Shocking New Kohberger Case Details About DNA Match, "Unknown Male" Blood, and Witness, with Howard Blum | Ep. 1002

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Megyn Kelly Show – Episode 1002

Title: Shocking New Kohberger Case Details About DNA Match, "Unknown Male" Blood, and Witness, with Howard Blum
Host: Megyn Kelly
Guest: Howard Bloom, Journalist and New York Times Bestselling Author of When the Night Comes: A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders
Release Date: February 7, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 1002 of The Megyn Kelly Show, host Megyn Kelly delves deep into the high-profile trial of Bryan Kohberger, the suspect accused of murdering four University of Idaho students. Joining her is Howard Bloom, a seasoned journalist and author who provides critical insights into the unfolding case. The episode focuses on recent pretrial developments, particularly concerning DNA evidence, potential legal missteps by the FBI, and the reliability of eyewitness testimony.

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DNA Evidence and FBI Procedures

Howard Bloom sheds light on the pivotal role DNA evidence has played in the case against Kohberger. Initially, the FBI’s case hinged on a minuscule DNA sample—a "little speck of DNA" found on a knife sheath (03:17). Bloom explains:

“They used this speck of DNA...uploaded it to two websites, ancestry DNA websites that prohibit law enforcement from using this DNA.” (03:45)

This controversial move by the FBI to utilize genetic genealogy sites, which are typically off-limits for law enforcement, has raised significant legal questions. The defense argues that this breach violates Kohberger's Fourth Amendment rights, potentially rendering the obtained DNA evidence inadmissible.

Megyn Kelly summarizes the issue:

“If you go on there, it’s just like the cop violated a term of service of a private company...But I don’t see how that helps the defendant whose DNA was uploaded.” (27:48)

Bloom adds that while the FBI’s actions might breach protocols, it doesn't necessarily mean Kohberger’s DNA evidence will be dismissed. However, the possibility remains, especially with the judge considering a Frank's hearing—a judicial process where evidence might be excluded due to procedural errors (06:59).

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Defense Arguments and Legal Implications

The defense, led by attorney Ann Taylor, is aggressively challenging the legitimacy of the DNA evidence and other prosecution claims. Taylor contends that without proper warrants, the FBI's methods were unconstitutional, arguing that all subsequent evidence derived from the initial DNA match must be suppressed (05:10).

Bloom elaborates:

“If they can get that thrown out, there’s really not much there.” (08:01)

This suppression could severely weaken the prosecution's case, leaving the DNA evidence as one of the few substantial pieces linking Kohberger to the crime.

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Additional Evidence: Car and Cell Phone Data

Beyond DNA, the prosecution’s case includes cell phone tower triangulation placing Kohberger in the vicinity of the murders and the discovery of his white Hyundai Elantra near the crime scene (14:12).

Howard Bloom critiques this evidence:

“There are lots of white Hyundai Elantras around. They can’t make that connection directly.” (15:17)

Moreover, Bloom points out discrepancies in the cell phone data’s accuracy and the lack of a clear motive or direct connection between Kohberger and the victims. These gaps allow the defense to argue reasonable doubt, potentially undermining the prosecution’s narrative.

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Eyewitness Testimony: Dylan Mortensen

A critical aspect of the trial is the testimony of Dylan Mortensen, a roommate who claims to have seen Kohberger on the night of the murders. However, her reliability is questionable. Initially, she described a man with "bushy eyebrows" wearing a COVID mask (30:03), but subsequent interviews revealed inconsistencies:

1. Uncertainty and Memory Issues: Mortensen later suggested she might have dreamt the event or was too intoxicated to recall accurately.
2. Failure to Identify: When presented with a photo of Kohberger, she could not confirm his identity as the intruder (31:25).

Bloom underscores the weakening impact of Mortensen's testimony:

“Not a very good witness.” (32:22)

These inconsistencies cast doubt on the prosecution’s case, as the principal eyewitness fails to provide a coherent and reliable account.

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Blood Evidence and Possible Accomplices

During the hearing, it was revealed that blood from two unknown males was found at the crime scene—one on a banister and another inside a glove (21:25). This discovery introduces the unsettling possibility of accomplices, complicating Kohberger’s narrative of committing the murders alone. Megyn Kelly highlights:

“How did he get it to the point where there was no blood in the car?...That's a big mystery for me.” (19:40)

Howard Bloom theorizes that Kohberger might have deliberately planted additional blood to mislead investigators, pointing to the absence of his own blood elsewhere as suspicious.

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Prosecutorial Challenges and Jury Considerations

The prosecution appears to struggle in countering the defense's mounting arguments. Key points where they conceded include the lack of blood evidence directly linking Kohberger to the crime scene and the questionable handling of DNA evidence. Megyn Kelly observes:

“They didn’t argue. They went along with that.” (37:02)

This apparent concession may erode the prosecution’s case, making it difficult to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Additionally, legislative changes in Idaho concerning the death penalty, shifting from chemical injections to firing squads, could influence jury perceptions and decision-making (34:42).

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Conclusion and Future Prospects

As the trial approaches, the defense's mounting challenges to the prosecution’s evidence could significantly impact the outcome. Howard Bloom anticipates a highly contested trial with meticulous scrutiny of all evidence:

“It’s going to be a very interesting trial.” (40:31)

Megyn Kelly concludes with a poignant reflection on the victims and the quest for justice:

“These four beautiful college students...their families deserve justice.” (42:14)

The episode underscores the complexities of the Kohberger case, highlighting significant legal debates, procedural anomalies, and the critical role of reliable evidence and credible witnesses in ensuring a fair trial.

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Notable Quotes:

• Howard Bloom (03:45): “They used this speck of DNA...uploaded it to two websites, ancestry DNA websites that prohibit law enforcement from using this DNA.”
• Megyn Kelly (27:48): “If you go on there, it’s just like the cop violated a term of service of a private company...But I don’t see how that helps the defendant whose DNA was uploaded.”
• Howard Bloom (08:01): “If they can get that thrown out, there’s really not much there.”
• Howard Bloom (15:17): “There are lots of white Hyundai Elantras around. They can’t make that connection directly.”
• Megyn Kelly (19:40): “How did he get it to the point where there was no blood in the car?...That's a big mystery for me.”
• Megyn Kelly (37:02): “They didn’t argue. They went along with that.”
• Megyn Kelly (42:14): “These four beautiful college students...their families deserve justice.”

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Final Thoughts

The episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the Bryan Kohberger case, emphasizing the fragile nature of the prosecution's evidence amidst emerging defense strategies and potential legal missteps. As the trial date approaches, listeners gain valuable insights into the intricacies of criminal justice and the paramount importance of evidence integrity.

Transcript

[Megyn Kelly]

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[Howard Bloom]

Well, the way these authorities got to Kohberger wasn't through any other evidence at the beginning, but just a little speck of DNA, smaller than a piece of dust that was left on the button of a knife sheath that was left behind. They used this speck of DNA, they processed it so that they could give it to an FBI laboratory, the FBI laboratory. Then, after months of not admitting what they had done, it was revealed in the end of January in court that they had taken this DNA and they had uploaded it to two websites, ancestry DNA websites that prohibit law enforcement from using this DNA. The FBI did this not out of any evil reasons, but just out of their zeal. You have to go back to the time of the killing. It was a murderer of four young children on the loose. They had really no clues. Except for this DNA. Except for this DNA. It was in many ways the perfect crime. They had no blood evidence, really. They had no, no evidence of anyone stalking these, these young college students. All they had was his DNA. So they ran with it. And this DNA allowed them to open up many other doors, ultimately having a series of search warrants that led to the suspects, Brian Kohberger's phone, his car, his apartment. But without that DNA, they couldn't have gotten these search warrants. And now the defense is saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. This suspect's Fourth Amendment rights were violated by the FBI's going into these prohibited websites.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's. You've been saying this all along. You've been suspecting that the FBI got this match between the DNA, the touch DNA on the knife sheath and matched it to Kohlberger's father, possibly by, by doing something they're not allowed to do, which is use the commercial DNA websites that people like you and I might go to if we're looking for a long lost relative. They have a public database CeCe Moore, the original creator of genetic genealogy, talked to us about this a long time ago, saying there's only one that's totally public and anyone can upload their DNA and see what's on there. The. The other two are fee for service private companies that are not allowed to be used by law enforcement. Otherwise nobody would go on there. Right. They'd be like, if I ever committed a crime or have a relative down the line who might have committed a crime, I'm going to get him in trouble. So there's supposed to be this hard wall. And you said early on you suspected. Because the FBI seemed to be very cagey about this whole thing. They didn't want to turn over the results of how they got this to anybody, that maybe they've done something they weren't allowed to. Go ahead.

[Howard Bloom]

Not only did they not want to turn over the results, they said. They said literally that they had ripped up the evidence of their. Of their research. They said, we just threw it out. Whoever heard of in a major murder investigation, the FBI discarding evidence? But this is what they did. But the defense kept on pressing and pressing, and now they got a judge to give him the evidence. And it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt. It came out in open court that the FBI violated the protocols of these two genetic websites. Now, how is that going to affect the case? The judge.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wait, before you. Before you answer that, let's just show the audience what Kohlberger's defense attorney, Ann Taylor. Yes, that's her name. Argued about this Investigative genetic genealogy IGG evidence. Listen to her in stop 41. Your honor, our position is that the court should suppress the IgG identification and everything that flows from that. This is supported by Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution, due process, Article 1, Section 17 of the Idaho constitution. Your Honor, there was no warrant for several phases of the search that led to the IG work genetic genealogy. And we think every single one of those stages. A warrant was required. None was given. And so this must be suppressed. She's saying all the goods they got after getting that hit have to be suppressed and cannot be used because they're, in essence, the fruit of the poisonous tree.

[Howard Bloom]

Exactly. And if you look at what they had before then, there's not much, except for one thing. After Kohberger is arrested, he's in a Pennsylvania jail. And they do a cheek swab. And the DNA from that cheek swab matches the DNA on the button of the knife sheath. That is pretty substantial evidence. But if they can get that thrown out, that will make a case that seems pretty much a shut case to be more open than shut. And there's going to be a. Or it's a possibility of a Franks hearing. That's a judicial process named after a 1978 Supreme Court case where evidence was thrown out because the police had falsified information to get their warrants. The judge has not said he will have this Franks hearing, but he has raised the possibility, and he's asked the lawyers to keep time available to have such a hearing.

[Megyn Kelly]

And if that's not what the prosecution wanted to hear. The prosecution wanted to hear, there's no need for a hearing. This is ridiculous. You know, irrespective of how we got to Brian Kohlberger's father as being related to the person whose DNA was on the knife sheath, we know it is Brian Coburger's DNA because we ultimately took a cheek swab that shows it was him. But the. But the. So the. The problem for the prosecution is the judge is not saying no. He's keeping the door open. He might actually have a hearing on this. So he's a little. At least a little interested. But can I just say this to what you just said, Howard? The DNA. The DNA matching Kohlberger directly is absolutely devastating. There's no question it's a terrible fact for the defense. But as I understand her argument, Ann Taylor's, it's that you would never have been cheek swabbing Bryan Kohlberger if you hadn't been doing the shenanigans with the DNA and 23andMe. Like she's saying, you can't even use the cheek swab because it, too, is fruit of the poisonous tree.

[Howard Bloom]

That is what she's arguing. That's part of her argument. But also at that hearing, something else was revealed which is perhaps even more dramatic and makes her case even more substantial.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so hold on. But before we get to that, let me finish up this part. I know there's a lot of. Lot of stuff to discuss, so just so the audience knows, that's what she's trying to argue, she's trying to say everything that followed as a result of you figuring out that Ryan Kohlberger's DNA, his dad's DNA, was traceable from that knife sheath, has to be removed. You have to get rid of it, including the cheek swab. Now, the judge did not seem like he was gonna do that. He seemed very into the actual cheek swab, and he didn't sound like a man who thinks that's fruit of any poisonous tree. But here he is, Judge Hitler, talking about that DNA match in SOP 43. There's a DNA match between the DNA and the sheath. And Mr. Kohberger. Isn't that probable cause? Every day and twice on Sunday. Not in this context. Not in this context. Because of the IGG work. That's. Again, she's saying the investigative genetic genealogy undermines it and makes it unusable. Is that. Is that basically what happened?

[Howard Bloom]

That's basically what happened. But also, if they throw it out, there's really not much there. I mean, you have to. In many ways, it was a perfect crime, except for the leaving the knife sheath behind. Consider the house was. There was so much blood in the house that it was coming out of the sides of the house. It was coming down the foundation of the. Of the building at 1122 King Road. And yet no blood was ever found on Kohberger. No blood was found in his car. No blood was found in his apartment. There is no evidence also of Kohberger having any connection to any of the murder victims. There's no evidence of him talking to any of them ever. Ever being in the house, of him stalking them on the Internet. There's no murder weapon. There's no motive. Even so, without this DNA evidence, the case against Kohberger becomes a lot more problematic.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, but how about the fact that. I mean, the best fact, I think, other than the DNA match, is the fact that when the police went to arrest him in the Poconos in December, this crime was committed the month before in November. My God. Is it 2022 now? I'm trying to. I'm losing track.

[Howard Bloom]

Yes.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, 2022, when they arrested him in his home, back in his parents home in December, he was there putting his trash into individual little baggies that would. Were being disposed of in the neighbor's trash can. That is terrible. Very incriminating.

[Howard Bloom]

That is very incriminating. Yes, but if she. Ann Taylor, the defense attorney, is trying to get that the FBI and the police coming into his house. She's trying to get that thrown out. The terms of this. She's claiming it was an unlawful assault without the necessary warrants to arrest him in his house. She's raised everything, of course, as any.

[Megyn Kelly]

Good defense lawyer will, but that one's. I'm. I'm. We've heard her out on the genetic genealogy thing. You were right. And she was right that there was some funny business going on, from the sound of it. But there's no way she's getting out the FBI what they Found upon arresting him. No way. And it's just a terrible damn fact. I don't. You know, but to go back to your first point, I firmly believe Kohlberger committed this crime. But what's fascinating is how good he was at covering it. Up to your point, there's no murder weapon. And she reiterated these points. So these are all updated. Now, we've been speculating, but she was on the record with. They haven't found a murder weapon. They did not find any blood. Howard, she said this on Brian. On any of his belongings or even anywhere in that car that they practically dissected.

[Howard Bloom]

Yes. I mean, they took apart the brake gears. They were looking all over for any blood. No blood in his student apartment at Washington State University. Nowhere. It was a perfect crime in many ways, except. Except for leaving behind the knife sheath.

[Megyn Kelly]

Such a massive, massive error. But what about the car and the phone evidence? You know, because when we read the police affidavit before his arrest, it was white. White car, Hyundai Elantra. They changed the year once they started to narrow in on Kohlberger because they had had the years wrong. But then they said, okay, It's. Yeah, it's 15. It's not just 16. Anyway, whatever his car was. And we've seen that car around, you know, the, the murder house many times, according to the cops. And also his phone records show that he was in the vicinity of the murder house over and over, including the. The night before. They didn't have him there during the murder hours because his phone was off. But then the next morning, he appeared to go back before they had found the bodies in the 9am hour. So speak to that.

[Howard Bloom]

Here's what the defense is going to say, and I think it's a fairly convincing argument, especially in a death penalty case. You have a white Hyundai Elantra by the house, but you have no proof that that's Coburger's car. You never see the license plate on any of the videos. You never see the man behind the wheel in any of those videos. They're all obscured. So there are lots of white Hyundai Elantras around. They can't make that connection directly. Then when you have the cell phone tower triangulation, that puts him in the neighborhood of the murder house. Well, it's a 10 mile radius. In a town like Moscow, 10 miles takes up a lot of territory, a lot of neighborhoods. You never have any proof that he ever parked in front of the house, his car ever came to a halt in front of the house. You can speculate but you can't prove it. Are these inferences enough to condemn a man to death? It might be hard for a jury.

[Megyn Kelly]

What is the seven minute screw up on the timeline by the cops?

[Howard Bloom]

Well, it seems the cops, when they were tracking the white Hyundai Elantra that night, made an error. They got the timelines wrong, whether accidentally or deliberately, but off by seven minutes. And they put the car that they allege is Coburger's closer to Moscow at the time. But the defense is saying that because of this screw up, which no one seems to be arguing that the cops got this time, incorrect. This would have allowed Kohberger to be driving away from Moscow and to this state park where they claim he was at the time of the murders. That would seem to substant. Yes. Stargazing on a cloudy night at four in the morning when the temperatures are a little below freezing.

[Megyn Kelly]

My gosh. All right, so it's just. It's a screw up by the cops that won't be helpful to the prosecutors in trying to show this case was done by the book. All T's crossed, all I's dotted. All right, so that's some of the stuff. I'm amazed. I'm amazed that at this point in the case she's saying openly there's no blood evidence tying him to the crime. I thought for sure they'd find something. You know, that with all the searches they did of his apartment or his car, his clothing, there'd be some speck of the four victims blood. This is a brutal murder done by Knife K Bar Knife in the middle of the night, these four beautiful college students asleep in their beds or in their rooms at least. And he is alleged to have killed them in the course of 12 minutes, all four of them. You'd get blood all over you, Howard.

[Howard Bloom]

There was so much blood in the house that. But it was, as I said before, coming out of the foundation of the building. And yet make it more. Even more interesting, more dramatic, it was revealed that they did find blood in the house. Unidentified blood in the house. But it wasn't CO Burgers.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, this is. Oh, wait, so wait, hold one second before we get to that. That's an important development, but think about it. Because many of us believe that he had on like a worker's suit because we saw that that was. He bought one via Amazon. Like, like a painter suit. You know, that would cover up your whole.

[Howard Bloom]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Everything you're wearing and that. That's. He did that for a reason. Right. He knew he was going to get Bloody, but. And maybe he had those little booties that, you know, like when the heating guy comes to fix your heater, he puts on before he walks into your house. But he would have like think about it. He's, he's sneaking out of the house covered in blood. Where did he, where does he take the stuff off? Right. According to them, the eyewitness saw him, which would have shaken him. He wouldn't have wanted to be hanging out in the house, disrobing, changing out of his workman suit and his booties if he's wearing them. He must have done that in the car. You would think he would have done that in the car and then disposed of this along with a murder weapon on the way home. And we'll get to the eyewitness, which is the most interesting thing of the whole day. But pause there. We'll get to the blob, we'll get to the eyewitness. So if you put, if you got into your car with a bloodied jumpsuit and a bloodied pair of like those slide on booties, there should be blood evidence in the car.

[Howard Bloom]

Yes. And there was nothing in his trunk. They've taken the part, the car apart, top from bottom. The only scenario possible is that before he got into his car, he had a garbage bag. He put all the clothes he was wearing in a garbage bag and drove off basically in his underwear. And that was clean. But where is the clothes he was wearing that night? Where's the garbage bag? Where is the murder weapon? No one can find it. They've been looking for two years now, two and a half years, and they don't have a trace.

[Megyn Kelly]

I mean, he did quite a job of disposing of that murder weapon and those clothes. That's all you'd need. I mean, it'd be ball game, he'd be done. He'd be total toast. I've often wondered if he managed to put it up in a tree somehow, like instead of down, instead of digging ground, which, if they'd gotten enough search crews out there, might have been identified. Is there any chance.

[Howard Bloom]

I think he probably threw it into the Snake River. He would drive him back. The Snake river sort of came by the territory. Could have just tossed it anywhere near there. Or it's possible that he went up to that park that he's using as his alibi. He could have gone to that park after the murder as he's driving around perhaps, and then left it somewhere up there.

[Megyn Kelly]

Just mind boggling. There's so much blood. The house is bleeding four dead young 20s and, you know, teenagers, in the course of 12 minutes, there would be blood all over you. How. How did he get it to the point where there was no blood in the car? I just. That's a big mystery for me. It's a big question in this case.

[Howard Bloom]

Okay, but let's do a big question for the jury.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah. On the subject of blood, what you were going to say. We learned about those two other spots of blood.

[Howard Bloom]

In the course of the hearing on January 23, Ann Taylor, Kohlberger's attorney, revealed that there has been blood found in the house belonging to two unknown males. The blood was found on a banister, a handrail going up to the second floor, and also inside a glove outside the front of the house. Blood from two unknown people. Now, this was a party house, so you can imagine there'd be fingerprints on the handrail. But what reason is there for blood? And what reason is for there to be blood on the glove? And if, you know, they would belong to someone who had gone to the house during one of the parties, well, how hard would have been for the authorities to track down the fraternity boys who came in and out of the house and getting blood samples from them. But to this day, two and a half years later, they still have not been able to identify the blood. When the judge heard this, he said in open court, are you saying that Kohberger had other people working with him? This doesn't mean Kohberger wasn't involved, but there could have been accomplices. Accomplices. This throws out, you know, a new mystery into the case. And here is how Ann Taylor is using it. She says the real question is how did the knife sheath get there? She is now going to argue in the course of the trial that these two unknown male, either one of them or both of them, put the knife sheath on the bed. They were involved in the murder, and Kohberger, prior to the murder, had somehow innocently touched the knife sheath. The DNA on the knife sheath is just touch DNA. And she is claiming that, or will claim at the trial that this was done innocently by Kohberger. It's a argument that can raise a lot of doubts. I believe in a jury's mind and the prospects prospect that there could have been accomplices in the murder further complicates the case.

[Megyn Kelly]

Did the prosecution, did the FBI do any genetic genealogy on the DNA from the blood?

[Howard Bloom]

All I know is what was revealed in the court, and the court referred to it as unknown males. And, you know, it seems that they.

[Megyn Kelly]

Can'T track it down on how not one, but two men's DNA got on this crime scene. Howard?

[Howard Bloom]

Well, I'll throw out a hypothesis, and again, it's just a hypothesis, and maybe it's a sketchy one, but I believe Coburg was guilty. I can't get around the cheek swab DNA that ties him there. So if he was out to commit the perfect crime, if he was a student of forensics, he could have taken a vial of blood with him, he could have put it on the banister, he could have taken a glove with blood already embedded in it and left it at the crime scene. And he could have done this deliberately to put this police, the authorities to look for two other people. And he would have meanwhile been just gotten away with it. It all would have worked if he hadn't left the knife sheath behind.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's a fascinating theory. All I could think of when you were saying it was, of course, the famous Johnny Cochran, if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. I bet you anything that glove does not fit Brian Kohlberger's hand. And you know, if this is true, right? Like, what if he, as this, you know, he's just getting his PhD in criminology. He's a TA in criminology. All he does is study crime. And apparently he was very good, a very good student of it, very annoying and irritating to everybody he worked with at Washington University. But what if he really did do that? What if somehow he had access to somebody's blood? I don't know how he would have gotten it, but there is some speculation this may not have been his first crime, if this was his crime. It was so meticulous and well handled. Perhaps this wasn't his first rodeo. And what if. What if that really was like an homage almost, you know, the two gloves. Reasonable doubt, right?

[Howard Bloom]

And it would have worked. And, you know, the police to this day can't identify whose blood that was. And again, if he hadn't left the knife sheath there, I don't think they would have been able to ever get to him.

[Megyn Kelly]

My God, Such a colossal error on his part. I know this is a weird place to go, but I'd give anything to have been there when he realized he forgot it, you know, to see the look, the look come over his face when he realized his perfect crime had been foiled by him losing something as basic as the knife sheath, as incriminating as the knife sheath, and then just praying to God that all the times he handled it with Gloves on, protected him from fingerprints or anything that would tie him to it. And yet he wasn't careful enough.

[Howard Bloom]

And yet, if his lawyers can get the evidence on the knife sheath thrown out because of FBI overzealousness, it can turn the whole case upside down. And an innocent man could be found. I mean, a guilty man could be found. Not. Not innocent, but not guilty.

[Megyn Kelly]

Not guilty. All right, now we have to talk about the eyewitness, but before we do, I want to say this. This is the first time I really, really thought about the DNA. Now that they've been caught, right, the FBI, they shouldn't have used those private company databases. They did. They're obviously much bigger because a lot more people would give their DNA if they knew it was gonna stay private, not be available to law enforcement. So they did, and that's how they found Brian Kohlberger's dad. To me, there's actually no chance of the judge suppressing the genetic genealogy, the touch DNA or anything because of that, because that is a violation of the terms of service. I assume it's Ancestry DNA and 23andMe.

[Howard Bloom]

I don't know, but I think MyHeritage is MyHeritage DNA. That was the one site that was cited in court.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay, so that's a violation of the terms of service of that company. That company has rules that law enforcement's not supposed to go on there. But I don't think there's a law saying you've broken the law as a cop. If you go on there, it's just like the cop violated a term of service of a private company. So that's between the cop and the company. Maybe the police department gets sued over that, But I don't see how that helps the defendant whose DNA was uploaded.

[Howard Bloom]

I agree with you. I think they're. They're just trying to create as many arguments as they can to force the defense, trying to force the issue. I do think Kohberger's relatives, if they wanted to, could sue the police department, the FBI who did this. I think the FBI agents who did this could be reprimanded by the Justice Department. Those things could happen, but I don't think it will affect Kohberger's case. But again, I was totally surprised that the judge left open the possibility of a Frank's hearing. And if this happens, if there is a Frank's hearing, then it's potentially a whole new ballgame, so.

[Megyn Kelly]

Interesting. Okay, let's get to Dylan Mortensen, Right. Who is the eyewitness. He went in in the middle of the night, he killed four roommates. But there was one roommate, there's another roommate who wasn't there. And there was this roommate Dylan, shown here, and she is what they called an eyewitness. In the affidavit, she said she saw a man of medium build with bushy eyebrows, wearing, like, a Covid mask, that they made eye contact with one another. She was frozen in a frozen shock phase. And he went by her. She went back into her room. She locked the door. She stayed in her room until almost noon the next day as her roommates were bleeding to death. No one can understand the decision making, but no one's been in such a situation. I don't understand what happened with Dylan. No one does. But talk about, like, your witness collapsing. She may not even be able to give the prosecution what I just said.

[Howard Bloom]

Exactly what happened was what you related was happened. In the first interview the police had with Dylan over that week, and the next week that followed, there were three more interviews. Those three interviews, she seemed to change her story. She said that perhaps it was sort of a dream she was seeing. She couldn't be sure. Then she said that one of the victims had gone down the stairs, and that wasn't possible because the victim had died in her bed. And then she admitted finally that she was just too drunk. Too drunk was the words that Ann Taylor used to come to any reasonable consideration of what happened that night. And then finally, on the fourth interview, just before they were going to arrest Kohberger in Pennsylvania, the Idaho cops showed her a picture of Kohberger and asked, can you identify him? And she said, no, I can't. And that really, really weakens her use as a witness between being too drunk, between saying that she might have been dreaming the whole thing, and then being not being able to identify the photograph. Well, the prosecution's big witness as. I don't know, even though she'll testify.

[Megyn Kelly]

At the trial, I don't know if she will either. And that may have been the. The point of her changing her testimony. Like, picture a scenario in which she's just too terrified to sit in a courtroom across from this guy. And also in front of the public, which, I mean, she didn't have anything to do with these crimes. It's just, you know, there's a fair amount of, like, what kind of a person would go back into their room and not call 911 after, you know, she's saying she's so afraid of this person. She went into shock. You know, it's just hard to understand. I'm not trying to be unforgiving towards her.

[Howard Bloom]

I don't want, you know, Pune, her character. I mean, who knows what's going on in anyone's mind? But not only does she not call the police for eight hours, the first people she calls are not an ambulance, not the police, but she calls fraternity people to come and come to the house. They come and they call the police.

[Megyn Kelly]

And they are the ones we believe. Now, Howard, who found the bodies?

[Howard Bloom]

Yes. There's a new video that just was released last week, and you can see Ethan's twin brother. There actually were triplets sitting outside the house the moment when the police arrived, and he's wearing a pink sweatshirt, sitting by a dumpster with his head in his hands. It's a very poignant video.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow. So she. Because that was always one of the big mysteries, that it was somebody else. It wasn't Dylan who called 911 when ultimately the authorities were called. And we didn't know who it was, but now we believe it was Dylan. The fraternity brothers who she called to come over to the house.

[Howard Bloom]

Yes, the fraternity brother, the actual fraternity brother who made the call was Ethan's best friend. And the police have never released that 911 call. I imagine it will be played at the trial.

[Megyn Kelly]

That is unbelievable. So she is saying she doesn't know if she actually saw him or if it was her mind playing with her. She conceded that she had a lot to drink and was too inebriated to remember anything that happened that night with any authority. And when they showed her a photo of Coburger after the fact, she failed to identify him as the intruder she had seen. These are terrible facts.

[Howard Bloom]

Not a very good witness.

[Megyn Kelly]

No, no, she's not going to be helpful at all. And it's unfortunate their case doesn't rise or fall on her, but, boy, you'd much rather have her say, I'll never forget those bushy eyebrows. And if I see those eyes again, I'll know them. And then say, there they are right there at defense table.

[Howard Bloom]

Right. And what's making all these doubts about the case have even more weight? There's a bill that's just been introduced in the Idaho legislature. It was at beginning of January, where right now the death penalty is administered through a chemical injection. And then if the chemicals aren't available, then there is a firing squad. Well, the Idaho legisl new bill wants to get rid of the chemical injections and just make it a firing squad. Wow. They are demanding their pound of flesh in a sense and that's going to, you know, going to weigh on the jury, too, I think.

[Megyn Kelly]

Wow. I don't know. I'm fine with the death penalty. I really am. I, like O'Reilly, always used to say he was against it because he thought it was too easy on the defendant. You know, he wanted them to suffer in prison. I just feel like if Brian Coburg committed these crimes, he killed these four young, beautiful people in the prime of their lives. I'd have absolutely no qualms at all seeing him shot down by a firing squad. I might actually celebrate it.

[Howard Bloom]

Well, you might be able to get on the jury then.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, well, maybe I'll at least go out there. I don't. I just feel like I have no empathy for a person like that. Again, it's not totally consistent with my Catholic faith, but it's just how I genuinely feel. I just feel like those people shouldn't be allowed to roam the earth any longer. But I have to be honest. I don't like the fact that all the supporting evidence is falling apart. And, you know, when we talk about how the cheek swab matched Bryan Kohlberger, what we're saying is the cheek swab, Brian Kohlberger's DNA was definitely on the knife sheath. That's what that proves. It was his DNA on the knife sheath. But let's be honest, all that really proves is that he touched that knife sheath at some point. It does not mean murder.

[Howard Bloom]

Exactly. Ann Taylor's big question, and which her defense is all going to be based around, is how did the knife sheath get in that bedroom? Who could have put it there? It wasn't Bryan Coburger.

[Megyn Kelly]

Right. And if there's, you know, if, like, if the car evidence is falling apart. Right. Like, it's true, you can never see the driver and the. Nor the license plate. Right. You can't see the license plate?

[Howard Bloom]

No, you can't see the license plate. You can't see the driver. And it took the FBI three shots until they were able to identify the car. So Ann Taylor is going to argue it took the FBI three times. Maybe it should have taken them four times and they would have finally gotten it right.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then the cell phone hits, they're. They're helpful, but they're not ball game. But without a motive, without a connection. Go ahead. What are you going to say?

[Howard Bloom]

The cell phone hits are 10 miles in a town like Moscow, you could be, you know, on the other side of town seeing someone. I mean, he went.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's what Ann Taylor said at the hearing. Did the prosecution push back at that? On that at all? Because I've definitely heard prosecutors argue. No, they can be more specific than.

[Howard Bloom]

That was so interesting to me at the hearing. The prosecution didn't really argue any of her points. When she said it was an outright lie. That was her words. Outright lie that he had stalked any of the victims. They didn't argue. They went along with that. That there was no blood evidence. They didn't argue. There were no dog hairs found anywhere on Kohberger. They didn't argue. They seemed to be conceding all these points except for the DNA evidence.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's not good enough. That's not good enough. Because it'd be one thing if his blood were at the scene. And they. And that was a match to the cheek swab. What we're saying, the cheek squab matched. Was that one piece of touch DNA on the knife sheath, which I realize is a good fact for the prosecution, but it's not ball game. It's maybe. Maybe he somehow touched the knife at a friend's house. Maybe he touched it in a store. Maybe. I know he purchased a knife on Amazon that appears to have been a K bar knife, but maybe somebody stole that knife from him. There's a lot of loops. The prosecution is going to have to close.

[Howard Bloom]

I mean, you're a good lawyer. You're raising all the right questions. And now that unknown male blood has been found in the house, that raises the possibility of accomplices other people there on the murder night. Because it's not fingerprints that were found. It's blood. Would you leave blood at a party? I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

But back to our. My favorite piece of evidence, the fact that he was shoving his garbage into little baggies for disposal in the neighbor's trash. The cops had already realized he was disposing of his trash in the neighbors the night the FBI raided his parents home in the Poconos back home in Pennsylvania when he went on winter break is just absolutely devastating. Though I will acknowledge it is possible a crafty defense attorney will find some willing family member or someone to say there was a reason for that. Like he. He's. He's got ocd. He always did this. He'd done it for years. We didn't know why. I don't know why that then if he had to put his things in Ziploc baggies, he couldn't have put it out in his own trash. Had to go in the neighbor's trash. But that's a terrible fact for the defense.

[Howard Bloom]

Well, the defense is going to try to get around that in one way is that Kohberger's family, parents lived in a sort of gated community and they had a garbage service. The FBI and the Pennsylvania State Police got Coburger's garbage from this garbage company. They. The defense is going to claim they did not have a valid search warrant. A valid warrant to get this garbage from the private carding company. I don't know if that's going to hold up in court, but that's the argument they're going to raise.

[Megyn Kelly]

So the best case scenario there would be they exclude the fact that they found the Kohlberger's trash in the neighbor's trash bin, but it would not exclude them finding him shoving his trash into individual Ziploc baggies at the moment of the arrest in the middle of the night. That sounds like a criminal with something to hide, not an honest criminology student who's been, you know, wrongly accused.

[Howard Bloom]

I agree. But at the same time, he's a very strange young man. He has visual snow. He was a heroin addict. He has strange practices. He goes off at four in the morning to look at stars in a wilderness park on a foggy night. Would he put his garbage into separate bags? Who knows?

[Megyn Kelly]

My God. This is. Howard's just giving us a preview of how this is going to sound at trial.

[Howard Bloom]

I mean, it's going to be a very interesting trial. Even the jury selection is going to be interesting.

[Megyn Kelly]

And they're going to like, this is a good preview, because Ann Taylor is going to pick apart every piece of the prosecution's case. Like, every piece. Nothing will be allowed without objection, without a counter narrative. And all she needs is one juror. She just needs one to say, I don't have total confidence. I have reasonable doubt.

[Howard Bloom]

And in a murder case, you really gotta be sure. If you're sending someone off either for a lethal injection or a firing squad, you want to make sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're doing the right thing.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, my God. This makes me feel sick. I have, like, acid in my stomach from this discussion. I just. I wish they had more. I know. No, it's. It was an important hearing. You learned a ton. We corresponded privately. I was like, oh, my God. Well, we've all been paying attention to Trump, Trump, Trump. Stuff's really been happening in this very important case that. I mean, truly, this is. We laugh because it's like, now it's easier to just talk about the legalities of it. But these four beautiful college students and Once again, they are Madison Mogan, Kaylee Goncalves, Zannic Rinodle and Ethan Chapin, murdered right in the prime of their life, November 2022. And their families deserve justice. And they deserved it before this August. It's been too long. Did they talk at all about moving the trial date or do we think it's on for August?

[Howard Bloom]

Well, they're trying. I think it will take place. I don't think this judge is going to delay any longer, but the defense is still asking for more time. We'll see if he grants it. I don't believe he will, but no. I was surprised he raised the possibility of a Frank's hearing. That shocked me.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, the families deserve just let's have a trial. There's not nothing that's going to be gained by a delay by the defense or the prosecution, frankly. Thank you so much Howard Bloom. And people can get your latest reporting on this case in airmail.

[Howard Bloom]

In airmail and in my book, when the Night Comes Falling.

[Megyn Kelly]

Awesome. Okay. Check out his book. I've read it. It was great. And Airmail is a subscription publication that you can get. Just Google it and you'll see. It's run by Graydon Carter, former guy behind Vanity Fair. Thanks to all of you for watching and listening. And don't forget, we will be back in just a couple of hours with our full show. Don't miss that. Talk to you later. Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No bs, no additional agenda, and no fear. Some therapists say that debt can make people feel desperate and helpless. It can ruin your sleep, creep into your relationships. It can wreck happiness. But there are ways to get help. Let me tell you about Done With Debt. They have aggressive new strategies to end your debt fast. Done With Debt stands between you and the bill collectors. They tirelessly negotiate to slash balances, eliminate interest, and stop the crushing penalties. All without loans or bankruptcy. Done With Debt has one goal. To wipe out your debt for good. Before you even consider making another payment, consider a visit to donewithdebt.com speak with one of their strategists for free and tell them I sent you. But you do need to hurry because some of these debt solutions are time sensitive and you don't want to miss out. Go to donewithdebt.com donewithdebt.com Building a business may feel like a big jump, but on deck small business loans can help keep you afloat with lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to 250,000. OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated OND as an online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtibank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. When living with cancer, it's important to be informed and know what to expect. But finding the right information can feel overwhelming. That's why understandcancertogether.com is here to help. We've gathered practical information and resources based on where you are in your cancer journey so that you can focus on the important conversations and decisions of today. Understand cancertogether. Com helping you navigate life with cancer one moment at a time.