also didn't want to be accused of trying to make it seem like the Russians were doing something. They were pretending the Russians were doing something to help Hillary. I actually think there's 19 things you could list that, say, cost Hillary Clinton the election, and this is one of them. It was very close. You don't know what would have happened otherwise. But I think Russia helped Trump win substantially, not through collusion, but because they wanted Trump to win. And that is something she's playing down. What she's playing up is that they somehow broke the law in trying to protect Hillary Clinton. And again, I just.

[Megyn Kelly]

She's suggesting they manufactured it. She's basically suggesting this is the same thing as Covid, where the scientists went from. This looks like it came from a lab. We've never seen such a virus from an animal. And then after Fauci and Collins browbeated them, they came out and they were like, it's definitely not from a lab. It's from a pangolin.

[Mark Halperin]

They're people associated with Barack Obama who leaned into collusion without a doubt. And that wrong. I don't know if it's against the law. It was dirty pool. But mostly what they said was the Russians interfered with the election, and they.

[Link Lauren]

Did a little bit of cosmic karma. Everything comes full circle because Tulsi was accused by Hillary Clinton and the Obamas, I believe, of being like a Russian asset. And then she went on the View and said, she's owned by Russia. She's a Russian puppet. And Tulsi was coming out saying, I'm nobody's puppet. I've served this country. You know, I'm a woman in uniform as she is and she's a rock star. But yeah, no, I think this is a little bit of cosmic karma. She gets to now come out and say, ha, look at what we've just uncovered in these files. But I think it's Monday. Maybe by the end of the day we'll have more information because I read on the way over here she's now given something to the doj or she.

[Megyn Kelly]

Said it's going to come out this week. We're going to see leaky.

[Link Lauren]

I think it's weird Friday night to make the announcement with everything going on.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know why. Why? They put out news that's bad for them heading into a weekend after a holiday. They put out news that's good for them. A Friday night.

[Link Lauren]

Hannity will be here Monday. So I don't know.

[Mark Halperin]

That might have been an episode.

[Megyn Kelly]

I was just gonna say maybe. I'm not sure that's gonna work either. We'll talk about that when we come back. Let's take a break and then we will discuss where we are in Epstein Palooza. Stand by. Okay. Do you wanna know about something positive and upbeat? I have been telling you about Firecracker Farm hot salt. It's been a showstopper gift and must have item for anyone that enjoys spicing up their food. What is hot salt, you may be asking. Well, it is a sea salt infused with a blend of hot pepper that's made by a wonderful little family company. It comes in sleek stainless steel push grinders that feel great in hand and are really satisfying to use. Their motto, everything is better with hot salt. And based on the reviews, customers are in full agreement. So give it a try. Now go to Firecracker Farm right now and use code MK at checkout for a special discount. Yes, that's Firecracker Farm. Code mk. And get some hot salt before it's all gone. You'll thank me. If you're stressed about back taxes. Maybe you missed the April deadline or your books are a mess. Don't wait. The IRS is cracking down. Penalties add up fast. 5% per month, up to 25% just for not filing. But there's help. Tax Network USA can take the burden off your shoulders and stop the spiral before it gets worse. They've helped thousands of Americans. Whether you're an employee, a small business owner or you haven't filed in years. Messy books, no problem. They've seen it all. Tax Network USA has direct access to powerful IRS programs and expert negotiators, too on your side. You'll get a free consultation, and if you qualify, they may even be able to reduce or eliminate what you owe. More importantly, they'll help protect you from wage garnishments or bank levies. So don't wait for the next IRS letter. Call 800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com Megan to talk to a real expert at Tax Network USA. Take the pressure off yourself. Let Tax Network USA handle your tax issues. I'm Megyn Kelly, host of the Megyn Kelly show on Sirius xm. It's your home for open, honest and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal and cultural figures. Today, you can catch the Megyn Kelly show on Triumph, a SiriusXM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love. Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey, and yours truly, Megyn Kelly. You can stream the Megyn Kelly show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are. No car required. I do it all the time. I love the SiriusXM app. It has ad free music coverage of every major sport, comedy talk, podcast and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free.

[Dan Turntine]

Go to SiriusXM.com MKShow to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com MKShow and get three months.

[Mark Halperin]

Free offer details apply.

[Megyn Kelly]

So you were saying before the break, it's fancy here, isn't it? It's not fancy.

[Mark Halperin]

Something I can steal. Like an ashtray. Do I have ashtrays?

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, it's funny, I don't think anybody does anymore. The same guy has been driving me and my family for, like, since I started at Fox. Super nice man. And he was dropping me off today and he said, you know, Megan, you've been coming to this same location because the series is right across from Fox and right across from NBC. He's like, for like almost 20 years now.

[Mark Halperin]

You just as long as you can spit a watermelon seed far enough to hit the other building, that's good for you.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, it's like this is Media Central and it does bring back a lot of memories. Anyway, so we were saying before the break that possibly the Tulsi Gabbard thing was a head fake to change the topic of conversation from Epstein. Did it work?

[Mark Halperin]

Well, it's hard to know, right, because the two intervening things that seem bigger around Epstein, one is the Wall Street Journal story which rallied MAGA back towards the president. And the other is the announcement of the filing to release as the grand jury transcripts to be released. I think those two things did the most to take the steam out of it for the media, even though the New York Times now seems obsessed with reviving it.

[Megyn Kelly]

So I want to say two things. I don't think we're going to learn much from the grand jury files at all, and I think the Trump administration knows that. So he says, oh, nothing I do will ever satisfy them. Which is true. But this definitely won't. Like, this won't even come close.

[Mark Halperin]

It's not a good faith effort to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Say it's definitely not a good faith effort. But secondly, on the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal hit piece, it was so lame. It was the best thing Trump could have asked for. And I realized he came back swinging. But even if he had, like, there's nothing we on the right hate more than the left's fake news hit pieces on Donald Trump. We've seen so many of them. The guy literally took a bullet. He's been put through hell. Like, we have all had it up to here with the false attacks on Donald Trump. And so the best thing that the left and I include the journals for reporting that could have done was just be quiet and let it stay. A Trump slash influencer problem. Don't help because that only makes people on the right wanna drop it and defend him. And that's kind of where I am. Like, it was such a lame. I'm very interested in what the truth about Epstein is. Very interested. You try to tell me the whole scandals about Donald Trump, fuck off, I'm out. Like, that's a lie. We know that. We would know that by now if it were true. I will not be your truth warrior on that because I know it's not right. But I do want real answers in the underlying scandal. Go ahead, link.

[Link Lauren]

I just feel like the left really wants to tie Trump to Epstein more closely. And I think that's what the Wall Street Journal really was about. I mean, I just have a hard time believing he's sitting there drawing and doing this. The whole thing sounded really silly to me. And then there's also still this narrative online that, you know, maybe Trump visited the island. I'm like, the guy doesn't even stay in hotels that don't have his name on it. I certainly don't think he visited the island. But they want to keep tying Trump to Epstein. I think J.D. vance is still looking like a winner because he doesn't seem as mired down in the Epstein stuff. JD Vance don't think he's spoken about it as much. He's now rallying around the President with the Wall Street Journal story, as he should. So I think going into 2028, I don't see this Epstein stuff having really any bearing on the election.

[Megyn Kelly]

He brokered the piece between the FBI guys, Cash Patel and Dan Bongino. And Trump.

[Link Lauren]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Because Trump was mad at them after the like she goes or I go thing with Dan and that reportedly JD Van stepped in.

[Mark Halperin]

Can you take an opposing view?

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, go for it.

[Link Lauren]

Do it.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay. Trump is making these decisions about what the country learns about something people are really interested in.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes.

[Mark Halperin]

And he's got a conflict. He was close friends with the person at the center of this. How close? I think the Wall Street Journal story, if true, speaks to that. You say he stays in his own hotels. I've never heard of Donald Trump flying on anyone else's plane, ever. Flies on his plane. He flew on Epstein's plane. That suggests something. Again, I'm not assuming facts, not in evidence. I'm not saying the president broke any laws. I'm not saying he did anything improper. But he was close friends with the.

[Megyn Kelly]

Guy for 15 years.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah. And so he should really be recused from this in terms of the public interest and confidence in decision making. So any story that illustrates or claims to illustrate their closeness, I think just speaks to that. You think about it, he shouldn't be the one deciding these things because they're bad as good friends.

[Megyn Kelly]

Back to pipe. Let me tell you something. My own feeling is not that Trump has something to hide in these files. I really don't believe that. But I do believe Trump probably has some powerful donors and or friends, which.

[Mark Halperin]

Is why he should be decided. But I think that's got a conflict.

[Dan Turntine]

Is that the question? It dies down if there's nothing, if there's no more new oxygen. But I think we've all probably heard there are more stories in the works now. They may not ever see the light of day. There may not be anything there. But I think to Mark's point, they were close friends. New York and Palm beach are small worlds. We're sitting in one of them right now. If there's another story and it starts to get closer to them, then I think this continues to have more oxygen and people start. It brings it back in front of the public. People demand stuff. And to Mark's point, people started thinking, is Trump hiding something about his friends or about him or what is it?

[Megyn Kelly]

Trump brought that piece of it on himself. If Trump had just stayed consistent with the base and this had never been Trump's issue. You know, he really hadn't been touting Epstein on the campaign trail, though his son touted it many, many times and so did his top deputies and his emissaries out on the campaign trail. But if Trump hadn't done that weird answer at that cabinet meeting and then gone on the attack against the MAGA base, nobody would be thinking this is like a Trump scandal. They just, he's making it, he's so defensive on it. It's making people be like, whoa, there's the target right there. Go ahead, Lynn.

[Link Lauren]

Is there a simpler explanation here? When I look at President Trump, I think, is he bored? Right? Sometimes I look at him and go, is he bored by something? That's sometimes an explanation. And I think President Trump, because he doesn't live on X, because he has Fox rolling 24 7, that's what he watches. They're not really covering Epstein that much and I don't think he really gets everything that's happening on X in the podcast space with the discussion around Epstein. I think President Trump is also frustrated because he had weeks of just consistent winning right when it came to the border, the Iranian nuclear facilities going down to Texas with the grieving families. I know, cuz I was there. But President Trump had weeks and weeks of winning and then now he's like, you guys wanna talk about Epstein? This loser come back.

[Megyn Kelly]

His Attorney General should not have put out that memo, Right?

[Link Lauren]

But here's the he is going to standby. She is not going any freaking where even at. What's so funny to me is at that FIFA soccer game, Pam Bondi was in the box, so was Rupert Murdoch and now he's stealing Rupert Murdoch five days later. But yeah, I think Pam, Bonnie's not going anywhere. She's Florida. Susie Wiles likes her and she's good on cable. And so I don't see her going anywhere anytime soon.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't know if I agree with that. I really don't because it's, I believe Trump likes her and doesn't want to switch out his ag. And Susie Wiles likes her, but the base has turned on her. They will forgive the big man. They're not going to forgive her. Mark my words.

[Link Lauren]

I think it'll take some time, like with the Mike Waltz situation. I don't think he's gonna give a dog a bone right now and give you the body and the head that you want. Could I see her going and being moved and shifted down the road, Sure. I don't see it happening now in the dog.

[Megyn Kelly]

My information is that she's miserable anyway. I don't think she's happy anyway.

[Mark Halperin]

I'm comfortable with the status quo.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Dan Turntine]

It's so remarkable, too, because he's so culturally deft. He so has his finger on the pulse of his base, of what's being talked about around the country. This is the first time in 10 years that I've just seen him on the wrong side of this repeatedly. To your point, he's dug in about it, and that is surprising. Right. You would just think he's so smart and so clever that he would see this. He'd shift. Other than throwing out something like the Russia with Tulsi Gabbard, when does he make that move? Right. And how does he do it? Because as a Democrat, I just am like, whoa, you're so on your back foot, you can't get off it.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know this is a weird place to go with it, but in a way, it kind of reminds me of what happened at Fox with the Gretchen Carlson investigations. You know, she filed this lawsuit. Nobody liked Gretchen. No one really wanted to deal with her. We all knew she got fired because she had terrible ratings and she wasn't popular. But then she dug up this MeToo allegation, which we were all like, oh, sure, whatever. You know, even I was like, there's no way that's why she got fired. And even though I knew what Roger had done with me, to me, not with me years earlier. But what was happening in that case was Roger had managed to limit the investigation into Gretchen's allegations to only the team that worked with her on her show. Which would mean he would never get that. The investigators, Lachlan and Rupert and their lawyers would never get to the women who actually had stories. And this grand jury thing has that feel to me, like, I don't think we're gonna hear anything from those grand jury files regarding any Trump friends, any super rich New Yorker or Floridian. Because, you know, Julie K. Brown, as annoying as she is, was on. Was it Ross Douthat's. Whatever his last name is? Douthat's podcast over the weekend. And she was once again reminding us all that there he is. Believe Jeffrey to have trafficked girls to third parties to other rich men. And she was naming some very rich men. I'm not gonna name them here. You can listen to the podcast if you want to. As like having made Jeffrey super rich super fast. Other than just Les Wexner, the Victoria's secret guy other than him. And it just really got me thinking again about the fact that there. There really are reports there are women out there who can point the finger at a third man or a fourth man or a fifth man. And I got dollars to donuts that those names probably aren't in the grand.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Jury, but the point of it was.

[Mark Halperin]

To just say, we're doing something for disclosure and see where the story goes, and from their point of view, hope it goes away, which it could.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Link Lauren]

I'm also never really into file dumps. Like people said, we want jfk, we want rfk. When all these files, and then they made noise for, like, six hours online. And we didn't really learn that much. There was no big bombshell. The earth didn't come to an end. Nothing shattering happened. So I don't really lose sleep over it. Like, if we learn something new, we learn something new, but I don't find it all that interesting.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, let me ask you this. What's the net effect of all of this? Because, you know, my own feeling is I didn't like how Trump handled this, especially last week, but it didn't change my feelings about Trump. You know, I still support him. I still think he's incredibly good for the country. He is chalking up so many wins. So, like, you look at the fact that Trump is getting boys out of girls, sports, he is stopping the mutilation of children, he is closing down the border, he is deporting dangerous illegals. Well, that matters way more to me than about Epstein. But there are people in Coromaga for whom, you know, this is a very big issue. And it speaks not to just, like, their conspiratorial nature, but like the system that protects corrupt rich guys and shits on the little people. And that could be an ongoing problem.

[Dan Turntine]

I think it's huge because, look, the last three elections have been games of inches.

[Link Lauren]

2.

[Dan Turntine]

3%, right? Trump barely wins in 16, barely loses in 20, barely wins in 24. As you just said, for the first time in 10 years, Trump and his movement have been defending the status quo, defending institutions, right? You have Charlie Kirk saying, I trust the government. We haven't heard that in a decade. And for these younger people, and I give Trump tons of credit to get all these young people to buy into him, to buy into maga, to believe in him. They're saying, wait a second, this is no different than what we kind of heard during COVID You know, some people go back to the Iraq war, and Rahm kind of touched on all these different things. That's where I say he's tone deaf a little. How does he fix that? Not that they're rushing to us Democrats yet, cuz we have a huge trust problem with them. But for the first time we've been about change, we've been about transparency and the Republicans are just.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's where you fell off the cliff, Dan.

[Dan Turntine]

But also, Dan, you gotta start somewhere.

[Megyn Kelly]

Maybe Elon Musk and his America Party, maybe they'll get a, a couple, but they're not going down.

[Link Lauren]

Here's my thing. If I'm President Trump, right, he's looking at these polls that even CNN is running that he's gone up the last week or two even with all the Epstein stuff. And I think one of the takeaways is even if there are really loud voices on X and in the podcast space, they might not have as much effect on these polls and in the broader electorate. And I think for President Trump, because he's not living in those online spaces, he's like, I'm winning, I'm killing it. We've got the most secure border. Why aren't you talking about this? I'm bored with Epstein. I think it's really that for me, I don't think it's so much the friends or there's some secret thing he's hiding. I think he's like, I'm bored. Why are we talking about this guy?

[Megyn Kelly]

He's some piece of. Trump genuinely believes this is a Democrat conspiracy that like this was, this is like a long trap that's been laid by Democrats. Somehow I haven't totally figured it out, but I think there is a piece of him that does genuinely believe this is like some sort of a thing that's been laid for him. And I reported this earlier, I was told by a few people that there is a belief, this is not confirmed, that there's a belief that there were some like poison pills put in the files by the Biden team before leaving office, that that would make it such that Trump wouldn't want to release the files. I have no idea whether that's true, but now I've heard it from a couple of people and even the Trump, even President Trump intimated it credible.

[Link Lauren]

I want them to put out the credible documents is what President Trump keeps saying. Now when he's gabbling, she can put out anything that's credible. And so I think he's just worried there could be some stuff in there that's supposed to paint him in a negative light and he's Like, I'm winning so much. My polling is great. Why are we talking about this?

[Megyn Kelly]

Why don't you just love me the way I deserve to be?

[Link Lauren]

I think he's bored with it. I think he's so bored. And the new that he's watching isn't covering Epstein at all. And his aides might be coming to him saying, this is really big online. This is big online. And I think he's like, I'm sick of this.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I don't like online. So, Mark Halpern, does it affect him in any way, shape or form, or.

[Mark Halperin]

No, I don't think so. I think it's the 485th lesson that we all should be humble and remember that Donald Trump understands MAGA better than we do.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. And politics in general. The guys who sticks for it have been spot on. Spot on.

[Link Lauren]

Pun intended, trademark, copyright.

[Mark Halperin]

And he. And he can do stuff and say stuff that other people can't.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah.

[Link Lauren]

I think it's also July. I was talking about this with someone yesterday. Like, it's the middle of summer, It's July. I think a lot of people are at home. I think by in a couple weeks, we won't even be discussing this.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, maybe that's why they released it when they. When they did, you know, because it's summer. But I was just amazed that they released this during such a slow news time when the media's always looking for something to chew on. And this has been such a juicy story.

[Mark Halperin]

If they're super sophisticated, maybe they figured out it can burn out. Okay. Over in the summer.

[Megyn Kelly]

Same way BBB is going to burn out by the time we actually get to the midterms. What's happening? All right, guys, a pleasure. Thank you all for being here. We never get to be in the same room. Yeah, that's wonderful. Okay, tomorrow We've got another MK Media star. One of the EJ's, Emily Jaszynski will be here for the full show. Don't miss that. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda and no fear.