SCOTUS Hears "Affirm Only" Therapy Arguments, AG Bondi Clashes with Dems over DOJ: AM Update 10/8

Summary

The Megyn Kelly Show – AM Update 10/8/2025

Episode: SCOTUS Hears "Affirm Only" Therapy Arguments, AG Bondi Clashes with Dems over DOJ
Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Megyn Kelly (SiriusXM)

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers an in-depth update on two major stories:

1. Supreme Court Arguments: The U.S. Supreme Court hears a challenge to Colorado's 2019 “conversion therapy” ban for minors, focusing on whether the law violates therapists' free speech rights by only permitting gender-affirming counseling while criminalizing alternative viewpoints.
2. Capitol Hill Showdown: Attorney General Pam Bondi testifies before the Senate Judiciary Committee, sparring with Democrats about law enforcement strategies, National Guard deployments in high-crime cities, the indictment of James Comey, and allegations of the DOJ targeting GOP lawmakers.

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Supreme Court Hears Colorado’s “Affirm-Only” Therapy Ban

Background and Key Legal Questions

• In 2019, Colorado banned licensed therapists from “conversion therapy” for minors, defined broadly to include any counseling aiming to reduce same-sex attraction or to help a child accept their biological sex ([03:40]).
• The law permits “affirming” a child’s declared gender identity but prevents counseling aiming to align identity with biological sex.
• Colorado therapist Kaylee Chiles, represented by Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), argues this is a viewpoint-based restriction and a First Amendment violation.

Core Discussion Points

Scope and Meaning of Conversion Therapy Ban

• Kristen Wagoner (ADF, President & CEO):

  • “Colorado's description of conversion therapy is very misleading and I think intentionally so. It includes just simple conversations that we know the science says people benefit from. Kids need to be heard ... that is actually labeled as conversion therapy in this law.” ([04:01])
  • “You can't lump things in that are different... Kaylee's counseling is simply listening and talking, as are a number of therapists out there trying to help these kids...” ([04:01])

• Megyn Kelly:

  • Points out the law is, “totally permissive under the law” for gender affirmation, but bans therapy helping children be “comfortable with their natural body.” ([04:48])

Allegations of Viewpoint Discrimination

• Kristen Wagoner:
  • “Colorado says it has the power to censor those conversations and say, you can't even talk about that unless you help them transition to the opposite sex. It's blatant viewpoint discrimination and violates the First Amendment.” ([04:59])

Risks to Children and Scientific Claims

• Kristen Wagoner:

  • “It is a one-way ratchet that is designed to push kids down a radical path... 90% of kids who are allowed to just go through puberty ... naturally grow comfortable with their bodies.”
  • “If... they are socially transitioned, 97% ... will become lifelong medical patients...” ([05:40])

• Megyn Kelly:

  • Cites international examples (UK, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark) sharply curtailing gender-affirming treatments in minors, referencing the Cass Review from the UK, which criticized fast-tracking interventions without psychological assessment ([07:59]).

Supreme Court Oral Arguments – Highlights

• Justice Elena Kagan:

  • Highlights possible viewpoint discrimination: “[I]f one therapist is allowed to help a patient accept being gay, but another is barred from helping a patient change, that sure sounds like viewpoint discrimination.” ([06:27])

• Colorado Solicitor General’s Argument:

  • Asserts speech in medical contexts can be more regulated than ordinary speech ([06:27]).

• Justice Samuel Alito:

  • Challenges reliance on current “medical consensus,” noting historical examples of politicized medical dogma (e.g., eugenics, Down syndrome) ([07:06]–[07:56]).

• American College of Pediatricians Representative:

  • “We are calling on these medical organizations of the United States ... to follow the science and their European colleagues and immediately stop the promotion of social affirmation, puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and surgeries for children and adolescents...” ([09:07])
  • “Their protocols are [not] consensus. We are speaking in a loud, unified voice.” ([09:52])

Predictions and Potential Impact

• Kristen Wagoner (ADF):
  • “I'm very optimistic about how the court will rule... it's likely going to be a vote that crosses potential ideological sides... The government has no business peering into the counseling room and censoring conversations.” ([10:01])
  • Expects the decision could come earlier if there’s broad agreement ([10:41]).
  • Notes that 20 states have similar laws; the decision could have nationwide implications ([10:54]).

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AG Pam Bondi Clashes with Senate Democrats Over DOJ Conduct

Law and Order Initiatives

• Pam Bondi:
  • Touts DOJ and FBI partnerships in Washington, D.C., and Memphis:
    • “More than 3,800 arrests here in Washington ... 365 illegal guns [seized]. In Memphis ... more than 300 arrests ... 80 illegal guns in just a week.”
    • Credits FBI’s “Summer Heat” operation: “over 8,600 arrests from June to September” ([12:46]).

National Guard Deployments and Federal Overreach

• Megyn Kelly:

  • Highlights deployment of National Guard to support law enforcement, sometimes at Trump’s direction without local invitation (e.g., Portland, Chicago) ([13:49]).

• Pam Bondi (in exchange with Sen. Dick Durbin):

  • Declines to reveal White House consultation: “I am not going to discuss any internal conversations...” ([14:45])
  • Criticizes Democratic opposition:
    • “I wish you loved Chicago as much as you hate President Trump. And currently the National Guard are on the way to Chicago... Your city has a murder rate five times higher than New York’s...” ([14:59])

The Comey Indictment Debate

• Pam Bondi:

  • Declines to discuss whether White House directed Comey’s prosecution:
    • “I know you have said that you will not discuss discussions you’ve had with the president about Comey, is that correct... I’m not going to discuss any conversations.”
    • “James Comey is a pending case ... indicted by one of the most liberal grand juries in the country...” ([16:28]–[17:00])

• Megyn Kelly:

  • Points out perceived double standards in Democrats' concern over political retribution ([17:12]).
  • Notes Biden’s push for Trump’s indictment was publicly reported ([17:12]).
  • Comey’s arraignment set for later that day ([17:12]).

Accusations of DOJ Targeting GOP Senators

• Megyn Kelly:

  • Reports Jack Smith (Special Counsel) obtained GOP lawmakers' phone records as part of the Jan. 6 investigation: “...eight GOP senators and one House member...” ([17:12])

• Pam Bondi (responding to Sen. Blackburn):

  • “We don’t know what all they got. We don’t know who all they tracked. But to tap our phones ... and for them to use it in their investigations, how disgusting.” ([18:34])
  • “The weaponization against you and your colleagues should greatly concern all of us... There was a two-tier system of justice under the Biden administration... No one is above the law. And there is a one-tier system of justice in this Justice Department.” ([19:03])

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Noteworthy Quotes and Moments

• Kristen Wagoner:

  • “It is a one-way ratchet... 90% of kids... naturally grow comfortable with their bodies, [but] socially transitioned, 97% will become lifelong medical patients...” ([05:40])
  • “The government has no business peering into the counseling room and censoring conversations.” ([10:01])

• Justice Elena Kagan (summarized by Kelly):

  • “[It] sure sounds like viewpoint discrimination.” ([06:27])

• Justice Samuel Alito:

  • Questions on politicized medical consensus:
    • “Was there a time when many medical professionals thought that certain people should not be permitted to procreate because they had low IQs?” ([07:30])

• Pam Bondi:

  • “I wish you loved Chicago as much as you hate President Trump.” ([14:59])
  • “[T]here is a one-tier system of justice in this Justice Department.” ([19:03])

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |--------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:40 | Background on the Colorado therapy law and SCOTUS case | | 04:01 | Kristen Wagoner (ADF) on law's misleading definition | | 05:40 | Wagoner on psychological risks for minors | | 06:27 | Justice Kagan and Gorsuch: viewpoint discrimination | | 07:06-07:56 | Justice Alito: politicized medical consensus | | 09:07 | American College of Pediatricians: call to follow EU science| | 10:01 | Wagoner expresses optimism on SCOTUS outcome | | 10:54 | Nationwide potential impact of the Court's decision | | 12:46 | Pam Bondi on DOJ/FBI operations in high-crime cities | | 14:38 | Bondi/Durbin exchange on National Guard, Chicago crime | | 16:28-17:00 | Bondi grilled on Comey prosecution, denies WH interference | | 18:00-19:03 | DOJ phone records sweep; Bondi on “weaponization” |

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Conclusion

This episode provides a detailed, opinionated look at legal and political flashpoints dividing America: the limits of free speech in therapy for minors, and intense partisanship around law enforcement and DOJ conduct. With direct courtroom and Capitol Hill accounts and a sharp critique of both “medical consensus” and Biden-era justice, Megyn Kelly gives listeners an informed, provocative recap of breaking national controversies.

Transcript

[Andy Cohen]

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[Pam Bondi]

Patternay.

[Andy Cohen]

Bring it on.

[Megyn Kelly]

Good morning everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. It's Wednesday, October 8, 2025 and this is your AM update.

[Kristen Wagoner]

It is a one way ratchet that is designed to push kids down a radical path. Lots of kids are being harmed because they can't get the help they need.

[Megyn Kelly]

The Supreme Court taking up a challenge to Colorado's so called conversion therapy law. We talked to one of the lawyers at the center of the case.

[Pam Bondi]

I wish you love Chicago as much as you hate President Trump. And currently the National Guard are on the way to Chicago.

[Megyn Kelly]

And Attorney General Pam Bondi battling with Senate Democrats on law and order as Republican senators sound off on bombshell, reporting that the Biden FBI secretly obtained their phone records in connection with its January 6 investigation. All that and more coming up in just a moment. On your AM Update. Cozy Earth's pajamas and blankets are soft, breathable and so cute. You're going to start planning your evenings around them. Let's talk about the bamboo stretch knit pajamas. The fabric is insanely soft. It's stretchy, it's lightweight. You can wear it way past bedtime. It could be your all day cozy uniform and it has been in my case. Then there's the bubble cuddle blanket. This thing transform your couch or your bed? Abby and I were fighting over ours. The plush textured faux fur is not just stunning, it is nap inducing, binge sessions, book reading, chilly nights. It elevates the whole thing. And here's the best part. Cozy Earth backs everything with a 100 night sleep trial. Meaning if you don't like it after 100 nights, you can send it back for a full refund and a 10 year warranty on blankets. Lifetime guarantee on apparel. Go to cozyearth.com use the code Megan at checkout for up to 40% off your new favorite pajama set and blanket. That's cozyearth.com code Megan. And if you get a post purchase survey, please be sure to let them know that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Elevate your downtime with Cozy Earth. The Supreme Court yesterday hearing arguments testing the limits of a therapist's free speech in a challenge to Colorado's ban on so called conversion therapy treatment in 2019, Colorado enacting the Minor conversion therapy law prohibiting mental health professionals from engaging in conversion therapy with patients under the age of 18. The law, which targets therapists, defines that as an effort to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity, including efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attraction or feelings toward individuals of the same sex. Colorado therapist Kaylee Chiles argues the ban amounts to a, quote, viewpoint based speech restriction on counselors in violation of the First Amendment. If she were to counsel a patient suffering from gender dysphoria who wanted affirmation of their transgender identity, that's totally permissible under the law. If Chiles were to counsel a gender dysphoric patient who sought to grow comfortable with his or her natural body, it would be illegal. The Alliance Defending Freedom represents Chiles in this case. We spoke with president and CEO Kristen Wagoner, who says Colorado's definition of conversion therapy is far broader and more misleading than what the public has been led to believe.

[Kristen Wagoner]

Colorado's description of conversion therapy is very misleading and I think intentionally so. It actually in the statute itself defines conversion therapy as including any practice that you engage in that helps a client lessen their behaviors or change their behaviors, their affections, their attractions. And so it includes just simple conversations that we know the science says people benefit from. Kids need to be heard and be able to talk through things. And that is actually labeled as conversion therapy in this law. And you can't lump things in that are different. And again, Kaylee's counseling is simply listening and talking, as are, you know, a number of therapists that are out there trying to help these kids navigate this issue.

[Megyn Kelly]

Colorado has no problem with therapists who affirm a child's preferred gender identity, but bans counseling that encourages the acceptance of biological reality.

[Kristen Wagoner]

Colorado is saying, look, if you have a client that comes to you, a minor in this case who's voluntarily wanting to be listen to and to talk to, and they say, I'm uncomfortable with my body, can you help me align my identity with my biological sex? Colorado says it has the power to censor those conversations and say, you can't even talk about that unless you help them transition to the opposite sex. It's blatant viewpoint discrimination and violates the First Amendment.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wagoner says the one sided restriction not only fails to protect children, it also can force them down an irreversible path that they would likely have grown out of over time.

[Kristen Wagoner]

It is a one way ratchet that is designed to push kids down a radical path. And what the science tells us and even what has uncontested in this case is that 90% of kids who are allowed to just go through puberty who are experiencing gender dysphoria, but they naturally grow comfortable with their bodies, but if instead they you socially transition them, 97% of those kids will become lifelong medical patients and struggle with their biological sex for the rest of their lives. Not only does Colorado fail to prove that its law is necessary or that simply talking and listening to kids causes harm, but actually the evidence shows the opposite. Lots of kids are being harmed because they can't get the help they need.

[Megyn Kelly]

Justice Neil Gorsuch, a conservative bringing up the issue of viewpoint discrimination, as did liberal justice Elena Kagan. Justice Kagan saying in normal circumstances, if one therapist is allowed to help a patient accept being gay, but another is barred from helping a patient change, that it sure sounds like viewpoint discrimination. Colorado Solicitor General Shannon Stevenson asserting speech in a medical setting between a doctor and a patient is different from free speech and can be more freely regulated. Justice Samuel Alito questioning Stevenson on the politicization of medical consensus.

[Senator or Justice (possibly Justice Samuel Alito or a Senator questioning)]

Had there been a case, I mean, the medical consensus is usually very reasonable and it's very important, but have there been times when the medical consensus has been politicized, has been taken over by ideology?

[Megyn Kelly]

We have no facts about that in this case, but I wouldn't disagree that that's possible. And I think it's a really, isn't.

[Senator or Justice (possibly Justice Samuel Alito or a Senator questioning)]

It a fact that it's happened in the past? Was there a time when many medical professionals thought that certain people should not be permitted to procreate because they had low IQs?

[American College of Pediatricians Representative]

I don't know that, but I will accept the premise.

[Senator or Justice (possibly Justice Samuel Alito or a Senator questioning)]

When was there a time when there were many, many medical professionals who thought that every child born with down syndrome should be immediately put in an institution?

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't know that, you, Honor.

[Senator or Justice (possibly Justice Samuel Alito or a Senator questioning)]

Thank you.

[Megyn Kelly]

As usual, Justice Alito gets it. The so called medical consensus in America on treating gender confused children is affirm their delusion, no questions asked. This despite systematic reviews the gold standard showing the benefits of this approach to be weak at best and more likely at risk of causing children serious harm. The uk, Sweden, Finland, Norway and Denmark have all either banned or sharply curtailed the use of gender affirming care for minors. The UK's well respected Cass review finding that children were being fast tracked to medical interventions without sufficient psychological assessments of their mental health. You know, the kind where therapists get to ask questions about what's really behind the child's distress. Despite all that, the alleged medical consensus in America is still to affirm the delusion and provide drugs and surgeries on minors. Standing alone in its effort to push back on this is the American College of Pediatricians, which issued this warning last year.

[American College of Pediatricians Representative]

We are calling on these medical organizations of the United States, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the Pediatric Endocrine Society, the American Medical association, the American Psychological association and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, to follow the science and their European colleagues and immediately stop the promotion of social affirmation, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgeries for children and adolescents who experience distress over their biological sex. We are here to defying the claims made by these medical organizations in the US that those of us who are concerned are a minority and that their protocols are consensus. They are not consensus. And we are speaking in a loud, unified voice.

[Megyn Kelly]

Enough Attorney Kristen Wagoner, who was present for yesterday's arguments, believes the high court's decision will come down in her client's favor.

[Kristen Wagoner]

I'm very optimistic about how the court will rule in this case. I think that the court, it's it's likely going to be a vote that crosses potential ideological sides because the same standards of speech should be protected regardless of what side you're on on a particular issue. And the government has no business peering into the counseling room and censoring conversations. We would be thrilled with a ruling that says this law impinges on free speech, that it's restricting counselors and especially those who are seeking voluntarily to have these conversations as a violation of the First Amendment.

[Megyn Kelly]

While declining to predict the final vote, Wagoner believes there will be significant agreement among the justices.

[Kristen Wagoner]

Oftentimes the court's most controversial decisions do come out in June. But oftentimes when there is significant agreement among the court, the decisions will come out sooner. And I think that's actually a possibility here. We'll have to wait and see.

[Megyn Kelly]

A decision is expected sometime next year, and it won't just affect Colorado. About 20 other states have similar laws on the books, meaning the decision could have nationwide implications. Coming up, Attorney General Pam Bondi goes toe to toe with Democrat senators on Capitol Hill as Republicans demand answers over a bombshell report that the Biden FBI secretly pulled their private phone record. I've been talking a lot about Riverbend Ranch lately because I love their steaks. Riverbend Ranch has taken Black Angus beef to a whole new level. For the last 35 years, Riverbend Ranch has been creating a very elite Angus herd by using ultrasound to select genetically superior cattle with a focus on flavor and tenderness. When you purchase from Riverbend Ranch, you're not only supporting the 64 Cowboys and Cowgirls and their families who work on the ranch and you're also supporting over 260 other US ranches and the hundreds of American families who work on them. It's born in the USA, raised in the USA and processed in the USA too. This beef is aged to perfection for 21 days and then shipped directly from the ranch to your home. This is not your average Black Angus beef, so order from Riverbendranch.com use the promo code Megan to get 20 bucks off your first order and let me know what you think. Riverbendranch.com promo code Megan Attorney General Pam Bondi appearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee yesterday in a four and a half hour hearing exposing the deep partisan divide over law and order in America. AG Bondi's opening statement highlighting the DOJ's recent successful state and federal partnerships targeting high crime cities Our federal surges in.

[Pam Bondi]

Washington, D.C. and Memphis are a perfect example of how the Department of Justice should operate. We created strong partnerships with local leadership working hand in hand with both cities to send resources where they were needed most. The results speak for themselves. We have made more than 3,800 arrests here in Washington while seizing more than 365 illegal guns. In Memphis we have already made more than 300 arrests and close to 80 illegal guns in just a week. We are replicating that tough on crime approach throughout this country under the leadership of Director Cash Patel, the FBI is doing outstanding investigative work to keep American people safe. The FBI just conducted months long operation called Summer Heat which resulted in over 8,600 arrests from June to September. More than 6,500 arrests fell under the FBI's Violent Crime and Gang program in both cities.

[Megyn Kelly]

The National Guard invited to provide additional support to Federal agencies in D.C. by President Trump and in Memphis by Republican governor of Tennessee Bill Lee. Recently in Portland and Chicago, President Trump deploying the National Guard not by invitation from local authorities but under his own federal powers to protect federal agents and property amid unrest in Oregon and Illinois. Democrat leaders pushing back filing lawsuits accusing the White House of overreach, the administration countering that it is stepping in where local law enforcement efforts have failed, exposing ICE agents and DHS facilities to great peril. AG Bondi challenging Illinois Senator Dick Durbin, a Democrat, on the recent order deploying hundreds of National Guard troops to Chicago.

[Senator or Justice (possibly Justice Samuel Alito or a Senator questioning)]

Were you consulted by the White House before they deployed National Guard troops to cities in the United States.

[Pam Bondi]

I am not going to discuss any internal conversations with the White House.

[Senator or Justice (possibly Justice Samuel Alito or a Senator questioning)]

The word is, and I think it's been confirmed by the White House, they are going to transfer Texas National Guard units to the state of Illinois. What's the rationale for that?

[Pam Bondi]

Yeah, Chairman, as you shut down the government, you voted to shut down the government, and you're sitting here. Our law enforcement officers aren't being paid. They're out there working to protect you. I wish you loved Chicago as much as you hate President Trump. And currently the National Guard are on the way to Chicago. If you're not going to protect your citizens, President Trump will. Your city has a murder rate five times higher than New York's 571 homicides last year. We're there to help make America safe and Illinois safe, whether or not you want to.

[Megyn Kelly]

Former FBI Director James Comey, also a focus of Democrats throughout this hearing last month. Comey indicted by the DOJ on two counts, lying to Congress and obstruction relating to 2020 congressional testimony about authorizing leaks. Democrats reacting to the charges accusing President Trump of carrying out unprecedented retribution against political enemies. Some have questioned retribution for what exactly? What was it the feds did to Trump, again, that would have inspired his unprecedented move to indict his political enemies? Hmm. Democrats questioning AG Bondi, probing whether the prosecution of James Comey came at the direction of the White House here. Senators Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Chris Coons of Delaware.

[Pam Bondi]

I know you have said that you will not discuss discussions you've had with the president about Comey, is that correct, that you won't testify here about that? Because I was going to ask you if you received advice, instruction, or requests from anyone at the White House to direct the department to engage in any investigations, prosecutorial actions, including decisions not to investigate or prosecute anyone. I'm not going to discuss any conversations. The recent episode around the indictment of James Comey left me very concerned about.

[Megyn Kelly]

The direction of the department.

[Pam Bondi]

James Comey is a pending case right now. It's a pending indictment. He was indicted by one of the most liberal grand juries in the country. And it's a pending case, so I'm not going to discuss the facts of a pending case.

[Megyn Kelly]

I don't remember these two questioning Biden, AG Merrick Garland about whether he spoke to Joe Biden about indicting Donald Trump. Maybe Garland didn't have to after all. Biden's push for him to do it was published in the New York Times. In April 2022. James Comey set to be arraigned later today in Alexandria, Virginia. Several Republicans yesterday zeroing in on a new report from just the News, revealing special counsel Jack Smith obtained the private phone records of eight count em, eight GOP senators and one House member in connection with his January 6th investigation. Senators Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Josh Hawley of Missouri and Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee all targeted questioning. AG Bondi, can you tell me why.

[Pam Bondi]

My phone records when I'm the chairman of the Judiciary Committee were sought by the Jack Smith agents? Why did they ask to know who I called and what I was doing from January 4th to the 7th? Can you tell me that? No, Senator. And there were eight senators in total.

[Andy Cohen]

Let's look at it. We've got a list. Tap my phone. Tap Lindsey Graham's phone tapped. Marsha Blackburn's phone tapped. Five other phones of United States Senators. Gee, it sure looks like targeting political opponents to me.

[Pam Bondi]

We don't know what all they got. We don't know who all they tracked. But to tap our phones to pull that data for these wireless companies to have allowed them to have that and for them to use it in their investigations, how disgusting.

[Megyn Kelly]

Ms. Bondi would not confirm or deny whether there is an active investigation into that discovery. But calling the matter one of great.

[Pam Bondi]

Concern, Senator Blackburn, the weaponization against you and your colleagues should greatly concern all of us. It should concern Democrats, it should concern Republicans. Yet we don't see that there was a two tier system of justice under the Biden administration. We're learning that every day. We saw Jack Smith weaponize the Justice Department against Donald Trump. We saw the Biden administration weaponize the entire Justice Department, all of the law enforcement agencies against Donald Trump, against his family members, against his friends, friends for years and years. And that weaponization is over. No one is above the law. And there is a one tier system of justice in this Justice Department.

[Megyn Kelly]

And that'll do it for your AM Update. I'm Megyn Kelly. Join me back here for the Megyn Kelly show live on SiriusXM Triumph Channel 111 at noon east on YouTube.com Megyn Kelly and on all podcast platforms, platforms.

[Andy Cohen]

Hey everyone, it's me, Andy Cohen. Buckle up because I have a podcast called Daddy Diaries where I take my listeners on an as it happened, recount of life as a daddy to two kids, dozens of housewives and the occasional fella. Listen to the Daddy Diaries to hear about my high highs and low lows of parenting, housewives, drama and so much more. Daddy Diaries available wherever you listen to podcasts.