Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026

Summary

The Megyn Kelly Show: Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026

Release Date: March 14, 2025

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Introduction

In the fifth episode of "Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance," Megyn Kelly delves deeper into the unresolved case of baby Lisa Irwin's disappearance. This episode, titled "Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage," focuses on the elusive figure John Tanko, also known as "Jersey," who has been a person of interest in the investigation for over a decade. Megyn collaborates with experts Bill Stanton and Phil Houston to strategize how to confront Tanko and extract crucial information that could shed light on the case.

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Identifying and Locating John Tanko

[02:50] Megyn Kelly: Introduces John Tanko, highlighting his background as a handyman with a notorious rap sheet and his connection to the Irwin family through his ex-girlfriend, Megan Wright. After 12+ years of evasion, Megyn reveals that Tanko has been located in New Jersey, recently arrested for shoplifting in 2022.

[03:10] Megyn Kelly: Shows footage of Tanko in a red sweatshirt on his bike, confirming his identity and location.

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Strategizing the Confrontation

[03:22] Megyn Kelly: Begins a strategy session with Bill Stanton and Phil Houston to determine the best approach to get Tanko to talk.

[03:31] Megyn Kelly: Recaps the difficulty in locating Tanko, emphasizing the importance of devising an effective method to elicit information.

[03:59] Phil Houston: Suggests a non-confrontational tactic by luring Tanko out, allowing Megyn to pose critical questions without immediate resistance.

[04:29] Megyn Kelly: Outlines her initial plan to introduce herself and express a desire to investigate the allegations surrounding Tanko, aiming to create an open dialogue.

[05:35] Bill Stanton: Recommends maintaining a minimal and safe distance while approaching Tanko to reduce his resistance and increase the chances of obtaining valuable information.

Notable Quote:

Phil Houston [04:29]: "If you go knocking on his door, it’s very easy just to not even answer or just slam it on your face."

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Executing the Plan: The Confrontation with Tanko

[14:28] Megyn Kelly: Describes outfitting herself with hidden cameras to document the confrontation while maintaining a discreet approach.

[16:00] Megyn Kelly: Details the actual encounter with Tanko, who initially denies involvement and exhibits defensive behavior.

Key Interaction Highlights:

• Tanko's Denial: He denies any involvement in Lisa's disappearance, emphasizing his lack of connection to the Irwin family.
• Suspicion Over Phones: Tanko is questioned about fingerprints on missing cell phones, leading to inconsistent statements.
• Show of Defiance: Despite Megyn’s non-confrontational approach, Tanko displays signs of deception and evasiveness.

Notable Quotes:

John Tanko [17:08]: "I’d rather not, because my lawyer told me not to talk to anybody. It could be a death penalty case, and I don’t want to have to sit in prison for five years, you know, go to trial."

Megyn Kelly [17:38]: "I don’t have any involvement whatsoever."

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Analyzing the Interview: Signs of Deception

Post-interview, Megyn and her team dissect Tanko's responses, identifying behavioral cues indicative of deception.

[38:17] Bill Stanton: Points out that Tanko’s use of “I don’t have any involvement” instead of a straightforward “I didn’t do it” signals potential deceit.

[44:19] Megyn Kelly: Observes Tanko’s defensive posture and the use of a ladder as a barrier, interpreting it as a subconscious attempt to feel safe and control the interaction.

Notable Quote:

Bill Stanton [44:19]: "He was standing up in a straighter posture when you got there. He wasn’t leaning on the ladder in that manner. And when you guys walked up, then he immediately leaned over and he hunched down."

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Expert Insights: Unraveling the Deception

Bill Stanton and Phil Houston provide in-depth analysis of Tanko's behavior during the interview.

[51:25] Bill Stanton: Asserts Tanko’s likely involvement based on deception patterns and historical connections to the case.

[52:27] Phil Houston: Highlights the critical nature of Tanko admitting to finding the phones, interpreting it as a pivotal moment that could equate to an admission of guilt.

[53:52] Megyn Kelly: Reflects on Tanko's unexpected willingness to talk and the implications of his statements regarding being cleared by law enforcement.

Notable Quotes:

Phil Houston [52:27]: "If you think about it for that one moment, let's postulate that he is guilty... if he had the phone, that tells us he was in the house..."

Bill Stanton [57:37]: "He didn't say, I wasn't there. That's his agenda in his mind."

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Concluding Insights and Next Steps

Megyn Kelly and her team conclude that Tanko exhibits strong signs of deception, reinforcing the theory of his involvement in Lisa Irwin's disappearance. They emphasize the need for a fresh investigation, urging law enforcement to reopen the case with renewed vigor and transparency.

[63:00] NETCredit (Jim Spellman): Critiques the police handling of the case, advocating for a high-profile re-examination and greater public involvement to uncover new leads.

[66:03] Megyn Kelly: Discusses the chilling absence of any remains and entertains the possibility that Lisa may not have been killed, proposing alternative scenarios such as her being sold or given away.

[67:44] Megyn Kelly: Emphasizes the need for renewed efforts to bring closure to the Irwin family and the community, highlighting the lack of significant progress despite years of investigation.

Notable Quote:

Jim Spellman [64:57]: "There has to be a nexus to this house to know there’s a baby there... it's just unacceptable..."

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Conclusion

This episode of "The Megyn Kelly Show" offers a compelling investigation into the disappearance of Baby Lisa Irwin, focusing on the enigmatic John Tanko. Through strategic planning, covert filming, and expert analysis, Megyn and her team uncover unsettling signs of deception that could be crucial in resolving the decade-old mystery. The episode underscores the persistent gaps in the official investigation and calls for a revitalized, transparent approach to finally bring answers and justice to Lisa Irwin's case.

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Call to Action

Megyn Kelly urges listeners to contribute any information they may have regarding Baby Lisa’s disappearance by reaching out through various channels, including email and crime tip lines, to aid in the reopening and advancement of the case.

Contact Information:

• Email: [e-mail]
• Crime Tips: kccrimestoppers.com | Phone: [phone]

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Note: The episode also contains several advertisement segments interspersed throughout the transcript, which have been excluded from this summary to focus solely on the investigative content.

Transcript

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[Megyn Kelly]

I'm Megyn Kelly.

Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show and episode five of our special series Megyn Kelly Investigates. We're tackling the disappearance of baby Lisa Irwin. One in two adults have high blood pressure. Many don't even know it. That's a ticking time bomb. But here's the good news. You have the power to take control naturally with 120Life. 120Life is a blend of great tasting super fruit juices that can actually help lower your blood pressure naturally. 120Life is formulated with ingredients that have been shown to support healthy blood pressure levels. It's trusted by hundreds of health professionals and people have seen real measurable results. You can try it yourself risk free with their two week trial. Just go to 120120life.com and use the code MK to save 15% and get free shipping. You can track your progress with a simple blood pressure monitor. Watch your numbers drop and feel the difference. They are so sure that 120Life can noticeably lower your blood pressure in two weeks that they will give you your money back if you're not satisfied. So you have nothing to lose. But those high blood pressure numbers. Go to 120life.com that's 120life.com and remember to use the code MK to save 15% off your order. This is serious. This is your life we're talking about. 120Life can help take control of your life and your health today. John Tenko, nickname Jersey. The handyman in the neighborhood with a long rap sheet. The ex boyfriend of Megan Wright. The woman whose phone was called by the Irwins stolen phone the night their baby little Lisa went missing. And the guy who tantalizingly told attorney.

Cindy Short he just happened to find.

Three cell phones and then tossed them somewhere around the time the baby went missing. You've heard his name again and again in this series. Everyone wants to hear from him and find out what he knows. Well after 12 plus years we found him.

If you're watching, that's him in the red sweatshirt on the bike.

We tracked him back to New Jersey where he was arrested for shoplifting in 2022. Now that we know where he is.

It'S time to figure out the best.

Way to get him to talk. Here's part of my strategy session with our go to experts Bill Stanton and Phil Houston.

So unbelievably we found Jersey after all this time. Nobody could find him. Cindy Short found him but the cops apparently didn't know where he was for some time. Jim Spellman who's been doing yeoman's work on this case couldn't find him. We found him and now we gotta decide what to do with him. So gotta figure out what the approach should be. I'm perfectly happy to just go knock on his door and see what happens.

[Phil Houston]

Well, if you go knocking on his door, it it's very easy just to not even answer or just slam it on your face. What I'm thinking about doing is luring him out and then you come between him and the door which may give you that precious one line, that question that will hook him and then he will want to stay outside. And then when he comes out, he doesn't even have to know we're together. I got your back. And then you confront them.

[Megyn Kelly]

I just want to say that the way I would normally do this is I would go, I would ring the doorbell and I would say, are you John? Hi, I'm Megyn Kelly and I'm trying to investigate what happened to this poor missing baby. You know, a lot of allegations have been made about you. Will you talk to me? I'd love to give you the chance to answer some of the things that have been said about you.

[Phil Houston]

It's all in the approach. You see the way I'm proposing it, you get two bites of the Apple.

[Bill Stanton]

Megan, if we want the outcome that we can actually get him to open up even a little bit, you and Bill need to stay together. And with you ringing the doorbell, Bill standing slightly behind you, if he's outside, then you approach him. Megan, you would approach him first. Bill would stay, would stay back. Bill needs to keep you within near arm's reach, distance. If we want to get information from him, we need his resistance at the lowest level possible. And I believe, Bill, you need to give her the highest level of safety and security possible.

[Megyn Kelly]

So how can you just. Can you describe that, Phil? So how. How would that look in your scenario?

[Bill Stanton]

Well, I loved your introduction. Hi, I'm Megyn Kelly. I'd love to have a chat with you. And here's the reason. I'd love to have a chat with you. We have been working on the disappearance of Lisa for over 10 years now. And as a result of that, we know a whole lot more than we ever known to include the players that are involved. And that's why we're talking to you today. We want to get your side. I would not mention investigate or investigation. I wouldn't mention case, anything that has consequences associated with it. You just want to have a talk and a conversation. We call it a transition statement in the interrogation world, because what it does is, is it signals to that individual that everything that they have done to try and pull this off, to be successful, has failed. And that's when you would get in with the first question. What was your role in the disappearance? So presumptive question, a question you want to make sure if you can get in on camera. Is the question about the telephones, Is there any reason your fingerprints are on those telephones that went missing that night?

[Megyn Kelly]

So, you know, this is a tried.

And true technique of Phil's. We've actually seen no evidence that Tanko's fingerprints are on any cell phones.

[Bill Stanton]

You keep talking. John, you're a smart guy. You know that at some point this was going to come to this. You can help resolve this whole matter that has caused pain and anguish to the parents and to their family. You know, we're not here to argue with you or call you names or anything. And what you're doing is you're. You're limiting or minimizing the amount of questions. Because every time he answers to the lie, your job gets twice as hard to get that admission. But if you can, right off the bat can get him to listen to you, you've got a shot.

[Phil Houston]

We could talk all about the questions, but the first Phase is getting him to stay the further away. Getting him outside that front door gives her more time. Time and distance. Give me an options, because unless we get that engagement, all of this is for naught.

[Bill Stanton]

I understand, Bill, but I think you, you may have a chance to get him to open up a little bit.

[Megyn Kelly]

So Phil, psychologically at that moment, what.

Are you trying to do?

Build him up into thinking like that you actually believe he could be helpful, that he's not an adversary or a target, but that we're all in on this together without, without trying to buddy.

[Bill Stanton]

Up or cozy up to him. You don't want him to make a denial. Once they deny, that really makes your job difficult. And so when you see them start to make a denial, what the, what the. What you want to do is say their name. Whether people realize it or not, one good way to keep up, to interrupt a person, stop them from talking, is to say their name. It just. Instinctively, people shut up when they hear their name. It's a three step process. You say, john, hang on. It's a control phrase. John, hang on for a minute. Okay? And then, and then I want to hear your side of it. And you've got your hand up is the third. So, John, the control phrase and the hand up. And it's not, it's not in your face. It's. It's almost like a defensive gesture.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay. We're trying to, to stop a denial because.

[Bill Stanton]

Yes, yes, stop the denials at all costs. No matter what happens throughout the, the whole thing, just keep saying, john, let's talk about the truth. It's not easy. I mean it, I mean, if it, if it were easy, you know, we'd all. We'd have a ton more confessions than we have. But, but people do break and they break at moments for reasons we don't understand sometimes. This could be it. This could be the good.

[Phil Houston]

For the, for the sake, for the sake of just being. Taking the opposite tact, I'm going to be contrary on that. I think the last thing he's going to want to see is you, Megan. And I'm hoping he's going to get loud and in his. Loud, he may say something stupid. If we can get one tenth of what Phil's putting forth, that's TV gold because this man has never given an interview. So 30 seconds, 2 minutes, 10 minutes, an hour. You know, no one has ever been able to do this. I just don't see him changing now as we pull up to his home in the cul de sac.

[Bill Stanton]

No, I, you I'm going to do.

[Phil Houston]

Something I've never wrong.

[Bill Stanton]

Listen, you're absolutely wrong. We do this all the time.

[Phil Houston]

I will eat my shoe on Megan's camera. I hope that be happily wrong and be happily wrong.

[Bill Stanton]

I am not anticipating a full confession by any stretch, but if. If you got, for example, an acknowledgment that he had those phones and he did something with them and so forth, that's tantamount to a confession.

[Phil Houston]

No, I get it, but it's all about the engagement. Does he take the hook or not? That's. It's the opening 10 seconds. If Megan doesn't hook him in five to 10 seconds, then there's nothing.

[Bill Stanton]

Bill, I. I've talked to terrorists who are far, far more can, you know, condition not to. Not to give up information. And they talk. They talk if you approach them in the right manner.

[Megyn Kelly]

I feel like we're formulating a plan where I. I kind of like. I like what Phil is saying. Like, where we show up, we just. We're kind of open about it. We don't post, pop out with cameras. It's clearly you and me, Bill, walking to the door. You're close, but I'm, like, in the lead. And we asked to speak with him following, you know, loosely, Phil's script.

[Bill Stanton]

Yes.

[Megyn Kelly]

Now, what about Phil, right at the top, when I. I ask my first question and he gives me the line that my lawyer told me not to talk about this. I'm not talking about this.

[Bill Stanton]

Okay. You could say, john, look, if this is not about lawyers, we're not here to bring harm to anybody, including yourself. We just want the truth. And you have a very critical piece, you know, of information that will help this get resolved.

[Megyn Kelly]

So if he's talking in any way, in a confrontational way, in a confessional way, in a friendly way, I'm going to be wrestling with saying, would you mind if I bring my cameras in and we can have the same conversation? Because I think that will. That will shut it down. Now, I'd much rather have his agreement to doing it on camera. I understand why we have to do it with the undercover camera, and I think it's a good idea, but it'd be so much nicer if we could just have his agreement to do it like that.

[Phil Houston]

That's your call, you know? You know, and listen, we got the hidden camera. So you got multiple options.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, I mean, I think. And I mean, he's gone 12 years without getting caught on camera at all. It's amazing how he's managed to Dodge. So I have zero expectation he's going.

To say, yes, I'll sit down in.

Front of your camera. Yeah, but it's, there'll be a, there'll be a point if he's talking to me, where I'm going to at least try.

[Bill Stanton]

Yeah, that's what I, that's how I would have done it if I were in your shoes.

[Megyn Kelly]

Okay.

[Bill Stanton]

This scripting, this is what I and my colleagues have done for years and years and years. And it just works. It works when often when nothing else does work.

[Jim Spellman]

Wow.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, if we manage to emerge with actually any sort of meaningful comment, nevermind confession, but meaningful comment from him on this, I mean, that'll be huge. Like I say, nobody's even seen the guy.

[Bill Stanton]

You have gotten what nobody else did. You know, nobody else has.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, and honestly, just in all fairness, you, we want to go to him and give him the chance to confront these allegations that have been made. His name keeps coming up. We actually do want to hear what he has to say about all of this. This is his chance.

[Phil Houston]

All right, let's get moving. All right, we gotta go.

[Megyn Kelly]

And so on March 7, 2024, I got rigged up with hair, hidden cameras. I wore a shirt with a camera in one of the buttons and another hidden camera in a glasses case sticking out of my shirt pocket. New Jersey is a one party consent state, so we can record our conversation without obtaining Tanko's permission in case he.

Declines a traditional on camera interview.

The crew stayed in a van nearby and Bill Stanton and I walked down his street.

[Phil Houston]

This is his house right here. Here. The garage is open. He's in the backyard. So face me. Don't, don't turn around. Face me. He's just spotted us.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay.

[John Tanko]

There's chickens back there, like trying.

[Phil Houston]

He's doing his chores.

[Jim Spellman]

So he's not coming out?

[Phil Houston]

No, he's not coming out. So if we want, I'll just call him over.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably cuz he's. Now he's seen us.

[Bill Stanton]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

And he's not coming out.

[Phil Houston]

I'm just gonna ask him if I can buy those chickens. You'd be amazed. You want me to do that?

[Jim Spellman]

No. You don't want to come out?

[Megyn Kelly]

No, because we don't want to use subterfuge.

[Jim Spellman]

Right.

[Megyn Kelly]

Like, I don't want to put him on the defensive right away. Like per Phil, I think we want to say, like I think I want to go over there and say, hey.

[Phil Houston]

Let'S go to the fence and let's do It.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay.

[Phil Houston]

We're committed. You want us to do initial talk or you want me to.

[Megyn Kelly]

I do.

[Jim Spellman]

I will.

[Phil Houston]

All right.

[Jim Spellman]

John. Hi. How you doing? I'm Megan.

[John Tanko]

Kelly.

[Jim Spellman]

How's it going? Nice to see ya. What's going on here? Chickens.

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

Awesome. Two horses. You got, like, a whole farm going on back here.

[Bill Stanton]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

Thanks for talking to us. I. I've been working for 10 years on the Baby Lisa case.

[John Tanko]

I work with love.

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah. And it's been tireless for us. I mean, we're obsessed.

[Megyn Kelly]

I know.

[Jim Spellman]

You know, we. We know a lot. Now we have come to an understanding of some basics, what happened and who was involved, and we are really hoping that you can help us, that you can help us fill out some of the. Some of the story. We think it's really important to get your input, and I was wondering. Wondering if you would talk to me.

[John Tanko]

I'd rather not, because my lawyer told me not to talk to anybody. It's a. It could be a death penalty case, and I don't want to have to sit in prison for five years, you know, go to trial.

[Jim Spellman]

You know, the thing is. The thing is, it's like Deborah and Jeremy have been, you know, tortured. And so all we're trying to do is, like, sketch out the story and wondering if you can tell us what your involvement was in the disappearance of baby Lisa.

[John Tanko]

I don't have any. That's what I'm saying. None whatsoever. Yeah. I mean, the FBI vacuum died the house. If my DNA. You have a million skin cells, you go like that, they're gonna bag it up and they're gonna. They're gonna DNA it to me and I'd be trolled, no doubt about it. What do you mean their story is. Well, Deborah's story is that some just random person came to my house and kidnapped me. Right?

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah.

[John Tanko]

So now the FBI's involved. They vacuum bagged the whole house. And if my DNA was in there, like from dead skin cells, I'd be charged. It wasn't in there.

[Jim Spellman]

Did the cops talk to you?

[John Tanko]

Yeah, they told me.

[Jim Spellman]

Did they ever take DNA?

[John Tanko]

Yeah, they did? Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

Oh, what, did they, like, a saliva? They did, yeah. Did they tell you that you were cleared?

[John Tanko]

I didn't have to, but I did it anyway.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay, and did they tell you you were cleared and you were good to go?

[John Tanko]

No, they didn't. They still say it's an open case.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay, well, what we're trying to do is help them, because the way I see it is we're trying to provide them with Clothes, closure. You can help us do that and with some comfort, you know, and just figuring out what the story is. No, he's not a lawyer. He's my friend. This is Bill. Yeah, no, in another life. He's a lawyer.

[John Tanko]

They do these stories and people just trash my name. They totally trash my name.

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah.

[John Tanko]

You know what I mean? I was involved with a lot of illness activity about that, sure.

[Jim Spellman]

I mean a lot of people get mixed up in drugs and understand that happen to the guy.

[John Tanko]

Huh. What do you think should happen to.

[Phil Houston]

The person if they had.

[John Tanko]

I don't know what happened. So. I mean if it's a kidnapping or. God, forget a homicide. Motherfuck carry sticking in his on.

[Jim Spellman]

Do you think that the person who took the baby, did it spur the moment or that it was planned? Do you. You worked in the. In the neighborhood that night, right?

[John Tanko]

Like not that night, but yeah, I was in work in the neighborhood general.

[Jim Spellman]

So why would somebody have said they saw you outside of the Irwin's house that night?

[John Tanko]

People lie a lot.

[Jim Spellman]

And you didn't know the Irwins at all? Deborah and Jeremy, I think.

[John Tanko]

I'm not positive, but I think I met Deborah at a bar one time.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay. Okay.

[John Tanko]

It used to be called Bamas.

[Jim Spellman]

And I know you know Megan Wright. Yeah, we talked to her.

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

And think you guys used to date. But did she have any involvement in this whole thing?

[John Tanko]

I would doubt it. Like again, I don't know. But if the police are being honest about her getting a phone call from one of the Earl's phones, then somebody connects, she's connected. That just kind of makes sense now.

[Jim Spellman]

Did you have those phones? Because we. We understand that you told a lawyer, Cindy Short, that you found those phones.

[John Tanko]

I'm seeing whatever she wanted to hear. I didn't tell her I found those phones. I said I found phones that night, but I didn't find them.

[Jim Spellman]

No. Nothing. Oh, why?

[John Tanko]

It's because she's asked me a million questions and I didn't want to just make her happy. Whatever. What do you.

[Jim Spellman]

What do you think happened to those phones? You think the same person who has the baby has the phones?

[John Tanko]

I don't even know if the phones you missing. I don't know if that's factory fixer. No clue.

[Jim Spellman]

What did you hear about that? Anything?

[John Tanko]

No.

[Jim Spellman]

Did you. Do you ever hear anything about the phones and where they went or whether it was connected to the baby? No, nothing. Why do you think? Because you knew the neighborhood a little bit. Certainly better than we do. Why would somebody take a baby you know what?

[John Tanko]

FBI asked me the same question. I'm like, only thing I can come up with is to sell it to maybe somebody that can't have kids. You know, I mean it sounds crazy. I think out of all of this that's the best case scenario. That couldn't happen. That kid is 11 now, 13, going to school, you know, has a rich family, you know, something like that. I mean that's the best case scenario.

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah. Well, what do you think? Think? I mean I know that there were. There were a lot of people in the area who were on drugs, meth and so on. And we heard a little bit of that from Megan. Is there any chance somebody got messed up on drugs and did something to the baby?

[John Tanko]

Again? I don't know people, I don't see a happening. But it's. But not anything's possible.

[Jim Spellman]

What do you think happened?

[John Tanko]

You know what I was thinking? Parents have something to do with it. Cuz they hired all these. These lawyers. High priced death penalty lawyers. And what was the other. You know, the story just don't sound right. She got drunk and fell asleep. Woke up baby. Is that the sound? Right.

[Jim Spellman]

Well why would anybody say that they saw you outside of the Irwin's house that night?

[John Tanko]

I don't know. I don't know. But I wasn't.

[Jim Spellman]

You've never been in that house?

[John Tanko]

Never.

[Jim Spellman]

Never once.

[John Tanko]

Never once.

[Jim Spellman]

So. So if your fingerprints are on those phones, what does that tell us? Yeah, like why would your fingerprints be on those phones? I don't know, I'm. I'm just trying to figure it out.

[John Tanko]

Okay, well you're not. You're telling me this is fact that my phone. But I don't believe. Because I'm. I don't. I don't believe I ever possessed a phone.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay. And you heard that story you mentioned that one of the phones called Megan Wright that night?

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

You believe that?

[John Tanko]

Well, no police are known to lie just because they want to have a direction to go in and use. Use something as a. As a way of, you know, getting the information that they want.

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah.

[John Tanko]

Did she?

[Jim Spellman]

One of the theories that she really wanted a family, she wanted a kid.

[John Tanko]

Yeah. It's totally not true.

[Jim Spellman]

That's not true. She never said that to you. Why'd you guys break up? Why did you two break up?

[John Tanko]

Because I was scandina on parole and I had a job to go do at the Watson's house and she is.

[Phil Houston]

That throwing down the block?

[John Tanko]

Yeah, she called the police, told her I was going to be working her.

[Jim Spellman]

She called the Police and told them you were going to be at the Watson that night. Why that night?

[John Tanko]

Oh, the night that we broke up. She died.

[Phil Houston]

You out?

[John Tanko]

Yeah, we broke up. And I never talked to her again after that. Maybe, I don't know, four or five months might have went by. From when? The day we were on my show. No, no, till we broke up. To the baby locker. Never ever talked to her.

[Jim Spellman]

You didn't, you didn't go to her house?

[John Tanko]

I pulled up on the front lawn in a stolen van one time, but I didn't talk to her.

[Jim Spellman]

Did you ever set anything on fire of hers or around her?

[John Tanko]

You know they're going to be asked for that too. Said the car was on fire.

[Jim Spellman]

That wasn't you. So you got. You got questioned by the cops and the FBI?

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

Separate.

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

Two separate.

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

And they took your DNA?

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

And then how did it resolve? What did they say to you? It was all over. Was it just two sit downs? One with the cop, one with the FBI?

[John Tanko]

No, it was FBI in a. A homicide interrogation room chat. Those text came and see me actually to visit me in jail.

[Jim Spellman]

That was that scary?

[John Tanko]

Yeah, it was very scary. Oh my God. Are you kidding me?

[Jim Spellman]

You're thinking they're looking at you for possible kidnapping?

[John Tanko]

I'm thinking that they're exploring all the communists.

[Jim Spellman]

And was it just that one time? Yeah, for a few hours or how long?

[John Tanko]

A little over an hour.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay.

[John Tanko]

Maybe two.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay.

[John Tanko]

And not too long, maybe an hour.

[Jim Spellman]

Was it right after the baby went missing?

[John Tanko]

No, because I was still on the run.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay. So I have I a couple other questions. I'm sorry to take up so much of your time, but do you know who Dane Greathouse is?

[John Tanko]

Yeah, I believe I met him a couple of times. Maybe we got high together. I don't know. I already made up a rap so lyrics in it that said I'll make you disappear like me in the least one. So I don't know. That was kind of weird.

[Jim Spellman]

Is there. Is there any reason that you would have called Grain Dane Great house on the night the baby went missing? No, no.

[John Tanko]

Like I said, I only met him once or twice and we weren't really friends and we just, you know, I had happened to have something or he happened to have something. That was it. Okay, what like we exchanged numbers or talk after that or anything?

[Jim Spellman]

How about Cody Allnut?

[John Tanko]

My name sounds familiar, but I can't put a face to it.

[Jim Spellman]

Boris Dubinsky, do you know him?

[John Tanko]

I can't put a face to him and I don't Recognize the name.

[Jim Spellman]

And I'm also wondering now, is there any way you've been very generous with your time. Can we do this with. With like. Can I bring a camera person over here and we can do this properly? Okay. Cuz I love to get your side.

[John Tanko]

I hate. I hate being. What do you. What are they referring me as a link to this case? I don't want no involvement. I'm not involved. It. When you do a show, your viewers, you actually giving your viewers an option. This. This person doing. This person doing this person. Do it. This person. You see, I don't want to be one person. I don't want some people who think, God, I might have did that. That's not me.

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah.

[John Tanko]

John, if I can answer.

[Phil Houston]

You seem like a straight up guy. First time you're able to act and I really appreciate one of niggas associates to have a conversation with you to.

[John Tanko]

No, no. Like I said, I really don't want to be part of this. If there's shields and information I can give you that you can, you know, just run with it, maybe find out what happened. That's great. I don't want to be unfeeled. I don't want to do all that.

[Jim Spellman]

Y.

[John Tanko]

You got to respect that.

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah. Do you think taking her was planned or do you think it was a spur of the moment thing? What's your guess?

[John Tanko]

I don't have a guess.

[Jim Spellman]

Like, because you knew a lot of the players in the neighborhood, you know, like to me it seems too sophisticated to have a baby be sold, you know, as a. Like who would feel just steal a baby on this for the moment and then sell it.

[John Tanko]

Well, you don't know. I was spared moment. Maybe it was, but who knows? I don't know. Find a ball, you know, tell you.

[Jim Spellman]

Well, how can Deborah. How can Deborah have gotten rid of the baby's body without it being detected? You know, that's one of the things that keeps stumping me.

[John Tanko]

I don't understand.

[Jim Spellman]

Like if Deborah killed the baby inadvertently or on per. I don't. I don't think most people think if she killed the baby, it was on purpose. Maybe she dropped the baby, maybe. Whatever.

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

If she did that, she got rid of the body in a way that she fooled even the cops.

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

So how could that have happened? Like, you knew the neighborhood.

[John Tanko]

How could it happen with anybody?

[Jim Spellman]

Like, what was the backyard like? Do you know what, Describe the area a little bit around the Irwin's house.

[John Tanko]

I don't know. I've never been there.

[Jim Spellman]

But you Were. I mean, a neighborhood handyman. Right.

[John Tanko]

Well, it's only for the Watson.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay.

[John Tanko]

His hands wouldn't work anymore because he had arthritis. So if you needed me to do something, he gave me a call that night.

[Jim Spellman]

Did you work at the Watsons the night the baby went missing?

[John Tanko]

No.

[Jim Spellman]

You didn't turn on the sprinkler or off the sprinkler?

[John Tanko]

That would. There was days before. He said once the grass started growing, I didn't have to do it.

[Jim Spellman]

Oh.

[John Tanko]

He said once you start growing, you got to keep going.

[Jim Spellman]

So if. Why would a neighbor say they saw you in that area?

[John Tanko]

I don't know. It's the third time he asked me.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay. Sorry. I'm. I'm losing my own.

[John Tanko]

I don't know. People lie. I don't know.

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah.

[John Tanko]

Right now I'm in the area. I'm now first decided to swan a child.

[Jim Spellman]

Well, I'm asking you beyond. Because, you know, there are. There's the one set of neighbors that say they saw somebody who matches your description. They didn't say you with a baby. That. That night, like around midnight, do you remember that I heard that there was.

[John Tanko]

A witness that seen somebody. Karen, I didn't get all that about fits my description type.

[Jim Spellman]

See, this is.

[John Tanko]

This is. You know, it's just weird because it's like. Like I said, it's going to put in people's minds that I could have possibly had something. I don't deserve it.

[Jim Spellman]

That's. I mean, and that's not us, you know, that there are witnesses in the case saying, you know, look at. Look at this guy. As you know, and that's. We have to look into that. And we're very open minded to all the possibilities. I mean, I've said before, when I first went out there, when I arrived on scene in Kansas city, I thought 100% it was Deborah. 100%. That's what I thought. Over the years, you know, I've considered everybody. I consider you. I. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is to this moment. I don't know. But I definitely wanted to talk to you to get your. You're a lot closer to it than I am. So you got better answers than I do. What were you doing that night?

[John Tanko]

You know, if I was to. I'd tell you. Then you'd go there and I happen to be that person that sends you somewhere.

[Phil Houston]

You're looking pretty healthy now. Organic eggs.

[John Tanko]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

That's a pretty good setup.

[John Tanko]

Yeah.

[Jim Spellman]

So. Okay, so you were not in the neighborhood that night and okay, so nobody, if anybody saw somebody looking like you, it wasn't you. Is there any, anyone you think we should talk to or what can we do to help advance this? Any thoughts? Can you, can we talk for just one more minute about Cindy Short and that visit she paid you in the jail?

[John Tanko]

Cindy Short?

[Jim Spellman]

Well, the lawyer. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cuz she definitely told us that you told her you found those three phones.

[John Tanko]

And I told you I told her that, but I wasn't, I wasn't being honest. I don't even know why I said maybe I was still spun out. I don't know, I don't know why I said that.

[Jim Spellman]

She said she thought, thought at one point you were like wrestling with maybe a confession. She didn't say that you confessed anything.

[John Tanko]

That's not true.

[Jim Spellman]

That's not true.

[John Tanko]

I told him to tell her. I, it's like I'm telling you I don't know anything really.

[Jim Spellman]

Does this case.

[Bill Stanton]

I don't.

[Jim Spellman]

Do you pay attention to it? Like when it hits the news, what does it, what does it bring up for you?

[John Tanko]

You know what, there was a story about the Irwin's missing baby and went through all this stuff, it was an hour long and then I'm at the end, you know, the very last person they speak about, you know, so it kind of made me feel like that the program was designed, signed by somebody to make it appear that the story ends here with this guy. You see what I mean? Yep, that's, that's what it. And that bothered me. Great. It still bothers me to this day.

[Jim Spellman]

How do you. Do you feel like it affects you with your neighbors in your life?

[John Tanko]

I haven't talked to them. Talk to us, to nobody, you know, I mean if you google my name they should find out. Yeah, that's shocks too. That's only shocks.

[Jim Spellman]

Let me ask you this, how, how do you want, like what do you want my viewers, my audience to know about you in this case and the things that are being said about you?

[John Tanko]

I don't have any involvement whatsoever.

[Jim Spellman]

Never touched that baby. Never saw that baby, Never saw it. Well, thank you for talking to, to us. I appreciate it if you could tell.

[John Tanko]

I'm being honest with you because honesty is the best policy.

[Jim Spellman]

Look, I know you don't, I know you don't talk a lot so I appreciate you letting me come on here and ask these questions. This home me, I'm sure, I'm sure.

[John Tanko]

Not that that I'm feeling guilty about anything but just the fact That I. Sure. I'm being. Being put involved in something that I'm not involved in.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay. All the best to you.

[John Tanko]

Thank you.

[Jim Spellman]

Say.

[John Tanko]

Well, I hope you guys don't kick too much on me.

[Jim Spellman]

Well, we're going to tell a story, and we're going to tell. I'm going to tell them what you told me. They'll hear from you. Okay.

[John Tanko]

Thank you.

[Jim Spellman]

All right.

[Bill Stanton]

You have a good day.

[Jim Spellman]

Well, that was interesting.

[Phil Houston]

Wow. Now I gotta eat my chew.

[Jim Spellman]

Oh, my God.

[Megyn Kelly]

Start with the tongue. Bill Stanton. That's what I recommend. Start there. Ah, he's got it.

[Jim Spellman]

Delicious. Okay.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's so good to have you guys here in this setting. I'm so. I've been looking forward to this from the moment we walked off property there. Bill. And I'm just. So the audience knows, I have not spoken with Phil or Bill at all about this since it. Since the day off. I haven't spoken to Phil at all. So I have no idea what he thought of the whole exchange. And yet we spent so much time preparing for it. So this is exciting. Bill. We walked out of there. We got into the van and really could not believe it. Like, I think you and I were both like, oh, my God.

[Jim Spellman]

Oh, my God.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, my God. You know? And then I asked him if he would sit down with our cameras. He said no, but. Talk about your impressions. Bill.

[Phil Houston]

There was so much going on in my head for your safety and our safety. And then when he started talking and he was so relaxed. So this man, what I felt he was doing, was trying to sell us. And you weren't having any of it.

[Jim Spellman]

Mm.

[Megyn Kelly]

I couldn't believe how. How much he talked. I really thought at any second, we're gonna get kicked out of here.

[Phil Houston]

The fact that we were there that long is phenomenal to me. That was my least likely scenario to happen.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then. Phil, you're the human lie detector. What did you think?

[Bill Stanton]

Megan? I thought that your interview with him was great. It elicited a lot of deceptive behavior. The overarching mistakes that he made primarily were his failure to deny definitively.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm thrilled to hear you say deception detected, because that's what I thought. I walked out of there, and I was like, I've got more doubts about this guy than ever. But our whole team did not feel that way. And I just thought there were my own baby Phil. Lie detector abilities. Right. Just because I've followed you for so long. Were going off like crazy. I thought there were many indic indications of deception. He had too many Explanations. And I remember asking you about Megan Wright, what would a truth teller sound like? And you said, I can't tell you that exactly, but there would have been a whole lot more. I didn't do it, you know, I didn't do it. So let's, let's play the first exchange that we had with Jersey where he brings up the death penalty, which, you know, Bill and I were both like, whoa, what? Huh? Let's watch that.

[Jim Spellman]

I was wondering if you would talk to me.

[John Tanko]

I'd rather not because my lawyer told me not to talk to anybody. It's a, it could be a death penalty case and I don't want to have to sit in prison for five years, you know.

[Jim Spellman]

You know, the thing is, you ask.

[Bill Stanton]

Him a very difficult question, but in a very low key manner, and one of the reasons that he talked to you so much, I believe, is that you didn't give him a reason to dislike you. And he let his guard down some. And in doing so he gave some lengthy, lengthier responses than, than he needed to. And that's where the deceptive behavior began to come to fold in, in that in this particular case, he, you know, he said, I don't have any involvement. And he used the present tense. I don't have any involvement. That was his, his messaging all throughout all of this. But in reality, the truthful person is going on the crime itself and say, I didn't have any involvement in what happened that night. And it's the equivalent of saying, you know, where the truthful person says I didn't do it versus the deceptive person says I wouldn't do it. He's trying to impress the latter message on you, but it's clearly, clearly deceptive when also when he said, that's what I'm saying, I didn't have any involvement or I don't have any involvement. That's what I'm saying. That doesn't mean that's what, that isn't what it is, so to speak. In other words, he's not saying I wasn't involved. This is just what I'm saying at this particular point. So that one was a real key right off the bat that there's probably more lies to follow.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, we did accurately predict that his first instinct would be to say, the lawyers aren't going to let me talk. You know, didn't foresee the death penalty line, but he did try that. And thankfully, thanks to your guidance, Phil, we shut it down, got him off of that sticky place. And then I launched with the First, Phil Houston question and wondering if you.

[Jim Spellman]

Can tell us what your involvement was in the disappearance of baby Lisa.

[John Tanko]

That's where I'm sitting. Saying, none whatsoever. The FBI vacuumed out of the house with my DNA. You have a million skin cells go like that. They're going to bag it up and they're going to, they're going to DNA it to me and I'd be charged.

[Bill Stanton]

No doubt about it in there. The deceptive behavior that really stood out was his immediate aggression against the FBI. And the truthful person wouldn't be thinking answering truthfully is going to land me in prison for five years, you know, or just because this is a death penalty case.

[Megyn Kelly]

Oh, okay, I got it. So you, it's. Whenever you say the truthful person would have said it this way, that helps because you do think about yourself. Wrongfully accused of being involved in something as awful as this. What involvement do. Did you have? Yeah, you'd say none.

[Phil Houston]

And Megan, think about it. He's saying they would find my DNA at the location. I mean, why would his DNA be at the location? They've never seen him there before. He's never said he was there before.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well, but, but then he seemed billed to be trying to say they would have found my DNA if I'd been involved. They would found that DNA because I was like, what? Right. I would, I thought he was saying the same thing. Then he seemed to try to clarify if I were guilty, my. The evidence of me having been there would have been all over the place.

[Phil Houston]

Well, maybe, maybe it would have been found if, you know, half of Kansas City and mainstream media wasn't in and out.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yes, okay, but, but back to Phil's point, I think Phil, I mean, I don't, I don't want to put the words in your mouth, but I feel like what you usually say in this circumstance, Phil, is the truthful person doesn't engage in convincing behavior. They don't need to say they would have found my DNA. They would have found my fingerprints. They're just kind of like, I didn't do it. I don't, I don't have to convince Megan Kelly otherwise.

[Bill Stanton]

Yeah, he's using the, the convincing statements. And then you look at how he's standing on the ladder. He's trying to look very nonchalant up there. But in fact, he's very threatened by you and very intimidated internally by the questions you're asking Megan. But he doesn't really. You didn't give him an opening to, you know, criticize or accuse you or Attack you. And that made it very, very difficult for him.

[Megyn Kelly]

Why. Why was he up on the ladder? Because the audience, the viewing audience will see, the listening audience needs to be told he didn't need to be up there. His work, of course, was paused while he was talking to me and to Bill, and he easily could have stepped down and come over to us or been face to face. So what did you make of his. His choice to stay elevated and, you know, on the ladder, if you recall.

[Bill Stanton]

He was standing up in a straighter posture when you got there. He wasn't leaning on the ladder in that manner. And when you guys walked up, then he immediately leaned over and he hunched down. He was intimidated. He doesn't know who you are. He doesn't know what your intentions are. So he's a little scared. And so that Anchor point movement that we saw represented a spike in his anxiety. And he sit tight and just look like he's not threatened. And that's the thing you'll see in prison a lot. You know, the key is, is people have to look and act as if they're not threatened by anything or anyone. Them. And he's given his prison time. He's pretty good at that.

[Megyn Kelly]

The ladder is not only elevating him, but it's a barrier between him and me. There is that sort of defensive thing of it's in front of me. I've got my arms around it. I'm safer behind this ladder. And we'll definitely get into. Why did he talk? Because that was our big debate before Bill and I went, is he going to. But I've got to get to the phones before we do that. So that was the one thing we discussed beforehand.

[Jim Spellman]

If, If.

[Megyn Kelly]

If he would admit to us what he told Cindy Short, that he found allegedly the three phones on the night Baby Lisa went missing. That. That would be a tantamount to an admission. Well, here's how that went in part.

[Jim Spellman]

Now, did you have those phones? Because we. We understand that you told a lawyer, Cindy Short, that you found those phones.

[John Tanko]

I'm future. Whatever. She wanted me here. I didn't tell her I found those phones. I said I found phones that night, but I didn't find it.

[Jim Spellman]

No. Nothing. Oh, why?

[John Tanko]

It's because she's asked me a million questions and I didn't want to make her happy. Whatever.

[Megyn Kelly]

So the listening audience knows. One of the things he did there, Phil, which you've called attention to in the past, it can be part of a. A cluster of deception, is hands above the midline. He Started to move his hands up like, oh, she did this, she did this. And you've told me in the past, and I know from your books by the lie, which everyone should read. When you're lying, the nervous energy has to shoot out of you somehow, whether it's your leg crossed and foot clicking or you start to rock. But hands above the midline, touching your nose, touching your head, moving around can be part of a deception cluster. So what did you make of the phone's answer?

[Bill Stanton]

Exactly where you were going? Megan? Again, it represents a very significant spike in his anxiety level here. And it's interesting. Why on earth would someone who's telling the truth need to admit that while they weren't didn't say they had taken the phones that were missing, but they found other phones on that that particular night by coincidence, so to speak? Who in their right mind would do that if you're telling the truth? Because. And what he recognizes is that by saying that he even had phone, that he did find phones that night is almost as equally incriminating as the fact that the phones he had, the phones that were missing. It's clearly one in the same. So that's what led him to say, in my opinion, what led him to say, oh, I was just lying to her at that particular time.

[Megyn Kelly]

I was surprised that immediately he knew who Cindy Short was and he knew about the phone conversation. He didn't stutter. Like, what? Huh? Nonsense.

[Phil Houston]

If you think about it for that one moment, let's postulate that he is guilty. Let's assume. Let's just for argument's sake, say he's guilty. Every breath, every moment is burned in his brain, right? And to me, this question of the phones is one of the most pivotal points made, because if he found that phone, right, if he had the phone, that tells us he was in the house. I mean, it tells me he was in the house and he called Megan Wright and that's why he was going back and forth. Is it advantageous for me to say I found the phones, or, oh, no, I was just lying?

[Megyn Kelly]

He figured out to say he has the phones suggests he had the baby and he knew we. He didn't want us going there. But. But this, like Phil, this was the most obvious lie, I would say, even to the casual observer without the Phil Houston training, because why would a guy sitting in jail talking to a lawyer make up a lie about having phones when he didn't have phones, quote, to make her happy?

[Bill Stanton]

I think one of the reasons he might have been doing that as well Is that between that night and today or the day that you're interviewing him, he has probably told someone, one or two people, that he did find phones that night and then realized that when you ask him the question, and, oh, I need to come up with a reason as to why I had phones. Or maybe someone saw him with phones.

[Phil Houston]

That night and that Megan Wright was dialed. Megan Wright's number was dialed. He had to make it. In my opinion, he had to make a story. Oh, I found the phones. And then he realized it's not his best interest to say he had, oh, I didn't have the phones.

[Bill Stanton]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Megyn Kelly]

That was his weakest part. Because there were other moments where I thought, okay, you know what? He's. He's doing better here. And one of those moments was when he tried to say he and Megan Wright broke up and he never saw her. And I said, you didn't. You didn't stalk her at all, or however I phrased it, you know, you didn't show up at her house. And he owned that one right away.

[John Tanko]

I pulled up on the front lawn in the stolen grand one time, but I didn't talk to her.

[Megyn Kelly]

So what was your reaction to that? Fell. Because he could have said, no, I never did. But he kind of owned her story of driving the truck onto her property and scaring her a little, I think.

[Bill Stanton]

Megan, what he's trying to do there, going back to the concept of convincing statements or persuasion behavior, what he's trying to do is he's trying to say, hey, if I did something wrong, I'm more than willing to step up and admit it. And often that convinces people who aren't really attuned to the behavior and the reality of the situation, and they buy into it. And that's what he's hoping would happen here.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'll tell you what. Doug Brunt, my husband, he watched this whole thing, and he had one big takeaway. Having watched Jersey, he said, you know who he reminds me of? He said, he reminds me of this guy. Exactly. Frank Pantangeli from the Godfather, when he testified before Congress on whether Michael Corleone was in fact a the Godfather and a member of the crime family. And he had now had a change of heart before the.

[Bill Stanton]

Here.

[Megyn Kelly]

Here it is.

[John Tanko]

Watch.

[Megyn Kelly]

Tell me if this looks like Jersey.

[Phil Houston]

I don't know nothing about that.

[NETCredit]

Do you deny that confession? And do you realize what will happen as a result of your denial?

[John Tanko]

Look, the FBI guys, they promised me a deal, so I. So I made up a lot of stuff about my Michael Corleone, because that's what they wanted.

[Megyn Kelly]

But, but it was all lies.

[Bill Stanton]

It's the same sequencing of deceptive behavior that we, we just saw. Almost identical to what we just saw with, with Tanko.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's amazing. Okay, so what's your takeaway now? Having watched it, Phil, like the, when it wrapped up, having watched the, you know, 25 minutes, what did you walk away saying? There are signs of deception and there's.

[Bill Stanton]

No, there's little doubt in my mind, in my opinion, that he is directly involved, if not unilaterally, the person that took the baby. That's strong, not just from this interview, but it's, it's from the history of the evolution of the case and the things that we learned about him over the years and in the connections to others and the evidence that we heard about his activities that night. All of that collectively suggests in my mind that this is our guy.

[Megyn Kelly]

So why did he talk to me, Phil? That was our big debate. That's why Bill had to eat his shoe, because he said he's not going to talk. And you said he'll talk. It happens. And sure enough, he did talk. And you know, the audience knows because they went through this with us. But like, he hasn't talked in all this time. You know, as you know, I always go by my own daughter. She's about to turn 13. That whole time he's kept quiet. He's never made a public statement. He's never even been caught on camera in any meaningful way. So why did he talk?

[Bill Stanton]

As I said before, Megan, you approached him in a non threatening manner. It's very counterintuitive in these situations. In fact, when we train law enforcement, one of the hardest habits to break is taking that immediate intimidation or intimidating posture and, and voice and, and accusations and so forth. You did none of that. You came up in a very polite manner, very professional manner and you said, listen, we'd like to talk to you as if you were, you know, giving him the option. Now he didn't know you weren't really going to give him the option, that you would probably continue, you know, to ask questions and so forth. But, but he, he was willing at that point to say, okay, let me see where this goes. Right now, I'm up here on this ladder, I'm in a safe place, so what's the harm? And maybe I can gain some ground in the meantime. And because of the, what you asked him and how you asked them, it, it allowed you to gain ground. And he wasn't realizing that he had let his guard down, and he's now talking to you in narratives. Instead of one word answers or refusing to answer or whatever he's thinking, okay, maybe I can, you know, pull off a fast one, you know, with this lady.

[Phil Houston]

And in retrospect, when you think about it, guys, we were literally in his backyard. He had the high ground. He felt safe. We were in his territory in his yard while he was up. He felt he was in control.

[Megyn Kelly]

That's a good point. It was kind of ironic that he ended the exchange with honesty is the best policy. Honesty is the best policy. Like touting his own honesty, which is another tell Phil, is it not.

[Bill Stanton]

Oh, absolutely. It's. It's one of the most used, convincing statements there is. And. But the timing of when he did it was quite interesting to me. It was interesting because it suggests that he felt he played a good role here, that he really accomplished something in the manner in which he answered your questions. He was, he was kind of, you know, being a peacock here and saying, hey, you know, I've been very honest with you. And in reality, he knows he's been anything but that.

[Megyn Kelly]

And then he followed it up with, this thing has been effing my head up, but I'm not guilty of anything, but it's been. Which. What did you make of that statement?

[Bill Stanton]

It's. It's, again, truth in the lie, as many of these other statements that he made. He's saying something he's telling that's truthful. It did mess up his head. But in, in, in reality, a truthful person, that's not going to happen. In other words, if they'd have gone, truthful person 10 years later or 13 years later is not going to be terrified and fear that they're going to go to jail or they're going to get the death penalty, whatever the case may be. Yet these are all these things that he's saying, and it's. These are the things that are worrying him. And so I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a day that goes by that he thinks about that night.

[Megyn Kelly]

What did you make of Phil when he said. I said, why would somebody. Do you think it happened spur of the moment? Do you think it was planned out and he didn't bite there at all. He's like, I don't know. And then I rounded back again, and he said, I don't know. And then he's like, you already asked me this. You know, He.

[Jim Spellman]

He did.

[Megyn Kelly]

He was pretty firm on that one. Like, I don't know. And stop asking me that. That I thought was a point in his favor.

[Bill Stanton]

Remember what we said earlier, how he said, I don't have any involvement? That is his agenda in his mind. And so when you ask him a question that is similar to that now, he's already got the answer framed out. And that's why it looks and sounds, you know, more truthful. Give you another example of that. At one point, you ask him, I think about fingerprints or whatever on the phone, and he gave what on the surface would appear to be a truthful answer.

[Jim Spellman]

Why would your fingerprints be on those phones? I don't know.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm.

[Jim Spellman]

I'm just trying to figure it out.

[John Tanko]

Okay, well, you're not. You're telling me this is fact that my kid gets rich on the phone. But I don't believe. Because I. I don't. I don't believe I ever possessed a phone.

[Bill Stanton]

I suspect his. By the end of the night, his fingerprints were no longer on that phone. I. And he knows that, and he's. He's wiped them off. And so that's something that he can say, you know, truthfully.

[Megyn Kelly]

Yeah, with confidence. Right. He challenged whether his fingerprints were on the phone. And the other thing he challenged with confidence was this.

[Jim Spellman]

Why would a neighbor say they saw you in that area?

[John Tanko]

I don't know. It's the third time he asked me.

[Jim Spellman]

Okay, sorry, I'm gonna lose my own.

[John Tanko]

I don't know. People lie. I don't know.

[Jim Spellman]

Yeah, right now I'm in the area.

[John Tanko]

I'm not first decided it was one of their hotels.

[Jim Spellman]

Well, I'm asking you beyond because, you know, there. There's the one set of neighbors that say they saw somebody who matches your description. They didn't say you with a baby. That. That night, like around midnight. Do you remember that?

[John Tanko]

I heard that there was a witness that seen somebody carrying. I didn't get all that about fits my description.

[Megyn Kelly]

So he did know. He knew facts about this investigation in a way that I thought was pretty telling as well.

[Bill Stanton]

But that was a. That was a great example of deception. He didn't say, I wasn't there.

[Jim Spellman]

Oh, I'm.

[Megyn Kelly]

I failed to see the forest through the trees on that one. Oh, again. So that's the Phil Houston twist. The truth teller would. Would have said I wasn't there. So she definitely did not see me.

[Bill Stanton]

That's. That's the fact. That is the best ally for the truthful person. Tell the truth. And in his case, he can't. The truth has consequences associated with it, and that's what makes it difficult for him now? The advantage he has a little bit is he's been asked a lot of these questions over the years, and so he has some frame of reference. But what was different this time is somebody's talking to him in a, almost a kind way. You weren't judgmental of him, and that was really important.

[Megyn Kelly]

So having watched Megan Wright and John Tanko talk about their relationship and their time together, what takeaways.

[Bill Stanton]

If you assume for a moment that our assessment of John Tanko is correct and then you look at what Megan is saying about him, she clearly is trying to distance herself from him. It, it appears likely, so much so that it appears likely to me that she knows what he's been up to and likely she knows what happened that night. And as a result, she doesn't want to go down. If he, if he is, you know, if Tanko is final arrested, you know, uncovered or identified as the perpetrator and is, is arrested, then she would then become a co conspirator and, and she realizes that. So she's trying to leave the impression in everyone's mind that she has nothing to do with them. She, she and, and you know, long before, you know, the baby went missing, she had nothing to do with them. And she's trying to create that image.

[Megyn Kelly]

That was by design.

[Bill Stanton]

Well, when you asked Tanko any questions about Megan. Right. He becomes very protective of her, immediately says, no, she's not involved, and, and exonerates her. And I believe he's doing that because he knows that she knows and knows what she knows. And as a result, he has no choice but to defend her.

[Megyn Kelly]

Be interesting.

She wasn't sounding that way about him, however, like I don't know what he's capable of was more her line.

[Bill Stanton]

Yeah, yeah. He has no choice but to defend her. She has other options. She isn't the person that actually did.

[Megyn Kelly]

It's so interesting, Phil, fascinating talking to you. Okay, now we're going to bring in Jim Spellman. Very excited to have Jim Spelman with us, reporter of CNN at the time this story broke, now independent. And Jim, you've been watching this whole thing. You've been watching the series, you've been working with us on this. What did you make of this exchange with John Tanko?

[NETCredit]

Well, first off, I want to echo the kudos to you, Bill, and your crew for, for getting this and going in there. That was not easy and it definitely took guts and courage to do it. Well done. This struck me as somebody, remember, he didn't know you were recording him who's scared that the next visitor is going to have a badge on them right after them. And he was working whatever he could to try to find out what you might know and then to feed back something that's going to make him look good. I mentioned this earlier in a previous interview, Megan, but I'm, I'm in recovery. I, I used crystal meth, smoked crack cocaine, et cetera. 23 years. I've been clean last year. And I work on a near daily basis with addicts in recovery. And there's a kind of person who does nothing but lie. Even when there's no reason to lie, they lie. You ask him what color a blue car is, they'll say red. And this strikes me like that kind of person who just immediately is on the hustle, immediately is trying to weave something that's going to help him come out better at the end of the day. And you know, with the phones, with the phone question, this really is maybe focus on the investigation back in Kansas City and by the FBI and why at this point they have not told us why they moved on from John Tanko, why they have not revealed all of the details about the phone. And I think when this show comes out, it will be negligent if the chief of police there, Stacey Graves, doesn't immediately appoint a new detective that was not involved to make this a high profile cold case. Release whatever information they can that doesn't jeopardize an investigation and bring this into the public eye again. And I would include men, fences with the family. I don't know who was responsible for that division, but it wasn't Lisa and she deserves better than that. And this investigation should be immediately reopened in a vigorous way.

[Megyn Kelly]

Well said. I couldn't agree with what you just said more. And that's really our goal is to have somebody just take a fresh look at the case, Fresh eyes, new eyes, take a look at the case. He told us for the first time there that he had not been cleared by law enforcement. That was an interesting admission. I think he didn't know that I believed he had been cleared. Otherwise maybe he would have just gone with that. But it's because I asked it in an open ended way, like, were you cleared? And he said no. No one ever told me that. I thought that was very interesting.

[NETCredit]

And the police in Kansas City and the FBI on occasion told me they used the language. They had moved on right from John. Tanker never, of course, being absolute about it, but I think it's clear they have because look where he is, you know, and I mean, none of these people have faced any kind of serious, you know, investigation that they know after those initial weeks and months, lives have just gone on, people's lives have gone on while the family and Lisa's are, are in suspended animation.

[Megyn Kelly]

You know, why else, Jim, would there be a 10 year gap between the last time the Kansas City police called Jeremy or Deborah and today?

[NETCredit]

It's inexcusable. No matter what they did or what the, the police did, somebody's got to get over this, right? And I think as part of reopening the case, the Kansas City police need to deal with the media, take their lumps and get this case, you know, back out there. No one's going to come off looking great if they reopen this in a sort of more high profile way. But what other way is there to jog memories, to convince the community there in Kansas City that their children are being cared for, that they matter, than to start getting some of this stuff out there? One of the things I was really surprised to hear Deborah say was that they had taken hair from them to test for, for drugs. So if they, if that's true and it was negative, then why would the police not release that at this point? Why not put out whatever can be put out there that can close down avenues that people are discussing and maybe just somehow jog some other memory of somebody, you know, that may know somebody who knows somebody. Maybe it's not Tanko, but someone who is tangential to Tanko, Maybe not somebody who was in the house, but someone that was near and around the house that day. Somebody knows something. There has to be a nexus to this house to know there's a baby there, to know that Jeremy's working that night. Something has to happen to change this. It's just unacceptable that it's up to people like you and people like Bill to be on this guy's lawn and not a much larger investigation.

[Megyn Kelly]

And you know, what's really chilling is here we are all these years later, they've never found remains of any kind. And, you know, if this were a murder, an intentional murder, an accidental death, let's face it, the whoever did it, of the characters we're talking about, you wouldn't think that these are, you know, sophisticated criminals who actually managed to avoid the police detection and then got rid of the body in a way that very few criminals are able to, or it never got dug up by a dog, never came up. If it had been put in the water, you know, like we saw With Lacy Peterson, like, this is the one criminal who managed in just that short window of time to conduct. Conduct the perfect crime. No, no DNA, no fingerprints, no proof of any kind, disposed of the body in the way that it never came back. So there is a real possibility, if you look at that, that she wasn't killed. We haven't really talked about it that much, but that she really wasn't killed.

And that she was either sold or.

Given to somebody or showed up on the doorstep of a firehouse in some other town, that would make some more sense given the absence of a body.

[NETCredit]

And remember the investigation in those early days and weeks, the amount of searches of woods in that area when, when the address came up, the area, the intersection that Cindy Short says he's. He reported that the phone grabbed. I immediately put that into Google and looked at images. One of the very first live shots I did when I. That the first weekend of this case was a big search right there that included the National Guard and the FBI of that. Of that area and all of those similar areas that kind of are, you know, around this neighborhood that have open woods or something were heavily searched in that kind of search that would find any type of remains or something. So I think that it's extremely unlikely that, you know, out in public in the woods or anything that, you know, there were any remains to be found within. Within a mile or two radius of the house.

[Megyn Kelly]

You're amazing. Thank you so much for the great work you've done on this. You've been a highlight of every episode. It's been a pleasure.

[Phil Houston]

And Jim, that. Jim, thank you. And you know, sharing that, you know, once an addict, you're shown that it can be overcome and it is debilitating, and you overcame it and you just add that much more character to everything you do. Thank you.

[NETCredit]

Thanks, Bill.

[Bill Stanton]

Yes, indeed. Jim, thanks a ton. It's a pleasure to meet you.

[Megyn Kelly]

And that's the conclusion for now of our Megyn Kelly Investigates series. But it's not the end. So we would love to hear from you and from your questions and feedback, we will put together an episode six. Remember, we did this with the Idaho murders, and it worked out really well. And then we will bring you that episode in a couple of weeks. What do you think happened? What's your theory? What do you find persuasive? Who did you believe? Who did you not? And do you have any actual leads, especially if you live in the Kansas City area or even if you don't, you might know one of the players. You might know something you want to share with us? Please send your thoughts to me. It's Megan M E G y [e-mail] we will be reviewing all of your emails just as we always do and I thank you sincerely for joining us along this journey. We'll see you soon. If you're watching right now, please take a look at this picture of Lisa as she might look now. If you're listening, you can see the photo on YouTube or just go to MeganKelly.com if you see her or think you might have any information that can help find her, please write to me. The address is Megan M E G Y [e-mail] youm can also pass along tips on the baby, release a story to the Kansas City Police Department or encourage them to get active on this case. That would be very helpful. Reach out at kccrimestoppers.com kccrimestoppers.com or call them at 816-474TIPS TIPS. That's 816-474-84747 there has never been a better time to take control of your health and it all starts in the gut. Processed foods, stress at work, fluoride in the water, even toxins in the air you breathe can overwhelm your digestive system. Our bodies are literally being attacked on a daily basis. So what can we do to fight back? I want to tell you about Just Thrive Probiotic, a probiotic and antioxidant comprised of science backed strains to keep the gut healthy and balanced. Did you know that most probiotics on the market die in your stomach acid? Just thrive survives 100%. That means better digestion, healthy immunity, more energy and easy weight management. It comes in a capsule or berry flavored gummy so there's an option for everyone in the family. For over a decade Just Thrive has been fighting to help make Americans healthier with science backed solutions you can trust. To join the gut health revolution and take control of your health today, visit justthrivehealth.com justthrive health.com and save 20% sitewide with promo code Megan. That's justthrive health.com, promo code M E G Y N Parents Too many kids today are not learning the real history of America. Schools are pushing revisionist narratives or skipping over key ideas altogether. That's why the Tuttle Twins America's history books are so important. These story based books bring our history to life, the good, the bad and the inspirational so your kids can understand not only the truth about our founders and the Constitution, but also the ideas and values that made this country great. Give your children the education they deserve. Don't wait. Go to tuttletwins.comhistory right now and grab your set of America's history books. If we don't teach the next generation what really happened, no one will. Visit Tuttle T U T T L E Twins.com history today.

[HelloFresh]

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[John Tanko]

You.

[HelloFresh]

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[Phil Houston]

To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines.

[John Tanko]

We were made for this.