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The Megyn Kelly Show
Serial Killer Israel Keyes, Scott Peterson, Sammy the Bull - Megyn's "True Crime" Mega-Episode
04:19:56
Megyn Kelly brings the latest "true crime" mega-episode featuring a deep dive on serial killer Israel Keyes, Mark Geragos talking about his former clients Scott Peterson and Michael Jackson, the life story of "Sammy the Bull."
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- [00:00]
Narrator/Announcer
Sirius XM is home to the best in podcasts, including Jeff Lewis and all his moods.
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Dan Cummins
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as an asshole.
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Mark Geragos
I just want people to do their jobs.
- [00:09]
Dan Cummins
Listen to my podcast. Jeff Lewis has Issues to find out exactly what's going wrong in my life.
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Mark Geragos
Spoiler.
- [00:14]
Dan Cummins
There's a lot.
- [00:15]
Narrator/Announcer
I don't need therapy.
- [00:16]
Dan Cummins
I don't need a prayer service. I need the fucking facts.
- [00:19]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, I'm a pain in the ass,
- [00:20]
Mark Geragos
which is why I tip really fucking well.
- [00:22]
Dan Cummins
Pour a drink and listen up.
- [00:23]
Mark Geragos
It's me, Jeff Lewis.
- [00:25]
Dan Cummins
I have issues.
- [00:25]
Narrator/Announcer
Listen to Jeff Lewis has Issues.
- [00:27]
Megyn Kelly
Wherever you get your podcasts, I am
- [00:29]
Dan Cummins
not going to apologize.
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Narrator/Announcer
Out on the road, it's nice to have a partner who can help you make the most of your journey. A partner like the Love's Rewards app. With Love's Rewards along for the ride, you earn points on food, fuel, drinks
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Mark Geragos
and more every time you scan.
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Maureen Callahan
Then you can spend those points at
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Narrator/Announcer
Love's just like cash.
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Maureen Callahan
So every stop is even more rewarding.
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Narrator/Announcer
Download the app today and watch the points roll in mile after mile. Love's Rewards save and earn at every turn. Terms apply.
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Maureen Callahan
See website for details.
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Megyn Kelly
Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show and today's true crime mega episode. We're going back to the very first time Mark Garagos was on this show. Now he's one of our hosts on the MK True crime show in the. Well, but a couple of years ago, we dug into some of his biggest cases, like Scott Peterson and Michael Jackson. He's done everything. Then there is another MK Media star. Her name is Maureen Callahan. She swung by the set to discuss the serial killer Israel Keys. She actually wrote a whole book about this guy. Fascinating. And finally, we are closing things out with our feature interview of Sammy the Bull. This is the guy, right? Who, like the crime family guy, the hitman. There was a question in this interview that was like, after your 19th murder. I mean, that's something I've never asked anybody before or since. This guy was fascinating and has an incredible life story about, like the time he moved to the suburbs. Like the really nice suburbs, the more affluent suburbs. And what happened when his children tried to make friends. I have never forgotten this exchange. Out of all the interviews I've done, his stands out. I hope you enjoy. We'll see you Monday. My guest today for the full show is someone I have long admired Mark Garagos. He's one of the most fascinating, accomplished, legit lawyers, trial lawyers in the country. He has defended some of the biggest names in the most famous and infamous cases over the past few decades, including several cases, several making big headlines right now. And even today, here are just a few of his most famous clients. Michael Jackson, actress Winona Ryder, actor Jussie Smollett. Oh, yes, Colin Kaepernick and Scott Peterson. Do you know that there's news in the Scott Peterson case? This is one of the first cases I covered when I was at Fox News. I was a young cub reporter. I didn't know what I was doing. I was much closer to being a lawyer than I was to being a journalist at that point in time. And so I love this case because it had all the elements and the whole country was riveted by it. Scott Peterson was convicted of killing his wife and their unborn child back in 2004. Well, he was in court yesterday being re sentenced. He was given a death sentence at the time. Well, he received a new sentence for those 2004 murders. But Peterson might be getting a new trial as well. So it's not just that his sentence has been effectively reduced. He may be getting a new trial. So we're gonna get into why that is. And Mark Garagos believes to this day that Scott Peterson is innoc to get into Jussie Smollett. Talk about that. And new testimonies underway right now in the trial of Minnesota police officer Kim Potter, who's on trial for having shot Dante Wright with a gun which she believed was a Taser. So, lots to discuss. Mark Garagos is trial lawyer and managing partner of Garagos and Garagos and co host of the podcast Reasonable Doubt with Adam Carolla. Thank you so much for being here. Mark. How are you?
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Mark Geragos
Thank you. I'm wonderful. It's, it's, I guess, kind of come full circle. I remember you covering the Peterson case and thought you had a bright future. And see, I could prognosticate things then and now.
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Megyn Kelly
So, oh, my God, I would, I would have been so honored if I had known that at the time. I just watched you and you're such a skilled trial attorney, such confidence, and you're at the peak of all these massive cases, a lot of pressure. So that does mean a lot to me. Thank you for saying that.
- [04:46]
Mark Geragos
It was quite a. It was quite a different time. I'm the. You were just starting out. Kimberly Gufoyle was just starting out, then married to the. The mayor and Nancy Grace had just kind of blown up, so to speak. And Court TV was really in its heyday at that point.
- [05:05]
Megyn Kelly
It's true.
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Mark Geragos
I'll tell you though, that the. I was thinking about a lot of those things yesterday because as you just mentioned, Scott was just re sentenced. And by the way, I think that's a little bit of kabuki theater because the same judge who has this and you had mentioned that the California Supreme Court had reversed the death penalty unanimously, by the way, because we had complained in real time the judge was using the absolute wrong standard for excusing jurors. If somebody didn't have a kind of a preference for the death penalty or not, he was just excusing anybody who was against the death penalty, which is not the standard. I was bitterly complaining at the time.
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Megyn Kelly
Yeah, he should have followed up and said, but can you still be fair? Could you still impose if the facts justified?
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Mark Geragos
Which, by the way, was the law. And it was CLEAR it was U.S. supreme Court precedent. And the California Supreme Court, not only the poor Judge Deluci is now dead, but not only reversed it, but kind of excoriated the prosecution. Why did you allow this to happen? You know, this was basically a year long proceeding and what a waste of time. My position has been. Well, if you get kind of pro death penalty jurors, you're getting pro law enforcement jurors. And that should have tainted the guilt phase as well. What they did, instead of going that far, what they did is they issued right after the reversal an OSC order to show cause, saying to the trial judge, look, there's this woman who was a juror. Strawberry shortcake is the way she was dubbed by the media.
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Megyn Kelly
And just to jump in, just to hold on, Marcus, I just want to make sure that our audience is with us. We're shifting gears a little. He got a new trial instead of a death sentence because the judge shouldn't have been disqualifying jurors who had doubts about the death penalty. So that's why he got a different sentence.
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Mark Geragos
What he got was he got a
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Megyn Kelly
different sentence sentence, but he wants a new trial. He wants to a redo on the guilt or innocence phase based on something else involving jurors. Yes, but it's a different issue and it revolves around this, as you say, strawberry shortcake. Okay, great, go ahead.
- [07:20]
Mark Geragos
Exactly. And so what they've done is they had a. They issued the Supreme Court issue in order to show cause. So now there's. They're back in the trial Court, the same judge who resentenced him to life yesterday has now set a hearing for next year. And the kind of an interesting twist that hasn't been reported on. She filed a declaration denying that she had lied or denying that she hadn't been truthful. But now she's got a new lawyer, and she's invoking the Fifth Amendment. Oh, and so.
- [07:53]
Megyn Kelly
Wait, wait, wait, wait. So, again, let's set it up, because you people are not as neck deep in it as you are. So this juror, the alleged misconduct is when you guys were going through. Because you were Scott's lawyer. I mean, I guess we should remind people of that. Again, you were his trial lawyer. So when you were voiring the jurors and figuring out who you guys wanted on the jury, you and the prosecution had to agree. This woman filled out a form and did not disclose that she had been the victim of domestic abuse while pregnant. Which, of course, was the situation being alleged right here.
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Mark Geragos
Might have given. Might have given us pause, right?
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Megyn Kelly
Yes, of course. And as a defense lawyer, you can either bounce somebody for cause saying there's no way this person can be fair, or you can use your peremptory challenge is saying, I don't have to tell you why I don't want her. I just. I don't want her. You weren't given that opportunity because you didn't know. You didn't know that this woman had been abused while pregnant. She kept it a secret, orally, in writing. I guess it came up a couple times. She never disclosed the. And so I'll bounce it back to you. And what, so now she's pleading the Fifth?
- [08:55]
Mark Geragos
Yes, she filed a declaration, presumably at the behest of the prosecution, because it was a test. It was attached as an exhibit. And then she gets a new lawyer. Now she's. Now she's asking for immunity, which is shocking to me, which, if you read between the lines, the prosecutor got her to say something, presumably, that she no longer thinks is true or didn't think was true at the time. If they don't give her immunity, then, as you know, they'll strike the declaration, and Scott's got a better than even chance of getting a new trial.
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Megyn Kelly
What did she say in the declaration? Because she. She, like, as I understood it, it's his defense counsel saying, we came to understand that she had this thing and she didn't disclose it, therefore we're entitled to a new trial. Because he's entitled to, you know, a jury that doesn't have any sort of unfair Bias against him. Why was she submitting an affidavit or a declaration? The juror.
- [09:51]
Mark Geragos
Because they were trying to say, the appellate lawyers were saying for Scott, that she had not disclosed this, that she knew that it was relevant. One of the reasons that this was a hot issue. I had caught two other jurors who had lied, prospective jurors who had lied about their background in having domestic violence and caught them in real time. And they had fooled me. I mean, one. One juror had gone back. I mean, we're going back 17 years back then. They had chat rooms. And somebody had faxed me a chat room conversation that one of these prospective jurors had where she had was bragging that she fooled the dumb shit defense lawyer, me and was going to get on this jury and fry his client. And I confronted her with that. After I got that, I was a little ticked at my PI for not finding it. But that was the kind of stuff we were dealing with. With. That's where we coined the term stealth jurors. Jurors who want to get on a jury for, you know, some other agenda other than to do justice.
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Megyn Kelly
So what. So now this court is, I guess, February 20th, I think, is what they're. February 25th, the hearing on whether he should get a new trial on guilt or innocence will begin. And I wonder what you think. I know what you want, but what do you think? Think the odds are? Because I've read a lot of articles on it now, and half of them say, legal analysts say it's very, very unlikely he's going to get it. And then half of them say, legal analysts say he has a very good chance of getting it.
- [11:25]
Mark Geragos
Well, we're in the state court, so the California Supreme Court, as I indicated, had unanimously referred this back to the state trial court. It's an awful heavy lift for a trial court judge in a case like this. Remember, at the time, you probably have a pretty good memory of it. I mean, this was the most hated man in America. As soon as Amber Fry came on the scene, that was all she wrote in terms of the kind of pretrial prejudice and animosity and animus towards Scott. So I hate to be a cynic, but it is a heavy lift. However, if Strawberry Shortcake does not get it, get immunity and will not testify, that declaration of hers gets struck and they're left with no evidence to rebut, they being the prosecution, to rebut the osc. And so the. Presumably he would get a reversal. Now, if I. If you're asking Me to prognosticate. I'm always more confident that that would happen in federal court than state court. But we'll see it.
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Megyn Kelly
Let's go back through it. Because his sister, Scott's sister Janie, has been a tireless sister in law, has been a tireless advocate for him. I watched a 48 hours piece not long ago that got into it in depth with her. And she and his supporters maintain he didn't do it. It's not just like the prosecution didn't meet its burden that he is innocent of this crime. And the theory is, and just to remind the viewers what happened was it was December. It was, it was December 24th, it was Christmas Eve 2002. And I'll let you tell him. Mark, what was the. The theory of the prosecution was what happened.
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Mark Geragos
The prosecution was that he had, at least in the opening statements, they had taken the position that he killed her on the 23rd, that he transported her in the back of a boat up to the bay, that he dumped her on the 24th, and then came home and had made conflicting statements, golfing or fishing, blah, blah, blah. During the trial and by closings, we had, I thought, demonstrably proved that she was alive on the morning of the 24th. And the way we had done that is they had a forensic computer expert who was on the stand, and during cross examination, I got him to admit that it appeared that the activity on the morning of the 24th was consistent with the websites that Lacy would go to, that she had logged in and had all the signatures of Lacy. So, and we had shown in the hamper that the clothes that were there would have been the dirty clothes that she had worn. On the 23rd, the prosecutor, Rick Destaso, who's now a judge, by the way, got up in closing rebuttal and said, well, it really doesn't matter. Yeah, we may have been wrong. We don't know when she was dead, we don't know how she's dead, we don't know where. But the fact is his alibi was in the bay. That's where she was found four or so months later. So therefore, you must convict. A couple of the jurors in real time back then said, but for her being found in the bay, they never would have convicted. I always thought, and I publicly, before I took the case said, you know, there's guys in state prison on a lot less evidence that the body washes up in the same location where your alibi was. But the problem was it was a four month hiatus. Everybody in the world knew where he had been. And so that kind of takes away, if you will, the. The causal connection. And number two, that area where the bay was searched repeatedly by four or five different agencies and they found nothing until after this huge storm. And that's when they found Lacey's body and Connor's body as well.
- [15:23]
Megyn Kelly
Because Lacy was eight months pregnant with their. Their son Connor. And the theory of the prosecution was that he killed her because he was having an affair with Amber Frey and he didn't want a child and he didn't want to be with Lacy anymore. He wanted to be with Amber Frey, the very beautiful blonde who. It was the Gloria Allred moment that we see in virtually every case. And that was the bombshell because when Lacey was missing, the whole country was saying, where is she? Where is she? Is this beautiful eight month pregnant woman, adoring mother, Sharon Rocha. You used to see her everywhere. Scott Peterson's a good looking guy. It's like, oh, they seem like this all American couple. My God, it's Christmas Eve. What happened to Lacey and Connor, the unborn baby? And then things turned when Amber Fry came forward. Amber had been told by Scott, and this is one of the things that led people to hate him and believe he did it, that his wife was dead. She only met Scott Peterson on 11 20, November 20th. And he said, my wife's dead. This will be my first Christmas without her. Which, of course, you know, the prosecution was like, that's foreshadowing by him. And then Sharon turned on him. Lacey's family turned on him. And then you tell me, Mark, because I know you don't like it when your clients give interviews to the press. I've listened to you for years and I know you'll dump a client for that, but he sat down with Diane Sawyer and spewed a bunch of nonsense that we all knew wasn't true. We actually pulled a clip. Cause I wanted to ask you about how you, the lawyer, felt about this, but Here he is, 17 plus years ago, talking to Diane Sawyer on GMA.
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Maureen Callahan
Did your wife find out about it?
- [17:02]
Narrator/Announcer
I told my wife.
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Maureen Callahan
When?
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Megyn Kelly
Early December.
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Maureen Callahan
Did it cause a rupture in the marriage?
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Mark Geragos
It was not
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Narrator/Announcer
a positive, Obviously it's, you know, inappropriate, but it was not something that we weren't dealing with.
- [17:31]
Maureen Callahan
A lot of arguing.
- [17:32]
Megyn Kelly
No, no,
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Mark Geragos
no.
- [17:37]
Narrator/Announcer
I can't say that, that even, you
- [17:41]
Megyn Kelly
know, she was okay with the idea, but it wasn't anything that would break us apart part. There wasn't a lot of anger. No. The Diane Sawyer confused Face speaks for us all.
- [18:01]
Mark Geragos
I used to say during this case that the absolute worst demographic for Scott and for me was professional white women. I have never seen. I could go to the gym in the morning during this trial and there would be. Because there were no cameras in the courtroom, which, by the way, was probably my biggest mistake because things were being reported from New York and there were all these urban myths, and I could explain or disabuse somebody about any of the pieces of evidence, but ultimately they would say, what about this? What about this? And I would debunk it. Debunk it, debunk it. And then it would always default to, yeah, well, I had an ex boyfriend just like him, and I could see where he would have done this. And you can't. You know, there's a. There's a visceral quality to that where you just can't get over it. And this interview, I mean, you've captured my sentiment exactly. I tell people, funny. I suppose we may talk about Alec Baldwin. The. The idea that somehow you need to go out and do an interview and you need to curate your image, so to speak, when you're in the eye of the storm is. I can't think of worst advice concern consistently. The only guy who ever did it with any success, ultimately was Robert Blake. And other than that, I can't give you an example where it worked out well for somebody to go do an interview while they're pre charging or while the prosecutor's making decisions. It just makes no sense whatsoever.
- [19:34]
Megyn Kelly
No, I mean, he. I always say it's so obvious that he's lying. He did not tell Lacy about his affairs. And there. There was no tension because she didn't know there may have been tension for him. And then the other thing he did, you know, apart from, I believe, murdering his wife, an unborn child, but the other thing he did was he. While he was at Lacy's vigil, you know, they're having the vigils like, where is she? Where's Connor? Because their body didn't come up as. As you say, until April at the marina. He's on the phone. We now know Amber Fry. She went to the cops when she realized the guy she was dating was the guy married to this Lacy Peterson who everybody's looking for. So to her credit, she went to the cops and said, I think I'm dating this man. They had her do 29 hours worth of tapes with him. And one of them, I will never forget is she's talking to him. He's like, I'm at the Eiffel Tower, Paris. It's so beautiful. He was at the vigil for Lazy Mark. He is guilty as the day is long.
- [20:32]
Mark Geragos
Well, I. You know what I. The. The counter to that is. And what I. Look, I'm with you. The first time I heard it, I said, how are we ever going to get over this? But then in talk with him, he said, look, I understood that the minute Amber surface, that the minute she came out, all bets were off. They were going to stop looking for Lacy. I had to do something. I had to keep her on ice, hoping that we would find Lacey and then that would solve the problem. And I, I, you know, I've often said people say, well, how can you. You're drinking the Kool Aid. You're inside, you know, you're psychotic. How could you believe these. Look, I've represented over the almost 40 years, probably, I don't know, 500 homicide cases over the 40 years. Maybe. Maybe less. But I. I know when somebody's good for something. I know when they're capable of it. I figured that out. I can tell. I know when somebody's a sociopath. I know when they're. I mean, I can just read it just by going through it. This guy doesn't have the capability. I mean, that's just my spending that amount of time with him. And I'll tell you, based on the evidence. The evidence. I know that people say, well, circumstantial. He didn't act right. The tapes you mentioned always are thrown back in my face. And I said, yeah, but the problem is nobody can explain where this happened, how this happened, how this guy who gets on an interview and does not acquit himself well, was able to not leave a forensic trace anywhere anyhow of this crime. How is it the perfect crime?
- [22:11]
Megyn Kelly
And why couldn't he have, like, smothered her or strangled her, which wouldn't lead to, you know, blood evidence. Her DNA would already be all over the house. And then he. He got her body out of the house.
- [22:21]
Mark Geragos
Yeah, but there wasn't anything that was consistent with that. I mean, they went through, if you saw kinds of the. We went extensively over the forensics. They couldn't even find anything. There would be excretions. There would be evidence or telltale signs, trace evidence. That would have.
- [22:37]
Megyn Kelly
Got another one for you. I got another one for you. Why wouldn't. Why wouldn't he take a polygraph? The night cops came over the first day she was reported missing, and they said, we take a polygraph and he
- [22:47]
Mark Geragos
Refused only because it's not admissible in California.
- [22:51]
Megyn Kelly
No, but this is at the point where she's missing. He's supposed to be the grieving, terrified husband. Where is she? Oh, my God. Right? Like, if I go missing for a day and they say, doug, will you take a polygraph? Doug says, yes, of course. Whatever. Whatever you need. But he didn't.
- [23:03]
Mark Geragos
Well, it depends. I don't know if Doug was playing around on the side, but, you know, you never know.
- [23:08]
Megyn Kelly
So t did that. What do you know?
- [23:10]
Narrator/Announcer
What.
- [23:11]
Mark Geragos
No, I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to ruin a. What appears to be a very happy marriage. So you never know. But look, the. I always advise clients. If you want to take a polygraph, I'm going to do it with my guy first. I mean, polygraphs are notoriously slipshod. There's a reason. There's a code section that doesn't allow them in, and there's people who know how to pass them and people who would never pass them, even if you are telling the truth. So to me, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I still come back to her circle back. There is no evidence. There's absolutely no evidence of anything that shows where, how, or when.
- [23:52]
Megyn Kelly
Well, the evidence was all circumstantial about his affair, about him saying she was dead, about him on Christmas Eve, weirdly going fishing in his boat. He couldn't remember what bait he used when the cops asked him. He went fishing in the very same place her body and Connor's body washed up four months later. He was researching the currents. Like that was basically the case. They never were able to say how he allegedly killed her or even, as you point out, when. Exactly when.
- [24:20]
Mark Geragos
And by the way, we did a demonstration in that boat of trying to toss somebody over, he would have capsized every. Every time. The judge would not allow that demonstration to be admitted into evidence, which I thought was outrageous, because he allowed in a prosecution demonstration that did not replicate it. Also, the fishing on Christ Eve, it came out in trial. I never knew this, that Lacey's stepfather was fishing on New on Christmas Eve as well. He had never disclosed that, even though people were saying, who goes fishing on Christmas Eve? So, you know, there's a lot of things you can always weave together, things that don't look right, but at the end of the day, this is not. This is a guy who's got absolutely nothing. A complete pristine background. And if you think he just committed cold blooded murder, especially of his unborn son, which nobody will tell you that he wasn't excited about having a son. And I think that's what he wanted to say yesterday in the sentencing hearing, but the judge wouldn't let him allocate.
- [25:22]
Megyn Kelly
Right. I'll make just a couple points for you. The affect, his weird affect, he was weirdly aloof. He was smiling at the memorial, caught on camera with big smiles. And people were like, that is not a grieving husband looking for his wife. That's a sociopath.
- [25:39]
Mark Geragos
But.
- [25:39]
Megyn Kelly
But we recently had on Amanda Knox, and she was talking about, you know, obviously she was wrongly prosecuted by this crazy Italian prosecutor. And she. Her affect, too, was a little off seeming at the time, and it was used against her in a very unfair way. You really can't go by that, as it turns out. And then the other thing is, what the theory seems to be from Janie and others, is that there were robbers, there were burglars in their Modesto, California neighborhood, that they were seen that previously. We were told that the robbery or the burglary they committed was on the 26th, but they have evidence that it actually happened on the 24th, and that lacy may have been walking her dog, may have seen them, and may have been kidnapped by them. The dog was later found by itself with its leash still on. Some believe Scott did that to make it look like somebody grabbed her. And others, you know, his side will say that the burglars got her. So we'll watch all of it play out. I. I think it's fascinating. If he actually does get a new trial, it will be the new trial of the century. It's gonna like. No one will be able to peel their eyes away. It's just got too many salacious, interesting elements. Okay, so much more with Mark Garagos. He's represented everybody. Everybody, including Jussie Smollett, including Michael Jackson, gonna ask him about Kim Potter, Ghislaine Maxwell, and much, much more. Don't go away. Okay, Mark, so let's talk about Kim Potter. Kim Potter's the police officer who's now on trial for having shot Dante Wright to death, where she clearly mistook her Taser for her gun, or I guess her gun for her Taser. And you can hear her on the tape saying, I'm gonna tase you. Taser, Taser, Taser. And then she shoots with her firearm and he dies. And it's obviously a tragic accident, but the prosecutor there has decided to treat it as a crime. She's charged with first and second degree manslaughter and Boy, they are in a battle there in that courtroom. I mean, both sides are fighting it out. This is the case in which the prosecution had. I'm sorry, the judge had some lunatic show up at her house trying to videotape her. She spoke to that just the other day, saying it was an effort to intimidate me. Good luck. And the guy who did it was arrested. But anyway, a new piece of videotape now showing Kim Potter after the shooting. We've all seen the Taser. Taser, Taser. His new piece of videotape showing her right after that, upset. And hear how her fellow officer, Officer Johnson, tries to console her. Listen, there's a lot of crying, and then we'll get to the dialogue. Just breathe.
- [28:28]
Narrator/Announcer
That guy was trying to take off
- [28:29]
Mark Geragos
with me in the car.
- [28:34]
Megyn Kelly
There you have it. I mean, I don't know, Mark. I think the average person looks at that and says, why are we charging her again? She. She screwed up. But, like, how is it criminal?
- [28:46]
Mark Geragos
You know, there's. I've been on, obviously, the criminal defense side. I also do a. Probably half of my practice are suing police agencies and situations where people have been wrongly killed. And I've watched police officers almost uniformly get acquitted or have the judge dismiss at a probable cause proceeding. It's very, very difficult to ever convict a police officer. This case, I think, is very tough for the prosecution. And this tape, and I'm glad you played it, certainly gives. You know, people often say, well, they didn't show remorse or they didn't understand or they. There wasn't. They didn't act right. You know, I've spent a career defending people who didn't act right. I mean, clearly here, this is somebody who's in the throes of a great deal of angst, and I think that that is going to probably carry the day for him. Because, remember, other than people who are famous, police officers are the only other category of people that truly get a presumption of innocence.
- [29:59]
Megyn Kelly
Interesting. You know, to me, it boils down to the. What are the instructions going to be to the jury? Because if the judge tells the jury that she can't have behaved recklessly, which is required to prove first or second degree. If she can't have behaved recklessly without knowing she was taking a dangerous risk. You know what I mean? If she. If it was a true accident, she didn't realize she was pulling out a firearm and shooting, then I don't see how she gets convicted. Andrew Branca, who's been amazing. He's great. He writes over@legalinsurrection.com they were amazing during the Rittenhouse trial, and everything Andrew said was right. He put it as follows. I was like, this is exactly it. He says the critical question is this. Is the state required to prove that Kimberly Potter was aware that she was holding a firearm in her hand in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that her conduct in handling it was reckless and manslaughter? Do they have to prove she was aware that she was holding a firearm? The defense is. Their position is that you cannot be engaged in reckless conduct that you do not know you are engaged in. Right. Like you don't. You don't know you're firing a gun. And the judge hasn't. Hasn't instructed the jury, and it hasn't. And she hasn't given either side guidance on how this is going to come down. I kind of wonder, like, it all comes down to which way she ruled, how she informs on recklessness.
- [31:27]
Mark Geragos
Well, one of the problems is, and we've been arguing this in California state court for years, the difference between the state of mind for what's called an implied malice murder. The. The difference in homicide between murder and manslaughter is whether there's malice. Well, there's also what's called implied malice. If you act in such a way, the law will imply that you had the malice for murder. I've often argued, and I'm not alone here, that sometimes the state of mind when the jury gets the instruction on one of these manslaughter charges is very misleading, and a jury doesn't know what to do with it. And here you've got. I can understand why the judge is not giving guidance, so to speak, because they have what are called pattern instructions. They've got instructions that have been either affirmed or blessed, if you will, by the appellate courts. But she probably, in this case, wants to hear how the evidence comes out and then tailor it to that and tailor the instruction of that. But it's a horrific job for jurors, for laypeople to have to kind of parse through the language which never is very clear, and then put that in context of what am I going to do with a police officer who didn't go out there with the intention to do the killing? And so that's a, you know, God forbid that you're one of those jurors.
- [32:56]
Megyn Kelly
It's interesting because the defense seems to be hedging its bets. They're going to argue that she didn't have a state of mind at all, intending to kill anybody. Obviously she didn't intend to fire her. Her gun. I think we can all give her that based on what we've seen. Although some people aren't. But they also seem to be kind of hedging by saying even if she did intend to fire the gun, she had cause because the guy, Dante Wright was, was driving away with an officer in the car. Half in the car. Here is. So what the prosecution did was they put on officer Lucky, who was a three year officer, who she, she. Kim Potter was supposed to be training that day and he was a prosecution witness, sort of talking about his experience and what he saw. And then the defense attorney got up there and in like 20 minutes, seamless little boom, boom, boom, boom. Cross examination got out the following testimony. Let's listen to it.
- [33:53]
Narrator/Announcer
There's a voice that appears and says, kim, that guy was trying to take off with me in the car. Remember hearing that?
- [34:03]
Maureen Callahan
Yes.
- [34:04]
Narrator/Announcer
Whose voice was that?
- [34:05]
Maureen Callahan
Sergeant Johnson's voice.
- [34:07]
Narrator/Announcer
Is this a high crime area for guns as well? Yes. And for drugs? Yes. And your intuition is formulated by a number of things, but among them is that you've been in this area all your life. Yes. And know the streets as well as anybody.
- [34:25]
Mark Geragos
Yes.
- [34:26]
Narrator/Announcer
And you ran the plates, found that the tabs were stale and then you had a reason to stop the car, is that right?
- [34:34]
Maureen Callahan
Yes.
- [34:35]
Narrator/Announcer
So you wanted to find out what was going on. Yes. Because you had an intuition that something else was going on besides the tabs.
- [34:42]
Mark Geragos
Yes.
- [34:44]
Narrator/Announcer
You didn't quite know, but you were curious.
- [34:47]
Mark Geragos
Yes.
- [34:48]
Narrator/Announcer
And there was nothing wrong with you stopping the car for the reasons you said you stopped it, Right?
- [34:56]
Maureen Callahan
Correct.
- [34:56]
Megyn Kelly
No. So he's just basically just trying to set up it was a proper stop, you were following order and that this was an area that was known for problematic crimes and criminals and so on. And you also get out the fact that the one officer was half in the car when he tried to take off.
- [35:17]
Mark Geragos
It's a technique that was used by the defense lawyer that he's probably been gored by that countless times by prosecutors who go through that same litany when they're trying to convince convict one of his clients. I mean, I've heard that kind of this is a high crime area. This is why you had an intuition, this is why you did it. Blah, blah, blah. That's. That, that's normally what the prosecutor would do here. Because you have a cop who's on trial, they the other cop is going to support your theory. You're being the defense lawyer and is going to give you what you want. Which is exactly what he just did right there. And by the way, you're absolutely correct, Meghan. Because what this does is. Is even if you think that she. That she isn't being truthful when she says she had a gun, that even with a gun, there is, you know, she had a reasonable doubt as to what was happening there and whether or not she could use the force that she used, what do you think?
- [36:18]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, if you had to place a bet, and I realize the trial's in the middle, but, like, what would you guess a jury would do with this? Because I realized the prosecution's, like, it was irresponsible. You know, a man's dead. She needs to be held accountable. But it's like, you watch this distraught woman. She's been on the force 26 years. She's not like Chauvin. She doesn't have a litany of complaints against her. She's a mom. You can hear her distress. They're really gonna throw this woman in jail for upwards of 15 years. That Keith Ellison there wants to jack up the sentencing guidelines on her. He wants them to throw the book at this woman.
- [36:49]
Mark Geragos
Well, I'll tell you during. I'll give you an example. During the Rittenhouse trial, one of the reasons I was kind of leery of predicting, even though I thought that it looked to me like it was a self defense, was you can'. Look or I can't see the jurors. I mean, the jury selection. I've said this for years, is everything. Most cases are over by the time you've sworn the panel, because you. You understand, I don't care how good you are as a lawyer, you're never going to change people's view or their prism for what they look through and who they are. So you have to basically pick a jury or deselect a jury that'll give you your best shot. So I haven't seen their jury, but I will tell you that so far, the way the evidence is unfold, it sure is a compelling argument for a not guilty. And that, I think is probably where it's headed. I. Like I said, I'll circle back to what I told you before. Cops get a presumption of innocence that a lot of other people don't get.
- [37:51]
Megyn Kelly
That's true. And they don't always deserve it. But I feel like in this case, come on, the woman, she made a terrible mistake. She didn't have a history of negligence on the force. You can show this is like a hothead or she. She never had any business having the badge. Not only did she resign right after this happened, but the chief of police was forced out. It was like, okay. By the way, the New York Times is reporting that there was a lawsuit against Dante Wright's family, raising questions about whether Dante Wright. In May of 2019, the woman filing a lawsuit claims that Dante Wright shot her son in the head in Minneapolis, leaving him severely disabled. I mean, I don't know that the jury's gonna hear anything about that. But. But, you know, it's. The cops walk up to these defendants not knowing what they're dealing with, but they always have to presume the guy's got a gun and is willing to use it.
- [38:42]
Mark Geragos
Well, I saw that today. And most probably that will not come into evidence because unless the cop knew or had some indication that they knew about that incident, the judge would probably rule that that's inadmissible. But having seen that, it certainly, I think, would give pause to a prosecutor if they knew about they were filing the case and what charges they were filing. I mean, that's when you get back to prosecutorial discretion. And part of the argument you've kind of implicitly made here, Megan, is why are they exercising their discretion in this way on this case? What is the motivation for that? Is it because they want to seek justice or are they pandering? So that's this Keith Ellison.
- [39:30]
Megyn Kelly
He's a. He's a political hack. I mean, he is. He's a political hack and he's the AG there. And he's the one who insisted on jacking up the charges. And now he wants to push for a jacked up sentence if she's found guilty. It happened in the wake of George Floyd and it was in Minnesota. So all the, you know, temperatures are already up and the nation is stressed. And that was reflected, I think, in her reaction to what she did. But we still need to, you know, the law is the law, and not everything's a crime just because it's awful. And she and the city will be sued. I think they already sued. And they'll get millions of dollars. That's, to me, the remedy here. A civil lawsuit, which is going to go the way of the family. More with Mark Garrigos. We're going to pick up Jesse Smollett right after this break, who is represented by his firm. Oh, that's exciting. So, Mark, Jussie Smollett. The trial is in deliberations right now. The jury has had the case for about five hours, is, by my count, to Two hours yesterday after closing arguments. And now they began this morning right after 9 central time. So five hours, they're deliberating. And just FYI, the racial makeup of the jury is, let's see, they're white, the majority white, middle aged, one black man, one black woman is an alternate. And they are now kicking around whether they believe Jussie Smollett was the victim of a hate crime or made the whole thing up for favorable publicity. So I didn't realize until preparing for this that you, your firm, had a role in this case.
- [41:06]
Mark Geragos
Well, I handled the case originally, the first time it was dismissed. And had I violated one of my standard rules, which is I generally will not do a state court case, criminal case, out of state, out of California. I just, I think I'll do federal. Anywhere but state court. Criminal, I always think is the kind of a weird creature, so to speak. But we did it there, got it dismissed. I thought that was the end of it. And then, lo and behold, the case was once again resurrected. And I am kind of dancing on the head of a pin here because my New York partner, Tina, is trying it with local council Nenye. And I was hoping, actually, that there would have been a resolution before this because the judge has kind of indicated that he's issued an informal gag order. And even though I'm not on the trial team this time around, my partner is. So I'm trying to dance around that. I will tell you that I thought it was resolved fairly last time. I have my own theories as to what's going on right now, but since there's an informal gag order, I'm gagging myself. But I have a lot to say. And after a verdict or a resolution here, I'm happy to fill you in as to what I really think is going on.
- [42:34]
Megyn Kelly
I accept. You mean with, with a lengthy deliberation or with the fact that charges.
- [42:39]
Mark Geragos
Well, with the why this was resurrected, why the case was resurrected, kind of the players involved in everything that has transpired. I think, I think, frankly, it's outrageous that he's on trial again for the very same thing that it was already resolved on.
- [42:57]
Megyn Kelly
What punishment did he face the first time around?
- [43:00]
Mark Geragos
Well, the punishment was he was, the case was dismissed. He forfeited $10,000, which was the, basically the 10% of the bail, and had performed some community service. So that those were all the things
- [43:15]
Megyn Kelly
I, I, that's nothing he deserves. I don't think he belongs in jail for a long time, but he deserves to be punished. He made this whole thing Up. He undermined legitimate claims of rape, racial attacks. He did more to damage, you know, black people who genuinely get attacked by racists than anybody's done in a long, long time. And he should face trial and be punished.
- [43:34]
Mark Geragos
Okay, so you and I can agree to disagree.
- [43:37]
Megyn Kelly
I like it when you can't argue.
- [43:38]
Mark Geragos
Yeah, I was just gonna say, when I'm not muzzled, I'm happy to respond to all of that, including the fact that he's maintained his innocence, testified that it didn't happen, and the only thing, so does O.J. yeah, well, the O.J. i always say the jury got it right in Both cases in O.J.
- [43:55]
Megyn Kelly
the understand that. I understand that the, the proof argument in the OJ Case, but that man killed his wife and her friend Ron Goldman, and there's absolutely zero doubt in my mind.
- [44:05]
Mark Geragos
And the civil jury did their job.
- [44:08]
Megyn Kelly
That's right. Exactly right. All right, so. So we'll table Jussie Smollett and we will accept your invitation to come back and discuss it. I do think it's five hours is actually not that long because they have a lot to go through, and I don't think. I think it's too early to be drawing conclusions one way or the other. You know, people who think it's clear are like, why didn't they come, come back two hours? You know, But I think out of respect for the process, a lot of juries just want to go through the evidence, go through the testimonies, and you never know. There's a whole.
- [44:33]
Mark Geragos
And that's, that's. I've had jurors say that in high profile cases. I remember in a case I tried in Santa Monica 20 years ago that I asked them why they were out. They came back and they acquitted the client across the board. They said, well, what were you hung up on? They said, we really, really weren't hung up. It's just, it's a high profile case. We didn't want people to think that we were just going to come back not guilty immediately, a la OJ So they. Jurors are aware of that. They get that.
- [45:00]
Megyn Kelly
Yep. There is a question, interesting piece over on National Review today about whether Jussie Smollett should face perjury charges. Because to people on, you know, my side of the aisle who think he's clearly lying and have been listening to the, you know, police chief and everybody all along, they, they conclude what he said on that stand was so patently false that he should be facing charges for it. I mean, there's no question either he was lying or those two brothers were lying. That both cannot be true.
- [45:28]
Mark Geragos
So idea that you're going to keep torturing me with this when I can't respond because.
- [45:32]
Megyn Kelly
Well, let me ask it this way. Let me ask it this way.
- [45:34]
Mark Geragos
I don't want to get my poor partner in trouble who's sitting here.
- [45:36]
Megyn Kelly
How unusual is it now? I won't forget, Jesse. How unusual would it be to, if there's an acquittal in a criminal case for the prosecutor to then come back and charge the man acquitted did with having perjured himself?
- [45:52]
Mark Geragos
Well, let me give you an example that happens more often in federal court where you have sentencing guidelines. If you get on the stand and testify and lose, you get your sentence enhanced. I mean, that's that because you did not accept responsibility, you basically obstructed justice, you lose three levels of acceptance. So it happens in the reverse all the time. And it shouldn't be that way, but it is because you've got an absolute right to go to trial, force the prosecution to prove their case. You shouldn't get punished when you go to trial and try to prove that you're not by taking the stand, which is waiving your fifth Amendment rights. So I take the opposite. In fact, it reminds me of when people say, how do you sleep at night knowing that your client is guilty? And I said, I don't lose sleep over that. I lose sleep over going away. When I, I've got a client who I believe is innocent, that's when I lose sleep and engage in alcohol therapy.
- [46:52]
Megyn Kelly
Right. 100%. You know, when I went to law school, I used to be that person. I wanted to be a prosecutor. And there was a very well known defense attorney, never would have guessed a very well known defense attorney who came in and started talking to us. And the young idealistic me actually asked that question, how do you sleep at night? You're knowing that you're, you're getting guilty murderers and so on off. And he answered it the same way you did. I come around. I'm definitely more prosecuted, prosecution oriented still. But I love the role that criminal defense attorneys play and it is critical to due process to the nation standing on the stilts upon which it was built originally. And I hate that it's being eroded, you know, more and more in various settings and sort of you get railroaded for ideology if without a defense lawyer.
- [47:40]
Mark Geragos
You know, it's interesting flip that has taken place. You know, I made my career basically in the 90s defending Susan McDougal, who was Bill and Hillary Clinton's erstwhile business partner in Whitewater. And I tried her case in Santa Monica. I tried against the Office of Independent Counsel for an obstruction of justice. We won in Little Rock against Ken Starr. And all the office arguments that we used to make and that the Democrats used to make in the 90s about an office of Independent counsel and a prosecutor who had political motives, well, now you see that those are the same arguments that President Trump was. Yeah, it's all been almost identical. And the Democrats were all of a sudden embracing law.
- [48:27]
Megyn Kelly
Hold on, Stan. I'm standing you by the air. There's much, much more to discuss, including, including Alec Baldermonk, Michael Jackson. We'll do it right after this quick break.
- [48:36]
Narrator/Announcer
UnitedHealth Group is simplifying healthcare by investing in tools to help patients know more and pay less. These tools help patients find providers and compare costs and save hundreds of dollars annually. Learn more@unitedhealthgroup.com commitment.
- [48:52]
Megyn Kelly
Hey, everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life, and just a warning, I'm gonna be giving my opinion. Also, have some really fun guests to
- [49:05]
Maureen Callahan
join in on the fun.
- [49:06]
Megyn Kelly
The Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube. All right, let's talk Alec Baldwin, because I did listen to your Reasonable Doubt podcast with Adam where you talked about that, and as usual, you were fascinating on it and had some very strong thoughts on Alec's decision to come out and fight the PR war before the legal war, which is the far more important war, has been settled. You can't stop these huge egos, you know, from going out there and doing what they believe that is best for them and the brand. Now, I want to play for the audience the, the section I heard you taking particular issue with on the question of whether he feels guilty.
- [49:52]
Narrator/Announcer
Listen, no, no, I feel that there is. I feel that, that, that someone is
- [49:59]
Mark Geragos
responsible for what happened. And I can't say who that is, but I know it's not me. I mean, I, honest to God, if I felt that I was responsible, I might have killed myself if I thought I was responsible.
- [50:13]
Megyn Kelly
So why did you not like that?
- [50:15]
Mark Geragos
I. Look, there was an easy way to thread this needle. If you're insistent on throwing yourself on the grenade is obviously he is the. The you say, do I feel guilty? Yes, I feel horrible guilt in a moral sense. But legally, do I feel responsible? No, I would never have Done this, blah blah blah. I mean there's a way to thread that needle. This response he is going to get, you know, I don't wish a criminal prosecution on anybody in the world. I mean it's the worst thing in the world. But to go through, but he's going to have this thing at a very baseline level jammed right back up at him in civil lawsuit depos all kinds of ways. And it's a horrible, horrible look. And by the way, you would mention Scott Peterson in the GMA as we're talking right now, as we speak, the judge in, in Mr. Smollett's case is apparently reconsidering the GMA interview there. I mean one of the things I have a. And I had mentioned Susan McDougall, one of her kind of bet noirs in her prosecutions was the GMA interview. So God knows if you're a CR criminal defendant, that's the axis of evil is to ever get on the gma.
- [51:30]
Megyn Kelly
I'll tell you, do not do the GMA interview.
- [51:34]
Mark Geragos
Anything but gma.
- [51:36]
Megyn Kelly
You know, GMA is like they're big. ABC in general is very big on crime. So that's why they get all these exclusives because they've made that part of their beat. What would you do with that? Like if you had Alec Baldwin on the stand and you were representing Helena's family, you know, she was a cinematographer who got killed or some of the other guys that filed lawsuits who witnessed it for emotional distress. What would you do with that lawyer?
- [52:01]
Mark Geragos
Yeah, there's a lawyer who's co counsel I think with Gloria on one of these lawsuits. And I know exactly what they are going to do with it. They're going to take that. They're going to, they're going to jam it right back up. What do you mean you don't feel guilty? Who do you know that was responsible if it wasn't you? Why are you saying that? Why are you shirking your responsibility? By the way, every actor from John Schneider on the right to George Clooney on the left has already said this is an impossibility. If you were careful, blah blah blah, they're going to do a tap dance on him. And by the way, he's going to walk himself into, you know, they've only got a tower. Apparently if you believe what's being reported of $5 million in insurance, he's going to walk himself right into blowing through that tower and being personally responsible on top of it. So I don't know what he's thinking. I don't know why they think that image control is job number one. Job number one is to keep you out of harm's way criminally. Job number two is to deal with the civil liab. Job number three is to make amends morally and ethically for, you know, your role in this horrible, horrible situation, which I don't think it was intentional in the least. I don't buy any of the conspiracy theories. But at the same time, how do you, you know, he could have said the, the obvious solution is it's very difficult for me getting up in the morning because I was the last person who cocked that gun. Whether I pulled the trigger or not, I feel an enormous, enormous amount of guilt in a non legal sense over that.
- [53:36]
Megyn Kelly
Right, right. And the more he blames himself, the more our instinct would be to let him off the hook. Right. Like if you see him really beating himself up.
- [53:45]
Maureen Callahan
Right.
- [53:45]
Megyn Kelly
But he's doing the opposite.
- [53:47]
Mark Geragos
I explain this to clients all the time. Remorse is, you can, you can't fake remorse. You can't, you can't get up. People can sense that, whether it's a jury or a judge or a fact finder. Either you're authentic and you have remorse or you're a phony and you don't. I mean remorse. By the way, that tape you played earlier of the officer who shot Dante, that to me is real, authentic remorse and immediately angst.
- [54:18]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. So Alec, he didn't have to do this. He's been speaking with the police. Right. And so in trying to stave off legal charges, that's the avenue. Talk to the sheriff, have your lawyer there, make sure you're giving them all the information. He appears to have ticked off the sheriff with that Stephanopoulos interview because let me play the sound bite that Alec said that. That seems to be getting him in hot water because the sheriff has now responded publicly, which is not what you want. Here's Baldwin on whether he actually fired the gun.
- [54:49]
Mark Geragos
So I take the gun and I start to cock the gun. I'm not going to pull the trigger. I said, do you see that? She will just cheat it down and tilt it down a little bit like that and I cock the gun, I go, can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that?
- [54:59]
Narrator/Announcer
And she says, and then I let go of the hammer of the gun
- [55:01]
Mark Geragos
and the gun goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun, the gun goes off.
- [55:06]
Narrator/Announcer
At the moment the decisive.
- [55:07]
Mark Geragos
That was the moment the gun went off. Yeah, that was the moment they're going up.
- [55:10]
Narrator/Announcer
It wasn't in the script for the Trigger to be pulled.
- [55:14]
Mark Geragos
Well, the trigger wasn't pulled.
- [55:15]
Narrator/Announcer
I didn't pull the trigger. So you never pulled the trigger? No, no, no, no, no.
- [55:18]
Mark Geragos
I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never.
- [55:22]
Maureen Callahan
Right.
- [55:23]
Megyn Kelly
Because that really will get me sued. Well, now the Santa Fe sheriff has responded saying, and I quote, guns don't just go off, so whatever needs to happen to manipulate the firearm, he did that and it was in his, his hands. What would you have thought if you, if you saw that as Alex lawyer?
- [55:40]
Mark Geragos
I would have said, I told you so. And I would have, you know, probably pulled a Harlan Braun and resigned like he did in Robert Blake's case. I mean, you can't go out there. This is not a public relations issue. This is a criminal investigation. You can't go out there and then inflame the very person who is investigating you. You, as you say, said you cooperate. You try to show that you are anything but trying to provoke them. But they. He's repeatedly done everything that he shouldn't do. It's almost a textbook case of what you shouldn't do when you're in harm's way.
- [56:21]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, it's. He's not campaigning for an Oscar. He's trying to keep himself out of jail and out of bankruptcy court.
- [56:28]
Mark Geragos
Well, you know, he said the other day, I don't know if you saw it or if you've got the clip. He said, somebody told me basically, I'm not in harm's way. I don't know who that somebody was unless they're baiting you into being stupid. So I.
- [56:40]
Maureen Callahan
Right.
- [56:41]
Mark Geragos
It's mind boggling to me if somebody's telling you that. I hope it isn't your lawyer.
- [56:46]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, we haven't heard that from the sheriff. Okay, so let's talk about speaking of famous clients with huge egos who believe they know better when it comes to dealing with the press and how to handle law enforcement. Michael Jackson, while you were dealing with the Scott Peterson case, you are representing Michael Jackson on the child molestation criminal case. And I realized that ended because you had to focus on Scott Peterson. And Michael was like, only one person can represent me. But that was crazy. You were everywhere.
- [57:17]
Mark Geragos
I'll give you a backstory there. The originally, before that case was filed, I had had repeated conversations with the DA and his name was Tom Sneddon, I believe. Yeah, I kept telling him, this case is a loser. I don't know what you're. This famous Arvizo family. I've investigated, I have figured out and I did it in real time for Michael because I'd represented Michael for years at that point. And I knew that they, this was not a family that was going to end well for Michael. And so I advised them the, the, the Jackson team, they needed to kind of extricate themselves from this. And sure enough, they did. And then the Arvizo family went to the same lawyer that had represented the accuser from 1993, that Howard Weitzman, when Howard.
- [58:12]
Megyn Kelly
Can I just clarify something, Mark? I just got a little lost there. You told Michael to extricate himself from what? Really, like when he was friends with the boy and the family prior to that accusing him, you were like, these are grifters. Do not befriend them. That was basically your take.
- [58:26]
Mark Geragos
I. Yeah, I won't reveal the attorney client, but that's a pretty good, pretty good synopsis. And so then what happened was, was is the Santa Barbara DA ended up indicting him so that they wouldn't go to a probable cause preliminary hearing. In California, almost all criminal felony cases are prosecuted by way of a preliminary hearing. They didn't want the witnesses on the stand because they knew what we would do to them. So they didn't end run. They indicted. Well, when they indicted, they indicted him on a conspiracy. That was the first count. Well, I took a look at that and I remember saying to Michael at the time, I said, hey, this conspiracy has nothing to do with you. This was my investigation of the rv. So family, I'm going to end up having to testify in this case. You need another lawyer. Which is when we brought in Johnnie Cochran, brought in Ben Broffman, my good buddy Ben.
- [59:20]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, because you testified. I remember that you testified not once
- [59:24]
Mark Geragos
but twice that I was the one who did the investigation. I was. You couldn't blame Michael for that. I was the one who was. Any so called conspiracy, which was kind of manufactured by the prosecutor, was at my behest.
- [59:39]
Megyn Kelly
I see. Because they were like, Michael, you've been investigating this poor family, this poor young child. And you were like, it wasn't him, it was me. So you couldn't represent him. You were a witness.
- [59:49]
Mark Geragos
I was a witness. And like I say, I didn't testify just once in front of Judge Melville and the jury. I testified twice and I'll never forget the second time saying something which that jury found to be very humorous. I think I was mocking the prosecutor and I turned to Pat Harris, who was then with me and I said, this jury's never going to convict him. This is a laughing jury, is an acquitting jury.
- [60:16]
Megyn Kelly
That's an interesting rule. So. And you were right. They did not convict him. But of course, stories about him would continue. Well, yeah, because as you point out, the family had to, like they'd sued other people. Like, when you see these vexatious litigants who sue over and over and over again, it's like, okay. But the accusations against him would never stop. And I've been dying to ask you about this. And I use. You know, a lot of our listeners are just listeners. They're not watching this on YouTube. So I'm using Air Quotes, the documentary about Michael that was on hbo and what you thought of those two accusers, James Safechuck and Mark.
- [60:56]
Mark Geragos
Well, Robson, I'll tell you what I thought about that documentary. I came very close to suing. I came very close to suing in that case because I remember Adam actually on our podcast had played a clip from the documentary, and they made it seem like I was saying, I'm going to land like a ton of bricks on top of these accusers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That isn't what happened. What the documentary filmmaker had done was he cut and spliced a press conference. I had done. The press conference was because when I picked up Michael from Vegas and took him to Santa Barbara to surrender the air carrier, the private charter had installed a pinhole camera that had spied on my attorney client conversations with Michael. Yes. So I. You know how I found out about that? Greta Van Suster called me the next morning and said, there's a guy who's shopping, a lawyer who's shopping conversation on the jet with Michael for a million bucks.
- [62:03]
Narrator/Announcer
And I.
- [62:03]
Mark Geragos
She gave me the name. I called the lawyer, I said, are you out of your mind? You can't, you can't shop this. This was attorney client. You're. And he said, my client thinks he's won the lottery. So I went to court, I got a restraining order, came outside and said, I'm going to land like a ton of bricks on you when you violate the attorney client privilege. The documentary makes cut and pasted that to make it seem like I was talking about the accusers, which I wasn't, by the way. That guy who we got the restraining order against was later prosecuted, federally convicted. And I got a $25 million judge or $22 million judgment against him for. For that as well. Well, the court of appeal reversed it and said that that was excessive.
- [62:49]
Megyn Kelly
I'm sure the guy doesn't have $22 million anyway, but it's A moral victory. I can't believe your life is so fascinating. You've met like you just done everything. He represented everyone. So I saw that documentary and I was like, okay, it's not. Doesn't look good for Michael, that's for sure. But because I am a lawyer at heart, like you, I needed to know more. So I started digging and digging and digging. And then I found all this stuff, in particular about Wade, about the, the lies he's told in his civil litigation against the Jackson estate. About how he denied having shopped, written and shopped a book about Michael. Michael with laudatory things in it. And then it turned out they found it. They got it from like Random House or one of the publishers. So he lied. He got caught lying under oath at his deposition. Then they demanded copies of said book from his computer. He. He said he didn't have any or. So he basically lied at every step. And then they proved that he had copies on his computer that he tried to write over. I mean, he was lying all along. And the other guy, James Satan, every single point.
- [63:51]
Mark Geragos
And that documentary maker should be ashamed of himself.
- [63:55]
Megyn Kelly
He didn't mention any of it, Mark. He didn't mention any of it exactly.
- [64:00]
Mark Geragos
It was completely sanitized. It was a complete rewrite of history. But you know, that's. I hate to say that that's emblematic, but it certainly seems to be emblematic of what's happening in America right now and with what I think people on the right like to call mainstream media. But it's really kind of abhorrent as to what's happened with journalism, so called journalism and the docu journalism.
- [64:25]
Megyn Kelly
Well, then you get the imprimatur of Oprah at the end, like interviewing the documentary and like, oh, tell us all, just as truthful as we think you are, are you even more truthful? Your brilliance shines. It was this bullshit. I don't know what happened between Michael and either one of these men when they were younger. I don't know. No one knows. We weren't there, but. Well, they know. But the documentarian, again, air quotes, had an obligation to had information about those two accusers because the other guy, safe Chuck, had just been hit, I think, with a $500,000 lawsuit two weeks before he came out as an accuser. You know, it's like now, maybe that doesn't make him a liar, but we deserve, as an audience to know. We. We deserve to know. And I go on this tear a lot, Mark, because I hate the absence of due process and trial by Media, even though I'm in the media and what I hear from everybody is though, yeah, but he was a multi molester. Yeah, but he did it. Yeah, but it was a long line of boys that he molested. And I don't, I don't know whether that's true or not. I actually, I don't know whether it's true. I heard, I heard the same things everybody else heard.
- [65:33]
Mark Geragos
People would say, would you take your son? Because my, when I was representing Michael, my son was 10 years old, they used to say, would you take your son Jake to Neverland? And I said, well, actually I did several occasions.
- [65:45]
Megyn Kelly
So yeah, but did you let him stay overnight?
- [65:47]
Mark Geragos
I don't, I don't know anything about the other accusations. I do know that the accusations when it involved the case I was dealing with were ludicrous.
- [65:56]
Megyn Kelly
But what about that? Right? Because I would not allow my son to spend an overnight with any parent, with any grownup. You know, like that's weird and you shouldn't allow it. And Michael was a large child. I mean, I've read you say that too, but still, you just don't let your 6 year old spend an overnight with a grownup under any circumstances. But what do you think, like when you think about him? Do you believe you said you have a sixth sense. Do you have a sixth sense that he was capable of it?
- [66:26]
Mark Geragos
No, I really didn't. I mean he just, there was a childlike naivete on his part and by the time I got to him, he had been, you know, you're talking in the 2000s, this was not the same Michael Jackson that was in the 90s and at least as reported to me. And I represented him for a couple of years and every encounter I had with him he was just, I thought he'd just been pilloried, he'd been beat up basically and it was, I thought, awful. I mean it really, it really kind of made you sad. I mean I was a huge fan in the 80s and, and I just, I just didn't think he had, he had kind of become trapped, so to speak. And it was an awful thing to watch.
- [67:12]
Megyn Kelly
Putting tabling for now the allegations against him since we don't, we're not going to resolve those here. Do you think that there is his situation and what happened to him personally was analogous to what happened to Elvis? You know, like that level of fame, attention, grifters.
- [67:29]
Mark Geragos
I think it's, I think that's exactly it. I see this play out, you know, one of the. I represented Chris Brown for about 10 years. And Chris, I was always worried that would happen to him, and it did not. I mean, he kind of pulled himself out of all of that that he had been involved in. And you worry when. When somebody reaches fame so early and on such a magnitude that what it does to you. And so, you know, they. I think that. I think that's a. An apt comparison by you. And I think that it's interesting that he had that relationship with Elvis's daughter as well.
- [68:10]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, that's right. There are just certain people who reach this bizarre level of fame that is in no way healthy. I would put Tom Cruise in that same category too. I don't think his. His weird Scientology rants are totally unconnected to his incredible fame and success and just what it does to a person. I would not wish that on. On my. For my children, for anybody I care about.
- [68:36]
Mark Geragos
I've walked down the street with various clients. I'll give you a couple of examples. I've walked down the street. I r. Represented Mike Tyson for a period of time, and I've walked from my office with Mike down to another building to do a mediation. And I've seen what people do, and I've walked down the street with Michael. I've walked down the street with Colin Kaepernick. The level of fame and what happens and the fact that you really can't go out, you're outside without stopping traffic, literally, and people kind of besieging, you know, I mean, it's. It's on a level that it's really hard to capture and make people understand for certain people when they get to a certain level of fame and. And kind of notoriety.
- [69:25]
Megyn Kelly
Would you. Would you say that probably the most famous person you've represented and seen that with is Adam Carolla? I feel like that's.
- [69:35]
Mark Geragos
You know, I will tell you something about. About Adam. I. I often say. Adam always says that he thinks about me when he sees anything legal. I. In the last six or seven years that we've done the podcast together, I've learned more about human nature. He's a great sociologist and. And really kind of social or cultural anthropologist. His observations are so spot on.
- [70:01]
Narrator/Announcer
He's got such a.
- [70:02]
Mark Geragos
He's got such a way of viewing the world that. That is just, you know, that you. You rarely come across somebody like that.
- [70:09]
Megyn Kelly
It's true. He's one of those people you just want to shut up and listen to. It's just like, go on, just keep going. Because he has a way of capturing what's happening in the Nation. That's very unique. But jumping back because I know you didn't represent him, he's just your friend and co host. But I do. Can I just ask about Michael Jackson?
- [70:26]
Mark Geragos
Actually, I did represent him, but we won't talk.
- [70:28]
Megyn Kelly
What'd he do?
- [70:31]
Mark Geragos
That's a whole different sense. That's a whole different. I have represented it at him.
- [70:36]
Megyn Kelly
So I'm gonna get him. I'm gonna do a. Yeah, you get
- [70:39]
Mark Geragos
him in here and cross examine him. I'll see you.
- [70:42]
Narrator/Announcer
I'll.
- [70:42]
Mark Geragos
We'll test your chops and see what you got.
- [70:45]
Megyn Kelly
I still got it. I do.
- [70:48]
Mark Geragos
You're raising boys. You gotta. Right?
- [70:50]
Megyn Kelly
That's right. Oh my God. 100. Although my daughter's just a formidable. I mean, I, I always say, like, they could. They could send her down to Guantanamo. She could get anything out of anybody down there. She. So when you were with. With Michael Jackson, since you spent so much time with him, like, what was he like? Would you mind just describing it? So he's. He was childlike, but like, can you expand on it? Because I'm genuinely curious what that would be like.
- [71:11]
Mark Geragos
By the time I got to him in the. Like I say in the 2000s, we spent. I spent multiple times or multiple days at Neverland, so watched him there. I watched him in. When he was camped out in Vegas as well. The. He was struggling. I mean, I think that's the best way to put it. He was struggling with all the things that were happening with the accusations. He was frustrated by it. And I kind of. There was a lot of empathy I had for him. One of the things that's hardest about doing the kind of work that we do is when you've got people who are in the eye of a storm, it's very hard to try to get them centered because it's kind of an existential threat. The criminal prosecution is. There's. I often tell clients, at least with a sudden death of a loved one, you have the ability to mourn, to have a funeral or some kind of a ceremony awake. And then you get to move on. You get some kind of closure. You never really get that in a criminal case. And so that's what I witnessed. And it was awful to watch. It's just a. It's a strain, it's a drain. And it's just a. It's a real, real painful thing to watch somebody who is so creative, who is so brilliant, who's such a genius in one area to have to deal with something that is so foreign to them.
- [72:42]
Megyn Kelly
Right. And so ugly. I mean, just terrible, terrible accusations. So much more to go over with Mark there. I could do this all day. I could keep you here for 10 hours and I'd still have more, more to talk about. We're going to pick it up after the break. I want to ask Mark about cnn, where he worked for a while. What does he think about how they're, how they are today. Okay, so, Mark, I used to watch you for years on CNN back when CNN was watchable and you'd give your legal analysis on everything. And then you were gone one day and I was like, somehow you were linked to Michael Avenatti. And I was like, okay, he must have been texting temporarily insane because Mark Garagos is way too smart to associate his brand with that lunatic. So what happened? Why you don't work there anymore? What happened and why would you ever have associated with that nut case?
- [73:31]
Mark Geragos
Well, I represented Michael. So as a client, I mean, he had a DV case and I represented him and I had known him for domestic violence a number of months. And then the cases you mentioned, mentioned happened in New York. Cnn, in their infinite wisdom, decided to cut and run. In fact, I think I famously called them the cut and run network. But they were already kind of descending into this polemic that they've decided the path they decided to go down. I think there was some kind of irony that you would see Anderson situation sitting with Toobin next to him as they're announcing that Cuomo would be suspended. And now I'm seeing where Mr. Zucker is being pilloried for his handling of the situation. And I think the writing's on the wall. There's going to be a shake up. And the largest stockholder in their merger there has already said they need to get back to what they used to do, which is Malone of the Discovery Channel. So I think within the next six weeks you'll see a reboot. Given what's happened over there and the ratings and everything else, they're not long for this world in their present kind of composition.
- [74:51]
Megyn Kelly
Are you shocked? I mean, I've said publicly I used to watch CNN when I was getting ready for the Kelly file, I used to have in my office, I had CNN on, not Fox because It was like O'Reilly before me and who I think is enormously talented, but he's not. You know, if you want to get facts, at least back then, you would put on cnn, you would put on Anderson Cooper. And that's gone. Even Anderson gone. They went the hard partisan during Trump and it was way more opinion from the anchors than I ever wanted. And it was all uniformly anti Trump, anti Republican. And it remains thus to this day. I wonder, having come from the belly of the beast, what, what you think when you watch it.
- [75:26]
Mark Geragos
Well, I, I often used to say, I, I thought there was some kind of. I hate to psychoanalyze them, but, you know, Zucker, as people tend to forget, was that NBC, BBC, when Donald Trump was kind of anointed with the Apprentice series. And I think that there was something going on where he just decided to go all in on the anti Trump network and turn it into that. And you know, at this point, like you, I have to go search for BBC, sometimes Al Jazeera to try to get any kind of a fat actual or what's going on in the world. You just can't find what it used to be 20 years ago. I mean, it used to be that you had Larry King on there for many years. And I always thought that was a fascinating show, which is why I did it, because it was long form. People would talk kind of like what you're doing now, and you would get to at least hear things that weren't just like a Twitter bite of 140 characters. You get people to talk, you'd have a give and take. They could have different viewpoints and you would hear that. That, to me is more interesting than somebody just going on a polemic with two other people who are kind of their cheerleaders.
- [76:43]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. You might learn something. You might be intellectually stimulated instead of just outraged all the time. How about that? What, what did you make of. I mean, right, so CNN cut and run because you were sort of with Avenatti when he got caught up in that thing to exterminate.
- [76:58]
Mark Geragos
I was there and had. Was trying to. Mind you, I had a relationship with Nike. I knew Michael and tried to kind of mediate a situation that I thought would turn out bad. I mean, I've got a. We could do a whole hour on what, what happened there. But like I say, Michael was also a client. I don't want to denigrate him in any way, shape or form.
- [77:24]
Megyn Kelly
I'll do it.
- [77:25]
Mark Geragos
Yeah, I mean, you. Yeah, you will do it. And I'll sit and just listen to you.
- [77:31]
Megyn Kelly
Well, so he got, he wound up getting charged criminally. We had many legal problems. This is just one of them. But it's funny because he had a mistrial.
- [77:40]
Mark Geragos
He went pro per or pro se. Federal court in Orange county, got a mistrial based upon prosecutorial misconduct. It's actually up in front of the ninth Circuit now as to whether that's once in jeopardy, because normally if you get a mistrial and you request it as a defendant, you don't get a once in jeopardy, meaning that you can't be tried again. But there is a kind of a sliver of the law that says if you're goaded in the asking for a mistrial by the prosecution, that can be the one instance where the prosecution can't try you again.
- [78:15]
Megyn Kelly
Well, whatever it is, he's a bad man. But. But you're not. And CNN did cut and baked just because you were in a meeting with him. That's the end of your relationship after what, a decade they'd been making money
- [78:27]
Mark Geragos
off closer to 20 years. I mean, I will tell you, it was really. And I had always resisted being a contributor because I always felt that being a contributor meant that I would have an issue with kind of advocating for clients because some clients do not belong on cnn. In years past, I would want them either on a morning show or I would want them somewhere else in terms of where I thought they were best. But finally, they were kind of relentless. And I did, I did take a contributorship with the caveat that I was able to do other things. And if it was client related, they had no input whatsoever. And they just cut and run like nobody's business. I think because they felt that, that they, you know, there was a lot of people who were second guessing themselves about Michael when that happened.
- [79:21]
Megyn Kelly
And well, that was smart of them to do because they expressed no skepticism about him and his ridiculous claims about Trump and so on. I mean, I was at NBC at the time and I had him on and he was expecting to get the same treatment from me that he got from the mainstream media. And I really felt like a simple Google search would have served him very well in misunderstanding me, you know, him getting over his misunderstanding of me. And I gave it to him pretty tough. And it's fine. I gave it to the other guy who was on the opposite side of him tough too. This is Stormy Daniels case, but it was very clear that he was, this is not an honest lawyer. And what he did to Kavanaugh was unforgivable. But I think the fact that CNN promoted him and so, and they felt so guilty, they didn't need to take it on you just because it was your client. You were in this one meeting with him. And to, to me, they, now it's like they won't cut, cut, you know, ties with Masturbator on the air, Jeffrey Toobin. How much did Chris Cuomo have to do? Don Lemon credibly accused by a guy of Don allegedly fondling his own genitals and then rubbing his hands all over this poor guy's face in a bar. I had him on the show. There's an eyewitness. And I feel like what, what is the moral handbook that they are following?
- [80:37]
Mark Geragos
Like I say, I think that everything that I've been hearing, I still have friends there that, that I've known, like I say, for decades. And everything that I'm hearing is that Zucker's not long for the job and that people are not happy with what's happened to it. And you know, it's not exactly unpredictable. I mean, they kind of went all in on the Trump and obviously once Trump was gone, what are you going to do? So the ratings have cratered. It's really, you know, I'm old enough to remember when they would get a 10 share and now you're talking below a 1 share. So I mean, that's astonishing. I read the other day where Chris's 9 o' clock show sometimes was getting 900,000 people. I mean there was a time when CNN, you could just have the color bars on there and you get 900,000 people.
- [81:32]
Megyn Kelly
Oh yeah. I mean when I launched Americ Newsroom with Hemmer in 2007, we created that show from 9am to 11am we'd get around 1.3 million. And we were thrilled and the company was thrilled with that. At nine in the morning when everybody's at work, it was like, great. And now, I mean, all this time later for the 9:00pm on CNN to not even be cracking a million. It's embarrassing. I mean they're always like in the wake of his downfall, they're like the highest rated anchor on cnn. I'm like, you should not be bragging, talking about that. You should not be. Don't call attention to the fact that he was here.
- [82:03]
Mark Geragos
And when you have to resort to talking about the demo, then you really know you're, you're desperate. So.
- [82:08]
Megyn Kelly
Well, the demo actually is relevant because that's what they basically advertisers on. That's like, that's how you get paid.
- [82:12]
Mark Geragos
The demo. The demo numbers are embarrassing when you take.
- [82:15]
Megyn Kelly
Oh my God. I mean, Fox's demo numbers, meaning under 25 to 54 year olds are higher than CNN's overall number, the number of overall households in the nation that are watching on many hours. So yeah, they're the wrong direction, and I hope it's true that they're going to get back to news because we need a channel that's a little bit more centrist.
- [82:39]
Mark Geragos
I think people are crying out for that. People want that. People want that kind of that. Just give me the news, let me go and you know, we're 20 minutes. I can watch and understand what's happening in the world. And by the way, not everything is America centric. I'd like something in the context of the world.
- [82:57]
Megyn Kelly
Well, forget it. You're not going to get that on cable news. The foreign news doesn't rate, which is why you rarely see it. Okay. I want to ask you about another avenue of cases that you've been filing when it comes to these Covid restrictions. You're in the People's Republic of California where the restrictions have been. I mean, I don't know how you're dealing. And so in addition to being a lawyer, you're a restaurateur. And tell us about what you've been trying to do and how it's been going in the courts.
- [83:25]
Mark Geragos
Well, it's frustrating because I. We won a victory at the trial court level in Los Angeles. We got a judge back when back, I want to say in November when we have an unelected county health officer named Barbara Flor without any evidence whatsoever, without any data whatsoever, we're talking a year ago she shut down outdoor dining. Now, mind you, I can sustain it as a restaurant, but most restaurateurs can't. I mean, there's 30,000 some odd restaurants in LA county and they, a number of them were not available business due to the COVID shutdowns. Well, then we went to and we moved to the outdoor dining. And that was working, and it was working well. People were able to survive, not the least of which because of some of the funding that took place. But then she just decreed there, there was going to be no more outdoor dining. And we sued and sure enough, we got a judge in the writ. Court ruled after basically issuing three orders to shoot show cause, and the county could not respond. They couldn't point to a single piece of data, a single study that showed that Covid was being transmitted outdoors by dining. So he enjoined them. Well, we ended up going. They got to stay at the court of Appeal. That was reversed. I've been up at the U.S. supreme Court and just within the last five days, they denied. The U.S. supreme Court denied the petition. But one of the things that's happening is Justice Gorsuch has basically called out this case, this 100 year old, 20 year old case named Jacobson and said that it's been given a towering presence. And I couldn't agree more. That's the fight that we've been fighting. That basically unelected bureaucrats from health departments are decreeing what people can do or not do. And that all of that is predicated on this state of emergency that our governor has announced. I think going on 20 months ago, we're still in a state of emergency in California, which is the only basis upon which the county health directors can do what they do.
- [85:38]
Megyn Kelly
It's so crazy because you're out there in California. Up until recently, I've been living in New York for 20 years almost. And the mayor of New York just on his own decided that 5 to 11 year olds must have mandatory vaccinations in order to eat inside any restaurant. There you have to double jab your 5 year old to eat in a restaurant, to go see the Rockettes, to go to a movie theater, to go to the gym, whatever, go see the Knicks. It's ridiculous. They've been going, they've been going to all of these events and the rates didn't spike. The spikes coming in the Northeast now because it's winter, right? That's the way it goes. But the children are not to blame. The children aren't a major factor in any of this. So we have these local legislators who are drunk on their own power. Like no dining outside. That's. Think about that. You just kind of, it's like, no, that's insane. That's insane. Covid's not spread outside in any meaningful way.
- [86:33]
Mark Geragos
The only thing, I mean, if you saw these stacks of paper that, that we file back and forth, the briefing. The only thing that was ever cited by the county in defense of this outdoor dining band was a what I would characterize as an anecdotal example of a person in Wuhan who had said he got it and he thought he got it outside. That is what we're facing is different.
- [86:59]
Megyn Kelly
He was eating a bat. That's not the same. I just feel like it's gotten so out of control. I love to see the lawsuits because they're drunk on their own. De Blasio is out of here at the end of this month. His reign, thank God, is ending. And what they say is he, I mean, talk about delusions. He thinks he's going to run for governor, hello, Earth to Bill. And that he want to shore up his support with his far left liberals by imposing all sort of Draconian orders on the people right before he left, and he's doing it. And now all these people think about the people coming from Europe with their kids. You know, they come to see New York the way we go to London, the way we go to Florence, and now what are they going to do? They can't take their kids anywhere. They can't do anything. Their trips are off for nothing, for an omicron, which, yes, it's more contagious, apparently, but it's. It's not killing anybody. There have been zero deaths from Akron.
- [87:53]
Mark Geragos
Well, and the problem is, is when you ask for any kind of data, when you ask for any kind of anything, just show me something. They can't answer you. And that's. That's a frame. Very frustrating situation to be in, both as a lawyer and as a restaurateur, as you call it there. It's, you know, restaurants are on a very thin margin to begin with, and you can't just continue to destroy restaurants and destroy the small businesses. And that's, unfortunately, what we've got. And it's only a matter of time before this catches up to us. I've said before, it's not gonna. This is not gonna end well.
- [88:35]
Megyn Kelly
All right, last line of inquiry before I let you go. You've been so generous with your time. I think when we saw. What we saw in the Rittenhouse case was what happens. I said this on the air. When social justice meets courtroom justice, you know, that to me, the courts are still the one place that haven't been totally co opted by the far left social justice warriors who just want identity to matter and not facts, not evidence. And it's a comfort to me, you know, as somebody who did practice law for a long time, it's a comfort to me. But when I see what they're teaching in law schools, there was just some case. Oh, my gosh, what was it? One of the university. One of the law schools now is requiring people to have an affirmative statement of how they're going to be anti racist and, you know, pursuing it. And it's like, what? Wait, it's none of your business what their political persuasions are, where they stand on these social issues. Just teach them the law. I worry about the up and coming generation of lawyers and whether we're going to be able to keep that divide between social justice and courtroom justice. What do you make of it?
- [89:35]
Mark Geragos
Look, I'll go back. We'll come full circle to McDougall again in the 90s. I was complaining then that that was kind of, at least by the Office of Independent Counsel, a political show trial. And guess what happened then? The script flipped, and sure enough, the same thing happened 20 years later, except now it was aimed at Republicans as opposed to Democrats. And there's plenty of blame to go around. But the lesson to take away from this is the worst place in the world to try to test out your social or cultural issues is in a criminal courtroom. That's where that should be. The one sacrosanct place where we, first of all, we have prosecutors who are making decisions that are based on justice as opposed to. To some other kind of calculation. And it should not be a political calculation. It should be a criminal justice calculation. So I'm with you. I share that. We've got young lawyers. I've got some great young lawyers, and I've experienced other young lawyers who I think, you know, could use a dose of. You know, my father, who was my partner for many years, used to say that one of the things he thought that the criminal justice system could use is a dose of the military justice system. And I'd say, what do you mean? And he said, well, in the military justice system, you can be a prosecutor one day and a defense lawyer the next day. And that's a great way to kind of weed out the ideological agendas. If you have to understand what it is to prosecute somebody and you have to understand what it is to actually defend a human being.
- [91:11]
Megyn Kelly
I like that. And conversely, any plaintiff's lawyer or prosecutor should be sued at least once in their life. Right. Be on the other side side of it. Feel the stress of what that can do.
- [91:22]
Mark Geragos
Exactly. Right. It should be a prerequisite.
- [91:25]
Megyn Kelly
All right, so now I'll let you go, but are you going to. At least, are you going to give me a prediction on how Jussie Smollett's going to come out? Hung jury, conviction?
- [91:32]
Mark Geragos
No, but I'll call you. I'll call you. I'll call into your. What is it, 1-800-Megan line.
- [91:37]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, 83344, Megan. Megyn, I'll call you after. All right, good. I'm going to hold you to that.
- [91:43]
Mark Geragos
Thank you, Meghan. I enjoyed this same.
- [91:45]
Megyn Kelly
Such a pleasure coming back. Please.
- [91:47]
Mark Geragos
Okay, thank you.
- [91:50]
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- [92:48]
Dan Cummins
If you're into the weird, the wild, and the downright bizarre, check out my podcast, Time Suck. Each week I dive into shocking stories like the rise of the Nexium cult, the origins of conspiracies like QAnon, and the San Francisco witch killer murders. With deep dives and dark humor, Time Suck brings you the stories that'll fascinate you, make you laugh, and fill your head with lots of strange, strange facts. New episodes drop every Monday. Join the cult of the curious. Follow Time Suck wherever you get your podcasts.
- [93:18]
Megyn Kelly
Today we are examining a serial killer that some in law enforcement have called unlike any other in modern American history. A predator who was meticulous, methodical, unpredictable, and for years, completely, completely undetected. His name, Israel Keys. Keys had no victim type, no geographic pattern, and an MO The FBI described to be as quote, unique as a fingerprint. Our very own Maureen Callahan, host of the Nerve, spent years uncovering how Keys operated. Her investigation led her to write the best selling book American the Hunt for the Most Meticulous Serial killer of the 21st century. Maureen also appears in the ABC true crime documentary Wild Crime 11 Skulls on Hulu, which traces the disappearance of Samantha Koenig, the crime that finally exposed Keys's double life. Watch.
- [94:25]
Mark Geragos
He was taking trips. He was killing people.
- [94:28]
Maureen Callahan
He buried victims all over the continental United States.
- [94:32]
Narrator/Announcer
Underneath his bed there was 11 skulls
- [94:35]
Megyn Kelly
drawn using a finger in blood.
- [94:38]
Mark Geragos
All of these victims souls belong to him.
- [94:41]
Megyn Kelly
They're mine.
- [94:43]
Mark Geragos
This guy is evil genius. I'm more sane than most Americans. He's the best serial killer that ever existed.
- [94:50]
Megyn Kelly
Maureen is one of the foremost experts on Keys and she joins me now. Hi. Hi. I've always known that you've written this book, but I had never read it and I never known who Israel Keys was. Why is his name so like, not on the list of all the big serial killers?
- [95:07]
Maureen Callahan
It's really wild, isn't it? Isn't it?
- [95:10]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [95:10]
Maureen Callahan
I mean, my Theory about it is that, you know, not long after Keys was apprehended, I'm going to say about nine months in. I don't want to spoil how this sort of ends for anybody. The FBI. The FBI announced that they had this guy in custody. Nobody had ever heard of him. Nobody knew he'd been operating all over the United States for at least 14 years, probably more. And they asked the public for help in identifying other victims, in locating and identifying other victims. And then they just as quickly pulled this case back from public view. And I could never understand why. So I began the book with the full cooperation of the FBI. And, in fact, one of the agents on the case said to me that he was really surprised because he'd never seen the Bureau in his, like, 26 years there give a journalist such unfettered access to them. And then about halfway through, I got back from one trip to Alaska. He was based up in Alaska. Keys. And the FBI just shut down. What year was this when they shut down with me? Well, the book came out in 2019, so I'm gonna say, like 2017.
- [96:23]
Megyn Kelly
Wow.
- [96:24]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [96:25]
Megyn Kelly
All right, so let's start. It's not exactly the beginning, but let's start with the murder of Samantha, because this. This would be the tripping wire for him.
- [96:35]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [96:37]
Megyn Kelly
She was in what state?
- [96:39]
Maureen Callahan
Alaska.
- [96:39]
Megyn Kelly
She was in Alaska. And she was in one of those little kiosk type things where you buy coffee from. Right. Like, of coffees, some light food.
- [96:45]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [96:46]
Megyn Kelly
And she was working late at night, which, honestly, like no woman should ever do. She shouldn't work alone in a little box that anyone can come up to with a gun and get into, because that's exactly what happened to her. And we actually had that moment where Samantha was working in this little coffee hut. This is from the ABC documentary wild crime. 11 skulls. And he jumps in first. He pulls a gun on her. You can see her back away. And then all the lights go out and he jumps in. Watch. In the video, you can see Samantha
- [97:20]
Maureen Callahan
is closing up for the night in
- [97:22]
Megyn Kelly
the coffee stand, cleaning and wiping things down.
- [97:26]
Maureen Callahan
It's late at night, so there aren't many coffee drinkers that are driving up to the stand.
- [97:32]
Megyn Kelly
And then you can see somebody walking up. You don't see a lot of people just walk up. As people are driving a vehicle, Samantha goes to the window. So she starts making coffee. And she appears to be engaging with the person.
- [97:54]
Narrator/Announcer
At one point, she turns towards the
- [97:56]
Megyn Kelly
window and she reacts. I vividly remember Samantha doing this and putting her hands up.
- [98:09]
Mark Geragos
She then Walks across the coffee stand
- [98:12]
Narrator/Announcer
and turns the lights off. Samantha took the money from the cash register. Then Samantha puts her coat on.
- [98:28]
Megyn Kelly
And then this individual just jumped straight
- [98:32]
Mark Geragos
into the coffee hut.
- [98:37]
Megyn Kelly
That moment, Maureen, she saw the face of evil and she knew it.
- [98:41]
Maureen Callahan
I'll tell you, I. When I was working on the book, I think I watched that tape, the abduction tape. I mean, I watched it many, many, many times, but I. I would go through it frame by frame, frame. Partly because the initial working theory, Samantha was 18 at the time. So she had just turned 18. She was legally an adult. Right. But they decided to treat it like a missing child. Her boyfriend was supposed to pick her up. He was 10 minutes late. He would have been there. I don't know that it would have mattered because Keys like taking people in pairs. And that also distinguished him from many, many other serial killers. Their original theory was that Samantha was in on it, that that was a staged abduction so they.
- [99:27]
Megyn Kelly
So she could get the money, so
- [99:29]
Maureen Callahan
she could get like the $200 that were in the till. And part of this also goes to the ways in which so many assumptions are made about victims of violent crimes. Samantha's father was like Hell's angel. Hell's angel adjacent, had his own brushes with the law. She was from the wrong side of the tracks. She had overcome her own drug issues. And so the theory was she's out partying and that's her accomplice. But when you go frame by frame through that and you stopped right there when Keys jumps in and he is a big guy, he's like at least six, four, very rangy. He jumps like a pretty predator. There's something that's almost like a panther, the way he. Because those kiosks are up off the ground, they're on the side of the road in Alaska. Until Samantha's abduction. Always stuffed by, staffed rather by attractive young girls, often alone. In the summer, they used to make them wear bikinis.
- [100:27]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my God. That's crazy.
- [100:29]
Maureen Callahan
I know.
- [100:29]
Megyn Kelly
Girls do not do this.
- [100:31]
Maureen Callahan
And those were very coveted jobs in Alaska. It was something of a. Of a veneration. It was something of a validation. If you got a job, that meant you were an attractive young woman who could lure of kind customers in.
- [100:41]
Megyn Kelly
I used to worry even my own brother, who, you know, he was. He's five years older than I am, but he used to work in one of those gas station kiosks for his high school job after hours, you know, up until like 11 o' clock at night or whenever they closed. And he was alone and I used to worry about him just being in there alone. You just never know who's going to come through. It's literally everybody comes through a gas station and a female, a young female in Alaska was. Which, like a lot of bad stuff happens in Alaska. It's so isolated. Like, bad people go there to get lost 100%.
- [101:16]
Maureen Callahan
You know, the thing too about that is it doesn't even matter. I think the time was like close to 8 o' clock or 9 o'.
- [101:21]
Narrator/Announcer
Clock.
- [101:22]
Maureen Callahan
You know, in. I was. I was sure to go to Alaska in two distinct times. Once in the dead of summer and once in the dead of winter, because I wanted to experience what those extremes really do to your mind and your body. And we're such animals, you know, like you go in the winter, I mean, you get like two hours of sunlight, if you're lucky, two hours of real sunlight. And it has a depressive feeling, but it also. There's a lot of. It's a lot of darkness. It's a lot of spiritual darkness. It's a lot of psychological darkness. Most people don't know this, but Alaska, more people come from the lower 48 than our natives up there. And they're all people who are running away from something.
- [101:58]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, sorry, Alaska, but it's. I mean, you're the most beautiful state in the union, but you got a of lot, lot of misfits there. Every other Dateline is about something in Alaska. All these crime series like Alaska Wild Alaska, you know, all the. Anyway, so it's no accident Israel Keys found Alaska, but he was from Washington State. Right? Or he, he was. He had been living there.
- [102:18]
Maureen Callahan
That's where he was raised.
- [102:19]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, and it's. You're the one who turned me on to the Bundy book.
- [102:23]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, the Stranger Beside Me.
- [102:25]
Megyn Kelly
There's a lot of parallels there.
- [102:26]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, yeah.
- [102:27]
Megyn Kelly
He was also Washington State and preyed on women. Ey. In Washington State. Like the juxtaposition, both in Alaska and Washington State, for that matter, of like immense beauty and Zen and calmness and nature and almost like godlike territory and evil roaming among it all.
- [102:47]
Maureen Callahan
And you know, the thing about Bundy, which, when Keys was apprehended, he did say that was one of the serial killers that he. He had studied. He did sort of quote unquote admire. Bundy also was interstate. Most serial killers, like if you think of the Gilgo beach killer, you know, they tend to operate in one location. The Zodiac Killer, he was interstate also. But his last major, major spree Bundy's was in Florida. I know we'll probably get to it later, but there is a very famous famous unsolved cold case involving multiple victims in Florida that I firmly believe is the work of Israel Keys.
- [103:31]
Megyn Kelly
So although, unlike Ted Bundy, Israel Keys was not an attractive man.
- [103:35]
Maureen Callahan
Depends on how you look like. Honestly, there were some images where I was like, this guy is kind of attractive. Like, I see it. Yeah.
- [103:45]
Megyn Kelly
In the interrogation video.
- [103:46]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, he looks like nothing in the interrogation.
- [103:48]
Megyn Kelly
You recoil.
- [103:49]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, yeah. No, he's.
- [103:50]
Megyn Kelly
He's.
- [103:51]
Maureen Callahan
All of his power. He did have power. He was the most powerful person in that room. They were never going to solve another case without him. To a point. Once the interrogation gets to five months, six months, Jeff Bell, who is one of the leads, began putting some stuff together, which was remarkable, remarkable detective work. But, you know, the Samantha case, when they caught him, and that was an interstate chase. That was an interstate. Like, he made the mistake of.
- [104:18]
Megyn Kelly
Wait, let's. Before we get there.
- [104:19]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [104:20]
Megyn Kelly
Okay. So Samantha gets kidnapped from the. This coffee kiosk thing late at night. And they're not treating it quite with the urgency they would if, you know, some rich woman in California, you know, had this happen to her. And days go by, and then a ransom note appears on, like, a. A park bulletin board.
- [104:43]
Maureen Callahan
Y.
- [104:43]
Megyn Kelly
And it shows a picture of her holding a newspaper that is dated post the date of. So they know actually this is legit. This is from a person who really has her. And then what happens?
- [104:57]
Maureen Callahan
And then they go to Samantha's father. The kidnapper is demanding, like, $50,000, $60,000. He's already started what would be considered now like a gofundme. The community is donating money. James is not a man of means. And James is firm, frantic. But they say, okay, now is the time to wire the money into this. Into this account. And James says, I don't want to. And then the FBI gets a tip from someone who knows James and says he's acting strangely. He yelled. He yelled at my daughter. Friend of my daughter's, because she was. She made some T shirts, find Samantha, and she's selling them. And James is very upset that we're making money off of that. So now the FBI is. And Anchorage police are really confused because when they door knocked James, he wouldn't let them in the house after Samantha went missing.
- [105:55]
Megyn Kelly
So now he's looking suspicious.
- [105:57]
Maureen Callahan
So now they're looking at him, and they're looking at the boyfriend who has been living with Samantha and James. And they don't know which end is up, but they've Never encountered a parent who is resistant to giving the reward money to the kidnapper who's promising a return.
- [106:15]
Megyn Kelly
Right.
- [106:15]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [106:16]
Megyn Kelly
Well, then they do get money deposited into her account, and the kidnapper starts making withdrawals with her ATM card, which is, by the way, how he gets caught. But who made the deposit into her account?
- [106:31]
Maureen Callahan
James eventually relented, and they said he's going to ask. He's asking for the. This much. We only deposit this much because now we have him, we're in contact, and now it's a negotiation. So that's conversation. He doesn't seem to realize that using this ATM car, they're like five minutes behind him. Every time he withdraws. Every time he withdraws, they're like five minutes behind him. And he knows what he's doing because he knows where all the surveillance cameras are in any given place he's going. He's covered up. You cannot see. It looks like it's a man. You can't really see D.C. then it stops working in Anchorage. The card stops pinging there, and then it starts pinging in New Mexico, in these very tiny towns in New Mexico and up in Alaska. It's like a movie. It's like these FBI agents get word that her card's pinging down there, and they jump out of bed, and they rush to their war room at the FBI field office, and they're calling bank managers in Lordsburg, New Mexico, saying, can you get their car? Can you get there? And the first one they called was like, sorry, I'm sleeping. I'm not getting out of bed for this.
- [107:35]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my. No. It's a serial killer. Well, I guess that was just a suspicion at the time.
- [107:41]
Maureen Callahan
They knew they had someone who abducted this young woman. They still didn't know whether she was in on it or not. It was very suspicious. A guy that sophisticated. If this is a true stranger abduction, they're very rare. So it's easy to see why the theorizing was such that it's the boyfriend, it's the father, she's in on whatever. They, they. They couldn't figure out why he would be using it. It's such an easy mode of detection.
- [108:10]
Megyn Kelly
It's so bold because it's so easy, right, to see. Oh, my God. Her. Her ATM just pinged again. Where? And it is sort of how he got caught, because they. He made the mistake of letting his car get caught on camera at one of the locations. Right. And so they saw what kind of makes, model, et cetera, of car and maybe even a license plate I'm trying to remember. But they. They tracked that car, and that's how they found him.
- [108:37]
Maureen Callahan
This was also incredible police work. And this is where the Texas Rangers come in. And these guys are such badasses. They're just like. Like Jeff Bell, who is one of the main guys in Alaska. He's a. He's. I think he's from the Northeast maybe originally, I don't know. But he was like when he went down to Texas and met the Texas Ranger who led that manhunt that caught Keys, which was a very cinematic event because Keys was driving the most commonly rented vehicle in the United States of America. So it really was needle in a haystack. He was like, oh, my God, this is a Texas Ranger, just like in the movies. Like a real badass, you know?
- [109:14]
Megyn Kelly
Right.
- [109:14]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [109:15]
Megyn Kelly
So they track him down, they arrested him, and they found incriminating materials in his car. Like it was kind of Bob's your uncle. Once they found him, he was not banking on cops pulling. Pulling him over.
- [109:27]
Narrator/Announcer
No.
- [109:28]
Megyn Kelly
And so then they bring him in for this interrogation. Now, who does the interrogation? Like, is it the feds? Is it the Jeff Bell of the Washington.
- [109:38]
Maureen Callahan
Well, first it's Steve Ranger, Steve Rayburn, since retired, and an FBI agent named Deb Gannaway, who was looped in very quickly as all of this was unfolding in a very kinetic, moment by moment fashion. And Steve Rayburn told me that they were so caught off guard that they didn't even have like a two way radio, like a two way audio system set up in their interrogation room. So they had to go to Target and buy a baby monitor.
- [110:08]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, no. So people could listen to it outside of the room.
- [110:11]
Maureen Callahan
Yes.
- [110:11]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh.
- [110:12]
Maureen Callahan
Like, this is how MacGyverish. And like they. And they had no idea who they were dealing with. They really didn't. They knew he was dangerous. They knew he had the. This woman. The lead agent on the case, Steve Payne, even in that moment, he's up in Alaska sitting at a car at one of these coffee kiosks, and he's the one agent on this case who has been holding out hope that Samantha is alive. Jeff Bell. Jeff Bell took one look at that ransom note with the proof of life photo of Samantha. She's looking at the camera dead center with the print. And he took one look at that and said, she's dead.
- [110:47]
Megyn Kelly
How. How did he know that?
- [110:50]
Maureen Callahan
I don't know if he was just more dialed into the realities of what he factually was seeing or if there was something unnatural that he picked up on, you know, Steve, by his own admission, did not want to believe it. He knew he was in denial about it. And even the search of his car. Car was like a. It was a multi state mess because he's up there worried that if, if they go into that car without the proper, I mean, what's the word for thank you? Or they have probable costs, then everything they find, even if Samantha's body is in there, is thrown out like it can't, can't get in.
- [111:32]
Megyn Kelly
Yep.
- [111:32]
Maureen Callahan
But Deb says to Steve, down here in Texas, we have, have a much looser interpretation of this. And if we've got a bad guy,
- [111:41]
Megyn Kelly
good old Texas, and we think he's
- [111:42]
Maureen Callahan
got bad going on in his car, we can go into his car.
- [111:46]
Megyn Kelly
Here we have some of this. This is from the ABC doc Wild Crime. And it's dash cam footage from the moment that investigators decided to do a warrantless search on Keys's car. Here it is. When we open the trunk and the Ranger started going through things and the trunk of the car.
- [112:06]
Mark Geragos
There you go.
- [112:07]
Narrator/Announcer
Hey.
- [112:09]
Mark Geragos
Gray hoodie with glasses in a pocket
- [112:13]
Megyn Kelly
and gloves and a mask. We found a gray hoodie that appeared to be the same hoodie that the perpetrator had been wearing in the ATM videos. And in the pocket of that was, was this gray piece of cloth that looked like a mask. We also found the amber shooting glasses. We got our gun. Sir, you're under arrest. After he was put under arrest, he was transported to the Lufkin Police Department. The Ranger and I do a thorough search of Israel's wallet and we found Samantha's ATM card. Samantha's cell phone was in the car. I mean, that's just devastating from a criminal standpoint. That's everything you need. You've got the victim's cell phone, you've got her license, and you've got his disguise that he was wearing all the times and he was making the withdrawals with her age. ATM card. Really strong, very strong.
- [113:25]
Maureen Callahan
But they don't have a body and
- [113:27]
Megyn Kelly
they don't know whether she's dead and
- [113:29]
Maureen Callahan
they don't even know whether she's dead or alive. So they need a confession from him. He is taken to Lufkin PD down in Texas. Again, small town, these small towns he's operating in. And they try to talk to him and he says, I'm sorry, I can't help you. So then they call up to a Alaska and Jeff Bell and his partner, his then partner on this case, Mickey Dahl, who is this sort of very Glamorous young, beautiful detective who had just joined homicide. She spent like 10 years doing drugs
- [114:03]
Megyn Kelly
as a police officer.
- [114:04]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, sorry. Yeah, undercover on narcotics. But so they jump on a plane and they go down there and they're so wired and, and they're so like dying to talk to this guy. And they get in there and keys kind of lights up a bit because now he's got the attentions of this beautiful young detective and it becomes this sort of almost like a. I talk about it in the book. It's like a Clarice Starling, Hannibal Lecter kind of dynamic, you know, but he won't talk to them either. And so they have to extradite him up to Alaska. And this is all like the TikTok is really, it's so pressing because at a place like Lufkin, as would prove true even in Anchorage, they did not have the wherewithal to really contain this guy. Like this guy was such a predator and so dangerous, such a genius, completely self taught. This guy did not have formal schooling at all, at all. And he taught himself how to hunt and kill. And so they get him back up to Alaska and that's when it was really starts clicking in because they know Samantha's dead. They've gone to the house he shares with his living girlfriend, a travel nurse and his 10 year old daughter. By all accounts, he is an incredible father.
- [115:18]
Megyn Kelly
It's crazy.
- [115:19]
Maureen Callahan
And they toss the house and they're looking, they're looking for Samantha. They can't find her. There's a shed on the property.
- [115:25]
Megyn Kelly
This is before or after he's confessed?
- [115:27]
Maureen Callahan
He hasn't confessed to anything.
- [115:28]
Megyn Kelly
He hasn't. Okay, so they're just doing a search of his property because he's under arrest
- [115:33]
Maureen Callahan
and there's a, there are two sheds on his property and they physically remove a shed from the property and they bring it to the FBI field office where they leave it. And then. So the fight begins now as to who's going to lead this interrogation because they all know this is a big, big case and this is a career maker, this is a star maker. If you have your eyes on becoming like a legal analyst on CNN or like, you know, they're going to make a movie out of this case. Who's going to play you? The egos start coming into play and Steve and Jeff are, Steve Payne and Jeff Bell are the most experienced and they're gaming out how they're going to talk to this guy. They have zero. They really don't have much evidence. They don't have that footage of him. He's unrecognizable in that surveillance clip of him abducting Samantha.
- [116:23]
Megyn Kelly
Sure.
- [116:23]
Maureen Callahan
A couple of items are in his car, but he says, she gave them to me. I was her dealer. She owed me money. Prove it. Prove I took her. You don't have anything. He was an expert at leaving no physical evidence behind. So you have to have very experienced detectives go in there or agents go in there. Who can say? Like, Steve's favorite tactic was to like, he would say, some people like to go in with, like, boxes full of paper. It's all blank paper. Oh, we have all this shit on you. We've got all these photos. And you may as well just give it to us now before we like, really, really throw you away forever. And Steve, his whole thing was like, less is more. One photo. That's just the tip of what we've got on you. It's a whole mind game. And the federal prosecutor on this case comes in and he sees what this case could be and he says to them, I'm leading this investigation now. I'm questioning this suspect.
- [117:17]
Megyn Kelly
What, that's so rare?
- [117:18]
Maureen Callahan
I'm in charge. He's white collar, Megan. He's never dealt with minority.
- [117:22]
Megyn Kelly
Nor do they usually have the investigation.
- [117:24]
Maureen Callahan
Life.
- [117:25]
Megyn Kelly
Be the prosecutor.
- [117:26]
Maureen Callahan
You can't. Right. Because if this goes to trial, now the prosecutor is also a witness and
- [117:30]
Megyn Kelly
now he's got to testify.
- [117:31]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah. Can't happen. But this is. This is how wild it is up there. It's so funny. The twin poles of this case are Alaska and Texas, like two states with this psyche which is like, don't tell me what to do. Do it my way, you know, Fine, to a point. Not when you've got like, what will become the most high value value, like suspect in federal custody. Like, only Jeffrey Epstein exceeds the sky in terms of like, the threat he posed even behind bars.
- [118:02]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, so he does confess. We have video of. So we've only titled it FBI interview. So I don't know who, which interrogators these are, but you'll tell us after watch set 53 in which he does admit to killing Samantha Koenig. Here it is.
- [118:21]
Mark Geragos
He directed us north out of Anchorage towards the Matanuska Valley. How many yards off the Jordan Wynter? Feet off the strength there. And he pointed to a spot on the lake. And what should they look for specifically?
- [118:42]
Megyn Kelly
Ice fishing spot. Was it a hole that you cut or was the hole there?
- [118:51]
Narrator/Announcer
No, it was a hole I cut. You'll.
- [118:55]
Mark Geragos
You'll see it you'll see where the hole was?
- [118:57]
Megyn Kelly
Probably. I don't imagine there's not very much snow up there.
- [119:02]
Narrator/Announcer
And Israel Keys said that is where we would find Samantha Cony.
- [119:08]
Maureen Callahan
She's not wrapped up or anything, but
- [119:10]
Mark Geragos
there will still be some blood on ice.
- [119:14]
Megyn Kelly
They going to find anything else out there? Oh, you'll find her DNA.
- [119:18]
Mark Geragos
Okay.
- [119:21]
Maureen Callahan
You'll probably. You'll find her.
- [119:23]
Narrator/Announcer
My DNA on her.
- [119:25]
Megyn Kelly
She been that very long.
- [119:26]
Narrator/Announcer
So.
- [119:32]
Megyn Kelly
The one thing I do need to
- [119:33]
Narrator/Announcer
know is how you killed her. Why?
- [119:38]
Mark Geragos
I mean, it doesn't really matter how it happened. I'm saying that, yes, I was responsible
- [119:44]
Maureen Callahan
and yes, I told you where she is.
- [119:48]
Mark Geragos
So you killed her. Yes.
- [119:54]
Maureen Callahan
Okay. Several things about that clip. We are looking at you, Jeff Bell, who was one of the lead guys, and then that voice in there that says, I need you to tell me why you killed her. That's Kevin Feldis. That's the prosecutor who bigfooted this case. That's not a question you ever ask a suspect like that. It doesn't matter what you need. I need to know. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I think these little things were tells. Now that's he's telling them where he put her remains. He had her in his. After he murdered her.
- [120:26]
Megyn Kelly
Like, steps away from the home in which his daughter was living.
- [120:29]
Maureen Callahan
Yes. And girlfriend was packing for their trip the next day. They were going on vacation for two weeks. So she's out in the shed for two weeks. He left her there. And when they asked him about it, they said, weren't you worried? And he said, was I worried? Like, it's like 10 degrees in Alaska. No, the body's gonna freeze.
- [120:50]
Mark Geragos
It'll be.
- [120:50]
Maureen Callahan
Be fine. But they took the wrong shed. When they arrested him, they took another shed that he just used as a shed. He was a contractor. They didn't look inside. And there were a lot of mistakes on this case. A lot. A lot of big ones. The confession which is in American Predator, the text of the entire confession, the FBI has never made that public. I had to get that through someone very, very close to the case. But it's in none of the records that have been made public. The audio of it doesn't exist. They've tried to bury it. It's a confession in two parts. And it's broken up because, one, it went on so long. But two, Feldus was in real danger of tipping their hand that they had nothing, that they had no evidence. And once you lose that power, you can't get it back. Third, keys Originally spoke to them on the promise that he would not get the death penalty. They broke midday, came back to finish the confession, and he said he would only finish the confession if they promised to give him the death penalty.
- [121:58]
Megyn Kelly
Right. That's so strange. We don't know what explained the flip, the switch.
- [122:04]
Maureen Callahan
I think his mother spoke to me for the book. She's never spoken before since. She said when she saw the footage of Keys getting arrested in Texas, she knew that he knew his life was over, that that was it.
- [122:17]
Megyn Kelly
Yep.
- [122:18]
Maureen Callahan
She knew he was a killer, by the way.
- [122:20]
Megyn Kelly
What?
- [122:20]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, she knew he was a killer.
- [122:21]
Megyn Kelly
How? From the cat and the animals.
- [122:24]
Maureen Callahan
Well, the cat, the animals. She and her husband kicked him out of the home. He was about 14. He was breaking and entering. He was gun running. He had this habit, bit of. He would break into people's homes and move their furniture around, and then he would go outside and like peep and wait for them to come home and look through the windows and watch how freaked out they were. You know, he. He was. He was a budding, budding, budding serial killer. And she told me, she said, oh, the FBI thinks Israel first killed in this date. And I know his first kill was much earlier.
- [122:57]
Narrator/Announcer
Whoa.
- [122:58]
Megyn Kelly
Okay. Okay, great. Could you be more specific? Why don't you.
- [123:01]
Maureen Callahan
You call the FBI with that information?
- [123:03]
Megyn Kelly
Well, and he, he said something like, it. It became apparent to me at a young age that the things I thought were okay, no one else thought was okay, and like, I was different from the others. And it really does go to like, is the serial killer born? Is it, you know, nature, nurture, right? Do you arrive here in the. In the crib as a little psychopath and no matter what happens, that's what you're going to be? Or do you have to be subjected to some amount of torture and neglect and so on as an infant in order to get there? Do we know the answer to that in his case?
- [123:37]
Maureen Callahan
It's a tantalizing philosophical, neurological, behavioral question that hangs over the book. And I spoke to a guy named Roy Hazelwood who has since died. He was like the godfather of criminal profiling in the Fox FBI godfather. And I asked him that and he laughed. And he said, I was waiting for how long it was gonna take for you to ask me. Everyone wants to know. And he said, we don't know. He said, the youngest incidence of psychopathy I've ever encountered was in a two year old.
- [124:07]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, gosh.
- [124:09]
Maureen Callahan
Who was self harming in a sort of psychosexual way. But he said, we don't know. You know, Keith was one of 10 siblings. They all suffered abuse and neglect at the hands of the parents. All of them?
- [124:21]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, boy.
- [124:22]
Maureen Callahan
Only one turned out like this, so I don't know.
- [124:24]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I don't know either. I wish we did. Okay, so let's keep going. So he gives that confession about. Do we know how many days he had Samantha before he killed her?
- [124:34]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, he only had her for hours.
- [124:36]
Megyn Kelly
How did he get the paper? That was post the abduction in the photo.
- [124:40]
Maureen Callahan
I think he had saved it. He had saved it. And how he made her look alive.
- [124:45]
Megyn Kelly
So she was dead in the photo, and he made it look alive.
- [124:48]
Maureen Callahan
Steph was right. She was dead in that photo.
- [124:50]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh.
- [124:52]
Maureen Callahan
So he took. He was an avid outdoorsman, also an ultra marathoner who was hunting in national parks and the like. But he took fishing wire and sewed her eyes open.
- [125:06]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh.
- [125:07]
Maureen Callahan
And then put makeup on her. He took his girlfriend's makeup.
- [125:11]
Megyn Kelly
This is a very.
- [125:11]
Maureen Callahan
Makeup on her.
- [125:12]
Megyn Kelly
Sick person.
- [125:13]
Maureen Callahan
And that was the proof of life photo.
- [125:15]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, so at what point did the cops start to glean there's more than one?
- [125:22]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, once he starts talking about Samantha, they know the detail, the affect, the flat, matter of fact way of communicating this. We're negotiating now. We're demanding the death penalty. We're demanding. It's off the table. On the table. This is someone who's very interested in power and control, and it's not the first time he's done it. And in fact, Jeff told me that when he and Mickey Dahl first walked into that police station in Lufkin, into that interrogation room, he said the hairs on the back of his neck stood up before they even said a word to him. They knew. They knew.
- [125:59]
Megyn Kelly
I think that's right. I do think when you're in the presence of true evil, you know, it's a different energy. It's just a, you know, vibe shift, as the kids say. But it's really. I mean, you'd like to believe that, you know, you'd like to know that when you're around somebody who's truly evil, you'd have that response with the hair, you know?
- [126:16]
Maureen Callahan
Well, now they. That. That totally tracked to me because he's in custody. They know he took Samantha. Jeff knows she's dead in his bones. He knows it. But he was very, very, very good at wearing a mask in real life. I mean, the irony is that where he and his girlfriend live, it was. It's in a suburb called Turnagain in Anchorage. And it is a neighborhood heavily populated with judges, federal prosecutors, lawyers. And he was the contractor on all of their homes. And so many of the people they interviewed after they apprehended him were like, he had the keys to my house. And when we were away, we'd be like, go in and do all the renovations. We trusted him.
- [126:59]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh. Can you. Can you imagine finding out that a serial killer had been in your house regularly working on your kitchen? So the next murders that he confessed to. Right. Are really the only other murders that he owned, Correct? That the husband and wife he fully owned.
- [127:17]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [127:18]
Megyn Kelly
Across the country in Vermont. So tell us about that couple.
- [127:23]
Maureen Callahan
This is so wild. And it's also interesting how they got this confession, because they know he's a serial natural. They know it. So they're like, okay, you want the death penalty, you gotta give us something else. We can't go to the feds and say, you're getting it for one. You have to have give us more. And he says, okay, he says, I'll give you two bodies and a name. And he says, I need you to get a map and I need you to pull it up for me. So now we're in Vermont. And he begins with where he dug up his kill kit. So he's got these kill kits buried all over the country, and they're still out there. They're five gallon Home Depot buckets that he filled with cash. He was a bank robber. Only used cash when he was committing crimes. Zip ties, guns, ammo, and Drano to accelerate human decomposition.
- [128:15]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my.
- [128:17]
Maureen Callahan
So then what he would do is he would start walking around and look. Looking for people to take. That's what he called it. Taking people. And he was out this night in Vermont. He was. He was on a family trip.
- [128:30]
Megyn Kelly
Was this after? No, it must have been before. It had to be before because she was his last.
- [128:34]
Maureen Callahan
She's his last known victim, which is very important. Not as. Definitely not his last one.
- [128:40]
Megyn Kelly
So he.
- [128:44]
Maureen Callahan
It's a rainy night. This is his own self report. He's staying in, like a holiday in or something. He goes out and he's looking for someone to take, and he comes upon this apartment complex and this car is pulling in this little like VW bug. And he likes this. And this guy gets out and puts. It's raining. And he puts his newspaper over his head and he's trying to rush into his apartment complex and Keys is right behind him. Unbeknownst to the guy. And the way Keys described it, he. His arm went like this behind the Guy like that, like, he just missed him. He was just about to take him,
- [129:20]
Megyn Kelly
like, reaching forward and missing.
- [129:22]
Maureen Callahan
And he said, that guy has no idea. Because if he had been like one second slower, he would have gotten it that night. He would have been the one. I mean, he had no victim profile. He would take anybody. And when I say take, he would abduct, rape, torture, and murder. And so he was bisexual. He was always, like. Like they call it practicing the parlances, like on sex workers, you know? Anyway, so he goes. He goes back to his hotel, waits for the rain to stop. Then it's like midnight. He goes back out his own self report. He comes upon this house. It's a suburban. It's. It's like a flat, single story. He sees in the yard. There is no indication of dogs or kids. He says, I won't go near kids since having my daughter. Now. Now you sort of see where he's beginning to realize he's going to be in the pantheon, you know, he says he doesn't want anybody to know he exists, but he does. This is the kind of thing the fictional character Dexter would say, like, I'm a serial killer with a code, you know.
- [130:24]
Megyn Kelly
Yep.
- [130:24]
Maureen Callahan
I don't touch kids. Give me a gold star. He did touch kids. So he decides he's going to cut the phone in line to see if an alarm goes off, which it does not. He smashes his way in. As a contractor, he's pretty confident he knows the layout. There's an older couple living there named Bill and Lorraine Currier. They are older, they are overweight, they are sickly, they have medication. They have a bird in the house. And this was one of the more chilling details that law enforcement told me. When he goes in, they have this huge bird. I forget whether it was a package or something. But the bird cage, which was like 6ft, had the COVID over it so it could sleep at night. So it's almost like a shroud of death is already there. And he said from breaking the window pane on the back door to gain access to the house and tying the two of them up, like, hogtied on the bed six seconds. And the FBI did it. And they figured out he did it in six seconds. He did. He took them from the house. Took them from the house in their car.
- [131:30]
Megyn Kelly
I just asked you because. Yeah, I saw how they look and. Yes, tracks exactly with what you said. And they look to me helpless.
- [131:37]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [131:37]
Megyn Kelly
Like even, you know, in their nice, you know, picture predating this terrible event, they looked completely helpless, completely Harmless. So that he still got a jones from that. Like he got a jones from capturing and killing people who posed absolutely no threat or climate. Conquest to him.
- [131:54]
Maureen Callahan
I think in his mind it was a conquest because it was a strange house. He didn't know how many people would be in. He could guess it would be two, probably a married couple. But he's breaking into their house in the middle of the night as a stranger. And he's not just gonna kill them in their home, he's gonna abduct them and he's gonna move them to a second location that he had staked out like a day prior.
- [132:18]
Megyn Kelly
And nobody saw any of it.
- [132:19]
Maureen Callahan
Nobody saw a thing. Dead of night.
- [132:22]
Megyn Kelly
We don't know if they were screaming. I mean, he probably.
- [132:24]
Maureen Callahan
He had them gagged, okay?
- [132:25]
Megyn Kelly
So he gets them in the car, he moves them to some dilapidated looking
- [132:29]
Maureen Callahan
like farmhouse, deserted farmhouse, falling apart.
- [132:33]
Megyn Kelly
And then he. He kills them both. He, the, the husband tried to fight for his wife.
- [132:37]
Maureen Callahan
He did. He separated them both. He put the husband in the basement, tied up, and then he brought the wife to the second floor and he raped her up there.
- [132:53]
Megyn Kelly
Older woman.
- [132:54]
Maureen Callahan
Older woman. He had an issue. He had a lot of rage at his mother. A lot of rage. And this goes into his taking of people in pairs and mothers and children and. And then he brought Lorraine. No, no, no. Then he hears from upstairs, Bill Currier in the basement is making a lot of noise. He's a big guy. He's a former army veteran. He's an army veteran and he's trying to break free. And he's like shouting for his wife and leave my wife alone. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Keys. Goes down there and he shoots him dead. Shoots him dead. And this angry angers him because that was not in the plan. He wanted to strangle Bill. He wanted it to be personal. He wanted it to be that violent. And it takes a long time to strangle somebody to death. It's not like in the movies. It takes a long time. It takes a lot of force. So then he's infuriated, but Lorraine has begun to run. She's gotten out of the house and she's running towards the highway again. It's like three or four in the morning. It's desolate out there. And he catches her. He catches her and he brings her down to the basement where he shows her her husband and then he strangles her to death.
- [134:11]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, that is sick.
- [134:12]
Maureen Callahan
And then he leaves them in the basement. He leaves the bodies in the basement. He's running out of time, the sun is coming up. Normally what he would do would be to move the bodies across state lines. So you make it multi state, you make it very difficult to track. But he's gotta go. And he figures this house is a tear down. So anybody who buys this property, it's going to be a developer, they're going to tear down the house and the animals will get to the bodies before any of this even happens.
- [134:43]
Megyn Kelly
He was right.
- [134:44]
Maureen Callahan
He was right.
- [134:45]
Megyn Kelly
Well, I don't know about the animals, but they show that the house gets torn down, it gets dumped in a landfill. No one's walked through and seen two corpses or skeletons. Nope. They went to the landfill, the police and searched it trying to find any remnants, didn't. So their remains have never been found.
- [135:08]
Maureen Callahan
They're not even classified as murdered, they're classified as missing, even after a confession.
- [135:15]
Megyn Kelly
Speaking of which, let's play some of it. Here is keys admitting to killing Bill and Lorraine Courier shovel in the basement
- [135:24]
Narrator/Announcer
and hit him with that a couple times. Grabbed the 1022.
- [135:34]
Megyn Kelly
He saw it again and he started to say something and it just pissed
- [135:38]
Maureen Callahan
me off and I just started pulling the trigger.
- [135:44]
Mark Geragos
I pulled as fast as I could
- [135:45]
Megyn Kelly
until the magazine was empty.
- [135:52]
Narrator/Announcer
After he killed Bill, he tells us that he rapes Lorraine Carrier. He rapes her multiple times.
- [136:04]
Mark Geragos
And he said he took Lorraine downstairs
- [136:06]
Narrator/Announcer
and Bill's obviously deceased on the floor. He describes killing her and then using contractor bags to put their bodies in. In the basement of that house, the
- [136:21]
Maureen Callahan
bodies were completely covered and they were underneath a lot of debris that I
- [136:26]
Narrator/Announcer
piled on top of them like wood and trash.
- [136:32]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, just like the callousness is shocking. Not that you expect a killer to like respectfully dispose of the remains, but in garbage bags underneath a bunch of garbage left for the animals. Animals just like zero humanity in him.
- [136:46]
Maureen Callahan
Nothing, nothing. And you know, with recovering Samantha's remains, you know, he dismembered her and he just put the limbs and the head in the water. And I spoke to the lead on the dive team who led that recovery.
- [137:05]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, God.
- [137:06]
Maureen Callahan
And the two divers who recovered Samantha, his remains. And the lead diver, the lead, Bobby Chacon. He's retired now. He has PTSD and he has a therapy dog. And he talks about this case because it's instructive for members of law enforcement. They should know about it. But that recovery, he said, was among the most brutal. And they see a lot of things no one should ever see. And in fact, what they do, these tough, tough, tough guys. Bobby sent me these drawings. They did and especially after recovering children, the divers will often, their beautiful drawings will draw images of themselves. And they have all their dive gear on and their helmets on, but they have angel wings on. And they're always holding the victim intact, bringing them up. But while they're always bringing them out of water, it's also sort of an ascension into a heavenly place of rest, you know, and that's how they manage special, special people who do this work.
- [138:14]
Megyn Kelly
Like, you think about them, right? It's like when you're doing your job and you have a bad day and I think, oh, this is tough. Oh my gosh. And you remember how tough, actual hard working people with really difficult, difficult jobs have to spend their days. I. And I think about it all the time with child sexual abuse material like there are. And, and that really does change people. It changes them, men in particular, who have to spend their days chasing the most vile among us, having to look. And they have to look at the images because they've got to go after. They got to make a case against these people. And I've heard so many on different podcasts and so on, just talking about what it does to you, like it deadens your soul. Most don't last that long. This is just. How can you spend your day doing that?
- [138:55]
Maureen Callahan
No, I know. To expose that level of darkness and things that most people would never even think of.
- [139:04]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [139:10]
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- [140:08]
Dan Cummins
If you're into the weird, the wild, and the downright bizarre, check out my podcast, Time Suck. Each week, I dive into shocking stories like the rise of the next Nexium cult, the origins of conspiracies like QAnon and the San Francisco witch killer murders. With deep dives and dark humor, Time Suck brings you the stories that'll fascinate you, make you laugh, and fill your head with lots of strange facts. New episodes drop every Monday. Join the cult of the curious. Follow Time Suck wherever you get your podcasts.
- [140:36]
Megyn Kelly
So Keys admits to this double murder of Bill and Lorraine. They know he killed Samantha. But then a weird thing happens in the interrogation where they want him to say more, but he's suddenly coy, and now he doesn't want to, like, give it up. And there's a moment in the investigation, this is from July of 2012, where he kind of objects to giving them any more. And it's sort of odd. Please explain this to me. It. It's sat 60.
- [141:10]
Narrator/Announcer
I just think at this point, I
- [141:16]
Maureen Callahan
kind of feel like I'm in the
- [141:17]
Megyn Kelly
position where I've given you a certain amount of information.
- [141:22]
Maureen Callahan
None of it has, or I shouldn't
- [141:24]
Narrator/Announcer
say none of it. About half of what
- [141:30]
Megyn Kelly
I thought we
- [141:31]
Maureen Callahan
had an understanding on, you know, from the very beginning, hasn't worked out in my favor.
- [141:38]
Mark Geragos
Granted, you know, some things haven't worked
- [141:40]
Megyn Kelly
out in your favor, but I just
- [141:44]
Narrator/Announcer
think at this point, I just don't
- [141:46]
Maureen Callahan
see what incentive I have to tell you anything else.
- [141:54]
Megyn Kelly
What does he mean, it hasn't worked out in my favor?
- [141:57]
Maureen Callahan
He wanted the death penalty, and he wanted it really fast.
- [142:00]
Megyn Kelly
How long was this series of interviews?
- [142:04]
Maureen Callahan
So they started March, April, and they went till about. He really began shutting down, I'm going to say right around there. July, July, August, he tried to kill himself in prison, and it wasn't successful. And so there's so much secrecy surrounding this case, and I have theories as to why it's not just about a federal prosecutor who was too big for his britches. It's not that. But Jeff Bell. Jeff Bell went. He would go over every day to the prison, the jail, rather, to see they didn't have anything remotely secure enough for a guy like this. He never should have been up there. He should have been in a supermax.
- [142:46]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [142:47]
Maureen Callahan
He went over there every day to see if Israel wanted to talk. Every day. And he went. So Israel almost escaped from court. Very Ted Bundy. Like, remember when Ted Bundy.
- [142:58]
Megyn Kelly
Yes.
- [142:59]
Maureen Callahan
Okay. This. This footage has been scrubbed from the Internet. Fox had the footage from inside the courtroom. Keys, shackled, ankles, wrists. Samantha's father is in the courtroom. Everyone's in the courtroom. Keys, suddenly, in the middle of the hearing, leaps up out of his chair. He's out of his shackles, and he's just jumping like what do you call those rows? I think of them as pews from church, but in a courthouse. He's jumping from, like, benches top to top to top to top. Before, like, he's tased. He's jumped and he's tased. He almost got away. He was tased. He seemed to very much enjoy the tasing. But how did he do it? How did he do it? Well, he took. He would get a little baggy lunch every day before going over to court, and he took the self that wrapped the sandwich and he fashioned little keys out of that thing and he used it to come on. Yes, yes. And so Jeff would go over there and he would be like, stop giving this guy anything. Take away his shoelaces. Why does he have subscriptions to magazines like Outside Adventurer? What's going on in here? They could never get an answer. They could never get an answer.
- [144:15]
Megyn Kelly
He was just so clever. He fooled everybody. That's an advantage, right? When you're a killer who's very smart and you're smarter than your jailers, maybe than the cops, some of them.
- [144:24]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [144:24]
Megyn Kelly
So notwithstanding his lamentation that he wasn't getting put to death fast enough, he hadn't had a trial or anything. I don't know how he thought the system worked. They were figuring out that he was responsible for more than just those three murders.
- [144:39]
Maureen Callahan
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [144:41]
Megyn Kelly
Go ahead.
- [144:42]
Maureen Callahan
The other thing that I'm remembering now that was stalling him up, this is, this is like the, the lawyer in you will appreciate. So his defender, his public defender is this guy named Rich Kirtner, who is a great lawyer. Great lawyer. He's also very anti death penalty.
- [145:00]
Megyn Kelly
So there's a man who enters this story named Richard Kirk. What's, what's his story?
- [145:05]
Maureen Callahan
So he's assigned to Keys the moment Keys is arrested. He is Keys's public defender. Okay. Keys can afford a lawyer, so he says, because all of his cash is tied up in kill kits all over the United States, you know. So anyway, Rich takes this case, and Rich is way into this case. And I, I talked to Rich at his office in Anchorage, and he was like, I really liked Israel.
- [145:26]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh.
- [145:27]
Maureen Callahan
I know Rich.
- [145:28]
Megyn Kelly
I said, you got to get out more seriously.
- [145:31]
Maureen Callahan
He's like, I liked him, but he, he, he would not. The minute he said, I want the death penalty, Rich was like, well, I'm not arguing for that because I'm anti death penalty and I won't do it. And so now he's got a court appointed lawyer that he can't get out from under who won't advocate for what he wants. And the FBI is trying to get, get, get him what he wants, but it's not moving that quickly and they can't get any traction anywhere.
- [145:57]
Megyn Kelly
Okay. But they do figure out it's more than these three.
- [146:01]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, yeah.
- [146:02]
Megyn Kelly
So how did they do that?
- [146:03]
Maureen Callahan
They asked him. They said, how many people did you kill? They just, just asked him and he said, well, less than 12. And Steve Payne always thought that was a weird number. Yeah, because most people go by fives and tens. Right. Like you round up to a five or a ten.
- [146:19]
Megyn Kelly
What does that even mean? Like less than 12.
- [146:23]
Maureen Callahan
That's a great point. Right. Like what does that mean? But Steve took it to mean 12, like 11 or 12. And. But I talk to people on the case who think it was way more than that, and I definitely think it was way more than that.
- [146:40]
Megyn Kelly
And do we know who they are? Like you mentioned something in Florida.
- [146:43]
Maureen Callahan
We know some of them. We know some of them. There are some cold cases I lay out in the book that I definitely believe are the work of keys. Absolutely. A 12 year old Paralympian in Colville, Washington, where Keyes lived, very, very small town. Went missing when Keys was a very young man.
- [147:03]
Megyn Kelly
He was like 14.
- [147:04]
Maureen Callahan
And this girl was 12, maybe 19. Her body was later found with her feet. Her prosthetic feet were far away from her remains. But she was seen. She knew him. She knew him. She knew him.
- [147:21]
Megyn Kelly
So it's not true that he didn't kill children, to your point?
- [147:24]
Maureen Callahan
Absolutely. And there was another 12 year old girl who was murdered with her mother. And I think that was Keys as well. In Colville as well. There's a man named Jimmy Tidwell who went missing in Texas after Samantha was taken while Keys was still on the loose. I go into all of the evidence as to Jeff Bell knows it's Jimmy too. He won't say it publicly, but we talked about it after the book came out. After American Predator came out, I got an email from a woman who said, your book came to me through a circuitous route. I am Jimmy Tidwell's niece. We have never been able to get an answer from either local law enforcement or the FBI. But now we know what happened to him. So thank you.
- [148:10]
Megyn Kelly
Wow.
- [148:11]
Maureen Callahan
There is a very famous case I'm obsessed with in Florida called the boat murders. There was a man in Boca Raton who was targeting women at the mall. Upscale luxury mall, broad daylight. First victim, she is going to her vehicle with her toddler son and she's Loading up the back of the car. Honestly, Megan, after writing this book, I don't move through the world the same way at all. Like, I will never. My head is on a swivel in life like a garage. He. He comes up to her and he's got a gun, and he's like, get in the back of the car. Get your kid in the back of the car. Takes the car, starts driving them all over.
- [148:53]
Megyn Kelly
Never do it, by the way, to listening audience.
- [148:55]
Maureen Callahan
Never let them take you to a second location.
- [148:57]
Megyn Kelly
And that would qualify as a second location. Like from the parking lot into your car to go someplace, run, run, run, run. You have much better chance of surviving. He's probably not going to shoot you. He's probably not scream. The difficult victims, they just kind of let him go. But I'd rather somebody take a shot at me while I'm serpentine tining away than have me in the car, you
- [149:15]
Maureen Callahan
know, though, what the thing is, and. And he. He understood the psychology of this. If you are like the home invasion with the couriers, you know, when you're awoken, startled in the middle of the night, and it's like, it takes you a minute to be like, am I awake?
- [149:28]
Megyn Kelly
Yes.
- [149:28]
Maureen Callahan
You know, like, he's capitalizing on those five seconds of, like, orienting yourself.
- [149:33]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [149:33]
Maureen Callahan
And so then who's gonna believe a stranger's in your house on top? You know?
- [149:36]
Megyn Kelly
I know.
- [149:37]
Maureen Callahan
So he. He's this woman with her little child.
- [149:40]
Megyn Kelly
Don't comply.
- [149:41]
Maureen Callahan
He's got his gun in her back, and he's like, get the car. It's like, she probably couldn't even take that minute. Totally, you know.
- [149:47]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, I don't judge her.
- [149:48]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, I know you're not.
- [149:48]
Megyn Kelly
But for the people listening.
- [149:49]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah, no, absolutely.
- [149:50]
Megyn Kelly
Don't comply.
- [149:51]
Maureen Callahan
You're absolutely. You're absolutely right.
- [149:53]
Megyn Kelly
And you do it. Especially if you have a child with you. You're like, I'll do anything to protect my child. That thing is to run away. That's what that thing is.
- [149:59]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah, yeah. So. So they get in the car and he starts driving out and. And all around Boca Raton. And she is terrified, and her child begins to cry. Cry. And she's worried that the crying is going to just infuriate him further. And she just keeps talking to him. She just keeps talking. Samantha tried this too. It was really smart. Humanize yourself. You don't want to be doing this. Right. Like, we can end this. Like, you know, he does let them go. He lets them go. He drives them back and he lets them go. The other victims weren't so lucky. Another mother and daughter were found in the that mall tied up in their car. Zip ties. There was a woman who was also. The witnesses saw this happen. This is how she was discovered. She was driving a Jeep. Well, very well to do. Woman, married, middle aged. And the jeep just starts going, just erratically. It's like slowing down, but it's going erratically. And then the driver's side door opens and she falls out. So that means there's someone in the passenger side who pushed her out of the car. So when the, when the police and FBI arrived at the scene at the mall with the woman and her 8 year old daughter who were tied up and murdered, they were like. This is as unique as a fingerprint, this MO and it matches keys. Now, Jane Doe, the woman who survived with toddler spoke to Dateline. She has never given her real identity.
- [151:32]
Megyn Kelly
We have a little bit of that in Sut 55. Let's watch. I put my son in first.
- [151:36]
Maureen Callahan
I strapped him in his car seat.
- [151:38]
Mark Geragos
He's in back?
- [151:39]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, in the back. Then I go to the back of the truck and I put the stroller in, shut the gate and start walking to the front. Mama.
- [151:49]
Mark Geragos
Mama.
- [151:50]
Maureen Callahan
And I could tell he's worried or scared.
- [151:52]
Megyn Kelly
That's when I look in to see if he's okay. And there's a guy sitting there, a
- [151:57]
Mark Geragos
guy in a floppy hat, wrap around shades, sitting in her SUV right next to her two year old. That moment, how terrifying is that?
- [152:05]
Maureen Callahan
I was in shock at that moment
- [152:07]
Megyn Kelly
and I just stood there and the guy said, get in the car. And I was frozen. And when he said get in the car for the second time, that's when
- [152:17]
Maureen Callahan
I noticed the gun.
- [152:18]
Megyn Kelly
The gun is pointed at her son.
- [152:20]
Maureen Callahan
I see him pull out a pair of handcuffs. He handcuffs my wrists behind my back
- [152:24]
Megyn Kelly
and he pulls out a bag of zip ties and he zip ties my ankles together and then zip ties my neck to the headrest and he takes
- [152:36]
Maureen Callahan
out a pair of darkened sunglasses with
- [152:39]
Megyn Kelly
duct tape I'm guessing, and puts them on my eyes. So now I'm blindfolded.
- [152:45]
Mark Geragos
Speak to me of terror.
- [152:46]
Megyn Kelly
I started losing it and I started choking, choking myself because the zip tie was so tight. Couldn't breathe and gagging and crying and I was just hysterical. Zip tied her neck to the headrest. That is disconcerting. I mean I can't imagine being able to function with any like anything like your full brain power when you're in, in that position.
- [153:12]
Maureen Callahan
No, and actually I had that detail wrong. He was in the car, he got in the car before she knew and her kid was crying and going, mommy, Mommy. But that, that was, that was Keys's M.O. and the sketch that she worked up, they showed a little bit of the police sketch that she worked up of her abductor, her and her child's abductor. It's a dead ringer for Israel Keys.
- [153:34]
Megyn Kelly
It's amazing he let her go. Like, why would he show empathy in that case and none other.
- [153:40]
Maureen Callahan
It's such a great question. I don't know. I don't know what it was. I don't know if it was the crying child. I don't know if it somehow sparked something in him about his own daughter, but it makes no sense because a couple of months later, another woman with her 8 year old daughter, he murders. So it doesn't make any sense.
- [154:02]
Megyn Kelly
This is after he has his own daughter or no.
- [154:04]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [154:05]
Megyn Kelly
Is she around, his biological daughter?
- [154:09]
Maureen Callahan
She is.
- [154:09]
Megyn Kelly
What's her story?
- [154:11]
Maureen Callahan
She was raised by her mother on a reservation way up in Neah Bay in Washington State. It's a very, very remote place and ke's lived there for quite some time. It's real poverty up there. It's real, real poverty. People know who she, she is and she just lives her own life. You know, she's never sought publicity or anything. I remember I reached out to her mom right before the book came out and I said, you should know it's coming out. And like, you might want to remove photos you've got of her on your social media. You know, it'll be easy for people to find her.
- [154:51]
Megyn Kelly
So she's probably mid-20s now.
- [154:53]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [154:53]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh.
- [154:55]
Maureen Callahan
He had a stepson, by the way, who killed him himself. That's been omitted completely from the FBI narrative. Killed himself after Keys was caught.
- [155:02]
Megyn Kelly
So what happens? Because now they're starting to get what they think is a toll, you know, a number. And then it all comes to an end. One day.
- [155:14]
Maureen Callahan
It all comes to an end one day. Jeff Bell is getting ready to barge into a house and make some arrangements, arrests, and he gets a phone call. It's very early in the morning that Israel Keys has successfully committed suicide in his cell. And he has left in blood drawings of 11 skulls with the words We Are One. What the FBI did not make public was that he also wrote on the wall of his cell. And I went there, I went to the jail and I went to the cell and I saw exactly where it was, was. And this was a Plexiglas cell. So if you Want to tell anybody that he did it in secret. Nobody would ever have known. It's impossible.
- [155:58]
Megyn Kelly
So they knew he was killing himself?
- [155:59]
Maureen Callahan
Yes. There was video of blood pooling out from under his door for hours.
- [156:07]
Megyn Kelly
He used razor blade. Yeah, the razor blade from his razor.
- [156:12]
Maureen Callahan
Well, you know, the warden of the jail told me that he put a sign on Keys's door that said, do not give this prisoner a razor blade.
- [156:21]
Megyn Kelly
Wow. And they didn't follow that.
- [156:23]
Maureen Callahan
It's Keystone Cops.
- [156:24]
Megyn Kelly
How did they ever get past that?
- [156:25]
Maureen Callahan
How did they ever get past that dick tat? I don't know, but I got.
- [156:30]
Narrator/Announcer
Wow.
- [156:30]
Maureen Callahan
I. After the book came out, I spoke to somebody who was impact.
- [156:33]
Megyn Kelly
Wait, you were going to say something that was on the wall?
- [156:35]
Maureen Callahan
On the wall. He's in his own blood. He wrote Belize the Nation.
- [156:40]
Megyn Kelly
Why?
- [156:41]
Maureen Callahan
Well, I asked his mom about that, and she said he went to Belize on vacation, and he was really struck by the poverty in Belize. And it really. It made him hate America even more and hate the federal government even more. And, you know, he had planned to. He had. In his planning. You know, at one point, this case in the middle of it, it was reclassified. It went from serial murder to domestic territory terrorism. And the FBI's never said why.
- [157:11]
Megyn Kelly
Wow. Well, does that reclass do anything for the FBI's ability to hide the case?
- [157:18]
Maureen Callahan
I. I think they're doing exactly what they want to do. You know, there's like 50,000 pages.
- [157:23]
Megyn Kelly
Why would they get to the point where they don't want to disclose it? Just because they look bad? Because if the numbers climb too high, they look like they. They're do or know nothings.
- [157:31]
Maureen Callahan
I don't know, because I think they're as discussed, like, with just a few of those. There are others in the book. There are. There. There are plenty of cases I believe could easily be ascribed to him. You know, you could say we could close this out with a fair degree of certainty. Right? Give surviving family members some peace of mind. He was allowed to join as a volunteer, a volunteer recruit the United States Army. Despite not existing on paper, he was raised off the grid by these cultists who belonged to a church, a white supremacist church. Church where they were friends with Keys, was very good friends with Chevy and Shane Kehoe, who grew up to be on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list of domestic terrorists. Potential ties to Timothy McVeigh, Oklahoma City bombing. Keys mentions McVeigh in his interrogations with the FBI. And he says, a lot of people I know regard that guy as a hero.
- [158:24]
Megyn Kelly
Wow.
- [158:25]
Maureen Callahan
He was a super soldier in the army. His special forces training. I asked for his army records. I got like, three pages, and one of those. Two of those pages, the interesting things. One is his father died. They have no idea how or what happened to the body.
- [158:41]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, boy.
- [158:43]
Maureen Callahan
And they were interrogating the discovery of a skull, a human skull, on the base where Kees had trained for quite some time.
- [158:53]
Megyn Kelly
Well, it's no accident. He drew skulls with his own blood as if his final. His final thing here on Earth. And he drew 11, which is less than 12, and now we only know officially of three. So, yeah, that's the big mystery. Who are the other nine? We just don't know yet. I mean, we have suspicions, but we don't know. And we're probably never going to know. Given that you're saying the FBI is kind of clammed up on it. What did his mom say? After the fact, after all this was done?
- [159:20]
Maureen Callahan
So his mother is a member of a culture called the Church of Wells, last I heard, in Texas. And she said to me, these interviews were really difficult because there was a lot of proselytizing to get to the point.
- [159:36]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, boy. Must have loved that.
- [159:38]
Maureen Callahan
It was hard. But she said one day they were driving somewhere in his Jeep, and she knew something was wrong with him. And she said. He turned to her and said, you know, mom, not everyone wants to live the way you do. Not all of us want to live the way you do. And then she said she knew her son was guilty of these things. Like when the FBI showed up at her door, and they were like, we have your son arrested in connection with the disappearance of this young girl. She was like, yeah, that sounds about right. And Jeff Bell saw Heidi at the courthouse, and he said she looked like someone out of Little House on the Prairie. Like the long dress and, like the handmade thing and, like the long braid. And he went up to her and he said, please, can you help us? Your son won't talk. There's a missing girl. They didn't know if she was dead yet. I mean, they knew, but. And she said to Jeff, if the Lord wants that girl to be found, that girl will be found, and turned her back and walked away.
- [160:33]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, this is what we're dealing with.
- [160:35]
Maureen Callahan
This is what we're dealing with.
- [160:37]
Megyn Kelly
So as you look back on the case now, it's been a couple years since you were. Wrote the book. Like, where does he fall in the pantheon of American serial killers?
- [160:49]
Maureen Callahan
Well, you know, the FBI said they'd never seen one like him. Before. And I think that's why his case remains so little known. They know more than they're telling, but not nearly as much as I think we think they do. They have something called the Evil Minds Research Museum. The FBI does what? Yeah, I tried to get in there. They really wouldn't let me in. They left David Fincher in for Mindhunter, but they wouldn't let me in.
- [161:16]
Megyn Kelly
Who is this pest who keeps subpoenaing? Knock, knock, knock foiaing.
- [161:20]
Maureen Callahan
But there, they have the brains of serial killers. They have artifacts, they have a lot of Keys. Stuff like his journals, his own self reports. They have. Also, when they were going to let me in, they were like, don't publicize. Denies this, but screw them. They have, like, a big stuffed Hannibal Lecter in, like, a. A prison cell. Like, you know, in the middle of the movie, like, for fun, Senator comes in. Yeah, that's like. That's their idea of kicks.
- [161:47]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, my God. Yeah, this is, like, at. Where.
- [161:50]
Maureen Callahan
Quantico adjacent.
- [161:52]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, wow.
- [161:52]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah, it's, like, off the highway. Like, it's an unmarked building, but it's a real thing.
- [161:56]
Megyn Kelly
So, like, agents are supposed to go there to learn, or, like, the.
- [161:58]
Maureen Callahan
The. The academics, I guess, at Quantico, or. They are in their tr, trying to figure out the origins of psychopathy to this degree.
- [162:05]
Megyn Kelly
Well, I'm glad they're studying it. I mean, it sounds like, to me they'd be better off reading your book,
- [162:08]
Maureen Callahan
but, yeah, they should give it a shot.
- [162:10]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, that's helpful. Well, I can't believe I didn't know. I mean, I am obsessed with true crime. I feel like I listen to all of them and I've never heard his name before. And my dear friend wrote the book on him, so it's like. I mean, I'm. I was gonna say thrilled to know, but that's not the right word. I'm fascinated. Fascinated. Because they're all so different. And this guy's so bizarre. Where there's not an mo, there's not, like, a typical victim, there's not a geographic tie. Just so bizarre. I don't. It doesn't make me. It's somewhat unsettling, right? Because you want to believe there'll always be that, and that'll make them easier to catch.
- [162:43]
Maureen Callahan
But the thing is, is, like, the more we learn from this one, you know, Keys said he was asked, who is your favorite serial killer? They thought they would get something right. And he said, it's the one who has the been caught. Because he knew that there was someone better at being undetected right behind him. And I'll tell you this, Megan. When the Idaho college murder story broke and before we knew who did it, I was convinced that whoever did it had studied the case of Israel Keys.
- [163:14]
Megyn Kelly
Definitely could be. I mean, he was a criminologist.
- [163:15]
Maureen Callahan
He was a criminologist. He was. It was like he had Washington state connections, but he cross state lines.
- [163:22]
Megyn Kelly
A lot of them do. Washington state is another one. So is Iowa.
- [163:27]
Maureen Callahan
So is Long Island.
- [163:29]
Megyn Kelly
Yes, just. I know as much as you think, it would be like, New York or Chicago or Baltimore, they have different kinds of murders, but they. It's not really serial killer central. They're much more dispersed than that. Yeah, the serial kill thing. Although I will say just a note of comfort for the audience, since it's the holidays. Cece Moore, the great genetic genealogist woman who, like, catches everybody, Speaking of Brian Goldberger, she told me she doesn't believe you can have a serial killer in 2025America. She's like, we've gotten too good. Really. The touch DNA that they, like, it's no longer. They don't need a fingerprint. They don't need blood or semen or bodily fluids. It's like touch DNA. Look how Kohlberger kind of got caught, right? Touch DNA on the knife sheath, which, yes, then he left behind. But, like, that touch DNA 10, 15, 20 years ago would have been meaningless. They wouldn't have been able to find that.
- [164:28]
Maureen Callahan
Right.
- [164:28]
Megyn Kelly
That would have been nothing if it wasn't like, a bodily fluid that you could see in, like, bag. Forget it. Now they know to look for it. And that touch DNA, they didn't have a hit. They had to be the genetic genealogy. They went. They got like, some hit to somebody, some distant relative of Kohlberger, which they then traced back to the dad of Kohlberger. And then they start using her skills to figure out who's around this dad who could be potentially in Idaho on this night. And then they quickly got to Brian. But anyway, she doesn't think that you can have a serial killer in 2025America, which makes me feel better.
- [165:01]
Maureen Callahan
The only I would say my caveat to that would be if you look at the Gilgo beach killer, who was active for many, many, many, many years, it's the victim. It's just as important. Right? He was targeting sex workers, and they don't stay on sex worker cases for very long, you know, So I guess if you're. If you're. If you're a predator and, you know, your prey That's. That would be my one thing where I'd maybe push back on that.
- [165:24]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. You're going to like the victims no one cares about.
- [165:28]
Maureen Callahan
Exactly. That society regards as kind of disposable.
- [165:31]
Megyn Kelly
Well, I was trying to leave it on an up note, but I'm sorry, I don't think we're going to be able to now. And I know I.
- [165:36]
Maureen Callahan
Well, the book is fun to read and it's. There's. Oh, and there are great. I didn't see the 11 skulls, but I hear it's. It's great. The Keys case is fascinating. I was amazed you found the Dateline footage, because I was trying to find it while doing the book and I couldn't find the footage.
- [165:50]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I don't. My crack team found that, but so good it was. I mean, the whole. The whole case is dark but fascinating. You know, it's like sometimes the serial killer stuff is too much for me. Like, I don't. I can't take any torture stories. But we think we did a good job today of skimming over some of the more disturbing parts of this guy because you can go deep and you can go way darker on him even than we did. And that's our silver lining. I like it. You could have gone. It could have been worse. We say. Nothing says Christmas like true crime. So, look, I think the reason so many people are drawn to true crime is because it takes your mind off of your own problems. You cannot be thinking about whatever thing is stressing you. And when you were thinking about something like this, there's something soothing about solving it, you know, like justice. I think there's a good contingent of us who. That really feels validated. When justice comes to bad guys, it makes you believe again in the world, you know, like, people aren't all gonna get away with it. Mother effers. And that will conclude the things of positive things. I have to say the list. Love you.
- [166:55]
Maureen Callahan
I love you.
- [166:56]
Megyn Kelly
Happy holidays. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year.
- [166:58]
Maureen Callahan
Happy New Year.
- [166:59]
Megyn Kelly
All of it, lady. Great to see you.
- [167:01]
Maureen Callahan
Great to see you.
- [167:06]
Range Rover Announcer
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- [168:04]
Dan Cummins
If you're into the weird, the wild, and the downright bizarre, check out my podcast, Time Suck. Each week I dive into shocking stories like the rise of the Nexium cult, the origins of conspiracies like QAnon, and the San Francisco witch killer murders. With deep dives and dark humor, Time Suck brings you the stories that'll fascinate you, make you laugh, and fill your head with lots of strange, strange facts. New episodes drop every Monday. Join the cult of the curious. Follow Time Suck wherever you get your podcasts.
- [168:34]
Megyn Kelly
We have a fascinating program for you today, one filled with crime, murder, money and betrayal. Today we're talking to one of the most infamous mobsters in American history, Salvatore Gravano, otherwise known as Sammy the Bull. To understand his story, we have to take a step back in time to the early 1970s, when the Godfather hit the big screen and changed the perception of the mafia in America.
- [169:01]
Narrator/Announcer
You spend time with your family? Sure I do. Good. Because a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man. You look terrible. Want you to eat, want you to rest. Well, in the multis with big Shot's gonna give you what you want.
- [169:20]
Megyn Kelly
It's too late.
- [169:20]
Narrator/Announcer
They start shooting in a week. I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse.
- [169:28]
Megyn Kelly
At about that same time, Gravano, a kid who grew up without mob connections in his family, slowly eased into La Cosa Nostra and made his first kill. Over the course of the next two decades, Sammy the Bull would rise up the ranks of New York's notorious Gambino crime family, raking in millions upon millions of dollars and repeatedly killing. He has admitted to 19 murders in all, including his own brother in law, his best friend, and the Gambino family mob boss Paul Castellano in 1985.
- [170:04]
Dan Cummins
Deadly messages from organized crime to organized crime and the rest of society. The murder of Gambino crime family boy Paul Castellano Yesterday, or the 1979 assassination of Cosa Nostradan Carmine Gallenti. Unsolved very public executions by an underworld that plays by their own rules and
- [170:22]
Mark Geragos
their own code of justice. The Castellano murder. Particularly brazen and defiant since Castellano was
- [170:28]
Dan Cummins
gunned down a day before he was
- [170:30]
Mark Geragos
to resume standing trial for auto theft
- [170:32]
Dan Cummins
and murder, Organized crime had served up its own sentence.
- [170:39]
Megyn Kelly
By the late 1980s, the new Don John Gotti had named Sammy the Bull his right hand man. Gotti himself was a ruthless mobster and media darling who dressed in expensive suits and enjoyed the finer things in life, earning him the nickname the Dapper Don. He also repeatedly escaped conviction with, as it would turn out, Sammy's help, which was get to earning him another nickname, the Teflon Don. Remember how they use that about Donald Trump? Well, it was first about John Gotti. But in 1991, everything changed. John Gotti and Sammy the Bull were behind bars facing a slew of charges when Sammy decided to flip and do the unthinkable, cooperate with the feds. At the time, he was the highest ranking gangster to break his blood oath, earning him the ire of mob aficionados who dubbed him a rat.
- [171:35]
Narrator/Announcer
Not since Joe Valachi in the 60s
- [171:37]
Megyn Kelly
has such a high ranking member of
- [171:39]
Narrator/Announcer
the mob turned traitor. Sammy the Bull Gravano now joins the
- [171:42]
Mark Geragos
ranks of those who have broken the
- [171:43]
Narrator/Announcer
cardinal rule of the Mafia omerta, the code of silence.
- [171:49]
Megyn Kelly
Sammy's testimony helped send John Gotti away for good.
- [171:54]
Narrator/Announcer
The Teflon is gone, the Don is covered with Velcro and every charge in
- [171:59]
Megyn Kelly
the indictment stuck and resulted in dozens of other mobsters going to prison as well. One top FBI agent says that testimony by Sammy led to the demise of organized crime in New York. Since then, there have been numerous books and movies made about the Gambino crime family. And while some may still consider Sammy a quote, rat, hundreds of thousands of people, our curious fake fans of his, subscribing to his podcast, launched right around the time our own did called our thing, which is what Cosa Nostra means. In fact, his YouTube channel alone has more than 77 million views. Sammy the Bull Gravano, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.
- [172:47]
Narrator/Announcer
Thank you, thank you. It's a pleasure.
- [172:50]
Megyn Kelly
So let me start with this after that fact background. How are you still upright, right? Like how are you still walking around on two feet?
- [173:00]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, the mafia changed quite a bit. It doesn't do certain things and people understand the story. What happened, that word rat, I mean they use that, they do that all the time. But in my case, I was offered that position to cooperate a bunch of times. I was arrested all my life. I never cooperated. I was facing life in a number of different cases. But when it came to John Gotti, I was arrested in 1991 with him. And after 11 months, the worst 11 months I've ever done in prison. I've been in prison 22 years of my life. But he wanted me to take the weight so he can go free. He was going to back up the tapes that the government had. And most of those tapes were all lies about me killing union people and taking over, or killing my partners and taking over. None of that was true. But he thought that he would have the lawyers back up those tapes and turn around in a way to say, well, you hear John complaining about him, it's not. John. Would be set free and I would go to prison. He had the bulls to actually tell me this, my face. And that's when I walked away from him, the Mafia. And whatever would happen would happen. I wasn't afraid of it.
- [174:47]
Megyn Kelly
Now I understand. Well, and let me just jump in because we'll get to that in detail in just a bit. But, and I. And what you're basically saying is that you, you felt he was going to sell you out up the river and you sold him up the river first. But is that why you don't think anybody has tried to seek retribution? I mean, I understand there's been at least one attempt on your life since your testimony against him, allegedly by a family member of John Gotti's. But is that it? Because you did witness protection, you did all that. I can't imagine nobody else has tried to come get you.
- [175:25]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, there was a team that came down when John Gotti was away. Peter Gotti, his brother became the boss. He put together a team to come down and kill me. They found me, they were afraid to even come near me. And they were, they devised all kinds of plans. A bomb, then this thing that spins around and shoots shotgun shells. And that didn't work. Nothing, nothing worked. And I got arrested again in 2000, February of 2000. And it didn't get done. When I got arrested, I had, in my apartment, I had five guns, four guns planted in different places. In my kitchen, in my bathroom, my room, living living room. I expected them to come down and I had one on me all the time. I was actually waiting for it to happen. And they worked with me. These were people, some people were my crew. One of them was my brother in law, Eddie Garofola. And they knew me and they knew I wouldn't run for from it. And they were cowards. They didn't make the move, they were afraid to make the move. And I got. When once I went in prison again, that part of it was over. So there was an attempt. Excuse me. They found me, but it didn't work out for them. It worked out for me.
- [177:14]
Megyn Kelly
As I said, you're doing a podcast now. And so on. Are you at all in hiding? I mean, is it something that. Do you need to keep your whereabouts unknown?
- [177:25]
Narrator/Announcer
No, I think the whole country knows where I am. I'm not in hiding. Listen, I went into the witness protection program. I didn't want to go into the program. I had money. I didn't want to go in. I did only five years. I'm my first hit, my first pinch. And the government begged me to go in, that they would look terrible if I refused and didn't go in. And we had meetings and they said, you know, you got a great sentence. Give us something. Come into the program. I agreed to go into the program for a year. I did eight months in the process program. Something came up. A woman recognized me, and they wanted me to start over again. I said, no, I'm not starting over again. I promised a year. I'll give you a year. There's four more months. It didn't. They wanted to start over, and I quit and walked away. I went to Phoenix where my family was, and I stayed there for about another four and a half years before I got busted again. Since I got out. I got out in 2007, 17. This all started. My wife. My daughter did a book. I did a book when I got out in 96, and she wanted to do a book. We couldn't sell the book. And then somebody came to her about a podcast, and she said, would you work for me and. Because we're divorced, and give me the right to use you to do a podcast? Podcast. And I said, of course I'll help you. And I start. That's how I started. A year after that, or maybe a little bit more than a year, two years after that, my son put me on Facebook. A little while after that, he put me on YouTube. Unbeknownst to me, I didn't even know it. My phone. I was getting all kinds of calls, and my son left one day and said, dad, put you on Facebook. I put you on YouTube. And that's what the call calls were about. So I just stayed on that and I continued the podcast on that, and it grew to big numbers. I'm almost at a half a million subscribers, And I got 77, 78 million views. And now I'm doing a whole bunch of other things.
- [179:52]
Megyn Kelly
And a lot of. I was reading and preparing for this. A lot of men and women in law enforcement, in particular FBI, FBI agents, watch and listen to the podcast and the YouTube show because they say it's fascinating. They've never been able to get this sort of an insight into a real life mobster's thinking. And you talk openly about the crimes that were committed by yourself, by others. A lot of these guys who were covering you or on you back then are listening, thinking, oh my God, this is helping me put things together. So it's just the. All around. Obviously you have immunity now for those crimes, given the deal you struck with the government. But it's a fascinating thing to think about the FBI agents who once tracked you and guys you worked with now listening to you and are fans of the show. I mean, actually fans of the show. So wait, let me, let me pause you there and let's go back. Let's start with you as a kid because as I mentioned in the intro, you were not raised in a family where your dad was in the mob and your granddad was in the mob. This was not foretold. As I understand it, your dad was fairly successful. You had a nice family. And it wasn't. You had some difficulties as a child, but it wasn't related to anything in terms of crime or the mob.
- [181:07]
Narrator/Announcer
No, my mother and father were totally legitimate. My mother was a seamstress. My father was a painter. Back then they used to use lead in paint, got lead poisoning, had to stay away from painting. My mother got an offer from a Jewish conscience contractor. She would go and make the clothes, women's clothes. And the guy told her, katie, you're great. Open up a little factory and I'll get you work. If you could produce, you know, the quality of work that you do, we'll give you our work. And that's exactly what she did. My father jumped in with her to help her and they worked together. They had a dress factory and that's what they did. I had two sisters. Neither one of them had anything to do with the mafia, boyfriends or anything. One of my brother in law's was an engineer. The other brother in law was a plumbing contractor. Later on, he became in the mafia with me and he became a made member. But before, before that, before I was in the mafia, I had no relation to the Mafia whatsoever. But in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, it was saturated with the Mafia, so it was on every street corner. It was around as a kid. Growing up, I was dyslexic. I didn't do good in school. I got left back in the fourth grade, the seventh grade. I had nothing but problems in school. I got thrown out. I never got past the. The eighth grade. And I was in a gang. And we stayed away from the Mafia. We knew who they were. We knew they were dangerous, so we stayed away from them. It was us against the world, and we didn't want nothing to do with the mafia. And at 19 years old, I got drafted and I went into the military during the Vietnam War. I spent two years there. And when you were drafted, you got two years. If you joined, you had to do three. I did two. I came out and went right back into a gang.
- [183:17]
Megyn Kelly
Can I just ask you that why? Why? Because I would think. I would like to think that a couple years in the army would instill a moral code in you that would give you some pause about going back into a life of crime.
- [183:32]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, it wasn't into a life of crime. It was back into being in the gang. I mean, that's what I knew. The only thing I knew, I was taught how to kill and how to do things in the military. And I would have killed people to protect the country. They gave us that bullshit that it was Communism was coming here. They're going to rape your mother, your sisters. And so I was brainwashed a little bit by the government. I mean, I never met a bad Vietnamese person. The only people I know who. Vietnamese. Vietnamese do my nails or my toenails, and they just seem to be nice people. I've never met Vietnamese people in prison, so maybe they're good crooks. So I think the whole thing was bullshit. So I went right back into the. Into a gang. But unbeknownst to me, while the two years I was gone, most of my friends hooked up with different mafia families, and they were hooked up with different somebody. One of my friends, Tommy Spiro, said, my uncle wants to talk to you. His name was Shorty Spiro. He was in a notorious crew. Carmine Persico. There was a war going on at that time between the Gallows and the Profaci. And there was different sides. The war stopped for a while. So when I got hooked up with them, there was no war going on. I knew sooner or later they killed people that I would be called. That's where I did my first murder. It's a long story. I would tell you if you want to hear it, but I did my first piece of work there. And then Shorty, at that, after that, had told me, sammy, go get your clothes. Joe Gallo had come out of crazy. Joey Gallo came out of prison. He said, go get your clothes. We're going to hit the mattresses. I didn't even know what that meant back then. It wasn't a million movies. And he said, they're a pack of wolves. We're a pack of wolves. We're going to live together. If you have a girlfriend, get rid of her. If you got a job, stop. You're going to live with us 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and we're going to hunt them. They're going to hunt us. And that's what you have to do from this point on.
- [185:51]
Megyn Kelly
And that's the beginnings of your time in organized crime. That wasn't just the gang. That was one of the five New York crime families.
- [186:00]
Narrator/Announcer
Yes, it became the Colombo. It was a Profaci family. Profaci died, and they made Joe Colombo the boss. So when I got in, Joe Colombo was the boss. My first hit was ordered from Joe Colombo to Carmine Persico to Shorty to me. And it was somebody in our crew who was plotting to kill Shorty and me. And his wife was having an affair with Shorty's nephew. And he devised a plot to kill Shorty and me to cause confusion. A couple of months later, six months later, he would kill Tommy Spiro. He went to somebody, Frankie, who was in the crew, and asked for his help. Frankie, instead of helping him, went to Shorty and told him about the plot. That's how the whole thing happened.
- [186:55]
Megyn Kelly
Now, just to take a step back, you mentioned you had dyslexia as a kid and you didn't make it past the eighth grade. And I know that there were some bullies in your life as well. And one of those incidents led to your nickname Sammy the Bull. They tried to steal your bike. You didn't go, let it go peacefully. You were scrappy. And these mobsters saw you fighting and said, look at this kid, you know, and they nicknamed you Sammy the Bull. Now, right? Jumping forward now to this point, you may have stood up to bullies, but you. You didn't go to Vietnam when you were serving in 1964. So you. You hadn't killed anybody, whether in a military uniform or otherwise at this point. So when they said to you, you're going to kill this guy, is it. You know, is it. Is it scary? Is it frightening? Is it daunting? Or is it all business at that point, even as a young man at this point?
- [187:49]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, it was scary. I had a couple of incidents that were scary. That I was going to, would have used the gun. I never did. But when that came, I knew it would come sooner or later. So the story, I heard the story, what it was. I thought I was being bullshitted a little bit, you know, that the guy wanted to kill me. I couldn't understand why he wanted to kill me. I had nothing to do with his wife and the affair. But he had this stupid little plot, like I just said. And when they gave me the order, they said, who do you want to come with you? And I said, your nephew, Tommy Spiro. He created this monster. And then I wanted the guy, Frankie, because I couldn't understand why he didn't tell me. And I wanted to be able to talk to him about that. So they put those two people on the hip with me. And you know, I watched a movie one time and it's a person who was about to kill. And he was sweet, sweating and scared and all of this stuff. I thought that's what happens to you before you commit this kind of a crime. Because I never thought about killing people. But I went through with it. We did it. One night we went out to after hour clubs. We got in the car about 4 o' clock in the morning. And as we drove away, I shot him into back of the head. Twice.
- [189:22]
Megyn Kelly
You were in the back of the car?
- [189:24]
Narrator/Announcer
I was in the backseat.
- [189:26]
Megyn Kelly
Where was he?
- [189:27]
Narrator/Announcer
He was in the front seat, the passenger seat. And when we went to a spot, we went out of the neighborhood, we pulled into a. Like a nice community. It was. It was miles away from Brooklyn, Rockaway. And they had nice homes with lawns and it's quiet. We drove over there. I took him, I picked him up out of the car and I put him on the street, the sidewalk. I got in the car, I opened the window, I put the gun out and I shot him three more times. We got back, we went to the neighborhood, we cleaned the car, got rid of. And we were living together, a bunch of guys. I went and take a shower. I stayed in the shower quite a long time, the water running on me. And I was waiting for this thing to happen. Being nervous and sweating. And it didn't happen. Nothing happened. And I went to bed. I slept like a baby. I got up the next morning. There was confusion. Some of the young girls were still with us. Oh my God. They killed Joe Colucci And Rockaway. And I remember asking one of the girls, did they know who did it? Did they find out who did it? She said, no, it wasn't. It's in the papers already, but it's not in the papers. I don't know if they caught the people or what. And I remember we all went to the corner where we stay and I had like an out of body experience that I felt like I was above somewhere looking down and listening to all of them talking and, and I felt absolutely nothing. And then Shorty came with his nephew, Tommy Spiro, and I came back to reality and they said, carmine Persico wants to talk to you. So we got in the car when we went down there, but that was
- [191:42]
Megyn Kelly
the then boss, excuse me, Carmine Persico at that point was that family's boss?
- [191:49]
Narrator/Announcer
No, he was a captain, but a very, very powerful captain. He was leading the war against the gallows. And so I went down and met with him. I was told not to talk, I didn't talk. Tommy Spiro explained the whole situation, what happened in detail. He grabbed me, hugged me, kissed me on the cheek, and he told me, great job. So. And I didn't feel anything. I went to the funeral and I didn't feel any remorse. I didn't feel kill anything. And I thought that was peculiar. I thought, either something's wrong with me or I'm just a stone cold killer and I'm going to fit in the mafia perfectly. And I guess when I became not a stone cold killer, I was good at what I did. I was good at what I did in a lot of ways, in construction, running unions. But I was also becoming a professional hit guy.
- [192:55]
Megyn Kelly
Had you ever been, you ever been a man of faith? Prior to that, had you ever gone to church? Did you have any relationship with God?
- [193:03]
Narrator/Announcer
No, of course, I still, I believe in God. I, I, I, I don't. I went to church as a kid, I stopped going to church. I believe, you know, in prison I joined the Indians because I wanted to smoke. And you have to join their religion and they allow that in prison, in the federal prisons. So I joined them. I went in to get tobacco that you weren't allowed to smoke from 2004. I went in really wanting to smoke and steal some tobacco and bring it to myself. But I got to understand their religion the way they believe, believe in God. I also, at one point a friend of mine grabbed me and said, sammy, you're not an Indian. We do Wicca. Why don't you join our group? And I did, I joined their group as well. So I started to understand different religions and everybody seems to believe in God. They're just a path. What path you want to take to get to God. Indians have it, Wicca has it. Muslims have it. Church, Jews have it, Catholics have it, Christians have it. It's just a path. And I believe most of it was
- [194:17]
Megyn Kelly
there a moment back then. You know, when you're talking about being in the shower and no remorse, I wonder whether there was any moment of no matter what I feel I recognize I've crossed over, I've done something, I've sinned in the most profound way possible. And at some point there will be a price to pay.
- [194:38]
Narrator/Announcer
No, no, I don't look at it that way. I never felt that way. I still don't think that way. I think that God makes people, creates people, and he creates lions and he creates lambs. I think I'm a lion. And whatever you have to pay, if you have to pay anything, why would he create a lot lion? If there was a God and he was interested in what was going on, why do little kids get cancer and die? Why are little kids get raped? Why do so many things happen? And talking about religions, I mean, I was a Catholic, brought up that way, baptized, communion, confirmation, till I found out what priests do. And I had no intention of, of committing or my crimes to talk to him. I was asked that once by a priest and I told him, yeah, you want me to tell you my. What I do? Tell me what you do and then I'll talk to you about what I do. So I don't believe in religion. I believe in God. But I think religion is bullshit. I think it's the. It's all about. About money. It's all about different things. They commit evil things to good people. So I, you know, I'm away from religions. I respected the Indian religion, the Wicca religion. It stunned me. It's the only religion that they put a woman above God, the goddess of the moon, the water and the earth. God is the God of the forest and in the mountains. Why do they put, I asked a woman above God because she creates life. She needs a man's seed, but she in her womb takes care of life and then gives birth and creates life. I understand that. I'm somebody with common sense. If you make sense to me in a way certain, a certain way, I understand it. So I understood that religion. Now, a lot of people will not be happy with me saying this, but of course it's a, it's a. They call it a pagan religion. They call it all kinds of things. It was before the Christianity even. And I understand that part about a woman giving birth and creating life.
- [197:10]
Megyn Kelly
Well, I know I Mean, I've. I've. I've read that unlike some in the mob, you. You were very. You were a family man. In the midst of all this, you went home and had dinner with your wife and your two kids each night. Your daughter Karen has talked about that publicly many times. And so there has been this respect for your family members, for your wife, for your daughter in a way that even the people who were in the mob said. You know, for example, John Gotti would go out carousing with other women after hours, and you would go home to. To your family. That piece of your commitment of your life, you know, you honored despite what was happening on the other front. And I know that you. You don't see these as. As real as murders. You know, in the same way a soldier doesn't commit a murder when he kills somebody. This is how an FBI agent explained it in one public interview, that. That a soldier would not be murdering. You don't see your kills as murders because there was a code behind them. Because you say the people you. You killed had sort of agreed to live by this code and die by this code. And on that note, that heavy note. Let me pause it, okay, Because I want to get into that next. And that's a whole other chapter for us. So stand by. Let me squeeze in a commercial break and much, much more with Sammy the Bull Gravano as he stays with us for the whole show. Fascinating story to tell. So, Sammy, it was actually a quote that I was reading, not from an FBI agent. It was from Terence Winter, who the audience may know as the executive producer of the Sopranos. And he also did Boardwalk Empire. And he was. He took part in a documentary about you and said the following. Many mobsters consider what they do almost military in nature. They consider themselves soldiers, so they rationalize a lot of really bad behavior. You wouldn't think about calling a soldier at war a murderer. So therefore, if they're a soldier and they're at war, they're not murderers either. They're just. Just doing their job. Does that capture the mentality?
- [199:14]
Narrator/Announcer
I believe so. I. 100%. You know, I watched a program one time During World War II, we dropped an atom bomb, an atomic bomb, an atom bomb. Twice. Not once. Twice. But I saw the guy who was in the plane and over Hiroshima or somewhere, and he pressed the button, and it killed 100,000 people, men, women and children in a split second. And they were patting him on the back, that he did a great job. The war was ended early because of those things. And If I was talking to the guy, I would say, listen, you did a great job, great military guy, you fought for the country, you did what you were supposed to do. How do you feel now knowing you just killed 100,000 people, men, women and children? Does that bother you at all? And I'm sure he would tell me no, because he was fighting for the country. He was fighting for what he thought was right. In the Mafia, it's part of. It's not a gang no more, it's part of my head heritage. It came from Italy, Sicily. It started in Sicily and it came to this country. So it's part of my heritage. So it's not just a gang. A gang is, you know, killing in a gang or doing certain things for a drug supply is a different thing. But this is a soldier. It was explained to me I was involved in the Johnny Keys hit. It was a major, major hit. And it was. He was a guy who had 50 hits under his belt and me and him were going to go at each other. And it was explained to me that we were like two samurais. Now I understand a samurai is a different thing than us. They're actually more violent than us. But I really feel, felt that way that we were two samurais who met on the battlefield.
- [201:31]
Megyn Kelly
What about, can I ask you. Let me ask you a couple follow ups on that. So obviously when we dropped the bomb at the end of World War II, they estimated that we saved somewhere upwards of 25, 30 million lives by putting an end to World War II when the Japanese would not surrender. And so, you know, I'm not defending the killing of 100,000 people. Exactly. But in a way I am because it was the right decision. It saved far more lives than it actually cost, but in the Mafia. And I can get it if the guy.
- [202:02]
Narrator/Announcer
Let me answer your question, Let me answer that question. The people who say that it saved 25 to 30 million lives was who? The government? Of course they're gonna say that.
- [202:15]
Megyn Kelly
I mean, independent analysts, to take a look, who have taken a look at this ad nauseam since the end of world World War II will tell you that the lives saved, far, far outnumbered the lives cost. Doesn't make it not controversial, but you can't talk about it without adding that perspective. But I mean, the thing about the Mafia, and I can understand if a guy was going to kill you, I mean even the law recognizes maybe not exactly the way that you would do it, but recognizes a right to self defense. But it seems like it was a whole criminal justice system that you guys agreed to where you sleep with guy's wife, you could get whacked. You, you interfere with my business, you could get whacked. It basically is just whatever the head of the crime family wants. And the guy doesn't show up like a samurai, face to face in a meeting where you fight it out to the death. He just gets in the car with you, he gets whacked in the back of the head. So I'm interested in the moral, you know, the way you thought about those kind of differences. Morally.
- [203:16]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, morally, I, I don't know if it's. It to me, if it makes a difference. If you kill somebody on a battlefield or you kill somebody in the car, or whether you use a gun or whether you use a knife or whether you use poison. Dead is dead. You just took a life. It doesn't matter how you take it. You can beat somebody to death. You could fight, you could win a fight. You can go overboard and just beat this person to death. So you're just took a life. No matter how it is, whether it's more gory about the means.
- [203:51]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, you're talking about the means.
- [203:52]
Narrator/Announcer
Yeah, the means of how you're doing it. I don't know if it makes any difference now. They want to take guns away from everybody because there's a shooting. I mean if there's not a shooting, want to take guns away from everybody. You get some sicko. So he goes in with a bomb and he blows half the school up and, and he kills more people actually than he using a gun. Does that make you happy? You didn't have a gun. So I don't think the means of what you use is that important. You're taking a life. Whatever it is, whatever your reason is, whatever the senses look at later on, you're taking a life. Whether it's on a battlefield, in the street, no matter how you do it or what you do, you're taking a life, bottom line. But we have excuses for what, how you do it. If me and him were in a battlefield, in the street, we like years ago, and we back up and we pull out a gun from the side and we both shoot at each other. You take it to life. What's the difference how you do it? That is dead. My brother in law had a good say. You get hit by a car, car. And you're all crunched up, bleeding, all your bones are busted up and you're dying. How would you feel if the person ran over and said, it's me, Sammy, he didn't do it on purpose. It's an accident. Does it make a difference to me if it's an accident or it's on purpose? I'm about, I'm all crushed up. I'm in tremendous pain. I'm about to, to die. Death is death.
- [205:34]
Megyn Kelly
I don't know. That ignores them, that ignores the moral code. I mean, I agree with you in terms of, you know, you die by a knife, you die by a gun. It doesn't make much of a difference to you. But we're, we're expanding beyond that too. The, the law recognizes some, some killings as justified. It would not recognize any of the ones that you're talking about as justified. And I think you know that. It's just what you're saying is that in the Mafia you live by a different code of justice. And, and it's as I understand it, your position is that you wouldn't run around killing what you call legitimate people. It's, you know, if somebody pissed you off in your social life, he wouldn't be at risk of getting whacked. You only for the most part. And we'll get to one of the exceptions I know about, but it sounds like it may have been an accident, but for the most part, you only went after people who were part of your world and who had agreed to live and die by this code.
- [206:33]
Narrator/Announcer
Right, Exactly. I never killed a woman or a child, and I never killed even a legitimate guy who I didn't get along with or whatever. I mean, I had fights, but that's as far as that would go. I'm not going to kill somebody because I don't like what he said or something like that. We're not complete lunatics. Some of us became lunatics, but
- [206:58]
Mark Geragos
I
- [206:58]
Narrator/Announcer
never went to that degree. I live by this code and I would willing to die by the code. I told my family when I cooperated, we talked about cooperating. When I cooperated, I said, if somebody comes down and kills me, don't even. And be mad, don't say nothing, don't do anything, don't be mad. I broke the code. I understood that I could die for what I was doing. If I could understand it, you understand it, leave it alone. So I believe in that code just like I believe in God. But I don't believe in certain religions, probably most religions, but you got to live by something. And I live by what I was, was taught by my mother and my father, the legitimate end. A lot of people would say I was a different kind of gangsters. You talked about the Law enforcement. I'm still friends with agents, NYPD cops till today. Because they were different. We got along, we were friends. They had one life, I had another life. We understood each other and I was basically a different kind of, of a gangster. I cared about people. I'm a people's person. Basically my ex wife and my daughter or my son will say, dad, you talk to everybody. Yeah, they're human beings. I talk to people. I love people. I like working people.
- [208:26]
Megyn Kelly
But what about Allen Keyser? This was a 16 year old boy who you killed and I understand.
- [208:35]
Narrator/Announcer
No, no, it was, it was, it's not accidental. And I didn't kill him. First of all, it was a gang who came and they actually did movies about this to our after hour club bikers. And, and they, and I went to that place. I wound up getting a beaten. They got. I got jumped by six, seven guys. My ankle was broke on both sides. I had a cast from my knee down. And I had permission to go after this guy. And it wasn't Alan Kaiser. So I'll tell you what happened. We got in the car and we were looking for him. One night we saw him pull up
- [209:12]
Megyn Kelly
in front of Double A different guy. Aldo Candido.
- [209:15]
Narrator/Announcer
Yes, yes. And I said, that's him. We went back to our club. We got guns, we got a shotgun. Now it was supposed to be loaded with double O buck which will put down a moose. But they were using it for pigeons and playing around with was birdshot. So anyway, Louis Molino had it. I said, pull up to the car. When you see him coming out of that house where the car was double parked, stop, ask him for directions like we're lost. I was laying down in the backseat with a cast on my leg. There was a driver and Louis Molino was in the passenger seat. I said, when he gets to the car to answer you, I'll shoot him in the face. Louis Molino rolled down the window when he came out. And he must have been told the night before that what they did was to a made guy, me. And he knew he was in trouble. So as soon as Louis asked him for directions, he started to run. Louie jumped out of the car, threw a shot at him, hit him in the back. He kept running, didn't put him down. He kept running. This kid Alan Kaiser and I spoke to the family and everybody about this. He was 16. We didn't know he was 16. He wasn't a target, wasn't in the hit, wasn't supposed to get it. No, no accident. He ran at Louis Molito, he might have been part of that gang, I don't know. The driver yelled to Louie Melito, guy coming at you. He turned around with the shotgun inches away from the guy and shot him in the chest. When he went down, he put the shotgun to his head, pulled the trigger again and killed him. We found out the next day that he was 16 years old. We were in shock. It was terrible. 16. The number itself shocks you. But why did he want it? Louis Melito, why did he do that? He wasn't the target. Nobody was shooting at him. He could have ran back at his house. He could have went the other way. He could have just stood there and never got touched. So now, whether he was on drugs, whether he was part of the gang, I don't know. You hear stories.
- [211:41]
Megyn Kelly
Just for the record, his family says he was not a gangster. Quote, he was just an innocent kid walking home.
- [211:46]
Narrator/Announcer
No, no, not a gangster. He's 16 years old. He definitely wasn't a gangster. He could have been a gang member or he knew this guy because the guy was in his house. So the family can't deny that that guy was in his house. They were together. He came out, the other guy came out to the car and he was on the side. Nobody was going to shoot him. And the family recognizes that too. I talked with the sister and she said, I don't know what made him do that. Now people will say that I killed a 16 year old kid. First of all, I didn't shoot him, Louie did. But it doesn't matter. If I could have shot him, I would have. I'm not trying to make myself a good guy. I didn't shoot him. But the police found him exactly where it was, in the street where he got to. He came off the sidewalk, into the street after Louie. Not on the sidewalk with his books, coming home from school like you hear some stories. None of that's true now. It was a shame. We were sick about that. He was 16 years old and we were confused why he even did that. And he wasn't a target of the hit. We weren't even looking at him. But what would you expect? What would I expect Louie to do? The guy is actually a foot away from him. What is he supposed to do? Just stand there and wait for the guy to grab him and tackle him to the ground or do something he's on?
- [213:16]
Megyn Kelly
You know, obviously this is why we don't choose a life of crime. This is why we don't. We don't go to murder people in neighborhoods and Take the law into our own hands. And why the law prohibits it because bad things can happen. And that's why there's something called felony murder. You're in the process of committing one felony, and you accidentally or otherwise commit another murder, you're going to be charged for it, even if it was an accident in the course of the felony. Because the law recognizes creating extremely dangerous situations.
- [213:43]
Narrator/Announcer
Absolutely. And I'm charged with it because I'm part of the murder, not the shooter, and he wasn't the target. But I still get charged with it. And I understand that. That's why it's on my list of 19 people that he's there. I mean, and I get it. But I did give a courtesy to the family. They talked to my daughter. They talked with my son, and they wanted to talk with me. And I did talk with them. I took the time to explain what happened and why nobody wanted to kill this kid. They understood that. I don't know what they told you or told anybody else. And I know that the Gotti's instigated these people saying that I killed their son or their brother. 16 years old, I'm a baby killer. That was brought up by the Gotti's who were trying to make me look bad or make it look worse. And I know how it was brought up. And like I said, this was talked about with the families. The whole thing was talked about with the police. And it's not. I'm not saying it was a good thing, it was a horrible thing, but it's one of those things that happen. I mean, if I see a murder, I think I'm a pretty tough guy. I see somebody shooting at somebody, I'm not going to run at the shooter. He's got a gun.
- [215:02]
Megyn Kelly
No, I got it. I got it. I got. Let me pause you there. Let me. Let me squeeze in one more break, and we'll be right back. Much more to the story with Sammy the Bull Gravano as we continue right after this.
- [215:13]
Range Rover Announcer
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- [216:11]
Dan Cummins
If you're into the weird, the wild, and the downright bizarre, check out my podcast, Time Suck. Each week, I dive into shocking stories like the rise of the Nexium cult, the origins of conspiracies like Qanon and the San Francisco witch killer murders. With deep dives and dark humor, Time Suck brings you the stories that'll fascinate you, make you laugh, and fill your head with lots of stories, strange facts. New episodes drop every Monday. Join the cult of the curious. Follow Time Suck wherever you get your podcasts.
- [216:43]
Maureen Callahan
You said, I hear this behind my back, talking about my father. Do not say nothing. When my back is turned, say to my face and automatically I just black the out. I don't give a if he's a rat. Enough. Say to to my face.
- [216:57]
Megyn Kelly
Check my bloodline, bitch. I'm coming for you. You want to keep talking about families?
- [217:01]
Maureen Callahan
Let's talk.
- [217:02]
Narrator/Announcer
You want to bring up families?
- [217:04]
Maureen Callahan
You want to get my daughter into this for my daughter, for my father? From everybody that you spoke about, I
- [217:11]
Range Rover Announcer
will take a piece of you every time.
- [217:13]
Narrator/Announcer
This is why you never talk about families. Look at the outcome. Now that blood was drawn, things will never be the same again.
- [217:22]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, so that was the bulk of that clip is Karen Gravano, Sammy's daughter, who was one of the stars of the show Mob Wives, which I confess, I absolutely loved. And she was very open about what it was like to grow up as your daughter. And sort of when she. How she slowly became aware of what you did for a living and how she could tell, you know, obviously she's fiery and feisty, but how she could sort of tell that you were an important man. You know, the way people greeted you, the way people showed you respect. And I know, you know, that must have manifested in your life, too. Sort of getting into the clubs in New York, and I saw the ABC documentary where, you know, you talked about, you looked at the Manhattan skyline and said, you know, I own this. I own it. I built it. I control it. So can you talk to us a little bit about that, that piece of your history?
- [218:16]
Narrator/Announcer
Yeah, well, you know, I became very powerful in the construction industry, and one day we were on the other side In Connecticut, I believe it is. And we were in a fancy hotel and we went out. I went out on the patio and smoking a cigar, I think, and I looked at the skyline at night. Manhattan is gorgeous, lit up at night. And it. It just. The guy who was with me said, what are you looking at? I said, look at this. Look at the beauty here. It's absolutely stunning. It's gorgeous. And I'm part of building this whole thing. I mean, you can't get a job at this point in my life without some sort of a wink and a nod from me saying yes or no. I mean, I became very powerful in the construction industry industry. Paul had me. Paul Castellano had me under his wing because he loved construction. And he was part of the reason I became very powerful in the construction industry. And he enjoyed using me to run certain unions and do certain things for him. And, yeah, I loved what I was doing as far as the construction.
- [219:30]
Megyn Kelly
And I should mention because you mentioned Park Castellano, so because you had sort of started with a different crime family and then eventually moved over to the Gambino crime family. And that's the family that Paul Castellano for a time was the head of. And you would later become part of his assassination. But before. Before. Before we get to that. So you're living large. You're living large in New York. And this was a time in what. It's a weird question, but, like, to what extent did that film, the Godfather, affect. Affect people's view of the Mafia and your own experience within the Mafia? You know, because it. When I was growing up, you knew about the Mafia, but there. There definitely was a glorification around it. You know, it seemed like, oh, they hurt people, but maybe mostly their own people. But that's not really true. I mean, the extortion was on regular folks, too. And yet they seem kind of cool, and people wanted to, like, rub elbows with them in very high circles. There was speculation about Frank Sinatra and, you know, so on and so so forth. So what was your experience of that movie and people's reaction to the Mob?
- [220:34]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, that movie stunned me. It was probably one of the best movies I ever watched. It was completely well done. Godfather 1 and Godfather to Godfather 3 was a joke, but, yeah, because you were in it.
- [220:49]
Megyn Kelly
This is coming out. You were. You were in it when those movies hit.
- [220:52]
Narrator/Announcer
Yeah, yeah. And it, you know, it showed the family orientation, how we are with family. The weddings. My family had weddings like that, and people would get up and sing, and it was fun. And you Know who was it? Sonny is with one of the bridesmaids in a room upstairs. I mean, that's typical of.
- [221:17]
Mark Geragos
Of us.
- [221:18]
Narrator/Announcer
That was really typical of us. All that stuff that happened in that. The agents watching us. And it just gave me a whole different look at the mob and how the people would look at it. And as far as the fascination, I know what it is, everybody in my mind anyway, has a fascination, especially men have a fascination of being a tough guy, going with beautiful women, beautiful cars, making money. You know, fuck the government. I don't want to pay taxes and I don't want to do this and that, the other thing. So everybody looked at it and it's. You didn't live that life, but you admired it in a way. You felt a certain way when you watched it. And I watched this new movie that came out, the Offer, how they made the Godfather. Very interesting movie. Great movie with the producers in Hollywood, the whole nine yards. I mean, just watching these things. The Mafia, really, you know, it's. When I was in prison a couple of times, Abs, Harry and brothers and other gang members came to me and told me, sammy, tell me about the structure of the Mafia. And I would tell them, why, you know, not the Mafia, your Aryan brothers. Why would you want to know? And they said, your structure lasted a thousand years. People admire you guys. Some people wanted to be like you guys. What's the whole structure about? So I realized then, even them asking me questions like that, that they admired themselves and wanted to be like it. My answer to them was, we're not savages. We don't kill outside our organization. Where everybody in the Mafia at one time or another has been involved in a murder, 99%. So how do you control that group of people if there's no violence within us, if there's no punishments that could cause death, how do you stop them? How do you stop a guy? What are you going to do? Cut off his tie? What do you slap him on the wrist? He's not going to listen to you. Then he'll do whatever he wants to do. Then there'll be no control, will be no better than a gang. And that's what I would tell some a B guys and stuff like that. You have to have rules, you have to have ideas. You know, I looked at. There was a conversation I just had recently about. I was in Paul Castellano's house and the union, which we control, the association and the union for the garbage, and there was a massive strike. It was on television. There was garbage piled up Everywhere. I came in and he told me to sit down. The maid got me a cup of coffee and he said, send it for Jim, Jimmy Brown and the people who are running the union and the association. So we sat there for a while, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, those guys came in. Jimmy Brown was a captain. The other guy was a made guy. And he said, look at this television. He said, what are we, animals? Pick up that garbage from schools, from hospitals, from old age, Holmes, we'll win the strike, but what are we? Animals? Over money, over winning. We'll win. Pick up that goddamn garbage. It struck me in a way that here's the boss of bosses. Paul Castellano. He was the boss of bosses. He was the head of the commission. Saying something like that, caring about children, hospitals, old age homes, that they would be infected with garbage, whatever. It gave me a different look at things. And I, you know, those are good things that I saw. There's evil things I saw. There's people who borderline, got to like killing and became serial killers, like Roy Demayo or Gas Pipe and people like that. And we killed them because they became that. So we don't believe in pedophile as rapists, serial killers. We want to get rid of that. When I was in my neighborhood, the whole neighborhood, I would say, this is my neighborhood. People I don't even know. Maybe you lived in there. I didn't even know you. You're a beautiful woman. You'd walk down the block, my guys, I would tell them, this is not a construction site. Don't hold now. Don't do anything when you see her. She's part of our community. They're us. Nobody's going to touch her. Her husband knew she was beautiful. He'll tell her, go right past Sandy's club. Don't worry about it. He said that because he knew she was safe. We wouldn't let nothing happen to her around the block. Only God knows what happens. So we lived a different way. And I think that touched the public in a certain way. They didn't agree with the violence, but we were different. We were a different type of an organization. Criminal organization. I'll call it criminal because it is. We would take, like you say, from every industry, but we took a little, little bite out of every industry. We screwed the government out of taxes. Yeah. We screwed insurance companies. Yeah. We didn't feel any guilt about that because they screwed people all the time. My mother and father, that broke their back and was so legitimate. I don't even know how I became a gangster. Tell you the truth. They were so legitimate, so, so honest, but they were taking advantage of by unions, by the government. So I have no sympathy for government. I have no sympathy for insurance companies who sometimes go overboard and people are sick and oh, no, we're not going to pay that claim or we're not going to do this or we're not going to do that. I'm not saying all of them. There's some really good people, honest people out there in every industry and there's some bad people in every industry. So, you know, I have mixed feelings with a lot of these things.
- [228:04]
Megyn Kelly
And what about like, the ma and PA shop owner on the corner who are just trying to make ends meet and they got to pay extra money every month for security or, you know, for permission from you guys to do what is their legal right to do or else never happened.
- [228:19]
Narrator/Announcer
Never. Never happened. Never happened. As far as I'm concerned, never happen. Happened. All the mom and pop stores knew my mother, my father, me, my family. It was a community. What, What. If you're worried about the mom and pop stores, I'll tell you what crushed them is big corporations. Liberal elites, of course, get these big corporations and crush them. You know, I had a little milk farm, they called it. It's a little grocery store at one point in my life. And I bought pants campus wholesale, and I put them for a cheap number. I wasn't making any money, just as a draw for people. So I sent my partner, my gumbata alley boy Como, go to the supermarket, see what they're charging. When he came back, he said, sammy, they're charging like less than we're paying for the wholesale. So I said, how, how could they do that? He said, well, number one, they're buying tons of stuff. I wasn't. I'm buying two cases, they're buying 4,000 cases. And if they want to make a sale and do the same idea that I have, how can I compete with them? I took the two cases of papers and threw them out. I can't compete with them. Okay, so this is what happened in small business. Business got crushed. But the mom and pop source, I mean, I have never, ever thought about. We love these people. We knew them. We went to a bakery, fruit and vegetable store. Those things don't even exist anymore.
- [229:56]
Megyn Kelly
But you guys, you didn't charge people for security, saying, no, no, not security. Never. Well, something. I mean, I remember, I have some personal knowledge on this because in another life, before I was a journalist, I. I was a lawyer. And the lawyer I worked for at this law firm, Jones Day was charged with enforcing a consent decree that the mob had entered into in New York City. And that meant the mob admitted it had done a bunch of things and we were responsible for making sure it lived up to its promise not to keep doing them. And you know, the sort of, the harassment of small businesses, small business owners was on the list. Money laundering and so on, that was another thing. But you know, this sort of smaller crime, smaller than murders and so on within the, the family, that's, that's one of the reasons why people don't like the mafia, right? Like it's not all within your own family. There are innocent people who get hurt and who have to pay unnecessary money that they shouldn't have to pay and who could get hurt if they don't do as as told.
- [230:53]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, listen, like I said before, you know, there's good and bad in every organization and there's bad guys in the Mafia who would do something like that, do a lot of things like that. That wasn't our norm. Now I would do that with a disco or something to protect. When you talk about protection money, if you could mention my name, nobody could come in and bother you, Mafia wise or any, any other way. I'll take care of your problems. But I didn't cripple them. They gave me a pay or they gave me something that helped them. I don't look at it as hurting them, shaking them down. It's like a rent, it's like anything else that or any bill that you pay. And in most cases that I did, it was a reasonable pay. What I did mostly is use my power to help grow a company and I would become their partner. I'll give you a quick example. There was a guy who had a small little container company. He'd go to houses and put the container you're moving. You put all your garbage in that container. And he's making money. The containers would garbage. And I got to like the guy. I went to him and I said, listen, I got connections in Jersey. I could get the best containers and I could increase your business. So we had a conversation. I said, I don't want any contracts or anything like that. We could work on a handshake. How much do you make a year? And he said about 100,000 a year. I said, how about we go partners? The first hundred thousand you make, that's yours. That's what you make. Anything above that, me and you were partners and I could get you more work, I could get you better containers. So we did that. We shook hands, and we did that. At the end of the year of our partnership. I said, how did we do? What did you make? He said, Sammy, I made 400,000 this year. All right? The first hundred thousand is yours. The other 300,000.
- [232:52]
Megyn Kelly
And the allegation, the allegation against you by your critics is that nobody should have accepted this kind of an offer from you because if they wanted to renegotiate or if they wanted a bigger piece of the pie, you would kill them.
- [233:08]
Narrator/Announcer
No, it's not true. That is not true. I've never killed a partner. Listen, what I told. What we're talking about happened 40, 50 years ago. And if you came to my office, I'll show you 14, 15 different letters of people who were partners with me and knew me back then are sending me love letters. And I'm not talking about women, men. Sammy was great. I watched your podcast. I hope you make it. Our partnership was great.
- [233:33]
Megyn Kelly
So I don't know what would happen to the guys for whom it wasn't great. What about what would happen to the guys who said, I don't like the deal and I actually want to break up?
- [233:45]
Narrator/Announcer
I didn't care. The guy with the container business. After a couple of years, when I grew and I was making some so much money, I gave him the business back. I didn't charge him a penny. I walked away. This is yours. I did it with a guy named Joe Madonna with the ace partition. We had 200 carpenters. When I grew in status, I said, joe, I love you. I made a ton of money with you. It's yours. It's all yours now. And if anybody bothered you get in touch with me. And if I could get you some big work, give me a piece. And I got a letter from him in my office now, a letter from him loving, Loving the partnership, the relationship we had. Now, what would happen if a guy was wanted to take advantage of me in some way or throw me out or push me out or do something on his own? He wouldn't be happy with it. He wouldn't get killed. It's not a killing in my eyes. It's not a killing offense. But I was powerful with union and everything. I could be a tremendous pain in the ass. And that's what I would be. If he's going for job. If he would go for jobs, I would tell him, don't give him no work.
- [234:55]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I imagine if Sammy the Bull tells you, don't give this guy any work, you don't give the Guy, any work, because there's a lot of power behind that name at that time, especially. So that leads me to Donald Trump, because there was speculation in the press when he was running for president that he had mob ties. No one could ever get him on it. Like, you know, the press tried to get him on everything. None of that was ever proven. But it reminded me of this, this one exchange he had with David Letterman. This is before he ran for president back in 2013, where he was asked, because this is a guy in New York City real estate, you know, he has to deal with construction and some of the industries that you just mentioned, unions all the time. And here's how that went. This is Saad11.
- [235:35]
Mark Geragos
Have you ever knowingly done business with what I like to call organized organized crime? Have they ever stopped by, really tried
- [235:46]
Narrator/Announcer
to stay away from them as much as. Right. But have you ever had a case where a guy stopped by and said, donald, we're going to handle the linens? You know, growing up in New York and doing business in New York, I would say there might have been one of. One of those characters along the way. But generally speaking, I like to stay away from that group. Yeah, well, I think that's. That goes without saying.
- [236:08]
Mark Geragos
But sometimes, sometimes they don't let you stay away for a moment.
- [236:12]
Narrator/Announcer
There's truth to that. But if you're smart, you can stay away.
- [236:15]
Mark Geragos
You have to stay away and just
- [236:17]
Narrator/Announcer
sort of lead your life.
- [236:18]
Mark Geragos
You don't want to get involved.
- [236:19]
Narrator/Announcer
Although I must say I have met on occasion a few of those people. They happen to be very nice people. You just don't want to owe them money.
- [236:27]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I understand.
- [236:28]
Narrator/Announcer
Don't owe them money.
- [236:33]
Megyn Kelly
I've heard you talk about him before and sort of said, like he was. You knew not to. Don't go there. You knew.
- [236:41]
Narrator/Announcer
No, here's what it was with Donald Trump. He was smart. He was a good builder. He was a great builder. He was pretty honorable with the people he dealt with. He had a group of ex FBI agents for security purposes. So we knew. I knew that. So you could push on him a little bit. I tried, but couldn't succeed. What he's saying is right. He knew we were there. He knew that he had to deal with situations, but he built it as a, As a business guy. You couldn't go up there and try to talk like this guy was talking. You're going to threaten him? Give me. You would be arrested in three minutes. Those agents were around him 24 7. So I backed away from him because there Was nothing I could do. A guy named Eddie Garrett fall had a demolition company. He did a job for him. He was able to reach some people in the company, but it never went to his level that we know of. And he didn't want to deal with us. I left him alone because I thought that was a bad problem. He was a legitimate guy. I didn't want to go try to threaten him because I thought we would go to prison. So we left him alone. There was plenty of people who wanted to deal with us. So to go up there like a thug and walk in his office and try to threaten him, you would go to prison for sure. So I don't think anybody bothered him. I'm going to give you a quick example of a news reporter. A woman who called me one day and told me the same thing you're telling me. You were very powerful during the 80s and he was a big build up. You must know something. They're asking me after he became the president. So I said, I really don't know. You know, just what I told you now, that's what I know about him. I really don't know any incidents that he's done anything. If that's what you're looking for, Sammy, please, come on. She's begging me for information. It'll just be between me and you, which I knew was bullshit. That's not going to happen. She's looking for information. It's not going to stay between me and her. So I felt like goofing on and I said, listen, it's just between me and you, Sammy. Yeah, yeah. I give you my word, nobody will ever know. I said, all right. There was a drywall job I wanted. I knew this beautiful woman was a friend of mine. She was a hooker. So I hooked it up with Donald Trump. Me, Trump and her, we had a menageri trois. And I couldn't help it, I started laughing. So she said, you fuck, you're lying. So I said, I'm not lying. You keep pressing me. And she was asking me, what's her name? What's her name? What do you care what her name is? You're not going to say nothing? Why do you care?
- [239:32]
Megyn Kelly
They should have given it to BuzzFeed. It would have been printed on the front page.
- [239:36]
Narrator/Announcer
Yeah. So now she's laughing, I'm laughing. And then I said, listen, there's one thing I definitely would never do with Donald Trump. I don't dislike him, but I would never have a mirage of 12. That's what you are.
- [239:49]
Megyn Kelly
So my head Wait, can I just. Let me pause this right now. Just have a bit of breaking news at this moment. You just mentioned him, the movie Godfather and Sonny Corleone. James Caan was the actor. Paul played that role. Just died. Just got that news in. 82 years old, James Caan just died.
- [240:12]
Narrator/Announcer
Wow.
- [240:12]
Megyn Kelly
So sad. Yeah. What an icon.
- [240:15]
Narrator/Announcer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know he was hooked?
- [240:19]
Megyn Kelly
What do you mean?
- [240:19]
Narrator/Announcer
He was. He was in the Mob.
- [240:22]
Megyn Kelly
What?
- [240:23]
Narrator/Announcer
James Khan was hooked in with the Mob. That's the guy who played Sonny, right?
- [240:28]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you mean?
- [240:30]
Narrator/Announcer
I was there. I was there when he came down and asked permission to be in the. That movie. I was there with Carmine Persico. Joe Colombo gave me.
- [240:38]
Megyn Kelly
Who did he ask permission of to
- [240:40]
Narrator/Announcer
be in the movie?
- [240:41]
Megyn Kelly
But who. Who was he? Whose permission was he seeking?
- [240:44]
Narrator/Announcer
Joe Colombo's. And he came to Carmine Persico because there was a guy, Andrew Mush, who was friendly with him. Matter of fact, Andrew Mush, who was a captain in the Colombo family, became Godfather. His kid or vice president, vice versa. They were real tight all their lives. So he was connected with the Colombo family.
- [241:09]
Megyn Kelly
Wow. So at some point in his. When he was being cast for the Godfather, you're saying he had this connection?
- [241:15]
Narrator/Announcer
Yes.
- [241:16]
Megyn Kelly
Wow.
- [241:17]
Narrator/Announcer
Yes, I was. When he came down and they, you know, they said, he's an actor. He's coming down. And they played the part. They brought him over to Carmine to his permission.
- [241:26]
Megyn Kelly
And you. You witnessed him asking for the permission?
- [241:28]
Narrator/Announcer
No, absolutely. I was there.
- [241:30]
Megyn Kelly
What did he say?
- [241:32]
Narrator/Announcer
No, he asked for permission. Carmine told him, I'll talk to Joe Colombo. I'll make this happen. Don't worry about it. What he did is he put him in Andrew Marsh's hands. Tight. You know what I mean? He might have got the pot anyway, but they played this whole little game with him, but he. They became super close. One became the Godfather. 1. One of the kids. And you could look that all up. You can. You can see that I'm confused, because
- [242:00]
Megyn Kelly
James Kahn was a successful actor, I think. I don't have his whole bio in front of me prior to the. The Godfather. So are you saying he was young?
- [242:09]
Narrator/Announcer
He was young. I don't think he was a major actor. He could have been an actor. Of course he was an actor. But I don't think.
- [242:15]
Megyn Kelly
But he wasn't in the mob like you were in the mob. You're saying ties like connections and what friends would. What does it mean?
- [242:21]
Narrator/Announcer
Yeah, it's an associate. It's an associate of the Mob. In other words, he's on record now with the Mafia as an associate. He's not a maid member. He's not one of us, but he's an associate of the Colombian, just like Sinatra was.
- [242:38]
Megyn Kelly
He was, too, you say. I mean, of course there's been rumors about this for years, but you're saying that they're true.
- [242:44]
Narrator/Announcer
You know, when we took over John Gotti and me and John Gotti was a fucking egomaniac, and he was in a restaurant. Sinatra had come in, and he didn't say nothing to John. He was going to buy him a bottle of wine or something. John refused it, and he sent this guy Joe Watts over to Sinatra. And tell him, whenever you come in a restaurant, you see John Gotti, you come over and you kiss his head.
- [243:10]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, boy.
- [243:10]
Narrator/Announcer
And now Sinatra went to where he supposed to. To go to the Genovese family, because that's where he was for years, this guy Frankie Blue Eyes and Chin Gigante. I was there when he got in touch with us and told John, you know, bro, he's always been with us. What, do you send somebody over to abuse him? He does a lot of favors. It's not us, but he's my dog, bro. If you need a favor, he'll do it. Don't go sending people over and threatening in front of people. And so, I mean, how much more? I mean, and I always knew it, but I'm giving you that example where he was abused by this Joe Watts on John's orders, and the Genovese family came right out of the woodwork and protected him.
- [243:57]
Megyn Kelly
And I should say. I mean, with respect to James Caan, of course, we haven't had the chance to reach out to anybody in his camp and ask these questions, and they're quite clearly going to be in mourning today.
- [244:08]
Narrator/Announcer
Andrew. Ask for Andrew Russo. They used to call him Andrew Mush. If he's related to him.
- [244:14]
Megyn Kelly
Okay, I will say I knew James Kahn just a bit personally through a mutual friend, and he was an absolute gentleman and completely kind and lovely.
- [244:25]
Narrator/Announcer
I'm not saying anything bad about it.
- [244:26]
Megyn Kelly
No, no, I know. I know you're not. No, no, I know. I just don't. I feel uncomfortable if none of this is true, disparaging him on the day of his death. And so. And I haven't had the chance to check it out. So with respect to you not. Not saying it isn't. Just don't know. I want to make that clear to the audience, but. But that's unfortunate. It's sad to have lost him. His work in the Godfather earned him an Academy Award nomination, a Golden Globe nomination, and of course, a place in all of our hearts because he was this firebrand who was tortured and I think just did such a brilliant job of portraying what one might go through if one were born into such a family or in your case, willing to joined, quote, the family. Before we leave that subject, did your wife, I always wonder about the wives. Like, did your wife know everything? I know she knew you were in the Mafia, but did she know you know about murders? Did she know all that?
- [245:18]
Narrator/Announcer
No, absolutely not. I never told my wife anything about the Mafia and it was my way of protecting her. She always, in other words, in my opinion, could turn around. If she was ever questioned by the feds or anybody. She could say, I don't know legitimately, not as I'm not going to give her information, especially murders, something like that. I'd have to be out of my mind to do something like that. But she knew I was in the Mafia, but she didn't know any of that. Neither did my kids. I was a family man. I lived two lives at home. I was a father, a husband. When I made money, I bought a farm. We put horses on the farm. We. It was a family life. When I drove to that place, I left the Mafia behind me. When I got off the highway, it was in Jersey, Cream Ridge, N.J. and smelt the trees, the grass, I was like. It was, I was like a different person. Yeah, that's the farm. Yeah.
- [246:19]
Megyn Kelly
Wow.
- [246:20]
Narrator/Announcer
And it was, it was a 30 acre farm. We turned it into a horse farm. We lived great times in it, fun holidays, Fourth of July. So when I left, I left on a Friday, took off, usually staying there on a Saturday and Sunday with my family. And we did all great things. When the FBI went up to Cream Ridge, New Jersey, they went to every restaurant, everywhere I went asking people, you know, about me. And not one, they, not one person said anything negative when I say sold it. There was a woman who was. She sold it. She was. She asked me for a cart where the kids sit on it and you could drive it. So I had said, you know, I'm not going to sell it. It's part of the farm. And when I did sell it, I told them, that cart isn't for sale. And I gave it to the woman. She told the feds, that's how he dealt with me. Never offered me money under the table or doing anything, but he gave me this cart for my grandchildren. And a matter of fact, as soon as I'm done with this conversation. I'm going to get in touch with him and I'm going to tell him that user here asking me questions. So I, I was a different animal there.
- [247:36]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Well, no, I mean, your kids talk about you in this way. It's part of what makes you fascinating, the dichotomy between your professional life and your home life. And up next, in our last segment together, I want to get, get into turning on Gotti, going into witness protection and your job that, that you did while, while that happened, plastic surgery and then how you wound up back in prison and then free again. Okay. So don't miss that. Stay with us for one more segment as Sammy the Bull Gravano continues with us right after this quick break. My team's pitch has been looking into the James Kahn thing during the break and says indeed, Andy Mush Russo, part of the Colombo crime family, was a longtime friend of James Caan. And at one point, James Caan did indeed offer to post Mush's bail money when he was accused of a crime. And this Andy Mush Russo was indeed godfather to one of James Kahn's children. So to be continued on that front. There were, there have been reports that Khan had this connection, though I've never heard it directly from somebody who was actually in the mob. So we've gone to a different place. Okay, Sammy, you wind up, you and John Gotti wind up running the Gambino crime family, the Genovese crime family, and John Gotti's mob boss, he's the boss of the family. You become underboss. And you guys for years and years were very tight, very tight. And then as I understand it, and as we said in the intro, things went downhill. And I don't want to spend too much time has been talked about about a lot. But they went downhill. And you were both in jail together. You thought he was going to turn on you. And I know you say that's why you turned on him. You went to those two agents who were following you around all the time and said, let's talk about John Gotti. Now his defenders say bullshit. They're like, that's Sammy trying to cover his own butt so he doesn't look like a rat. John Gotti wasn't going to turn on Sammy. And they basically just call BS on the whole story. So what do you want want to say about that?
- [249:40]
Mark Geragos
Right?
- [249:41]
Narrator/Announcer
I mean, I mean, I've heard that they said there's millions of hours of tapes. It wasn't me. It was hours of tapes. There was but up in the apartment, there was a small amount of tapes, four or five. It was up there for months, but we didn't use the apartment. A lot of times when we did use the apartment, we didn't talk about anything. There was a couple of times that I was in the apartment and he was sitting with Frankie Lacasseo. Now, when people talk about it was all bullshit. I mean, it's made up. There's agents, New York State Organized Crime Task Force, that heard these tapes, listened to the tapes and knew exactly what was going on. But I'm going to give you one story that's going to blow all that other stuff away. The judge got rid of our lawyers, Jerry Shagel and Bruce Cutler, and we had to get new lawyers. One of the lawyers that we brought in did an interview, and you could check this out in an article with Jerry Capisi. He did an interview with Jerry Capisi and told him this. I was brought in to be the lawyer for John. And he told John I was in that meeting. It was a lawyer's meeting. He said to John, you can't beat this case. Your tapes are devastating. The four, five, six tapes out of all the rest of them are devastating. I can try to work out a plea agreement. And John said, no, I'm going to beat the case. I got a secret weapon. So Bruce Cutler, I mean, Bruce, Carla, what I just say, his name was that big lawyer. But anyway, he said, well, tell me your secret weapon. How are you going to. To beat this case? And he says, I'm going to throw Sammy and Frankie under the bus, and I'm going to go free. We all laughed. Sounded like a joke. The lawyer never came back. When he did the interview with Jerry Capisi, he told him that story. He says, I never went back because I didn't to want. Want any part of that strategy. But John continued with that strategy because when he was in the apartment with those tapes, he had planned to kill me. And he. You can't just kill an underboss who's very powerful, big money earner. The whole family likes you. If you could kill him, you shake the whole family. If you could kill him and you could kill. Kill all of us. There's a guy who's the most loyal guy to you. He's rigging your cases. He's killing people for you. If you could do that. So all of the things he was telling Frankie to talk about to the captains, to prepare, Sammy's killing his partners. He's killing union guys and taking over the reunions. He wanted that to go out so that when he kills me, he would have justification.
- [253:23]
Megyn Kelly
That is on those tapes. We looked into what he, John Gotti, was saying on those tapes, and indeed, it's very negative about you and your alleged behaviors. So I see it, and forgive me for skipping past some of this, but, you know, this has been out there. So you wind up saying, you're gonna cross me. I'm gonna. I'm gonna cross you first. And you'll wind up going to jail, which he did for the rest of his life. You got a good deal, a sweetheart deal, where you're supposed to go away for five years. You really only had to serve less than one year because you'd already served four prior to.
- [253:56]
Narrator/Announcer
You're a little bit off. I took a plate with the thing. Not for five years. I took a 20 year plea. I got sentenced to five years.
- [254:06]
Megyn Kelly
Yes.
- [254:06]
Narrator/Announcer
Because of the cooperation that I did.
- [254:09]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah, got it.
- [254:10]
Narrator/Announcer
Took a plea for 20 years.
- [254:12]
Megyn Kelly
Got it.
- [254:12]
Narrator/Announcer
And. And I didn't do a year. I did over four years. You got some good time off of the five. So I did almost five. When I got sentenced, I had seven months to go on. On what I got.
- [254:30]
Megyn Kelly
It's immaterial. The point is, it wasn't a lot of jail time for, you know, the feds, what I do.
- [254:34]
Narrator/Announcer
Absolutely.
- [254:35]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah. For what you did. So the. You. The deal is you're going to go into witness protection, as we mentioned at the top of the show, for a while. And can you just tell us, because I read that you did something with pools. Where did they send you and what was the job? And did you actually run around like, looking after people's pools for a year or two or selling people's pools? How did that go?
- [254:58]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, when I first got out, I went in the witness protection program for eight, eight months. I promised them I would do one year. They were begging me to go in the program. I didn't want to go in. I had plenty of money. They said, you're going to make the government look horrible. Come on, you got a great deal. 5 year deal. Give us something. Go in the program for a while. I gave them a year. I only wound up doing eight months because I met a woman there I was talking to and hanging with a little bit, and she recognized who I was. And they came back in and they said, we're going to take you and move you to another state. We're going to start from scratch. And I said, no, I promise you a year. I'm in. Eight months. I'm not doing it. They said you have to do it. That's the rules.
- [255:51]
Megyn Kelly
But, like, while you were doing it, while you. I'm interested in your life while you were doing it. Like, how does it. Guy who's in the mob doing the stuff you're doing go to, like, looking after somebody's pool and claiming that you have this other name and this fake background? You know? What. What was that?
- [256:07]
Narrator/Announcer
Like, I wasn't. I wasn't doing it while I was in the program, and I changed my name. When I left the program in eight months, I changed my name back to Salvatore Gabano. So I wasn't walking around with the.
- [256:20]
Megyn Kelly
Am I wrong? I feel like you're. You don't like the fact that you were in this program at all. Is that because it violates, like, the mob code? Is it makes it. You sound no, like, no, no, no.
- [256:29]
Narrator/Announcer
I want to be in it. What am I going to do? That you can't have any contact with your family or friends or. There's all kinds of rules. I just did five years in prison. I'm not going to live by a whole bunch of set of rules. So I gave them that one year. You could bounce me around, change my name, do what you want with me, and then I'm done with you. I'm out of prison. So I didn't want to stay with these rules.
- [256:53]
Megyn Kelly
Did you go to people's cocktail parties? You go like, the barbecue of the neighbor next door and say. What was the fake name again? I. I can't remember the fake name.
- [257:00]
Narrator/Announcer
Jimmy Moran.
- [257:01]
Megyn Kelly
Did you. Did you say, like, hey, Jimmy Moran, and like, come on over. We'll watch the super bowl together. Like, how did it go?
- [257:06]
Narrator/Announcer
No, no, no. I was just running around. I was 55 years old, I think I was. Or 50 something years old, and I was there. I was. It was in a college town. I wound up in Colorado, and it was Boulder, Colorado. It's a college town. And I was hanging out out there. I met a couple of, you know, people, and I played chess with some people. I'm a chess player and friendly like that. But no, it wasn't party time. It was. I was. I was. It was like doing time on the outside. I wanted to get done with the witness protection program and go home. So you did that.
- [257:46]
Megyn Kelly
You got. Sorry. Condensed on my time. So I just want to get in the last thing. So you go back to your real name and your life. And we talked earlier about whether that was scary in terms of, like, people are going to come get me. And sure enough, some tried, and you wind up like, to me, it's just so, like, you know, I get it. Because if you're in a life of crime, maybe it's hard to get out, but you wind up dealing drugs and going back to prison for 20 years, almost 20 years. How did you let that happen? How? Like, how did that happen?
- [258:21]
Narrator/Announcer
Now, on that one subject, not one subject, but that's exactly what happened. And I wasn't dealing drugs. It was ecstasy, which they consider it a high drug. It's. And it was that. That's all it was. It was no heroin. It was not cocaine. It was nothing. Crack, it was ecstasy, which is a bullshit drug. They put it on a level. But anyway, I didn't even do that. There's a thing called Coming Out, a documentary that we're working on, and me, my daughter, my son, and I'm tied up under contract with that documentary that's going to talk about that little part of my life. So I don't think I could talk about that or I'll get my head handed to me because I'm in contract with it now.
- [259:07]
Megyn Kelly
Oh, that's fine. That's fine. So we'll stay tuned to wait for your. Your longer take on that. But you get out of jail in 20. 2017, and now what? Right? So now how old are you now?
- [259:20]
Narrator/Announcer
77.
- [259:21]
Megyn Kelly
77 years old. You and your wife divorced, but it sounds like she's still in your life and kind of a business partner now. We talked about your daughter Karen. You have a son as well. So, you know, what next? What do you do with the time you have left?
- [259:35]
Narrator/Announcer
Well, actually, she's not my business part. She's not my business business partner. I'm her bitch. I work for her. She owns the company. She handles my rights, and I work for her. I do my podcast. I do some other things, and I do some things on my own. So we're not really partners, but we're close. We have kids, grandchildren. We've been divorced since 1991. And so. But we are close. And I still got. I'm still close with my kids, my grandchildren, and I do this. I couldn't find a better thing to do in retirement. I'm never going to go back to crime. I'm never going to do anything like that again. So I enjoy the social media stuff that I'm doing. I'm in this contract about the story of my life at that time with the ecstasy and all of that baloney. And.
- [260:35]
Megyn Kelly
Is that the Salvatore. Is that The Salvatore. Is that. Or is that a different project? Because I know you're.
- [260:40]
Narrator/Announcer
No, that's.
- [260:40]
Megyn Kelly
You've got your own short film series called the Salvatore that's coming out.
- [260:44]
Narrator/Announcer
Yes, the Salvatore. It's based on a true story, but it's not a true story. It's fiction. But it's me. It's. Here's what it is. I get out of prison in 2017. I'm contacted by the FBI. My wife and children were in the program, supposedly, and they were all killed. And the FBI wants me to go after and follow some serial killer. And I agree to it. I don't want to do it at first. And they show me a picture of dead woman and kids, and I agree to go after him. Now, I'm going to say this here, but I'm not even supposed to be saying these things, but what happens is that these FBI guys got money from the mob and they gave this serial killer my wife and kids address, and he was supposed to go kill them. So they get the money, they break the link, and they got me now they got me going after him. Sounds a little confusing, but me going
- [261:58]
Megyn Kelly
after him, no, I get it. It's a. It's sort of a crime drama. So this is going to come out on Sammy on his YouTube channel. So if you're not subscribed, you can see it there by doing so in the. In the minute we have left. Rounding back to the discussion we had on faith and God at the top of the. Of the show, what do you make of it? A lot of. Lot of folks, when they get to be 77 years old, start thinking about the afterlife and what. What possibly awaits and forgiveness and all of that. So how do you see what's next for you? You know, meeting a maker, making amends, asking for grace for forgiveness. Is any of that important to you?
- [262:43]
Narrator/Announcer
It's important to. You know what's going to happen. I mean, I really don't believe that you go anywhere. I'll be honest with you. I don't think you go anywhere. But if I going to go anywhere, I'm a negotiator. I'll talk to him and I'll talk to. I'm not going to ask for forgiveness. If you made me, then you made me. You could have stopped me anytime you wanted. I'm not going to. You made me what I am. I'm a lion. You may be not. So if you wanted to stop me, you could stop me anytime you want. I'm not going to ask for forgiveness. I Did what I did in an honorable way, if you could call it that. In my eyes, I never really took advantage of people. I never cheated. I never lied. I never bullshitted people to an extent, except for the government, because of course, I couldn't tell them the truth. And I could tell my family, tell me the truth of things I was doing, but I think that's understandable. And I really. I'm not looking for forgiveness of what I did and what that would mean. This is taught in the church. If you don't believe this, you're going to hell. I don't believe in all that bullshit. I really don't. If you don't believe what I say, you're going to hell. If you don't tell, I don't. I don't believe. Believe any of that. So. I believe there is a God. I look up at the sky. I do artwork. I learned how to do artwork in prison. I look up at the sky. Who could do that? What artist in the world could do that? It's got to be a God life. You see kids, you see animals. You see things. Animals kill each other. So I don't believe in the stuff they tell us in religion.
- [264:29]
Megyn Kelly
You know, I got it.
- [264:29]
Narrator/Announcer
I think God is fair, he's honorable. If he's there and I. I don't think I'll have too much of a problem. I think people bullshit about religion, I think they'll have more of a problem than I will.
- [264:43]
Megyn Kelly
I gotta. I gotta leave it at that. Cause we're coming up against a hard break. But I agree with you that God is fair and he is honorable. And he. I believe he will have the last say. Sammy the Bull Gravano, thank you so much for telling your story and as I say, for what the mob says, giving testimony that led to, in their view, what the FBI has said led to the demise of organized crime in New York. Amazing. All the best to you. His podcast is called Our Thing, and his miniseries the Salvatore is coming out next week. My God, what just happened? What just happened in that last two hours? My team and I were just talking about it. It just like went to a lot of places I didn't. Did not expect the thing about James Caan and. But you know, there's something. There's something to be learned there because we. We have been so fascinated by the mob in this country. So fascinated by the mob. And it is interesting to listen to somebody who was in it at the highest levels talk about how it works and what the ethical code actually looks like. Looks like, right. Like some of that stuff at the I behave honorably. That's how he sees it, how he believes in God, but doesn't think that there will be any judgment for him because he thinks God made him the way God made me alive. I mean, that stuff was very eye opening to me in terms of how his brain works and how people can live a life like this. How could you live a life where you kill 19 people? I understand. He says they agreed to live by this. So same code. But you know, the rest of us who live by a very different code have trouble understanding any of this. And it's an organization that's had its tentacles in American society for 100 plus years. Right. So it's like, anyway, there's a lot to be learned and our fascination with this group remains. It may be dwindling, it's not done in New York, but it's certainly not what it used to be. But it's still out there and you know, it gets glorified in virtually every Hollywood movie stuff to this day. So I don't know. I enjoyed the exchange and I enjoyed listening to his take on it. Obviously disagreed with a lot of his ethical conclusions, as I'm sure you did. But I learned a little bit and I hope you did too. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly Show. No bs, no agenda, and no fear.
- [267:09]
Narrator/Announcer
Foreign
- [267:12]
Megyn Kelly
what's up, sports fans? I'm Rachel Dimita, here to tell you about my show, Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Caitlin Clark's unstoppable rise in the wnba? How stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA? Or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments. Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and click. Come hang with us Courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Ooey and ah.
- [267:43]
Mark Geragos
Real talent is defined by what people
- [267:45]
Megyn Kelly
can do, not where they learn to do it.
- [267:47]
Mark Geragos
So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away
- [267:51]
Megyn Kelly
the perfect hire skills first.
- [267:53]
Narrator/Announcer
Hiring helps you see talent others miss,
- [267:55]
Mark Geragos
like more than 70 million stars skilled through alternative routes let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage. Because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful hire. Hire skills first. Learn why@tearthepaperceiling.org brought to you by OpportunityAtWork and the Ad Council.