The TRUTH About Michael Jackson as Biopic Sets Records, and Blake Lively's DOOMED Legal Strategy, with Mark Geragos and Matt Murphy

Summary

The Megyn Kelly Show

“Revisiting the Michael Jackson Allegations, and Blake Lively's DOOMED Legal Strategy”

Guests: Mark Geragos & Matt Murphy

Episode 1315 | Date: May 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Megyn Kelly takes on two headline stories: the renewed controversy over Michael Jackson amid the phenomenal success of the new “Michael” biopic, and the legal twists in the Blake Lively–Justin Baldoni legal battle after a high-profile settlement. For the Michael Jackson segment, Kelly is joined by attorneys Mark Geragos (Jackson's former defense lawyer) and Matt Murphy (former prosecutor/co-host of “In the Well” on MK True Crime) to dissect the legacy, abuse allegations, and public perception surrounding the late pop icon. The second half turns to the legal saga between Hollywood’s Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, examining media spin and the realities of anti-SLAPP statutes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael Jackson Biopic & Its Cultural Impact ([02:17]–[20:13])

• Biopic’s Success & Purposefully Avoided Allegations:

  • The film “Michael” ends before the sexual abuse allegations, allowing audiences to focus on Jackson’s music and persona, not on the scandals ([03:12]).
  • “It allows people to take in just his genius...without really having to wrestle with the other side of Michael Jackson.” — Megyn Kelly ([19:05])

• Public & Press Reaction:

  • NYT reporter was so convinced of Jackson’s guilt, he initially refused to see the film for coverage ([03:12]).
  • The film’s omission of the allegations is seen as both a commercial move and a legal necessity due to settlement agreements with accusers’ families.

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2. Jackson’s Upbringing & Psychological Analysis ([21:12]–[29:54])

• Abuse by Father, Joe Jackson:

  • Michael described severe physical, emotional (and potentially sexual) abuse at the hands of his father in iconic interviews ([23:11], [26:39]).
  • “He would oil you down... the cord hit you, it was like me dying.” — Michael Jackson, on The Michael Jackson Tapes ([26:39])

• Potential Consequences:

  • Panel discusses how such trauma could shape adult pathology, noting Michael’s arrested development and public eccentricities.

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3. Re-examination of the Molestation Allegations ([29:54]–[44:13])

• Major Allegations:

  • The 1993 Jordy Chandler case (settled) and the 2003 Gavin Arvizo criminal trial (Jackson acquitted).
  • Geragos details how Jackson’s second accuser’s family had a pattern as “vexatious litigants,” similar legal counsel as Chandler’s, and credibility issues ([14:17]).

• Recent Civil Claims:

  • The Casio family, long-time Jackson defenders, now claim in a lawsuit they were abused by Jackson over many years ([44:13]).
  • Casio siblings reported “fear, manipulation, and emotional dependence,” but their lawsuits seeking financial compensation raise skepticism for some.

• Documentary Critique:

  • “Leaving Neverland” is heavily criticized by Kelly and Geragos for not disclosing its accusers’ credibility issues, prior sworn denials under oath, and potential profit motives ([55:30], [61:20]).
  • Key contradictions: train station built after claimed period of abuse (Safechuck), Robson’s shifting testimony and incentive after career disappointment ([73:27]).

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4. Jackson’s Legacy vs. “Cancel Culture” ([129:08]–[130:56])

• Ongoing Public Fascination:

  • Despite unresolved allegations, Jackson’s estate continues to earn hundreds of millions posthumously, suggesting society’s willingness to separate art from artist.
  • “Money spawns money and that is going to triumph in the end, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on who's looking at it.” — Mark Geragos ([129:46])

• Matt Murphy’s Perspective:

  • Murphy acknowledges the seriousness of the allegations but believes the public will continue to enjoy Jackson’s work, with or without resolution: “We all need to allow ourselves to enjoy the music. Other people are making that money now.” ([129:48])

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5. Blake Lively Legal Battle & Lawyerly Spin ([93:34]–[122:23])

• Case Background:

  • Lively and her legal team frame the settlement as a win due to recovery of attorney fees (anti-SLAPP statute), spinning this as “ecstatic victory” despite her substantive sexual harassment and contract claims largely failing ([97:33], [98:20]).
  • Judges have already rejected attempts to re-brief the attorney fee dispute, indicating likely modest recovery ([119:01]).

• Legal Experts’ Take:

  • Murphy and Geragos dismiss the lawyering as “pure spin”: “If you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough. Or it's just pure spin.” — Matt Murphy ([100:41])
  • Geragos suggests Lively’s legal team’s mediation was about shielding themselves from a likely malpractice suit after the court's order gutted her case ([114:32]).

• Celebrity Litigation:

  • The trio notes celebrity plaintiffs often underestimate the public's right to judge, and that most attacks simply amplify preexisting bad publicity, not remedy it.

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6. Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps/Attribution)

• On the Power of Public Spectacle:

  • “If we don’t get this guy under control, he’s going to come to court in his pajamas.” — Ben Brafman to Geragos on Jackson ([09:30])
  • “He was accused of child molestation. And he's like, having a great time the day of the indictment, on top of the van doing the moonwalk.” — Megyn Kelly ([09:47])

• On “Leaving Neverland” Documentary Tactics:

  • “It was so offensive to me...what I had described there in the press conference...was they had filmed my conversations with him, attorney client, which are sacrosanct, and they were marketing it.” — Mark Geragos ([60:03])
  • “If you’re a journalist or storyteller doing a documentary you must include the credibility problems...this guy did not do that on either one of these men, which is a failing. It is a fatal flaw in the presentation.” — Megyn Kelly ([61:20])

• On statutorily revived lawsuits (Lookback windows):

  • “There ought to be some bright line at a certain point...You can win the case eventually, but how do you get your reputation back?” — Mark Geragos ([69:29])

• On Parental Responsibility:

  • “No normal man wants a child in his bed. They just don't.” — Megyn Kelly ([131:56])

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

| Topic | Timestamps | |----------------------------------------------|-----------------| | Introduction & Biopic’s Social Impact | 02:17–20:13 | | Jackson’s Childhood & Bashir Interview | 23:11–29:54 | | Legal Handling of Accusations | 14:17–19:05, 44:13–64:06 | | Critique of “Leaving Neverland” | 55:30–75:45 | | Recent Lawsuits & Civil Revival Statutes | 44:13–68:30 | | Cross-examination of Sexual Abuse Claims | 73:24–79:56 | | Blakey Lively/J. Baldoni Legal Spin | 93:34–119:01 | | Public Perception and MJ’s Future Legacy | 129:08–132:46 |

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains an in-depth, no-nonsense legal analysis mixed with moments of levity and skepticism. Geragos’s seasoned (and slightly sardonic) defense perspective is matched by Murphy’s prosecutorial instincts, while Kelly cuts through legalese and media spin with clarity, directness, and occasional pointed humor.

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Conclusions for Listeners

• Michael Jackson’s Story remains as complex and divided as ever: a tale of almost unimaginable talent shadowed by deep, ongoing questions about his criminality—and the persistent failures and biases of both accusers and defenders.
• Allegations against Jackson are mired in contradictory evidence, credibility attacks, financial motives, and problems of justice deferred, especially posthumously.
• The Biopic’s Success signals the public’s willingness, at least for now, to separate the art and persona from the unresolved darkness—and the estate’s deft legal management.
• Civil Litigation in Celebrity Cases (as with Blake Lively) is as much about narrative management as law, with both sides spinning victories.
• Victim Credibility & Legal Standards are complex and rarely clear-cut, especially with high-profile, decades-old accusations.
• Takeaway Quote:
  “The people who want to believe these lies always will, and the people who don’t require no correction.” — Megyn Kelly ([111:06])

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For more true crime analysis each Friday, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to “In the Well” via MK True Crime.

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(Advertisements, standard podcast intros/outros, and promos were purposefully omitted from this summary.)

Transcript

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

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[Mark Garagos]

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[Megyn Kelly]

Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on SiriusXM channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show. We have a great, great program for you today. You will not believe who Katie Porter is blaming for the leak of that infamous video of her berating her staffer. Get him, Katie. She's mad and she's naming names and we've done a deep dive on it. And we have a Kelly's court with another twist in the Blake Lively Justin Baldoni case, which despite that shock, settlement is not over just yet. Wait until you hear what her lawyer just said. First though, we're going to do something a little different today. Have you heard about or seen this new Michael Jackson movie? It's called Michael and it has already grossed nearly $600 million worldwide since its release on April 24th. I mean, that's no time at all ago. With a legitimate chance to hit the billion dollar mark, it's causing a lot of controversy. We'll explain why, but here's the movie's trailer.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

I love my family. I just want to do my own thing. Just have all these ideas in my head. Just gotta get them out and do it.

[Mark Garagos]

Michael, not a little boy anymore.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Michael, I knew you were different the

[Mark Garagos]

moment you were born.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

You have a very special life too. I believe in music can change the world, Spread love, joy and peace. That is what I want the world to feel. Magic.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow. Now the movie ends before Michael Jackson was accused of sexual abuse of children. It originally did not end there, but it does in the version that you're seeing in the theaters. Despite the film ignoring the controversy surrounding that, you know, the allegations of Jackson's behavior around children, the movie has reopened the debate about the pop star's legacy and the credibility of his accusers. I listened to a full hour on this by the New York Times, the Daily, the other, the reporter who they assigned to go see the film and so on was refusing to actually see it. So convinced he was of Michael Jackson's guilt as a child predator, the Times apparently had to make him see it before he would appear on the Daily to talk about it, which is kind of derelict as a reporter. But that's just one example of the feelings that just the name Michael Jackson still engender for some people. Now, I'm just gonna tell you a story. A couple years ago when I was off, I was in between NBC and this show. I took a deep dive into the allegations against Jackson made in that so called documentary, Finding Neverland. I had very little time, very little things to do with the time that I had in my hands. So I actually took a deep dive into the Woody Allen allegations and the Michael Jackson allegations at the time. And I, I have to tell you, I found serious problems with both of them. Now that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm convinced that the Woody Allen things did not happen. I don't think Woody Allen molested his daughter. I think crazy Mia Farrow put that in her daughter's head and that Dylan genuinely believes it because of her crazy mother, not because of her perverted father. But that's a conversation for another day. Michael Jackson. I, I wouldn't go there. However, I do see serious credibility problems with at least the two men who were featured in Finding Neverland. And my problem at the time was that the documentary, again, that's an air quotes, did not disclose any of them. Oprah Winfrey did a terrible job at the end of it trying to sort of glaze the whole thing without asking any tough questions of the two accusers. And with all due respect to them, maybe they're telling the truth, but they have massive credibility problems, especially the one, the main guy. And none of it was raised, none of it was raised by the, quote, filmmaker on the, quote, documentary. But I haven't done a deep dive on all of the Michael accusers, so I'm not gonna go that far. And in fact, I've seen a lot that I find deeply, deeply disturbing. And we're gonna talk about it today. And there's a great guest who you know very well Mark Garagos is here. He is co host of in the well, which is a new program we've just launched on our MK True Crime podcast channel. If you just go to any podcast, you know, button and type in in the well, you can find it or just type in MK True Crime. It'll take you there and you can do the same on YouTube. All right, so go ahead and subscribe and you can listen to Mark along with his partner in crime, Matt Murphy, lifelong prosecutor. Matt lifelong defense attorney. Mark Duke it out on some of the greatest cases of our time and then some great war stories of their own. Okay, so go to MK True Crime for all of the proper links. Whether you are heading into allergy season or just trying to stay healthy in a crowded world, you need a defense system that actually works. Let me tell you about Beekeepers Naturals. The Propolis immune support throat spray is your daily dose of proactive protection. It is packed with antioxidants that they say fight stress and defend against germs on the spot. If allergy season has your throat feeling dry or scratchy, this can be your instant soothing relief. And to keep your airways clear, there's Propolis nasal spray Max. This is drug free and non toxic. The saline and oregano oil that it has cleanses and invigorates your sinuses, flushing out irritants and more for deep refreshing breaths. It is safe for daily use and it can be a game changer for sinus irritation. Today, Beekeepers Naturals is giving you this exclusive offer. An early Memorial Day sale. Go to beekeepersnaturals.com/megan or you can just enter the code Megan when you check out. But do one of those two things because that will get you 25% off of your order. Be keepers b e keepers naturals.com Megan or just enter that code M E G Y N when you check out and it will give you 25% off your order. Why wouldn't you want that? Mark is the perfect person because he represented Michael Jackson when he was officially charged with endangering a child. Charges that dominated the news and the country's attention for months. Mark, I mean I remember watching you handling this and you look pretty good by the way. I have to say. You look the same. Your hair is like maybe a little bit grayer, but you look the same. You look very good anyway. But what that case must have caused it to go gray because you did not have the most compliant client in the world. Let's just start there. As you as you look at that picture.

[Mark Garagos]

You see in that picture, Ben Broffman. Between me and Michael. Ben has one of the great lines of all time, and I'll tell some of the stories. I remember Ben and I went to the arraignment there, and that could be right outside of the arraignment. And there we were standing after the arraignment next to Michael, and all of a sudden, Michael was on top of the suv. He had in one fell sw. Jumped up on top of the suv, and Broffman turned to me and he said, if we don't get this guy. There you go. There it is.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, sorry, Mark.

[Mark Garagos]

That's it.

[Megyn Kelly]

We'll play it, and then you finish your thought. There he is. He's up. Okay, he's up on top of that. He's going to moonwalk. This is right after he was indicted. Can you imagine this happening today with social media?

[Mark Garagos]

You see me looking up there with my sunglasses on. Broffman literally saying to me, if we don't get this guy under control, he's going to come to. To court in his pajamas. And I started laughing hysterically. And, sir. And sure enough, he did come to Courtney's pajamas, but, oh, my.

[Megyn Kelly]

He was accused of child molestation. And he's like, having a great time the day of the indictment, on top of the van doing the moonwalk. But of course, his instincts were not wrong that he knew he was beloved. Wait, where are you, Mark? Down the mountain.

[Mark Garagos]

Right in the bottom left, right there. And there's Ben standing right next to me. We're talking. We were.

[Megyn Kelly]

Get down. Get down right now.

[Mark Garagos]

I mean, Ben and I are just. We were just shaking our heads at the time in real time. It was unbelievable. And I will tell you. Let me give you just a little bit of history as to how. How many cross currents I have and why I can actually talk to you about this. So when Michael was indicted and that was the arraignment right there, the reason we brought Ben Broffman in, I had called Johnnie Cochran. Johnny was very sick the time. And Johnny had brought me in much earlier to represent Michael during the Child Protective Services investigation. And that.

[Megyn Kelly]

What was the year?

[Mark Garagos]

Yeah, probably 2000 and end of 2002, beginning of 2003. And so I was handling the child Services, protective services. And at the same time, I knew that there was this family that had kind of attached themselves to Michael. And one of the things that was also on the mission was to investigate the family. And as soon as I had done a little bit of Investigation, and my PI who's now passed away, actually discovered this incident that had happened at J.C. penney's involving the mother. As soon as we saw that, we had to get the family away from Michael because obviously.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, wait. Just to jump in, because the same family that was alleging Michael had molested their son had sued, see JCPenney, alleging that a guard had roughed them up. They started to look like vexatious litigants who, you know, never miss an opportunity to make a dime off of a rich company or client of yours. So you. That's. That's what you're saying. You discover they've got a history.

[Mark Garagos]

Correct? And once we discovered that, once I got them moved out of Neverland, and we had done all of that, and then I'm having discussions in real time after the search warrant was executed on Neverland. My. You remember, Megan, you might have been there. I don't remember that well, but I was doing a preliminary hearing in Modesto for Scott Peterson. I was wearing a pager. I got a page from the 805 area code, recognized it as the house. And literally, as I'm finalizing the preliminary hearing for Scott, they're executing the search warrant at Neverland. So we knew that this was happening, and I had. We. There's a whole bunch of stories about what happened right after that and getting taped by the. The private plane jet operator who then tried to sell the tape of Michael and I on the jet.

[Megyn Kelly]

You and Michael had been on this private plane, and they had the nerve of taping a lawyer with his client and trying to sell it to the highest bidder, which is insane.

[Mark Garagos]

Beyond insane. The only thing there is a court of appeals justice. I think she's retired now. I ended up suing the private plane operator and getting a $22 million verd for that. And when we went up to the court of appeal, she. I don't know if it was joking or not. She said, are you telling me that it would shock Garrigus conscious conscience to have a camera filming him and to get 22 million? And so that ended up getting reversed, and we had to retry. But the insanity of what was happening then with Michael in Santa Maria and Scott in Modesto and then later San Mateo, was truly one of the craziest times. But Michael had support. He had unbelievable support compared to. And I always contrasted it with Scott, who was kind of the infamous bookend to that. And what happened was I then quickly realized that Tom Sneddon, who was the then DA Was coming after Michael alleging that he had obstructed justice, basically by moving the family off of Neverland. That's why I brought.

[Megyn Kelly]

And just so I'm clear, Mark, about who we're talking about, because the boy that he was accused of molesting in the trial in 2003 was named Gavin Arvizo, but that it was technically the second accusation. The first was by a child named Jordi Chandler 10 years earlier in 1993. So when you're referring to the family, are you talking about Gavin's family that was at Neverland, because that's the family with J.C. penney. So you had marked them a little earlier as being too close to Michael with a questionable history, like, let's get them away from each other, but too late, because this child, who was a cancer patient, would ultimately accuse Michael, and you would have to go defend him in criminal court.

[Mark Garagos]

It's a great point. It's a great point you bring up. Because, remember, in the 90s, there was a criminal grand jury that Howard Weitzman was handling Michael's case along with Johnny in the Los Angeles county court, and they ended up settling in the 90s with a young man then who was making the accusation. And then, lo and behold, 10 years, 20 years later, you're having this accusation. And there was a fear in the camp that, oh, here we go again. Ironically, they were right. It was a 10 years. Actually. Both families, I think, at one point had the same lawyer or law firm, which is ironic because now you've got, at least in the Diddy case, you have the kind of same lawyers involved in a lot of accusers there. But what ended up happening was I realized I was going to be a witness. I brought in Ben Broffman, and I did. I ended up testifying not once, but twice in Michael Jackson's trial. So not only did I kind of shepherd him through the Child Protective Services, I was also a witness for the defense. And the judge had me waive on the record, attorney, client and work product in order to testify. And so that happened. He was famously acquitted. I thought Tom, who handled the trial, Mesereau, did a workmanlike job in that under extremely difficult circumstances. But that acquittal, because I had always wondered how he would ever get through that trial. It's my opinion that that trial really took it out of him. I mean, he was fragile when I first started with him, but by the time the trial ended, and I wouldn't have if we had prediction markets, I wouldn't have bet his stamina for that trial. I Think the trial really did him in. And I. I think there's also. Speaking of, you know, the movie that you're talking about and the amount of money that it's generating, the, the wellspring of support and the kind of the way they've characterized him or portrayed him in the movie, they ended it to your point, prior to the allegations. That was not the first cut, by all reports. Once they had that they were trying to have a more elongated treatment of his life, then the case involving the 90s person who made an accusation that was settled for reportedly eight figures had a clause in the settlement that you couldn't kind of treat this, if you will. So the estate. I presumably had to make a pivot. And that's why they truncated this earlier. It actually may turn out.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes. The Jordy Chandler case, right? Yes, That's. That's what the New York Times is reporting, that originally this biopic, Michael ended with an. An attempt to address the abuse allegations and an attempt to take down of some number of the accusers. Maybe just Jordy, maybe more. I don't know. I haven't.

[Matt Murphy]

No, it was reported to be more,

[Mark Garagos]

and I've got a pretty good indication that it was more. And they. And there was a lot of the machinations that have not been reported. New York Times and that. That I can tell you actually existed, was that they were going to originally try to address Jordi Chandler. But there was a monumental problem that was going on behind the scenes when there were other accusers that were there that they had not dealt with. Some of the people who were financing this film had been felt like they had been misled. There was all kinds of back and forth in order to try and remedy this. I think where. Where the film landed was the solution. We're just not going to go there in that period of time because it's too hard to navigate all of this.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, frankly, it wound up being the best thing that could happen to them because the movie is making so much money. It allows people to take in just his genius and his incredible talent without really having to wrestle with the other side of Michael Jackson, which is, frankly, what we'd all like to do. No one wanted this to be Michael J. Ending or a piece of his story. So it kind of gives the. The watcher permission to just think about him in the best light. Amazingly and very coolly, he's played by his nephew, Jafar Jackson, who is Jermaine, Michael's brother's son. So it's kind of cool that somebody who's in the Family is actually playing Michael Jackson before we get to the darkness. So I just want to spend a minute on Michael's upbringing, Mark, because it's. He really is, whatever the legacy, you know, whatever the truth is about Michael and children. And it does matter. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but whatever it is, you cannot deny his talent, you cannot deny his importance as a cultural figure in the United States, in the world music scene. It's just, it is enormous and it's like too big to really understand.

[Mark Garagos]

It's hard to overstate the phenomena that was Michael Jackson in the 80s. I. If you were adult and sentient in the 80s, and he was literally the kind of soundtrack of that decade and longer. And it was, I cross every. There's a picture you've got with the Reagan's. I mean, he cut across every socioeconomic, ethnic, you name the category, he permeated. It was unbelievable what the kind of phenomena that he was even going into 2000. I've had my good fortune of representing

[Megyn Kelly]

some of the Princess Diana.

[Mark Garagos]

The Princess Diana adored him. Look at the now king. He was enthralled. I mean, it was unbelievable the kind of rarefied air that he occupied.

[Megyn Kelly]

And the bigger star, no matter who he met, he was the bigger star. A world class talent, almost godlike in the way people would respond to him. Just because in this one package, this overwhelming amount of talent, you know, just the number of things he could do unlike anybody else, better than everybody else. And we grew up with him. I mean he, he was a child star with the Jackson 5. He was the star of the Jackson 5. There was a story online as I was preparing for today where his mother was saying that she went to Joe and said, let Michael sing. And he said, no, Jermaine's the singer. And she said, no, no, no, but listen to Michael Singh. And he was like, Jermaine is the lead singer. And she apparently insisted. And Joe Jackson was an asshole, terrible father. But he listened to her in this one case and let Michael sing. And Michael immediately became the lead singer of the Jackson 5, which they practiced all the time. They were from Gary, Indiana, which is a very rough rundown town. With all due respect to Gary, I don't know if it's seen better days in my lifetime. It's never been good days for Gary. And he was determined to see that family rise up out of that. And boy, did they ever. So the kids become huge stars, but not without awful sacrifices. And Michael, when he became an adult, gave some Key interviews on what it was like growing up in that household and what it was like to have this guy as your dad had. And of course, Michael was like a large child when he was a grown man and sounded. It had. Had the voice of a young child, had the demeanor of a young child. So for those who have, you know, our younger audience may not have seen any of these clips. They may be sort of shocked by how he looks and sounds. But here he is in a famous interview with Martin Bashir, talking about the abuse. Warning. This stuff is disturbing. Sat too.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

He was tough. How often would he beat you? Too much? Would he only use a belt? Why do you do this to me? No more than a belt. What else would he use to hit you with iron cords, Whatever's around, throw you up against the wall? Heart as he could see, it's one thing, too, but you were only a child. I know. You were a baby. I know. It's one thing to disagree. You were producing successful records. I know he would lose his temper. I just remember hearing my mother scream, joe, you're gonna kill him. You're gonna kill him. Stop it. I mean, scared. So scared that we. I would. Would regurgitate. You would vomit. When would you vomit? What would produce that sort of reaction in you? His presence, just seeing him. And sometime I'd faint and my bodyguards would have to hold me up. When he was beating you, did you hate him? Yeah, Strong hate. That's why to this day, I don't lay a finger on my children. I don't want them to ever feel that way about me, ever. And he didn't allow us to call him Daddy. And I wanted to call him Daddy so bad. He said, I'm not Daddy. I'm Joseph to. You know.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, it's just one more mark

[Mark Garagos]

before you go to the next. Remember, this was what triggered, to my mind, in retrospect, I didn't know it at the time, obviously, but this Martin Bashir interview is what triggered, I think, in a lot of ways, the dominoes that led to his downfall and death. Because that interview. So it was so used against him or weaponized against him that it ended up fueling the fire that was the D.A. it ended up being kind of the wind at the back of the prosecution. And he never recovered from it. It was just that.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll play that sound bite, too. But before. Before I get to that, before I get to that piece of it. Just want to stay on the abuse. Because, of course, if Michael Jackson was a child molester, the odds are overwhelming that he was molested too, when he was a child. And, you know, everybody wants to know, how does one become like this? Because we want to prevent the creation of more. And he never accused his father of sexual abuse. But I did find an extraordinary clip. This is from a recording made for the book, the Michael Jackson Tapes. And it's Michael's voice over old pictures of the family. And you heard him there saying his dad used to hit him with an ironing cord. He means. And he explains here the cord of an iron, like the, literally the, the plug that plugs into an iron. And here he goes further with it in it. It was some disturbing additional details in Sat 3.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

He was rough. The way he would beat you is, you know, was hard. You know, the time he would take. They make you strip nude first. He would oil you down. Your whole ritual, he would oil you down. So when, when the flip of the, of the ironing cord hit you, which is, you know, and it was just like me dying and you just flips all over your face, your back, everywhere. I always hear my mother, but no, Joe, you're going to kill him. You're going to kill him. No, I would say I would just give up like there was nothing I can do. And I hated him for it. Wow.

[Megyn Kelly]

Now, I have to say, a father making his son get naked and covering him in oil takes me to a different place. And it is very plausible to me that Michael Jackson might not have been ready to admit or ever prepared to admit what else happened. But it's just very strange to hear of a father making his child get nude and oil him up before a beating. Either way, Mark, you can make the argument that that behavior plus physical abuse, that behavior plus sexual abuse could have created something very dark inside Michael.

[Mark Garagos]

Well, I, I mentioned earlier, the first time I was brought in was when Child Protective Services was called on him. And you hear, see there that he's talking about her in one of the previous things, talking about his. And I think in retrospect, he was prepared for later, prepared for the criminal case. I don't think he was ever prepared in retrospect for that Child Protective Services investigation. It was so hurtful, devastating, and shook him to his core. I just remember talking to him about it, and he just could not wrap his head around the idea that he would be doing anything untoward towards the kids. And we did get it shut down, but by that time, time it was shut down, the criminal case had kind of heated up and so there was no rest for the weary so to speak. And it was a very difficult time for him. I remember, I think I've mentioned this one once before. One of the most terrifying times to have a client was being called one time and finding him on the floor odd in the run up to the trial itself. And he had this wonderful housekeeper who was living in the house who had called and was panicked. And obviously you couldn't take him to the hospital immediately. He had to have a doctor there. By the time the 2000s came around, he had undergone so much and he was, to use the term self medicating, having others medicate. It was just a spectacularly hard fall from the heights. To your point that he had been at, you know, 20, 10 years earlier.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It was everything, right. I just from my vantage point out in the press and in the public, it was the multiple accusations. Now the 93 accusation, the 2000, 2003 accusation of abuse, the endangerment of his own children injected into the conversation as, you know, he could lose custody of his kids. The multiple plastic surgeries, which, like, that's a whole. His name is almost synonymous with like the bizarre plastic surgery trend that's kind of taken over since then. But he was a pioneer. Doing too much and getting addicted to it and not knowing when to stop. The skin color changes, you know, all. There's so many eccentricities about him and some you could kind of easily dismiss as the product of mega fame, like ultra fame. Like Elvis, like fame. And of course, he would wind up marrying Elvis's daughter. That's another whole twist. Right. But like, like part of the mystery is, was it how much was attributable to incredible fame and this bizarre upbringing like that, that that might happen to any child who was exploited as much as he was at a young age and how much. Here's Lisa Marie Presley just loving on him on stage. Oh, sorry. No, no, it's just a fan.

[Mark Garagos]

No, it's just a fan. He's gonna say, I don't think that's Lisa Marie.

[Megyn Kelly]

For a second I thought, this woman's too tall to be Lisa Marie. And how much is attributable to.

[Mark Garagos]

But look at those, look at those fans. For, for me, as a, just as an observer, I don't remember that kind of reaction except for the Beatles back in the 60s. I.

[Megyn Kelly]

That and Elvis.

[Mark Garagos]

I'd say, yeah, look at that.

[Megyn Kelly]

I think I feel like Elvis, Elvis brought people there too. But yeah, no, like, there's a term. Starstruck.

[Mark Garagos]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

And it's. That's exactly what these people were like struck by this megawatt star. And unlike so many of these stars, Mark, he delivered. You know, it's not like we, we today build people up with image making and PR firms and you know, sort of the social media blitz. Here's a woman being taken away on a stretcher. She's so overwhelmed by him, but he, he delivered in terms of the performance and the skills and the talent and just, you know, the way he moved was not human. It was overwhelming to behold.

[Mark Garagos]

And what, and what you see was, is just that kind of, that tearing apart of him. And it's the analysis. I've thought a lot about it over the years and, and at what price and the kind of, the collateral damage around him. And most recently with the new accusers and the, you know, on the heels of what we're talking about here, which is the movie that is out there, that kind of just drops off right before next up, I'm, I, I believe will be a movie that talks about the trial and that, that my guess is be out momentarily as well. And when you see there, by the way, that, that, that clip that you showed, I don't know a whole lot of men that could do what he did in terms of leaping up on top of an suv. Even at that stage in his life and with the physical ailments that he had, it's just hard to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, that's, that's one of the sad things. If it hadn't been for the drugs, he probably would have lived a long life because he was obviously extremely fit. You know, I mean, from years of aggressive dancing. I mean, for the love of God, Keith Richards is still alive just based on what he did on stage with the Rolling Stones. Can you imagine? We could have had Michael for decades, but a man named Dr. Conrad Murray entered his life and bizarrely agreed as a board certified anesthesiologist to administer propofol to him night after night in 2008 or nine. And killed him. I mean, he, he died. That is not a safe thing to have happen. And that's how he ultimately died. Go ahead.

[Mark Garagos]

Yeah, I was just gonna say it reminds me, I, I see this all too often with a lot of people trying to basically turn their brains off when they reach these kinds of levels. And, and that was, I, I think to some degree where he was, is just trying to literally anesthetize himself to the point where he could sleep, where he could just stop being, having the neurons firing and everything else. I mean, it's an immense tragedy. And it's a first cousin of the talent that I don't even think. There are not enough words to describe just how talented he was and the kinds of.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

He.

[Mark Garagos]

Even, even in the somewhat addled state that he was, by the time all of this other stuff was swirling around him, he had flashes. Flashes of. Of just a incredibly brilliant mind. And so I think to some degree, it was a way of just turning off that brain activity, I'm sure.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, I mean, propofol, anybody who's ever had a surgery knows what that feels like. You have to count back from 10 and you never make it past eight because of the Propofol, which knocks you out and you lose consciousness prior to, you know, them operating on you. And he, he could have anything. He had the money and the resources and the connections to get anything. And in the same way that the helicopter pilot should not have flown Kobe on that day because the weather was not safe. But he did it, I think, out of fame, you know, admiration, like wanting to please Kobe. Michael Jackson had enablers like that in his own life, and one of them killed him. Conrad Murray killed Michael Jackson by. And he was later found guilty at a trial. Right, a criminal trial, I believe he was put through, and of course lost his license, as he should have because no anesthesiologist would do this, you know, in any respectable way. And so. So that's what took him. But if it hadn't been Conrad Murray, it would have been something else. It might have been a different kind of od.

[Mark Garagos]

Right. And we could have a whole slowly

[Megyn Kelly]

but surely killing himself.

[Mark Garagos]

Yeah, we could have a whole other discussion. I mean, I'm coming fresh off of the so called Ketamine Queen and Matthew Perry. And you just wonder, at a certain point, I know you want to hold people accountable, I guess about. I get that. But at a certain point, if you've ever, and I've argued this for years with people who are in the throes of addiction or have a loved one who doesn't have one degree of separation to somebody with a mental health or an addictive challenge and doesn't understand just how determined and how much they can persevere when they want to get. Whatever it is is the carrot at the end that is being held out in front of them. So it's a very pernicious thing to be under the influence of. Pun intended.

[Megyn Kelly]

So we've gotten childhood abuse, We've gotten allegations of abuse, abuse, child abuse and molestation against him. We've gotten the threat of his own Losing his own children potentially. We've gotten, you know, crazy, avid obsessive plastic surgery and skin color changes and incredible fame. Like just mind numbing, crazy ass fame and attention and then, and then, and then a bizarre death. So that's kind of the arc of the Michael story. But in there, there really has been the question of is he or isn't he on the molestation. It's, everyone wants to know, you know, is he or isn't he? We want to know. I would like to know, you know, if I'm, if I'm at the roulette table and I can put it all on black or white? I guess it's black or red?

[Mark Garagos]

Black or red? Yes.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do I.

[Mark Garagos]

Black and white song. Yes. Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. What, what do I put it on? He was or he wasn't. And I gotta say, I, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't know enough. But there are some very disturbing allegations. So you, I'll start with the most recent, the, you mentioned that there were recent allegations and indeed there are. So this is a family that was supposedly his quote, second family. And they had been defending Michael for all these years, saying no, no, no, no, no. Including I think four, four young children who used to spend tons of time at Neverland Ranch, which was made to look like Disney. I mean, Michael's room, he always used to say he was like Peter Pan who never grew up. And his bedroom had a Peter Pan figure in there, a Captain Hook figure, like hanging from the ceiling. It was all done up to look like a Peter Pan.

[Mark Garagos]

Well, I will tell you, at Neverland, the two things that always struck me was there was a two story video arcade that when you turned on the lights was absolutely incredible. And then you've got, right there, the, the other area that is adjacent, I think as I remember it was adjacent to the theater, which I also thought was the amusement park.

[Megyn Kelly]

He's there with Macaulay Culkin in one of the rides, but keep going.

[Mark Garagos]

So the, the interesting thing, in full disclosure, the family you're talking about is the Casio family. And they, I've spent an enormous time with them. And I will tell you, if you spend time with them, they are convincing, they are persuasive, they, you, you don't have a, a heart. If you doubt the, their, their, their, their emotional damage, Sincerity and sincerity and their authenticity. I, I, I saw it firsthand. I've spent an inordinate amount of time with them, listening to them. I, I used to say about the Arvizo family? Because I used to get, all the time, the question is, did you believe, did you believe back then in real time? And I used to say, well, I will tell you, I don't know about any other accusers, but I know in that particular instance that everything that we investigated, everything that we saw led us to believe that it was a shakedown. And I, I'm not going to be dissuaded from that. I can't speak to, and nor should I ever speak to any of the other accusations. I will, I just know what I know, which is when you look at all of the accusations, when it turns out that the Arvizo family apparently hired the same lawyer that Jordi Chandler had, when you see the kinds of, of history involving the family, all of those things give you great pause. But then sit down and talk with the Cassios and that will give you great pause. And I think that somebody who's not there is going to make their own decision. And it's almost a Rorschach test, I suppose, because we don't have anything along the lines of what sometimes you will have in these cases, which is computers filled with child porn or tapes of the molestation or some kind of an eyewitness or some direct, what's called direct evidence. Even though I often will make the argument circumstantial and direct are equally powerful in a lot of cases, circumstantial is more powerful, but it's a very mind numbing kind of exercise to get into. When you have somebody who is so enormously talented, who's been dead for so long and you're revisiting whether or not there was this unbelievable dark side to him. And that's, I think, what has captivated people. But it certainly did not hurt the box office, which doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, it's one of those things. Like, it would be one thing if they were like Michael Jackson was a shoplifter. You know, he had a Winona Ryder problem, even though he was rich, he just felt the need to do this thing. People would have moved on, who really cares? But he's been accused of literally the worst possible crime you can commit. I mean, it is arguably worse even than murder.

[Mark Garagos]

I will tell you, if you're, God forbid you're ever sent to prison, you would rather be convicted of murder than you would have child molestation. You've got a longer shelf life than for somebody who's a child molester. They just don't last long in Prison, because it's considered the worst of the worst.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, there is a. That there is some weird honor code even amongst the worst among us who have been sent away for. For life, that, you know, you. You hurt a child. You're in a special class of evil. And so, like this guy who we've been spent the first 20, 40 minutes of the show revering and celebrating and, you know, no question about his talent, how much we both admire it, may have been the absolute darkest, worst, most evil thing you can be as a human on this earth. That's.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

That's.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's the incredible mystery around Michael Jackson. And it's also why those of us who want to just celebrate his music and his talent may very much like this biopic, you know, may very much like Michael, because we don't have to deal with it. You know, it ends just as he's about to go on the bad tour. You know, I'm bad. And we. We don't have to even go there. But back to the casting family, to

[Mark Garagos]

the point, to the Castill family. They will tell you, yeah, that's great. You can celebrate all that. We celebrated all that, but you can't. The. Every morning. And I think of one. In one of them in particular, every morning I wake up, I have to deal with this. My life has been ruined. And it's. It's a. It's emotionally, it is impactful in ways that it's hard to just to give voice to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, I mean, of course, if. If you've been the victim of child molestation, I mean, it just is a total game changer. Without heavy, heavy doses of therapy, your life is gonna be really tough to get back on track. Some people have done it, so it's not impossible, but, my God, what a massive challenge that's been given to you. But through no fault of your own. And so the Cassio family has now come forward. They've been longtime defenders of Michael, but now they are alleging in a lawsuit that he did sexually abuse them as children over many years. Many years. They'd long described themselves as his second family. I'm reading here from a New York Times piece appearing publicly, including on Oprah Winfrey show in 2010, to deny allegations against him and defend his reputation. And this is very helpful for Michael because when he was being accused, either posthumously or during the course of his lifetime, to have children like Macaulay Culkin was one of them who had spent a ton of time with him during those tender ages. By the way, pedophilia is is defined in the DSM 5 as sexual attraction to prepubescent children. It specifically says the those prior to age 13. And that was reportedly Michael's thing. Some said between seven and maybe 14 at the oldest was what he. He liked. But to have them come out and say, never me, never me would be very helpful. From the Casio kids to Macaulay Culkin. And there were some others. And they now say that they were groomed, that they were conditioned to protect him. Calling themselves his soldiers and saying that they publicly denied the abuse for years because of fear, manipulation, and emotional dependence. They recently appeared on 60 Minutes Australia. And here's a bit of that.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Feraldo, the family's youngest. At times, the fear was overwhelming. Did you find his appearance scary as a kid?

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Especially when you're in bed with him at night and. And he turns into the zombie and

[Mark Garagos]

you don't love me. You don't love me. His eyes were like this.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Learning there were other victims meant this was no longer just his secret to keep.

[Matt Murphy]

And I was like, oh, my God,

[Mark Garagos]

he did this to other kids.

[Matt Murphy]

That was enough for my courage to just blossom. I was like, no, no, no, no. This isn't made up. This is real.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Aldo decided to tell his family of the abuse he'd endured, unaware he would also be opening the lid on the suffering of each and every one of his siblings.

[Matt Murphy]

I called everyone to meet at my mom and dad's home, and I said, just want you guys to know that

[Mark Garagos]

everything that they're saying is true because it happened to me too.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Aldo's courageous admission led to all his siblings finally sharing what they say Jackson. Jackson had done to them was the

[Advertisement Voice]

hardest thing for me to do was to admit it.

[Mark Garagos]

Oh, yeah.

[Advertisement Voice]

I can't describe the feeling, the range

[Matt Murphy]

of emotions that I was feeling at

[Advertisement Voice]

the time and coming out.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, it's pretty powerful stuff. I mean, I will say just one caveat a little less so, because they filed a lawsuit. Like, if the people who. If people would just come forward and say this happened without then filing the lawsuit lawsuit, I think it would be a lot more powerful. But they. They did say in the context of seeking money, which must be noted. Go ahead.

[Mark Garagos]

Well, they there. We do have a civil justice system, and I. There are clear abuses in the civil justice system. I can think of cases. I'm sitting here in New York and in the Southern District, there's been all kinds of sanctioning of lawyers who bring cases that are patently ridiculous. And so there is that. But in this case think that was the last thing that any of the Cassios wanted. And I talked to them and without betraying attorney client, I will tell you that they tried mightily, I tried mightily to get them what they needed. And it's just a tough, tough situation. Imagine what they're in. They're in a situation where they didn't know the extent of what the others then subsequently told them. Number one. One of the reasons that I thought was most compelling is I remember going to pick up Michael at one point for a court appearance and they told me about that and they told me where they were hidden and it was a location that nobody knew about, meaning a hotel nobody knew that I was picking them up in. And they told me where I was and that I was being hidden from Michael at the time. And it was kind of a stunning story to be told given in retrospect. I too had been a clearly a defender of his, a witness not once but twice during his trial as well. So I'm as perplexed and torn as you are from the outside and having been on the inside as to these cross currents. And it's a, it's a kind of a conundrum that I don't know where ultimately at the end I fall so personally.

[Megyn Kelly]

And he's not here, he's not here to defend himself. And that was the problem too with Finding Neverland. You heard them reference, you know, watching the claims and them the one son then coming out and saying it happened to me too. And he found the two accusers stories in Finding Neverland, quote, documentary to be credible based on his own experience. Now of course I did not save Chuck possibly more than Robson, Wade Robson. And we'll talk about those two next. We have to take a quick break but we've got to talk about Finding Neverland and I which I think did more harm to like these current allegations by the, by this family than good because. Because Wade Robson in particular has got a lot of issues with his story and was clearly caught lying under oath in his civil suit against the Jackson estate, which it's just devastating to the whole story. And Safechuck less so. But also had some money issues before he filed his lawsuit, which the documentary didn't disclose and also didn't come forward until after Michael died. So it's okay. So that's sort of a pattern. We're going to pick up that piece of it right after this quick break. Don't go away. Mark stays with us. Let's talk about an uncomfortable reality. What happens financially to our loved ones once we're no longer here. We put off thinking about it for obvious reasons, but the best thing we can do for our family is to just take a few minutes and deal with this problem problem to ensure that they're not left with a financial burden of mortgage, tuition, medical bills and so on. Okay, Taking steps to financially protect your family is actually easier nowadays than ever. And that is where Ethos comes in. Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy and 100% online. You don't have to deal with real humans. You can get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes and even get same day coverage. There's no medical exam, email even. All you need to do is just answer a few simple health questions and you can get up to 3 million bucks in coverage. You will get the lowest rate from their network of trusted carriers with some policies as low as $30 a month. It's no wonder why Ethos has 4.8 out of 5 stars on Trustpilot with over 4000 reviews. So take 10 minutes to get covered today. Just get it out of the way with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free [e-mail] MK that's E-T-O S.com MK applications times may vary as may rates so good, so good, so good.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love like Vince, Sam, Edelman, Frame

[Megyn Kelly]

and and Free people.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Join the nordiclub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack on May 29.

[Mark Garagos]

From focused features in the producers of Darkest Hour comes pressure. The untold True story of D Day. Facing the wrath of nature and with a largest seaborne invasion in history at stake, the fate of the war rests on the shoulders of two extraordinary men. One impossible decision. Featuring powerful performances from Andrew Scott, Brendan Fraser, Kerry Condon and Damian Lewis. The Untold True Story of D Day Only in theaters May 20th. Rated PG13 may be inappropriate for children under 13. Experience it in Dolby Cinema.

[Megyn Kelly]

Mark Garagos is back with me now. He is a very well known successful attorney and he's also the host of in the well. That is our new MK True Crime show. It's on our MK True Crime channel. If you go to your little podcast button and you just type in MK True Crime and subscribe, you will get in the well. Or you can go to mk true crime.com and it'll show you how to subscribe directly to the show via YouTube etc. But get it because, because it's on fire. After just two episodes they kicked it off with quite a bang. It's Mark Garagos and Matt Murphy. Mark, a lifelong criminal defense attorney and also civil attorney and Matt Murphy lifetime prosecutor. So the two of them in California have gone round and round with each other in the well of the courtroom and out of it and now they bring that expertise to all of you. So we're very lucky to have him. All right, keeping on taking a look at the two men featured in the this Leaving Neverland quote unquote documentary. Wade Robson was they both met Michael when they were children. Wade was this Michael Jackson look alike from Australia who got folded into Michael's orbit. I think he won a contest and met him and might have appeared in like a, a music video with him and went on to become a well known choreographer. Stayed close with the Michael Jackson and estate with Michael himself. Said very very nice things about Michael his whole life actually testified under oath that Michael never laid a hand on him. Both in the 1993 accusations that one didn't go to trial but did testify or told the sheriff. Nothing, absolutely nothing with me. And then in 2003 in your case Mark was again a witness for Jackson under oath. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Then comes this documentary again in quotes Leaving Neverland and he has a very different story. Here is part of it. This is viewer warning disturbing and I must say for the record we took out the most disturbing parts just because it's very dark but you can imagine it sat seven and then him guiding

[Mark Garagos]

me to do the same thing with him. So moving my hands to touch his penis which you know was erect. And I remember him putting my hands

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

on his head when he was down there.

[Mark Garagos]

I'll never forget the feeling of his hair that was rough almost like a,

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

like a brillo Peter like this roughness

[Mark Garagos]

and he's down there and you know, with his, his mouth on, on my, you know, seven year old penis.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay Mark, so I have to say when I watched the, the movie I was horrified and I found him very credible and then I started to research him and let's just say less so. So he sued the Jackson estate reportedly after he found out that he was not going to get this job with Cirque du Soleil and their production of Michael Jackson. Like they Cirque du Soleil had licensed some Michael Jackson songs and they were sort of rehabilitating the mj name and he thought he was going to get a role with them and didn't and reportedly had some sour grapes over it. And then, lo and behold, said I was a victim to, too, and filed a lawsuit against the estate. And in the deposition testimony he had to give in the context of the civil case, was asked, did you ever write anything about these allegations that you're making now? And he claimed under oath, he testified, no, never. But it turned out he had written a whole book alleging that he'd been molested. The defense team demanded the copies of it. My information was he did have to produce what he had, and that took a motion and a judge ordering it, and he wiggled out. He tried to wiggle out of doing it. And then they actually got some of the metadata from the drafts from the publishing companies. They went the defense team to publishing companies saying, did you get a pitch to book about Michael Jackson by Wade Roth Hobson? And they did. And they got their hands on other versions of the book. And his story differed version to version. And then there was testimony of him earlier that made clear he didn't remember the details. But by the time he got around to this documentary, again in quotes, his memory was crystal clear for all of the abuse allegations. All of which left me with a lot of questions, with all due respect to this man, because I don't know whether this happened, and I don't want to attack somebody who may have been molested, but I just have to be honest, did not find the story credible at all when. When it was said and done. Your thoughts?

[Mark Garagos]

Well, the. The experience I've had with Leaving Neverland is famously. They have a clip of me coming out and saying, I'm going to land on you like a ton of bricks, or something along those lines. The implication being is that I was coming out and attacking the. The.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, we have this. Hold on, I'll show the sound bite. This is from the documentary Leaving Neverland. It's you, Sutton. I.

[Matt Murphy]

A news clip of Mark Garagos, who initially represented Michael in 2003 in the Criminal case, is manipulated to appear as if he's threatening an accuser after Michael's arrest.

[Mark Garagos]

We will land on you like a ton of bricks. We will land on you like a hammer. If you do anything to besmirch this man's reputation, anything to intrude on his privacy in any way that's actionable, we will unleash a legal torrent like you've never seen.

[Matt Murphy]

In fact, he was talking about a completely different legal case in which he and Michael were secretly videotaped on board

[Mark Garagos]

a charter aircraft, disclosed that those two video cameras, which also apparently had audio on them, were surreptitiously placed in there, were recording attorney client conversations.

[Megyn Kelly]

So just to make clear, Mark, that was. There was a rebuttal to Leaving Neverland called Lies of Leaving Neverland. It's on YouTube now. And that was one of the lies they were pointing out that they perceived in the documentary as regards. You keep going.

[Mark Garagos]

Correct. And that was one of. It was so offensive to me when Leaving Neverland came out, because what I had described there in the press conference in real time, and what I was so angry, angry about was they had filmed my conversations with him, attorney client, which are sacrosanct, and they were marketing it. In fact, Greta Van Susteren was the one who called me the next day saying, this guy, this lawyer has got the tape and he's shopping it for a million bucks. And I called the lawyer, I said, have you lost your mind? And he said. He said, well, this is my client's lottery ticket. I went into court immediately, got a court order. Before I could execute the court order to go get it, the FBI was there, they seized it from the lawyer, and this guy was indicted who had done the surreptitious taping. So it was a wild situation to then take that and manipulate it. One of the reasons sometimes these documentaries drive me crazy, because it's great to tell a story, and documentaries can be some of the most effective storytelling there is. But you shouldn't really manipulate the facts to the point that you just literally tell a story that is not true. And that's why it was. So.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, then. Then it's a docudrama and not a documentary. And that's. Yeah, so they did that. If they played fast and loose like that with you, what did they do with these other two men who are featured in it? And I just think. I don't know whether those. Those facts are fatal to Wade Robson's claim, which has been resurrected because California passed one of those laws like New York did, where claims that were out of time and were sort of dead claims could be resurrected for a brief period of time if they related to sexual abuse. And Wade and James Safechuck took advantage of that and got their claims against the MJ Estate resurrected. They go on to this day as a result. Well, but I do know that as a. As a journalist or a storyteller doing a documentary, you might. Must include the credibility problems in your documentary and let the audience decide. And this guy did not do that on either one of these men, which is a failing. It is a fatal flaw in the presentation.

[Mark Garagos]

By the way, if you're in a jury trial and this happened, say that this kind of manipulation happened. You would get a jury instruction that says a witness who is willfully false, false in a material part of his testimony, he or she can be and should be disbelieved in others. I was thinking this morning, it's funny, Megan, that before I did this, I was watching the closing argument in Harvey Weinstein's third trial here in New York in the Manhattan court Marc Agniflo was giving it. I ran into, speaking of podcasts, Arthur Aydala, who tried it the second time, and he sends his regards. And I was thinking as I sat there about this, the accuser in this third trial and such damaged goods. No matter what you you say, given the testimony, given the medical records, the accuser is clearly has mental health issues that are off the charts. So the argument becomes when you're analyzing it, did the abuse cause this or is. Is the, are the mental health chicken or egg? Is it the mental health that is causing the person to make the accusation? And those kinds of determinations should be left up to jurors in the courtroom and viewers in documentary. To your point, why ignore things that could be credibility issues? Let people decide based on a fulsome record as opposed to a skewed argument or kind of a rhetorical device.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, absolutely. There was in that lies of Leaving Neverland. They pointed out this thing I just mentioned about how Wade's deposition reveals that he had to ask his mom to remember details about the alleged abuse. And that was at an earlier point in time than when he's with Leaving Neverland remembering them all. He's got great details. He's a good storyteller. He can really take you there if you watch the documentary again in quotes. Boy, he really adds a lot of color. None of which he remembered years earlier when he was under oath and asked to tell this story. So it's. There are a lot of questions. James Safechuck. He made equally disturbing allegations in the peace leaving Neverland. The knock against him is that he was reportedly facing a serious lawsuit that hit right before he sat down for that documentary and was facing some financial, some serious financial threats. And that would have incentivized his filing a civil suit, as he did and participating with this, quote, documentary. And again, that may not move you at all, but it should be disclosed by a filmmaker. In any event, here's James Safechuck in part again with a viewer warning on the disturbing nature of what he's going to say inside eight at the train station.

[Mark Garagos]

There's a room upstairs

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

and we would

[Mark Garagos]

have sex up there too. Would happen every day. It sounds sick, but it's kind of like when you're first dating somebody, right. You do a lot of it. So it was very much like that.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

He liked

[Mark Garagos]

if I rubbed his nipples. So we would do stuff and then in the end, when he wanted to ejaculate, he would, he would finish himself. You'd be in the hotel room and he would pretend like somebody was coming,

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

coming in and you had to get

[Mark Garagos]

dressed as fast as possible without making noise. So not getting caught was a big, like just kind of fundamental. It was very much a secret. And he would tell me that if anybody found out, his life would be over and my life would be over.

[Megyn Kelly]

So he did say there that he remembers the abuse in Michael Jackson's train station. He had like a, you know, like

[Mark Garagos]

a. I was just gonna say, you know, you mentioned Matt Murphy and my podcast partner, Matt Handle. In fact, Matt and I faced off on a number of sex crime prosecutions. And Matt, I'm going to channel him and say that he would say the, that some of those things have the, the kind of insignia or indicia of what he has seen repeatedly and what I've seen coming at clients who were accused as well. So it's a very tough situation. I don't think there are any easy answers. And the, the look back statutes which you referenced, which are these statutes that revive statutes of limitations that have already expired, they actually start, started when in the criminal context. And there was a case, Stodner, where they said you can't prosecute somebody criminally when you're going to take away their liberty after the statute has expired. But they left open the issue on these civil cases and some of these civil cases and these look back statutes present real problems from my standpoint, when you're trying to relitigate these later on, years later, when somebody didn't have notice,

[Megyn Kelly]

like the defendant is dead.

[Mark Garagos]

Yeah. And now you've got the estate and you've got, and you, you don't see it happening against somebody who's a, to quote my other podcast and, and close friend Adam Corolla, you never see people coming after the empty bags. So there is that as well. So it really is a conundrum.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, it's, it reminds me of the Christine Blasey Ford situation against Brett Kavanaugh. Where it's like, how is the guy supposed to defend himself 30 years later on, you know, what he did or did not do on a particular day? Now in that case where you're dealing with a form, with a, with a would be Supreme Court justice. So it just so happened he did have detailed day planners even from his time as a teenager, which was, was extraordinary and to his great luck. But, I mean, Trump didn't. When Eugene Carroll tried to come after him and claim he raped her in a Bergdorf Goodman dressing, if he, if she had brought that claim that year or within, you know, two years or five years, he could have defended it. He could easily looked up on his computer. No, this is what I was doing that day, that that didn't happen. It's just allowing this to be brought decades after the fact just, just sets the poor defendants up for certain disappointment.

[Mark Garagos]

It's precise. It's precisely why you have a statute of limitations. I mean, there is a reason why there is a statute of limitations with carved out exceptions, traditionally for hundreds of years for things like murder, obviously there should be. And you can think of every public policy reason why there shouldn't be a statute of limitations for murder. And fast forward now to cold case DNA, things of that nature. And it makes perfect sense. But for other things where it is traditionally a he said, she said. And when you're in what I like to call money court, which is what civil court is, you're over there fighting over other people's money. There ought to be some bright line at a certain point where it doesn't change. I think back to when sitting here in the York, the Adult Survivors act was about to expire, and the number of clients I had on the eve of that expiration who were handling cases, trying to settle cases just because they didn't want to have to undergo the torrential downpour of the media lynching, so to speak, which also. Yes, which also people tend to forget, is a real problem. You can win the case eventually. It can get thrown out eventually, but it does. How do you get your reputation back? To quote the original Ray Donovan?

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, that's like this JP Morgan sexual assault allegation that's being made by this guy who tried to go under John Doe, who was also JP Morgan against this poor woman who I don't think did anything. I don't believe him. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I don't believe one word of what this guy is alleging. But it's the same thing where, you know, he's Completely smearing her day after day after day. And it comes out that JP Morgan, Morgan offered him a million dollars to settle this thing, which they said was reportedly two years of his salary. So it's for them it's a rounding error, Mark. It's JP Morgan, they've got more money than the US government. And by the way, that must mean they think she did it. I'm like, no, that does not mean they think she did it at all.

[Mark Garagos]

I, I, you can, I could, I could count a series of employees that I have extricated from large corporations, friends mostly in the last two years where I have gotten them that kind of money as a severance when they are either laid off or they're perp locked out of the place. So for those who think the 1 million signifies guilt or an acknowledgement of guilt. No, it's when you have a high earner and you want to separate. I, I'm old enough to remember when nuisance value was 15 grand and now nuisance value is a million and a half. So that's, that's just the reality of it, especially in corporate America.

[Megyn Kelly]

Exactly. Like you point out the higher earnings of the person threatening you, the more it's going to cost to make them go away quietly. Even if you think their claim is total bullshit, which JP Morgan says this is because they say, among other things, he produced none of his records, his phone, all the things that he claims support him, he wouldn't produce. They say where she did? They say she handed over the phone. Take it, look at everything, talk to everyone. I never laid a hand on this guy, but I'm having my reputation ruined nonetheless. All right, back to Michael. And Matt Murphy's here, by the way. We're going to bring him in in a minute. But I do want to play these two, so sound bites on. And I have to point out the one thing on Save Chuck though, he mentioned that he was allegedly abused in this, like Disney esque train station that Michael had built on Neverland, his property, which is made to look like, you know, Peter Pan's world.

[Mark Garagos]

It is very, I'll tell you, it is very Disney esque.

[Megyn Kelly]

I definitely want to talk to you about it. But what happened after the documentary in quotes dropped was Jackson biographer Mike Smallcomb revealed that that train station was not built until 1994. And in the documentary, James Safechu claims he was abused from 1988 till 1992 and therefore could never have been molested in a room at the Neverland train station. This guy Smallcomb tweeted out. Santa Barbara county construction permits showing approval for the building did not happen until September 1993. So that would seem to be a pretty glaring error.

[Mark Garagos]

That's one of those.

[Megyn Kelly]

In response to that, that's a no shit moment for the director, Dan Reed.

[Mark Garagos]

But instead, if you're the defense lawyer and you find that fact, you can only imagine what you're saying to your associates at the time.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, it's not ideal. Oh, we have a clip of the director's response, do we? Okay. So once again, from Lies of Neverland, the rebuttal, they address this. Let's watch it.

[Narrator/Documentary Clips]

He says that one of the locations where Michael Jackson was abusing him on a daily basis was the Neverland train station. And he vividly describes the interior of the train station. Now, this version of the story that he tells in the TV show places that abuse in the train station in 1988-89. The train station did not even open until 1994. And as you correctly say in his sworn declaration in his ongoing litigation with the estate, he says that Michael Jackson stopped molesting him when he was around 14 years old in 1992 because he got too old for him. And the whole narrative of this film is that Michael Jackson molests boys, and then when the boys hit puberty and get too old, he then ditches them and moves on to a younger boy. That's the whole narrative that they're selling with this document documentary. But when it's revealed that this location where Safechuck is describing his abuse is, it did not exist when he was the age he said he was, Dan Reed, the director of the documentary, goes on to Twitter and says, well, there's no dispute about when the train station was built, but what's in dispute is the dates of the abuse.

[Mark Garagos]

Right?

[Narrator/Documentary Clips]

So James Safechuck was abused after the. After the train station was built. Well, firstly, he is now accusing his own star witness of perjury because James Safechuck has signed not one, but two sworn declarations in which he states that Michael Jackson never abused him after 1992. So in order to defend his documentary, he's throwing its star witness under the bus.

[Megyn Kelly]

Very persuasive. And Mark, on top of that, even if you extend the period of abuse to 1994, post when the train station went up. Now, James Safechuck is pushing 17. And during that time, Michael was living in New York for most of the year. He wasn't sitting at Neverland with James Safechuck, according to those who knew him. So it does raise questions about whether these two complainants in finding Neville or leaving Neverland, who had previously testified repeatedly that Michael never touched them, but after he died, and they fell on hard times, then came forward and said he did, how much credibility we can give them. And Wade Robson was another one who was reportedly found to have been looking up news articles about what had happened to other boys. Now that could be the behavior of a victim too. Just trying to get back to that chick. Or it could be somebody. Yeah, or it could be somebody who, you know, was looking for details he didn't have because it didn't happen happen to him. So all of this. Okay, but that leads me to where I wanted to go with you, which is you mentioned a moment ago the nice maid. You knew it at Neverland. And Was that Adrian McManus? It was a different nice maid. Okay. Because speaking of 60 Minutes Australia, he's shaking his head no, it wasn't her. Speaking of 60 Minutes Australia, which I think we all need to start watching, a former Jackson maid named Adrian McManus gave some damning testimony about Michael and what she eventually started to clean up in Michael's bedroom. She said after three months, they said, now you can start working, you can start cleaning Michael's bedroom. At first they just gave her the rules of like, don't look at Michael, don't talk to Michael. You know, you're not friends with Michael, you're the maid here. And then she did get to know him a little and she said he was very nice to her. And then she started cleaning his bedroom. Bedroom. And didn't, didn't go well. This is an allegation and here is part of it.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

And underwear is also in his bed. I, I did find underwears that were minch briefs in the walk in closet. And they were. I, and I don't like to say this, they were like crunchy, hard with yellow stains all over them. I didn't know who they belonged to because the little boys started wearing Michael's briefs. There was a lot of Vaseline at Neverland. Sometimes it was found in the golf carts when Mr. Jackson would take off with, with the boys.

[Mark Garagos]

Vaseline?

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Yeah, Vaseline. And there was a lot of Vaseline in Michael's bedroom. It was actually all over the place. Ranch.

[Mark Garagos]

Is there possibly an innocent explanation for that?

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

I don't think so.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, okay, now I say on the Vaseline, like the guy was the king of plastic surgery, so who the hell knows what he needed the Vaseline for, You know what I mean? Like, maybe that Makes you go from black to white or. Or soothes the. The journey somehow, or the scars he must have had all over him. I don't.

[Mark Garagos]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

Remember Vaseline in the golf cart, Right.

[Mark Garagos]

I don't remember.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Sure.

[Mark Garagos]

The Vaseline. You know, I'm. I'm still PTSD from baby oil last year with Diddy, and so I'm always. I. I think there's a. I take all of that with a certain grain of salt. But, you know, the interesting thing is here that I believe the case is set for trial next year in the Beverly hills courthouse in 2027. So we're going to have.

[Megyn Kelly]

Have Wade, Robson and James.

[Mark Garagos]

I think that's set for trial 2027, Beverly Hills courthouse. And if I'm not mistaken, then if that's televised, I can't even imagine what that's going to be like. I mean, the. Oh, my God, that will be. And I. Frankly, for a case like this, that's where this belongs in a courtroom to try and settle it in with admissible evidence, as opposed to kind of speculation or this. That things floating out in the ether. I think that that's one of the great things about being in a courtroom is that you can actually get the evidence. I was thinking yesterday, completely off topic about that, but this Rebecca Grossman and the picture and that civil trial that's being tried in Los Angeles right now, that's being televised, where she was convicted of the murder of the two little scander boys, and we're finding out stuff in the civil trial that never knew about in the criminal trial. I have a sneaking suspicion. I know the lawyers involved and they're all really top flight. That we will find out a lot that we didn't know and. And that has been reported once we get into trial next year.

[Megyn Kelly]

Mm. I mean, in very few of these cases where you have a sexually molested child or a sexually abused woman, do you have somebody who. Whose testimonial is totally pristine and they have absolutely no credibility issues? I mean, they're humans. You know, like most humans have some credibility problems if you really dug deep or, you know, if you've been victimized by somebody who's extremely wealthy and famous, you probably would file a civil lawsuit like, f them. You're, you know, so it's like, it's very hard to find. Just like the perfect, literally little, you know, sweet Pollyanna who has absolutely no dirt on her to come forward and say, this happened to me. You know, I want to keep that in mind as we go over these

[Mark Garagos]

testimonials and to that, to that point, there are cases where some of the most heartbreaking cases in the criminal justice system are young children testifying against the family member. And then you say to yourself, why would they lie? Then you, if it's against the backdrop of a custody fight or something like that, and then it turns out that one of the mom or dad is programming the child. And upon cross examination, you find that out. I mean, these are the kinds of struggles that you deal with in trials. And that's. I would never want to be a juror in those kinds of cases, but they happen every day across the country.

[Megyn Kelly]

I do want to say this about this woman, Adrienne McManus, the maid. So she was a prosecution witness in 2003. By the way, Matt Murphy just joined us. Hi. Welcome to the party. Matt, lifelong prosecutor, now doing some defense work, some criminal defense work, but only for cops, because that's how I was

[Mark Garagos]

just going to say. Yeah, you gotta. You gotta pass the first responder law enforcement litmus fest with Matt for. He'll defend you.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's what we love about him. Mark, can I just say after watching

[Matt Murphy]

this little clips, I'm Mark. He's much more handsome now with the gray hair. Megan, I'm just gonna go out there and say he looks good.

[Megyn Kelly]

You don't have an additional line on your face, which is saying something. For a Californian in particular, it makes

[Matt Murphy]

him even more freaking persuasive, which is maddening to me in so many different ways. But.

[Mark Garagos]

Well, I want to know, Matt.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's the last thing we want from him.

[Mark Garagos]

To Megan's point, have you ever had a pristine complainant as a witness when you were prosecuting case?

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, there's always. It's always messy. And what you were just saying, Mark, it's giving me flashbacks, those custody disputes. Megan, just so you know, I used to have a sexual assault detective named Don Howell at Huntington Beach Police Department. And if you can believe this one, Mark, he was in there for about 25 years. I'm sure you've. You encountered him at one point or another multiple times. He used to send me the custody dispute stuff with a yellow stick on it with R and R, which stood for read and reject, because there's. It's so common that. That those are false allegations and it really undermines the integrity of real victims.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. I just. I wanted to just offer one thought on the maid because we kind of left that testimonial hanging out there. But the truth is that she was accused earlier of having Stolen on the job while she was working for Jackson during the trial. Also on a separate point, she identified one of the boys who she allegedly saw Michael Chef Jackson kissing. And she said she saw him touching their bottoms or their crotches. And she identified one of them as Macaulay Culkin. He too has denied ever being molested in any way, shape or form by Michael Jackson. So you know, she, she's also got with there's some questions about her testimonial and her credibility and certainly her honesty if she was accused of stealing. So all these witnesses have something. But here's, there's a reason I brought in Matt now because the worst soundbite. I mean it's to me it's worse than anything we heard from Wade, from James Safechuck, from the maid, it's from Michael himself. And Mark Garagos mentioned it at the beginning of our discussion as the thing from the Martin Bashir sit down that would change the trajectory of Michael's life, would get the authorities interested in him. He would get charged, there was a possibility of losing custody of his children. The drugs, the ultimately early untimely death. And it was this crazy ass exchange I'm going to show here in Sat 4.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

Can you understand why people would worry about that? Because they're ignorant. But is it really appropriate for a

[Narrator/Documentary Clips]

44 year old man to share a

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

bedroom with a child who is not related to him at all? That's a beautiful thing. That's. That's not a worrying thing. Why should it be worrying? Who's the criminal? Who's, who's Jack the Ripper in the room? Did you ever sleep in the bed with them? No, but I have slept in the bed with many children. I sleep in the bed with all of them. When Macaulay Culkin were little, Kieran Culkin would sleep on this side, Macaulay Cook is on this side, his sister's in there. We're all just jamming the bed. Is that right, Michael Cool is very right. It's very loving. That's what the world needs now, more love.

[Mark Garagos]

Mark I will tell you at the

[Megyn Kelly]

time, every sane person recoils.

[Mark Garagos]

Yes. And I will tell you at the time that that was one of the reasons that the calculation was made to do that two part 60 Minutes interview. Because that was, to my mind at least was an insurmountable or close, most insurmountable thing to get over. By the way, why is it always in my cases that it's ABC who does the interview that ends up I have to deal with later, I don't know what it is, whether it's Martin Bashir or Diane Sawyer, but it's always, it's always.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll tell you why. I know the answer. I know the answer because ABC does a lot of crime to its credit. I mean, I think all three of us are very into crime and ABC does way more of that than CBS or NBC even, which has Date Line. But abc, that's kind of one of their main beats. So I think that's why all this.

[Mark Garagos]

I was this many years old before I understood that. Thank you. Because it always seems, it always seems like I'm fighting ABC to get the outtakes from the interview that the client did before I met the client.

[Megyn Kelly]

I think that's why, Matt, I've got to ask you, because in the course of your lifelong career as a prosecutor, you did a lot of sex corporations crimes. We've talked about that. And I'm sure you've got a thought, you're a Californian as well. On the Michael Jackson situation. I mean, there's been. Now we, we talked about him being accused in 1993 for an eight figure settlement. That plaintiff went away. Then there was an actual criminal trial trial by another accuser in 2003. He was found not guilty in that case by a jury that was the one in which he moonwalked on the van the day of his infant indictment. Now we have at least these two other accusers coming forward in leaving Neverland, Wade and James, who we just went through. Now we have this family of four kids who we discussed with Mark, who had been like his second family, the Casios, saying it happened to all four of them, even though they've all, all of these people had been denying that it had ever happened and had been great witnesses for Michael not wanting to admit what they say is the truth. So. So as a prosecutor, how does all this grab you?

[Matt Murphy]

Well, as a prosecutor, you always want as many statements to the defendant as possible. And you know what? This, the Michael Jackson thing, I think we were all shocked back in those days when we saw that interview. And much credit to Martin Beshears because he asked him the tough questions and he kind of asked exactly what we were all thinking in the middle of that. Is that really appropriate? And we saw the answer. My boss, he's like a mentor of mine, Lou Rosenblum, when I left the DA's office and he'd been in private practice for six or seven years, he hit me with a real gem that I know Mark is going to appreciate Here he said, always remember, never forget. The way these people think doesn't stop simply because they've gotten into trouble. And now you've decided to represent them. You know, it's. And you see these interviews by people whose currency has been the media, like Michael Jackson or like Prince Andrew. I'm sure you saw that the, the Guthrie interview.

[Megyn Kelly]

That was the biggest.

[Matt Murphy]

It was. He's still suffering the consequences of that absolute meltdown. Kind of like we saw with the, the Michael Jackson clip. We just, we just watched. It doesn't take much to shift the public perception. Or another, another case that's out there right now that I was talking to Harvey Levin about yesterday, Mark, and that's this David case. As soon as Nathan Hockman came out and said, we've got child pornography on the phone phone, everybody ran for the exits. So there's. It doesn't take much, especially in cases like this. You know, as a prosecutor, you always want them talking, and you want them talking for as long as possible, because if they say something like that, you've got a real weapon in your arsenal when it comes to prosecuting them.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm thinking about Alex Murdoch, who insisted on taking the stand at his family annihilation trial in South Carolina. It was a disaster for him. He thought he could outwit the prosecutors just like they all do and none can. You know, it's like, like, it's like my old pal from Jones Day used to say. He had a great story of being across from the CEO of a company who was suing a Jones Day client. So he was with that CEO who was suing his client and the CEO's lawyer. And it was like the eve of trial, are we going to settle this or aren't we? And he looked at that CEO and who was refusing to settle. And my friend knew the guy ought to settle and said to him, look, is it possible that when I get you on the stand, you will have a very, very good day and I will have a very, very bad day? No, it's not possible. It's not possible. Like, you're not going to outwit me. And sure enough, that guy settled, as they all should. It's like if you have a really talented, talented civil attorney crossing you, or if you have a lifelong prosecutor who knows his stuff, you're going down. You're not going to outsmart the. Matt.

[Matt Murphy]

There's probably nobody in the world right now, Megan, more than the guy that's sitting, sitting there with us right now, Mark Ergos, who's Probably had that hard conversation again and again. And as he sits there, he can't talk about it because it's all probably clients we all know or heard of, and he can't reveal any attorney client. And I know he's just jumping out of his skin right now because he's got so many examples of that that he can't share. But yeah, that's Scott Peterson. Oh, so many.

[Mark Garagos]

She was going to go there. Well, my father, who was my hero mentor, used to say it's a rare case for the defense that gets better after the prosecution rests. And, boy, isn't that the truth. I, I remember one case in particular remain nameless where I had tried, I thought, the best murder case case I had ever tried as a defense lawyer. And then my client insisted that he was going to take the stand. And I actually took him into chambers and I said, I will quit before I put this guy on the stand. I know it's his absolute right, but I can't let him on. And sure enough, he took the stand and he did well for the first day. And I refused to take him on direct. I had one of my assistants, associates to it. I just said, I'm not going to be a party to this massacre. But by day two, the prosecutor had so dismantled him that. And afterwards, the jurors, speaking of Dateline, who were interviewed by Dateline, the foreperson said we were never going to convict him until he took the stand. And that's your worst nightmare.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so I want to shift gears, though, in the time that we have, because. Because I teased at the top of the show two things. I teased Katie Porter and who she's saying released that tape, which we don't have time for. That was actually, we're going to have to do that tomorrow. But I will play, I promise. Mark Halpern's here tomorrow and we are going to play it and we're going to take a deep dive into it because we've actually looked into her claims.

[Mark Garagos]

Why does Mark Halpern have all the fun of Katie Porter? I mean, has there ever been a worse. As a lifelong Democrat in California, how did we get to the point where Katie Porter is the our best and brightest? I don't even understand that. It makes zero sense to me. The woman has absolutely no redeeming qualities as a political candidate. You wouldn't hire her to run your 7 11, and we're gonna hire her to run the fourth largest economy in the country.

[Megyn Kelly]

What is this blaspheme against the clearly most qualified candidate Don't. She deserves this and so do I. That's the important thing, Mark. The people of America deserve to see this white woman ascend and beat up. If we have to have a Democrat, we can't have, have, you know, you can't have confidence.

[Mark Garagos]

God forbid you've got confidence. God forbid somebody runs who actually has run something before.

[Megyn Kelly]

Steve Hilton would be great. Chad Bianca would be great. But if we can't have them, it's got to be Katie. She's the one who needs to do it because we deserve that. Okay. But anyway, what we teased was the Blake Lively settlement. And her lawyers are already, Eddie, making a bunch of noise and also trying to spin the pre existing understanding that they were going to recover some attorney's fees because he, he sued her, he countersued her for defamation and that claim was thrown out. And there's a California statute that protects alleged victims of sexual harassment from getting sued for defamation. Because this is something that a lot of defendants will do saying if you do that and the person who was claiming to have been sexually harassed has any sort of good faith basis for saying she was sexually harassed, and your defamation lawsuit against her then gets thrown out, as it was here, you are going to be able to recover your lawyer's fees against that defendant who's who filed a counterclaim for defamation. So she did get his defamation claim thrown out. She is entitled to some measure of fees. We knew that a year ago when that happened. And now that she's willingly settled all the rest of her claims, whatever existed of them, because most of her case got thrown out too, she's willingly walked away from all of them. And she's trying to spin the remainder of those features fees as her big victory. She's won, you see. She's won. Meanwhile, we all knew you were getting some measure of fees. Here's her lawyer on a podcast just the other day. Hold on a second. It's. What's the name of this show? The Town. And it was on May 8th on a little spin. Okay, let's listen to. Is it. Well, you guys play it. You've been looking at it. I don't know which one. It's 1919 A.

[Advertisement Voice]

So let me tell you why our client is happy, ecstatic with this settlement. The reason that our client is happy with this settlement is because it gives her the power and the opportunity to pursue what we believe is her most potent and powerful claim in a way that is efficient, in a way that is final, in a way that the defendants have no appeal rights. Over and in a way that cuts off most of the noise that would be surrounding this case and lets us get straight to the core issue of how the defendants retaliated against her. Specifically the retaliatory lawsuit that they filed that called her a liar, that branded her a liar. And it's not one of these statutes where there's discretion for awarding the damages once the conditions are met. And we believe the conditions have essentially already been met. And what's important about that, Matt, is that they filed a $400 million dollar defamation lawsuit against our client, against Ryan Reynolds, against Leslie Sloan. They claimed that all of this was a lie. It was all made up and they were going to prove it in court. They lost that.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, oh my God. Wait, can I just to say that this was the best claim that they had all along for attorneys fees on the thrown out defamation cross claim. That's what a. What a revisionist history, Garrett.

[Mark Garagos]

Well, first of all, this is is what's called anti S slap. And there is this peculiar section 47.1, whatever it is, that says if you prevail you can get your attorney's fees if somebody comes after you. There's one problem with that. As you pointed out, Judge Lyman has had this on his docket, so to speak, since last year, number one. Number two, Blake Livesley Lively's claims were just gutted like a rainbow trout.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, no, you see, you don't know what you're talking about, Mark. This in fact was her most potent and powerful claim all along for the attorney's fees expended defending his defamation claim.

[Mark Garagos]

And by the way, I think if somebody were to check pacer, which is the federal electronic docket, I believe that that gentleman who was interviewed just there by the. I think that was by the Puck outlet. I think he filed a request or the. One of his brethren filed a request to augment the briefing of what has been pending since last September. Asked for, I believe, a five page brief to supplement their arguments. That was.

[Megyn Kelly]

And he said no.

[Mark Garagos]

Summarily denied in record time for federal court number one. Number two, remember Judge Lyman? I've said this before, I don't know him, but I knew his father. And his father, Arthur Lyman was a lion of the bar and first Amendment. I mean he was one of the go to lawyers. I don't know that the son falls too far from the father, but his father would have been appalled by the idea of this section 47 that somehow, somehow if you cross complain that you are eliminated from the ability to petition in court. To vindicate your rights, because that's basically what it is, stripping you of your rights. I just don't think, number one, that there's going to be anything of great note number one. Number two, remember all of this is speaking of noise. There are probably 10 insurance companies behind all of this. This fighting for who's got to pay, reservation of rights, subrogation, indemnification. This is never going to come out of their pockets. It's always going to come out of the insurance company pockets.

[Megyn Kelly]

So this is what I mean. I'm going to have to look it up in black's law dictionary map. But I believe this is what we call lies. What this lawyer is saying. This has been their, their purest and most potent claim all along. Most potent and most powerful. Those are lies. Take the next 22 seconds and weigh in and then we'll come back right after this break.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, the funny thing for me is watching Mark's face as we're both listening to that clip because I can see it and it's like we're both literally laughing out loud. Albert Einstein had a great, had an great quote that applies to the practice of law. He said, if you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough. And I could add, or it's just pure spin. And what we're watching, it's just you

[Megyn Kelly]

are so desperately trying on this podcast. Yeah, I mean, wait, stand by. Quick, quick, quick break. Back with these two guys on the opposite side. Don't go away. You might already own a firearm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger? This is where Burna comes in. That's by R N A. Burna's less lethal launch launchers are equipped with tear gas and kinetic ammunition and designed to incapacitate an attacker for up to 40 minutes. And Burna is excited to introduce the all new compact launcher. It's a sleek, slim device and it hits like a sledgehammer. The same size as a smartphone, allowing women to conceal, carry everywhere comfortably and with confidence. It fires at 400ft per second per second. That's a lot of power to stop aggressors in their tracks before they get anywhere near you. Their pistols are American made and hand assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana with over 80% of the components in the compact launcher being sourced in the usa. I mean, burn is amazing even without that, but it's very nice to know that's true. Burna is legal in all 50 states it requires no background checks and it can be shipped directly to your door. And Burna is trusted by hundreds of police departments too. So this is a great device even if you are a firearm owner. And if you're not, this is something that you might be comfortable with, right? Like a lot of women I know are worried if they get a gun, it's going to be used on them and it's lights out. Well, if this gets used on you, it's not lights out. It's an uncomfortable thing that may stop you or incapacitate you for a while. But it's not lights out and it will make you feel better. God forbid you get that scary sound happening in the middle of the night and someone is there who shouldn't be. Alright, so try before you buy if you want by visiting Burna.com and you can find a Burner dealer partner near you. That's by r n a.com We've all been there. Stuck in a rigid multi year security contract with cancellation fees so high they feel like a ransom note. It's frustrating, right? Security should not feel like a trap. But let me tell you about Simplisafe. They completely changed the game by offering 247 professional models monitoring that's actually affordable. With no long term contracts. Simplisafe can give genuine peace of mind. With Simplisafe, you can arm your system right from your phone. The setup is a total breeze too. You can have your whole system customized exactly to your home's layout. Up and running in about 30 minutes. From indoor and outdoor cameras to sensors that detect fires and floods. It's comprehensive protection backed by agents ready to dispatch help. You will get 50% off a new system when you sign up for professional monitoring. And your first month is free by visiting Simply Safe. That's simply S I m p l I.com okay. Simply safe.com simplisafe.com Megan that's half off@simply safe.com Megan there's no safe like Simply Safe. Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news. I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM. It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel. And it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies. Along with the Megyn Kelly show, you're gonna hear from people like Mark Halperin, link Lauren Maureen Callahan, Emily Drishinski, Jesse Kelly, RealClear Politics and many more. It's bold. No BS news only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, Sirius XM111 and on the SiriusXM app. Mark Garagos and Matt Murphy are back with me. They are the host of the brand new show on the MK True Crime podcast feed. It's called in the well. Go and find it. Every Friday on the MK True Crime YouTube channel and all podcast feeds, you just type in MK True Crime and if you hit subscribe, you will get in the well in addition to our other True Crime offerings. Well worth your time. Matt, let me stick with you on just the Continuing with the absurdity, I've got some more from this lawyer, Michael Gottlieb on the town. But the notion in there that she's ecstatic with the settlement because her of her ability to pursue this most potent and powerful claim for attorney's fees, not damages, attorney's fees.

[Mark Garagos]

So what are you hoping to get here? Give me a best case scenario, dollar amount. Amount that you could collect and from who.

[Advertisement Voice]

So I want to step back from that because this lawsuit has never been principally about money for our client. It has been about accountability. It has been about shining a light on this underground smear machine that retaliated against her for raising claims of sexual harassment and retaliation and has harmed so many other people. And what you've seen since Blake stood up and brought this lawsuit is evidence coming out in our case that has law led to information being used now in other litigations. The Nicholas case, the Amanda Ghost case. This underground smear machine has been exposed and people are now on notice that if they see, you know, if you see a mattbellonysucks.net website pop up, you're gonna maybe have an idea of who might have put that website up.

[Megyn Kelly]

Really, we should be grateful to Blake is what he's saying. Matt, no one's gonna get smeared anymore on the Internet because of her.

[Matt Murphy]

You know, Mark and I actually had this conversation before Megan, and it's counterintuitive to me that when you're talking about defamation, because we learned in law school that in a defamation case, truth is always an absolute defense. Right. So in this retaliation claim, one of the things I had a hard time wrapping my head around is that truth would not operate as a defense. And if you look at the interviews with Blake Lively and that Norwegian journalist, her last name is Klaus. I think she just.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's spelled Kajersti, but I've just learned it's pronounced shirsty. Shasty. Shasty, right.

[Matt Murphy]

And she's. Here's this.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know who you.

[Matt Murphy]

She's doing her job. It's some press junket for a Woody Allen film from like 2016. And she's just asking basic questions. And her. Blake Lively and Parker Posey, they transform into the mean girls that we all saw in eighth grade that we all, every single person, person is triggered who went to public school by. It's like we, we see that, you know what I mean? And, and the idea that that got released and somehow they can point the finger back and blame Jason Baldoni or anybody else for that. I mean, she's, she's got to live with that. And, and I'm not over Parker Posey either. She was also kind of a freaking. No, really mean.

[Megyn Kelly]

She looked terrible. She, she was equally nasty.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So. And then there was that, you heard it there. I mean, remark that, that basically there's not going to be any more harassment on the Internet because of Blake Lively. This is a fantasy. Harassment on the Internet was a thing before this trial, this case, and it will be a thing after this case. We're allowed to dislike her. We're allowed to write terrible things about her. When it's phrased in terms of our opinion, you can't make up facts about somebody. They're false. But if we think she's a terrible, terrible, spoiled, mean girl bully, we're free to say that. And we do think that. And we think that based on the interview with Chesty, among many other clips and behaviors by Blake Lively. And for this guy to be pretending that she was really just an avenger for others. Meanwhile, you and I both know it was her thin to her tissue paper thin skin that led her to bring this lawsuit. Because she was like, there's no way anyone could possibly just hate me organically. Justin had to have made it happen.

[Mark Garagos]

Can you imagine, and just do this thought experiment. Can you imagine how disappointed my good friend Brian Friedman was to not be able to try this case against this guy? I mean, people talk about cross examining Blake and whatever, but for people who do this for a living, when you get an opponent or an adversary that is this tone deaf, you have to say to yourself, and I've had this so many times where guys have told me I've never lost the case and blah, blah, blah. Usually some US Attorney, but big firm lawyers suffer from the same thing because they're in that same axis of evil, so to speak. They, there is a tone, death, removal from reality that you just, they just don't understand the person who interviewed him in this. You should read the kind of tongue in cheek, or maybe it was their website yesterday article about how bad this interview was. And it just to matter. Matt's point, and to what my father used to say is clients get the lawyers they deserve. And boy, that holds true here.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, and Justin Baldoni did too. There's one more. The questioning was about whether he had the right strategy. Right. Is that the one? Is that the. I'm looking at my SOT list here. Yeah, let's listen to SOT 19C.

[Mark Garagos]

The lesson from this case, isn't it that you have to think really, really hard before you initiate a case like this. If you are a major celebrity and you have brand businesses and a film career and you want that to be what people know about you, not the back and forth bombs being dropped, I

[Advertisement Voice]

think you gotta wait and see what we accomplish in our 47 one before you write the final chapter of that book. But what I would say, Matt, is I don't think it's an option to sit back. People assassinate your character and reputation with untraceable digital smear campaigns. I think when you discover that somebody has done that to you, that bringing that to light and holding those people accountable is important. And I think that what Ms. Lively's lawsuit has shown is that there actually is a way to do that. You can shine a light on it.

[Megyn Kelly]

This Matt Murphy. This is so wrong on so many levels. Okay, can I just tell you, I think told the audience this before, but back in 2016, 17, when Trump and I were going round and round for nine months, he was coming for me. And then I left Fox and I went to NBC. David Pecker, who owned and ran the National Enquirer, was out to get me. I mean, I can't even count the number of hit pieces that he dropped. I was literally on the COVID of the National Enquirer with the headline World's Most Hated Mind Mom. Okay, on the COVID with my picture. Now, did I try to get to the bot. It's David Pecker. He's friends with Trump. This. These are lies he's telling. Not the most hated. There are a lot of more hated people. What about Casey Anthony? She killed her toddler. She's definitely more hated than I am. Like, no, no, I didn't. Because as I once told my own children, as we walked by a different headline that was negative about me at a kiosk on a cover of a magazine when they said, why don't you fight back against that mom? As I told him at the time, because the people who want to believe these lies always will, and the people who don't require no correction, He's Just wrong. He's wrong in his PR strategy and he's wrong about what this whole thing did to Blake Lively. She is not in a better place now than she was prior to this.

[Mark Garagos]

No, she.

[Matt Murphy]

Everybody looked at the videos and saw for themselves, right? There's another video where she did an interview where she said, I can't feel fulfilled unless I have authorship over the project. I don't want to just be an actor who shows up and stands on a spot. It's a clip that has also made the rounds. Now. Everybody has seen it, and it makes her look absolutely terrible. So maybe these are bad moments, but these are all things that she went out and did in the said herself. Another thing, Megan and I think this will. This is something Mark and I were talking about the other day. And I don't know, it's an allegation that's out there, but to get text messages between Jason Baldoni and his publicist, there's an allegation that they set up a sham lawsuit, they being Blake Lively's team, where they sued this publicist to get the phone to release these text messages to the LA Times. I don't know if it's true, but if it is, that is some really shady stuff that I think the New York State Bar should look into. If it's true. And so to do all that and come out and talk about spin machines, you know, that's pretty rich.

[Mark Garagos]

Look, you also.

[Megyn Kelly]

Because the thing is, Mark, at no point was have the allegations by Blake. Ben. Excuse me, they made up lies about. About me and use this PR firm to push them. It's that they just made her look bad. That they had a campaign to get her by using her actual videos and her promo interviews to promote the film and to spread them with the. The New York Post or the Daily Mail in a way that she thought was unflattering, but I did not see in her complete complaint. They made up a lie that I fired a pregnant girl. They made up a lie that I was, you know, uniformly abusive to the staff. That's. That wasn't the nature of her campaign. Campaign. It was that you intentionally spread mean things about me. They may have been mean, but they were true.

[Mark Garagos]

You want to know the cynic in me who. Who, as a practical matter, will tell you what I think is happening here? When. When Blake Lively's case was gutted by Judge Lyman, he issued an order. If you read that order, he was unflinching in his criticism of her lawyers to the point where it explains why, if what is being reported is true. As soon as they saw that order, as soon as her case was gutted, she had a monstrous legal malpractice action against her lawyers. How do her lawyers solve that problem? They immediately beg Baldoni's team to go into private mediation. You might say, well, how is that going to solve anything? There's a Supreme Court case in California that says, and mind you, they mediated this in California with a California based, California, Hawaii based mediator is my understanding. The California Supreme Court case says if you go through private mediation, you can't sue your lawyer for legal malpractice. So what this was, was a very sophisticated legal strategy to insulate the big firm from getting sued for the tens of millions of dollars for what could have been argued was the. If you read Judge Lyman's order, order missteps by her lawyers. That's just the cynic in me explaining why all this happened. Then what happens? Brian goes out and declares victory and these guys now have to concoct no, well, what about 47.1 in our lawyers fees, which everybody knows the insurance company is going to pick up for anyway? So talk about just being a cynic here. What has happened here is really kind of one of the downsides, if you will, to when you, when you have too much money. It's a kind of a take on the Richard, old Richard Pryor joke that having a big firm represent you in a civil case is God's way of telling you you make too much money.

[Megyn Kelly]

So because one of the things, I mean the main thrust of her case was the sexual harassment claim. And, and it was based on a contract between the parties that never existed. That's what came out in the course of discovery. She never had a signature by the Wayfarer defendants. That's Justin's production company. And they tried to scramble on Team Blake's like attorneys to say, well, there was this one that they signed and so it was this version, but the court was like many other versions came after that. They, they may have signed this one, but there wasn't a meeting of the minds yet. There were like nine versions of this contract. And you're asking me to enforce it. Which version do I enforce? Do I enforce the ninth version that they left after that? They kind of whatever, everybody moved on after that. Or is it the one version that might have had a signature but it wasn't countersigned? Like, I, I'm not, I, I can't divine fine agreement. It has to be shown to me on a piece of paper with Two signatures which any first year law student knows. So how did we get to the point in this case where these, you know, storied lawyers didn't understand that their main claim is not supported by any document? That's a very interesting theory. All right, so now. So she will get her attorney's fees. What do you make of the fact though that the judge is. They wanted to brief it again. They went back in, Matt, and said give us another chance. They already briefed it. They briefed it, they submitted it. They say, oh, she's got some 400. 400 million in damages, whatever. They briefed attorneys fees and she wants them trebled meaning tripled which is potentially a possibility under the anti slap statute that they're su. They're getting the fees under. And the judge just came out, we just saw the order because originally he hadn't actually issued the order. Now we've got it saying the court does not require additional briefing at this time. So order. Lewis J. Lyman May 11, 2026 so he's not into it. He doesn't want to hear anything more from them. He's probably got his mind made up. Do you think he's going to give them some huge award with and then triple it?

[Matt Murphy]

No. In a word, no. I don't see that happening at all. I think Mark's exactly right. The apple didn't fall far from the tree and his dad was a First Amendment pillar. And this judge is over it. Meghan. He's figured this out. I think he's sorted out the egos. He's read everything. He knows what this is. And another thing that Mark and I were talking about the other day is when you get into these cases with celebrities and again, Mark has dealt with this way more than I have, but I've had a few. It is amazing to me how we get this image of how glamorous they are and all the money and all the power and, and the red carpets. And then you get into, you look beyond the curtain and you see text messages and you see a lot of petty really small human beings like they are. The reality oftentimes is almost so disappointing because they're not as smart as the characters they play and they get in these petty ego fueled feuds and when you've got all the money in the world world behind you, you wind up in situations like this. I think somebody finally pulled her aside and said, you are, you have lost this battle. You're, you're destroying your career. Read the comments section of some of these things. You look Terrible. And it's so bad you're dragging your husband into it. That's my guess. And that, that, yeah, I'm sure the word ecstatic because of her attorney's fees is so laughably just ridiculous. But, but look, this is, this is one of those. I approach every everything Megan, in my experience, from a position of victims and I've represented women since I've been in private practice who were legitimate, real victims of sexual harassment from people that were in positions of power. I know you've had that experience. Like that's a real thing. And it's kind of like Amber Heard and the Johnny Depp stuff when you, it's like we should believe victims until we shouldn't. And when it comes to this sort of thing, when you march out there and say, I'm going to do this on behalf of all people, people who have been subjected to sexual harassment, you undermine them, you undermine the real victims when in my opinion, you do stuff like this. And Mark had a great point the other day. Blake Lively, when the judge gutted the cases because she was an independent contractor and not an employee, that was the technical reason. She could have taken an off ramp right then and there and said, I'm going to now rally so that independent contractors also have protections under the law for sexual harassment. And she didn't do that. And she could have done that. And Mark said is a great point, if they'd enacted a federal law, they would have called it the Blake Lively Act. And she could have then she could have been a hero.

[Narrator/Documentary Clips]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

She didn't take it. She didn't do it because in my opinion, she was driven by ego and trying to settle a score. And that's what this whole thing is about.

[Megyn Kelly]

And like Brian has been saying all along, Mark Aros, he knew she. It's one thing to say in a complaint to the California Human Rights office, one thing. But when you're on the stand under oath being cross examined by Brian, it's quite another to try to back up those claims about they walked in on me in my dressing room when I was breastfeeding my baby against my will and then confronted with a text message saying, come on in, come on in, I'm breastfeeding my baby, but it's fine. I like, by the way, I don't to get ripped apart.

[Mark Garagos]

I don't know if I and I, I'm sure you've told it before, but I will tell it again for you. Brian became your lawyer because he started off as opposing counsel against you. And I That's some of the. The best kind of lawyering you can do is when your opponent says, no, no, no. I'm hiring this guy so I never have to deal with him again.

[Megyn Kelly]

And Garrett goes. I started off like, I can't stand this prick. He is such an asshole. I cannot stand him. I hated him when he was taking. Wait, no. When we were taking the deposition of his client, he was, like, interfering in a way. You know, you don't like seeking objections at a deposition, right? I was like, oh, I can't stand him. And I like the way he talked to my lawyer. And so finally we get to the point where he's deposing me. And I was like, I was ready. Of course. I'd been a litigator for 10 years at Jones Day. This is not my first rodeo. I was totally ready for him, and I fell in love with him. He's so charming. He's so smart. He's raising good points. We're having a great back and forth. I had no stakes. Like, I, I. Whatever. It was very clear where this, you know, Brian inherited it. He didn't actually take this case. It was kind of given to him. But we bonded over these eight hours in a way where I was like, I think I made a friend for life. That case went away way. And then when I got in trouble with NBC. It's a long story that I will tell someday in full, but an agent connected me with Brian, and the agent fled. But Brian stayed with me. And he was like, just so you know, I don't give an F. Only he said the word. What anybody thinks of me, I've got you. And it was like, that was it. We were off to the races, and he hammered them. He got me, everything I did deserved. And that was really the beginning, like, another beginning for Brian, who was already very, very well respected, but of this, like, niche practice he's really created where, like, any big talent in a serious fight with somebody who's generally a bully on the other side calls Brian, you know, like, Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon hired him from cnn. Gabrielle, yeah. Union hired him when NBC started messing with her. Justin Baldoni, there's been a long list now, but, like, he's the go to if you want to. If. If you're an individual getting bullied by some massive entity on the other side. And that's really what Blake Lively has been, you know, dragons with Ryan and Taylor and, And Justin had no power in comparison to them. You go to Brian, and he. He is a master of the dark arts in a great way. Garriga.

[Mark Garagos]

And by the way, that's also one of the reasons I love Matt Murphy and I love Brian both. Because when you're opposing somebody who's truly talented, like Matt was as a prosecutor, Brian was because we first were at odds with one another. Those are the, that's the long, long lost friendships. I mean, with Matt, I often say one of the clients, I'll never forget with him. And he, and what endeared me to him is I at one point got so frustrated at him for wanting state prison on my client that I lashed out and said, you would prosecute Romeo for stalking Juliet if you had your way. And that he laughed and finally gave me what I wanted because he could see how frustrated I was laughing now. I had the same experience with Brian. I was just the, he was bedeviling me on something. And finally, finally we resigned, resolved it. And they're two of my closest friends in the world.

[Matt Murphy]

It's funny, isn't it? It's like those fights on the playground when you're in fourth grade. Two boys fighting on the playground. They're going to be best friends by the end of the day. And that's, it really is a function of that. And I was thinking the exact same thing, Mark. I wasn't going to say it, but yeah, you really do. You get to learn in an adversarial process, especially when you're in a good, hard fight. You get to learn, learn your opponent in a lot of ways better than their own colleagues do because you see them under pressure. You're creating the pressure. You see how they respond. And you really can develop a true, healthy respect for somebody like that. And that's why, you know, number one, Megan, that's why you brought in Brian Friedman. And number two, why I would hire Mark Caricos if I was in trouble tomorrow in an instant to defend me.

[Megyn Kelly]

Because total, totally, yeah, same. And now they work together, so it would be super easy or you, I, I, I don't know. I feel like this is, I believe you when you say this is how boys, like resolve things on the playground. Girls, instead of doing that, will just say nothing and then stick needles in your back, knives in your back for years quietly. And your life will slowly be destroyed. You won't know why. So it's like, so it's a different kind of playground. I'd put the girl's revenge up against the boy boys.

[Mark Garagos]

And I'd much rather just have a

[Megyn Kelly]

playground fight where we punch in the

[Mark Garagos]

face, having Raised a ball busting lawyer myself. I have. I was shocked in when she was in fourth grade at what those girls did to one another. It was, it was, it was like nothing I'd ever experienced up until then.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, it's, it's like a rite of passage, sadly for a lot of women. But boy, oh boy, you get tougher, that's for damn sure. All right, before we go, I want to put a period at the end of the, the MJ discussion because the real question is what, what now is going to be his, his legacy? Because this is a fight for legacy and for money. In the New York Times, the daily podcast, Mark, they pointed out that there was testimony that on the day Michael died, he had his, his brand was worth like $24. He had not a lot of money left in the car offers. The estate was very worried that it wasn't going to be able to generate any dough because it was so smeared, you know, with these allegations. But now we've had the MJ musical which has defied expectations and become a smash hit for five years with nearly sold out venues. We've had the Cirque du Soleil. Now we have this movie with hundreds of millions already and on track to potentially make a billion dollars. And the filmmakers, which is really the estate saying we have another one that we can release quickly in the hopper which may or may not cover all the stuff we've been discussing. You know, there are some legal impediments to them doing it given like deals that have been signed, but it's, it's a fight for them to continue earning and to restore his legacy. The family says they don't believe any of these allegations and they, they want the legacy restored. Can that be done and will the police public allow it?

[Mark Garagos]

Well, if you want my, my non legal answer, my non legal answer is based on my experience, yes, the public will allow it. And the fact that it is exceeded everybody's expectations in terms of the box office on this thing tells you all you need to know. No, I mean even though there will be other, as I mentioned before, there will be other documentation, there will be other productions out because money spawns money and that is going to triumph in the end, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on who's looking at it.

[Megyn Kelly]

What do you think, Matt?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I think Mark's right. And remember these songs are so iconic that when you hear one it brings us back to a point in our life like hey, that was from 10th grade. Or we, we remember these parties and they're so personal to Everybody because he was so huge. I mean, he's the largest pop star in the world. And look, I've dedicated my life to fighting my professional life anyway, to fighting child molesters basically, and those who would sexually prey on others. And I think that in the world of cancellation, he's dead. So I think that, I don't know, and this might be controversial, it's just me, but I think we all need to allow ourselves to enjoy the music. Other people are making that money now. And it's also a fascinating iconic fall from grace and people can't stay away from that. So I think both aspects of that story are going to go. I think it's going to continue to make money and people are still going to talk about the implications of sexual assault and taking advantage of little kids. And whether it's true or not true, I think it's going to continue be a part of our cultural landscape for a long time.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I mean, dying is the ultimate cancellation. He certainly was canceled. I feel like one aspect of it that wasn't discussed that really is a critical piece of the story is the parents who allowed their seven year old children to spend the night at a grownup's house, who, who you know wasn't a parent, and in his bed. Like they knew, they knew that this was happening and they allowed it. And the children who are now grown say it's tough, especially when you don't have a lot of money as a kid and the world's greatest pop star pays attention to you and wants to be your friend and had a decent narrative of I'm just a big kid myself. It's not that I'm a male Lester, it's that I'm just a bit. I never got to grow up. And, and it was very persuasive because he did have a very abusive father. He had a childhood where he worked all the time. He was obviously stunted in some ways. He was childlike even as a grownup. So it's kind of like, okay, I can see it, you know, Neverland looks like an amusement park. His room looks like a Peter Pan book. He is kind of a big, you know, you could go with it if you wanted to delude yourself into thinking there's no risk of here. Most normal people never would. But I'm just saying this is what the parents convince themselves of and this is just not a good idea. Nope. No normal man wants a child in his bed. They just don't. That's one thing. If you have a kid and he's sick and he comes in the middle of the night. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about strange man who's not related to your child who wants him to sleep in his bed. It's a hard no. So maybe that is potentially helpful to anybody out there listening. Guys, looking forward to many more episodes of in the well, everybody go and subscribe@mk truecrime.com thanks for being here.

[Matt Murphy]

Thank you, Megan.

[Mark Garagos]

Thanks, Megan. Bye, Matt.

[Megyn Kelly]

All right, and we'll see all of you tomorrow with Mark Halperin and our deep dive on Katie Porter and how she she has been victimized, my friend.

[Michael Jackson (voice clips)]

She.

[Megyn Kelly]

She's the victim. That's what you do. Need to know and more on that tomorrow. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No bs, no agenda, and no fear.

[Mark Garagos]

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